CD144: CASHU WITH CALLE

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 11/18/2024 20:57:13
Duration: 9126.825
Channels: 1

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The price of Bitcoin briefly, hitting the 93,000,

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dollar level before pulling back. It's up more than a 150%,

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this year. Let's talk about the crypto market and bring in Matthew Siegel, head of, digital assets research,

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at Van Eck.

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I thought, Matt, that it was definitely,

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long in the tooth, this sort of,

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mania. You say there's

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in at least for your work,

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that you don't necessarily

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see that yet in terms of, whether it's totally overdone?

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Joe, we think it's just getting started.

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As we expected, Bitcoin saw this high volatility pump after the election.

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We're now in blue sky territory.

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No technical resistance, and we think we're likely to make repeated all time highs over the next two quarters.

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The same pattern played out 4 years ago. Between the election and the end of the year in 2020,

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Bitcoin doubled.

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There were about 6, 10% corrections, so it's not gonna be a straight line, but we're up 30%

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so far. And a number of indicators that we track are still flashing green for this rally to continue.

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This is a state change in terms of government support. Look at this cabinet, the VP,

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attorney general,

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director of defense, national security adviser,

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possibly

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even the secretary of treasury being pro Bitcoin.

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That's not

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including Elon and Vivek.

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So

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the number of calls that I'm getting inbound from investment advisers who are at 0 and looking to get to 1% or at 1% and looking to get to 3%,

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these calls are starting to accelerate,

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and we think the flows are gonna follow. So our price target for this cycle is a 180 k. We think we can reach that next year. That would be a 1000% return

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from the bottom to the peak this cycle. That's still the smallest Bitcoin cycle,

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by far.

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Low double from here, basically. You look at weird things,

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Matthew, like

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so you you Google search Google search for Bitcoin

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is is one of the the thing so you would expect

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if we were getting top of you would expect that that was off the charts, and and it's not yet?

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Google searches are nowhere near where they were 4 years ago.

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Coinbase's

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rank in the Apple and Android app stores,

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nowhere near where it was 4 years ago. Look at the internals of the derivative markets, what it costs for funding to put on Bitcoin futures trades.

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You know, it it's up. But once we get into this

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price discovery mode, it tends to stay elevated for

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quite some time.

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What if Gensler's gone as a Trump said on day 1 or someone said on day 1? I mean, I I can imagine that. I don't know when, though, it actually becomes of a sell on the news because they

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it I don't know. Maybe I'm just,

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think that it's it's more of a mania move now than it than it actually is, but it just seems like it's been a heck of a move. Think it'll move when Gensler's gone? If he's gone?

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Yeah. I think, you know,

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maybe the

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disappointment phase will set in, 1 to 2 quarters after the inauguration. There's really 4 major impacts here. Okay. You know, one is just the positive impact on dynamism

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when you stop suing people for breaking rules that have never been written down. That's a long way of saying that regulation by enforcement is gonna end. We're already seeing the economic impact of that. There are crypto projects that are announcing that they're gonna hold conferences in the US for the first time ever, open offices in the US and New York. It's just great for US jobs and GDP.

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Right? We've got the Bitcoin reserve that would legitimize

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this asset as a reserve asset, pave the way for it to be used as a global settlement currency as the BRICS countries have been doing.

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You know, president Trump recognizes the synergies between Bitcoin and AI. They are two sides of the same coin. If you wanna have

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cheap AI,

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you're gonna wanna combine it with Bitcoin mining to take advantage of that cheap power.

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They're telling me we got,

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I don't know, Disney, Bitcoin. They're both important, obviously. We gotta get the, we gotta get moving, and, we got, the CFO. But we appreciate your time today, Matt. Thank you.

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Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks.

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It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro was from, the largest Bitcoin podcast in the world, CNBC Squawk Box.

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They were interviewing some guy from VanEck who thinks,

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Bitcoin is gonna go up higher.

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I think it was very topical for our discussion. Looks like I just lost Cali,

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but he'll be back in a second.

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We have. It's actually not topical at all for our discussion,

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but the Bitcoin pump continues. We are in open water Bitcoin, And,

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it seems like, Bitcoin is doing its thing, melting faces,

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as it tends to do

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every 4 years or so.

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We have Cali joining us. He has been on the show in the past. He is the prolific maintainer of

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Cashew.

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Let's see. He just

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messaged me because he got disconnected. He's coming back.

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And I also seem to have some technical difficulties with the live chat. I don't know what's going on with ZapStream right now,

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but we are live.

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The chat you see on the screen is from

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last week's episode.

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But

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this is why we still stream to YouTube,

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and

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Twitch.

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So there are some people joining us from those streams right now, and hopefully, I'll have the ZapStream up soon.

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It says it's sending data,

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but ZapStream is not receiving it.

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And we are waiting for Cali.

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While we're waiting,

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this show is supported by freaks like you,

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who send sats to the show. We have no ads or sponsors.

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I think we're the longest running largest audience show that's not run by Adam Curry

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that runs on a pure value for value,

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method

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where you donate

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your hard earned Bitcoin, your scarce Bitcoin,

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to support the show rather than relying on ads or sponsors.

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The 2 easiest ways to do that is either through the live chat,

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which like I said, is not working right now, or you can zap live,

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or through podcasting 2 point o apps like Fountain Podcasts.

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And our 2 largest boosts from last week's episode

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were from Stimmy Yourself with Bitcoin.

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He's on 21,000 sats. Said holy shit. Nobody's bullish enough. And we had Reid with 14,141

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sats saying consensus is messy. This is a feature, not a bug. I tend to agree with him.

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Those came in through podcasting 2.0.

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While we're waiting for Cali,

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I'm gonna try and get this ZapStream

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working

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better.

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Of course, his internet completely failed him as soon as we went live.

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But

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that's the beauty of a live show, isn't it?

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We just do it live and we don't really know

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what will happen.

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I'm freaks. I know my audio last week wasn't ideal.

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I was on

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kind of a shitty connection, but I'm trying to work on it. So I think it's probably much better

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now. I

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made some changes.

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But just know it's a priority. It's obviously not intentional. I want you guys to have

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the best quality possible.

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Yeah. I don't know why Noster is not working right now. Well, Noster is working to be clear.

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This is just

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Zap dot won't let me connect.

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Oh, nice of Cali to join us.

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Yeah. Yeah. Loving me. Thank thanks for joining us. You had me, I had to

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I had to, hold the there in the rain, man. Yeah. You left me just standing here.

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Wait. So here's my avatar. What's up, freaks? There we go. Interruption.

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My my Internet. I'm on Starlink right now, and Starlink is fucking amazing, but I think

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Did we lose you again?

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I think I lost you again.

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Starlink is fucking amazing, but sometimes when it switches between satellites,

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you lose connection briefly.

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I think I lost you again.

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Did you mute yourself?

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This episode's off to a great start.

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I think,

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are we are we screwed?

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Yeah. Could be. I mean, let's see. Let's just pray. Let's let's start going and see how far the Internet takes us. Okay. Well, worse worse comes to worse if,

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if if we have to scrap this episode, we'll, we'll reschedule swiftly. Yeah. We'll find a way. Near future. Should we talk about the the clip that you just, I don't know if you talked about it already because it dropped out. That was Did you enjoy the intro clip? I felt like it was very topical for our conversation.

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Yeah. Absolutely. First of all, I wanna say, like, all of these snake oil salesman, they're, like, when if you're watching this for a while, you'll notice that you see you know, they they'll say the same thing every time. The only thing that has changed right now is the price, not what they say. So that's that's important to remember.

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You know, like, what was it? Google search is not up. Coinbase,

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app

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ranking on app store is not up. In fact, Coinbase is still up still up as well.

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As long as Coinbase is still up, the bull market hasn't started.

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I find that

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very amusing, especially the guy when he, compared Disney stock to Bitcoin at the end.

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Yeah. I mean, I I just

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I love how during bull market, CNBC just turns into a Bitcoin podcast.

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And usually it's not relevant to anything,

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on the show, but, I like it as a kind of like a time stamp to look back and, you know,

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Citadel Dispatch is going for about 3 years now.

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And,

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you get to find out what,

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the largest Bitcoin podcast in the world is talking about at that time every every episode.

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I also wanna say, I mean, price going up is great for everyone. Right? But,

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except if you trust the ECB, then it's it's bad for all the for the entire population that does not own Bitcoin. But aside from that,

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price going up is great for everyone. But what I wonder in these price rallies is how much of that is trading versus saving. Right? I think saving Bitcoin is what ultimately puts a bottom

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to

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to the price.

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And as more people accumulate without the intention of ever selling, we're going to just raise the bar all the time.

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But,

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for a rally like this

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and with all these, you know, magical indicators pointing towards,

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like,

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no particular activity with at least plebs,

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I wonder, you know, will some people get wrecked because of it and people starting to buy in at 92

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k,

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will probably melt some cases off in both directions.

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They should just stay on Bluemstack. That's about it.

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Yeah. You just turn off your brain. You,

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turn on the DCA.

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Did you see,

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I had a a noster a noster note I was quite proud of.

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You you should have stayed humble in StackSats. You still can, but you should have to.

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I think it's always a good time to to stay humble in StackSats.

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So by the way, Cali, while you were having your technical difficulties, I was having technical difficulties with ZapStream,

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but I got it on. So now we have the live chat. The live chat's working. Yeah. I can see some messages going on. It's all good. Should we restart the show? Do you wanna watch the 5 minute intro clip again? Oh, no. I I think I'm good.

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Did anyone else see it as well?

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Did you

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I mean, they'll see it in the recording or whatever. YouTube and Twitch got it, but

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the ZapStream literally just went live.

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But you guys didn't miss anything in ZapStream. Right? We appreciate you, and you're the ride or die, and I'm glad we got you on.

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The intro clip was, you know, mostly mostly a joke, but also hilarious.

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Cali, did you see what I named this episode?

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What is it? Is it c d 144 cashew with Cali? Yeah. You like that?

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I mean, I love fucking cashews.

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Yeah. I love it a lot. Last rip I did with Cali,

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everyone everyone should go everyone should go listen to it, but, he was he was kinda pissed off of me afterwards because I I I kept writing e cash everywhere, and I didn't say cash you by name. Yeah. Because you're a Fed investor. That's why.

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Dude, there's enough conspiracies out there. You don't have to feed the fire. We can

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it has it had nothing to do with that.

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You're proving that you're inviting me more often than the FedDev. So There you go.

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But yeah. So I I made it up to you. I did a super simple name that is literally just

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three words. 1 is 1 is your name, and 1 is the name of your project. So you're welcome. I I think we could have dropped the middle word there as well. Just Cassie Cali? Yeah. Okay. Well, neck next time. I I I would like you to always be a repeat guest. It's always some of the most fun rips and especially the conversations we have offline are always a lot of fun. The lost podcast episodes that no one else gets to listen to.

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So what do you wanna talk about? The the project has come a long way

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since we last spoke.

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I think

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I have no idea when we spoke last. Do you know when we spoke last?

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No idea. It was sometime this year, but things are changing. Like, things are happening so fast that it's hard to, keep track. So cache itself is 2 years old. And

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and when I say that, I mean, like, the first initial release of the software that I did where I didn't even have this whole plan of making,

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protocol out of it where others can join and participate. So I would maybe cut off, like,

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6 months from that

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in the beginning because it was just, like, one dude doing something.

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And when it became a protocol

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with that, I mean,

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becoming a protocol means, in my definition, writing the spec and then having independent

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implementations

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adhering to the spec instead of just adhering

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to one guy's,

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code base,

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that's where things started to take off. And at this point, like, I'm I'm literally losing,

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the overview myself, which is a beautiful, beautiful

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feeling to have just to see that this thing is going on. Lots of projects people are working on. Often, I hear about them when when they post on

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Nostra or on Twitter. So there's a lot of stuff happening

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without me being aware of it. And when I find these projects,

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then it's just the best feeling ever.

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I I think, like, my

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for for next year, my goal would be to

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to get to a stage where I can comfortably or confidently say that,

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if if if I write or die,

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if I choose the

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the branch of dying instead of writing,

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so, like a bus accident or something that the project will continue. That will be like that that will be my primary objective. Please don't die.

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We still need more attention. No There's still more there's still more work to be done. I always like to say that,

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I mean, OpenSats, like, our goal at OpenSats,

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is, you know, to to operate at a scale

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operate at scale that that no other charity does, period.

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You know, right now we're paying out nearly 200 grantees. I think actually maybe a little bit more than 200 grantees

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and 40 plus countries.

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But there's something to be said that there's, like, a there's a few people. There's a few open source contributors out there that are just, like, a step above,

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that if we could if if if we could

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somehow enable, like, 10 Cali's in the world,

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to to come into Bitcoin and start working on Freedom Tech

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in in a real way like you've done, I mean, I think

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the we change everything. Like, I think then we have massive success. So,

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please don't leave us. We still need you, but I I do appreciate,

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the massive progress you've made from, like, derisking yourself from the project. So I just looked it up.

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We last spoke March 2024,

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which I think winds up. I think on that show, I said it'd be nice to do it every 6 months. So I I think just coincidentally,

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we actually did line it up perfectly.

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And you did mention

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that 1031 My Venture Fund is a small investor in FEDI,

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which is a for profit

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business that is built on top of the Fedimint protocol, which is another ecash protocol.

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There's 2 dominant ecash protocols on Bitcoin. By the way, I looked up the last episode. I called it Bitcoin Charming,

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Bitcoin wait. What did I call it? I called it Bitcoin powered Charmian eCash with Cali. So,

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the

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and so so FETI is built on this Fediment open source protocol,

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and then you have the Cashew protocol that has many wallets that are built on top of it.

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And

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just seeing the organic growth in Cashew

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versus Fedimint has been something to watch. I mean, we've seen

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a it's it's

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it's it's something that is very rare. Right? I I think

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both of us have been in this space and the adjacent spaces for for a long time now. And it's not something that you can, like, create out of thin air or try and replicate through like force. It's something that kinda just happens

255
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virally and organically when like an idea has its time and it's been fascinating to watch.

256
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Yeah. I wanna riff on all all those topics that you just mentioned. I think they're super important. Like, we should get back to open sets and developers and how to get them as well. But I wanna mention at this point, like,

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obviously, I always wanted

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to to get to a point where this with with Casio, we're trying to build the simplest e cash system possible. Like, we're trying to

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start with the minimum basics, what you need in order to have an e cash protocol

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in the first place, and then trying to make that more and more complex and building more features on top of that that are optional that people can use if they need it. But this approach,

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basically, was well intentioned,

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Like, there was always this this model that I've observed from, especially lnurl, and we had this lnurl mafia back in the days where we had this whole group of people just implementing this

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very stupid simple fiat Jeff invented lnurls, so it's HTTP based, super simple

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way of receiving lightning payments.

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And I saw how it spread. And it was so beautiful to watch because it just spread like wildfire. And at the same time, you know,

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you have other protocols that do similar things, but they are pushed from by different entities. Sometimes it's a company. Sometimes it's like

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a set of OGs that are very,

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you know, very pushy about the tech. Whereas you have this punk, stupid,

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simple technology like lnurl

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that is unstoppable,

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which eventually forced everyone to adopt lnurl. Right? And nowadays, we have these battles between bolt 12 versus lnurl. And I think I mean, I love bolt 12.

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But you see that you have this now new technology, both 12, that is trying to shave off some of the success from lnurl.

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And,

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it's trying too hard. And I think it's like opening up,

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like, antagonisms

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where they're

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not really needed.

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So in my in my view, technology spreads,

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in a way very unpredictably.

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But what seems to be often the case is that if

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the tech can speak for itself and those who,

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defend it and represent it,

283
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don't try too hard and remain, like, fact based and just

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show you how easy it is to use it, show you how easy it is to build it. That's what makes people, the relevant people to actually consider it and think about the tech. Right? At the end of the day, also, I mean, I I love having a discuss the the discussion with you and conversation with you, but also the one of the reasons why I go to podcast and talk about Cashew is I want to inflict,

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like fantasies

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in heads of people, in the brains of people

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who are working with tech.

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And I think, like, by talking about what what we already do today,

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it will just change your way of looking at your tech stack and what you work on. And maybe you'll find,

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it's not one or two reasons why you might wanna look into it. And that's the best way that tech can spread. It's just

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purely your own reason, your own benefits, and, you discover it and then you,

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employ it.

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And I think, yeah, that's that's how we've been spreading. So we have no propaganda,

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ministry. We have no funding for media. We have no, like, marketing department.

295
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We just ship posts and we built. And it's been working better than anything else that you can do.

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So,

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I'm very happy about that. But I also wanna go back get back to,

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like, this. Thank you for the compliments. First of all, I need to say thank you for that and also partially re reject them because I don't wanna, you know, be idealized in that sense. Like, I'm just a normal fucking plab, and I'm just building. And I'm here to stay,

299
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super convicted.

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I think Bitcoin is one of the most interesting and most important things to work on, on a human

301
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life choices level. I'm, like, all in with Bitcoin.

302
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And,

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I know, like, if I choose something,

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I'm I'm a person that just stays around and rides or dies.

305
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But

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I

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think about attracting,

308
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like, these,

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capable deaths that

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each individual, we have insane

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potential

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to change Bitcoin, to improve Bitcoin. I think about

313
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how to attract them all the time. It's one of the things that is constantly on my mind is how can we

314
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build a,

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let's say, environment

316
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and culture

317
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in Bitcoin, and how can we reach those people,

318
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that might have this incredible

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impact on how Bitcoin works today. And,

320
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you know, it's a complicated topic because Bitcoin itself is a very echo chamber y closed minded,

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community sometimes,

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which I know that some people lark about. This is,

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defense immune system for Bitcoin and so on. I think that's kind of mostly anti social behavior. The cyber hornets.

324
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Yeah. Yeah. I think

325
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grown grown men

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often explaining to themselves why they can be

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mean and bullying people and so, like, I I I think it's, it doesn't really help anyone. But, yeah, that that's my small diss there, so I hope no one feels offended. But,

328
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so I think of people

329
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now I wanna I wanna mention 2 people that are not, like, super consensus that we,

330
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that, you know, not everyone's in consensus that they're amazing

331
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engineers. But,

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I wanna mention

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Robin Linus, the guy who invented BitVM,

334
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and,

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Casey Rotimore,

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the guy who invented,

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ordinals.

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And, you know, think what you will about these two inventions, and especially the ordinal stuff is

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very you know, many people are pretty good about it. I fucking, you know, don't care about NFTs. Like,

340
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it's very unimportant to me personally.

341
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But what I see

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is these 2

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very special people,

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for some reason, they have taken a different approach,

345
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and some of their approaches even shitcoiny.

346
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Like, NFT stuff is very shitcoiny.

347
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And,

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Robin Linus himself, he learned all his zk magic stuff in shitcoin land. Like, he came from the developer

349
00:26:33.040 --> 00:26:36.340
ecosystem from Ethereum world, like, where you have z zk

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proofs.

351
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And,

352
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and both of them with Bitcoin and,

353
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I think 0 sync is the other project by Robin and then obviously the whole ordinal spiel.

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Both of these projects had had an insane impact on Bitcoin whether you like it or not. Those are immense, like, in in the history books of Bitcoin, we will mention those two names.

355
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And

356
00:27:01.830 --> 00:27:06.650
so that's a very long way of saying, like, how do we attract those people? I really believe that individuals,

357
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some are so

358
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capable

359
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that just 1 or 2 of them can change the course of Bitcoin.

360
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So the biggest question, the most important question in my mind as someone who's always dealing with developers just whose life is being a developer,

361
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I wonder how do we attract those people. And I really don't know. Like, sometimes I have the urge to go to fucking,

362
00:27:34.144 --> 00:27:38.725
I don't know, mastodon or blue sky or just break out of the echo chamber

363
00:27:39.264 --> 00:27:41.845
to talk to people that are out there

364
00:27:42.465 --> 00:27:44.085
but who can't be reached

365
00:27:44.465 --> 00:27:46.085
from within our echo chamber.

366
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So, yeah, I wonder how to do that, and I wanna expand the circus circle of Bitcoin. I want to

367
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reach more people

368
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and then,

369
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yeah, and and then and attract those people

370
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into our cult.

371
00:28:03.455 --> 00:28:05.794
Yeah. I mean, that's always the question. Right?

372
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I mean, I we hear it a lot in terms of

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my,

374
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my noster stance.

375
00:28:16.789 --> 00:28:19.450
It's a common refrain that I hear is is

376
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is, oh, well, if you're if you're only using noster, like, you're missing a bunch of people.

377
00:28:24.630 --> 00:28:29.049
And usually it's it's used in terms of that's why someone should post to x.

378
00:28:29.750 --> 00:28:32.330
Right? But I there is probably an argument.

379
00:28:33.475 --> 00:28:35.695
There's probably a valid argument that,

380
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that there's there's more

381
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greenfield

382
00:28:43.235 --> 00:28:45.335
people that have never been exposed to

383
00:28:46.130 --> 00:28:49.190
Bitcoin and associated Freedom Tech on like a TikTok

384
00:28:49.809 --> 00:28:54.309
or which has way more users than x or maybe even a blue sky, which is

385
00:28:54.850 --> 00:28:57.830
kind of a weird little echo chamber they're building over there.

386
00:28:58.370 --> 00:29:00.470
That couldn't be any more different than Nostr.

387
00:29:01.565 --> 00:29:04.145
But also, like, I kind of come to the conclusion that

388
00:29:05.965 --> 00:29:11.645
I don't know, Cali. Like, I feel like like how did you how did you discover Bitcoin? Like, I feel like the

389
00:29:12.810 --> 00:29:18.830
I hate the term because it just sounds like I'm wearing my VC hat, but, like, the 10 x engineers, like, the people that really,

390
00:29:21.210 --> 00:29:27.435
move the needle in a big way, the rider dies, they tend to kind of do the proof of work and find it.

391
00:29:28.475 --> 00:29:29.615
Like I found Bitcoin

392
00:29:31.595 --> 00:29:36.975
in in a environment that, you know, no one was talking about on x. You know, I I just

393
00:29:37.435 --> 00:29:44.630
I've I've I've found it. I was looking I was looking for hope and I found something that provided that hope and then I just never stopped.

394
00:29:45.730 --> 00:29:49.430
Yeah. For me so the the reason I joined X was

395
00:29:49.970 --> 00:29:56.595
for Bitcoin. I I don't like social media that much, by itself. So I kind of entered the Bitcoin,

396
00:29:57.375 --> 00:29:59.794
or let's say the the public square

397
00:30:00.255 --> 00:30:06.034
wearing my Bitcoin hat. And to this day, I limit myself purely to Bitcoin content because,

398
00:30:07.054 --> 00:30:11.240
there's too much bullshit going on around that. Like, I wanna I wanna focus.

399
00:30:11.540 --> 00:30:14.100
The way I found Bitcoin, I don't talk about this,

400
00:30:14.580 --> 00:30:15.700
often, but it's,

401
00:30:16.260 --> 00:30:19.240
I I think, a good story, actually, because,

402
00:30:19.780 --> 00:30:22.695
like, I've been developing for all my life. I've had, like,

403
00:30:23.255 --> 00:30:26.794
various professional experience, done all sorts of crazy

404
00:30:27.095 --> 00:30:29.034
hardships and achieve, like,

405
00:30:29.495 --> 00:30:30.875
things in different domains.

406
00:30:31.735 --> 00:30:32.235
But,

407
00:30:33.174 --> 00:30:35.115
I was building privacy software,

408
00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:40.640
and it wasn't Bitcoin related. And I can I can actually, this is an interesting,

409
00:30:41.020 --> 00:30:44.320
example? I was building a port scanner. Port scanner is a standard,

410
00:30:44.860 --> 00:30:45.840
you know, cybersecurity

411
00:30:46.220 --> 00:30:47.760
tool that checks whether

412
00:30:48.460 --> 00:30:55.235
ports on a different computer are open or not. It's very, very basic. And, I was looking for one that does it for,

413
00:30:55.535 --> 00:31:01.715
Tor for Tor services, hidden services, where you can just enter a Tor on the address and it checks for the ports.

414
00:31:02.175 --> 00:31:03.475
And this didn't exist,

415
00:31:04.040 --> 00:31:08.919
so I I just built it. And when I put it up, I noticed that it uses kind of,

416
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:21.735
you know, resources, cost money to host this thing, and didn't have much money. So I wanted to put a donation button there. And, well, obviously, I had to use Bitcoin because, what else could you,

417
00:31:22.195 --> 00:31:24.695
use, like, anonymous service with?

418
00:31:25.315 --> 00:31:35.659
And because of that fucking payment button, I fell into the developer rabbit hole. Now as I fell deeper and deeper, I just, like, dismissed completely the actual project that I was working on

419
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:41.340
and and had to fix that payment button. And, that's how I became a lightning developer at the end of the day.

420
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:48.935
Just following that that rabbit hole for months years and becoming an expert. As I was falling into that hole, though,

421
00:31:49.555 --> 00:32:08.360
and I think that's important for me personally, and it ties back to what I said before. I noticed that the rabbit hole is way deeper than I thought. Or not on a, you know, just thinking about Bitcoin and Bitcoin on a social economic level and all that stuff is also interesting, but it's not something that would have kept me inside the rabbit hole. Like, I would have just gone,

422
00:32:08.980 --> 00:32:22.304
you know, gone to the next thing. But, what I noticed in Bitcoin is that the technical rabbit hole is super deep, and we have amazing people in Bitcoin that are true theoreticians, like hardcore cyber bugs

423
00:32:22.605 --> 00:32:23.105
doing,

424
00:32:23.485 --> 00:32:29.904
a lot of work. And you'll suddenly sit in a room with people who talk about this tech and you you get you understand nothing.

425
00:32:30.365 --> 00:32:35.970
And you notice that there's so much to learn about this if you wanna really learn.

426
00:32:36.350 --> 00:32:42.770
And so for for curious person, this is often like a trigger to okay. Then let's let's dive in and figure it out.

427
00:32:43.950 --> 00:32:44.850
And nowadays,

428
00:32:45.335 --> 00:32:47.515
you know, I'm trying to I'm trying to

429
00:32:47.975 --> 00:32:48.875
help others

430
00:32:49.495 --> 00:32:51.275
also follow the white rabbit

431
00:32:51.895 --> 00:32:54.235
and, you know, wake up, Neil.

432
00:32:54.535 --> 00:33:00.240
There is so much you can do with your life that isn't this corporate normal

433
00:33:00.700 --> 00:33:02.000
developer life that

434
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:05.360
most people, most of my friends who work in development

435
00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:09.040
actually hate what they're doing. And this is like a standard

436
00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:10.160
default

437
00:33:10.620 --> 00:33:14.240
way of living. We have all accepted this. This is, say,

438
00:33:14.545 --> 00:33:16.725
a result of modern society, I guess.

439
00:33:17.025 --> 00:33:27.125
But especially for developers who look at open source and they're many of them say is like, oh, yeah. And, you know, one day I'll take some time and do what's good

440
00:33:27.470 --> 00:33:28.770
instead of what's necessary

441
00:33:30.270 --> 00:33:38.130
and go, you know, become a open source developer and contribute to something that feels like a larger project than my own little fuck fucking project.

442
00:33:39.230 --> 00:33:41.970
And, yeah, I'm trying I'm trying to help people

443
00:33:42.565 --> 00:33:45.225
to to make the move. And Bitcoin is

444
00:33:45.605 --> 00:33:54.025
the 1st open source project, a humanity project, a project on the level of, you know, what humanity has,

445
00:33:54.970 --> 00:33:59.710
you know, the one of the most best and most important thing that humanity has created so far.

446
00:34:00.090 --> 00:34:04.190
And, it's the first thing that also allows you as a developer to

447
00:34:04.649 --> 00:34:05.149
actually

448
00:34:05.529 --> 00:34:06.830
survive on it because

449
00:34:07.245 --> 00:34:11.025
Bitcoin has this ability to finance itself from the inside.

450
00:34:11.325 --> 00:34:11.985
It doesn't

451
00:34:12.525 --> 00:34:13.025
rely

452
00:34:13.885 --> 00:34:14.385
on

453
00:34:14.685 --> 00:34:16.785
support from external institutions

454
00:34:17.085 --> 00:34:18.385
or external entities.

455
00:34:19.005 --> 00:34:27.540
We have, thankfully, we have OGs who have bought Bitcoin very, very early. And at the end of the day, that's what what's coming back

456
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:30.260
to developers these days. And,

457
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:34.640
I mean, we we are living in a much, much better situation than,

458
00:34:36.144 --> 00:34:46.244
when I started developing. There was no open sets. Like, there was Brink and they were, like, sponsoring 5 people, and all core devs I knew were complaining about

459
00:34:46.545 --> 00:34:51.420
having to work 2 jobs so they can do core development at night.

460
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:52.400
And

461
00:34:52.700 --> 00:34:55.119
now and thankfully, that is changing.

462
00:34:55.420 --> 00:34:55.920
And

463
00:34:56.700 --> 00:35:00.160
most of the work there has been done by OpenSets

464
00:35:00.700 --> 00:35:01.760
and the HRF

465
00:35:02.700 --> 00:35:04.000
and bring Inspiro.

466
00:35:06.025 --> 00:35:09.785
And this is so exceptional. This is so amazing that we have this environment.

467
00:35:11.225 --> 00:35:11.805
I think,

468
00:35:12.345 --> 00:35:15.405
you know, now we need to attract the people. We need to grow.

469
00:35:15.705 --> 00:35:18.285
We need to 10 x the number of 10 x deaths.

470
00:35:18.585 --> 00:35:19.485
Damn right.

471
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.300
I could just let you speak for the whole episode.

472
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:25.940
Fuck, man. Sorry. I was like, you

473
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:31.520
know, I wanna look there. You're an inspiration, sir. Yep. No. You're good. Keep going. I,

474
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.140
and on top of that, I mean, one thing that I was

475
00:35:37.385 --> 00:35:40.765
that I that I was quite excited about is is just the other day,

476
00:35:42.505 --> 00:35:43.565
we had UTXO

477
00:35:43.945 --> 00:35:50.525
who's doing a lot of work on on Noster in terms of trying to create smarter relays and giving people more

478
00:35:51.090 --> 00:35:53.910
options in terms of how they interact with the Noster network.

479
00:35:54.210 --> 00:35:57.030
He's like straight up just asked for a call for donations

480
00:35:57.410 --> 00:35:59.910
on Noster and he was able to get funded

481
00:36:01.250 --> 00:36:02.710
in a significant way,

482
00:36:03.730 --> 00:36:05.350
like over a 1000000 sets,

483
00:36:06.085 --> 00:36:08.265
which right now is

484
00:36:09.925 --> 00:36:10.425
9.20

485
00:36:10.725 --> 00:36:11.465
US dollars.

486
00:36:12.885 --> 00:36:15.385
I think it was like over $1500

487
00:36:15.925 --> 00:36:18.185
worth of Sats just like flooded into

488
00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:20.110
his lightning wallet,

489
00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:26.930
just asking for a call for donations, which to me is the ultimate dream. Like, I think, like, organizations like Open Sats and HRF

490
00:36:27.390 --> 00:36:28.770
play an important role,

491
00:36:29.790 --> 00:36:31.090
especially right now.

492
00:36:31.595 --> 00:36:34.414
But I I mean, we try our best to

493
00:36:34.954 --> 00:36:35.454
operate

494
00:36:35.835 --> 00:36:39.914
more ethically, more efficiently, more transparently than any other charity in the world.

495
00:36:40.234 --> 00:36:45.454
But ultimately, we are a middleman. Right? And when you have Freedom Money, the ability to support devs directly,

496
00:36:46.080 --> 00:36:50.740
particularly in a social environment, I think the social signal is is key there. I mean,

497
00:36:51.040 --> 00:36:55.860
you you could clearly watch as the zaps were coming in that people were trying to top the previous people,

498
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:58.900
that donated. Everyone wanted to be the top dog.

499
00:36:59.984 --> 00:37:02.244
I I think that's a really bullish fundamental,

500
00:37:02.545 --> 00:37:06.244
and it should be interesting to watch that play out. And I mean, to your previous,

501
00:37:07.585 --> 00:37:11.204
topic points you mentioned up there, like, that was possible because of

502
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:13.360
open protocols like lnurl

503
00:37:13.980 --> 00:37:14.720
and noster

504
00:37:15.020 --> 00:37:20.800
that were not, that were very organic and viral in how they were adopted and when put together,

505
00:37:21.820 --> 00:37:23.520
they become incredibly powerful.

506
00:37:24.355 --> 00:37:27.735
I wanna bring it back. We have a lot of things to talk about.

507
00:37:28.355 --> 00:37:31.975
I if if you're not familiar of the Cashew project,

508
00:37:33.075 --> 00:37:38.910
definitely go back to that March episode we did together because we went through like all 101 and,

509
00:37:40.190 --> 00:37:44.369
stuff like that. And and I think me and Kelly are gonna go a little bit deeper on this conversation,

510
00:37:45.230 --> 00:37:46.849
because particularly in bull markets,

511
00:37:47.150 --> 00:37:47.890
I crave,

512
00:37:49.470 --> 00:37:50.690
the more deep conversations

513
00:37:51.230 --> 00:37:55.325
instead of the superficial bullshit that gets you repost on x.

514
00:37:57.145 --> 00:38:00.845
You mentioned lnurl. You know, lnurl is one of those things that

515
00:38:01.224 --> 00:38:04.125
is super simple and is relatively easy to implement.

516
00:38:05.145 --> 00:38:06.845
But I do have some concerns

517
00:38:09.359 --> 00:38:12.339
going forward that it will be used as kind of like

518
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:14.579
a compliance

519
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:15.619
nightmare

520
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:16.500
tool.

521
00:38:17.680 --> 00:38:22.740
I don't know if you've thought about it at all but, you know, LightSpark which is funded by a 16z.

522
00:38:23.585 --> 00:38:26.565
Yeah. One of the big bad venture firms from

523
00:38:27.265 --> 00:38:31.125
tech surveillance dystopia that, 10 30 1 is trying to obsolete.

524
00:38:31.744 --> 00:38:32.885
Gave them a $165,000,000

525
00:38:34.065 --> 00:38:35.670
and they went and they launched,

526
00:38:36.069 --> 00:38:40.650
the universal money address which is effectively lnurl with compliance built in.

527
00:38:40.950 --> 00:38:42.170
Particularly because lnurl

528
00:38:42.549 --> 00:38:43.609
is so simple

529
00:38:45.190 --> 00:38:45.849
to implement,

530
00:38:46.470 --> 00:38:57.085
and is effectively just a data exchange layer on top of lightning invoices. And it's also backwards compatible. Right? So this UMA stuff that works just with any lightning address as well.

531
00:38:57.545 --> 00:39:01.680
Yeah. For now, I think what's gonna happen is I think they're gonna be like

532
00:39:02.240 --> 00:39:10.980
you you can choose to add the compliance layer or not. And then at some point, you know, they're like doing partnerships with all these big companies. At some point, they're gonna be like,

533
00:39:11.680 --> 00:39:18.955
if you're paying a l n URL recipient that isn't quote, unquote compliant and isn't sharing KYC information,

534
00:39:20.535 --> 00:39:24.075
then we're not gonna support it. And then that point, if they have enough adoption,

535
00:39:25.335 --> 00:39:26.555
then it kinda pushes

536
00:39:27.175 --> 00:39:35.840
wallets that don't wanna support it into supporting it just so that, you know, users don't have this weird interface where, like, their payments are failing and they don't know why they're failing?

537
00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:49.715
I I think this is, like, always the same thing. It will happen, and they can have fun with their compliance flags there and send around user data. It's just like there will be always a core of people and services that will not participate in that bullshit.

538
00:39:50.175 --> 00:39:50.675
And,

539
00:39:51.215 --> 00:39:52.675
I mean, I think

540
00:39:53.855 --> 00:39:57.955
similarly to what we started talking about. Right? You have now this massive company

541
00:39:58.550 --> 00:40:00.570
that's came out of nowhere, has

542
00:40:01.510 --> 00:40:10.570
no real you know, they have some awesome people working for them, but the company itself just popped out of nowhere, got a bunch of money, has this Facebook guy

543
00:40:11.025 --> 00:40:12.405
as, their front,

544
00:40:12.865 --> 00:40:15.525
and, you know, this this perfect looking suit,

545
00:40:16.145 --> 00:40:18.244
that looks like a clone of himself.

546
00:40:19.265 --> 00:40:20.325
And he's raising

547
00:40:20.785 --> 00:40:23.125
1,000,000 of 1,000,000 of, dollars

548
00:40:23.700 --> 00:40:28.040
and, integrating lightning into large service providers these day. I mean, their their

549
00:40:28.420 --> 00:40:29.720
their success is

550
00:40:30.660 --> 00:40:40.345
is is impressive in that sense that there were similar companies around before that offered the same thing, but couldn't achieve, nearly what they have achieved in terms of,

551
00:40:40.965 --> 00:40:42.665
who uses their their integration.

552
00:40:43.445 --> 00:40:49.705
But for the l n URL thing, when they add, like, a layer of compliance into those payments, I think

553
00:40:50.109 --> 00:40:52.369
this is the path that everything will

554
00:40:52.670 --> 00:40:55.010
walk towards go towards on the Internet.

555
00:40:55.630 --> 00:40:56.130
And,

556
00:40:57.390 --> 00:41:04.210
I don't think that we need to fight against it because you cannot fight against it. There will always be the compliance the compliant

557
00:41:05.234 --> 00:41:05.734
network

558
00:41:06.035 --> 00:41:08.934
that will have to adhere to absurd rules,

559
00:41:09.875 --> 00:41:10.375
that,

560
00:41:10.994 --> 00:41:12.615
for example, send your private

561
00:41:13.075 --> 00:41:17.075
information from one server to another because of the travel rule. But,

562
00:41:18.210 --> 00:41:31.349
the Internet itself will just continue existing the same way it does right now. There will always be people who say, no. I I don't I just I don't wanna play your games. I wanna play our own games. I wanna make up our own protocols

563
00:41:31.730 --> 00:41:33.315
and just, you know,

564
00:41:33.935 --> 00:41:39.715
deny interaction with those services. I don't think that they have much of a pressure onto the ecosystem.

565
00:41:40.175 --> 00:41:42.995
You'll see some wallets adopt their thing because

566
00:41:43.695 --> 00:41:48.880
often some wallets don't care about any, you know, ideas of freedom or decentralization.

567
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:57.435
They just they just wanna have the maximum amount amount of users and that's fine as well. Just, you know, I would avoid them because, you know,

568
00:41:58.955 --> 00:42:00.335
many people would avoid them.

569
00:42:00.635 --> 00:42:05.375
But there will always be an, large enough number of people services

570
00:42:05.835 --> 00:42:08.255
on its, infrastructure that says,

571
00:42:08.555 --> 00:42:09.055
no.

572
00:42:09.530 --> 00:42:17.869
We're going to use the OGLN URL or even better, we're going to use both 12 with blinded paths, and we're going to increase the privacy of lightning

573
00:42:18.329 --> 00:42:20.750
even if that means it cannot interact with your,

574
00:42:21.690 --> 00:42:22.190
compliant,

575
00:42:22.914 --> 00:42:33.255
subsystem anymore. I think these people can fork off if they want, and, that's completely fine. I think we have we have space and room for all of it.

576
00:42:33.795 --> 00:42:37.575
We interrupt this broadcast for a brief message from our sponsor, LightSpark,

577
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:40.860
bringing the future of lightning payments to a bank near you.

578
00:42:42.200 --> 00:42:42.700
I,

579
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:45.400
they,

580
00:42:46.200 --> 00:42:47.900
just for some context here,

581
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:49.640
they,

582
00:42:51.225 --> 00:42:53.245
1031 is by far the largest

583
00:42:54.585 --> 00:42:56.685
Bitcoin focused venture firm,

584
00:42:56.985 --> 00:42:58.525
and we've deployed a $130,000,000.

585
00:42:59.945 --> 00:43:03.005
So a 16 z that that's across 36,

586
00:43:03.705 --> 00:43:04.205
businesses.

587
00:43:04.985 --> 00:43:06.125
A 16 z

588
00:43:06.520 --> 00:43:07.900
gave them a 165,000,000

589
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:09.820
just to this single company.

590
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:13.980
Just to kinda show you, you know, money doesn't

591
00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:15.420
necessarily

592
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.340
equate to success. Like, you still need to execute.

593
00:43:19.704 --> 00:43:22.765
But just to show, like, the still the the massive capital,

594
00:43:23.944 --> 00:43:24.444
differences,

595
00:43:25.065 --> 00:43:25.565
between

596
00:43:25.865 --> 00:43:29.005
kind of the old world's, like, tech surveillance mindset

597
00:43:29.545 --> 00:43:32.605
and, like, the new world ideological Bitcoin mindset,

598
00:43:33.690 --> 00:43:36.030
there's still a massive, massive gap,

599
00:43:37.609 --> 00:43:40.830
in that. And, and what I've seen is that they have been,

600
00:43:41.609 --> 00:43:42.430
I'm hearing

601
00:43:42.890 --> 00:43:45.310
that they, they pay people for integrations.

602
00:43:46.095 --> 00:43:49.795
So they have all they have this war chest and they're they're paying people for integrations.

603
00:43:50.255 --> 00:43:52.035
They got the Coinbase contract.

604
00:43:52.335 --> 00:43:56.115
I don't know the details of the Coinbase contract, but for instance, they are doing Coinbase.

605
00:43:57.535 --> 00:43:59.075
So they could be in a situation

606
00:43:59.455 --> 00:44:01.820
where I hope it's not a told you so,

607
00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:03.740
but some things I say

608
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:08.460
on the show are are to to be told you so told you so's.

609
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:09.500
Yeah.

610
00:44:10.120 --> 00:44:11.180
There there is,

611
00:44:13.295 --> 00:44:17.635
you know, the way I look at Bitcoin right now the way I look at Bitcoin right now is I think it's

612
00:44:18.495 --> 00:44:20.435
close to inevitable if not inevitable

613
00:44:21.375 --> 00:44:24.035
that, you know, Bitcoin gets adopted at scale.

614
00:44:24.655 --> 00:44:29.470
And I would even go as far as saying, you know, it becomes this reserve currency of the world.

615
00:44:30.329 --> 00:44:35.710
But what my biggest concern is is what percentage of people are then using it as Freedom Money.

616
00:44:36.089 --> 00:44:36.990
And I think

617
00:44:37.690 --> 00:44:38.990
like our current trajectory

618
00:44:39.450 --> 00:44:40.750
is maybe 5%

619
00:44:41.435 --> 00:44:43.615
are using it as Freedom Money and then 95%

620
00:44:43.915 --> 00:44:45.855
of people are using it in this like

621
00:44:46.475 --> 00:44:47.535
surveilled controlled

622
00:44:48.315 --> 00:44:53.135
way. And like at least they can't get debased in that situation or they can't get debased easily.

623
00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:58.700
But that's not really the movement I signed up for. So, like, my goal is to try and

624
00:45:00.359 --> 00:45:05.900
increase that percentage. Like, what is that percentage in 20 years that is using this thing as freedom money?

625
00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:08.220
And I'm kinda curious, like,

626
00:45:08.694 --> 00:45:11.355
I mean based on your answer, your answer

627
00:45:12.295 --> 00:45:18.635
does not necessarily conflict with my diagnosis there of 5% ride or dies using it as freedom money.

628
00:45:19.015 --> 00:45:19.994
Like do you

629
00:45:20.375 --> 00:45:28.680
think we're we're is our trajectory better than that? Am I being too pessimistic? Or I I think you're being too optimistic in my opinion.

630
00:45:29.460 --> 00:45:35.080
I think the number is less than 5% for sure. But that's that's fine. I think that's you know,

631
00:45:35.975 --> 00:45:36.795
not everyone

632
00:45:37.175 --> 00:45:43.435
lives in situations that are so bad that they need to save themselves, and that's good. Right?

633
00:45:43.735 --> 00:45:49.035
The world isn't as bleak as some people make it look like. Obviously, we have we have big problems,

634
00:45:49.415 --> 00:45:49.495
and,

635
00:45:50.490 --> 00:45:59.790
most people who own Bitcoin today might learn the true value of Bitcoin only in in the worst case. And we can just hope that that worst case never,

636
00:46:00.410 --> 00:46:00.910
happens,

637
00:46:01.210 --> 00:46:01.710
although

638
00:46:02.170 --> 00:46:05.870
the chances are there. And as you said, like, the things that you say on this podcast,

639
00:46:06.915 --> 00:46:10.035
seem to turn out to be true at the end of the day. So,

640
00:46:11.075 --> 00:46:11.975
I think the

641
00:46:12.275 --> 00:46:16.615
the number of people who use Bitcoin for the, for its freedom properties

642
00:46:16.995 --> 00:46:19.095
is is way less than 5%.

643
00:46:19.395 --> 00:46:19.875
And,

644
00:46:21.155 --> 00:46:21.655
somehow,

645
00:46:22.569 --> 00:46:25.710
I think it's part of the equation of Bitcoin itself because

646
00:46:26.089 --> 00:46:27.630
it must be valuable

647
00:46:27.930 --> 00:46:31.069
to also the left bell curve left,

648
00:46:31.530 --> 00:46:32.430
curve people.

649
00:46:32.809 --> 00:46:39.934
They just wanna increase their fiat stack, and, you know, that's the that's the reason why most people buy Bitcoin these days is to increase,

650
00:46:41.035 --> 00:46:51.535
some value that they compute in fiat, and they see the price go up, and they like Bitcoin more than yesterday. And that makes a lot of sense, and everyone's

651
00:46:51.890 --> 00:46:58.070
should and is free to to to do so. But those people who really need Bitcoin because they cannot get a bank account

652
00:46:58.450 --> 00:46:59.190
or they,

653
00:47:00.370 --> 00:47:02.310
I don't know. They they want to,

654
00:47:02.850 --> 00:47:05.030
move countries because their authoritarian

655
00:47:05.410 --> 00:47:07.025
regime is becoming unbearable,

656
00:47:07.325 --> 00:47:11.005
and they need to take their property with them. Or just people who want to ex,

657
00:47:11.805 --> 00:47:14.305
engage in free and open trades between

658
00:47:14.605 --> 00:47:17.505
ordinary human beings on the Internet, for example.

659
00:47:17.964 --> 00:47:19.105
They need Bitcoin.

660
00:47:19.484 --> 00:47:21.424
This is like, I would consider myself,

661
00:47:22.230 --> 00:47:27.610
often of the latter category. For example, if you just you just wanna buy a server on the Internet,

662
00:47:28.070 --> 00:47:29.370
for a couple days,

663
00:47:29.910 --> 00:47:39.765
there is no other solution than to use Bitcoin if you want to remain private. Obviously, you could use privacy shitcoins and so on. But I'm just, you know, as a general,

664
00:47:40.545 --> 00:47:44.964
as a general statement there is that we need to use Internet money for Internet things.

665
00:47:45.424 --> 00:47:46.805
And, that number

666
00:47:47.105 --> 00:47:52.050
that number I think of people who who need that last part will will go up as

667
00:47:52.430 --> 00:47:59.730
more and more services and things that we do will be bought online and purchased online. And that number hopefully will go up.

668
00:48:00.910 --> 00:48:08.305
But I think those who really need Bitcoin because of its freedom properties in terms of human rights and censorship resistant, that that is,

669
00:48:08.925 --> 00:48:09.905
a smaller number,

670
00:48:10.365 --> 00:48:12.625
than than what you think it is, I think.

671
00:48:13.405 --> 00:48:14.225
Yeah. I mean,

672
00:48:14.790 --> 00:48:20.730
I think the only like, we can theorize all we want, but, like, the only plan forward is to just,

673
00:48:22.470 --> 00:48:27.370
you know, build out the tools, make the tools easier, build out the education, make the education easier.

674
00:48:27.945 --> 00:48:29.705
And then as people find a need,

675
00:48:30.025 --> 00:48:35.485
they will have that option available to them and that's really all we can ask for and then going forward we'll see

676
00:48:36.185 --> 00:48:42.630
what that actually plays out as. But there's still I think I think my key premise here is that there's still a lot of work left to be done,

677
00:48:43.109 --> 00:48:44.650
and that's why I'm still here.

678
00:48:45.190 --> 00:48:56.809
There's so much work to be done. I mean, all this is, useless if people don't hold their own keys, for example. Right? We all agree on that. And this is some some very simple and basic messages need to be

679
00:48:57.385 --> 00:49:00.205
communicated to to the larger population

680
00:49:00.825 --> 00:49:12.045
that people who think who own Bitcoin don't own Bitcoin if you don't hold the keys because at the end of the day, that's just an investment like your stock portfolio or something like that that could be taken away from you.

681
00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:13.220
Yeah. I mean

682
00:49:13.700 --> 00:49:17.240
and I think that is mostly learned through pain, which is unfortunate,

683
00:49:17.780 --> 00:49:21.000
and we're gonna probably see, like, the next kind of

684
00:49:21.780 --> 00:49:27.079
version of that with the ETFs and with a lesser extent stocks like, MicroStrategy.

685
00:49:28.355 --> 00:49:29.974
Real quick, we have,

686
00:49:30.595 --> 00:49:32.454
the top 3 zappers in,

687
00:49:33.635 --> 00:49:35.494
the live chat, which you can get at syllabuspatch.com/stream

688
00:49:37.155 --> 00:49:45.570
is SPA zapped to 21,000 sats, Mav 21 zapped 10000 sats, and Pamplemousse zapped 5,000 sats. Thank you for supporting the show.

689
00:49:45.870 --> 00:49:46.770
We have UTXO,

690
00:49:47.230 --> 00:49:48.930
who we were talking about earlier,

691
00:49:50.590 --> 00:49:51.570
prolific Nostredev,

692
00:49:52.670 --> 00:49:55.330
who's also been dabbling in a big way in lightning.

693
00:49:56.145 --> 00:50:06.085
He says that we're too pessimistic. 50 ish 50 percent ish of Bitcoin on chain is held by unknown individuals. That's freedom. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.

694
00:50:06.465 --> 00:50:06.965
Not

695
00:50:07.425 --> 00:50:09.845
I I I think it's it's absolutely key

696
00:50:10.785 --> 00:50:11.285
that

697
00:50:11.790 --> 00:50:13.970
Bitcoin was kind of bootstrapped in this,

698
00:50:16.190 --> 00:50:18.910
environment where most people weren't paying attention to it.

699
00:50:19.550 --> 00:50:21.890
So we do have a a

700
00:50:22.270 --> 00:50:24.770
a strong foundation of sovereign individuals,

701
00:50:25.734 --> 00:50:27.435
of freedom loving folks.

702
00:50:28.135 --> 00:50:28.635
But,

703
00:50:30.455 --> 00:50:36.155
you know, I'm I think me and Cali are more talking about, you know, number of people, like actual,

704
00:50:36.455 --> 00:50:39.035
like, percentage of of global population,

705
00:50:39.720 --> 00:50:43.500
not necessarily the amount of Bitcoin. So it's kind of 2 different metrics,

706
00:50:44.680 --> 00:50:46.140
and just something to watch.

707
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:48.119
Cali, I have,

708
00:50:48.680 --> 00:50:58.875
and also UTXO. Like, I hope you're right. Like, that'd be fucking great. By the way, shout out to to the writer, Dies, in the chat. Like, I'm reading what you're writing and you're fucking amazing that you're here. And,

709
00:50:59.255 --> 00:51:01.115
I'm seeing all those names

710
00:51:01.655 --> 00:51:06.555
which would I with whom I interact with Noster, and I'm happy to see you guys

711
00:51:06.935 --> 00:51:11.630
listening then. Yeah. This is a unique we got our our favorite blue check-in the house,

712
00:51:12.650 --> 00:51:16.270
and he's he's joining us in the Nostril live chat. We got Cali here.

713
00:51:17.450 --> 00:51:17.850
I,

714
00:51:18.890 --> 00:51:23.805
I I do wanna talk a little bit about Nostril stuff, but before we get there, so you actually

715
00:51:24.745 --> 00:51:27.885
because you have such a focus on privacy, you talk about,

716
00:51:29.145 --> 00:51:32.445
Monero a decent amount. I mean, I saw you posted a meme

717
00:51:34.420 --> 00:51:36.600
that I think was like the Ninja Turtles.

718
00:51:37.220 --> 00:51:39.240
Yeah. It's such a such a cute meme.

719
00:51:39.620 --> 00:51:39.700
And,

720
00:51:40.900 --> 00:51:48.815
and Monero was named in there. I I'm curious from your opinion, why do you focus this is a question that you get a lot, I assume,

721
00:51:49.115 --> 00:51:50.974
because I get it a lot as well.

722
00:51:52.315 --> 00:51:58.175
Why do you focus on Bitcoin and not something that is, you know, privacy specific like a Monero?

723
00:51:59.115 --> 00:51:59.935
Yeah. So

724
00:52:00.940 --> 00:52:06.320
disclaimer, I don't own Monero. I don't show Monero. Like, I barely think about Monero.

725
00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:07.280
But,

726
00:52:08.380 --> 00:52:14.000
from the shit coins out there, it's the shit coin that I respect the most because Monero has been consistent.

727
00:52:14.435 --> 00:52:15.255
And Monero,

728
00:52:16.835 --> 00:52:19.415
has never attracted their users with speculation,

729
00:52:20.195 --> 00:52:21.175
but with privacy

730
00:52:21.475 --> 00:52:26.295
only, and I respect that a lot. I know that many people today

731
00:52:26.595 --> 00:52:29.655
rely on Monero to do free trade on the Internet,

732
00:52:30.350 --> 00:52:36.050
And this is something that Bitcoin cannot give them today and does not give them today. So I I

733
00:52:36.350 --> 00:52:38.290
just from by being humble,

734
00:52:39.150 --> 00:52:40.050
I need to,

735
00:52:40.430 --> 00:52:41.010
you know,

736
00:52:41.390 --> 00:52:42.130
give proper,

737
00:52:42.750 --> 00:52:46.015
respect to to Monero and staying true to its ideals.

738
00:52:48.075 --> 00:52:58.575
But why do I focus only on Bitcoin? That is the question. Like, I I I don't even know how to answer that question. Everything else is complete bullshit. That's the answer to me. I I I don't know what to like,

739
00:52:59.030 --> 00:53:04.250
most projects out there, they're simply they're they're psy ops operations that make you,

740
00:53:04.550 --> 00:53:06.170
like, believe in them

741
00:53:06.470 --> 00:53:08.410
due to cheap propaganda,

742
00:53:09.270 --> 00:53:09.770
grassroots,

743
00:53:10.150 --> 00:53:12.010
faked, how do you say, astroturf

744
00:53:12.835 --> 00:53:13.975
astroturfed communities

745
00:53:14.355 --> 00:53:15.575
of non real people,

746
00:53:16.435 --> 00:53:16.935
posting

747
00:53:17.715 --> 00:53:19.815
degenerate memes about coins

748
00:53:20.115 --> 00:53:20.595
and,

749
00:53:21.315 --> 00:53:26.580
and marketing material. Like, this is literally what I perceive most projects in this space to be.

750
00:53:27.140 --> 00:53:29.240
I don't want anything to do with that.

751
00:53:29.860 --> 00:53:33.080
I focus on Bitcoin because Bitcoin was the first,

752
00:53:33.380 --> 00:53:34.840
and Bitcoin has

753
00:53:35.140 --> 00:53:35.800
the best,

754
00:53:37.380 --> 00:53:37.880
foundation

755
00:53:38.500 --> 00:53:43.395
in terms of the people that support it and the best foundation in terms of decentralization.

756
00:53:44.175 --> 00:53:49.474
In my mind, there is no competition. All the rest is completely irrelevant for me, and it's just background noise.

757
00:53:49.775 --> 00:53:57.170
I know that Bitcoin will still be there in 50 years, and I will be able to look back at my own life's

758
00:53:57.470 --> 00:53:57.970
legacy

759
00:53:58.270 --> 00:54:03.390
and say, I contributed to a project that actually matters. It's like,

760
00:54:04.510 --> 00:54:05.490
huge citadel

761
00:54:05.790 --> 00:54:07.089
of human

762
00:54:07.710 --> 00:54:08.210
achievement

763
00:54:08.990 --> 00:54:09.970
that we're

764
00:54:10.335 --> 00:54:11.075
building on.

765
00:54:11.455 --> 00:54:12.915
And I wouldn't wanna

766
00:54:13.215 --> 00:54:29.900
waste a day of my life building on on, you know, on sand. And that's that's what every other project feels like. I find it kind of funny because I also look at, Ethereum a lot in terms of its technology. I think Ethereum has amazing technology and very, very smart people.

767
00:54:30.759 --> 00:54:31.420
But it's,

768
00:54:31.799 --> 00:54:36.460
it is definitely built on sand, so I wouldn't put my money into Ethereum at all.

769
00:54:37.065 --> 00:54:44.285
But I I consider it as something it's like a it's like a library or like a mood board where you get inspiration from.

770
00:54:44.744 --> 00:54:47.724
Ethereum is is a trove of,

771
00:54:48.425 --> 00:54:51.885
smart and intelligent ideas built on the wrong system.

772
00:54:52.299 --> 00:54:52.619
So,

773
00:54:53.180 --> 00:54:58.319
I like to learn about Ethereum, how it works, interact with people who work on Ethereum.

774
00:54:59.660 --> 00:55:04.079
But I wouldn't wanna spend a day of my life just building on it. And

775
00:55:05.019 --> 00:55:06.079
so my my

776
00:55:06.619 --> 00:55:07.119
focus

777
00:55:07.905 --> 00:55:08.405
rather

778
00:55:09.025 --> 00:55:12.645
is how do we get people who have fallen for the

779
00:55:13.265 --> 00:55:13.765
scams?

780
00:55:14.545 --> 00:55:16.085
I mean, especially the devs,

781
00:55:16.705 --> 00:55:19.985
who's who chosen to spend a lifetime on this,

782
00:55:20.385 --> 00:55:23.540
to be, you know, failing projects and how do we get them,

783
00:55:24.340 --> 00:55:26.760
to Bitcoin and make them contribute to Bitcoin.

784
00:55:27.860 --> 00:55:30.360
That's that's that's the most important thing to me.

785
00:55:31.700 --> 00:55:32.520
Well said.

786
00:55:33.220 --> 00:55:34.680
I cosigned that message.

787
00:55:36.765 --> 00:55:39.505
So I think since we last spoke in March,

788
00:55:41.085 --> 00:55:43.505
you released cashew. Me which is

789
00:55:44.924 --> 00:55:49.904
a PWA. It's a it's a wallet you can use in the web to interact with Cashew.

790
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:59.860
What is what is the goal of that project? I mean, I I've been using it as one of my daily drivers in terms of a spending wallet for a while,

791
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:05.245
and it's it's come a long way. It's one of my favorite wallets now when

792
00:56:06.025 --> 00:56:13.245
I'm onboarding someone new and just wanna send them, you know, a small amount of stats. What is your what is your goal there, and why should people,

793
00:56:14.665 --> 00:56:15.805
play around with it?

794
00:56:16.585 --> 00:56:28.500
Yeah. So, cash it with me is a PWA, as you said. You should all who's listening, you know, anyone who's listening, you can go to your, mobile device's native browser. So on iOS and Safari and,

795
00:56:28.980 --> 00:56:32.200
on your Android device that will most likely be Chrome.

796
00:56:32.825 --> 00:56:34.444
You can go to cash it dot me.

797
00:56:34.904 --> 00:57:08.655
And in your mobile device, there is a share button or in on Android, there is this hamburger button on the top right. But on iOS, it's the share button on the bottom. You press that button and you scroll to add to home screen. And when you do that, what it does is creates an icon of that of that page that you're looking at on your home screen, and it's now installed as a PWA, which is a progressive web app. And progressive web apps, those are it's kind of a browser based technology that makes a website look like an app. But the nice thing about that is that you can distribute apps such as the wallet that I just, you know, cash out of me,

798
00:57:09.275 --> 00:57:14.750
distributed without going through an app store. So for me as a developer, it's it's the most

799
00:57:15.050 --> 00:57:16.490
straightforward way to,

800
00:57:17.450 --> 00:57:19.790
to reach anyone who's using that wallet.

801
00:57:20.090 --> 00:57:26.830
And so this is a web wallet that used to cash your protocol. It's a very basic and simple one that I I've built and,

802
00:57:27.130 --> 00:57:30.385
you know, I must mention that I'm not a front end developer. So,

803
00:57:30.765 --> 00:57:31.905
it's kind of my

804
00:57:33.645 --> 00:57:34.145
most,

805
00:57:35.005 --> 00:57:39.265
proud front end GUI based application that I've built so far.

806
00:57:40.809 --> 00:57:41.549
But so,

807
00:57:43.690 --> 00:57:46.029
the idea there is that this is a website

808
00:57:46.410 --> 00:57:58.065
that runs in your in your browser. It's not something that is connected to a back end. So it's just the the website itself. You just fetch it once from a server, and then everything runs on your device.

809
00:57:58.525 --> 00:58:04.865
And, it's a full fledged cashier wallet, so, generates its own keys, has seed phrase backup, and so on.

810
00:58:05.165 --> 00:58:05.565
And,

811
00:58:06.125 --> 00:58:09.345
as you said, it's just it's the fastest way to get anyone

812
00:58:09.645 --> 00:58:11.060
to use Bitcoin,

813
00:58:11.600 --> 00:58:13.220
the cost of your lightning wallet,

814
00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:18.420
because you just simply go to the website. There is no login. There is no email sign up. Nothing.

815
00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:19.200
And,

816
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:32.555
what's also nice is that you can take cash out of me and host it on a different domain. So even if my domain would get rugged and cache. Me goes away, anyone can just clone the GitHub repository and put it onto cache.u.

817
00:58:33.095 --> 00:58:37.375
And, and suddenly it runs there, and you can transfer all your e cache from,

818
00:58:37.815 --> 00:58:40.155
one PWA to the other PWA.

819
00:58:40.970 --> 00:58:45.630
So definitely go check it out. I'm working on like, constantly working on features,

820
00:58:46.250 --> 00:58:47.470
on that wallet because,

821
00:58:48.569 --> 00:58:52.910
you know, I'm I'm deeply involved in the protocol design of Cashew with others,

822
00:58:53.289 --> 00:59:01.175
who who do a lot of work as well. So it's not just me, But, I'm trying to implement most of the newest stuff that we,

823
00:59:01.555 --> 00:59:08.610
develop in terms of the protocol. I'm trying to implement that right away into either nutshell, which is a back end and,

824
00:59:09.010 --> 00:59:11.670
like a mint implementation that I that I contribute to,

825
00:59:12.130 --> 00:59:18.630
and to cash with me, which is a one of the implementation that I contribute to. So, I'm try these 2 projects,

826
00:59:19.250 --> 00:59:20.790
I'm heavily involved with.

827
00:59:21.250 --> 00:59:22.230
They are usually

828
00:59:22.825 --> 00:59:26.365
totally up to date with the specs as far as as far as I can,

829
00:59:26.745 --> 00:59:31.565
because we actually need to implement stuff in order to know whether it's a good idea or not.

830
00:59:33.785 --> 00:59:34.265
Awesome.

831
00:59:34.905 --> 00:59:38.205
Yeah. I mean, the cool part about Cashew is that it is this open protocol,

832
00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:46.020
that you can have many different front ends for and that it is separate, it separates the front end from the custodian unlike traditional

833
00:59:46.400 --> 00:59:47.779
custodial Lightning wallets.

834
00:59:48.720 --> 00:59:49.220
Where

835
00:59:49.839 --> 00:59:54.635
independent of which front end you can use you can choose different mints on the back end.

836
00:59:55.975 --> 00:59:59.435
First off, I have a question for you. What is and

837
00:59:59.735 --> 01:00:07.275
I mean, I know it's hard to pick a favorite child. What is your favorite Cashew wallet? If you had to recommend 1 Cashew wallet, what's your favorite right now?

838
01:00:07.980 --> 01:00:11.360
I think the best Casio wallet out there is probably MiniBits.

839
01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:12.320
So,

840
01:00:12.700 --> 01:00:22.140
unfortunately, it only exists for Android. But if you're an Android user, then MiniBits on the Google Play Store is just amazing. It's super stable. And,

841
01:00:22.540 --> 01:00:26.235
I think the best quality of a cash word these days is still stability.

842
01:00:27.175 --> 01:00:37.320
There are still some jankiness in some wallets here and there. Fortunately, there are seed phrases, so you don't have to be afraid even if the wallet does something wrong. The seed phrase will get you e cash back.

843
01:00:38.440 --> 01:00:39.640
And And you

844
01:00:40.040 --> 01:00:48.780
Yeah. But with that seed phrase, you can go into a different you can go into a different app and use that seed phrase and get your Yeah. Exactly. So the seed phrase itself is also a protocol specification

845
01:00:49.080 --> 01:00:53.865
how to use the seed phrase if you're an app developer. And the idea is that,

846
01:00:54.345 --> 01:01:10.089
you know, you start your wallet, CashNet. It generates a seed phrase for you. You you put that seed phrase somewhere safe, and you can just keep using that wallet. And you lose your phone now with e cash. One of the biggest issues with e cash is because it doesn't have an account. There is no,

847
01:01:10.710 --> 01:01:20.415
identification or anything. So how do you get your money back if you lose your phone? And for the 1st year in cashew, it literally meant if you lose your phone, the money is gone. It's just like cash in your

848
01:01:21.055 --> 01:01:23.795
wallets. If you lose the wallet, like a physical wallet,

849
01:01:24.415 --> 01:01:25.235
money's gone.

850
01:01:26.015 --> 01:01:32.915
Since then but I I, you know, I had a hard time recommending it to normal people because I I realized how how

851
01:01:33.280 --> 01:01:35.600
stupid and dangerous that situation is. But,

852
01:01:36.080 --> 01:01:37.140
since then, we,

853
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:38.340
implemented

854
01:01:38.800 --> 01:01:43.060
seed phrases in pretty much every wallet out there, and they're all compatible. So

855
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:50.955
as long as you keep that seed phrase safe and you remember which means that you used because that information is not inside the seed phrase. It's additional information.

856
01:01:52.775 --> 01:01:55.435
So seed phrase plus the list of means that you have,

857
01:01:55.815 --> 01:01:57.675
as long as you can keep those things

858
01:01:57.975 --> 01:01:58.955
somewhere safe,

859
01:02:00.600 --> 01:02:04.540
and those mints remain online, you'll always be able to regenerate,

860
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:10.060
the e cache that you have lost. So, I mean, that brings me to the second question, which is

861
01:02:10.520 --> 01:02:12.780
it seems like the biggest friction point

862
01:02:14.040 --> 01:02:15.580
right now with Cashew

863
01:02:16.345 --> 01:02:23.405
I mean, the the the beauty of Cashew and the reason why I like it so much is that it has very little friction to use Bitcoin.

864
01:02:23.865 --> 01:02:25.405
It's very cheap to use.

865
01:02:26.505 --> 01:02:32.920
The interface is is is fantastic. You can make offline payments and you have very strong privacy guarantees.

866
01:02:33.220 --> 01:02:36.039
So like the default way of using

867
01:02:36.339 --> 01:02:40.200
Cashew wallets is just a very positive user experience

868
01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:42.280
with the one exception being

869
01:02:43.140 --> 01:02:45.079
which mint does the user choose,

870
01:02:45.995 --> 01:02:51.615
when they they first set up a wallet? How do you think about making that process easier

871
01:02:51.915 --> 01:02:55.695
and, like yeah. How should users think about choosing their mint?

872
01:02:56.235 --> 01:02:59.275
Yeah. That's the that's the ultimate question right there. Right? So,

873
01:02:59.915 --> 01:03:00.575
I mean,

874
01:03:01.180 --> 01:03:09.180
maybe just start with one step back. What you said before is that we're we're kind of separating the front end from the back end in a way that,

875
01:03:09.500 --> 01:03:28.585
that a protocol allows you to do. So what does that mean? That means, let's say, you use one of those Satoshi. There are 2 parts of that software, although you as a user only see 1. You see only the front end, which is the application running on your phone. That's what draws the graphics and shows you the numbers. But there is also the back end that's on the server of one of those Satoshi.

876
01:03:29.390 --> 01:03:35.010
There was there's a database and there is the actual Bitcoin, a lightning node, and so on. So, typically,

877
01:03:35.550 --> 01:03:44.984
you can only use one front end for one back end. That means, like, there's one company, Wallet of the Satoshi, running the back end, giving you one single application, and that's the way you use voice to

878
01:03:45.445 --> 01:03:47.845
Satoshi. Now what we want to do and,

879
01:03:48.165 --> 01:03:49.785
what we're trying to achieve is,

880
01:03:50.964 --> 01:03:53.545
to create a world where a custodian,

881
01:03:54.405 --> 01:04:03.060
that might be a company, could be a Cypherpunk friend, of yours, or it could be a service provider for a specific thing like a website or so.

882
01:04:03.520 --> 01:04:06.160
They can use a back end for their,

883
01:04:06.720 --> 01:04:08.100
for their system,

884
01:04:08.640 --> 01:04:09.540
Casu Mint.

885
01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:15.425
But you can choose the front end that you want to use this Casu Mint with. And that kind of decouples,

886
01:04:16.365 --> 01:04:18.125
these 2 these 2,

887
01:04:18.445 --> 01:04:18.945
areas.

888
01:04:19.245 --> 01:04:24.065
So you can just be a custodian, for example, and you can focus on being a custodian.

889
01:04:24.445 --> 01:04:28.065
Maybe also create, like, one app to use your back end service.

890
01:04:28.525 --> 01:04:46.204
But you can you also immediately benefit from the existence of, like, 10 different wallets out there that anyone can just download and connect to your back end and and use use use your services, which is great. So that gives people more freedom and choice. It's very important in terms of,

891
01:04:46.825 --> 01:04:54.605
security and privacy because the privacy guarantees that cashier gives you mathematical privacy. Right? It's not like the custodian chooses to give you privacy.

892
01:04:55.144 --> 01:04:58.045
It's you cannot break blind signatures. That's like,

893
01:04:58.670 --> 01:05:06.290
but you can only be confident in your privacy if you can actually audit the code. Right? No. Almost no one can do that. So it's good to have, like, common

894
01:05:06.590 --> 01:05:07.570
clients that,

895
01:05:07.950 --> 01:05:11.570
different people use because there are more eyes on the code and

896
01:05:12.590 --> 01:05:13.970
bad stuff would be detected.

897
01:05:16.085 --> 01:05:16.565
So,

898
01:05:18.405 --> 01:05:20.085
and to mention to to,

899
01:05:20.405 --> 01:05:21.525
to close off this,

900
01:05:22.005 --> 01:05:33.920
is I wanna mention coin OS. Coin OS is a is a wallet provider that has existed before Casio existed. So, I've known them for a long time. They're they're super based. They're in Canada. They're building

901
01:05:34.299 --> 01:05:35.819
very sleek and,

902
01:05:36.700 --> 01:05:38.319
easy to use web wallet,

903
01:05:39.099 --> 01:05:39.839
so karnos.io.

904
01:05:41.835 --> 01:05:42.315
And,

905
01:05:42.795 --> 01:05:57.130
they've recently moved all their communications from Twitter to nostr, by the way. They're, like, nostr only now and go all into nostr. But what they also did, and this is something that I kind of always wanted to see, also predicted in the beginning,

906
01:05:57.510 --> 01:06:01.369
is that we will see existing service providers that already have a user base,

907
01:06:02.309 --> 01:06:11.745
see that, you know, there's a new product, which is e cash, and they can offer that to the users, which would be in their case, for example, a voucher system. So coin us implemented

908
01:06:12.125 --> 01:06:20.705
add a cash into their back end that already exists and added a Casu client into their front end, which they which also already exist.

909
01:06:21.190 --> 01:06:24.490
That, thousands and thousands of users are using it already.

910
01:06:24.790 --> 01:06:42.484
So, they added Casio in the back end and in the front end. This allowed them to implement the feature for their users, which is like a gift card feature. So they have now this gift card button that is actually e cash. So press a button, enter amount, and you can send this piece of data to another coin auth user. And that way, you can transfer value

911
01:06:42.785 --> 01:06:44.085
in the coin auth system.

912
01:06:44.704 --> 01:06:58.950
What they also did though, and this is amazing, a super base of them, and I how I hoped that all this would play out is they just want a cash mint, and it's a cash mint that anyone can use. So you can use coin us without using their application

913
01:06:59.330 --> 01:07:00.150
by just downloading,

914
01:07:00.930 --> 01:07:05.745
a cash wallet. You can go to cash. Me, use that wallet, and use coin us as the back end mint.

915
01:07:06.145 --> 01:07:19.105
And maybe, hopefully, one day they'll even make, some profit of that or be able to offset the cost of providing that service through fees and so on. But, the the connection between you as a user and the company running the mint,

916
01:07:19.825 --> 01:07:25.359
can really be kind of decoupled from each other, and you can choose which software that you wanna use. So,

917
01:07:25.980 --> 01:07:36.525
it's very similar to to our to our approach to Nostra, for example, where we just want don't want to silo in the user into a specific vision of what an app should look like.

918
01:07:37.244 --> 01:07:38.845
Yeah. The CoinOS guys are,

919
01:07:39.885 --> 01:07:42.464
fucking awesome. I did I had them on sale dispatch,

920
01:07:43.404 --> 01:07:44.385
episode 114.

921
01:07:45.724 --> 01:07:50.065
Everyone should go back and listen to it if they if they haven't yet. That was in November 2023.

922
01:07:51.200 --> 01:07:53.220
So that was pre e cash, pre

923
01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:56.259
pre noster integration.

924
01:07:57.359 --> 01:07:58.420
But they've been

925
01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:01.619
building out just tools for Bitcoiners for a long time,

926
01:08:02.640 --> 01:08:03.859
and are very,

927
01:08:07.875 --> 01:08:09.735
they're very focused on trying

928
01:08:10.915 --> 01:08:12.775
to maintain that freedom ethos.

929
01:08:13.555 --> 01:08:15.975
But you didn't really answer my question. How does,

930
01:08:17.315 --> 01:08:18.775
how does a new user,

931
01:08:19.290 --> 01:08:27.070
how should they think about selecting their mint and how do we make that easier for them? Oh, yeah. Because like right now, like they basically just

932
01:08:27.849 --> 01:08:30.030
blindly ask me which mint

933
01:08:30.409 --> 01:08:34.989
to choose and I blindly tell them the mint you told me to choose.

934
01:08:35.665 --> 01:08:44.725
So that's kind of what I'm operating under right now. Well, first of all, I can't recommend any mint to anyone. I hope I mean, you understand that, but,

935
01:08:45.185 --> 01:08:47.205
the way I would go about this,

936
01:08:47.824 --> 01:08:52.810
as a like, I really wanna stress that using a mint is a risk.

937
01:08:53.190 --> 01:08:57.770
You put your money into a service provider, and that service provider could just vanish. So

938
01:08:58.150 --> 01:09:19.420
don't ever put a lot of money into a mint and use it only for pocket money, very small amounts, things that you would, you know, use to buy an Apple or newspaper or make a zap or something. Yeah. It's cash it's cash in your back pocket. I mean, I know the kids these days don't know what that's like, but it's it's the cash you have in your back pocket when you go out into the city to Exactly.

939
01:09:20.040 --> 01:09:20.540
So

940
01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:22.780
given that, the risk becomes

941
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:29.100
kind of manageable for anyone. But still, you shouldn't use just a random mint that you don't know about.

942
01:09:29.405 --> 01:09:39.985
You should really pick your mint depending on who you choose to trust. And I cannot answer that question for anyone. I like, there are we've mentioned a couple of serve services already in this episode,

943
01:09:40.365 --> 01:09:44.385
so you know that they exist. And in the case, if it's a company,

944
01:09:44.750 --> 01:09:52.530
then you can even reach them. But you should be very cognizant about what you use and what to choose. And we're trying to build these,

945
01:09:53.310 --> 01:09:58.130
tools that help you to make that decision more easier ease more easily.

946
01:09:58.635 --> 01:10:03.375
But, there is no ultimate answer to that. That's the price of a cryptonarkic

947
01:10:03.755 --> 01:10:06.255
system is that you need to do the research.

948
01:10:06.715 --> 01:10:07.215
Obviously,

949
01:10:07.835 --> 01:10:10.735
when we are at that point where my grandma can

950
01:10:11.190 --> 01:10:14.170
use this because it's just integrated into her

951
01:10:15.030 --> 01:10:16.010
digital experience,

952
01:10:16.630 --> 01:10:26.090
then that choice will have been made for her already. Or she will just, you know, use the bank that she's already using or trust the shop that she's already trusting.

953
01:10:26.425 --> 01:10:28.205
But we're not there yet. We're still

954
01:10:28.585 --> 01:10:35.245
in this anarchic phase of a, you know, bottom up cash humans springing up, run by individuals

955
01:10:35.625 --> 01:10:40.605
that most of them I've never heard of. And I I don't you know, I can't recommend them.

956
01:10:41.610 --> 01:10:47.710
But I must admit, like, I still use them. I put a couple 1,000 sets here and a couple 1,000 sets there because I enjoy

957
01:10:48.170 --> 01:10:50.989
the the ability to choose, and I enjoy

958
01:10:51.370 --> 01:11:01.095
the privacy it gives me to spread out my sets and what to talk to a single service all the time and so on. So, that's it. But what are we doing to make that choice easier?

959
01:11:01.635 --> 01:11:09.655
So even though we want to avoid people to use random means that they have never heard of, that's also the reason why there is no default

960
01:11:10.280 --> 01:11:22.280
mint in cash. Me because I don't want people to make a default choice. They they should rather turn off that wallet and not use it than to make, to follow my ill advice. So,

961
01:11:23.675 --> 01:11:38.175
but we're trying to make life easier. So first of all, there is a NIP. There's a Noster protocol improvement proposal that, I think it's NIP 87. I always get this one wrong. But this one allows you to recommend mints on Noster. So there

962
01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:39.260
is already

963
01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:49.260
although, you know, it hasn't been widespread adoption yet, but I think that we're on a good good track there, is that you can you can see which means your friends have,

964
01:11:49.719 --> 01:11:58.574
recommended, which ones they are using. I think that's a very good heuristic. Like, that's probably what I would go with if, I would be, you know, thrown into this,

965
01:11:58.875 --> 01:12:06.659
ecosystem without knowing, what's what's good or what's bad. I would just ask my friends. And if you don't wanna ask your friends directly, you just would use this nipsnip87,

966
01:12:08.960 --> 01:12:14.739
which gives you a list of recommendations of your friends. And you can try this, right now. If you want, you can just go to bitcoinminst.com.

967
01:12:16.159 --> 01:12:22.675
This is run by someone else, but it just aggregates data posted publicly on Nostar of people,

968
01:12:23.614 --> 01:12:30.835
either announcing that the user Mint or also rating a Mint and giving a comment, which is great. Nostar is amazing for that because,

969
01:12:31.980 --> 01:12:38.080
well, it's uncensorable speech and uncensorable Yelp in a sense. So it helps you to get these recommendations.

970
01:12:39.180 --> 01:12:46.065
But also because the civil resistance of Nostra is basically doesn't exist. So anyone can just spin up an identity,

971
01:12:46.764 --> 01:12:53.264
as many as they want. So it's easy to fake reviews as well. So what you wanna rely on is is your web of trust,

972
01:12:53.565 --> 01:13:04.469
we say, is what what your friends say and what the friends of your friends say maybe. And that's that's already usually, it's big enough. That that circle of people is big enough to find someone saying something interesting.

973
01:13:04.929 --> 01:13:05.250
So,

974
01:13:05.889 --> 01:13:10.309
you can do that. I think that's a very good approach. Another thing that, I'm,

975
01:13:10.849 --> 01:13:11.670
working on

976
01:13:12.345 --> 01:13:19.005
these days is this auditor idea. So, I have this this Mint Auditor that is you can find it on audit.8333.space.

977
01:13:21.305 --> 01:13:23.125
This is like a,

978
01:13:23.465 --> 01:13:25.165
experimental project of mine.

979
01:13:25.880 --> 01:13:27.099
It's basically a website

980
01:13:27.560 --> 01:13:28.060
that,

981
01:13:28.840 --> 01:13:40.485
has a has a cashier wallet with 30 different mints or so. You can donate e cash from any mint to it, and it will add that mint to the list of mints, in that in that interface.

982
01:13:40.865 --> 01:13:51.445
But it will constantly check the mints for their health, basically, for their uptime and whether the lightning node still works. So this is one way at least to have kind of a canary

983
01:13:52.179 --> 01:13:52.920
that can,

984
01:13:53.619 --> 01:13:54.440
tell us

985
01:13:54.900 --> 01:14:13.755
that a mint has, for example, gone down and their likely note has stopped working and you cannot get money out of that mint anymore. So that's obviously a mint that you should avoid and you should not recommend. And other mints that have been running for months years, and there have been, like, this this auditor has made thousands of payments with that mint without any,

986
01:14:14.454 --> 01:14:20.635
ever having an issue there. That's a sign for a good mint that is well maintained, and the operator is running it. And,

987
01:14:21.070 --> 01:14:34.850
I mean, there's a good chance that it won't drag you, on the next day. Obviously, on the long term, you don't know and other things should make you consider whether you wanna trust mint on a long term. But as I said, just we are still at a point where you should remain vigilant.

988
01:14:35.295 --> 01:14:45.235
You should only put low amounts into a cash, and you should know why you're doing it. Like, you should only do it because you want to use Bitcoin and not because you wanna store Bitcoin or,

989
01:14:45.775 --> 01:14:48.195
receive Bitcoin and keep it there for a long time.

990
01:14:49.200 --> 01:14:58.340
As long as you keep these simple rules in mind, which there is no other way, I'm sorry, you need to learn these rules because that's the price of making your own choices,

991
01:14:59.040 --> 01:15:02.340
I think you're good. I think we will come to a point where,

992
01:15:02.975 --> 01:15:06.755
like, the normie won't have to won't have to think about these things because,

993
01:15:07.135 --> 01:15:16.350
you know, I don't know. Maybe Cash App will run a mint or maybe a Kraken will run a mint, and it will be, like a household name that lots of people trust.

994
01:15:16.730 --> 01:15:24.510
And then you'll just use that mint and, you'll get dropped when the company gets rocked. But, the chances of that happening is substantially

995
01:15:25.050 --> 01:15:25.550
smaller

996
01:15:25.850 --> 01:15:26.989
than using,

997
01:15:28.535 --> 01:15:30.155
like, a random crypto analytous

998
01:15:30.535 --> 01:15:37.835
mints that's behind an onion address and you don't even know who's running that. Right? That also has its own appeal, but obviously is, more dangerous.

999
01:15:39.590 --> 01:15:51.369
Yeah, I mean I think in classic Cali fashion you gave us a very nuanced in-depth answer so thank you for that. This time did I answer the question actually or? You did answer the question. I think the Noster recommendation stuff is particularly,

1000
01:15:52.150 --> 01:15:55.485
interesting and I think it's important to realize too that,

1001
01:15:56.045 --> 01:15:57.744
you know, if you don't have,

1002
01:15:58.364 --> 01:16:04.385
we we say web of trust a lot, but at the end of the day, web of trust is like this idea of just verifiable reputation.

1003
01:16:05.725 --> 01:16:07.665
And if you don't have, like, an established

1004
01:16:08.850 --> 01:16:09.989
network on Nostr,

1005
01:16:10.530 --> 01:16:16.070
one of the cool aspects of it is that you can just, like, borrow someone else's that you trust. So you can use,

1006
01:16:16.449 --> 01:16:17.429
you know, Cali's

1007
01:16:17.810 --> 01:16:23.510
PubKey or My PubKey, and then you're basically seeing recommendations from people that we

1008
01:16:23.815 --> 01:16:24.635
follow on Noster.

1009
01:16:25.735 --> 01:16:30.395
And it it kinda acts as this nice open bootstrapping mechanism in terms

1010
01:16:30.775 --> 01:16:34.074
of verifiable reputation. I think that's a key aspect here.

1011
01:16:36.215 --> 01:16:36.454
I,

1012
01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:39.180
you mentioned,

1013
01:16:41.160 --> 01:16:49.260
you know, like a sovereign mints that run behind Tor addresses. There's also something isn't there aren't you guys working on something in terms of using, like, the Noster

1014
01:16:49.960 --> 01:16:51.740
Noster as the discovery mechanism,

1015
01:16:53.205 --> 01:16:55.784
so that you could connect to Mins using Noster?

1016
01:16:56.245 --> 01:16:58.985
Yeah. So the discovery mechanism would be this SNP

1017
01:16:59.364 --> 01:17:25.175
87 thing. Right? How do you find the Mins? And you can do that without interacting with the normal Internet. Basically, you can just do it from pure Nosta only. You can do that actually in cash. Me in the wallet. You can when you open the wallet, you go to the mints tab. You scroll all the way down. It says discover mints. And when you press that button, like, there's a spinner that searches for mints, and it's doing exactly what I described before. It's it looks on Nosta for view reviews and stuff. So you can use that to find a mint. Again, disclaimer,

1018
01:17:26.035 --> 01:17:26.855
you're responsible,

1019
01:17:27.715 --> 01:17:31.815
yourself, what's happening there. But, yeah. Yeah. I'll come to your point.

1020
01:17:32.290 --> 01:17:35.090
Do you know what I'm talking about? Okay. Yeah. No. So it's like this,

1021
01:17:35.650 --> 01:17:37.350
we call this master web services,

1022
01:17:37.890 --> 01:17:43.110
and it was made by one of the devs working on, cashier specific stuff because, well,

1023
01:17:43.570 --> 01:17:49.175
the the idea of sending data around on master directly is not a very new or,

1024
01:17:50.295 --> 01:17:55.915
creative idea. Lots of people have thought about this. But the challenge with sending data over is,

1025
01:17:56.614 --> 01:17:59.514
mostly efficiency and traffic and so on. Like,

1026
01:18:00.360 --> 01:18:18.035
so it's you can do it, but you shouldn't stream a YouTube video over Nasr or just download high amounts of data. But if you interact with the with an e cache mint, the the interactions with the mint are pretty minimal. So you're just sending small amounts of data back and forth to, you know, mint a token

1027
01:18:18.415 --> 01:18:32.670
and, invalidate a token or create a lightning invoice and and mint the e cash from that lightning invoice. All of those messages are text messages. Basically, you can imagine, like, a bunch of text being sent back and forth between a wallet and a mint, and it's relatively small.

1028
01:18:33.610 --> 01:18:34.110
So,

1029
01:18:34.889 --> 01:18:35.389
what,

1030
01:18:35.849 --> 01:18:40.270
this already exists in Southern app, by the way. So this is a work in progress,

1031
01:18:40.650 --> 01:18:42.670
mobile wallet that hopefully,

1032
01:18:43.050 --> 01:18:46.755
will also be able to recommend to iOS users soon. There are a couple of iOS,

1033
01:18:47.375 --> 01:18:50.034
native iOS apps being built right now.

1034
01:18:50.655 --> 01:19:00.030
But, the Sovereign app, it, is done by, an amazing dev called David Kasuri. He's he's a cashew dev. He's working on a mint implementation,

1035
01:19:01.370 --> 01:19:01.870
Chamberlain,

1036
01:19:02.570 --> 01:19:08.489
and, a wallet implementation, which is the sovereign app. And the default way that this,

1037
01:19:08.810 --> 01:19:09.710
mint implementation

1038
01:19:10.170 --> 01:19:15.985
and the app works is that the wallet talks to the mint not over normal Internet,

1039
01:19:16.365 --> 01:19:16.865
TCP,

1040
01:19:17.245 --> 01:19:19.105
IP connections to a web server,

1041
01:19:19.485 --> 01:19:20.865
but through the nostril,

1042
01:19:21.565 --> 01:19:22.065
network.

1043
01:19:22.365 --> 01:19:25.410
So what you do is you add the mint as a public key,

1044
01:19:25.890 --> 01:19:26.390
essentially,

1045
01:19:27.090 --> 01:19:28.210
and he calls these,

1046
01:19:28.930 --> 01:19:30.150
clans, I think.

1047
01:19:30.610 --> 01:19:33.030
He uses like a similar word, tribes.

1048
01:19:33.890 --> 01:19:46.284
But the idea is like that you as a, you know, you you as a friend, you as a Cypher Park husband or wife, you can run a mint for your, family or your friends or your community.

1049
01:19:46.744 --> 01:19:48.364
And this mint will never,

1050
01:19:48.985 --> 01:19:56.204
be announced on the normal Internet. It will only live inside Mostar. And what what that means is the only way to reach that mint is to send messages

1051
01:19:56.760 --> 01:19:58.860
via also to that mint. And

1052
01:19:59.560 --> 01:20:01.180
that has a number of,

1053
01:20:02.040 --> 01:20:03.180
really cool advantages.

1054
01:20:04.360 --> 01:20:07.020
First of all, you can run the mint anywhere.

1055
01:20:07.560 --> 01:20:10.380
That means, like, it's for slightly more technical folks.

1056
01:20:10.824 --> 01:20:19.965
Everyone knows that if you wanna run a server, you need to make sure that the IP is reachable, the ports are open, the file was configured correctly, and blah blah blah, all that stuff.

1057
01:20:20.344 --> 01:20:25.165
When you have a mint that runs on NWS as a lost a web service,

1058
01:20:25.850 --> 01:20:26.910
It can be reached

1059
01:20:27.370 --> 01:20:28.750
by anyone because,

1060
01:20:29.770 --> 01:20:32.670
there is this master relay in between, basically helping

1061
01:20:33.050 --> 01:20:34.750
anyone to connect anyone

1062
01:20:35.450 --> 01:20:36.110
to anything.

1063
01:20:36.410 --> 01:20:37.710
That's also why master,

1064
01:20:38.010 --> 01:20:51.235
wallet connect works so great, for example. You can just press a button on your computer, and your phone will make a lightning payment. And the reason why this works is there is Nostra in the middle mediating these messages between those devices.

1065
01:20:51.695 --> 01:20:55.235
And so we have something similar for for arbitrary HTTP,

1066
01:20:56.520 --> 01:21:09.180
HTTPS. I should say, for arbitrary TCP data. So you can literally pretend as if you're a normal TCP socket on one side and on the other side. And what happens in the background is that these TCP packets,

1067
01:21:09.555 --> 01:21:10.295
they are,

1068
01:21:10.915 --> 01:21:18.855
either sent directly by Nostra. That's one way of doing it. Or, there's a direct peer to peer connection established between the sender and the receiver

1069
01:21:19.395 --> 01:21:24.535
through communication through Nostra. But, you know, both of these ways essentially use Nostra to connect

1070
01:21:24.870 --> 01:21:26.330
the client to a server.

1071
01:21:27.670 --> 01:21:30.010
So as I said, one benefit is you can run

1072
01:21:30.550 --> 01:21:35.449
any service. This doesn't have to be a cashier link. It can be any web service, can be any web server,

1073
01:21:35.830 --> 01:21:39.929
and it can be reached by anyone. And the second nice thing about it is that you have

1074
01:21:40.635 --> 01:21:45.775
relatively good privacy for cheap price, which is like you hide your IP address from

1075
01:21:46.075 --> 01:21:48.415
your users. So if you run a mint

1076
01:21:48.795 --> 01:21:55.535
in your own home Internet, which, is a questionable decision, but might make sense for some people,

1077
01:21:56.550 --> 01:22:02.490
If you do that, you can isolate your IP address from users of your Mint by just, you know, having a master

1078
01:22:03.270 --> 01:22:09.910
relay in between obfuscating that direct connection. Obviously, you're you're doxing yourself to the to the relay operator, but,

1079
01:22:10.655 --> 01:22:15.855
you know, that's still a lot better than announcing your IP address to the entire world and,

1080
01:22:16.735 --> 01:22:19.875
letting everyone connect to you directly into your home

1081
01:22:20.255 --> 01:22:20.755
network.

1082
01:22:21.455 --> 01:22:24.515
So there's, there's already stuff happening there. I think

1083
01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:27.020
we'll probably see more of that.

1084
01:22:27.400 --> 01:22:35.820
We're trying to keep the protocol as agnostic as possible from, you know, assuming what transport medium is used so that we can do,

1085
01:22:36.280 --> 01:22:39.020
things like that, have experiments like that. And

1086
01:22:39.975 --> 01:22:43.275
the the one thing that we've done so far is to just

1087
01:22:43.655 --> 01:22:45.994
use most of the entire communication between

1088
01:22:46.295 --> 01:22:51.114
wallet and mint, but they have there have been people who used, LoRa, reticulum,

1089
01:22:51.655 --> 01:22:53.114
like, mesh networks

1090
01:22:53.730 --> 01:22:57.110
instead of, the Internet to connect the wallet to the mint,

1091
01:22:57.490 --> 01:23:05.490
to demonstrate how you can use a cash shipment if when in a post apocalyptic scene where there is no Internet anymore, for example. So,

1092
01:23:06.610 --> 01:23:07.990
anything that can transport,

1093
01:23:08.695 --> 01:23:10.715
text can be used to exchange,

1094
01:23:11.094 --> 01:23:21.255
e cash. That's what's so cool about e cash because at the end of the day, you know, your communication with the Mint is just about your text, but also the communication between wallets. Like, if I wanna pay you e cash,

1095
01:23:22.054 --> 01:23:30.730
I just sent you a piece of text. And anything that can carry this piece of text can be useful as a trans transmission medium. Be it noster,

1096
01:23:31.110 --> 01:23:32.570
be it, maybe

1097
01:23:32.950 --> 01:23:33.590
one day,

1098
01:23:34.070 --> 01:23:36.170
Apple will allow us to use its NFC,

1099
01:23:37.110 --> 01:23:41.675
or whether it's Bluetooth or mesh network and so on and so forth.

1100
01:23:43.094 --> 01:23:46.155
Yeah, I mean this is fascinating to me because I do think,

1101
01:23:47.255 --> 01:23:53.660
the success of Cashew heavily does rely on reducing the friction of of running mints.

1102
01:23:55.080 --> 01:24:02.860
And this seems like a very elegant way to further reduce that friction. I mean, I think that's also one of the reasons why we've seen cashew

1103
01:24:04.925 --> 01:24:07.905
kind of organically grow, particularly in the mint side,

1104
01:24:08.685 --> 01:24:13.585
much much faster than Fedimint where it's there's a lot more friction and technical

1105
01:24:15.805 --> 01:24:16.305
requirements,

1106
01:24:17.245 --> 01:24:22.040
to run a high uptime Fedimint server. Yeah. A couple of comments on that.

1107
01:24:22.580 --> 01:24:35.560
I wanna say, so the it's a it's a it's a balance that we're actually trying to strike there, and it's it's a delicate balance between making it easy to run a mint and making it too easy to run a mint. And, I know with, you know,

1108
01:24:36.075 --> 01:24:46.255
with the danger of sounding like a dick, but not everyone should run a mint. Some people are just too stupid to run a mint safely and not capable of. That's what I should have said.

1109
01:24:47.195 --> 01:24:47.695
So

1110
01:24:48.079 --> 01:25:02.659
it's some sometimes you have a situation where someone's like, fuck it. Let's run a mint. And you're like, I don't know, man. You you don't know the Linux terminal. And, like, what do you do if something goes wrong? And, like, there there is a balance

1111
01:25:03.135 --> 01:25:05.235
between because it's it's

1112
01:25:06.175 --> 01:25:07.555
a it's a lot of responsibility

1113
01:25:08.015 --> 01:25:15.635
to run a mint, and everyone should who does that should know it because people will expect you to keep that mint up for,

1114
01:25:16.360 --> 01:25:19.820
extended period of time. And if you close the mint, you'll have to,

1115
01:25:20.120 --> 01:25:21.580
like, reach those people

1116
01:25:21.960 --> 01:25:27.260
who put Bitcoin into a mint to take it out again. So, like, it's it's it's not like

1117
01:25:27.640 --> 01:25:32.795
I spin up a ghost relay and I turn it down again the moment I lose interest.

1118
01:25:33.735 --> 01:25:36.315
So anyone running a mint should know this. And,

1119
01:25:37.015 --> 01:25:37.835
that's why

1120
01:25:38.535 --> 01:25:39.675
we had multiple

1121
01:25:40.055 --> 01:25:53.180
situations where we could have had, like, do you want a one click mint on Umbrel? And we could have done that, like, a year ago already, and we already had it basically all set up in Docker containers and so on.

1122
01:25:53.560 --> 01:25:56.460
But we decided against doing that,

1123
01:25:57.160 --> 01:26:06.145
because it allows too many people to run this thing too fast without really properly thinking about whether they wanna keep it up or not. Like, I don't wanna say, like,

1124
01:26:06.685 --> 01:26:13.425
any everyone is, you know, smart and capable enough to figure these things out. Obviously, like, if you feel like you should do it, you should definitely

1125
01:26:14.090 --> 01:26:15.390
try it and do it.

1126
01:26:15.930 --> 01:26:16.830
But making

1127
01:26:17.370 --> 01:26:24.110
it a choice where you don't even have to think about the implications of running it means that's, like, where it becomes irresponsible

1128
01:26:24.490 --> 01:26:27.335
as as a deaf at some point.

1129
01:26:27.715 --> 01:26:28.114
And,

1130
01:26:28.515 --> 01:26:30.695
so we're trying to strike the balance between

1131
01:26:31.475 --> 01:26:44.820
right now, at least, you have to pass the test. You need to be able to you know, in order to install a cache image, you need to able be be able to use a Linux terminal. And I think that that's that's the filter. Right? If you cannot get past that,

1132
01:26:45.199 --> 01:26:46.820
you should not run on it probably.

1133
01:26:47.199 --> 01:26:56.315
And if you can get past that, then it's very easy to do so. Just set up a lightning note. And even if you don't have a lightning note, you can even use a customer back end to run on it And for

1134
01:26:56.695 --> 01:27:02.635
some people that just makes it super easy and fast to spin up on it. And second point I wanna add is

1135
01:27:03.175 --> 01:27:06.235
we have talked only about, like, the general mints

1136
01:27:06.775 --> 01:27:08.235
whose purpose is to

1137
01:27:08.770 --> 01:27:09.750
store Bitcoin

1138
01:27:10.210 --> 01:27:13.990
amounts for the users so that can they can make, like, everyday spending.

1139
01:27:15.010 --> 01:27:16.870
But there's, like, the other

1140
01:27:17.410 --> 01:27:42.770
way of running a mint is to think of a service provider that does only one thing, And that service provider doesn't is not a wallet provider or not a custodian or something, but it's just part of a, like, a back end infrastructure. I wanna make a make a, example to make that more specific. But, what I wanna say first is that running that back end infrastructure, when you run a mint that is integrated into your into your

1141
01:27:44.430 --> 01:27:46.290
own back end, well,

1142
01:27:47.310 --> 01:27:53.985
that's super, super simple. Like, we made Casio so simple, and we're thinking a lot about these people who just wanna

1143
01:27:54.365 --> 01:28:01.560
run, kind of a web service maybe and want to have some kind of money component in the that application that they're running.

1144
01:28:02.120 --> 01:28:06.060
And so, one example I wanna make is the, currently talking to people.

1145
01:28:07.080 --> 01:28:22.995
They're working on, like, a it's a charity platform that runs on Bitcoin, and they're already, like, super successful and doing amazing work. Like, I it's one of my most favorite Bitcoin projects. They basically just collect connect collecting donations and forwarding them to NGOs and so on.

1146
01:28:23.535 --> 01:28:26.435
So, what they wanna do is they want to

1147
01:28:26.815 --> 01:28:31.940
move this thing on Nostra and experiment on Nostra. Like, they want to give the,

1148
01:28:32.340 --> 01:28:38.280
NGO or organization they wanna support. They they wanna give them an NPSAC or say, like, give me an NPSAC, basically,

1149
01:28:38.660 --> 01:28:40.440
and we'll add you to the service.

1150
01:28:41.060 --> 01:28:43.960
And you'll be able to receive Bitcoin donations

1151
01:28:44.655 --> 01:28:46.835
just with your n pop or n sec.

1152
01:28:47.295 --> 01:28:47.795
And

1153
01:28:48.175 --> 01:28:57.635
so one way they can achieve that is by using Cashew, and they they'll be using, like, this, nip 60 and nip 60 1 invention by Pablo,

1154
01:28:59.100 --> 01:28:59.679
where essentially,

1155
01:29:00.460 --> 01:29:07.199
all you need is an NSEG, and that's that's everything you need to to keep your e cash secure with the lost relay.

1156
01:29:07.980 --> 01:29:08.219
And,

1157
01:29:09.659 --> 01:29:12.560
so this project, they want to build a donation site,

1158
01:29:13.225 --> 01:29:20.364
for these projects and works with Mosta, and it works with Ecash, and everything is super cool. But, in their case,

1159
01:29:20.905 --> 01:29:38.300
you know, they they just wanna use a cashier mint as part of their their infrastructure. They're not interested in running a poll and being a customer for many people out there. So I'm thinking a lot about these use cases as well. These use cases are very important. Sometimes I think maybe even more important than creating wallet services

1160
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:42.015
because, the Internet is just completely permeated with,

1161
01:29:43.375 --> 01:29:43.875
accounts

1162
01:29:44.175 --> 01:29:50.515
and balances and, you know, charge your Netflix account by $10 here and then use it here. And

1163
01:29:50.975 --> 01:29:59.230
this is everywhere, and, we want to make it as easy as possible for these services to transition from normal ledger based accounting systems

1164
01:29:59.690 --> 01:30:05.710
to better privacy increased or more user controlled way of offering the same service with eCash.

1165
01:30:07.610 --> 01:30:10.090
Yeah. I mean, just a little side note on that.

1166
01:30:11.210 --> 01:30:11.950
I use

1167
01:30:12.945 --> 01:30:13.445
silent.link

1168
01:30:14.305 --> 01:30:15.045
as my

1169
01:30:15.425 --> 01:30:16.565
my daily driver,

1170
01:30:16.945 --> 01:30:19.045
an eSIM that I pay for with Bitcoin,

1171
01:30:21.025 --> 01:30:21.925
on my phone.

1172
01:30:22.625 --> 01:30:23.125
And

1173
01:30:26.880 --> 01:30:33.140
it it it technically registers as a I guess it's like a Polish IP address or a Polish eSIM.

1174
01:30:34.560 --> 01:30:35.860
And I tried to

1175
01:30:36.800 --> 01:30:38.980
I currently do not have a Netflix account

1176
01:30:39.440 --> 01:30:41.140
because it flagged something.

1177
01:30:41.665 --> 01:30:44.165
And, like, my credit card payments will go through,

1178
01:30:44.625 --> 01:30:47.525
and then Netflix refunds my credit card payments

1179
01:30:47.985 --> 01:30:49.764
and refuses to give me an account.

1180
01:30:51.745 --> 01:30:52.245
So,

1181
01:30:52.945 --> 01:30:55.445
that's something my wife has had to deal with recently.

1182
01:30:56.070 --> 01:31:00.010
I would have told you 2 years of VPN, but I think that doesn't make it much better with Netflix.

1183
01:31:00.790 --> 01:31:17.055
Yeah. I I've there's been different mechanisms. Sometimes I've played them in Polish Zlotzsky's. Sometimes I paid them in US dollars. Like, it's a whole it's a whole kind of mess, and I just didn't give a shit enough to try and get them to take my money. I like it's hilarious. I can

1184
01:31:18.475 --> 01:31:23.455
I'll pay them. I'll get, like, 5 days of usage or something, and then they refund my payment.

1185
01:31:24.820 --> 01:31:28.280
And they're like, no. You're a scam even though I sent them money. But

1186
01:31:28.740 --> 01:31:41.945
I think e cash e cash and and Bitcoin and everything we're working on here can fix the Internet in a big way as a result of that. To go back to the previous comment, yeah, I I'm I'm not necessarily referring to, like, everyone running a mint,

1187
01:31:42.405 --> 01:31:43.465
but just directionally.

1188
01:31:44.005 --> 01:31:46.025
Directionally, the more mints, the better.

1189
01:31:46.325 --> 01:31:47.465
Yep. And particularly

1190
01:31:47.845 --> 01:31:49.864
being able to do so in a relatively

1191
01:31:50.805 --> 01:31:51.864
private way

1192
01:31:52.165 --> 01:31:52.665
without

1193
01:31:53.340 --> 01:31:54.560
cloud services because

1194
01:31:55.500 --> 01:31:58.480
I I think one of the edge cases here that we see is,

1195
01:31:58.940 --> 01:32:01.040
you know, there's just like a centralization

1196
01:32:01.420 --> 01:32:08.320
among a few large mints that are run effectively on on completely docks cloud services where the operator is known.

1197
01:32:09.715 --> 01:32:11.575
And that that could be

1198
01:32:12.435 --> 01:32:15.175
bad for the freedom focused adoption of Kaggle.

1199
01:32:15.555 --> 01:32:25.610
So I I think there are like, in my mind, we have 2 avenues, and we will and we should go both of them at the same time. And one is, you know, the corporate

1200
01:32:26.230 --> 01:32:26.730
mint,

1201
01:32:27.110 --> 01:32:28.890
the, you know, regulated

1202
01:32:29.429 --> 01:32:29.929
entity,

1203
01:32:30.390 --> 01:32:31.130
the company

1204
01:32:32.070 --> 01:32:33.050
that's in

1205
01:32:33.429 --> 01:32:39.795
a western jurisdiction and has a whole bunch of rules and safety and AML and KYC and all that stuff.

1206
01:32:40.755 --> 01:32:41.574
And I think

1207
01:32:42.195 --> 01:32:53.460
they should run Mins because it's better for their users. It respects their users privacy, and those will probably be really safe in terms of rock risk because you have this entity behind and

1208
01:32:53.860 --> 01:32:55.880
or everything is relative, obviously. But,

1209
01:32:56.500 --> 01:32:57.640
so you'll have this

1210
01:32:58.100 --> 01:32:59.239
clear net mint

1211
01:33:00.100 --> 01:33:00.600
world,

1212
01:33:01.540 --> 01:33:02.440
if the technology

1213
01:33:02.980 --> 01:33:10.315
proves itself useful in the highest levels of, you know, application and back ends and so on. But then

1214
01:33:10.695 --> 01:33:13.755
the other branch, and that's the more exciting one, is

1215
01:33:14.455 --> 01:33:15.115
the Cypherpunk

1216
01:33:15.655 --> 01:33:16.155
grassroots

1217
01:33:17.255 --> 01:33:18.315
crypto anarchists

1218
01:33:18.935 --> 01:33:20.475
that run Mints because

1219
01:33:20.855 --> 01:33:23.800
no one else does. And they run Mints because

1220
01:33:24.260 --> 01:33:25.320
they have communities.

1221
01:33:26.260 --> 01:33:27.000
They have,

1222
01:33:28.179 --> 01:33:33.079
friends they wanna serve. They have conferences they wanna run and so on. And

1223
01:33:33.380 --> 01:33:35.800
so Right. I that second

1224
01:33:36.475 --> 01:33:44.175
branch or avenue is way more important, but I think it's also a lot safer bet to bet on because

1225
01:33:44.875 --> 01:33:51.930
there is need. People want to run services. The Internet is a very big place, and more and more people are joining us.

1226
01:33:52.410 --> 01:33:52.910
So,

1227
01:33:54.330 --> 01:34:00.510
we wanna make, like, it as safe as possible for them to run a mint, and, that includes also,

1228
01:34:01.130 --> 01:34:04.350
you know, hiding or respecting the mint operator's privacy.

1229
01:34:04.925 --> 01:34:09.025
In general, like, all in my my development philosophy is

1230
01:34:09.405 --> 01:34:09.905
sometimes

1231
01:34:10.285 --> 01:34:25.550
we have to choose between, you know, especially when designing the protocol, whether we want to keep the Mint more safe or the wallet more safe. Like, there's, like, sometimes specific aspects of the protocol that is, like, you know, when we choose this, then the mint has a harder time to

1232
01:34:26.570 --> 01:34:31.230
remain safe. And if we choose it this way, then the wallet needs to do more to be safe.

1233
01:34:31.585 --> 01:34:36.965
But we always choose the mint sites. Like, we always want to keep the mint as safe as possible.

1234
01:34:37.585 --> 01:34:38.405
Users can

1235
01:34:38.784 --> 01:34:41.684
lose money due to accidents, and there's just one,

1236
01:34:42.065 --> 01:34:42.565
wallet.

1237
01:34:43.184 --> 01:34:47.840
But if something that happens to the mint, well, that's catastrophic. Right? So

1238
01:34:48.140 --> 01:34:49.920
always on the side of the Mint operator,

1239
01:34:50.460 --> 01:34:53.040
always think from the perspective of the Mint operator,

1240
01:34:53.420 --> 01:34:58.080
and always also give them the features and the things that they wish for. Like, I really,

1241
01:34:58.780 --> 01:35:08.375
I'm happy about so much feedback that I'm getting from people who are just running the software and helping us to make it better, including also companies and regulated entities

1242
01:35:08.675 --> 01:35:10.375
who are also interested in running

1243
01:35:10.835 --> 01:35:11.815
e cash infrastructure.

1244
01:35:12.915 --> 01:35:17.660
But they have very specific needs and very specific problems that, like, a random,

1245
01:35:18.360 --> 01:35:20.060
person on the Internet does not.

1246
01:35:21.240 --> 01:35:23.980
I mean, going back to our earlier conversation, they can use,

1247
01:35:25.560 --> 01:35:28.700
UMA or whatever to control who enters and exits.

1248
01:35:29.495 --> 01:35:29.995
Yeah.

1249
01:35:30.615 --> 01:35:36.475
I I wanna, mention maybe one of the features that I've been spending a lot of time with and that's on my mind recently,

1250
01:35:37.015 --> 01:35:38.475
which is blind authentication.

1251
01:35:38.855 --> 01:35:39.095
It,

1252
01:35:39.735 --> 01:35:41.355
it's a good example of,

1253
01:35:42.829 --> 01:35:46.530
how we started building a feature based on feedback.

1254
01:35:47.389 --> 01:35:48.690
So right now,

1255
01:35:49.230 --> 01:36:00.045
basically, when you run a mint, anyone can use a mint. It's just a web service like a website. Right? The website anyone can visit the website. You don't have to log in to a normal website to read the content.

1256
01:36:00.425 --> 01:36:09.325
And it's similar with the with the cashier Mint. You just you spin off the Mint, you connect it to a lightning wallet, and then you're done. There are no sign ups, no registration.

1257
01:36:10.790 --> 01:36:12.330
Any person on the Internet

1258
01:36:12.790 --> 01:36:16.010
could be using the mint, which is great. It's great for anonymity

1259
01:36:16.550 --> 01:36:18.250
because your onset

1260
01:36:18.630 --> 01:36:21.290
is almost like the entire Internet.

1261
01:36:21.590 --> 01:36:24.170
If you if you take away the fact that you're

1262
01:36:24.615 --> 01:36:27.115
sharing your IP address, which you can avoid,

1263
01:36:27.895 --> 01:36:33.335
it means that anyone could be using the Mint right now, and that's that's amazing for privacy and,

1264
01:36:33.815 --> 01:36:37.435
makes also running a cache of it super simple and uncomplicated

1265
01:36:37.895 --> 01:36:39.835
because you have no sign up stuff.

1266
01:36:40.800 --> 01:36:41.300
So,

1267
01:36:42.800 --> 01:36:45.860
I've when especially when talking to

1268
01:36:46.400 --> 01:36:53.119
companies, some companies reached out like, hey. We're looking into e cash, and it's very interesting, but there's a problem. And,

1269
01:36:53.599 --> 01:36:54.500
also another

1270
01:36:55.915 --> 01:36:58.655
same thing was mentioned to me by a Bitcoin,

1271
01:36:59.515 --> 01:37:03.054
physical Bitcoin project, something like your, you know,

1272
01:37:03.515 --> 01:37:12.690
Bitcoin jungle, Bitcoin lake, Bitcoin mountain, Bitcoin beach, and all these different things. Like, it's a similar project to that. And they also wanna run,

1273
01:37:13.170 --> 01:37:23.430
an e cash mint for their community as well as. And this guy told me, like, I would really want to run an e cash mint because I don't want to see the activity of my community.

1274
01:37:23.970 --> 01:37:40.385
Like, I need to run their infrastructure that's clear, but I don't wanna know what they're doing. And that's perfect for e cash. And it's also safer for everyone because there is no honeypot of data that could be stored. But the guy told me, now this is the problem that these entities face, is

1275
01:37:40.920 --> 01:37:53.340
I don't want an eCash Mint for the entire world. Like, I want to be able to control who uses that Mint, actually. And I think it's a very good point, but it's also, I mean, it's also problematic in the sense of privacy

1276
01:37:53.895 --> 01:37:59.355
because you're making the number of potential users smaller, which is always bad bad for privacy.

1277
01:37:59.974 --> 01:38:00.474
However,

1278
01:38:00.934 --> 01:38:11.000
this feature request has been requested many times. It's so it's necessary for a cypherpunk individuals who want to limit the use of their image to only their friends,

1279
01:38:11.380 --> 01:38:13.640
but it's also necessary for many companies

1280
01:38:14.100 --> 01:38:19.000
who want to run e cash infrastructure that make sure that only their user base uses,

1281
01:38:19.940 --> 01:38:21.080
their their service.

1282
01:38:22.260 --> 01:38:29.005
But as we said, it's bad for privacy. So what we came up with and what I've been working on in the last months intensely

1283
01:38:29.625 --> 01:38:31.725
is something called blind authentication.

1284
01:38:32.825 --> 01:38:34.425
So, essentially, what,

1285
01:38:34.825 --> 01:38:46.230
this this feature will allow you to do is to have something like a sign up page for your Mint. That sign up page must be run by yourself, so it's not part of the Cashier Mint itself.

1286
01:38:46.690 --> 01:38:49.990
It could be logged in with anything. Like, imagine log in with Mosta,

1287
01:38:50.450 --> 01:38:53.340
and there's a server where you can log in with Mosta. And,

1288
01:38:54.614 --> 01:39:01.514
obviously, when you do that, you identify yourself. So that's bad for privacy. You go to a server and you say, hey. I met Adele. This is my signature.

1289
01:39:02.454 --> 01:39:03.835
I wanna use the mint.

1290
01:39:04.375 --> 01:39:09.195
Now that's bad. The mint now knows that you're using the mint, but that was

1291
01:39:09.560 --> 01:39:18.300
the original idea. Like, that's what we wanna achieve. But how can we make still make sure that you can use the mint and do mint operations

1292
01:39:18.600 --> 01:39:24.845
without identifying yourself all the time while using the mint? So what we've come up with is called blind authentication,

1293
01:39:25.385 --> 01:39:33.645
and it works the way that you you first sign up to the mint, and we call that clear authentication. You share your data. You you prove that you're a metal dial, for example.

1294
01:39:34.265 --> 01:39:41.989
And then the mint operator says, like, yes. You're mad. You're my friend. You can use the mint. And in exchange for that, you then mint,

1295
01:39:42.770 --> 01:39:47.510
a specific type of ecash token, which we call, like, a blind authentication token.

1296
01:39:47.969 --> 01:39:51.190
It's almost like ecash, but it has no monetary value.

1297
01:39:52.405 --> 01:39:55.225
And, it has the same privacy as e cash.

1298
01:39:55.605 --> 01:40:03.870
So and when you mint these authentic blind authentication tokens, you can use them later to actually use the mint and make payments with the mint.

1299
01:40:04.270 --> 01:40:12.850
So what you do is you sign up with the mint, you identify yourself, and the mint allows you because of that, allows you to mint these privacy preserving access tokens.

1300
01:40:13.230 --> 01:40:27.835
And then you take these privacy preserving access tokens and then and you you actually use them in combination with, you know, when you when you wanna make a payment with the mint or when you create an invoice with the mint or pay a lightning invoice with the mint. So all the operator of the mint

1301
01:40:28.215 --> 01:40:30.474
knows is that you're one of

1302
01:40:30.949 --> 01:40:38.250
the peers registered to use the Mint, but doesn't know which one of those people you are. So we're trying to, you know, strike the balance between

1303
01:40:39.030 --> 01:40:42.250
control of the Mint operator and trying to,

1304
01:40:43.265 --> 01:40:52.245
you know, put them in a situation where they can be sure that only these people use my Mint, but at the same time also protect the user's privacy while still using the Mint,

1305
01:40:52.625 --> 01:41:02.890
so that they cannot be singled out and said, like, oh, this is Matt. You made this transaction. I don't like this transaction, then censor you now. Yeah. That's great. I mean, I just,

1306
01:41:04.310 --> 01:41:06.970
I recently visited Praia Bitcoin in Brazil,

1307
01:41:08.550 --> 01:41:14.650
and I believe they run on Elan Bits right now. And I said to them, I was like, this is, like, the perfect use case for Ecash,

1308
01:41:15.724 --> 01:41:16.704
for their community.

1309
01:41:17.085 --> 01:41:18.385
And that was the main

1310
01:41:18.764 --> 01:41:26.385
that was his main concern. Right? His main concern was I don't wanna I would love to not know the financial activity of my community members,

1311
01:41:27.645 --> 01:41:58.235
but I need to make sure I can I can easily control who actually uses it so it doesn't, you know, go out to the entire world and some random people are using it? That's so funny. Like, I I have that conversation with private Bitcoin, but I had the exact same conversation with another person from another Bitcoin project like that. Like, it's it's a it's it's it's a concern that has been voiced over and over again. And so we're we're we're almost there. We're almost fixed it, and soon you'll be able to also do that with the cashier protocol.

1312
01:41:58.650 --> 01:42:00.910
Wonderful. Yes, sir. I'm on the ground constantly

1313
01:42:01.610 --> 01:42:04.270
speaking the good word of Ecash and Cashew.

1314
01:42:05.450 --> 01:42:05.770
I,

1315
01:42:07.450 --> 01:42:13.905
what was so so right now, I have 2 more topics for you. I know your time is scarce and then we'll wrap.

1316
01:42:14.945 --> 01:42:15.445
But,

1317
01:42:16.304 --> 01:42:22.005
it's always I feel like we can just talk for hours, but we'll have you back in 6 months. We'll do the 6 month cycle. Yep.

1318
01:42:23.264 --> 01:42:26.804
And who knows what the intro clip will be like in 6 months? It's gonna be insane.

1319
01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:31.940
Right now I'm using for zaps on Nasr, I'm using npub.cache,

1320
01:42:34.000 --> 01:42:35.360
which provides me,

1321
01:42:36.719 --> 01:42:41.139
a lightning address. So I have a lightning address that works with the greater lightning network.

1322
01:42:41.895 --> 01:42:43.915
And I'm able to easily access,

1323
01:42:45.415 --> 01:42:54.715
that e cash wallet with just my my nostril credentials. So it makes it very convenient for me. I can just use a nostril extension and sign into m pub.cash.

1324
01:42:55.015 --> 01:42:56.155
So all the zaps

1325
01:42:56.460 --> 01:43:02.560
that we've been receiving from the rider dies today on the stream are actually getting paid directly into,

1326
01:43:03.340 --> 01:43:05.920
an ecash wallet that's provided by npub.cash.

1327
01:43:09.020 --> 01:43:11.040
When I go to redeem those,

1328
01:43:12.895 --> 01:43:13.795
it it

1329
01:43:14.175 --> 01:43:27.155
because of the nature of zaps. Right? Like, some zaps are are quite large. Right? Like, I have like, shout out UTXO in the live chat just zapped 42,000 sats and Moashi zapped 10,000 sats. But then we also have

1330
01:43:27.460 --> 01:43:32.119
Sharp Shader who zapped 21 sats. And so the result is

1331
01:43:32.420 --> 01:43:35.000
the wallet ends up having many, many

1332
01:43:35.780 --> 01:43:39.159
eCash tokens in it of different sizes and denominations.

1333
01:43:39.540 --> 01:43:41.239
So when I go to redeem it,

1334
01:43:43.065 --> 01:43:51.085
it's it it appears to me as a humble user, it appears to me that I'm only able to redeem 1 UTX one one token at a time.

1335
01:43:52.345 --> 01:43:54.925
Do you have any thoughts there? Is there like a

1336
01:43:55.560 --> 01:43:57.340
way for users to combine

1337
01:43:57.640 --> 01:44:00.300
them to make withdrawal easier? Like, how does

1338
01:44:00.680 --> 01:44:15.415
how do can you explain that process a little bit for us? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a that's a good observation and actually a problem that we've been thinking about just recently. So what this service does is basically generates an invoice from the mint that,

1339
01:44:16.355 --> 01:44:23.015
that the service uses. So there will be a mint, and it generates an invoice and serves that invoice as a l n URL

1340
01:44:23.500 --> 01:44:28.219
invoice. So when when anyone pays that invoice, what happens in the background is that this,

1341
01:44:28.540 --> 01:44:30.560
service that n pop dot cash service

1342
01:44:31.020 --> 01:44:33.760
notices that the invoice has been paid and then

1343
01:44:34.060 --> 01:44:38.960
means e cache and puts it aside for you. And then later when you come back online,

1344
01:44:39.395 --> 01:44:43.574
you basically ask the server, hey. So did I get any new ecash while I was offline?

1345
01:44:44.195 --> 01:44:47.015
And the server just gives you the ecash. Now

1346
01:44:47.635 --> 01:44:51.815
because it needs to mint all the ecash for every single payment,

1347
01:44:52.675 --> 01:44:53.574
that you receive,

1348
01:44:54.300 --> 01:44:58.480
it can add up to quite a lot. And it can be kind of unnecessary

1349
01:44:58.860 --> 01:44:59.360
because,

1350
01:44:59.820 --> 01:45:00.320
maybe,

1351
01:45:00.860 --> 01:45:09.955
as you said, maybe it was like a bunch of small 21 set payments. And every time it minted 21 set, it actually used, like,

1352
01:45:10.335 --> 01:45:13.795
3 or 4 e cash proofs in order to get to that amount.

1353
01:45:14.175 --> 01:45:24.869
So you can just, like, see how the number of e cash tokens just keeps growing and growing and growing. And at some point, it will be, you know, just take some time until you download all that e cash from the server, literally.

1354
01:45:25.730 --> 01:45:27.590
So, we have a solution

1355
01:45:27.969 --> 01:45:32.230
for that, which is I mean, it will go into technical details, but, essentially,

1356
01:45:33.034 --> 01:45:36.014
the idea is to not make the the server,

1357
01:45:37.195 --> 01:45:46.574
mint the e cash for you, but the server basically just checks whether the payment has been received and then gives you the ability to mint it when you come back online.

1358
01:45:46.890 --> 01:45:55.070
So that will result in, at first of all, way less back and forth and the server having to mint and then, you know, accumulating

1359
01:45:55.370 --> 01:46:01.469
all those tokens that can then be redeemed all at once. But rather your wallet can decide,

1360
01:46:02.145 --> 01:46:05.045
how many proofs it should mint for that payment.

1361
01:46:05.425 --> 01:46:06.085
And that's

1362
01:46:06.625 --> 01:46:07.125
usually,

1363
01:46:07.745 --> 01:46:09.125
the better choice because

1364
01:46:09.505 --> 01:46:10.245
your wallet

1365
01:46:10.705 --> 01:46:12.325
knows best which

1366
01:46:12.865 --> 01:46:13.365
tokens

1367
01:46:13.760 --> 01:46:17.300
which token amounts it should receive in order to have

1368
01:46:17.760 --> 01:46:19.140
the most efficient

1369
01:46:19.600 --> 01:46:21.060
wallet amount distribution,

1370
01:46:21.360 --> 01:46:21.860
basically.

1371
01:46:22.400 --> 01:46:22.880
But,

1372
01:46:23.360 --> 01:46:31.914
like, long story short, yes, this is something that we're aware of, and I think we have a solution to that that we're kind of started working on right now,

1373
01:46:32.215 --> 01:46:33.914
as I mentioned. Like, with the ability

1374
01:46:34.295 --> 01:46:39.835
of the server not minting it for you, but just giving you the ability to mint it when you come online.

1375
01:46:40.614 --> 01:46:41.114
So,

1376
01:46:41.815 --> 01:46:44.315
is that makes sense to me. But then also

1377
01:46:45.300 --> 01:46:45.800
from

1378
01:46:46.500 --> 01:46:47.800
like a Bitcoin perspective,

1379
01:46:48.179 --> 01:46:48.679
right,

1380
01:46:51.380 --> 01:46:54.199
we have in Bitcoin we have this this

1381
01:46:54.500 --> 01:46:56.360
concept of of UTXOs,

1382
01:46:56.739 --> 01:47:01.155
right, of of of inputs in a transaction. You send a transaction

1383
01:47:01.775 --> 01:47:04.675
and your transaction on the input side might have many inputs

1384
01:47:05.535 --> 01:47:15.960
and to lower your fee burden in the future. What a lot of people do will then they'll take a lot of inputs and they'll, they'll send them to themselves. Right? And they'll send them to themselves and it will result in one larger

1385
01:47:16.500 --> 01:47:20.120
output. Now that has privacy implications on Bitcoin.

1386
01:47:21.460 --> 01:47:30.035
Is there, is there some technique there with e cash or with Cashew to do something similar where on the wallet side, the user

1387
01:47:30.335 --> 01:47:38.355
basically just combines a bunch of tokens into 1 bigger token after the fact? Or Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It works the same way. So,

1388
01:47:39.535 --> 01:47:40.675
the one restriction

1389
01:47:41.215 --> 01:47:50.640
with Cashew is that not every amount is possible, like with the Bitcoin UTXO. Bitcoin UTXO can have any possible amount. We don't want that in Cashew because,

1390
01:47:51.180 --> 01:47:56.994
to keep the number of different amounts low is critical for for privacy and the unknown set. But given

1391
01:47:57.375 --> 01:48:01.554
that, you it works basically exactly the same way. You can think of

1392
01:48:02.094 --> 01:48:04.114
a unspent ecash token like UTXO,

1393
01:48:04.815 --> 01:48:12.700
and you can take all many of them, put them into a single transaction as inputs, and then define outputs with new amounts and new amount distribution.

1394
01:48:13.160 --> 01:48:13.480
And,

1395
01:48:14.680 --> 01:48:22.220
so you can do that. Your cash reward will do that when you have, like, a if you have a cash reward with, let's say, 1,000 of 1 set tokens

1396
01:48:22.760 --> 01:48:23.900
and you make one

1397
01:48:24.614 --> 01:48:25.914
1,000 set transaction,

1398
01:48:26.215 --> 01:48:38.460
send it to yourself and receive it, then you'll end up with way less tokens that you that you signed with. So it does exactly the same thing as a Bitcoin wallet at the end of the day, managing the UTXOs and the amounts.

1399
01:48:40.300 --> 01:48:53.200
But, we will also see fees happening more and more. So since the last time we met, I was back then working heavily, like, on the fee implementation and allowing main operators to also charge a fee for input.

1400
01:48:53.935 --> 01:48:59.554
That's because their database keeps growing with the number of ecash tokens that they process over time.

1401
01:49:00.094 --> 01:49:03.715
So, there needs to be some cost offsets that is proportional

1402
01:49:04.175 --> 01:49:22.560
to the cost of the Mint. And in this case, it will be paid with e cash fees. And at the end of the day, e cash users will have the same concerns, concerns as Bitcoin users, but only with a fraction of the cost, basically. And the concern will be, how do I keep the number of e cash tokens

1403
01:49:23.095 --> 01:49:27.435
kind of as minimal as possible so that my fees remain as low as possible?

1404
01:49:28.775 --> 01:49:32.155
That's the price for anonymity. Like, if you want to,

1405
01:49:32.935 --> 01:49:33.435
make

1406
01:49:34.455 --> 01:49:36.315
a privacy preserving system

1407
01:49:37.800 --> 01:49:38.300
sustainable,

1408
01:49:38.840 --> 01:49:41.820
then you need to charge fees for the amount of

1409
01:49:42.199 --> 01:49:47.739
data and costs incurred. And in the case of e cash, it's pretty much the same way

1410
01:49:48.440 --> 01:49:51.179
of computing that cost, like, with Bitcoin.

1411
01:49:51.535 --> 01:50:00.915
It's, like, based on data size, not the amount of money you're sending. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Is there is there a privacy concern to combining all those

1412
01:50:01.295 --> 01:50:06.515
inputs or parts? I should have commented on that as well. So way way less than in Bitcoin

1413
01:50:07.050 --> 01:50:11.150
because, the the, you know, the magic thing about e cash is

1414
01:50:11.610 --> 01:50:12.110
first,

1415
01:50:12.570 --> 01:50:14.190
you know, I should start with Bitcoin.

1416
01:50:14.650 --> 01:50:20.430
With Bitcoin, you have UTXOs and you have transactions. And when you send, like, a bunch of UTXOs inside a transaction,

1417
01:50:20.810 --> 01:50:27.965
they kind of like, they got they get molten into a single thing, and then they split up back into a bunch of UTXOs.

1418
01:50:28.505 --> 01:50:38.204
And we call that the transaction graph. So you see what's going in. You see what's going out. And now the problem with this is that if you then spent

1419
01:50:38.580 --> 01:50:43.960
the outputs of that transaction, like these new UTXOs that you've created, if you spent them again,

1420
01:50:44.500 --> 01:50:56.025
they're again as well connected to the very first UTXOs that you put in in the beginning. So everything is connected to everything in Bitcoin, and everyone can see all connections. That's what makes coin consolidation

1421
01:50:56.645 --> 01:50:57.864
so bad because,

1422
01:50:58.165 --> 01:51:01.065
first of all, your docs that you have all these UTXOs.

1423
01:51:02.085 --> 01:51:11.590
But even worse is from that moment on, you make it way easier to track everything that you do from that day on. That's like the forward privacy basically

1424
01:51:12.050 --> 01:51:12.790
is terrible,

1425
01:51:13.889 --> 01:51:14.389
unfortunately.

1426
01:51:15.730 --> 01:51:16.869
This is a real concern.

1427
01:51:17.315 --> 01:51:29.310
And with eCash, you have the second point, it doesn't exist. With eCash, you have no transaction graph. So once you make one transaction, an eCash transaction, and you can then use the outputs of the transaction to with

1428
01:51:29.870 --> 01:51:31.650
for any other transaction later,

1429
01:51:31.950 --> 01:51:43.010
but there is no graph between them. There is no connection between the outputs of one transaction and the inputs of the next transaction. So you can consolidate as much as you want. The mint only sees that a certain

1430
01:51:43.645 --> 01:51:48.705
amount has been spent and a certain number of UTX also has been spent and the outputs,

1431
01:51:49.725 --> 01:52:00.470
look like this. But when you later spend these outputs again, they don't they look nothing like the outputs, of the previous transaction. So you you have no transaction graph, which means that,

1432
01:52:01.090 --> 01:52:14.195
you you may lose privacy for a single transaction. But once you are over with that single transaction, you're back to basically perfect transit privacy again. That's the nice thing about e cash. You can fuck up your your privacy because you make a mistake.

1433
01:52:14.495 --> 01:52:17.955
But in order to fix your privacy, you just make one transaction and you're good.

1434
01:52:18.815 --> 01:52:32.490
Got it. Yeah. That may so it's not in practice, it's not really that much of a privacy risk. I I I imagine it'd be bigger privacy risk if there's less users of a mint. Oh, yes. People making these types of Yep. Consolidating.

1435
01:52:33.750 --> 01:52:34.250
Privacy

1436
01:52:35.110 --> 01:52:40.965
is your the ability of an observer to distinguish you from your unknown set.

1437
01:52:41.445 --> 01:52:42.744
And so these are all

1438
01:52:43.205 --> 01:52:44.185
topics and,

1439
01:52:44.885 --> 01:52:47.784
words that we have used in in today's episode already.

1440
01:52:48.165 --> 01:52:49.385
But, essentially,

1441
01:52:49.844 --> 01:53:12.045
the more people use the mint, the larger the anonymity set because the the larger the number of people that you can be confused with. That's the that's the goal. Like, you want to look like everyone else. What do they say? Like, no. That's a different saying, but it still it still applies partially. That's like no one is watching and encrypt like everyone is. Right. And the point in encryption

1442
01:53:12.425 --> 01:53:18.445
and, privacy in general is to make everyone look the same such that no one can be singled out.

1443
01:53:18.905 --> 01:53:19.405
So

1444
01:53:20.025 --> 01:53:21.324
should should wallets

1445
01:53:22.025 --> 01:53:30.100
do you wanna see front ends that have, like, a combine button? Like, should I have, like, a easy combine button in cashew. Me that I just click and

1446
01:53:30.880 --> 01:53:48.955
No. The the wallet does that for you already. Like, cashew. Me does that already for you. You just While I'm making transactions. It's just doing it on the back end. While you're receiving and sending money, the wallet always calculates, like, what's the best next distribution that I should have and it tries to achieve that. So if you receive, like, a a 1,000

1447
01:53:49.335 --> 01:53:50.635
tokens from npap.cash,

1448
01:53:52.135 --> 01:53:58.679
you will have a transaction with, like, 1,000 inputs, but the outputs will be, let's say, only 8 outputs or so. So,

1449
01:53:59.300 --> 01:54:02.760
it will reduce the number of outputs all the time as much as possible

1450
01:54:03.380 --> 01:54:03.880
because,

1451
01:54:04.340 --> 01:54:04.840
eventually,

1452
01:54:05.140 --> 01:54:13.934
you, you know it also tries to be smart about the future because you'll you'll have to pay fees at some point when the fees are turned on. So if end users are using

1453
01:54:14.875 --> 01:54:22.175
a competent wallet, they'd all everything we just discussed, they just don't even have to think about in practice. Yeah. Yeah. That's the goal. Like, none of that. This is all just academic,

1454
01:54:22.715 --> 01:54:24.894
intellectual exercise for the interested,

1455
01:54:25.390 --> 01:54:27.010
listener. A normal user

1456
01:54:27.550 --> 01:54:31.730
won't have anything to do with these questions. They just send and receive and everything is,

1457
01:54:32.190 --> 01:54:32.690
automated.

1458
01:54:33.230 --> 01:54:37.330
Awesome. Before we get to my last topic, I see a comment from Musashi

1459
01:54:37.630 --> 01:54:39.070
in the live chat,

1460
01:54:39.875 --> 01:54:49.735
that I'm I'm curious as well. If if you restore a wallet with cashew. Me, like, using the seed words, can you run 2 different instances of the same wallet?

1461
01:54:50.355 --> 01:54:50.855
Yeah.

1462
01:54:51.235 --> 01:54:51.735
So

1463
01:54:52.435 --> 01:54:56.079
this will be this will be a, like, a, PTSD

1464
01:54:57.179 --> 01:55:00.239
inducing question for Bitcoin on chain wallet. That's

1465
01:55:00.780 --> 01:55:06.480
because it's the same issue with, Bitcoin on chain wallet. So the issue is if you have a Bitcoin wallet

1466
01:55:06.855 --> 01:55:24.570
and a seed phrase and you import that seed phrase in a different wallet and then you use both wallets at the same time, you're fucked. Like, it's you're you're not fucked, but your wallets will think like what's going on. You don't lose money, but, like, the interface starts getting junky and doesn't show the right balances. Yeah. It it starts glitching because, like, how

1467
01:55:25.769 --> 01:55:42.895
the one wallet doesn't know about the other wallet, and, like, they're now working with the same money, basically, and doing their own thing. So, so to come to the to the answer to that question, right now in cash. Me, when you open the wallet, it generates a seed phrase for you. And then you do have an op you have an option

1468
01:55:43.275 --> 01:55:50.690
to restore from a seed phrase, where you have to enter a seed phrase as well. So when you go to that screen and you enter the seed phrase to restore e cash,

1469
01:55:51.070 --> 01:55:52.690
it restores to your

1470
01:55:53.230 --> 01:55:58.849
current seed phrase. So it doesn't use 2 seed phrases at the same time. You can only enter a seed phrase to restore

1471
01:55:59.150 --> 01:56:02.475
the coins from that seed phrase. But once you use the coins,

1472
01:56:03.095 --> 01:56:09.195
they are not bound to that seed phrase anymore. They become bound to the actual seed phrase of the wallet. So,

1473
01:56:10.135 --> 01:56:19.050
you don't run into this issue where you could have 2 wallets with the same seed phrase on 2 different devices and, you know, produce these problems of,

1474
01:56:19.830 --> 01:56:20.330
inconsistencies.

1475
01:56:21.750 --> 01:56:22.310
Are you

1476
01:56:23.030 --> 01:56:25.050
yeah. I thought that was what the answer was.

1477
01:56:25.355 --> 01:56:30.015
Are you are you working on some kind of solution for multi instance? Like just an example,

1478
01:56:30.635 --> 01:56:33.534
like my dad, I've gotten my whole family on to signal

1479
01:56:35.915 --> 01:56:43.550
and and the the key way I did that was that was the only way they were gonna get baby photos. But like a major blocker for him for a while was that

1480
01:56:44.010 --> 01:56:46.510
you couldn't use signal on iPad

1481
01:56:47.050 --> 01:56:51.390
and on, like for whatever reason people just expect to have

1482
01:56:51.930 --> 01:56:54.030
like multi device same instances

1483
01:56:54.505 --> 01:56:55.885
support. Is that untenable

1484
01:56:56.265 --> 01:57:00.525
on Casio, or is there a way to do it? You just haven't figured it out yet.

1485
01:57:01.225 --> 01:57:06.125
I think that's one of the hardest questions and the most important questions actually

1486
01:57:06.425 --> 01:57:08.280
going forward in terms of UX

1487
01:57:08.599 --> 01:57:12.539
is you want the same money on multiple devices, and it's

1488
01:57:12.920 --> 01:57:15.659
so much harder than you than you can imagine.

1489
01:57:17.000 --> 01:57:22.619
So one way of doing that, and that's actually, you know, goes to credits go to Pablo,

1490
01:57:23.074 --> 01:57:30.135
is NIP 60. And it's so cool to say that, like, the closest thing of to achieving that, to have the same

1491
01:57:30.514 --> 01:57:32.935
wallet on 2 different devices

1492
01:57:33.635 --> 01:57:51.300
is using synchronization of that wallet using Nostra. Right now it's nip 60. And with nip 60, you essentially store your e cash on a nostril relay, and that becomes the source of truth. So you have these 2 wallets that just subscribe to events on a nostril relay. And when you receive money,

1493
01:57:51.755 --> 01:58:01.375
both of them get an event and get the new e cash in. And when you send money, both of them get an event and get the e cash out. And so you can try to synchronize them at the same time.

1494
01:58:02.074 --> 01:58:19.445
To be completely precise, like, if you have 2 wallets racing each other and trying to spend the same e cash at the same time, like, one of them will fail and the other one will succeed because they might not have been able to synchronize exactly on the lock and exactly at the time. But, like, who cares? There's just one error.

1495
01:58:19.825 --> 01:58:25.285
The wallet can recover from that error, and everything is okay. So I think we're getting to a place where this becomes

1496
01:58:25.665 --> 01:58:30.065
more and more possible. I think, we haven't talked about NIP 60 a lot,

1497
01:58:30.385 --> 01:58:37.090
today. It's one of the coolest things. I think it's a huge, huge important improvement for UX on on Nasdaq.

1498
01:58:37.470 --> 01:58:44.290
It allows you to build Nasdaq wallets without any additional software. You can just have the same wallet and the same money

1499
01:58:44.910 --> 01:58:46.210
connected to your NSEK

1500
01:58:46.625 --> 01:58:52.485
from every device that you log in, and that make you know, sounds a lot like the problem that we've been just talking about.

1501
01:58:55.105 --> 01:58:55.605
But

1502
01:58:56.145 --> 01:59:06.810
I think there's still, like, the major issue in this approach, and it's a hard one to crack, is that, you know, your ecash wallet is can be a significant

1503
01:59:07.110 --> 01:59:12.570
amount of data at some point. Like, there is most ecash wallets will be less than 1 megabyte in size,

1504
01:59:12.965 --> 01:59:17.144
but some of them will be 10 megabytes in size because they're, like, super popular

1505
01:59:17.525 --> 01:59:18.025
podcast

1506
01:59:18.405 --> 01:59:23.945
host like you are, and they get a bunch of zaps on m pop.cash, and then the wallet size grows substantially.

1507
01:59:24.485 --> 01:59:24.985
And

1508
01:59:25.489 --> 01:59:26.949
that can be problematic.

1509
01:59:27.250 --> 01:59:34.230
You know, wallets try to be smart about it, as I told you, but if they're not, you still have to deal with that e cash somehow.

1510
01:59:34.850 --> 01:59:36.070
So how do you synchronize

1511
01:59:36.449 --> 01:59:42.175
wallets? And 10 megabytes, like, that's, you know, that's the that's the threshold where it becomes super annoying.

1512
01:59:42.635 --> 01:59:56.750
One megabyte is maybe something where you can you can still tolerate it with a smartphone. You have 2 smartphones. Every time you open the app, it takes you, like, 1 megabyte download to get the latest data to eCash Wallet. Maybe that's okay.

1513
01:59:57.210 --> 01:59:58.110
You could argue

1514
01:59:58.490 --> 01:59:59.310
it is not.

1515
02:00:00.650 --> 02:00:01.150
Now,

1516
02:00:02.490 --> 02:00:07.550
so the problem is you always have many eCash tokens. And,

1517
02:00:08.014 --> 02:00:15.795
fortunately, there is one way to solve this, and it's like the most sci fi project that we work on in Cashew.

1518
02:00:16.574 --> 02:00:17.454
And it's called,

1519
02:00:17.855 --> 02:00:21.155
any amount ecash or anonymous amount ecash.

1520
02:00:21.510 --> 02:00:24.650
Sometimes all called blinded amount e cash. And

1521
02:00:25.590 --> 02:00:26.090
so,

1522
02:00:26.550 --> 02:00:27.050
I,

1523
02:00:28.150 --> 02:00:35.690
the way, this is I can explain this is, you know, you have to remember what I said before. The reason why we have e cash with multiple

1524
02:00:36.150 --> 02:00:36.650
different

1525
02:00:37.114 --> 02:00:37.614
denominations

1526
02:00:38.395 --> 02:00:40.735
and do different amounts, like, with 1 set,

1527
02:00:41.275 --> 02:00:44.955
2, 4, 8, 16, 32, and so on, but not every

1528
02:00:45.355 --> 02:01:03.829
every amount is possible. Only these specific amounts are possible, and then you combine any amount with these building blocks. And the reason we do that is for privacy, as I said. We want to keep the unknown set high. We want to look like anyone who has 32 sets, and that makes the privacy great of owning 32 set tokens.

1529
02:01:04.835 --> 02:01:07.495
Now you could solve all these issues with having

1530
02:01:07.875 --> 02:01:16.855
many tokens and having to synchronize a lot of data. If you just say, fuck it. I don't care about privacy. I want e cash tokens with every possible amount.

1531
02:01:17.170 --> 02:01:23.110
And then you suddenly your wallet becomes a lot simpler. It's just like one single knot. It's a one single token.

1532
02:01:23.570 --> 02:01:30.995
And when you receive a a new e cash token, you just add it to the knot and you end up with, again, just one single

1533
02:01:31.534 --> 02:01:38.755
knot. But the problem is it has a very specific amount. Like, it would be visible that, you know, there is one user who has

1534
02:01:39.135 --> 02:01:39.635
3,526

1535
02:01:40.735 --> 02:01:41.235
sets,

1536
02:01:41.695 --> 02:01:44.995
and now he received 12 sets. Now he has 3,520

1537
02:01:45.900 --> 02:01:52.400
6 +12 sets. So it's super easy to track the wallet if you allow any specific amount.

1538
02:01:53.020 --> 02:01:55.040
So we have privacy

1539
02:01:55.820 --> 02:01:59.360
balanced against efficiency in this example, classical conundrum,

1540
02:01:59.705 --> 02:02:03.885
and we chose privacy because that's what e cash is good for.

1541
02:02:04.185 --> 02:02:04.745
Right? And,

1542
02:02:05.545 --> 02:02:14.460
we we suffer a lot on efficiency, meaning that we end up with wallets that can be 1 megabyte in size, sometimes 10 megabyte in size just to keep their privacy intact.

1543
02:02:15.340 --> 02:02:16.239
So this is

1544
02:02:16.540 --> 02:02:17.680
all a big issue.

1545
02:02:18.380 --> 02:02:22.880
Now, you know, 1 megabyte is tolerable, but once you wanna go,

1546
02:02:23.420 --> 02:02:28.560
like, into the web and you want an ecash wallet inside every website that you visit,

1547
02:02:28.940 --> 02:02:40.075
maybe you want it just to be a small JavaScript applet that is just 30 kilobytes or something to load. Like, that's what you need to achieve in order to permeate the entire web. You you need tiny

1548
02:02:40.615 --> 02:02:42.990
wallets in order to permeate the web.

1549
02:02:43.470 --> 02:02:47.970
But you cannot do that, if you want to uphold privacy as I said. Fortunately,

1550
02:02:48.350 --> 02:02:50.370
there's a science fiction method called

1551
02:02:50.830 --> 02:02:52.830
kvac or, you know,

1552
02:02:53.630 --> 02:02:56.450
it's also part of the signal protocol, and it's

1553
02:02:56.775 --> 02:03:00.075
finally, it's the ecash system used in Wabi Sabi.

1554
02:03:01.735 --> 02:03:07.675
Wabi Sabi itself, the coin joint protocol uses something very similar to e cash, and they have the same exact problem.

1555
02:03:08.055 --> 02:03:09.175
Like, they need to,

1556
02:03:09.575 --> 02:03:23.969
basically be able to hide the amounts. And maybe, you know, the listeners will remember at some point, Wabi Sabi said, hey. Now you can coinjoin any amount that you want with us. You know? Previously, they had just very fixed amounts like 0.1 Bitcoin or 0.01

1557
02:03:24.270 --> 02:03:30.905
Bitcoin or something. Like, only those specific amounts. And then at some point, they transitioned into any amount protocol.

1558
02:03:31.365 --> 02:03:34.905
And the way they could achieve this while still remaining privacy

1559
02:03:35.365 --> 02:03:36.745
was blinded amounts.

1560
02:03:37.205 --> 02:03:43.410
Now, I know this, my my monologue has been going on for quite some time, but bear with me because this is super interesting.

1561
02:03:44.590 --> 02:03:48.370
So anonymous amount, e cash works the same way as,

1562
02:03:49.150 --> 02:03:54.210
liquid confidential transactions work or also transactions on Monero work.

1563
02:03:54.804 --> 02:03:59.945
And the way these transactions work on confidential transactions on mid and liquid, for example, is

1564
02:04:00.324 --> 02:04:02.025
you can make a liquid transaction

1565
02:04:02.724 --> 02:04:25.025
where, you can hide what the input amounts to the transaction is and what the outputs amount of the transaction is. You can make a transaction that looks like something is going in and something is going out, but no one sees what's going in and what's going out. And the way everyone verifies the transaction, like, basically basically make sure that you don't print e cash out of or,

1566
02:04:26.065 --> 02:04:31.205
sorry, liquid BTC out of thin air, is that you provide a zero knowledge proof

1567
02:04:31.585 --> 02:04:33.765
that the inputs equals the outputs.

1568
02:04:34.080 --> 02:04:36.340
So, basically, you post an encrypted transaction

1569
02:04:36.880 --> 02:04:43.699
that doesn't have amounts in them, and you also produce a zero knowledge proof that says, like, I won't tell you the amounts,

1570
02:04:44.159 --> 02:04:56.074
but I can prove to you that the amounts that I put in are the same amounts that I put out. And that's enough to validate the transaction. Now we know that you didn't print money out of thin air. We can validate the transaction. Everything is fine.

1571
02:04:56.855 --> 02:04:58.315
And we're trying to do something

1572
02:04:58.695 --> 02:05:08.489
similar with Cashew. This is a huge project that has been ongoing for a long time, and Tom is the major contributor. Cashew, therefore, is amazingly talented

1573
02:05:08.949 --> 02:05:33.170
and, crazy good hacker. And he's working on this, basically, implementing this wabi sabi style protocol into Cashew such that we can, have amount blinded e cash at some point. And once we have amount blinded e cash, we can build e cash wallets that have one single knot. And that will be they will be so simple to work with because everything will get better once we have that.

1574
02:05:33.949 --> 02:05:46.695
An ecash wallet will have just a constant size. It will be one single token. And whenever you receive tokens, you will just add on to that one single token, and that will grow and shrink as you make and receive payments.

1575
02:05:47.075 --> 02:05:54.535
And the only reason we can do that is because we we will be able to blind the amounts. Otherwise, we couldn't justify

1576
02:05:54.915 --> 02:05:56.855
that because it will destroy your privacy.

1577
02:05:57.155 --> 02:05:58.295
But once you combine

1578
02:05:58.780 --> 02:06:09.120
the amount line with nature of that, you can make super efficient tiny cash wallets with a single knot. And also on top of that, you know, it's even better than with confidential transactions

1579
02:06:09.500 --> 02:06:12.880
where for confidential transaction on liquid

1580
02:06:13.365 --> 02:06:15.305
and also in parts also Monero,

1581
02:06:15.605 --> 02:06:20.505
you although you hide the amounts, you don't hide the transaction graph. You still see who's sending,

1582
02:06:21.205 --> 02:06:28.970
money to whom or which UTX always destroyed and which UTX also are generated, but you hide the amounts. With e cash,

1583
02:06:29.990 --> 02:06:32.250
with confidential amounts and e cash,

1584
02:06:32.950 --> 02:06:37.770
you can basically hide the amount and hide the transaction graph, and it will be just

1585
02:06:38.150 --> 02:06:42.890
it will be crazy insane. I think it will be a true innovation actually because this

1586
02:06:43.315 --> 02:06:46.775
hasn't been achieved yet in the e cash space, so to say,

1587
02:06:47.155 --> 02:06:54.615
and we'll be, you know, we'll be enjoying the latest and greatest e cash tech in in the Bitcoin space because of that. So That's that's badass.

1588
02:06:55.200 --> 02:07:18.885
So then you you have you have hyper efficiency while you still have the privacy guarantees. And then to the multi instance question, we could then store those hyper efficient wallets on a couple relays maybe just in case 1 or 2 relays goes down and you can have multi instance. It will be instant, and the storage cost will be none because it will be, like, 32 bytes that you store on e k on a not the relay, and that's that's your entire one. So

1589
02:07:20.965 --> 02:07:30.670
I mean, what is the timeline on that? Do you think by the next time you're on the show, in 6 months, we'll have that? Or In 6 months, we'll have a prototype. But what we want to do is to

1590
02:07:31.130 --> 02:07:34.030
really integrate this into the cash support, such that everyone

1591
02:07:34.490 --> 02:07:38.865
can then choose inside the cash wallet maybe to, you know, go into that,

1592
02:07:40.225 --> 02:07:41.045
any amount

1593
02:07:41.425 --> 02:07:44.405
pool and then switch back and forth. I think both approaches

1594
02:07:44.785 --> 02:07:58.960
will need to exist side by side because one is much easier and simpler in terms of cryptography. That's the OG cash flow. That's just so simple. That's like left curve. I I need e cash. This is the way. And then we'll have the right curve,

1595
02:08:00.300 --> 02:08:01.679
PhD in cryptography

1596
02:08:02.140 --> 02:08:04.239
kind of hidden amount crazy

1597
02:08:04.845 --> 02:08:05.345
efficient,

1598
02:08:05.885 --> 02:08:08.225
e cash system that is hard to understand, but,

1599
02:08:08.925 --> 02:08:11.665
amazing to work with. So then yeah.

1600
02:08:12.445 --> 02:08:12.945
Sorry.

1601
02:08:15.325 --> 02:08:25.520
You you know, you're your own you're you're your own worst enemy in terms of trying to keep this rip tight because your answers then run my brain and then I ask more questions based on them.

1602
02:08:27.740 --> 02:08:33.760
So to the fee conversation we had earlier, presumably that this any amount, blinded amount

1603
02:08:34.995 --> 02:08:37.655
version would have significantly less fees than

1604
02:08:38.435 --> 02:08:39.574
the the current.

1605
02:08:39.875 --> 02:08:51.020
It will have a a lot less fees, and it will be way cheaper to run them in for as a consequence to that. Like, the fees will you you you might probably get away with 0 fees at that point because,

1606
02:08:51.720 --> 02:08:55.180
you basically just have to make sure that not the same person is trying to

1607
02:08:55.800 --> 02:08:59.260
spam the server at this point. Like, you barely save anything.

1608
02:08:59.880 --> 02:09:07.995
Single transaction just leaves, let's say, 32 bytes imprint on you. So that's like That's insane. Infinite amount of transactions.

1609
02:09:09.575 --> 02:09:10.795
Badass. Okay.

1610
02:09:12.695 --> 02:09:14.075
Fucking awesome conversation.

1611
02:09:14.455 --> 02:09:15.595
So my last topic,

1612
02:09:16.280 --> 02:09:20.380
because I can't let you escape without having this conversation every fucking time,

1613
02:09:21.080 --> 02:09:25.820
is you said 2 things about this topic. 1, you said on seal dispatch, you said,

1614
02:09:27.240 --> 02:09:30.255
I'm not gonna stop using x because I still need it.

1615
02:09:30.975 --> 02:09:39.235
And then another comment you made on Noster, and you said, I don't use Noster to support Noster. I use Noster because this is my natural habitat.

1616
02:09:41.295 --> 02:09:42.594
You know, I I

1617
02:09:42.895 --> 02:09:45.475
I tend to very much relate to the latter,

1618
02:09:46.260 --> 02:09:50.199
and I also kind of relate to the former. Like, I respect if you feel you need x,

1619
02:09:51.059 --> 02:09:55.719
but I got to the point where I felt I didn't need it anymore, and I was willing to make an ideological

1620
02:09:56.020 --> 02:09:56.520
move,

1621
02:09:57.460 --> 02:10:02.375
away from a platform that I couldn't support with my content anymore and my usage.

1622
02:10:03.875 --> 02:10:10.855
What is your opinion on current the current state of Nostra adoption where we are right now? Like, how how do you think about

1623
02:10:12.515 --> 02:10:13.335
that ecosystem?

1624
02:10:14.860 --> 02:10:17.200
I think my perspective doesn't doesn't

1625
02:10:17.580 --> 02:10:18.080
reflect,

1626
02:10:18.540 --> 02:10:23.360
everyone's, like, the large portion of users. That's why, like, that's my my disclaimer.

1627
02:10:23.660 --> 02:10:40.495
My preferences are probably not compatible with most people. So my preference is the following. As I said, I hate social media in general. Like, I don't wanna be part of social media. It sucks the lifeblood out of you, and it makes all the people on the planet enemies of each other because

1628
02:10:40.875 --> 02:11:01.415
idealizes the other side and just perpetuates anger and so on. Like, it's a full on hardcore propaganda machine that has been built by a hyper capitalist Silicon Valley to mind control you and make you hate everyone and stay addicted to it. Like, that's my little rant. I'm only on social media for Bitcoin. So,

1629
02:11:02.275 --> 02:11:03.655
that's why I can

1630
02:11:04.195 --> 02:11:06.375
I I think, like, x is still

1631
02:11:06.755 --> 02:11:11.094
kind of bearable for me because I limit myself to Bitcoin only and try to

1632
02:11:12.170 --> 02:11:24.030
ignore everything else? The reason why I'm on X is very simple. It's, like, egoistic in that sense is that I need to reach more people with the tech that I'm building, and I want to reach as many people as possible.

1633
02:11:24.535 --> 02:11:28.635
And I also want to break out of echo chambers and maybe reach people,

1634
02:11:29.335 --> 02:11:33.675
that aren't already in my echo chamber. Now coming to Nostra,

1635
02:11:33.975 --> 02:11:35.035
for me, Nostra,

1636
02:11:36.215 --> 02:11:36.795
I think,

1637
02:11:37.260 --> 02:11:42.080
like, let's be I I wanna be, like, perfectly honest on this. I've been a bit disappointed

1638
02:11:42.540 --> 02:11:47.280
with the growth of Nostar in terms of when it compares itself to

1639
02:11:47.740 --> 02:11:51.040
other networks and just in terms of the number of people.

1640
02:11:53.195 --> 02:11:54.335
But, saying that,

1641
02:11:55.195 --> 02:11:56.175
I'm completely,

1642
02:11:56.554 --> 02:11:57.054
like,

1643
02:11:57.434 --> 02:12:00.895
fine with that personally because I don't need other people.

1644
02:12:01.835 --> 02:12:06.720
I'm not I'm not looking for a place in Nasdaq. I'm not looking for a place

1645
02:12:07.180 --> 02:12:09.920
where just I can talk to anyone

1646
02:12:10.780 --> 02:12:11.280
anywhere.

1647
02:12:11.820 --> 02:12:14.480
I'm looking for a place to be with my Bitcoin buddies,

1648
02:12:14.860 --> 02:12:25.485
and I want to be with my Bitcoin buddies in a place that's not controlled by Elon or whoever it is, who whoever is your current dictator of today, basically.

1649
02:12:26.025 --> 02:12:27.804
Like, for and for that,

1650
02:12:28.185 --> 02:12:29.725
you know, that use case,

1651
02:12:30.185 --> 02:12:41.470
Nostra, for me, perfect is is basically perfect. What I would wish for is more Bitcoiners to join Nostra, and that's it. Like, personally, I don't get anything else or more from it.

1652
02:12:42.250 --> 02:12:43.790
Now setting that aside,

1653
02:12:44.345 --> 02:13:00.045
I am looking also, you know, last couple of days, everyone has been talking about blue sky and, you know, we don't need to talk about x. I think x is just fucked up and everyone who is there hates it, and that that tells you a lot about, the place itself.

1654
02:13:00.800 --> 02:13:01.300
But,

1655
02:13:02.080 --> 02:13:07.860
still, like with Nostra, although we don't have the user numbers, the tech we have is amazing.

1656
02:13:08.240 --> 02:13:10.340
It's just there is nothing even

1657
02:13:10.800 --> 02:13:11.300
closely

1658
02:13:11.680 --> 02:13:22.475
comparable to it. I I've looked at repositories of Blue Sky tools and so on, like, what they've been building. It's all a bunch of complicated stuff, and it's not just, you know,

1659
02:13:23.015 --> 02:13:28.315
d gen built it in one day, and for some reason, it works kind of,

1660
02:13:30.239 --> 02:13:32.659
development as we have in most. And I think,

1661
02:13:33.440 --> 02:13:40.820
that's just because of the design of most. And maybe also the people that it attracts, but most is so simple

1662
02:13:41.679 --> 02:13:42.179
that,

1663
02:13:42.825 --> 02:13:46.205
I'm not concerned about its existence.

1664
02:13:46.505 --> 02:13:48.125
It's just too useful

1665
02:13:48.425 --> 02:13:50.765
to not be of use. And

1666
02:13:51.545 --> 02:13:55.405
even if the social aspect of Nostra doesn't grow,

1667
02:13:55.865 --> 02:13:56.365
like,

1668
02:13:56.745 --> 02:13:57.245
exponentially

1669
02:13:57.705 --> 02:13:58.205
as,

1670
02:13:58.610 --> 02:14:00.470
you know, some people would want.

1671
02:14:01.410 --> 02:14:04.310
Even if the trolls troves of users,

1672
02:14:05.490 --> 02:14:07.190
these days go to,

1673
02:14:07.810 --> 02:14:12.470
blue sky with 1,000,000 new users per day, whereas Nostra still creeps around,

1674
02:14:13.185 --> 02:14:16.645
I don't know, 10,000 active pub keys per day or something.

1675
02:14:18.225 --> 02:14:18.885
I think

1676
02:14:19.505 --> 02:14:26.370
that, you know, there's already so much software and tooling that uses Nostra that even if all the people would leave,

1677
02:14:27.010 --> 02:14:29.990
there would be enough computers still using the network.

1678
02:14:30.450 --> 02:14:36.790
And, you know, I find that super bullish. Like, this is where where I want to be. I I want to be in a place where

1679
02:14:37.170 --> 02:14:38.230
the the possibilities

1680
02:14:38.770 --> 02:14:43.085
are, so to speak, like, almost endless because you're able to build anything

1681
02:14:43.865 --> 02:14:47.325
or, with just a couple couple of clicks and steps.

1682
02:14:47.945 --> 02:14:49.965
So, I remain bullish

1683
02:14:50.345 --> 02:14:53.165
and dedicated. I don't know where else to go,

1684
02:14:54.025 --> 02:14:54.525
and,

1685
02:14:55.570 --> 02:14:58.310
I just want to be close with my Bitcoin buddies

1686
02:14:58.770 --> 02:14:59.270
and

1687
02:14:59.890 --> 02:15:00.949
then, you know,

1688
02:15:01.330 --> 02:15:06.070
ride or die. Like, I don't fucking care about the influx of users. So that's it.

1689
02:15:06.370 --> 02:15:10.305
Yeah. I mean, the ride or dies are already on Noster. It's a success from that point of view.

1690
02:15:10.705 --> 02:15:13.445
I think there's a little bit too much fascination with,

1691
02:15:14.145 --> 02:15:19.765
because Noster is so open and transparent on, like, the, quote, unquote, daily active users metric.

1692
02:15:20.465 --> 02:15:22.645
I think that's mostly a slave metric.

1693
02:15:23.690 --> 02:15:27.310
How many addicts do you have? And I also think it doesn't properly

1694
02:15:28.410 --> 02:15:29.390
measure lurkers,

1695
02:15:30.810 --> 02:15:35.150
like people who just cons consume content and are just reading and not engaging.

1696
02:15:36.255 --> 02:15:40.995
Yeah. That's like probably 80% of users, though. I yeah. A YouTuber.

1697
02:15:41.375 --> 02:15:46.275
But it's important to realize that with a protocol instead of a platform, like x is

1698
02:15:46.655 --> 02:15:47.795
x or Instagram

1699
02:15:48.095 --> 02:15:52.300
or Reddit, these are walled gardens. You have to sign up to consume that

1700
02:15:52.920 --> 02:15:55.340
consume those discussions and consume that content.

1701
02:15:56.200 --> 02:16:00.540
With Nostr, you know, anyone who has an Internet connection can do that without permission,

1702
02:16:00.920 --> 02:16:02.220
and no one would know.

1703
02:16:02.600 --> 02:16:07.574
Those people aren't getting tracked right now. And you see it when something breaks on Nostra.

1704
02:16:08.355 --> 02:16:13.014
The people that pretend that they're not using Nostra tend to find out about it within 10 minutes.

1705
02:16:13.955 --> 02:16:19.255
And that's because it is it is open and is accessible to everyone. But I will say that

1706
02:16:20.550 --> 02:16:28.730
you did mention something interesting there, which is I also you know, I'm not a social media person. Like, my only social media for the last decade was

1707
02:16:29.270 --> 02:16:30.010
was Twitter,

1708
02:16:30.469 --> 02:16:33.395
and I was only using it for Bitcoin things. So

1709
02:16:34.574 --> 02:16:47.475
I continue that's what I use Nostra for now, just for Bitcoin things. And there is a common refrain that people have. They're like, oh, there's too much Bitcoin content on Nostra. And to me, like, the biggest issue is that there's not enough. Like, I've been a little bit frustrated with

1710
02:16:48.061 --> 02:17:02.715
the amount of Bitcoin discussion and good Bitcoin discussion on Noster, and I know it's not really happening on x either because it's just a fucking cesspool now. And I think just good Bitcoin discussion is harder to find than it's ever been in the past.

1711
02:17:03.274 --> 02:17:05.375
I think we solve that a lot.

1712
02:17:05.755 --> 02:17:11.615
You know, we will solve that, and and that's basically through the tools, making the tools better. So, like, Primal, for instance,

1713
02:17:13.274 --> 02:17:16.590
has a has a massive update that's coming out this week.

1714
02:17:17.550 --> 02:17:19.609
And I'm gonna have a million,

1715
02:17:20.270 --> 02:17:23.330
the the project lead over at primal on dispatch

1716
02:17:23.710 --> 02:17:25.090
next week, probably Monday,

1717
02:17:25.470 --> 02:17:28.050
freaks, but I'll tell you on Noster the exact time.

1718
02:17:28.830 --> 02:17:35.545
It's not set in stone yet. But the the blue sky you mentioned blue sky, and blue sky is a really interesting phenomenon

1719
02:17:36.085 --> 02:17:36.905
where people

1720
02:17:38.325 --> 02:17:38.565
I

1721
02:17:39.205 --> 02:17:41.625
most people don't care about the tech stack,

1722
02:17:42.565 --> 02:17:53.100
when they're using these things. They just care about how the apps work in practice. And, actually, with Blue Sky, people are seeking it out because they want more moderation, which is like the exact opposite of

1723
02:17:53.560 --> 02:17:56.140
Noster's ethos. So I think, like,

1724
02:17:57.080 --> 02:18:08.815
we we we win in that front. We win in terms of more and more people using it and more and more useful conversation happening when the tools are so easy that, you know, the censorship resistance, the verifiability,

1725
02:18:09.195 --> 02:18:09.855
the permissionlessness

1726
02:18:10.795 --> 02:18:16.329
is just kind of a side effect of what you get from using it. And it's just a way better user experience.

1727
02:18:17.750 --> 02:18:19.210
And I think, you know,

1728
02:18:19.909 --> 02:18:23.770
there are many developers in in Nostra that have realized this

1729
02:18:24.149 --> 02:18:28.455
and are making great strides on this, and particularly the Primal team is

1730
02:18:28.936 --> 02:18:30.715
very laser focused on

1731
02:18:31.095 --> 02:18:34.075
kind of this, quote, unquote, you know, mainstream client.

1732
02:18:34.695 --> 02:18:37.675
So I was just amazing job. That guy is amazing.

1733
02:18:38.375 --> 02:18:39.515
Yeah. Well, it's,

1734
02:18:40.535 --> 02:18:43.275
I I don't wanna give away too much information because

1735
02:18:43.601 --> 02:18:44.101
because,

1736
02:18:45.761 --> 02:18:54.580
I don't wanna take I don't wanna take millions thunder, but, the this next primal launch, I I puts it ahead of x in terms of usability and

1737
02:18:54.881 --> 02:18:59.705
search functionality and Well optimizations, and it just makes it a way better experience.

1738
02:19:00.085 --> 02:19:12.005
All without a caching server? No. With with a caching server. Still with a caching server. Alright. Wait. Wait. I'll You can choose your own caching server, you know, if you want. Okay. That's cool. I I wanna get to to your point with,

1739
02:19:12.805 --> 02:19:14.025
with Bitcoin content.

1740
02:19:14.561 --> 02:19:15.940
I actually, like, just,

1741
02:19:16.561 --> 02:19:26.660
I don't hear that as a joke. Like, I I don't know if that was meant to be a joke or not. Like, I would be like seriously, I think the same thing. There is not enough Bitcoin discussion on Nasr,

1742
02:19:27.176 --> 02:19:30.476
and that's because my my particular interest and obsession is Bitcoin.

1743
02:19:31.016 --> 02:19:38.155
As I said, like, I wanna learn everything about Bitcoin and know everything, everyone who's talking about Bitcoin. I want them,

1744
02:19:38.535 --> 02:19:40.075
in my face. But

1745
02:19:42.100 --> 02:19:42.920
I'm, like,

1746
02:19:43.620 --> 02:19:45.480
kind of disappointed by the

1747
02:19:45.860 --> 02:19:47.160
Bitcoin conversational

1748
02:19:47.540 --> 02:19:59.425
space for a long time. That was already the case when everything was happening on on Reddit, and then the community for some, like, unexplained and or or implicit reason

1749
02:19:59.885 --> 02:20:06.705
moved over to x. And that's that was the reason why I joined x in the first place was also just to be closer with the Bitcoin conversation.

1750
02:20:07.324 --> 02:20:09.585
And to be honest, I'm I'm kind of shocked

1751
02:20:10.125 --> 02:20:11.641
that no one is

1752
02:20:12.340 --> 02:20:14.360
no. Not I shouldn't say no one, but,

1753
02:20:14.740 --> 02:20:15.561
like, most,

1754
02:20:16.420 --> 02:20:29.445
devs, which who are the, you know, the ones that I would like to follow their conversation. Like, I would enter the room the rooms in which they hang out because I wanna overhear what they're talking to each other. Like, I wanna

1755
02:20:31.025 --> 02:20:32.085
hear on CLN,

1756
02:20:32.705 --> 02:20:37.830
talk to, Lula Lula from, sorry. What's this? Nalu from Lightning Labs.

1757
02:20:38.311 --> 02:20:42.330
And I I wanna observe that discussion. And I think that kind of discussion

1758
02:20:43.430 --> 02:20:48.811
should really happen on Nosta, not on x because we're building a decentralized

1759
02:20:49.990 --> 02:21:01.354
money system that shakes the foundations of the world's order. And, you know, people are noticing that and, you know, it's an important project that belongs to humanity

1760
02:21:01.734 --> 02:21:04.875
and not to a single country or a single jurisdiction.

1761
02:21:05.335 --> 02:21:08.091
So our communication medium should be neutral,

1762
02:21:08.551 --> 02:21:15.931
and it should be uncensorable, and it should belong to everyone, like the thing that we're building as well. But for the sake of Bitcoin, like, literally just

1763
02:21:16.551 --> 02:21:17.931
a practical consideration.

1764
02:21:18.950 --> 02:21:25.785
And so in that regard, like, when when Nasdaq came out, there was more excitement about it, but, I'm still

1765
02:21:26.405 --> 02:21:27.865
kind of surprised that

1766
02:21:28.405 --> 02:21:31.945
even the most hardcore nerds in this space

1767
02:21:32.325 --> 02:21:33.605
choose to bring their,

1768
02:21:34.005 --> 02:21:34.505
discussions

1769
02:21:35.050 --> 02:21:42.090
onto x rather or ignore Noster while it's just waiting there waiting here for their discussions and,

1770
02:21:42.569 --> 02:21:45.229
to to be part of that network. So,

1771
02:21:46.170 --> 02:21:47.529
I think if we all,

1772
02:21:48.335 --> 02:21:58.354
went back to our cyberpunk ideals and, you know, meditated about what we're doing here and what the goals are and so on, you know, we would see that most of it is a way better

1773
02:21:58.895 --> 02:22:04.880
way of communicating about this even if the UX sucks. Like, who cares about UX? I want censorship resistant speech

1774
02:22:05.181 --> 02:22:06.240
about softwares.

1775
02:22:06.620 --> 02:22:13.360
I don't want even the slightest possibility of a centralized entity being able to manipulate the trans the discussions

1776
02:22:14.700 --> 02:22:19.975
to make decisions about how Bitcoin should evolve. Like, this is too important. We need neutral ground

1777
02:22:20.355 --> 02:22:20.835
and,

1778
02:22:21.395 --> 02:22:22.936
you know, these things

1779
02:22:23.315 --> 02:22:24.055
are happening.

1780
02:22:24.436 --> 02:22:27.815
This is, like, no conspiracy theories here, but,

1781
02:22:28.595 --> 02:22:29.895
the CIA playbook

1782
02:22:30.595 --> 02:22:32.855
is partially that is to

1783
02:22:33.250 --> 02:22:35.189
sway discord and manipulate,

1784
02:22:36.370 --> 02:22:39.350
conversations. And when you have someone like Elon

1785
02:22:39.810 --> 02:22:41.270
who just, you know,

1786
02:22:41.810 --> 02:22:48.945
probably and do whatever the current administration tells him to do because they gotten way too much at his balls at this point,

1787
02:22:49.585 --> 02:22:54.965
and also the other way around, like, he also got the administration at the balls at some in some way.

1788
02:22:55.266 --> 02:23:00.965
Like, you can just see that that that's not good. It's not it's not a place to exchange ideas freely.

1789
02:23:01.579 --> 02:23:04.960
Your ideas aren't free on those centralized platforms.

1790
02:23:05.340 --> 02:23:08.079
Every single post you make there is for the

1791
02:23:08.939 --> 02:23:13.680
financial benefit of that organization and nothing more. There is no other goal to maximize.

1792
02:23:14.220 --> 02:23:16.305
They can say whatever they want.

1793
02:23:16.864 --> 02:23:18.885
There are huge corporations with shareholders

1794
02:23:19.425 --> 02:23:24.005
who don't give a fuck about any of the ideals that their spokespeople say.

1795
02:23:24.385 --> 02:23:34.041
That's just a fact. Like, you can be as idealistic about Elon as you like. At the end of the day, he has basically no say over it as long as he has, like,

1796
02:23:34.480 --> 02:23:34.980
public,

1797
02:23:35.920 --> 02:23:38.020
investors and so on. So yeah.

1798
02:23:38.960 --> 02:23:39.700
Damn right.

1799
02:23:40.080 --> 02:23:41.860
You said it better than I can.

1800
02:23:43.045 --> 02:23:45.064
Cali, this conversation has been great.

1801
02:23:46.245 --> 02:23:48.825
I I wanna end it with just a call to action

1802
02:23:49.205 --> 02:23:51.305
to to Cashew. I mean, I think,

1803
02:23:52.165 --> 02:23:57.899
you guys have made great strides on the protocol. I'm incredibly grateful it exists. I think the freaks,

1804
02:23:58.279 --> 02:24:00.939
if you haven't used Cashew if somehow

1805
02:24:01.560 --> 02:24:06.140
you've made it 2 and a half hours into this conversation and you have never used Cashew,

1806
02:24:07.399 --> 02:24:08.220
go to cashew.me,

1807
02:24:09.335 --> 02:24:16.716
send a few stats in, play around with it, use the tools. Cali's way open to feedback. Like, the feedback does actually help.

1808
02:24:17.415 --> 02:24:21.355
A lot of this stuff, whether it's Noster, whether it's Cashew, whether it's Bitcoin,

1809
02:24:22.000 --> 02:24:31.620
like, you gotta use the thing. You gotta use the thing. You have to play around with it. You gotta get comfortable with it, you know, and and good engineers are are always happy for intelligent feedback

1810
02:24:32.000 --> 02:24:33.540
as a result. Cali,

1811
02:24:34.686 --> 02:24:44.625
do you have a will you have any final thoughts for the audience before we wrap here? No. But I I mean, my final thoughts are always the same, and I just wanna say it again if, like,

1812
02:24:45.165 --> 02:24:53.761
if you are deaf out there and this tickled your pickle, you know, or if you're a deaf lady and this tickles some some other part of your body, excuse the,

1813
02:24:54.641 --> 02:24:55.780
the this joke.

1814
02:24:56.240 --> 02:24:56.641
But,

1815
02:24:57.440 --> 02:25:17.540
if you if you think, like, you should contribute to Bitcoin and you can feel the urge burning inside you as you stare into your corporate display and you tighten to your corporate keyboard and you know that your human potential is bigger than what you're doing, then consider becoming a Bitcoin dev. It is freedom, self determination.

1816
02:25:18.000 --> 02:25:18.900
It's a project

1817
02:25:19.280 --> 02:25:20.020
for humanity.

1818
02:25:20.480 --> 02:25:21.620
You'll feel fulfillment

1819
02:25:22.240 --> 02:25:22.740
and,

1820
02:25:23.761 --> 02:25:27.460
and meet people in ways that you didn't even know existed.

1821
02:25:27.815 --> 02:25:31.595
So we need everyone who can join us on this mission. And,

1822
02:25:32.295 --> 02:25:34.795
if you are interested in Cashew, you can go to cashew.space.

1823
02:25:35.575 --> 02:25:38.476
That's where you can find all the information about our project.

1824
02:25:39.015 --> 02:25:45.891
And, you can talk to me directly. We're looking for contributors. We have lots of different, projects in many different languages. Just,

1825
02:25:46.690 --> 02:25:48.470
take a look at the libraries

1826
02:25:48.770 --> 02:25:51.431
and, feel free to join our conversation

1827
02:25:51.811 --> 02:25:55.625
and our channels. Ask me directly if you have any questions. That's totally

1828
02:25:56.165 --> 02:26:05.145
fine. And if you're not interested in Casio because it's custodial stuff and so on, like, you don't or you're just you're you're a lightning person or you care about

1829
02:26:05.524 --> 02:26:12.470
l two stuff, like, any person with that kind of interest is needed in the space. Like, you should seriously

1830
02:26:12.930 --> 02:26:18.550
join Bitcoin because, otherwise, no one else will do the work. So thank you for having me out there.

1831
02:26:19.090 --> 02:26:21.989
Wonderful. Much love, brother. You're always welcome.

1832
02:26:22.835 --> 02:26:27.895
You ever wanna come on the show before our 6 month rendezvous, just text me and we'll make it happen.

1833
02:26:28.516 --> 02:26:28.915
And,

1834
02:26:29.556 --> 02:26:38.601
huge shout out to the freaks who joined us in the the live chat. You guys make the show unique, and huge shout out to all the freaks out there who continue to support the show,

1835
02:26:39.141 --> 02:26:49.895
with your incredibly scarce stats, whether that's on Zaps using the live stream or whether that's through podcasting 2 point o apps. I appreciate you all. Stay humble, StackSets.

1836
02:27:00.990 --> 02:27:02.690
Our world is chaotic,

1837
02:27:03.150 --> 02:27:07.490
but life found its way by channeling energy to bring order to chaos.

1838
02:27:07.870 --> 02:27:18.095
It is in our nature to seek signals amongst noise because it is through communication and exchange that we evolve beyond the darkness of chaos into the dawn of civilization.

1839
02:27:19.595 --> 02:27:23.454
Our our evolution thrives in exchange of all the info we try to convey.

1840
02:27:23.755 --> 02:27:28.860
They flow through to the marketplace and form the signals to regulate how we coordinate where things

1841
02:27:29.500 --> 02:27:40.875
need to be. Price speaks so we learn to compete. This drives us to efficiently shape the world with our voice. Now let the market speak. It's how we build, we sow, we trade, we grow to meet our wants and needs. We specialize

1842
02:27:41.355 --> 02:27:52.895
drive from the mind our creations into reality. We make progress in our process to get more for less, advancing society before full dawn of the age of technology that harness the energy to reach prosperity.

1843
02:27:53.435 --> 02:28:06.030
Our money embodies the power to reap what we sow, so the market becomes a channel for our collective energy to flow. When value is traded for value, we are aligned and so we evolve. This is how amidst uncertainty,

1844
02:28:06.730 --> 02:28:08.190
life continues to grow.

1845
02:28:08.730 --> 02:28:16.455
But the dawn of tech gave rise to light speed information exchange. So to transact fast, we further abstract money from energy constraints

1846
02:28:16.835 --> 02:28:32.160
and became more aligned on a few large entities to coordinate trade, concentrating the power, resources, and authority to create more and more of our money, distorting its signals, eroding its worth, and throwing us back into the darkness of chaos.

1847
02:28:47.375 --> 02:28:52.755
When we destroy the mechanism of money, we destroy our ability to navigate

1848
02:28:53.130 --> 02:28:53.870
through uncertainty.

1849
02:28:54.649 --> 02:29:06.510
And when we can't trade value freely and directly, we must trust the few to govern the many. What happens when all our means center around an authority? Complexity builds now coordination.

1850
02:29:07.085 --> 02:29:37.475
Relies on conformity, observe our thoughts, the sense of dissent and coerce our actions. Can there be true innovation when there's no freedom of expression? What happens to our voice? The ones that shape social discourse now whose ideas gets created and which problems get solved. If our progress depends on hearing many sides to resolve, then why would we suppress the voice that shapes how humanity evolves? When we cut off the perspectives that make up society, we lose sight of the truth that forms our entire reality.

1851
02:29:37.935 --> 02:29:44.595
Each person's contribution builds up our resiliency. Did we forget these differences are what strengthens humanity?

1852
02:29:45.854 --> 02:29:59.730
When communication breaks our words to the silence, our acts become violent, and the world is divided, and its darkness, truth is twisted by our pain and our bias, eroding the common ground, making us more and more fragile.

1853
02:30:00.990 --> 02:30:03.745
To navigate uncertainty, we must solve for robustness,

1854
02:30:04.125 --> 02:30:14.945
so everything gets tried and tested by various efforts, until we discover the system that best coordinates us. Mirrors life's process of channeling energy to create signal from chaos.

1855
02:30:15.601 --> 02:30:16.980
In the era of technology,

1856
02:30:17.360 --> 02:30:30.180
we transform energy into computational power to process the noise of free markets into structured order. And just by looking at numbers, we can derive how much power is required to reduce chaos and inscribe a flow of value for order verify that our transactions happened in line with shared rules. We don't need to seek trust.

1857
02:30:30.835 --> 02:30:57.285
Transactions happened in line with shared rules. We don't need to seek trust when we can see proof. It is real time consensus that our lines is to evolve. This is how, amidst uncertainty, our lives continue to grow when we uphold our own rules, be preserved our own work and defend our own voice, which lets the true market emerge. The strength of the design lies in each of our participation since we are the nodes that channel our energy end to end. As we claim this

1858
02:31:08.245 --> 02:31:25.704
dawn of light touches all parts of the glow and it ripples throughout society, and it returns us the hope that becomes the power that sparks humanity to thrive, that same power that fuels the creation of the mind. And when our mind and our money are truly set free and they transcend the limits

1859
02:31:26.085 --> 02:31:27.385
of past boundaries,

1860
02:31:27.845 --> 02:31:50.561
now knowing becomes owning and ideas become wealth. What happens now we can all push to expand the edges of our existence and assume evolution when things are the hardest. As we head for the light, we have to push through the darkness that is in these moments. We do what we do best. We take the chaos in the darkness and use our power to create. It is in these moments when we're all in alignment

1861
02:31:50.875 --> 02:32:00.175
and afraid of a difference ascends us to a highest and distant depth of it all. Though that hope is not gone, it is always the darkest before dawn.