Jan. 16, 2025

CD149: BITCOIN POLICY AND P2P RIGHTS WITH ZACK SHAPIRO

The player is loading ...
Citadel Dispatch
00:00
00:00
00:00

Zack Shapiro is Head of Policy at the Bitcoin Policy Institute and Executive Director of the P2P Rights Fund. We discuss the current regulatory landscape and how it may evolve under the upcoming Trump Administration.

Bitcoin Policy Institute: https://www.btcpolicy.org/
P2P Rights Fund: https://p2prights.org/

EPISODE: 149
BLOCK: 879414
PRICE: 1006 sats per dollar


support dispatch: https://citadeldispatch.com/donate
nostr live chat: https://citadeldispatch.com/stream
odell nostr account: https://primal.net/odell
dispatch nostr account: https://primal.net/citadel
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@CitadelDispatch
podcast: https://serve.podhome.fm/CitadelDispatch
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: https://citadeldispatch.com/chat
learn more about me: https://odell.xyz

(00:01) CNBC Intro

(02:49) Current Bitcoin Policy

(05:58) Bitcoin's Global Impact and Government Adoption

(11:30) Judicial Challenges and Peer-to-Peer Rights

(27:51) Trump's Executive Orders and Bitcoin

(44:16) Regulatory Concerns and Future Outlook

Chapters

00:01 - CNBC Intro

02:49 - Current Bitcoin Policy

05:58 - Bitcoin's Global Impact and Government Adoption

11:30 - Judicial Challenges and Peer-to-Peer Rights

27:51 - Trump's Executive Orders and Bitcoin

44:16 - Regulatory Concerns and Future Outlook

Transcript
WEBVTT

NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 01/16/2025 14:59:48
Duration: 3405.609
Channels: 1

1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:07.379
Going to have or whether your thinking has evolved. It almost sounded like you you wanted to going to have to separate Bitcoins from the rest of the industry.

2
00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:11.599
And I'm wondering whether you're actually warming to to the idea of of,

3
00:00:11.920 --> 00:00:13.380
of of at least Bitcoin.

4
00:00:13.795 --> 00:00:15.095
And whether yeah.

5
00:00:15.395 --> 00:00:23.415
Again, people are are tweeting you that I said you either stood in the way of an extraordinary industry or were utterly unable to prevent a a massive bubble.

6
00:00:24.515 --> 00:00:25.494
What do you think

7
00:00:25.930 --> 00:00:31.550
the future holds? Do do you have a feeling on what which it is? Do you do you think Bitcoin has

8
00:00:31.850 --> 00:00:42.595
inherent value and is a store of value, or do you feel that that when we look back on a 10, 15, 20 years from now, it's gonna be something from the 18th century with tulips.

9
00:00:45.215 --> 00:00:51.455
Joe, it's it's hard to predict. I think I really do like you because I know that you think,

10
00:00:52.335 --> 00:00:52.995
I'm gonna

11
00:00:53.420 --> 00:00:57.440
out you and think negatively on many of these odd coins. You, Joe.

12
00:00:57.740 --> 00:01:00.239
But in terms of in terms of Bitcoin,

13
00:01:00.860 --> 00:01:11.935
we at the SEC have never said it's a security. I have not. What do you think? It's You talked to MIT. I think you know. I think you gotta have some kind of feel do you read you've read the books? I Bitcoin Standard?

14
00:01:12.795 --> 00:01:15.615
Yeah. I think I think that Bitcoin

15
00:01:15.995 --> 00:01:17.615
is a highly speculative,

16
00:01:20.100 --> 00:01:20.600
volatile

17
00:01:21.300 --> 00:01:21.800
asset,

18
00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:23.240
but with 7,000,000,000

19
00:01:23.620 --> 00:01:24.920
people around the globe.

20
00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:30.520
7,000,000,000 people wanna trade it just like we do have gold for 10000

21
00:01:30.820 --> 00:01:31.320
years.

22
00:01:31.945 --> 00:01:36.765
We have Bitcoin. It might be something else in the future as well. Right. These other

23
00:01:37.145 --> 00:01:38.525
thousands of projects

24
00:01:39.225 --> 00:01:42.045
need to show their use case and

25
00:01:42.425 --> 00:01:44.765
show that they actually have fundamentals

26
00:01:45.305 --> 00:01:46.525
underlying them

27
00:01:46.979 --> 00:01:58.119
or they won't persist, Joe. Oh my god. You own Bitcoin. The public that's that's that's what the public needs to know. That's what it's I don't You love it. I've never owned You love I've never You love it. You don't like those other coins.

28
00:01:58.659 --> 00:02:06.695
I've I've never owned any of these, and I've been consistent for 7 or 8 years on this. Well, now you can't because you won't be a SEC chair.

29
00:02:49.685 --> 00:02:50.665
Happy Bitcoin

30
00:02:50.965 --> 00:02:51.465
Wednesday,

31
00:02:52.245 --> 00:02:54.745
freaks. It's your host, Odell, here

32
00:02:55.284 --> 00:02:57.784
for another Citadel Dispatch, the interactive

33
00:02:58.165 --> 00:03:02.825
live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

34
00:03:03.810 --> 00:03:04.550
I'm broadcasting

35
00:03:05.970 --> 00:03:06.470
live

36
00:03:07.090 --> 00:03:09.110
from a undisclosed location

37
00:03:09.810 --> 00:03:11.110
because we have a very

38
00:03:11.730 --> 00:03:14.150
timely topic to bring to you, freaks.

39
00:03:14.530 --> 00:03:21.745
That intro was our boy Joe Kernan, who runs the number one Bitcoin podcast in the world, Squawk Box on CNBC,

40
00:03:23.165 --> 00:03:24.385
roasting outgoing

41
00:03:24.765 --> 00:03:25.265
SEC

42
00:03:25.565 --> 00:03:27.185
chair Gary Gensler.

43
00:03:27.565 --> 00:03:30.225
Our topic today is the upcoming

44
00:03:30.820 --> 00:03:31.640
Trump administration,

45
00:03:33.140 --> 00:03:33.800
the regulatory

46
00:03:34.100 --> 00:03:34.600
outlook,

47
00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:38.680
how policy is shaping up, and what that means for Bitcoiners

48
00:03:39.140 --> 00:03:46.360
both in America and around the world. I'm joined here by a good friend and head of policy at Bitcoin Policy Institute, Zac Shapiro.

49
00:03:46.955 --> 00:03:48.254
Bitcoin Policy Institute

50
00:03:49.595 --> 00:03:51.534
is one of the leading think tanks,

51
00:03:52.715 --> 00:03:54.814
advising the upcoming Trump administration

52
00:03:55.114 --> 00:03:56.174
and other policymakers.

53
00:03:58.155 --> 00:03:58.894
They also

54
00:03:59.595 --> 00:04:01.614
have a p two p rights,

55
00:04:02.940 --> 00:04:03.260
like,

56
00:04:04.940 --> 00:04:05.440
subgroup,

57
00:04:06.540 --> 00:04:07.040
that,

58
00:04:07.420 --> 00:04:09.040
Zach Zach is,

59
00:04:09.819 --> 00:04:14.720
executive director of. So how's it going, Zach? Good to have you here. Doing well. Thanks for having me.

60
00:04:16.335 --> 00:04:20.995
This is, crazy times where I guess we're about a week away from the upcoming,

61
00:04:21.775 --> 00:04:22.275
presidency.

62
00:04:24.175 --> 00:04:25.555
We have a lot of

63
00:04:26.415 --> 00:04:29.715
there's a lot of excitement. There's a lot of excitement about

64
00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:33.680
what could be our 1st Bitcoin president, and there's a lot of concern about

65
00:04:35.419 --> 00:04:36.400
whether or not

66
00:04:37.340 --> 00:04:38.620
people that like using

67
00:04:39.100 --> 00:04:41.440
appreciate using Bitcoin as freedom money,

68
00:04:43.500 --> 00:04:45.735
appreciate using Bitcoin as freedom money,

69
00:04:46.294 --> 00:04:51.675
are concerned what it might mean for them going forward. So how how are you thinking about,

70
00:04:53.254 --> 00:04:54.314
what comes next?

71
00:04:57.735 --> 00:04:59.034
Yeah. For sure. So

72
00:04:59.580 --> 00:05:02.000
my overall reaction to the

73
00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:06.400
what we've heard from the Trump administration and from the incoming congress,

74
00:05:06.940 --> 00:05:11.520
is, in many ways, a huge sigh of relief compared to what would have been,

75
00:05:11.900 --> 00:05:13.920
if the election had gone the other way.

76
00:05:14.895 --> 00:05:19.075
I I don't see the sort of mainstream adoption of Bitcoin,

77
00:05:19.935 --> 00:05:22.755
you know, including by Wall Street, including by governments,

78
00:05:23.294 --> 00:05:29.075
as at odds with the mission of Bitcoin as as freedom money. I think these are very both important,

79
00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:31.900
you know, themes in Bitcoin. It's monetization.

80
00:05:32.760 --> 00:05:33.260
It's,

81
00:05:33.640 --> 00:05:35.660
going from being seen as a legitimate

82
00:05:36.440 --> 00:05:37.900
asset or a hobby

83
00:05:38.200 --> 00:05:42.275
or a tool for money laundering into a portfolio of financial system, you

84
00:05:42.815 --> 00:05:44.095
know, especially in the west.

85
00:05:44.415 --> 00:05:49.715
But then in other parts of the world, especially in the global south, a sort of vital means of

86
00:05:50.095 --> 00:05:51.155
resisting authoritarianism

87
00:05:51.935 --> 00:05:57.750
of, using Bitcoin as a medium exchange and as free to money in sort of every sense you could mean.

88
00:05:58.610 --> 00:06:00.950
Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot to break down here.

89
00:06:01.890 --> 00:06:02.390
I

90
00:06:03.250 --> 00:06:07.910
so you you've been active in this space for a while now. If you were

91
00:06:08.850 --> 00:06:11.030
compared to where we stand today versus,

92
00:06:11.435 --> 00:06:13.935
let's say, 6 months ago or a year ago,

93
00:06:14.875 --> 00:06:16.575
how would you compare and contrast,

94
00:06:17.595 --> 00:06:18.975
you know, current developments?

95
00:06:22.715 --> 00:06:26.015
I think it's night and day. So I I think there there are different,

96
00:06:26.610 --> 00:06:32.710
sort of buckets we can look at. So starting with the government, if you look at each of the 3 branches of the federal government,

97
00:06:33.170 --> 00:06:36.870
the biggest change we're gonna see definitely is with the executive branch.

98
00:06:37.250 --> 00:06:40.150
If you look at the way that the Biden administration,

99
00:06:40.850 --> 00:06:44.835
look at at Bitcoin and and crypto writ large, you just Bitcoin,

100
00:06:45.935 --> 00:06:49.155
multiple parts of the government seems to be all out attacking.

101
00:06:50.255 --> 00:06:52.115
If you, you know, SCC,

102
00:06:52.415 --> 00:06:53.955
the biggest news for Bitcoin

103
00:06:54.310 --> 00:07:03.610
SCC in 2024 was the approval of spot Bitcoin ETFs, which seems like it's had a pretty big impact on price and sort of on the broad perception of the company,

104
00:07:03.910 --> 00:07:05.370
from people outside the community

105
00:07:06.150 --> 00:07:07.690
and Wall Street. The,

106
00:07:08.175 --> 00:07:09.395
suit against the SEC,

107
00:07:09.855 --> 00:07:16.435
it involved Gary Gensler writing sort of the saltiest ever concurrence on the decision to grant the spot ETF.

108
00:07:17.615 --> 00:07:20.435
It you know, there's no in kind creation and redemption.

109
00:07:21.055 --> 00:07:22.675
They're a slow rolled options.

110
00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:27.880
You know, the SEC in in general, you know, and then aside from the ETF, SAB 121

111
00:07:28.660 --> 00:07:31.319
prohibited banks from holding Bitcoin as collateral.

112
00:07:32.259 --> 00:07:36.694
Totally sort of anti Bitcoin policy. If you look at the IRS,

113
00:07:36.995 --> 00:07:40.294
we just had sort of a midnight surprise from the Biden, IRS

114
00:07:40.675 --> 00:07:45.094
where they're saying that anyone who creates software that facilitates people's trading,

115
00:07:45.474 --> 00:07:57.280
including in Bitcoin, could be seen as a broker. And if they're in a position to KYC, they have to KYC to be able to report trades to the government even if you're just a front end, for example, for for a Taproot swap on the back end

116
00:07:57.820 --> 00:08:01.199
or potentially an e cash mint or, you know, any kind of noncustodial

117
00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:02.000
tool.

118
00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:05.280
If you look at the DOJ and Treasury,

119
00:08:06.325 --> 00:08:11.385
you know, the DOJ launched these actions against Tornado Cash and Samurai directly going after developers

120
00:08:11.845 --> 00:08:12.585
of noncustodial

121
00:08:13.044 --> 00:08:13.544
tools.

122
00:08:14.485 --> 00:08:18.264
The Treasury has not come out with guidance that's helpful there. The

123
00:08:18.729 --> 00:08:20.909
treasury you threw it its OFAC,

124
00:08:21.770 --> 00:08:27.069
office sanctioned the smart contracts for Turtaino Cash, which are just code that's running on the Internet.

125
00:08:27.449 --> 00:08:30.885
We were really sort of in a defensive posture when when they had the,

126
00:08:31.445 --> 00:08:33.705
infrastructure bill. They tried to sneak in

127
00:08:34.085 --> 00:08:38.505
redefinitions of brokers that would include almost everyone in in the Bitcoin industry.

128
00:08:39.045 --> 00:08:46.585
And so going from that to having a president that, you know, bought burgers over the lightning network at Pub Key, that's, you know, appointing

129
00:08:47.070 --> 00:08:55.890
not just pro Bitcoin people in terms of their stance, but people that, you know, in many cases, understand and hold Bitcoin into really key roles across the administration

130
00:08:56.270 --> 00:08:57.810
up to the cabinet level.

131
00:08:58.510 --> 00:09:04.444
That's really night and day. And, I think a lot of the change in the executive branch is something that's just going to happen naturally,

132
00:09:05.144 --> 00:09:08.045
because of the personnel shift. A lot of the key personnel,

133
00:09:08.504 --> 00:09:17.610
who oversaw Bitcoin related issues in the Biden administration were handpicked by Elizabeth Warren who, you know, really wants Bitcoin to die. That's that's one of her sort of key missions.

134
00:09:18.230 --> 00:09:20.570
And she's gonna be replaced by people who,

135
00:09:21.110 --> 00:09:23.770
got to where they got in part by being supportive.

136
00:09:25.030 --> 00:09:34.435
And, you know, I think both through executive orders coming through the White House and just through different decision making at these different executive agencies, we're gonna see, like, a huge,

137
00:09:34.915 --> 00:09:41.335
you know, if not overnight, pretty rapid difference in the way the government approaches Bitcoin from the executive branch. In the congress,

138
00:09:42.435 --> 00:09:47.630
you know, it's a little bit more of a mixed bag there. You know, we're pushing really hard to help

139
00:09:48.810 --> 00:09:49.630
people understand,

140
00:09:50.170 --> 00:09:55.070
senator Lummis' Bitcoin Act bill, which would create a strategic Bitcoin reserve and and buy a 1000000 coins.

141
00:09:56.010 --> 00:09:57.850
You know, we're gonna definitely,

142
00:09:58.410 --> 00:10:07.425
help draft language where appropriate for other legislation that we think are really important for Bitcoin related priorities, whether those are accounting, whether those are protections for developers,

143
00:10:08.444 --> 00:10:10.464
whether that's fair treatment for minors.

144
00:10:11.485 --> 00:10:14.545
You know, there's lots of opportunity there, but we are

145
00:10:14.990 --> 00:10:24.610
more competing with legislative priorities in congress from other interests in the in the crypto space. So for example, you know, the SBR bill is one of the potential,

146
00:10:25.550 --> 00:10:41.275
sort of marquee crypto related bills that could go through congress, but there's also a stable coin legislation that I think TradFi is really interested in, so they can enter the space and get the legislative clarity they need to create JPMorgan coin or BlackRock coin or whatever they're trying to do to compete with Tether.

147
00:10:41.895 --> 00:10:59.500
And then, you know, the market structure bill, which is really important to the crypto exchanges, really important to the crypto VCs to sort out which token launches constitute securities offerings, which don't, and create a safe harbor for people who, you know, wanna do VC token launches. And there's a lot of money and interest behind all of these. So

148
00:11:00.135 --> 00:11:22.260
congress, I think, is, poised to be friendlier to Bitcoin than they have in a while, but the question is, like, where do we rank in their priorities? And then the judicial branch, judges are more insulated at the federal level from politics. They have lifetime appointments, and that's where I think there's still, the most work left to do. I'm sure we'll talk more about the peer to peer rights fund, which is a nonprofit litigation fund meant specifically to get involved,

149
00:11:22.640 --> 00:11:24.340
with the federal courts where,

150
00:11:24.800 --> 00:11:38.425
you know, the rights of developers and and individuals to to transact on a peer to peer basis are in jeopardy. But I think that's where the election is gonna have the least impact, going forward. And then it's worth mentioning also, sort of traditional finance,

151
00:11:39.140 --> 00:12:08.870
looks at Bitcoin so differently, I think, right now than they did a year ago. I think the career risk around being involved in Bitcoin, around investing in Bitcoin, holding Bitcoin, recommending Bitcoin, is just in such a different place. It seems so much more legitimately than it was even 1 year ago, and a lot of that is just about the number go upside. But I think there are some positive externalities for Bitcoin as freedom money, and Bitcoin the network. I think it could bring people into the developer space. I think it could, you know, open

152
00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:12.790
people's minds to self custody as opposed to just holding ETFs

153
00:12:13.170 --> 00:12:18.069
and, you know, that shift in the Overton window coming from the private sector is a is a real ingredient

154
00:12:18.644 --> 00:12:27.545
both in its own in terms of, how people writ large think about Bitcoin in the United States abroad, but also it could have a ricochet effect on how how the government thinks about and deals with Bitcoin.

155
00:12:30.990 --> 00:12:31.490
Awesome.

156
00:12:32.910 --> 00:12:36.130
Huge shout out to the live chat. I apologize about the echo.

157
00:12:36.830 --> 00:12:38.290
I think I solved it.

158
00:12:38.910 --> 00:12:45.410
So thank you for bringing that to my attention to our attention. And huge shout out to Mab 21 who zapped 10,000 sets.

159
00:12:46.665 --> 00:12:49.245
To those watching on YouTube or Twitch,

160
00:12:49.785 --> 00:12:52.285
the Noster live chat can be found at zap.stream/odell.

161
00:12:56.905 --> 00:12:59.820
So, Zach, I mean, there's a lot there.

162
00:13:00.280 --> 00:13:03.340
So I'm trying to think where I wanna go first with this.

163
00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:06.140
Do you think there's a concern?

164
00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.780
Is there is there a real concern? I've heard a lot of people voice this.

165
00:13:12.015 --> 00:13:13.955
Is there a real concern about

166
00:13:14.415 --> 00:13:15.795
this idea that

167
00:13:16.495 --> 00:13:16.995
Bitcoin

168
00:13:18.175 --> 00:13:25.475
most Bitcoin will be used in, like, an ETF type of situation or a custodial type of situation, a custodial regulated type of situation

169
00:13:25.870 --> 00:13:32.030
while self custody will continue to be pushed down on? Like, is how do you think about,

170
00:13:34.750 --> 00:13:40.370
people's ability to freely use Bitcoin in a self custody, freedom oriented fashion going forward?

171
00:13:40.885 --> 00:13:46.105
Yeah. I would separate those two things out. I think it is true that we are likely to see

172
00:13:46.565 --> 00:13:59.900
more Bitcoin as a proportion of the network end up in custodial products. I think that is a function of people starting to understand Bitcoin the asset and wanting to hold it in what they see as less risky ways.

173
00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:05.340
You know, these are people who are not necessarily gonna understand how to self custody, feel okay self custodying.

174
00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:08.865
And, you know, the truth is I don't know how much there is

175
00:14:09.425 --> 00:14:14.485
we can do about people making that decision, and I expect that secular trend to continue to some extent.

176
00:14:14.945 --> 00:14:21.685
I don't think it necessarily, at least the way it's happening now, comes at the cost of using Bitcoin, the network, and and Bitcoin as,

177
00:14:22.385 --> 00:14:23.205
freedom money.

178
00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:43.755
I think, you know, there are a couple of ways you could take this. 1 is, alright. As Bitcoin becomes more integrated into Wall Street and then especially if we get something like a strategic Bitcoin reserve and Bitcoin becomes an important asset to governments like the United States government, how does that impact freedom money? And there's definitely some narratives out there that that could be an attack on Bitcoin,

179
00:14:44.295 --> 00:14:46.235
that this is really not in our interest,

180
00:14:46.695 --> 00:14:48.235
to support this decision making.

181
00:14:48.695 --> 00:14:54.640
I totally totally disagree with that. You know, we sort of started this chat about how different things are,

182
00:14:55.020 --> 00:14:59.839
from a year ago. I think in in most of those ways, things are are moving in a positive direction,

183
00:15:00.140 --> 00:15:08.834
for people who hold Bitcoin in the United States and people who are building Bitcoin businesses and developing Bitcoin tools. I think the risk goes down as incentives,

184
00:15:09.774 --> 00:15:10.834
are aligned.

185
00:15:11.615 --> 00:15:20.834
And I I think that it's not just true in the in the positive sense that if the United States government sees Bitcoin as an important asset, they're more likely to protect Bitcoiners and people building on Bitcoin.

186
00:15:21.214 --> 00:15:26.680
I think the converse is also true that if the United States government doesn't embrace Bitcoin,

187
00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:31.880
the game theory is that our adversaries will. I think ever since 2022,

188
00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:34.840
with the beginning of the Russia Ukraine war,

189
00:15:35.475 --> 00:15:36.535
We've seen countries

190
00:15:36.835 --> 00:15:39.175
react to the United States freezing Russia's

191
00:15:39.555 --> 00:15:40.535
treasuries reserves,

192
00:15:41.075 --> 00:15:48.214
by buying gold and selling treasuries. And I think sort of the the the game is up that, you know, US treasuries are a neutral,

193
00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:57.639
reserve asset. Right? That, you know, are are sort of like a commodity. No. They're they're printed and controlled by a country that has its own monetary policy and has its own,

194
00:15:58.100 --> 00:15:59.560
you know, sanctions policy.

195
00:16:00.100 --> 00:16:02.519
And gold does not work that way.

196
00:16:03.165 --> 00:16:06.525
Bitcoin is just better than gold if you're trying to hold a neutral reserve asset.

197
00:16:07.245 --> 00:16:09.965
There are some countries we've seen come out and and say that.

198
00:16:10.365 --> 00:16:16.140
I've heard, I think many of the same rumors that you probably have that there are other perhaps bigger countries that are

199
00:16:17.020 --> 00:16:34.975
accumulating Bitcoin, mining Bitcoin that aren't talking about it publicly. And if it's not the case now, I I'm quite confident it will be the case that the countries that are stacking Bitcoin will include our adversaries. And if those countries were to come out, if Russia or China or Iran were to come out and say, hey. We're mining Bitcoin. We're holding Bitcoin, and the United States is not.

200
00:16:35.515 --> 00:16:44.350
I think the consequences in terms of the policy response from the United States for Bitcoiners and for Bitcoin developers is likely to be very severe. And so,

201
00:16:44.730 --> 00:16:54.430
aside from aligning incentives and, you know, improving education for the United States government by creating a Bitcoin reserve, especially Bitcoin reserve in self custody in the United States,

202
00:16:55.545 --> 00:16:58.605
The, you know, the just the ability to avoid,

203
00:16:59.144 --> 00:17:08.525
this sort of geopolitical time bomb of our adversaries coming out as pro Bitcoin or holding Bitcoin and then, you know, having a negative perhaps bipartisan reaction

204
00:17:09.419 --> 00:17:15.039
is really important. And so these things are rowing in the same direction and and and not sort of at odds with one another.

205
00:17:17.179 --> 00:17:19.840
Awesome. I mean, so first of all, before we continue,

206
00:17:21.515 --> 00:17:26.095
I probably should disclose that I'm one of the founding board members of Bitcoin Policy Institute.

207
00:17:26.794 --> 00:17:28.095
There's 3 of us.

208
00:17:28.715 --> 00:17:30.895
I do not get paid for that role,

209
00:17:31.355 --> 00:17:33.595
and it's more of a support role, really.

210
00:17:34.235 --> 00:17:36.575
David Zell and Grant McCarthy are

211
00:17:36.929 --> 00:17:39.909
incredibly impressive individuals, and they run the operation.

212
00:17:42.049 --> 00:17:43.990
So where I wanna go here is

213
00:17:44.370 --> 00:17:46.470
so on that note, you did mention,

214
00:17:47.169 --> 00:17:52.149
the tornado cache and samurai cases. I'm kind of curious on your opinion here

215
00:17:52.505 --> 00:17:55.805
of where those stand or how you think about them going forward.

216
00:17:56.745 --> 00:17:57.465
Yeah. So,

217
00:17:57.945 --> 00:18:07.590
given that you mentioned BPI, let me give you a little bit of background about how sort of we think about policy issues. So BPI is not a lobbying organization. It's it's a think tank.

218
00:18:08.070 --> 00:18:10.010
We definitely have policy preferences,

219
00:18:10.549 --> 00:18:23.285
and there may be times in the future where we get more directly involved in lobbying. But our goal is to really think deeply about what should good policy around Bitcoin be in in the broadest sense possible and then to educate relevant policymakers,

220
00:18:23.985 --> 00:18:43.630
about what good policy should look like and and, you know, draft bills, draft executive orders, and get involved, where we can to help affect that policy. Our only client, our only real constituent is the Bitcoin network. Now there are many different types of people that are part of the Bitcoin network. It, you know, it could be individual Bitcoin holders. It could be node runners. It could be miners. It could be developers.

221
00:18:44.250 --> 00:18:46.350
And and so we are sort of looking out,

222
00:18:46.730 --> 00:18:57.785
you know, and and there are other important roles. Right? Developers obviously do their own thing that's incredibly important, but we think policy has a role here. And so, you know, we wanna do what is in the best interest of Bitcoin vis a vis, especially

223
00:18:58.165 --> 00:18:59.225
US federal policy.

224
00:19:00.405 --> 00:19:02.905
The peer to peer rights fund started,

225
00:19:04.165 --> 00:19:04.905
this year

226
00:19:06.570 --> 00:19:09.390
in April in reaction to 2 things,

227
00:19:09.770 --> 00:19:15.070
that happened in the span, I think, of of 1 week, that were just incredibly concerning to me.

228
00:19:15.610 --> 00:19:17.710
The first was the prosecution

229
00:19:18.090 --> 00:19:19.549
against Samurai Wallet

230
00:19:20.075 --> 00:19:24.815
that included charging the developers of Samurai Wallet with being unlicensed money transmitters,

231
00:19:25.835 --> 00:19:26.335
essentially

232
00:19:26.635 --> 00:19:32.370
for writing and supporting code that allowed people to spend their own Bitcoin in a private way,

233
00:19:32.770 --> 00:19:42.390
when, you know, in in my view as a legal matter, they were not transmitting anyone's money. People were using samurai wallet to transmit their own money, and this was something the government was either,

234
00:19:42.770 --> 00:19:45.590
you know, negligently or or intentionally conflating,

235
00:19:46.365 --> 00:19:57.585
in order to prosecute these individuals. And then that same week, we got a reply brief in an earlier action, similar action that had been brought against the developers of Tornado Cash, which is a privacy tool on the Ethereum network,

236
00:19:58.530 --> 00:20:20.975
that really laid out for the first time in full the way the government thinks about or the the DOJ specifically thinks about what money transmission is in the context of noncustodial tools. And it has, you know, had language in this brief that some of your listeners might remember from the time, saying that, listen, in the way that a frying pan transmits heat or USB cable transmits data, a noncustodial

237
00:20:21.275 --> 00:20:26.100
tool can transmit funds, and that doesn't require actual custody or control of those funds.

238
00:20:27.059 --> 00:20:29.720
And right away, if you just think through what that means,

239
00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:37.320
you get to a really crazy and and dark place. There's no limiting principle if you're talking about frying pans transmitting heat.

240
00:20:38.100 --> 00:20:44.325
If all it takes is to you you take some action that facilitates people's movement of their own money on a peer to peer basis,

241
00:20:45.024 --> 00:20:46.485
and now you're a money transmitter,

242
00:20:47.345 --> 00:20:54.885
well, you know, everyone in the Bitcoin ecosystem is a money transmitter. Right? Miners append transactions to blockchain. They're money transmitters. Should miners have to KYC

243
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.139
transactions? Is that even possible?

244
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.820
Are we gonna have to change the code for mining, or is mining gonna be banned in the United States?

245
00:21:01.120 --> 00:21:02.740
If you run a node,

246
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:12.125
or let's say you don't run a node. Let's say, you know, you use Ledger Live software. You're new to self custody and you're using Ledger Wallet and you're using Ledger Live and you're using their node.

247
00:21:12.425 --> 00:21:28.100
They are facilitating the broadcast of your transaction that you signed with your keys, to the network. Does that mean that running a node on on behalf of others is money transmission and the only people who are gonna be able to directly interact with Bitcoin are people who can spin up their own node. That seems like a real problem.

248
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:34.900
And you can take this to, like, you know, really crazy places even outside of Bitcoin. Right? You know, if someone hands someone,

249
00:21:35.360 --> 00:21:36.980
someone else cash in an envelope,

250
00:21:37.355 --> 00:21:38.175
is the, you

251
00:21:38.955 --> 00:21:49.620
know, timber company that cut down the tree that made the paper for the envelope that holds the cash, a money transmitter has to KYC anyone who makes an envelope out of their wood. Like, you really need to have some living principle here.

252
00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:51.480
And so aside from,

253
00:21:51.860 --> 00:21:56.280
various unjust features you can point to in both the Tornado Cash and Samura wallet prosecutions,

254
00:21:56.980 --> 00:21:59.240
the reason why we started the peer to peer rights fund,

255
00:21:59.620 --> 00:22:03.525
is about the precedent that these cases set if they come out the wrong way.

256
00:22:04.325 --> 00:22:12.345
And so the the broad mission of the peer to peer rights fund is to get involved specifically in court actions, right, in in court cases where

257
00:22:12.805 --> 00:22:14.905
the government or the prosecution or whoever

258
00:22:15.780 --> 00:22:18.440
is making a sort of category error,

259
00:22:19.060 --> 00:22:36.865
between what is a regulated financial institution and what is just code that allows people to operate on a peer to peer basis. And, you know, one of the things that made Bitcoin succeed where the other protocols didn't is that Bitcoin really truly operates on a peer to peer basis. Right? The idea of proof of work, allows people to

260
00:22:37.245 --> 00:22:46.200
interact with each other in a trustless way without a trusted intermediary. And, like, that just is a new concept for the law. And so there are some cases where, people are sort of maliciously,

261
00:22:46.980 --> 00:23:02.265
making this conflation to kill Bitcoin. I I think that the easiest example of that is Elizabeth Warren's dam law bill, which redefines explicitly everyone in the Bitcoin space, including node runners and miners as money transmitters in a way that she knows they can't comply with. There is what I think is sort of like

262
00:23:03.045 --> 00:23:11.545
bumbling conflation or, you know, motivated not looking into it, like the prosecutors in the samurai wallet and, tornado cash cases where

263
00:23:12.019 --> 00:23:28.265
they're not so concerned about the collateral damage of the precedent they're setting, but they really do see money laundering using crypto as a problem. And so they're gonna use whatever legal theory they think is best. And then there's the judges who are overseeing these cases and are gonna have to make these rulings who I don't necessarily think have malicious intent at all.

264
00:23:29.125 --> 00:23:35.225
But the idea of what it means to do a peer to peer transaction, how that's different than, for example, using Venmo

265
00:23:35.684 --> 00:23:37.785
is a really foreign concept. And so

266
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:51.525
main VPI, the mission is to educate policymakers about what good Bitcoin policy is and help them make good decisions. Peer to peer rights fund is just extending this to the judicial branch, which is increasingly where this battle is gonna be fought.

267
00:23:51.845 --> 00:24:05.785
And it's where you can get bad policy overnight without any democratic input. If a federal judge decides something the wrong way, that can become law, and and there's not much you can do about it. And so we need to educate judges. And so the peer to peer rights fund,

268
00:24:06.600 --> 00:24:10.460
part of what we do is we help fund cases like the the samurai defense.

269
00:24:11.080 --> 00:24:13.980
We've raised about $1,000,000 for that to make sure that they have,

270
00:24:14.520 --> 00:24:16.059
the resources they need,

271
00:24:16.360 --> 00:24:19.100
to fight this case and not fold and set that precedent.

272
00:24:19.515 --> 00:24:30.895
We're gonna be involved in cases by writing amicus briefs to help directly educate judges on how this stuff all works and what and what the law is. And then we're gonna branch out especially in 2025 2025

273
00:24:31.195 --> 00:24:34.095
into providing free or or low cost regulatory advice,

274
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:35.659
to people who are building,

275
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:36.700
especially,

276
00:24:37.399 --> 00:24:39.019
open source, noncustodial

277
00:24:39.320 --> 00:24:41.260
tools in Bitcoin to help them navigate

278
00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:43.019
what is a pretty confusing,

279
00:24:43.639 --> 00:24:44.139
regulatory

280
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:44.940
environment.

281
00:24:46.294 --> 00:24:48.715
Right now, I know you asked specifically about these cases.

282
00:24:49.255 --> 00:24:53.674
Unfortunately, not much has changed in terms of the cases. We've gotten one

283
00:24:54.054 --> 00:25:05.690
actual substantive federal court ruling that was in the tornado cash case, and that was horrible. It went about as badly as you can imagine. The judge explicitly saying that the Bank Secrecy Act does not require control or custody to apply,

284
00:25:06.150 --> 00:25:09.210
that the smart contract system in Tornado Cash,

285
00:25:09.750 --> 00:25:10.970
was money transmission,

286
00:25:11.429 --> 00:25:14.065
at least as the government alleges the facts,

287
00:25:14.525 --> 00:25:18.225
that this will have to be decided at trial and that there aren't first amendment protections,

288
00:25:18.684 --> 00:25:27.150
for running the smart contracts, like the Tornado Cash smart contracts. There was a subset subsequent good ruling about the OFAC sanctions against Tornado Cash,

289
00:25:27.710 --> 00:25:29.490
which is great and welcome news,

290
00:25:30.110 --> 00:25:34.690
but does not really help, with the money transmitter issue isn't as relevant in that case.

291
00:25:35.150 --> 00:25:35.890
And then,

292
00:25:36.270 --> 00:25:40.290
we haven't had any substantive rulings yet in, the samurai wallet case,

293
00:25:40.830 --> 00:25:41.570
but the,

294
00:25:42.305 --> 00:25:47.605
you know, we've not had great signs so far. The I think the Tornado Cash decision is gonna make this difficult, and,

295
00:25:47.985 --> 00:25:56.085
the defense counsel in samurai wallet tried to separate out their arguments to first deal with this money transmission issue before they get to the extraordinary

296
00:25:56.625 --> 00:25:57.445
amount of

297
00:25:57.850 --> 00:26:04.429
discovery they need to get through before trial and the judge refused to do those things separately. The judge said we're gonna handle this all at once which,

298
00:26:04.730 --> 00:26:06.669
frankly is not like an amazing sign,

299
00:26:06.970 --> 00:26:07.789
about how,

300
00:26:08.970 --> 00:26:10.909
sympathetic the judge is to this issue.

301
00:26:11.525 --> 00:26:26.585
I would say looking at the election, the one bright spot for these cases in particular, I guess there are 2. One is depending on who ends up at FinCEN, which is the part of treasury that deals with illicit finance. So this is someone who's gonna be a Trump appointee and work under Scott Bissen.

302
00:26:27.899 --> 00:26:30.399
That person could put out guidance that clarifies

303
00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:31.679
how FinCEN,

304
00:26:32.299 --> 00:26:33.440
thinks about noncustodial

305
00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:38.639
tools. They did this twice in 2013 and 2019, and there have not been updates since 2019.

306
00:26:38.975 --> 00:26:46.115
And so it could be quite helpful in these cases if FinCEN comes out and gives useful guidance, which is definitely something that we are advocating for at BPI.

307
00:26:46.655 --> 00:26:57.100
The other thing that will change that could be helpful is the head federal prosecutor in New York, in the US attorney's office here called the Southern District of New York, which is bringing both the Tornado Cash and Samurai cases,

308
00:26:57.559 --> 00:26:58.059
is,

309
00:26:58.520 --> 00:27:00.299
being swapped out for someone who,

310
00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:13.794
you know, is an advisor at a crypto VC fund and certainly understands at least what the words noncustodial means. And so, you know, it probably doesn't mean that they'll drop those cases, but it might mean that they're more careful about what precedent they set for the whole industry.

311
00:27:18.335 --> 00:27:22.914
Okay. Great. I mean, thanks for the very deep breakdown there. I mean, it seems like

312
00:27:23.230 --> 00:27:24.210
all things considered,

313
00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:28.529
it's a much more positive outlook than,

314
00:27:28.909 --> 00:27:30.610
even just a few months ago.

315
00:27:31.549 --> 00:27:32.850
I would like to

316
00:27:35.149 --> 00:27:37.570
I would like to move towards so

317
00:27:38.110 --> 00:27:38.269
the

318
00:27:39.095 --> 00:27:40.475
one of the things that,

319
00:27:40.855 --> 00:27:42.875
there's been a lot of excitement about

320
00:27:43.335 --> 00:27:43.835
is

321
00:27:44.215 --> 00:27:48.235
this idea of Trump doing things day 1 from

322
00:27:48.535 --> 00:27:49.915
with his executive privilege.

323
00:27:51.400 --> 00:28:06.700
I don't know how much insight you have there, how much how how involved you are on that side of things, but how are you thinking about that? Is there really is it realistic to expect anything significant in, let's say, the 1st week or the 1st two weeks of a Trump presidency here?

324
00:28:07.534 --> 00:28:11.475
Yeah. I mean, I think it depends what we're talking about. I think there is broad consensus,

325
00:28:12.095 --> 00:28:17.054
among everyone who's talked to Trump. There is going to be a lot of specifically day one executive orders.

326
00:28:17.455 --> 00:28:21.875
So, yes, Trump Trump will definitely try and take action as quickly as possible for,

327
00:28:22.330 --> 00:28:23.550
a lot of his priorities.

328
00:28:24.170 --> 00:28:25.630
Now Bitcoin specifically,

329
00:28:26.490 --> 00:28:37.905
that's a harder question, and I think no one other than Trump knows what he's gonna do on day 1 or, shortly thereafter. I mean, he's repeatedly promised to free Ross on on day 1.

330
00:28:38.305 --> 00:28:40.885
That is something that's absolutely within his power,

331
00:28:41.265 --> 00:28:45.365
and, you know, something that if the community feels strongly about, they should hold him to.

332
00:28:46.465 --> 00:28:49.920
But, you know, that is something he said he would do, for what that's worth.

333
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:51.540
There's been reporting,

334
00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:52.580
recently

335
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.820
that, there are likely to be either day 1 or 1st week executive orders,

336
00:28:57.360 --> 00:28:59.140
related to SAB 121,

337
00:28:59.600 --> 00:29:00.820
which is the SEC

338
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.940
rule that basically prevents banks from holding Bitcoin.

339
00:29:04.655 --> 00:29:07.695
And that there may well be an executive order on,

340
00:29:08.255 --> 00:29:08.755
debanking,

341
00:29:10.174 --> 00:29:10.835
you know,

342
00:29:11.215 --> 00:29:21.929
perhaps shaking things up at the FDIC and and trying to, you know, either investigate or remedy what happened with operation choke point 2.0, which has been a real hindrance for, Bitcoin startups.

343
00:29:22.950 --> 00:29:24.570
We also at at BPI,

344
00:29:25.270 --> 00:29:31.450
drafted, you know, and it's been made public at least in an early form, an executive order, for a strategic Bitcoin reserve.

345
00:29:32.575 --> 00:29:40.355
And, you know, we we don't know if he's gonna sign that right away. We we're hoping he will. We think that that is a good sort of first step towards an SBR.

346
00:29:41.774 --> 00:29:44.755
Our executive order, is constrained by

347
00:29:45.120 --> 00:30:00.895
the sort of power that the president has as opposed to the the congress. And so we we really tried to think through what is the most you could do by executive order that would be helpful in terms of an SBR. And we we did three things. The first is sort of just the legal pronouncement of it of an SBR that Bitcoin is a strategic,

348
00:30:01.355 --> 00:30:02.735
asset for the United States.

349
00:30:03.195 --> 00:30:06.815
We actually got some flack around the language, from Bitcoiners about,

350
00:30:07.275 --> 00:30:10.735
it's a it's a gold like store value asset.

351
00:30:11.115 --> 00:30:13.375
Really that is a, not meant to have any

352
00:30:13.789 --> 00:30:16.289
specific legal effect. Just because something is

353
00:30:16.669 --> 00:30:24.049
said by the government to be a store value asset doesn't mean it's not also a medium exchange or freedom money or anything like that. It's just signaling

354
00:30:24.510 --> 00:30:33.245
why there are a lot of people if they hear about strategic Bitcoin reserve, they're just gonna think that's crazy. It would be like Bitcoiners hearing we're gonna have a strategic, you know, Doge or XRP reserve.

355
00:30:33.865 --> 00:30:37.405
And, you know, it it just sounds like stupid and and corrupt and grifty,

356
00:30:37.785 --> 00:30:40.285
and explaining that, like, no. Bitcoin has fundamentals

357
00:30:40.665 --> 00:30:42.765
that in some way is is like gold,

358
00:30:43.260 --> 00:30:50.320
really just as meant to situate why you would do a strategic Bitcoin reserve in the first place. So it is it pronounces that. That's part 1.

359
00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:54.960
Part 2 is to move Bitcoin that is currently in the custody

360
00:30:55.340 --> 00:31:00.715
of the United States government to the strategic Bitcoin reserve if the government has final legal title,

361
00:31:01.095 --> 00:31:12.155
to that Bitcoin. So there's been a lot in the news over the last week or so about what is gonna happen to the Bitcoin the United States government has now either from the Bitfinex hack or the Silk Road case.

362
00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:18.960
And it, you know, it may well be that by the time Trump takes takes office, they'll have sold all of that, which,

363
00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:24.320
you know, if I were Trump, I would I would see as a challenge and and one to be redressed.

364
00:31:25.100 --> 00:31:25.600
But,

365
00:31:26.195 --> 00:31:29.635
we got exactly the type of order that our executive order,

366
00:31:30.035 --> 00:31:49.010
references in the Silk Road case where a judge said, listen. This Bitcoin belongs to the US government. It doesn't you know, we don't know who individual x is or we're not gonna give it to individual x. X. And so if the government hasn't sold that Bitcoin, that Bitcoin would be eligible for inclusion in the SBR. And so part 2 of our executive order transfers that Bitcoin to the SBR,

367
00:31:49.390 --> 00:31:51.645
as sort of the seed. And I think there would be something

368
00:31:51.965 --> 00:32:04.200
poetic about, you know, if Trump on day 1 both freeze Ross and moves the c silk road Bitcoin into a strategic Bitcoin reserve. It's hard to imagine a more powerful sort of one two signal of,

369
00:32:04.600 --> 00:32:08.779
where Bitcoin is compared to where it has been in, you know, its relationship to the government.

370
00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:14.779
And then 3rd, and this was the the legally tricky part, we we tried to think through, okay, what mechanism

371
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:20.955
could Trump use by executive order without having to get buy in from congress in order to actually buy Bitcoin?

372
00:32:21.255 --> 00:32:23.755
And the best that we came up with is,

373
00:32:24.615 --> 00:32:29.835
the exchange stabilization fund, which is essentially a slush fund, for the treasury department

374
00:32:30.455 --> 00:32:35.480
that is meant to allow the secretary of the treasury, who's gonna be Scott Bissent, to buy assets,

375
00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:39.720
if he thinks it's in the interest of the long term stability of the dollar.

376
00:32:40.660 --> 00:32:41.880
And the

377
00:32:42.340 --> 00:32:45.640
laws that allow for the the exchange stabilization fund, the ESF,

378
00:32:46.075 --> 00:32:50.415
allow the secretary of the treasury. It it enumerates each of the things. It says you can buy gold,

379
00:32:50.715 --> 00:32:56.415
you can buy foreign exchange reserves or or instruments, and then you can buy instruments of credit or securities.

380
00:32:57.275 --> 00:33:06.120
So gold is not gonna fly. We can't make the digital gold analogy because at the time this was passed, it was there was the Gold Reserve Act and gold meant something very different than, for example, silver.

381
00:33:06.820 --> 00:33:09.160
We thought about, okay, could Bitcoin be a foreign exchange

382
00:33:09.620 --> 00:33:10.120
instrument?

383
00:33:10.580 --> 00:33:11.880
The case law we found

384
00:33:12.225 --> 00:33:16.965
makes that a little bit difficult to argue because the sort of standard legal definitions of f FX,

385
00:33:17.424 --> 00:33:20.325
are instruments that are issued by foreign governments, not just adopted,

386
00:33:20.705 --> 00:33:22.885
as legal tender like it is in El Salvador.

387
00:33:23.825 --> 00:33:29.520
You could use an instrument a securities instrument to stack Bitcoin through the ETFs, but that feels,

388
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:40.500
a little bit less neutral and you're picking winners and you're holding ETF shares. And that really feels divorced from sort of the ethos of Bitcoin as freedom money to have, you know, the United States buy BlackRock,

389
00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:42.820
shares that are custody at Coinbase.

390
00:33:43.745 --> 00:33:49.605
But, it came up with this idea where, okay, instrument of credit is incredibly broad. So why couldn't the United States government

391
00:33:50.144 --> 00:33:54.325
buy an instrument of credit, essentially a bond, that's payable in kind in Bitcoin,

392
00:33:54.945 --> 00:33:58.804
that can be held in self custody by the United States? And so,

393
00:33:59.320 --> 00:34:04.460
you know, we have parts of the United States government in the executive order creating cryptographic standards to do geographically,

394
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:05.740
separated,

395
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:14.060
you know, multisig self custody and really sort of modeling, you know, what is the the best standards in terms of holding Bitcoin.

396
00:34:14.435 --> 00:34:17.815
And and, you know, that that's the way that the executive order,

397
00:34:18.195 --> 00:34:19.235
takes care of that.

398
00:34:19.715 --> 00:34:26.375
And so we're very much hoping Trump will sign the the SBR executive order. We have several other executive orders drafted,

399
00:34:26.755 --> 00:34:27.255
including,

400
00:34:27.795 --> 00:34:30.590
stuff dealing with the, peer to peer rights fund,

401
00:34:30.970 --> 00:34:31.790
style issues.

402
00:34:32.170 --> 00:34:45.244
There are our top priorities and asks for the new administration are first and by far the most important to clarify that non custodial tools are not subject to the bank secrecy act. This is definitely something that between the DOJ and the Treasury,

403
00:34:45.545 --> 00:34:46.365
they can do.

404
00:34:46.744 --> 00:34:58.339
I don't think we need a new law. I think the Bank Secrecy Act is it's currently written. It says you need to accept and then transmit funds on behalf of the public to be a money transmitter. That's just not what self custody is, but it would be good for the government to clarify that.

405
00:34:58.720 --> 00:35:02.420
And then for custodial businesses where you are gonna custody funds,

406
00:35:02.720 --> 00:35:03.859
currently, it's a nightmare,

407
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:09.940
to get licensed as a money transmitter. Right? Some of the best best Bitcoin exchanges like River are not available,

408
00:35:10.585 --> 00:35:12.685
in in New York City because of the BitLicense.

409
00:35:13.065 --> 00:35:26.010
If you're gonna do any kind of, like, custodial lightning startup right now, my day job is I I work with a law firm. I run a law firm that works with Bitcoin startups, and, you know, we help deal with these issues for clients. If you're gonna be a money transmitter, you're sometimes spending well over $1,000,000

410
00:35:26.390 --> 00:35:30.890
to get 50 state licenses. You have a huge compliance overhead and it just it sucks.

411
00:35:31.670 --> 00:35:55.250
And streamlining that process would would be really helpful for for custodial tools. And so I think this is a that's a little bit of a heavier lift than clarifying the Bank Secrecy Act doesn't apply to non custodial tools, but, like, there's a lot we can we can do there. So to be clear, there's there's an executive order drafted that clarifies that the Bank secrecy act does not

412
00:35:55.710 --> 00:35:57.730
cover self custody tools.

413
00:35:58.190 --> 00:36:01.650
Drafted drafted by us, not drafted by the Trump team, but yes.

414
00:36:03.550 --> 00:36:07.970
And so then it's just an open question on whether or not he actually signs it though. Yes.

415
00:36:10.205 --> 00:36:15.265
And then for and then same deal with all the executive orders in this case, but,

416
00:36:15.805 --> 00:36:17.905
the with the strategic Bitcoin reserve,

417
00:36:18.685 --> 00:36:21.985
if do do I recall correctly that specifically it calls for

418
00:36:22.285 --> 00:36:22.785
buying

419
00:36:23.380 --> 00:36:23.880
$21,000,000,000

420
00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:25.240
worth of Bitcoin?

421
00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:26.680
At least 21,000,000,000

422
00:36:27.140 --> 00:36:30.599
with the goal of being the largest government holder of of Bitcoin.

423
00:36:31.460 --> 00:36:39.315
I I don't know if the final version is going to include that specific number or not. 21 is obviously a number that's important in the Bitcoin community and

424
00:36:39.615 --> 00:36:40.194
and symbolic.

425
00:36:41.135 --> 00:36:55.510
The sort of ballpark we got here as we looked at the net position of the exchange stabilization fund, because they hold all sorts of FX instruments now, and the the language of the statute that creates the ESF says that you have to be beholden to whatever,

426
00:36:58.450 --> 00:37:09.065
obligations to the IMF you have. And so the available funds that the ESF could use to buy Bitcoin are, I think, around 39,000,000,000 and so that's we we went with the with the mimetic number.

427
00:37:12.565 --> 00:37:13.305
Do you think,

428
00:37:14.325 --> 00:37:15.224
in your opinion

429
00:37:15.605 --> 00:37:16.650
right? So not

430
00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:18.270
as, you know,

431
00:37:19.130 --> 00:37:23.150
head of policies at Bitcoin Policy Institute. In your opinion, do you think,

432
00:37:24.569 --> 00:37:25.770
Ross will be free day

433
00:37:29.905 --> 00:37:33.845
You cut out there a little bit. It sounds like you asked if I think Ross will be free day 1.

434
00:37:35.105 --> 00:37:41.045
Yes. I think so. I I mean, this is something that Trump has said more than once, said very plainly,

435
00:37:42.690 --> 00:37:43.190
and,

436
00:37:43.570 --> 00:37:51.349
you know, it it I don't know how much political capital it cost him to do it. I do think it will be confusing to a lot of people who are not,

437
00:37:51.890 --> 00:37:55.430
libertarian or or steeped in the, you know, early Bitcoin history,

438
00:37:55.785 --> 00:37:59.005
and so there will be some sort of education around why,

439
00:37:59.385 --> 00:38:03.005
he made that choice. And, you know, there may be some pushback, but,

440
00:38:04.105 --> 00:38:04.765
you know,

441
00:38:05.305 --> 00:38:08.285
I don't know that Trump would have said that so specifically

442
00:38:08.665 --> 00:38:10.684
and directly if he wasn't going to.

443
00:38:13.120 --> 00:38:16.020
Yeah. Out of all of this, that seems the most likely,

444
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:18.420
expectation

445
00:38:19.120 --> 00:38:22.820
out of all the executive orders, all the things he can do in the 1st few weeks.

446
00:38:24.215 --> 00:38:30.795
Because those are, like, for my opinion I mean, he's first of all, he's not pardoning Ross. He's commuting his sentence, so it's basically time served.

447
00:38:31.095 --> 00:38:34.155
So as you said, it does doesn't really take much political capital.

448
00:38:35.015 --> 00:38:36.455
And, obviously, it's a,

449
00:38:38.560 --> 00:38:45.300
would just be a massive win, I think, for humanity for because Ross has served a significant amount of time,

450
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.380
for a nonviolent crime, so it'd be great to have him free.

451
00:38:50.305 --> 00:38:51.825
I'm I'm quite looking forward to that,

452
00:38:52.625 --> 00:38:55.205
and I it would probably be the single most

453
00:38:56.065 --> 00:38:58.565
that that would just be a massive disappointment,

454
00:38:59.425 --> 00:39:02.245
and I'd feel fucking horrible for Ross,

455
00:39:03.020 --> 00:39:07.040
if after all this time that doesn't happen. So I expect to see that.

456
00:39:07.820 --> 00:39:14.320
In terms of the strategic Bitcoin reserve thing, we've and you could just tell me, you're not gonna answer it. But

457
00:39:14.700 --> 00:39:15.599
percentage wise,

458
00:39:15.945 --> 00:39:23.405
what percent do you think, the chances of of him signing a strategic Bitcoin reserve in the first three weeks of his presidency?

459
00:39:24.905 --> 00:39:28.925
Yeah. I I don't think I'd wanna put a specific percentage on that other than to say,

460
00:39:29.465 --> 00:39:32.930
you know, this is something that I I think is being taken quite seriously

461
00:39:33.390 --> 00:39:33.890
and,

462
00:39:34.510 --> 00:39:42.210
you know, both in terms of the executive order and in terms of the Cynthia Lemus Bitcoin Act. And, you know, I think there are a lot of people,

463
00:39:42.590 --> 00:39:45.330
in the industry and a lot of people in the incoming administration,

464
00:39:46.235 --> 00:39:48.975
who want to see a strategic Bitcoin reserve

465
00:39:49.355 --> 00:39:49.855
and,

466
00:39:50.715 --> 00:39:52.895
you know, we're we're gonna do our our best.

467
00:39:53.195 --> 00:39:59.115
I think some of the challenge here is, especially on the legislative side as opposed to the executive order,

468
00:39:59.790 --> 00:40:00.690
Some of the challenge is

469
00:40:01.230 --> 00:40:03.010
what are the top crypto priorities,

470
00:40:03.790 --> 00:40:12.130
and, you know, we're a little bit competing for energy and space and political capital with stable coins and with legalizing VC token launches.

471
00:40:14.895 --> 00:40:17.395
Yeah. I mean, I really don't care about either of those issues.

472
00:40:19.295 --> 00:40:22.355
Do do you do you think I'm absolutely crazy if I think it's 90%?

473
00:40:24.575 --> 00:40:30.559
You know, I I feel like I'm almost too close to this to be able to, to to give a a good answer. But, look, you know,

474
00:40:30.859 --> 00:40:31.520
I think

475
00:40:32.220 --> 00:40:44.045
in congress, the the main issue, like I said, is is competing with other priorities. And and, look, the way it works with an incoming congress, especially with a new president, is that you have 6 months or a year

476
00:40:44.345 --> 00:40:45.645
to really get stuff done.

477
00:40:46.185 --> 00:40:52.765
And then you have to start thinking about everyone's reelection, and there's just sort of less focus on legislative priorities.

478
00:40:53.740 --> 00:40:54.560
And so,

479
00:40:55.100 --> 00:41:04.240
while this is gonna be the most pro Bitcoin congress ever, I think there's no dispute about that, and there's, you know, a lot of interest across the industry,

480
00:41:04.540 --> 00:41:07.120
from an SBR, not not just from sort of pure,

481
00:41:07.485 --> 00:41:11.745
Bitcoin only folks, but from the the crypto community. I think people are broadly supportive.

482
00:41:12.845 --> 00:41:18.465
It's just gonna be a race to see what gets done with regard to digital assets and, you know,

483
00:41:18.765 --> 00:41:25.920
can we make, the strategic Bitcoin reserve a top priority? The sort of piece of good news there is that at least on the senate side,

484
00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:29.920
it looks like senator Lummis is going to chair the digital asset subcommittee.

485
00:41:30.540 --> 00:41:36.825
I think that is a pretty good bet, that we might get hearings on the SBR in the senate. And so,

486
00:41:37.684 --> 00:41:38.345
you know,

487
00:41:39.125 --> 00:41:44.025
hopeful that it happens even if, it doesn't. I think there's a really good opportunity to move the Overton window

488
00:41:44.404 --> 00:41:46.904
and really start talking about Bitcoin as a strategic,

489
00:41:47.365 --> 00:41:48.265
reserve asset.

490
00:41:49.170 --> 00:41:50.130
And the EO front,

491
00:41:51.250 --> 00:41:52.710
that's really anyone's guess.

492
00:41:53.330 --> 00:41:57.109
You know, I don't, again, I don't wanna say an exact percentage, but,

493
00:41:57.890 --> 00:42:02.470
you know, if you look at how Scott Bessent has talked about his view on monetary policy

494
00:42:03.285 --> 00:42:05.385
and how we need to grow our way out of things,

495
00:42:05.765 --> 00:42:18.500
and how he sees the United States economy as sort of a geopolitical issue. I think the idea of an SBR aligns really well. It's public that he's met with senator Lummis, I think, specifically and and talked about the SBR.

496
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:23.119
You know, for those who wanna sort of be wonky about this, encourage you to read the,

497
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:24.819
BPI working paper,

498
00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:27.380
by Matt Pines specifically addressed,

499
00:42:28.005 --> 00:42:28.805
and sent to,

500
00:42:29.285 --> 00:42:36.025
Scott Pesent and his his team really, I think, forcefully making the case why at a geopolitical level this makes sense,

501
00:42:36.325 --> 00:42:37.865
for the United States. So

502
00:42:38.484 --> 00:42:38.984
optimistic.

503
00:42:40.340 --> 00:42:43.480
I I think the sort of betting odds now are about a 3rd.

504
00:42:44.500 --> 00:42:49.000
You know, if if you really force me to, I'd probably say it's somewhere between that and and 90%.

505
00:42:49.780 --> 00:42:51.080
It's a big range. But

506
00:42:53.234 --> 00:42:58.295
Yeah. I mean, when you say the betting ons, like, Poly Market or whatnot is I think it has it around

507
00:42:58.674 --> 00:43:01.575
30 like, mid thirties or something like that.

508
00:43:03.394 --> 00:43:03.894
Okay.

509
00:43:04.994 --> 00:43:09.460
We have about 15 minutes left here. I I kinda wanna move towards

510
00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:12.920
and and before we move, just real quick,

511
00:43:13.300 --> 00:43:15.960
when I'm thinking about these things, first of all,

512
00:43:17.060 --> 00:43:21.705
really, the only person who knows whether or not these executive orders happen is Trump.

513
00:43:22.105 --> 00:43:29.005
And he could change his mind literally 10 minutes before he's planning on signing them. He's he's he's shown that,

514
00:43:30.265 --> 00:43:32.205
that is the way he often operates.

515
00:43:32.905 --> 00:43:36.365
But I am quite optimistic, and I think what a lot of people do not realize

516
00:43:36.745 --> 00:43:37.245
is

517
00:43:37.640 --> 00:43:40.140
us and the Bitcoin community are focused on,

518
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:42.940
you know, maybe 5 to 10 executive orders,

519
00:43:43.720 --> 00:43:44.700
while Trump

520
00:43:45.240 --> 00:43:49.820
will likely sign over a 1000 executive orders in his 1st month of president

521
00:43:50.235 --> 00:43:50.735
presidency.

522
00:43:51.515 --> 00:43:56.895
So it's really a small number amid a much larger slew of of signed papers.

523
00:43:57.595 --> 00:43:58.975
But I wanna move towards,

524
00:43:59.675 --> 00:44:01.455
so from your from your position

525
00:44:02.315 --> 00:44:05.295
going going forward going forward over these next,

526
00:44:06.730 --> 00:44:09.550
2 years, what is what is your biggest concerns,

527
00:44:11.130 --> 00:44:14.670
in terms of regulatory outlook, policy, and how that affects,

528
00:44:14.970 --> 00:44:15.470
Bitcoiners?

529
00:44:16.650 --> 00:44:20.750
Yeah. I think there are a couple of things. So my biggest downside concern,

530
00:44:22.095 --> 00:44:23.315
is still the courts.

531
00:44:23.695 --> 00:44:26.115
I think that's an x factor. I think that is less,

532
00:44:26.895 --> 00:44:28.435
relevant to this sort of,

533
00:44:28.975 --> 00:44:31.555
you know, friendly political moment for Bitcoin,

534
00:44:31.855 --> 00:44:34.195
and we could get really bad court rulings,

535
00:44:34.670 --> 00:44:39.970
that hurt Bitcoin, you know, both from the existing Tornado Cash and Samurai Wallet cases.

536
00:44:40.430 --> 00:44:43.890
There's a sort of recent thing that touches on the peer to peer issue around,

537
00:44:44.430 --> 00:44:48.210
brokerage rules and can certain noncustodial software providers be brokers.

538
00:44:48.525 --> 00:44:53.664
And a judge coming out the wrong way on this stuff is is always a threat and may or may not be something

539
00:44:54.045 --> 00:44:55.905
that either the congress or the administration,

540
00:44:56.765 --> 00:45:04.010
can or would spend the political capital to overturn. So definitely something to keep an eye on. That's sort of the shark that's that's still out to

541
00:45:04.430 --> 00:45:04.930
sea.

542
00:45:05.430 --> 00:45:07.210
I think this is a,

543
00:45:07.510 --> 00:45:13.290
you know, real moment for Bitcoin to prove itself from a from a policy standpoint and and the community.

544
00:45:14.150 --> 00:45:20.295
We've been we're set up now better than I we ever have been. I think we need to take advantage of this. I think if we fail to,

545
00:45:20.595 --> 00:45:22.455
that that could be an issue. So,

546
00:45:22.995 --> 00:45:30.455
you know, everyone at BPI is working super hard. We're expanding a ton. I think it's public now. We're, opening up a physical office in DC,

547
00:45:30.869 --> 00:45:33.450
partnering with Pubkey for that, which should be pretty awesome.

548
00:45:34.470 --> 00:45:36.009
For those of you who are in DC,

549
00:45:36.630 --> 00:45:39.990
it's likely I guess I shouldn't say the exact location, but it's gonna be,

550
00:45:40.549 --> 00:45:48.315
if the the current plans end up playing out, it's gonna be an awesome location, and it's gonna be something that'll be well worth the trick to track down to DC,

551
00:45:48.695 --> 00:45:51.835
to visit this sort of Bitcoin embassy slash bar slash,

552
00:45:52.455 --> 00:45:54.795
media space. It's gonna be it's gonna be awesome.

553
00:45:55.255 --> 00:46:01.250
But, you know, I really think that, like, we need to make absolutely the the most advantage of this time, that we

554
00:46:01.550 --> 00:46:04.130
can and really interface with every part of government,

555
00:46:05.230 --> 00:46:11.810
not just the Congress, not just the White House, but really all of the agencies to make sure they understand Bitcoin and they're not making,

556
00:46:12.190 --> 00:46:12.930
bad policy.

557
00:46:13.535 --> 00:46:14.995
And then I think there is,

558
00:46:15.295 --> 00:46:17.155
while I don't think that the government's

559
00:46:17.455 --> 00:46:22.915
embrace or adoption of Bitcoin is a threat to self custody Bitcoin or Bitcoin as freedom money,

560
00:46:23.455 --> 00:46:28.035
I do think the financialization of Bitcoin kind of is a threat in that regard,

561
00:46:29.230 --> 00:46:32.450
you know, with really easy options like the ETFs,

562
00:46:33.070 --> 00:46:41.325
you know, people who are selling Bitcoin to own MicroStrategy. I think there is people can lose the plot about what the Bitcoin network is here for.

563
00:46:41.885 --> 00:46:42.704
And so,

564
00:46:43.005 --> 00:46:50.464
you know, while I I really I think that SBR is good policy and good policy specifically for Bitcoin is freedom money,

565
00:46:50.765 --> 00:46:53.825
and not a threat to self custody. I I do think we need to be relentless

566
00:46:54.160 --> 00:47:01.140
in encouraging self custody. And I think the people who are in the best position to drive that forward are the people who are building,

567
00:47:01.600 --> 00:47:07.140
specifically Bitcoin companies and making self custody easier, more convenient, and more attractive

568
00:47:07.515 --> 00:47:12.974
than holding Ibit shares. Right? So people who build, you know, really good hardware wallets,

569
00:47:13.355 --> 00:47:16.174
people who rebuild really good software wallets, people who are offering,

570
00:47:16.635 --> 00:47:25.180
liquidity against self custody Bitcoin, people who are offering insurance for self custody Bitcoin. These are all really important if we're gonna compete with, you know, holding

571
00:47:25.720 --> 00:47:26.220
Bitcoin

572
00:47:26.520 --> 00:47:29.260
in your Schwab account or your Robinhood account.

573
00:47:29.640 --> 00:47:30.380
And so,

574
00:47:31.080 --> 00:47:43.065
I'm I'm hoping that both builders and and VCs will really step up and use some of this good regulatory cover we have to to build the tools that'll help, Bitcoin serve that that freedom money function.

575
00:47:46.565 --> 00:47:47.065
Awesome.

576
00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:47.960
And,

577
00:47:48.420 --> 00:47:53.880
I mean, going forward, there's peep there's a lot of people listening to the show right now probably thinking to themselves,

578
00:47:54.340 --> 00:47:55.720
how can they best support,

579
00:47:56.420 --> 00:48:01.000
the work at Bitcoin Policy Institute and the P2P rights fund? What is your answer to them?

580
00:48:01.300 --> 00:48:01.940
Yeah. So,

581
00:48:03.105 --> 00:48:09.345
both are are, 5 0 1 c 3, tax deductible nonprofit. So, you can donate money,

582
00:48:09.665 --> 00:48:19.710
for starters, either to BPI as a whole or the peer to peer rights fund as a whole. And and donating to the peer to peer rights fund as a whole allows us to build up a war chest to support,

583
00:48:20.330 --> 00:48:23.150
developers that are under threat. It allows us to provide,

584
00:48:23.770 --> 00:48:29.950
you know, regulatory resources to people who are building in the Bitcoin space and further this mission of building non custodial tools.

585
00:48:30.945 --> 00:48:33.345
Or you could, donate directly to the,

586
00:48:33.905 --> 00:48:35.685
samurai wallet defense fund,

587
00:48:35.985 --> 00:48:38.245
if if that's your specific issue.

588
00:48:39.345 --> 00:48:48.619
Definitely just, you know, we're gonna try and sound the alarm, when either something good or bad is coming down the pike and and really do a good job organizing people,

589
00:48:49.560 --> 00:48:51.180
to call their representatives,

590
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:57.740
if, you know, something comes up. So, you know, following us on on x,

591
00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:01.315
I'm sure we have various counts on on Noster,

592
00:49:02.255 --> 00:49:04.914
but keeping tabs and keeping informed is really important.

593
00:49:05.295 --> 00:49:07.315
And then later this year, we'll have the,

594
00:49:07.694 --> 00:49:09.315
the policy summit in DC,

595
00:49:09.694 --> 00:49:12.115
which will be a pretty awesome high signal event,

596
00:49:12.655 --> 00:49:20.220
if folks, wanna come to that. I don't know if we've announced the date yet, but, if you go to bitcoin policy summit.org,

597
00:49:21.160 --> 00:49:22.860
that's where, we'll have information.

598
00:49:26.200 --> 00:49:26.700
Awesome.

599
00:49:29.265 --> 00:49:36.805
Do does does the calling your local politician really does that make a difference? I mean, I think it's almost kinda become a meme at this point.

600
00:49:37.105 --> 00:49:44.450
No. I I think it really does make a difference. Not that your local politician is going to listen in-depth to what you say, But

601
00:49:45.950 --> 00:49:51.650
the way this works is lawmakers will have aids whose and it's calling specifically more than it's emailing.

602
00:49:52.430 --> 00:50:17.940
But if a bunch of people call about an issue, that is something that the lawmaker will hear from their staffers. And I think it's really as simple as, hey. You know, we're considering this bill. We got 900 calls saying support the bill. We got 40 calls saying the bill is a bad idea. And, you know, just in terms of allowing lawmakers to hear what the grass grassroots support, for stuff is, you know, that that's really important.

603
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:21.460
The, you know, biggest example that the industry,

604
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:23.220
has, you know,

605
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:31.535
helped us on is with the the infrastructure bill. I forget if it was 2021 or 2022, but where they were trying to add these terrible noncustodial

606
00:50:31.915 --> 00:50:34.575
broker rules that arguably applied to Bitcoin miners.

607
00:50:35.755 --> 00:50:43.694
People in the senate heard enough from constituents that that was bad, that that was one of the things that, like, pushed Ted Cruz to say, listen. None of you understand Bitcoin.

608
00:50:44.120 --> 00:50:58.155
Let's not make these rules that will will dramatically hurt it. So, yes, it's not the how beautiful your letter is drafted or how eloquent, you know, the call is that you have with them, but the fact of your writing or especially the fact of your calling does actually make a difference.

609
00:51:01.195 --> 00:51:04.255
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, I think it's easy to get disenfranchised,

610
00:51:05.115 --> 00:51:05.855
by politics.

611
00:51:07.835 --> 00:51:08.815
I know I

612
00:51:09.115 --> 00:51:10.635
have historically been,

613
00:51:11.035 --> 00:51:12.655
for quite a long time now,

614
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:15.180
and I really do not trust any politicians.

615
00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:19.900
But one of the main advantages we have as a Bitcoin community

616
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:24.060
is that we are a very strong grassroots based community,

617
00:51:24.680 --> 00:51:27.465
and we can definitely leverage that and focus that

618
00:51:27.945 --> 00:51:29.005
in the right way.

619
00:51:29.705 --> 00:51:32.845
Before we wrap here, I just wanna do a quick shout out

620
00:51:33.225 --> 00:51:34.845
to doctor Jeff Ross,

621
00:51:35.385 --> 00:51:40.365
who's up 10000 stats in the live chat. Thank you for supporting the show. Ciel Dispatch is

622
00:51:42.569 --> 00:51:47.150
completely funded by Bitcoin donations. We have no ads or sponsors.

623
00:51:48.410 --> 00:51:57.424
And in podcasting 2 point o apps like fountain podcasts, you can also support the show. If you're not listening live, you can just download fountain in your favorite app store. The largest

624
00:51:57.964 --> 00:51:59.184
zap we got,

625
00:51:59.724 --> 00:52:02.464
for the last episode was ride or die freak, Ape Mithraandir,

626
00:52:03.005 --> 00:52:03.825
with 17,777

627
00:52:05.645 --> 00:52:06.060
sets,

628
00:52:06.620 --> 00:52:09.920
and he's recommending that everyone go back and listen to dispatch

629
00:52:10.460 --> 00:52:12.560
episode 5 with Max Tannehill

630
00:52:13.020 --> 00:52:13.760
and Diverter.

631
00:52:14.700 --> 00:52:16.560
We talked about the dangers

632
00:52:17.340 --> 00:52:18.000
of KYC,

633
00:52:19.175 --> 00:52:22.395
and tying Bitcoiners to our transaction history.

634
00:52:22.695 --> 00:52:28.395
If you're a new listener in general, you should consider going back to the entire back catalog of sale dispatch.

635
00:52:28.855 --> 00:52:31.675
There's hours and hours of really great discussion

636
00:52:32.140 --> 00:52:35.040
that I think has aged quite well and is still quite helpful.

637
00:52:36.460 --> 00:52:37.760
Before we wrap here,

638
00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:44.480
Zach, first of all, I wanna say I'm just incredibly proud of you. You've been absolutely crushing it.

639
00:52:45.885 --> 00:52:46.625
Thank you

640
00:52:47.485 --> 00:52:48.785
for for, you

641
00:52:49.725 --> 00:52:54.465
know, fighting the whole hard battles out there and just constantly you're just constantly grinding.

642
00:52:54.845 --> 00:52:57.985
So I I just wanna say thank you in a big way

643
00:52:58.290 --> 00:52:58.690
and,

644
00:52:59.090 --> 00:53:00.230
that I'm very grateful

645
00:53:00.690 --> 00:53:03.110
to to have you on team Bitcoin.

646
00:53:03.810 --> 00:53:07.190
And then with all that said, what are your final thoughts,

647
00:53:07.650 --> 00:53:10.070
for the freaks? Yeah. Thank you for that.

648
00:53:10.805 --> 00:53:24.025
My final thought is that look. We're fighting one part of this fight. I think it is an important part. I think it's, you know, what myself and the folks at Bitcoin Policy Institute are are well situated to fight, which is advocating for Bitcoin policy,

649
00:53:24.510 --> 00:53:27.250
with lawmakers and then when necessary in the

650
00:53:27.630 --> 00:53:33.250
courts. The truth is if Bitcoin plays out over the long term, like, it it seems like it inevitably will,

651
00:53:33.630 --> 00:53:40.005
this is sort of a rear guard action. There are many ways where, you know, like we talk about all the time, Bitcoin is,

652
00:53:40.805 --> 00:53:45.065
works well with American values. It's in the United States government's interest to have some,

653
00:53:45.444 --> 00:53:47.625
and to have good policy with regard to Bitcoin.

654
00:53:48.164 --> 00:53:51.305
But there are aspects of Bitcoin that do take some power,

655
00:53:51.845 --> 00:53:55.530
away from the state. Right? Its monetary policy is not set,

656
00:53:55.930 --> 00:53:58.590
by the Federal Reserve. It's set by code.

657
00:53:58.970 --> 00:54:03.470
You don't need permission to move Bitcoin. You don't need permission to mine Bitcoin, etcetera.

658
00:54:03.850 --> 00:54:15.645
And so there is you know, as important as this fight is, and I think it's important and I encourage everyone to both support it. And if there are ways that we can help whatever you're building from policy perspective, please reach out so we can be your advocate.

659
00:54:16.025 --> 00:54:28.790
In some sense, what we're doing is a a rear guard action. Right? It's to buy time for the builders. Right? The most important people in the Bitcoin ecosystem who are the people who run Bitcoin, who who build stuff on Bitcoin, who make Bitcoin usable,

660
00:54:29.250 --> 00:54:50.825
to build the Cypherpunk tools that make Bitcoin useful permissionless money and make it into freedom money. And, you know, I also wanna so definitely shout out to all of the developers who are working especially on noncustodial tech. The best thing we can do in terms of having good Bitcoin policy is to have good tech that, you know, the government will have to build policy around because it just exists.

661
00:54:51.285 --> 00:54:58.710
And, you know, that that is the most powerful thing, and that's sort of the the cypherpunk ethos of getting a good policy through just building,

662
00:54:59.170 --> 00:55:01.349
rather than asking permission. So that's super important.

663
00:55:01.730 --> 00:55:12.245
And then also, I wanna give a shout out to the the people at at HRF who are taking the tech that exists there now and using Bitcoin directly as freedom money to help people who who need it the most.

664
00:55:12.625 --> 00:55:15.685
So, you know, we wanna be your advocates in Washington DC.

665
00:55:16.385 --> 00:55:19.550
Definitely don't be a stranger. Reach out to us and,

666
00:55:19.930 --> 00:55:22.590
you know, we'd love your feedback. We love your donations,

667
00:55:23.210 --> 00:55:31.070
and and please stay tuned, when we need to to mobilize you all, to to protect Bitcoiners from from bad policy and to help create good policy.

668
00:55:31.370 --> 00:55:34.110
But, you know, important not to lose sight of,

669
00:55:34.505 --> 00:55:37.645
you know, what what the Bitcoin network does and how important,

670
00:55:38.265 --> 00:55:40.125
the people are who are actually building,

671
00:55:40.665 --> 00:55:43.165
ways to leverage the Bitcoin network for good.

672
00:55:46.905 --> 00:55:47.405
Awesome.

673
00:55:49.910 --> 00:55:51.530
Wonderful conversation, Zach.

674
00:55:51.830 --> 00:55:53.130
Thank you for joining us.

675
00:55:53.910 --> 00:55:55.210
Freaks, I have,

676
00:56:00.470 --> 00:56:02.810
on Tuesday, I'm planning to have a

677
00:56:03.515 --> 00:56:05.615
wide ranging conversation with Jack Dorsey.

678
00:56:05.915 --> 00:56:07.615
I do not know the time yet,

679
00:56:08.635 --> 00:56:10.415
but if you follow me on nosterprimal.net/odel

680
00:56:11.675 --> 00:56:15.330
or you subscribe on YouTube, you'll be notified of the time ahead of time.

681
00:56:16.290 --> 00:56:20.950
Otherwise, you can listen to it in your favorite podcast app as always by searching dispatch.

682
00:56:22.290 --> 00:56:25.750
I'm gonna be trying to keep the momentum up here, with dispatch.

683
00:56:26.770 --> 00:56:29.670
Life has been quite busy lately, both on the professional

684
00:56:30.225 --> 00:56:31.285
and family side,

685
00:56:31.665 --> 00:56:33.205
which I'm quite grateful for.

686
00:56:33.905 --> 00:56:39.925
But, it's it's really important to be able to connect with you guys directly and talk about these very important conversations.

687
00:56:41.425 --> 00:56:42.325
And with that,

688
00:56:42.785 --> 00:56:44.805
I love you all. Stay humble, Stack Sats.

Podpage Voice Mail Mic Icon Podpage Voicemail Arrow Icon