CD127: NAVALNY, RUSSIA, AND BITCOIN WITH ANNA CHEKHOVICH

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Created: 4/24/2024 7:22:38 PM
Duration: 5136.96
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Your

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your anxiety, if you have it, about inflation

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versus employment, where would it be? And I say that because we're just talking before with Joe Livornyan.

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I've been, monitoring a lot of the Jason Furman comments even over past week, and he made one, which was that he thinks that if in fact the Fed were to lower interest rates,

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in this calendar year,

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that it would be a function of a weak employment

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situation,

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not necessarily,

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the inflation picture?

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So it's a good point, and I I think this is the tension right now for policymakers.

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They have to weigh the risk

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around,

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loosening this policy too soon

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or keeping it too tight

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and risking employment. And, of course, as you know, they have a dual mandate. They care about both of these things very much.

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But the one they control most directly is gonna be that inflation number, and they must

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gain their confidence to get back to 2%

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in a fairly timely way

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if they're gonna retain credibility and keep inflation expectations

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anchored around that 2% When you say timely way, you're not in the camp that says, you know what?

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They've they've gotten through the hard part. They can get to 2% eventually, and they can take their time to do it. You think that there's actually an urgency to it?

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I think there's always an urgency to it, Andrea, and that doesn't mean,

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that you have to double down and get there tomorrow.

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But I do think as they look at their forecast, and this has always been true,

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they are they have allowed inflation to drift down, and it's it's done that.

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But as they look to see their confidence in that 2%,

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those forecasts have been pushing out. And so far, I think with inflation expectations anchored,

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that has been appropriate.

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What I'd be watching for is and I think the committee is too. They don't wanna see those expectations

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change. That's what allows them to be patient.

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That's what allows them to take their time to look at the data right now.

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Happy bitcoin Wednesday freaks. It's your host Odell here for another Citadel dispatch

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The interactive

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live show focused on actionable bitcoin and freedom tech discussion.

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That intro clip,

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was CNBC

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still in denial about inflation.

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We'll see how the suits decide to handle

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our economic matters going forward, but I think, that clip will probably age quite poorly.

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We're here today to talk about something completely different than the clip in classic dispatch fashion.

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I have my good friend Anna here. Anna has done a a lot of work with the Anti Corruption

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Foundation. She's the financial director or the CFO over there,

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depending on how you wanna call it. And she recently joined, the Human Rights Foundation.

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How's it going, Anna?

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Hi, Matt. Thank you for inviting me.

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Everything is just great. Thank you for,

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having me here because, you know, it's not very often when

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activists using Bitcoin have an an opportunity to speak,

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for the big audience. I think it's very important

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to highlight our use cases.

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And, yeah, you're right. I work for the Anti Corruption Foundation. It's been already 7 years.

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And, around 1 months ago, I joined,

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Human Rights Foundation as well,

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where I work as nonprofit Bitcoin adoption lead, because I have a lot of experience

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of, non profit, at the, Anti Corruption Foundation

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of using Bitcoin in our work.

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And now I'm very excited about sharing

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my experience

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with those

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non profits, freedom fighters, activists,

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human rights defenders all over the world

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to to help them

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implement Bitcoin in their work.

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Awesome.

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Yeah. I've had the the privilege of knowing you for quite some years now.

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I think,

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and and

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I I think a great place to start would be, what is the Anticorruption

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Foundation,

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and when did you guys start using Bitcoin in your operations?

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The Anti Corruption Foundation

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is a Russian organization.

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It was, created

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by the leader of Russian opposition, Alexei Navalny, in Moscow

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back in 2011.

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And, it's the main opposition power of the country

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and we've been fighting against Putin for many many years already. We fight against Putin, against his regime, against their corruption,

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against all the crimes

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they do

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for more than

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24 years already.

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It's almost 25 years already. Yeah. So

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our goal is to make Russia a free democratic country, and we have

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many, many opposition projects,

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related to this big goal

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of defeating,

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finally, Putin's regime.

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And I personally joined the Anti Corruption Foundation

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in 2017,

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but,

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we started using Bitcoin in our work in 2016th

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before I joined the organization,

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and, it's been a long

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way already. And we,

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began using Bitcoin,

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while working in Russia

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because,

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Russian banking system is fully controlled by the government, is fully transparent to the regime,

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and Russian government very quickly realized that,

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they can use the banking system as a tool of oppression against us.

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And, they used it against us so many times.

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While we were working in Russia, they constantly

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were blocking our bank accounts, bank accounts of our organizations,

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bank accounts of our employees. My

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personal bank account is arrested.

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Bank accounts of Alexei Navalny and his family members were arrested.

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So the government realizes that when they deprive us of access to

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money to our bank accounts,

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they basically deprive us of oxygen because we cannot keep operating. We cannot pay salaries. We cannot pay rent. We cannot pay cleaning services or literally anything.

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And, when we had a presidential campaign in 2018

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when Alexei Navalny decided to run for president of Russia,

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and we had a crowdfunding campaign.

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It was very hard to main maintain our network because we had more than 300 employees, more than 40 offices. We had to

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cover financially all of those. And

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every time when they blocked our bank account on the basis of a new fabricated criminal case every time,

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we always had a question, like, how are we gonna pay for everything? What we're gonna do? And

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in 2016th,

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we realized already at that time

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that we better have a plan b, and we better keep our savings somewhere else. That is why we started using Bitcoin back then. And also because there were some donors who wanted to donate to us secretly, privately,

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because it was clear that if you go against Putin,

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if you support those organizations that go against Putin, you can be in danger.

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And this is actually what happens.

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In 2021,

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we were labeled as an extremist organization on the territory of Russia,

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and we were forced to leave the country. And all of our donors

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who were donating to us for many years,

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now they're all at risk due

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to banks sharing their personal data with the government.

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So they basically

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provide all the information about all transactions to the government, and now all of those fiat donors

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are vulnerable for donating to us. And today, if you donate to so called extremist organization, if you donate with Fiat, if they catch you, and, of course, they will catch you because the banking system is transparent,

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You simply go to jail up to 8 years for donating to such an organization.

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So, yeah, we,

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we started using Bitcoin long ago and many times that literally saved our lives. Every time we lost when we lost access to our bank accounts,

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we could always use Bitcoin. We could always continue operating thanks to Bitcoin.

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So, I mean, this all makes a lot of sense to me.

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This is

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it it's there's 2 sides here. Right? There is there is the side of,

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and in both cases, it's about the financial system being weaponized

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on people,

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weaponized against people. And on one side, it's it's an organization like your own trying to operate, and it requires money to operate. And,

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having funds seized, having funds blocked,

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obviously

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makes that incredibly difficult, and Bitcoin provides a solution there.

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And then there is the opposite side of the equation where donors

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are are put at risk, if they donate through

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a surveilled,

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financial network.

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To the point where, I I mean, you mentioned they could get jail time,

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but also they could get, you know,

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less obvious,

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punishment measures, against their family, against their business interests.

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You know, quite frankly, I we we saw on the in the Western Hemisphere, we saw with the Canadian Truckers,

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which was an opposition movement,

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led by truckers in Canada,

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that people that donated to the to the to those protesters were put on lists. And, like, so then the question is afterwards is, like, okay. What what does it mean to be on the list? And that's always a little bit more vague, and you you don't necessarily know exactly

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what what the repercussions are, but it's usually not a good thing.

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I will say,

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and we're gonna dive deep here particularly on the Bitcoin side of things because I think it's fascinating that you guys,

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understood the need for Bitcoin and and and used it incredibly early on.

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Bitcoin is obviously not without its faults.

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And I think there was a case I mean, you mentioned that banks were giving up donor information.

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I think back in 2021,

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Binance also gave,

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donation information to people who donated to,

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Bitcoin addresses or or Altcoin addresses,

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to the opposition as well. This is not something that is necessarily

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isolate unfortunately isolated to the traditional financial system. We're also seeing large Bitcoin exchanges,

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comply with these type of measures.

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Yeah. You're right. So it's a big problem. And actually, I don't know very well what exactly happened

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back then with Binance,

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but I never recommend anyone using this kind of platforms, and especially Binance, because they kept playing some weird games and they kept saying

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that they don't collude with Russian regime and then they started, like, kicking out Russian users,

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then they onboarded them again, then they,

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kicked everyone out again. And

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in the end, they,

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told all of Russian users

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to,

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switch from Binance to other platform.

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And many of Russian users who really didn't know what platform,

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like, what is the new platform they were offering, they switched to that one. But I made some research and I found out that the new platform

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for Russian users of Binance, the new platform is registered

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in Russia. Probably they had servers in Russia. And they just recommend everyone to switch to that one. And it means that all the personal data that Russian users,

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kept at the Binance platform, all this personal data is gonna be transferred to some

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random platform that is registered on the territory of Russia, which means that all their data can easily leak to the Russian government finally anyway,

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and all the information about their transactions can leak. So my point is that I never recommend using

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this kind of centralized KYC platforms.

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It's, like, the worst choice for Russian users today,

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especially if they use it to support organizations like us. Today, we work in exile. Today, we're we are located in Lithuania in Europe.

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And our organization is a non profit organization. We live we like, we donations is our main source of income,

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and donations from Russians is our main source of income because our target audience is Russian Russians.

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And,

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we encourage everyone to donate to us, but the only option to donate safely to us is with Bitcoin. We rely on Bitcoin a lot,

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but at the same time, if we don't educate our donors how to use Bitcoin properly, what tools are the safest,

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Anyway, they of course, they are at risk. If they use wrong platform, if they provide their personal data to wrong platform,

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if they leak their data anywhere,

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it can cause big problems for supporting,

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an extremist organization.

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So,

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it's a it's a big challenge for us, because there are, like, thousands 100 of thousands of donors

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and

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we really need their support, but at the same time we have to teach them how to do it properly.

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And

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a couple of years ago, we started thinking about it, like, how can we make the nations from Russia safer.

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And

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we implemented a special tool on our website. If you go to the website to the the donate page,

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you will see that there is a special button

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that generates a new Bitcoin address every single time for each donation for each donor.

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So,

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the we after that, we mix the coins.

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So it is way harder or even not possible for the Russian government to track the donor.

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And,

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yeah, it's it's very important to do that. And the problem is that it's not only us. There are 100

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of organizations like us who leave who left the country, who now work in exile. And the majority

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don't know that there are these options, that there are such tools

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that can be used to provide safety for the donors. And I think that it is very, very important to educate not only donors, but all those organizations.

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So we protect

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those who support us from Russia.

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Yes. I mean, so you mentioned,

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there's a lot to unpack there.

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You mentioned,

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this idea of

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of the fixed address.

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For a while, you guys were using

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I guess I guess to pull it back even further,

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this is something that our audience here at dispatch is intimately aware of,

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this

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this fact that Bitcoin is not private by default.

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Bitcoin actually, if you use it,

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naively, if you if you use it without thinking,

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can be relatively easily tracked and traced. And I I think I recall our original conversation that when I first met you,

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which might have been 2021.

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20 22.

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Yeah. And I

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I I said I was like, you got you gotta you gotta leave the fixed address. Right? Yeah. And it's it's it's funny because it's it's I mean, it's not funny because people are at risk.

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But it's hard to comprehend. I remember what the answer was. The answer was,

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look, this is simple. It works for us, and Putin can't take the money. And that's true. Like, he can't take regardless if how you use Bitcoin,

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it's very difficult for the money to be taken, which is one of the key features of Bitcoin.

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But what people

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often fail to realize

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is that we live in a physical world,

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and there are many levers that bad people can pull,

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to to pressure us into

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to doing certain things.

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And privacy is a key aspect of that. If if if people are able to track the transactions,

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then they can use that information against you in external ways, in ways that are not directly related to Bitcoin. Whether that's seizing businesses, whether that's pressuring family

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members,

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whether that's just arresting you and putting you in jail.

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So privacy plays a key part here, and Bitcoin privacy tools,

250
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and Bitcoin privacy best practices have gotten a lot easier to use,

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but historically

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have been the much more difficult path. When WikiLeaks first started

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accepting Bitcoin,

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they used a fixed address that everyone could see. When you guys first started using Bitcoin, you guys used a fixed address. It's the easiest way to do it because you literally just copy and paste a single address and you're able to receive the Bitcoin, but

255
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it it is it is incredibly easy to track.

256
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Go on.

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Yeah.

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I will comment that,

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that you said that 2 years ago, I I gave you that answer, and I'm not proud of that. But,

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you know, we've been using Bitcoin since 2016th.

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But I will be honest with you.

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Till the 2022,

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I didn't know anything about Bitcoin.

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We were using it, and,

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I personally I was taking it for granted. Like, okay, we use Bitcoin.

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It's one of the tools, one of the currencies we operate with, and I didn't know it was a big deal.

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I was like, okay. It's like, I never even tried to analyze this

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until the moment when I met Alex Gladstein from HRF,

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and I read his book, Check Your Financial Privilege.

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I found out that there are, like, many activists from all over the world. They are all in the same situation.

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They all use Bitcoin,

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in their fight against dictatorships

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or if they are the private of access to traditional currencies.

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And I realized that there are so many people, and they use different tools. And there are different tools, and they didn't know about it. So if you, like,

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to to know about it, you should start, like, learning about it. You should start, like, thinking that maybe there are different tools. But at that point, I didn't even think about that.

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Fortunately,

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I met Alex Gladstein.

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He introduced me to the community of Bitcoiners. I met

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many great people, many great developers.

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I learned about,

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non KYC

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wallets, non custodial wallets, different platforms where I can do it,

283
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when I where I can operate with Bitcoin really,

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in a safe way. And after that, of course, I brought this knowledge to my team,

285
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and we started thinking about that. And in my team, no one knew about that as well.

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So,

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yeah,

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it's,

289
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yeah, it's a very

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important thing to

291
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to educate, to spread this because people don't even know that there are options to to do it, safely.

292
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Yeah. And, I mean,

293
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it's been it's been amazing watching you along that journey.

294
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But the the scary part

295
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the scary part to me is is, you know, Bitcoin the Bitcoin blockchain,

296
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this ledger of transactions,

297
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that list every Bitcoin transaction that ever happened.

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If we're right about Bitcoin,

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which I strongly believe we are,

300
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it will last

301
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forever. It will last longer than all of us.

302
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And and the scary thing is is once you realize

303
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that once you realize that fact and once you realize that if you use Bitcoin

304
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in certain ways, it's incredibly easy to track.

305
00:21:16.595 --> 00:21:19.174
You come to this really frightening conclusion

306
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that people,

307
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that are not thinking about it today,

308
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it could be used against them in the future because those transactions are there forever.

309
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So one of the arguments,

310
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you know, I'm I'm good friends with Alex.

311
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But one of the arguments I heard from him very early on was,

312
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look, Matt. We're not talking about the US government.

313
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We're not talking about, you know, sophisticated

314
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state actors.

315
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They don't have the means to track these things right now. And the the scary thing is, like, okay. Like, maybe

316
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you're an activist in in Belarus or in Venezuela,

317
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and those governments aren't sophisticated enough to track it right now. They might be in 2 years. They might be in 3 years, and that's when you start to see the repercussions there. Obviously, Russia is a more sophisticated actor

318
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than a lot of the other authoritarian governments around the world,

319
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but the point remains. And then the second point I wanna make clear here because I do have one one of the cool things

320
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about this show is it is a a very global audience, but it's still

321
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American

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dominated. The the majority of listeners come from America.

323
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And and something that I've been talking about for years

324
00:22:29.245 --> 00:22:30.865
is the concerns over KYC,

325
00:22:31.804 --> 00:22:37.750
and the concerns over this idea that we have Bitcoin companies that are mandated by law to keep lists of Bitcoiners

326
00:22:38.290 --> 00:22:41.030
and our transaction history. And I think,

327
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that in these cases in these cases when we

328
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see freedom freedom focus activists around the world fighting against authoritarian regimes, it becomes quite obvious to people how dangerous these lists can be.

329
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If you talk to an American,

330
00:22:58.289 --> 00:23:02.625
they might look the other way when they hear that Coinbase or Strike

331
00:23:02.925 --> 00:23:10.705
is keeping list of Bitcoiners in the transaction history, and they're giving it to the American government. But when you say that Binance gave that information to Putin,

332
00:23:11.310 --> 00:23:13.090
they're like, oh, that's fucked up.

333
00:23:13.630 --> 00:23:25.934
And this it it's it's the same issue. The issue No. Uh-huh. And the danger is the same regardless of where you live and regardless of which government is requiring it. And a lot of times, it's US government policy

334
00:23:26.395 --> 00:23:29.455
that is creating this financial hegemony around the world

335
00:23:29.800 --> 00:23:31.740
that mandates it on on

336
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on companies like Binance that are operating, you know, in, like,

337
00:23:36.955 --> 00:23:39.695
a hundred different countries and no one knows where their headquarters is.

338
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And, you know, it's not, it's not even necessary that

339
00:23:45.710 --> 00:23:46.690
Russian government

340
00:23:47.230 --> 00:23:54.850
asks for this data from the platform. They can do it in a very sophisticated way. They can do it through friendly countries,

341
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through third countries. And,

342
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for example, when European

343
00:24:00.605 --> 00:24:03.585
platforms or even European banks, like usual banks,

344
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require this AML

345
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and KYC procedures,

346
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and we explain to them how dangerous it is to provide this type of data,

347
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data of,

348
00:24:16.265 --> 00:24:18.685
people we work with, our donors.

349
00:24:19.190 --> 00:24:23.210
And some some people ask me, like, what's the problem if you provide it to European,

350
00:24:24.310 --> 00:24:27.130
European organizations, European banks, European platforms?

351
00:24:27.845 --> 00:24:28.905
They are not gonna

352
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collude with Russia. They are not gonna give it to Russian regime.

353
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But,

354
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Russian regime can ask friendly countries

355
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to ask for this data.

356
00:24:39.260 --> 00:24:53.325
And then Europe can collaborate with, Putin's friendly countries, and they can leak the data to the Russian government. And this is very dangerous. And, actually, you know, it was it was so hard, for us when we we left Russia in 2021

357
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because we were labeled as an extremist organization. We moved to Lithuania, to Europe. It's a European country.

358
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And when we moved, we were thinking like, okay, now we're not gonna have any banking problems anymore as we had in Russia. In Russia, it was a huge struggle. You know, in Russia, eventually,

359
00:25:10.525 --> 00:25:11.005
we couldn't

360
00:25:12.090 --> 00:25:19.950
it was hard for us to find a person willing to accept money from us. It was hard for us to pay for any services.

361
00:25:20.465 --> 00:25:25.445
For example, we want to organize a protest rally in Moscow. We we need to pay for,

362
00:25:26.065 --> 00:25:30.150
equipment, for a stage, for speakers, microphones just to,

363
00:25:30.770 --> 00:25:34.390
have a protest rally. But the problem is that that contractors

364
00:25:34.690 --> 00:25:36.895
didn't want to accept payment from us

365
00:25:37.295 --> 00:25:39.075
because paying for any services,

366
00:25:39.935 --> 00:25:44.840
would put their bank accounts at risk of being blocked for collaborating with us

367
00:25:45.320 --> 00:25:53.500
because, everything is transparent. The banking system is transparent. So it was so hard to work with Russia from financial side. It was really hard.

368
00:25:54.745 --> 00:26:01.930
But when we left the country, we moved to Europe, and we were thinking like, okay. Now we're not gonna face financial problems because here,

369
00:26:02.330 --> 00:26:04.750
no one is gonna block our bank accounts or whatever.

370
00:26:06.250 --> 00:26:11.790
But, in the first place, we couldn't even open a bank account because European banks,

371
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they,

372
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have,

373
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anti money laundering regulations,

374
00:26:17.035 --> 00:26:18.495
and they just automatically

375
00:26:18.795 --> 00:26:25.640
see that we are Russians. We have Russian passport. So they de bank us just because of that. And, we rely on Bitcoin

376
00:26:26.100 --> 00:26:29.875
also because of that because we are in a gray zone for European banks,

377
00:26:30.355 --> 00:26:35.335
anti money laundering procedures, they just kick us out from from the banking system.

378
00:26:35.715 --> 00:26:39.820
Eventually, we managed to open a bank account in Europe. We keep working,

379
00:26:40.360 --> 00:26:47.900
and we receive fiat donations to our usual banking account in Europe. But we need to have Bitcoin.

380
00:26:48.245 --> 00:26:50.505
We need Bitcoin more than Fiat.

381
00:26:50.965 --> 00:26:54.025
So we cannot as an NGO, we're a nonprofit organization.

382
00:26:54.405 --> 00:26:56.905
We have a legal entity in European country,

383
00:26:57.250 --> 00:27:00.950
and the money that we collect from our donors to our bank account,

384
00:27:01.330 --> 00:27:06.935
we cannot buy Bitcoin with this money. And this is a huge struggle we're having right now,

385
00:27:07.335 --> 00:27:12.475
because we need Bitcoin for many, many, many reasons. We do so many payments in Bitcoin.

386
00:27:13.015 --> 00:27:13.835
All the payments

387
00:27:14.269 --> 00:27:21.570
to Russia, we do in Bitcoin because the country is completely cut off from the global financial system because of the sanctions.

388
00:27:21.985 --> 00:27:24.645
We but we need to make payments to pay,

389
00:27:25.825 --> 00:27:34.500
to to help activists who fight against the regime inside the country. We do payments to help, political prisoners and their family members.

390
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.165
We had to pay for Alexander Vali's funeral services in Moscow.

391
00:27:40.125 --> 00:27:41.345
And I personally

392
00:27:41.805 --> 00:27:42.945
need to make payments,

393
00:27:43.805 --> 00:27:46.865
transactions to support my family who's who live in Russia.

394
00:27:47.245 --> 00:27:47.745
And

395
00:27:48.560 --> 00:27:52.980
there is no way to do it with fiat. No chance. We need Bitcoin to do that.

396
00:27:53.440 --> 00:28:01.855
And so we have, fiat savings on our bank account in Europe, but banks do not allow us to buy Bitcoin with this money.

397
00:28:02.315 --> 00:28:04.655
And, we say but we need to make

398
00:28:05.090 --> 00:28:06.310
transactions to Russia.

399
00:28:06.690 --> 00:28:16.245
And, they say Russia is under sanctions, and we are we will not allow you in the first place to make transactions to Russia. We say, okay. We just want to buy Bitcoin,

400
00:28:17.105 --> 00:28:19.684
and, that's it. We want to keep the money in Bitcoin.

401
00:28:20.144 --> 00:28:29.340
And they say, if you okay. Maybe we can try. But if you take the money from the bank account and you go to any platform to exchange it into Bitcoin,

402
00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:31.545
we need to see all the, like,

403
00:28:32.265 --> 00:28:39.245
all the operations you do with Bitcoin after that. You will have to provide us with all the data about operations

404
00:28:39.929 --> 00:28:44.990
and all the personal data of the final recipients of Bitcoin funds.

405
00:28:45.290 --> 00:28:47.630
So even if you convert it into Bitcoin,

406
00:28:48.090 --> 00:28:49.145
then we will need

407
00:28:49.465 --> 00:28:50.845
passports of the recipients.

408
00:28:51.785 --> 00:28:54.765
We see, but we need Bitcoin to make safe transactions.

409
00:28:55.465 --> 00:28:58.525
So we don't we don't want to provide passports,

410
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:14.215
but banks say no. It's, KYC and AML measures, and you have to. And in the end, we are completely stuck. We cannot use Fiat. They don't allow us to buy Bitcoin, and it's a it's a big problem for us. So today, we actually encourage

411
00:29:14.740 --> 00:29:15.960
our donors to,

412
00:29:16.660 --> 00:29:21.800
donate more Bitcoin to us than Fiat because it's not possible in Europe to convert

413
00:29:22.184 --> 00:29:24.445
fiat into Bitcoin, but we need Bitcoin.

414
00:29:24.904 --> 00:29:34.470
And we encourage, like, please donate more Bitcoin to us because we need for for example, right now, we investigate Navalny's murder. He was killed in prison,

415
00:29:34.930 --> 00:29:39.830
and we pay with Bitcoin to those who help us investigate it inside Russia.

416
00:29:41.315 --> 00:29:42.695
And those payments

417
00:29:42.995 --> 00:29:47.095
must be very secure, very safe because those people who help us investigate,

418
00:29:47.554 --> 00:29:55.840
they will be in great danger for receiving money from us. So we use Bitcoin to pay them, and we ask our donors, please donate more Bitcoin than fiat.

419
00:29:58.125 --> 00:30:00.544
Yeah. I mean, it makes sense to me that Bitcoin is

420
00:30:00.845 --> 00:30:03.585
way more useful to an organization like yours.

421
00:30:04.605 --> 00:30:05.825
I mean, my my

422
00:30:07.020 --> 00:30:09.760
my my hope and a lot of work that I have done

423
00:30:10.220 --> 00:30:16.755
in this space has been to make Bitcoin as as useful as a tool for freedom as possible. And, unfortunately,

424
00:30:18.495 --> 00:30:28.299
at least in America, a lot of the focus has been more on the investment side, which is still a key piece of the whole equation because you want your savings to increase in value over time.

425
00:30:28.760 --> 00:30:33.179
But I do think a lot of Americans don't realize the real need people have around the world,

426
00:30:33.625 --> 00:30:37.325
for freedom money, for money that can be used without permission,

427
00:30:38.185 --> 00:30:40.845
that can be spent or saved without permission.

428
00:30:41.850 --> 00:30:42.910
I'm kinda curious.

429
00:30:43.530 --> 00:30:44.190
I mean,

430
00:30:45.690 --> 00:30:46.650
it's a really

431
00:30:49.705 --> 00:30:51.085
I like the hard topics,

432
00:30:51.625 --> 00:30:57.165
which is one of the reasons why dispatch exists, which is one of the reasons why people even know I'm a person,

433
00:30:57.940 --> 00:31:02.600
was because people were just not having the hard conversations, and I felt like someone had to have the hard conversations.

434
00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:05.960
But it is, like,

435
00:31:06.955 --> 00:31:10.495
it is super taboo. It is, like, it is it is

436
00:31:12.475 --> 00:31:14.815
sensitive from a criminal point of view,

437
00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:18.360
in the United States. But I'm I'm kind of

438
00:31:18.740 --> 00:31:20.520
I'm kind of curious on your opinion

439
00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:24.095
on general, like,

440
00:31:24.575 --> 00:31:27.315
and you can just tell me I'm not gonna answer this question.

441
00:31:28.575 --> 00:31:33.395
On general sanction policy of the United States. Because I mean, the whole idea,

442
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:39.260
the the the idea that's sold to the general public about Russian sanctions is that it hurts Putin,

443
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:42.539
and that that it's it's a

444
00:31:42.975 --> 00:31:44.115
key tool

445
00:31:44.495 --> 00:31:45.875
in in fighting,

446
00:31:46.975 --> 00:31:48.435
fighting against authoritarianism

447
00:31:48.895 --> 00:31:51.155
around the world is to sanction whole countries.

448
00:31:51.990 --> 00:31:53.530
Obviously, Russian sanctions

449
00:31:54.070 --> 00:31:56.490
have hit a whole another level. I mean, it's

450
00:31:56.950 --> 00:32:04.175
it's it's probably the the largest global sanction policy that we've ever seen enacted, since the modern financial system existed.

451
00:32:05.434 --> 00:32:06.095
But, obviously,

452
00:32:06.890 --> 00:32:15.070
you have your own issues that that stem from this policy. I'm curious. Like, do you think it like, do you think it's a net benefit? Do you think it's a good thing? Do you think it's,

453
00:32:16.205 --> 00:32:17.265
I yeah.

454
00:32:17.645 --> 00:32:18.705
Yeah. I get it.

455
00:32:19.885 --> 00:32:23.184
I think that those global sanctions and especially

456
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:24.500
as a financial

457
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:26.580
director of,

458
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:29.460
such an organization,

459
00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:32.180
I believe that financial sanctions,

460
00:32:32.885 --> 00:32:35.705
global financial sanctions against the entire country,

461
00:32:36.245 --> 00:32:36.745
it's

462
00:32:37.285 --> 00:32:37.945
a very

463
00:32:38.325 --> 00:32:39.145
poor decision.

464
00:32:39.684 --> 00:32:42.345
And it's first of all, it

465
00:32:42.789 --> 00:32:45.450
damages it hits people like us,

466
00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:47.289
because

467
00:32:47.909 --> 00:32:49.530
we are the first

468
00:32:50.375 --> 00:32:51.035
who suffer

469
00:32:51.415 --> 00:32:52.635
from sanctions,

470
00:32:53.975 --> 00:33:04.820
suffer a lot, and we have no no other options. We have no other ways. We don't have any plans b when actually Putin and his regime, his oligarchs,

471
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:07.674
they immediately found solution

472
00:33:07.975 --> 00:33:09.434
how to avoid the sanctions.

473
00:33:09.815 --> 00:33:19.330
They don't need Bitcoin for that. You know? There is that narrative that, what if Putin Putin's regime is gonna use Bitcoin? We need to ban it because of that. But I'm sorry, but it's

474
00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:21.225
it's so not true,

475
00:33:21.684 --> 00:33:31.250
because Putin and his regime, they to avoid sanctions, they use friendly countries. There are so many investigations proving that, that there are so many countries

476
00:33:31.870 --> 00:33:34.770
who collaborate with Putin, who collude with Russian regime.

477
00:33:35.070 --> 00:33:36.850
They still provides

478
00:33:37.205 --> 00:33:38.985
Russia with all necessary

479
00:33:39.285 --> 00:33:40.585
products and everything,

480
00:33:40.885 --> 00:33:42.585
and they still trade with Russia.

481
00:33:42.965 --> 00:33:43.465
So,

482
00:33:44.165 --> 00:33:44.905
and Putin,

483
00:33:45.610 --> 00:33:46.490
he and his,

484
00:33:47.690 --> 00:33:50.750
his circle, they keep their assets abroad.

485
00:33:51.210 --> 00:33:52.270
So it's like

486
00:33:53.075 --> 00:33:55.575
those sanctions, they don't hit them at all.

487
00:33:55.875 --> 00:33:56.375
But

488
00:33:56.995 --> 00:33:57.895
usual Russians,

489
00:33:58.275 --> 00:34:01.735
they lost an opportunity to just to make money transfers.

490
00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:04.559
I don't know how I would

491
00:34:05.179 --> 00:34:08.640
how I could support my family if I didn't have Bitcoin today.

492
00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:11.575
I have my sister in Russia. She is,

493
00:34:12.214 --> 00:34:15.435
she she's sick, and I help her to buy medications.

494
00:34:16.214 --> 00:34:20.315
And I do just I go to Huddl Huddl, my favorite platform.

495
00:34:20.810 --> 00:34:25.230
I exchange my Bitcoin to rubles for the p to p trading,

496
00:34:25.610 --> 00:34:33.755
and, she receives rubles from the trader with whom I had the contract. So this is how I send money to to my sister, for example.

497
00:34:34.215 --> 00:34:41.860
And, those who don't know how to use Bitcoin for those who's they haven't learned yet, They they're just stuck. They they,

498
00:34:43.040 --> 00:34:43.700
they cannot,

499
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:59.300
get money from the country. They cannot send money to the country. And actually, when Putin started the war, he started to recruit Russian men, like usual men. He takes men from their families and sends them to the war. He there is a mobilization in the country.

500
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:00.260
And,

501
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:10.045
more than 1,000,000 of Russian men left the country since the war started. They want to avoid the war. So it's a huge amount of people who are now abroad

502
00:35:10.585 --> 00:35:13.724
being deprived of access to the banking system.

503
00:35:14.185 --> 00:35:16.730
So some of them, they had,

504
00:35:17.210 --> 00:35:19.390
remote jobs in Russia.

505
00:35:19.850 --> 00:35:25.275
They work for, for example, for Russian companies. They move abroad and they cannot receive their salaries.

506
00:35:26.055 --> 00:35:27.175
And, they cannot,

507
00:35:29.095 --> 00:35:31.670
help their families. So, like, any any financial

508
00:35:31.970 --> 00:35:37.750
transfers are not possible to the country and from the country. And especially it hits hard,

509
00:35:38.755 --> 00:35:41.735
human rights defenders in these organizations like us,

510
00:35:42.435 --> 00:35:43.975
because as I mentioned before,

511
00:35:44.275 --> 00:35:46.710
banks in Europe don't want to have us.

512
00:35:47.270 --> 00:35:50.250
They don't allow us to operate with Bitcoin as well,

513
00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:51.510
and we are

514
00:35:52.230 --> 00:35:55.609
we we have to fight not only against Russian dictatorship,

515
00:35:56.315 --> 00:35:58.975
but we also have to fight for our existence,

516
00:36:00.155 --> 00:36:00.655
abroad.

517
00:36:00.955 --> 00:36:02.415
We have to fight for

518
00:36:02.715 --> 00:36:04.160
our right to fight.

519
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:07.059
And it's it's it's such a nonsense.

520
00:36:07.359 --> 00:36:10.660
Instead of, like, helping us, they really, like, deprive us of,

521
00:36:11.359 --> 00:36:12.420
operating freely.

522
00:36:12.799 --> 00:36:13.299
And

523
00:36:14.265 --> 00:36:19.404
this is all the result of sanctions, global sanctions, against the entire country.

524
00:36:19.944 --> 00:36:23.565
And I think that these sanctions failed really badly.

525
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:24.200
And,

526
00:36:25.720 --> 00:36:29.820
I I read a lot of articles saying that Russian economical

527
00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:31.100
level

528
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:31.980
recovered

529
00:36:32.595 --> 00:36:34.695
to the level of pre COVID

530
00:36:35.235 --> 00:36:35.735
situation.

531
00:36:36.595 --> 00:36:43.980
So it's like it's it's not that bad right now. So I don't think that sanctions work really well if Russia keeps

532
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:46.619
keeps,

533
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:47.980
making weapons

534
00:36:48.345 --> 00:36:49.964
and sending weapons to Ukraine.

535
00:36:50.265 --> 00:36:51.085
They keep

536
00:36:51.944 --> 00:36:52.525
on getting

537
00:36:54.345 --> 00:36:57.870
support from other countries, and that's that's the problem.

538
00:36:59.370 --> 00:36:59.870
Yeah.

539
00:37:01.450 --> 00:37:05.150
What we at the Anti Corruption Foundation, what we

540
00:37:06.435 --> 00:37:07.335
promote is

541
00:37:07.955 --> 00:37:11.015
personal sanctions against Putin and his circle,

542
00:37:11.555 --> 00:37:14.295
targeted sanctions against those who really

543
00:37:14.830 --> 00:37:29.525
fuel this war, against those who really support the regime. Those people we created a list of 6,000 names. It's one of our biggest projects. But, actually, now there is more than 7,000 names. Those names of people who support the regime, who

544
00:37:30.065 --> 00:37:34.339
support the war. So we we provide all the proofs, all the evidence

545
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:37.859
why those people must be sanctioned personally.

546
00:37:38.615 --> 00:37:42.315
But sanctioning the entire country just like that without thinking,

547
00:37:43.095 --> 00:37:43.595
about

548
00:37:43.975 --> 00:37:48.590
what's gonna happen next to people like us, I think it's it wasn't the smartest decision.

549
00:37:50.090 --> 00:37:52.350
Yeah. I mean, to me, I see a lot of similarities

550
00:37:52.890 --> 00:37:53.370
with,

551
00:37:53.770 --> 00:37:54.270
KYC

552
00:37:54.650 --> 00:37:55.550
AML policies,

553
00:37:56.395 --> 00:37:59.295
which is the argument is always, like, it's to stop criminals.

554
00:38:01.115 --> 00:38:03.850
But criminals always seem to find a way around it.

555
00:38:04.730 --> 00:38:06.350
They use bought or stolen

556
00:38:09.770 --> 00:38:10.590
ID documents,

557
00:38:11.185 --> 00:38:20.645
And it's the average it's the average people that tend to get to to tend to tend to get hurt by it when all this information leaks or governments use it against them.

558
00:38:21.570 --> 00:38:22.870
And I I unfortunately,

559
00:38:24.370 --> 00:38:30.070
I don't think that's really a compelling argument for our corrupt political class because I think the real goal

560
00:38:30.525 --> 00:38:38.625
is of KYC AML is control. And it's control over over all the average individuals Yes. Of course. That are not doing anything wrong.

561
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:41.580
And I I hear, like, it's,

562
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:43.980
very traditional

563
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:51.515
point of everyone when they try to argue with me and they say, criminals use Bitcoin. And I say, I am a criminal.

564
00:38:51.895 --> 00:38:55.435
I'm officially a criminal in Russia. I'm an extremist.

565
00:38:55.880 --> 00:39:03.020
I'm a money launderer. I have a criminal case for money laundering. Of course, it's fabricated, but still You're a terrorist according to Putin.

566
00:39:03.725 --> 00:39:06.225
Yeah. Exactly. And, yes, I'm a,

567
00:39:06.765 --> 00:39:08.545
I'm a criminal using Bitcoin.

568
00:39:09.005 --> 00:39:09.825
So, like,

569
00:39:11.070 --> 00:39:16.370
this this this narrative doesn't work. Actually, Bitcoin is, is bad for

570
00:39:16.910 --> 00:39:20.415
moving big amounts of money. It's it's it's transparent.

571
00:39:21.275 --> 00:39:21.775
And,

572
00:39:22.315 --> 00:39:29.480
it's like every time when, some, like, real criminals try to use it or Putin's friends, Every time it leaked

573
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:31.700
this information, every time leaked.

574
00:39:32.160 --> 00:39:39.484
So it's they very quickly realized that Bitcoin is not the best option for them. But when I tell you about us using Bitcoin in our work,

575
00:39:39.865 --> 00:39:42.525
I'm talking about small amounts. It's like,

576
00:39:42.825 --> 00:39:44.340
it's up to â¬1,000,

577
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:49.220
even less. When we talk about donations we receive, it's like

578
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:50.260
$50

579
00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:51.620
or $100

580
00:39:52.240 --> 00:39:52.740
maximum.

581
00:39:53.234 --> 00:39:55.075
So it's it's only small amounts,

582
00:39:55.395 --> 00:40:00.295
that we operate with. Or if we pay salaries in Bitcoin, we actually pay salaries

583
00:40:00.789 --> 00:40:01.930
for around 76

584
00:40:02.230 --> 00:40:04.650
of our employees in Bitcoin today

585
00:40:05.510 --> 00:40:06.569
for different reasons.

586
00:40:07.954 --> 00:40:15.174
Most of them work remotely, and for some of them, it's not safe to receive money from us. So we pay with Bitcoin.

587
00:40:15.555 --> 00:40:21.300
And here, we don't talk about big amounts. It's still, like, small amounts. But for criminals,

588
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:22.080
it's,

589
00:40:22.640 --> 00:40:32.454
it's not, convenient to use Bitcoin for huge amounts because you can always see it in the Blockchain that a big amount of money is moving somewhere. It's really easy to track.

590
00:40:34.720 --> 00:40:39.380
Yeah. I mean, I don't know if that's necessarily a compelling argument either because I think if we're being honest,

591
00:40:41.680 --> 00:40:43.060
that will probably change.

592
00:40:43.945 --> 00:40:47.405
I think I think one of the interesting things about Bitcoin is

593
00:40:49.865 --> 00:40:52.525
is that it could be useful for authoritarians,

594
00:40:53.210 --> 00:40:56.750
and then it can also be useful for the people that protest against them,

595
00:40:57.529 --> 00:40:59.789
which means, like, everyone kind of needs it.

596
00:41:00.329 --> 00:41:02.829
But, yeah, I I I do agree that

597
00:41:05.035 --> 00:41:10.895
I do agree that if if if in larger amounts, particularly, it's harder to use Bitcoin privately.

598
00:41:12.190 --> 00:41:16.450
I'm kinda curious. I think this is a good moment to kind of dovetail or

599
00:41:16.910 --> 00:41:17.570
or discuss,

600
00:41:18.990 --> 00:41:22.095
how you guys actually use Bitcoin and some of the troubles you've had,

601
00:41:23.215 --> 00:41:24.435
in terms of,

602
00:41:25.295 --> 00:41:31.315
trying to use it more privately. I mean, I know we've had many discussions about using CoinJoin, using collaborative

603
00:41:31.630 --> 00:41:32.130
transactions,

604
00:41:32.750 --> 00:41:35.089
obviously, using fresh addresses every time.

605
00:41:36.990 --> 00:41:38.049
How has that

606
00:41:39.905 --> 00:41:41.765
how how have you guys used it effectively?

607
00:41:42.145 --> 00:41:43.925
What kind of issues have you had?

608
00:41:44.305 --> 00:41:44.945
You know,

609
00:41:45.265 --> 00:41:48.120
where where are we at in this process from your point of view?

610
00:41:50.120 --> 00:41:51.740
Yeah. So as I mentioned before,

611
00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:56.140
I learned a couple of years ago that there are solutions to make,

612
00:41:57.495 --> 00:41:59.195
the flow of of the nations,

613
00:41:59.735 --> 00:42:03.595
to make it safer, to provide privacy for our donors.

614
00:42:04.215 --> 00:42:04.715
And

615
00:42:06.410 --> 00:42:10.349
we implemented that button that generates new Bitcoin addresses

616
00:42:10.730 --> 00:42:12.270
every time for each donation,

617
00:42:12.650 --> 00:42:16.525
and we use CoinJoin. We use Wasabi Wallet to receive donations,

618
00:42:16.905 --> 00:42:22.205
so coins are mixed. And then, like, it's it's not possible to track the donors.

619
00:42:22.665 --> 00:42:27.200
And we thought that it was a great solution that is 100%,

620
00:42:27.579 --> 00:42:29.040
like, working for us.

621
00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:30.880
But at some point,

622
00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:32.960
we we faced

623
00:42:33.260 --> 00:42:35.345
difficulties. We faced challenges,

624
00:42:36.365 --> 00:42:36.865
because,

625
00:42:37.885 --> 00:42:39.485
sometimes we need to use,

626
00:42:40.285 --> 00:42:42.445
cash or sometimes we need to use,

627
00:42:43.005 --> 00:42:43.985
fiat for

628
00:42:44.430 --> 00:42:47.329
some reasons to pay for some services or whatever.

629
00:42:47.869 --> 00:42:49.329
And once we had

630
00:42:49.790 --> 00:42:51.650
a problem, we we didn't have enough,

631
00:42:52.145 --> 00:42:57.365
Fiat, and we needed to convert Bitcoin that we receive from our donors into Fiat.

632
00:42:57.825 --> 00:42:58.145
And,

633
00:42:59.080 --> 00:43:01.420
for that, we used the platform. Unfortunately,

634
00:43:01.720 --> 00:43:05.020
I wasn't there. My colleagues were responsible for that transaction.

635
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:11.295
And if I knew about that, of course, I would have stopped that. Unfortunately, I wasn't there at that moment. And,

636
00:43:11.855 --> 00:43:13.875
they used the platform that I

637
00:43:14.175 --> 00:43:16.115
really I I wouldn't trust,

638
00:43:17.370 --> 00:43:19.850
and it's a KYC platform and,

639
00:43:20.330 --> 00:43:22.590
AML platform. So they sent,

640
00:43:23.210 --> 00:43:25.390
bigger money amount of money there,

641
00:43:26.125 --> 00:43:28.224
and the platform stopped the transaction.

642
00:43:28.765 --> 00:43:31.744
Because today, all platforms, they check transactions

643
00:43:32.525 --> 00:43:34.559
through some anti money laundering

644
00:43:34.940 --> 00:43:38.319
services, some bots or, I don't know, some some tools,

645
00:43:39.339 --> 00:43:40.400
that show you

646
00:43:40.755 --> 00:43:44.995
what amount like, what this transaction consists of. If there is,

647
00:43:45.795 --> 00:43:48.695
mixers involved, if there are stolen coins

648
00:43:49.155 --> 00:43:49.655
involved,

649
00:43:50.359 --> 00:43:50.759
And,

650
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:54.599
they they checked our transaction, and,

651
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:57.259
they told us that there is, like, 60%

652
00:43:58.115 --> 00:44:00.375
of coins are from the mixer,

653
00:44:00.915 --> 00:44:07.710
which is technically true because we use coin joints. So we mix the coins, but we only do So it's actually like a 100%. Right?

654
00:44:08.970 --> 00:44:09.470
Sorry?

655
00:44:10.250 --> 00:44:14.750
I mean, they said 60%, but I thought you were you you use CoinJoin for all of it. No?

656
00:44:15.835 --> 00:44:22.734
I don't know how it works. Why it shows that? It's, like, not the entire thing. Bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how it works technically,

657
00:44:23.275 --> 00:44:25.200
but Okay. It's, yeah,

658
00:44:25.980 --> 00:44:28.080
the fact is that they didn't like

659
00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:35.035
the, the coins that we send them. And, they said that they are not going to accept our coins,

660
00:44:35.735 --> 00:44:37.115
and they froze the transaction.

661
00:44:37.415 --> 00:44:38.875
So we asked for refund.

662
00:44:39.560 --> 00:44:42.060
It was at that moment, it was a Bitcoin,

663
00:44:42.520 --> 00:44:43.980
worth of around â¬10,000,

664
00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:50.835
but today, it's already, like, 19,000. So it's it keeps growing. So today It's gonna go higher.

665
00:44:51.454 --> 00:44:59.080
Yeah. Exactly. And but even there then it was 10,000. It was a lot. And they just froze. They stopped our transaction.

666
00:44:59.619 --> 00:45:01.160
And we asked for refund,

667
00:45:01.700 --> 00:45:03.800
and they refused to make a refund

668
00:45:04.339 --> 00:45:05.320
because they

669
00:45:05.700 --> 00:45:07.160
they said, you are Russians,

670
00:45:07.675 --> 00:45:09.775
and we don't make transactions

671
00:45:10.155 --> 00:45:12.175
to people from sanctioned countries.

672
00:45:12.635 --> 00:45:14.015
You have Russian passports.

673
00:45:14.875 --> 00:45:15.375
And

674
00:45:16.420 --> 00:45:22.765
it's still I think it's been already 3 months that we communicate with them. They just refused to send money back,

675
00:45:23.164 --> 00:45:24.944
and, this is the result

676
00:45:25.404 --> 00:45:26.785
of anti money laundering

677
00:45:27.644 --> 00:45:28.144
requirements

678
00:45:28.525 --> 00:45:29.744
at this kind of platforms.

679
00:45:31.005 --> 00:45:33.020
But I don't know, like, if we

680
00:45:33.560 --> 00:45:34.060
had

681
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:36.300
clean coins,

682
00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:44.925
if we if we were gonna have the same the same situation or not. But I explained to them that we are we do this to provide

683
00:45:45.225 --> 00:45:48.205
safety for our donors. We mix them on a purpose

684
00:45:48.665 --> 00:46:01.865
so the government, Russian government, is not gonna attract the donors. And we do a good thing for the people, and, we really rely on this money. It's a huge amount of money. And if you're not gonna give it back to us, we're gonna have,

685
00:46:03.204 --> 00:46:04.105
financial problems.

686
00:46:04.805 --> 00:46:06.560
But they just they refused

687
00:46:06.940 --> 00:46:10.240
to send it back, and, yeah, this is the result

688
00:46:10.700 --> 00:46:12.400
of the situation. And I'm curious,

689
00:46:13.020 --> 00:46:16.435
how we can avoid these situations in the future

690
00:46:16.895 --> 00:46:18.435
if we keep using this,

691
00:46:19.775 --> 00:46:24.950
money if we if we keep mixing the money, how we can avoid this kind of situations?

692
00:46:25.490 --> 00:46:28.630
And I talked to some people. I just came, here

693
00:46:28.930 --> 00:46:40.135
to New York from, Bedford. I was at the conference in in Bedford. Yes. And, the cheat code. And there, I had an opportunity to speak with amazing people to discuss the situation.

694
00:46:40.915 --> 00:46:41.395
And,

695
00:46:41.990 --> 00:46:42.490
I

696
00:46:43.030 --> 00:46:44.010
I got some

697
00:46:44.710 --> 00:46:45.210
ideas

698
00:46:45.750 --> 00:46:46.250
that

699
00:46:46.550 --> 00:46:50.490
we I can use these coins. I can send them to Lightning Wallet

700
00:46:50.855 --> 00:46:53.035
and then but, you know, I

701
00:46:53.575 --> 00:46:54.075
received

702
00:46:54.375 --> 00:47:01.940
some money from these mixed coins from the ACF Mixed coins. I received some money to my personal lightning wallet.

703
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:03.060
And then,

704
00:47:03.520 --> 00:47:09.655
I I received the salary from this money. And then I wanted to send some money to my family.

705
00:47:10.195 --> 00:47:12.455
So I went to Huddl Huddl platform,

706
00:47:12.915 --> 00:47:14.855
and I tried to do p to p trading

707
00:47:15.670 --> 00:47:16.810
with these coins.

708
00:47:17.350 --> 00:47:21.370
And the trader there checked my transaction. Now it's a trend.

709
00:47:21.670 --> 00:47:28.224
All trader, it doesn't matter what, what's the amount of money. They all check all the,

710
00:47:28.684 --> 00:47:30.865
all transactions. And it was, like, around â¬300

711
00:47:31.565 --> 00:47:33.345
I wanted to send to my sister.

712
00:47:33.700 --> 00:47:38.119
And they checked, he checked the transaction, and he said that there are mixed coins.

713
00:47:38.580 --> 00:47:42.280
And he's not gonna accept it, or he wants some fee from my transaction.

714
00:47:43.505 --> 00:47:45.845
And I'm curious, like, how it works

715
00:47:46.464 --> 00:47:47.525
if I keep,

716
00:47:47.905 --> 00:47:53.670
let's say, clean coins, and then I get some coins, like, from the ACF

717
00:47:53.970 --> 00:47:54.470
salary.

718
00:47:54.930 --> 00:47:57.750
If they are get mixed or not because,

719
00:47:58.690 --> 00:48:03.185
my my Lightning Wallet, Phoenix Wallet, it provides new addresses

720
00:48:03.485 --> 00:48:13.720
every time every time when I when I receive money to the wallet. Every time I use different addresses. Right? And, but still money gets mixed inside.

721
00:48:14.100 --> 00:48:15.880
Because when I try to make a transaction,

722
00:48:16.980 --> 00:48:18.840
when I was doing p to p trading,

723
00:48:19.185 --> 00:48:23.925
they rejected my coins. So I'm like, how how does it even work? I don't get it.

724
00:48:24.945 --> 00:48:32.500
So, yeah, now there are so many, like, technical problems, and I tried to find solution how to do it so we don't face this kind of situations

725
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:33.300
anymore.

726
00:48:34.640 --> 00:48:36.420
I mean, first of all, to the audience,

727
00:48:37.805 --> 00:48:41.025
my other show, Rabbit Hole Recap, which we do every week,

728
00:48:43.005 --> 00:48:45.425
sometimes I'm, like, grumpy or frustrated.

729
00:48:46.770 --> 00:48:51.030
A lot of times that's because I've had conversations like this behind the scenes.

730
00:48:51.730 --> 00:48:54.470
And it's good that we're having this conversation out in the open,

731
00:48:55.575 --> 00:48:58.954
because it is frustrating. Like, I'm the whole concept of,

732
00:49:00.694 --> 00:49:03.355
clean coins versus unclean coins

733
00:49:06.369 --> 00:49:10.789
It's a horrible concept. Like, that's ridiculous. There's Bitcoin and then there's no Bitcoin.

734
00:49:12.625 --> 00:49:14.165
First of all,

735
00:49:15.665 --> 00:49:16.165
the

736
00:49:16.465 --> 00:49:20.085
the larger transaction you guys had frozen and taken from you,

737
00:49:21.470 --> 00:49:23.650
that sounds like that was with a centralized

738
00:49:24.270 --> 00:49:24.770
exchange,

739
00:49:25.150 --> 00:49:30.065
right, not a p to p instance. You don't wanna mention which exchange that was. Right?

740
00:49:31.744 --> 00:49:33.285
Not yet. I'm thinking,

741
00:49:33.585 --> 00:49:41.790
I'm gonna wait for a while because we're still in the process of You're hoping you get the money back. Yeah. Yeah. But but if we don't get the money back,

742
00:49:42.090 --> 00:49:46.430
I'll start mentioning them, I guess, somewhere on Twitter. Fair enough.

743
00:49:48.694 --> 00:49:50.635
Yeah. I mean, that is that is

744
00:49:50.935 --> 00:49:52.635
that is brutal. And, I mean,

745
00:49:53.175 --> 00:49:56.875
it just shows how little humanity is involved in the process.

746
00:49:57.809 --> 00:50:00.630
Yeah. To to claim to claim that,

747
00:50:02.210 --> 00:50:07.265
they can't refund the money because of Russian sanctions when you literally run a Russian opposition

748
00:50:07.724 --> 00:50:09.105
Russian government opposition

749
00:50:09.405 --> 00:50:09.905
organization

750
00:50:10.845 --> 00:50:11.345
Exactly.

751
00:50:11.805 --> 00:50:15.869
Just shows that that there's no humanity in the process. It's just, like, point to the rule.

752
00:50:16.329 --> 00:50:17.869
Done. We're taking your money.

753
00:50:18.329 --> 00:50:22.109
Yeah. I know. And we went we live in exile, and we have residence

754
00:50:22.585 --> 00:50:24.204
permits of, Lithuania.

755
00:50:25.065 --> 00:50:27.005
So it it doesn't make any sense

756
00:50:27.305 --> 00:50:28.684
from this point of view.

757
00:50:30.770 --> 00:50:38.390
And then on the p to p side, this is incredibly troubling, is that there are I have seen many reports of increased p to p

758
00:50:42.325 --> 00:50:45.625
flagging activity. I the first thing is

759
00:50:46.005 --> 00:50:46.985
from a vocabulary

760
00:50:47.445 --> 00:50:48.345
point of view,

761
00:50:48.770 --> 00:50:49.270
and

762
00:50:50.690 --> 00:50:53.990
as someone who I know English is is not your first language.

763
00:50:54.690 --> 00:50:55.510
It sounds,

764
00:50:59.875 --> 00:51:01.655
well, I mean, I'm gonna say semantic,

765
00:51:02.275 --> 00:51:05.174
but it it it it sounds it sounds like bullshit.

766
00:51:05.954 --> 00:51:06.855
Yeah. But,

767
00:51:08.070 --> 00:51:10.410
I don't like calling CoinJoin mixing.

768
00:51:11.510 --> 00:51:12.010
Mixing

769
00:51:12.310 --> 00:51:12.970
to me,

770
00:51:13.270 --> 00:51:13.770
historically,

771
00:51:14.630 --> 00:51:15.369
has been

772
00:51:16.005 --> 00:51:20.185
you send a centralized entity Bitcoin and they send you different Bitcoin.

773
00:51:21.605 --> 00:51:22.425
With CoinJoin

774
00:51:23.180 --> 00:51:28.480
CoinJoin is a fundamentally different process. It's a it's a collaborative Bitcoin transaction.

775
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:31.920
You never actually give up access to your Bitcoin.

776
00:51:32.745 --> 00:51:35.485
You're just doing a Bitcoin transaction with other people

777
00:51:36.025 --> 00:51:38.925
that that takes privacy best practices into account.

778
00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:39.940
Now

779
00:51:40.240 --> 00:51:42.980
that is almost more like legal vernacular.

780
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:46.740
That is gonna matter more in in future legal cases, I think.

781
00:51:48.075 --> 00:51:50.335
But it's important to differentiate here.

782
00:51:50.715 --> 00:51:53.375
Is is Yeah. Is is is the Bitcoin

783
00:51:54.369 --> 00:51:57.589
the Bitcoin that you owned has never actually changed hands.

784
00:51:58.769 --> 00:51:59.589
The probability

785
00:51:59.890 --> 00:52:03.430
of tracking it through the blockchain has become more difficult,

786
00:52:04.545 --> 00:52:05.605
which should not

787
00:52:07.185 --> 00:52:07.685
fundamentally

788
00:52:08.305 --> 00:52:09.525
make a Bitcoin

789
00:52:09.985 --> 00:52:11.605
dirty or unclean.

790
00:52:12.650 --> 00:52:22.664
Yeah. It just it just means that it's, oh, that that that probability analysis that we're you're using to track me without consent in the first place

791
00:52:22.964 --> 00:52:24.744
has become more difficult,

792
00:52:25.684 --> 00:52:27.065
which I think is

793
00:52:30.640 --> 00:52:34.819
insane. I think it's insanity. I think it's pure insanity. But, fundamentally,

794
00:52:35.200 --> 00:52:43.065
at the end of the day, for people on the ground that need to use Bitcoin, that doesn't really necessarily help. You were asking about

795
00:52:45.500 --> 00:52:47.020
Yeah. I will just comment on that.

796
00:52:47.580 --> 00:52:51.280
I apologize. Yeah. Right. You're right. There are some English You don't apologize.

797
00:52:51.580 --> 00:52:56.435
With yeah. But I mean that, it's not only that. It's also that maybe I'm not

798
00:52:56.735 --> 00:52:58.035
very good at technical

799
00:52:58.495 --> 00:52:58.995
moments,

800
00:53:00.735 --> 00:53:01.235
but

801
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:10.405
you you get what I mean? That's, we try to provide safety and we try to do it for good reasons and but the thing is that

802
00:53:10.725 --> 00:53:12.185
they see on those

803
00:53:12.645 --> 00:53:26.250
centralized platforms, they see it as a mixed coins or it's dirty. They call it like dirty They call it that. Yes. I know. And you know you know, it it makes no sense because today, like, you if you receive Bitcoin from anywhere,

804
00:53:26.735 --> 00:53:35.955
you don't know where it comes from. It's like, so many, like, people send it to each other, and in the end, you receive something. We receive money from our donors.

805
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:38.500
So we cannot control where donors

806
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:44.180
get got that Bitcoin. Right? But the but that's yeah. I mean, that's that's

807
00:53:45.545 --> 00:53:51.645
that's the slippery slope. Right? Like, that is that is that is why that is how you end up in a situation

808
00:53:52.345 --> 00:53:52.845
where

809
00:53:53.529 --> 00:53:54.029
individual

810
00:53:54.329 --> 00:53:56.829
p to p, person to person traders

811
00:53:57.450 --> 00:53:59.710
are checking the history of Bitcoin.

812
00:54:00.795 --> 00:54:04.575
Exactly. Because because you just it goes all the way down. It's like

813
00:54:04.955 --> 00:54:07.935
they're afraid that they're not gonna be able to to essentially

814
00:54:08.579 --> 00:54:09.480
sell it wherever

815
00:54:09.859 --> 00:54:13.640
they wanna sell it. Right? Like, that's that's what they're doing. That's their business

816
00:54:14.339 --> 00:54:15.490
Right. Presumably.

817
00:54:17.075 --> 00:54:19.015
You know, Lightning does help.

818
00:54:20.435 --> 00:54:25.735
My understanding with Huddl Huddl is it's on chain only. I don't think they have a Lightning

819
00:54:26.035 --> 00:54:26.535
component.

820
00:54:27.380 --> 00:54:40.015
No. They don't. I mean, that I I keep the money on my, wallet that has a lightning option, but it also has transactions. So So they're checking the on chain history. Like, if you were to spend it to a lightning wallet,

821
00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:43.230
lightning

822
00:54:44.670 --> 00:54:45.970
like everything with Bitcoin,

823
00:54:46.990 --> 00:54:47.490
unfortunately,

824
00:54:47.870 --> 00:54:48.370
requires,

825
00:54:49.905 --> 00:54:50.965
a lot of technical,

826
00:54:51.665 --> 00:54:52.165
understanding

827
00:54:52.545 --> 00:54:57.765
to to figure out where your exposure is. But if you send someone a lightning transaction,

828
00:54:59.750 --> 00:55:03.210
they it's actually worse for the receiver in terms of privacy.

829
00:55:03.910 --> 00:55:04.410
But,

830
00:55:05.350 --> 00:55:10.445
it's better for the sender. So, like, if you send if you send a lightning transaction to someone,

831
00:55:11.704 --> 00:55:12.525
they can't

832
00:55:14.080 --> 00:55:18.020
they can't look back and see what UTX like, what Bitcoin,

833
00:55:19.040 --> 00:55:25.485
funded that lightning transaction or what the history of that big it breaks. It does break that that history analysis.

834
00:55:26.985 --> 00:55:30.045
So, like, I mean and there's a whole another discussion

835
00:55:30.745 --> 00:55:31.885
to be had here,

836
00:55:32.619 --> 00:55:33.440
which is

837
00:55:33.900 --> 00:55:34.800
you've said

838
00:55:35.260 --> 00:55:39.520
that a lot of your donations are, like, in the $50, $100 range.

839
00:55:40.465 --> 00:55:42.245
And as Bitcoin fees go up,

840
00:55:43.505 --> 00:55:48.245
Right. That be that becomes more and more expensive from a percentage point of view.

841
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:50.619
Because Bitcoin on chain fees

842
00:55:51.319 --> 00:55:52.140
are based

843
00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:55.180
are based on absolute amount,

844
00:55:56.345 --> 00:55:59.964
or or or they're they're they're they're based on the data sent,

845
00:56:00.265 --> 00:56:03.244
not the amount of money sent. So for lower

846
00:56:03.545 --> 00:56:04.765
lower amount transactions,

847
00:56:05.220 --> 00:56:10.599
the fees get pretty high percentage wise, while Lightning is just strictly based on percentage.

848
00:56:11.299 --> 00:56:14.519
And so, I mean, I think there is a question, and we can

849
00:56:14.984 --> 00:56:16.925
have this conversation offline.

850
00:56:18.025 --> 00:56:22.525
Sure. But there is a there I I think there's there's a lot of

851
00:56:23.790 --> 00:56:26.370
benefits to accepting lightning donations

852
00:56:26.910 --> 00:56:29.330
and then paying out via lightning.

853
00:56:30.030 --> 00:56:33.985
But, of course, at the end of the day, if if if what you want is dollars or rubles,

854
00:56:35.325 --> 00:56:40.305
there are just not many I I don't know of any real p to p platforms except for Robosats,

855
00:56:41.980 --> 00:56:43.119
that support Lightning.

856
00:56:44.380 --> 00:56:48.000
And that that's really what it comes I think what it comes down to.

857
00:56:48.315 --> 00:56:49.055
And it's

858
00:56:49.994 --> 00:56:50.635
yeah. It's

859
00:56:51.115 --> 00:56:53.375
with CoinJoin, it's it's an interesting

860
00:56:55.120 --> 00:56:58.500
it's an interesting trade off balance because you get better privacy,

861
00:57:00.640 --> 00:57:02.980
but that privacy is known to people.

862
00:57:03.355 --> 00:57:10.414
So people know that you try to achieve privacy. And I actually think there's there's a similarity with encrypted messaging.

863
00:57:10.940 --> 00:57:14.320
Because if you send an encrypted message to someone over signal or something,

864
00:57:15.420 --> 00:57:23.105
if you're doing data analysis, you can tell an encrypted message was sent. You just can't tell what the message was. So you know the participants

865
00:57:23.485 --> 00:57:24.225
want privacy.

866
00:57:25.245 --> 00:57:29.859
You just don't you don't you're not able to track the transaction. You're not able to track the mess

867
00:57:30.180 --> 00:57:31.640
figure out what the message is.

868
00:57:32.339 --> 00:57:37.145
And I don't think that's necessarily a deal breaker, but it's something that people need to keep in mind.

869
00:57:38.325 --> 00:57:38.825
Right.

870
00:57:39.205 --> 00:57:41.065
But yeah. I mean, these are the real

871
00:57:41.765 --> 00:57:43.705
these are the real concerns that we

872
00:57:44.560 --> 00:57:46.180
battle with on a daily basis.

873
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:49.940
Yeah. You know, it also requires a lot of, educational

874
00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:50.820
process.

875
00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:53.140
Yep. I think that's,

876
00:57:53.725 --> 00:57:54.865
there must be

877
00:57:55.405 --> 00:57:56.385
more of educational

878
00:57:56.765 --> 00:57:57.265
platforms,

879
00:57:58.365 --> 00:58:07.090
because it's, like, it's easy to say that, like, switch to Lightning. You should start using Lightning or start receiving Lightning donations. Yeah. But,

880
00:58:07.950 --> 00:58:08.930
at first, we

881
00:58:09.385 --> 00:58:10.765
had to educate people,

882
00:58:11.545 --> 00:58:12.365
about Bitcoin,

883
00:58:12.745 --> 00:58:14.905
what it is, how to use it. And,

884
00:58:15.545 --> 00:58:20.440
many many are still scared to to use it because it's it sounds complicated.

885
00:58:21.220 --> 00:58:25.160
And now we have to explain what Lightning is and that there are special,

886
00:58:26.260 --> 00:58:29.785
wallets and, like, how how to use it. And by the way,

887
00:58:30.325 --> 00:58:32.505
a big issue of all the products,

888
00:58:32.805 --> 00:58:37.080
and many developers don't think about that, And I want to highlight it,

889
00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:42.860
that many of the products are not they don't support different languages.

890
00:58:43.945 --> 00:58:47.885
And, for example, people in Russia mostly don't speak English.

891
00:58:48.425 --> 00:58:49.805
And when they open

892
00:58:50.345 --> 00:58:52.605
a wallet that I recommend them to download,

893
00:58:52.990 --> 00:58:55.170
they open the wallet and it's entirely

894
00:58:55.550 --> 00:58:56.290
in English.

895
00:58:56.910 --> 00:58:59.570
And, also, it's like it's it's complicated

896
00:58:59.950 --> 00:59:12.029
for them even when it's about a seed phrase. It's like 12 English words for for those especially for older people. It's they of course, they will immediately give up. So if,

897
00:59:12.510 --> 00:59:14.369
I encourage people to use Bitcoin

898
00:59:14.910 --> 00:59:19.385
and they download the wallet I recommend and they see that there is no Russian interface,

899
00:59:19.925 --> 00:59:23.305
where they will go? They will go to a centralized platform

900
00:59:23.845 --> 00:59:25.465
which supports different languages.

901
00:59:25.849 --> 00:59:28.670
They will go somewhere where it is more simple

902
00:59:29.130 --> 00:59:29.770
to use,

903
00:59:30.329 --> 00:59:32.510
to Binance or whatever else

904
00:59:32.810 --> 00:59:38.835
just because there is Russian language. And this is a really big issue because just imagine

905
00:59:39.135 --> 00:59:42.420
if you, for example, don't speak Chinese or whatever

906
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:48.180
and you download a wallet that is only in Chinese, are you gonna try to

907
00:59:49.325 --> 00:59:51.025
to translate it,

908
00:59:51.485 --> 00:59:52.465
like, the entire,

909
00:59:54.205 --> 01:00:00.180
wallet, or you will just go somewhere else? Of course, you will go somewhere else, and it's a big issue. And when I talk about,

910
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:02.020
educating people,

911
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:03.380
it's

912
01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:06.740
one of the main issues that should be solved

913
01:00:07.305 --> 01:00:09.405
because it's hard to educate people

914
01:00:09.785 --> 01:00:10.525
how to

915
01:00:11.224 --> 01:00:15.885
about the Bitcoin itself. We should also educate about every

916
01:00:16.430 --> 01:00:18.530
platform, every wallet additionally.

917
01:00:18.830 --> 01:00:19.330
So

918
01:00:20.030 --> 01:00:20.590
teaching about,

919
01:00:21.950 --> 01:00:23.570
Lightning is very important,

920
01:00:24.215 --> 01:00:25.035
but, unfortunately,

921
01:00:25.335 --> 01:00:26.155
it goes

922
01:00:26.535 --> 01:00:27.435
really slow.

923
01:00:28.295 --> 01:00:30.475
And I wish there were more

924
01:00:30.775 --> 01:00:31.995
educational platforms.

925
01:00:32.450 --> 01:00:35.670
Because for now, for example, at the Anti Corruption Foundation,

926
01:00:37.410 --> 01:00:41.589
we don't have so much time to teach people about Bitcoin. You know, we have our

927
01:00:41.985 --> 01:00:42.485
focus,

928
01:00:42.945 --> 01:00:45.605
our projects are very different. We are,

929
01:00:45.985 --> 01:00:46.785
aimed at,

930
01:00:47.185 --> 01:00:48.245
political projects.

931
01:00:49.025 --> 01:00:55.040
But we have to we have to educate our donors. So we created a Bitcoin instruction for our donors,

932
01:00:55.420 --> 01:00:57.760
and, you can find it on our website.

933
01:00:58.300 --> 01:01:02.705
And in the beginning, I wrote a huge instruction. It was, like, 21 pages

934
01:01:03.165 --> 01:01:03.665
explaining

935
01:01:03.965 --> 01:01:08.224
the difference between custodial and noncustodial wallets, the difference between platforms,

936
01:01:09.090 --> 01:01:12.710
why it is important not to leave your personal data, and blah blah blah.

937
01:01:13.170 --> 01:01:19.475
But my team, they told me, like, no. It's too much. It's gonna scare people. It's gonna scare your donors.

938
01:01:19.855 --> 01:01:21.635
You should make it shorter

939
01:01:22.015 --> 01:01:28.760
and easier. So I had to remove a lot of very important information from our Bitcoin instruction.

940
01:01:29.220 --> 01:01:31.799
And I wish that there were more educational

941
01:01:32.695 --> 01:01:34.235
sources, Russian speaking,

942
01:01:36.695 --> 01:01:39.995
for for for the people inside the country.

943
01:01:41.010 --> 01:01:41.510
Yeah.

944
01:01:42.690 --> 01:01:44.150
Yeah. I mean, that is definitely

945
01:01:47.865 --> 01:01:48.925
it's it's definitely

946
01:01:49.545 --> 01:01:51.485
a pain point that we have,

947
01:01:52.825 --> 01:01:56.045
and it's it's gonna take time. It's a it's a time thing.

948
01:01:56.930 --> 01:01:57.990
I do wonder,

949
01:02:00.930 --> 01:02:01.910
like, how much

950
01:02:03.490 --> 01:02:05.675
AI can help with some of this stuff

951
01:02:08.395 --> 01:02:09.455
or, like, basic

952
01:02:09.755 --> 01:02:11.135
basic AI tools?

953
01:02:13.640 --> 01:02:15.660
I don't know what people trust more.

954
01:02:16.040 --> 01:02:19.020
What if they trust, like, a real human being

955
01:02:19.640 --> 01:02:22.380
talking on YouTube about different tools

956
01:02:23.095 --> 01:02:24.555
or just translated

957
01:02:25.095 --> 01:02:25.595
information.

958
01:02:26.135 --> 01:02:28.235
I think that there must be

959
01:02:28.775 --> 01:02:29.835
real educators.

960
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:36.380
And, actually, not many people know about lightning. When I was searching for some good educational

961
01:02:37.240 --> 01:02:38.755
sources in Russian,

962
01:02:39.215 --> 01:02:41.075
I don't find a lot about lightning.

963
01:02:42.175 --> 01:02:42.655
It's,

964
01:02:43.135 --> 01:02:47.395
it's a big issue. Not a lot there's not a lot of lot in the west either.

965
01:02:48.160 --> 01:02:48.660
Exactly.

966
01:02:49.359 --> 01:02:50.000
I think,

967
01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:55.140
but where I was going with that is, like, for instance, like, I refuse to use chat gpt,

968
01:02:56.135 --> 01:02:59.675
or anything Sam Altman makes at OpenAI because I think,

969
01:03:01.335 --> 01:03:03.435
he's a force of evil for the world.

970
01:03:03.770 --> 01:03:04.829
But my understanding

971
01:03:05.130 --> 01:03:10.109
right now is, like, if I if I were to use his tools, I could take this show,

972
01:03:10.410 --> 01:03:11.950
and I could take every episode,

973
01:03:12.405 --> 01:03:16.744
and I can translate into any language I want. And it looks like we are speaking

974
01:03:17.125 --> 01:03:18.345
it in the language.

975
01:03:19.910 --> 01:03:25.849
And and, you know, obviously, it's not better it's it's it's it's strictly worse

976
01:03:26.309 --> 01:03:27.849
than having an authentic

977
01:03:28.150 --> 01:03:28.650
Russian

978
01:03:28.950 --> 01:03:32.315
speaker or an authentic Chinese speaker, an authentic

979
01:03:32.855 --> 01:03:33.835
Spanish speaker

980
01:03:34.535 --> 01:03:35.435
trying to,

981
01:03:36.695 --> 01:03:41.860
to talk to their audience and and try and and help with education. But I I do think it will help

982
01:03:42.560 --> 01:03:46.820
at least it helps the beginning phases. It's like it it could help

983
01:03:47.335 --> 01:03:53.755
early on. But I I will say, like, from a wallet point of view I mean, look. Even in English English speaking languages,

984
01:03:54.590 --> 01:03:59.730
like, we've made a lot of progress on the tools, on the wallets. When I first started working with HRF

985
01:04:00.430 --> 01:04:01.490
and the activists,

986
01:04:02.030 --> 01:04:04.050
that the Human Rights Foundation supports,

987
01:04:05.375 --> 01:04:07.315
was was over 5 years ago.

988
01:04:08.015 --> 01:04:12.035
And I remember the tools that we were trying to use with

989
01:04:12.390 --> 01:04:12.890
them,

990
01:04:13.190 --> 01:04:15.369
and it was very diff in English.

991
01:04:16.390 --> 01:04:22.945
Mhmm. It was very difficult. And we've come a really long way in 5 years, And it's it's really hard to

992
01:04:25.885 --> 01:04:37.755
you know, it it feels like it's not enough. It feels like it's not enough that time is of the essence when you talk to people who need it today. They need it today. They need they need better tools. They need better education. They need it today.

993
01:04:38.295 --> 01:04:39.195
Otherwise, you know,

994
01:04:39.975 --> 01:04:47.240
how are they gonna eat this week? Or how are they gonna support their family this week? It's it's actually a a problem that needs to be solved ASAP.

995
01:04:48.420 --> 01:04:53.800
Right. But it it's a time thing. It's a time thing, and it's super frustrating to watch on watch unfold.

996
01:04:54.705 --> 01:04:58.565
Right. And, that is why I decided to join HRF, actually.

997
01:05:00.225 --> 01:05:03.125
1 month ago, I joined, as I mentioned already,

998
01:05:03.505 --> 01:05:04.245
as a

999
01:05:04.580 --> 01:05:06.760
nonprofit Bitcoin adoption lead,

1000
01:05:07.460 --> 01:05:10.760
because I believe that education is important,

1001
01:05:11.220 --> 01:05:16.655
and I have a lot of valuable experience in this field of nonprofits using Bitcoin.

1002
01:05:17.035 --> 01:05:23.460
And I think that I can share it with the other nonprofits who who are facing the same problems

1003
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:24.500
globally,

1004
01:05:25.520 --> 01:05:29.060
all over the world. There are so many who fight against dictatorships

1005
01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:34.195
or who are just deprived of access to the banking system, to traditional currencies.

1006
01:05:34.655 --> 01:05:35.155
And,

1007
01:05:35.695 --> 01:05:40.200
at least this way, I can help someone. I can educate someone.

1008
01:05:40.580 --> 01:05:49.240
I'm not ready to start any, like, big educational project like, YouTube channel or something like that. But I I want to

1009
01:05:49.845 --> 01:05:51.305
invest my time and efforts

1010
01:05:51.605 --> 01:05:53.605
into teaching other,

1011
01:05:54.085 --> 01:05:56.184
human rights defenders and freedom fighters

1012
01:05:56.484 --> 01:05:58.070
how to use Bitcoin. And,

1013
01:05:59.030 --> 01:05:59.990
right now, we have,

1014
01:06:01.030 --> 01:06:02.410
withdrawn a webinar.

1015
01:06:03.030 --> 01:06:04.410
It's 5 days webinar

1016
01:06:06.015 --> 01:06:07.075
at the HRF

1017
01:06:07.454 --> 01:06:08.194
for NGOs.

1018
01:06:08.654 --> 01:06:13.075
Today was the 3rd day already, and many many people joined us actually.

1019
01:06:13.454 --> 01:06:13.954
And

1020
01:06:14.990 --> 01:06:17.330
we we teach them we explain how to,

1021
01:06:18.590 --> 01:06:24.925
use Bitcoin, and also we're gonna teach them how to use BTCPA server to collect donations in a safe way.

1022
01:06:25.305 --> 01:06:28.525
So, yeah, I just wanted to link it to the educational,

1023
01:06:29.705 --> 01:06:30.840
topic that's

1024
01:06:31.160 --> 01:06:33.660
I I believe it's crucial. And that is why

1025
01:06:34.040 --> 01:06:35.740
I joined the organization.

1026
01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:44.815
Yeah. That's wonderful. I mean, just an example, right, is is when I first started working with activists through the Human Rights Foundation,

1027
01:06:45.835 --> 01:06:49.055
training them how to use Bitcoin, BTC Pacer did not exist.

1028
01:06:49.755 --> 01:06:50.255
Yeah.

1029
01:06:51.589 --> 01:06:52.970
Which is crazy.

1030
01:06:53.750 --> 01:06:55.289
It's such an important project,

1031
01:06:56.309 --> 01:06:59.849
and I'm so grateful for the contributors over there. I would say, Anna,

1032
01:07:01.805 --> 01:07:04.065
you have always been an inspiration to me.

1033
01:07:04.605 --> 01:07:09.370
I your I your work speaks for itself. You put yourself and your family at great risk

1034
01:07:10.890 --> 01:07:12.110
doing what you do.

1035
01:07:13.450 --> 01:07:17.070
And, yes, I agree with you that we always feel like we can do more.

1036
01:07:18.525 --> 01:07:19.025
But

1037
01:07:20.365 --> 01:07:25.425
you you have you have done amazing work, and and you should be proud you should be proud of the work you've done.

1038
01:07:26.109 --> 01:07:27.810
Thank you. Thank you so much.

1039
01:07:29.790 --> 01:07:30.609
Yeah. Go.

1040
01:07:31.310 --> 01:07:31.970
All you.

1041
01:07:32.750 --> 01:07:33.250
Okay.

1042
01:07:34.465 --> 01:07:34.965
Yeah.

1043
01:07:35.425 --> 01:07:37.285
I would like as many people,

1044
01:07:39.025 --> 01:07:40.385
as many as I can,

1045
01:07:41.025 --> 01:07:42.485
to inform about

1046
01:07:43.060 --> 01:07:44.280
these use cases,

1047
01:07:44.900 --> 01:07:46.680
and I'm very happy that,

1048
01:07:47.220 --> 01:07:50.360
Alex Gladstein is doing that and that he really,

1049
01:07:50.765 --> 01:07:52.545
like, expanded this community

1050
01:07:52.925 --> 01:07:57.345
and that he brings all of, you know, this, human rights activist together

1051
01:07:57.885 --> 01:08:06.110
and shows to the world that we really need Bitcoin. We really use it in our work and that we really fight against dictatorships

1052
01:08:06.944 --> 01:08:08.244
with the help of Bitcoin.

1053
01:08:08.704 --> 01:08:10.164
And it's so great that,

1054
01:08:11.664 --> 01:08:14.565
with, your help for, like, going to,

1055
01:08:16.065 --> 01:08:23.409
being at your podcast, going to some events, speaking at different conferences. And, over the past 2 years, I already

1056
01:08:23.765 --> 01:08:29.145
gave a talk about this, our about our use case at so many Bitcoin conferences,

1057
01:08:29.525 --> 01:08:33.699
and I made so many great contacts contacts, with the developers.

1058
01:08:34.480 --> 01:08:39.139
And, I use many tools that I learned about at this kind of events.

1059
01:08:40.635 --> 01:08:41.135
So,

1060
01:08:41.675 --> 01:08:43.215
yeah, I'm very

1061
01:08:44.955 --> 01:08:49.135
thankful. I appreciated that you invited me here to to the podcast.

1062
01:08:49.450 --> 01:08:50.110
So maybe,

1063
01:08:50.570 --> 01:08:56.989
with your help, some people will reach out to me to share their ideas. I already see some of them,

1064
01:08:57.610 --> 01:08:58.430
in the chat.

1065
01:08:59.745 --> 01:09:00.245
Some

1066
01:09:00.945 --> 01:09:06.180
some say for example, I see the message about BISC that we should start start using BISC,

1067
01:09:06.660 --> 01:09:08.040
And it's it's,

1068
01:09:09.140 --> 01:09:09.640
about

1069
01:09:10.340 --> 01:09:10.840
that,

1070
01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:13.080
tools that are not very

1071
01:09:13.435 --> 01:09:14.655
easy to use.

1072
01:09:15.355 --> 01:09:16.415
It's a great tool

1073
01:09:16.795 --> 01:09:18.494
and I use the platform, but

1074
01:09:19.275 --> 01:09:22.735
it's really hard to explain this tool, for example, to my mom

1075
01:09:23.090 --> 01:09:23.590
or

1076
01:09:24.290 --> 01:09:25.590
to to someone else.

1077
01:09:26.050 --> 01:09:28.470
So yeah. But, anyway, any ideas

1078
01:09:28.930 --> 01:09:29.590
are appreciated,

1079
01:09:29.970 --> 01:09:30.290
and,

1080
01:09:30.930 --> 01:09:32.630
I I think you will leave my contact

1081
01:09:33.475 --> 01:09:33.975
somewhere,

1082
01:09:34.515 --> 01:09:36.215
and maybe someone can

1083
01:09:36.675 --> 01:09:37.475
reach Yes.

1084
01:09:38.114 --> 01:09:40.614
Out to me and share the ideas.

1085
01:09:41.390 --> 01:09:45.810
I will put your contact information in the show notes. I will also put links to

1086
01:09:46.110 --> 01:09:49.090
the Anti Corruption Foundation in the show notes and HRF.

1087
01:09:51.615 --> 01:09:56.275
Yeah. We're working on the tools. I mean, I know I I just saw you recently at

1088
01:09:56.895 --> 01:09:59.875
a Human Rights Foundation retreat that we did.

1089
01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:04.020
I had Cali recently on the podcast

1090
01:10:04.400 --> 01:10:05.140
of Cashew,

1091
01:10:06.320 --> 01:10:09.940
who you you had the privilege to meet at that most recent retreat.

1092
01:10:10.514 --> 01:10:14.775
I think what his work is doing on the on the privacy side

1093
01:10:15.395 --> 01:10:19.014
is absolutely massive. I think that could be completely, very useful.

1094
01:10:19.930 --> 01:10:23.070
Bisc is an awesome project. I will say Bisc is

1095
01:10:23.690 --> 01:10:24.990
still on chain.

1096
01:10:26.490 --> 01:10:27.850
There there is I

1097
01:10:29.435 --> 01:10:32.495
we can talk about this offline, but I I really like Robosats.

1098
01:10:33.595 --> 01:10:34.495
Yeah. Robosats

1099
01:10:34.875 --> 01:10:36.495
is a lightning first,

1100
01:10:36.955 --> 01:10:38.575
exchange for smaller amounts

1101
01:10:39.030 --> 01:10:42.010
for smaller amounts interacting with, fiat currencies,

1102
01:10:43.030 --> 01:10:53.485
it can be very helpful. Actually actually, I know that Go on. Sorry. I just wanted to say that I know that there is a huge Russian community that using Robosets. It's very popular in Russia.

1103
01:10:54.184 --> 01:10:55.645
So I should consider,

1104
01:10:56.824 --> 01:10:58.125
learning more about that.

1105
01:10:58.650 --> 01:11:03.210
Yeah. Robosets is but it it's interesting. Right? Because, like, BISC is,

1106
01:11:05.290 --> 01:11:07.390
BISC is a is a little bit more,

1107
01:11:11.115 --> 01:11:13.055
it's a little bit more censorship resistant.

1108
01:11:14.075 --> 01:11:20.080
It's it's it's it tries to be as decentralized as possible, while while Robosats kinda took a user,

1109
01:11:21.420 --> 01:11:27.040
user interface first approach. And the founders are completely anonymous, and it all runs through Tor.

1110
01:11:28.145 --> 01:11:31.525
And that that has worked for them, and it has worked for them really well.

1111
01:11:33.745 --> 01:11:34.245
I,

1112
01:11:34.785 --> 01:11:37.045
am by the way, am I gonna see you in Oslo?

1113
01:11:37.969 --> 01:11:38.469
Yes.

1114
01:11:38.929 --> 01:11:43.830
Awesome. Okay. I'm I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. To all the Bitcoiners out there, by the way,

1115
01:11:44.345 --> 01:11:46.125
Like, the Oslo Freedom Forum,

1116
01:11:47.385 --> 01:11:49.885
is open to public. There there is a

1117
01:11:50.185 --> 01:11:52.285
financial freedom track that is

1118
01:11:52.620 --> 01:11:54.000
focused heavily on Bitcoin.

1119
01:11:55.179 --> 01:11:56.719
It is probably one of,

1120
01:11:57.580 --> 01:11:59.360
the most inspiring, fulfilling,

1121
01:12:00.540 --> 01:12:06.594
Bitcoin events of the year. And it's because it's not specifically a Bitcoin event. It's a freedom event.

1122
01:12:09.215 --> 01:12:15.090
Yeah. Right. And I'm gonna I'm I'm I'm gonna do a workshop there together with Ben Perin.

1123
01:12:16.510 --> 01:12:17.810
We're gonna help sessions.

1124
01:12:18.190 --> 01:12:19.810
BTC sessions. Right?

1125
01:12:20.535 --> 01:12:24.475
And we're gonna, I'm gonna answer the questions of activists actually

1126
01:12:24.935 --> 01:12:26.074
on our Bitcoin

1127
01:12:26.375 --> 01:12:30.155
use case, and I'm gonna help them to implement it in their work.

1128
01:12:30.750 --> 01:12:31.250
Yeah.

1129
01:12:32.910 --> 01:12:35.410
I see before we wrap, I see a comment,

1130
01:12:36.350 --> 01:12:38.449
from rider die freak wide,

1131
01:12:40.145 --> 01:12:40.645
asking,

1132
01:12:41.905 --> 01:12:53.159
are you aware of Bitcoin censorship actions that are happening to just, like, average people in Russia that are not necessarily donating to charities? They're just, like, using it on a day to day basis.

1133
01:12:54.659 --> 01:12:55.560
Bitcoin censorship?

1134
01:12:56.420 --> 01:12:56.920
Yeah.

1135
01:12:57.685 --> 01:12:59.764
Like, is is is the Russian regime

1136
01:13:00.885 --> 01:13:10.739
are they are they besides, like, specific entities like yourself, like, are they actually are they, like, cracking down on Bitcoin over there? Or, like, what are you familiar or no?

1137
01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:15.155
Not yet. I mean, they haven't banned it,

1138
01:13:15.855 --> 01:13:16.355
but

1139
01:13:16.815 --> 01:13:16.895
they,

1140
01:13:18.415 --> 01:13:20.675
there is a law that says that Bitcoin,

1141
01:13:21.620 --> 01:13:26.200
is illegal for as a payment tool. You cannot pay with Bitcoin,

1142
01:13:27.220 --> 01:13:29.000
but, it's not illegal.

1143
01:13:29.380 --> 01:13:32.475
You can I mean, you can you can use it, you can,

1144
01:13:33.515 --> 01:13:41.369
make transactions, you can exchange it? It's still legal, fortunately, because I know that there are some countries where you cannot do anything with Bitcoin.

1145
01:13:42.150 --> 01:13:45.530
But, fortunately, in Russia, we can still operate with Bitcoin.

1146
01:13:46.614 --> 01:13:48.394
But, Russian banks,

1147
01:13:49.094 --> 01:13:54.954
when, for example, we make a transaction in Bitcoin and then the recipient of funds try to

1148
01:13:55.720 --> 01:13:57.340
exchange it into fiat.

1149
01:13:58.200 --> 01:13:58.360
And,

1150
01:13:59.160 --> 01:14:00.540
if the recipient

1151
01:14:00.840 --> 01:14:04.460
mentions that this is money from a Bitcoin transaction,

1152
01:14:04.865 --> 01:14:08.085
so the bank will freeze the bank account, will just block it.

1153
01:14:08.385 --> 01:14:15.590
So the problem is mostly with the banks today. So I recommend not to mention that this money is from Bitcoin,

1154
01:14:16.530 --> 01:14:17.030
transactions.

1155
01:14:18.610 --> 01:14:19.350
Fair enough.

1156
01:14:20.290 --> 01:14:22.710
To answer your question, ride or die freak,

1157
01:14:25.695 --> 01:14:27.875
mother from Australia, Pringle Stacks,

1158
01:14:28.735 --> 01:14:34.250
what is the date of Oslo Freedom Forum this year? It's June 3rd through 5th. It's the 1st week of June. Right.

1159
01:14:35.030 --> 01:14:36.810
Consider it. Oslo is also,

1160
01:14:38.230 --> 01:14:42.055
Norway is a a a an incredible country. The people are

1161
01:14:42.935 --> 01:14:44.315
are are very nice.

1162
01:14:45.815 --> 01:14:50.155
The city of Oslo is a beautiful city. I will give you the one

1163
01:14:51.190 --> 01:14:56.330
caveat that it is one of the most expensive places I've ever visited in the world.

1164
01:14:57.110 --> 01:15:02.615
So just keep that in mind. But it's it'd be well worth your time if you make it out there.

1165
01:15:02.995 --> 01:15:03.495
Yeah.

1166
01:15:04.035 --> 01:15:09.095
The the Winners Day will be on the 5th. The 5th June will be full day.

1167
01:15:09.630 --> 01:15:11.150
Yes. In the end. And,

1168
01:15:12.190 --> 01:15:18.205
the list of speakers is very impressive this year. I recommend to check the list of headliners.

1169
01:15:19.065 --> 01:15:27.719
And, yeah, last 2 years, it was amazing. So I highly recommend it. Signal. It's really good. And but don't come just for the Bitcoin part.

1170
01:15:28.020 --> 01:15:33.400
Like, it's important to be there for the for the Yeah. It's true. 2 days before that as well because,

1171
01:15:34.635 --> 01:15:38.815
the stories you hear, the the conversations you have is, in my opinion,

1172
01:15:39.675 --> 01:15:41.695
why I focus so much time

1173
01:15:42.150 --> 01:15:42.970
on this movement.

1174
01:15:43.430 --> 01:15:47.370
And it's about freedom for people. It's about freedom for individuals around the world.

1175
01:15:47.750 --> 01:15:50.170
And it's it's it's the fact of the matter

1176
01:15:50.715 --> 01:15:51.215
that

1177
01:15:51.675 --> 01:15:53.215
people are living their life,

1178
01:15:54.955 --> 01:15:56.815
in a way that requires permission

1179
01:15:57.435 --> 01:15:59.695
from other people that they do not know,

1180
01:16:00.110 --> 01:16:03.410
and they shouldn't have to live that way. They should be able to live their life without permission.

1181
01:16:04.350 --> 01:16:14.915
You know, I heard from many Bitcoiners that they special like this event because it's not Bitcoin only, and that they prefer to come for the entire thing to listen to all of those stories.

1182
01:16:15.370 --> 01:16:16.510
Because, it's

1183
01:16:16.890 --> 01:16:20.830
mind blowing to learn what's happening in different regions in the world.

1184
01:16:21.290 --> 01:16:23.070
Yeah. Some stories are really insane.

1185
01:16:24.005 --> 01:16:28.105
Yeah. I don't travel for Bitcoin events anymore, but I'll be in Oslo.

1186
01:16:28.805 --> 01:16:30.025
Great. Okay.

1187
01:16:30.645 --> 01:16:35.660
I, Anna, this has been fantastic. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for talking

1188
01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:38.220
about the very hard topics.

1189
01:16:39.400 --> 01:16:43.395
Do you have anything you have any final thoughts for the audience before we wrap?

1190
01:16:45.295 --> 01:16:47.395
Yeah. I mean, as I mentioned before,

1191
01:16:47.909 --> 01:16:49.290
I would love any

1192
01:16:49.750 --> 01:16:51.210
feedback, any ideas,

1193
01:16:52.389 --> 01:16:55.929
or if you want to learn more, I'm very open to share

1194
01:16:56.310 --> 01:16:57.530
about our work.

1195
01:16:58.095 --> 01:17:00.555
I would appreciate any support and,

1196
01:17:02.135 --> 01:17:02.935
yeah, just

1197
01:17:03.415 --> 01:17:05.835
you can reach out to me anytime and

1198
01:17:06.695 --> 01:17:12.180
keep keep promoting ideas of Bitcoin and keep boosting adoption of it. As you can see,

1199
01:17:12.720 --> 01:17:14.900
we really use it in a fight,

1200
01:17:15.364 --> 01:17:18.505
for freedom. We really use it in a fight against dictatorships.

1201
01:17:19.125 --> 01:17:20.744
So your contribution

1202
01:17:21.205 --> 01:17:24.025
is very important, and if you create some tools

1203
01:17:24.460 --> 01:17:25.920
in the, in this field,

1204
01:17:27.100 --> 01:17:30.960
it's very important that you remember about people like us.

1205
01:17:31.500 --> 01:17:32.000
And,

1206
01:17:32.985 --> 01:17:39.005
yeah. Generally, if you spread ideas of Bitcoin, you already boost the adoption of Bitcoin. And it's it's cool,

1207
01:17:39.545 --> 01:17:43.270
and I appreciate it a lot. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

1208
01:17:43.730 --> 01:17:47.989
Wonderful. Thank you, Anna. I hope to see you soon. Thanks, Fries, for joining us.

1209
01:17:49.570 --> 01:17:50.070
Bye.

1210
01:20:38.520 --> 01:20:43.820
All I can say is that my life is pretty plain.

1211
01:20:44.440 --> 01:20:48.605
You don't like my point of view. You do a lot of insane.

1212
01:20:50.665 --> 01:20:51.565
It's not

1213
01:20:52.425 --> 01:20:52.925
sane.

1214
01:20:54.025 --> 01:20:54.980
It's not

1215
01:20:56.079 --> 01:20:56.579
saying.

1216
01:21:58.675 --> 01:21:59.574
Love you, freaks.

1217
01:22:00.420 --> 01:22:01.000
I hope

1218
01:22:01.300 --> 01:22:01.800
you

1219
01:22:02.260 --> 01:22:03.480
enjoyed that rip,

1220
01:22:03.940 --> 01:22:05.160
and as a fucking legend.

1221
01:22:05.780 --> 01:22:06.580
That track,

1222
01:22:07.060 --> 01:22:09.160
was no rain by Blood Melon.

1223
01:22:11.445 --> 01:22:13.465
I like to just mix it up for you,

1224
01:22:14.005 --> 01:22:15.465
and I was feeling it today.

1225
01:22:17.525 --> 01:22:18.265
Next week.

1226
01:22:18.725 --> 01:22:19.545
Big week.

1227
01:22:20.430 --> 01:22:22.370
We're just gonna keep the big weeks coming.

1228
01:22:24.670 --> 01:22:28.610
Well, until we don't. And then I'll take a break for a little bit.

1229
01:22:29.245 --> 01:22:31.025
But next week, we got Tuesday,

1230
01:22:32.285 --> 01:22:35.425
1500 UTC, so 2 hours earlier than usual.

1231
01:22:35.965 --> 01:22:38.305
We have Kieran from ZapStream joining us,

1232
01:22:39.310 --> 01:22:40.050
and Snort,

1233
01:22:40.990 --> 01:22:41.490
prolific

1234
01:22:41.950 --> 01:22:42.450
developer.

1235
01:22:43.470 --> 01:22:46.190
If you listen to the livestream, it would not be possible,

1236
01:22:47.685 --> 01:22:55.224
and you participate in the live chat. It would not be possible without Karen. What a fucking boss. So I'm pretty excited about that. And then Wednesday,

1237
01:22:56.470 --> 01:22:57.930
at our usual time, 1700

1238
01:22:58.230 --> 01:22:58.730
UTC,

1239
01:22:59.110 --> 01:23:00.010
I have Ben

1240
01:23:00.390 --> 01:23:03.130
Arc, one of the legends of Bitcoin and Noster,

1241
01:23:04.145 --> 01:23:07.605
joining us to talk Alan Bits, talk Bitcoin, talk Noster.

1242
01:23:08.465 --> 01:23:11.844
It'd be a really great conversation. I'm I'm really excited about it.

1243
01:23:13.659 --> 01:23:14.159
Yeah.

1244
01:23:14.699 --> 01:23:15.179
And,

1245
01:23:17.980 --> 01:23:22.265
the top supporters of the week have barely changed since yesterday,

1246
01:23:24.565 --> 01:23:27.145
which is fair on the back to back rips.

1247
01:23:28.380 --> 01:23:31.519
Boston Wine has joined the party with 21,000

1248
01:23:31.820 --> 01:23:32.320
sets

1249
01:23:32.780 --> 01:23:34.400
that he contributed last week.

1250
01:23:36.125 --> 01:23:39.344
Huge shout out to all the freaks who continue to support the show. Thank you.

1251
01:23:41.405 --> 01:23:45.344
I try and practice what I preach. I wanna make value for value a thing.

1252
01:23:47.250 --> 01:23:54.230
And the easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps like Fountain or Breeze or joining us in the live chat.

1253
01:23:57.125 --> 01:23:57.625
Yeah.

1254
01:23:58.165 --> 01:23:58.985
I think,

1255
01:24:00.005 --> 01:24:00.505
ultimately,

1256
01:24:01.765 --> 01:24:03.145
that's where we're going.

1257
01:24:04.080 --> 01:24:06.500
Neighbors helping neighbors, people helping people,

1258
01:24:07.200 --> 01:24:10.820
supporting each other without centralized entities in between.

1259
01:24:13.035 --> 01:24:15.775
But I think there is obviously a place

1260
01:24:18.500 --> 01:24:22.599
for centralized entities to kinda bootstrap the process and speed it up

1261
01:24:22.900 --> 01:24:24.679
because I have low time preference,

1262
01:24:25.139 --> 01:24:27.079
but I'm tired of fucking waiting,

1263
01:24:29.364 --> 01:24:33.385
which is why open sets exist, which is why 1031 exists.

1264
01:24:33.844 --> 01:24:36.824
And if you support the show through podcasting 2 point o apps,

1265
01:24:37.250 --> 01:24:39.349
5% go directly to open sats,

1266
01:24:40.449 --> 01:24:45.270
and a 100% of that goes directly to open source contributors to try and speed up the movement.

1267
01:24:46.275 --> 01:24:47.335
I love you all.

1268
01:24:47.955 --> 01:24:49.575
I know sats are scarce,

1269
01:24:50.115 --> 01:24:52.215
the only thing more scarce than our time.

1270
01:24:53.239 --> 01:24:55.660
So as always, if you can't support the show

1271
01:24:56.360 --> 01:24:58.699
with sats, if you can't spare any sats,

1272
01:25:00.095 --> 01:25:09.395
just subscribing on your favorite platform, sharing it with friends and family, leaving a review. It really does help, and it keeps me going because I'm just a fucking person.

1273
01:25:10.520 --> 01:25:11.020
Not

1274
01:25:11.360 --> 01:25:11.860
like

1275
01:25:12.200 --> 01:25:13.340
a not a magician.

1276
01:25:14.840 --> 01:25:15.980
Not, you know,

1277
01:25:16.840 --> 01:25:18.300
just a random person.

1278
01:25:19.245 --> 01:25:20.225
Anyway, freaks,

1279
01:25:21.325 --> 01:25:26.465
I love you all. I'll see you next week. Well, tomorrow's Robert Hill recap if you wanna join for that.

1280
01:25:27.300 --> 01:25:30.040
We're doing that that usual time, 1800 UTC.

1281
01:25:30.980 --> 01:25:33.080
But I love you all, and I'll see you next week.

1282
01:25:33.565 --> 01:25:35.665
And stay humble, Stack Sats. Peace.