Jan. 22, 2025

CD150: JACK DORSEY

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Citadel Dispatch
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Jack Dorsey is founder of both Twitter, now X, and Square, now Block. We discuss his strong focus on bitcoin and nostr, lessons learned across his many years of experience, censorship on twitter, and the promise that open source freedom tech holds for humanity.

We also celebrate the pardon of Ross Ulbricht after 12 years in jail for the nonviolent crime of running SIlk Road. The news broke while we were live.

Jack on Nostr: https://primal.net/jack

EPISODE: 150
BLOCK: 880265
PRICE: 939 sats per dollar


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learn more about me: https://odell.xyz

(00:00:03) Ross Ulbricht - 2021 Interview - Bitcoin Miami

(00:05:55) Introduction and Ross's Background

(00:07:35) Conversation with Jack Dorsey Begins

(00:10:14) Jack Dorsey on Bitcoin's Importance

(00:15:13) Bitcoin's Challenges and Distractions

(00:19:12) ETFs and Bitcoin Adoption

(00:23:00) Companies Stacking Bitcoin

(00:25:32) Bitcoin Usage and Adoption Challenges

(00:31:09) US Financial System and Global Comparisons

(00:35:57) Trump Coin and Meme Coins

(00:39:02) Nostr as a Social Media Protocol

(00:47:02) Nostr's Potential and Challenges

(00:54:01) Nostr's Bootstrapping and Community Building

(01:00:06) Algorithmic Choice and Content Discovery

(01:06:13) Nostr's Role in Content and News

(01:17:03) Jack Dorsey on Nostr and Bitcoin Wallets

(01:34:08) Nostr vs. Traditional Social Media

(01:40:24) Cashu and Open Protocols

(01:51:01) Final Thoughts and Ross Ulbricht's Pardon

Chapters

00:03 - Ross Ulbricht - 2021 Interview - Bitcoin Miami

05:55 - Introduction and Ross's Background

07:35 - Conversation with Jack Dorsey Begins

10:14 - Jack Dorsey on Bitcoin's Importance

15:13 - Bitcoin's Challenges and Distractions

19:12 - ETFs and Bitcoin Adoption

23:00 - Companies Stacking Bitcoin

25:32 - Bitcoin Usage and Adoption Challenges

31:09 - US Financial System and Global Comparisons

35:57 - Trump Coin and Meme Coins

39:02 - Nostr as a Social Media Protocol

47:02 - Nostr's Potential and Challenges

54:01 - Nostr's Bootstrapping and Community Building

01:00:06 - Algorithmic Choice and Content Discovery

01:06:13 - Nostr's Role in Content and News

01:17:03 - Jack Dorsey on Nostr and Bitcoin Wallets

01:34:08 - Nostr vs. Traditional Social Media

01:40:24 - Cashu and Open Protocols

01:51:01 - Final Thoughts and Ross Ulbricht's Pardon

Transcript
WEBVTT

NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 01/22/2025 13:44:01
Duration: 6802.005
Channels: 1

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You're good to go? Yep. Alright.

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Hello. This is Ross Ulbrich.

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I'm calling you today from prison

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from, a maximum security

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federal protectorate.

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We don't have much time together today, and I don't know if I'll get another chance to talk to you like this.

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I'll say as much as I can, but when it's time to go,

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I'll have to hang up and go back to my cell.

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I have lost my freedom.

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That's what I wanna talk to you about today.

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I want you

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to understand what it means

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to lose your freedom.

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Bitcoin has been transforming our world

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since that very first block in the blockchain.

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Now let me tell you something.

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We are just getting started.

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Wherever Bitcoin has been embraced anywhere in the world,

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freedom and equality follow.

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Bitcoin

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is the embodiment of freedom.

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So now

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look what we have.

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On one side, we have

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loss of freedom.

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We have

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despair and darkness.

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And on the other side, we have Bitcoin.

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We have freedom,

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quality,

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and hope.

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The 2 can't sit side by side, so

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the darkness has to be kept out of sight. It has to

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be ignored and forgotten.

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But listen,

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here I am.

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I'm crying out from that very same darkness.

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This is a cry for help.

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My mother can't do this by herself,

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and and I'm crying out not just for me, but for all of us.

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We need your help.

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We need you to care.

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We need you to look

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at the stark contrast between

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the freedom of Bitcoin on the one hand

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and what it means to be locked in a cage

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until you die.

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We have a choice

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today,

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right now.

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Do we

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ignore what's happening?

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The loss of freedom,

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the dehumanization,

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or do we wake up?

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Bitcoin

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is strong.

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Bitcoin

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is powerful.

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We are powerful,

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and our work is not over.

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It's time to wake up.

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It's time to take the next step.

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I've spent

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the last 8 years watching Bitcoin grow up midyear.

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I've seen

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incredible innovation.

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I've seen

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inspiring courage.

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We didn't know how things would turn out for Bitcoin back in the beginning, but

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over the years, I've been

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continually

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impressed

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what you've accomplished.

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I am proud of you,

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and I have no doubt we can do anything we set our minds to.

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We are transforming

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the global economy.

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We have brought a taste of freedom and equality to

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far corners of the world.

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I know we can transform criminal justice too.

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And now,

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today,

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I challenge you to set your sights

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on the hardest problems.

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I challenge you to shine Bitcoin light into the darkest places.

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I challenge you to set us free.

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We need more miracles.

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I have to go sooner.

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I don't wanna go.

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I don't want go back to that cell.

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I wanna be there with you.

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It's called

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you've done so much for me today.

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Talking with you today

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is the most freedom I've felt in a long, long time.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for giving me your attention.

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I will never forget this day.

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The memory of this day,

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this can never be taken from us.

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Okay.

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This call is from a silent prison.

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I'm gonna go now.

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Thank you.

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Goodbye.

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Happy Bitcoin

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Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

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discussion.

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That intro was no other than Ross Ulbricht.

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He did that interview,

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almost 4 years ago in Miami at the Bitcoin conference in Miami

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from federal prison. He's been in jail for 12 years now for a nonviolent crime.

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He should hopefully be freed any day now.

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I know there's many of us that are sitting on pins and needles

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hoping hoping it happens sooner rather than later.

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I was hoping that it would happen actually before we went live.

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But regardless, it's incredibly important to highlight. I I would say that

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there's a lot of things I've been frustrated with the Bitcoin community as we've grown grown bigger.

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But it's it's super inspiring and powerful to see people rally around this cause, to free Ross. So, hopefully, we'll see that very soon. He's been in jail for 12 years now.

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And I would just say, like, personally,

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I was there when that interview happened,

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and

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I was backstage.

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And immediately following

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immediately following it, they after giving after the prison gave permission to the interview, his only interview,

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they they threw him in the hole. They threw him in solitary confinement, and I was there with his mother.

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And from that point on from that point on, I knew it was impossible for us to have won without him out. So,

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hopefully, it's imminent.

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And with all that said, I have a great conversation live from a beach somewhere.

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So you might hear some beach noises in the background.

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If it gets really bad,

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tell us, and we'll evacuate the beach. But I'm live here with Jack Dorsey, founder of Twitter

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and Square. Now Twitter's called x. Now Square is called block. How's it going, Jack?

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I'm good. Thank you. I think I've been on almost every other Bitcoin podcast than

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before this one, so I've just been waiting for the invite. This is the final boss.

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So, technically, if you've been a listener for CIL dispatch,

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I've had Jack on the feed twice.

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We had on stage conversations in Riga that I then,

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syndicated out on the feed, but this is Doesn't count. Indeed his first time on a proper seal dispatch. It is seal dispatch 150,

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so it's a very special number. It's an honor to have you here for such a special number. Thank you. What's what's special about the number? 150. It's a round large number.

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Do you not think 150 is a a special number? Great number. Congrats on doing a 150 of them. Did the Regal one count in the 150? No. I don't count the when I syndicate the

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Alright. So what number you're actually at, though? It was significantly higher than 150. I don't know. Probably over 200.

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But, yeah, I only count I only count the real dispatches, and it's good to have you. I I would just say to the freaks, I asked Jack,

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to go on Rogan,

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to speak the good word of Bitcoin and Noster, and,

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he refused to go on Rogan and said instead he was he was gonna come on to dispatch. So that's an honor. But

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I think it's a much

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deeper and understanding audience

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than the Rogan. I've I've also been on him twice. I don't know.

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Yeah. But if a 3rd time would actually help. I feel like it's a different moment. You know? It's,

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you're on the next chapter now. It could be. Could be.

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So with all that, I mean, I don't know where to start. We have a lot to talk about. It seems like no one's complaining about our sound quality yet, which is impressive.

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Like, can you tell who's zapping as well? Yeah. We can see who's zapping. You see the zaps? I mean, they're not really zapping that much,

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but they can zap really much. Anything. We have 8 k zapped, 2.1,000

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sats.

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That's the most sad zap so far. If you're listening on on YouTube,

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you can find the Nostril live chat that is streamed on screen

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at sitaldispatch.com

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along with all the other links for the show.

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You do not need a Noster account to use it, and it has Bitcoin payments built in. We call them zaps.

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So that is awesome.

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I mean, I think a great place to start is, you know, why

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why have I mean, with the powerful words that came from Ross, like, why have you focused so much of your life on on Bitcoin? Why should people care about Bitcoin?

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I think it's, I mean, for me, it's about, like, these open protocols.

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For me,

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the reason it resonated

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right away was

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that's how I grew up. Like, I grew up on

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the only reason I am where I am

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and able to do what I do is because of the grace of so many other

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open source developers and people who actually built protocols that

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were open and anyone could build on top of them, from SMTP to,

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HTTP

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to FTP,

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Gopher, Usenet back in the day, IRC,

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Like, the golden age of the of the Internet when everything was truly decentralized,

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and it just felt wild. It felt like a Wild West. And Bitcoin,

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when I first encountered it, felt like that Wild West. It felt like

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undefined, and it felt vast at the same time. And it felt vast because it was on something really big, which is money. And during the time it came out, I was just starting a company called Square, which is a financial services company

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that has to work with Visa and Mastercard.

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We started in we started with the idea in 2 in in December of 2008.

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I remember going back to Saint Louis to my hometown

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to meet,

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this guy, Jim McKelvey, who was my boss when I was 15 years old, and

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we wanted to work together again. And then in January, February 2009,

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we we started building. And at that time,

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Bitcoin and the white paper came out, and

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we spent 9 months asking for permission from Visa and Mastercard just to let us run a pilot

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of small merchants.

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Small merchants couldn't get through to start accepting credit cards because they had to go through a credit check.

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And we had asked permission of Visa to

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allow us to serve

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100 merchants and then

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1,000 merchants. And whoops, we made the we coded the constraint wrong, so it actually ends up we're serving

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5,000 merchants. And

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eventually, we got to 10,000 and a 100,000. Eventually, they they changed the rules for us.

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But just the fact that we had to go through all that,

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instead of just building on something

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that was open, as you would expect on the Internet,

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painted the picture

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crystal clear for me. And then I really when I was a kid, I loved altCypherpunks.

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I loved Usenet, and I loved,

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what those guys were doing. I followed the mailing list.

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Wired back in the day was, like,

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wild. Like, it was it was underground

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back then, and it was following

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all that activity starting with PGP and Phillips Philip Zimmerman and

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exporting the code by Adam Back on a t shirt in Pearl.

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Like, all that was just, like that was my joy. I wasn't working in that space, but it was my joy. So I think it's important because it gives us

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permissionless technology.

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And it's

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it's not the only one, but it's the one that matters the most right now

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because

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we can actually

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build on top of it. And we can build our livelihoods on top of it, and people can

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choose different paths instead of a typical corporate job

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to go down a path of being a developer

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and getting a grant from someone like Open Sats and

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doing what they love every single day. And I think that only expands as Bitcoin becomes more and more

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accessible. I think that's the only

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blockade right now

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and more valuable to people.

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My biggest worry is that it becomes irrelevant. And

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I think that a real a re a relevance

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comes from people not finding

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the use case and the value on it. And so that's

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what I wanna do to

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to make sure it has value, to make sure it has relevance, to make sure it's a currency,

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not just a a digital gold,

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store of value, but, actually, it's used every single day in opposition of all the permission systems, which I have to deal with every day in my life for the past almost 16 years.

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Yeah. I mean, so you're

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kind you're I mean, you're literally a gray beard. I'm looking at your gray beard right now.

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How do you how do you wrestle with this,

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like, Bitcoin coming of age? Just last year, you know, with Bitcoin ETFs and and now with this idea of strategic Bitcoin reserve and governments stacking Bitcoin in their treasury and companies like MicroStrategy

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accumulating

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god tier levels of Bitcoin,

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with that

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hope for what seems you were describing is this hope for this freedom money, this money that people can spend without permission

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and use as they see fit.

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I think it's, I think Bitcoin

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is the next currency because it's been resilient to so many tests, and it's met so many challenges head on,

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from its earliest days to

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the block size wars to

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commercialization

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to today.

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I don't think it's the ETFs, to be honest. I don't think it's corporations owning it. I don't think it's

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strategic government reserves. I think it's something like Trump coin.

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I think,

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for someone who was

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promoting

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Bitcoin

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and saying that we're gonna use it as a strategic reserve and then

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to create a new,

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quote, unquote, digital asset around a a meme

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that everyone bought into.

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And that seems to be,

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growing in some regards,

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that to me feels

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pretty dangerous just because it's distracting.

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It's distracting away from, like, what Bitcoin can do, and we've seen this,

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in Bitcoin for quite some time.

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These distractions come up, and and people go crazy for them. And we lose core developers. We lose attention. We lose people who are trying to make Bitcoin more accessible

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because the Ethereum network has

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more APIs, and it has more developer,

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attention. Now it's Solana, and there'll be another thing.

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And if Bitcoin can't keep that developer attention,

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I think we become more and more irrelevant, because people are not making it as accessible.

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And they're not building the interfaces for it. They're not building use cases for it. So

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I see all these things as a challenge. I believe in my heart Bitcoin will overcome

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when people see through

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the superficial aspects of it

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and the lightness of it.

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These like, the the shit coins and, you know, all the meme coins and whatnot.

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But

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it's it's gonna be challenging because people are going to to go there, and they're gonna follow it.

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I guess so. There's a there's a lot to unpack there.

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Beef

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I I mean, I wanna start with your comment about the ETFs.

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So it sounds like you don't think the ETFs are necessarily a good thing. Do you think they're explicitly a bad thing, though?

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I don't think they're a good thing or a bad thing. I think they're a distracting thing. I

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like, as you know, you don't

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own your Bitcoin unless you own your keys. And

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this is, like, another level of indirection to buy Bitcoin.

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You can make the argument that you meet people where they are, and people might be with their brokerages

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and on Wall Street and want a common vehicle to to buy these things.

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And then you can make the argument that eventually they'll convert it, but people are lazy as well.

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And I think it has the distraction of potentially keeping it more

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store value rather than,

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something I can use on a daily basis to buy my food, buy a coffee,

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to pay a babysitter,

294
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pay for services, and actually transact around the world, do remittance around the world. So

295
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I think they're neutral, but it's a question of, like,

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how

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do people go down the rabbit hole? Do people actually pull the thread on what this actually means? Do people want to be their own bank? Do people want to have their own keys?

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And actually

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go into this permission, this land where they have the responsibility over it. And that's scary because when you have responsibility on

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what might be a lot of money to some people, then,

301
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I don't wanna lose it. And

302
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I don't want that responsibility. I wanna pay someone else to do it. I want or I want an abstraction of an abstraction to to deal with it. And I know it's there because I know the brokerage and all these things. So

303
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I don't know. You meet people where they are. It makes sense. But, like, if we don't do the other half of,

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of

305
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enabling people and ask having people ask the question why go deeper and why pull the thread,

306
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Then I again, I think Bitcoin becomes irrelevant. It's it's only going to be one use case,

307
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which is the store value instead of and the trading platform instead of what we all know it can be. If you just go back to the white paper, what is it? It's

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electronic cash, peer to peer electronic cash. Where is that vision right now?

309
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It's distracted right now

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by ETFs. It's distracted by the BlackRocks.

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I'm grateful for them because they validate. And, you know, more value

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the more that number goes up, the more valuable it is, and the more people wanna work on it, and the more people turn their heads towards it. But it can also

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pause us as well if we get too comfortable there.

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I mean, I think there's a decent argument that

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it can kinda breed some complacency. It's like you already have exposure. You think you already have exposure. You buy the ETF on Charles Schwab or

316
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call your broker or whatever, and you think you have exposure, and then you just stop there. You're content Exactly. As a result. Alright. Check that box. Done. But also at the same time. Right? I mean, I think it clearly opens up

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Bitcoin to a larger market in terms of

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of, like, the Bitcoinization

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of finance, and it definitely increases

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Bitcoin holders purchasing power.

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And if if you're talking about developers that are receiving OpenSats grants or

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Bit corners around the world that are self custodying their Bitcoin and trying to build strong local communities, the fact that they get increased purchasing power is obviously

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a significant benefit. Yeah. That's amazing. Have you noticed that there's this weird phenomenon

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where it's like anything that increases the price of Bitcoin is perceived as bad by a certain subset

325
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of the Bitcoin community?

326
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Yeah. I've seen that.

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I don't

328
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I go back and forth. I mean, again, like, it's, where's the attention?

329
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I think when we're in the heat of moment of the price going up all the time, we people tend to focus on that, and they tend to focus less on what does Bitcoin need to actually scale to the next 100,000,000 people.

330
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And it needs a lot. Like, it needs a lot of accessibility and needs better key management.

331
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People need to feel, like,

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safe with taking on that responsibility that they're not going to lose it.

333
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And,

334
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but at the same time, like, it does

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show that people actually value this. This I mean, it's it's all made up. Right? It's a belief system. This made up invention happens to be mat mathematically sound,

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and we have a lot of believers, and that price is an indication of the belief,

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but

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there also has to be the corresponding fundamentals underneath.

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And if it's just

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digital gold, then it's just as good as a meme coin.

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Like, if it provides no other utility to people and they're not using it every day for that, then it is a meme coin ultimately over time,

342
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and that would be a shame.

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I mean, you keep bringing it back to Trump coin. We're gonna talk about Trump coin in a little bit. Meme coin.

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I mean, Trump coin is the meme coin of the day right now, the soup du jour. I think millennials. No? By the way, the zaps the zaps keep flowing. Thank you, Freaks, for supporting the show. I see you.

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But I wanna before we get there so ETFs we're talking about ETFs. What's your opinion

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on this on this trend of

347
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companies, you know, public companies specifically, but also private companies stacking Bitcoin on their balance sheet? MicroStrategy is the most obvious example with 460,000

348
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Bitcoin.

349
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But even your business block

350
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has a little over 8,000 Bitcoin on its balance sheet, and I believe you're actively stacking. We do see we do see into a into larger stack sets. We're stacking sets, stacking bits,

351
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but the sets denomination.

352
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That's not on the list of topics.

353
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So

354
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yeah. I mean, I I think,

355
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I don't know. For for for us, we

356
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we we have a lot of development work in Bitcoin. And if I could pick one thing, it would be that. If I could pick 2 things, it would be

357
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what we're doing with, Spiral. If I could pick 3 things, it would be the education

358
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that we try to do around Bitcoin,

359
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specifically around, Cash App customers

360
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and and Bitkey customers.

361
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And then 4 would be, like, having Bitcoin as a company because it's a hedge against anything going on.

362
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I

363
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we didn't buy a lot,

364
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relative to someone like,

365
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Michael Shaggy

366
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because,

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one, I don't feel good about just companies owning

368
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all the supply

369
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and all the Bitcoin. 2,

370
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we have a business, and that was a challenge business. And he kinda turned it into a different sort of business.

371
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And

372
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he was early before the ETFs, and,

373
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like, it made sense. But we have a business. It's growing. It's it's, strong.

374
00:24:12.885 --> 00:24:17.610
But having it as a as a reserve, just in case, I think makes a lot of sense. And

375
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it can it can certainly potentially help us in the future. But I don't know how long we do this for. I feel like we have

376
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enough to keep us happy. We don't need to have more.

377
00:24:28.250 --> 00:24:31.950
We need to facilitate more. And that that's what I would rather

378
00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:34.405
it's what I would rather put our attention on.

379
00:24:35.345 --> 00:24:37.125
Okay. That all makes sense to me.

380
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I would say, though, that I think that ultimately,

381
00:24:45.350 --> 00:24:50.410
the goal of every business in the world should be to stack as much Bitcoin as possible, the goal of every individual,

382
00:24:51.190 --> 00:24:53.610
probably the goal of every functioning government.

383
00:24:53.990 --> 00:25:06.685
Yeah. You said this, Enrico. Maybe the goal is not stack as much as possible, but use it and transact in it as much as possible. I'd be down for that. Okay. Like, paying our vendors and paying our employees. Do you do any of that?

384
00:25:07.305 --> 00:25:15.330
We pay all the spiral people with, with Bitcoin. Oh, that's awesome. We don't have any vendors I'm aware of that accept Bitcoin, but we would. We we have it set up for that.

385
00:25:15.890 --> 00:25:19.029
And, we're working so that our employees can also convert

386
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to Bitcoin. They can do it right now if they put their paycheck in Cash App and do the auto convert into Bitcoin,

387
00:25:25.330 --> 00:25:28.630
through Cash App. So we have all the tools available. It's just, you know, not something,

388
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that's,

389
00:25:30.625 --> 00:25:35.125
you know, dominant across the entire company. Yeah. So, I mean, on that note, the year is 2025.

390
00:25:35.745 --> 00:25:38.245
Why can't people pay Bitcoin at Square terminals?

391
00:25:41.025 --> 00:25:42.725
We haven't seen the usage

392
00:25:43.424 --> 00:25:55.420
on the currency side that we want. And we actually went to sellers, and we asked them, if you if you could only have one thing from us, would it be auto convert into Bitcoin, a percentage of your revenue,

393
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or would it be accept Bitcoin?

394
00:25:58.605 --> 00:26:10.065
Nearly a 100% said auto convert. So we built that because it it's not easy either. Like, you know, just doing that. And they have a slider that can go, you know, from 0 to I don't know what the the limit is. Maybe

395
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50%

396
00:26:11.565 --> 00:26:12.305
auto convert,

397
00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:16.520
their Bitcoin, and sellers actually use it. They they love it.

398
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And I think

399
00:26:18.340 --> 00:26:20.020
if we're to if we're to,

400
00:26:21.060 --> 00:26:23.160
if we're to play out the road map for,

401
00:26:23.860 --> 00:26:25.080
you know, hyper

402
00:26:25.905 --> 00:26:26.405
Bitcoinization

403
00:26:27.185 --> 00:26:28.645
and what mass adoption.

404
00:26:29.265 --> 00:26:31.285
I think store value does make sense.

405
00:26:31.985 --> 00:26:38.965
And then, you know, building on that, when more and more sellers have it or more and more people have it, they can actually use it. Maybe remittance

406
00:26:39.679 --> 00:26:42.100
is the next thing. Maybe like a b to b thing,

407
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:48.340
and then more con consumer to consumer. But there's places outside the US and outside Europe

408
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:49.540
that accept

409
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.460
it almost every day. Like, we're in one of those countries right now,

410
00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:54.260
and

411
00:26:55.235 --> 00:26:57.415
I've paid dinner here. I've paid for coffee

412
00:26:57.795 --> 00:27:05.495
with Bitcoin, with my my Bitkey wallet. I've paid with Lightning. I've played on chain. It all works. There's no questions from the merchant.

413
00:27:06.115 --> 00:27:07.655
They're happy to accept it.

414
00:27:07.955 --> 00:27:08.455
And,

415
00:27:09.350 --> 00:27:14.250
like, we just don't have that in the United States right now. And I don't think just us building it into the terminal

416
00:27:14.950 --> 00:27:15.450
would

417
00:27:15.910 --> 00:27:18.410
create it because not enough people have Bitcoin

418
00:27:18.790 --> 00:27:21.885
in their wallets or know how to spend it, in the US,

419
00:27:22.605 --> 00:27:25.265
yet. And I think Strike tried this with some of the terminals

420
00:27:25.965 --> 00:27:27.985
or the partnership with the, the terminals,

421
00:27:28.445 --> 00:27:33.105
at some of the No. The department stores and The bear market crushed that one. We never really got it out the door.

422
00:27:33.805 --> 00:27:35.430
Well, see, there you go. But, like,

423
00:27:36.870 --> 00:27:40.410
it's it's not easy. Eventually, we will have acceptance on Square terminals.

424
00:27:40.710 --> 00:27:48.650
Why do you think That I guarantee. I mean, that's it's fascinating. I mean, I've noticed the same thing. You know, we'll run Bitcoin meetups in Nashville, Tennessee,

425
00:27:49.590 --> 00:27:52.355
one of the Bitcoin capitals of the United States.

426
00:27:53.055 --> 00:27:53.555
And

427
00:27:54.255 --> 00:27:55.635
we'll have, you know, 250

428
00:27:56.015 --> 00:28:02.915
ride or die Bitcoiners come to the meetup. And we make sure that there's a food vendor there, a local food vendor there, seed oil free,

429
00:28:03.455 --> 00:28:03.955
and

430
00:28:05.170 --> 00:28:08.070
we'll onboard her to Bitcoin so she can accept Bitcoin.

431
00:28:08.690 --> 00:28:11.910
And it's literally, like, 2% of people pay with Bitcoin.

432
00:28:12.290 --> 00:28:19.965
But then you're outside of the US and these are, like, the most ride or die Bitcoiners. Right? You The ones that are asking why is why can't you accept Bitcoin as far as term?

433
00:28:21.885 --> 00:28:31.804
So white option, we're seeing the actual currency style adoption. I think it's a moment. Use case outside of the US, but not in the US. It's a comment it's a community momentum thing. Like,

434
00:28:33.005 --> 00:28:33.825
the the

435
00:28:37.230 --> 00:28:39.490
isolated, we don't have strong sense of community.

436
00:28:39.870 --> 00:28:43.410
Like, in a town that we're in, like, right now, it's a very small town.

437
00:28:43.790 --> 00:28:45.730
And when people see

438
00:28:47.085 --> 00:28:49.165
other people use Bitcoin, they'd interest

439
00:28:52.205 --> 00:28:52.705
and

440
00:28:53.645 --> 00:28:53.965
the,

441
00:28:54.925 --> 00:28:56.465
breads because it's word-of-mouth.

442
00:28:56.765 --> 00:28:59.585
And they're not Bitcoiners at all. Like, these people are not Bitcoiners,

443
00:29:00.270 --> 00:29:01.570
but they're using it because

444
00:29:02.030 --> 00:29:04.370
they recognize what it's doing for the merchant,

445
00:29:04.670 --> 00:29:07.410
and they they recognize what it's doing for them.

446
00:29:08.910 --> 00:29:13.595
And they happen to have it. But I think the biggest right here is, like, getting the Bitcoin.

447
00:29:13.975 --> 00:29:15.674
It's a little bit easier here, but

448
00:29:17.015 --> 00:29:20.395
getting it, why do you get it? I mean, that goes back to the Norwalk thing.

449
00:29:20.775 --> 00:29:25.035
And then it's like, okay, is it keep going up or do I spend this? Do I buy my meal with it?

450
00:29:25.375 --> 00:29:29.900
You know, all these reasons, but I think the tightness of the community is a is a big factor.

451
00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:33.500
You know, historically,

452
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:34.620
I thought

453
00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:36.860
part of it was

454
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:39.340
that we have such good

455
00:29:40.825 --> 00:29:47.164
financial infrastructure. And I know it's not perfect. People get debanked all the time, but we have such good financial infrastructure in the United States,

456
00:29:47.784 --> 00:29:55.990
particularly in terms of credit cards and stuff. And that's the reason. But then you you come down here and, like, every vendor accepts Apple Pay. If anything, it's more

457
00:29:56.690 --> 00:30:01.590
it's easier to not travel with a wallet here than it is in America.

458
00:30:01.970 --> 00:30:02.470
Well,

459
00:30:03.250 --> 00:30:09.990
we I think the US just building on building on what I said earlier. I think the US has one of the worst financial systems,

460
00:30:11.065 --> 00:30:13.485
because it's all monopolies and duopolies,

461
00:30:14.265 --> 00:30:15.405
and it's all permission.

462
00:30:15.705 --> 00:30:27.840
You go to a place like Kenya or anywhere in Africa and you have M Pesa, and M Pesa works instantly. Every single person there can access M Pesa. You go to Latin America, a place like Costa Rica, you have Sempae.

463
00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:30.640
Every single person there can use it instantly.

464
00:30:31.179 --> 00:30:32.720
All they need is a phone number.

465
00:30:33.500 --> 00:30:41.325
And it works. Like, it just works. And you you you don't need things like Apple Pay. You don't need things like credit cards. You don't need things like even Bitcoin.

466
00:30:41.784 --> 00:30:44.445
So it's it's, again, it's it's just like a

467
00:30:44.825 --> 00:30:46.205
a choice, and then and

468
00:30:46.505 --> 00:30:49.565
it happened to be the case at a lot of countries outside the US and Europe.

469
00:30:50.300 --> 00:30:52.880
They built these payment systems off phone credits.

470
00:30:53.260 --> 00:30:56.800
So as a telecoms, they would convert the phone credits to money.

471
00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:02.559
It was the original, like, meme coin. Right? It was the original shit coin, and, like, these credits go over,

472
00:31:02.925 --> 00:31:08.545
And, the merchant accepts them, and, you know, they're they're settled, and they're done. They go into the bank account easily.

473
00:31:09.405 --> 00:31:10.445
Should've named this,

474
00:31:11.165 --> 00:31:13.185
this ripped meme coins with Jack.

475
00:31:14.205 --> 00:31:19.220
That clearly, it's I it's the topic of the day. Like, that's It's it's living rent free in your head.

476
00:31:20.320 --> 00:31:21.140
It's disappointing.

477
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:27.460
So real quick. I mean, so you think it's a regulation thing? You think it's mostly a regulation thing in the United States?

478
00:31:27.840 --> 00:31:33.934
I don't think it's a regulation thing. I think it's a company corporate thing. I I think, like, Visa carved out their area.

479
00:31:34.315 --> 00:31:36.095
The banks carved out their area.

480
00:31:36.554 --> 00:31:40.254
They're inner they're they're not, necessarily operable,

481
00:31:41.835 --> 00:31:44.414
networks and protocols across these things.

482
00:31:45.274 --> 00:31:47.370
I for those of you who are old enough,

483
00:31:47.670 --> 00:31:53.370
do you remember when SMS was just getting started? Yeah. Of course. Did you have Verizon or AT and T singular?

484
00:31:54.950 --> 00:31:56.330
I mean, I don't feel comfortable,

485
00:31:56.870 --> 00:32:04.485
stating which one, but I have I mean, back then. Back then. And I've You had one of the 2? I did. I had one of the 2. So Verizon was on the CDMA protocol,

486
00:32:04.945 --> 00:32:06.645
and AT and T was on the

487
00:32:06.945 --> 00:32:08.885
Pan Global GMS protocol.

488
00:32:09.265 --> 00:32:16.230
And do you remember the day that you could send a a text message from a Verizon phone to a singular AT and T phone?

489
00:32:18.450 --> 00:32:19.430
It was 2,005.

490
00:32:19.970 --> 00:32:27.225
But there was there was some years there where you couldn't do that. Right? There were 10 years. GSM was a standard for 10 years around the world. You

491
00:32:27.785 --> 00:32:31.885
could send text messages for 10 years before the text message from AT and T to Verizon.

492
00:32:33.465 --> 00:32:38.845
Was in its own little bubble. It had it and you couldn't send. And then the iPhone, like, really juice that up in 2,000

493
00:32:44.679 --> 00:32:45.260
a bit,

494
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:46.940
and made them work together.

495
00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:51.020
But that's exactly what the US financial system is. They're all different protocols.

496
00:32:51.495 --> 00:32:52.715
They all wanna own them.

497
00:32:53.015 --> 00:32:56.715
They all have to figure out, like, how to interoperate with one another.

498
00:32:57.255 --> 00:33:02.635
The US government just created this, new protocol that's supposed to catch us up with the rest of Europe.

499
00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:06.059
I forget the name of it right now, but

500
00:33:06.520 --> 00:33:10.780
it's there, and it's probably a path towards a central bank digital currency.

501
00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:15.260
It would certainly make one easier, but it definitely solves the problem of, like

502
00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:19.179
for 40 years now, you all have had problems, like, sending money quickly,

503
00:33:19.534 --> 00:33:23.075
which is the only reason, by the way, that Venmo and Cash App exist and PayPal.

504
00:33:23.615 --> 00:33:27.554
Because we abstracted the layer away, and we settled above those layers.

505
00:33:27.934 --> 00:33:33.010
And it didn't matter what bank you were on. It didn't matter what card you used. You would get money instantly.

506
00:33:33.390 --> 00:33:40.210
We can't do that with Cash App in, like, Europe because it's fast and free right now already, the peer to peer.

507
00:33:40.669 --> 00:33:41.169
So,

508
00:33:41.710 --> 00:33:45.169
you know, that's where that's where Bitcoin comes in. Do you want these government protocols?

509
00:33:45.655 --> 00:33:50.315
Do you want the corporate protocols that don't work together? Or do you want a protocol owned by the people?

510
00:33:52.375 --> 00:33:55.195
I mean, but by that logic, it kinda seems that

511
00:33:55.975 --> 00:33:59.755
if you do have a least quasi CBDC with, like, a relatively

512
00:34:00.055 --> 00:34:00.955
open API,

513
00:34:03.490 --> 00:34:06.790
In the short term, Bitcoin adoption actually can get bootstrapped quicker. Right?

514
00:34:07.890 --> 00:34:19.974
Maybe. Your M Pesa point? Like, M Pesa is a final policy. This is you arguing for c d c d c d kind of fascinating because that's an it's just an interesting point, and I think we're going there. Right? Like, I think

515
00:34:20.275 --> 00:34:31.770
in the west, like, the way CBDCs look is they're all gonna be corporate led, but there's gonna be public private partnerships. Right? Yeah. So all the people that are saying that they're anti CBDC will still use, like, x money.

516
00:34:32.970 --> 00:34:34.190
Yep. Or

517
00:34:34.570 --> 00:34:37.310
USDC or whatever, Tether, whatever it becomes.

518
00:34:37.690 --> 00:34:42.990
Yeah. If you see them all as on ramps, then certainly it can be beneficial. But then the question is why do people go to Bitcoin?

519
00:34:43.370 --> 00:34:47.715
Right. Well, because you can't take it. What's the value? No permission required. Yep.

520
00:34:48.115 --> 00:34:57.495
And then And how important is that to people right now? What's important when they get on bed? Convenience. Exactly. When they get rugged, it becomes important. But there's other things that there's other things that,

521
00:34:58.035 --> 00:35:15.090
can lead them there. Like, permissionless is not it. Like, we can build other utility on top of Bitcoin that, like, people run to instead of run away from the banks because they got rugged or because they got shut down. Like, we're still in this mode of, like, people are running away from a thing to get to Bitcoin instead of, like, running to Bitcoin

522
00:35:15.825 --> 00:35:17.365
to get to it. And

523
00:35:18.305 --> 00:35:19.925
I know that a lot of, like,

524
00:35:20.305 --> 00:35:22.325
you know, permissionless folks and,

525
00:35:23.025 --> 00:35:24.724
cypherpunks are running to Bitcoin

526
00:35:25.025 --> 00:35:27.765
for the right reasons, but that's not 99%

527
00:35:28.464 --> 00:35:29.285
of the population.

528
00:35:31.810 --> 00:35:33.589
Yeah. No. I've noticed this as well.

529
00:35:34.530 --> 00:35:40.470
I mean, you gotta make it convenient. You have to make it accessible. We have to make it convenient. The most convenient option. Yes.

530
00:35:41.329 --> 00:35:47.705
And I think Nasser is gonna play a really big role in that. I I wanna get to But before we go to Nasser, let's talk about your favorite

531
00:35:48.185 --> 00:35:53.565
your new favorite investment, Trump coin. Do you really think it's what is what is your opinion on that?

532
00:35:57.785 --> 00:35:58.825
I I think it's,

533
00:36:01.680 --> 00:36:02.660
I think it's

534
00:36:03.040 --> 00:36:04.100
very, very disappointing

535
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:05.460
that

536
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:07.380
people

537
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:09.619
are buying into it. And there's

538
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.215
what is what is the foundation of it? Like, what can you do with it?

539
00:36:17.995 --> 00:36:26.575
And I know that, like, the Jamie Dimons of the world and others say that this is the same as Bitcoin. Like, it has no intrinsic value and, like, you can't do anything, but we know that's not the case.

540
00:36:27.035 --> 00:36:29.215
Like, we we know the properties of Bitcoin.

541
00:36:29.520 --> 00:36:31.060
We know the censorship resistance.

542
00:36:31.680 --> 00:36:33.140
We know the decentralization.

543
00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:38.000
But people are running to something that they can,

544
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.500
they can own a piece of and make a little bit money of on. I mean, it it's a casino.

545
00:36:44.885 --> 00:36:47.224
Like, we made a conscious decision not to

546
00:36:47.605 --> 00:36:50.345
build a casino in the Cash App to stay Bitcoin only

547
00:36:50.645 --> 00:36:56.665
because of the underlying principles of it and because we wanted the internet to have an open protocol for money transmission.

548
00:36:57.045 --> 00:36:57.545
And

549
00:36:57.970 --> 00:37:00.870
we don't see that in f. We don't see that in

550
00:37:01.170 --> 00:37:03.190
hamster coin. We don't see that in,

551
00:37:03.970 --> 00:37:05.190
you know, n

552
00:37:05.730 --> 00:37:07.750
times 1,000,000 name coins.

553
00:37:09.010 --> 00:37:13.190
We see it only in Bitcoin. And there might be another thing that comes in the future that

554
00:37:14.585 --> 00:37:19.805
is better than Bitcoin in that regard, but I don't see it. I don't think anyone I've talked to has seen it.

555
00:37:20.265 --> 00:37:20.765
And,

556
00:37:21.944 --> 00:37:25.405
I think anything that takes away from that is distracting. So

557
00:37:25.944 --> 00:37:34.360
I I don't know. It just it feels like a recipe for disaster, but who knows? Anything could happen. Maybe it's the currency of the country at some point. It's it's not gonna be.

558
00:37:36.580 --> 00:37:39.080
I just I mean, I think it's funny that

559
00:37:40.445 --> 00:37:45.505
every cycle people think I hear so many people say, like, this is the end. There's gonna be no more shitcoins.

560
00:37:46.445 --> 00:38:06.300
I think shitcoins will be here forever. I think Yeah. Because people like to gamble. They have been here forever. There are coupons in back in the day. Like, it's it's the same thing. It's a credit score. Which ones they are. Like, ETH, for instance, right now is, you know, in complete disaster mode. Right? And it seems like it's like Solana cycle and the memes of the Solana cycle or whatever.

561
00:38:06.855 --> 00:38:10.635
And I really don't think of them as a threat to Bitcoin at all. I think of them as a

562
00:38:11.175 --> 00:38:18.075
they're definitely a distraction, and they're just a threat to the people that choose to speculate on them instead of saving Bitcoin and spending Bitcoin. Yes.

563
00:38:19.095 --> 00:38:21.355
But they're they're not a threat to the Bitcoin protocol.

564
00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:23.660
They are because it they're distracting.

565
00:38:24.200 --> 00:38:25.099
Because we have

566
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:28.540
the potential of people wanting to work on the Bitcoin protocol,

567
00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:35.115
and continue to make it more secure and safer and more resilient goes down.

568
00:38:35.415 --> 00:38:37.995
Not by a lot, but it certainly goes down.

569
00:38:38.855 --> 00:38:40.475
Ethereum did that to us.

570
00:38:43.975 --> 00:38:46.235
The NFTs did that to us. Like,

571
00:38:46.535 --> 00:38:47.915
that's where the money was

572
00:38:48.530 --> 00:38:53.430
when they filed the money, and they filed the the developer ecosystem and the and the velocity.

573
00:38:53.890 --> 00:38:58.950
Do The web 3. The web 3. Do you think there's an argument and I hear this a lot because

574
00:39:00.895 --> 00:39:04.675
of how I choose to spend my time. Do you think there's an argument by some Bitcoiners

575
00:39:04.975 --> 00:39:06.835
that noster is a distraction?

576
00:39:07.615 --> 00:39:09.075
From what? From Bitcoin.

577
00:39:09.455 --> 00:39:09.955
No.

578
00:39:10.735 --> 00:39:20.290
It it's it might be a distraction from, like, other social media protocols, but is Bitcoin our social media protocol as well? Do you think we need 1? If you answer that question,

579
00:39:20.910 --> 00:39:32.685
yes, then we need to work on something that that helps. And, like, the fact that, like, we have Bitcoin built into this thing. And the fact that, as you have said, it'll probably be the the

580
00:39:33.145 --> 00:39:34.285
the way that people

581
00:39:35.065 --> 00:39:36.365
onboard onto Bitcoin,

582
00:39:36.665 --> 00:39:39.085
because they're actually creating content and receiving

583
00:39:39.770 --> 00:39:41.710
Sats for it and they're receiving Bitcoin.

584
00:39:42.010 --> 00:39:44.829
I've converted so many people because of zaps.

585
00:39:45.210 --> 00:39:48.109
They feel that a little, that little electricity,

586
00:39:48.410 --> 00:39:52.185
like the, the phone buzz a bit, and they see that money goes in their wallet

587
00:39:53.225 --> 00:39:56.425
and they're hooked. And and then they have to deal with the fact that,

588
00:39:56.825 --> 00:40:08.900
following a 111 people I don't know, I need to go and follow them. Like, where do I find the people that I'm actually interested in and the topics I'm actually interested in? And maybe that's too much work, and they forget the 20¢ that they got. But

589
00:40:09.359 --> 00:40:15.380
if they get, like, $5 or they have, like, some, like, incredible content and, like, it goes viral and they make money on it,

590
00:40:15.680 --> 00:40:18.339
they're gonna stick. They're gonna figure it out, and and

591
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:24.385
and and they're gonna work at it. And we that's the accessibility we need. So I think Nostra

592
00:40:24.925 --> 00:40:25.984
is only symbiotic

593
00:40:26.445 --> 00:40:28.385
and only positive. And,

594
00:40:29.405 --> 00:40:32.224
I think the Bitcoiners who are saying that Nostra is a distraction

595
00:40:32.685 --> 00:40:35.105
are probably doing some distracting things right now.

596
00:40:36.700 --> 00:40:39.040
I mean, that's a 100% guaranteed.

597
00:40:40.140 --> 00:40:43.760
Especially in the modern age, people tend to get distracted very easily.

598
00:40:44.620 --> 00:40:51.040
But I and I I definitely agree with you, which is why I spend so much time on Noster and focus on Noster. I mean, I think Noster

599
00:40:52.115 --> 00:40:58.135
will effectively have done right, bootstraps Bitcoin in a big way. So if you focus on Noster, you're effectively

600
00:40:58.835 --> 00:40:59.815
focusing on

601
00:41:00.755 --> 00:41:06.690
Bitcoin adoption. A 100%. And specifically, Bitcoin adoption as as as freedom money. Like, to your point

602
00:41:07.250 --> 00:41:07.750
about

603
00:41:09.170 --> 00:41:14.710
Bitcoin as, like, an investment, something you buy in Charles Schwab versus Bitcoin as freedom money,

604
00:41:15.490 --> 00:41:26.005
I think a lot of that has to do with where people interact with it first. Right? Like, if you're calling your broker to buy Bitcoin or even if you're going on Cash App where stocks are sold and you're buying Bitcoin on Cash App Yep.

605
00:41:26.605 --> 00:41:32.625
Or even something in, like, Strike that is Bitcoin only, but that you're, like, explicitly going on there to buy Bitcoin

606
00:41:33.165 --> 00:41:36.865
is completely different than your first experience with Bitcoin being a shitpost

607
00:41:37.530 --> 00:41:39.470
that some stranger zaps you

608
00:41:39.850 --> 00:41:40.670
money for.

609
00:41:41.210 --> 00:41:46.110
Right? It's like Oh, a 100%. I mean, I I think back to that concept of meeting people where they are.

610
00:41:46.490 --> 00:41:46.730
Like,

611
00:41:47.690 --> 00:41:50.910
it it's it's just a question of what's the next step.

612
00:41:51.494 --> 00:41:56.394
Buying from an ETF and and making my way to a non custodial wallet

613
00:41:56.694 --> 00:41:57.914
feels very challenging.

614
00:41:58.775 --> 00:42:00.234
Posting something on Noster

615
00:42:00.694 --> 00:42:02.714
and then receiving some zaps

616
00:42:03.095 --> 00:42:05.035
and making my way to a non custodial

617
00:42:05.575 --> 00:42:06.075
wallet

618
00:42:06.410 --> 00:42:07.310
feels very

619
00:42:08.170 --> 00:42:09.610
accessible and feels,

620
00:42:09.930 --> 00:42:10.670
very realistic.

621
00:42:11.210 --> 00:42:11.710
So,

622
00:42:12.090 --> 00:42:14.510
like, I I I do think there's a spectrum always,

623
00:42:15.290 --> 00:42:24.394
but I'm a huge believer in Nostra. I'm a huge believer more in just open protocols, and I think we need one for social media, and we need one for an ecosystem of apps

624
00:42:24.934 --> 00:42:30.535
to compete with, like, you know, the closed wall app stores and Google Play and the app stores of the world.

625
00:42:31.255 --> 00:42:33.515
And we have this we have this protocol, so

626
00:42:33.894 --> 00:42:36.075
let's let's build on it. It's working.

627
00:42:37.410 --> 00:42:40.390
By the way, I see Rob Hamilton in the comments saying,

628
00:42:42.770 --> 00:42:45.030
no and tell Parker Nasser isn't a distraction.

629
00:42:45.809 --> 00:42:54.035
Are you familiar with Parker Lewis? Yes. He's the one who tells me the most that it's a distraction from Bitcoin. And what what's distracting from what? From Bitcoin.

630
00:42:54.415 --> 00:43:05.474
But what what would you what are you not doing in Bitcoin because you're doing it noster? Well, it's like a combination. Right? So, like, Open SaaS has a noster fund where we support a bunch of noster developers in addition to Bitcoin developers.

631
00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:09.099
Right? And 1031 is a venture fund where

632
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:19.180
we support Noster companies in addition to predominantly Bitcoin companies. So you see it's more and more I mean, Noster is something that was bootstrapped by Bitcoiners. Right? It's something that

633
00:43:20.105 --> 00:43:21.484
the majority of our developers

634
00:43:21.865 --> 00:43:26.444
are were Bitcoin developers first. Right? And now they're working on Nastr. So I I don't

635
00:43:27.065 --> 00:43:28.444
I don't think it's without,

636
00:43:30.025 --> 00:43:32.285
I don't think the perspective is, like, completely

637
00:43:32.585 --> 00:43:33.085
crazy.

638
00:43:34.270 --> 00:43:37.569
I think it's it lacks merit, and it's invalid. But,

639
00:43:38.509 --> 00:43:41.650
I understand where he's coming from. Right? Given your thesis is is

640
00:43:42.109 --> 00:43:43.490
a way to bootstrap Bitcoin,

641
00:43:44.589 --> 00:43:45.970
then it's not a distraction.

642
00:43:46.275 --> 00:43:49.015
Like, he might not be seeing that thesis and that endpoint.

643
00:43:49.474 --> 00:43:51.654
Right? Right. He thinks Nasr will fail

644
00:43:52.035 --> 00:43:54.055
and Right. That we all should just use x.

645
00:43:55.315 --> 00:44:01.494
And and that feels like a failure. Which I think a lot of have one option. A lot of Bitcorners think that. The overwhelming majority of Bitcorners

646
00:44:01.910 --> 00:44:02.730
think that

647
00:44:03.270 --> 00:44:04.970
Yeah. Right now, probably. Right?

648
00:44:05.910 --> 00:44:07.370
I don't know. Right? I,

649
00:44:09.510 --> 00:44:11.290
I don't know. I I think

650
00:44:13.590 --> 00:44:16.570
it depends on how Bitcoin they are, I guess. Like,

651
00:44:17.055 --> 00:44:20.915
are they are they are they there for the protocol? Are they there for the attributes?

652
00:44:21.855 --> 00:44:26.355
And if so, like, why does that that not extend to other properties such as social media?

653
00:44:27.295 --> 00:44:27.615
And,

654
00:44:28.175 --> 00:44:29.910
I don't know why you wouldn't want that.

655
00:44:31.270 --> 00:44:32.650
At least having that option,

656
00:44:33.030 --> 00:44:39.130
at least preparing something just in case everything does go down or these companies go out of business or they get

657
00:44:39.670 --> 00:44:47.184
corrupted or they get, owned by the state. Like, don't you want something that you can actually build your identity on and, like, it stays around and

658
00:44:47.484 --> 00:44:49.265
you get to choose whether it it

659
00:44:50.525 --> 00:44:52.385
where it exists and if it exists?

660
00:44:52.765 --> 00:44:55.724
And the same is true for your content. Don't don't you want that?

661
00:44:56.365 --> 00:45:00.770
Because that's why you're in Bitcoin. Right? Because you want it for money. And money is content.

662
00:45:01.070 --> 00:45:05.650
It's the same thing. These are these are very, very symbiotic and parallel

663
00:45:06.030 --> 00:45:06.530
protocols.

664
00:45:07.870 --> 00:45:18.085
But I don't think people value the content as much, and I think that's one of those phases that will enter in when they like, they'll start appreciating why we should be valuing the content and why we should not

665
00:45:18.385 --> 00:45:25.460
allow corporations to own it, but that we can permission them in to use it. And, like, that that to me is what Nostra

666
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:26.740
enables ultimately.

667
00:45:35.935 --> 00:45:41.155
So I see I see someone in the comments asking why we have no video today, Jack. Why do we have no video?

668
00:45:42.255 --> 00:45:45.395
I've barely seen any sort of dispatch for the video.

669
00:45:45.855 --> 00:45:48.355
Most of them are most of them are this clock.

670
00:45:49.530 --> 00:46:05.435
The best ones are no video. That's why. The best ones are no videos. And, also, we're sitting on a beautiful beach. We have a great view right now. We're watching the sunset. We're legit watching the sunset. It's a sunset ride. It's amazing because we don't actually have to look at each other. We can just look at the sunset and talk. We're not faced at each other.

671
00:46:05.895 --> 00:46:07.275
We're faced at the water.

672
00:46:07.655 --> 00:46:09.595
It takes that social awkwardness away.

673
00:46:09.895 --> 00:46:12.875
Because it is usually awkward with you, you know? Super awkward.

674
00:46:14.214 --> 00:46:15.255
So I want to

675
00:46:15.819 --> 00:46:18.640
I mean, you bootstrap Twitter. Right? Which, I mean,

676
00:46:19.020 --> 00:46:20.720
I've absolutely loved Twitter.

677
00:46:21.260 --> 00:46:25.039
It was my only social media for a decade before Nostr existed.

678
00:46:27.020 --> 00:46:30.960
And I've been, you know, mission focused for the last few years to

679
00:46:31.725 --> 00:46:32.785
bootstrap Nostra.

680
00:46:33.805 --> 00:46:34.305
And,

681
00:46:35.405 --> 00:46:39.505
I mean, first of all, you definitely do not get enough credit for the 0 to 1 problem,

682
00:46:39.885 --> 00:46:41.345
like getting critical

683
00:46:41.805 --> 00:46:42.305
momentum

684
00:46:43.165 --> 00:46:44.625
into something like Twitter.

685
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:52.780
We got it in the Nostra as well, though. Well, so I mean, so that's my question for you. Like, how do you think about the bootstrap problem with something like Nostra?

686
00:46:53.880 --> 00:47:01.180
And I guess before that, why don't you just give there might be a bunch of listeners right now that have no idea what Nostra is. It's the first time listening to sale of dispatch.

687
00:47:02.545 --> 00:47:03.525
Just give a brief

688
00:47:04.225 --> 00:47:09.445
why what is Nostra? Why should people care? And then I wanna jump into the Bootstrap problem.

689
00:47:10.545 --> 00:47:11.365
Well, Nostra,

690
00:47:12.545 --> 00:47:15.845
so, like, I don't know how long ago. It was maybe 4 years ago.

691
00:47:16.210 --> 00:47:16.530
We,

692
00:47:17.170 --> 00:47:18.390
we decided that,

693
00:47:18.770 --> 00:47:20.550
like, Twitter cannot be

694
00:47:22.770 --> 00:47:23.350
the view,

695
00:47:24.370 --> 00:47:25.110
the protocol,

696
00:47:26.210 --> 00:47:28.870
and the distribution mechanism all in one.

697
00:47:29.595 --> 00:47:30.975
For us to really get

698
00:47:31.675 --> 00:47:36.255
all the tweets, for us to really get all the content, for us to be the global consciousness,

699
00:47:36.795 --> 00:47:40.895
like, we had to open the doors. And that's how we started. We had a completely open API.

700
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:45.660
Anyone could write to it. Anyone could read from it. You could build whatever client you wanted.

701
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:46.619
And then

702
00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:47.579
we

703
00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:48.539
had

704
00:47:49.720 --> 00:47:51.180
our CEO who came in

705
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.940
after me and then after the other one.

706
00:47:56.845 --> 00:47:59.905
The company wanted to go public, and all that was closed down

707
00:48:00.525 --> 00:48:08.465
because of fears about other clients taking all the traffic, yada yada yada. So, like, the protocol aspect of Twitter failed

708
00:48:09.110 --> 00:48:10.170
when it went public.

709
00:48:10.950 --> 00:48:11.450
And

710
00:48:12.230 --> 00:48:16.170
we wanted to get back to that. I wanted to get back to that. That's why we created it.

711
00:48:17.350 --> 00:48:18.490
It's hard to be

712
00:48:18.790 --> 00:48:21.530
a public company, and you have a lot of

713
00:48:22.194 --> 00:48:30.055
a lot of different incentives that are not aligned with the people you're actually serving. And we can talk about that. But we wanted to create a protocol.

714
00:48:30.515 --> 00:48:30.835
We

715
00:48:31.315 --> 00:48:35.335
I have this this tweetstorm called, blues around blue sky,

716
00:48:36.220 --> 00:48:37.760
which was like, we're going to fund

717
00:48:38.140 --> 00:48:38.880
a protocol.

718
00:48:39.660 --> 00:48:40.640
And we're

719
00:48:41.740 --> 00:48:42.800
looking for people

720
00:48:43.260 --> 00:48:44.720
to build it and to run it.

721
00:48:45.260 --> 00:48:48.465
We'll fund it for years out, at least 5 and beyond.

722
00:48:48.785 --> 00:48:53.765
And we'll end up using it if it's good enough. It'll be our protocol layer, and we'll be the client on top of it.

723
00:48:54.465 --> 00:48:54.965
And

724
00:48:55.665 --> 00:49:02.250
the reason we did that is because we would get more content. And our algorithms would be better. Our business models could be better,

725
00:49:02.970 --> 00:49:04.430
because there's just more content.

726
00:49:05.850 --> 00:49:06.350
So

727
00:49:07.130 --> 00:49:09.530
it's funny because I didn't know this at the time, but,

728
00:49:10.170 --> 00:49:12.270
this guy named Fia Jaf actually

729
00:49:13.050 --> 00:49:14.190
visited the community

730
00:49:15.295 --> 00:49:18.515
and talked with one of our people at Twitter who was interviewing developers,

731
00:49:19.775 --> 00:49:21.075
to take on this role.

732
00:49:21.615 --> 00:49:21.935
And,

733
00:49:22.415 --> 00:49:27.720
for some reason, I don't know if it was if it was Fia Jaff, it probably was. Or if it was us,

734
00:49:28.520 --> 00:49:30.380
we chose not to work together.

735
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:32.359
And,

736
00:49:32.680 --> 00:49:33.320
we chose,

737
00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:35.980
a woman named Jay,

738
00:49:36.520 --> 00:49:38.300
to build Blue Sky. And

739
00:49:39.080 --> 00:49:39.580
we,

740
00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:44.704
we funded her, and this is, you know, just after Elon,

741
00:49:45.085 --> 00:49:48.224
well, we funded her before Elon bought it. And then,

742
00:49:49.325 --> 00:49:52.944
she was on her own and and building on a structure right after.

743
00:49:54.060 --> 00:49:54.560
And,

744
00:49:55.420 --> 00:49:57.760
she started talking about it like investors and,

745
00:49:59.740 --> 00:50:02.080
she was worried about not getting more money

746
00:50:03.100 --> 00:50:04.720
because Elon bought it and,

747
00:50:05.020 --> 00:50:07.680
you know, he was shutting a bunch of things down and

748
00:50:09.234 --> 00:50:10.855
these are all valid concerns.

749
00:50:13.395 --> 00:50:14.615
And I started to get

750
00:50:14.915 --> 00:50:15.895
nervous, and

751
00:50:16.755 --> 00:50:20.295
I I wanted to shift my my funding to

752
00:50:21.650 --> 00:50:24.710
to more Internet permissionless stuff. And I asked, like,

753
00:50:25.090 --> 00:50:28.710
what should I be looking at to fund this space? And someone tweeted at me, Noster.

754
00:50:29.330 --> 00:50:31.270
And I went to Fiat Jeff's,

755
00:50:32.370 --> 00:50:32.870
GitHub,

756
00:50:33.425 --> 00:50:37.605
And there's a page. I know this is a long entry to the description of this, but

757
00:50:38.145 --> 00:50:39.365
basically, this page

758
00:50:39.744 --> 00:50:42.244
described every single thing that was wrong with Twitter.

759
00:50:43.025 --> 00:50:44.805
And here is the fix,

760
00:50:45.185 --> 00:50:47.125
but it's open. It's decentralized.

761
00:50:48.220 --> 00:50:52.480
And anyone can build on top of it, and anyone can improve it with these things called NIPS.

762
00:50:52.780 --> 00:50:55.200
But, effectively, it's a protocol for social media.

763
00:50:55.980 --> 00:50:59.440
Instead of a username and password or an email address and a password,

764
00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:05.925
it's a key pair. So you have a secret key and a public key, which you can give out to people and they can follow you.

765
00:51:06.865 --> 00:51:12.325
It's the only one out there that actually verifies you are you because of the cryptographic security

766
00:51:12.705 --> 00:51:14.085
as long as you keep that,

767
00:51:14.465 --> 00:51:15.605
secret key safe.

768
00:51:15.905 --> 00:51:20.680
It's the only one out there that all data you create, you sign with your key,

769
00:51:21.300 --> 00:51:22.359
so they can verify,

770
00:51:23.060 --> 00:51:27.400
it's you. And that's important in the age of AI and deepfakes and whatnot.

771
00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:31.079
It's the only one out there that you can state, I want to

772
00:51:31.405 --> 00:51:39.505
use this client, but, actually, I don't like that client anymore. I wanna use this client. And your follow graph and all your tweets, all your posts

773
00:51:39.885 --> 00:51:44.065
go with you, and you can see them in the same way that you saw in in the different client.

774
00:51:44.500 --> 00:51:50.520
And it's the only one that you can say, like, I know that this is going to exist for as long as I want it to.

775
00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:54.760
A company can't take it down. The protocol engineers can't take it down.

776
00:51:56.565 --> 00:51:58.265
The government can't take it down.

777
00:51:58.885 --> 00:52:05.545
It exists. It's permanent. If I so if I choose it to be permanent, and my identity is is permanent if I choose.

778
00:52:05.925 --> 00:52:06.585
No company

779
00:52:07.285 --> 00:52:12.030
can do that. No company can say that. There's no other protocol I know of in social media that can say that. None.

780
00:52:12.750 --> 00:52:18.450
They're all, like, captured in some way, whether they'd be the Ethereum based ones or the Solana based ones or

781
00:52:18.990 --> 00:52:25.170
ones that companies are building, that they start or, quote, unquote, bootstrap and then they're gonna give to the community. They're not.

782
00:52:26.510 --> 00:52:30.325
Nostra is it. And I found it, and I'm like, oh, man. This is it. I'd like

783
00:52:31.525 --> 00:52:32.025
I

784
00:52:32.404 --> 00:52:32.964
I was like,

785
00:52:33.684 --> 00:52:38.984
Blue Sky was probably the wrong answer. There's a lot of good ideas in Blue Sky, but, like, this is what I wanted

786
00:52:39.924 --> 00:52:42.930
of just something raw, just something, like, open.

787
00:52:43.630 --> 00:52:47.090
Again, feeling like that early Internet. Like, that's what Fiat Joff created,

788
00:52:47.550 --> 00:52:50.050
and that's what the community still feels like today.

789
00:52:50.350 --> 00:52:51.010
It's a

790
00:52:51.310 --> 00:52:55.410
significant developer community. They're very excited. They're building amazing stuff.

791
00:52:57.255 --> 00:53:00.395
And if you want social media on your terms

792
00:53:01.494 --> 00:53:05.355
and you still want to interrupt with the exes of the world and,

793
00:53:06.295 --> 00:53:10.075
the mastodons and the true socials and the blue skies,

794
00:53:10.820 --> 00:53:15.320
Noster is probably gonna be it because it's the only one that can say it's neutral. The only one.

795
00:53:15.620 --> 00:53:17.000
Everyone else is captured

796
00:53:17.540 --> 00:53:18.360
in some way.

797
00:53:20.180 --> 00:53:22.840
I mean, I think that's a pretty cool thing to highlight because

798
00:53:23.460 --> 00:53:25.000
the way Noster is built,

799
00:53:25.835 --> 00:53:29.295
the only reason you can't see everything that's available

800
00:53:29.755 --> 00:53:32.015
throughout the Internet in your Nostr app

801
00:53:32.795 --> 00:53:37.694
is because of various walled gardens that are put up. If those walled gardens didn't exist, you could

802
00:53:38.730 --> 00:53:42.030
very easily bridge every x post or every Facebook post

803
00:53:42.490 --> 00:53:44.670
or every TikTok post over to Noster,

804
00:53:45.450 --> 00:53:49.790
without permission. And you can view it, and you can interact with it, and you can share it.

805
00:53:51.545 --> 00:53:56.605
But that's not the case because everything's a walled garden. So, anyway, to my point earlier, I think that was a good

806
00:53:56.984 --> 00:53:58.684
intro description, albeit long.

807
00:54:01.144 --> 00:54:10.450
I mean, cut me off anytime. I'm not gonna cut you off. You're you're the star of the show right now. I've been told I cut people off too much. I'm trying to work on I'm not a professional podcaster. I just

808
00:54:11.070 --> 00:54:20.215
like Freedom Tech, and, I love I love this. VC. Definitely not an influencer influencer, anarchist VC. Influencers don't go noster only,

809
00:54:20.595 --> 00:54:29.255
because of the bootstrap problem. They do. You're our first influencer that has gone noster only. Did you say anarchist VC? Yes. I respect that. Thank you for the compliment.

810
00:54:31.730 --> 00:54:37.589
So what do you think about the like, do we have a bootstrap problem? Like, how do you think about adoption to Noster so far?

811
00:54:38.050 --> 00:54:47.555
Is it good? It does it need work? Is there major concerns there? How do we fix it? I'll tell you how we started Twitter. We sent invites out to our friends.

812
00:54:47.855 --> 00:54:51.315
Our friends happen to be tech bloggers that went to South by Southwest.

813
00:54:51.935 --> 00:54:52.675
Our friends,

814
00:54:53.375 --> 00:54:55.555
during the second Southwest that we were alive,

815
00:54:56.495 --> 00:54:57.395
in 2007,

816
00:55:00.330 --> 00:55:02.030
they went to South by Southwest,

817
00:55:02.410 --> 00:55:13.870
and they said, if you wanna follow what tracks I'm going to, what parties I'm gonna be at, follow me on Twitter. Here's a short code. You type follow and then my name on your phone, and the thing blew up.

818
00:55:14.170 --> 00:55:15.710
And that was it.

819
00:55:16.065 --> 00:55:19.765
It it had a moment. It had some attention. We were prepared for it.

820
00:55:20.065 --> 00:55:20.565
It's,

821
00:55:20.865 --> 00:55:24.484
like, it's it's not luck. It's just being ready for it. And

822
00:55:24.945 --> 00:55:28.005
Nasr is already bootstrapped. It's bootstrapped with Bitcoiners.

823
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:39.220
I don't know if you've seen it the past 2 weeks, especially with TikTok, but, like, there are real artists getting on. And that that thing makes that makes me so happy because, like, for an artist, like,

824
00:55:39.600 --> 00:55:40.100
principally,

825
00:55:41.040 --> 00:55:43.540
this is it. Like, I own my artwork.

826
00:55:44.285 --> 00:55:47.425
Nobody can say anything. I can verify it with my own identity.

827
00:55:47.805 --> 00:55:50.945
I can put it up in full resolution in the way that I wish.

828
00:55:51.245 --> 00:55:56.945
I can build my audience in the way that I wish. I can get paid for it. We just we we both know a DJ,

829
00:55:57.885 --> 00:55:58.385
who

830
00:55:59.520 --> 00:56:01.220
who, just gotten Noster,

831
00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:02.340
and

832
00:56:02.800 --> 00:56:04.500
he's been putting his work up,

833
00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:06.100
and he's been getting

834
00:56:06.560 --> 00:56:09.380
sats for it, and his mind was blown. He's like,

835
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:10.500
what?

836
00:56:11.040 --> 00:56:12.255
Like like,

837
00:56:12.815 --> 00:56:16.194
what is this? And and that's when the bars the ball starts rolling.

838
00:56:17.295 --> 00:56:19.555
And and during that time, it felt very slow

839
00:56:19.934 --> 00:56:23.634
in the moment. It's like at South by Southwest, I think we were

840
00:56:24.095 --> 00:56:25.875
10,000 people using it.

841
00:56:26.430 --> 00:56:29.329
And then over the next year, it went up to half a1000000.

842
00:56:30.030 --> 00:56:31.010
Right? And

843
00:56:31.390 --> 00:56:33.570
it kind of felt fast and felt slow

844
00:56:33.950 --> 00:56:35.650
in the moment and also retrospectively,

845
00:56:36.430 --> 00:56:36.930
but

846
00:56:38.030 --> 00:56:41.010
I don't, like, I don't think we have to worry about that. We are bootstrapped,

847
00:56:42.825 --> 00:56:46.045
and more and more people are finding it because of that.

848
00:56:46.744 --> 00:56:49.485
And there's gonna be events in the world that

849
00:56:50.425 --> 00:57:02.270
cause people's attention to go towards Nostra, and there are gonna be things that we build that people just want. Zaps is one of those things. Like, it is a is it a it's a reason to run a Nostr. I can get paid instantly,

850
00:57:03.930 --> 00:57:05.070
KYC free,

851
00:57:06.730 --> 00:57:08.110
and actually feel

852
00:57:08.410 --> 00:57:09.710
Bitcoin and feel

853
00:57:10.665 --> 00:57:13.165
a platform that I can actually own and use.

854
00:57:13.545 --> 00:57:17.245
And and, I have entire control over that. It just feels

855
00:57:17.545 --> 00:57:22.605
super, super magical. But to answer your question specifically, I think communities is a I think Ditto,

856
00:57:23.289 --> 00:57:31.710
is the solve to the bootstrap problem. I think people wanna join communities. No one's doing community as well. Facebook groups is terrible. They have terrible moderation

857
00:57:32.250 --> 00:57:36.496
policies no matter what Zuck says. They're not gonna fix them because it's more,

858
00:57:36.931 --> 00:57:37.802
driven by,

859
00:57:38.238 --> 00:57:40.525
the individuals. Reddit has the same issue.

860
00:57:40.905 --> 00:57:43.405
No one is doing community as well, and

861
00:57:43.785 --> 00:57:48.365
that's where people wanna go. They want more small communities. They want more private communities,

862
00:57:49.020 --> 00:57:56.560
and they wanna know that their content is theirs. And there's not people spying on them, which you can't say for any other platform out there that does communities and groups.

863
00:58:00.905 --> 00:58:06.765
So the the DJ you referred to, his name is Dor with with one o. So you can go to primal.net/door

864
00:58:08.505 --> 00:58:10.925
with one o. I was actually talking about Ollie.

865
00:58:11.464 --> 00:58:12.204
Oh, shit.

866
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:17.820
Well, Ollie I was talking about Oliver. Does he have He he's a he's a painter. Zen Pub? He's a painter.

867
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:19.660
I do know a Zen Pub.

868
00:58:20.120 --> 00:58:21.260
Or if you go to primal.net/jack,

869
00:58:22.520 --> 00:58:24.220
he's retweeted Ollie recently.

870
00:58:24.680 --> 00:58:25.180
Yep.

871
00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:38.915
Oliver Yeah. I guess Dor has been around for a while. And Door is an OG. So where were we? Ditto is a Nostra app that's focused on communities. One of the cool things about Nostra is, as Jack said earlier, there's many different,

872
00:58:40.415 --> 00:58:44.930
there's many different Nostra apps. You might hear them called clients sometimes, but I think

873
00:58:45.230 --> 00:58:48.850
probably we should be calling them apps, but you can call them whatever the hell you wanna call them,

874
00:58:49.310 --> 00:58:52.770
because it's more obvious to people. But Ditto is one of them.

875
00:58:53.070 --> 00:58:53.470
And,

876
00:58:54.665 --> 00:59:05.005
the may the main developer of that project is a is a man that goes by the name of Alex Gleason. He's an absolute legend among men. Amazing. It's great to have him. He's a former,

877
00:59:05.465 --> 00:59:06.925
Truth Social CTO.

878
00:59:07.865 --> 00:59:08.365
Trump's,

879
00:59:10.140 --> 00:59:11.599
quasi social media.

880
00:59:13.020 --> 00:59:17.660
And so on on that front so I have 2 questions for you, and we'll start with the first one.

881
00:59:19.260 --> 00:59:24.480
Do you not see it like, is there do we not have a bootstrapping issue of, like, people creating an account,

882
00:59:24.895 --> 00:59:31.315
but then not really using it? You know, like, they, like, they do their first post. They're like, Nostra's awesome, and then we zap them a bunch.

883
00:59:31.775 --> 00:59:40.990
And then we don't see them for months. Is that a problem? I is that something you saw early days of Twitter? Or Oh, yeah. It's it's definitely a problem. I mean, I think the first big problem is just discovery,

884
00:59:41.530 --> 00:59:51.309
finding who is interesting to follow. And, unfortunately, most of the clients right now are giving people that are not relevant to them at all. And you see a bunch of content that's overwhelmingly

885
00:59:51.770 --> 00:59:57.895
not relevant, and then you have to figure out how to unfollow these people. And it's just work, and I don't wanna do more work. Right?

886
00:59:58.515 --> 01:00:04.375
So I I think blues Blue Sky actually did something really good here, which is the starter packs, which is,

887
01:00:05.315 --> 01:00:07.155
I think, brought from an from another,

888
01:00:07.555 --> 01:00:08.935
another platform. But

889
01:00:10.160 --> 01:00:12.420
here's a here's a pack of of,

890
01:00:13.120 --> 01:00:15.780
accounts you can follow if you're if you have these interest.

891
01:00:16.080 --> 01:00:18.420
But, again, I think, like, communities, Ditto,

892
01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:20.820
is probably the holy grail.

893
01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:23.620
And if you have a tight community

894
01:00:24.080 --> 01:00:25.780
of, like, your friends or your locale,

895
01:00:27.045 --> 01:00:27.545
then,

896
01:00:28.405 --> 01:00:30.265
it's just it's much easier

897
01:00:31.925 --> 01:00:33.625
to wanna converse every day.

898
01:00:34.165 --> 01:00:39.065
Because what what really made Twitter work was not broadcasting to the world. It was the replies.

899
01:00:39.730 --> 01:00:40.790
It was a conversation.

900
01:00:41.490 --> 01:00:49.510
And if I see content that's not relevant to me, I'm not gonna reply to it. If I see content that I chose to get into because it's like, oh, football or, like,

901
01:00:50.130 --> 01:00:54.925
surfing or whatnot, I'm a reply to it. And that that keeps me going and that keeps me,

902
01:00:55.305 --> 01:01:00.045
that I I stay, especially if I'm getting money for it and I can send money.

903
01:01:01.625 --> 01:01:05.805
So, like, it's solvable. It's just like, how do you get to conversation, not just posting?

904
01:01:06.470 --> 01:01:11.049
Yeah. I mean, I love the starter pack idea from Blue Sky. I think a bunch of apps will integrate that.

905
01:01:12.309 --> 01:01:15.049
Basically, the idea is, like, you're inviting a friend to join,

906
01:01:15.510 --> 01:01:19.289
and you're you're basically in charge of getting them started. You're in charge of,

907
01:01:19.910 --> 01:01:21.200
giving them almost a,

908
01:01:21.915 --> 01:01:22.415
a

909
01:01:23.435 --> 01:01:27.855
personalized experience on their on their first join, on their first their first,

910
01:01:28.395 --> 01:01:28.895
interaction

911
01:01:29.595 --> 01:01:33.135
with the protocol. I see in the comments someone called out Oliver's,

912
01:01:34.075 --> 01:01:35.375
NIP 5. It's primal.net/oliverkleg

913
01:01:37.260 --> 01:01:38.160
with 2

914
01:01:38.859 --> 01:01:39.359
g's.

915
01:01:40.060 --> 01:01:42.640
Yeah. So he's a DJ and a oil painter,

916
01:01:43.100 --> 01:01:46.640
and he's been putting up a bunch of his works with some quotes and, like, the

917
01:01:47.020 --> 01:01:56.665
people are digging it. But, like, it it just takes one of those stones to roll and and, like, more and more people come. And I don't know why, but, there's a moment right now in these past few weeks where

918
01:01:56.965 --> 01:01:59.385
we're seeing a lot more people who are not Bitcoin

919
01:01:59.925 --> 01:02:00.425
adjacent.

920
01:02:01.445 --> 01:02:03.365
They feel more art adjacent or,

921
01:02:05.125 --> 01:02:07.410
like, willing to to try things out,

922
01:02:08.450 --> 01:02:16.630
because everything happening with TikTok and other things. And if they find community, they'll stick. If they don't, then they'll they'll bounce. Yeah. It feels like real momentum.

923
01:02:17.569 --> 01:02:18.770
What are your thoughts on

924
01:02:19.905 --> 01:02:25.605
like, I feel like Twitter didn't have this problem as much because of where the ecosystem was. The Internet was so young.

925
01:02:26.465 --> 01:02:28.085
Like, what are your thoughts on

926
01:02:28.625 --> 01:02:33.525
just, like, battling established network effects? Like, WhatsApp absolutely dominates. Facebook

927
01:02:34.080 --> 01:02:36.580
completely dominates in terms of network effects.

928
01:02:37.600 --> 01:02:38.000
Is that

929
01:02:39.120 --> 01:02:42.580
is there a deliberate way to try and break that, or

930
01:02:43.120 --> 01:02:45.380
is it just a slow grind? New utility.

931
01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:48.340
I mean, like, we were battling Facebook. Like, Facebook

932
01:02:48.720 --> 01:02:49.220
was

933
01:02:50.255 --> 01:02:51.475
was the evil enemy

934
01:02:53.375 --> 01:02:53.875
because

935
01:02:54.335 --> 01:02:56.835
they had this strategy of, like, you go into schools,

936
01:02:57.215 --> 01:03:02.995
everyone on the school gets on, then you go to cities, everyone in the city gets on, then the world, and, like, it worked.

937
01:03:04.260 --> 01:03:07.720
And they had a ton of utility that we didn't have. We just had one piece,

938
01:03:08.180 --> 01:03:09.320
which was broadcast.

939
01:03:10.740 --> 01:03:13.000
But the broadcast was so fast,

940
01:03:13.300 --> 01:03:16.280
and it was so simple. And the 140 characters

941
01:03:16.660 --> 01:03:19.160
made everything very digestible instantly

942
01:03:19.515 --> 01:03:21.295
so you could actually see news.

943
01:03:21.595 --> 01:03:25.135
And the thing that really turned the corner for us was trends and search.

944
01:03:25.674 --> 01:03:28.974
I could search any topic, and I could see what was happening in the world.

945
01:03:29.355 --> 01:03:43.119
And I could type fire, and I could see all the fires happening in the world. I could see the fire was trending. Oh, that's something I didn't know about. I didn't know how to search, but now I know that this person died, or this is on fire, or there's an earthquake. Like, the earthquake moments were

946
01:03:43.420 --> 01:03:46.560
huge for Twitter. New Year's Eve was huge for Twitter because it's just

947
01:03:46.895 --> 01:03:48.035
fast, brief,

948
01:03:48.494 --> 01:03:48.994
digestible.

949
01:03:50.015 --> 01:04:00.675
Like, it really focused on speed. Speed was our number one feature. And Facebook was this, like, big clunky thing that had a 100 features, and we were able to break breakthrough, but obviously not to their scale

950
01:04:01.119 --> 01:04:02.260
because not everyone

951
01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:09.700
not everyone had someone something to broadcast. Right? And our problem was that tweets would be shown on TV

952
01:04:10.160 --> 01:04:17.645
or they'd be shown in newspapers, and people are like, I see it on TV. Why do I need to download the app? Like, I already get the Twitter news. Like, it's it's there.

953
01:04:17.945 --> 01:04:21.965
So our reach was immense, but our usage was very, very small

954
01:04:22.425 --> 01:04:22.925
because

955
01:04:23.625 --> 01:04:25.725
not as many people had the the reasoning,

956
01:04:26.665 --> 01:04:29.085
which is why we shifted more and more towards conversation

957
01:04:30.339 --> 01:04:33.319
because everyone can have a chat every day. Everyone can have a conversation.

958
01:04:33.859 --> 01:04:41.480
And we really highlighted replies, and and that's what Twitter is. That's what x is today. It's it's really good around conversation and,

959
01:04:42.420 --> 01:04:44.599
encouraging more more replies, more conversation.

960
01:04:46.655 --> 01:04:49.315
I mean, I don't know how active you are in x nowadays,

961
01:04:49.775 --> 01:04:51.395
but do you not see, like

962
01:04:51.695 --> 01:04:59.075
I for me, it's like it seems like it's gone back towards this, like, broadcast first type of like, it used to have so much

963
01:04:59.670 --> 01:05:00.890
productive discussion.

964
01:05:01.829 --> 01:05:03.450
Now I feel like it's just

965
01:05:04.230 --> 01:05:06.089
influencers shouting into the world

966
01:05:06.869 --> 01:05:08.170
and, like, PR agencies.

967
01:05:08.710 --> 01:05:11.849
I think the the payment stuff definitely changed something.

968
01:05:12.965 --> 01:05:14.745
Like paying people for posting

969
01:05:15.045 --> 01:05:18.585
piece of the ad revenue cut. It does incentivize a certain thing.

970
01:05:18.885 --> 01:05:19.365
And then,

971
01:05:20.405 --> 01:05:21.865
like, a a lot of the

972
01:05:22.325 --> 01:05:24.905
indicators of, like, how many replies or replies

973
01:05:25.285 --> 01:05:27.545
in line were taken out of the main timeline.

974
01:05:27.900 --> 01:05:31.279
So you couldn't see that, oh, this this is a tweet that actually has,

975
01:05:32.059 --> 01:05:39.839
a bunch of interesting replies. The thing our algorithm used to do was it would promote one of the the replies as well to the top of the timeline.

976
01:05:40.140 --> 01:05:42.480
Whereas today, I think it's only top level tweets.

977
01:05:43.035 --> 01:05:44.015
So a lot of

978
01:05:44.395 --> 01:05:47.535
the understanding that you would have to, like, there's conversation underneath

979
01:05:47.835 --> 01:05:48.655
has disappeared.

980
01:05:49.115 --> 01:05:50.575
And I think that's a mistake,

981
01:05:51.275 --> 01:05:54.095
for for what it wants to be in terms of usage. But,

982
01:05:55.809 --> 01:05:56.390
you know,

983
01:05:57.809 --> 01:05:59.109
it it is what it is.

984
01:05:59.970 --> 01:06:00.470
So

985
01:06:00.770 --> 01:06:03.750
it is what it is. I'll make that the quote of the episode.

986
01:06:05.569 --> 01:06:06.069
The

987
01:06:08.295 --> 01:06:08.795
with

988
01:06:09.335 --> 01:06:09.835
with

989
01:06:13.895 --> 01:06:16.155
with with Noster, I kind of see

990
01:06:16.934 --> 01:06:20.714
it's interesting. Right? Because it's the first time that a lot of especially young people,

991
01:06:22.120 --> 01:06:25.180
young people have been exposed to some kind of social

992
01:06:25.800 --> 01:06:28.780
app, social protocol, whatever you wanna call it,

993
01:06:29.720 --> 01:06:31.180
where there is no algorithm.

994
01:06:31.560 --> 01:06:35.020
And I I think a lot of people find that refreshing that they have,

995
01:06:35.555 --> 01:06:49.895
you know, what it used to be was the standard. Right? This this idea that you're just basically getting a chronological feed of people you follow, which is what we saw, you know, in the early days of Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. And, of course, they all moved to this algorithmic first

996
01:06:50.435 --> 01:06:50.935
approach.

997
01:06:52.510 --> 01:06:53.890
And it's I think it's

998
01:06:54.349 --> 01:06:58.049
fundamental that you have the ability to have no algorithm.

999
01:06:59.309 --> 01:07:01.250
But I think part of the reason why

1000
01:07:01.789 --> 01:07:10.085
Nasser has been rough around the edges for newcomers right now is because you don't have the choice of adding an algorithm if you want to in terms of discovery, in terms of

1001
01:07:11.105 --> 01:07:12.805
seeing content that you might,

1002
01:07:13.185 --> 01:07:18.005
enjoy or wanna interact with. How do you think about algorithms in Nostr? Well, I mean,

1003
01:07:18.545 --> 01:07:20.885
Twitter took a different path. So, like, in in

1004
01:07:22.370 --> 01:07:25.030
Facebook, it was all about the algorithm and just, like,

1005
01:07:25.650 --> 01:07:27.750
gaming as much engagement as possible.

1006
01:07:28.290 --> 01:07:33.510
What we decided to do is, like, you're on you're on the app, and then you go away,

1007
01:07:34.275 --> 01:07:38.454
and then you come back to it, let's say, after, like, 3 hours, and you're following, like, a 1000 people.

1008
01:07:39.075 --> 01:07:54.309
When you have to go reverse through a 1000 people to see, like, what you missed, like, it's it's what Nasser is today. Right. It's it's it's impossible to do. You can't do that. It just takes time, and it takes time away from what else you could be doing. So our first algorithm was called while you're away,

1009
01:07:54.769 --> 01:08:06.244
and it would try to figure out, like, what you are most likely to engage with in terms of, like, what you tend to look at more or you you reply to. And it would put 8 of those tweets at the top. And then

1010
01:08:06.865 --> 01:08:10.805
underneath, it's the the full reverse con. And we kept that for 2 years.

1011
01:08:11.505 --> 01:08:13.444
And then we expanded that,

1012
01:08:14.065 --> 01:08:20.804
and we we allowed you to turn off the algorithm. So you can say, I want the algorithm. I want the for you. That's what

1013
01:08:21.240 --> 01:08:27.740
for you for you is or following. Right? That's what it is today. It's the same thing. That that hasn't changed at all.

1014
01:08:28.440 --> 01:08:32.380
And the reason we did that is we we realized Twitter was, like, news and conversation,

1015
01:08:33.080 --> 01:08:36.975
and you just can't keep up with all of it. So we needed some help

1016
01:08:37.455 --> 01:08:43.715
to, like, get you to, like, here's what you missed. Here's what's trending. Here's those things. So it's a it's just a question of, like, what

1017
01:08:44.175 --> 01:08:46.595
what a particular client wants to be,

1018
01:08:47.455 --> 01:09:05.804
and what use case it's trying to solve. Is it trying to solve for the use for the news use case, the community use case? And the beautiful thing about Nasr is it can solve for all those, and they can all be different apps. But, like, if we solve for communities, it'd be a completely different algorithm than it would be for news. And right now, you have something like Primal, which has

1019
01:09:06.264 --> 01:09:15.165
a trending 24 hour, a MoZap 24 hour, and then the fire hose. And that feels more like a news use case,

1020
01:09:15.750 --> 01:09:19.450
but we're not getting the news content on the network. So it's more like

1021
01:09:19.990 --> 01:09:21.290
the news of your friends

1022
01:09:22.710 --> 01:09:29.370
or Matt Odell at the top of it every day saying live free or die. It's not really news. Do you want me to stop saying good morning?

1023
01:09:29.795 --> 01:09:42.935
No. Should I stop saying good morning? This this is a content problem. Right? We need Nastr needs all the content on it. It needs all the content. Like and we need to, like whatever that algorithm is, the trending 24 is looking for established accounts,

1024
01:09:43.270 --> 01:09:55.050
and it's not trying to find, like, the trending stuff, the actual trending stuff. And if we tried to find the actual trending stuff of all the Mastodon post, of all the blue tie the the blue sky fire hose

1025
01:09:55.510 --> 01:10:01.375
of anything we can scrape from the web, then it would be a news destination. But it's a question, do you want it to be?

1026
01:10:01.755 --> 01:10:13.880
I think so. Like, I think Nasser can be the greatest corpus of human conversation and thought ever ever created because of the principles of it, but, like, we need to build that. Right? But don't do we not bootstrap that with good mornings?

1027
01:10:14.260 --> 01:10:15.160
Like, is that

1028
01:10:15.620 --> 01:10:17.460
I mean, that we've got enough of that. Like,

1029
01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:25.480
but I mean You we're not gonna there's no escape philosophy from good good morning. It's too heavy. This is something with I battle with every morning.

1030
01:10:26.325 --> 01:10:33.945
You know? Because I know why you say good morning. You're trying to remind yourself. I no. I know I know there's a subset. I I know there's a subset

1031
01:10:35.045 --> 01:10:45.550
of people that legit resent me. Like, it builds up in their head every morning that they see me on the top of trending saying good morning and posting a music video. I'm one of those people.

1032
01:10:46.170 --> 01:10:46.670
Unfortunately,

1033
01:10:47.450 --> 01:10:48.910
our friendship perseveres.

1034
01:10:50.570 --> 01:10:51.950
But then at the same time,

1035
01:10:52.535 --> 01:11:13.280
you know, there's a lot of people that wanna say good morning back. Right? Otherwise, it wouldn't be on the top of trending in the first place. Yeah. So it's So it's it's this is one of my inner struggles that I have to deal with every morning. Yeah. But that's more of a community use case. Right? Like, you say good morning to your neighbors and your friends and whatnot. And, like, if we want it to be that, it's going to be as as big as a friend circle.

1036
01:11:14.219 --> 01:11:17.440
If you want it to be global, it has to be news. It has to be something

1037
01:11:18.460 --> 01:11:20.400
that's actually global relevant. So

1038
01:11:21.365 --> 01:11:23.145
one thing you could do, for instance,

1039
01:11:23.445 --> 01:11:27.705
is instead of saying good morning every day and putting a music video and being lazy about it,

1040
01:11:28.325 --> 01:11:49.985
you could you could opine on the news of the day. You could take an article that's breaking somewhere, and you could actually opine on it. And then people will have a conversation about it, and you keep engaged in that conversation, and then it turns into a different thing. I take a lot of time and care in picking which music video I do. Realize that, but it's a friend's group. It's a group chat then. It's just like a friend's group chat, and it's gonna stay like that forever.

1041
01:11:50.445 --> 01:11:58.145
So you want me to opine on the news every morning? I mean, you're a podcaster influencer, and and I just be opine on the news every morning. I don't see you doing it.

1042
01:11:58.605 --> 01:12:13.180
I've been I've been busy. I'm going I'll I'll get back to it. Do you not even care? I do care. I'll get back to it. I'll get back to it. But, like, be the change you wanna see in the world. If you want that content, you have to make that content. Right? I mean, part of it is, like, we need to we need to see algorithms that

1043
01:12:13.905 --> 01:12:22.245
do different things and people can choose them so that I'm not on the top. We have those today. We have those today. Don't blame the algorithm for your own, like, lack of

1044
01:12:22.865 --> 01:12:24.885
desire to to make this work.

1045
01:12:25.530 --> 01:12:31.849
It's as much a development problem as it is a content problem, and you're, like, you're bringing up the rear on the content. I just

1046
01:12:33.530 --> 01:12:34.809
I try, and,

1047
01:12:35.210 --> 01:12:42.235
I'm not trying to I'm not trying to report the news every morning, but I'll You don't need to report the news. But good morning. Where do I get the news from?

1048
01:12:42.855 --> 01:12:46.315
Everywhere. Commenting on You see the news everywhere. You see it you see it.

1049
01:12:47.735 --> 01:12:55.114
Okay. So why don't you if you send me a news story every morning What are your thoughts on trip Trump coin? That's newsworthy. No?

1050
01:12:56.660 --> 01:13:03.800
Like, detailed analysis like you do on your podcast. Detailed analysis. I mean, you should stay on Stacks ads and not buy Trump coin.

1051
01:13:05.380 --> 01:13:08.920
I mean, that's my analysis. People why. I will say that

1052
01:13:10.785 --> 01:13:12.005
I had no idea

1053
01:13:12.945 --> 01:13:13.445
that

1054
01:13:14.545 --> 01:13:15.925
Phantom Wallet existed,

1055
01:13:16.305 --> 01:13:20.325
which is, like, the main way these people interact with Solana meme coins. Moonshot

1056
01:13:21.105 --> 01:13:32.890
is another one. Is Moonshot a different app? Mhmm. The UX They're all at the top of the App Store right now. The UX for being a day trader or, like, just a degen swapping this stuff is they really nailed it. It's, like, very clean.

1057
01:13:34.110 --> 01:13:34.610
Yeah.

1058
01:13:35.830 --> 01:13:38.570
So it makes me feel like a boomer. Like, I was completely

1059
01:13:39.915 --> 01:13:46.335
Yeah. But the I mean, this is Not necessarily caught off guard by the existence of the coin. Like, I think that was very on brand.

1060
01:13:48.235 --> 01:13:50.974
You know, a few days before your presidency to

1061
01:13:51.755 --> 01:13:53.295
to launch a cash grab.

1062
01:13:53.700 --> 01:13:54.140
But,

1063
01:13:54.580 --> 01:14:00.360
the the the way it was done was I was completely unfamiliar with. This is a gap both in Bitcoin and Nostra,

1064
01:14:00.820 --> 01:14:02.600
and the gap is design.

1065
01:14:03.060 --> 01:14:10.305
Like, these people know, like, how to make something fast and the interface fast such that you know how to use it right away. And the problem

1066
01:14:10.925 --> 01:14:26.420
in historically with Bitcoin and with Nastr is it's been engineering led, and a lot of these engineers do not know how to partner with designers. Like, they build for engineers. They build for other engineers, which is great. It's fine, but, like, we're not going to escape velocity. We're not gonna reach the horizon, like, with with that mindset

1067
01:14:26.800 --> 01:14:28.660
and with that approach. We just won't.

1068
01:14:29.200 --> 01:14:32.100
They had it has to be cohesive. It has to be focused on speed,

1069
01:14:32.480 --> 01:14:37.060
and you have to have a sense of, like, who you're actually trying to serve. Like, are you trying to serve

1070
01:14:37.520 --> 01:14:38.020
everyone,

1071
01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:42.085
which dictates a certain set of features? Are you trying to serve

1072
01:14:42.465 --> 01:14:45.265
pro users? Are you trying to serve engineers? Like

1073
01:14:46.145 --> 01:14:50.805
and and that that clarity, you can start one way, and then you end up always to the mainstream

1074
01:14:51.425 --> 01:15:02.630
or maybe a smaller audience. But you gotta you gotta pick a lane and then just, like, go for it and just, like, iterate and iterate. And I haven't seen that discipline within Nasr or or Bitcoin,

1075
01:15:02.930 --> 01:15:05.350
predominantly. There's exceptions, of course,

1076
01:15:07.385 --> 01:15:08.925
but it definitely holds us back.

1077
01:15:09.545 --> 01:15:13.165
I mean, I think you guys nailed the UX on Bitkey on the Bitcoin side.

1078
01:15:13.545 --> 01:15:18.285
I think we nailed it on Cash App first. Like, it was the fastest, easiest way to buy money. It worse.

1079
01:15:20.850 --> 01:15:31.110
Yeah. I mean, this is the the tale of companies. Like, you make something simple, and then it gets worse and worse as you add things and you don't call, you don't cut, you don't edit. We're in the process of editing. It's gonna get better.

1080
01:15:31.969 --> 01:15:38.225
But Big Key is a is a you know, it's a new one. Right? So it'll eventually have that thing where it gets

1081
01:15:38.605 --> 01:15:40.545
barnacles and you have to edit.

1082
01:15:41.805 --> 01:15:48.865
There's just like a desire to change. Right? So it's like constant, like Desire to add. And the ad doesn't come with, like, what are what are we subtracting?

1083
01:15:49.325 --> 01:15:55.190
You know? Like, what are we refactoring? That's it's just common, and it's no intention. Like, let's make our Bitcoin

1084
01:15:55.730 --> 01:16:05.215
purchasing platform worse. No. It's like, let's add this thing and then add this thing and, oh, now where does the Bitcoin thing fit? And if we add this thing, then there's a dependency on that,

1085
01:16:05.594 --> 01:16:08.975
and then it's like a maze in the labyrinth, and we have to refactor everything.

1086
01:16:11.275 --> 01:16:14.610
I'm sure you hear this from your your companies that you VC over.

1087
01:16:16.050 --> 01:16:26.469
Is that a verb, VC over? Yeah. I mean, you can take this conversation. You can replay it tonight. You can go to your your companies, and you can say, I'm here to help. I got some I got some advice. Designer.

1088
01:16:27.969 --> 01:16:30.310
Do you think do you think all VCs are bad

1089
01:16:31.585 --> 01:16:38.324
I think I think the gravity is towards yes, and you have to resist the gravity to be good. And there are some good ones,

1090
01:16:39.344 --> 01:16:42.485
but the gravity is towards yes. Okay. I agree with that.

1091
01:16:43.264 --> 01:17:03.125
Honestly I think you're a good one, just to be clear. You think Then there are others that are good ones. It means a lot. It means a lot. I mean, I've never taken money from you, so I don't know how good you are because that's the that's the ultimate lit litmus test, but I hear good things. Well, we have a couple of our founders in the live chat. So if they're Okay. We're watching the sunset, and do we think you'll see a green flash?

1092
01:17:03.505 --> 01:17:08.165
Tiny one. Tiny green flash on the sunset. This is meant to be. There we go.

1093
01:17:09.264 --> 01:17:10.165
It's a moment.

1094
01:17:10.625 --> 01:17:11.125
Honestly,

1095
01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:13.940
since I'm not a professional podcaster,

1096
01:17:14.559 --> 01:17:17.059
I'm still hung up on you shitting on my good mornings.

1097
01:17:18.079 --> 01:17:29.935
It's always the people who say, I'm not this. I'm not this. I'm not this. I'm not this. I'm That actually are those people. All the freaks know how much sound quality issues I have on a episode by episode basis. So how could I be

1098
01:17:30.875 --> 01:17:32.175
a professional podcaster?

1099
01:17:32.875 --> 01:17:35.375
No. You're an amateur podcaster, but you're a podcaster.

1100
01:17:35.755 --> 01:17:37.560
Amateur podcaster. I'll take that.

1101
01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:46.280
You know, we're day 21 of the year. I've done 21 music videos every day. Yeah. You know I'm a man of routine. Like, I'm,

1102
01:17:47.480 --> 01:17:53.804
this is how I operate. Are you break should I break music? Content for, like, people who love music videos?

1103
01:17:54.905 --> 01:17:56.284
I'm just setting the vibe,

1104
01:17:56.744 --> 01:18:13.219
you know? I know. But it's a fun vibe. I like listening to music. So your job is 1 post a day, and it comes with a GM and a a video and and No. That's my favorite one. Else has to create the other content. No. That's my favorite one. You other plebs, you have create the other content. I create That makes this thing go. Dude, I create so much Nostr content

1105
01:18:13.520 --> 01:18:19.140
that people's main a lot of people's main negative view of Nostr is that, like, it's too much Odell.

1106
01:18:19.920 --> 01:18:24.375
Well, I think that's also the algorithm. The algorithm needs to be rebalanced and retrained, and also, like,

1107
01:18:25.255 --> 01:18:35.595
it's it's gotta decide, like, what it wants to highlight. Is it highlighting news, or is it highlighting, like, friends? Because right now, it's highlighting friends, and it's highlighting the the Nostril, like, big accounts.

1108
01:18:36.215 --> 01:18:37.995
And, like, it's just not

1109
01:18:38.615 --> 01:18:40.155
we need more we need more.

1110
01:18:41.139 --> 01:18:43.960
It is it has been highlighting some new folks, which,

1111
01:18:44.340 --> 01:18:45.320
I think is great.

1112
01:18:48.659 --> 01:18:53.219
No. Just Rob Hamilton's one of, 1031 supported founder, and he's,

1113
01:18:54.260 --> 01:19:17.690
He's happy? Well, he zapped us 10,000 sats and said, I don't know if Matt is a great VC. He's on a beach podcasting instead of creating shareholder value for me crying about how his GM posts aren't bringing about hypnosters. You're such a great VC. He's giving money back. That's always a bad sign. That's always a bad sign. Why is that a bad sign? They're giving the money back. They're like, we don't need the money in it. We don't want doing this anymore. The best KPI. He's in he's in the chat zapping.

1114
01:19:18.869 --> 01:19:20.889
What else are we gonna talk about? I,

1115
01:19:23.515 --> 01:19:26.335
did you see did you have you watched Mark Zuckerberg's,

1116
01:19:27.275 --> 01:19:30.175
Joe Rogan yet? I haven't watched it. Tell me about it.

1117
01:19:31.195 --> 01:19:39.940
Are you you guys are on a I've seen clips, of course. You guys are on a first name basis. Right? So I'll just call him Mark? We were on a first name basis. I went over to his house. Like, we used

1118
01:19:40.320 --> 01:19:43.860
to we used to talk, but that that fell that fell apart.

1119
01:19:45.280 --> 01:19:46.820
So, I mean, it seems like

1120
01:19:47.920 --> 01:19:49.860
Elon and him right now are the juggernauts

1121
01:19:50.505 --> 01:19:57.245
in big social and big tech social, more so more so so Mark in Facebook. Right? Like, in terms of billions of users.

1122
01:19:58.745 --> 01:20:01.565
In terms of user numbers, significantly more,

1123
01:20:01.945 --> 01:20:03.005
especially globally.

1124
01:20:04.110 --> 01:20:05.409
And then you have TikTok,

1125
01:20:06.350 --> 01:20:07.650
which it seems like

1126
01:20:08.989 --> 01:20:15.010
will probably be owned by one of them in, like, 6 months or at least, like, 50% owned by one of them in 6 months. Yep.

1127
01:20:16.635 --> 01:20:19.935
So I guess before we go there, what is your opinion on the TikTok ban

1128
01:20:20.395 --> 01:20:21.615
since I brought up TikTok?

1129
01:20:24.955 --> 01:20:25.855
I think it's

1130
01:20:28.050 --> 01:20:31.909
I think it's stupid. I think it's it's it probably has other agendas

1131
01:20:32.290 --> 01:20:35.110
that have nothing to do with China trying to program our kids.

1132
01:20:37.090 --> 01:20:41.590
I think I think they I think people in the US want more control over the content

1133
01:20:42.050 --> 01:20:43.349
that goes on in TikTok.

1134
01:20:44.905 --> 01:20:50.125
And it just was the one that they had no control over because it was It's China. China led. Yes.

1135
01:20:51.145 --> 01:20:54.045
Which is funny because also in the US companies, it's like,

1136
01:20:54.425 --> 01:20:57.645
we don't want any control over the content. Wink wink.

1137
01:20:58.105 --> 01:20:58.605
But

1138
01:20:59.659 --> 01:21:00.639
they want the control.

1139
01:21:01.340 --> 01:21:06.320
Yeah. I mean, so that's so that was the majority of of Mark's conversation on Rogan

1140
01:21:07.260 --> 01:21:08.540
was that he basically said

1141
01:21:09.980 --> 01:21:12.239
I mean, to summarize a 3 hour conversation.

1142
01:21:13.665 --> 01:21:17.365
Well, first of all, he said they're no longer gonna have tampons in the men's bathroom,

1143
01:21:17.705 --> 01:21:18.205
but,

1144
01:21:19.265 --> 01:21:20.485
he also said,

1145
01:21:21.505 --> 01:21:25.365
that he is laser focused on being pro free speech,

1146
01:21:25.710 --> 01:21:26.610
reducing censorship,

1147
01:21:27.230 --> 01:21:29.410
and that the majority of the pressure

1148
01:21:30.030 --> 01:21:30.530
was

1149
01:21:31.390 --> 01:21:34.130
the Biden administration effectively and the previous

1150
01:21:35.150 --> 01:21:36.850
the pre the previous government,

1151
01:21:37.630 --> 01:21:40.290
and that under Trump that they're gonna be much more

1152
01:21:40.975 --> 01:21:43.235
free speech oriented. Elon has obviously

1153
01:21:43.775 --> 01:21:46.355
signaled similar before Mark did that.

1154
01:21:48.015 --> 01:21:49.475
How do you think about that?

1155
01:21:50.655 --> 01:21:51.315
I think,

1156
01:21:52.815 --> 01:21:57.980
number 1, like, Facebook tends and Meta and Mark, in my view, tend to blow with the wind.

1157
01:21:58.360 --> 01:21:59.900
I don't think the company has

1158
01:22:00.280 --> 01:22:02.700
principles. I think they do whatever it takes that

1159
01:22:03.080 --> 01:22:08.300
add advantages them themselves in the moment, and they'll switch principles completely

1160
01:22:08.680 --> 01:22:10.460
based on what's currently happening

1161
01:22:10.845 --> 01:22:11.665
in the world.

1162
01:22:11.965 --> 01:22:14.465
And I've seen that at least 4 times now,

1163
01:22:15.565 --> 01:22:18.465
specifically with free speech, but with other things as well,

1164
01:22:18.845 --> 01:22:19.825
AI and

1165
01:22:20.205 --> 01:22:21.425
the the the metaverse.

1166
01:22:22.045 --> 01:22:25.905
And, you you know, you just look at the their their stances, and

1167
01:22:26.870 --> 01:22:40.410
they just they're not a company with strong stances that last because they don't believe in them. They believe in building the biggest, greatest thing ever. And, again, like, I respect that, but I don't respect that. You know?

1168
01:22:41.645 --> 01:22:42.945
And then number 2,

1169
01:22:43.325 --> 01:22:43.825
like,

1170
01:22:45.085 --> 01:22:47.265
the extent of everything that we got

1171
01:22:47.725 --> 01:22:48.225
from

1172
01:22:48.765 --> 01:22:54.065
the Biden administration is in the Twitter files. We got the same from the Trump the Trump administration.

1173
01:22:54.980 --> 01:22:55.480
And

1174
01:22:56.500 --> 01:23:00.440
I've seen clips where Mark has characterized it as yelling and, like,

1175
01:23:01.219 --> 01:23:08.360
I don't know. They these are not things that like, we still made decisions based on those inputs. We were not told what to do. We made decisions,

1176
01:23:08.765 --> 01:23:12.385
and they can make decisions as well. So to put all of it on the Biden administration

1177
01:23:12.765 --> 01:23:13.745
or any administration,

1178
01:23:14.285 --> 01:23:15.185
I think is

1179
01:23:15.965 --> 01:23:17.345
I think is playing a game.

1180
01:23:17.965 --> 01:23:26.880
And I I think it's rewriting history a bit because I was also there. The thing that I worried more about is not the the Biden administration. It's the advertisers.

1181
01:23:27.340 --> 01:23:32.159
Mark didn't have this worry because every advertiser needed to advertise on

1182
01:23:32.460 --> 01:23:36.400
Meta, and every advertiser needs to advertise on Google.

1183
01:23:36.875 --> 01:23:38.895
So they don't have to have

1184
01:23:39.355 --> 01:23:41.215
policy conversations with their advertisers.

1185
01:23:41.595 --> 01:23:47.055
Whereas Twitter, because they're small and you didn't need to advertise on on Twitter, it was, like, this extra budget.

1186
01:23:47.995 --> 01:23:48.975
They could change

1187
01:23:49.950 --> 01:23:57.730
they they could chain they could say, like, we're removing our whole brands like Unilever. We're removing our whole brand. And you could you saw this play out with with Elon.

1188
01:23:59.230 --> 01:24:01.490
The the fortunate thing is he was private.

1189
01:24:02.030 --> 01:24:04.450
The unfortunate thing is if you have that play out

1190
01:24:04.825 --> 01:24:05.965
as a public company,

1191
01:24:06.265 --> 01:24:18.445
then if the advertisers leave, Wall Street sees it and they sell the stock. And when the stock is sold, it goes down in value. When it goes down in value, you lose employees because they no longer believe it's going up, and then you lose the company.

1192
01:24:18.770 --> 01:24:25.910
So your hand is forced not by the government. I never thought our hand is forced by the government. Our hand was definitely forced by advertisers

1193
01:24:26.450 --> 01:24:29.590
and our various our our our very business model.

1194
01:24:29.970 --> 01:24:30.470
And,

1195
01:24:30.875 --> 01:24:32.554
like, we we just had to do things,

1196
01:24:34.475 --> 01:24:35.675
that made sure that,

1197
01:24:36.715 --> 01:24:41.054
that entity was more or less happy. Now we did other things as well,

1198
01:24:41.435 --> 01:24:44.415
and we certainly went too far in many, many places.

1199
01:24:44.820 --> 01:24:49.560
I fully admit that, and I've tweeted about it and said it and writ written about it.

1200
01:24:50.099 --> 01:24:50.599
But

1201
01:24:51.460 --> 01:24:52.760
as a public company,

1202
01:24:53.300 --> 01:24:56.040
this is what I ultimately realized. You can't have a CEO

1203
01:24:56.980 --> 01:25:02.445
over these over these things. You can't. Like, no matter how good this person is,

1204
01:25:02.825 --> 01:25:03.805
he or she

1205
01:25:04.345 --> 01:25:05.565
can be called to Congress,

1206
01:25:06.025 --> 01:25:06.925
can be corrupted,

1207
01:25:07.225 --> 01:25:09.325
can be assassinated, can be kidnapped,

1208
01:25:10.265 --> 01:25:14.845
can be taken in a closed room and told to do something, not tell anyone about it.

1209
01:25:15.470 --> 01:25:18.930
That's the reality. So if you choose to be on these platforms,

1210
01:25:19.390 --> 01:25:21.250
you have to have that in your calculus.

1211
01:25:21.630 --> 01:25:27.410
And they may align with you today, but they're probably not gonna align with you tomorrow. And that's the risk you're taking.

1212
01:25:27.795 --> 01:25:31.175
The benefit of Noster is that that can't exist.

1213
01:25:32.595 --> 01:25:43.200
No one can take it down. No one can shut it down, and no one can move it in a a particular way that benefits only them. And that's that's what I realized. That's why that's why I left.

1214
01:25:44.220 --> 01:25:45.040
Well said.

1215
01:25:46.540 --> 01:25:47.200
I wanna

1216
01:25:47.820 --> 01:25:55.040
dig deeper in that, but I also wanna say what's happening in the live chat right now is a perfect example of the problem with modern social media.

1217
01:25:55.415 --> 01:25:58.395
So we have people saying full pardon in all caps

1218
01:25:58.855 --> 01:26:01.195
for Ross, which should be absolutely massive,

1219
01:26:01.815 --> 01:26:12.480
and not a single link to a source. You see this? It's it's, like, classic. I don't know if Nostra fixes that. I don't know if we can reward it in certain ways. Maybe Zaps help fix that.

1220
01:26:13.260 --> 01:26:22.375
But if anything But this is good because this is a vibe this is a vibe we would see on Twitter too. Like, you would have a source, but you need some sort of algorithm to bubble up. Okay. Where is

1221
01:26:22.915 --> 01:26:31.895
where is this source information? Where where is this actually happening? Yeah. One of you freaks, if you have an actual source besides David Bailey saying a full pardon would be awesome,

1222
01:26:32.675 --> 01:26:36.330
please link it in in the comments. There might be one right there.

1223
01:26:37.210 --> 01:26:38.750
Oh, look. A primal link.

1224
01:26:39.850 --> 01:26:41.550
But I wanna talk about the I wanna

1225
01:26:42.090 --> 01:26:43.469
I wanna talk about

1226
01:26:43.850 --> 01:26:44.989
the Twitter files.

1227
01:26:49.765 --> 01:26:51.065
Okay. So it's still

1228
01:26:51.925 --> 01:26:53.125
it's hearsay from,

1229
01:26:54.245 --> 01:26:58.025
from a blue check. Okay. We'll we'll we'll stay up to date on that. I'd

1230
01:26:58.805 --> 01:27:02.425
be absolutely massive to have that done tonight. I mean, everyone was thinking

1231
01:27:02.970 --> 01:27:04.590
his sentence was gonna get commuted.

1232
01:27:05.690 --> 01:27:09.550
A pardon would mean that he was at you know, that he's actually not guilty,

1233
01:27:10.170 --> 01:27:14.670
rather than time served. So I do wonder what that means for returning his Bitcoin,

1234
01:27:15.655 --> 01:27:20.395
and if there's any implications there, but I'm not a lawyer. I wanna talk about the Twitter files real quick.

1235
01:27:21.175 --> 01:27:23.755
A lot of people have used the Twitter files against you.

1236
01:27:25.574 --> 01:27:29.435
What do you think the main takeaway first of all, were they actually accurate?

1237
01:27:30.100 --> 01:27:33.640
And then what is the what is the main takeaway people should have,

1238
01:27:35.140 --> 01:27:36.840
from them in your opinion?

1239
01:27:38.900 --> 01:27:43.960
Well, I mean, there are act there's accurate artifacts in there, but I think people mainly stopped at the headlines,

1240
01:27:44.635 --> 01:27:47.935
and they didn't really go through. And, like, our team pushed back on a lot.

1241
01:27:48.795 --> 01:27:52.735
Some things we agreed with and we did, and other things we didn't. And,

1242
01:27:54.395 --> 01:27:56.094
I think they're all

1243
01:27:56.395 --> 01:28:04.510
rational choices at the time based on what we're the situation we're in. But, again, like, this is what happens in a public company

1244
01:28:04.890 --> 01:28:08.030
when you have a business model that is dependent upon

1245
01:28:08.730 --> 01:28:10.110
engagement and people

1246
01:28:10.835 --> 01:28:11.335
feeling

1247
01:28:12.275 --> 01:28:17.975
like it's a safe, clean space. That's what the advertisers want. Right? Otherwise, you get just really, really crappy

1248
01:28:18.355 --> 01:28:20.054
direct response ads,

1249
01:28:20.515 --> 01:28:24.450
and that could be your thing. But that's not what we're going for.

1250
01:28:24.850 --> 01:28:25.350
So

1251
01:28:25.650 --> 01:28:27.270
it's a business decision ultimately.

1252
01:28:28.130 --> 01:28:36.310
And, as I said, like, when we we banned Trump, I think we did the right thing for Twitter, the business, but the wrong thing for the Internet.

1253
01:28:36.705 --> 01:28:42.005
And I tweeted about this and, like, this is exactly why we put more and more funding into Blue Sky and

1254
01:28:42.465 --> 01:28:43.125
and put

1255
01:28:44.385 --> 01:28:48.145
and why I care about these protocols so much now is because, like, the

1256
01:28:49.020 --> 01:28:55.119
just a a company owning it and having one person in charge is always gonna have some some point in time

1257
01:28:55.659 --> 01:29:01.425
where it is corrupted and they're making a choice for the whole, which they shouldn't be able to make.

1258
01:29:01.905 --> 01:29:08.244
And it's gonna happen again and again and again. It doesn't matter what platform you tell me. It is whether it be X, it's already happened.

1259
01:29:08.784 --> 01:29:10.485
TikTok, it's already happened.

1260
01:29:10.945 --> 01:29:15.500
Meta and threads, no matter how much they change their moderation policies, it's going to happen.

1261
01:29:16.440 --> 01:29:20.140
Nasser is the only one I know of that you can't Blue Sky, it's happened,

1262
01:29:20.760 --> 01:29:21.580
which, again,

1263
01:29:22.600 --> 01:29:27.580
why I left and why I stepped off the board and why we went all in on on Nasser.

1264
01:29:28.745 --> 01:29:33.325
I mean, they actually use it as a argument for Blue Sky. It's like a positive,

1265
01:29:34.025 --> 01:29:44.525
which is interesting. Yeah. They they I I believe they made all the same mistakes we made and, like, just did not learn from what we need to learn in moderation and content and

1266
01:29:45.040 --> 01:29:48.900
and building building systems. So to your point, do you regret you regret

1267
01:29:50.000 --> 01:29:50.500
banning

1268
01:29:51.680 --> 01:29:53.380
the sitting president of the United States?

1269
01:29:54.080 --> 01:29:58.980
I regret that we had to. I feel like we had to as a company, because if we didn't,

1270
01:30:01.175 --> 01:30:06.715
I don't think our business would be around. You were just would you would lose advertisers, not government action? Lose advertisers.

1271
01:30:07.735 --> 01:30:09.835
The government wasn't pushing us to do anything.

1272
01:30:10.855 --> 01:30:16.480
We had we had many we had many requests from the Trump administration to for take down stuff. Like,

1273
01:30:19.420 --> 01:30:21.679
probably on the order of the

1274
01:30:22.059 --> 01:30:25.040
the the inputs we would get from, the Biden administration

1275
01:30:26.554 --> 01:30:30.895
and the GOP and the and the and the Democrats, like, you know, that we

1276
01:30:31.275 --> 01:30:34.815
we saw we saw everything from everyone. We didn't take direction from them

1277
01:30:35.275 --> 01:30:36.574
unless there were security

1278
01:30:36.955 --> 01:30:38.735
risks or acts of violence,

1279
01:30:39.920 --> 01:30:42.500
or CSAM or anything like that, but,

1280
01:30:43.440 --> 01:30:45.060
we took, we took input.

1281
01:30:51.055 --> 01:30:51.875
So I see,

1282
01:30:52.735 --> 01:30:55.155
Rob Hamilton in the comments bringing up,

1283
01:30:55.775 --> 01:30:56.675
people linking

1284
01:30:58.415 --> 01:31:01.155
on Noster posting screenshots of this.

1285
01:31:02.095 --> 01:31:06.595
It looks like Ross was just granted a full and unconditional pardon by real

1286
01:31:07.030 --> 01:31:07.850
Donald Trump.

1287
01:31:08.870 --> 01:31:19.770
Words cannot express how grateful we are. President Trump is a man of his word and just saved Ross' life. Ross is a free man. That came from the official free Ross account, it looks like. That's great.

1288
01:31:21.535 --> 01:31:23.315
That's wonderful. Amazing. News.

1289
01:31:24.575 --> 01:31:25.795
It's a beautiful day.

1290
01:31:26.895 --> 01:31:29.715
It's a beautiful day, Freaks. Glad you're all here with us,

1291
01:31:30.255 --> 01:31:30.735
and,

1292
01:31:31.775 --> 01:31:33.630
it's a beautiful sunset too.

1293
01:31:33.949 --> 01:31:35.090
Really appreciate it.

1294
01:31:39.389 --> 01:31:40.210
Do you think

1295
01:31:43.230 --> 01:31:45.489
there's something inherently wrong with

1296
01:31:45.805 --> 01:32:00.705
Nasr in its early days when you're bootstrapping it to post a screenshot of something that's breaking on x? No. Should that be something The more content, the better. The more content, the better. I think all the all the content, Nasr like, how do we get it to be the greatest repository, the biggest repository,

1297
01:32:01.270 --> 01:32:04.010
the greatest corpus of human communication, thought,

1298
01:32:04.310 --> 01:32:04.810
images,

1299
01:32:05.590 --> 01:32:06.810
videos, photography?

1300
01:32:07.510 --> 01:32:10.889
And then what's lacking then is discovery, search, and trending.

1301
01:32:11.270 --> 01:32:16.085
And I guarantee you give people a problem that big, they'll wanna solve for it.

1302
01:32:16.865 --> 01:32:21.845
Yeah. I mean, I it's kinda weird. I I see, like, people get angry about it when you do post a screenshot.

1303
01:32:23.905 --> 01:32:25.925
First of all, if x wasn't a walled garden,

1304
01:32:27.110 --> 01:32:29.850
I could post a link, and you could go to it without an account.

1305
01:32:30.950 --> 01:32:39.290
The only way to really easily share it is with a screenshot. But it seems like something we should be incentivizing. Like, I'll I'll I'd zap that if someone is screenshotting,

1306
01:32:40.855 --> 01:32:44.875
important breaking news Yeah. In the bootstrap first. And we we can build technology to, like,

1307
01:32:45.494 --> 01:32:56.340
read the screenshot and make it into more text format that can be searched on Nasr. Like, all this is possible. It's just, like, what are we building and, like, why? And I I think, like, that

1308
01:32:56.640 --> 01:32:57.140
having

1309
01:32:57.600 --> 01:32:59.540
having all thought, having all communication,

1310
01:33:00.640 --> 01:33:04.820
Nastr is the only one can that can do it because it's the only neutral party.

1311
01:33:06.160 --> 01:33:09.380
It's the only neutral protocol that can actually host us.

1312
01:33:10.695 --> 01:33:16.795
Our service our server costs are extremely low in comparison to everything else, inclusive of Blue Sky.

1313
01:33:18.215 --> 01:33:30.150
It's very easy to set set a relay up. It's very easy to set a client up. It's very easy to use the API and inject stuff into it. So, like, what are we waiting for? Like, let's put it all in.

1314
01:33:34.130 --> 01:33:34.630
Agreed.

1315
01:33:36.575 --> 01:33:37.075
I'm,

1316
01:33:37.855 --> 01:33:41.955
I'm just appreciating that Ross got a full part in. That's wonderful. No. It's incredible.

1317
01:33:46.255 --> 01:33:46.755
I,

1318
01:33:56.719 --> 01:33:58.980
Do you think that so

1319
01:33:59.840 --> 01:34:02.580
and by the way, this is why I think some people think

1320
01:34:04.105 --> 01:34:08.125
Noster is a distraction for Bitcoiners because we've been chatting for an hour and 40 minutes.

1321
01:34:08.744 --> 01:34:10.844
We've definitely talked about Noster more

1322
01:34:11.385 --> 01:34:12.125
than Bitcoin.

1323
01:34:12.824 --> 01:34:13.324
Yeah.

1324
01:34:16.440 --> 01:34:17.660
One of the arguments,

1325
01:34:18.360 --> 01:34:20.540
so a lot of my perspective is,

1326
01:34:24.200 --> 01:34:31.020
is based on my experience in Bitcoin. And one of the arguments we've heard in Bitcoin for years is the biggest threat to Bitcoin is governments,

1327
01:34:34.235 --> 01:34:42.735
you know, improving their monetary policy, making their money better, having it work better, having it not debase people, and then people wouldn't have a need for Bitcoin.

1328
01:34:43.435 --> 01:34:46.495
Obviously, that'll never happen. Like, humans just inherently,

1329
01:34:49.159 --> 01:34:51.580
if there's an ability to be corrupted, they get corrupted.

1330
01:34:52.120 --> 01:34:53.420
How do you feel about,

1331
01:34:55.880 --> 01:35:00.540
you know, someone like Elon on x or someone like Mark with

1332
01:35:01.705 --> 01:35:02.205
Meta,

1333
01:35:03.305 --> 01:35:11.805
them adding Bitcoin or them adding algorithmic choice. Like, do you think that is a real concern in terms of Nostra adoption? Like, if Nostra is successful, will they,

1334
01:35:13.820 --> 01:35:17.660
will they be able to compete in that way by adding, improving their own centralized

1335
01:35:18.940 --> 01:35:22.080
I mean, the way I said the way I said early on is, like, if Noster,

1336
01:35:23.420 --> 01:35:29.520
or if one of these decentralized open protocols inspires someone to do the right behaviors, then we all win.

1337
01:35:30.755 --> 01:35:31.655
So, like, if

1338
01:35:32.275 --> 01:35:34.935
if Elon builds in algorithmic choice,

1339
01:35:35.395 --> 01:35:42.855
which I hope he does, and I've talked to him about it. If, he builds in Bitcoin, which we actually had in the past, but I think they shut it down,

1340
01:35:43.440 --> 01:35:45.140
It was just tipping on the profile.

1341
01:35:45.600 --> 01:35:48.580
It was a start, but we didn't we didn't get to finish it.

1342
01:35:50.000 --> 01:35:54.020
Then and that's inspired by, like, seeing the use case on Nasr, then

1343
01:35:54.880 --> 01:36:02.075
Nasr wins because we all win. Right? And if it takes away from Nasr usage, but, like, those use cases are there, I think we all still win.

1344
01:36:03.175 --> 01:36:04.635
Yeah. That's best case scenario.

1345
01:36:05.095 --> 01:36:13.940
Right? You want them to copy good freedom oriented things. But also, like, I their incentive. The only way these business model works is as much content as possible.

1346
01:36:14.240 --> 01:36:15.540
So why would you not

1347
01:36:16.000 --> 01:36:22.725
take content from Noster and put it in Twitter to put your algorithms on top of it and sell ads on it

1348
01:36:23.205 --> 01:36:27.625
because you have more content to deal with. You have more things to trend, and they could be

1349
01:36:28.165 --> 01:36:29.705
a client that helps Nasr

1350
01:36:30.085 --> 01:36:30.585
because

1351
01:36:31.045 --> 01:36:34.985
by definition, it's the only one that will have the most because it's neutral.

1352
01:36:35.790 --> 01:36:47.969
So, like, this was my argument for why we start the protocol and why we fund the protocol in the first place when we had investors, when it we started the idea of Blue Sky. Why are you doing this thing? Because we get more content. More content means

1353
01:36:48.315 --> 01:36:51.775
more revenue for us and and a greater a greater business over time.

1354
01:36:53.755 --> 01:36:56.175
There's another piece here too where it's

1355
01:36:56.955 --> 01:36:57.855
we're watching

1356
01:36:59.515 --> 01:37:02.495
you know, right now, LLMs, AI, or all the hype,

1357
01:37:04.850 --> 01:37:06.790
they're very hyped. They're very new.

1358
01:37:07.170 --> 01:37:08.389
We're watching Elon.

1359
01:37:08.929 --> 01:37:13.429
It appears, at least from my from my perspective, watching him attempt to monetize

1360
01:37:14.369 --> 01:37:18.835
x with x AI with and I guess, users are familiar with it as Grok.

1361
01:37:21.135 --> 01:37:22.435
How do you think about

1362
01:37:22.895 --> 01:37:24.995
how do you think about that aspect

1363
01:37:25.535 --> 01:37:26.594
changing the,

1364
01:37:28.335 --> 01:37:35.520
I guess, not the road map, but how it gets how x gets built out? Because it it seems to me like the, like, the approach right now seems to be

1365
01:37:35.820 --> 01:37:36.720
you don't wanna

1366
01:37:37.340 --> 01:37:40.240
if he adopts an open protocol, if he adopts something like Nostr,

1367
01:37:40.940 --> 01:37:42.320
he's removing his proprietary

1368
01:37:42.700 --> 01:37:45.200
access to this real time database

1369
01:37:45.900 --> 01:37:51.235
that Grok is using. Right? It's like Grok's proprietary advantage is that you have a bunch of

1370
01:37:51.695 --> 01:37:58.035
accounts around the world that are providing commentary on breaking news, and so they're able to provide this real time,

1371
01:38:01.286 --> 01:38:09.660
the these these real time updates that the LLM is then able to feed into your answers. How does that affect how things proceed? But the more, the better. Like, he'd even,

1372
01:38:10.620 --> 01:38:16.365
he'd he's gonna have the best proprietary information if he has more people in using Twitter, the client,

1373
01:38:16.905 --> 01:38:18.045
or x the client.

1374
01:38:18.825 --> 01:38:20.925
Like the app itself. Yes. Yes.

1375
01:38:21.305 --> 01:38:27.805
So and if x AI is built into that and Grok is built into it, it's extra utility that you can't find on other platforms. Right?

1376
01:38:28.110 --> 01:38:28.610
So

1377
01:38:29.150 --> 01:38:34.050
that means that even if you were to give all the content to Nostra and open it to the protocol,

1378
01:38:34.510 --> 01:38:37.970
he still has 2 very compelling things like XAI or Grok

1379
01:38:38.430 --> 01:38:47.565
that can make that experience much better. It can find things faster. It can find better things. It can find deeper things, and you can't find that on any other clients. So

1380
01:38:47.865 --> 01:38:48.605
still wins.

1381
01:38:50.025 --> 01:38:53.645
But it takes almost a leap of faith, right, to give up that proprietary

1382
01:38:54.185 --> 01:38:54.685
information

1383
01:38:55.065 --> 01:38:58.270
for But it's the same leap of faith that people took with the web

1384
01:38:58.810 --> 01:38:59.310
Right.

1385
01:38:59.890 --> 01:39:09.090
And with, email. And look at those businesses. I mean, look at the search business as example of this. Like, Google is able to able to build

1386
01:39:09.550 --> 01:39:14.365
one of the most efficient businesses in the world on the back of search and the web

1387
01:39:14.825 --> 01:39:16.045
and mail, email.

1388
01:39:16.505 --> 01:39:21.965
2 open protocols, entirely open protocols they didn't control, and everyone had inputs and outputs to it.

1389
01:39:22.905 --> 01:39:25.245
There are models here that work for companies

1390
01:39:26.280 --> 01:39:28.220
using open protocols such as Nasr.

1391
01:39:28.600 --> 01:39:30.060
It's just a matter of time.

1392
01:39:32.680 --> 01:39:38.460
You may be funding one of those companies that figures it out. I mean, I but I think 1031 is unique in that

1393
01:39:39.415 --> 01:39:48.395
we actually fund companies that build open on on open protocols and build in the open. Like, I think it's kind of rare. I think what we really see usually is

1394
01:39:49.255 --> 01:39:52.235
particularly start up capital, like VC Equity Capital,

1395
01:39:53.255 --> 01:39:53.755
prefers

1396
01:39:54.900 --> 01:40:00.679
proprietary walled gardens, traditional modes. And, like, it's changing, but it changes very slowly, it seems. Yeah.

1397
01:40:03.540 --> 01:40:06.679
It is. It's gonna be a slow it's gonna be a slow burn.

1398
01:40:07.219 --> 01:40:09.160
It's crazy how as it gets dark,

1399
01:40:09.945 --> 01:40:14.045
it's now like the waves are battling the noise of the of the insects.

1400
01:40:15.304 --> 01:40:18.284
It's quite it is the loudest studio I've been in in a while.

1401
01:40:19.545 --> 01:40:20.844
Okay. One last topic,

1402
01:40:21.750 --> 01:40:22.730
and then we can

1403
01:40:24.470 --> 01:40:26.890
wrap, unless you have something else you wanna talk about.

1404
01:40:27.350 --> 01:40:28.890
So In my time,

1405
01:40:29.270 --> 01:40:30.090
I've had

1406
01:40:32.950 --> 01:40:34.650
I've had 3 moments,

1407
01:40:36.915 --> 01:40:39.574
where I've just seen this this incredibly

1408
01:40:39.954 --> 01:40:41.094
viral organic

1409
01:40:43.074 --> 01:40:43.574
developer

1410
01:40:43.954 --> 01:40:44.454
led,

1411
01:40:46.114 --> 01:40:46.614
movement.

1412
01:40:46.915 --> 01:40:49.014
And that the first one was Bitcoin,

1413
01:40:49.910 --> 01:40:54.650
and the second 2 were Nasr and Cashew, Cashew being this

1414
01:40:55.510 --> 01:40:59.050
chummy and e cash protocol for Bitcoin. I like to say it's a

1415
01:41:00.070 --> 01:41:04.570
Bitcoin's an open protocol for money. Nasr is an open protocol for speech and comms.

1416
01:41:06.095 --> 01:41:09.075
Lightning is an open protocol for batch Bitcoin payments,

1417
01:41:10.015 --> 01:41:12.915
and eCash is an open protocol for Bitcoin banks.

1418
01:41:13.615 --> 01:41:16.755
I know you're also seem to be pretty fascinated about

1419
01:41:17.615 --> 01:41:20.035
Casu specifically. How do you think about it?

1420
01:41:20.860 --> 01:41:24.800
I I mean, those are those are definitely my my 3 as well.

1421
01:41:25.820 --> 01:41:27.840
Like, it just moves super fast and

1422
01:41:28.300 --> 01:41:32.960
the developers behind each one of those what resonated with me is they're very principled,

1423
01:41:33.420 --> 01:41:43.114
and they stick with the principles. Like, that's that to me was the early Internet. That's what kept me. That's what that's what got me there. That's what kept me. And I see that,

1424
01:41:43.574 --> 01:41:44.954
with with those.

1425
01:41:46.054 --> 01:41:54.330
I think Casio is really important because it's that accessibility layer. It gives, and it goes back to communities, by the way. I think Nostra communities

1426
01:41:54.950 --> 01:41:57.930
such as Ditto and Cashew are the perfect marriage

1427
01:41:58.390 --> 01:42:00.730
because you have your own way

1428
01:42:01.030 --> 01:42:07.085
to exchange ideas and money, and it's all self contained, and it feels very tight, and it feels comfortable.

1429
01:42:07.625 --> 01:42:20.890
And that's what I think we're we're lacking right now is it just feels too big. There's no boundaries. And what do I do here? People know exactly what to do in their neighborhood. They know exactly what to do with their friend group, with their poker group, with, their surfing group.

1430
01:42:21.670 --> 01:42:29.850
They they know, and, like, that's what we need to to build for. And I think Cashew is a part of that because I I don't think just pure Bitcoin or lightning works,

1431
01:42:30.310 --> 01:42:33.850
in that sense, in the in the with the speed and and the way

1432
01:42:34.215 --> 01:42:35.915
that, that we need.

1433
01:42:36.775 --> 01:42:42.155
So I'm super excited about it. I think the one you left out because nothing is in the horizon yet is, intelligence.

1434
01:42:48.079 --> 01:42:50.820
Are you gonna are you gonna explain why?

1435
01:42:51.520 --> 01:42:56.420
Because we have we have, like, we have the open source LLMs, but, like, we have no real

1436
01:42:56.960 --> 01:42:58.099
momentum behind,

1437
01:42:59.775 --> 01:43:00.435
like, decentralizing

1438
01:43:01.135 --> 01:43:04.195
intelligence, taking it away from the hands of the companies,

1439
01:43:05.375 --> 01:43:08.035
and having another option. Like, we need that other option.

1440
01:43:08.415 --> 01:43:11.075
And I it's probably with agent systems,

1441
01:43:11.455 --> 01:43:13.635
and agents on Nostra would be phenomenal

1442
01:43:13.960 --> 01:43:21.340
because it is a defined protocol and, like, they can roam about and do things for you, do tasks. But if I had to look in any one space that's gonna feel

1443
01:43:21.800 --> 01:43:27.005
that way, it's probably gonna be around agents. And I think there's a good intersection with obviously,

1444
01:43:27.625 --> 01:43:28.765
Bitcoin and, obviously,

1445
01:43:30.105 --> 01:43:32.925
Nostra and and probably Cashew as well. It's probably

1446
01:43:33.465 --> 01:43:36.125
it's like not it's like Nostra and Cashew combined.

1447
01:43:36.425 --> 01:43:40.765
Yeah. Right? Where, like, LLMs and users are paying each other with Cashew. They're community

1448
01:43:41.100 --> 01:43:42.320
communicating over Nasr.

1449
01:43:42.780 --> 01:43:45.199
And then Nasr signposts are the

1450
01:43:46.540 --> 01:43:56.804
the the the main The identity. The not only that, not only the identity, but also the the single best dataset for LLMs to source from. Right? Because they have the verifiable reputations.

1451
01:43:57.505 --> 01:43:58.645
Everything is signed.

1452
01:43:59.105 --> 01:44:01.284
You know it hasn't been altered. Yes.

1453
01:44:01.585 --> 01:44:08.625
You can use it without permission. 100%. So that's definitely the next piece, but it's still very nascent. Right? Like, have you seen anything really

1454
01:44:09.440 --> 01:44:10.340
I've seen nothing.

1455
01:44:11.280 --> 01:44:21.060
Very interesting yet, but, like, that's that's why it's exciting as well. Like, who's gonna be the first? Like, who's gonna be the first to, like, actually step into that? I think there's there's one Venice.

1456
01:44:22.285 --> 01:44:23.965
I don't know the details behind it, but,

1457
01:44:24.925 --> 01:44:27.825
there's some energy there, but it's just not cohesive yet.

1458
01:44:29.405 --> 01:44:37.620
I mean, I think, like, in practice, what it'll probably look like for end users is kind of what Grok has been doing, what XAI has at least been

1459
01:44:39.140 --> 01:44:53.160
towing into. And I I would say But not just an LLM, an agent. Right. An agent that actually can go and do work and tasks and then come back with value. Yeah. Yeah. That you own in the same way that you own your content. You own these agents. You own the like, this mini

1460
01:44:53.725 --> 01:44:59.824
LLM, if you will. So it's like Clippy, but better. Exactly. And you can send them can I help? You can send them to battle.

1461
01:45:00.285 --> 01:45:02.465
How can I help? Like a VC. So

1462
01:45:03.965 --> 01:45:12.320
how do we bootstrap that? Do we Someone's gotta build it. We gotta build it. I think if we say enough good mornings, maybe it'll happen. I don't think so.

1463
01:45:13.020 --> 01:45:14.719
I like to give people actionable

1464
01:45:15.340 --> 01:45:16.559
advice on this show.

1465
01:45:18.219 --> 01:45:20.480
Do you have if someone wants to get started

1466
01:45:20.925 --> 01:45:23.505
with Bitcoin, what are your favorite Bitcoin wallets?

1467
01:45:26.685 --> 01:45:28.145
It's changed over time.

1468
01:45:28.525 --> 01:45:31.745
I'll give I'll give 3. The first was probably Moon,

1469
01:45:32.285 --> 01:45:33.985
m u u n. 2 u's.

1470
01:45:34.365 --> 01:45:34.865
And

1471
01:45:36.300 --> 01:45:38.320
I I just they they know

1472
01:45:38.700 --> 01:45:41.440
they really understood design. They understood accessibility.

1473
01:45:42.540 --> 01:45:50.480
I've converted a bunch of people who are new to Bitcoin because of Moon, because they could get it, and they felt safe about it right away because of the recovery mechanisms.

1474
01:45:51.245 --> 01:45:52.305
The second one,

1475
01:45:54.205 --> 01:45:54.945
is probably,

1476
01:45:56.685 --> 01:45:57.585
is it Phoenix?

1477
01:45:58.125 --> 01:46:00.365
Yeah. Phoenix wallet, the lightning wallet. Yep.

1478
01:46:00.925 --> 01:46:04.625
Because of the lightning aspects and because that they were starting to, like,

1479
01:46:04.950 --> 01:46:07.610
for anyone who, like, really wants to use it.

1480
01:46:08.710 --> 01:46:10.650
And then the third is is Vicky,

1481
01:46:11.670 --> 01:46:12.730
who for whoever

1482
01:46:13.350 --> 01:46:20.765
doesn't wanna lose it. Because I think we've done and the team has done a really good job at, like, building something where it's almost impossible to lose your Bitcoin,

1483
01:46:21.225 --> 01:46:23.805
and people understand it right away. And I've watched

1484
01:46:24.425 --> 01:46:26.285
older people and younger people

1485
01:46:26.825 --> 01:46:28.205
who are brand new to Bitcoin

1486
01:46:29.145 --> 01:46:31.085
fully set up a wallet, receive Bitcoin,

1487
01:46:31.705 --> 01:46:33.165
and feel good about it.

1488
01:46:34.880 --> 01:46:37.060
So I'm predominantly using

1489
01:46:37.840 --> 01:46:39.300
the Bikki wallet right now,

1490
01:46:40.080 --> 01:46:40.580
but,

1491
01:46:41.840 --> 01:46:46.260
I I still love Moon. I still love Phoenix, and I I try to mix them up.

1492
01:46:46.915 --> 01:46:47.975
Okay. So Bitcoin.

1493
01:46:49.235 --> 01:46:52.135
Do you have any do you have any Cashew wallets you could recommend?

1494
01:46:53.875 --> 01:47:03.909
The main one. Kelly's main one. Cash. The web, the pw. Dot me. Yeah. The the PWA. Cash u dot me is great. Mini Because you don't have to go through the App Store. There's no permission. Yeah. It works.

1495
01:47:04.210 --> 01:47:05.429
It's super solid.

1496
01:47:05.809 --> 01:47:11.025
They have backup and, I think backup seed phrases and, and recoveries in beta right now.

1497
01:47:11.905 --> 01:47:15.844
It works. I tried it. Yeah. We went into depth. I had Cali on the show,

1498
01:47:17.185 --> 01:47:19.844
twice now, a few days ago a few weeks ago.

1499
01:47:20.545 --> 01:47:21.284
But cashu.me,

1500
01:47:22.145 --> 01:47:22.645
casu.me.

1501
01:47:24.784 --> 01:47:25.525
And then

1502
01:47:26.410 --> 01:47:35.790
there's many, many Nostra apps, but Nostra apps for for beginners, people that just wanna get started that haven't used it yet. Beginners, I point people to primal.

1503
01:47:36.250 --> 01:47:36.750
Primal.net,

1504
01:47:38.010 --> 01:47:40.110
primal on the App Store, the Google Play,

1505
01:47:40.525 --> 01:47:41.905
only because it's,

1506
01:47:42.605 --> 01:47:43.985
it's on those 3 platforms.

1507
01:47:45.005 --> 01:47:46.785
It's probably the most

1508
01:47:47.165 --> 01:47:47.665
like

1509
01:47:48.045 --> 01:47:51.985
Twitter that you'll experience or threads or kinda what you expect,

1510
01:47:53.360 --> 01:47:59.780
And it gets you in very fast, but the most important thing is it has a built in wallet, so you can actually feel zaps right away.

1511
01:48:01.199 --> 01:48:03.139
Domus is another great one.

1512
01:48:03.520 --> 01:48:05.535
You have to hook up your own wallet to it.

1513
01:48:06.255 --> 01:48:06.755
It's

1514
01:48:07.295 --> 01:48:13.155
much faster than my experience in terms of, like, actual speed, and it's much more

1515
01:48:14.655 --> 01:48:16.515
pure in terms of, like, the protocol.

1516
01:48:16.975 --> 01:48:20.035
So if you care a lot more about the

1517
01:48:20.860 --> 01:48:22.800
attributes of Noster and what makes it

1518
01:48:24.140 --> 01:48:25.340
decentralized and,

1519
01:48:25.739 --> 01:48:28.880
censorship resistant, I think Domus is is that.

1520
01:48:30.140 --> 01:48:35.200
Amethyst on on Android is a kitchen sink. If you want, like, the WeChat

1521
01:48:35.525 --> 01:48:38.585
of Nostr, it's Amethyst if you have an Android device.

1522
01:48:40.485 --> 01:48:45.065
Those are the those are good. There's there's so many. Have you used Nostr with a u? Nostier?

1523
01:48:45.605 --> 01:48:46.744
I've used it. Yeah.

1524
01:48:47.125 --> 01:48:56.480
I like that client too, that app. Jaco Hone has a built in Bitcoin wallet now. I wanna see more with Bitcoin built in Bitcoin wallets. Yes. It makes it easier for new people.

1525
01:48:57.340 --> 01:49:01.119
I think every nostril app should have a Bitcoin wallet, but I'm a little bit biased.

1526
01:49:02.235 --> 01:49:03.695
But I think those are good recommendations.

1527
01:49:03.995 --> 01:49:07.534
And I would just say to anyone who's thinking about it, just,

1528
01:49:08.235 --> 01:49:19.280
you know, download one of those nostril apps and, say good morning every morning. I don't know about that. Is it a good place to start? Or you There's enough good mornings. Like, let's get some other content. Provide provide your commentary

1529
01:49:19.660 --> 01:49:20.960
on breaking news.

1530
01:49:21.420 --> 01:49:30.925
Like like Ross being freed. Yeah. Like I bet you I bet you right now. Message, like, on Noster reads. Like, I bet you right now, if you open up Primal, there's better commentary

1531
01:49:31.304 --> 01:49:37.324
on Ross being freed and a more joyous occasion than x right now. I'm sure. Like, Reads has,

1532
01:49:38.425 --> 01:49:39.065
Reads has,

1533
01:49:39.465 --> 01:49:42.844
like, as an equivalent to Substack, and you can write full on essays

1534
01:49:43.390 --> 01:49:47.730
in Noster. You can you can push them to Twitter. You can push them to Instagram, to TikTok.

1535
01:49:48.190 --> 01:49:49.970
Keep them on Noster, but, like,

1536
01:49:50.670 --> 01:49:54.690
the most important thing is you own that content. It can never be taken down. It can never be,

1537
01:49:55.310 --> 01:49:55.810
altered,

1538
01:49:56.885 --> 01:50:01.145
and you can sign it with your identity, and everyone knows it's actually you.

1539
01:50:01.525 --> 01:50:02.005
So,

1540
01:50:02.405 --> 01:50:03.305
try it out.

1541
01:50:03.925 --> 01:50:14.750
Yeah. No. I think Reeds is really promising. I wanna see more there's not enough apps that support live streams yet. I think that's something that Twitter did pretty well. And now X is doing quite well. Yep.

1542
01:50:17.449 --> 01:50:32.565
And, like, right now, the only two apps I know of that do it on mobile are Nastia and, Amethyst, so I'd like to see more of them support that. So reads in that. And then, like, Instagram stuff. Right? We're seeing Pablo with Olas, which is still quite early. But Yeah.

1543
01:50:33.045 --> 01:50:34.985
I would, you know, I would like to see more

1544
01:50:35.925 --> 01:50:38.905
of this non I'm I'm biased to the

1545
01:50:39.310 --> 01:50:44.370
quote, unquote microblogging tweet style. That was always my favorite way to consume and participate.

1546
01:50:46.190 --> 01:50:53.409
But to see more formats, that's the beauty of Nostra, right, is you can use it how you wanna use it, and it's an interoperable protocol would be awesome. A 100%.

1547
01:50:54.275 --> 01:50:54.775
Jack,

1548
01:50:55.155 --> 01:50:56.215
this is a pleasure.

1549
01:50:57.635 --> 01:50:58.695
Do you have any

1550
01:50:59.474 --> 01:51:01.014
final thoughts before we wrap?

1551
01:51:01.315 --> 01:51:03.415
Thank you, Marty. I mean I mean, Matt.

1552
01:51:06.435 --> 01:51:08.100
No? We covered a lot.

1553
01:51:10.020 --> 01:51:11.800
Well We covered a lot. Thank you.

1554
01:51:13.460 --> 01:51:16.680
It was a beautiful sunset. I think the the timing was perfect.

1555
01:51:17.300 --> 01:51:19.080
Hopefully. Starting to get a little bit buggy.

1556
01:51:19.700 --> 01:51:23.695
Hopefully, we'll do the same time next year, maybe? Yeah. Let's do it.

1557
01:51:24.074 --> 01:51:25.695
And 21st January.

1558
01:51:26.074 --> 01:51:33.215
Huge shout out to all the freaks who continue to support the show. We got a lot of zaps today. I see Jack Mallers is the largest one with a 100,000 sats.

1559
01:51:34.155 --> 01:51:38.220
Dispatch has no ads or sponsors. It's purely supported by Bitcoin donations.

1560
01:51:38.600 --> 01:51:45.260
Has Marty zapped? So thank you for yeah. He did because he wanted his advertisement for his podcast in the feed. Oh, okay. Okay.

1561
01:51:46.840 --> 01:51:52.035
But I appreciate the I appreciate the zap, Marty. You could have sent it from your personal account instead of your podcast

1562
01:51:54.115 --> 01:51:56.435
account, but, Yeah. This was awesome. And,

1563
01:51:59.235 --> 01:52:01.815
huge shout out huge shout out to Ross,

1564
01:52:02.435 --> 01:52:03.735
to Lynn, his mother.

1565
01:52:04.760 --> 01:52:05.660
I'm incredibly

1566
01:52:06.920 --> 01:52:08.860
relieved that he is free now.

1567
01:52:11.400 --> 01:52:13.020
It's been a long time coming.

1568
01:52:13.560 --> 01:52:15.180
I urge people to

1569
01:52:16.520 --> 01:52:17.740
give him some space.

1570
01:52:19.425 --> 01:52:25.045
You know, you don't have to badger him. You know, if he wants to speak publicly, he'll speak publicly when he's ready.

1571
01:52:26.305 --> 01:52:28.485
He's gone through quite quite a lot.

1572
01:52:29.265 --> 01:52:35.100
I said similar to with Assange when Assange just freed earlier last year, which was also

1573
01:52:36.320 --> 01:52:36.820
massive.

1574
01:52:38.040 --> 01:52:40.060
Give them some space. These guys are legends.

1575
01:52:41.560 --> 01:52:43.100
Also, huge shout out

1576
01:52:43.880 --> 01:52:48.460
to to David Bailey. You know, he has he has really put a lot of effort into

1577
01:52:49.325 --> 01:52:52.385
into making this the issue and Bitcoin Policy Institute,

1578
01:52:54.365 --> 01:52:58.065
for really shepherding it and making it making it a priority among

1579
01:52:58.685 --> 01:53:01.185
many other things that could have been a priority,

1580
01:53:02.010 --> 01:53:02.830
with this administration

1581
01:53:03.610 --> 01:53:04.510
and, of course,

1582
01:53:05.050 --> 01:53:07.150
to president Trump himself for signing it.

1583
01:53:08.170 --> 01:53:10.670
I think a lot of people thought it wasn't gonna happen. So,

1584
01:53:11.450 --> 01:53:13.790
it's it's absolutely beautiful to see.

1585
01:53:14.890 --> 01:53:18.300
Jack, thank you. Thank you. Pleasure as always. Thank you all.

1586
01:53:18.680 --> 01:53:21.020
Much love, everyone. Stay humble, stack sets.

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