CD146: ZAP STORE WITH FRAN

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Created: 12/18/2024 00:54:23
Duration: 7314.667
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Bitcoin hitting an all time high on continued enthusiasm over the new administration,

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policies.

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Here's what president-elect Trump told our Jim Cramer during his visit right here to the New York Stock Exchange just last week about crypto.

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Your embrace in crypto, very different from the previous administration. Strategic Petroleum Reserve like for crypto? Yeah. I think so. I we're gonna do something great with crypto because we don't want China or anybody else, not just China, but others are embracing it, and we wanna be the head.

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One big beneficiary of the Bitcoin rally has been MicroStrategy,

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the stock up more than 500%

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just this year. MicroStrategy will now be added to the Nasdaq 100 on December 23rd

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in its annual rebalancing. The company currently holds 439

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1,000 Bitcoin after announcing another purchase just this morning. Joining us is MicroStrategy cofounder and executive chairman, Michael Saylor.

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Well, you're you're the guest of the moment. So is there a limit to how much Bitcoin you are going to acquire?

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No. I I've said we'll just keep buying the top forever.

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Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin.

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We look at it as cyber Manhattan.

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I would have bought Manhattan a 100 years ago, 200 years ago, every year for the past 300 years.

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You pay a little bit more than the person that bought Manhattan before you, but it's always a good investment to invest in the economic capital of the free world.

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Do you think that Trump is serious about creating this Bitcoin reserve, and how how would that work?

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I think he is.

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And, you know, if you think about the Louisiana Purchase,

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California, and Alaska, we paid $40,000,000

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to buy 75%

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of the United States. Nobody remembers the $40,000,000.

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But if you know where the money is going, you should buy the property by the future. And in this case, the Lummis plan calls for a 1,000,000,000 Bitcoin acquisition.

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That's worth $16,000,000,000,000

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to the country.

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RFK

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proposed 4,000,000,000 Bitcoin that would be worth about $56,000,000,000,000.

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There's room for Trump to go beyond that,

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even $81,000,000,000,000

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in gains.

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And that's against 36,000,000,000,000

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in in the US national debt.

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So all the capital outside the US and all of the antiquated 20th century capital is gonna flow

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into digital assets. It's gonna flow into the Bitcoin network. And the logical thing is for the US to buy it now and own the future.

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And just chase it up at any price?

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I don't I think, just a progressive

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acquisition of it makes sense.

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Keep in mind, if you bought Manhattan from 16 50 to 1700

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a little bit every single year, it would have been a good acquisition.

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Right now, we can buy, the United States could literally buy 20, 25% of the Bitcoin network

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either by trading out its existing gold stores

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or just by just by borrowing a small trace amount of money. And so the Bitcoin network, it could go up by a factor of a 100. You might as well buy it before it hundred x's.

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Your your Manhattan analog is really interesting, Michael, because the reason it may would have made sense to buy Manhattan

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is because they agreed it's gonna be on a grid going north. And I wonder if you see similar,

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policy analogs right now in crypto.

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Are we that organized?

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You know, the world wants a digital assets framework, and the United States has a great opportunity to define a digital assets framework.

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We need to define the definitions of a digital commodity, a currency, a security, a token, an NFT, and an asset backed token,

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and we need the rights and responsibilities

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of issuers and the exchanges and the owners.

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But if that takes consensus from the executive branch, the house, the senate, and the industry, and we didn't have that for the past 4 years.

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The opportunity for the US, it's it's to issue $10,000,000,000,000

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of digital currency and back to dollar.

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It's to capture $50,000,000,000,000

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of capital gain on the digital capital network.

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And, I do believe with the digital assets framework that this administration could put forward, there's no reason why we won't see $500,000,000,000,000

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of assets tokenized over the next 21 years and 280,000,000,000,000

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in capital flow into the digital capital network that is Bitcoin. And where does that leave Bitcoin's eventual price?

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My 21 year forecast is for Bitcoin,

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to appreciate about 29%

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a year, ARR,

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to $13,000,000

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a coin by the year 2045.

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I mean, your strategy is really interesting because you're really the first company to adopt Bitcoin as your primary's treasury reserve

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asset. Isn't that risky? Where does the risk lie besides just in the price falling?

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Well, 4 years ago, the accounting was toxic. It was indefinite and tangible, and it was unclear whether the SEC would embrace Bitcoin as a digital commodity.

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And it was unclear what the regulatory regime would be. That has that has been substantially

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derisked in the year 2024.

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And so now

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you really have companies on the Bitcoin standard where they use a digital commodity like Bitcoin, which is 60 ARR, 60 vol, or companies on the US dollar standard, which is 0 vol, 0 ARR.

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MicroStrategy

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is the largest hole, the largest holder of digital assets in the world. Now we've got $46,000,000,000

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worth of Bitcoin, and and we're leveraging that.

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So what do you say to people who say, well, it's just a it's a Ponzi scheme. Because every time Bitcoin goes up, you issue more equity and debt to buy more Bitcoin. It just keeps going and going and going.

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Yeah. Just like, developers in Manhattan, every time Manhattan real estate goes up in value, they issue more debt to develop more real estate. That's why your buildings are so tall in New York City. It's been going on for 350 years. I would call it an economy.

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Fair. The other you know, it's not the only innovation going on right now, Michael. This announcement out of Alphabet last week regarding quantum computing

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kinda refreshed into that debate about whether Bitcoin or crypto encryption

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can survive

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long term advances in quantum.

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How can it?

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There's nobody more sophisticated with regard to encryption than the Bitcoin community.

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Satoshi was writing about this

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15 years

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ago.

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The quantum benchmark that Google ran has no practical use in the real world right now. It's an impressive benchmark. But in fact, if anybody ever develops a super powerful computer that can crack encryption,

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it's gonna be a challenge for Microsoft, Google, the US government,

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every company on earth. And of course, the entire technology community is is gonna be focused on that. When that happens, we'll all just upgrade our software with quantum resistant algorithms.

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Right now, the consensus in the community is is we're nowhere close to that being a threat.

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What sort of other policies are you hoping to get from a Trump administration that is definitely more crypto and has put in place people that are friendlier?

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You know, the great opportunity in the United States is to is to issue the world's reserve digital currency. There's about a $150,000,000,000

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of stable coin currency, and Tether is the leader. But they can't locate in the United States because we don't have a sufficiently

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clear regulatory

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framework for issuing digital currencies.

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If the US normalizes that, there's no reason why US banks and US companies can't issue $10,000,000,000,000

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of digital currency

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backed by US dollar currency equivalence

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sitting in US banks. That would be tremendously good for the United States.

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But they don't wanna compete with the US dollar. I mean, Trump has made it he campaigned on it and has followed through with tariff threats that they want to keep the US dollar as the global reserve currency. So

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they don't wanna threaten that with Bitcoin.

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No. I'm not talking about Bitcoin. I'm saying that the US should allow US banks and US corporations to issue a token backed by the US dollar that would be backed by 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars of US Like a stable coin.

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Yeah. A stable coin. Tether, Circle, they're stable coins. But isn't that a big threat to the monetary system, the Fed?

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Well, if we if we actually normalize that, then there's gonna be $10,000,000,000,000 of demand for US treasuries. It's the best thing you could do for the dollar. What it means is that all 8,000,000,000 people on the planet will be using the US dollar on their Android phones and their iPhones in order to, in order to trade with each other. That would be great for American values and the American currency.

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Well, we kinda we already we have that with the US dollar. I do I do wonder

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I mean, people have brought up before if you so pro Bitcoin and crypto and even stable coin, if that ultimately does represent a threat to the US dollar as the world has its currency. Sarah, the point is people in Russia and China and Africa and South America can't trade with the US dollar directly because they don't have US dollar bank accounts. They're using Tether, and they're using Tether because they desperately want access to the dollar on their mobile phone. And right now, the US doesn't have regulatory clarity that allows a US corporation

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to issue a US dollar backed stable coin that works for the Chinese, the Russians, the Africans, the Europeans. And so if the US wants to be the world reserve digital currency,

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you don't want a $150,000,000,000

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issued by an offshore entity. What you want is $10,000,000,000,000

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of US dollar stable coin issued by US regulated banks and US regulated companies with the with the money onshore in the United States backed by US treasuries.

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The demand is there. We just need, a digital assets framework in order for that entire industry to come to life.

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Finally, Michael, we've been, mentioning your addition to the Nasdaq 100. I wonder what you think that says about the moment we're in.

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Well, it's an enormously legitimizing

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for Bitcoin as the asset class for the entire crypto industry and, of course, for MicroStrategy

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since we're the largest holder of digital assets in the world right now. A 100 is a magic number. We've now got more than a $100,000,000,000

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of open interest in our options market. We've got more than a $100,000,000,000

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market cap.

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We've got more than a 100% volatility.

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We've been running a 100% ARR for the past 4 years,

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and we're holding $46,000,000,000

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worth of Bitcoin right now that's up a 150%

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year to date.

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So I just think it's a it's a tremendous milestone for us.

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Why should someone buy MicroStrategy, the stock, instead of Bitcoin, the asset, to gain exposure?

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MicroStrategy

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is an operating company. And because we have that 46

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$1,000,000,000 treasury,

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we can securitize

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Bitcoin using our treasury as collateral. So the bond market wants us to strip the volatility and the performance and the uncertainty off the asset and give them a lower

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yielding,

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more,

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more, predictable instrument. And so we're the leader in that market.

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And when we do that, we create high volatility, high performance equity, and the equity in the options market wants that.

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So let me give you a little number here. Year to date, we have issued securities

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both convertible bonds and equities at a premium to our underlying assets that created a 72.4%

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BTC yield.

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That translates to a gain of a 136,965

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Bitcoin without dilution or cost.

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At a 105,000 of Bitcoin,

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that's creating $14,380,000,000

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in shareholder value.

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So how would you value a company that generated 14,400,000,000

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in earnings a year growing a 100%

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year over year?

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And that that's what the MicroStrategy

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Treasury operation is doing,

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If you're a Bitcoiner, you would love that.

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Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to tie it to their to earnings per share there, not just a leverage levered bet on Bitcoin itself. Michael, thank you for joining us. Big day for you as it has been nearly every day, this year. We appreciate the time.

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Thanks for having me, Sarah. Michael Sailor.

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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You just listened to, I think, the single longest

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intro clip

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in dispatch history.

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I don't know. I tried to clip it and make it shorter, but,

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Michael seemed to hit on a lot of notable things.

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And I felt like it would age in an interesting way over the next few years, so I wanted to

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cement it in its place in in dispatch history. So

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that's why that intro clip was there.

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Obviously, that was Michael Saylor of MicroStrategy

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on CNBC.

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We will not be talking about anything that went on in that intro clip

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in classic dispatch fashion. I have,

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Fran here who is the lead dev and creator of Zapstore, which I personally think

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is one of the most underrated,

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interesting Nostra projects in the ecosystem. How's it going, Fran?

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It's going great. Thanks, Matt, for having me. Did I lose you in that long intro clip? Did I I'm sorry I I forced you to listen to 12 minutes of sailor.

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It's sailor saying sailor things, so

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I kinda tune out a bit, but

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interesting for the time stamp.

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Yeah. I mean, that's the whole reason the intro clips exist is because I think it's like an interesting time capsule. Like, there are people there are new Bitcoiners that are coming in now

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that are listening to all the old dispatches,

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so the thesis is working. You know? Like, they're going back and they're listening to clips from CNBC from, like, 3 years ago

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when they didn't really understand Bitcoin. And now

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it's basically just a forever Bitcoin podcast, largest Bitcoin podcast in the world.

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That inter clip was actually so long that we had ride or die freak Brian

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come into our ZapStream live chat, zap a 100,000

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sats,

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and then leave before the clip ended and said he'll listen later on 2 x speed.

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So

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that that's a new one. That would that's a new one. Thank you, Brian, for, supporting the show. If you're listening on YouTube or Twitch,

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the chat that's shown on screen is a Noster enabled live chat, which you can get to at sildispatch.com

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or by going to zap.stream/hotel.

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So, Fran,

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Zapstore, what is Zapstore?

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When I started calling it a permissionless

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app store,

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because

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well, it's built on Nasr and basically every or pretty much every tech

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built on Nasr,

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kind of built on the foundation of

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being open and permissionless.

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Of course, we will see projects that are not bad, but, you know,

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in general, like, now in these stages, I think, you know, for the most part.

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So the idea is that

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you can you know, we we all, I think, been kind of frustrated

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with app stores. The typical experience when you think about app store, you probably, you know, think of the Google Play Store

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or the Apple App Store. And

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for a lot of people, it's just, you know, another app.

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But,

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many others, especially developers, have had

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problems that I think are have a bad impression of these

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of these tools.

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They do

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have an important role,

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I believe.

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And, well,

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I could I could talk about it later more in detail, but,

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I would say

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that

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I have, like, I have my frustration around

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installing apps or in discovering apps,

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for a long time both as

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a developer and as a user.

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And

214
00:17:06.450 --> 00:17:07.750
in a way, it's like

215
00:17:08.695 --> 00:17:09.835
I wanted to see

216
00:17:10.455 --> 00:17:13.115
a solution in the world, and that's why, you know,

217
00:17:15.255 --> 00:17:16.475
everything came together

218
00:17:16.935 --> 00:17:22.475
along with Master, and that's how SaaS work was born. But, essentially, it's a way to

219
00:17:23.820 --> 00:17:24.799
to find apps

220
00:17:26.860 --> 00:17:27.760
without having,

221
00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:28.640
one

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00:17:29.900 --> 00:17:31.039
only one centralized,

223
00:17:31.659 --> 00:17:32.159
curator.

224
00:17:34.940 --> 00:17:35.260
So,

225
00:17:36.245 --> 00:17:42.425
I guess, let's pull it back for a second. Were you were you a Bitcoiner first before you found Noster, before you started working on Noster?

226
00:17:42.965 --> 00:17:43.465
Yeah.

227
00:17:44.485 --> 00:17:46.585
So why Noster? Why were you

228
00:17:47.045 --> 00:17:48.025
drawn to Noster?

229
00:17:49.910 --> 00:17:52.330
So this is interesting because I was,

230
00:17:53.750 --> 00:17:54.550
the corner for

231
00:17:56.310 --> 00:17:58.890
well, you know, full stories are a bit complicated, but,

232
00:17:59.350 --> 00:18:00.230
on and off,

233
00:18:00.550 --> 00:18:01.050
I

234
00:18:01.684 --> 00:18:04.265
got deep into the rabbit hole, in 2020,

235
00:18:05.125 --> 00:18:08.345
but my first use of Bitcoin was around

236
00:18:08.645 --> 00:18:09.145
2012,

237
00:18:10.005 --> 00:18:10.665
I believe.

238
00:18:11.285 --> 00:18:11.785
And,

239
00:18:12.725 --> 00:18:13.785
and at some point

240
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:16.500
around, what, 2021,

241
00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:18.500
I think,

242
00:18:19.360 --> 00:18:19.940
I was

243
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.860
so deep into the rabbit hole. I wanted to

244
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.940
stop working on my client work and start doing something with Bitcoin,

245
00:18:30.095 --> 00:18:35.075
but I didn't know exactly how to go about it, what to do. So I started looking into lightning,

246
00:18:35.695 --> 00:18:38.195
but the possibilities of building stuff on lightning

247
00:18:38.575 --> 00:18:39.075
are

248
00:18:40.175 --> 00:18:42.515
quite restricted or I'm not creative enough.

249
00:18:43.295 --> 00:18:44.115
So I

250
00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:52.020
I had a few ideas, but they were not great. So I spent actually, you know, actively looking for,

251
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.300
what, for about almost 2 years.

252
00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:57.300
Like, what can I do?

253
00:18:57.875 --> 00:19:01.015
What can I do for Freedom Tech? Right? I I I really

254
00:19:01.315 --> 00:19:03.015
wish I could participate more,

255
00:19:03.795 --> 00:19:05.095
because I am a builder,

256
00:19:05.955 --> 00:19:08.295
and all I'm doing is listening to podcasts.

257
00:19:09.555 --> 00:19:10.055
So,

258
00:19:13.690 --> 00:19:14.430
at some

259
00:19:14.810 --> 00:19:15.550
point, just appear

260
00:19:16.170 --> 00:19:17.550
out of nowhere,

261
00:19:18.330 --> 00:19:25.630
and it felt like the perfect substrate to, you know, to build stuff with. So that's why I think today we see a lot of devs that are really excited,

262
00:19:26.795 --> 00:19:28.975
about Master because it just gives

263
00:19:29.355 --> 00:19:31.775
so many possibilities to build cool stuff.

264
00:19:33.835 --> 00:19:38.975
It's, yeah, it's just a perfect substitute for all these things that we are actually building right now.

265
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.820
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, I I mean, I that's why I was drawn to it as well. I mean, I think,

266
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.900
there's only 2 projects in my lifetime that I've witnessed such organic

267
00:19:51.760 --> 00:19:52.900
developer interest,

268
00:19:54.135 --> 00:19:55.915
and that's Bitcoin and Noster.

269
00:19:57.575 --> 00:20:02.475
And and just the the fact that you can build stuff so just without permission

270
00:20:03.095 --> 00:20:05.115
on on on in on both protocols,

271
00:20:05.980 --> 00:20:08.880
I think is incredibly empowering to to

272
00:20:09.260 --> 00:20:13.679
developers around the world that they don't they don't have to ask anybody's permission. They can just start shipping code.

273
00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:14.960
And with,

274
00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:16.880
you have a little bit more,

275
00:20:18.565 --> 00:20:21.145
almost you have a little bit more freedom just because

276
00:20:21.925 --> 00:20:26.425
if you ship in production and something breaks, like, people's money isn't on the line.

277
00:20:27.125 --> 00:20:29.065
So I think a lot of developers

278
00:20:29.685 --> 00:20:30.665
find that

279
00:20:31.205 --> 00:20:32.905
slightly less pressure environment

280
00:20:34.350 --> 00:20:35.730
better suited for them.

281
00:20:36.110 --> 00:20:39.170
But so the reason I bring this up is because in Bitcoin land,

282
00:20:39.870 --> 00:20:41.570
this is a problem that

283
00:20:42.190 --> 00:20:47.715
many of us have been trying to figure out an elegant solution for for a while, which is

284
00:20:49.235 --> 00:20:50.534
a developer ships

285
00:20:50.914 --> 00:20:51.975
a Bitcoin wallet,

286
00:20:52.914 --> 00:20:55.414
and you wanna make sure that that Bitcoin wallet

287
00:20:56.914 --> 00:21:01.015
is is not compromised when you actually use it to store your money.

288
00:21:02.100 --> 00:21:06.840
And so the way that modern society handles that problem,

289
00:21:08.020 --> 00:21:12.920
is the developer goes through a developer approval process with Apple or Google.

290
00:21:13.460 --> 00:21:14.200
And then

291
00:21:14.545 --> 00:21:17.845
when they ship a new binary, when they ship a new app release,

292
00:21:19.185 --> 00:21:20.245
Apple and Google

293
00:21:20.625 --> 00:21:21.365
make sure

294
00:21:21.905 --> 00:21:29.525
that it isn't changed from the time they ship it to when you download it, that someone doesn't sit in the middle and swap it out with the malicious version.

295
00:21:29.910 --> 00:21:34.010
Now that obviously has a problem if if your goal is FreedomTech. Because

296
00:21:34.630 --> 00:21:35.930
if your goal is FreedomTech,

297
00:21:36.550 --> 00:21:42.650
you don't wanna have to trust Apple and Google in that process, and that trust is twofold. Right? The user's trusting

298
00:21:43.270 --> 00:21:45.130
Apple and Google not to actually

299
00:21:45.985 --> 00:21:47.765
maliciously swap it out themselves,

300
00:21:48.705 --> 00:21:51.765
but also the developers trusting them not to get

301
00:21:52.544 --> 00:21:56.485
canceled or removed from the platform. Right? We've seen, I think,

302
00:21:57.745 --> 00:22:04.860
like, almost within a few weeks of Domus being released, it got removed from the App Store, the the Apple App Store

303
00:22:05.320 --> 00:22:08.059
in China. And then later on when he added Zaps,

304
00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:13.659
Apple also removed it from the App Store and said you can't have Zaps in there unless we have

305
00:22:13.985 --> 00:22:16.085
our cut of the pie. This is in app purchases.

306
00:22:16.865 --> 00:22:20.485
So just Domus alone has had 2 different instances

307
00:22:20.865 --> 00:22:24.005
where this Apple App Store monopoly gatekeeper

308
00:22:24.785 --> 00:22:27.845
has has stopped the release of that software and has dictated where that

309
00:22:31.090 --> 00:22:31.910
So Zapstore

310
00:22:32.210 --> 00:22:35.190
aims to go a different direction here. And

311
00:22:35.570 --> 00:22:41.910
I would also it behooves me to there's also a way you can do this without app stores, which is something called PGP verification,

312
00:22:43.265 --> 00:22:45.284
and GPG, which is the

313
00:22:45.745 --> 00:22:55.524
the open version of PGP and they're cross compatible. And this idea is that the developer is signing all the releases manually, and then the user is manually verifying

314
00:22:56.304 --> 00:22:56.804
that

315
00:22:57.760 --> 00:23:09.220
the signatures match up and the hash matches up and that the software hasn't been changed. But the problem there is it doesn't matter how much education you provide, most people will not do that. And that's why app stores reign supreme.

316
00:23:10.825 --> 00:23:16.445
So, anyway, this is I I guess I'm selling your project for you, but this is why I'm really excited about Zapstore because

317
00:23:16.825 --> 00:23:20.044
your your concept is basically let's do an open permissionless

318
00:23:20.985 --> 00:23:21.725
app store

319
00:23:22.505 --> 00:23:23.005
where

320
00:23:24.590 --> 00:23:31.730
the nostril keys are the signatures so that you don't have to deal with PGP. You don't have to deal with any of of the signature schemes. You just

321
00:23:32.670 --> 00:23:36.370
simply press download, and it's a similar experience to the app store.

322
00:23:37.345 --> 00:23:40.085
I don't really have a question. I did was that a good explanation?

323
00:23:41.185 --> 00:23:42.165
Definitely. Definitely.

324
00:23:42.625 --> 00:23:46.645
Just let me backtrack a little bit because you mentioned Bitcoin Nostra as permissionless

325
00:23:47.105 --> 00:23:47.605
tech.

326
00:23:47.985 --> 00:23:49.445
Right. I would say that,

327
00:23:50.065 --> 00:23:50.725
you know,

328
00:23:51.250 --> 00:23:53.590
you could build stuff without permission.

329
00:23:54.690 --> 00:23:56.470
At least for me, open source

330
00:23:57.010 --> 00:23:57.510
was,

331
00:23:58.130 --> 00:24:00.390
was that for a very long time.

332
00:24:00.770 --> 00:24:02.150
Maybe it was just coincidence,

333
00:24:03.090 --> 00:24:06.870
on when I, you know, was growing up and I had access to computers

334
00:24:09.144 --> 00:24:13.085
and open source, I believe, was getting more traction, so I was getting something

335
00:24:13.544 --> 00:24:14.044
bigger.

336
00:24:15.065 --> 00:24:16.365
And I think that

337
00:24:17.065 --> 00:24:18.205
itself enabled

338
00:24:18.985 --> 00:24:22.445
me and a lot of other people to build stuff with no permission.

339
00:24:23.090 --> 00:24:25.350
Right. I don't know how it worked before,

340
00:24:25.890 --> 00:24:28.950
but, you know, for a lot of software, maybe you needed to,

341
00:24:30.690 --> 00:24:34.230
purchase licenses or or ask for some kind of permission.

342
00:24:35.825 --> 00:24:36.885
The fact that,

343
00:24:37.745 --> 00:24:39.605
you know, the say early 2000

344
00:24:40.305 --> 00:24:42.725
where, you know, Linux was getting much more popular

345
00:24:43.585 --> 00:24:44.485
and there was,

346
00:24:45.265 --> 00:24:48.325
Java and, you know, a bunch of other tech, but

347
00:24:49.860 --> 00:24:52.920
open source really started taking off. And I think,

348
00:24:54.820 --> 00:25:00.760
sure, we didn't have an answer on Bitcoin, but you could build stuff and, you know, push it to the web

349
00:25:02.065 --> 00:25:02.725
pretty much

350
00:25:03.825 --> 00:25:05.685
asking permission. No

351
00:25:06.065 --> 00:25:09.605
one except maybe the dom domain name, but that's, like, a bit nit nitpicking.

352
00:25:11.185 --> 00:25:14.485
So The domain is our shit coin. So yeah. Uh-huh.

353
00:25:14.945 --> 00:25:15.765
Right. Yeah.

354
00:25:16.320 --> 00:25:18.980
So, I mean, let's say that

355
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:24.019
for me, I'm going back to the to the App Store topic.

356
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:25.940
I've had

357
00:25:28.159 --> 00:25:29.220
issues with

358
00:25:31.065 --> 00:25:32.125
so I had frustrations

359
00:25:32.585 --> 00:25:34.845
during, like, multiple touch points because,

360
00:25:35.865 --> 00:25:36.765
as a user,

361
00:25:38.025 --> 00:25:39.805
I've been a Mac user,

362
00:25:40.505 --> 00:25:42.125
for a very, very long time,

363
00:25:42.505 --> 00:25:43.325
like, since

364
00:25:43.785 --> 00:25:46.780
99 that I had a Mac. Oh, wow. And,

365
00:25:47.600 --> 00:25:48.100
and

366
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:48.900
basically,

367
00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:51.780
yeah, on on desktop, like, you could always

368
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:53.860
download executables,

369
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:56.740
but, you know, as time passed,

370
00:25:58.575 --> 00:25:59.955
the, you know, the

371
00:26:00.495 --> 00:26:02.755
the Mac App Store, you know, is

372
00:26:05.135 --> 00:26:09.235
is a way that average people tend to download apps

373
00:26:09.535 --> 00:26:13.155
from on Mac. I think that came from the experiment on iOS,

374
00:26:14.340 --> 00:26:19.000
from the iOS App Store, which I I was also an iOS user for a long time.

375
00:26:20.260 --> 00:26:20.760
And

376
00:26:21.300 --> 00:26:22.120
even though

377
00:26:22.660 --> 00:26:23.880
for the most part,

378
00:26:24.260 --> 00:26:25.160
it just works.

379
00:26:25.645 --> 00:26:29.345
It's just a default curator or from where you download stuff from.

380
00:26:29.725 --> 00:26:33.184
When I started, like, getting more into freedom tech,

381
00:26:34.365 --> 00:26:35.345
I started noticing

382
00:26:35.645 --> 00:26:36.145
things.

383
00:26:38.549 --> 00:26:39.370
And on

384
00:26:39.830 --> 00:26:43.049
desktop, I also had another, like, touch point of frustration

385
00:26:43.510 --> 00:26:45.210
coming to, as you mentioned, BGP

386
00:26:45.909 --> 00:26:46.409
because

387
00:26:46.789 --> 00:26:50.809
once you wanna download something like, let's say, Spiro Wallet,

388
00:26:51.429 --> 00:26:52.730
you wanna make sure,

389
00:26:53.445 --> 00:26:56.345
especially in that case, that you are delivering the right binary,

390
00:26:57.365 --> 00:26:57.865
because

391
00:26:58.325 --> 00:27:00.184
you have people that are actually

392
00:27:00.565 --> 00:27:01.065
actively

393
00:27:01.365 --> 00:27:01.865
looking

394
00:27:02.725 --> 00:27:04.505
to sabotage that, right,

395
00:27:04.965 --> 00:27:07.225
fish you or whatever that may be,

396
00:27:08.570 --> 00:27:10.350
to to steal your Bitcoin.

397
00:27:11.290 --> 00:27:11.790
And

398
00:27:12.090 --> 00:27:12.910
that was another

399
00:27:13.370 --> 00:27:14.990
big frustration because I'm quite

400
00:27:16.570 --> 00:27:17.790
obsessed with UX.

401
00:27:20.025 --> 00:27:21.005
It might not

402
00:27:21.305 --> 00:27:24.045
show in my work or partially, but

403
00:27:25.305 --> 00:27:29.565
let's say that it's, oh, I always strive for that, so I do care about it.

404
00:27:29.945 --> 00:27:30.445
And

405
00:27:30.985 --> 00:27:33.325
and so I wanna translate, you know, all this

406
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:39.020
all this energy into something. So I I think everything came together as I was saying before

407
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:40.140
with,

408
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:46.460
the p g the like, the PGP frustration, which I can talk about more in detail.

409
00:27:47.495 --> 00:27:53.835
But then the whole, like, app store as a user, and especially since for the past few years I was working building apps,

410
00:27:54.695 --> 00:27:56.635
I was exposed to

411
00:27:57.575 --> 00:27:58.395
the app store

412
00:27:59.730 --> 00:28:01.910
submission process as a developer,

413
00:28:02.690 --> 00:28:03.190
and

414
00:28:03.490 --> 00:28:06.310
it was extremely annoying. I think it still is.

415
00:28:06.770 --> 00:28:09.270
Fortunately, I'm disconnected from that already,

416
00:28:10.450 --> 00:28:16.905
but it it just it it just just crazy. And, by the way, another example added to what you mentioned is

417
00:28:18.485 --> 00:28:18.985
Sparrow

418
00:28:20.325 --> 00:28:21.385
does not publish

419
00:28:21.685 --> 00:28:26.505
Craigrod does not publish Sparrow to app stores as far as I know. He does not.

420
00:28:27.130 --> 00:28:29.309
But there there have been spirals

421
00:28:29.929 --> 00:28:32.030
in multiple stores, I think,

422
00:28:32.890 --> 00:28:33.549
on Canonical's

423
00:28:33.850 --> 00:28:36.909
Snap Store, on the Apple App Store as well.

424
00:28:37.530 --> 00:28:38.030
And,

425
00:28:38.890 --> 00:28:39.549
you know,

426
00:28:40.304 --> 00:28:43.445
even when he complained, they were taking weeks

427
00:28:43.825 --> 00:28:44.325
to

428
00:28:44.625 --> 00:28:45.365
take down the,

429
00:28:47.585 --> 00:28:48.565
you know, the

430
00:28:48.865 --> 00:28:49.445
the copy.

431
00:28:49.985 --> 00:28:50.485
So

432
00:28:53.330 --> 00:28:54.070
are these

433
00:28:56.450 --> 00:28:57.590
centralized entities,

434
00:28:58.210 --> 00:28:58.950
to be trusted?

435
00:28:59.330 --> 00:29:00.470
I would say yes.

436
00:29:01.570 --> 00:29:02.710
I think they they

437
00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:05.830
they do a good job, and they are absolutely necessary.

438
00:29:08.755 --> 00:29:09.575
But there's

439
00:29:11.315 --> 00:29:13.255
there's not one answer to this question.

440
00:29:13.795 --> 00:29:16.215
I think curators are extremely important.

441
00:29:17.555 --> 00:29:20.695
You know, we can hate all we want on on them, but they are providing,

442
00:29:21.075 --> 00:29:22.055
a lot of value.

443
00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:26.740
But I think we can improve that model.

444
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:29.460
And one of the things that

445
00:29:30.080 --> 00:29:34.180
SaaS store and with the Nostra and the relay model is the idea that

446
00:29:34.560 --> 00:29:37.060
just as on your socials, you can swipe relays.

447
00:29:37.635 --> 00:29:45.335
You know, what if you don't like your app curator? Like, you don't like the SaaS for default relays. You're gonna be able to swap and just

448
00:29:45.635 --> 00:29:47.895
include your own or add or mix and match.

449
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:50.820
So let's,

450
00:29:51.600 --> 00:29:54.900
there's a lot there. Let's talk about your frustrations with PGP.

451
00:29:55.280 --> 00:29:59.220
You said we could go deeper in that. Why why have you been frustrated with PGP?

452
00:30:02.785 --> 00:30:03.285
Well,

453
00:30:03.825 --> 00:30:06.805
because every time you wanna verify software with PGP,

454
00:30:07.665 --> 00:30:08.405
you're basically,

455
00:30:10.225 --> 00:30:17.445
forced to go through a series of steps. I even me as a as a technical person, I did not have

456
00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:26.399
the memory of, like, exactly, you know, what commands should I run. I I needed to go to the command line interface,

457
00:30:27.019 --> 00:30:30.159
and I I had to if it didn't have the

458
00:30:30.815 --> 00:30:34.434
developer in my key chain, I had to go and fetch on some

459
00:30:34.815 --> 00:30:35.475
key server

460
00:30:35.775 --> 00:30:37.875
where the key might or might not be.

461
00:30:38.175 --> 00:30:41.715
I needed to compare fingerprints, and I learned that fingerprints,

462
00:30:43.055 --> 00:30:45.635
though it's rare, could be compromised as well

463
00:30:46.030 --> 00:30:46.530
because

464
00:30:47.070 --> 00:30:54.830
let's face it. Oh, a lot of times and we also do this with end pubs. We just check for, you know, a bunch of it's, you know,

465
00:30:55.790 --> 00:30:57.250
on the start of the thing.

466
00:30:57.630 --> 00:30:58.130
So,

467
00:30:59.585 --> 00:31:00.085
obviously,

468
00:31:01.905 --> 00:31:05.765
average people will not go through all that, and it's clear that

469
00:31:06.225 --> 00:31:07.585
it's it's not a

470
00:31:07.905 --> 00:31:11.205
it's not such if if the user experience is not

471
00:31:11.630 --> 00:31:15.170
decent enough, like, you won't reach all the people that you wanna reach.

472
00:31:16.350 --> 00:31:18.210
Yeah. I mean, it's been around for decades,

473
00:31:20.030 --> 00:31:25.890
and it really just does not have wide usage whatsoever. It's a UX com it's a complete UX nightmare.

474
00:31:26.205 --> 00:31:28.945
And and, you know, I've done a lot of education work

475
00:31:29.485 --> 00:31:29.985
with,

476
00:31:31.005 --> 00:31:35.345
new people entering the space, and their eyes just gloss over. Like, they just

477
00:31:35.965 --> 00:31:40.784
you just know that 99% of people aren't doing it. And I think that goes to your point that

478
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.000
these centralized app stores, while we have some issues with them,

479
00:31:45.840 --> 00:31:53.940
for the overwhelming majority of users, they provided a strong net benefit because they're extremely convenient, and most of the time, they don't get served malicious apps.

480
00:31:55.774 --> 00:31:59.394
So it's a trade off that society has made up until this point, and

481
00:31:59.774 --> 00:32:02.434
it seems like a relatively decent trade off,

482
00:32:03.695 --> 00:32:05.075
but still not ideal.

483
00:32:06.894 --> 00:32:08.255
Okay. So let's talk about

484
00:32:08.860 --> 00:32:10.080
so how does Zapstore

485
00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:11.360
attempt to

486
00:32:11.820 --> 00:32:13.440
to to fix this problem?

487
00:32:15.659 --> 00:32:16.220
So there

488
00:32:17.179 --> 00:32:21.679
we're talking about security mostly. That's what he brought up, and I think it's it's Yeah. Important.

489
00:32:22.380 --> 00:32:23.600
But there are other aspects

490
00:32:24.465 --> 00:32:25.205
to all

491
00:32:25.505 --> 00:32:27.605
this, and the services that that

492
00:32:27.905 --> 00:32:29.605
app stores are are generally

493
00:32:29.985 --> 00:32:31.525
important in software distribution.

494
00:32:32.065 --> 00:32:34.085
But for for the security model,

495
00:32:34.865 --> 00:32:36.085
the idea is that

496
00:32:36.705 --> 00:32:37.205
you

497
00:32:38.810 --> 00:32:41.230
as you are kind of replacing the

498
00:32:42.730 --> 00:32:43.230
so

499
00:32:43.930 --> 00:32:49.710
does everybody understand, like, what GPG is actually doing? But it's right? You're you're verifying to explain it.

500
00:32:50.010 --> 00:32:50.510
Yeah.

501
00:32:52.375 --> 00:32:54.794
So it's it's a way of of verifying

502
00:32:55.174 --> 00:32:55.995
that that,

503
00:32:56.695 --> 00:32:58.635
binary is has been

504
00:32:59.255 --> 00:33:01.355
issued and has been signed by

505
00:33:01.735 --> 00:33:06.715
the author that you think it is, so it's not being tampered with in the middle. Right? That's what we wanna

506
00:33:07.110 --> 00:33:10.010
verify when, we do the GPG verification.

507
00:33:10.630 --> 00:33:11.930
But the thing is with

508
00:33:13.510 --> 00:33:14.170
with Noster,

509
00:33:15.670 --> 00:33:17.130
since it's it's a cryptographic

510
00:33:20.115 --> 00:33:22.455
technology, we can use this to

511
00:33:22.915 --> 00:33:24.615
do something very similar to GPG.

512
00:33:24.995 --> 00:33:27.495
However, the difference with GPG is that

513
00:33:27.875 --> 00:33:28.675
Nasr is,

514
00:33:30.435 --> 00:33:35.980
let's say, an an active social network. So this changes a lot of the dynamics that GPG had

515
00:33:36.280 --> 00:33:37.340
in terms of

516
00:33:39.080 --> 00:33:42.780
having a a because the the the word web of trust

517
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:51.275
probably originated there. Maybe it's from somewhere else, but it was it was I think it did with GPG. Yeah. Right. Right. You you would vouch

518
00:33:51.655 --> 00:33:56.235
for other keys, and you were, like, kinda store that in your I would, like, sign your key,

519
00:33:56.535 --> 00:34:02.475
and I'd put it in a mailing list or something. And I'd be like, this is Fran's key, and you know my key, so this is a good key.

520
00:34:03.080 --> 00:34:03.580
Mhmm.

521
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:11.900
That was like the original web of trust. But we couldn't bootstrap it and never really got bootstrapped because it was just like a bunch of nerds signing each other's keys.

522
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:15.180
But with Noster, we're effectively bootstrapping

523
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:17.145
web of trust and verifiable

524
00:34:17.625 --> 00:34:19.005
reputation with shitposts.

525
00:34:19.625 --> 00:34:24.285
That's the key. It's like humanity needs shitposts to actually bootstrap the thing.

526
00:34:26.025 --> 00:34:26.925
Yeah. A 100%.

527
00:34:28.025 --> 00:34:29.305
We're basically using

528
00:34:29.940 --> 00:34:34.280
we're calling web of trust to something that technically is not web of trust.

529
00:34:35.540 --> 00:34:36.599
Or, I mean,

530
00:34:37.460 --> 00:34:40.280
if you trust people that you follow,

531
00:34:41.220 --> 00:34:44.440
which is a weak proxy in my opinion. Well, that's why I like verifiable reputation. Verifiable

532
00:34:48.565 --> 00:34:49.704
reputation. As a term.

533
00:34:50.885 --> 00:34:51.385
Yeah.

534
00:34:53.045 --> 00:34:53.765
Because, like

535
00:34:54.805 --> 00:34:56.724
I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean

536
00:34:58.610 --> 00:35:01.830
so if I follow Gigi and you follow Gigi

537
00:35:02.610 --> 00:35:04.230
and Gigi has made,

538
00:35:04.770 --> 00:35:05.830
you know, 10,000

539
00:35:06.130 --> 00:35:06.630
different

540
00:35:07.330 --> 00:35:09.030
verifiable events on Noster,

541
00:35:12.875 --> 00:35:19.695
You can a a a external observer, someone who's new to Noster that comes in, can have a pretty good

542
00:35:20.235 --> 00:35:22.095
expectation that that is Gigi

543
00:35:22.475 --> 00:35:27.650
and an expectation of what his past has been in a digital Noster sense.

544
00:35:28.430 --> 00:35:30.849
So that to me is like a verifiable reputation

545
00:35:31.630 --> 00:35:33.170
rather than necessarily meaning

546
00:35:33.630 --> 00:35:38.770
I have, like there's no, like, trust score or something. It's not like I'm saying I I trust this person,

547
00:35:40.670 --> 00:35:41.625
a certain amount.

548
00:35:42.185 --> 00:35:47.005
And, usually, scammers will not put a long reputation on the line. So it's it's like

549
00:35:47.625 --> 00:35:48.525
in some way,

550
00:35:49.145 --> 00:35:49.805
and that's

551
00:35:50.185 --> 00:35:52.845
it's it's social capital, really, that is on the line.

552
00:35:53.625 --> 00:35:54.125
So

553
00:35:54.665 --> 00:35:56.285
that is one of the things that

554
00:35:57.570 --> 00:35:59.350
that I in I thought for

555
00:36:00.050 --> 00:36:04.310
for Zapstore because now we could bring, like, this idea of level of trust from

556
00:36:04.610 --> 00:36:05.110
GPG

557
00:36:05.490 --> 00:36:05.990
and

558
00:36:06.290 --> 00:36:08.070
actually apply it in a social context.

559
00:36:09.170 --> 00:36:09.670
So

560
00:36:10.450 --> 00:36:12.230
that's how the idea of

561
00:36:13.065 --> 00:36:14.525
prompting before installation

562
00:36:15.385 --> 00:36:18.765
whether to, you know, just assign her. And then

563
00:36:19.385 --> 00:36:27.770
for those who are not familiar with the app, like, the first time you are about to install, an app, For now, it's it's only on Android that this works,

564
00:36:29.110 --> 00:36:32.090
and you get a prompt and you have to

565
00:36:32.790 --> 00:36:33.290
check

566
00:36:33.750 --> 00:36:36.250
that this person is the one that you think it is.

567
00:36:37.030 --> 00:36:38.570
And you see a little

568
00:36:39.510 --> 00:36:40.010
widget

569
00:36:40.310 --> 00:36:40.810
with

570
00:36:41.885 --> 00:36:44.145
people that you follow who follow the signer.

571
00:36:44.765 --> 00:36:49.505
And this is the way of seeing you can also tap and go to, I think, and you can go to,

572
00:36:49.805 --> 00:36:51.505
you know, an awesome social client

573
00:36:51.885 --> 00:36:57.740
and see for yourself if you don't trust, what I'm what I'm telling you. But that's a good enough approximation

574
00:36:58.040 --> 00:36:59.260
to tell whether

575
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:03.820
that signer might be a fake,

576
00:37:05.240 --> 00:37:06.140
or an impersonator

577
00:37:06.680 --> 00:37:07.740
or or not.

578
00:37:08.600 --> 00:37:09.660
Well, like, let's

579
00:37:10.040 --> 00:37:10.540
let's

580
00:37:13.615 --> 00:37:14.115
let's

581
00:37:15.694 --> 00:37:18.115
let's bring it down to its core. Right? So

582
00:37:18.655 --> 00:37:25.375
so so from a practical sense, if you're a Zapstore user, what you what you do is you're using an Android phone. And and Android

583
00:37:25.900 --> 00:37:35.119
one of the beautiful things about Android is you can install apps from outside of the the designated app store. So Zapstore itself is an app. So you're you you go to zapstore.dev.

584
00:37:36.140 --> 00:37:47.805
You download the APK file, that app that that that binary, that application file. You install Zapstore. You have Zapstore. Now all of a sudden you have 2 app stores. You have Google Play, the official App Store, and you have Zapstore.

585
00:37:48.345 --> 00:37:49.805
And then once you have Zapstore,

586
00:37:50.745 --> 00:37:54.510
when you download an app, when you go to download an app, let's say the app

587
00:37:55.870 --> 00:37:58.130
let's say the app is Primal, right,

588
00:37:58.830 --> 00:38:00.690
and it's signed by 1,000,000,

589
00:38:01.550 --> 00:38:04.370
the the lead dev of Primal, the creator of Primal,

590
00:38:04.990 --> 00:38:08.770
when you go to download it, you wanna make sure that it hasn't been changed since

591
00:38:09.855 --> 00:38:10.355
since,

592
00:38:11.215 --> 00:38:15.155
1,000,000 uploaded it. It'll say signed by 1,000,000.

593
00:38:16.015 --> 00:38:18.275
1,000,000 is followed by Fran, Odell,

594
00:38:18.575 --> 00:38:19.075
Gigi,

595
00:38:19.615 --> 00:38:21.155
jb 55, whoever.

596
00:38:21.490 --> 00:38:26.230
Mhmm. And it's based on your who you follow. So it's like, I follow these people

597
00:38:26.530 --> 00:38:27.990
and they also follow

598
00:38:28.450 --> 00:38:33.990
this person and I know it's I know it's the real person. Right? And then you press install.

599
00:38:34.665 --> 00:38:35.165
Yeah.

600
00:38:36.105 --> 00:38:39.565
So first of all, we need, Millian to actually sign primal.

601
00:38:40.105 --> 00:38:41.725
Oh, it's a bad example. Okay.

602
00:38:42.345 --> 00:38:42.845
I

603
00:38:43.465 --> 00:38:45.005
know I know it will come.

604
00:38:46.185 --> 00:38:46.345
But

605
00:38:47.300 --> 00:38:50.680
yeah, that's that's basically the idea. Even though I'm thinking

606
00:38:51.619 --> 00:38:53.800
that there might be other approaches

607
00:38:54.500 --> 00:38:57.880
to that Okay. And don't necessarily rely on web of trust,

608
00:38:58.260 --> 00:38:59.160
but you could

609
00:38:59.955 --> 00:39:02.135
or you could rely on, let's say,

610
00:39:03.155 --> 00:39:03.815
a relay.

611
00:39:04.595 --> 00:39:07.415
Okay? So when with all this talk around,

612
00:39:08.195 --> 00:39:09.015
relay communities,

613
00:39:09.475 --> 00:39:17.559
you could say, well, in this community, people upload apps to it, and it's a closed community, so I trust the moderator of that relay.

614
00:39:18.099 --> 00:39:25.400
And then that's fine. Anything that isn't there, I trust. But the whole point here being that curators are fine, they're necessary,

615
00:39:26.205 --> 00:39:27.185
but we need

616
00:39:27.805 --> 00:39:31.185
to just break from the centralized top down approach

617
00:39:31.565 --> 00:39:39.505
and say, like, no. I actually want this company with this reputation to be my curator, or I wanna I wanna have 2 or 3 or whatever

618
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:40.460
or

619
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:42.460
none and just go buy WebTrust

620
00:39:43.080 --> 00:39:44.300
or a mix of both.

621
00:39:44.680 --> 00:39:48.700
I think that is the innovation here with respect to decentralized stores.

622
00:39:49.160 --> 00:39:51.260
Obviously, this is on Apple is,

623
00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:53.740
or at least I should say on iOS.

624
00:39:54.040 --> 00:39:54.540
It's

625
00:39:57.035 --> 00:39:58.335
difficult to impossible,

626
00:39:59.035 --> 00:39:59.855
at the moment.

627
00:40:00.875 --> 00:40:03.515
We can talk more in detail about that, but,

628
00:40:04.474 --> 00:40:06.734
it is effectively a monopoly in many places.

629
00:40:07.035 --> 00:40:10.255
So They don't let you install another app store?

630
00:40:10.980 --> 00:40:14.040
No. Except in Europe if you go through some bureaucracy,

631
00:40:14.900 --> 00:40:18.840
you know. So are you gonna go through the bureaucracy for the good of mankind?

632
00:40:21.140 --> 00:40:22.680
Gotta think about that one.

633
00:40:23.595 --> 00:40:24.575
But I want

634
00:40:25.195 --> 00:40:26.494
to. I want to. I'm tempted.

635
00:40:27.035 --> 00:40:35.055
Yeah. Well, because there's, like, an EU antitrust ruling that they're forced to, but they did the bare minimum, right, to allow them. It's not as open as Android.

636
00:40:35.530 --> 00:40:36.030
Right.

637
00:40:36.490 --> 00:40:39.230
Yeah. So that's why it was started on Android.

638
00:40:39.690 --> 00:40:41.710
And by the way, this even though

639
00:40:42.250 --> 00:40:43.390
no one uses it,

640
00:40:44.010 --> 00:40:45.070
there is a client

641
00:40:46.170 --> 00:40:47.310
for CLI.

642
00:40:48.325 --> 00:40:51.785
So there are packages that are you know, when you go to, like, your

643
00:40:52.245 --> 00:40:54.665
terminal package manager, like home brew

644
00:40:55.525 --> 00:41:00.825
or APT or DNF, whatever that might be, like, there is some the sap store actually does work.

645
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:06.260
And this command line tool is what developers are using

646
00:41:07.359 --> 00:41:08.740
to basically sign

647
00:41:09.040 --> 00:41:12.020
the events when they when they sign the apps. Right?

648
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.220
So now it's basically only used by devs,

649
00:41:16.055 --> 00:41:18.954
but, it is possible, like, it's fully functional.

650
00:41:19.494 --> 00:41:25.434
I think there are just 5 apps in there, so it's not known. I don't push it too much for now, but it's

651
00:41:25.894 --> 00:41:30.359
perfectly functional on multiple operating systems right now.

652
00:41:31.380 --> 00:41:34.760
So the goal is to try to cover as many OSs as possible.

653
00:41:36.020 --> 00:41:38.200
I don't wanna make, of course, any promises

654
00:41:38.580 --> 00:41:40.040
as to when things will be,

655
00:41:40.820 --> 00:41:42.040
available, but

656
00:41:44.295 --> 00:41:48.875
I wanna make I wanna bring this to to the macOS as as the next,

657
00:41:49.895 --> 00:41:57.755
step. Yeah. It'd be great to have it on desktop specific I mean, specifically for a lot of Bitcoin software and other open source software that we rely on.

658
00:41:59.570 --> 00:42:00.070
So

659
00:42:02.450 --> 00:42:02.950
the

660
00:42:03.410 --> 00:42:05.590
the other piece that I think is cool here

661
00:42:06.930 --> 00:42:08.790
about using Nostr as

662
00:42:09.090 --> 00:42:10.230
the signing mechanism

663
00:42:10.690 --> 00:42:13.750
is someone can actually if they don't have a Nostr account,

664
00:42:14.315 --> 00:42:16.575
if they have someone they trust in their community,

665
00:42:17.195 --> 00:42:18.415
they can just take

666
00:42:19.035 --> 00:42:27.055
that person's end pub and use their web of trust. Right? So, like, someone could just sign in with my end pub, for instance, and it's based on who I follow

667
00:42:27.595 --> 00:42:28.095
Yeah.

668
00:42:28.950 --> 00:42:39.050
Which is, like, I think, a cool bootstrapping mechanism. If someone's not actually active in the Nostra ecosystem but still wants to take advantage of it, all they need is one person they trust in the Nostra ecosystem, and they can kinda just

669
00:42:39.510 --> 00:42:40.010
piggyback

670
00:42:40.310 --> 00:42:42.815
that reputation from them. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

671
00:42:43.275 --> 00:42:48.734
But that I think would show eventually through the web of trust because if you are following 1 person,

672
00:42:49.115 --> 00:42:52.255
then that's kind of your opening to the whole network. Right.

673
00:42:52.714 --> 00:42:53.214
It's

674
00:42:53.835 --> 00:42:54.575
it's it's basically

675
00:42:55.550 --> 00:42:58.130
the same. As long as you follow only one person,

676
00:42:58.590 --> 00:43:00.050
then the web of trust

677
00:43:02.670 --> 00:43:03.170
ranking

678
00:43:03.710 --> 00:43:04.210
should

679
00:43:04.750 --> 00:43:05.810
should show that.

680
00:43:06.750 --> 00:43:08.050
And by the way, I

681
00:43:08.964 --> 00:43:11.145
I have been secretly building

682
00:43:11.845 --> 00:43:12.345
something,

683
00:43:13.444 --> 00:43:18.425
for a web of trust service that is, like, just way, way, way, way better.

684
00:43:19.045 --> 00:43:23.625
I've been doing this with, Pibelia, so shout out to him. We'll announce something soon.

685
00:43:24.210 --> 00:43:26.470
But it it's That's all you're gonna give us?

686
00:43:26.770 --> 00:43:27.270
Yes.

687
00:43:27.810 --> 00:43:28.310
Yes.

688
00:43:29.250 --> 00:43:31.910
So it's it's it's similar to

689
00:43:32.210 --> 00:43:37.430
it's similar to this the web of trust service that I'm using right now that is really crappy.

690
00:43:38.664 --> 00:43:39.885
But this is gonna be

691
00:43:40.345 --> 00:43:41.645
just just way better,

692
00:43:42.345 --> 00:43:42.845
way

693
00:43:43.265 --> 00:43:43.765
to,

694
00:43:44.585 --> 00:43:45.724
determine, like,

695
00:43:46.825 --> 00:43:48.765
ranks from your own point of view.

696
00:43:49.065 --> 00:43:49.565
So

697
00:43:49.865 --> 00:43:53.005
you wanna see scores of people, like, from your

698
00:43:53.550 --> 00:43:54.770
own, like, web of trust.

699
00:43:55.470 --> 00:43:58.770
Well, he's the only per I I posted on Nostra that

700
00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:06.765
I was live with you right now. Well, I I posted it when we went live. He's the only one he's the only one who re reposted it.

701
00:44:07.724 --> 00:44:12.464
Alright. So he's bay I think he's basically giving you permission to to tell us what it is.

702
00:44:12.765 --> 00:44:16.944
Yeah. No. I'm kidding. You don't have to. I, to the to the freaks who

703
00:44:18.285 --> 00:44:21.424
to the rider die freaks out there, if you listened to the Nostriga

704
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.180
conversation I had about web of trusts,

705
00:44:26.359 --> 00:44:30.140
at the Riga conference that's on the sale dispatch feed, Pip was one of

706
00:44:30.680 --> 00:44:34.940
the was one of the guests on that panel. That was when I met him for the first time actually

707
00:44:35.295 --> 00:44:38.115
about 2 minutes before we went on stage.

708
00:44:39.535 --> 00:44:52.460
But he's been doing a lot of interesting work in terms of web of trust and verifiable reputation. So I'm pretty excited for whatever you guys have cooked up there. So whatever that is, that's just gonna then be integrated into Zapstore. It's gonna kinda be like a protocolized

709
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:56.700
version of whatever's in Zapstore. Is that the plan?

710
00:44:57.160 --> 00:44:57.820
A 100%.

711
00:44:58.520 --> 00:44:59.020
Cool.

712
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:01.260
And fully master based.

713
00:45:02.120 --> 00:45:03.020
That's awesome.

714
00:45:03.485 --> 00:45:03.985
Yeah.

715
00:45:05.125 --> 00:45:05.625
So,

716
00:45:06.845 --> 00:45:10.305
back to because we've been talking a lot about about security

717
00:45:10.845 --> 00:45:18.145
and how Yeah. That we download the I mean, we're certain that we're downloading the the binders and installing stuff that are from the genuine

718
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:20.300
author and so on, but

719
00:45:21.080 --> 00:45:21.980
I made an exploration

720
00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:23.320
before

721
00:45:23.720 --> 00:45:26.860
sorry. By the way, is my audio really bad? Because I I saw

722
00:45:27.160 --> 00:45:31.340
people Well, someone's roasting you on the YouTube chat about your audio being bad.

723
00:45:31.875 --> 00:45:32.375
Yeah.

724
00:45:32.675 --> 00:45:37.155
No. It's fine. I mean, he's not a podcaster. He's building a future app store for us.

725
00:45:38.355 --> 00:45:39.315
So it's

726
00:45:39.715 --> 00:45:48.990
we we can understand you. It's just, you know, it's not a professional mic. He's telling you to buy a mic. So he wants we're gonna pause the podcast. We're gonna pause the show.

727
00:45:49.290 --> 00:45:51.869
You're gonna go to the store. You're gonna buy a mic and come back.

728
00:45:52.170 --> 00:45:54.910
Yeah. Well, Chris, you're coming. Right? So

729
00:45:55.930 --> 00:46:02.705
I could just fly out there and do this for you. My producer Paul said he'll fly out fly out to you and and just bring you a mic.

730
00:46:03.405 --> 00:46:07.105
If if you want if you want Fran to have a better mic next time he visits,

731
00:46:07.805 --> 00:46:11.550
make sure you zap him on Noster, and so he'll go and buy a mic with your sets.

732
00:46:12.350 --> 00:46:15.490
Right. But you sound fine. Don't worry about it. Cool.

733
00:46:16.190 --> 00:46:19.090
So I was going to mention I I went into an exploration,

734
00:46:20.190 --> 00:46:20.690
just

735
00:46:23.805 --> 00:46:28.785
after one of these, like, frustration moments, it was about a year ago or a bit a bit longer.

736
00:46:29.645 --> 00:46:30.145
And

737
00:46:32.925 --> 00:46:34.545
even when, like, the

738
00:46:34.845 --> 00:46:36.545
main issue was security,

739
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:40.260
I got into, like, what are apps for?

740
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:45.780
What what what role do they play? And there are many more things about it. I wrote about

741
00:46:46.120 --> 00:46:46.620
it

742
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:49.940
early January. I posted something on Stacker News.

743
00:46:50.815 --> 00:46:51.875
Should be there on

744
00:46:52.415 --> 00:46:52.995
on zapstore.dev/blog.

745
00:46:54.095 --> 00:46:59.875
I think the article is there. If you wanna if you wanna read this quite long because I went deep into the rabbit hole

746
00:47:00.255 --> 00:47:05.455
of app stores and and software distribution and what the problems were even before start

747
00:47:06.470 --> 00:47:08.970
starting with the first line of code for the solution.

748
00:47:09.349 --> 00:47:09.849
Cool.

749
00:47:10.150 --> 00:47:15.450
And besides all the security stuff that that we talked about, and there's more on in that article,

750
00:47:16.869 --> 00:47:19.049
there's other aspects like

751
00:47:21.895 --> 00:47:22.395
discoverability.

752
00:47:23.655 --> 00:47:26.315
So that's that's a huge one that we always talk

753
00:47:26.935 --> 00:47:28.075
about in Noster.

754
00:47:29.335 --> 00:47:35.900
How do we discover the content that we want? It's a it's a huge shopping for more social media clients, but also

755
00:47:36.200 --> 00:47:42.539
for apps. And really the stores do offer this. So you go there and you have categories

756
00:47:42.839 --> 00:47:43.579
or you have,

757
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:47.020
I don't know, but actually it's pretty bad. For me,

758
00:47:48.045 --> 00:47:50.944
whenever I I entered the Apple App Store on my iPhone,

759
00:47:51.885 --> 00:47:54.385
I just got, like, recommendations for games

760
00:47:54.765 --> 00:47:57.825
and a lot of games and shit. Did you play a lot of games?

761
00:47:58.285 --> 00:48:04.640
0. I'm not a gamer person. Maybe the games are where they make a lot of money. Right? So it's all about incentives.

762
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:05.840
Yeah.

763
00:48:06.620 --> 00:48:10.320
But that's has nothing to do with me. So why I'm in secret?

764
00:48:12.255 --> 00:48:15.555
And that was a very interesting exploration because,

765
00:48:18.575 --> 00:48:20.115
you know, when you when you

766
00:48:21.454 --> 00:48:30.540
when you add Nostra as a as a social layer to something weird as an app store, you know, not only we can expect to have a social network within

767
00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:36.140
a place where you download apps, but this is the the the power of Nasr, the interoperability

768
00:48:36.520 --> 00:48:38.940
where you see it shine is that you can bring

769
00:48:39.654 --> 00:48:41.115
this social layer to,

770
00:48:41.494 --> 00:48:47.515
like, places you would never thought before. And I'm really positive that Apple and Google will never, like, bootstrap

771
00:48:47.815 --> 00:48:50.315
a social network for that particular use case.

772
00:48:50.615 --> 00:48:54.795
Well, Google tried. I don't know if you remember Google Plus. Google Plus.

773
00:48:55.130 --> 00:48:56.190
It was like a massive

774
00:48:56.490 --> 00:48:56.990
disaster.

775
00:48:58.410 --> 00:48:59.470
Complete failure.

776
00:49:00.090 --> 00:49:00.590
I,

777
00:49:03.050 --> 00:49:09.390
I actually just had a little bit of PTSD. I when I interviewed Jack Dorsey, I I called Blue Sky an unmitigated

778
00:49:09.770 --> 00:49:10.270
disaster,

779
00:49:11.445 --> 00:49:18.505
and he said that's the terminology that Business Insider uses for all their clickbait pieces. So I just had a little bit of PTSD about that.

780
00:49:19.205 --> 00:49:21.385
But Google plus was a disaster.

781
00:49:22.325 --> 00:49:29.230
No one used it. It it had a little bit of uptake in the beginning and then poor development or whatever. But that was one of their goals was

782
00:49:29.610 --> 00:49:31.070
to mix Google Plus

783
00:49:31.610 --> 00:49:33.550
with, like, App Store reviews

784
00:49:34.570 --> 00:49:36.030
and Google Maps reviews.

785
00:49:36.545 --> 00:49:45.605
Right? Like, they have the Google Maps reviews in YouTube. Right? Google's YouTube. So they tried to put the whole picture together, but it's really hard to do in a centralized fashion. And, obviously,

786
00:49:46.145 --> 00:49:51.285
Nostr has many advantages there where you can just have this open protocol and just have a lot of developers

787
00:49:52.010 --> 00:49:54.750
do different things. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That's a good example.

788
00:49:55.290 --> 00:49:57.550
But also you need to be

789
00:49:57.930 --> 00:50:00.589
Google, and you need to have a product that Right.

790
00:50:01.530 --> 00:50:03.630
If I give an example of

791
00:50:04.345 --> 00:50:06.125
a friend who started to bootstrap,

792
00:50:07.225 --> 00:50:09.485
what was it, like, it's app for skiers.

793
00:50:10.185 --> 00:50:14.365
Okay. So it is super niche. You're gonna you're gonna build a social network

794
00:50:15.145 --> 00:50:17.825
just for skiers. I mean, my work really ridiculous.

795
00:50:18.265 --> 00:50:19.645
Is incredibly difficult.

796
00:50:20.160 --> 00:50:20.660
So

797
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:28.500
Well, they all try and do it. Right? It's like hiking apps or whatever. They all try and create, like, communities around,

798
00:50:29.040 --> 00:50:33.619
like, little niche communities, and they have to bootstrap it from the for themselves. It's very difficult,

799
00:50:33.924 --> 00:50:36.505
but they all try. I feel like a lot of them try.

800
00:50:38.724 --> 00:50:39.224
Yeah.

801
00:50:40.244 --> 00:50:44.664
Well, they they will discover Nostra eventually. I think just being able to

802
00:50:44.964 --> 00:50:45.464
have

803
00:50:46.370 --> 00:50:49.430
a lot of users. Well, we're not too many right now, but

804
00:50:50.050 --> 00:50:51.830
just way more than 0

805
00:50:52.210 --> 00:50:56.150
is very so that's why I think Nasr will keep keep growing.

806
00:50:57.250 --> 00:50:58.790
We'll see what happens. But

807
00:50:59.410 --> 00:51:01.365
I was talking about discovery, and

808
00:51:01.825 --> 00:51:04.065
this social layer on Napster all of a sudden

809
00:51:04.464 --> 00:51:04.865
Right.

810
00:51:05.265 --> 00:51:12.005
You can have recommendations from your friends instead of seeing these stupid games I don't care about. What if, like, my home page was

811
00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:17.100
stuff that my friends are becoming recommending or making the app packs or,

812
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:20.860
all of a sudden, I think this is it is huge for

813
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:32.065
for for anything really, but particularly for Freedom Tech because Right. Freedom Tech might not be a priority for Apple or Google, but, you know, if it's a priority for your friends, you know, then

814
00:51:32.705 --> 00:51:33.445
and, also,

815
00:51:34.065 --> 00:51:42.420
you have every single app. You don't you don't you don't have, like you're not censored there. It's not just the Freedom Tech apps that are available on stores, on the main stores.

816
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:44.099
It's whatever,

817
00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:47.540
you know, your friends are recommending on any really.

818
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:53.540
I mean, that's a really good point because, you know, I always looked at it from the security point of view because I just hated

819
00:51:54.485 --> 00:51:54.985
PGP

820
00:51:55.605 --> 00:52:02.585
I mean, I don't hate I use it. I actually am probably one of the few people that have historically used it because I've had no choice.

821
00:52:03.285 --> 00:52:06.105
You don't you don't wanna download a malicious Sparrow wallet.

822
00:52:08.885 --> 00:52:09.270
But,

823
00:52:11.430 --> 00:52:20.570
the discovery element of traditional app stores is a key. Even if it's poor discovery, it's a key aspect. Right? Like, people like, if you want if you need a weather app,

824
00:52:21.190 --> 00:52:26.895
you you're not you open the app store and you type in weather and and you wanna see what is the top rated

825
00:52:27.435 --> 00:52:28.255
weather app,

826
00:52:28.795 --> 00:52:38.980
for you and then you go and get the weather app. Now if that was like Fran and Odell really like this weather app, that'd be way more useful for me than just, like, randoms

827
00:52:39.680 --> 00:52:42.339
leaving star based reviews and maybe,

828
00:52:43.040 --> 00:52:48.420
like, you know, flaming out the developer and and the text reviews or whatever and, like, you read the reviews.

829
00:52:48.720 --> 00:52:55.515
That's way better. That makes a lot of sense to me. Discovery might actually be the killer use case here, and then people get the security benefits

830
00:52:57.095 --> 00:53:01.115
as, like, a side effect where they don't even realize that they're getting the security benefits.

831
00:53:02.055 --> 00:53:02.795
Yeah. Absolutely.

832
00:53:03.095 --> 00:53:06.395
I fully agree with that. I think this will bring more people

833
00:53:06.789 --> 00:53:17.849
because it's more stuff or it depends who you ask, but let's say a more average user that doesn't care too much about these things, they will get the side effect, the the benefit of

834
00:53:18.230 --> 00:53:19.849
of security as you say.

835
00:53:20.785 --> 00:53:23.365
So it's a little bit like especially given

836
00:53:25.505 --> 00:53:28.085
the the idea I have to to grow Zapstore

837
00:53:28.545 --> 00:53:29.525
and and reach

838
00:53:30.145 --> 00:53:33.605
more people than just like the Nasir and the Cypherpunk scene.

839
00:53:35.970 --> 00:53:39.110
We will get these people into this into this tech,

840
00:53:40.210 --> 00:53:49.030
and it it kinda works like a Trojan horse. It's like you came for the cool stuff because your friends are recommending, and then all of a sudden when you realize

841
00:53:49.494 --> 00:53:52.635
you have an insect and you're making Bitcoin payments.

842
00:53:55.015 --> 00:53:55.994
The other piece

843
00:53:58.535 --> 00:54:00.714
here so so we have security,

844
00:54:01.734 --> 00:54:05.420
which, by the way, I feel like I need to say this just to explain

845
00:54:05.720 --> 00:54:06.220
the

846
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:10.700
security threat model when you're thinking about these things with open source software.

847
00:54:11.160 --> 00:54:12.859
First of all, it's important that

848
00:54:13.319 --> 00:54:19.455
software is open source so that people can verify the code. And even if you're not verifying the code, that other people are verifying the code,

849
00:54:19.855 --> 00:54:23.555
and that's not doing things that it's that it says it's not doing.

850
00:54:25.055 --> 00:54:34.275
And then, ideally, it's reproducible. So you're able to verify the code, and then you're also people are able to replicate the actual creation of the binaries, creation of that application.

851
00:54:34.890 --> 00:54:36.510
Then once you get to that step,

852
00:54:36.890 --> 00:54:49.309
you wanna make sure it hasn't been changed so it gets hashed. And by hashing it, you can verify easily from the hash that it hasn't been changed. And then you sign the hash to make sure that it hasn't been banned in the middle. This whole process

853
00:54:49.905 --> 00:54:50.645
is obviously

854
00:54:51.105 --> 00:54:51.925
just immediately

855
00:54:52.385 --> 00:55:03.125
9 out of 10 users, their eyes gloss over, and an app store automates that entire process. Now we have walled gardens that do that, and obviously, walled garden's bad in terms of freedom.

856
00:55:03.620 --> 00:55:04.280
And Zapstore

857
00:55:04.580 --> 00:55:05.720
aims to be

858
00:55:06.100 --> 00:55:09.320
the the alternative there. So but we talked about security,

859
00:55:10.980 --> 00:55:11.480
discovery.

860
00:55:12.100 --> 00:55:20.555
Then the other thing is, I mean, from a developer perspective, it's gotta be monetization. Like, these app stores are taking huge cuts. Like, Epic Games got into a huge fight

861
00:55:20.855 --> 00:55:24.635
with Apple. You still cannot play Fortnite on iOS or Mac,

862
00:55:25.895 --> 00:55:27.915
because Epic doesn't wanna pay,

863
00:55:28.535 --> 00:55:31.680
you know, 30% or 20% or whatever the cut is,

864
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:40.500
to Apple, and they've they've never made nice over that. I mean, I think that was part of the lawsuit that resulted in the alternative app stores in the first place.

865
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:51.925
Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. So how do you think about that part? Like, are you thinking about that aspect too? Like, this this developers not wanting to give up, like, part of the revenue stream?

866
00:55:53.265 --> 00:55:57.525
Yeah. Definitely. That was that was part of it. And I feel like I'm with

867
00:55:57.825 --> 00:55:58.325
Zapstore,

868
00:55:59.750 --> 00:56:01.690
which is a store where you cannot zap.

869
00:56:02.390 --> 00:56:05.210
But it's it's coming. It's coming.

870
00:56:05.829 --> 00:56:08.250
I I I definitely thought about the monetization,

871
00:56:09.349 --> 00:56:09.849
and,

872
00:56:10.150 --> 00:56:11.450
you know, the obvious

873
00:56:11.750 --> 00:56:12.730
theme is

874
00:56:13.575 --> 00:56:15.755
allow devs to receive

875
00:56:16.935 --> 00:56:18.155
money, like, be it

876
00:56:18.535 --> 00:56:28.395
value for value or payables or whatever the model is more convenient for them. Right. If you have, like, the permission as nature of publishing apps to

877
00:56:28.750 --> 00:56:30.770
any communities and you realize any curators,

878
00:56:31.310 --> 00:56:33.090
and then you can receive,

879
00:56:33.870 --> 00:56:35.970
money directly from your users,

880
00:56:36.750 --> 00:56:38.610
I think that that's killer. Like,

881
00:56:40.110 --> 00:56:42.690
if you compare it to, like, the permission, KYC,

882
00:56:43.070 --> 00:56:44.210
by the way, KYC,

883
00:56:45.444 --> 00:56:49.704
15 to 30% that these the cuts that these stores are are taking,

884
00:56:50.325 --> 00:56:52.105
it's just like the improvement is massive.

885
00:56:54.005 --> 00:56:56.025
And and what most people don't realize

886
00:56:57.180 --> 00:56:58.000
is when,

887
00:56:58.780 --> 00:57:01.359
Steve Jobs first announced the App Store,

888
00:57:03.660 --> 00:57:05.839
just from the discovery element alone,

889
00:57:06.220 --> 00:57:07.520
most there was,

890
00:57:08.140 --> 00:57:16.955
you know, thousands 100 of thousands of developers around the world that were very excited about the discovery element and willing to pay that amount of money for it.

891
00:57:17.735 --> 00:57:20.555
Pay that cut. They thought that cut was actually at the time,

892
00:57:21.495 --> 00:57:24.795
there was a lot of feelings that that it was a reasonable cut.

893
00:57:25.450 --> 00:57:27.390
But it's interesting that, like, as

894
00:57:28.810 --> 00:57:39.310
that industry has gotten much, much larger, like, in terms of revenue generation, you know, 1,000,000,000 of dollars of revenue generation, just Fortnite alone from Epic Games is 1,000,000,000 of dollars a year.

895
00:57:40.525 --> 00:57:42.705
That cut seems more and more predatory.

896
00:57:43.485 --> 00:57:45.345
And there so there is a big movement,

897
00:57:46.445 --> 00:57:48.945
by developers to try and get out of that

898
00:57:50.685 --> 00:57:56.839
that almost like slavery type relationship where, like, their entire fate is dictated by a single company.

899
00:57:58.020 --> 00:58:00.280
Yeah. That's a great point. I I don't know where

900
00:58:00.660 --> 00:58:04.760
it's where the line where you can draw the line, but it it it feels parasitic

901
00:58:05.140 --> 00:58:06.200
at some point because

902
00:58:06.500 --> 00:58:07.799
you you kind of already

903
00:58:09.025 --> 00:58:10.705
established the connection between

904
00:58:11.425 --> 00:58:14.405
because, obviously, this is a marketplace, and you're connecting

905
00:58:14.785 --> 00:58:20.885
you're connecting the 2 sites, or you're taking cuts for, like the relationship was already established, and you're taking cuts

906
00:58:21.505 --> 00:58:22.325
all the time.

907
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:27.020
So that does seem parasitic to me. I understand if you just make the connection once,

908
00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:32.859
but, you know, that's it's my opinion. But that's why we have

909
00:58:33.559 --> 00:58:37.475
the ability to to to improve all this all this situation. And

910
00:58:40.335 --> 00:58:41.055
Yeah. I mean, you even

911
00:58:41.855 --> 00:58:44.915
I love these, like, real world examples. Right? Like, they're,

912
00:58:45.935 --> 00:58:46.435
Amazon,

913
00:58:46.895 --> 00:58:52.490
right, one of the most valuable companies in the world, and Apple, one of the most valuable companies in the world,

914
00:58:53.110 --> 00:58:55.690
if you want to buy a new Kindle book

915
00:58:56.390 --> 00:59:00.730
on an Apple product, you're on iOS and you wanna buy a new Kindle book,

916
00:59:01.350 --> 00:59:05.944
Apple insists on taking a cut. So Amazon will not sell you a Kindle

917
00:59:06.244 --> 00:59:08.345
book. I've noticed this because I was I'm

918
00:59:09.045 --> 00:59:09.944
I'm lead

919
00:59:10.325 --> 00:59:16.424
lead IT man of my of my my parents, and my mom wanted to buy a book on her iPad.

920
00:59:16.900 --> 00:59:20.200
And you literally have to go onto desktop to buy actually,

921
00:59:20.580 --> 00:59:22.040
you can go into Safari

922
00:59:22.740 --> 00:59:23.880
on the iPad,

923
00:59:24.180 --> 00:59:29.400
and you could buy the book at Amazon dotcom and then press send to Kindle app,

924
00:59:29.934 --> 00:59:37.795
and then Apple doesn't get the cut, but you're not allowed to buy it directly in the app with one one button push. Like, that's where we're currently at

925
00:59:38.095 --> 00:59:39.395
in terms of the

926
00:59:39.775 --> 00:59:45.589
the standoff between 2 huge companies. Right? This is not like little developer in a garage

927
00:59:46.130 --> 00:59:49.430
in Thailand or something. This is like 2 massive companies,

928
00:59:50.130 --> 00:59:54.390
and they're in a they're in a pitched battle about this monetization

929
00:59:54.690 --> 00:59:55.190
element.

930
00:59:56.505 --> 00:59:59.484
Yeah. And this reminds me a lot of the discussion around the web.

931
01:00:01.944 --> 01:00:03.405
We had a few posts yesterday,

932
01:00:04.345 --> 01:00:05.165
about this.

933
01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:09.980
I think, kind of triggered by a post by

934
01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:14.220
saying, like, if if 90% of the of the users

935
01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:18.060
on mobile are using apps, like, why I reposted that.

936
01:00:18.520 --> 01:00:19.020
Right.

937
01:00:20.515 --> 01:00:25.095
I love because he, you know, he he he managed to trigger a lot of a lot of feelings there.

938
01:00:25.715 --> 01:00:29.575
No. Just to be clear to the listeners, if you're not actively just

939
01:00:29.875 --> 01:00:34.615
scrolling fiatjaf's nostril feed, which you should be doing, just to be frank,

940
01:00:34.980 --> 01:00:41.800
He said if 90% of users are coming in through mobile, which I think he's correct. Like, most people interact mobile first.

941
01:00:43.220 --> 01:00:49.800
I I think there's, like, billions of people that their main way that they're gonna interact with anything is on mobile or on iPad.

942
01:00:50.815 --> 01:00:53.555
Why is everyone building web apps was his post.

943
01:00:54.975 --> 01:00:55.475
Yeah.

944
01:00:57.215 --> 01:01:00.755
So, yeah, why why so a lot of people

945
01:01:01.295 --> 01:01:05.850
responded to that, and I think it makes a lot of sense because the first reaction is

946
01:01:06.410 --> 01:01:07.130
I want

947
01:01:07.530 --> 01:01:09.070
we wanna be free from these

948
01:01:09.370 --> 01:01:12.430
terrible app stores, and I completely agree.

949
01:01:13.370 --> 01:01:14.190
But I also

950
01:01:14.650 --> 01:01:17.710
try to analyze, like, why is the market clearly

951
01:01:20.095 --> 01:01:24.515
favoring why why are users favoring apps over over web apps or PWAs?

952
01:01:26.975 --> 01:01:28.035
And it's just

953
01:01:29.375 --> 01:01:36.650
the 2 big players, Apple and Google, are obviously doing this on purpose because otherwise, there would be like a JavaScript API to,

954
01:01:37.910 --> 01:01:45.450
put a button on the website and say install. And it will just look your regular app, and it doesn't. There's a reason why they don't wanna do that,

955
01:01:45.750 --> 01:01:47.050
but this is this is reality.

956
01:01:47.465 --> 01:01:54.685
We we cannot change the fact well, Android, as we said, is the most popular operating system in the world. I don't have the numbers, but it's by far.

957
01:01:55.225 --> 01:02:00.765
Yeah. It's like 80, 90% globally or whatever. It's not the case in the US, but globally, yes.

958
01:02:01.225 --> 01:02:01.725
Yeah.

959
01:02:03.460 --> 01:02:05.640
So, I mean, I don't know. Should we, like,

960
01:02:08.420 --> 01:02:16.360
yell at the clouds? Or I mean, that that's the way it is. So we'll try to do the the best we can. And we are fortunate that that Android is an open source project, and

961
01:02:16.725 --> 01:02:19.225
I think Google does have incentive to keep

962
01:02:22.165 --> 01:02:23.385
the the open

963
01:02:24.565 --> 01:02:28.345
keep open the installation of of, APKs and basically

964
01:02:28.725 --> 01:02:31.320
allow for for stores like App Store,

965
01:02:31.940 --> 01:02:32.440
because

966
01:02:32.740 --> 01:02:39.400
of how how that works with manufacturers and so on. But, I don't think that that will change. So I think we're fortunate.

967
01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:43.000
Apple, you know, we'll see what what happens with that.

968
01:02:44.985 --> 01:02:47.805
Yeah. I mean, I I'm not gonna get my hopes up

969
01:02:48.425 --> 01:02:51.565
on Apple. I I do I I have a,

970
01:02:54.025 --> 01:02:57.165
I dip my toe in the meme arena every once in a while,

971
01:02:58.820 --> 01:02:59.320
And,

972
01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:02.520
one of my favorite meme templates is

973
01:03:02.980 --> 01:03:08.280
the, like, Jesus, why do you give me, like, your hardest problems? And I have one, which is, like,

974
01:03:08.740 --> 01:03:09.240
it's

975
01:03:09.620 --> 01:03:16.225
you got banned from a permissioned app store. It's like Jesus just like, this is not a hard problem. Like, get over yourself.

976
01:03:17.085 --> 01:03:21.265
And you're, like, you're being you're being part of that solution. Like, I I do think

977
01:03:21.565 --> 01:03:27.720
that, like, as Bitcoiners, there's, like, a subset of us that go down these ridiculous threat models. Right? It's like, what if,

978
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:51.135
you know, 50 cruise missiles are launched and they get launched at, like, major nodes in the network or whatever? And then there's all like, the 90% of Bitcoiners, like, if an app gets banned from the App Store, they just will lose their shit. They're just like, holy like, what are we gonna do? Like, I can no longer download BlueWallet on on Apple App Store. Like, the state is coming after us. Like, everything's over. We're screwed.

979
01:03:52.715 --> 01:03:56.575
And, like, that's the kind of the status quo right now. But I I think

980
01:03:56.970 --> 01:04:01.869
I think there's a strong argument to be made and maybe it's coming from a bias because I'm someone

981
01:04:02.490 --> 01:04:05.869
who historically has has been an Android user,

982
01:04:07.210 --> 01:04:08.590
where it's like, okay.

983
01:04:09.625 --> 01:04:10.125
Like,

984
01:04:10.745 --> 01:04:14.925
it's it's important that we have polished apps on the Apple App Store.

985
01:04:15.545 --> 01:04:17.165
But in a worst case scenario,

986
01:04:18.105 --> 01:04:21.245
like, just go buy an Android phone. You can get one for, like, $100.

987
01:04:21.990 --> 01:04:29.930
Maybe you can get it for less even. You know, you buy a used Android phone. You can get it for any price point you want, basically, depending on what your specs are,

988
01:04:30.710 --> 01:04:39.285
and then and then use that for the apps that they won't let you use. Like, it's not the worst situation. I but begging Apple, like, Apple's never I mean,

989
01:04:39.665 --> 01:04:45.444
I'm still amazed that they're doing this European thing, and I I'm still skeptical of it. Like, I don't

990
01:04:45.744 --> 01:04:51.060
I've never expected Apple to open more. They've never done that. The trend has always shown they've done the opposite.

991
01:04:51.920 --> 01:04:53.780
Yeah. There's a lot of around

992
01:04:55.520 --> 01:04:57.380
having an app store on

993
01:04:57.839 --> 01:04:58.580
in Europe,

994
01:04:59.520 --> 01:05:00.740
on on iOS.

995
01:05:02.645 --> 01:05:16.230
I'm not too familiar what those are, but I think you need you need to open up your books to Apple, you know, to see that you're not surpassing certain amount of revenue where you should, you know they they gonna take a cut if you exceed that. So it's

996
01:05:16.950 --> 01:05:24.250
a lot of red tape and just kinda crazy. But And they use I think they're using the excuse that they're like, we don't want malicious app stores.

997
01:05:24.790 --> 01:05:25.290
Right?

998
01:05:25.590 --> 01:05:33.455
So they're like, we have to have all these controls in place. So it's it's the we go back to the question of, like, censorship and filtering. You know, where do you draw the line?

999
01:05:33.835 --> 01:05:40.255
Is that you want filtering, you want curation, but at some point, it's like, who's deciding that? Is that who you wanna change? So,

1000
01:05:41.275 --> 01:05:46.975
again, the web does does kind of does solve this in a way, but it's just kinda unfortunate that

1001
01:05:47.580 --> 01:05:50.080
even for a reason, PWAs are not more popular,

1002
01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:51.680
and I wish they were.

1003
01:05:52.620 --> 01:05:55.600
And, actually, I wish to support them in some way

1004
01:05:56.060 --> 01:05:57.120
on Zapier itself.

1005
01:05:57.660 --> 01:05:59.920
So you talked about this. You so PWAs

1006
01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:01.280
guys are progressive

1007
01:06:01.580 --> 01:06:05.484
web apps. So it's it's a website that you go to in Safari or Chrome,

1008
01:06:05.785 --> 01:06:07.404
and then you, like,

1009
01:06:08.424 --> 01:06:12.204
and, quote, unquote, install it on your phone. And then it's still

1010
01:06:12.664 --> 01:06:15.464
a browser window, but it looks like an app,

1011
01:06:17.240 --> 01:06:20.299
and it gives you a lot of the same functionalities as an app.

1012
01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:24.619
But as Fran said, like, we do see situations where

1013
01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:36.085
Google and Apple are they, like, mess with them. They, like, screw around with them and, like, make lives for developers difficult and lives for users difficult when you use them. But I think you had a a note where you were like,

1014
01:06:36.545 --> 01:06:41.605
I want, like, a Zap store PWA store. Is that did you not have a note like that?

1015
01:06:42.305 --> 01:06:42.805
Yeah.

1016
01:06:43.105 --> 01:06:44.065
I started by

1017
01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:47.500
because I was listening to

1018
01:06:47.960 --> 01:06:49.260
your rep with Cali

1019
01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:50.460
Right. And

1020
01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:54.700
he was talking about, I think it's cashew. Me.

1021
01:06:55.080 --> 01:06:58.775
Yeah. It's pwa cashew wallet, cashew. Me. It's great.

1022
01:06:59.075 --> 01:07:04.055
I I love the idea. That's great. I was just I would it just triggered these thoughts in my mind, like, what's

1023
01:07:04.595 --> 01:07:10.694
you know, why, PWS didn't take off. I was also talking to Halabot about this because he

1024
01:07:11.600 --> 01:07:19.700
initially is, like, more like a web developer, but then he he published apps, but he's, like, web dev first. And he asked me why

1025
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:26.740
are computer based kinda struggling in a way like they're not way more popular. I think it's just the same topics. It's it's just discovery.

1026
01:07:27.654 --> 01:07:28.954
And and you have

1027
01:07:29.974 --> 01:07:35.994
do you have central places to discover these these things? Yeah. Maybe. You can group them in in in another website,

1028
01:07:36.454 --> 01:07:38.714
but the UX for installing

1029
01:07:39.095 --> 01:07:40.234
is purposefully

1030
01:07:41.600 --> 01:07:42.100
annoying.

1031
01:07:42.400 --> 01:07:43.460
So that's why,

1032
01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:46.080
you know, you need to go to tap,

1033
01:07:46.400 --> 01:07:47.700
3 dots or whatever,

1034
01:07:48.240 --> 01:07:48.740
and

1035
01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:58.234
I don't even know. Just tap on, like, install as a home screen and then click okay, and that you you lose 90% of the users there. Yep.

1036
01:07:59.174 --> 01:08:07.115
That that is the huge that that's the biggest problem. And then, obviously, I think that not being able to because websites are constantly,

1037
01:08:07.575 --> 01:08:14.330
like, moving targets. We if you want a certain version of of a website, like, how do you actually do that? I prefer

1038
01:08:15.430 --> 01:08:22.170
well, it depends on the app, really. But if there's some release that has a hash, I can verify that, you know, and we're all like,

1039
01:08:23.725 --> 01:08:29.105
maybe I don't wanna wait for some reason, but on a on a website, it's like you you know, most

1040
01:08:29.645 --> 01:08:35.344
developers are just pushing out updates all the time, so you don't really know where you are. Like, what are you around?

1041
01:08:38.010 --> 01:08:39.949
But mostly, I would say is is a discovery,

1042
01:08:40.489 --> 01:08:40.989
and

1043
01:08:42.010 --> 01:08:49.469
because for features, I think most apps with the tools that are available for developers, even on mobile are just are just fine.

1044
01:08:50.045 --> 01:08:53.425
Yeah. But it's it's just that Apple and Google don't wanna make it easier.

1045
01:08:55.565 --> 01:08:56.385
Yeah. I mean,

1046
01:08:57.165 --> 01:09:00.945
Yeah. I think discovery is probably the main thing, and then

1047
01:09:01.325 --> 01:09:04.385
there's definitely additional friction. That's probably number 2.

1048
01:09:05.570 --> 01:09:09.590
And then if you're actually an educated user, there is a security concern.

1049
01:09:10.449 --> 01:09:11.329
But that's probably

1050
01:09:11.809 --> 01:09:21.255
Yeah. Because from the developer point of view, PWAs are amazing in that you can just constantly ship updates. Like, I talked to the mute when the muni guys were still working on Bitcoin,

1051
01:09:22.755 --> 01:09:25.574
that was one of the things they loved. You didn't have to wait for

1052
01:09:26.275 --> 01:09:27.895
basically App Store,

1053
01:09:28.355 --> 01:09:38.449
permission to ship updates. So you can just, like, constantly just ship. But What does that mean for the user? The user's like, I have no idea what I'm running. Like, there's no verification going on here.

1054
01:09:39.070 --> 01:09:39.570
Yeah.

1055
01:09:40.030 --> 01:09:41.330
Yeah. So that's but

1056
01:09:43.070 --> 01:09:45.250
let's say that it's it's good to have the

1057
01:09:45.655 --> 01:09:55.195
the option, the ability to do that and be clear about, like, what you're pushing out. So that's that's why on Zap, if you wished, you could you could push updates every single minute.

1058
01:09:55.735 --> 01:09:59.275
And Right. It's it's a sign it's a sign not event.

1059
01:09:59.750 --> 01:10:04.730
It just goes as fast as any other note. Right? So you should yeah.

1060
01:10:05.989 --> 01:10:18.765
Maybe you don't see it immediately right now because of some technical limitations on the app, but really that the principle is that you push out the app, you know, as many as many versions as you want. But then it's up to you, the developer, to

1061
01:10:20.505 --> 01:10:22.045
to analyze the trade off

1062
01:10:22.665 --> 01:10:29.739
whether, you know, you wanna confuse users by by shipping too much, but you should be able to do it. And I was going to mention related to security,

1063
01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:32.540
because you you kinda hinted at it. The

1064
01:10:33.640 --> 01:10:35.420
you mentioned reproducible builds?

1065
01:10:35.800 --> 01:10:36.300
Yes.

1066
01:10:36.920 --> 01:10:41.900
So that's one of the things that that are pretty cool that I wanna integrate at some point. It's like DBMs

1067
01:10:42.200 --> 01:10:42.700
that,

1068
01:10:43.824 --> 01:10:44.965
basic view analysis

1069
01:10:45.585 --> 01:10:47.364
on different things, but you could have

1070
01:10:48.945 --> 01:10:50.165
DBMs that

1071
01:10:50.945 --> 01:10:53.605
check for malware, that check for privacy,

1072
01:10:54.545 --> 01:10:55.045
issues.

1073
01:10:55.505 --> 01:10:56.244
And also,

1074
01:10:56.945 --> 01:10:58.480
I was I was talking

1075
01:10:58.940 --> 01:11:01.680
to, yeah, to people who in the space are doing, like,

1076
01:11:02.060 --> 01:11:03.520
verifications, like running,

1077
01:11:04.860 --> 01:11:15.414
or building stuff from source and getting to, you know, to do the reproducible bills. But a lot of projects don't support reproducible bills, but it would be amazing to have a flag as, hey. Actually, all these vendors

1078
01:11:16.195 --> 01:11:20.695
vouch for this hash. Right? So now we're like extra sure,

1079
01:11:22.355 --> 01:11:23.335
which is

1080
01:11:24.114 --> 01:11:25.655
totally impractical to do.

1081
01:11:26.755 --> 01:11:28.375
No. Yeah. That's a great idea,

1082
01:11:28.980 --> 01:11:32.840
for for reproducible software to just have and then you could just

1083
01:11:33.140 --> 01:11:35.700
use the master web of trust to be like

1084
01:11:36.900 --> 01:11:40.040
all these different sources say that this is the same

1085
01:11:40.580 --> 01:11:41.400
same binary.

1086
01:11:41.915 --> 01:11:46.255
Yeah. Exactly. If you have this sign the results. So you actually have multiple signatures.

1087
01:11:46.555 --> 01:11:50.255
Right. Because you you you might also have vendors that are

1088
01:11:51.114 --> 01:11:51.614
scammers.

1089
01:11:51.995 --> 01:11:56.815
But if you if your web of trust is not pointing to them, well, then they're just not an authority.

1090
01:11:58.410 --> 01:12:00.190
That's cool. I like that idea.

1091
01:12:00.730 --> 01:12:02.750
So we have that idea. We have Zaps.

1092
01:12:03.530 --> 01:12:05.790
And by the way, like, there needs to be

1093
01:12:07.690 --> 01:12:12.670
I think it can't be purely value for value. Like, there needs to be, like, Paywall premium stuff.

1094
01:12:13.135 --> 01:12:18.114
Mhmm. I mean, a lot of this stuff, like, app developers can just put in their app. Right? I mean,

1095
01:12:18.574 --> 01:12:20.335
if Epic packages Fortnite

1096
01:12:20.975 --> 01:12:24.355
they already provide an APK. It's an unsigned APK.

1097
01:12:24.895 --> 01:12:26.514
But if Epic packages

1098
01:12:27.940 --> 01:12:28.659
in in,

1099
01:12:28.980 --> 01:12:31.079
Fortnite and puts on Zapstore,

1100
01:12:31.460 --> 01:12:36.440
it's actually a free download for Fortnite. And then after once you open the app, you're paying them.

1101
01:12:37.619 --> 01:12:41.619
So that kinda takes that pressure off of you in that situation. They can just

1102
01:12:43.605 --> 01:12:45.864
but it'd be cool if I could donate in the app,

1103
01:12:46.325 --> 01:12:48.585
like, in the app store straight to people.

1104
01:12:49.125 --> 01:12:52.105
It also depends on how how this progresses

1105
01:12:53.285 --> 01:12:56.505
because I have ideas on how how to grow this

1106
01:12:57.010 --> 01:12:57.510
product.

1107
01:12:59.330 --> 01:13:07.350
If you make developers' lives easier because you're you you mentioned Fortnite, but maybe small devs don't have the bandwidth to implement

1108
01:13:07.730 --> 01:13:09.170
all that or maybe they do because,

1109
01:13:11.535 --> 01:13:15.395
it might be an option for force us to to handle the payments and

1110
01:13:16.655 --> 01:13:21.155
and offer that service to to the devs. Right? That that that would be

1111
01:13:21.615 --> 01:13:24.275
that would be a possibility. I'm just I'm just thinking

1112
01:13:24.815 --> 01:13:25.875
that's one of the

1113
01:13:27.010 --> 01:13:30.230
aspects I need to, you know, think more about, like,

1114
01:13:30.850 --> 01:13:35.190
how to how to sustain this, you know, in time or what are the

1115
01:13:35.650 --> 01:13:37.190
potential ways of

1116
01:13:37.650 --> 01:13:41.670
of getting revenue for Zap store, but without being I kinda made this

1117
01:13:42.235 --> 01:13:49.775
this voucher, this promise. It's mostly for myself, but it's like, the Cypherpunk use case will always be there, like, no matter what.

1118
01:13:50.315 --> 01:13:51.535
Even though I think

1119
01:13:53.675 --> 01:14:00.880
the the product should I would love to optimize UX, you know, to make this easy as possible, like, for my my grandma to,

1120
01:14:01.900 --> 01:14:03.200
to be able to verify

1121
01:14:03.740 --> 01:14:06.160
apps. Right? That would be that would be amazing.

1122
01:14:07.340 --> 01:14:09.680
But still, like, you you can design something

1123
01:14:10.460 --> 01:14:10.960
that

1124
01:14:11.815 --> 01:14:19.114
does not necessarily affect, you know, the fact that it's super easy to use does not necessarily mean that it's it's it's bad for privacy

1125
01:14:19.655 --> 01:14:27.010
or that it's it's bad for Freedom Tech. Yeah. Ethical monetization. I mean, this is something that I deal with all the time at 10:31.

1126
01:14:28.350 --> 01:14:28.930
I mean,

1127
01:14:29.870 --> 01:14:31.410
putting on my business hat,

1128
01:14:32.750 --> 01:14:33.810
I think that

1129
01:14:34.670 --> 01:14:39.010
the easiest way to monetize an app store is to be a rent seeker and sit in the middle

1130
01:14:39.310 --> 01:14:44.065
and take a cut of all revenue, which is exactly the model that has been incredibly successful.

1131
01:14:45.885 --> 01:14:47.105
The second easiest

1132
01:14:48.045 --> 01:14:50.705
is, like, surveillance and ads and

1133
01:14:51.085 --> 01:14:53.825
all that stuff, which is also

1134
01:14:54.240 --> 01:14:54.980
quite evil.

1135
01:14:56.400 --> 01:15:03.220
But the 3rd, like, the ethical path here, in my mind, the first thing that comes to mind is, like, premium services to the developers.

1136
01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:07.940
So it's like opt in premium services, and it's definitely the harder path.

1137
01:15:09.784 --> 01:15:14.685
But there's something there. Like, if you're a developer and you're, you know, you have a 1000000 downloads

1138
01:15:15.145 --> 01:15:18.685
a year or 2,000,000 downloads a year, 10,000,000 downloads a year,

1139
01:15:19.065 --> 01:15:24.640
like, you'd be willing to pay something to have different types of premium services on top of that,

1140
01:15:25.340 --> 01:15:27.280
in terms of your relationship with

1141
01:15:27.900 --> 01:15:30.000
Zapstore and, like, distribution and whatnot.

1142
01:15:30.620 --> 01:15:32.640
Yeah. Even for smaller devs,

1143
01:15:33.820 --> 01:15:37.440
they actually, since they don't have much resources, maybe they wanna

1144
01:15:37.885 --> 01:15:40.705
delegate some of the stuff, even the community building as well.

1145
01:15:42.365 --> 01:15:45.025
So I think, yeah, that is is to be explored.

1146
01:15:46.045 --> 01:15:46.545
But

1147
01:15:48.125 --> 01:15:49.905
I think the fact of having

1148
01:15:51.870 --> 01:15:53.010
building on and

1149
01:15:53.870 --> 01:15:56.930
and advertising that because you can build a and just, like,

1150
01:15:57.310 --> 01:15:59.010
be parasitic or just, like,

1151
01:15:59.630 --> 01:16:04.530
take all you want from the network and not get back because you don't publish user events and all that kind of stuff.

1152
01:16:05.885 --> 01:16:07.324
But it's it's kind of,

1153
01:16:09.165 --> 01:16:16.065
fire in your ass because if you're not providing the the best service, like, you're gonna especially if it's false,

1154
01:16:17.085 --> 01:16:18.625
your app will get forged

1155
01:16:18.990 --> 01:16:24.610
and, you know, someone else will just run the project that you wanna run and then you end up.

1156
01:16:25.310 --> 01:16:26.370
So I think

1157
01:16:27.150 --> 01:16:29.570
that incentive is is is super important,

1158
01:16:30.190 --> 01:16:34.530
and that's it. You know? It is an open source app and it is built on master.

1159
01:16:36.185 --> 01:16:40.765
So the only way how to monetize this is is just being the best.

1160
01:16:41.465 --> 01:16:42.285
You don't have

1161
01:16:43.225 --> 01:16:45.005
a the ability of of

1162
01:16:45.625 --> 01:16:47.760
doing these parasitic business models.

1163
01:16:48.639 --> 01:16:50.019
Right. You don't have a moat.

1164
01:16:51.039 --> 01:16:51.539
Yeah.

1165
01:16:54.239 --> 01:16:56.099
And if, you know, if you

1166
01:16:56.639 --> 01:16:57.139
another

1167
01:16:57.519 --> 01:16:59.059
of the aspects that I was

1168
01:16:59.360 --> 01:17:00.900
writing about was was

1169
01:17:01.645 --> 01:17:02.145
reputation

1170
01:17:02.525 --> 01:17:03.985
of a dev of a dev

1171
01:17:04.445 --> 01:17:09.505
and communication and support and all all that channel because we talk about monetization, which is sending value.

1172
01:17:09.965 --> 01:17:11.345
But how about how about

1173
01:17:12.525 --> 01:17:16.385
users and and devs are absolutely disconnected in AppSource today?

1174
01:17:17.900 --> 01:17:21.119
And having, like, a channel where they can come closer together,

1175
01:17:21.500 --> 01:17:22.719
users might even

1176
01:17:23.020 --> 01:17:23.520
suggest

1177
01:17:23.900 --> 01:17:26.320
features and can put up bounties

1178
01:17:27.020 --> 01:17:31.440
and just put up certain amounts as Sats if if a certain feature gets implemented.

1179
01:17:32.494 --> 01:17:37.074
I feel that that's gonna completely change the the landscape of

1180
01:17:38.255 --> 01:17:48.860
of what an app store is is thought about, and even you could just go crazy and much further and and think like, what if instead of just going to an app store and see if something is available,

1181
01:17:49.640 --> 01:17:53.420
maybe even just suggest, I want, you know, I want this app in the world.

1182
01:17:53.800 --> 01:17:58.220
You know, here, I will put up, like, a 1,000,000 sets. I wanna I wanna see this

1183
01:17:59.095 --> 01:18:00.955
happen. And then you have

1184
01:18:02.135 --> 01:18:04.955
supply, basically, come online and check.

1185
01:18:05.415 --> 01:18:07.115
Right? You just kind of are flipping

1186
01:18:07.655 --> 01:18:08.155
the

1187
01:18:09.255 --> 01:18:11.355
the the order of things and and letting

1188
01:18:12.150 --> 01:18:14.250
vendors just come and and fulfill

1189
01:18:15.510 --> 01:18:16.330
that demand.

1190
01:18:16.950 --> 01:18:20.330
I don't know how much I agree with that as a concept, but,

1191
01:18:21.590 --> 01:18:23.210
spread your wings if it works.

1192
01:18:23.830 --> 01:18:26.330
I I think bounties in general are

1193
01:18:30.665 --> 01:18:32.744
they they result in a lot of, like,

1194
01:18:34.105 --> 01:18:35.725
hit and run jobs kinda,

1195
01:18:37.625 --> 01:18:38.844
where it's like someone.

1196
01:18:40.099 --> 01:18:50.920
First of all, if someone puts a bounty up, it doesn't actually mean that there's a a lot of real demand for something. It just means that, like, a few people think there's demand for something. So, like, what's the famous quote

1197
01:18:51.395 --> 01:18:57.735
from Henry Ford? It's like, if I ask customers what they wanted, they would have told me a faster horse, but instead, I made it an automobile.

1198
01:18:58.995 --> 01:19:10.980
So that's so that's one piece. And then the second piece is oftentimes, it results in kind of developers coming in, looking through the bounty list, doing the bare minimum to claim the bounty,

1199
01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:16.820
and then moving on to something else, right, when it's really like a 5 year, 10 year project,

1200
01:19:17.760 --> 01:19:19.725
that needs constant care and love.

1201
01:19:20.765 --> 01:19:27.745
And I this is something I've struggled with because of OpenSats. I mean, we've talked many times about releasing bounties for OpenSats,

1202
01:19:29.005 --> 01:19:32.625
and I personally just don't think it's something we should get into. Now

1203
01:19:32.925 --> 01:19:34.065
on the flip side,

1204
01:19:34.719 --> 01:19:36.500
I think it's important to realize,

1205
01:19:38.159 --> 01:19:42.820
that that both j b 55 and Cali received bounties from HRF

1206
01:19:45.520 --> 01:19:46.260
that were

1207
01:19:46.735 --> 01:19:51.635
judged like, the judge judges was the Open Sats board. So strike provided the money,

1208
01:19:52.335 --> 01:19:52.835
HRF

1209
01:19:53.535 --> 01:19:58.195
custody the money and released the bounties, and then Open Sats judge 2 was successful.

1210
01:19:59.660 --> 01:20:01.040
And you could kind of,

1211
01:20:01.660 --> 01:20:07.360
like Cashew was almost a direct result of Cali winning that bounty. So that was just like a massive success.

1212
01:20:07.820 --> 01:20:09.440
And then with j b 55,

1213
01:20:10.780 --> 01:20:13.040
it was lightning payment related.

1214
01:20:14.405 --> 01:20:22.585
It was static payment codes and it, like, kind of led the way for zaps, but not really, but a little bit. So I would put those as 2, like, major successes

1215
01:20:23.125 --> 01:20:28.745
for bounties. So I'm not, like, completely against the idea, but I think in the overwhelming majority of cases,

1216
01:20:30.870 --> 01:20:32.570
they don't result in, like, a

1217
01:20:33.430 --> 01:20:42.810
highly used end product. But I could be wrong. I mean No. No. Actually, I I do agree with what you say, and maybe boundaries was not the right word to use here

1218
01:20:43.245 --> 01:20:51.824
because Yeah. All that is true. And and I see it. It's really problematic. And who defines, you know, when a bounty should be given up? Yeah. But I guess I guess

1219
01:20:52.125 --> 01:20:53.264
it was more about

1220
01:20:54.525 --> 01:21:01.790
voting with sats for features, so there's no no, you can just upvote with Sats, for example, and that's not exactly a bounty.

1221
01:21:02.170 --> 01:21:03.470
Right. I like that idea.

1222
01:21:03.850 --> 01:21:04.510
And then

1223
01:21:04.890 --> 01:21:16.505
when I'm talking about, like, these people coming and just fulfilling the jobs, it can just be, like, whatever you do on on what are these sites like, Workana or Fiber or whatever. It's just it's just a job. It's not a bounty.

1224
01:21:16.885 --> 01:21:20.665
You can even, like, you know, if someone I charge this amount

1225
01:21:21.365 --> 01:21:21.865
or

1226
01:21:22.405 --> 01:21:23.625
you can put out,

1227
01:21:25.125 --> 01:21:32.690
a query, a request. I want this stuff, and then someone comes as well. This is the price or this is the hourly price or whatever. But the point

1228
01:21:33.310 --> 01:21:36.610
here being, like, just make it make the market more dynamic

1229
01:21:36.990 --> 01:21:38.370
than what it is right now.

1230
01:21:38.670 --> 01:21:39.730
Yeah. I've seen

1231
01:21:42.534 --> 01:21:47.034
with, like, SaaS software that I've used in the past, I've seen, like

1232
01:21:47.655 --> 01:21:49.355
like, if you're a paying user,

1233
01:21:49.815 --> 01:21:52.875
there's, like, community boards where you can, like, upvote

1234
01:21:53.494 --> 01:21:53.994
different

1235
01:21:54.450 --> 01:22:00.469
features that you wanna see, and then people, like, they they grant you like, every quarter, you have 10 votes or something.

1236
01:22:01.090 --> 01:22:07.590
And, like, you can, like, move up and down the board in terms of how many upvotes it has. Like, you throw sats behind that.

1237
01:22:08.385 --> 01:22:10.725
I think that could be quite powerful. That actually

1238
01:22:11.345 --> 01:22:15.605
makes sense to me. Like, feature like act like, working software with users

1239
01:22:16.465 --> 01:22:18.565
that are ideally already paying users,

1240
01:22:18.945 --> 01:22:24.000
and they're they they have feature requests that they want improvements, iterations, you know, things

1241
01:22:24.700 --> 01:22:26.160
to that makes sense to me.

1242
01:22:27.180 --> 01:22:28.380
Yeah. Definitely. It's it's,

1243
01:22:28.860 --> 01:22:29.600
it's just

1244
01:22:30.780 --> 01:22:36.060
speaking with with value more than just words and and seeing, hey. Actually, people are are just going

1245
01:22:37.025 --> 01:22:52.324
something I didn't wanna put much priority on. Like, it's it's it's exploring all these stats, so maybe I'm not gonna focus on that. But, again, as you say, like, sometimes the bounties are are are very narrowly defined whereas, like, this feature, but maybe you have bigger plans for your project

1246
01:22:52.830 --> 01:22:55.730
that requires some other work beforehand.

1247
01:22:56.270 --> 01:22:58.369
Anyway, it's just we'll we'll explore,

1248
01:22:59.469 --> 01:23:00.210
these things

1249
01:23:00.590 --> 01:23:04.290
with time. You know, a lot of it is is is kind of dreaming too.

1250
01:23:04.670 --> 01:23:05.170
So

1251
01:23:05.835 --> 01:23:08.075
a lot of stuff to get done in,

1252
01:23:09.035 --> 01:23:14.094
in the next in the next versions, which, you know, I I think Zacks are are coming very soon.

1253
01:23:14.955 --> 01:23:15.455
Awesome.

1254
01:23:15.995 --> 01:23:16.395
Are you

1255
01:23:17.195 --> 01:23:22.550
you're on an Open Science. You do you get an Open Science grant? Yes. I did. Awesome.

1256
01:23:25.010 --> 01:23:31.010
I as you can tell, we're a little bit overwhelmed over there. I have to ask you if you have a if you have a grant or not. What was

1257
01:23:31.490 --> 01:23:33.750
what's been your experience with that process?

1258
01:23:35.695 --> 01:23:37.475
Got it, like, a a year ago,

1259
01:23:38.735 --> 01:23:43.555
and, I was I was for SCC zero one in Madera with Right.

1260
01:23:44.495 --> 01:23:46.435
And that was a little bit like

1261
01:23:48.060 --> 01:23:53.840
where where Zaps are really started because I would I would I just arrived there fresh with the idea and started,

1262
01:23:54.620 --> 01:24:00.480
you know, talking talking to Gigi, talking to Karma, and talking to, like, a bunch of the guys that were there.

1263
01:24:01.065 --> 01:24:01.565
So,

1264
01:24:02.265 --> 01:24:05.725
it was it was just great coincidence, you know, to, like,

1265
01:24:06.585 --> 01:24:10.045
have had that, you know, not straight come to my life and

1266
01:24:10.985 --> 01:24:13.965
the frustration to actually solve the problem and also

1267
01:24:14.425 --> 01:24:15.645
the grant and

1268
01:24:16.260 --> 01:24:19.720
Madeira, everything together was just kind of crazy. So

1269
01:24:20.260 --> 01:24:21.240
I'm really grateful,

1270
01:24:21.780 --> 01:24:22.680
for all that.

1271
01:24:23.140 --> 01:24:25.960
But I should say, I I I really appreciate

1272
01:24:26.660 --> 01:24:30.360
all you're doing with open sets. I think you get a lot of hate for,

1273
01:24:31.905 --> 01:24:33.125
like, thank us work.

1274
01:24:33.665 --> 01:24:59.100
If people wanna see this kind of stuff and don't like it, they just go free and set up their own fun. Like, I just I just found all the criticism kinda crazy, but I will say that, ideally, my my my my dream is just get out of it. You know? I wanna get out of it. I I reapplied to it because it's kinda early days, but, you know, the best way for a project is try to make sure that the market is actually validating what you're building.

1275
01:24:59.545 --> 01:25:11.005
And a way of doing that is is just try to, you know, see how many people are are actually paying for for your product. But, again, it's it's early for Nasr. So, I mean, it's difficult

1276
01:25:12.184 --> 01:25:16.290
it's a difficult line to draw there. Yeah. I mean, so 2 things. First of all,

1277
01:25:18.910 --> 01:25:22.290
what he's referring to is Sovereign Engineering, which is like this

1278
01:25:23.390 --> 01:25:26.290
really impressive, almost incubator like program,

1279
01:25:26.670 --> 01:25:28.690
that Gigi and Pablo run

1280
01:25:29.685 --> 01:25:30.905
in in Madera.

1281
01:25:32.005 --> 01:25:40.665
That's not like a formal incubator that you'd be used to with, like, an incubator with, like, VC funds and stuff. It's just like a bunch of Freedom Tech developers that all

1282
01:25:41.125 --> 01:25:43.465
meet for a couple months and just hack,

1283
01:25:43.780 --> 01:25:44.840
They in Madera.

1284
01:25:45.540 --> 01:25:46.040
Matt.

1285
01:25:46.420 --> 01:25:46.920
What?

1286
01:25:47.220 --> 01:25:48.360
They walk and talk.

1287
01:25:48.980 --> 01:25:50.040
Walk and talk.

1288
01:25:50.580 --> 01:25:51.080
Yeah.

1289
01:25:51.620 --> 01:25:58.520
It's impressive. Like, the caliber of projects and developers that come out of there, I mean, I don't think it can really be overstated.

1290
01:25:58.895 --> 01:26:01.715
It's really cool what they're what they're doing over there.

1291
01:26:03.055 --> 01:26:07.555
I'm I'm really impressed. I still haven't made it over to Madera myself. I need to make it over.

1292
01:26:07.935 --> 01:26:09.395
But then the second piece,

1293
01:26:10.015 --> 01:26:10.515
was,

1294
01:26:13.150 --> 01:26:16.610
I mean, that's my dream. My dream is that Open Sats is

1295
01:26:16.910 --> 01:26:18.370
the bootstrap mechanism.

1296
01:26:19.070 --> 01:26:23.650
Right? Like, what I wanna see is I wanna see sustainable FreedomTech software.

1297
01:26:23.995 --> 01:26:27.375
So sustainable open source software that's monetized with Bitcoin

1298
01:26:28.075 --> 01:26:29.055
is I think

1299
01:26:29.915 --> 01:26:36.175
it it's possible for the first time ever. Like, this is relatively new. Like, if you were an open source developer,

1300
01:26:36.670 --> 01:26:47.570
at the very least, if you were gonna try and create sustainable software with an ethical business model, you had to integrate into the traditional financial system and accept credit cards and all this other nonsense.

1301
01:26:48.030 --> 01:26:49.090
And it automatically

1302
01:26:50.315 --> 01:26:54.415
added permission to it, and it automatically made everything much more difficult.

1303
01:26:54.715 --> 01:26:56.655
But now that we have permissionless money,

1304
01:26:57.675 --> 01:27:00.655
and now that we have permissionless communication with Nostr,

1305
01:27:01.115 --> 01:27:10.240
you combine the three things together, open source software with Nostr and Bitcoin, and you have this ability to have sustainable business models that are ethical that we've never seen before. And, hopefully,

1306
01:27:10.780 --> 01:27:19.760
we see a bunch of projects come out of Open Sats where they got bootstrapped for a year or 2 years or 3 years, and then they become sustainable and actually have a revenue

1307
01:27:20.135 --> 01:27:22.395
and, like, generation and actually bring in

1308
01:27:22.695 --> 01:27:30.315
bring in SaaS flow and and and can be independent. That's the dream. That would be ideal. And they contribute back to open SaaS. Exactly.

1309
01:27:31.415 --> 01:27:32.555
It's a beautiful flywheel.

1310
01:27:33.255 --> 01:27:33.755
Yeah.

1311
01:27:34.520 --> 01:27:36.620
Let's see what we what we can do, but

1312
01:27:37.560 --> 01:27:40.540
a lot of work to be done. It's kinda kinda crazy.

1313
01:27:41.560 --> 01:27:45.340
Yeah. Well I was planning to end the year with

1314
01:27:45.960 --> 01:27:48.540
way more features and things, but, you know,

1315
01:27:52.455 --> 01:27:53.355
just doing what,

1316
01:27:53.815 --> 01:27:54.955
you know, what I can.

1317
01:27:56.215 --> 01:27:59.275
But, yeah, Zaps Zaps next. And, hopefully,

1318
01:28:00.215 --> 01:28:01.595
I think I the iOS

1319
01:28:04.130 --> 01:28:07.590
getting getting into iOS and so on will will take a bit longer.

1320
01:28:07.969 --> 01:28:13.510
Maybe, like, with Yeah. I mean, screw iOS for now. I mean, Mac Mac and Linux,

1321
01:28:13.889 --> 01:28:15.090
like, desktop would be

1322
01:28:15.835 --> 01:28:16.335
Yeah.

1323
01:28:16.954 --> 01:28:17.454
Awesome

1324
01:28:17.915 --> 01:28:24.415
and and more doable. Able to to move to these operating systems, right, if, like, if they're feeling too oppressed in

1325
01:28:24.795 --> 01:28:26.474
Right. In Apple jail. So

1326
01:28:28.449 --> 01:28:28.949
I,

1327
01:28:29.809 --> 01:28:40.710
it'd be huge to have it on desktop, especially with, like, the Bitcoiner hat on. Like, it'd be great to and and the CLI doesn't count. Like, otherwise, we might as well just be verifying PGP,

1328
01:28:41.570 --> 01:28:42.070
signatures.

1329
01:28:42.935 --> 01:28:44.395
Like, a nice pretty GUI

1330
01:28:44.855 --> 01:28:45.675
for installing

1331
01:28:46.375 --> 01:28:48.715
Bitcoin app specifically would be huge.

1332
01:28:49.895 --> 01:28:54.715
Yeah. For sure. I know that we'll have more much more usage, but maybe not for you, but for a lot of people,

1333
01:28:55.300 --> 01:29:00.280
just having having that on on the CLI as well, it it's massive because

1334
01:29:01.620 --> 01:29:02.840
it's just way

1335
01:29:03.219 --> 01:29:05.000
easier than PGP anyway.

1336
01:29:05.620 --> 01:29:12.094
And you can on the command line, you can see your web of trust as well. So, like, why why not have

1337
01:29:13.435 --> 01:29:17.534
Fair enough. Yeah. I I get I I appreciate that. So

1338
01:29:18.795 --> 01:29:21.295
as I mentioned, Sparrow, you know, like,

1339
01:29:22.489 --> 01:29:24.750
that that will be one of my dreams come true.

1340
01:29:25.449 --> 01:29:28.190
The day where I can I can see

1341
01:29:28.890 --> 01:29:32.750
a Craig Raw signed release and install it on Tap Store,

1342
01:29:33.370 --> 01:29:40.585
you know, on my desktop? That that that I think would be massive. Well, I mean, to people who say that podcasts are useless,

1343
01:29:42.005 --> 01:29:44.905
I actually I convinced Craig on a podcast

1344
01:29:46.165 --> 01:29:47.224
to add his

1345
01:29:47.525 --> 01:29:48.505
signature verification

1346
01:29:48.885 --> 01:29:56.500
GUI. Have you used the signature verification verification GUI that he has in Sparrow now? I haven't, but I know it exists. Yeah. So, like, you can

1347
01:29:57.360 --> 01:30:05.860
once you have a trusted version of Sparrow installed, right, so, obviously, you need to do PGP verification on the first install, which you need to do for Zapstore as well.

1348
01:30:06.975 --> 01:30:07.875
After that,

1349
01:30:08.655 --> 01:30:12.035
if you install if if you download any updates to Sparrow

1350
01:30:12.735 --> 01:30:17.395
or, like, 9 different project Bitcoin projects that he has hard coded

1351
01:30:17.695 --> 01:30:20.115
the PGP keys into Sparrow for,

1352
01:30:20.460 --> 01:30:22.400
You can just drag and drop

1353
01:30:23.100 --> 01:30:27.120
it into Sparrow, and it will do the PGP verification for you.

1354
01:30:27.420 --> 01:30:27.920
Mhmm.

1355
01:30:28.940 --> 01:30:38.455
And he he kind of rejected the idea at first because it was wasn't, like, pure enough from a security standpoint, which I respect. Like, Craig is a very pure pure man.

1356
01:30:39.315 --> 01:30:47.895
But he finally he finally did it, and he implemented it in, like, a super smooth way. So you can actually, like, ins you can download a new Bitcoin Core

1357
01:30:48.780 --> 01:30:49.280
binary,

1358
01:30:49.660 --> 01:30:55.760
and you can just drag that into Sparrow's GUI, and it'll just automatically verify it for you, which is pretty beautiful.

1359
01:30:56.860 --> 01:30:58.780
No. That's that's amazing. It's,

1360
01:30:59.740 --> 01:31:00.940
it's it's great to have a

1361
01:31:01.980 --> 01:31:04.240
I I'm but my point is is just, like,

1362
01:31:04.905 --> 01:31:07.324
just years of being battered down by

1363
01:31:07.625 --> 01:31:16.204
anytime you tell someone to go into fucking command line, they just their eyes glaze over. You know? There's there's some of us. Right? The ride or dies will do it. But,

1364
01:31:17.545 --> 01:31:19.085
okay. Awesome. I,

1365
01:31:20.580 --> 01:31:24.340
friend, this has been great. This has been a great chat. I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

1366
01:31:25.220 --> 01:31:25.960
I I

1367
01:31:26.740 --> 01:31:28.120
I really do think

1368
01:31:30.740 --> 01:31:33.960
that ZapStore can be one of the killer apps for Nostr.

1369
01:31:35.675 --> 01:31:37.195
I think there's a lot of people

1370
01:31:37.835 --> 01:31:40.175
right now, we're at the the point in Nasr

1371
01:31:41.115 --> 01:31:42.815
where we're hearing from Bitcoiners

1372
01:31:43.515 --> 01:31:47.610
the things we heard from Bitcoin deniers for a long time, which is

1373
01:31:48.730 --> 01:31:51.550
I don't I don't like Bitcoin, but I like blockchain.

1374
01:31:52.409 --> 01:31:54.989
It to me is like I when people say,

1375
01:31:56.489 --> 01:31:59.550
I like Nostr, but I don't like the social media aspects

1376
01:32:01.305 --> 01:32:11.485
because I think you need the shitposting social media to bootstrap everything else, and Zapstore is one of those things. Right? Zapstore is one of those things that there is thousands of Bitcoiners,

1377
01:32:12.900 --> 01:32:15.960
hopefully, 100 of thousands at least of Bitcoiners

1378
01:32:16.580 --> 01:32:19.080
that are out there that are like, we need an easy

1379
01:32:19.699 --> 01:32:20.199
permissionless,

1380
01:32:21.699 --> 01:32:22.360
you know,

1381
01:32:24.585 --> 01:32:27.325
app store that is actually, like, verifying releases,

1382
01:32:28.105 --> 01:32:37.965
in in a in a open way. And I think for a lot of them, Zapstore is the unlock. When I mentioned Zapstore, like, they they realized they're like, oh, okay. There's actually something here.

1383
01:32:38.280 --> 01:32:40.220
Maybe I should pay attention to Nostril.

1384
01:32:42.120 --> 01:32:44.940
Yeah. Fully agree. And maybe even

1385
01:32:45.640 --> 01:32:47.500
people who never heard about Nostril

1386
01:32:50.120 --> 01:32:53.775
get into whether that is Zapstore or is Primal

1387
01:32:54.315 --> 01:33:00.335
or any other project where you just get into it and all of a sudden they realize, oh, actually, I have this thing

1388
01:33:00.875 --> 01:33:03.215
that is it's an NSEC, and I can

1389
01:33:04.075 --> 01:33:07.700
move it around and just go into these other clients. Like, I think

1390
01:33:08.960 --> 01:33:18.260
for a lot of people that will that will be the the UX. You know? Not everyone will will put up with understanding relays and NSACs and signers

1391
01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:23.685
and all this all this stuff, because you just lose people. I I myself

1392
01:33:24.625 --> 01:33:25.605
in the comp in

1393
01:33:25.985 --> 01:33:26.485
the

1394
01:33:26.945 --> 01:33:31.525
in my opinion, bad awful conference in Buenos Aires that you were at as well. Like,

1395
01:33:32.385 --> 01:33:33.905
I was I was,

1396
01:33:34.625 --> 01:33:35.125
actively

1397
01:33:37.290 --> 01:33:38.190
you know, in the booth

1398
01:33:39.370 --> 01:33:41.390
just helping onboard people.

1399
01:33:41.770 --> 01:33:42.270
And

1400
01:33:42.650 --> 01:33:48.030
because other other people had already told them which clients they could have, they kinda chose. A lot of them were

1401
01:33:48.570 --> 01:33:51.790
on demos, but this is not pointed to a particular,

1402
01:33:52.330 --> 01:33:52.830
app.

1403
01:33:53.165 --> 01:33:57.265
Could be demos, amethyst, or primal or whatever, but, like, all of them

1404
01:33:57.965 --> 01:34:03.745
had a lot of problems and onboarding was terrible. I had to, like, kind of, like, made up excuses,

1405
01:34:04.125 --> 01:34:22.150
you know, on there while while people were asking questions like, why don't I see who you just follow me. Why I don't see your name or I didn't get a notification or what what is this end up thing? Like, just too many questions and I was happy that these people were eager to try and ask her because if if you someone is, like,

1406
01:34:22.555 --> 01:34:31.135
with not much energy to do it, like, you just completely lose them. So Yeah. I could talk a lot about onboarding, which I I feel is super important. And, obviously,

1407
01:34:32.395 --> 01:34:41.670
Zastor, at some point, will have some kind of onboarding. A Let's talk about onboarding. I mean, I have some time still. You wanna talk about onboarding? I mean, onboarding's horrible right now.

1408
01:34:42.210 --> 01:34:48.630
Let's talk about onboarding. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. What's your opinion on on the current state, and how how can we improve?

1409
01:34:51.035 --> 01:34:51.535
Well,

1410
01:34:51.995 --> 01:34:54.575
I posted something about on ramps versus

1411
01:34:54.955 --> 01:34:58.735
on the walls or something like that because I feel like some for some people,

1412
01:34:59.195 --> 01:35:01.050
this is not a ramp from where they're at.

1413
01:35:01.610 --> 01:35:13.949
It's just a fucking wall. You know? Right. It's like, oh, this is too difficult. I'll I'll I'll just you know? Oh, maybe next time. Right? So you just lose them. I think this has been the this experience is shared. I I heard

1414
01:35:17.145 --> 01:35:18.764
other devs talking about this

1415
01:35:20.664 --> 01:35:31.244
that the experience when they were actually I think, even Will from demos was was talking about, like, they they try to onboard someone and it's like, oh, actually, this is kind of painful. You know? There's, like, too many

1416
01:35:32.270 --> 01:35:37.170
hiccups in the world. Like, it should be, like, way smoother. And the way I'm thinking about it is, like,

1417
01:35:38.190 --> 01:35:43.170
well, there is some trust involved. Maybe we should not try to do everything permissionless

1418
01:35:44.030 --> 01:35:46.690
and self sovereign, like, from, like, minute 10,

1419
01:35:47.525 --> 01:35:48.905
but just gradually

1420
01:35:49.445 --> 01:35:49.945
start,

1421
01:35:51.525 --> 01:36:00.745
you know, showing people the way. So that's why I also think that it could be like you could think about, like, a Trojan horse. Maybe this this is just the way the word I use, but

1422
01:36:01.620 --> 01:36:18.775
maybe they should know about relays and their end sec a bit later on the journey, like, not in the first minute. You know? And this is not trying to rob them. I think a lot of people is like, oh, no. This is like slave tech if you do that. No. Right. Because people you need to meet them where they're at. So whether that is

1423
01:36:19.475 --> 01:36:20.135
a custodial

1424
01:36:21.395 --> 01:36:27.175
solution, it's of some of some sort, but it all it will all depend. Like, if if you are,

1425
01:36:27.635 --> 01:36:28.135
not

1426
01:36:28.470 --> 01:36:30.489
malicious, then you will eventually

1427
01:36:30.950 --> 01:36:35.130
let the user, you know, gather NSEC. Maybe they can change their NSEC because

1428
01:36:35.670 --> 01:36:53.905
there were if they use the network for a month, you know, now they, you know, they kinda get the hang of it. Maybe you can say, actually, you could do you wanna bootstrap maybe to get a new a fresh new NSEC and do it, like, in a soft song way, or you wanna keep you I don't know. I don't have the answers to all that, but I feel like just

1429
01:36:54.685 --> 01:36:57.105
doing everything, like, as I said, like,

1430
01:36:57.460 --> 01:36:59.079
presenting all these new concepts,

1431
01:36:59.540 --> 01:37:04.599
it it's it's not gonna work. And if you lose people, you probably lose them for a long time.

1432
01:37:05.780 --> 01:37:10.679
Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting dynamic. Right? And, you know, I came from the Bitcoin side first,

1433
01:37:11.059 --> 01:37:12.360
so a lot of my,

1434
01:37:13.744 --> 01:37:14.244
perspectives

1435
01:37:14.625 --> 01:37:15.125
are

1436
01:37:15.505 --> 01:37:18.085
influenced by the Bitcoin experience.

1437
01:37:18.705 --> 01:37:21.525
And it it's very similar in Bitcoin land,

1438
01:37:22.385 --> 01:37:22.885
where

1439
01:37:23.185 --> 01:37:24.244
on one side,

1440
01:37:24.625 --> 01:37:26.405
there's a bunch of people that realize

1441
01:37:27.349 --> 01:37:28.329
that, okay.

1442
01:37:28.949 --> 01:37:32.969
Some trade offs need to be made in order to onboard people more easily.

1443
01:37:34.070 --> 01:37:41.385
And then there's, you know, this there's a there's a loud group of people that are also that they get they get really mad when those trade offs are made.

1444
01:37:42.585 --> 01:37:46.364
So you're kinda like damned if you do, damned if you don't. Mhmm. And

1445
01:37:47.385 --> 01:37:54.764
you kind of touched on that a little bit. Right? Like, oh, this is evil slave tech. And, I mean, a perfect example of that in the Nostra ecosystem,

1446
01:37:55.240 --> 01:38:00.380
I think, is Primal. I think Primal is making certain trade offs to try and improve the onboarding experience.

1447
01:38:00.760 --> 01:38:03.260
Still not a great onboarding experience. Right?

1448
01:38:04.440 --> 01:38:04.940
But,

1449
01:38:05.880 --> 01:38:06.860
trying to make

1450
01:38:07.585 --> 01:38:12.325
certain trade offs to make that onboarding experience much much smoother. Right?

1451
01:38:12.705 --> 01:38:18.085
Don't show someone an NSEC right away. Like, still keep it locally and, you know,

1452
01:38:18.385 --> 01:38:28.510
hold it locally. Don't keep it in a custodial fashion. Don't take access of of the the person's end sync. Let them export it when they're ready, but don't show it to them right away. The caching server.

1453
01:38:29.210 --> 01:38:34.350
Right? This idea that there's a server sitting in between you and Relays in terms of reading content,

1454
01:38:34.890 --> 01:38:35.710
very controversial,

1455
01:38:38.225 --> 01:38:39.125
But it does

1456
01:38:40.865 --> 01:38:53.220
make it less important which relays you have chosen in the beginning, and it also ends up in a result where the first time you load it, you're not gonna get, like, dick pics or other things that you might not be expecting, right, because there is,

1457
01:38:54.400 --> 01:39:05.435
a not safe for work filter that is default on that you can turn off. Right? The fact that it's default on instead of default off that you could opt into, another controversial thing. The custodial wallet that's powered by

1458
01:39:07.175 --> 01:39:08.475
Strike, very controversial.

1459
01:39:09.255 --> 01:39:11.675
You know, it's it's got it's got KYC

1460
01:39:12.215 --> 01:39:17.250
built into it where you have to put your name and your email and other information there.

1461
01:39:17.810 --> 01:39:24.470
But it makes zaps very straightforward in the beginning before they can figure out how to use a lightning rod. They might not even know what SATs are in the beginning.

1462
01:39:25.490 --> 01:39:40.875
And I think what's important here is that people should be trying all different things. Right? Like, one one of our superpowers here is that we can have many dep different developer options many different options provided by developers because developers can provide all these different options without permission

1463
01:39:41.815 --> 01:39:43.514
and see what works and but

1464
01:39:43.815 --> 01:39:45.275
there should be red lines,

1465
01:39:45.710 --> 01:39:50.210
and and that's probably where all the arguments happen. Right? Like, for me, my red line

1466
01:39:50.830 --> 01:39:53.090
is something like what ZBD was doing,

1467
01:39:53.550 --> 01:39:56.130
which was the NSEC itself was custodial.

1468
01:39:56.510 --> 01:40:00.290
Right? It was like they couldn't even the users couldn't even export their NSEC.

1469
01:40:00.645 --> 01:40:03.785
I think they might have changed it, but for a while, that was the case,

1470
01:40:04.965 --> 01:40:06.185
which seems incredibly,

1471
01:40:06.565 --> 01:40:14.025
incredibly predatory. But that's why we all always get into arguments because everyone has a different red line. Right? For some people, the caching server on

1472
01:40:15.150 --> 01:40:25.170
on on primal might be a red line or the the wallet could be a red line. But, like, also, like, you go on the opposite side and you're like, okay. Well, if there's not a Lightning wallet built into a client,

1473
01:40:25.790 --> 01:40:31.915
like, most people aren't gonna zap and most people aren't gonna receive zaps. They're never even gonna taste it. They're not even gonna know what they're missing.

1474
01:40:32.695 --> 01:40:38.235
So it's kind of a in an open systems, it's a very messy situation. I don't know if I necessarily have the answers,

1475
01:40:38.855 --> 01:40:47.710
except that I do want developers to feel like they're in a place where where they can experiment with many different things and and see what works. The other controversial thing with primal is

1476
01:40:48.250 --> 01:40:50.510
the auto follows based on your interests,

1477
01:40:50.970 --> 01:40:52.830
which is not an ideal situation.

1478
01:40:53.530 --> 01:40:55.815
I know Dorsey specifically hates it.

1479
01:40:56.614 --> 01:41:02.795
I think he partially feels guilty that he, like, empowered this, like, blue check elite class in the early days of Twitter.

1480
01:41:04.055 --> 01:41:05.594
And, you know, there's

1481
01:41:05.975 --> 01:41:10.315
plenty of conspiracies on the primal side about doing something similar there.

1482
01:41:10.860 --> 01:41:16.400
I mean, I think probably a better situation is some kind of, like, DVM feeds, algo feeds, or something

1483
01:41:17.100 --> 01:41:28.585
that populate. But, like, I when I load up Amethyst for the first time, you're, like, onboarding someone to Amethyst for the first time, it's literally just an empty feed. You're, like, pulled to refresh, and there's nothing there because you don't follow anybody.

1484
01:41:29.045 --> 01:41:30.824
And that's that's really that's

1485
01:41:31.445 --> 01:41:35.784
that's really hard for new users. It's just like, watch them. Onboard a new user,

1486
01:41:36.780 --> 01:41:44.639
watch how they interact with the protocol, and, like, let's make it a little bit easier for them. Let's try out different things and see how how it works.

1487
01:41:45.739 --> 01:41:46.719
That's my Yeah.

1488
01:41:47.020 --> 01:41:49.760
I I appreciate what primal is trying to do.

1489
01:41:51.844 --> 01:41:55.864
I think it could be from my perspective, it could be improved in that.

1490
01:41:56.245 --> 01:42:00.824
For example, when you I believe when you're offered the the wallet,

1491
01:42:01.605 --> 01:42:04.185
it's not super evident that you could

1492
01:42:05.130 --> 01:42:05.870
skip it

1493
01:42:06.730 --> 01:42:11.710
or or just input your own nostrilater connect string or something like that.

1494
01:42:13.210 --> 01:42:15.470
I think I gave I gave, Millian,

1495
01:42:16.170 --> 01:42:16.910
the feedback.

1496
01:42:17.290 --> 01:42:20.190
Well, to go back to our previous conversation,

1497
01:42:21.915 --> 01:42:22.655
on iOS,

1498
01:42:23.755 --> 01:42:25.455
the only way to send zaps

1499
01:42:25.835 --> 01:42:27.855
is through the built in wallet.

1500
01:42:29.355 --> 01:42:34.175
And that's because he gives a portion of you can also buy Bitcoin in the wallet,

1501
01:42:34.790 --> 01:42:42.170
and he limits it to $5 at a time in terms of purchases, but you can buy Bitcoin in the wallet. And if you buy Bitcoin, he gives Apple a cut.

1502
01:42:42.710 --> 01:42:43.450
And so

1503
01:42:45.830 --> 01:42:52.435
we don't you know, we're we're not sure if that's gonna continue to work and Zaps will remain in the iOS wallet. It's kind of like

1504
01:42:54.495 --> 01:43:01.955
it's like kind of a gray zone. Right? But, like, right now, Apple's getting a cut of quote, unquote in app purchases, which is you buying Sats in the wallet.

1505
01:43:02.960 --> 01:43:04.660
So and I I believe

1506
01:43:05.120 --> 01:43:07.780
he tried to add NWC to that, and it got

1507
01:43:08.320 --> 01:43:12.660
not approved in the App Store. But on Android, you can use NWC.

1508
01:43:14.400 --> 01:43:16.695
It's probably not front and center. I think

1509
01:43:17.255 --> 01:43:21.994
probably a lot of that is, like, trying to keep the interface relatively simple similar.

1510
01:43:22.534 --> 01:43:31.594
But you can add Nasr WalletConnect to send Zaps from an external wallet. And then obviously on both, you can set any lightning wallet you want for receive.

1511
01:43:32.390 --> 01:43:35.530
Right? So that was an interesting choice that I saw

1512
01:43:36.390 --> 01:43:39.210
Marty made, Marty Maum made for Iris,

1513
01:43:39.910 --> 01:43:40.730
which was

1514
01:43:41.350 --> 01:43:45.770
every user by default gets automatically set up with an Mpub dot cash

1515
01:43:46.975 --> 01:43:57.155
custodial cashew wallet. And the beauty there is NPUB dot cash has no sign up process. Like, you just put an NPUB in front of at NPUB dot cash and that's a valid lightning

1516
01:43:57.614 --> 01:43:58.915
that's a valid lightning

1517
01:43:59.295 --> 01:43:59.795
wallet.

1518
01:44:01.810 --> 01:44:04.310
So Marty's just offloading that. Right?

1519
01:44:04.610 --> 01:44:08.310
Now Eggie, who's the maintainer of mpub.cash,

1520
01:44:08.930 --> 01:44:12.070
I've I've is a clearly to me, a good actor.

1521
01:44:13.795 --> 01:44:17.974
But, like, you do run the risk that he could just, like, rug your entire user base,

1522
01:44:18.914 --> 01:44:21.255
that you're just, like, offloading this capability.

1523
01:44:22.594 --> 01:44:25.574
And so, like, for better or for worse, like, 1,000,000 doesn't

1524
01:44:26.969 --> 01:44:30.349
1,000,000 wants to make sure that he has control of his destiny. He doesn't want

1525
01:44:31.369 --> 01:44:35.789
anyone to argue, but I think that's an interesting trade off. That, like, kinda makes sense to me.

1526
01:44:36.409 --> 01:44:41.130
But, like, the idea that a user as as I don't know how we get there. Maybe it's not

1527
01:44:41.915 --> 01:44:46.655
I just keep going all all over the place, but nutsack or whatever nutsaps with

1528
01:44:47.515 --> 01:44:49.135
that Pablo's working on,

1529
01:44:49.995 --> 01:44:53.215
in terms of keeping the Cashew wallet directly on relays

1530
01:44:53.594 --> 01:44:55.775
and, like, sharded elements on relays.

1531
01:44:58.340 --> 01:45:06.920
What I want the end result should be that a user signs up to Nasr and they can immediately receive Zaps. I think that's a key element. Like, their first post

1532
01:45:07.940 --> 01:45:13.000
without doing something like heavy friction wise can just receive Zaps seems like it's important.

1533
01:45:14.594 --> 01:45:18.454
And and from the sender side, I feel that. Like, you go to zap someone

1534
01:45:19.474 --> 01:45:43.284
and it doesn't work, and then you have to post underneath, and you're like, can you please set up a lightning wallet? Like, this is my recommendation. You can do this. And with me, it's even worse because I have to do it in all caps because I've committed. So then there's, like, a brand new user, and I'm, like, hitting them with, like, 2 paragraphs, all caps, like, go to mpub.cash, sign up here, sign up there. Like, there's a lot of friction there. There's a lot of things we can work on.

1535
01:45:45.585 --> 01:45:49.445
Definitely. But it all boils down to trust, like, and how that

1536
01:45:49.905 --> 01:45:59.300
gradient of trust, how do you wanna expose that? And be it Casio, which is fascinating. I think that that could be why because, like, you know, self custodian

1537
01:45:59.680 --> 01:46:12.755
custodial lighting channels and all that, it's it's another huge wall for for new users that aren't on premise. So it's a great solution to it. But on the on the other hand, it's like we're talking about, like, Millian in the sense

1538
01:46:13.455 --> 01:46:14.035
is acting

1539
01:46:14.575 --> 01:46:19.795
as a curator in a way like we were talking about the app stores, right? It's custodial,

1540
01:46:20.655 --> 01:46:23.955
it's KYC, but you don't get dick pics. So,

1541
01:46:24.335 --> 01:46:35.140
it might be a fantastic trade off for some people. I also wanted to say, like, not every project in Nasr, we need we need to understand that not every project in Nasr will be, like, completely interoperable.

1542
01:46:35.680 --> 01:46:39.195
You know, we'll we'll have clients, you were mentioning CBD, but,

1543
01:46:40.235 --> 01:46:41.855
if if we're gonna grow,

1544
01:46:42.315 --> 01:46:43.855
these actors will appear,

1545
01:46:44.315 --> 01:46:46.574
and it's just that the market that needs

1546
01:46:46.954 --> 01:46:49.994
to sort out, you know, as a user, you will get

1547
01:46:50.715 --> 01:46:59.750
you you might hear a bad reputation because, you know, because they're, like, more close product, but maybe for a lot of people, they don't care. So, I mean, we will see these things on us, especially

1548
01:47:00.370 --> 01:47:06.390
if decentralized. We you cannot stop any of the people come here and leech and be parasites.

1549
01:47:07.170 --> 01:47:07.670
Hopefully,

1550
01:47:08.050 --> 01:47:09.110
we will have, like,

1551
01:47:09.570 --> 01:47:10.870
so great products

1552
01:47:11.305 --> 01:47:12.605
that people will wanna

1553
01:47:13.065 --> 01:47:20.125
prefer them and choose them, and they will have, like, in general, better reputation. Right? Because I hope that we keep the the culture

1554
01:47:20.505 --> 01:47:25.645
in that even though you're not exposed to your end sec in in the very beginning,

1555
01:47:26.265 --> 01:47:29.300
you know, that is just like in Bitcoin. Right?

1556
01:47:29.679 --> 01:47:31.620
Run your own node. It's like,

1557
01:47:32.480 --> 01:47:35.300
hold your keys. Like, we keep pushing this because

1558
01:47:35.920 --> 01:47:45.935
maybe users are not are not ready in in in minute 0, but they are ready, you know, after 1, 2 months, whatever that may be. And that at that point, they should be able to take it out

1559
01:47:46.555 --> 01:47:47.295
and actually,

1560
01:47:47.675 --> 01:47:49.295
you know, check if their

1561
01:47:49.835 --> 01:47:59.860
provider, their social media service is not rubbing them. It's like, oh, shit. Where's my insight? You're not giving it to me. You know? Well, this is not, sir. I'm supposed to be

1562
01:48:00.240 --> 01:48:08.805
it's supposed to be interoperable, so I want my insight. So I hope that those actors, like, get get punished in in some way, but we're not gonna be able to stop them.

1563
01:48:09.365 --> 01:48:14.025
Yeah. I mean, I think a good example there from Bitcoin land is well, first of all,

1564
01:48:14.805 --> 01:48:18.025
before seeds existed, backups were incredibly difficult.

1565
01:48:18.485 --> 01:48:23.225
But then after seeds existed, there was all these self custody wallets that when you first launched

1566
01:48:24.110 --> 01:48:35.490
the wallet, it would make you write down your 12 or 24 words, then rewrite them into the into the app to make sure you had them or whatnot. And finally, developers started to come around and realize,

1567
01:48:35.835 --> 01:48:40.415
like, maybe that's not the first thing you should hit users with. Like, you can hit them with a modal

1568
01:48:40.795 --> 01:48:42.415
and, like, a little pop up

1569
01:48:42.795 --> 01:48:54.460
3 weeks, 4 weeks, 2 months, 3 months down the line and be like, you haven't backed up your wallet. You should back up your wallet. But, like, in the beginning, you should just greet them with send and receive. You know? Just get them in the door,

1570
01:48:54.760 --> 01:49:03.980
get them comfortable, and then when they have an actual amount that they need to back up and and figure out how things work, then you hit them with it. I think that's a really good

1571
01:49:04.614 --> 01:49:08.955
example of of it in practice, and we can have kinda similar on Nostra. Right?

1572
01:49:09.735 --> 01:49:14.635
Yeah. Def it's it's it's better to have a a, let's say, a custodial

1573
01:49:15.415 --> 01:49:17.114
Nostra or Bitcoin user

1574
01:49:17.655 --> 01:49:19.195
than no user at all.

1575
01:49:19.639 --> 01:49:32.619
So, you know, we'll do we'll do our best to to try Yeah. I mean, I would push back. That's not necessarily custodial. Like, it it's still self custody. Like, the NSEC is in your app. You just don't know it exists, and you don't know how to back it up

1576
01:49:32.955 --> 01:49:34.255
until a little bit later.

1577
01:49:34.715 --> 01:49:38.415
You know? And if your phone, like, falls in the toilet or something in the meantime,

1578
01:49:39.114 --> 01:49:44.175
you know, okay. Well, you just lost you just lost your nostril account. It's like not the end of the world.

1579
01:49:44.635 --> 01:49:45.135
Yeah.

1580
01:49:46.680 --> 01:49:56.700
Okay, Fran. Yeah. Go on. Sorry. No. I just just to add, but it it it's critical that we we put emphasis on on all this if we want not Nasr to grow.

1581
01:49:57.080 --> 01:50:02.545
Yeah. I mean, with Nasr too, like, with Bitcoin wallets, we do this thing. I see this comment from Muni,

1582
01:50:04.125 --> 01:50:27.719
about the amount you triggered on Bitcoin wallets. Like, a lot of developers do this thing. It's like once you hit a certain amount or you received a certain number of transactions, that's when we hit you with the you should back up your wallet. You haven't backed up your wallet yet. And we can easily do that with Nazdar too. It can be, you know, you've done 20 events or you've done a 100 events. You know? You've you've made 50 posts, and you've done a bunch of likes and maybe some zaps or whatever. Now

1583
01:50:28.195 --> 01:50:31.915
consider backing up your wallet. Right? Like, you can have different KPIs that trigger

1584
01:50:32.355 --> 01:50:36.054
Yeah. When even the back not backing up your wallet, but backing up your and

1585
01:50:36.435 --> 01:50:42.810
making sure it's secure. And, oh, by the way, here's, like, a little bit of a tool tip on you can install other apps, and you can

1586
01:50:43.610 --> 01:50:44.830
use this, use that.

1587
01:50:46.010 --> 01:50:54.590
Yeah. The whole discovery thing, but I hope we can use this this this cool freedom tech like Frost or something like that to to make the whole, like, custodial

1588
01:50:54.970 --> 01:50:55.470
aspect

1589
01:50:55.850 --> 01:50:56.590
even better.

1590
01:50:57.195 --> 01:51:00.335
Right. That would be fantastic. Well, like, multi sig.

1591
01:51:00.635 --> 01:51:14.039
Like, multi sig. Like, maybe you have good students that that none of them can run you. I don't know how this works exactly, but the idea that it's it's not that your provider just holds your insect, but you can somehow recover it, you know, by,

1592
01:51:15.139 --> 01:51:21.480
all these participants collaborating and giving it back to you. Yeah. I mean, you could do, like, collaborative custody, like,

1593
01:51:22.659 --> 01:51:25.320
like an Unchained or Casa for the Bitcoin metaphor.

1594
01:51:25.735 --> 01:51:26.235
Yep.

1595
01:51:27.575 --> 01:51:30.795
And you could even do a situation where it's, like, multi institutional

1596
01:51:31.175 --> 01:51:37.275
or whatever. It's like, you know, j b 50 Domus holds a key. Amethyst holds a key. Primal holds a key.

1597
01:51:38.720 --> 01:51:40.500
And, like, you need 2 of 3,

1598
01:51:41.440 --> 01:51:47.300
to to actually send a message or something like that. I don't know. There's Frost gives us a lot of options because it's

1599
01:51:48.000 --> 01:51:49.300
external of the protocol.

1600
01:51:50.240 --> 01:51:54.844
So you don't actually need any protocol changes, same with on Bitcoin, which is what makes it fascinating.

1601
01:51:55.625 --> 01:51:59.565
Fran, I've had you for for for a long time. I need you to get back and

1602
01:51:59.945 --> 01:52:03.244
work on Zapstore so you can ship some more releases.

1603
01:52:04.105 --> 01:52:04.905
Do you have any

1604
01:52:05.340 --> 01:52:08.800
Thank you for joining us. Do you have any final thoughts for the freaks before we wrap?

1605
01:52:09.900 --> 01:52:19.725
No. No. I appreciate this conversation. I need to catch up with the chat and see what people were asking or or zapping. But Oh, that actually reminds me. Now I'm gonna cut you off on your final thoughts.

1606
01:52:20.525 --> 01:52:22.385
Subprime asked way earlier,

1607
01:52:23.325 --> 01:52:24.705
in the Zap stream,

1608
01:52:25.325 --> 01:52:31.585
how can users of Zapstore verify that a downloaded APK is actually signed by a specific master key?

1609
01:52:33.990 --> 01:52:37.130
You can go to our master profile, our con 0,

1610
01:52:37.670 --> 01:52:38.170
and

1611
01:52:39.030 --> 01:52:43.930
and check that the hash matches. Like, I tried to explain it on the Zapstore,

1612
01:52:45.030 --> 01:52:45.530
profile

1613
01:52:46.635 --> 01:52:47.135
bit,

1614
01:52:47.675 --> 01:52:48.175
there's

1615
01:52:48.475 --> 01:52:59.370
every time there's a new release, there's a hash published there in in the kind of 0 in the, you know, in the profile. But that's for the that's for the actual Zapstore release. Right? Because

1616
01:53:00.490 --> 01:53:03.470
for the actual when you're downloading apps within Zapstore,

1617
01:53:03.850 --> 01:53:07.870
your client is just seamlessly doing it locally. Right? It's just checking

1618
01:53:08.250 --> 01:53:15.225
the signature locally. Is that what's happening? You yes. Absolutely. You are, in that case, trusting Zapstore to do all this work for you.

1619
01:53:15.945 --> 01:53:16.825
I think there's no

1620
01:53:18.185 --> 01:53:19.965
it is actually when it when it

1621
01:53:21.545 --> 01:53:22.045
basically,

1622
01:53:22.505 --> 01:53:26.845
it gets complicated, but, like, the the events that the dev is is signing,

1623
01:53:28.500 --> 01:53:36.040
link to the hash. Okay? So you have an event that says the hash of the binary you've already installed is this.

1624
01:53:36.500 --> 01:53:39.160
And what we're doing is we are downloading the

1625
01:53:39.935 --> 01:53:44.114
the let's say, this the APK in this case. We're calculating the hash,

1626
01:53:44.655 --> 01:53:47.475
and we are seeing if it matches with what the developer

1627
01:53:48.415 --> 01:53:49.235
Right. Said.

1628
01:53:49.695 --> 01:53:53.475
And that if if there's a hash hash mismatch, which actually has happened,

1629
01:53:53.970 --> 01:54:01.350
I think a lot of people had issues with that because, well, there's another because we also in Android, we get, APK.

1630
01:54:01.970 --> 01:54:04.870
Every every APK is also signed by a certificate.

1631
01:54:05.570 --> 01:54:11.645
So Android is, like, Android's security model, and we also check that. So if there's a mismatch beforehand,

1632
01:54:12.105 --> 01:54:13.005
we will warn

1633
01:54:13.545 --> 01:54:17.485
you that this is not updatable or it's, like, installable always, but not updatable.

1634
01:54:17.945 --> 01:54:18.445
So,

1635
01:54:19.225 --> 01:54:23.885
yeah, all of all of that complicated stuff, like, is happening within SaaS or that's

1636
01:54:24.190 --> 01:54:25.570
that's why it is a tool.

1637
01:54:26.190 --> 01:54:31.409
And at some point, like but I don't think we can minimize the trust on that one. You know? Like,

1638
01:54:33.309 --> 01:54:34.030
if there are

1639
01:54:34.670 --> 01:54:37.335
open to suggestions, but it's just kind of weird. Can you,

1640
01:54:38.135 --> 01:54:51.920
like, it'd be nice in Zapstore if I if you could link out to the actual event that was, like, the sign message of the hash if someone wanted to then go verify that the hash of the APK actually manually matched the hash in the event.

1641
01:54:52.700 --> 01:54:54.060
Is that already possible? Am I

1642
01:54:54.940 --> 01:54:55.840
I think that

1643
01:54:56.780 --> 01:55:05.280
is is it's just adding complexity for no gain because Nobody's gonna do it. If if I wanted if I'm if you're gonna open the event from the app itself,

1644
01:55:05.985 --> 01:55:10.405
you you're you're also trusting me. So why just not trust me the whole way?

1645
01:55:11.105 --> 01:55:12.804
You could go you could go to

1646
01:55:13.505 --> 01:55:15.045
to the really what's so funny.

1647
01:55:15.665 --> 01:55:18.330
No. I mean, that's a I mean, you make a good point, but it's

1648
01:55:19.130 --> 01:55:24.030
No. What I'm saying, you could go if you wanted to get to that level, just go to just hit the relay.

1649
01:55:24.410 --> 01:55:25.150
Hit relay.sapps.dev

1650
01:55:26.650 --> 01:55:27.310
and search

1651
01:55:27.690 --> 01:55:28.190
for

1652
01:55:28.570 --> 01:55:29.790
your app, and

1653
01:55:30.170 --> 01:55:33.950
you'll you'll get the events. And you Right. And all the events are on that relay.

1654
01:55:35.105 --> 01:55:36.965
You can you can verify those events.

1655
01:55:37.265 --> 01:55:40.405
But I'm happy to reconsider or just

1656
01:55:40.864 --> 01:55:44.885
get a bunch of ideas and see if if we for for for freaks that are,

1657
01:55:45.745 --> 01:55:49.970
you know, we don't don't wanna trust as much, like, if if there's, like,

1658
01:55:50.750 --> 01:55:54.690
something that makes sense that adds security and not just security theater.

1659
01:55:56.190 --> 01:56:04.775
No. Yeah. I mean, that that makes sense to me. That's, like, probably mostly security theater. Like, power users can actually go verify. And, I mean, people can build other apps

1660
01:56:05.635 --> 01:56:13.094
that are that are pulling from the same events, and you can actually have multiple apps be verifying. And I I really like the DVM reproducible builds idea.

1661
01:56:14.270 --> 01:56:18.050
That's a cool concept. Okay. So now I I interrupt you. Final thoughts.

1662
01:56:20.830 --> 01:56:21.890
Downloads app,

1663
01:56:22.750 --> 01:56:24.290
and and be patient, you know,

1664
01:56:25.870 --> 01:56:27.250
with with the features, but

1665
01:56:28.350 --> 01:56:28.930
I have

1666
01:56:31.455 --> 01:56:36.195
you have big plans for this. Let's see what, you know, what what's possible, but I'm

1667
01:56:36.815 --> 01:56:37.635
still super

1668
01:56:38.175 --> 01:56:44.195
keen on on on on exploring and going deeper on this and see what, you know, what can be built. But

1669
01:56:44.720 --> 01:56:46.880
but, hopefully, just get out of the

1670
01:56:48.320 --> 01:56:50.580
as much as I love my nostril bubble,

1671
01:56:50.880 --> 01:56:56.180
try to get out and maybe expose this to to more people outside of this world. Ideally,

1672
01:56:58.185 --> 01:57:00.264
the next huge step would be,

1673
01:57:00.585 --> 01:57:01.085
get

1674
01:57:01.545 --> 01:57:02.525
the wider,

1675
01:57:03.145 --> 01:57:03.645
FOSS

1676
01:57:04.744 --> 01:57:05.804
developer community

1677
01:57:06.585 --> 01:57:07.565
interested in this.

1678
01:57:08.025 --> 01:57:10.445
That would be that would be great. I think, hopefully,

1679
01:57:11.989 --> 01:57:18.489
without necessarily, like, showing this onto the faces, like, Nostra and Bitcoin, but one once they find it, like,

1680
01:57:19.670 --> 01:57:20.489
game changer,

1681
01:57:20.790 --> 01:57:21.449
I hope,

1682
01:57:22.230 --> 01:57:23.530
you know, then they will

1683
01:57:25.525 --> 01:57:26.025
discover

1684
01:57:29.685 --> 01:57:36.585
or or be friends with with with this tech, right, and and and hopefully adopt it for for even for other projects.

1685
01:57:36.965 --> 01:57:38.185
And, obviously,

1686
01:57:38.645 --> 01:57:41.100
the the dream here, because I've been an open source

1687
01:57:41.980 --> 01:57:43.280
dev, like, since forever,

1688
01:57:44.220 --> 01:57:48.240
I'm really grateful for all the stuff that I could build, through open source.

1689
01:57:50.140 --> 01:57:52.000
Obviously, not to mention lost in Bitcoin.

1690
01:57:52.700 --> 01:57:55.600
It's it's a way of giving back, like, the fact of enabling

1691
01:57:56.785 --> 01:57:58.885
devs to, like, just lower the friction,

1692
01:57:59.985 --> 01:58:01.125
as much as possible

1693
01:58:01.665 --> 01:58:03.045
and improve the discoverability

1694
01:58:03.345 --> 01:58:07.765
so that devs can actually make a living out of their apps. Like, that's my that's really my dream.

1695
01:58:08.145 --> 01:58:10.005
So I hope to to achieve that.

1696
01:58:11.300 --> 01:58:15.400
I love it. Well, Fran, thank you for joining us. Thank you for building Zapstore.

1697
01:58:16.340 --> 01:58:16.840
Freaks,

1698
01:58:17.220 --> 01:58:19.000
you can find Zapstore at zapstore.dev.

1699
01:58:21.700 --> 01:58:24.840
I'm gonna link to that in the show notes. I'm also gonna link to Fran's,

1700
01:58:25.620 --> 01:58:26.680
Noster account.

1701
01:58:27.255 --> 01:58:28.395
Follow him on Noster.

1702
01:58:29.735 --> 01:58:39.195
Huge shout out to the who joined us in the live chat. I mentioned earlier that Brian zapped a 100000 sets. Our second biggest zap was Mav 21,

1703
01:58:40.130 --> 01:58:42.389
who zapped 10,000 sets.

1704
01:58:42.770 --> 01:58:47.909
And then, of course, you can also support the show through podcasting 2 point o apps like fountain podcasts.

1705
01:58:49.090 --> 01:58:50.389
Our 2 low our

1706
01:58:50.690 --> 01:58:51.510
2 largest

1707
01:58:52.465 --> 01:58:52.965
boosts,

1708
01:58:53.825 --> 01:58:55.205
from podcasting 2.0

1709
01:58:55.745 --> 01:58:57.844
from last episode was Beholder

1710
01:58:58.145 --> 01:58:58.965
with 21,212

1711
01:59:00.305 --> 01:59:02.325
sats and Oscar Mayer,

1712
01:59:02.705 --> 01:59:04.225
who's, the cofounder of,

1713
01:59:05.190 --> 01:59:05.690
Fountain,

1714
01:59:06.310 --> 01:59:07.770
with 10,000 sats.

1715
01:59:09.190 --> 01:59:13.690
Briggs, we have no ads. We have no sponsors. This is a pure value for value show.

1716
01:59:14.070 --> 01:59:15.050
Think it's probably

1717
01:59:15.350 --> 01:59:16.010
the largest,

1718
01:59:17.765 --> 01:59:21.465
no ads Sats funded show that is not run by Adam Curry.

1719
01:59:22.245 --> 01:59:24.425
So thank you, Freaks, for making that possible.

1720
01:59:24.965 --> 01:59:26.025
The Sats really

1721
01:59:27.525 --> 01:59:36.630
they keep me going. They it's it's it's it's wonderful finding out that you guys find value from it, so thank you for supporting the show. And once again, Fran, thank you for joining us.

1722
01:59:37.090 --> 01:59:38.070
Thank you, Roy.

1723
01:59:39.329 --> 01:59:42.625
Keep pushing. Appreciate you. You too. Thanks.

1724
01:59:43.085 --> 01:59:44.065
Cheers. Cheers.

1725
01:59:48.685 --> 01:59:50.864
Instead of looking up to Thomas Jefferson

1726
01:59:51.165 --> 01:59:53.344
or or looking up to Nikola Tesla

1727
01:59:53.719 --> 01:59:55.900
or looking up to to Magellan.

1728
01:59:56.280 --> 01:59:59.020
I mean, kids, Magellan's a lot cooler

1729
01:59:59.400 --> 02:00:01.659
than Justin Bieber. He's circumnavigated

1730
02:00:02.600 --> 02:00:05.340
with one ship, the entire planet.

1731
02:00:06.360 --> 02:00:09.235
That's destiny. That's will. That's

1732
02:00:09.615 --> 02:00:12.435
striving. That's being a trailblazer and explorer.

1733
02:00:12.975 --> 02:00:21.990
Going into space, mathematics, quantum mechanics, the secrets of the universe. It's all there. Life is fiery with its beauty. It's incredible detail.

1734
02:00:22.370 --> 02:00:23.670
Toning into it.

1735
02:00:25.170 --> 02:00:26.630
Unlock your evil potential.

1736
02:00:27.170 --> 02:00:29.830
Definct the bubbles you wanna shatter your mind.

1737
02:00:30.210 --> 02:00:31.670
Your doorways to perception.

1738
02:00:49.780 --> 02:00:53.640
To live in this nightmare system these control freaks have created.

1739
02:00:58.020 --> 02:01:03.640
That's why I don't care about my own life. It's about what I continue to live to fight them. That's why I don't have fear.

1740
02:01:03.965 --> 02:01:08.865
I only have fear of myself and my flesh and not be up to the challenge.

1741
02:01:12.205 --> 02:01:13.985
When I ask you to look in the mirror

1742
02:01:14.365 --> 02:01:15.780
and ask yourself, what are you