CD140: OCEAN MINING WITH LUKE, MARK, JASON, AND MECHANIC

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Created: 10/08/2024 14:19:53
Duration: 6211.562
Channels: 1

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By March 2017,

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WikiLeaks had exposed the CIA's infiltration of French political parties.

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It's spying on French and German leaders.

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It's spying on the European Central Bank,

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European Economics Ministries,

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and its standing orders to spy on French industry as a whole.

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We revealed the CIA's vast production of malware and viruses,

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its subversion of supply chains,

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its subversion of antivirus software,

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cars, smart TVs, and iPhones.

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CIA director Pompeo

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launched a campaign of retribution.

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It is now a matter of public record that under Pompeo's explicit direction,

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the CIA

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drew up plans to kidnap and to assassinate me within the Ecuadorian embassy in London

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and authorized going after my European colleagues,

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subjecting us to theft, hacking attacks,

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and the planting of false information.

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My wife and my infant son were also targeted.

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A CIA asset

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was permanently assigned to track my wife, and instructions were given to obtain DNA from my 6 month old sons, Nappy.

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This is the testimony

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of more than 30 current and former US intelligence officials speaking to the US press,

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which has been additionally corroborated by record seized

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in the prosecution bought against some of the CIA agents involved.

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The CIA is targeting of myself, my family,

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and my associates through aggressive extrajudicial

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and extraterritorial

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means

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provides a rare insight

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into how powerful intelligence organizations

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engage in transnational

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repression.

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Good Monday.

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It's your host, Odell here

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for another Citadel Dispatch.

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The interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro

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clip you just heard was Julian Assange,

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speaking for the first time since he's been a free man,

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quite the indictment

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on the US intelligence services,

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and I I have to give him a lot of credit for being out there in public after everything he's been through.

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If I was him, I

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would have taken a little bit more time off, but,

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he's a man who who cannot

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be stopped. But anyway, with all that said,

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we have a great group joining us today. We will be talking about

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the newest mining pool to enter the Bitcoin fray,

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ocean mining, with a focus on trying to solve a lot of the mining centralization

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issues

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that we've seen crop up.

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I have multiple guys from the team here.

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We have we have, we have Mark who's one of the cofounders of Ocean. How's it going, Mark?

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Hey. Pretty good, Matt. Thanks for having me. It's a it's a pleasure. And I think we have Luke here. I don't know if we have Luke here. Luke, are you here? Yep.

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Nice.

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2 so that's 2 of the 3 cofounders.

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The 3rd cofounder,

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isn't joining us today, but we have,

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Bitcoin Mechanic who's been kind of the face of the operation. How's it going, Mechanic?

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Yeah. Real good, man. Thanks for having us. What's your official title, mechanic?

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Chief Boiling Officer.

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Chief Boiling Officer in charge of boiling the oceans.

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And, we have Jason here who's

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who's, like,

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kind of low key one of the most important people at Ocean, I believe, I think over there doing a lot of the lot of the hard behind the scenes work. How's it going, Jason? Alright.

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Awesome. And Jason, by the way, has one of the best backgrounds,

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we've had in dispatch history,

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because he appears to just simply being in Forrest.

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I'm actually just outside.

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Fair enough. Well, you sound great. You probably have the best mic quality out of all of us.

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So guys, I don't know where to start. I think,

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the best place to start

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is,

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why Ocean and,

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like why are you guys doing what you're doing

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and why should people care and I guess we'll kick that off to mechanic since,

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he's gotten quite good at this.

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Thanks. Yeah. Why Ocean? Because Bitcoin mining has really become more and more centralized

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over the years. It's not what it was a long time ago. It's a very far cry from how it was described in the white paper and what we envisioned here. It's become bifurcated. It's become the separate element of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

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There's none of those,

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principles like not your keys, not your coins, don't trust, verify.

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In mining, there's been a whole lot of trust. There's been a whole lot of closed source everything.

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There's been a whole lot of centralization

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around manufacturers.

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And it's just been its own thing, and it's gone off into, you know, crypto kind of territory that just doesn't carry with it the same kind of ethos that exists in the Huddl culture.

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So,

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we came around trying to say, we need to fix this.

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You can't come up with naive solutions either, like saying everyone just needs to solar mine, and that's it.

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Never even use a pool. You have to come up with a pool that wants to allow miners

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to take their sovereignty back without having to make over the top self sacrifices for it, like wait 3 years to solo miner block and, you know, get all the rewards themselves.

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That's not realistic for most miners. So they're gonna have to pool together.

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But how much the pool does

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is entirely up to the ethos of the people running the pool and the demands made by miners.

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So when it come to Ocean, we're saying we don't wanna hold your coins.

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We wanna pay you out when we solve blocks. We also don't want to have control what goes in the blockchain. We want that to be your decision as well.

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All we want to do is coordinate reward splits. And by the way, we don't want to do that in an opaque manner. We want everyone to know what those splits are and how we got there. We want you to be able to verify all that.

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There are lots of principles that we could adhere to,

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and we have done.

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But far and away, the biggest thing about what it is we wanna do is make miners actually construct templates

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on the miner side rather than on the, you know, request. Even if the pool gives you multiple options for what you might like, we don't wanna be the ones even selecting that stuff.

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And we wanna push it out one rung because there's only so many pools you can have. Right? I'll round off at this point. You can't have more than, let's say, optimistically, you can have a 100 pools out there. That's about the best you can do. After that variant

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and,

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we'll just sold online. So if pools are making templates, that means you necessarily have, at most, a 100 people in the world deciding what gets in the blockchain. That's not decentralized.

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So you have to push it out one rung and say, well, it's the miners actually, because there are tens of thousands of mining operations. There's only a 100 or so pools. So you have to push that out one wrong and say that's up to the miners to do. Then if and when censorship

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starts to become

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less of a theoretical issue and actually manifests as it's right to at the moment,

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we have to be able to say, well, you got to go and find miners. And by the way, we don't know who any of them are. All you have to go on is a Bitcoin address. You have to go and find that miner who constructed that block and then, you know, do whatever punitive stuff you want to do to him. Coming after the pool is useless.

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So that was long and short, that's why Ocean exists and that's what we're doing.

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Awesome.

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Yeah. I mean, I would I would say for some context

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right now,

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Bitmain which is,

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one of the largest,

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manufacturers of ASICs in the world,

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is also,

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one of the largest mining pools. And between them and their proxies,

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they control about 50% of the hash rate. They they construct the blocks of, about 50% of Bitcoin blocks

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that are distributed across the network.

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And when we say constructive blocks, that means someone is, you know, who is deciding which transactions go in a block and get confirmed into Bitcoin.

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And

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obviously, I mean, I think when you have that kind of

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centralization,

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I think Bitcoiners should be very concerned.

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This is something that many of us have

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been watching and been concerned about for a long time, but it hasn't really seemed like any real progress has been made. I will say, like, for a little bit of context is, you know, maybe bit main had even more control over the network in 2017 or something like that, but it hasn't gotten significantly better. Let's put it that way.

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Now one of the things that we cover a lot is that Bitcoin mining is one of the hardest businesses to be in in the world being actual miner.

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I think less so people realize, like, running a mining pool is

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is probably up there as well, especially launching a new mining pool. And I'm curious, Mark,

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on

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on your thoughts about how, like, the I mean, when when did Ocean launch? Ocean launched, like, 8 months ago, I think.

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Yeah. It's 10 months 10 months and 1 week about Yeah. Like, how

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what what are your thoughts on the last 10 months of

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spinning up basically a brand new mining pool from scratch and and trying to join the market?

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Yeah. It's definitely been been a wild ride so far.

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When we when we launched Ocean,

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we we did it as as a rebrand of Allegius.

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So it's not not

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exactly a a new mining pool, but it is a new brand.

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And so I guess we did have the advantage of of having,

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having Luke and and Jason, the, you know, 2 guys on the call here,

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running very successfully one of the earliest mining pools in Bitcoin. I think I think their pool dates back to 2,011,

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so they were one of the first ones the first one to put their name in the Coinbase.

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So we definitely had,

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a bit of a head start in terms of, you know, the the tech. And and when when Luke and I, were

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originally kind of,

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spitballing ideas of of this was like pre ocean.

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Our parent company is called Mummelon, so this was even pre Mummelon.

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We were just sort of new entrepreneurs

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deciding to go into business together

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and

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looking at the landscape.

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And, Luke had Luke had kept the the

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domain active, you know.

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I think that they ran the pool successfully until about 2017.

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It was it was shut down and Luke and Jason went on to pursue other,

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other interests successfully.

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But Luke kinda kept the the domain active with the hopes that one day he would resurrect the Aegis.

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And it just turned out that what Bitcoin, what the Bitcoin ecosystem was facing in terms of the centralization threats,

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It was just the the prime opportunity to bring it back.

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And,

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so it was,

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I guess the challenge was was in terms of just

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the the similar challenge that every startup faces in terms of coming up with, you know, with seed capital to fund the operation, putting together,

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a winning team to to build the products and the tech,

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and then and then getting the the name and the brand recognition out there to try to, you know, capture some of the market share. But we were fortunate to have 2 of the best developers

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in the space being Luke and and Jason here. And Jason, I think as you mentioned, is is kind of like quietly one of the most, you know, influential

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people in the space due to all his contributions.

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And then, you know, we added some really key key people like like Bitcoin Mechanic who can describe and articulate this stuff better than anybody else.

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So I think I think we put together probably the best team in the business, and that that actually made it,

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easy for us to actually start, making some some progress. And,

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and, you know, we were fortunate to have the initial seed investment from Jack Dorsey

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along with

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some very wise advice for him from him to to adopt the new name for the pool because originally we were gonna call it Elegius.

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And, funny joke inside, Luke between me, Luke, and Ian, none of us could agree on how to pronounce the old pool. I said I said Elegius.

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Ian said Elegis, and Luke would say Elegias.

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And and Jack was like, fellas,

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you can't even you can't even agree on how to say the pool. I think you should come up with a new name. And so so we we, we chose Ocean after,

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a little bit of time going to the marketing drawing board. But,

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yeah, it's been great. 10 months over in, and I think we're we're doing great, and and we're really hopeful for the future.

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And Ocean's a great name. Definitely,

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that was that was a good

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not not,

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I don't even know how to pronounce it now. I always pronounce it Elegius,

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but Elegius always has a special place in our hearts, especially if you've been in Bitcoin for a long time. So not to diminish the,

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the history of the name, but it's it's cool to have a fresh start, and it's just a very clean, punchy name.

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I mean, Jason,

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with all that said,

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what I mean,

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we were talking early

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we were talking early on,

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but before everyone else joined, before we even went live, we were talking about the recent downtime you guys faced and you being on the ground, getting it back up and running.

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Do you wanna go into that a little bit about,

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I I mean, when the hurricane hit, ocean went down for a little bit.

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What did that look like, from from your side?

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I mean, without getting too into, like, kind of our behind the scenes security aspects,

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we do have redundancies in place. So there's there's that.

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But this is just a

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once in a lifetime thing. I mean, the location of the primary data center is in a spot where

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we there's a Microsoft data center, a Google data center, Amazon data center, I mean Apple's there.

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There's there's a bunch of places right in this spot because they don't get hit by this kind of stuff. And then everybody got hit with this. And so everybody's,

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redundancies are falling 1 by 1, and it's just there's not a whole lot you can do in that. You can't really plan for

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everything falling and then additional redundancies having some problems.

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So, yeah, I was boots on the ground, actually physically going and

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getting things back up and running. How long was it down for?

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6 or 7 hours I think it was total.

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I mean, that's pretty good considering, I mean, your office is outside. You don't even have a roof over your head.

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Alright. Yeah. Pretty much. No. It it worked out okay. The biggest issue was actually getting over there.

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Get it I had to physically,

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go over to the data center and make some changes to make sure everything got back up and running with with redundancy that didn't even exist yet. We had to kinda put some new things in place.

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But with that, like, physically getting around, I mean, to get from

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basically where I'm at to the data center, I physically had to get out of my car with a chainsaw, move like 5 trees.

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It it was a day. So

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work.

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Yeah. No joke. To date before launching Patum.

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Exactly. So

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it's perfect timing and

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Was that like, were you the Tatum launch was still was it was always planned for when you launched it. It wasn't like, oh, we went down. We might as well hit them with a new launch at the same time. No. That was that was planned for that. I was actually supposed to be there also, and that didn't work out. So

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well, we can talk about data in a

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second. I mean,

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Luke, do you have anything to add here? I know you I think you're still with us. Luke is audio only, by the way, guys, because he has a very secure setup over there. So,

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we're just I don't know.

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Is there anything to add now?

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I'm I mean, I'm curious, like, I mean, Allegius was however the hell you pronounce it was, you

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know, it was a heavyweight pool. Right? And I think,

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you know, you were

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Mark said one of the first. I thought you were the actual first public pool,

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but I mean, you guys know the history better than me. But regardless, it was like a very heavyweight pool.

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Right now, I mean, I think people have really high expectations for Ocean, especially coming out of launch.

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And I'm kinda I'm just I'm really curious just like how you guys are thinking about

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at the end of the day, right, it comes down to growing hash and

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what, like, bit main and his proxies

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control probably, like, 400 x the amount of hash that you guys have so far or something like that. I mean, I'm not a mathematician.

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Like, how do you how are you how are any of you guys thinking about it? I mean, I I'll just open that up. I don't know who wants to answer,

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but it's gotta be the thing that's on top of everyone's mind.

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Yeah. Naturally getting more hash rate. Like I said, there's only so many pools you can have. Right. Which implies there's just a bare minimum to be viable. Right?

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And, I mean, that's that shakes out both ways.

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Naively, the FPPS payout model that has become dominant,

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which is a super high time preference

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option that miners have gone for, where you get paid no matter what.

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And you sort

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of tell yourself the sweet lie that that is somehow a fair split of what comes out of the blockchain. Of course, it isn't. And when we launched Ocean, we were like, guys, this is super high time preference. Like, if someone's guaranteeing to pay you sats no matter what happens in the blockchain,

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they're gonna take an enormous cut for that. They just have to because they have to deal with the randomness instead of you. So

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Ocean with a low time preference approach that says, look, you know, if you wanna deal with the randomness of the blockchain, it's a lot more volatile,

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but you'll make a lot more money overall. Where do where do we see that, you know, in Bitcoin otherwise. Right? You deal with years of bear markets and then you have an unbelievable bull market. It's just it's exactly the same thing. If you can stomach that kind of volatility,

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then you can make a lot more money. If you can't and you want someone to come and clean it up and make it all pretty for you, then

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then that's not going to be Bitcoin anymore. That's just going to be fiat again. Predictability

248
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is just the essence of fiat. Right? It just always kind of sucks. It just sucks enough that people will tolerate it, and we all boil as frogs.

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So to that end, the fact that we have the payout system we do, unfortunately, is exacerbated.

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The smaller we are as a pool, the more variance or the, you know, the longer it can drag out for before we resolve to a 100% luck. So Ocean is sitting there a couple of exahash now, which is good. The first exahash was the hardest. Of course, the second exahash was a lot easier.

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And with what we're rolling out at the moment, we've actually seen a lot of organic growth.

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And, you know, I think

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around 3, 4, or 5, it starts to become that the variance is tolerable for 99% of miners, and they can just focus on revenue at that point and go, yeah, I mined with Ocean for

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5 weeks, and it was enough for me to do my comparison with another pool. I earned

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11%

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more or something. These are the kind of numbers we've had thrown at us by miners. But the bigger our hash rate, the faster they can do the maths and do the comparison.

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Since launch, that has been since before launch, that's been our primary concern. The more hash rate we have, the better a product we can offer. Because if we're finding 1 block a week, that sucks for mine. If we're finding 3 blocks a day, that's fine. Then they can then they can have a viable operation and pay their utility bills without sweating it.

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Yeah. I mean, that's the brutal part about,

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the mining pool business, particularly

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launching it or relaunching a pool or launching a pool, whatever you wanna say,

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in terms of of this pool launch. I mean, I think so when when just to the listeners, when when mechanics is variance,

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in in practical terms, what that means is is just how often the pool finds a block, so how often you get paid. Right? And, obviously,

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people have rent rent costs, labor costs,

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hardware costs. They have things they need to pay and,

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humans don't like waiting to get paid.

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So so that variance figure is and then also you have ASICs that

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go out, you know, they they they they lose their competitive advantage over time as as new a six enter the market so you wanna get paid quicker and it's kind of like success begets success and it becomes hard to bootstrap.

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On on the opposite side, on the flip side of that is we saw Foundry launch.

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We saw Foundry launch maybe 2 years ago, 3 years ago and they, like, quickly became the largest pool. Now, they had something up their sleeve which is that they just they KYC all their minors and they provided loans to their minors.

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And the suits really liked it. Like the suits thought KYC was a feature so they had like kind of like a unique competitive advantage. And I actually think there's kind of some similarities with you guys that you are very unique in the pool space.

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So once you get your stride, maybe

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we start to see momentum really build there.

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So

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I would say

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from my perspective, I'm looking at it like,

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you guys have 2, 2 key things that you're focusing on. You're focusing on

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educating minors. Right? That this FPF PPF FPPS

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model where they're basically outsourcing or outsourcing

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block construction

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and risk

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to like the Central Bank of Geehan,

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who is financing all of it is incredibly high risk for the golden goose that is Bitcoin. So you have the education side which like mechanic is focused on.

283
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And then you have like the tooling side, like making the pool competitively

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unique,

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in the pool landscape.

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And it seems like that's where Jason's main major focus is, and and that's what's so important about this DATAM launch.

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So I mean, Jason, do you want to explain I mean, you're the one who built it, I believe. Right? You wanna explain

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what the hell Datum is and why people should care?

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So I mean, normally, when you connect to a pool, the pool gives you the work. The pool is the one that's running the Bitcoin node, and the pool is the one that's constructing the work that your miner is going to

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try to find hashes for. Datum

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shifts that. So where the pool is no longer giving you work, in fact, the pool gives you basically nothing except for how to split the rewards.

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And you are running the node. You are making the block. And when you find it, you submit it to the network.

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The only thing that Ocean's coordinating

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is the payout split. So we're keeping track of how much work you do. We're making sure it is doing work for the pool,

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and for the rest of the miners, including yourself.

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And that's pretty much it. So you are actually the miner again, and this is kinda taking you back to it it is solo mining. You you are solo mining with data. So the pool the pool's role is greatly diminished

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in that we no longer have control over what is actually going into the block. That's all you as the miner.

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Hopefully, it answers your question.

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So I mean yeah. I you're it's like solo mining from the

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position of you construct your blocks yourself.

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Yeah. I mean, that that is solo mining. And then it's pool mining from the point of you don't have to deal with the variance of just being a small miner. You get to Exactly.

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Share the work with others.

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So this is something,

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is absolutely

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massive. Right? This is, I mean, this is the dream. Right? This is what we wanna see essentially,

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within a pool, there's almost like all these

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mini pools or, I don't know, solo miners, I guess. It doesn't matter. It's like They're solo miners. Metaphor.

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And you kinda

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distribute you distribute that censorship risk. Maybe some miners are censoring certain transactions, maybe some are,

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censoring different transactions, but usually a transaction will get through regardless. There'll be there'll be some subset that isn't.

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And at the end of the day, the miners get to have total control over what they want to construct.

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Now this is a this is a dream that,

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a bunch of people have been working on on like the Stratum V2 side

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and I

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as part of your launch there's a lot of back and forth there

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about Stratham v 2 versus Datum,

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and why not do Stratham v 2? Like, how do you guys think about that? Like, why did you,

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like, Jason, why did you just, like, build up, I mean, anyone can answer this, but why did you guys create a whole new

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setup instead of using Star v 2?

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I mean, I can take it or mechanics kind of been in the weeds on it more than I have. It's a Yeah.

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I I look at it as it's it's not really that much of a technical question. Right? And if you approach it that way, it's kind of misleading. Like, there are multiple tools that do similar jobs in every domain.

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Right? It's just, ultimately, it comes down to people and what they wanna do and what they wanna use things for. So

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there have been s v 2 pools already.

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And do they do anything for decentralization

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of template construction?

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No. Does that mean s v 2 isn't capable of that? No. Of course not. It actually is capable of decentralizing templates.

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But I think I mean, look at a pool like brains. Right? It's an s v 2 pool. They have s v 2 firmware that you can use it for. But s v 2 does a lot of things. It doesn't just decentralize templates.

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It also allows encrypted and more efficient communication between the pool and the miner. It's an upgrade to centralized templates, and that's all it's getting used for. And it gets worse because brains is one of the most egregious Antpool proxies out there. They're they're box full of Antpools accelerated transactions.

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And they switched to FPPS, which comes with its, you know, that's it's Faustian bargain of its own. If you're that small as a pool, being able to maintain the kind of money you need to be able to pay out to minors during periods of bad luck basically means you've got to turn to a parent company to come and bail you out. And you already said, you know, that's

330
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its conjecture, but it's probably just Bitmain bankrolling smaller pools. And that's why you see them all having the same Stratton work, and you see them all using the same custodian.

331
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So

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rather than be

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congruent with what we wanna do with decentralizing templates,

334
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their SV 2 use is entirely a virtue signal, and it's presenting the network as being more decentralized than it actually is. So that's a false sense of security.

335
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It's the exact opposite of what we wanna do. Does it make SV 2 bad or anything? No. It doesn't. But I maintain that having a tool that does one thing and does it well is much better than having a tool that can do a whole bunch of things.

336
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And because it theoretically can do something but never does,

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it remains this sort of,

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naively

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superior solution. But if it never gets used that way, it's not gonna help anything. So it really comes down to the willingness of people in Ocean

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to push for a thing. Right? That's why we've incentivized

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it, saying, if you're making your own blocks, you get cheaper fees on Ocean than if you don't. We wanna push you to do this for the health of Bitcoin.

342
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If a pool isn't willing to do that, it doesn't matter whether a protocol exists or not. And it's not and

343
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this was possible before

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without Datum, but no one had any initiative to do it. The fact that we do, and the fact that we've made a, a protocol specifically to do it, speaks to exactly the way we think it should be done. Right? And s v 2 is just not quite the right tool for the job. And

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some people took that as, like, you know, oh, I'm curious why you didn't use s v 2. I've been working on it for years. What's up? Other people took it as in, like, how dare you not use s v 2. You have to use it and got very offended by it. I mean, that's that's pretty ridiculous in my estimation. I I have said incorrect things about it before due to my own misunderstanding, but I've definitely corrected those and don't wish to imply

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that it's not capable of miners creating templates themselves.

347
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It's more just looking at the social aspects and maybe even the political aspects of Bitcoin. And the fact that pools,

348
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for the most part, don't really wanna give up template construction. They like it because it gives them a lot of control that they're happy not seeding over to the miners in a way that they just don't care about the fact that Bitcoin can't last like that. It can't last with less than a 100 people at best deciding what gets into the chain.

349
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So

350
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this but and it's not just that, right? Because Tatum is solo mining software.

351
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First and foremost, that's what it does. You can use it to connect to an upstream pool that has Datum on the pool side that can verify everything you do and give you Coinbase splits if you request it. But if you don't wanna do that, this is just solo mining software, And it's been forever since mine like, anyone's solar mining,

352
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for years, it's just you know, they usually use these things called solo pools, which are someone running a third party

353
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Stratton server for you, running a node, constructing the templates on your behalf, undoing all of the sovereign aspects of solo mining, but giving you 98% of the reward split. And people have been calling this solo mining, and it just isn't. So I think it's good to try and re,

354
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you know, redefine a few of these terms. Like, in our in our estimation,

355
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Tatum is for solo mining. It can be solo mining where you split rewards with other people, or it can be solo mining where you literally just interact with the Bitcoin network permissionlessly

356
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without anyone

357
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having any sort of intermediation,

358
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between you and the network. That's that's sovereign true solo mining, and there really aren't many people doing that.

359
00:30:42.690 --> 00:30:47.510
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, I I think you're mostly referring to, like, solo CK pool,

360
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which is, like,

361
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effectively

362
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yeah. They're constructing the they're constructing the blocks for you. It's not really solo mining. You need their permission. At the end of the day, when you find a block, you've got to ask them, hey, can you tell the network about this block? That's not sovereign. Like, with datum, if you're mining, even using ocean splits, if you're moving using datum, when you find a block,

363
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your datum server tells your node about it, which tells the network about it. You don't need to ask So when you're when you're using datum,

364
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the okay. But let's pull it back real quick. So I

365
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what what appeals to me about

366
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your strategy,

367
00:31:30.385 --> 00:31:34.885
since very early on is just the idea of, like, simple robust solutions.

368
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Right? That that's what appeals to me about Bitcoin, like, a lot of people are, like, a lot of non, you know, pre corners

369
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or bitcoin deniers or whatever. They're, like, bitcoin is too complicated. Like, the reason I'm attracted to bitcoin is because it's actually incredibly simple and robust. It doesn't try and do all the things. Right? It's also why I've been so focused on Nostra lately.

370
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It's just because it I feel it's a simple robust solution

371
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to a problem that a lot of us have.

372
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And with DATM well, even pre DATM. Right? So you had this idea that

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you're the I think you're the only pool that like shows the block template

374
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that miners are mining predatum

375
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on the website. Like, look, here here's here's what the next block would look like if we find a block. And then you went a step further and you were, like, okay, we're actually gonna provide multiple templates,

376
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and instead of doing anything like really fancy,

377
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it's like you're just putting a different stratum end point into your miner and then you're mining that template. Super simple. It's like very simple but that's the appeal to it. Right? And then with Datum,

378
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I from my viewpoint,

379
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the idea was we wanna solve really one main problem

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which is

381
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who constructs the blocks and let's try and do it in the simplest way possible,

382
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and bring that back to who's ever actually

383
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mining, who's ever actually running the miners.

384
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So, I mean, I

385
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I I've I've spoken to you guys previously,

386
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like, one of the key aspects of Datum

387
00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:14.640
is how lightweight it is and that you can just easily run it on commodity hardware. So do you wanna talk about that briefly?

388
00:33:16.540 --> 00:33:26.465
Jason, we should take No. I'll jump in on that one. So, I mean, the that was written in c, and, it was kinda designed from the beginning to be as efficient as possible.

389
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So, like, one of my test cases, I would run it on a pi 4

390
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and throw 10,000 synthetic miners at it to see how it would go, and it does fine. So there's that kind of stuff. So we you can have reasonably specced hardware. You don't you don't need anything too crazy to be able to run datum. Actually, the heaviest load is the Bitcoin node.

391
00:33:47.520 --> 00:33:58.535
Right. Because the Bitcoin node itself has to validate blocks from the network, take transactions into the mempool, keep the mempool, validate all that, etcetera. That's the heaviest part. The actual mining part,

392
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some of our beta testers and alpha testers have been pretty surprised. They look at it like, oh, this is using 3% of one core with 8,000 workers connected.

393
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I mean, it's it's light. It's pretty light. So it's it doesn't take a lot of effort to once like, on the hardware side, there's not a lot of effort. And the setup of it is

394
00:34:20.405 --> 00:34:30.984
pretty simple as well. If you can set up a Bitcoin node, you basically just have to add a few configuration options to the node itself and then run data alongside it. There's it's as

395
00:34:31.685 --> 00:34:33.145
low friction as possible

396
00:34:33.490 --> 00:34:34.550
to get you from

397
00:34:34.850 --> 00:34:42.470
mining with the centralized templates that we make, that another pool makes, to actually mining your own template with your own node.

398
00:34:42.770 --> 00:34:49.525
And I don't think we could make it much simpler than it is. Although, I think, like, mechanic with start 9 was trying to do

399
00:34:49.905 --> 00:34:51.925
a package for it to make it even easier.

400
00:34:52.385 --> 00:34:58.645
But it's it's pretty simple and I think that's an important thing because then we can move away from solo pools

401
00:34:58.945 --> 00:35:09.349
and things. If you want a solo mine, well just use Datum and mine either with split rewards promotion or get a 100% of the reward when you find your own block. Like no no middle man, no nothing.

402
00:35:09.650 --> 00:35:16.869
So like like we'll get away from some of this stuff and kinda get people back to the network where they were 10 plus years ago.

403
00:35:17.595 --> 00:35:18.655
Yeah. So, I mean,

404
00:35:18.955 --> 00:35:19.615
I think

405
00:35:20.235 --> 00:35:24.815
the most productive path for this conversation going forward is, I think we all agree,

406
00:35:27.035 --> 00:35:29.935
that the ultimate goal is to have miners

407
00:35:30.315 --> 00:35:31.695
construct their own blocks.

408
00:35:32.589 --> 00:35:41.170
And if if that happens at scale via Stratum v 2, that would be fantastic. And if that happens at scale through Datum, that would be fantastic.

409
00:35:41.869 --> 00:35:43.250
And let's just focus

410
00:35:44.030 --> 00:35:47.089
on Datum rather than the comparisons because also I'm have

411
00:35:47.865 --> 00:35:50.365
not as much knowledge about Straton v 2 as

412
00:35:51.145 --> 00:35:56.525
as I probably should to, like, properly have that conversation. I don't know how much knowledge of it you guys have. But

413
00:35:57.145 --> 00:35:58.365
with all that said,

414
00:35:58.905 --> 00:35:59.405
so,

415
00:35:59.750 --> 00:36:04.010
mechanic, like, you package this thing up for start 9. Right? So, like, I could have

416
00:36:04.710 --> 00:36:06.809
I could have 4 a six

417
00:36:07.349 --> 00:36:10.329
just like be like us really small humble home miner.

418
00:36:10.630 --> 00:36:20.865
I could have 4 a six or like a couple bid access or something like that and I could just run this on my start nine box with bitcoin knots connected to it because knots is

419
00:36:21.325 --> 00:36:26.145
is basically what's what's powering a lot of the configuration and stuff like that as well.

420
00:36:27.770 --> 00:36:29.630
And then I'm good to go. That's it.

421
00:36:30.089 --> 00:36:37.550
Yeah. On I'll get into the weeds a bit. So start 9 servers like to do everything by Tor or by n m DNS.

422
00:36:38.089 --> 00:36:40.750
So everything's got dot locals at the end of it,

423
00:36:41.135 --> 00:36:50.675
and you can't put a dot local into your Antminer. It doesn't know how to use that. You need an IP and a port. So there's one little hack you have to do on the current version of Star OS.

424
00:36:51.454 --> 00:36:56.675
That's 3 lines pasted into terminal, and that's it. Then, you'll be able to access

425
00:36:57.110 --> 00:36:57.510
your,

426
00:36:57.910 --> 00:36:59.130
start 9 servers

427
00:36:59.670 --> 00:37:00.730
datum service,

428
00:37:01.430 --> 00:37:02.970
over your local area network.

429
00:37:03.670 --> 00:37:05.690
It's it's really, really simple.

430
00:37:06.790 --> 00:37:22.214
Accessing it over, like if you have a hosted miner and you wanna point that star 9 server, that gets a bit more complicated. But if you want to do stuff like that, there's probably other easier ways for it. But, yeah, with the if you have, like, an old Raspberry Pi 4 version of Star OS

431
00:37:22.515 --> 00:37:23.654
running 0351,

432
00:37:24.674 --> 00:37:26.295
which is the latest version,

433
00:37:26.890 --> 00:37:31.310
I dare say you could have a 1,000 minuteus pointed to it, and it wouldn't even break a sweat.

434
00:37:31.610 --> 00:37:35.950
So if you have a garage with a 1,000 bit axis in it, you're fine. Go for it.

435
00:37:37.130 --> 00:37:42.270
Yeah. I think your biggest thing would be, like, block validation time with the node. I mean, the Pi 4 does

436
00:37:42.705 --> 00:37:49.285
does take a little bit of time to validate blocks now. But Yeah. I mean, it's like a pie. Don't use a pie. But, like, if it was like,

437
00:37:49.585 --> 00:37:50.565
like, a $125,

438
00:37:51.425 --> 00:38:04.750
like, old Intel machine or some shit. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's More than good. The fact that it can do it on a pi four is just kind of the benchmark. If you can go that low, then anything else you can just reasonably acquire is within reach.

439
00:38:05.050 --> 00:38:09.230
And, and I think that's that's important. And I I don't see that with

440
00:38:09.714 --> 00:38:12.295
any other solutions that are, like, potentially

441
00:38:13.155 --> 00:38:15.895
potentially out there. It's just one of those things that's

442
00:38:16.595 --> 00:38:19.095
not not much is designed to be lightweight anymore.

443
00:38:19.474 --> 00:38:19.974
And

444
00:38:20.275 --> 00:38:39.120
I don't know why, but that's that's one of the things I like to do. I like to code things to the metal and make sure make sure it's as as efficient as possible. If we have a task to do, that's all it should do. It shouldn't have 4,000 extra libraries and 4,000 steps that you gotta do and all these other things that have to happen in order for it to work. It should just do what it's supposed to do.

445
00:38:39.465 --> 00:38:41.885
Last binary you sent me was 240

446
00:38:42.265 --> 00:38:42.765
kilobytes.

447
00:38:43.385 --> 00:38:46.685
Right? Yep. Yeah. It's it's not it's not big.

448
00:38:47.465 --> 00:38:49.805
I mean, it's all written in c.

449
00:38:50.505 --> 00:38:55.280
Oh, maybe I'm not supposed to say, but it contains a totally unrolled SHA 256

450
00:38:55.740 --> 00:38:57.440
just to get rid of one dependency.

451
00:38:58.620 --> 00:39:01.280
So Not anymore. We actually we actually changed that.

452
00:39:02.300 --> 00:39:03.360
But but yeah.

453
00:39:04.620 --> 00:39:09.605
So yeah. I mean, it's just it's just designed to be efficient, and that and that's part of it. So in that, it's,

454
00:39:10.545 --> 00:39:11.765
the the protocol's encrypted.

455
00:39:12.385 --> 00:39:17.765
It's binary protocol. So we're not sending just plain text JSON over the Internet anymore,

456
00:39:18.385 --> 00:39:22.085
and doubling the amount of data that we have to do versus stratum v one.

457
00:39:22.580 --> 00:39:26.200
And it's it's just does all of that in a more effective way.

458
00:39:26.900 --> 00:39:50.380
So it can use SV 2 as well, for the communications between the DATM server and Right. Miners. It can use SV 2 for that if and when Bitmain and Whatsminer will release s v 2 firmware, and it's not just, you know, a couple of aftermarket firmware like brains that allow it. We can still use that and it was between the miners and the datum server. Yeah. Datum can use s v 1 or s v 2. But right now between

459
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:51.260
Datum

460
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:59.660
and like ocean servers or if another pool adopted it, who knows? But between Datum and ocean servers, that's that connection's encrypted.

461
00:40:00.200 --> 00:40:03.900
Right. That's the so the Datum protocol itself is encrypted between

462
00:40:04.244 --> 00:40:06.025
your we call it the Dedham gateway

463
00:40:06.565 --> 00:40:07.464
and the pool.

464
00:40:07.765 --> 00:40:30.960
So and then between your miners and the gateway, that's currently still s v one because everything supports s v one. Right. So that so that that solves the man in the middle concern unless they're in your local network. Yeah. And if they're in your network, you're in trouble anyway. You're probably really fucked. Yeah. Okay. So that's huge. Okay. That's so it's not just it doesn't just solve the block construction part. I mean, there's people have always been concerned

465
00:40:31.740 --> 00:40:33.359
that people would sit in between

466
00:40:34.125 --> 00:40:35.025
malicious actors

467
00:40:35.405 --> 00:40:39.665
including potentially ISPs, you know, could sit in between the the pool and

468
00:40:40.285 --> 00:40:41.825
and the minors and

469
00:40:42.445 --> 00:40:44.225
and and basically try and steal money.

470
00:40:44.925 --> 00:40:54.840
Yeah. And and one of the big considerations with that was the encryption. It just it just had to happen. There was there was no reason not to do it. And to also make it a protocol that wasn't,

471
00:40:56.260 --> 00:41:07.345
forgetting the term off the top of my head, but basically if you do manage demand in the middle of it, the amount of information you can glean from the connection or from logging it is not enough to know exactly what's going on,

472
00:41:07.725 --> 00:41:10.945
just by other aspects of how it's how things are happening.

473
00:41:11.325 --> 00:41:14.545
So there were there was a lot there to try to make sure

474
00:41:14.845 --> 00:41:19.105
that this is this is as secure as that could possibly be for what it's doing.

475
00:41:19.910 --> 00:41:20.650
That is.

476
00:41:22.950 --> 00:41:25.770
Okay. So I mean then the other concern is

477
00:41:27.510 --> 00:41:31.770
the other thing when it comes down to individual miners constructing their blocks,

478
00:41:32.915 --> 00:41:35.815
is if I'm a miner and I'm constructing my blocks

479
00:41:36.675 --> 00:41:38.615
and I'm trying to do it,

480
00:41:40.515 --> 00:41:42.615
I'm a let's, you know, everyone says

481
00:41:43.075 --> 00:41:47.015
like good faith actor, bad faith actor, usually it's like some kind of blend in between.

482
00:41:47.529 --> 00:41:50.910
Like one man's good faith actor might be another man's bad faith actor.

483
00:41:51.609 --> 00:41:56.269
But at the end of the day, like, you're almost in partnership with other people that are participating in your pool.

484
00:41:57.529 --> 00:42:01.549
And one of the concerns is that what if I have a malicious actor

485
00:42:01.994 --> 00:42:02.894
that is mining

486
00:42:03.355 --> 00:42:04.255
with the pool

487
00:42:04.954 --> 00:42:22.150
and is intentionally trying to disrupt operations at the pool and make it so it's less profitable for other people mining at the pool. And you could you can, you know, one one example you could point to is a com a competing pool. Let's say, you know, let's just use Jehan as our main bad guy at Bitmain.

488
00:42:23.250 --> 00:42:26.950
Like Bitmain is trying to disrupt operations at Ocean by

489
00:42:27.250 --> 00:42:27.750
intentionally,

490
00:42:28.529 --> 00:42:29.430
either, like,

491
00:42:29.945 --> 00:42:32.045
block withholding or like mining

492
00:42:32.505 --> 00:42:34.925
unprofitable blocks or less profitable blocks.

493
00:42:35.225 --> 00:42:37.885
Like how does data handle that edge case?

494
00:42:39.305 --> 00:42:51.230
So I mean the the pool itself, I mean, you have to keep in mind that you are in a pool and it's we're trying to the pool's duty is to make sure that we're lowering variance for the miners and ensuring they get a fair split of rewards.

495
00:42:51.530 --> 00:42:54.270
So in order to do that, we have we have to do

496
00:42:55.130 --> 00:42:55.630
some

497
00:42:56.565 --> 00:43:08.505
I don't know what term to use for it, but, basically, to ensure everybody's doing what they're supposed to do. And the goal behind the algorithm for the datum back end is to if you were to solo mine whatever you are mining,

498
00:43:08.990 --> 00:43:12.369
that is the reward you would get over time. So if you wanna mine

499
00:43:12.829 --> 00:43:14.930
a block that just doesn't have anything

500
00:43:15.390 --> 00:43:26.214
of value in it anymore, like, you're just you're just doing all out of band 0 fee transactions, well, you can do it, but you're not getting the same reward as somebody else on the pool that's going to be mining

501
00:43:27.155 --> 00:43:30.295
like what we would consider a normal block, I guess.

502
00:43:30.595 --> 00:43:38.200
So if the entire pool is mining blocks of x bitcoin and you're mining blocks of 90% of that where you're gonna get 90% of the reward.

503
00:43:38.740 --> 00:43:42.200
The the actual algorithm and how that works isn't completely

504
00:43:42.580 --> 00:43:46.280
publicly fleshed out and I don't know how much I can speak to it but

505
00:43:46.660 --> 00:43:55.365
basically we have to protect the miners from attacks like that. And and we have to do it in a way where we're not making the decision for

506
00:43:55.985 --> 00:44:05.205
what can be in your block. So we're still not we're not going to tell you, no. You can't do this. But we we have to tell you that, no. You can't lose this other miner money.

507
00:44:05.665 --> 00:44:06.165
So

508
00:44:06.670 --> 00:44:09.490
if you wanna if you wanna do a block that's

509
00:44:09.950 --> 00:44:13.810
however you wanna construct it. If you wanna make empty blocks, I mean, I think that's silly,

510
00:44:14.110 --> 00:44:27.145
but we're not gonna stop you from doing it. You're just not going to make as much money doing it as you would mining blocks with transactions in them. Like the next block the next block and the block after that, your proportion is paid less than it would otherwise be paid.

511
00:44:27.685 --> 00:44:31.385
So it it's it has to be based on something that's not

512
00:44:31.925 --> 00:44:34.049
determined by us And

513
00:44:34.589 --> 00:44:43.569
that the only way to do that is to make it determined by the entire the entirety of the pool. So if the entirety of the pool will set the baseline across the whole share log

514
00:44:43.869 --> 00:44:44.369
and

515
00:44:44.910 --> 00:44:45.970
that's the baseline.

516
00:44:46.395 --> 00:44:47.855
If everybody's mind something?

517
00:44:48.955 --> 00:44:54.895
Kinda. Like I said, I I don't know how much we've gotten into this publicly as of yet. But, but, yeah, I mean,

518
00:44:55.195 --> 00:45:07.520
the short of it is we're not going to let somebody some malicious actor screw over the rest of the pool. And we're also not going to let somebody who, like, just is doing things that just aren't profitable for the rest of the pool

519
00:45:08.060 --> 00:45:11.840
make everybody else's money. The other miners can't subsidize your behavior

520
00:45:12.140 --> 00:45:13.520
whether it's good or bad.

521
00:45:13.825 --> 00:45:21.845
Like somebody else isn't required to subsidize that. I mean, to me, this is like the most incredibly important aspect.

522
00:45:22.145 --> 00:45:24.485
Right? Because a pool like Foundry

523
00:45:24.945 --> 00:45:35.110
can solve it by just KYC ing everybody. Mhmm. It's obviously, to me, not a solution and obviously, definitely not a long term solution. You don't want the majority of minors k y c ed.

524
00:45:35.650 --> 00:45:36.150
And,

525
00:45:36.850 --> 00:45:37.510
you know,

526
00:45:37.810 --> 00:45:42.315
to me, like, the idea that like, let's use Foundry again as an example, which by the way, like, I'm not

527
00:45:42.875 --> 00:45:54.175
trying to shit on them too much because it's, like, the single best thing Barry Silber has ever done. There's some good people at Foundry, and it's, like, one of the last things that's, like, holding back Bitmain right now while we try and figure our shit out. Agreed.

528
00:45:54.650 --> 00:45:57.070
So thank you to the k y c suits

529
00:45:57.530 --> 00:45:58.090
over there.

530
00:45:59.210 --> 00:45:59.710
But,

531
00:46:00.890 --> 00:46:03.230
like Foundry, you can't even permissionlessly

532
00:46:03.930 --> 00:46:14.355
join their pool. Right? Like, you can't go and find a stratum endpoint and join their pool. Like, you have to have, like, a coffee meeting with them or something, like, I don't know how you go about joining that pool,

533
00:46:14.974 --> 00:46:17.635
but if you have a pool that is people can permissionlessly

534
00:46:18.015 --> 00:46:18.515
join

535
00:46:19.135 --> 00:46:20.915
and they can construct their own blocks,

536
00:46:21.535 --> 00:46:29.330
then this becomes a significant issue, and one of the things with Bitcoin is the beauty of Bitcoin is you don't have to assume

537
00:46:29.710 --> 00:46:42.384
good faith. It it, like, in fact, it's the opposite, like, you can assume everyone's a greedy actor and the system is more robust for it. So, like, if we want a system that's actually gonna work at scale and is gonna attract serious hash rate,

538
00:46:43.164 --> 00:46:45.505
it can't be based on that assumption. So,

539
00:46:46.125 --> 00:46:49.744
I mean, I think on the surface, whatever you guys have cooked up here,

540
00:46:50.230 --> 00:46:55.690
like, makes a lot of sense to me. It seems very clever. I wonder, like, do you guys have a plan? Is it going to be

541
00:46:56.630 --> 00:46:57.130
transparent

542
00:46:57.430 --> 00:47:11.945
on how that calculation works? Like, I the Yeah. That that is the plan. That is the plan. We're still doing a private exclusive beta at the moment. So I mean, a a lot of the stuff isn't public including the code. We we plan on having that all out by 18th.

543
00:47:12.645 --> 00:47:13.145
So

544
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:19.220
there'll be a lot a lot more questions answered in detail there. But the the main the main thing is that

545
00:47:19.680 --> 00:47:29.914
again like another miner like I as miner a can't subsidize the behavior of miner b be it them a good or bad actor. What they may think what they're doing is a good thing.

546
00:47:30.535 --> 00:47:31.994
Luke Yeah. I mean an example

547
00:47:32.694 --> 00:47:38.795
an example you would have that's not necessarily quote unquote bad actor but would, you know,

548
00:47:39.095 --> 00:47:42.634
absolutely suck if I was part of the pool with them and be like a race to 0

549
00:47:43.110 --> 00:47:47.210
is if a miner in a high fee environment was literally just solely

550
00:47:47.830 --> 00:47:56.730
taking out of band transaction fee accelerations and just not sharing it with everybody else. Right. Would be one of the examples here. And then you kinda create a tragedy of the commons

551
00:47:57.055 --> 00:48:01.635
where it's, like, everyone's incentivized to have, like, these black market transaction fee acceleration

552
00:48:02.175 --> 00:48:02.675
situations

553
00:48:03.215 --> 00:48:06.915
because no one else in the pool is sharing with them. So they're all, like, hiding it and

554
00:48:07.215 --> 00:48:08.910
taking it you have you have the thing.

555
00:48:09.789 --> 00:48:21.089
Like you said it is permissionless and it is it is non custodial. So at the at the end of the day, we can't stop somebody from doing that, but we can stop it from hurting somebody else's bottom line.

556
00:48:21.984 --> 00:48:31.365
Right. That's that's the only thing that we can do as the ones that are calculating the reward split. Yeah. And the onus is on the onus is on us to do that. If we don't Exactly.

557
00:48:31.905 --> 00:48:33.365
You just won't get the hash.

558
00:48:34.470 --> 00:48:40.810
Well, I mean, we can't make life horrible for the minors on the pool. And it is a sort of yeah.

559
00:48:41.270 --> 00:48:54.145
You know, if you wanna be a part of the club, then you have to abide by the rules of the club. And if you don't like the rules of the club, you can leave the club. It's not, you know, I'm sure some people are gonna paint it in the most negative light possible.

560
00:48:54.845 --> 00:48:56.625
But the end of the day, man, like,

561
00:48:57.245 --> 00:48:58.545
we can't we can't

562
00:48:58.845 --> 00:49:00.545
it's permissionless and permissionless,

563
00:49:01.165 --> 00:49:07.890
like, anything that's permissionless is open to abuse. So it's on someone to try and make the abuse as minimal enough

564
00:49:08.270 --> 00:49:22.355
that everyone else can have a nice time. So same with Nostra. Right? Nostra's permissionless and censorship resistant. And then you get these reply guys, spam things everywhere, just making it a miserable experience for everyone. Yeah. And Will and all the people working on Nostra

565
00:49:22.655 --> 00:49:41.790
aren't being silly about it. They're like, let's figure out a way to deal with this. Otherwise, Nostra's gonna suck. Right. So, you know but if you have, in theory, you could have a centralized social network that had a way to get rid of all the spam. Somehow, they couldn't even do it. It's found your model. It's KYC. You I mean, you could get rid of you could take blood tests of everyone who posts,

566
00:49:42.250 --> 00:49:49.194
and you don't ban them, and then you never have spam. Right. And how horrible a solution is that? Because it it doesn't even work anyway. Like,

567
00:49:49.575 --> 00:50:08.619
Elon, it's Twitter is completely centralized, and there's still spam everywhere. You even see, like, blue check mark spam. Like, I don't so KYC isn't really a real solution, but, I mean, maybe that's because of the financial incentives. They're, like, inflating the number of accounts they have and stuff. I'm sure with centralization of a social network, you could minimize spam.

568
00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:11.420
But if you wanna decentralize it and make it permissionless,

569
00:50:12.245 --> 00:50:14.185
it's hard to get those protocols

570
00:50:14.885 --> 00:50:16.025
resistant to abuse.

571
00:50:16.725 --> 00:50:21.285
Yeah. So you make a strong incentive. So, I mean, Jason, real quick, like, did you just hit me with,

572
00:50:21.765 --> 00:50:23.625
it'll be open source in 2 weeks?

573
00:50:25.210 --> 00:50:25.950
Give or take.

574
00:50:26.650 --> 00:50:36.350
Yeah. Pretty much. What's 11 days? Let's say 11 days. Less than 1 or 2 weeks. Well, I gave him 3 days. I gave him a new business 3 days. But, yeah, that that is the goal.

575
00:50:37.145 --> 00:50:49.565
But, yeah, I mean, one of one of the things that people, like, just completely gloss over. There's a huge difference between in a pool that will KYC or any entity like that that does that and something that's permissionless. Because let's say you're a miner and

576
00:50:49.865 --> 00:50:52.765
you you're mining to address a b c and

577
00:50:53.289 --> 00:51:20.075
for some reason, you you do something you're not supposed to and and we want to stop you from doing that. Well, okay. We can let let's let's say we have the ability to do that, which we really don't. You could just change addresses or change IP. We don't know who you are. We we have none of that information. So we're we are truly permissionless. We're not we can't stop that. And so because we can't, every the guardrails have to be in place to make it so that the that the pool as a whole

578
00:51:20.430 --> 00:51:22.369
is useful for everyone.

579
00:51:22.670 --> 00:51:23.170
And

580
00:51:23.630 --> 00:51:42.005
there's a lot of different ways we we kind of spitballed on how to do that. And the consensus kind of was we can't base like that on, like, let's say let's say we had, like, a baseline template. Like, everything was judged by what we thought was the template. We we can't do that because then

581
00:51:42.625 --> 00:51:59.810
then we're the arbiter again. Yeah. And and because of that, we we had to come up with a way where the miners are the arbiters and they're the ones determining what everyone's gonna make. And that way so when the ultimate goal is so if you solo if you mine and you mine with Datum and you solo mine with Ocean,

582
00:52:00.349 --> 00:52:00.849
then

583
00:52:01.230 --> 00:52:04.690
whatever you are mining is what you would earn

584
00:52:05.615 --> 00:52:09.714
in the long term. So if you're if you're able to mine a block a year,

585
00:52:10.175 --> 00:52:11.635
that would earn you 33.2

586
00:52:12.415 --> 00:52:18.355
Bitcoin, let's say. Well, in a year, you should earn 3.2 Bitcoin. Well, actually, maybe even more because

587
00:52:18.655 --> 00:52:19.875
you'd have better variance.

588
00:52:20.580 --> 00:52:26.280
Well, no. That's the variance doesn't necessarily change your reward. The variance gets you there. With spikes.

589
00:52:26.580 --> 00:52:29.640
Right. It gets you there a little more more smoothly.

590
00:52:29.940 --> 00:52:31.480
It definitely makes it some resolution.

591
00:52:32.180 --> 00:52:37.685
Right. So but that way, like, assuming a 100% luck and you mine your block in a year,

592
00:52:38.065 --> 00:52:41.525
like, that's what you would still get by mining your block with Ocean.

593
00:52:41.825 --> 00:52:56.829
That's the goal. So if you wanna mine an empty block, you're gonna get an empty block worth of rewards at the end of the year. It's clever. That's it's a smart solution. It's it's a smart I mean, I guess, mitigation. I've never I'd it was one of those unsolved problems that everyone it was like,

594
00:52:57.450 --> 00:53:14.494
you know, there's so many things like that with where people are like, oh, yeah. Well, we're just gonna send construction block construction to the individual miners or whatever. It's like, yeah. I just kinda feel like you're hand waving it away and, like, that's just not gonna work because people take out of them fees and this to me is a very pragmatic, clever, simple,

595
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:16.019
mitigation

596
00:53:16.720 --> 00:53:17.859
that I like a lot.

597
00:53:18.160 --> 00:53:19.859
So you guys keep saying permissionless.

598
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:21.779
Am I correct

599
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:22.980
that

600
00:53:23.359 --> 00:53:25.140
the individual minors are broadcasting

601
00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:46.910
their blocks when they find it or do you guys ultimately choose like I don't, like, we don't like that block. You construct it. We don't like you. We don't like that block. You can't We can't stop them. Heck no. When you find a block, we want you to tell the network about it. We don't wanna add another hop and slow things down because, you know, it's a 10 minute race, man. I don't want a 2 second delay. And it's

602
00:53:47.390 --> 00:53:49.730
it it wouldn't be solar mining if you weren't telling

603
00:53:50.030 --> 00:53:57.330
the network around the blocks you found. You need to tell the network directly. But there is configuration options in that one for you to add extra,

604
00:53:58.015 --> 00:53:58.575
you know,

605
00:53:59.055 --> 00:54:13.020
places to send it just because you want to blast that block out as as far and wide as it will go the minute you find it, just in case there's a, you know, a competing block that gets found, you know, 20 milliseconds later. You want your block to be known around. The pool wants that. Everyone wants that.

606
00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:14.720
That's awesome.

607
00:54:15.340 --> 00:54:23.440
Yeah. So, I mean, in short, we can't stop you from broadcasting your block. So you become more of just, like, kind of a, like, a coordination server. You're just kinda Exactly.

608
00:54:24.460 --> 00:54:28.035
And this, I mean, there's plans for us to disintermediate

609
00:54:28.415 --> 00:54:30.035
further, but that's not going to be

610
00:54:30.735 --> 00:54:34.355
DAM's first launch. But basically, the dream is P2Poo.

611
00:54:35.535 --> 00:54:38.595
Every miner does everything, and there's no central point of failure.

612
00:54:38.970 --> 00:54:43.390
Ocean's still doing a little bit because we're coordinating the rewards, but we have a way to,

613
00:54:43.770 --> 00:54:46.430
you know, the plan is to minimize that even further.

614
00:54:46.890 --> 00:54:50.990
But, I mean, I don't know how much we should get into that now. It's it's quite a way off.

615
00:54:51.805 --> 00:54:54.705
Yeah. I mean, let's stick with the things we got now,

616
00:54:55.165 --> 00:54:56.205
or at least in 2 weeks.

617
00:54:57.885 --> 00:54:58.385
The

618
00:54:59.005 --> 00:54:59.505
the

619
00:55:00.045 --> 00:55:00.945
so, I mean,

620
00:55:02.125 --> 00:55:07.620
mechanic, you know, me and you have and, I mean, I think Luke is still on the call. Yeah. Luke's still on the call.

621
00:55:08.180 --> 00:55:14.600
Luke since Luke hasn't chimed in, it's important to realize that everything we've said up until this point, Luke strongly endorses

622
00:55:15.140 --> 00:55:17.320
everything we've said because he hasn't spoken.

623
00:55:21.795 --> 00:55:23.895
Okay. It's an endorsement. In 2 weeks.

624
00:55:24.995 --> 00:55:27.335
What was that? In 2 weeks.

625
00:55:28.035 --> 00:55:28.935
In 2 weeks.

626
00:55:30.515 --> 00:55:50.050
I I think it's important to point out that people are using this today. It's not something that is, like, that doesn't exist, and we're just saying it'll be out. It there's people that are using it, and we found they found blocks with it already. Yeah. We've had blocks shop on mental space that stayed the name of the miner that made it. Right? That's cool. I like that little piece because social signal's important. It's cool that

627
00:55:50.475 --> 00:55:52.955
it shows who found the block. That's basically the only

628
00:55:53.835 --> 00:56:05.330
besides picking which transactions are in the block and maybe you're picking some that are your own transactions or something, like, that's the main incent that's, like, the main bonus of you finding it rather than someone else finding it. Right? Well, importantly,

629
00:56:05.630 --> 00:56:11.330
it's not it's not just who found the block. In fact, we designed and created the block. Right. So

630
00:56:13.070 --> 00:56:28.424
Who built the template? Right. Yeah. There's there's a difference between you as the miner and a pool that found the block, which is cool. Don't get me wrong. But if you didn't make it, I mean, you are not the miner. Like, that's that's just the line. There there is a line there. So anyway, where I was going with this,

631
00:56:28.905 --> 00:56:29.405
was

632
00:56:30.025 --> 00:56:37.110
mechanic, me and you have, like, we have I think we both care about Bitcoin a lot. I mean, I will say personally that I have a lot of respect for you,

633
00:56:38.930 --> 00:56:42.150
and we both have very strong opinions about things,

634
00:56:43.650 --> 00:56:48.390
which I think people should have strong opinions. Like, we'd it's just like a waste of time if you don't have strong opinions.

635
00:56:49.155 --> 00:56:50.775
And we've been a little bit

636
00:56:51.715 --> 00:56:55.735
kind of on the same side on the, like, the bullshit ordinals, inscriptions,

637
00:56:56.435 --> 00:56:57.655
spams, stuff,

638
00:56:58.515 --> 00:57:00.375
that we both think it's, you know,

639
00:57:00.730 --> 00:57:02.030
more or less a scam,

640
00:57:02.650 --> 00:57:03.150
and

641
00:57:03.530 --> 00:57:07.310
it's fleecing retail, and people are buying things that are worthless.

642
00:57:09.850 --> 00:57:10.350
But

643
00:57:10.650 --> 00:57:11.690
where we've differed

644
00:57:12.615 --> 00:57:22.155
and that is trending to 0, like, long term, like, none of this shit will have any kind of value and we'll, like, look back on it in a few years and people just be, like, what the fuck was that, like, why

645
00:57:22.455 --> 00:57:24.810
why were retards even doing that in the first place,

646
00:57:25.530 --> 00:57:27.310
like ICO's and stuff like that.

647
00:57:27.850 --> 00:57:33.390
And we're kinda already seeing it. I'm not gonna I don't wanna do the Jinx thing where I say that and then, like, Udi just, like,

648
00:57:34.170 --> 00:57:37.550
launches a bunch of things on chain, because I feel like that's what always happens,

649
00:57:38.495 --> 00:57:42.115
when people say that, like, oh, we're we're done with it now, and then it just happens.

650
00:57:43.535 --> 00:57:45.395
But where we've differed is,

651
00:57:45.935 --> 00:57:49.155
like, how we respond to that situation.

652
00:57:49.535 --> 00:57:51.955
Right? And I've been more of, like, a

653
00:57:52.839 --> 00:57:58.060
transaction fee maximalist, like, oh, they're just gonna spend a shit ton of money and then they'll run out of money,

654
00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:01.000
and you've been on the side of,

655
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:13.085
because you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but you've been more on the side of, oh, well, like, there's, like, real things that we can do today to to to stop the effect on UTXO Bloat and stop it from happening.

656
00:58:13.385 --> 00:58:15.165
Whether it's nodes not relaying

657
00:58:15.705 --> 00:58:17.325
transactions or whether it's

658
00:58:17.785 --> 00:58:21.005
Ocean not having a template that includes them in the first place.

659
00:58:22.780 --> 00:58:25.520
Was my synopsis relatively good before I continue?

660
00:58:26.780 --> 00:58:30.059
Yeah. Sure. I don't disagree with what you're saying. Awesome.

661
00:58:31.180 --> 00:58:33.680
And so am I right though that in this situation,

662
00:58:34.059 --> 00:58:36.960
like, if if this shit continues or whatever,

663
00:58:37.635 --> 00:58:39.495
like, Ocean could be, like,

664
00:58:41.395 --> 00:58:42.935
the, like, the best pool

665
00:58:43.475 --> 00:58:47.795
to mine descriptions on. And, like, are you guys cool with that? Is that, like,

666
00:58:49.869 --> 00:58:53.090
Well, yeah, we've said that unequivocally. Right? It's

667
00:58:53.470 --> 00:59:01.490
the deep principle is that miners should be able to put what they want in blocks. And we But at the same time, miners shouldn't protect everything in the block.

668
00:59:02.910 --> 00:59:03.970
It's all for 2.

669
00:59:05.155 --> 00:59:09.655
I'm not sure if people are making you out. You kinda sound a little muffled. I have no idea what you said.

670
00:59:11.234 --> 00:59:30.619
I I do believe in Luke Clark. Correct me if I'm wrong. You said that people shouldn't be putting that stuff in their blocks. You shouldn't do it. But you But that's a different question. Right? Yeah. It's it's a free speech thing. And if I if I don't care about speech I hate, then I'm not into free speech. Right? Right. You have to be able to do it. We want minors to be able to do it. There was also that, like,

671
00:59:31.105 --> 00:59:50.250
happy irony I like to sort of pontificate on where if these things all get branded as unregistered securities and suddenly the centralized pools can't mine them, then the only way to do it is ocean. That would just be the kind of irony that happens. Right? Even though we were the pull against it. And I would just find that funny. That's That's what I'm saying. Like, it could be, like, it could be the pool.

672
00:59:51.270 --> 00:59:53.290
Yeah. For sure. I think I think

673
00:59:53.750 --> 01:00:17.240
because people just look at it comes down as a retort, and this is a bit of tangential to the spam conversation. But one of the critiques of Ocean was and it's the last topic, which was, you know, if Mara can go out there and get, like, the world's best fees for its block space and, you know, take out of band transaction fees to guarantee that you get in the blockchain in 6 hours or whatever or give you 99% of a guarantee because they have enough hash

674
01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:33.595
rate, then people are like, well, they're always going to have the most fees in their in their blocks. And Ocean with a decentralized model can never compete with that. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. It's just there's a flip side to that argument, which is centralized template constructors also have to comply with regulations.

675
01:00:33.895 --> 01:00:35.995
Decentralized ones don't. So

676
01:00:36.615 --> 01:00:37.755
in some circumstances,

677
01:00:38.215 --> 01:00:38.715
decentralization

678
01:00:39.015 --> 01:00:40.875
is more lucrative. In other circumstances,

679
01:00:41.175 --> 01:00:58.190
centralization is more lucrative. It's not always just better to be centralized until you get shut down or regulated. That's not the case. Right? So that was kind of my point with that. I want to see block space get kind of weird. That that would be healthy Bitcoin to me, where what's in blocks just is kind of strange

680
01:00:58.565 --> 01:01:17.670
and unpredictable because right now, like, you have this perspective out there. Most people refer to the mempool as the mempool implying that there is like a cohesive vision around what's going in the next block. That's how mempool space present it. Everyone talks about the mempool. And of course, if you had such a thing as the menpool, you wouldn't need a blockchain.

681
01:01:17.970 --> 01:01:19.829
Right. That implies that we have a complete

682
01:01:20.210 --> 01:01:20.710
congruent

683
01:01:21.010 --> 01:01:24.789
universal agreement around what there is and the order in which it was created.

684
01:01:25.170 --> 01:01:27.910
That's not true. Everyone's menpool is different,

685
01:01:28.355 --> 01:01:34.535
and your mempool is a reflection of ultimately what you'd like to see in the chain. So coming back to the spam,

686
01:01:35.155 --> 01:01:37.734
the disagreement around spam that you and I have,

687
01:01:38.035 --> 01:01:39.015
one of my contentions

688
01:01:39.315 --> 01:01:47.110
is that as a node, you have absolutely no incentive to relay JPEGs around. You're not interested in storing them. They're unspendable. UTXOs.

689
01:01:47.890 --> 01:01:49.990
They make IBD worse for everyone

690
01:01:50.370 --> 01:01:53.910
and no one is paying you to relay it. At the end of the day, minus

691
01:01:54.245 --> 01:02:03.625
maybe they have, you know, 8¢ worth of incentive to put it in a block. Sure. But as a node, I have absolutely no interest. So You have one you have one incentive.

692
01:02:04.245 --> 01:02:07.690
What what's that? If you don't want Wiz to dictate

693
01:02:08.150 --> 01:02:10.410
what your transaction fee estimation is.

694
01:02:10.950 --> 01:02:14.809
Well, mempool space uses a that's exactly it. Right?

695
01:02:15.269 --> 01:02:29.275
Not not really. No. Well, mempool uses the fee estimation approach of there is 1 mempool, and we will use that to estimate whether you're gonna getting in the next block or not. But that's not how Bitcoin software actually usually does it. It looks backwards

696
01:02:29.575 --> 01:02:33.035
and says, here's what the average things have been in blocks. Because

697
01:02:33.410 --> 01:02:46.790
one approach is robust. And in the future, like, if every if everyone is solo mining and putting weird stuff in the chain, you don't look at your mempool and go, alright, here's how much I got to pay. If your mempool has nothing to do with what other miners are putting

698
01:02:47.155 --> 01:02:47.655
into

699
01:02:48.275 --> 01:02:51.175
into the chain. And the latter approach

700
01:02:51.875 --> 01:02:53.495
implies that we have decentralization.

701
01:02:53.955 --> 01:02:59.655
The former doesn't. And it's a concern. If there is, like, like I say, if there is a the mempool

702
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:04.220
and you can predict what is in the next block with near 100% certainty,

703
01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:05.660
that implies

704
01:03:06.519 --> 01:03:08.859
that everything has become completely centralized.

705
01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:13.099
It's always a guess.

706
01:03:13.640 --> 01:03:18.234
I mean, it's it's an estimation. You're making an estimate. Right? And and,

707
01:03:18.535 --> 01:03:23.115
I mean, I would go up further than what you said. I would I would say, like, long term,

708
01:03:25.734 --> 01:03:26.234
like,

709
01:03:26.694 --> 01:03:33.869
decentralized block construction or distributed block construction, whatever term you wanna use, is gonna be more like, way more profitable

710
01:03:34.410 --> 01:03:38.030
than, like, centralized suit miners or suit pools or whatever,

711
01:03:38.809 --> 01:03:43.309
that have a central point of failure and have, like, all this bureaucracy that's attached to it because

712
01:03:43.755 --> 01:03:49.535
we will have a wide variety of transactions, and there will be a lot of transactions that they're just straight up not allowed to mine.

713
01:03:51.035 --> 01:03:52.734
But in the in the meantime

714
01:03:53.674 --> 01:03:54.414
in the meantime,

715
01:03:54.875 --> 01:03:56.255
if we were in a situation

716
01:03:57.355 --> 01:03:57.755
where

717
01:03:58.830 --> 01:04:02.370
I don't know the exact number, but it felt like we were at, like,

718
01:04:02.830 --> 01:04:03.330
70%,

719
01:04:03.950 --> 01:04:05.410
80% of transactions

720
01:04:05.710 --> 01:04:07.330
that were being included in blocks

721
01:04:07.630 --> 01:04:08.930
was bullshit transactions.

722
01:04:09.630 --> 01:04:11.890
And if you weren't seeing those bullshit transactions,

723
01:04:12.765 --> 01:04:19.904
you had, you know, you basically had to trust a third party to have any kind of insight there if you weren't running a node that was seeing them.

724
01:04:20.525 --> 01:04:22.385
Not really. Not really because,

725
01:04:23.565 --> 01:04:37.530
I mean, you're looking at the blocks that have been found. Right? You're not looking at what's in any kind of mempool. Like, really, that is how Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Knots do fee estimation. They don't look at the mempool. They look at what was the last block. Right. But mempool space looks at,

726
01:04:38.230 --> 01:04:50.865
mempool the mempool open source project, like, if you're running that on your start 9 or whatever, is looking at your mempool. You're right. The thing about it is you have to keep in mind the only reason they're able to do that with any reasonable amount of certainty

727
01:04:51.325 --> 01:04:57.349
is because everybody runs every miner is running Bitcoin core with default settings. Right. That's it. Centralization.

728
01:04:58.369 --> 01:05:07.430
And so they they can predict with pretty good accuracy what's going to end up in the chain because everybody's doing the exact same thing. Until a Mara pool block comes along. Exactly.

729
01:05:07.809 --> 01:05:20.555
Yeah. And and that throws everything off, including all the FPPS rates. And we go, oh, well, let's pretend that Right. Right? So it's not a robust way for fee estimation to work. The the Bitcoin and it doesn't even,

730
01:05:21.010 --> 01:05:30.390
you know, you have to deal with things like witness discounts and, I think who was it that was getting into this? It was AJ Towns, I think, that was like, no. There's a reason, like,

731
01:05:31.170 --> 01:05:36.665
mature adult version of fee estimation looks at what's been happening in the blockchain. It doesn't look at some sort

732
01:05:37.045 --> 01:05:53.460
of pretend mempool that's supposed to represent everyone else's mempool and be certainly what every miner will include in the next block, because you have no guarantees of any of that. It's all unknown. You can only go off the blockchain, which is like driving looking in the rearview mirror. Fair enough. It it's kinda ridiculous, but it's

733
01:05:54.180 --> 01:05:59.559
what's in the rearview min mirror is agreed upon by everyone. What's in front of you is just a perspective.

734
01:06:00.500 --> 01:06:11.775
Right. There's no global there's no global mempool. There's no there's no global state. There's a global state once blocks get confirmed. Or I mean, if you talk to There's a global mempool. Number of blocks are confirmed.

735
01:06:13.035 --> 01:06:13.535
Right.

736
01:06:14.315 --> 01:06:15.295
That's the innovation.

737
01:06:16.599 --> 01:06:27.580
Yeah. For sure it is, man. That's that is literally the Byzantine general's problem. It's like Right. If we could agree on a men pool, then we would both know to attack the city at 2 PM and neither of us would die. Right? You know the whole

738
01:06:28.095 --> 01:06:28.755
the whole

739
01:06:29.055 --> 01:06:31.395
fable or whatever you call it, the thought experiment.

740
01:06:32.415 --> 01:06:39.795
But, yeah, I mean, it I just wanna address some of the other things you said as well. It's probably good to do so. Getting sucked into the whole spam thing,

741
01:06:40.175 --> 01:06:42.275
with Ocean was very, very

742
01:06:43.230 --> 01:06:44.290
stressful and,

743
01:06:44.910 --> 01:06:49.010
ironic given that we wanted to make it minor's choice rather than anyone else.

744
01:06:49.310 --> 01:06:50.670
But looking back on it,

745
01:06:51.310 --> 01:06:52.850
I certainly learned a lot.

746
01:06:53.310 --> 01:06:53.790
And,

747
01:06:54.110 --> 01:06:57.250
at the time, I had a kind of knee jerk perspective

748
01:06:57.710 --> 01:07:13.680
on it. But over the over time, I sort of realized, actually, this is I was a lot more correct than I initially realized, and I wasn't really making very good arguments at the beginning of it. And over time, I began to realize how Bitcoin actually worked. And now I just when people are telling me that they have an ideological

749
01:07:14.059 --> 01:07:20.319
difference with me based on how I feel we should treat arbitrary data and how they feel it should be treated,

750
01:07:20.859 --> 01:07:25.839
invariably, they're always running Bitcoin Core with default settings, which literally just says

751
01:07:26.375 --> 01:07:48.130
a transaction could be any size as long as it can fit inside the max block size limit. Right? It can't be 5 megabytes, but it could be any other size. It can fit as long as it fits in the block. But if your arbitrary data I'm setting you to 83 bytes as a limit. We've and we've done that forever. We've always treated arbitrary data as different from financial activity, and no one ever had a problem with it or characterized it as censorship.

752
01:07:48.430 --> 01:08:00.595
It was always like, oh, if you wanna do that, you gotta use op return. And if you're using op return, you're only allowed 83 bytes. You can't put, like, a whole JPEG in an op return. You can you can get a minor to do it because it's consensus valid, but

753
01:08:00.974 --> 01:08:18.375
it's going to you're not going to be able to get it around the network. Right? So everyone stayed inside that limit. There were op returns all the time, but they would never be bigger than 83 bytes. And that was it. And knots had 42 bytes instead because that was an older limit that loop never changed in knots. And everyone suddenly was like, well, this is censorship.

754
01:08:18.855 --> 01:08:33.080
And I was saying, well, wait a minute. You're doing the same thing just to a different degree. Like, no one is running completely laissez faire men pool policies that just say everything is equal. Go ahead. All of it. No one is. And so when people would make, I'm saying, ideologically,

755
01:08:33.460 --> 01:08:41.480
we may disagree on paper. But in reality, what you're doing with your node that you've run-in completely default settings is ideologically

756
01:08:41.780 --> 01:09:03.440
aligned with me. It's just you haven't actually taken the time to look at what your node is doing. And then there were projects like Libra Relay that Peter Todd came out with where it's like, actually, we do want to have the ideological opposite position where we say there is no difference between arbitrary data and financial activity. And that was a new concept that entered the fray. And I'm like, fair enough if that's your position.

757
01:09:03.740 --> 01:09:06.780
But all we were doing when we came out with,

758
01:09:07.580 --> 01:09:10.640
you know, a more hostile attitude to arbitrary data

759
01:09:11.020 --> 01:09:16.080
was, we felt, completely congruent with how Bitcoin's worked forever since the op return wars

760
01:09:16.445 --> 01:09:16.945
since,

761
01:09:17.405 --> 01:09:28.305
Satoshi's time even when he was talking about things we can do to minimize people trying to store JPEGs and MP 4s in the chain. This was this has always had a reasonable precedent.

762
01:09:29.250 --> 01:09:32.870
I think I didn't do a very good job of explaining it when Ocean launched,

763
01:09:33.570 --> 01:09:44.895
and my knowledge wasn't really there yet. But over the as time has progressed, I've become more and more convinced that it was completely reasonable for us to do it and that it just was a marketing fail.

764
01:09:45.195 --> 01:09:48.255
And, again, I'm going to take most of the responsibility for that.

765
01:09:48.955 --> 01:09:57.935
I would also want to point out that Liber relay is kind of just a larp because it still has most of the spam filters in place. It just removed the one offered from the limit.

766
01:09:59.250 --> 01:10:01.590
Well, we're getting I was gonna mention that, but yeah.

767
01:10:03.170 --> 01:10:05.429
I mean, look. I think at the end of the day,

768
01:10:05.809 --> 01:10:06.309
like,

769
01:10:06.690 --> 01:10:08.790
one of the most beautiful things about Bitcoin

770
01:10:09.250 --> 01:10:11.655
is that you you get to choose what you run.

771
01:10:11.974 --> 01:10:12.934
Right? And,

772
01:10:13.895 --> 01:10:19.355
I I I think mempool policy is a particularly strong example of that,

773
01:10:20.215 --> 01:10:21.514
because it pretty much

774
01:10:22.135 --> 01:10:23.434
only affects yourself.

775
01:10:25.090 --> 01:10:31.190
And if if you wanna run a a different mempool policy than some if you if you want to, you can run no mempool,

776
01:10:32.450 --> 01:10:33.670
and that's your prerogative.

777
01:10:34.770 --> 01:10:37.590
The network should still function as designed.

778
01:10:38.825 --> 01:10:40.845
I I do think there is a,

779
01:10:44.105 --> 01:10:45.165
there is a concern

780
01:10:45.465 --> 01:10:48.685
that you end up in a situation. I think it's mostly

781
01:10:49.305 --> 01:10:53.780
a straw man or mostly I don't know if straw man is the right word. Maybe it's like,

782
01:10:56.480 --> 01:11:04.020
it's it's one of it's, it's like a borderline straw man where you have, like, this theoretical argument that probably will never happen in real life,

783
01:11:04.480 --> 01:11:06.900
but then people make you argue against it anyway,

784
01:11:07.575 --> 01:11:11.355
which is more or less, I think, the def definition of a straw man.

785
01:11:12.375 --> 01:11:12.875
But

786
01:11:13.175 --> 01:11:14.395
this idea that

787
01:11:15.095 --> 01:11:16.475
we do I think

788
01:11:16.855 --> 01:11:19.435
as big corners, we do want, in general,

789
01:11:20.430 --> 01:11:23.170
the majority of transactions going through,

790
01:11:24.190 --> 01:11:27.410
like, standard mempool relays around the world.

791
01:11:28.190 --> 01:11:44.415
Just like people actually like independent node runners relaying these transactions around the world rather than, like, the extreme example of being, like, 90% of transactions are just going straight to the pool and, like, no one sees them. I think that would be a a net negative. I don't think

792
01:11:44.795 --> 01:11:47.455
we really can comprehend, like, what the,

793
01:11:48.070 --> 01:11:58.010
like, the knock on effects of that type of situation at scale for a while is. But I think also in practice, like, that probably will never happen. And it can't happen if mining is decentralized.

794
01:11:58.710 --> 01:12:01.370
Yeah. Basically, it's no longer making this decision.

795
01:12:02.085 --> 01:12:08.745
Yeah. If you have that sounds like a pool problem rather than a PTP problem. Like, if there is only one pool,

796
01:12:09.525 --> 01:12:12.905
it whether you have a mempool or not, that's a massive issue.

797
01:12:14.740 --> 01:12:19.080
Right. But I mean well, I guess my point is is, like, there's something beautiful about the fact

798
01:12:19.940 --> 01:12:38.755
that we don't broadcast directly to pools. Yeah. For the most part, the majority of transactions. Right? You broadcast or not. Well, that's the that was the Yeah. That's my point. Right? It's like but you're just you're just broadcasting it to the network. It's getting relayed, you know, it's getting relayed around nodes and, like, eventually, it gets to a miner that mines the transaction.

799
01:12:39.295 --> 01:12:46.880
Yeah. And that's that's an important part of what. That's your power as a node. It's one of the many things that happens if you are a node is that you

800
01:12:47.659 --> 01:12:51.520
are relaying stuff that you think belongs in the chain and you're helping decentralize

801
01:12:52.139 --> 01:12:56.560
the communication between people that want to use the chain and people that put stuff in the chain.

802
01:12:56.935 --> 01:12:59.355
That's decentralized via the P2P layer.

803
01:12:59.815 --> 01:13:04.955
And, yeah, you wouldn't want to degrade it, but it's every single person on it is a sovereign individual.

804
01:13:05.335 --> 01:13:06.554
And if they're saying,

805
01:13:06.855 --> 01:13:11.835
like my note, I have a couple of nodes. Right? They don't relay anything. One of them relays op return.

806
01:13:12.180 --> 01:13:14.660
The others don't even relay that. They don't relay,

807
01:13:15.060 --> 01:13:16.440
arbitrary data. Right?

808
01:13:17.060 --> 01:13:18.180
And they're both set,

809
01:13:19.380 --> 01:13:21.800
they're both set to, 42 bytes.

810
01:13:22.340 --> 01:13:35.155
But that 42 bytes of data carrying includes the new kind that came along after, you know, the combo of Segwit and Taproot that allowed them, you know, all the the stuff to get outside what data carrier normally pertain to.

811
01:13:35.695 --> 01:13:36.195
And

812
01:13:36.495 --> 01:13:42.000
that's my vote. Right? Like, this is my mempool. There are others like it, but this one is mine. Like, it's

813
01:13:42.300 --> 01:13:51.920
if if they if minors find out about this stuff, they didn't find out about it from me, and I have no reason really to put it in there, and it's definitely not gonna make any difference to, to fee estimation.

814
01:13:52.620 --> 01:13:53.120
So,

815
01:13:54.215 --> 01:13:56.235
I think, yeah, keeping all that in mind,

816
01:13:56.695 --> 01:13:57.835
that seems to me

817
01:13:58.135 --> 01:14:08.955
a logical way for minors to offer for sorry, for people running nodes to operate on the network. I I I think it's overblown the idea that there's any fee estimation issues as a result.

818
01:14:09.690 --> 01:14:10.190
And,

819
01:14:10.730 --> 01:14:14.989
It actually, improves the estimation if you use better spam filters.

820
01:14:16.330 --> 01:14:20.590
But then you're no longer looking and saying, why didn't that transaction get in? Okay.

821
01:14:21.575 --> 01:14:32.395
That is that is true. If the minute there's a pool like Ocean exists as well, like but I'm not getting into the weeds of that one. I'm gonna start falling over myself trying to explain it.

822
01:14:34.789 --> 01:14:37.130
Do you do do you wanna get into the weeds, Luke?

823
01:14:39.510 --> 01:14:48.809
Yeah. I mean, good fee estimation algorithms look at what transactions you saw when they were broadcast, and then which ones got mined, how long it took them to get mined.

824
01:14:49.355 --> 01:14:53.054
And if you're look if you're including spam in your memory pool,

825
01:14:53.515 --> 01:14:56.094
and they're not getting mined, it it's gonna look like

826
01:14:56.475 --> 01:15:04.255
maybe they didn't have enough beer, who knows what, and it's going to skew your fee estimation to think that you have to pay more than you might really actually have to.

827
01:15:05.610 --> 01:15:10.910
But if you filter the spam, then you're just not paying it any attention. You're only looking at the transactions

828
01:15:11.290 --> 01:15:14.110
that are most likely going to get mined by everybody.

829
01:15:14.650 --> 01:15:18.270
Interesting. So the the tab, the most accurate fee estimation,

830
01:15:18.650 --> 01:15:19.950
if it works that way,

831
01:15:20.325 --> 01:15:25.705
you wanna make sure you're only accepting transactions that are most likely to get in the chain.

832
01:15:26.325 --> 01:15:28.304
Right. And even in

833
01:15:28.645 --> 01:15:35.940
even Bitcoin Core, when it accepts transactions, if it thinks that it's something abnormal about it, it will exclude it from fee estimation,

834
01:15:37.840 --> 01:15:43.620
which it it it doesn't work in the spam case because it's got the bug with the spam filters. But

835
01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:45.699
there are other cases where

836
01:15:46.204 --> 01:15:46.704
until

837
01:15:47.085 --> 01:15:47.585
recently,

838
01:15:47.965 --> 01:15:51.105
all RBF transactions were ignored for the estimation.

839
01:15:55.724 --> 01:15:57.905
Oh, that's interesting about the RBF stuff.

840
01:15:59.710 --> 01:16:03.490
I mean, what about the argument I'm kinda curious. So, like,

841
01:16:03.870 --> 01:16:09.970
I I mean, I think part of it part of it matters, like, what percentage of these transactions there are, and it matters

842
01:16:10.430 --> 01:16:12.450
how high the fee is of these transactions.

843
01:16:13.390 --> 01:16:13.890
And

844
01:16:15.304 --> 01:16:16.605
in our current situation,

845
01:16:17.065 --> 01:16:22.125
they've seemed to once again, I don't wanna jinx us into UTXO bloat,

846
01:16:22.665 --> 01:16:28.284
but it seems like mostly faded out. But I I mean, I I think a a decent example would be, like,

847
01:16:28.830 --> 01:16:30.930
the 20 blocks following the halving.

848
01:16:31.390 --> 01:16:31.890
Mhmm.

849
01:16:32.670 --> 01:16:35.090
Like, do you not see the argument that,

850
01:16:36.030 --> 01:16:41.970
let's say let's say Datum existed at that point. Let's say Datum existed at that point and I'm constructing my own blocks,

851
01:16:43.215 --> 01:16:47.955
as a miner. I I would like to see those transactions. Right? Like, what you're just gonna

852
01:16:48.815 --> 01:16:49.715
Well, those transactions

853
01:16:50.095 --> 01:16:58.480
Those transactions had a high fee, but they didn't actually they weren't actually scam transactions for the most part. They would have been if Ocean had found a block, they would have been in

854
01:16:58.860 --> 01:17:01.600
there. Yeah. I mean, that that's another thing. I mean, there were some,

855
01:17:02.700 --> 01:17:04.000
the default templates Yeah.

856
01:17:04.540 --> 01:17:06.080
The default template on Ocean,

857
01:17:06.780 --> 01:17:09.574
still, it doesn't filter all data. It,

858
01:17:10.215 --> 01:17:12.475
it enforces the original limit of

859
01:17:12.935 --> 01:17:23.835
42 bytes. And it originally up until recently would would also allow that with the I forget what what that flag was called, but, like, nonstandard data carrier or something like that,

860
01:17:24.550 --> 01:18:03.900
which was basically Inscriptions. So most of those were in Ocean's block. I mean, it's That's interesting. What we were trying to mine because they actually stayed within that limit for the most part, and a lot of the the current data carrying stuff does stay within that limit. So you'll see a lot of that in some of Ocean's blocks. Now we also give the template option of not mining any of that. And some people do that. And then Datum gives you the full option to do whatever if you wanna mine them or not. And that's up to you. And I love that. That's it's not our problem. You if you wanna mine it, you mine it. If you don't, you don't. Yeah. But there's our data and there's our data and there's there's bug abuse and there's non standard use. Right? Like,

861
01:18:04.360 --> 01:18:10.540
oceans blocks contain a lot of upturn data at the moment. I believe that's mostly just what people call ruins.

862
01:18:11.135 --> 01:18:12.575
And Yeah. I'm kind of

863
01:18:13.375 --> 01:18:35.660
while I don't like 90% of block space being, you know, up return stuff, at the same time, it is the least harmful kind of update that we've that we've seen over the last year and a half by far. Right? Ordinals was an attack on fungibility, which is insane. Like, Bitcoin's money. And if you try and say that one sat doesn't equal one sat, that's like Yeah. With that, you might as well start attacking 21,000,000 as well. It's that fundamental.

864
01:18:36.120 --> 01:18:52.125
Like, if you try and turn it into a collectible so that different sets of a different amounts, you lose the entire efficiency of what money is in the first place because everything becomes barter again. You have to you have to value each unit of it independently, and you have to subscribe to some centralized interpretation.

865
01:18:52.780 --> 01:19:14.415
Yeah. Because it's not even inherent to chain on chain stuff either. Yeah. It's and yeah. And also, it's nothing to do with Bitcoin. It's a stupid is a statement of this, but yeah. KYC is an imposed interpretation on top of Bitcoin. It's like that's a good Bitcoin. That's a bad Bitcoin. We know that undermines the neutrality of the currency. Right? So ordinal was like its own kind of terrible. Then you had the,

866
01:19:15.135 --> 01:19:22.150
what was it called? The, Stamps 1, which was just intentionally bloating the UTXO set. And that went from 90,000,000 in 2022

867
01:19:22.450 --> 01:19:23.110
to 200,000,000

868
01:19:23.490 --> 01:19:24.470
by the end of 2023.

869
01:19:24.850 --> 01:19:28.630
And now you can't sync a node on a Pi 4 anymore just because of that.

870
01:19:29.010 --> 01:19:31.430
So, like, that was that was, like, a major detriment.

871
01:19:31.810 --> 01:19:33.525
The stuff that's mostly making it in blocks

872
01:19:34.165 --> 01:19:39.145
at the moment doesn't do that. It doesn't attack fungibility, and it doesn't bloat the UTXO set. And this is rooms?

873
01:19:39.685 --> 01:19:55.780
Yeah. So I'm just, like, I don't mind that as much. Right? Because it treating it all as equal is, like, again, some spam is worse than others. You know, this is go on, Jason. I was gonna say on on the technical side, I mean, you have to keep in mind, there's been the compromise in place for years,

874
01:19:56.320 --> 01:20:01.699
to allow op return. And Right. They went within the framework of that, and

875
01:20:02.375 --> 01:20:19.110
everybody was already on board with it. Not that anybody wants that to be a thing. I mean, to me, ideally, Bitcoin is financial transactions and nothing else. And if there were ever a way to, like, enforce that at the consensus level, that'd be great. I don't think we're anywhere near that. But the I don't know. Is that even possible?

876
01:20:19.809 --> 01:20:32.630
There's Yes. Yeah. There's ways to hard work to do it, but, maybe even soft work to do it. But I don't know I don't know how we could do it. It's technically a soft work, but socially, it'd be kind of a hard work because you'd break all the old addresses.

877
01:20:33.115 --> 01:20:33.935
Right. Exactly.

878
01:20:34.475 --> 01:20:38.255
So, I mean, it's doable, but would it ever happen? I don't know.

879
01:20:39.035 --> 01:20:48.415
But anyway practice like I agree with that too. Yeah. Not not to defend the rooms or anything like that, but they are still sitting in in that compromised framework.

880
01:20:48.780 --> 01:20:50.960
And that's been around for a while and

881
01:20:51.340 --> 01:20:53.360
they're they're there. It's not as harmful.

882
01:20:53.900 --> 01:21:02.320
The worst part of the rooms is this bug they have for minting new ones where everyone who makes a bid gets their bid to mind instead of just the winner.

883
01:21:03.195 --> 01:21:17.215
Right. It almost seems like there should be, like, a consensus level thing that people add on for it, but then that would be endorsing it and probably a mess anyway. But but at at least it's not something that's bloating the UTXO. It's not it's it's just adding the data, which is annoying.

884
01:21:17.670 --> 01:21:19.130
But at the same time,

885
01:21:19.510 --> 01:21:21.130
we kind of tolerate it.

886
01:21:22.710 --> 01:21:23.910
Yeah. I mean, I

887
01:21:26.230 --> 01:21:27.770
you guys know a lot about,

888
01:21:28.470 --> 01:21:29.925
all of these shitcoin shit.

889
01:21:30.965 --> 01:21:38.105
It reminds me of when I had to do it, like, a deep dive on the stacks bullshit just to, like, argue against everybody.

890
01:21:38.565 --> 01:21:40.665
Yep. So I feel for you.

891
01:21:41.844 --> 01:21:46.489
Hey. Hey, Matt. Just to chime in. You mentioned the the high fees after the having.

892
01:21:46.869 --> 01:21:51.210
The one of the ironic things is that a lot of the focus was on

893
01:21:51.829 --> 01:21:54.650
on the, like, you know, filtering spam,

894
01:21:55.110 --> 01:21:57.530
you know, potentially resulting in lower

895
01:21:57.945 --> 01:22:10.445
lower revenues in the in the blocks, which I I think Jason's been been sort of monitoring, like, every single block we found, you know, with and without the spam has has been within a fraction of a percent in terms of overall

896
01:22:11.060 --> 01:22:13.480
revenue that a minor sees. However,

897
01:22:13.940 --> 01:22:18.200
the the FPPS payout mechanism, which is what all the other pools use,

898
01:22:18.660 --> 01:22:22.920
is is completely breaks down when you see high like, a high transaction

899
01:22:23.300 --> 01:22:23.800
environment.

900
01:22:24.195 --> 01:22:24.935
Because algorithmically,

901
01:22:25.795 --> 01:22:26.855
what they do is

902
01:22:27.555 --> 01:22:29.095
every day, every 145

903
01:22:29.555 --> 01:22:34.935
block period, the the 3 highest paying blocks are removed as outlier summit from the calculation,

904
01:22:35.315 --> 01:23:00.625
and miners' hash hash price is a result of the average of what's whatever's left over. So miners have mechanic mentioned this earlier, but miners have been telling us that, hey. I'm earning 10% more than this pool. I'm earning 15% more, 7% more. That money is coming as a result of these, you know, lopping off the top of these Right. Right? These these, these It almost like paying out the median. So when you have, like, these super high payout blocks,

905
01:23:01.165 --> 01:23:12.700
you're just missing all of it. That's exactly what we do. And and something else, when you look at the ocean blocks kinda compared to the like, we we have we have multiple templates. So if you compare the core template to the default template,

906
01:23:13.160 --> 01:23:14.380
sometimes the default

907
01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:19.500
wins in fees because of just the transaction packing algorithms able to get

908
01:23:19.880 --> 01:23:20.860
different transactions

909
01:23:21.160 --> 01:23:27.665
in that end up amounting to more fees. And it it doesn't happen all that often, but it does happen because

910
01:23:28.365 --> 01:23:38.940
it that's just how it works. So it's it the the argument that, like, ocean miners earn less because we have some kind of data carrier filter or something like that on the default is

911
01:23:39.720 --> 01:23:49.420
kind of crazy. No. I mean, I think I mean, just going back to what mechanic was saying earlier, like, I think long term, like, if you guys survive and continue momentum and

912
01:23:49.800 --> 01:23:54.015
and and scale up and keep, like, slow and steady accumulating hash,

913
01:23:54.575 --> 01:23:55.475
Like, I think

914
01:23:55.855 --> 01:24:08.915
it'll it it won't it won't take too long before it'll be really obvious that you make more money mining a notion, which unfortunately Right. For unfortunate or good, you know, is probably a stronger argument than freedom for most people.

915
01:24:10.120 --> 01:24:13.180
It's it is the strongest argument. It's just make more money.

916
01:24:14.280 --> 01:24:20.620
But that makes sense to me. I mean, I I think I think at the end of the day, like, I'm pretty sure, like, everyone on this call agrees on 99%.

917
01:24:22.525 --> 01:24:30.784
And I I just wanna say just straight up, like, I'm just really grateful that you guys have been building out Ocean and that you exist and that would be a a lot darker timeline in

918
01:24:31.085 --> 01:24:32.945
in Bitcoin right now if you didn't.

919
01:24:34.370 --> 01:24:40.470
I mean, before we wrap, I have one last topic for you guys. It's a topic, that's near and dear to my heart,

920
01:24:41.890 --> 01:24:42.710
which is,

921
01:24:45.810 --> 01:24:48.230
the well, I mean, maybe not mempools.

922
01:24:48.995 --> 01:24:52.055
Just the amount of Bitcoin transactions in general.

923
01:24:52.515 --> 01:24:54.775
Like, how do you guys think about that? Like, just

924
01:24:55.475 --> 01:25:00.535
Bitcoin on chain transaction activity? I mean, I've specifically have said, you know, I have

925
01:25:01.380 --> 01:25:10.120
I have a a bet with Marty, my co host on my other show, Robert Hall recap, that goes all the way to the next having that I say mempools will not clear before next having.

926
01:25:11.060 --> 01:25:12.600
But even with that said,

927
01:25:13.220 --> 01:25:15.960
I'm, like, a little bit disappointed in the lack of

928
01:25:16.635 --> 01:25:26.335
real trend, you know, whatever. That's where all the argument comes. It's like, what is real transaction volume? But, financial transaction volume on chain, like, considering we have,

929
01:25:26.954 --> 01:25:40.640
you know, the largest asset manager in the world, BlackRock is in is is showing the coin and has their ETF, and it seems like Bitcoin has grown up in so many different ways. But it feels like transaction volume hasn't really.

930
01:25:41.100 --> 01:25:43.280
And it's not something you can necessarily very

931
01:25:44.165 --> 01:25:47.145
objectively measure, but I'm just curious. I mean, particularly,

932
01:25:48.565 --> 01:25:52.985
Jason and Luke who have been in the space for such a long time, like, how do you

933
01:25:53.525 --> 01:25:56.985
how do you grapple with that? Like, some days, like, I wake up and I'm just, like,

934
01:25:57.400 --> 01:25:59.260
I send so many on chain transactions.

935
01:25:59.640 --> 01:26:03.020
Like, is there just, like, 15 of us that are just

936
01:26:03.560 --> 01:26:05.500
doing it? Like, what's going on there?

937
01:26:07.320 --> 01:26:27.390
I don't know if Luke wants to jump in before me, but, but there's definitely more than 15. And if you look back at like a lot of the Aegis blocks from the back in the day, like, you would see a lot of blocks from that era were not full. Like they weren't packed to the brim full of transactions because there either weren't there weren't transactions to put in them. Yeah. And that

938
01:26:27.710 --> 01:26:28.450
is normal.

939
01:26:28.830 --> 01:26:32.210
Like it's there there may be a time. Nobody back then.

940
01:26:32.590 --> 01:26:43.245
Well not even that. Like there were exchanges and there were then there were other things that were generating transaction volume that may or may not have been like actual people doing so. I mean there was a lot of automation happening.

941
01:26:44.285 --> 01:26:49.105
But, like, there were blocks that were not full, and I I don't think that should be a scary thing,

942
01:26:49.805 --> 01:27:04.130
if the mempool clears, quote unquote. No. I I never say the mempool clears. I say mempool is clear. I there's always an s p m. I'm very pedantic I'm very pedantic about that. There's many mempools. I can't be used with the mempool, Jason.

943
01:27:04.590 --> 01:27:08.110
Yeah. Well, I I did the air quotes thing for anybody who's just listening. I don't

944
01:27:09.470 --> 01:27:17.465
but, but yeah. So I I don't think that should be a scary thing if there if there aren't a huge amount of transactions to mine. I don't think that's necessarily

945
01:27:18.005 --> 01:27:25.385
saying that there aren't people transacting with Bitcoin because you have to think that, like, a transaction in Bitcoin. I mean, you can have

946
01:27:25.925 --> 01:27:36.650
a less than 1 kilobyte transaction that sends the equivalent of 1 US dollar, and you can have the same size transaction in a block that sends a 1,000,000,000 US dollars. I mean, it's

947
01:27:37.210 --> 01:27:41.469
there's there's a big distinction there. So, I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean that people aren't transaction

948
01:27:41.955 --> 01:27:52.935
transacting. And Luke was about to jump in, it sounded like. Yeah. If you look at all this band that's been going on the last year, it seems pretty apparent that we would be doing just fine with 300 k box sizes.

949
01:27:53.315 --> 01:27:57.300
That was weird. I gave you the I gave you the t ball question for that.

950
01:27:59.460 --> 01:28:06.040
I mean, just to be clear, like, one of the metrics when I look at Bitcoin that is hard to fake,

951
01:28:06.420 --> 01:28:08.599
you know, is just fee paying transactions.

952
01:28:09.059 --> 01:28:23.250
Right? It's like, I mean, we've seen in the past, like, the IOTA's of the world, like, all these shit coins that have come and gone that are, like, oh, we have, like, amazing transaction per seconds, like, this all this shit. And it's, like, at the end of the day, it's, like, okay, well, I mean,

953
01:28:23.550 --> 01:28:27.330
you can fake that. If if you have a completely centralized network and you have 2 nodes,

954
01:28:27.710 --> 01:28:32.610
you can send millions of transactions just back and forth between yourself and you're not paying any fees.

955
01:28:32.990 --> 01:28:38.655
But once you start having fee paying transactions there, there's a real cost doing it, and then that's actually an objective measurement.

956
01:28:39.755 --> 01:28:43.675
So when I think about the health of the network a lot of the times, and this is not like,

957
01:28:45.835 --> 01:28:49.920
I I mean, it's not something I track. It's something I, like, just gut emotionally feel about,

958
01:28:50.480 --> 01:28:57.780
is is fee paying transactions and the quantity of fee paying transactions and how how often they're happening. And

959
01:28:58.160 --> 01:29:04.580
and to me, it's just it's one of those metrics that just seems to be lagging behind everything else, and I'm not necessarily

960
01:29:05.235 --> 01:29:08.295
I'm not giving the b cash argument because holding is using.

961
01:29:09.635 --> 01:29:15.494
I'm I'm not saying, like, we need this you need to spend bitcoin. I'm just saying, like, if it's actually your fucking money,

962
01:29:15.875 --> 01:29:21.210
you're probably spending it, and it's objectively true, particularly if you're paying transaction fees.

963
01:29:21.690 --> 01:29:24.350
I guess I think I have the same,

964
01:29:24.810 --> 01:29:37.375
like, concern. I've been around in Bitcoin for long enough that there's certain ideas that are supposed to transpire at some point. Like, the small block or argument was, miners are gonna carry on mining because there'll be so much transaction fees. You won't need subsidy anymore.

965
01:29:37.835 --> 01:29:42.175
And it isn't really happening. But at the same time, subsidy is still 3.125

966
01:29:42.715 --> 01:30:12.445
Bitcoin every 10 minutes. That's a lot of money. We're we're many harvings away from needing to prove that, you know, even even if people don't wanna frame it as a security budget thing, that that is a problem that defacto needs solving. I don't even know if I agree with that necessarily. I used to worry about it, and it used to be one of my rationales for small blocks. But if and when that problem manifest as being real, and if and when we prove that the theory around transaction fees filling the hole that subsidy has left behind,

967
01:30:13.145 --> 01:30:19.940
that we are still at least a decade or 2 away from that actually needing to be something we have to address.

968
01:30:20.640 --> 01:30:22.660
So at the moment, 3.125

969
01:30:23.200 --> 01:30:26.660
Bitcoin is enough, and it's 99% of what miners take home.

970
01:30:27.120 --> 01:30:28.100
Yeah. I mean, I guess

971
01:30:28.800 --> 01:30:45.915
to to kind of jump on your original question of, like, what kind of volume is out there. I guess a good metric is, like, running a default knots node with the 300 kilobyte blocks. And I do run 1, like, myself to see that. And that node is in no danger of running out of transactions to mine.

972
01:30:46.295 --> 01:30:47.514
Even even with

973
01:30:48.215 --> 01:30:49.755
the the the full spam filtering,

974
01:30:50.060 --> 01:30:56.160
I would never not have a 300 kilobyte block to mine and that block would yeah. Do you think on that node config,

975
01:30:57.900 --> 01:30:59.440
mempools will never clear again?

976
01:31:01.500 --> 01:31:02.715
I don't wanna say never.

977
01:31:03.514 --> 01:31:10.574
I don't wanna say never. It's very possible that Would do will we hit a point will we hit a point where there'll just always be a backlog?

978
01:31:11.034 --> 01:31:25.829
Well, when when's the last time where we mined an empty block? That was not like just bullshit empty block. No. Yeah. Just like a real empty block because the network found a block. Then a couple of minutes later, there were just no transactions in that time. So that next block was also empty. Has that ever happened?

979
01:31:26.369 --> 01:31:28.309
That's I mean, after, like, 2010.

980
01:31:28.610 --> 01:31:31.855
I was gonna say it's been a it's been at least a couple of years since I've seen it,

981
01:31:32.554 --> 01:31:33.614
but it has happened.

982
01:31:33.994 --> 01:31:34.574
I mean,

983
01:31:35.034 --> 01:31:36.974
the terms of our bet is, like, 3,

984
01:31:37.434 --> 01:31:37.934
like,

985
01:31:38.394 --> 01:31:41.375
3 not full blocks worth of,

986
01:31:41.755 --> 01:31:42.655
like, transactions.

987
01:31:43.970 --> 01:32:04.905
I don't think You're right. Like, if you if you wanna if you if you wanna hit people with semantics, it's like, what is a clear? But Right. Yeah. Because you never know if there's someone else with a couple of transactions that are sitting there. Right? Like, you don't you just don't know, and someone is always gonna have a longer history on their mempool than you might have. If you don't lose that bet, you just send a few transactions. Right?

988
01:32:05.525 --> 01:32:08.185
Yeah. There you go. Yeah. I mean, I just think,

989
01:32:09.080 --> 01:32:12.620
I mean, I just think you're not bullish on bitcoin if you think we're gonna

990
01:32:13.160 --> 01:32:18.700
if, like, we will never be in a situation, like, there was there it's classic bitcoin. Right? Where

991
01:32:19.640 --> 01:32:26.795
I was being provocative. I just wanted people to make sure that they had good UTXO management and were thinking about, like, long term fees,

992
01:32:29.014 --> 01:32:34.474
in in terms of in terms of UTXO size and whatnot. And the best way to do that was to be provocative.

993
01:32:34.855 --> 01:32:42.920
But, like, in classic Bitcoin fashion, like, there's a lot of counter, which is, like, mempools will always clear, that you'll always be able to get 1 sat per byte in

994
01:32:43.220 --> 01:32:56.825
eventually at some point, and I'm just I feel like, first of all, I think we're never gonna have another block size increase, that's insane to me, and I think we're always gonna have more bitcoin users and more and more people are gonna rely on it on their as their actual money,

995
01:32:57.205 --> 01:33:04.185
and as a result, if you do all three of those things, eventually we're gonna be in a situation where there's gonna be a forever backlog of transactions.

996
01:33:04.805 --> 01:33:05.625
Sure. And

997
01:33:07.000 --> 01:33:15.580
I just I've fund fundamentally, like, that's how I think about bitcoin. And maybe it's already happening and we're at the very early stages of it and it's very low or,

998
01:33:15.960 --> 01:33:25.765
you know, maybe it's still gonna be a couple years down the road or but I like the way you put it, because in my opinion, anyone that speaks in terms of certainty with what's gonna happen

999
01:33:26.625 --> 01:33:44.320
is blowing smoke up your ass. No one knows exactly what Bitcoin looks like in a couple of decades. There are different scenarios. Like, the covenants pros are telling you everyone's just gonna be using JPMorgan wallet to move their money around because no one will be able to afford on chain. Other people are saying, no, of course, they're all gonna fall back to 1 sat per byte. That's inevitable.

1000
01:33:44.860 --> 01:33:58.445
Like, there's there's just different perspectives on it and I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I know what the future is and I don't think anyone does. I agree. Yeah. I mean, I think eventually we probably will get to the point where we don't see one set per v byte anymore.

1001
01:33:59.224 --> 01:34:01.005
I don't know if that's now.

1002
01:34:01.400 --> 01:34:05.580
Whether whether or not we're going to like hit that low again before that happens.

1003
01:34:06.360 --> 01:34:18.225
But I mean ultimately if Bitcoin is going to be adopted long term we'll need well that will probably necessarily need to happen and we'll have to have like layer 2 stuff like lightning or other solutions like that to to handle

1004
01:34:19.245 --> 01:34:37.969
the bulk of like smaller transactions and stuff because you won't be able to get a lot of that in chain. And I think that's that's one of the big things about decentralizing templates is giving the miners control over the block space again so that when that becomes a thing and you need to be able to get a transaction in the block space, you need a way to do that without having to just,

1005
01:34:38.989 --> 01:34:39.969
go to a pool.

1006
01:34:40.349 --> 01:34:44.289
So that just kind of circling back to the whole theme of decentralization

1007
01:34:44.670 --> 01:34:45.165
there.

1008
01:34:45.645 --> 01:34:49.505
Oh, yeah, guys. Well, thanks for having a bit of fun with me at the end there. Sure.

1009
01:34:50.285 --> 01:34:53.265
I know time is scarce, so I think we should wrap.

1010
01:34:54.845 --> 01:34:56.945
Let's let's do some final thoughts.

1011
01:34:58.525 --> 01:34:59.025
Luke,

1012
01:34:59.370 --> 01:35:01.389
are you still with us? Final thoughts.

1013
01:35:01.690 --> 01:35:03.949
Yep. Hurricane hasn't taken me out yet.

1014
01:35:04.969 --> 01:35:08.989
Is that your that's your final thought? I'm that's good. I'm happy for you.

1015
01:35:09.850 --> 01:35:11.949
Do you have a final thought for us besides

1016
01:35:12.409 --> 01:35:14.590
yeah. You have another hurricane coming, dude.

1017
01:35:15.585 --> 01:35:16.325
Raise up.

1018
01:35:17.745 --> 01:35:21.445
Do you have any final thoughts to the audience on the topic of ocean and

1019
01:35:22.545 --> 01:35:24.005
making Bitcoin great again?

1020
01:35:29.090 --> 01:35:29.909
I don't know.

1021
01:35:31.330 --> 01:35:33.270
I respect it. I respect it.

1022
01:35:34.210 --> 01:35:35.510
Let's go to

1023
01:35:35.889 --> 01:35:37.190
mechanic. Final thoughts.

1024
01:35:38.050 --> 01:35:39.110
Yeah. I think

1025
01:35:39.724 --> 01:35:41.985
Bitcoin is always the alignment of

1026
01:35:42.364 --> 01:35:51.420
doing what's right and making a lot of money if you have conviction about that or getting distracted and playing silly games and losing money. So Ocean is

1027
01:35:51.980 --> 01:35:55.280
really reminiscent of that. The people that came with us were mostly ideological

1028
01:35:55.580 --> 01:35:58.719
about it. They wanted the transparency. They wanted the trustlessness,

1029
01:35:59.580 --> 01:36:00.080
permissionlessness,

1030
01:36:00.699 --> 01:36:08.155
KYC free, all that stuff. And then they just made loads more money than the other pools as well. So I was like, beautiful. That's just the way Bitcoin works. Right?

1031
01:36:09.255 --> 01:36:09.995
Love that.

1032
01:36:11.175 --> 01:36:12.395
Let's go with,

1033
01:36:13.975 --> 01:36:15.115
Mark. Final thoughts.

1034
01:36:17.200 --> 01:36:17.940
Yeah. We,

1035
01:36:18.720 --> 01:36:19.700
we we started

1036
01:36:20.240 --> 01:36:21.060
the Ocean

1037
01:36:21.680 --> 01:36:24.580
Resurrected Allegius mainly with the goal of decentralizing

1038
01:36:25.680 --> 01:36:26.000
the,

1039
01:36:26.560 --> 01:36:29.540
the intelligent parts of mining. This was the mission.

1040
01:36:30.105 --> 01:36:34.125
And along the way, we we learned that miners can actually make a lot more

1041
01:36:34.585 --> 01:36:44.605
money mining Bitcoin when you remove the middleman. So this is kind of like one of the, you know, the nice coincidences that has happened is like not only are we helping miners to be more in control

1042
01:36:45.110 --> 01:36:54.329
back in the power position, more sovereign, but they can actually make a lot more money too. So we're definitely the the practical pool for for miners that are concerned about the bottom line.

1043
01:36:54.789 --> 01:36:55.289
Badass.

1044
01:36:55.829 --> 01:36:58.250
Thank you, Mark. Jason, final thoughts.

1045
01:36:59.485 --> 01:37:04.864
I think everybody summed it up pretty well, but one of the things that's interesting is that until Ocean came along,

1046
01:37:05.965 --> 01:37:14.625
since Elegius was around, there wasn't a way to compare a lot of this stuff. Like, there wasn't a transparent pool and there wasn't a way to know, like, that you were kinda

1047
01:37:15.020 --> 01:37:16.240
dealing with that middleman

1048
01:37:16.620 --> 01:37:32.665
with the with the existing pools and and it's opened the eyes of a lot of people and I think as more as more people jump on board and realize that that's that's gonna be a big thing. The transparency aspect And then just adding even more to that to give the miners even more sovereignty. It's it's it's definitely gonna be a

1049
01:37:33.125 --> 01:37:34.505
it's gonna be a big thing.

1050
01:37:34.885 --> 01:37:36.905
I love it. Well, I wanna thank you guys.

1051
01:37:37.285 --> 01:37:41.945
I also wanna shout out Ian, the only cofounder not to join us. He's awesome.

1052
01:37:42.300 --> 01:37:42.800
And

1053
01:37:43.980 --> 01:37:45.280
thank you guys for building.

1054
01:37:45.659 --> 01:37:50.079
Thank you guys for for keep pushing forward on Ocean. Thank you for joining us on the episode.

1055
01:37:50.619 --> 01:37:52.559
I know I personally will be recommending,

1056
01:37:54.585 --> 01:37:59.005
Ocean to to any miner that asks me, which pool they should mine with.

1057
01:37:59.385 --> 01:38:01.085
We need to get that hash rate up,

1058
01:38:02.025 --> 01:38:04.925
and I think you guys are the best place to mine.

1059
01:38:05.545 --> 01:38:08.525
So let's make it happen. So so thank you guys, and

1060
01:38:10.010 --> 01:38:14.840
keep carrying on. Thanks so much for having us, man. Thanks for having us. Thanks, man. Cheers.

1061
01:38:26.735 --> 01:38:28.515
Our world is chaotic,

1062
01:38:28.975 --> 01:38:33.315
but life found its way by channeling energy to bring order to chaos.

1063
01:38:33.695 --> 01:38:38.034
It is in our nature to seek signals amongst noise because it is through communication

1064
01:38:45.480 --> 01:38:57.265
our evolution thrives in exchange of all the info we try to convey. They flow through to the marketplace and form the signals to regulate how we coordinate where things need to be. Price speaks so we learn to compete.

1065
01:38:57.645 --> 01:39:06.720
This drives us to efficiently shape the world with our voice. Now let the market speak. So we build, we sow, we trade, we grow to meet our wants and needs. We specialize

1066
01:39:07.120 --> 01:39:18.740
and drive from the mind our creations into reality, we make progress in our process to get more for less, advancing society. We fought for the dawn of the age of technology that harnessed the energy to reach prosperity.

1067
01:39:19.280 --> 01:39:25.915
Our money embodies the power to reap what we sow, so so the market becomes a channel for our collective energy to flow.

1068
01:39:26.295 --> 01:39:31.915
When value is traded for value, we are aligned and so we evolve. This is how amidst uncertainty,

1069
01:39:32.455 --> 01:39:33.994
life continues to grow.

1070
01:39:34.470 --> 01:39:42.170
But the dawn of tech gave rise to light speed information exchange, so to transact fast, we further abstract money from energy constraints

1071
01:39:42.550 --> 01:39:49.605
and became more aligned on a few large entities to coordinate trade, concentrating the power, resources, and authority to

1072
01:39:50.085 --> 01:39:57.945
create more and more of our money, distorting its signals, eroding its worth, and throwing us back into the darkness of chaos.

1073
01:40:13.130 --> 01:40:14.030
When we destroy

1074
01:40:14.410 --> 01:40:18.430
the mechanism of money, we destroy our ability to navigate

1075
01:40:18.915 --> 01:40:19.655
through uncertainty.

1076
01:40:20.434 --> 01:40:32.295
And when we can't trade value freely and directly, we must trust the few to govern the many. What happens when all our means center around an authority? Complexity builds now coordination,

1077
01:40:32.810 --> 01:40:57.935
relies on conformity. Observe our thoughts, the sense of dissent and coerce our actions. Can there be true innovation when there's no freedom of expression? What happens to our voice for ones that shape social discourse now whose ideas get created and which problems get solved. If our progress depends on hearing many sides to resolve, then why would we suppress the voice that shapes how humanity evolves? When we cut off the perspectives

1078
01:40:58.235 --> 01:41:03.099
that make up society, we lose sight of the truth that forms our entire reality.

1079
01:41:03.560 --> 01:41:10.219
Each person's contribution builds up our resiliency. Did we forget these differences are what strengthens humanity?

1080
01:41:11.560 --> 01:41:25.395
When communication breaks our words tend to silence, our acts become violent, and the world is divided, and our darkest truth is twisted by our pain and our bias, eroding the common ground, making us more and more fragile.

1081
01:41:26.655 --> 01:41:40.620
To navigate uncertainty, we must solve for robustness, so everything gets tried and tested by various efforts, until we discover the system that best coordinates us. Mirrors Life's process of channeling energy to create signal from chaos.

1082
01:41:41.160 --> 01:42:03.429
In the era of technology, we transform energy into computational power to process the noise of free markets into structured order, and just by looking at numbers, we can derive how much power is required to reduce chaos and inscribe a flow of value for order verify that our transactions happened in line with shared rules. We don't need to seek trust when we can see proof. It is real time consensus

1083
01:42:03.730 --> 01:42:23.235
that our lines is to evolve. This is how, amidst uncertainty, our lives continue to grow when we uphold our own rules. We preserve our own work and defend our own voice, which lets the true market emerge. The strength of the design lies in each of our participation since we are the nodes of channel, our energy end to end. As we claim this possibility

1084
01:42:23.615 --> 01:42:27.960
to uphold our own rights, we radiate the power that brings our truth

1085
01:42:28.340 --> 01:42:29.239
into light.

1086
01:42:32.980 --> 01:42:51.355
And when that dawn of light touches all parts of the glow and it ripples throughout society and it returns us the hope that becomes the power that sparks humanity to thrive, the same power that fuels the creation of the mind. And when our mind and our money are truly set free and they transcend the limits

1087
01:42:51.735 --> 01:42:53.034
of past boundaries,

1088
01:42:53.415 --> 01:43:00.650
now knowing becomes owning and ideas become wealth. What happens now? We can all push to expand the edges of our existence and assume

1089
01:43:00.950 --> 01:43:25.456
evolution when things are in the harness. As we head for the light, we have to push through the darkness that is in these moments. We do what we do best. We take the chaos in the darkness and use our power to create. It is in these moments when we're all in alignment and our freedom of difference ascends us to our highest and distant depth of it all. Though that hope is not gone, it is always the darkest before dawn.