CD145: PRIMAL WITH MILJAN

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Created: 11/26/2024 20:35:25
Duration: 6472.746
Channels: 1

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Ultimately, what you've seen in terms of trading on the platform since the election?

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The day post election, the Wednesday post election, our business doubled. We saw a 100% growth in Bitcoin purchases. Our customers are predominantly purchasing Bitcoin

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And over 90% since election are actually taking the Bitcoin off the platform and holding it in their own custody. So we're not seeing active speculative trading on gambling on this short term price. We're seeing long term accumulation on our platform. And our customers are excited. We serve Bitcoiners, and Bitcoiners are excited right now. Okay. So you're maybe supporting those that are focused purely on the ecosystem, but people are going elsewhere

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to trade, whether it's gambling or not. We now got options trading on the Bitcoin spot ETFs. What do you think of that? What do you make of this transition from, well, DeFi and and crypto into more traditional finance? Well, the last time I was on this show, I told you and Ed, which Ed, congrats, by the way. I'm thinking of you.

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I told you guys I thought Bitcoin was the only money in crypto. I wasn't sold on any of the other cryptocurrencies and that my business we're predicated on Bitcoin as money and we sell our customers financial services. So if you're a customer of mine, want Bitcoin Financial Services, you wanna buy it, you wanna store it, you wanna move it, you wanna pay your bills with it, you maybe want a loan against it, these are the type of products that we want to serve our customers in the future. We do not think of ourselves as a speculative exchange. So, that's my customer base.

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Options, ETFs,

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MSTR,

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all of these things are pro liquidity for Bitcoin. What you want in a money or a store of value is you want it to be salable, you want it to be liquid at any point 247, 365 globally. You wanna be able to sell it. And so all of this is pro liquidity, which enhances the profile for Bitcoin to be a better asset for a government, a corporation, an individual. So everything is bullish for Bitcoin. That's what I always say. So another day,

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more bullish activity for the asset. Okay. I think the unique positioning on the Bitcoin strategic reserve, I think if this happens, this will be one of the most important economic announcements in US history. I think it'd be on par with 1971

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and Nixon. However, what I think is not being talked about enough is it's positive. In 1933, the US had a really big economic announcement. What was it? We're taking all your gold. In 1971, the US had a really big economic announcement. What was it? We're divorcing ourselves from the gold standard so we can print money. In In 2008, the US had a really big economic announcement. What was it? It was we're bailing out all the big banks that misbehaved.

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In 2025,

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if the US has a really big economic announcement, what is it? It's we're pro technology, we're pro innovation,

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What principles and morals and ethical alignment does Bitcoin have? Equal rights, equal opportunity, an open network. These are American ideals, American values. This is an asset that was accessible to the people 15 years ago that the people own. Governments only own 2, 3, 4 percent of this asset. This asset is held by the people. It acts in the best interest of the public. It's pro jobs. It's pro energy. It's pro industry. It's pro growth.

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And does anyone else have a plan to get us out of debt? Are we gonna start a lemonade stand out here in Times Square? No. How about the best performing asset in the history of mankind?

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We lean into it. We buy it. Coinbase is an American company. Stripe's an American company. Kraken's an American company. Tether sells the US dollar. Let's support these businesses, let's support this industry.

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Over the last 15 years Right. The best thing you could have done is buy Bitcoin.

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And I think that's gonna be true for the next 1500 years. And so, as a country, I think we have a choice. I think everyone else around the world is understanding we are pro growth, pro business, pro Bitcoin as this new administration takes office, and we have to make a decision. I think the

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Bitcoin as this new administration

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takes office, and we have to make a decision. I think the worst thing we can do is not own enough. And, actually, to derisk this, we should buy some and push these American ideals in technology and innovation and growth through the best performing asset in technology in mankind.

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro was our boy,

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Jack Mallers,

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on Bloomberg.

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Absolutely crushing it.

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I it's,

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I still think that stat to me is amazing that 90% of funds on strike are withdrawn to self custody.

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Absolutely love to see it. Not your keys, not your

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coin. We have a great chat lined up today. We have

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Millian

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here from Primal. How's it going, Millian?

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Going well. Good to see you, Matt. Good to be back. Good to see our boy, Jack,

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crushing it on Normie TV as usual.

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Yeah. I think this is the cycle where,

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we just constantly have a a our friends on

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on mainstream news networks. They're all Bitcoin pod during bull runs, they're always turned into Bitcoin podcasts,

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but this time even,

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more so. I don't know why

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the live chat is only showing zaps, but,

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I see your live chat, Freaks.

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I,

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it's way to communicate with us is to throw, like, massive Zaps out there. It was it was kind of accidental, but if you want your message to show on screen now, you have to use the Zap. So I'm just gonna actually leave that.

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We're gonna be talking about Nostr today, so I feel like it's even it's even more fitting that we'll have a Zap only live chat.

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Nostr, I mean, you guys have heard plenty about it.

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Milian here is

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is the founder and CEO of Primal. They're a tiny ass team,

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that's building one of the most popular Nostr clients.

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I mean, I'll start it off with the disclosure

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that my fund 1031 is the largest investor in Primal,

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proudly so.

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I I do not recommend Primal because we're an investor.

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We're an investor because it's such a good product. Like, it's just an it's an awesome app. It's an awesome team, and,

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they're really trying to to onboard, you know,

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the next a 1000000000 people into

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into Noster. So so

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I've had 1,000,000 on the show a couple times, I think, already.

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But the reason we're here today is because primal 2.0 launched. So why don't we just start with that?

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What is primal 2.0,

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and why should we be excited about it?

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Yeah. Thanks for having me back.

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Yeah. We shipped primal 2.0,

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a few days ago, Thursday last week.

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And, Yeah. We're all still catching up on sleep,

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from that.

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I saw your announcement

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of it on our HR on Friday, and you did a great job there, by the way. That's a great summary of primal 2.0.

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My wife heard it,

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and she was so impressed by it. She was she thought I was important.

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Oh, there we go.

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After listening to that. So that's good. Thanks for, thanks for that.

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Yeah. So it's a pretty big release.

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It's it was a long time coming.

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I I heard you say, hey. These guys have been working on it for 3 months or so. And I was like, no, man. It's been 3 months that I've been telling you it's imminent.

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It's been, like, 3 months that I've been telling you it's 2 weeks.

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Fair.

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But, yeah, it's probably more like 8 months. And Damn. In retrospect,

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retrospect,

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probably a little bit too long.

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We're going to try to make, the upcoming releases a little bit more incremental because the 2 point o was,

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was basically maybe 3 or 4 releases rolled into 1.

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So

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we,

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shipped,

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reads support. So long, support for long form content on Oster,

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kind of as a major

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tab. So it's a top level item.

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And that alone probably should have been on the release in itself.

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Right. If we had done it that way, we would have shipped that feature a few months ago.

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Right. I've been using it for a while now.

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Yeah. Exactly. So

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we kinda rolled a number of things into one massive release. So And why was that?

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They were kinda related to the features that we were look looking at, and, of course, it was possible to break them out and and ship them separately. But, the next big release,

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feature as part of the 2.0 release is the whole feed marketplace

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and restructuring

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of the app

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to,

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support basically infinite feeds. Alright?

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So,

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in primal 2.0, we we we rearchitected

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all of our apps, so iOS, Android, and web,

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in a way that the home tab and the reads tab have the ability to host

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infinite number of feeds. And from there but when you go to manage your feeds,

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you,

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you get to browse the feed marketplace

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and kind of add and remove feeds like that and reorder them. And you can set any

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custom feed to be your default feed and so forth.

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So it felt important that to have this capability

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as a part of the Read's launch. It wasn't essential, but it they kinda went well together.

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And then we're like, okay. Since we're doing the whole feed marketplace thing,

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we,

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wanted to make it easy to for people to build their own feeds. So we really leaned into advanced search,

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which in itself probably should have been a release. So that's a major feature.

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It kinda like, things things, got out of hand, and we kind of,

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yeah, we packed it all into one massive release. And then, of course, on top of it all was,

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Primal premium,

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which,

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we launched,

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as a part of 2 point o.

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Yeah. So you kinda I mean,

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to to be fair,

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I was right there with you during I mean, you guys did the work. I I was just providing feedback. But I I mean, I I

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supported the decision to bundle it all together,

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because that that makes sense. But you also kinda end up in this situation where

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there's so much new shit now

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that

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each one

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is is massive in its own right. And I I feel like then it becomes a little bit hard. It's I mean and that's fine. Whatever. It's gonna take users a little bit to realize what kind of powerful new features they have available to them.

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And that I mean, Noster is is still incredibly young and incredibly early.

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So I I guess that's fine. But, like so so it also creates some issues with this with this show because I don't know where to start. I think

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I

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and I just wanna be clear. The the one feature I really wanted him to bundle into primal 2 point o, which he hasn't yet, is integrated ZapStream.

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So when will we get that? Will we get that in, like, 2 weeks?

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Can I can people just view the stream live and primal in 2 weeks?

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Man, we we shipped such a massive release with so many features. And your first question is when something new.

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Sorry. That's my job. I just have to keep I gotta keep pushing you from the sidelines.

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Okay. I think we should start with I actually think the search. I think the search is a a killer feature. Let's talk about the search a little bit. What what ability have we given users in terms of search?

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So, yeah, as a part of this,

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2 point o overhaul,

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we,

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kind of reimplemented

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big parts of our stack, including the indexing service.

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So completely new technology stack on the back end when it comes to,

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the indexer for Noster.

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And I believe we're still somebody should correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe primal is still the only open source indexer for Noster.

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So hope that we'll get more,

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indexers to join the party there. But, yeah, we reimplemented

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it in a way that made it

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way more powerful, way more kind of granular in terms of the types of things you could

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you could specify there to, to be searched.

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So maybe I'll talk about search at the high level first, in in the new Primal apps.

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We have this kind of yeah. I'll stay humble.

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Definitely,

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is a good, good advice there. So

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Always good advice. Searching yeah. Always good advice for sure.

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Search at the high level at primal.

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We have this this kind of simple contextual

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search

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in any section that you're currently in. So, basically, if you're in home,

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tab,

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if you just tap on that search icon in the top right corner in the mobile app and type a quick search, it will search notes.

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Right. If you're in the reads tab, it will search reads. If you're in the notifications tab, it will actually search notifications.

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So this is kinda like a quick and easy way to get contextual

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search anywhere within the app. Oh, by the way, if you're in somebody's profile screen, there's a search icon there, and you can tap on that. It will be and it will,

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search content posted by that user.

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So

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that kind of quick contextual

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search works as you'd expect.

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But then,

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when you open that search,

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screen,

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the the you can

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the search icon gets replaced by kind of the settings icon. And if you tap it again, you get the advanced search screen, which is, like, way more elaborate and powerful.

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So we The regular search is, like, I just wanna, like, look up a user. I wanna go to, like, Jack's profile or something. I would just quickly type in Jack. And then the advanced search is where the magic happens.

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Exactly. So exactly. So the regular search is you can look at profile up or do a simple kind of key,

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keyword search.

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But then if you want advanced search, you basically tap on that same location twice. You go top right corner, tap tap, and then all of a sudden you have the advanced,

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search UI.

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And there, you can specify all kinds of things.

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You can specify,

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first of all, the the content type that you wish searched. So you can say, you know, search for videos or images or,

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notes or,

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long form reads and things like that. So you can specify that.

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You can specify

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the list of users that

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should be,

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considered who have posted

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this particular content. So it's like posted by, essentially.

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But you're not limited to one person. You can go and, like, add a number of profiles there. So you can kind of keep typing in. That's awesome. You can just keep adding people.

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Yeah. Exactly.

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And then so that's the posted by.

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And then you have

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replied by. So if you want to just search replies, you can say, okay. Give me,

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notes by,

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you know,

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that were replied to by Odell, for example. That's insane. Yeah. You can find that kind of stuff.

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Or either one of those could be a list. Right? So you can really,

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you know,

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make it much more interesting than that.

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And then zapped by as well

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is is another,

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kind of,

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field where you can,

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set the list of people that have zapped. And think about how interesting of of a feed you might get if you,

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you know, say, give me all the posts posts, or notes zapped by,

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Jack

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and NVK, for example. Yeah. That's right there. I I didn't wanna say Odell because you zap a lot. So

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they don't allow it down enough.

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Right.

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You're one of the most prolific zappers out there. And then you can get Yeah. Go on. Go ahead. No. I mean, there's also, like,

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and we can just double get to that later. But in the explore tab, there's, like, a Zap feed, a live Zap feed, which I I absolutely love. But we're still we're talking about search. We're talking about search. Yeah. I mean, I think people don't realize with search

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like, one of the killer

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features of of x and and of Twitter before it was is the search. Like, the search is is incredibly powerful.

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On x,

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before before I left x, one of the things I love doing was I would just

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just retweet old,

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like, 5 year old posts, 6 year old posts, and people are like, how does he remember that post or whatever? It's like, no. I was good at using their search. But this search is

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infinitely more powerful

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than what is built into X right now. Presumably what is built into Facebook or TikTok, I don't know, I haven't used those in

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00:17:30.365 --> 00:17:37.025
I've never used TikTok, but I haven't used Facebook in over a decade, LinkedIn. Right? The search the search is key. It's key for

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00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:42.440
for discovery, and it's key to be able to interact with, you know, a global communication protocol.

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Yeah. I think we legit have the most powerful search of any social media now. That's amazing.

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So remember that narrative that an Oscar has a discovery problem,

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and who's gonna run the indexers and stuff like that? Turns out the same people who build the roads.

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And, yeah. So so

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yeah. We implemented this indexer. We're running our own indexing service, and anyone can use our code to stand up their own indexing

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service and,

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you know, tweak it the way they wish to tweak it. And there we're gonna have many index we already have many indexers running out there.

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But yeah. Just Rheinmold's indexer specifically is open source, so anyone can run one if they want to.

228
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Exactly. And it's it should be fairly easy to run.

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So,

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yeah. So going down the list of features there, you can also specify the scope for your search. So it could be by default, it's global.

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But you can say, no. Just search through my follows or just

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just search through my network

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or just search through my network interactions

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or my follows interactions. Meaning,

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that's kind of the slice of the networks. Search through all the Noster events

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that people I follow

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interacted with.

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So liked, zapped, replied, reposted, then, you know,

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any sort of

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reaction to it. So that's a crazy that's it's a very,

241
00:19:21.424 --> 00:19:26.245
interesting slice of the network because it's not precisely the content posted by your follows.

242
00:19:26.705 --> 00:19:31.299
Right. It's it's content it's wider than that. It's content that your follows

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00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.500
found interesting enough to engage with.

244
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So that produces some interesting results there.

245
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:52.775
And then you can set a whole bunch of filters on the search and all of that. So, you can say minimum number of zaps or the content score, all kinds of things. So any combination of the parameters that I've just, outlined

246
00:19:53.475 --> 00:19:57.895
above is possible and quite easy to do within any of our apps.

247
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And then you do your search.

248
00:20:01.290 --> 00:20:06.590
And if you think this particular search is useful, you can save that search

249
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and save and it gets saved into your home feeds or Reeds feeds if you're searching through Reeds.

250
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And and it becomes available to you

251
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to go to later on at any time.

252
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Yeah. Now you have now now that search becomes like a a feed itself, and so you can just toggle it on the top,

253
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which is awesome. Incredibly powerful.

254
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Yeah. I I wanna

255
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you said

256
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but we've heard this refrain

257
00:20:36.340 --> 00:20:38.919
constantly. Like, Nostar has a discovery problem.

258
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Like, I think this makes it

259
00:20:42.115 --> 00:20:46.774
apparent to to the deniers now that noster is a discovery solution.

260
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Like, noster is how you will be able to discover

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00:20:51.970 --> 00:20:52.710
new content,

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00:20:53.010 --> 00:21:07.765
important discussion, anything you want on the Internet going forward. And, you know, the status quo up until this point has been just a bunch of solid walled gardens. Like, I have no idea what the hell is going on on TikTok. I have no idea what's going on in Instagram.

263
00:21:08.945 --> 00:21:09.684
I have

264
00:21:10.385 --> 00:21:13.765
some idea of what's going on x because I get a lot of DMs about x.

265
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But Nostr

266
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has this open protocol

267
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that is searchable. And once you provide powerful tools to users,

268
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really, the sky's the limit. Okay. Search. We nailed down search. I wanna go next to by the way, shout out Mav 21,

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highest Zap,

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00:21:33.005 --> 00:21:35.345
in our live chat. Our live chat is at sildispatch.com/streamwith10,000

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sats.

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00:21:38.205 --> 00:21:45.905
There's a lot of questions rolling in, so I'm gonna use one of the questions to go to the next topic, which is Ivan is asking how I

273
00:21:46.290 --> 00:21:48.390
got the little gold halo around,

274
00:21:50.370 --> 00:21:57.910
the little gold halo around my my profile picture, which is, a Primal premium feature. So let's talk about Primal premium next.

275
00:21:59.885 --> 00:22:03.345
Okay. So with the 2 point o release, we shipped,

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like, a paid tier of primal, primal premium,

277
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where for $7 a month,

278
00:22:11.100 --> 00:22:13.200
you can get the primal name

279
00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:16.960
and a bunch of nostril tools. So, like, primal.net/odell

280
00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:19.200
is the primal name orodell@primal.net

281
00:22:20.300 --> 00:22:21.440
for the lightning address?

282
00:22:22.220 --> 00:22:33.434
Exactly. So the primal name gives you three things itself. So it gives you a verified nonster address if you want to use it. It gives you a friendly lightning address for our kind of built in

283
00:22:33.815 --> 00:22:35.274
custodial lightning wallet,

284
00:22:35.815 --> 00:22:40.315
and it gives you that VIP profile where that you can kind of easily,

285
00:22:40.695 --> 00:22:44.450
link, to your profile by go by giving out

286
00:22:44.909 --> 00:22:45.570
a primal.net/odel.

287
00:22:46.909 --> 00:22:51.009
So that name get can get used in any of those scenarios.

288
00:22:51.710 --> 00:22:53.730
And you're not required to use,

289
00:22:54.190 --> 00:22:55.070
you know, the the,

290
00:22:56.715 --> 00:23:01.935
verified nostril address by primal. You just have that option. Same goes with the lightning address. Right.

291
00:23:02.315 --> 00:23:03.855
So that's primal name.

292
00:23:04.475 --> 00:23:07.695
And then nostril tools, we just thought about,

293
00:23:08.750 --> 00:23:17.570
the types of things that would be useful to Nostra users, that Nostra users might be might find valuable enough to pay a monthly fee for.

294
00:23:18.269 --> 00:23:19.010
So this,

295
00:23:19.389 --> 00:23:22.210
currently in the first release includes things like

296
00:23:22.635 --> 00:23:24.015
increased media storage.

297
00:23:24.475 --> 00:23:25.355
So you can,

298
00:23:25.995 --> 00:23:26.815
you get,

299
00:23:27.195 --> 00:23:32.895
10 gigabytes of storage instead of, 1 gigabyte, which you get with the free tier.

300
00:23:33.755 --> 00:23:36.015
You can post So that's if you're uploading

301
00:23:36.795 --> 00:23:39.250
videos or photos or whatnot?

302
00:23:39.950 --> 00:23:40.690
Right. Exactly.

303
00:23:41.870 --> 00:23:43.490
And you get a very nice,

304
00:23:44.350 --> 00:23:48.049
UI for kind of managing all the media you've uploaded.

305
00:23:48.909 --> 00:23:51.970
We I'm quite happy with that part of the the app.

306
00:23:52.855 --> 00:23:56.875
Then we give you some Nostra account backup features.

307
00:23:57.335 --> 00:24:03.674
So for example, we back up the contact list, like, the history of your contact list over time

308
00:24:04.135 --> 00:24:05.160
so that if,

309
00:24:06.040 --> 00:24:09.900
a client, let's say, wipes your contact list, and I think it happened to,

310
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:11.820
almost everyone.

311
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:16.460
It happened to me many times. Sometimes it was my own client doing that.

312
00:24:17.560 --> 00:24:18.060
So

313
00:24:18.520 --> 00:24:20.220
Noster is not immune to that.

314
00:24:21.545 --> 00:24:29.005
It's nice to be able to go back and see, like, the, you know, the history of your contact list. It will tell you, you know, like, on

315
00:24:29.305 --> 00:24:31.965
November 25th, you had 655

316
00:24:32.745 --> 00:24:33.245
contacts,

317
00:24:34.260 --> 00:24:36.920
But on November 26th, you had now have 1.

318
00:24:37.300 --> 00:24:38.200
But, specifically,

319
00:24:38.660 --> 00:24:40.280
this is who you follow,

320
00:24:40.660 --> 00:24:47.560
not who follows you. That's right. The way Masterworks is you can only control who you follow. That's what you're updating

321
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:48.760
and saving.

322
00:24:49.695 --> 00:24:54.515
Yes. So that's called the contact list. It's your follow list. It's the list of accounts you follow.

323
00:24:55.855 --> 00:24:57.715
So we made this,

324
00:24:58.335 --> 00:24:58.835
utility,

325
00:24:59.135 --> 00:25:10.780
essentially, that's a part of primal premium that makes it very easy to go through the history of your follow lists and kind of restore the one you think is is best. And so it's, like, 2 clicks away, for you to do.

326
00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:13.660
We also,

327
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:15.660
fully backup your,

328
00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:21.544
Nostra content. So all of the Nostra events that you publish as a premium user,

329
00:25:22.885 --> 00:25:24.105
we keep a backup

330
00:25:24.645 --> 00:25:28.025
of all that content. So this includes notes, reactions,

331
00:25:28.485 --> 00:25:28.985
articles,

332
00:25:29.605 --> 00:25:31.385
anything that you publish in Noster.

333
00:25:32.220 --> 00:25:38.799
And you can we provide the UI for that in the premium tier where you can kind of

334
00:25:39.179 --> 00:25:40.160
see the categorized,

335
00:25:41.100 --> 00:25:46.559
kind of list of different content that you have along with the number of events that you have in each category.

336
00:25:46.945 --> 00:25:48.965
And you have the ability to rebroadcast

337
00:25:50.385 --> 00:25:53.765
any of those categories, or you can rebroadcast all of the events.

338
00:25:54.305 --> 00:25:55.845
And we will rebroadcast

339
00:25:56.465 --> 00:25:57.925
to your list of,

340
00:25:58.785 --> 00:26:01.685
specified relays that you have in your in your contacts,

341
00:26:03.143 --> 00:26:09.270
in your kind of account settings. So let's say you wanted to keep your own backup of your content.

342
00:26:10.290 --> 00:26:17.990
You can just add your let's say you you wanna stand up a relay, and you can add that relay to your relay list as a right relay

343
00:26:18.345 --> 00:26:20.684
and push rebroadcast, and it will

344
00:26:21.065 --> 00:26:25.065
rebroadcast the entire history. It will copy the history of all the events that you've,

345
00:26:25.705 --> 00:26:26.205
published

346
00:26:27.225 --> 00:26:30.480
to your relay along with all the other relays that are in your list.

347
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:33.860
In the web app, we'll let you actually download,

348
00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:35.780
the,

349
00:26:37.360 --> 00:26:39.460
all your events as well. So

350
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:43.380
it's kind of that was one of the open questions. Local backup.

351
00:26:43.845 --> 00:26:44.345
Exactly.

352
00:26:44.804 --> 00:26:48.184
And so that was one of the the open questions in Noster,

353
00:26:48.565 --> 00:26:56.070
you know, over the years where, you know, relays don't typically have SLAs. There are some premium relays out there that they might.

354
00:26:56.549 --> 00:26:57.450
But, typically,

355
00:26:58.230 --> 00:27:05.529
you know, people create accounts. They set their kind of, relays, and then they publish content, and there's no guarantee

356
00:27:06.389 --> 00:27:08.090
that any relay will

357
00:27:08.549 --> 00:27:11.289
hold any of your content for any amount of time.

358
00:27:11.845 --> 00:27:19.424
You know, there's some big relays like, the damos relay where Will makes a point of wiping the relay, every once in a while.

359
00:27:19.725 --> 00:27:26.445
Because the point being, don't rely on me hold keeping all your stuff forever. Right. That's that's not what we,

360
00:27:27.179 --> 00:27:31.759
have committed to doing. And also, Noster should not be affected

361
00:27:32.299 --> 00:27:33.039
with these,

362
00:27:34.460 --> 00:27:37.679
occasions where a massive relay wipes all their content.

363
00:27:38.220 --> 00:27:43.245
So he wanted to put that theory to a test a couple times, I think, and he did.

364
00:27:44.345 --> 00:27:57.085
And everything worked as expected. So Nostra continued to function even though, the damage relay was wiped fully. So that was good. Notice any notes missing or anything. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a good test for for the network,

365
00:27:58.169 --> 00:27:59.070
and that was

366
00:27:59.450 --> 00:28:02.350
great. But as a user, you may want to

367
00:28:02.809 --> 00:28:04.590
get a certain level of

368
00:28:04.970 --> 00:28:08.330
assurance that your content will be kept by,

369
00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:11.895
some of the relays that you, opposed to.

370
00:28:12.535 --> 00:28:21.835
So now, with Primal, we that's what we do for our premium users. We strive to kind of keep the content, like, all the content that we index,

371
00:28:22.695 --> 00:28:27.559
but we can't, of course, make guarantees for the entire network. It's it's crazy

372
00:28:28.419 --> 00:28:33.640
to be able to do that. But we do we can make those guarantees for our premium,

373
00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:39.620
users. Obviously, that's a much, much smaller part of the network. And for them, they get this,

374
00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:50.025
service as a part of the as a part of Primal Premium. And then UX wise, it's great. It's like literally just a single rebroadcast button. You just click that button and boom, rebroadcast.

375
00:28:51.125 --> 00:28:51.625
Yeah.

376
00:28:52.005 --> 00:29:00.240
And in the web app, next to that rebroadcast button, there's also a download button. So Hazard's asking what format is the download gonna be in? Do you know yet?

377
00:29:00.540 --> 00:29:03.440
It's JSON. Yeah. You can already try it.

378
00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:04.720
It's just like,

379
00:29:05.100 --> 00:29:06.559
you know, zipped JSON,

380
00:29:06.860 --> 00:29:08.000
essentially. Got it.

381
00:29:08.540 --> 00:29:13.645
So, if you go to if if you have Primal Premium and you use our web app now,

382
00:29:14.265 --> 00:29:20.684
there is the manage premium section, and one of the tabs there is, you know, content backup.

383
00:29:21.065 --> 00:29:25.120
So you can download that content and check it out. Marcelo's asking,

384
00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:31.200
if you miss 1 month payment in premium, do you lose your Noster address and Friendly Lightning address?

385
00:29:32.779 --> 00:29:33.279
No.

386
00:29:33.899 --> 00:29:39.360
So there's a 1 30 day grace period after kind of your subscription expires,

387
00:29:41.315 --> 00:29:42.135
during which

388
00:29:42.755 --> 00:29:48.375
all these things will continue to be assigned to you. But after that, your name gets released,

389
00:29:48.755 --> 00:29:53.575
and it becomes available to for others to register. That's how the system works currently.

390
00:29:54.035 --> 00:29:54.480
Great.

391
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.200
And,

392
00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:58.500
I feel compelled to mention here, since

393
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.299
I was so outspoken against the BlueJeck,

394
00:30:01.600 --> 00:30:05.220
why I think this is fundamentally different than Elon's,

395
00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:07.299
BlueJeck system on x,

396
00:30:08.265 --> 00:30:09.085
is is

397
00:30:10.345 --> 00:30:12.525
is two main reasons. First of all,

398
00:30:13.945 --> 00:30:20.285
my issue and I was very I've been very consistent on this. My issue is not the payment. I think actually more

399
00:30:20.779 --> 00:30:23.120
services should go to a pay model because

400
00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:28.559
then users are actual customers. They're your users. They're not the product that you're just trying to milk,

401
00:30:29.419 --> 00:30:30.960
for surveillance ad revenue.

402
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:36.745
So I like I like people paying for a product. The issue with the blue check is

403
00:30:37.125 --> 00:30:42.745
that it has identity verification built in in a very quiet way, which is through phone number verification.

404
00:30:43.365 --> 00:30:46.265
And I expect him to actually increase that verification

405
00:30:46.645 --> 00:30:50.780
requirements rather than decrease them. Maybe maybe I'll be proven wrong.

406
00:30:51.800 --> 00:31:02.055
With with primal premium, you can pay with Bitcoin. You don't have a billing address attached. You don't have a credit card attached, right? On BlueCheck, you have a phone number and a credit card attached.

407
00:31:02.535 --> 00:31:06.955
Neither of those are required for primal premium. And then the second piece is,

408
00:31:08.215 --> 00:31:14.315
it's dev it's kind of like a what you see in a lot of the shitty mobile games now, which is a pay to win model,

409
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.500
on the in in Blue Check Land, which is if you if you pay and get verified,

410
00:31:20.520 --> 00:31:23.340
you will get better engagement and better reach

411
00:31:23.800 --> 00:31:24.620
on the platform.

412
00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:28.700
While primal fundamentally does not change how

413
00:31:29.375 --> 00:31:30.515
people are viewing

414
00:31:30.815 --> 00:31:34.275
feeds and whatnot based on based on paid status.

415
00:31:34.815 --> 00:31:37.555
So so any user, a user that's using Amethyst

416
00:31:37.935 --> 00:31:40.355
that's not a Primal premium user or whatever,

417
00:31:40.975 --> 00:31:41.955
has the same

418
00:31:42.850 --> 00:32:02.245
the the the same quote, unquote reach as someone who is a primal premium user. So I think those those things make it fundamentally different. Once again, I challenge Elon to make those changes on x. I don't think he will. And instead of complaining about it, I wanted to be part of the the future that that we could build that is better,

419
00:32:02.784 --> 00:32:04.404
and that's why I'm here.

420
00:32:04.705 --> 00:32:10.485
So with all that said, then there's another tier above this called primal legends. What is primal legends?

421
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:18.220
If you don't mind, I'll just back up a little bit and kind of echo what you're saying there. I I think it's really important to get our own interests.

422
00:32:18.760 --> 00:32:19.580
Our our

423
00:32:20.040 --> 00:32:21.740
by saying our, I mean, primal.

424
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:24.700
Primal's interests align with those of our users.

425
00:32:25.265 --> 00:32:26.485
The we've had questions,

426
00:32:27.184 --> 00:32:37.684
you know, over the past, however, many months since we launched Primal regarding how Primal was going to monetize and whether we're, like, tracking user data and where whether we're,

427
00:32:38.650 --> 00:32:39.630
trying to monetize

428
00:32:39.930 --> 00:32:48.190
user data. And even though we spelled out quite clearly in our terms of service and privacy policy that we don't monetize user data,

429
00:32:48.650 --> 00:32:50.350
it's kind of nice to

430
00:32:50.815 --> 00:32:58.035
kind of launch this paid tier where it becomes very clear what our interests are. So,

431
00:32:58.655 --> 00:33:00.515
our users are our customers,

432
00:33:01.055 --> 00:33:01.955
like you said,

433
00:33:02.495 --> 00:33:02.995
and,

434
00:33:03.375 --> 00:33:04.435
we get compensated

435
00:33:04.815 --> 00:33:05.555
when users

436
00:33:05.910 --> 00:33:08.330
find primal products and services

437
00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:11.850
valuable enough that they are willing to pay for them.

438
00:33:12.230 --> 00:33:13.450
Therefore, we're incentivized

439
00:33:13.910 --> 00:33:14.410
to,

440
00:33:14.710 --> 00:33:15.850
wake up every morning

441
00:33:16.310 --> 00:33:18.330
and make the product better for our users

442
00:33:19.105 --> 00:33:20.325
who are our customers.

443
00:33:21.664 --> 00:33:22.164
So,

444
00:33:22.544 --> 00:33:23.044
this,

445
00:33:23.664 --> 00:33:29.524
kind of alignment of incentives, I think, is equally important as many other aspects,

446
00:33:30.945 --> 00:33:34.565
on of Noster that we talk about a lot more usually.

447
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:38.300
You know, like censorship resistance and all these things.

448
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:40.220
So user sovereignty,

449
00:33:40.760 --> 00:33:44.040
we covered that quite a bit, and, of course, they're important. But,

450
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:48.380
coming up with business with ethical monetization

451
00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:49.900
business models,

452
00:33:50.845 --> 00:33:52.544
is extremely important

453
00:33:53.164 --> 00:33:54.385
on Noster. And,

454
00:33:55.965 --> 00:34:00.465
I'm I'm glad to see that there are other services out there that are essentially,

455
00:34:01.725 --> 00:34:03.904
looking to monetize in the same way.

456
00:34:04.684 --> 00:34:06.730
I haven't seen any, I think,

457
00:34:07.370 --> 00:34:07.870
advertising

458
00:34:08.250 --> 00:34:10.670
based businesses. I'm sure there will be some eventually.

459
00:34:11.450 --> 00:34:14.510
But what's interesting is that they'll they'll be competing

460
00:34:14.810 --> 00:34:19.710
against Primal and others who are not monetizing through advertising.

461
00:34:20.650 --> 00:34:21.150
We

462
00:34:21.465 --> 00:34:24.845
were monetizing through best possible UX for our users.

463
00:34:26.025 --> 00:34:29.725
So Love it. Let's see what happens. I'm kind of excited.

464
00:34:30.505 --> 00:34:32.445
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely gonna be

465
00:34:34.510 --> 00:34:38.230
advertising models bolted on top of Nostr from other players.

466
00:34:38.670 --> 00:34:39.170
But

467
00:34:40.350 --> 00:34:42.530
it'll be a beautiful free market, and

468
00:34:42.830 --> 00:34:47.330
users will have options and and be able to choose which path they wanna go down.

469
00:34:48.935 --> 00:34:52.075
Okay. So can we talk about primal legends? What is primal legends?

470
00:34:52.775 --> 00:34:54.235
Let's do it. So

471
00:34:55.255 --> 00:34:58.955
primal legends is like a higher tier than primal premium,

472
00:34:59.735 --> 00:35:00.235
and,

473
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:03.300
it wasn't my idea, really.

474
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:05.700
I spent,

475
00:35:06.720 --> 00:35:08.900
some time with Gigi a couple of months ago,

476
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:14.980
and he was adamant about this idea that this there's the kind of the concept there.

477
00:35:15.585 --> 00:35:18.165
Basically, the argument he was making was

478
00:35:18.945 --> 00:35:22.405
that there are people on Noster who are willing to pay

479
00:35:22.705 --> 00:35:25.685
way more than $7 a month,

480
00:35:26.945 --> 00:35:28.805
in order to support the project

481
00:35:29.690 --> 00:35:31.710
and that we should let them.

482
00:35:32.570 --> 00:35:37.150
And not only should we let them, but we should recognize them in such some kind of way.

483
00:35:38.330 --> 00:35:38.830
And,

484
00:35:39.770 --> 00:35:43.755
I'm I'm glad that he convinced me, to do this,

485
00:35:44.714 --> 00:35:48.414
because that's turning out to be the case. Nostr is a very,

486
00:35:49.194 --> 00:35:50.654
very special community.

487
00:35:50.954 --> 00:35:56.010
It's it's a very special user base to build for and kinda launch products for.

488
00:35:57.050 --> 00:35:58.750
Nostra users yes.

489
00:35:59.290 --> 00:36:00.030
We're not,

490
00:36:01.050 --> 00:36:06.990
massive in numbers yet. You know, probably we're looking maybe a couple 100000 people who are active on Nostra.

491
00:36:08.570 --> 00:36:09.550
But this

492
00:36:11.185 --> 00:36:15.765
initial cohort of of Nostar users that we have currently are extremely passionate,

493
00:36:16.705 --> 00:36:18.244
extremely mission driven.

494
00:36:20.625 --> 00:36:23.525
Our users are as mission driven as

495
00:36:23.910 --> 00:36:30.230
we, the developers, are, I would say. And it's very interesting to build for this community because, like, you get,

496
00:36:32.230 --> 00:36:33.450
extremely competent,

497
00:36:33.990 --> 00:36:34.490
intelligent,

498
00:36:35.190 --> 00:36:37.369
high conviction people as your customers.

499
00:36:38.394 --> 00:36:44.494
And, in many cases, they are quite technically savvy, so the feedback we get is is very precise

500
00:36:45.275 --> 00:36:50.174
many times when it comes to kind of identifying the problems and kind of making the product better.

501
00:36:50.730 --> 00:36:51.230
And,

502
00:36:51.850 --> 00:36:54.750
you know, many of them are not, like, developers themselves,

503
00:36:55.290 --> 00:37:01.070
and they're looking at ways to contribute to kind of growing Noster and making Noster better.

504
00:37:01.690 --> 00:37:02.190
And,

505
00:37:03.384 --> 00:37:07.685
they we already in just a few days that we've had this,

506
00:37:08.945 --> 00:37:09.445
available,

507
00:37:10.065 --> 00:37:10.565
we've,

508
00:37:11.665 --> 00:37:12.565
we've had

509
00:37:13.665 --> 00:37:15.120
more than I would expect.

510
00:37:15.600 --> 00:37:18.660
People kind of find this feature, which is,

511
00:37:19.120 --> 00:37:28.260
is not kind of super visible in the user interface. You kind of have to buy premium, and then there is, like, a link somewhere saying, hey. Are you enjoying Primal?

512
00:37:28.845 --> 00:37:31.025
Find out how you can support us further.

513
00:37:31.325 --> 00:37:34.945
And then you click through that, and then you find this kind of legend,

514
00:37:35.725 --> 00:37:36.465
kind of,

515
00:37:37.725 --> 00:37:41.025
purchase, option and go from there. So

516
00:37:42.160 --> 00:37:46.980
there's a number of our users to who have found this and went ahead and,

517
00:37:47.520 --> 00:37:49.700
you know, bought the legend tier,

518
00:37:50.640 --> 00:37:52.260
just so they can support us.

519
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:53.860
And,

520
00:37:54.355 --> 00:38:00.855
you know, the the name Legend was a little bit of a tongue in cheek kind of, kind of positioning.

521
00:38:01.955 --> 00:38:02.455
But

522
00:38:02.835 --> 00:38:07.335
now I'm like, after having interacted with some of these users,

523
00:38:07.780 --> 00:38:10.360
I think the label is appropriate. Like,

524
00:38:10.660 --> 00:38:12.680
going back and forth. No. I'm serious, man.

525
00:38:13.620 --> 00:38:14.260
They are,

526
00:38:15.380 --> 00:38:25.245
they really are legends. They're like, no. I know exactly what I'm doing. Yes. I'm, you know, this I'm overpaying for, like, 10 years of primal premium. But, like, I'm making a bet

527
00:38:25.705 --> 00:38:26.445
in you

528
00:38:26.985 --> 00:38:31.085
and your team that you guys will are going to continue building this,

529
00:38:31.705 --> 00:38:33.405
and I'm willing to do this.

530
00:38:34.185 --> 00:38:36.720
To you know, a a few times I've heard

531
00:38:38.720 --> 00:38:40.340
from them, like, I'm not a developer. This is how I'm going to help.

532
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.619
Through a master adoption to cut products and so forth.

533
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:46.900
So,

534
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:49.940
that's what primal legends are.

535
00:38:50.720 --> 00:38:50.970
And,

536
00:38:52.585 --> 00:38:53.885
when it comes to,

537
00:38:54.185 --> 00:38:55.245
you know, the the

538
00:38:56.345 --> 00:38:57.725
the halo that you mentioned,

539
00:38:58.105 --> 00:39:00.925
that's the that's the idea that Gigi was,

540
00:39:01.625 --> 00:39:03.645
advising us to do where we should somehow,

541
00:39:05.225 --> 00:39:06.265
recognize these,

542
00:39:06.745 --> 00:39:10.390
contributors to like, significant contributors to Primal

543
00:39:10.769 --> 00:39:13.910
and give them the ability to further customize their profile,

544
00:39:15.009 --> 00:39:15.509
and,

545
00:39:15.890 --> 00:39:23.990
which is optional, by the way. If if you want to not stand out, that's the default. Right? So you you can be a part of the legend here

546
00:39:24.635 --> 00:39:25.035
and,

547
00:39:25.595 --> 00:39:34.655
not stand out publicly. But then if you want to customize it, there's a pretty easy way to do so. So by becoming a legend, you get a never expiring subscription.

548
00:39:35.435 --> 00:39:38.815
So you're you get a forever subscription. Lifetime subscription.

549
00:39:40.110 --> 00:39:40.610
And,

550
00:39:41.790 --> 00:39:44.130
you get more media storage

551
00:39:44.430 --> 00:39:45.090
and this,

552
00:39:45.950 --> 00:39:46.530
you know,

553
00:39:47.870 --> 00:39:49.730
profile customization options.

554
00:39:50.190 --> 00:39:53.890
And this has been we've received quite a bit of good feedback

555
00:39:54.190 --> 00:39:55.330
about this already.

556
00:39:55.925 --> 00:39:58.185
So that now we know this is a thing,

557
00:39:58.965 --> 00:40:03.224
and we're going to lean into it way harder. And we're already working on making,

558
00:40:03.765 --> 00:40:06.185
like, expanding the profile customization

559
00:40:06.565 --> 00:40:09.705
capabilities, not just for legends, but also for premium users.

560
00:40:10.805 --> 00:40:11.305
So

561
00:40:11.750 --> 00:40:14.730
we're going to make this awesome in the next update.

562
00:40:15.349 --> 00:40:16.089
Love it.

563
00:40:17.910 --> 00:40:18.410
Legendary.

564
00:40:19.510 --> 00:40:19.910
I,

565
00:40:22.069 --> 00:40:24.375
on the media piece, by the way, just

566
00:40:24.935 --> 00:40:27.595
out we're about to leave the premium section of the show.

567
00:40:27.895 --> 00:40:29.195
But on the media piece,

568
00:40:29.495 --> 00:40:36.155
like, to be clear, like, once you're a premium subscriber, you don't have to be a Legend subscriber. You can scroll through all of your media, and you can

569
00:40:36.535 --> 00:40:39.435
copy the links of the old media or you can delete media

570
00:40:39.830 --> 00:40:42.810
that you've already uploaded, which is just a very clean UX.

571
00:40:43.590 --> 00:40:52.010
I do have a question for you, and I guess I could have asked this offline. And maybe I did ask you already. It does it strip metadata when you upload a photo or video?

572
00:40:52.445 --> 00:40:52.945
Yeah.

573
00:40:53.485 --> 00:41:01.185
Okay. So primal media servers strip metadata when you upload there. That's important, Peaks, because if you're just uploading media onto Nasr

574
00:41:01.645 --> 00:41:07.505
and metadata isn't being stripped, it can have, like, location information, like what device you took the photo with.

575
00:41:08.550 --> 00:41:12.890
I'm a crazy person, so regardless, I've just always stripped my data personally.

576
00:41:14.630 --> 00:41:17.130
But, yeah, that's a good that's a good practice. Okay.

577
00:41:17.430 --> 00:41:20.090
Are you good with us moving on from premium now?

578
00:41:20.735 --> 00:41:21.235
Sure.

579
00:41:21.775 --> 00:41:24.595
Okay. Let's go to Reeds. What is Reeds?

580
00:41:25.935 --> 00:41:26.835
So Reeds

581
00:41:27.135 --> 00:41:28.355
is the,

582
00:41:29.055 --> 00:41:31.235
is a brand new section on Primal,

583
00:41:31.615 --> 00:41:32.435
which covers,

584
00:41:33.530 --> 00:41:36.750
long form content on Nostril, long form textual content.

585
00:41:37.210 --> 00:41:39.869
So it's the type of content that people have usually,

586
00:41:41.050 --> 00:41:42.030
used applications

587
00:41:42.330 --> 00:41:43.550
like, Highlighter

588
00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:46.430
or Habla News or Yaki Hani

589
00:41:46.730 --> 00:41:47.230
or,

590
00:41:47.664 --> 00:41:51.125
I think, there was, like, a blog stack. There there are multiple

591
00:41:51.505 --> 00:41:53.204
Nastr clients that specialize

592
00:41:53.664 --> 00:41:54.164
in,

593
00:41:55.265 --> 00:41:59.924
long form content. So essentially, these are sub stack or medium, but with Nastr.

594
00:42:00.570 --> 00:42:04.350
Exactly. So I was just going to say these are, like, substack andmedium competitors.

595
00:42:06.170 --> 00:42:07.230
Why I think,

596
00:42:08.090 --> 00:42:10.910
this type of content is extremely important,

597
00:42:12.010 --> 00:42:15.550
on Oster is that it allows us to add

598
00:42:16.105 --> 00:42:16.605
nuance

599
00:42:16.905 --> 00:42:18.445
into the public discourse.

600
00:42:18.905 --> 00:42:21.005
I think Oster has the best,

601
00:42:21.865 --> 00:42:24.525
foundation to become the global town square.

602
00:42:25.545 --> 00:42:26.765
The micro blogging

603
00:42:27.065 --> 00:42:31.880
type of features are already there and the the open network and, you know, every

604
00:42:32.180 --> 00:42:35.960
all every event getting signed that you get this sort of authenticity,

605
00:42:37.220 --> 00:42:38.839
as a part of it is

606
00:42:39.299 --> 00:42:41.640
exactly the type of foundation that's needed

607
00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:46.395
to for for a protocol to to become a global town square.

608
00:42:47.355 --> 00:42:48.095
But what's,

609
00:42:48.555 --> 00:42:52.335
what makes it even more powerful is when you can

610
00:42:53.115 --> 00:42:53.615
meaningfully

611
00:42:53.915 --> 00:42:54.415
integrate

612
00:42:55.115 --> 00:43:01.810
long form content into these these types of user experiences where, you know, there's only so much,

613
00:43:02.930 --> 00:43:05.030
context, and there's only so much,

614
00:43:05.810 --> 00:43:07.990
information you can pack in a microblogging

615
00:43:08.690 --> 00:43:09.190
note.

616
00:43:10.850 --> 00:43:12.230
More nuanced discussions

617
00:43:12.770 --> 00:43:13.270
require,

618
00:43:13.730 --> 00:43:15.430
you know, long form content.

619
00:43:16.425 --> 00:43:16.905
So,

620
00:43:17.385 --> 00:43:19.225
at Primal, we wanted to,

621
00:43:19.545 --> 00:43:22.125
make long form content of 1st class citizen

622
00:43:22.425 --> 00:43:25.965
within the application. So, like I said, it gets its own tab.

623
00:43:26.345 --> 00:43:27.165
But also,

624
00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:31.500
we wanted to cover all of the interactions,

625
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:34.380
in a way that,

626
00:43:35.160 --> 00:43:39.099
that they can surface into your kind of social media,

627
00:43:39.560 --> 00:43:40.780
micro blogging feeds

628
00:43:41.240 --> 00:43:41.900
as appropriate

629
00:43:42.625 --> 00:43:49.125
so that your your social media feeds, become a discovery mechanism for long form content.

630
00:43:49.585 --> 00:43:50.565
So for example,

631
00:43:51.985 --> 00:43:52.725
if you

632
00:43:53.185 --> 00:43:56.485
go through a long form content feed and you select an article,

633
00:43:57.640 --> 00:43:58.460
You can,

634
00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:02.300
you can highlight any section of the article,

635
00:44:02.680 --> 00:44:03.420
in primal

636
00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:04.540
that creates

637
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:08.940
a nostril highlight event that's visible in any nostril

638
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:11.340
client that supports highlight events.

639
00:44:11.835 --> 00:44:14.335
But then you can select that highlight and say quote

640
00:44:15.195 --> 00:44:17.855
and post a note with a comment,

641
00:44:18.475 --> 00:44:20.975
and that will appear in your microblogging

642
00:44:21.355 --> 00:44:25.055
feed as a short note with a quoted highlight

643
00:44:25.539 --> 00:44:29.480
and the link to the long form article. So it'll be very

644
00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:34.339
clear to the users of your, you know, the the viewers of your,

645
00:44:35.460 --> 00:44:44.885
short form note what it what it is that you did there. So you highlighted some a part of the article. You had your own comment there, and you link to the article itself.

646
00:44:45.665 --> 00:44:49.445
So I think in the last few days since we launched,

647
00:44:50.305 --> 00:44:52.965
Primal 2.0 with, Reads integration,

648
00:44:53.345 --> 00:44:57.120
it I don't know if you would agree, Matt, but it feels like the,

649
00:44:57.600 --> 00:45:00.100
long form content is getting a lot more

650
00:45:00.560 --> 00:45:01.060
views

651
00:45:01.600 --> 00:45:03.700
and a lot more a lot more response.

652
00:45:04.080 --> 00:45:10.385
No one wants to leave the app. Right? You you want it all integrated. And then also just the discovery of

653
00:45:10.725 --> 00:45:11.225
of,

654
00:45:11.565 --> 00:45:15.265
you know, micro quote unquote microblogging, like tweet style

655
00:45:15.805 --> 00:45:19.585
feeds is is key. Right? Like, I mean and you see that, like,

656
00:45:19.980 --> 00:45:21.920
even when users don't have the tools,

657
00:45:22.460 --> 00:45:34.160
they tend to go that route where they'll they'll send out they'll send out a post that's like, check out this article with a link. Right? And to have it actually nicely integrated into the UX where it's first class citizen.

658
00:45:34.585 --> 00:45:37.485
I mean, I'm not a big I don't write long form,

659
00:45:38.105 --> 00:45:39.645
really. I just do podcasts

660
00:45:39.945 --> 00:45:41.485
and shitpost. But,

661
00:45:42.985 --> 00:45:55.960
I I can I I I I I do like consuming it and reading it and and participating in it? And that's a key element of the discovery you want it as as part of this. And this is what I think people don't realize

662
00:45:56.340 --> 00:46:01.400
where they say, like, Nostr is so much more than a Twitter competitor or I like

663
00:46:02.020 --> 00:46:03.720
I I like Nostr the protocol,

664
00:46:04.145 --> 00:46:07.204
but I I don't like, you know, Noster, the social

665
00:46:07.744 --> 00:46:16.005
aspect. And it's all it's all important together. Like, it's it's we're we're we're building we're building the network via short ship posts.

666
00:46:16.750 --> 00:46:22.130
And but it all needs to be connected together. Otherwise, you don't have something that's actually useful to users.

667
00:46:23.630 --> 00:46:24.130
100%.

668
00:46:27.390 --> 00:46:29.330
Yeah. I mean, I think the reads is

669
00:46:30.425 --> 00:46:32.845
pretty awesome, and I love that it's got, like, a dedicated,

670
00:46:33.145 --> 00:46:35.725
you know, feed system in the in the app.

671
00:46:36.185 --> 00:46:39.405
So you can basically, like, move into your sub stack world,

672
00:46:40.265 --> 00:46:42.365
or move back into your x world,

673
00:46:43.410 --> 00:46:45.910
which I think is very clever. I actually realized,

674
00:46:47.570 --> 00:46:53.109
and I know, for example, if you've been listening for a while, you know this is how I function. I move back and forth a lot.

675
00:46:53.650 --> 00:47:03.914
On the premium section, there's 2 things that I wanted to cover that we didn't cover. First of all, if you're a premium user you have a special relay that you have access to, right? The premium relay,

676
00:47:04.694 --> 00:47:18.109
which is once again like who will run the relays, right? Well, it's like if you're a paying user, you have this nice premium relay that only premium users can write to, but anyone can read from. So it doesn't mat you could be a non premium user using Domus or Amethyst

677
00:47:18.410 --> 00:47:19.150
or Coracle,

678
00:47:19.529 --> 00:47:25.035
and you can still pull from the premium relay, but only premium users are posting to it.

679
00:47:25.595 --> 00:47:28.095
And then the second piece is there's some,

680
00:47:30.155 --> 00:47:34.575
let's just talk about for a second why why if if someone's using iOS,

681
00:47:35.194 --> 00:47:38.974
why can't they pay for premium with Sats in the app?

682
00:47:40.690 --> 00:47:44.130
Oh, what's the old app store rules? Yeah.

683
00:47:44.450 --> 00:47:48.630
Once you have once you're trying to monetize something within the app,

684
00:47:49.090 --> 00:47:51.105
Apple and Google won't want their cut.

685
00:47:52.891 --> 00:47:54.645
It's it's as simple as that. So,

686
00:47:55.665 --> 00:47:57.685
we do have those in app purchases.

687
00:47:58.865 --> 00:48:03.925
In in all honesty, they're quite convenient for the end user. You're literally in 2 taps,

688
00:48:04.470 --> 00:48:05.770
you become a premium

689
00:48:06.070 --> 00:48:09.210
subscriber. So that's nice. And then you get like,

690
00:48:09.590 --> 00:48:21.785
people manage so many subscriptions, and you necessarily don't want the cognitive overhead of tracking different types of UIs to cancel the subscription and so forth. So both Apple and Google do a good job,

691
00:48:22.485 --> 00:48:24.665
to provide users with that kind of UX.

692
00:48:26.085 --> 00:48:27.785
So this is the reason why,

693
00:48:28.485 --> 00:48:30.905
if if you're iOS or Android

694
00:48:31.205 --> 00:48:39.990
and you wish to subscribe to to premium through the app, that's the only option. It's Apple Pay or Google Pay. Exactly.

695
00:48:40.530 --> 00:48:44.950
And then, of course, on our web app, you can pay us with SaaS directly.

696
00:48:46.585 --> 00:48:47.245
And it

697
00:48:47.625 --> 00:48:51.645
we don't say this. Well, I'm hoping it's obvious. If you have a primal

698
00:48:51.945 --> 00:48:58.685
premium subscription, it's active for you in all of our apps. So for example, if you use our web app to buy,

699
00:48:59.065 --> 00:48:59.965
primal premium,

700
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:03.860
the moment you log in to any of the mobile apps, your Primal Premium,

701
00:49:04.720 --> 00:49:06.500
account will be active immediately.

702
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:09.220
There's nothing else for you to do.

703
00:49:09.520 --> 00:49:14.984
And if somehow you made it this far in this show and you don't know how to sign in on Primalweb,

704
00:49:15.365 --> 00:49:16.425
you need a,

705
00:49:17.205 --> 00:49:23.385
browser extension, and I recommend the no s two x extension, which is maintained by fiat jeff.

706
00:49:24.724 --> 00:49:30.020
So you install that extension. You put your private key in in that extent extension,

707
00:49:30.640 --> 00:49:32.740
and then that's how you sign in via web,

708
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:37.620
which is not immediately obvious. Like, we probably should do a better

709
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.060
job with that.

710
00:49:39.680 --> 00:49:41.840
I agree. I agree. That's one of the,

711
00:49:42.425 --> 00:49:49.244
parts of the primal stack that needs, the most work. You sort of need to walk people through this completely nonintuitive,

712
00:49:51.785 --> 00:49:53.565
concept that you need to install

713
00:49:54.345 --> 00:49:55.565
an extension to

714
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:57.140
log in securely.

715
00:49:57.599 --> 00:49:59.940
We do, provide a way to,

716
00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:01.859
you to log in to Primal,

717
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:06.099
without using an extension that's less secure,

718
00:50:06.640 --> 00:50:09.875
where you can kind of paste your end second, provide,

719
00:50:10.335 --> 00:50:11.475
kind of like a,

720
00:50:12.255 --> 00:50:16.675
PIN or any sort of code to encrypt that and sec locally with.

721
00:50:17.375 --> 00:50:17.875
But,

722
00:50:18.735 --> 00:50:28.170
using the extension is much more secure, and that's the recommended way. I didn't even realize you offered that. Yeah. We do. We do. Use the extension, freaks.

723
00:50:28.710 --> 00:50:29.849
No s 2 x.

724
00:50:30.390 --> 00:50:30.890
Okay.

725
00:50:32.550 --> 00:50:33.050
Next,

726
00:50:33.430 --> 00:50:35.369
Feed Marketplace. What is the Feed Marketplace?

727
00:50:38.005 --> 00:50:44.425
So feed marketplace is probably one of the most exciting features of of Nostra, at least to me.

728
00:50:45.445 --> 00:50:45.945
It's

729
00:50:46.245 --> 00:50:49.305
not anything that we invented at Primal.

730
00:50:50.390 --> 00:50:52.570
The core tech behind the

731
00:50:52.870 --> 00:50:58.330
feed marketplace that we plugged plugged into was invented by Pablo well over a year ago

732
00:50:58.790 --> 00:51:00.650
using the DVM spec.

733
00:51:01.350 --> 00:51:06.065
The the data vending machine spec is quite powerful. It can do all kinds of things,

734
00:51:06.365 --> 00:51:08.705
including creating custom feeds. So,

735
00:51:11.165 --> 00:51:12.865
few months after this invention,

736
00:51:14.045 --> 00:51:19.920
some people created some feeds, and they kind of created a spec for for kind of publishing a special event,

737
00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:24.560
signaling to the network. Then then now the there's this feed that exists

738
00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:26.720
that people can plug into.

739
00:51:27.020 --> 00:51:30.400
And the feed itself just, like, gives the list of note addresses,

740
00:51:30.780 --> 00:51:31.680
the note IDs.

741
00:51:32.175 --> 00:51:37.695
That's it. And then it's up to clients to figure out what to do with those, and every client is capable of,

742
00:51:38.255 --> 00:51:40.675
showing a list of notes based on those IDs.

743
00:51:41.055 --> 00:51:43.315
So it's extremely lightweight and simple.

744
00:51:44.410 --> 00:51:44.910
And,

745
00:51:46.330 --> 00:51:46.990
it was

746
00:51:47.610 --> 00:51:56.030
grassroots like many great things in Oster. You know, Pablo created the spec, then some devs were tinkering with it. People created a few feeds,

747
00:51:56.330 --> 00:51:58.110
and then a few clients,

748
00:51:59.615 --> 00:52:00.675
integrated those,

749
00:52:01.135 --> 00:52:01.954
the kind of

750
00:52:02.415 --> 00:52:07.795
this into their UI. And the clients were Coracle, which is has very,

751
00:52:08.655 --> 00:52:09.555
kind of capable,

752
00:52:10.415 --> 00:52:11.395
custom feed,

753
00:52:11.935 --> 00:52:12.435
features.

754
00:52:13.160 --> 00:52:16.220
And DVM feeds are just a subset of Coracle,

755
00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:23.880
you know, custom feeds. So I encourage people to check the that's quite wild what,

756
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.380
Huddl bot came up with there.

757
00:52:26.680 --> 00:52:27.820
So Coracle,

758
00:52:28.395 --> 00:52:28.895
Amethyst,

759
00:52:30.235 --> 00:52:30.975
no strudel,

760
00:52:31.355 --> 00:52:33.615
probably some other clients that I'm not

761
00:52:33.915 --> 00:52:35.135
not even aware of,

762
00:52:36.235 --> 00:52:40.335
integrated this feed list, feed marketplace into their UIs.

763
00:52:41.675 --> 00:52:42.895
And then we

764
00:52:43.450 --> 00:52:45.470
we kind of we, from Primal,

765
00:52:45.850 --> 00:52:47.870
observed this thing emerging

766
00:52:49.050 --> 00:52:50.510
organically on Aster.

767
00:52:51.210 --> 00:52:53.470
And this is so magical, man. Like, it's

768
00:52:53.770 --> 00:52:54.270
like

769
00:52:54.650 --> 00:52:56.110
there's no central planning.

770
00:52:56.490 --> 00:52:57.950
There's no central coordination.

771
00:52:58.974 --> 00:53:01.234
So people come up with stuff, like Paolo,

772
00:53:01.695 --> 00:53:04.675
then developers either pick it up or don't.

773
00:53:05.214 --> 00:53:06.515
Some things get published.

774
00:53:07.295 --> 00:53:08.275
A few clients

775
00:53:08.895 --> 00:53:11.070
find it interesting and integrate it.

776
00:53:11.470 --> 00:53:13.970
And next thing you know, there is maybe critical mass.

777
00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:15.170
And,

778
00:53:16.910 --> 00:53:21.650
at Primal, we just looked at this and we're like, yeah. This is exactly what we want to do.

779
00:53:22.270 --> 00:53:26.290
And then we leaned into it all the way from Primal.

780
00:53:26.775 --> 00:53:29.755
So we did 3 things to support this.

781
00:53:30.295 --> 00:53:33.275
The first thing is, like I already said, we rearchitected

782
00:53:33.734 --> 00:53:35.674
our entire application shell

783
00:53:36.454 --> 00:53:39.350
to be able to support any number of

784
00:53:39.730 --> 00:53:40.790
feeds and easy

785
00:53:41.170 --> 00:53:41.670
reorganization

786
00:53:42.130 --> 00:53:47.110
of feed and setting the default feed and all that. Like, we wanted the app itself to be

787
00:53:47.490 --> 00:53:52.550
capable of being fully flexible when it comes to management of feeds.

788
00:53:53.315 --> 00:53:54.215
And as I mentioned,

789
00:53:54.595 --> 00:53:57.255
this pertains to the home tab

790
00:53:57.635 --> 00:53:59.175
as well as the reads tab.

791
00:54:00.675 --> 00:54:01.175
Then,

792
00:54:01.875 --> 00:54:02.375
we

793
00:54:03.715 --> 00:54:06.455
expose the feed marketplace user interface

794
00:54:06.950 --> 00:54:07.450
in

795
00:54:07.750 --> 00:54:14.710
within the app when you go to kind of manage your feeds. Right there, you can kind of add a custom feed, and we give you the the user

796
00:54:15.589 --> 00:54:19.130
the the kind of user interface to browse the feeds that have been published.

797
00:54:20.545 --> 00:54:26.325
So you can tap into that, get the preview of the feed. If you like what you see, you can add it to your home feeds, let's say.

798
00:54:26.705 --> 00:54:38.630
And then it's there. You can reorganize. You can reorder. May maybe set that as your as your main feed. So when you think about it, it's like the polar opposite of a walled garden

799
00:54:39.009 --> 00:54:39.509
here.

800
00:54:40.130 --> 00:54:41.829
So you can literally

801
00:54:42.369 --> 00:54:48.515
remove all primal feeds if if you don't like them. You can go to the feed marketplace,

802
00:54:48.895 --> 00:54:50.195
pick the feeds you like,

803
00:54:50.655 --> 00:54:54.515
and set any of them as your main feed, and that's your

804
00:54:54.815 --> 00:54:55.955
UX on primal.

805
00:54:56.335 --> 00:54:58.515
It has nothing to do with what primal is,

806
00:54:59.135 --> 00:55:04.740
serving out in terms of feeds. That's, like, not only possible, but it's super easy to do.

807
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:09.940
And then the third thing we did is since at Primal, we we

808
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:14.020
we build clients and we run services,

809
00:55:14.445 --> 00:55:14.945
So

810
00:55:15.245 --> 00:55:17.345
we we create our own feeds as well.

811
00:55:18.525 --> 00:55:25.185
We decided that every feed that we create is, we're going to publish to the feed marketplace as well.

812
00:55:25.645 --> 00:55:26.145
So,

813
00:55:27.450 --> 00:55:34.190
and we've done that, and we're going to continue doing that. We're preparing some very interesting feeds in the coming weeks.

814
00:55:34.570 --> 00:55:35.070
So,

815
00:55:35.690 --> 00:55:37.790
you know, be on the lookout for that.

816
00:55:38.570 --> 00:55:41.230
And what's nice is that we can

817
00:55:41.875 --> 00:55:42.375
improve

818
00:55:42.755 --> 00:55:45.335
or add value to the entire Nostra protocol

819
00:55:45.715 --> 00:55:47.255
by publishing a new feed.

820
00:55:48.035 --> 00:55:55.095
It comes it becomes available in Primal, but it also becomes available in any Nostra client that supports a DBM feed marketplace.

821
00:55:56.310 --> 00:55:59.370
So, you know, if you're using Amethyst or Coracle or Nostrudl,

822
00:55:59.830 --> 00:56:01.210
you have access to that.

823
00:56:01.670 --> 00:56:03.370
And now that we have,

824
00:56:03.910 --> 00:56:04.570
you know,

825
00:56:06.790 --> 00:56:07.610
this capability,

826
00:56:08.710 --> 00:56:10.570
all of these products become

827
00:56:11.165 --> 00:56:11.665
better

828
00:56:12.045 --> 00:56:12.545
overnight

829
00:56:13.005 --> 00:56:13.984
almost without

830
00:56:14.285 --> 00:56:14.785
any,

831
00:56:15.085 --> 00:56:19.025
additional effort required by, the developer of those clients.

832
00:56:19.405 --> 00:56:20.865
In fact, like, it this

833
00:56:21.165 --> 00:56:21.984
fact blew

834
00:56:22.285 --> 00:56:24.545
our mind, like, when Pablo and I were

835
00:56:25.070 --> 00:56:28.930
preparing to do a talk in in Riga on this specific topic.

836
00:56:29.310 --> 00:56:33.090
They were having dinner, and we went to the hotel room to work on the slides.

837
00:56:33.870 --> 00:56:38.050
And we realized that our slides were already out of date from from

838
00:56:38.510 --> 00:56:39.650
from the day before

839
00:56:40.335 --> 00:56:40.835
because,

840
00:56:41.775 --> 00:56:49.795
we were going to use the no strudel client to show the list of feeds. And then we looked went to the client and we realized, oh, there's another feed.

841
00:56:50.494 --> 00:56:53.715
No strudel just got better while we were at dinner.

842
00:56:55.470 --> 00:56:56.850
And and the developer

843
00:56:57.230 --> 00:56:57.730
of,

844
00:56:58.670 --> 00:56:59.170
Nostradle

845
00:56:59.470 --> 00:57:00.930
Hazard was with us.

846
00:57:02.350 --> 00:57:04.050
So we were all having dinner,

847
00:57:04.430 --> 00:57:06.530
and his product got better

848
00:57:07.070 --> 00:57:08.210
because he

849
00:57:08.510 --> 00:57:09.010
supported

850
00:57:09.310 --> 00:57:13.875
feed marketplace at that point. So we it was one of those, like, mind blown moments.

851
00:57:14.494 --> 00:57:14.994
And,

852
00:57:15.454 --> 00:57:17.474
the situation I was at bed and dinner. Right?

853
00:57:17.935 --> 00:57:19.954
Yeah. You were there. Exactly. Yeah.

854
00:57:20.335 --> 00:57:24.480
Shout out Milian. He, he paid for dinner that night. I sure

855
00:57:24.980 --> 00:57:25.480
did.

856
00:57:26.980 --> 00:57:27.480
So,

857
00:57:28.140 --> 00:57:29.280
yeah, that was crazy.

858
00:57:29.580 --> 00:57:30.640
It it kind of,

859
00:57:31.100 --> 00:57:31.600
it

860
00:57:32.060 --> 00:57:37.120
it was one of those moments where you realize that it's the openness of the protocol

861
00:57:38.285 --> 00:57:42.705
that's going to make Noster win. It's I don't think it's necessarily

862
00:57:43.005 --> 00:57:51.900
censorship resistance and user sovereignty and all those things. Like, they are extremely important, of course. That's the the foundation and the the core

863
00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:55.820
user base of the protocol. Basically, everyone on us today

864
00:57:56.120 --> 00:57:57.580
cares about that a lot.

865
00:57:57.880 --> 00:58:00.460
You know, the general public doesn't

866
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:02.540
necessarily yet anyway,

867
00:58:03.365 --> 00:58:07.865
but they do care about high quality content and and high quality apps.

868
00:58:08.405 --> 00:58:13.224
And we're inevitably going to have those things because of the openness of the protocol.

869
00:58:13.845 --> 00:58:18.829
So can't help but, like, be bullish about this. I mean, it's basically this open verifiable

870
00:58:19.130 --> 00:58:26.910
API for the world. You can just build on it without permission. No one can stop you. Sky's the limit. And then you get all these other benefits

871
00:58:27.690 --> 00:58:31.150
on on top of it that that almost become like side effects.

872
00:58:31.725 --> 00:58:36.625
But I mean, I think that's why we've seen such a viral organic growing developer community

873
00:58:37.005 --> 00:58:38.465
on Nostr is because

874
00:58:38.925 --> 00:58:40.225
everywhere else you look,

875
00:58:40.845 --> 00:58:42.465
you're basically building on quicksand.

876
00:58:42.765 --> 00:58:45.585
But with Nostr, you're building on this incredibly strong

877
00:58:46.490 --> 00:58:48.349
open API, this strong foundation.

878
00:58:49.690 --> 00:58:50.589
I just wanna

879
00:58:51.050 --> 00:58:56.030
like, this is another example, by the way, of just packaging all this stuff into primal 2.0

880
00:58:56.970 --> 00:58:58.349
that I I feel like

881
00:58:58.845 --> 00:58:59.985
people don't appreciate

882
00:59:00.925 --> 00:59:01.585
the power

883
00:59:02.605 --> 00:59:07.105
that is available here. Like, you can if you use if you use TikTok,

884
00:59:07.645 --> 00:59:12.785
like, the CCP chooses your algorithm. If you use Instagram or Facebook, Zuck chooses the algorithm.

885
00:59:13.460 --> 00:59:16.279
If if you use x, Elon chooses the algorithm.

886
00:59:16.579 --> 00:59:17.640
If you use Nostr,

887
00:59:18.019 --> 00:59:18.920
you can choose

888
00:59:19.299 --> 00:59:27.345
a 1000000 different algorithms. You can choose no algorithm. You can create your own algorithm and then other people can choose it. And it doesn't matter which app you use.

889
00:59:27.825 --> 00:59:28.385
You have

890
00:59:28.705 --> 00:59:35.605
as long as the app supports these feed marketplaces, you can use it in any app. You can switch between apps and you'll get that same

891
00:59:35.984 --> 00:59:38.244
that that same feed that you would get otherwise.

892
00:59:38.785 --> 00:59:43.010
That is mind blowing. That is that is something that is feels

893
00:59:43.310 --> 00:59:45.010
almost impossible to overstate,

894
00:59:46.110 --> 00:59:50.930
and it's gonna take people some time before because it's it's a paradigm shift. Right? It's a complete

895
00:59:51.390 --> 00:59:51.890
fundamentally

896
00:59:53.150 --> 00:59:53.650
fundamentally

897
00:59:54.030 --> 00:59:55.970
changes how you how you

898
00:59:56.385 --> 00:59:59.445
view, discover content, interact with content on the Internet.

899
01:00:00.385 --> 01:00:04.005
And it, like, breaks people's brains a little bit. They just don't even think that's possible.

900
01:00:05.425 --> 01:00:07.925
I agree. It's magical. And another

901
01:00:08.625 --> 01:00:15.760
aspect of the feed marketplace that I'm, that it's very exciting to me is that it's extremely easy to explain.

902
01:00:16.780 --> 01:00:19.760
And you can convey this message in 2 words,

903
01:00:20.220 --> 01:00:21.040
feed marketplace,

904
01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:24.000
and people will basically know what you mean.

905
01:00:24.620 --> 01:00:26.720
And it's such a crisp message

906
01:00:27.345 --> 01:00:28.565
that you can contrast

907
01:00:28.945 --> 01:00:29.445
this,

908
01:00:29.905 --> 01:00:31.925
against all the other closed networks.

909
01:00:32.785 --> 01:00:35.205
And you can say, well, you know, Twitter

910
01:00:35.665 --> 01:00:38.165
doesn't have and can't ever have,

911
01:00:38.625 --> 01:00:39.365
feed marketplace.

912
01:00:40.790 --> 01:00:43.850
Blue Sky, you guys are supposedly an open protocol.

913
01:00:44.550 --> 01:00:46.170
Where is your feed marketplace?

914
01:00:47.830 --> 01:00:52.170
It's it's such a simple, crisp message where you get this,

915
01:00:53.355 --> 01:00:55.675
you know, fundamental feature of,

916
01:00:56.555 --> 01:00:57.935
delivering user agency.

917
01:00:58.315 --> 01:00:59.855
You get to pick your algorithm,

918
01:01:01.675 --> 01:01:02.815
that only Noster

919
01:01:03.195 --> 01:01:04.335
has. And

920
01:01:04.715 --> 01:01:08.095
as far as I can tell, only Noster can have.

921
01:01:08.610 --> 01:01:09.270
It's wild.

922
01:01:10.930 --> 01:01:13.750
The one I kind of agree it's a good name,

923
01:01:14.210 --> 01:01:15.750
but when I hear feed marketplace

924
01:01:17.090 --> 01:01:20.070
usually, when I go to a marketplace, I have to pay money for things.

925
01:01:20.850 --> 01:01:24.694
And so as it stands right now, all these feeds are just available

926
01:01:25.474 --> 01:01:26.214
for free.

927
01:01:26.515 --> 01:01:34.375
You know, it's you you choose your own adventure for free. Are there gonna be paid feeds as well? Is that a is that part of the spec? I don't.

928
01:01:35.070 --> 01:01:38.370
That's definitely part of the spec, and we are contemplating

929
01:01:38.670 --> 01:01:40.830
some feeds at primal that,

930
01:01:41.150 --> 01:01:42.930
might be premium only feeds.

931
01:01:43.550 --> 01:01:44.050
So,

932
01:01:44.670 --> 01:01:46.050
we'll strive to,

933
01:01:46.510 --> 01:01:52.455
you know, publish most feeds as free feeds because at this stage of the game, we really want

934
01:01:52.835 --> 01:01:54.535
everyone to be able to,

935
01:01:54.995 --> 01:01:56.695
you know, as many people as possible

936
01:01:57.235 --> 01:02:01.280
to to enjoy as many feature features as we can deliver.

937
01:02:01.580 --> 01:02:05.920
But it might be interesting some of specialized feeds, some feeds that,

938
01:02:06.220 --> 01:02:08.000
maybe are more compute intensive.

939
01:02:09.500 --> 01:02:16.815
We can, we already have the technology. This could be rolled out easily where that those feeds would be available to,

940
01:02:17.215 --> 01:02:24.435
Primal Premium users only. And then you get a situation where you might get, like, a subset of our user base

941
01:02:24.815 --> 01:02:25.315
who

942
01:02:25.615 --> 01:02:26.115
necessarily

943
01:02:26.415 --> 01:02:29.875
don't find Primal clients to be their kind of

944
01:02:30.279 --> 01:02:38.460
preferred client of choice. They might wanna use maybe Amethyst on on, Android or so forth, but they might wanna use our premium feeds.

945
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:44.700
There might be some users out there who, would be willing to pay for some, features like that

946
01:02:45.115 --> 01:02:54.175
and still use them outside of the Primal clients. Right. It's it's crazy that we already have users of Primal who are not using Primal clients.

947
01:02:55.035 --> 01:02:56.895
Right. That's that's fascinating.

948
01:02:59.680 --> 01:03:02.340
It should be interesting to see how that market develops.

949
01:03:04.080 --> 01:03:06.420
Okay. Next, the explore tab.

950
01:03:07.520 --> 01:03:09.060
Cool. What is it?

951
01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:14.180
Right. So it's another kind of top level tab in primal 2.0

952
01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:15.225
just like

953
01:03:16.025 --> 01:03:16.925
reads tab.

954
01:03:17.465 --> 01:03:19.005
And the whole idea

955
01:03:19.305 --> 01:03:21.005
behind it was to,

956
01:03:22.585 --> 01:03:26.045
make Nostar content and user discovery easier.

957
01:03:26.585 --> 01:03:30.045
And it's still early days, but currently, it has,

958
01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:35.260
you know, several tabs. The default tab is the is the feed marketplace itself,

959
01:03:36.040 --> 01:03:38.780
which I think is appropriate because, like, if you want to explore,

960
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:45.260
probably a good place to start is to look at all the feeds that people have created out there. Right.

961
01:03:45.845 --> 01:03:50.905
So so that's the first tab, and then you can swipe over to the people tab,

962
01:03:51.444 --> 01:03:54.585
which will essentially show accounts you don't follow,

963
01:03:56.244 --> 01:04:02.140
that have gotten some level of engagement lately, that have gotten that the follow,

964
01:04:02.840 --> 01:04:03.900
number delta

965
01:04:04.600 --> 01:04:05.100
is,

966
01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:09.260
significant enough to show on that list. So people who

967
01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:12.060
So there's people who I don't follow

968
01:04:12.440 --> 01:04:14.460
that maybe I should be following?

969
01:04:15.255 --> 01:04:24.714
We're not as smart yet to know enough about you, based on your interests or whatever to tell you who you should be following command people there.

970
01:04:25.575 --> 01:04:33.080
We're hoping to get there in the next release where, you know, during onboarding, you do specify the interests there, and we can,

971
01:04:33.940 --> 01:04:37.960
publish that event to the Noster relays so that other clients can,

972
01:04:38.740 --> 01:04:44.025
utilize that in a way that doesn't docks you. So we can encrypt that,

973
01:04:44.405 --> 01:04:47.145
we're looking at that now. We can encrypt that,

974
01:04:47.765 --> 01:04:48.265
data

975
01:04:48.805 --> 01:04:49.305
and,

976
01:04:50.245 --> 01:04:51.445
make each client,

977
01:04:51.845 --> 01:04:52.085
available

978
01:04:53.045 --> 01:04:57.385
aware of it who can kinda decrypt this and use it to

979
01:04:57.819 --> 01:04:58.880
do smart things,

980
01:04:59.420 --> 01:05:01.280
you know, that relate to your interests.

981
01:05:01.980 --> 01:05:04.559
So it would be nice. We already have,

982
01:05:05.500 --> 01:05:07.119
kind of follow recommendations

983
01:05:07.819 --> 01:05:12.319
based on the types, the categories of content that you're interested in.

984
01:05:13.655 --> 01:05:14.715
During sign

985
01:05:15.255 --> 01:05:17.515
up, we could as that list expands,

986
01:05:17.975 --> 01:05:30.700
we could be smarter about it in the explore people tab to give you more relevant results. We're not there yet. So the way it currently works is we list people you don't follow,

987
01:05:31.560 --> 01:05:32.540
who've gotten

988
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:34.460
a lot of new follows lately.

989
01:05:36.120 --> 01:05:42.184
And it seems to work quite well because when there's a new account or a lot of people follow them or something,

990
01:05:43.285 --> 01:05:51.660
you know, like, there's maybe some drama around their account or an account that's not worthy for whatever reason, they tend to pop up on that list.

991
01:05:52.380 --> 01:05:56.319
And in my own usage of this feature, it kind of

992
01:05:56.619 --> 01:06:00.079
every time I went to that tab, there was something interesting for me

993
01:06:00.619 --> 01:06:05.359
to see, and, I ended up following a few people. So this is one of the

994
01:06:05.825 --> 01:06:13.285
common kind of original critiques of Noster going dating a few months back, you know, where people say, oh, it's impossible

995
01:06:13.585 --> 01:06:18.484
to find people or, you know, it's hard to figure out who to follow and so forth.

996
01:06:18.890 --> 01:06:23.310
So this tab of the explore section is kinda meant to improve

997
01:06:23.850 --> 01:06:25.390
that aspect of Nasr.

998
01:06:25.690 --> 01:06:26.510
Makes sense.

999
01:06:27.610 --> 01:06:30.030
Then the following tab is basically

1000
01:06:30.570 --> 01:06:42.615
top Zaps, the global top zaps. I forgot if we're doing it based on the last 24 hours or 48 hours. We should really label that so people know why these things are showing up there. But, essentially, we just

1001
01:06:43.255 --> 01:06:44.635
It's my favorite tab.

1002
01:06:44.935 --> 01:06:46.635
Yeah? Tell me about it.

1003
01:06:48.089 --> 01:06:58.190
I mean, people should zap more. Be the change you wanna see in the world. I just love scroll it it it kind of just knocks anyone who anyone who's like, no one uses Nasr,

1004
01:06:58.730 --> 01:07:08.714
just go to the zaps tab, and you just see generational wealth being transferred. This is like freedom money being sent between strangers on the Internet. Just, like, knocks you right off on your ass.

1005
01:07:09.414 --> 01:07:10.075
I agree.

1006
01:07:11.015 --> 01:07:13.595
It's, it really and gives visibility

1007
01:07:13.895 --> 01:07:14.395
to,

1008
01:07:14.934 --> 01:07:15.835
the zapper.

1009
01:07:16.869 --> 01:07:18.730
Gives visibility to the person,

1010
01:07:19.510 --> 01:07:20.490
who got zapped,

1011
01:07:21.349 --> 01:07:24.010
and the content they created that got zapped.

1012
01:07:24.390 --> 01:07:27.690
So all of those three things get surfaced to the top.

1013
01:07:28.390 --> 01:07:33.715
So you can look up those profiles. You can look up at or you can go to the note or article that was zapped.

1014
01:07:34.575 --> 01:07:36.195
So it's a good

1015
01:07:36.575 --> 01:07:38.595
discovery tool in all of those dimensions,

1016
01:07:39.215 --> 01:07:41.555
and it does promote zapping, doesn't it?

1017
01:07:41.935 --> 01:07:42.915
It makes that,

1018
01:07:43.615 --> 01:07:45.235
like, a much more visible.

1019
01:07:45.549 --> 01:07:50.130
And we made sure in our web app that you can link directly to any of these tabs.

1020
01:07:50.510 --> 01:07:52.609
So any of the tabs into the,

1021
01:07:52.990 --> 01:07:53.970
explore section,

1022
01:07:54.430 --> 01:07:55.730
you know, if you go to,

1023
01:07:56.349 --> 01:07:56.849
primal.net/explore

1024
01:07:57.950 --> 01:08:01.474
and then you click on, let's say, top Zaps or Zaps,

1025
01:08:03.375 --> 01:08:07.855
you can share that link, and it will, like, open the appropriate tab when you,

1026
01:08:08.654 --> 01:08:10.275
when when the page loads.

1027
01:08:14.380 --> 01:08:24.800
Okay. And so this I think the Zap features I mean, it and from a discovery point of view, right, like a great article, right, is if it's getting zapped a 100,000 sats, you know, that's $94

1028
01:08:25.180 --> 01:08:28.480
currently. Like, it's probably a pretty good article. Like, you should check it out. Yeah.

1029
01:08:28.915 --> 01:08:30.455
Makes a lot of sense to me.

1030
01:08:30.995 --> 01:08:32.455
What are your thoughts on

1031
01:08:33.155 --> 01:08:34.375
people gaming that?

1032
01:08:35.155 --> 01:08:38.135
Because it will be People go people gonna game that. Game. Yeah.

1033
01:08:39.315 --> 01:08:52.550
This this is this is gonna be game. We will have to kind of fight this fight as we go. Okay. There's gonna be a lot more. Maybe. We'll see. But in the meantime, we're providing high quality signal for people. Got it.

1034
01:08:53.250 --> 01:09:10.440
And we'll see how how it goes from there. Yeah. It's gonna get wild. I'm sure. I mean, like, the low IQ way of handling it, like, the left curve way of handling it is, like, if you see someone that's routinely gaming it, you just blacklist that that end pub. Yeah. That's not an ideal situation.

1035
01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:12.380
No. I mean, you can also,

1036
01:09:13.400 --> 01:09:14.060
kind of,

1037
01:09:14.920 --> 01:09:18.920
game it in a way that you get someone else in trouble maybe or

1038
01:09:19.320 --> 01:09:25.815
we'll see. Like, the thing is with, the receiver receiver the receiver is the one that's sending out the receipt. Right?

1039
01:09:26.135 --> 01:09:34.315
Right. Exactly. So the receiver has to be in on it. So it's Everyone else is trusting the receiver. When when you, like if you open Primal and it says,

1040
01:09:34.935 --> 01:09:35.755
I've received

1041
01:09:36.215 --> 01:09:43.650
a 5,000 SADZ app, you're trusting me that I actually received the 5,000 SADZ app. You're not trusting the sender.

1042
01:09:44.190 --> 01:09:47.570
To be more precise, you're trusting the wallet service,

1043
01:09:48.270 --> 01:09:58.135
that the receiver is using. That because that service is creating the the receipt and publishing it. So And my son is using their own server, but yeah. Which makes

1044
01:09:58.435 --> 01:10:07.094
sense. Exactly. So so then you can get into the reputation of different wallet services, etcetera, etcetera. So, you know Oh, fair enough.

1045
01:10:07.429 --> 01:10:11.590
There are there are ways to deal with this. And we are, kind of

1046
01:10:12.869 --> 01:10:16.489
I think we're still in the fuck around and find out stage of Nasr.

1047
01:10:16.790 --> 01:10:18.330
And the this really,

1048
01:10:18.790 --> 01:10:21.449
kind of applies to everything we covered today.

1049
01:10:22.150 --> 01:10:24.705
You know, like, some of our friends,

1050
01:10:25.245 --> 01:10:25.745
were

1051
01:10:26.125 --> 01:10:31.025
very skeptical about launching the premium tier so early, quote, unquote. Right?

1052
01:10:31.485 --> 01:10:31.885
And,

1053
01:10:33.485 --> 01:10:34.465
I think it

1054
01:10:34.765 --> 01:10:37.425
it's true that the Noster user base is

1055
01:10:37.790 --> 01:10:39.890
so small that, you know, these

1056
01:10:40.190 --> 01:10:44.210
probably won't, like, amount to some significant revenues at this point.

1057
01:10:44.830 --> 01:10:45.730
But we need

1058
01:10:46.030 --> 01:10:47.870
to start we need to start,

1059
01:10:48.270 --> 01:10:48.750
kind of,

1060
01:10:49.470 --> 01:10:50.610
experimenting with,

1061
01:10:51.310 --> 01:10:54.485
business models like this and learning what works

1062
01:10:55.345 --> 01:10:55.845
and,

1063
01:10:56.225 --> 01:11:05.925
kind of growing from there. Right? Like and I actually have a pretty good feeling about it based on how it's going so far. I love that it's all out in the open too. You know? It's just like

1064
01:11:07.490 --> 01:11:14.230
many different people around the world just building out in the open and just seeing what works, seeing what doesn't work, and we iterate over time. We'll figure it out.

1065
01:11:14.850 --> 01:11:20.150
So there's I guess there's one more tab. Right? Was it the media oh, there's 2 more tabs.

1066
01:11:20.610 --> 01:11:23.645
What's the deal with the media tab on So the media tab,

1067
01:11:24.905 --> 01:11:25.965
basically lists,

1068
01:11:26.585 --> 01:11:28.364
it's kind of like a Instagram

1069
01:11:28.905 --> 01:11:29.405
type,

1070
01:11:30.105 --> 01:11:32.284
UI where you would show thumbnails

1071
01:11:32.665 --> 01:11:36.045
of either images or videos that have been posted,

1072
01:11:36.870 --> 01:11:38.010
and we apply

1073
01:11:38.469 --> 01:11:39.370
some sort of,

1074
01:11:40.870 --> 01:11:41.370
logic,

1075
01:11:41.830 --> 01:11:46.010
in terms of, like, content scores, like how popular they are and, like,

1076
01:11:46.469 --> 01:11:53.364
when it comes to other users engaging with it. That's the sort mechanism we use there. I think it's the previous

1077
01:11:54.145 --> 01:12:02.485
either 24 or 48 hours that we take into account there. So it should be fairly fresh when you go there. In fact, if you pull to refresh that,

1078
01:12:03.349 --> 01:12:10.570
screen, you're likely to see new stuff every time. It is not like an endless scroll. Right? It's I'm looking at it right now. It's like

1079
01:12:12.150 --> 01:12:15.770
At some point, it will end. But, yeah, because we do

1080
01:12:16.137 --> 01:12:26.625
we'd, yeah, exactly. So so we don't go back in time infinitely with so it's kind of So this it wasn't be like trending. It's like trending media. Right? Or not? You can think of it that way. Although,

1081
01:12:27.725 --> 01:12:28.545
we don't

1082
01:12:28.860 --> 01:12:33.120
order it by content score like we do, let's say, on the trending feed.

1083
01:12:33.580 --> 01:12:41.745
We it's if you're above a certain kind of content score threshold, I think we order it by time. So new stuff shows up at the top.

1084
01:12:43.265 --> 01:12:48.965
Honestly, it's been a while since I looked at that, so I don't understand. Well, anyway, it's a step in the right direction. I think as

1085
01:12:50.305 --> 01:12:53.605
a, like, as a protocol, like, we need to do a better job

1086
01:12:54.300 --> 01:12:56.000
providing things for the Instagram

1087
01:12:56.300 --> 01:12:59.680
types, right, like the the the media consumer types.

1088
01:13:00.620 --> 01:13:05.920
I mean, Pablo just released his own Instagram specific type of client called Olas,

1089
01:13:07.605 --> 01:13:13.704
But and and we'll get there. We'll get there. But, that's a step in the right direction. And then we have topics. What is topics?

1090
01:13:14.885 --> 01:13:16.744
So topics is simply

1091
01:13:17.125 --> 01:13:18.184
a list of,

1092
01:13:18.804 --> 01:13:19.304
essentially

1093
01:13:19.740 --> 01:13:23.200
hashtags that are being used in a short form notes,

1094
01:13:24.460 --> 01:13:29.840
based on kind of their frequency of use. So you'll see things like noster, bitcoin,

1095
01:13:30.300 --> 01:13:36.635
what's new. Whatever is topical at any given time should bubble up to the top if people are using that hashtag

1096
01:13:37.415 --> 01:13:38.955
a lot. And then you can,

1097
01:13:39.335 --> 01:13:43.435
click on any of those topics, and it will give you search results based on that hashtag.

1098
01:13:44.455 --> 01:13:47.435
So if you've used primal before, primal 1.x,

1099
01:13:48.550 --> 01:13:52.409
that screen was the the entirety of the explore screen Right. Before.

1100
01:13:52.790 --> 01:13:55.050
And it was pretty useless,

1101
01:13:55.750 --> 01:13:56.870
even the way,

1102
01:13:57.270 --> 01:14:05.645
we had implemented the kind of the logic for for those, for for come coming up with the the list of topics there and ordering

1103
01:14:05.945 --> 01:14:07.325
that wasn't that great.

1104
01:14:07.705 --> 01:14:09.325
So we've improved on that,

1105
01:14:10.105 --> 01:14:12.925
and, so it should be more useful now.

1106
01:14:13.545 --> 01:14:17.485
But the entire explore section, of course, is much more versatile.

1107
01:14:19.360 --> 01:14:20.180
Makes sense.

1108
01:14:20.720 --> 01:14:26.420
Yeah. So the whole explore tab is exactly what you would think it is. It's it's meant to aid discovery

1109
01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:29.220
and

1110
01:14:30.240 --> 01:14:31.860
and things you wouldn't see otherwise.

1111
01:14:32.795 --> 01:14:34.175
I see Pseudo Carlos

1112
01:14:35.435 --> 01:14:37.455
with a very teeny zap of 21Sats

1113
01:14:37.835 --> 01:14:51.030
asking why not allow users to choose sorting for media? I assume this is, you know, it's just an iterative process. It's not, I've I'm like, what? Like, do you we could use the same things as, like, with the feed marketplace but with media.

1114
01:14:51.409 --> 01:14:58.070
There's no reason that You can. So, there were there's the advanced search. So you can open the advanced search.

1115
01:14:58.635 --> 01:14:59.295
You can,

1116
01:15:00.074 --> 01:15:01.775
say search images

1117
01:15:02.715 --> 01:15:03.775
or search videos,

1118
01:15:04.315 --> 01:15:06.335
and then you can search your sort order.

1119
01:15:07.275 --> 01:15:08.494
You can set filters

1120
01:15:08.875 --> 01:15:10.735
any way you like in terms of,

1121
01:15:11.195 --> 01:15:13.295
you know, content score or

1122
01:15:14.860 --> 01:15:19.520
number of zaps and so forth. You can have all these settings that you can,

1123
01:15:19.900 --> 01:15:20.960
optionally set

1124
01:15:21.420 --> 01:15:21.920
and

1125
01:15:22.380 --> 01:15:27.525
create the feed that you you want to see. And then you can save that feed. Yeah. Yeah.

1126
01:15:27.925 --> 01:15:28.665
What about,

1127
01:15:30.245 --> 01:15:36.265
so, like, we're we're talking about the feed marketplace stuff. Is Primal at some point in the future gonna allow people to then,

1128
01:15:36.725 --> 01:15:40.824
like, publish a feed? Like, actually allow other people to subscribe to it?

1129
01:15:41.630 --> 01:15:43.969
So currently, the only way to

1130
01:15:44.349 --> 01:15:48.130
to publish a feed into the feed marketplace is to be a developer

1131
01:15:48.989 --> 01:15:54.530
and create a DVM feed. And when you do that and then when you publish the appropriate nostril event,

1132
01:15:55.204 --> 01:15:56.585
your feed will,

1133
01:15:57.445 --> 01:15:59.304
show up in the primal feed marketplace.

1134
01:16:00.324 --> 01:16:10.425
And maybe I'll kind of give a bit more info on that. So we have a back end service that checks these, like, the pings these all of these custom feeds.

1135
01:16:10.849 --> 01:16:17.510
So it took a check for their health. So if a feed doesn't return any results, if it's unavailable

1136
01:16:18.050 --> 01:16:18.550
for,

1137
01:16:19.329 --> 01:16:20.469
a number of hours,

1138
01:16:20.929 --> 01:16:26.845
then we we remove it automatically from the list. So you're not likely as a user to,

1139
01:16:27.785 --> 01:16:31.565
encounter dead feeds there. That kind of it itself heals.

1140
01:16:31.945 --> 01:16:33.225
And then if the,

1141
01:16:33.625 --> 01:16:38.190
if the feed comes back online, we will bring it back up. So just so you know how that works.

1142
01:16:40.190 --> 01:16:40.690
And,

1143
01:16:41.550 --> 01:16:52.690
to answer your question, Matt, it's the logical next step. So currently, you need to be a developer to create a DBM feed. Right. And it shows up there, so it's already a massive step.

1144
01:16:53.175 --> 01:16:53.915
But, really,

1145
01:16:54.775 --> 01:16:56.075
what we should make

1146
01:16:56.455 --> 01:16:59.435
possible and easy to do is to create

1147
01:17:00.135 --> 01:17:05.035
a custom feed by, like, any user and then publish that feed to the feed marketplace.

1148
01:17:06.440 --> 01:17:09.340
I think there's there might be, like,

1149
01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:12.780
some really interesting feeds that they're they're created by users.

1150
01:17:13.400 --> 01:17:17.020
In addition to these kind of algorithmic, kind of search based feeds,

1151
01:17:17.400 --> 01:17:19.100
I think we should also support

1152
01:17:19.755 --> 01:17:23.375
curation based feeds where you as a user

1153
01:17:23.915 --> 01:17:24.415
can,

1154
01:17:25.195 --> 01:17:26.655
provide curation services.

1155
01:17:27.594 --> 01:17:33.455
I think this is going to be massive. And then you, you know, you may have a really good taste in

1156
01:17:34.030 --> 01:17:37.330
science fiction or something like that. Then you create a a feed

1157
01:17:37.949 --> 01:17:39.170
of science fiction,

1158
01:17:40.350 --> 01:17:41.570
long form reads

1159
01:17:42.190 --> 01:17:49.225
that's, like, super high signal. And so you can apply this to any category, you know, cooking or whatever. Right.

1160
01:17:49.605 --> 01:17:51.465
And we'll have users who,

1161
01:17:52.805 --> 01:17:58.825
specialize in certain kind of categories like that and create extremely high quality kind of high signal,

1162
01:17:59.365 --> 01:17:59.865
content,

1163
01:18:00.565 --> 01:18:04.025
which I think eventually they should be able to monetize as well.

1164
01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:09.460
I love that. So that might be a premium feature because it needs to be hosted.

1165
01:18:10.560 --> 01:18:11.940
We'll think this through.

1166
01:18:13.520 --> 01:18:15.620
If if it's possible to do it,

1167
01:18:16.080 --> 01:18:20.915
cost effectively without it being a premium feature, it'd be nice to expose the this capability

1168
01:18:21.295 --> 01:18:21.955
to everyone.

1169
01:18:22.735 --> 01:18:23.235
Awesome.

1170
01:18:24.575 --> 01:18:31.395
Okay. The last piece I have on my nonexistent list is is the wallet. So the so Primal

1171
01:18:32.190 --> 01:18:35.810
is, I think, unique in Nostra that it has an integrated wallet.

1172
01:18:38.590 --> 01:18:39.090
No.

1173
01:18:39.710 --> 01:18:41.810
Sorry to cut you off. There

1174
01:18:42.350 --> 01:18:43.250
there there was

1175
01:18:45.054 --> 01:18:48.275
a product, that launched an integrated wallet,

1176
01:18:48.815 --> 01:18:51.074
prior to us in the name of current

1177
01:18:51.375 --> 01:18:52.275
current app.

1178
01:18:52.974 --> 01:18:57.954
They were the first ones to kind of integrate a wallet. It was also a custodial wallet,

1179
01:18:58.255 --> 01:18:59.715
not in a sort of

1180
01:19:00.370 --> 01:19:03.670
centerpiece type of manner as we did, but they definitely

1181
01:19:03.970 --> 01:19:08.790
were ahead of us there, and they managed to get it through the App Store first.

1182
01:19:09.250 --> 01:19:14.230
So I remember seeing this and saying, oh, this is possible. Let's see how let's see what we can do.

1183
01:19:14.965 --> 01:19:16.425
So other than that,

1184
01:19:16.885 --> 01:19:17.431
I'm trying to figure out

1185
01:19:18.133 --> 01:19:20.985
matter. Well, how do you think about the integrated wallet?

1186
01:19:21.685 --> 01:19:26.505
Because this is, like, one of the big people bring it up all the time, the integrated wallet,

1187
01:19:26.850 --> 01:19:34.630
both on the positive and the negative side. How do you think about it as as the actual founder and CEO and the guy focused on shipping the ship?

1188
01:19:35.489 --> 01:19:38.949
So the integrated wallet is a flagship

1189
01:19:39.489 --> 01:19:40.469
feature of Primal.

1190
01:19:41.655 --> 01:19:42.395
We definitely

1191
01:19:42.855 --> 01:19:45.275
take the built in wallet very seriously

1192
01:19:45.655 --> 01:19:47.355
to the extent that we

1193
01:19:47.735 --> 01:19:49.114
kind of look at the wallet

1194
01:19:49.735 --> 01:19:54.235
and all and the social media clients as kind of equal parts

1195
01:19:54.750 --> 01:19:55.969
being a part of primal.

1196
01:19:56.670 --> 01:19:58.289
They're both full time jobs.

1197
01:19:58.829 --> 01:20:00.769
They're neither is a part time job,

1198
01:20:01.070 --> 01:20:05.170
and we want to make the wallet itself as capable and as,

1199
01:20:05.710 --> 01:20:07.889
kind of easy to use as as we can.

1200
01:20:08.445 --> 01:20:09.405
And so far,

1201
01:20:10.045 --> 01:20:13.344
we are getting a lot of good feedback about the wallet in terms of its usability.

1202
01:20:13.724 --> 01:20:20.945
Many hardcore Bitcoiners actually tell me that they use it as a daily driver because it just works for them. Right. Sort of like a replacement,

1203
01:20:21.724 --> 01:20:23.025
for wallet of Satoshi,

1204
01:20:23.880 --> 01:20:30.679
which, by the way, when we assess the kind of technology landscape and we're trying to pick the right way to,

1205
01:20:31.239 --> 01:20:32.780
implement the built in wallet,

1206
01:20:33.400 --> 01:20:35.260
that market signal that,

1207
01:20:35.800 --> 01:20:41.455
was being sent out there that, you know, the success of wallet of Satoshi was kind of very

1208
01:20:42.235 --> 01:20:45.614
clear in terms of what the majority of the users wanted out there.

1209
01:20:46.235 --> 01:20:48.655
And since we wanted the wallet to be

1210
01:20:49.130 --> 01:20:50.110
very approachable

1211
01:20:50.490 --> 01:20:50.990
by

1212
01:20:51.450 --> 01:20:51.950
nontechnical

1213
01:20:52.410 --> 01:20:57.310
people, we wanted the wallet to to just, you know, work out of the box.

1214
01:20:57.930 --> 01:20:59.710
It was not really possible to,

1215
01:21:00.090 --> 01:21:01.550
build a self custodial

1216
01:21:01.930 --> 01:21:08.554
lightning solution that's that was very easy to use and kind of functional from from the get go.

1217
01:21:09.574 --> 01:21:11.514
So we decided to go with a custodial,

1218
01:21:13.494 --> 01:21:13.994
wallet,

1219
01:21:14.295 --> 01:21:14.795
and,

1220
01:21:15.255 --> 01:21:22.460
we decided to partner with Strike to host the wallet back end so that we are compliant and that we,

1221
01:21:23.320 --> 01:21:24.860
have, like, a, you know,

1222
01:21:25.160 --> 01:21:28.219
a licensed custodian for for these funds.

1223
01:21:28.520 --> 01:21:31.420
We don't just YOLO into custody in people's Bitcoin.

1224
01:21:32.295 --> 01:21:32.795
And,

1225
01:21:33.735 --> 01:21:37.755
the downside of this approach, of course, is that we had to implement,

1226
01:21:38.455 --> 01:21:44.235
KYC Lite to be, be compliant and not have to remove the product off the market,

1227
01:21:44.614 --> 01:21:47.100
you know, maybe a month or 2 after we launch it.

1228
01:21:48.300 --> 01:21:48.800
So

1229
01:21:49.580 --> 01:21:50.720
that was my assessment,

1230
01:21:51.180 --> 01:21:57.600
about the state of the art back, almost 2 years ago, a year and a half ago when we started considering the wallet.

1231
01:21:59.645 --> 01:22:01.665
Things have evolved since then.

1232
01:22:02.045 --> 01:22:04.865
So e cash is now very

1233
01:22:05.245 --> 01:22:06.865
interesting and especially

1234
01:22:07.885 --> 01:22:08.385
Cashew.

1235
01:22:09.485 --> 01:22:10.545
The Cashew protocol

1236
01:22:10.925 --> 01:22:11.425
is,

1237
01:22:12.765 --> 01:22:20.760
really picking up, and there's a lot of this is it's like the whole ecosystem that's, developing around Cashew is quite exciting,

1238
01:22:21.300 --> 01:22:28.520
both in terms of the development of the core protocol and the apps built on top of it and then bins that are getting stood up.

1239
01:22:29.860 --> 01:22:30.360
So

1240
01:22:31.045 --> 01:22:33.065
it would be great. I would love to,

1241
01:22:33.925 --> 01:22:39.945
have the option for primal users to not use the, you know, the

1242
01:22:41.685 --> 01:22:42.185
compliant

1243
01:22:42.725 --> 01:22:43.945
kind of custodial

1244
01:22:44.325 --> 01:22:46.750
solution that we have now with Strike.

1245
01:22:47.130 --> 01:22:52.190
I imagine that still, like, the majority of the users might go that way, but it'd be nice to have the option,

1246
01:22:52.570 --> 01:22:57.870
to maybe somewhere, like, in a, you know, like, behind the developer flag or something like that where

1247
01:22:58.250 --> 01:22:58.750
user

1248
01:22:59.130 --> 01:23:01.955
users can say, no. I I want actually,

1249
01:23:03.215 --> 01:23:04.675
better privacy here,

1250
01:23:05.135 --> 01:23:05.635
and,

1251
01:23:06.014 --> 01:23:07.715
I want to use a Cashew wallet.

1252
01:23:08.895 --> 01:23:10.994
And what the the the call,

1253
01:23:12.175 --> 01:23:16.915
scheme that Pablo came up with for nutsack where you kinda store your,

1254
01:23:17.700 --> 01:23:18.760
Cashew tokens

1255
01:23:19.140 --> 01:23:24.040
on relays in an encrypted matter. I think that's excellent for for this use case.

1256
01:23:24.900 --> 01:23:30.360
So I can see us building something like that in the future when we,

1257
01:23:31.085 --> 01:23:36.864
think we're ready and the and the the sort of Cashew ecosystem kind of grows a little bit more,

1258
01:23:37.885 --> 01:23:38.784
it would be,

1259
01:23:39.645 --> 01:23:42.784
that would be a great addition to Primal, I think.

1260
01:23:43.725 --> 01:23:54.219
Yeah. I love that. Basically, just choose your own mint. You choose a mint on in the back end, then strike is no longer your custodian. Primal is no longer your, like,

1261
01:23:56.040 --> 01:23:57.020
wallet partner.

1262
01:23:58.040 --> 01:24:05.684
And then you can still just as easily zap. Because, I mean, on the positive side, it's the most seamless Zap experience.

1263
01:24:06.224 --> 01:24:07.764
Like, just one click Zap,

1264
01:24:08.224 --> 01:24:10.804
long hold to send a custom amount.

1265
01:24:11.905 --> 01:24:14.324
It's just clean. It works incredibly well,

1266
01:24:15.025 --> 01:24:16.760
because it's integrated. But,

1267
01:24:17.219 --> 01:24:17.719
obviously,

1268
01:24:20.179 --> 01:24:26.920
it's it it it sucks to to take user information and and tie that user information to social activity.

1269
01:24:27.380 --> 01:24:33.765
Yeah. Agreed. We don't love it. And we when it comes to UX too, there's also this whole notion of,

1270
01:24:34.545 --> 01:24:41.844
you know, with with the primal custodial solution, currently, we guarantee that your funds will be, you know we're not gonna argue.

1271
01:24:42.145 --> 01:24:47.650
Stocks are not gonna argue. We guarantee that. We can't make those guarantees with Cashew. Right? Because,

1272
01:24:48.030 --> 01:24:50.370
we're not going to run a Cashew Mint.

1273
01:24:50.670 --> 01:24:55.730
Right. They're gonna use some other custodian. Exactly. The the cool part about Cashew is that it's an interoperable

1274
01:24:56.685 --> 01:25:04.784
protocol where you can choose your own custodian and choose your own front end. Exactly. And have perfect privacy pretty much, on on the protocol. So,

1275
01:25:05.244 --> 01:25:09.344
this is why I kind of consider this to be, like, a power user feature

1276
01:25:09.720 --> 01:25:13.020
where it will be behind some sort of a, yes, I understand.

1277
01:25:13.360 --> 01:25:13.860
I'm

1278
01:25:14.200 --> 01:25:16.300
responsible for choosing my,

1279
01:25:16.760 --> 01:25:17.420
you know,

1280
01:25:18.280 --> 01:25:18.780
mints.

1281
01:25:19.480 --> 01:25:19.980
And,

1282
01:25:20.680 --> 01:25:21.980
I'm not going to

1283
01:25:22.415 --> 01:25:32.275
hold Primal accountable if I get robbed by this other mint. All these types of things that might be super weird to normal users to kind of be subjected to. For power users,

1284
01:25:33.135 --> 01:25:35.475
that who understand what's going on,

1285
01:25:35.790 --> 01:25:41.250
that would be quite welcome. And, honestly, that's the type of product I would like to use,

1286
01:25:41.630 --> 01:25:47.969
so it does make sense to have this capability eventually in Primal. And, I mean, I think it's worth noting that,

1287
01:25:49.545 --> 01:25:52.845
users right now, you don't have to use the Primal Wallet.

1288
01:25:53.545 --> 01:25:58.205
You can just you can use Primal and just completely ignore the integrated while it exists.

1289
01:25:59.385 --> 01:26:01.800
You can set any Lightning address to receive.

1290
01:26:02.360 --> 01:26:07.420
Right? So, like, right now, all these apps we see on screen are are coming to my npub.cashwallet,

1291
01:26:09.000 --> 01:26:10.219
my ecash wallet.

1292
01:26:10.840 --> 01:26:12.380
And and then on Android,

1293
01:26:13.239 --> 01:26:17.420
you actually have Nostra Wallet Connect support. So you can actually send zaps

1294
01:26:17.785 --> 01:26:19.245
in app with a click,

1295
01:26:20.745 --> 01:26:23.405
without using the integrated wallet. Why doesn't

1296
01:26:24.185 --> 01:26:27.725
I know the answer here, but why doesn't Nostra Wallet Connect exist

1297
01:26:28.105 --> 01:26:31.405
for iOS users right now where they could use an external wallet

1298
01:26:31.865 --> 01:26:33.405
easily for sending zaps?

1299
01:26:34.800 --> 01:26:40.180
Yeah. Since the built in custodial wallet, like the the compliant custodial wallet isn't,

1300
01:26:40.720 --> 01:26:41.380
a perfect

1301
01:26:41.760 --> 01:26:49.035
fit for everyone out there, we decided right from the get go to implement the option to connect to an external wallet.

1302
01:26:49.435 --> 01:26:52.415
And we implemented this across the entire primal stack.

1303
01:26:52.795 --> 01:26:55.915
So in Android, you can use Noster Wallet connect to,

1304
01:26:56.555 --> 01:26:57.055
to

1305
01:26:57.435 --> 01:26:58.315
connect to a,

1306
01:26:59.115 --> 01:27:00.735
a wallet that supports that feature.

1307
01:27:01.435 --> 01:27:02.815
That's that's been available

1308
01:27:03.515 --> 01:27:04.415
on Android

1309
01:27:05.000 --> 01:27:09.100
for from day 1. On the web app, you also can use,

1310
01:27:10.200 --> 01:27:17.020
a third party extension that has its own built in wallet, that's not a primal wallet and comes out that way.

1311
01:27:17.320 --> 01:27:20.300
And we also implemented Noster WalletConnect on iOS.

1312
01:27:20.795 --> 01:27:25.855
However, we couldn't get that through App Store review. We I still don't understand why,

1313
01:27:26.235 --> 01:27:27.055
to be honest.

1314
01:27:28.715 --> 01:27:32.015
And Apple is a lot of times just like a black box.

1315
01:27:32.395 --> 01:27:34.175
Yeah. You when they

1316
01:27:35.150 --> 01:27:41.890
reject you, a lot of times you don't exact you you don't understand exactly why I rejected you. And when they accept your

1317
01:27:42.430 --> 01:27:47.090
submission, you don't know why they accepted it sometimes too. You just kinda go with the flow.

1318
01:27:47.470 --> 01:27:49.490
But, yeah, that's the the summary.

1319
01:27:50.215 --> 01:27:52.955
We implemented this across the entire stack.

1320
01:27:53.815 --> 01:27:55.915
We couldn't roll it out on iOS.

1321
01:27:56.855 --> 01:27:58.875
Got it. Yep. That makes sense.

1322
01:28:00.055 --> 01:28:01.275
At the end, I mean,

1323
01:28:03.230 --> 01:28:06.850
building anything in the Apple Vault Garden ecosystem is

1324
01:28:08.670 --> 01:28:10.930
a exhausting frustrating experience.

1325
01:28:11.550 --> 01:28:13.730
I think many developers can relate.

1326
01:28:14.590 --> 01:28:16.450
Okay. So I wanna move to

1327
01:28:17.405 --> 01:28:19.025
high level Nostra thoughts.

1328
01:28:21.245 --> 01:28:27.425
Where do you how how do you think about the current level of Nostra adoption, where we are in Nostra's growth?

1329
01:28:28.765 --> 01:28:31.425
What do you think about going forward from here?

1330
01:28:32.100 --> 01:28:33.080
Where do we stand?

1331
01:28:33.940 --> 01:28:37.400
So you can look at Noster adoption in 2 different ways.

1332
01:28:37.780 --> 01:28:39.480
You can look at it as

1333
01:28:39.780 --> 01:28:43.160
user adoption. How many users we have? How many,

1334
01:28:43.620 --> 01:28:46.040
you know, active users and so forth?

1335
01:28:46.565 --> 01:28:49.864
And you can look at it from the developer adoption

1336
01:28:50.485 --> 01:28:50.985
lens.

1337
01:28:51.925 --> 01:28:55.304
When it comes to developer adoption, we're absolutely crushing it.

1338
01:28:55.844 --> 01:28:57.625
I'm not aware of any,

1339
01:28:58.485 --> 01:29:00.665
competing network that can,

1340
01:29:01.125 --> 01:29:01.560
like,

1341
01:29:02.200 --> 01:29:04.380
be in the same ballpark even as us

1342
01:29:04.760 --> 01:29:05.340
on Nasr.

1343
01:29:05.720 --> 01:29:09.820
There's so many project. There's so much as there's so much being built.

1344
01:29:10.440 --> 01:29:13.420
Applications services are being stood up and so forth.

1345
01:29:14.840 --> 01:29:23.664
So that's extremely bullish because the old adage goes, if you wanna know what future holds, just, look at what all the developers are doing in their spare time.

1346
01:29:24.045 --> 01:29:25.985
And they're all building on their apps.

1347
01:29:27.724 --> 01:29:29.505
When it comes to user adoption,

1348
01:29:30.210 --> 01:29:31.750
it's a bit of a different story.

1349
01:29:32.370 --> 01:29:32.870
We

1350
01:29:33.250 --> 01:29:34.150
don't have,

1351
01:29:35.810 --> 01:29:37.670
big numbers in terms of absolute

1352
01:29:37.970 --> 01:29:39.410
user kind of,

1353
01:29:39.970 --> 01:29:40.470
accounts.

1354
01:29:41.330 --> 01:29:42.950
Probably a couple of 100000

1355
01:29:45.015 --> 01:29:47.995
relatively active humans are are on Noster.

1356
01:29:49.094 --> 01:30:00.130
There is a subset of that group that's, like, extremely active and passionate and so forth, and this is something you want to see at the early stage of any sort of product adoption and especially

1357
01:30:00.430 --> 01:30:01.650
when it comes to a protocol.

1358
01:30:02.350 --> 01:30:03.250
This, like,

1359
01:30:04.830 --> 01:30:06.930
extremely passionate user base.

1360
01:30:07.630 --> 01:30:10.290
The rider dies. The rider dies. They're here, and they're not going anywhere.

1361
01:30:10.985 --> 01:30:13.244
So that's that's excellent to see.

1362
01:30:13.704 --> 01:30:15.324
And then, you know,

1363
01:30:16.184 --> 01:30:17.244
people like to,

1364
01:30:17.545 --> 01:30:21.405
you know we often hear some criticism in comparisons to,

1365
01:30:22.105 --> 01:30:23.405
let's say, Blue Sky.

1366
01:30:23.790 --> 01:30:24.909
Recently, we had,

1367
01:30:25.630 --> 01:30:31.889
like, a lot of people sign up to Blue Sky, and the people are you know, millions of people signing up to Blue Sky in a week

1368
01:30:32.429 --> 01:30:35.409
compared to much, much, much smaller numbers than Oster.

1369
01:30:35.790 --> 01:30:38.369
And people ask why why this is happening.

1370
01:30:38.909 --> 01:30:39.409
And

1371
01:30:39.844 --> 01:30:41.304
this is just such a,

1372
01:30:42.085 --> 01:30:45.145
wrong comparison. It's literally like comparing

1373
01:30:45.525 --> 01:30:46.905
Venmo and Bitcoin.

1374
01:30:47.445 --> 01:30:55.065
Well, one is a company, and the other one is a protocol that's being stood up. And when you look at the types of people and the profile of the users

1375
01:30:55.400 --> 01:30:55.980
of Noster,

1376
01:30:56.520 --> 01:30:58.940
like, the couple 100000 people I mentioned,

1377
01:31:00.360 --> 01:31:02.380
well, we all hold our Noster keys.

1378
01:31:03.720 --> 01:31:05.340
And Noster is the only

1379
01:31:05.960 --> 01:31:08.460
protocol, the only network where this is the case.

1380
01:31:09.275 --> 01:31:13.355
So there's no second best. There's only Noster. If we're looking at,

1381
01:31:14.075 --> 01:31:14.575
bootstrapping,

1382
01:31:16.395 --> 01:31:19.295
brand new self sovereign protocol for the Internet,

1383
01:31:19.595 --> 01:31:20.655
there's only Noster.

1384
01:31:21.840 --> 01:31:23.139
And the trajectory

1385
01:31:23.520 --> 01:31:24.020
is

1386
01:31:24.880 --> 01:31:26.260
to me, it looks exactly

1387
01:31:26.560 --> 01:31:29.699
like the way I would expect it to look at this early stage.

1388
01:31:31.120 --> 01:31:33.015
It's like you said, the rider dies.

1389
01:31:33.575 --> 01:31:37.515
It's the type of people who are not going away and,

1390
01:31:38.535 --> 01:31:41.115
a ton of developers building interesting things.

1391
01:31:41.895 --> 01:31:44.395
So it's up to us developers to

1392
01:31:44.695 --> 01:31:45.195
make

1393
01:31:45.640 --> 01:31:51.420
the UX better, to create the better better tools. You know? We really work around the clock.

1394
01:31:52.520 --> 01:31:54.840
You know, like, we there there's not a lot of,

1395
01:31:55.640 --> 01:32:00.140
time off to the not the developers' stake. We're building as fast as we can.

1396
01:32:00.735 --> 01:32:06.355
And I'm hoping the results are visible there because, like, for people who are taking

1397
01:32:07.055 --> 01:32:09.395
kind of multiple touch points within Noster,

1398
01:32:09.935 --> 01:32:11.795
like, with months in between,

1399
01:32:12.415 --> 01:32:14.469
I'm hoping that it is

1400
01:32:14.770 --> 01:32:17.429
very evident that, like, the the,

1401
01:32:18.610 --> 01:32:21.030
UX and the services around it are getting

1402
01:32:21.570 --> 01:32:25.110
much more sophisticated with every subsequent touch point.

1403
01:32:26.130 --> 01:32:27.510
So we need to do that.

1404
01:32:28.485 --> 01:32:28.985
And,

1405
01:32:29.765 --> 01:32:34.905
I think we already are starting to getting to the point where you no longer need to squint

1406
01:32:35.205 --> 01:32:37.385
to see some of these things, to see

1407
01:32:37.685 --> 01:32:39.864
all of these different content types,

1408
01:32:41.350 --> 01:32:45.770
being stood up on Aster and new breeds of applications that are

1409
01:32:46.070 --> 01:32:46.790
kind of,

1410
01:32:47.190 --> 01:32:48.650
merging and kind of,

1411
01:32:49.590 --> 01:32:51.850
bringing together these different content types

1412
01:32:52.150 --> 01:32:53.610
into new user experiences

1413
01:32:54.465 --> 01:33:01.045
that are starting to be better than the legacy UX that's being offered out there. Like, I like to think that,

1414
01:33:01.505 --> 01:33:02.805
you know, merging,

1415
01:33:04.545 --> 01:33:05.045
microblogging,

1416
01:33:05.585 --> 01:33:11.140
short form feeds with a long form content within the same app the way we've done at Primal,

1417
01:33:11.680 --> 01:33:15.140
and, like, merging a wallet into the whole UX there.

1418
01:33:16.400 --> 01:33:18.820
We're starting to, in some aspects,

1419
01:33:19.775 --> 01:33:21.715
overtake the feature set

1420
01:33:22.015 --> 01:33:28.595
and the UX that's available in legacy platforms. And this is just the beginning. You know? We've been at it for almost

1421
01:33:29.215 --> 01:33:32.435
2 years at Primal. It was started coding in January 23.

1422
01:33:32.815 --> 01:33:34.435
It feels like we've barely begun.

1423
01:33:35.200 --> 01:33:36.020
And we're definitely

1424
01:33:36.560 --> 01:33:36.880
up against,

1425
01:33:38.960 --> 01:33:43.060
companies that have been around for 10 plus years with multibillion dollar budgets.

1426
01:33:43.440 --> 01:33:45.380
But already in some aspects,

1427
01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:48.740
we are we as in Noster applications

1428
01:33:49.605 --> 01:33:55.785
are starting to look better. You know, we have better UX around, like, this kind of textual content. We have better search,

1429
01:33:57.365 --> 01:33:57.865
and,

1430
01:33:58.965 --> 01:34:02.345
there's still more work to do, I think, when it comes to

1431
01:34:03.860 --> 01:34:06.760
improving the UX even more. Like, I'd like to reach,

1432
01:34:07.540 --> 01:34:15.560
Instagram level kind of polish and performance in in Primal Apps. So there's a lot more that we need to do.

1433
01:34:15.995 --> 01:34:18.875
But you can you can help but be bullish about the,

1434
01:34:19.595 --> 01:34:20.095
trajectory.

1435
01:34:20.795 --> 01:34:23.535
So we know the apps and, like, products are

1436
01:34:23.995 --> 01:34:25.215
rapidly getting better.

1437
01:34:25.995 --> 01:34:33.110
We're getting more content creators interested because they see this UX and they like their content to appear there.

1438
01:34:33.490 --> 01:34:37.110
And then they we're getting to the point where they can recommend

1439
01:34:37.490 --> 01:34:41.990
Nostr Apps to their audiences with a straight face. Right? You can

1440
01:34:42.375 --> 01:34:50.394
tell people, okay. Follow me on Primal or find me on Primal, and it's a pretty high chance they'll be able to download the app, get signed up, and get going.

1441
01:34:51.494 --> 01:34:51.994
So

1442
01:34:52.454 --> 01:34:56.074
in summary, I'm bullish about where things are going.

1443
01:34:57.780 --> 01:35:06.900
Very well said. I mean, I think, well, we've made massive progress. It's obvious. And there's still a lot of work to be done. And I tend to agree with you that,

1444
01:35:08.659 --> 01:35:11.239
people most people will not come for censorship

1445
01:35:11.540 --> 01:35:12.040
resistance

1446
01:35:12.395 --> 01:35:13.295
or verifiability

1447
01:35:13.835 --> 01:35:14.735
or permissionlessness

1448
01:35:15.675 --> 01:35:16.574
at its core.

1449
01:35:17.035 --> 01:35:23.455
They will come because the UX is way better and the UX will be way better because of those key foundational elements.

1450
01:35:24.155 --> 01:35:25.614
So they're definitely interconnected.

1451
01:35:25.995 --> 01:35:27.055
There's also something,

1452
01:35:27.550 --> 01:35:32.450
you know, where you kinda have to flip on your head how you kinda measure these things with an open protocol,

1453
01:35:34.350 --> 01:35:36.610
which is, for example, user numbers.

1454
01:35:38.750 --> 01:35:41.650
Nasser is an open transparent network. Anyone can make

1455
01:35:42.485 --> 01:35:46.185
relatively verifiable calculations on what they think user numbers are.

1456
01:35:46.805 --> 01:36:01.400
If you're asking if if you're trying to figure out how many users of Telegram exist or how many users of X exist, you have to just blindly trust Pavel Durov or Elon Musk on how many users they say there are, like there's zero way that you can verify it.

1457
01:36:01.860 --> 01:36:02.760
Or Blue Sky.

1458
01:36:03.220 --> 01:36:06.120
Or Blue Sky. And there's another piece there where,

1459
01:36:08.500 --> 01:36:12.600
these things are walled gardens for the most part. I think Blue Sky you can

1460
01:36:13.535 --> 01:36:14.915
view without an account

1461
01:36:15.375 --> 01:36:16.435
decently well.

1462
01:36:18.255 --> 01:36:25.315
And TikTok, you can too because CCP wants as as many eyeballs as possible. But Instagram, Reddit, Telegram,

1463
01:36:26.430 --> 01:36:30.930
Twitter, x, you like, you can't you can't interact with that content

1464
01:36:31.390 --> 01:36:34.610
unless you have an account. And there's been many studies

1465
01:36:35.070 --> 01:36:40.770
that most people, the way they interact with this stuff is they're lurkers. They they rarely engage and they're just viewing.

1466
01:36:41.565 --> 01:36:44.385
So from that perspective, I like to say that

1467
01:36:45.565 --> 01:36:51.185
in in terms of Nostra users, we have the entire Internet connected population, 5,000,000,000 plus people,

1468
01:36:52.125 --> 01:36:53.425
because they can just click

1469
01:36:53.885 --> 01:37:07.990
a a primal link or an end jump link, and they can just view the content, everyone who replied, everyone who quoted it without ever having an account. Those people will never be measured, period. And then the last piece is daily active users itself is a

1470
01:37:08.475 --> 01:37:16.335
kind of a predatory mind frame to view these things. I mean, it's literally like you're you're measuring addiction. It's a it's an addiction metric.

1471
01:37:17.835 --> 01:37:21.215
It it'd be like it'd be like calling, you know, heroin users,

1472
01:37:21.699 --> 01:37:25.800
daily active users. How many daily active users do we have of this drug or that drug?

1473
01:37:26.260 --> 01:37:34.599
But in big tech, like, it's become the the the normal metric, the normal KPI that people use to measure it. So I would push people back

1474
01:37:35.015 --> 01:37:41.195
to like, we want people ideally and there will be plenty of people addicted to Nostr and Nostr perhaps,

1475
01:37:43.175 --> 01:37:44.875
because, you know, it's

1476
01:37:45.175 --> 01:37:51.420
app developers will try and make things more addictive in a lot of in a lot of situations. But I would push us as

1477
01:37:52.440 --> 01:38:03.740
as a community to strive for experiences that could be healthier for users, that could be very useful for users, where they don't necessarily have to check it every day or scroll for

1478
01:38:04.255 --> 01:38:09.395
9 hours, you know, and 10 hours and try and get those scroll numbers up because

1479
01:38:09.855 --> 01:38:12.355
the incentives can be built in a way where

1480
01:38:12.815 --> 01:38:14.114
where you're not monetizing

1481
01:38:14.735 --> 01:38:16.755
that attention, where you're not monetizing,

1482
01:38:18.210 --> 01:38:20.150
surveillance data. You're not monetizing,

1483
01:38:22.210 --> 01:38:26.470
these different dystopian big tech surveillance, corporate surveillance ad models.

1484
01:38:27.090 --> 01:38:34.855
So as a result, you don't necessarily need users to be addicted in order for everyone to win. So there's a lot of different things at play here.

1485
01:38:35.875 --> 01:38:36.375
And,

1486
01:38:36.995 --> 01:38:40.535
I know people tend to get frustrated when they see, like, the most conservative

1487
01:38:41.635 --> 01:38:51.710
user number metrics, you know, that we see floated around. And I think a lot of times it does a little bit more harm than good. It doesn't matter, I think, in the big scheme of things,

1488
01:38:52.250 --> 01:39:00.590
but it does, like, discover it does discourage people to a degree. And there's different elements here with that make it more challenging as an open protocol

1489
01:39:01.435 --> 01:39:03.295
in terms of that initial push

1490
01:39:03.675 --> 01:39:04.335
of users

1491
01:39:04.715 --> 01:39:09.054
because the community does care so much. And I saw this with Bitcoin growing up.

1492
01:39:10.235 --> 01:39:19.370
You know, for instance, with bit with Bitcoin, it's way easier to onboard someone if you just recommend them a single wallet, right, If you say go use a cold card.

1493
01:39:20.070 --> 01:39:20.570
But

1494
01:39:21.110 --> 01:39:34.735
people feel it's that's an open protocol and you have a lot of choice. So people wanna give you, like, 10 different recommendations, and then they give you 10 different recommendations. And then as a result, the friction and overwhelmness in your head, you don't end up you don't end up, actually using something.

1495
01:39:35.195 --> 01:39:37.935
And I think we'll start to see that with Nostra too,

1496
01:39:38.715 --> 01:39:45.455
as it grows. Like, people will just be like, follow me on Domus, download Domus, or follow me on Primal, download Primal,

1497
01:39:45.994 --> 01:39:47.340
and then the user will

1498
01:39:47.820 --> 01:39:53.199
incidentally get all the knock on benefits. Like, if you have any complaints at the end of the day, like,

1499
01:39:54.060 --> 01:39:55.840
I see some comments in there,

1500
01:39:56.699 --> 01:39:57.199
gaslighting

1501
01:39:57.580 --> 01:40:03.725
us a little bit in the in the live chat. And at the end of the day, the beauty of Nostr and why you can never

1502
01:40:04.185 --> 01:40:05.085
compare it

1503
01:40:05.465 --> 01:40:19.070
to the decisions that are made on closed big tech is that at the end of the day, if you don't like a decision that Primal makes, you can just go use another client. If you don't like a decision that Vidr makes with Amethyst, you can go use another client and you lose nothing. You have the freedom of choice,

1504
01:40:19.610 --> 01:40:21.310
which none of them could ever provide.

1505
01:40:24.250 --> 01:40:26.590
Okay, that was my long rant for the day.

1506
01:40:27.770 --> 01:40:31.710
Millian, it's been an absolute pleasure as always. I don't wanna keep you from

1507
01:40:32.065 --> 01:40:39.204
integrating ZapStream and Primal. I know you're gonna immediately go and integrate live live video streaming directly into the client,

1508
01:40:39.985 --> 01:40:42.465
so we'll have it in 2 weeks. Do you have any,

1509
01:40:43.105 --> 01:40:45.204
do you have any final thoughts before we wrap?

1510
01:40:46.280 --> 01:40:50.300
Sure. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Who needs sleep? Let's go and get more

1511
01:40:51.560 --> 01:40:54.060
stuff. Yeah. The final thoughts, I'll just, like,

1512
01:40:54.360 --> 01:40:58.460
riff off of what you just mentioned here. Like, the daily active user,

1513
01:40:59.080 --> 01:41:00.300
metric is

1514
01:41:01.165 --> 01:41:06.785
really not that relevant, let's say, for for a company like Primal anymore because we,

1515
01:41:07.245 --> 01:41:10.145
our goal is not to create engagement. We we

1516
01:41:11.485 --> 01:41:19.150
we don't care if you spend 5 minutes or 5 hours on Primal. It doesn't, what what we care about is

1517
01:41:19.530 --> 01:41:20.670
how many users

1518
01:41:21.530 --> 01:41:23.150
found Primal useful

1519
01:41:23.450 --> 01:41:23.950
enough

1520
01:41:24.570 --> 01:41:25.070
to,

1521
01:41:25.530 --> 01:41:27.630
pay for the, premium subscription.

1522
01:41:28.445 --> 01:41:30.864
That's really like, when you look at our incentives,

1523
01:41:31.405 --> 01:41:33.664
it's about making the product useful

1524
01:41:34.445 --> 01:41:34.945
and

1525
01:41:35.324 --> 01:41:35.824
providing

1526
01:41:36.284 --> 01:41:37.664
high quality signal

1527
01:41:38.125 --> 01:41:48.920
to to and great tools to our users. If we do a good job, we get paid. It's irrelevant whether we make somebody doom scroll for 5 hours,

1528
01:41:49.940 --> 01:41:54.120
if we are not able to do those things. So aligning these incentives

1529
01:41:54.500 --> 01:41:58.465
is, I think, one of the keys here. I'm super excited that we

1530
01:41:58.844 --> 01:42:00.065
are taking this path.

1531
01:42:01.244 --> 01:42:01.985
Love it.

1532
01:42:03.005 --> 01:42:13.950
Million, thank you again for joining us. I appreciate you. Keep keep crushing it. And huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show, whether that's through podcasting 2.0 apps or a ride or die in the live chat.

1533
01:42:15.930 --> 01:42:19.550
Dispatch has no sponsors or ads, so you guys are

1534
01:42:21.130 --> 01:42:29.855
what keeps the show going. So thank you for joining me. Thank you for joining, mill million million. Keep crushing it, and hopefully, I'll have you on soon again.

1535
01:42:30.955 --> 01:42:31.455
Cheers.

1536
01:42:32.315 --> 01:42:33.535
Same old high fats.

1537
01:42:33.915 --> 01:42:35.215
Thank you. Always.

1538
01:42:44.290 --> 01:42:46.070
Our world is chaotic,

1539
01:42:46.530 --> 01:42:50.870
but life found its way by channeling energy to bring order to chaos.

1540
01:42:51.250 --> 01:43:01.465
It is in our nature to fix signals amongst noise because it is through communication and exchange that we evolve beyond the darkness of chaos until the dawn of civilization.

1541
01:43:02.885 --> 01:43:14.870
Our evolution thrives in exchange of all the info we try to convey. They flow through to the marketplace and form the signals to regulate how we coordinate where things need to be. Price speaks, so we learn to compete.

1542
01:43:15.250 --> 01:43:16.710
This drives us to efficiently

1543
01:43:17.010 --> 01:43:33.885
shape the world with our voice. Now let the market speak. So we build, we sow, we trade, we grow to meet our wants and needs. We specialize, drive from the mind, our creations, into reality. We make progress in our process to get more for less, advancing society. We brought forth dawn of the age of technology

1544
01:43:34.265 --> 01:43:36.365
that harnessed the energy to reach prosperity.

1545
01:43:36.905 --> 01:43:47.510
Our money embodies the power to reap what we sow, so the market becomes a channel for our collective energy to flow. When value is traded for value, we are aligned and so we evolve.

1546
01:43:47.810 --> 01:43:49.429
This is how amidst uncertainty,

1547
01:43:50.130 --> 01:43:51.585
life continues to grow.

1548
01:43:52.145 --> 01:43:59.844
But the dawn of tech gave rise to light speed information exchange. So to transact fast, we further abstract money from energy constraints

1549
01:44:00.145 --> 01:44:13.469
and became more aligned on a few large entities to coordinate trade, concentrating the power, resources, and authority to create more and more of our money, distorting its signals, eroding its worth, and throwing us back into

1550
01:44:13.770 --> 01:44:15.550
the darkness of chaos.

1551
01:44:30.725 --> 01:44:31.705
When we destroy

1552
01:44:32.085 --> 01:44:32.745
the mechanism

1553
01:44:33.045 --> 01:44:36.185
of money, we destroy our ability to navigate

1554
01:44:36.540 --> 01:44:37.280
through uncertainty.

1555
01:44:38.059 --> 01:44:48.559
And when we can't trade value freely and directly, we must trust the few to govern the many. What happens when all our means center around an authority? Complexity

1556
01:44:48.860 --> 01:44:49.920
builds now coordination.

1557
01:44:50.495 --> 01:44:56.835
Relies on conformity. Observe our thoughts, the sense of dissent and coerce our actions. Can there be true innovation

1558
01:44:57.135 --> 01:45:04.350
when there's no freedom of expression? What happens to our voice? The ones that shape social discourse now whose ideas get created

1559
01:45:04.830 --> 01:45:20.804
and which problems get solved. If our progress depends on hearing many sides to resolve, then why would we suppress the voice that shapes how humanity evolves? When we cut off the perspectives that make up society, we lose sight of the truth that forms our entire reality.

1560
01:45:21.264 --> 01:45:28.005
Each person's contribution builds up our resiliency. Did we forget these differences are what strengthens humanity?

1561
01:45:29.264 --> 01:45:43.190
When communication breaks our words tend to silence, our acts become violent, and the world is divided, and its darkest truth is twisted by our pain and our bias, eroding the common ground, making us more and more fragile.

1562
01:45:44.449 --> 01:45:58.364
To navigate uncertainty, we must solve for robustness, so everything gets tried and tested by various efforts until we discover the system that best coordinates us. Mirrors life's process of channeling energy to create signal from chaos.

1563
01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:00.460
In the era of technology,

1564
01:46:00.840 --> 01:46:13.580
we transform energy into computational power to process the noise of free markets into structured order. And just by looking at numbers, we can derive how much power is required to reduce chaos and inscribe a flow of value for order verify, that our transactions happened in line with shared rules. We don't need to seek trust.

1565
01:46:14.245 --> 01:46:40.929
Transactions happened in line with shared rules. We don't need to seek trust when we can see proof. It is real time consensus that our lines is to evolve. This is how, amidst uncertainty, our lives continue to grow when we uphold our own rules. We preserve our own work and defend our own voice, which lets the true market emerge. The strength of the design lies in each of our participation since we are the nodes that channel our energy end to end. As we claim responsibility

1566
01:46:41.310 --> 01:46:45.725
to uphold our own rights, we radiate the power that brings our truth

1567
01:46:46.105 --> 01:46:47.005
into light.

1568
01:46:50.825 --> 01:47:09.139
And when that dawn of light touches all parts of the glow and it ripples throughout society and it returns us the hope that that becomes the power that sparks humanity to thrive, that same power that fuels the creation of the mind. And when our mind and our money are truly set free and they transcend the limits

1569
01:47:09.520 --> 01:47:10.820
of past boundaries,

1570
01:47:11.280 --> 01:47:43.475
now knowing becomes owning and ideas become wealth. What happens now? We can all push to expand the edges of our existence and assume evolution when things are the hardest. As we head for the light, we have to push through the darkness that is in these moments. We do what we do first. We take the chaos in the darkness and use our power to create. It is in these moments when we're all in alignment and our freedom of difference ascends us to our highest limits and depth of it all. Though that hope is not gone. It is always the darkest before dawn.