CD151: STEVE LEE AND CRAIG RAW

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Created: 03/18/2025 18:30:51
Duration: 5889.984
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Wanted to point out to to show the power of a space like this is what we've seen around the world in this kind of emerging way for people to live in Bitcoin and spend in Bitcoin

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at at scale, and it's all because of spaces.

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So there's a space in Costa Rica called Bitcoin Jungle.

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There's a space on the African continent that's rooted a little more ephemerally,

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but it's the African Bitcoin Conference.

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And then there's a space that, our friend, Nifty over here has created called BTC plus plus, and it kinda moves around the world. But all three of these spaces brought people together who then figured out how to bridge Bitcoin with local fiat currency. So in Kenya and in Brazil and in Costa Rica,

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you can live in Bitcoin, and you can just walk up to anybody and pay them in in through the Lightning Network, which is acting as like a little bit of, like,

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you know, connective tissue between you living in Freedom Money and the merchant.

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The merchant just gets the local currency. So in Costa Rica, it's like a mobile app, mobile money, SIMP. They just they get the Costa Rican currency. In Kenya, it's the same thing. They get m pesa.

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And in in Brazil now, because of some of the developers who worked on a hackathon last week or something like that, you can get the Brazilian currency, but you can live in Bitcoin. And I'm starting to see this happen at scale. And this happened with as as with as with,

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what is it?

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Is it Azteco? Azteco? So Azteco is super dominant in South Africa. So people in South Africa do the same thing. They can live in Bitcoin and they can spend it in any store in the country. So you're starting to see it possible for people to actually live in Bitcoin

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at scale. You know, hundreds of millions of people can have access to this stuff. And it's all because of spaces. And I think that this space is gonna be important not just to spread

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awareness here in the Bay Area, but also to be a brother or sister organization to all the other spaces and to connect. One of the one of the ones that we helped start,

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is in India. India is a very important country for a million reasons, but it's one of the countries that I think in the next fifty years is gonna play one of the biggest roles in Bitcoin because of the public interest in gold and the public skepticism of of digital payments.

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And

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people in India who we were connected with applied to us to create,

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basically, a Presidio Bitcoin, but in India. And they did it, and they have it now, and they run it now. So there's so many cool things that you all can do when you link space to space to space.

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here

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for another Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

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discussion.

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It has been a month since our last dispatch.

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Many of you may have listened to it with the one and only Jack Dorsey. Sorry to keep you guys waiting

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for another rip,

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but we have a great conversation lined up. I got another great two conversations

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lined

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up over the next few weeks. Hopefully, I'll add more to that.

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Who do I have? I have April 2. I have Nifty

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joining us. We'll be talking about BTC plus plus

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and OpenSats.

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That's April 2 at two thousand UTC.

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And on April 11,

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I have Dan Gould joining us to talk about pay join.

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That will be

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at seventeen hundred UTC. As always, you can find all the information on the show at SILdispatch.com,

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all the relevant links.

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I recently

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ran the numbers,

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and SIL dispatch right now is

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we've recorded over three hundred and forty three hours of dispatch,

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which is insane. Rabbit hole recaps

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is at five hundred and forty seven hours. So that's over nine hundred hours

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of me

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on a podcast,

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which is either a great accomplishment

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or a questionable decision on my use of time.

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But thank you all for joining me for much of that. I appreciate it. And,

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if you appreciate the show, that's what keeps me going. Anyway, guys,

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that intro clip

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was

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Presidio Bitcoin. The Presidio Bitcoin launch is a new physical space

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in San Francisco.

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I have a lot of experience with running physical space in Bitcoin Park in Nashville. It's, quite an undertaking, but it's well worth it. We recently actually just launched in Austin as well, Bitcoin Park Austin merging the two communities.

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I have Steve Lee here who is in that clip.

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He's one of

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the guys in charge of Presidio Bitcoin and helping making that a reality. And I have Craig Raw here of Sparrow Wallet. Obviously, Steve is

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a many time guest here and is is also lead at Spiral Blocks Bitcoin initiative.

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Steve, how's it going?

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Great. How are you doing?

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I'm doing great. Craig, how's it going? You good over there?

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It's great. Yeah. Good to be back back on the pod.

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Final boss.

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Final boss.

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I I mean, I think a great place to start here and, obviously,

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yeah, a great place to start here is is Presidio Bitcoin.

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Steve, congratulations on the launch. What does it feel like over there?

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Thank you.

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Fantastic, actually. It's,

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I drank it up there as one of the top

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sort of product market fit thing projects I've worked on in my my career.

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Like, Google Master Mobile is

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is one of them.

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Proceeding Bitcoin has just been magical from the start.

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We've been having about 15 people work out of it since November as we build it out, and then we just launched it a few weeks ago. But,

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everyone who who is working out of it, everyone who visits

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seems to have a really good experience.

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Our retention of people working out of it is high, which which was a a known

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or a challenge going into it just because people get so used to working from home and they don't like to commute.

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So even though we have a a nice space here, just getting people off their butts to get in the into the office was an unknown,

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but that's been really successful. And it's a great event space too. We've had two of the best bit devs in San Francisco

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since, like, the 2018 era,

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50 plus people showing up.

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We got Greg Maxwell to come. So,

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that that I I consider that a coup.

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Yeah. It's going really well. And we have

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a a recording studio,

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and I'm even deciding to be a podcaster now. So there you go. Are you are you at Presidio right now?

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Yeah. I'm in the recording studio, but just using my I love it. Amateur setup. But Yeah. I mean, you had a who's who at the Presidio launch. I mean, that clip,

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to the people on audio, you were listening to Alex Gladstein speak.

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He was sitting next to David Marcus and Jack Dorsey, and, Steve was the was the moderator of that panel. But by far, the most impressive

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attendee was was g Max, having Greg Maxwell there. I I think a bunch of us were,

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that that was the one that hit us.

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G Max and Andrew Polstra. So I I I I highly doubt there's ever been a a small group meeting or, you know, event like that that has Michael Sailor, Jack Dorsey, David Marcus, Greg Maxwell, Andrew Polstra all in the same same room. And, like, rock star dev was there, and it it it was a real And there was, like, what? Like, 60 people. Right?

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Yep. About seventy seventy people. We we had about a %. The per the per capita concentration

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of of talent there was pretty insane.

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Yeah. And,

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one thing we're

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given our location in San Francisco Bay Area, 1 of the aims for this space

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is to, really do a lot of outreach and engagement with Silicon Valley and big tech.

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I feel like that

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Silicon Valley and big tech, that world and the Bitcoin world are just

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often,

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not seeing I die with each other.

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So,

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I come from the big tech world, but I'm a hardcore Bitcoiner. So,

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hopefully hopefully, this space can can help bridge that gap. I think

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I think, it's a it's a bridge worth worth,

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gapping. So

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I love it.

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Freaks, I,

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the Nostr stream is is is down.

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I guess Kieran of ZapStream

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is under attack,

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some sort of attack. Someone wiped his,

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all of his discs. He lost everything. Now he's under DDoS.

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We are streaming to YouTube.

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The YouTube live chat will be streamed into the broadcast. So if you wanna participate,

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participate via YouTube.

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I think

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I talked to a million about it. I think we're gonna have to release

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a Primal Video Streaming client.

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So that's your tease for the day. We'll keep it open and interoperable, and

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but

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and I love Kieran, but I think we're just gonna have to do that.

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So we'll make that happen, and, hopefully,

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it'll become the best place,

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to stream video.

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Yes. And we have everything in the live chat. It is also streamed to x because I am not a purist,

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despite many,

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beliefs otherwise.

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Craig,

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I don't think you have any community spaces out by you. It seems like if you watch the news, you guys are fucked over there. How how are you thinking about,

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I mean, I think your location is public, but I also don't don't wanna say it out loud. Do you have any opinion on

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living within a strong community?

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Yeah. Look. I mean, I'm lucky enough to live in a a small village, and it it really does help,

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from many

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points of view. You have a community. You have

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you're able to have better security,

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because you can fund it in a private way. You don't have to rely on the state quite as much.

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But, you know,

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I think that that's true for anywhere that you live.

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Certainly,

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it helps that I live in a far corner of the world in many ways.

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I don't have to worry about certain things, but as everyone sees on the news, there are certain events or certain,

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a certain way of life that is under threat here.

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And, yeah, I mean, it's been going on for a long time. The news just happens to capture the current

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state of the nation, if you will. But,

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you know,

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we all have been

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observing,

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you know, what has been going on for quite a long time, many years now.

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Is I mean, is it is it legit, like, just a straight up race war over there right now?

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Look. I mean, South Africa obviously has a very complex

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racial history, and it's very hard to say anything about that without

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anything simple about that.

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It is unfortunate

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that we have, you know, this such extreme

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racial tension in our past because it leads to a lot of racial tension in our current

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present.

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And, you know, you can understand it while at the same time understanding why it's not helpful. So it's quite difficult

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to resolve.

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And, unfortunately, many people think that the state

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is the the body that must resolve this, that must

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bring equality or what have you.

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I don't

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agree with that view myself, but,

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unfortunately, that is the dominant view, and it results in a lot

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of very, racially biased laws here,

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which results in a great deal more

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tension. And

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so it leads on. You know? How do we get past that? I think we have to

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build a society

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which is ultimately meritocratic,

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which is ultimately

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based on good education,

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rather than trying to push people forward based on their skin color

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or some something else. So, you know, that's that's the goal, and the question that people don't agree on is how to get there.

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Well, well said.

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Just,

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I think you already know this, but if there's anything I can do or the global Bitcoin community, just shout. You got a lot of support out here. And, if you ever wanna seek refugee status in America,

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we can, like, work out some kind of visa situation. You could be like my personal Bitcoin infrastructure provider or something.

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We'll we'll make it work. Somehow, we're in the halls of government over here. So,

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we might even we might even be able to get you a preemptive pardon or something like that if we need to. You just, like like, a get out of jail free card forever.

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The city of Bitcoin is on federal land, so maybe that we can work a deal. Is it really? Yeah.

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So how does that work? Are you paying Elon rent?

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There's there's, like, a the landlord

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had leased this space for

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fifty years or some, like, super long period of time. Oh, wow.

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But it is it's like the Presidio Trust

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is the

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overall steward of the Presidio.

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That's fascinating. I mean, I knew pres the Presidio was federal,

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but I figured you guys were just, like, you could see it from your window or something. I didn't realize you were actually on the land. That's pretty cool. Interesting.

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Like, Luke Lucas films, like, Star Wars stuff is here on federal land. The statue of Yoda.

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Yeah.

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So, guys, I mean, I think our first topic should be,

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Bitkey. That's how we all connected,

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relatively recently, and then we decided to

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rip a dispatch for the benefit of everyone else because I think there's a lot of good conversation here.

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Why don't we start with,

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Steve. Why don't you explain what the big key is, why it exists, what what the goals of, of the project are?

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Sure.

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I'll just give my caveat that I I don't I don't work on the team.

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So I speak for myself, not for the team.

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And that, yeah. So I'll just speak freely. So I'll, Well, just before you continue, I just wanna say that I recently got to meet a bunch of the team in person,

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in Jackson Hole.

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So I I can speak for the team, but continue.

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So this will be my my own opinion. I I I work closely with them and and give feedback, but you can kinda think of me as, like, just a

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Bitcoiner like you guys,

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who is an advocate

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for the

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the the goals and aims of the Vicky product.

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So what

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what's, what's sort of unique about Vicky? I think what excites me most is just the,

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making it much simpler for people to self custody.

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The UX, I think, is I would call it revolutionary,

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dramatically better,

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for for pry managing private keys.

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And that's because, it it fundamentally,

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because the customer, the user doesn't have to

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directly

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handle private key material. So which a a lot of products,

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have seed phrases,

224
00:16:15.165 --> 00:16:21.584
and and with with Viki, you don't have to to handle that. It's also novel because it's a two or three multisig

225
00:16:22.365 --> 00:16:23.345
out of the box,

226
00:16:24.045 --> 00:16:24.365
and,

227
00:16:25.644 --> 00:16:27.505
I believe it's the only product really

228
00:16:28.089 --> 00:16:28.750
like that.

229
00:16:29.770 --> 00:16:31.630
Every other multisig is either

230
00:16:32.170 --> 00:16:32.910
do it yourself,

231
00:16:33.770 --> 00:16:38.430
like, you can use Sparrow and then use different hardware manufacturers and create your own multisig,

232
00:16:39.450 --> 00:16:40.430
or you're using,

233
00:16:41.355 --> 00:16:50.654
you know, like, a cost or unchained type of a service. But even then, you're you're somewhat I mean, they they assist dramatically, but it's still it's still you're putting the pieces together.

234
00:16:51.115 --> 00:16:52.735
So that's that's novel.

235
00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:56.569
It's a it's a mobile app. It doesn't use a desktop,

236
00:16:57.990 --> 00:16:58.490
application,

237
00:16:59.430 --> 00:17:14.775
and it's NFT based. So there's a the onboarding experience is can literally be done in, like, forty seconds. If if it's your if it's your first time, maybe it takes you five minutes just because you, you know, you deliberately beat every screen, but it's a really easy onboarding experience.

238
00:17:15.715 --> 00:17:16.755
And it,

239
00:17:17.315 --> 00:17:19.015
it I'd say it optimizes,

240
00:17:20.675 --> 00:17:22.135
reducing foot guns,

241
00:17:22.730 --> 00:17:23.230
reducing,

242
00:17:24.170 --> 00:17:25.070
user error

243
00:17:25.850 --> 00:17:28.030
for key loss, which I think is underappreciated

244
00:17:28.810 --> 00:17:33.950
in the space, and most other products do worse at that. Having said that, there's definitely

245
00:17:34.410 --> 00:17:37.630
many areas of security that can still be improved at Bitkey,

246
00:17:38.975 --> 00:17:48.035
And privacy, there's a lot of improvements that could be improved with the key. So I think the good news there is that a lot of that stuff in the road map can be done without sacrificing

247
00:17:48.575 --> 00:17:51.395
the UX. So, hopefully, it's just a matter of time.

248
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And I also hope that,

249
00:17:54.830 --> 00:18:00.130
this design is copied and improved upon in the industry. That that that's my hope, that it's not just

250
00:18:00.590 --> 00:18:04.529
a one company's product kinda thing, but, you know, I said it's I think it's revolutionary.

251
00:18:04.909 --> 00:18:08.544
If it's revolutionary, that means others others will copy it and make it even

252
00:18:08.924 --> 00:18:09.424
better.

253
00:18:11.405 --> 00:18:11.905
Awesome.

254
00:18:13.085 --> 00:18:16.465
Yeah. I mean, the way I talk about Bitkey is, Bitkey is,

255
00:18:20.125 --> 00:18:20.625
fundamentally,

256
00:18:23.429 --> 00:18:31.529
massive innovate innovation in terms of Bitcoin self custody and holding holding Bitcoin in a self custody way relatively securely

257
00:18:31.909 --> 00:18:35.129
with with very little friction and and very little

258
00:18:36.164 --> 00:18:37.205
possibility of,

259
00:18:37.684 --> 00:18:38.664
messing it up.

260
00:18:39.524 --> 00:18:40.825
Vicky is the first

261
00:18:41.125 --> 00:18:43.225
time that I can, for instance,

262
00:18:45.125 --> 00:18:48.265
give my my dad just give my dad a device

263
00:18:48.725 --> 00:18:50.985
or give a nontechnical friend a device,

264
00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:59.840
have them go through the steps with the mobile app and set it up, and they don't have to ask me any questions. They don't have to watch a tutorial video. They don't have to read any guides.

265
00:19:00.780 --> 00:19:02.640
In two years, they won't just

266
00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:06.720
absolutely freak out after they haven't touched it for years, and

267
00:19:07.174 --> 00:19:10.554
the price is way higher and and not know how to access their Bitcoin.

268
00:19:11.575 --> 00:19:16.315
So it it it definitely reduces the burden of me as someone trying to onboard someone.

269
00:19:17.414 --> 00:19:20.875
And I am in in this interesting position in this conversation, I think,

270
00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:25.620
because me personally, you know, the trade off balance doesn't really make sense for me.

271
00:19:27.760 --> 00:19:30.820
I I personally use Sparrow plus

272
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.965
hardware signers, and I I particularly like Coldcard the best.

273
00:19:36.164 --> 00:19:41.625
But at the same time, I've recommended Bikki to many different people. And so I actually have a Bikki right here,

274
00:19:42.725 --> 00:19:43.225
unopened,

275
00:19:44.164 --> 00:19:45.625
in the box because

276
00:19:46.485 --> 00:19:49.145
I have a bunch of those that I just, like, hand out to people,

277
00:19:49.919 --> 00:19:53.220
and it's a fucking amazing product. Now with all that said,

278
00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:57.700
there are some trade offs in terms of trust.

279
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.220
There are some trade offs in terms of interoperability.

280
00:20:04.165 --> 00:20:05.705
I'm curious, Craig,

281
00:20:07.525 --> 00:20:10.265
where how do you how do you think about the Bitkey?

282
00:20:11.445 --> 00:20:13.625
So first of all, I I just wanna,

283
00:20:14.165 --> 00:20:16.905
concur with both you and Steve in saying,

284
00:20:17.530 --> 00:20:27.070
you know, it really is an innovation. And when it comes to self custody, I really can't have enough praise for innovations in that space. My

285
00:20:27.610 --> 00:20:28.110
goal,

286
00:20:28.490 --> 00:20:30.590
with Sparrow is to promote

287
00:20:30.975 --> 00:20:33.155
self custody and being self sovereign

288
00:20:33.535 --> 00:20:35.155
over your funds. And

289
00:20:35.695 --> 00:20:39.715
anybody working in that space and pushing out products and doing new things

290
00:20:40.015 --> 00:20:41.315
deserves commendation

291
00:20:41.615 --> 00:20:42.995
in my view. So

292
00:20:43.375 --> 00:20:49.520
let that stand as a point on its own. I think, you know, I think it's it's important for me to present

293
00:20:50.059 --> 00:20:51.039
some alternative

294
00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:53.760
points of view here.

295
00:20:55.100 --> 00:21:00.385
The the the thing about the Bitkey is that it is, by design, a closed system. So

296
00:21:00.685 --> 00:21:02.625
if you are using the Bit Bitkey,

297
00:21:03.245 --> 00:21:07.905
you are contained within that space, and it's a comfortable space. It's great UX.

298
00:21:08.285 --> 00:21:13.185
But if you were to want to evolve your self custody journey and, Matt, you mentioned

299
00:21:13.645 --> 00:21:14.945
using Sparrow with

300
00:21:15.710 --> 00:21:17.810
hardware signers, which is a more,

301
00:21:19.070 --> 00:21:20.530
secure in many ways,

302
00:21:21.390 --> 00:21:21.890
setup,

303
00:21:22.270 --> 00:21:24.850
then you have to leave the Bitkey ecosystem

304
00:21:25.230 --> 00:21:25.730
behind.

305
00:21:26.190 --> 00:21:26.930
And that's

306
00:21:27.645 --> 00:21:28.465
somewhat unfortunate.

307
00:21:29.005 --> 00:21:31.025
I think it's maybe an inevitable

308
00:21:31.565 --> 00:21:34.625
consequence, and this is, I think, what we were talking about

309
00:21:34.925 --> 00:21:35.425
is

310
00:21:35.965 --> 00:21:37.265
is that a requirement

311
00:21:37.645 --> 00:21:40.145
of the Bitkey ecosystem? Is that a requirement

312
00:21:40.685 --> 00:21:48.570
of the design choices that went into it, Or can somebody take their stack, which they put on into the Bitkey and evolve from there?

313
00:21:48.870 --> 00:21:50.809
Can they take that on into

314
00:21:51.190 --> 00:21:58.250
a more evolved setup in future? And I think that that's an interesting challenge for the Bitkey team to consider because there's a lot

315
00:21:58.715 --> 00:22:01.695
to be thought about when you're doing doing that.

316
00:22:02.315 --> 00:22:03.375
So, you know,

317
00:22:03.915 --> 00:22:06.895
one thing that we know is that closed so systems

318
00:22:07.275 --> 00:22:08.335
tend to

319
00:22:08.715 --> 00:22:13.050
fare better to sorry, fare worse over the long term than open ones

320
00:22:13.450 --> 00:22:14.910
simply because the universe

321
00:22:15.530 --> 00:22:16.030
is,

322
00:22:16.650 --> 00:22:17.950
tends towards entropy.

323
00:22:18.970 --> 00:22:23.870
And open systems and people working on open systems and coming up with different ideas

324
00:22:24.490 --> 00:22:32.025
handle that truth about the universe better. Right? We have people adapting to things and developing things for different

325
00:22:32.885 --> 00:22:33.385
situations.

326
00:22:33.765 --> 00:22:35.544
And that's why you end up with,

327
00:22:36.645 --> 00:22:37.465
this plethora

328
00:22:37.765 --> 00:22:55.105
of hardware devices that we have today, all these different wallets that can interact with them, and really a very rich ecosystem in which a Bitcoiner can choose the particular setup that matches their use use case. Now I will say that none of those use cases are as easy to use in a two of three multisig

329
00:22:55.485 --> 00:22:59.345
as the VitKey. So, you know, I'm not trying to say that it's all better.

330
00:22:59.725 --> 00:23:01.505
But what I am saying is that

331
00:23:01.885 --> 00:23:08.280
the trade off that you get for that great UX is moving from an oak a sort of open ecosystem

332
00:23:08.660 --> 00:23:14.440
to a closed one or at least a more closed closed one. And that's quite a serious trade off that you make.

333
00:23:15.220 --> 00:23:19.185
The question really is, is that trade off a requirement? Is that

334
00:23:19.745 --> 00:23:26.005
or can that ever be done in a way which allows the Bitkey to also benefit from the kind of open ecosystem

335
00:23:26.305 --> 00:23:28.485
ethos that we have in other areas?

336
00:23:30.865 --> 00:23:40.180
Yeah. I think this this tees up the conversation we were having over signal that we we're we're both like or all three of us are like, hey. Let's let's just do it live. It'll be easier to talk about.

337
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.260
I think, Greg, you provided good context there. So

338
00:23:45.164 --> 00:23:46.945
I'd love to talk about different

339
00:23:47.565 --> 00:23:51.825
hypothetical scenarios, and then we can talk about pro you know, the benefits of of those.

340
00:23:53.804 --> 00:23:57.024
So, I mean, let's let's start with Bitkey today.

341
00:23:57.325 --> 00:24:02.740
As you said, Craig, it's it's a closed system in the sense that you can't use other hardware

342
00:24:03.120 --> 00:24:03.620
devices

343
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.100
with Bitkey like you can with Sparrow.

344
00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:08.419
You also can't use

345
00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:10.419
Sparrow with Bitkey,

346
00:24:11.205 --> 00:24:11.945
or, you know,

347
00:24:12.325 --> 00:24:18.265
another another reason we started chatting is, like, using Sparrow as a watch only wallet for for Bitkey, and

348
00:24:18.804 --> 00:24:21.865
Craig actually found a a a bug or a

349
00:24:22.325 --> 00:24:25.225
I don't know if you'd call it a bug, but the area of improvement

350
00:24:25.940 --> 00:24:31.080
with the derivation path for for Vicky. So thanks for finding that. I think the teams

351
00:24:32.020 --> 00:24:35.080
acknowledges that and is gonna fix it. But I think even with that,

352
00:24:35.540 --> 00:24:42.054
problem, I I think you can still set up a a Sparrow to watch only for wallet for for for Vicky. But still, there's not like

353
00:24:42.815 --> 00:24:47.955
it's pretty closed in that respect. Just so everyone's aware, though, the the code for Vicky

354
00:24:48.414 --> 00:24:49.634
is published source.

355
00:24:51.215 --> 00:24:54.575
Although we can get we can go and get into that rabbit hole as well. It's not as,

356
00:24:57.670 --> 00:25:03.050
you know, we can have a reproducible build and things like that, and it's it's not perfect in that respect.

357
00:25:03.670 --> 00:25:05.690
But, again, there's a road map

358
00:25:06.150 --> 00:25:06.970
to get there,

359
00:25:07.990 --> 00:25:09.705
and a desire to get there.

360
00:25:10.265 --> 00:25:13.485
But, let's go through a hypothetical scenario of,

361
00:25:14.424 --> 00:25:15.725
using other hardware

362
00:25:16.424 --> 00:25:18.125
devices with Bitkey.

363
00:25:19.225 --> 00:25:21.644
I personally think that could make sense.

364
00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:27.320
One of the criticisms of the current Bitkey hardware device is that there's no display,

365
00:25:27.700 --> 00:25:29.320
and it's pretty much, like,

366
00:25:30.340 --> 00:25:33.880
written in stone within Bitcoin culture that you need the display

367
00:25:34.340 --> 00:25:37.080
on your hardware device to verify a transaction.

368
00:25:37.924 --> 00:25:38.424
And,

369
00:25:38.804 --> 00:25:49.705
there's you know, it's not not arguable that there's benefits to to doing that. And the the Viki hardware device doesn't have that. So maybe a future Viki hardware device does have that.

370
00:25:50.245 --> 00:25:51.544
It's already been published.

371
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:54.460
What can be done with the current Viki product

372
00:25:54.840 --> 00:25:58.460
is that you can have a a I mean, I think the team called it

373
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.059
server as a screen,

374
00:26:00.520 --> 00:26:01.020
but

375
00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:04.940
you can send a transaction verification message to

376
00:26:05.320 --> 00:26:06.140
a a user

377
00:26:06.525 --> 00:26:10.705
over SMS or email, or they can view it on a in a web browser on another device,

378
00:26:11.565 --> 00:26:15.585
to verify a transaction. We can get into that rabbit hole as well if you want.

379
00:26:16.445 --> 00:26:24.830
But, you know, another solution would be like, hey. The Bitkey ecosystem and and, like, services and software can work with Trezor's, cold cards, ledgers

380
00:26:25.370 --> 00:26:26.030
as well.

381
00:26:27.770 --> 00:26:33.150
And I personally think that's a that's a solid direction. I think that does add value for

382
00:26:33.794 --> 00:26:34.294
users.

383
00:26:35.394 --> 00:26:37.815
You could imagine instead of having your keys,

384
00:26:38.674 --> 00:26:50.580
on your mobile phone and your Vicky device, you could have one on Vicky device and one on a cold card instead of on your on your phone. And I think that that would definitely improve security.

385
00:26:51.039 --> 00:27:03.615
I don't think you sacrifice user experience that much. It would be there'd be a little bit more steps and complications there because it's not fully vertically integrated, but it wouldn't be that bad, and it it would be a more secure system than the current Viki.

386
00:27:05.035 --> 00:27:07.215
Or you can imagine a direction going, like,

387
00:27:08.075 --> 00:27:08.655
a different

388
00:27:09.355 --> 00:27:16.010
multisig setup than two of three. You could have three of five and and have more. It's certainly one advantage of using, like, Sparrow

389
00:27:17.110 --> 00:27:18.650
with in a three of five

390
00:27:19.029 --> 00:27:22.250
is that you can use different vendors for your hardware devices,

391
00:27:22.789 --> 00:27:25.370
and that reduces supply chain attack

392
00:27:25.924 --> 00:27:29.145
that that vector of of, security risk.

393
00:27:29.924 --> 00:27:34.505
So that that kind of openness for Vicky in the future does make sense to me.

394
00:27:35.605 --> 00:27:36.585
What what

395
00:27:37.125 --> 00:27:40.184
was making less sense to me when we were chatting about this is

396
00:27:41.410 --> 00:27:50.070
integration with Sparrow. And I'm definitely not I love Sparrow. I'm not a hater of Sparrow at all. Go ahead, Matt. Did you have a question? Let's just pull let's just pull it back real quick.

397
00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:54.870
To those that are not aware, the current Bitkey setup is the Bitkey device

398
00:27:55.795 --> 00:27:58.455
holds a key, your mobile phone holds a key,

399
00:27:58.755 --> 00:28:00.615
and block server holds a key.

400
00:28:01.795 --> 00:28:04.215
The Bitkey device does not have a screen on it,

401
00:28:05.235 --> 00:28:09.975
but my understanding of the setup is that the Bitkey server is also verifying

402
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.500
stuff so that if your mobile the the concern is if your mobile phone gets compromised.

403
00:28:15.120 --> 00:28:19.620
Your mobile phone is showing you an incorrect receive address or if your mobile phone is actually

404
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:25.125
constructing a transaction that is sending somewhere else. That that is not where you think it's going.

405
00:28:25.505 --> 00:28:32.485
And these two scenarios, usually, on, like, a cold card, for instance, you would verify it on on the screen of the secure device itself.

406
00:28:32.785 --> 00:28:35.685
Vicky doesn't have a a screen in that situation.

407
00:28:38.410 --> 00:28:39.789
But that setup

408
00:28:40.410 --> 00:28:43.789
is what also makes it incredibly user friendly to use,

409
00:28:44.490 --> 00:28:49.789
where the user is simply interacting with just a mobile app. They're getting reasonable security guarantees,

410
00:28:51.044 --> 00:28:55.144
and all it takes for them to send a transaction is to scan their fingerprint

411
00:28:55.445 --> 00:28:56.505
and tap this

412
00:28:56.965 --> 00:28:59.705
really solid built device on the back of their phone.

413
00:29:01.845 --> 00:29:05.225
Okay. I think that that was important context. Now, I mean, Craig,

414
00:29:05.830 --> 00:29:08.410
what is what is your perspective here? Let's

415
00:29:09.430 --> 00:29:10.890
let's put it back together.

416
00:29:11.510 --> 00:29:15.130
Steve, you know, everything you've just said sounds really great.

417
00:29:15.590 --> 00:29:17.850
You know, I think we are in actual broad

418
00:29:18.175 --> 00:29:19.215
agreement here.

419
00:29:20.095 --> 00:29:25.155
I don't think given what you said, you know, it's if you actually consider the Bitkey

420
00:29:25.855 --> 00:29:37.059
device, and I have one in my hand here, you know, it's it's certainly, on its own, makes up for a poorer hardware wallet than most other hardware wallets you can buy because it doesn't have the screen. It wasn't designed

421
00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:40.179
in that way. So I think from the perspective

422
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:40.980
of

423
00:29:41.360 --> 00:29:43.059
kind of making it a standalone

424
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.365
hardware signer, it doesn't make a great deal of sense.

425
00:29:47.405 --> 00:29:48.385
From the perspective

426
00:29:48.765 --> 00:29:49.265
of

427
00:29:49.645 --> 00:29:54.304
should the mobile key, the the key stored on the mobile app,

428
00:29:54.765 --> 00:29:59.505
be exposed so that you can, you know, construct your own two of three

429
00:29:59.885 --> 00:30:00.385
in

430
00:30:01.730 --> 00:30:03.910
Sparrow and kind of move outside the Bitkey

431
00:30:04.370 --> 00:30:04.870
ecosystem,

432
00:30:05.810 --> 00:30:12.550
obviously, you're then asking the user to deal with private key material, and there's a lot of risks with that. And I completely understand

433
00:30:13.024 --> 00:30:18.485
the decision of the Bitkey team not to do do that. So that that makes sense. So I think

434
00:30:18.865 --> 00:30:24.245
we're in broad agreement in terms of of, you know, does it make sense for to take the current

435
00:30:24.625 --> 00:30:25.445
Bitkey system

436
00:30:26.029 --> 00:30:36.770
and expose the different parts, split split them up, and kind of just transpose them into an a sort of open Bitcoin ecosystem. I think that kind of really,

437
00:30:37.710 --> 00:30:41.535
undermines the original intention and the design choices that you made.

438
00:30:42.735 --> 00:30:49.635
Now that doesn't preclude, as you said, the ability to work in future to take that that really great UX that

439
00:30:50.015 --> 00:30:50.995
Bitkey has

440
00:30:51.375 --> 00:30:52.835
and to bring it into,

441
00:30:53.535 --> 00:30:57.620
the Bitcoin kind of open ecosystem and allow it to,

442
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:04.820
interact with other hardware signers. So that's that's a future that I I'm really interested in and would like to

443
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:06.660
explore more because,

444
00:31:07.760 --> 00:31:14.735
that I think, you know, really adds a great deal. Not that the Bitkey is not adding already, but it really adds a great deal

445
00:31:15.035 --> 00:31:16.495
to the space that we're in.

446
00:31:18.155 --> 00:31:23.135
And and maybe, for a little bit more context for the audience who hasn't used Bitkey, the

447
00:31:23.580 --> 00:31:29.200
one thing that makes the UX so great, and it sounds like the three of us agree that the UX is great, is recovery.

448
00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:30.000
So,

449
00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:31.440
there's just

450
00:31:32.620 --> 00:31:33.100
there's

451
00:31:33.980 --> 00:31:41.995
it it really minimizes the chances that a customer is going to lose their Bitcoin on their own. So if we're assuming no.

452
00:31:42.535 --> 00:31:46.554
You know, you're not being attacked by the government or North Korea or whatever,

453
00:31:47.335 --> 00:31:49.035
but you just, you know,

454
00:31:49.360 --> 00:31:58.740
it I I think a lot of people hesitate to self custody because they are afraid they're going to mess up. They don't spend hundreds of hours like the three of us and maybe a lot of people in the audience

455
00:31:59.360 --> 00:32:03.495
studying OPSEC and all the all these different, systems. So,

456
00:32:04.215 --> 00:32:11.515
if you lose your phone, you can easily recover. If you lose your device, you can easily recover. If you lose your phone and your device,

457
00:32:12.615 --> 00:32:17.675
incredibly, you can recover. And and the audience might wonder how because that's two of the three keys.

458
00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:24.159
Well, the key on the mobile phone is is encrypted and backed up in either iCloud or Google Cloud,

459
00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:32.559
and it can be recovered. And and it's all these recovery services are done while block only retains one key.

460
00:32:33.225 --> 00:32:37.165
So there's no no recovery scenario where block has two keys and could confiscate

461
00:32:37.545 --> 00:32:39.085
the the the Bitcoin.

462
00:32:40.265 --> 00:32:40.765
So

463
00:32:41.305 --> 00:32:42.285
the that

464
00:32:42.825 --> 00:32:45.405
that recovery UX, if that can be

465
00:32:45.945 --> 00:32:46.595
brought to,

466
00:32:48.300 --> 00:32:56.240
you know, other hardware devices as well, being part of that recovery service, I think that would be a benefit to to the ecosystem and and and users.

467
00:32:57.260 --> 00:33:01.660
I mean, I like the idea of going through scenarios here, like practical scenarios,

468
00:33:03.434 --> 00:33:07.695
and and discussing how Vicky currently handles it versus how it could be improved.

469
00:33:08.635 --> 00:33:12.015
You mentioned here, like, North Korea, the NSA.

470
00:33:12.635 --> 00:33:13.934
So we have a concept

471
00:33:15.630 --> 00:33:22.610
that is it's called threat modeling. Right? It's like, who is in your threat model? Who are you trying to protect yourself from? I would actually probably go

472
00:33:24.190 --> 00:33:37.105
I I Bitkey is probably North Korea proof. Like, I mean, there was a recent case with Bybit getting hacked by North Korea. Like, they probably would have been better off using Bitcoin in a Bitkey than whatever their Ethereum multisig setup was.

473
00:33:38.045 --> 00:33:40.385
And we could go down that rabbit hole. But,

474
00:33:41.325 --> 00:33:42.065
the biggest,

475
00:33:42.605 --> 00:33:47.460
you know, concern in this threat model is probably, like, an NSA type actor,

476
00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:50.419
a US based government actor,

477
00:33:51.120 --> 00:33:55.460
because things are you're you're downloading an an iPhone app.

478
00:33:56.235 --> 00:34:02.175
So Apple would need to be compromised. You're using you're using cloud services, whether that's Google or Apple.

479
00:34:03.755 --> 00:34:05.855
So, like, in a threat modeling scenario,

480
00:34:06.315 --> 00:34:07.215
that's probably

481
00:34:08.235 --> 00:34:09.375
the biggest risk,

482
00:34:10.509 --> 00:34:18.369
or block trying to be outwardly malicious, which I would, like, kind of group into that same kind of NSA type threat model. So for most people,

483
00:34:19.150 --> 00:34:27.385
NSA is not in their threat model. Big US company tech companies are not in their threat model of colluding with each other like a block and an apple colluding with each other.

484
00:34:28.005 --> 00:34:30.825
But what is in their threat model is them losing

485
00:34:31.365 --> 00:34:32.265
losing Bitcoin.

486
00:34:32.565 --> 00:34:35.305
So what let me let me go through a scenario that I've seen.

487
00:34:36.725 --> 00:34:37.225
I

488
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:40.260
have have friends that

489
00:34:40.640 --> 00:34:43.859
that have ledger wallets, and they're using ledger and single sig.

490
00:34:44.640 --> 00:34:48.260
They're not using it with Sparo Wallet. They're using it with Ledger's mobile app.

491
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.220
They're not spending Bitcoin. They're simply saving Bitcoin,

492
00:34:53.835 --> 00:34:59.055
and they keep just sending to their same receive address. Maybe they have auto withdrawals enabled and they're just,

493
00:34:59.675 --> 00:35:06.974
they're reusing addresses. They're definitely not using coin join, and they're not even creating new addresses and they're just sending it to their ledger wallet.

494
00:35:07.515 --> 00:35:08.494
And now ledger

495
00:35:09.690 --> 00:35:14.589
has seed backups, which I think we should talk about the fact that Bitkey doesn't have seed backups.

496
00:35:16.970 --> 00:35:20.250
So they're supposed to set up, you know, their 12 or 24

497
00:35:20.250 --> 00:35:22.830
backup phrase word when they first set up their Ledger.

498
00:35:23.575 --> 00:35:25.275
Now there's two issues here.

499
00:35:25.975 --> 00:35:27.515
The first issue is

500
00:35:29.575 --> 00:35:35.115
they record it correctly, but they don't keep those seed words safe and someone gets access to them and they steal their money.

501
00:35:36.695 --> 00:35:38.075
The second issue is

502
00:35:39.359 --> 00:35:42.740
they lose their seed words or they write them down incorrectly.

503
00:35:43.279 --> 00:35:55.565
And Ledger, for instance, doesn't give you any way of checking what those seed words are. So in four years, five years, your Bitcoin's worth 10 x, 20 x, 30 x. There's no way for you to verify that you actually wrote down those seed words correctly,

504
00:35:56.265 --> 00:35:57.245
without reinitializing

505
00:35:57.545 --> 00:36:03.165
a whole new Ledger Wallet. That's just an issue with Ledgers. This is the most common hardware wallet in the market,

506
00:36:04.185 --> 00:36:04.765
the Ledgers.

507
00:36:05.390 --> 00:36:09.250
The second thing is if you forget your PIN on a ledger, you have three tries.

508
00:36:10.190 --> 00:36:15.250
And no one thinks they forgot their PIN on the first try. So they put in the PIN the first time, they get it wrong,

509
00:36:16.030 --> 00:36:16.770
and then

510
00:36:17.310 --> 00:36:19.570
they have two more tries. They usually

511
00:36:19.950 --> 00:36:27.205
go, oh, I'm I'm good. I remember my PIN. They put it in again. They get it wrong. They have one more try. If they get it wrong at that point,

512
00:36:27.585 --> 00:36:28.725
their ledger wipes.

513
00:36:29.105 --> 00:36:31.845
At that point is usually when I get the panicked call.

514
00:36:33.185 --> 00:36:37.770
Them freaking freaking the hell out. They can't find their seed phrase. They have one more PIN entry.

515
00:36:38.390 --> 00:36:39.930
Bitkey fixes that.

516
00:36:40.790 --> 00:36:41.850
That whole scenario

517
00:36:43.590 --> 00:36:44.090
can't

518
00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:46.010
can't happen on a Bitkey.

519
00:36:46.950 --> 00:36:49.770
And and to me, that's why it's a fundamental improvement.

520
00:36:50.605 --> 00:36:51.985
Now at the same time,

521
00:36:54.845 --> 00:36:55.345
I

522
00:36:56.285 --> 00:37:05.425
me personally, I like seeds. Like, I think seeds are an amazing invention. I think it's amazing that I can have a seed from a cold card and then just put it into Sparrow Wallet.

523
00:37:07.650 --> 00:37:10.550
And, like, I don't even need a cold card to restore it,

524
00:37:11.650 --> 00:37:12.550
which is crazy.

525
00:37:13.010 --> 00:37:15.350
That's, like, fundamentally incredibly empowering.

526
00:37:17.744 --> 00:37:24.644
But I don't know, like, I don't know if you can have both. Like, I don't know if you can have both in the same device. I don't know if that makes sense or not.

527
00:37:25.105 --> 00:37:33.180
But anyway, I'm kinda rambling, but, like, that's how I think about it. Like, I don't know if, like, do we want the Bitkey do we want the Bitkey to do everything, or should it just

528
00:37:34.140 --> 00:37:42.559
be like, that's what I I'm I'm curious in Craig's opinion here because I think I know Steve's opinion. But I'm curious in Craig's opinion. Like, do we want the Bitkey to have

529
00:37:42.940 --> 00:37:47.760
power user features and, like, advanced options and all this other stuff at the detriment of,

530
00:37:48.905 --> 00:37:50.925
you know, people foot gunning themselves?

531
00:37:51.225 --> 00:38:00.845
Or or is does it make sense to have, like, a very user friendly wallet that's, like, a stepping stone outside of custodial? They these people are probably using Coinbase or using a Ledger Wallet or something.

532
00:38:01.329 --> 00:38:05.030
And then, hopefully, then they upgrade to, you know, a cold card or

533
00:38:05.650 --> 00:38:06.150
something

534
00:38:06.450 --> 00:38:09.349
or a multisig setup at at some point in the future.

535
00:38:10.609 --> 00:38:11.910
Yeah. So, you know,

536
00:38:12.690 --> 00:38:16.065
I think the the answer is, you know, no. We don't want

537
00:38:16.545 --> 00:38:20.865
we don't we don't want to detract from the great UX that Bitkey has built.

538
00:38:21.345 --> 00:38:22.645
We don't want to make

539
00:38:23.025 --> 00:38:27.125
that worse just because we've always done things in a different way in the past.

540
00:38:27.425 --> 00:38:33.740
I think where, you know, where it's it's interesting to explore future direction, though, is

541
00:38:34.200 --> 00:38:37.980
let's say that somebody has started off with the Hot Wallet,

542
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:39.500
moved to the Bitkey,

543
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:44.795
started to stuck set, started to really understand Bitcoin better,

544
00:38:45.095 --> 00:38:48.315
started to put more and more into it until it becomes a substantial

545
00:38:48.695 --> 00:38:50.235
part of their life savings.

546
00:38:51.015 --> 00:39:15.605
You know? At some point, does it make sense for them to say, you know, I could be more secure than I am with this device. I should upgrade. And I think that that does make sense. I think there comes not necessarily for everyone, but there does come a point for many people where they'll they'll be, you know what? I hear that there are different ways of doing this. I'm gonna explore it, and they're just gonna go off and do that. Now

547
00:39:15.984 --> 00:39:22.325
what the unfortunate thing is they didn't have to leave the Bitkey ecosystem behind in in a com complete way. They can't

548
00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:25.690
they can't kind of take that device and that experience

549
00:39:26.070 --> 00:39:31.770
and that, familiarity that they have with it along with them. And that's a bit of a pity, really, because

550
00:39:32.150 --> 00:39:44.055
that's how people kind of move from single sync to multi sync, for example, is they're really familiar with one device, and they can kind of go on using the same interfaces, whether it's the hardware device interface

551
00:39:44.515 --> 00:39:49.575
or the soft software wallet. They can kind of go on using that, and they can take that familiarity

552
00:39:49.955 --> 00:39:50.455
onwards.

553
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:55.260
With the Bitkey, you can't. So that's that's one of the big trade offs. And for many people,

554
00:39:55.560 --> 00:39:57.420
just that will mean that they,

555
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:03.020
either, a, won't do it, or if they do do it, they'll mess it up. Right? So there's kind of this learning,

556
00:40:04.625 --> 00:40:20.609
barrier that we have at this current point. You know, I think what we would ideally want is that the Bitkey learning experience and that comfortable environment that they've built can be used to evolve things to the next level. You know, if we if we look at what the Bitkey is,

557
00:40:21.410 --> 00:40:34.285
you know, it's it's it's it does make certain trade offs in order to achieve the UX that it has. So, for example, the Bitkey app is really where the u the the user expresses their intent

558
00:40:34.744 --> 00:40:36.204
of what they want to do.

559
00:40:36.665 --> 00:40:41.405
And the device, because it doesn't have a screen, it can it can authent authenticate

560
00:40:41.785 --> 00:40:44.925
who the user is. It can say, right. We could based on the fingerprint,

561
00:40:45.590 --> 00:40:48.970
we can tell that the user is actually the user, but it can't

562
00:40:49.270 --> 00:40:52.650
do anything about trying to verify what is the user's intent.

563
00:40:52.950 --> 00:40:54.250
And in the same way,

564
00:40:54.710 --> 00:40:57.930
the server can't really I mean, it's a server. It can't really

565
00:40:58.470 --> 00:41:05.765
verify what the user's intent is. You can do certain things like set up spending limits which require the hardware device or not,

566
00:41:06.065 --> 00:41:07.665
but that's the kind of,

567
00:41:09.265 --> 00:41:09.845
you know,

568
00:41:10.305 --> 00:41:12.565
limitations, if you will, of that particular

569
00:41:12.945 --> 00:41:15.205
set setup. Now if you have a

570
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:16.580
more traditional,

571
00:41:17.200 --> 00:41:22.340
say, two of three, you are going to not only have the software wallet, for example,

572
00:41:22.720 --> 00:41:24.900
Sparrow, where you construct the transaction,

573
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:28.660
but then you're then gonna have two hardware devices

574
00:41:29.200 --> 00:41:29.940
with screens

575
00:41:30.474 --> 00:41:34.095
where you're gonna be able to verify what it is that you're actually doing. So

576
00:41:34.395 --> 00:41:37.775
on a number of different levels there, you've got more verification

577
00:41:38.234 --> 00:41:54.420
going on, and that's the kind of more secure setup for anyone that's listening to this with the Bitkey that you might wanna consider in future. As I say, my desire would be that the the great UX that the Bitkey has built is part of that more enhanced setup,

578
00:41:55.040 --> 00:41:58.245
and I don't have to kind of leave that environment behind.

579
00:42:00.645 --> 00:42:08.025
So that this is a good so this is a good part of the discussion because this is where we or where I got stuck in our our previous text based conversation.

580
00:42:08.805 --> 00:42:10.185
I agree with you that

581
00:42:10.539 --> 00:42:11.759
there's gonna be,

582
00:42:12.299 --> 00:42:21.039
you know, peep people are gonna start their self custody journey with Vicky and then at some point wanna graduate to a more sophisticated

583
00:42:21.339 --> 00:42:23.615
setup that is more more secure.

584
00:42:25.355 --> 00:42:31.615
And that could be some future road map that key you know, that key just gets more and more secure and and

585
00:42:31.915 --> 00:42:33.455
or or offers a new

586
00:42:33.915 --> 00:42:35.935
product line or whatever. That's one option.

587
00:42:36.869 --> 00:42:41.289
But let's let's talk about an option where they upgrade to,

588
00:42:42.789 --> 00:42:47.289
a different hard hardware device or set of hardware devices or to to Sparrow.

589
00:42:49.595 --> 00:42:51.934
Where I get hung up on is if

590
00:42:52.315 --> 00:42:52.474
they

591
00:42:53.355 --> 00:42:55.535
if that person upgrades to Sparrow,

592
00:42:56.795 --> 00:42:57.535
they would

593
00:42:58.075 --> 00:42:59.295
at least with today's

594
00:42:59.835 --> 00:43:03.694
the way the product works today, they'd lose all the recovery UX

595
00:43:04.089 --> 00:43:06.910
that is currently built in to to Bitkey.

596
00:43:07.369 --> 00:43:07.869
So

597
00:43:08.250 --> 00:43:13.069
they'd really just be completely switching from the Bitkey experience they had

598
00:43:13.530 --> 00:43:14.829
to another experience,

599
00:43:15.210 --> 00:43:15.869
for example,

600
00:43:16.170 --> 00:43:16.670
Sparrow.

601
00:43:18.435 --> 00:43:23.735
And and they can do that today because they can just, you know, they can just move move their funds from

602
00:43:24.355 --> 00:43:27.895
their Viki wallet to a a new wallet they create with Sparrow. So

603
00:43:28.595 --> 00:43:29.655
help me understand,

604
00:43:31.730 --> 00:43:39.830
a world where they they retain the Bitkey experience, but it gets enhanced because now they're driving it through,

605
00:43:40.930 --> 00:43:52.184
in Sparrow. And I think this I mean, this question applies whether you're talking about Electrum or any other kind of, like, software front end experience, but we'll use Sparrow as an example since since that's what you work on.

606
00:43:53.045 --> 00:44:00.520
Sure. So, you know, I think we're at the sort of more hand wavy part of the discussion here because, obviously, I don't quite know exactly,

607
00:44:01.580 --> 00:44:05.480
what can be done and what what can't. But let's let's say, as a hypothetical,

608
00:44:06.020 --> 00:44:06.760
we have

609
00:44:07.300 --> 00:44:08.920
a Frost based multisig

610
00:44:09.460 --> 00:44:11.320
where we have this kind of,

611
00:44:11.700 --> 00:44:12.760
MPC like

612
00:44:13.115 --> 00:44:13.615
situation,

613
00:44:14.075 --> 00:44:15.694
and then the Bitkey ecosystem

614
00:44:16.155 --> 00:44:23.295
was one of the the the keys in that. Right? So it wasn't trying to break up the Bitkey and say, well, use the device on its own.

615
00:44:23.755 --> 00:44:27.214
It was taking that entire ecosystem and saying, here's a really,

616
00:44:27.595 --> 00:44:40.750
great UX experience, which has got these recovery pods built into it, and it's forming part of this Frost setup, which has then got these other devices in it. Right? And let's say we had some other device, you know, called,

617
00:44:41.849 --> 00:44:42.329
you know, the

618
00:44:43.075 --> 00:44:47.175
we we already have a bit bit box, but say, like, the the bit bit lock,

619
00:44:47.635 --> 00:44:54.135
which was similar to a bit key and also had these recovery parts built into it. You could see how we could then have a multisig

620
00:44:54.515 --> 00:45:02.540
where no one was ever having to deal with seeds or make seed backups. You could then have recovery parts of all of these different devices,

621
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:11.740
and you would then be able to transfer that Bitkey experience into that. Now, I don't know whether that could be done, but I it's definitely an interesting area, I think, to explore.

622
00:45:13.125 --> 00:45:14.985
Yeah. I I think to

623
00:45:15.845 --> 00:45:26.265
retain because there is there's a lot of complexity in the recovery software that's hidden from the user, but the complexity was from, you know, the big Vicky software development team had to to build it out.

624
00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:28.120
A lot of it's on

625
00:45:28.580 --> 00:45:29.560
Vicky servers.

626
00:45:30.180 --> 00:45:34.120
So it seems to me, like, for it to be opened up to to, like, a Sparrow,

627
00:45:34.820 --> 00:45:35.320
either,

628
00:45:36.580 --> 00:45:37.080
Vicky

629
00:45:37.620 --> 00:45:41.000
product would have to evolve into well, it it's a service

630
00:45:41.505 --> 00:45:44.404
that is available to other software front ends,

631
00:45:45.025 --> 00:45:45.525
or

632
00:45:46.785 --> 00:45:47.684
those recovery

633
00:45:49.105 --> 00:45:51.525
paths would need to be turned into

634
00:45:52.144 --> 00:45:53.285
a standard protocol

635
00:45:53.664 --> 00:45:55.684
so that it's not bit keep proprietary.

636
00:45:56.380 --> 00:45:58.880
And it's not just their product and business.

637
00:45:59.260 --> 00:46:00.240
But and anyone

638
00:46:01.099 --> 00:46:02.160
else could also

639
00:46:02.460 --> 00:46:02.960
implement

640
00:46:03.580 --> 00:46:09.599
the the services using that protocol. And then the sparrows of the world could and and other wallets could

641
00:46:10.045 --> 00:46:14.625
support that protocol and also not become dependent on one company and one and one service.

642
00:46:15.005 --> 00:46:17.585
So I think either either of those are

643
00:46:18.365 --> 00:46:22.080
either either of those are possible. The the latter one is that's a

644
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:23.780
pretty extraordinary

645
00:46:24.160 --> 00:46:24.660
effort.

646
00:46:25.520 --> 00:46:29.620
It it would need like, I think the ecosystem would need to come to a conclusion. Like,

647
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:32.020
yes, Vicky

648
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:33.700
did create a revolutionary

649
00:46:34.240 --> 00:46:34.740
recovery

650
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:36.340
UX and design.

651
00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:37.380
The whole

652
00:46:37.695 --> 00:46:47.715
or, like, big parts of the ecosystem need to adopt that. It's clearly the way to go. And then we'd get more movement on, like, oh, there should be a protocol for this. We can't depend on on just one company,

653
00:46:48.175 --> 00:46:49.235
or one service.

654
00:46:50.810 --> 00:46:53.630
That that's a future I'd love to see. I think we're

655
00:46:54.330 --> 00:46:57.390
we're not there yet. I mean, at least a few of us

656
00:46:57.690 --> 00:47:01.470
think it's a pretty pretty special UX and would like to see broader

657
00:47:02.570 --> 00:47:14.015
interest in adoption, but I don't think we're we're there yet. But but is that is that sort of what you I mean, Craig, you said it's sort of hand wavy, but is that is that the the waving the hands in the right direction? What what I just said?

658
00:47:15.195 --> 00:47:25.070
Not not not really. I mean, I just wanna as a very simple kind of example, let's say that the the Bitkey app had a QR scanner in it. It was able

659
00:47:25.450 --> 00:47:26.750
to scan a PSPT

660
00:47:27.369 --> 00:47:27.869
from

661
00:47:28.170 --> 00:47:30.430
Sparrow, which was a Frost kind of,

662
00:47:30.890 --> 00:47:31.390
setup.

663
00:47:31.930 --> 00:47:33.790
And then it was able to

664
00:47:34.345 --> 00:47:42.365
kind of combine behind the scenes its various keys into the single frost key and then use that to then sign the frost based

665
00:47:43.705 --> 00:47:49.085
multisig. So it's sort of a multisig of a multisig, if that makes any sense. Now in that sense,

666
00:47:49.390 --> 00:47:50.130
the recovery

667
00:47:50.510 --> 00:47:53.170
methods that are built into the Bitkey can remain

668
00:47:53.470 --> 00:47:54.770
what they are, and

669
00:47:55.150 --> 00:48:04.195
the Bitlock, this kind of imaginary company that I'm making up, can have their own recovery methods, and they then form the second key of this kind of,

670
00:48:05.295 --> 00:48:05.795
more,

671
00:48:06.255 --> 00:48:09.395
I guess, you could say, the sort of multisig of multisig.

672
00:48:10.575 --> 00:48:22.450
Again, I'm I'm sort of saying this in a hand wavy way. I'm not sure exactly how possible this is, but given that Schnorr gives us the addition of keys and all of these different properties, I would think that it is.

673
00:48:22.830 --> 00:48:27.010
So what I would like to see is actually people coming to market with different approaches,

674
00:48:27.710 --> 00:48:31.730
and that obviously leads to robustness. We all know that

675
00:48:32.285 --> 00:48:42.945
a multi vendor, multi sig is the best that we have in the market at this time. Right? If you want the most secure setup, that's the best you can do. So imagine what we had if we had

676
00:48:43.245 --> 00:48:43.985
these different

677
00:48:44.610 --> 00:48:50.150
companies bringing these products to market with different recovery methods, all of which, by the way, have their own

678
00:48:50.450 --> 00:48:58.150
failure mechanisms built into them. They always do. So if we had different recovery methods built in, we could then protect the multisig

679
00:48:58.505 --> 00:49:12.859
as a whole because we would then have different ways of being able to or at least more defense against a certain kind of attack. Right? You would then have to attack this thing in multiple different different ways. So that's kind of what I'm thinking towards is kind of leveraging

680
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:14.859
the properties of Schnorr

681
00:49:15.160 --> 00:49:17.560
to be able to give us this kind of,

682
00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:24.380
this way of kind of adding things together and adding security on top of what we already have.

683
00:49:24.975 --> 00:49:27.235
I see. I let let me I I think I understand,

684
00:49:28.015 --> 00:49:30.435
your perspective now. So for example,

685
00:49:31.855 --> 00:49:32.915
okay. So today,

686
00:49:33.215 --> 00:49:37.470
Vicky has three keys. There's one on the device, one on the phone, one on Vicky's server.

687
00:49:37.976 --> 00:49:38.476
The

688
00:49:38.990 --> 00:49:40.130
a future version

689
00:49:40.430 --> 00:49:43.330
could the the the key that is on the phone,

690
00:49:43.950 --> 00:49:47.710
it instead of just being a single sig key, it could be,

691
00:49:48.349 --> 00:49:52.290
a composition like you're saying. It could be itself a two of three,

692
00:49:53.115 --> 00:50:00.255
which I could use Sparrow to manage that two of three because those other three keys could be I could have those on, like, cold card, ledger, Trezor.

693
00:50:00.635 --> 00:50:01.695
Sparrow combines

694
00:50:02.155 --> 00:50:02.975
it, and then,

695
00:50:03.515 --> 00:50:09.410
that would that would be one one of the three keys in in the big key system, but it it does it does harden

696
00:50:09.950 --> 00:50:12.210
it because it makes it way harder to compromise

697
00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:14.210
that mobile key.

698
00:50:14.670 --> 00:50:16.530
No. I think what he's saying is

699
00:50:17.470 --> 00:50:19.810
the two of three that is bit key

700
00:50:20.190 --> 00:50:22.050
could in effect be one key

701
00:50:22.545 --> 00:50:26.805
in, like, a three of five. Okay. So, like, you have the Bitkey

702
00:50:28.224 --> 00:50:34.800
stack as a signer, and then you maybe have a cold card as a signer, and then you have a seed signer as a signer. And then so that's a

703
00:50:35.120 --> 00:50:44.820
overwhelming overarching two of three, but the bit key portion of that is itself a two of three. So you don't have to deal with seeds on the bit key side. Craig, that's kind of what you're saying. Right?

704
00:50:45.120 --> 00:50:51.684
Yep. That's that's it. Yeah. So that that kind of gives you a way of being able to say, right, I'm used to this Bitkey.

705
00:50:52.065 --> 00:50:54.565
I've been using it for many years, but I'm getting

706
00:50:54.944 --> 00:51:06.940
nervous about the amounts that's all in in in it. I wanna upgrade to the next level, but I don't really wanna leave the Bitkey behind. How can I do that? And this is one way I can imagine that you might be able to do it in future.

707
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:16.694
Okay. Thank you for clearing that. And I'm glad we're doing the show instead of signal because that what you're proposing is actually the simplest out of all these scenarios I was thinking in my head.

708
00:51:17.795 --> 00:51:20.135
So I think that's I think that's pretty interesting.

709
00:51:21.155 --> 00:51:28.375
I'll, I'll definitely bring this back to the Big E team and maybe some of them will will listen to this show too. But I I think that's, I think that's pretty compelling.

710
00:51:29.319 --> 00:51:29.799
I,

711
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:35.819
awesome. I mean, I think my biggest concern is the lack of screen and specifically verifying,

712
00:51:37.240 --> 00:51:38.299
received transactions,

713
00:51:39.720 --> 00:51:40.780
deposit addresses.

714
00:51:42.085 --> 00:51:52.665
And, yes, this has been mostly a hypothetical concern. We haven't really seen this type of attack in the wild. We haven't even seen, like, Coinbase deposit addresses, for instance, be replaced man in the middle,

715
00:51:53.205 --> 00:51:55.790
and there's no way to verify those. The

716
00:51:56.970 --> 00:52:03.310
the single easiest way would be to have a or not the single easiest way. The way to do it right now without any hardware change

717
00:52:03.930 --> 00:52:06.110
would be some kind of watch only capability

718
00:52:06.410 --> 00:52:08.670
in Sparrow. I heard you mention that,

719
00:52:09.925 --> 00:52:12.905
but it'd be nice if someone could just have

720
00:52:13.605 --> 00:52:20.825
their full wallet on Sparrow in a watch only way, and they could verify receive addresses there before they send to the mobile app.

721
00:52:21.925 --> 00:52:24.345
I don't think that's possible right now.

722
00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:27.540
I know there is it is possible?

723
00:52:28.080 --> 00:52:34.500
It is. Yes. So right now, the Bitkey app, you can export the output descriptor of your wallet,

724
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:42.625
and you can put it into Sparrow. There's a little issue around the derivation parts, but, you know, you just have to turn off derivation validation

725
00:52:42.925 --> 00:52:45.345
in Sparrow in the general settings.

726
00:52:45.725 --> 00:52:51.425
But beyond that, you can it's very easy. You just copy and paste that little that string, all of those

727
00:52:52.445 --> 00:52:59.570
numbers. That is, you put that into where the output descriptor goes or you put it into a file and you just import that into

728
00:52:59.870 --> 00:53:00.370
Sparrow,

729
00:53:00.830 --> 00:53:19.935
and your Bitkey wallet will appear there. Now you obviously can't sign. So it is just a watch on only at that point, but you certainly can use it to get the receive address to verify things. So that's a very helpful way. And then that's kind of what actually kicked this whole thing off was kind of for the first time, I said to myself, wow. It's really interesting.

730
00:53:20.235 --> 00:53:20.815
The Bitkey,

731
00:53:21.275 --> 00:53:24.575
ecosystem is taking part in the broader kind of open

732
00:53:25.020 --> 00:53:27.680
Bitcoin coins sort of ecosystem that we're all in.

733
00:53:28.220 --> 00:53:29.360
But real quick,

734
00:53:30.060 --> 00:53:32.480
I still don't see how that protects a user

735
00:53:32.780 --> 00:53:34.160
on transaction verification

736
00:53:34.460 --> 00:53:34.960
because

737
00:53:35.420 --> 00:53:35.920
because

738
00:53:36.380 --> 00:53:45.055
you can you can use Sparrow and see, here's an address. Oh, and then, okay, that's what I'm wanting to send to. And then even on the mobile app, it can show you that, but then it maliciously

739
00:53:45.355 --> 00:53:47.855
sends a different address to Vicky design.

740
00:53:48.875 --> 00:53:50.734
No. No. No. This is for receives.

741
00:53:51.950 --> 00:53:55.730
This is for deposits. It does not help in the sender side. Okay.

742
00:53:56.670 --> 00:54:03.410
And it doesn't help if the Bitkey cap Bitkey app is already compromised when you press the export button. But, presumably,

743
00:54:04.190 --> 00:54:06.369
you do it originally. You do it in the beginning.

744
00:54:06.855 --> 00:54:07.755
You're not compromised.

745
00:54:08.055 --> 00:54:10.075
If for some reason it it differentiates

746
00:54:10.375 --> 00:54:14.795
in some time in the future, then you would know. So it's still not a perfect situation.

747
00:54:15.335 --> 00:54:16.555
I mean, I do think,

748
00:54:18.215 --> 00:54:29.810
eventually, Bitkey will launch, you know, a hardware with a screen, and user will be able to buy it and just go through the app and switch to the hardware with the screen. Like, that should be relatively easy UX to implement.

749
00:54:30.190 --> 00:54:33.730
And I have a feeling there's demand there for it, and it'll probably happen,

750
00:54:34.110 --> 00:54:35.090
which kind of

751
00:54:35.550 --> 00:54:37.570
mitigates that concern to degree.

752
00:54:38.365 --> 00:54:50.785
I mean, I would flip it just a little bit here, and I'm curious on Craig's opinion. You know, Craig, I love Spire Wallet. I use it every day. I rely on it. It's an amazing piece of software. I don't know where I'd be without it,

753
00:54:53.130 --> 00:54:53.630
But

754
00:54:54.089 --> 00:54:55.069
it has gotten

755
00:54:57.210 --> 00:55:01.309
bloated is the wrong word, but it has gotten more feature rich over time,

756
00:55:02.809 --> 00:55:07.549
which is awesome from a power user perspective. But do you have any desire to have, like,

757
00:55:08.225 --> 00:55:09.585
a simple button or something,

758
00:55:11.665 --> 00:55:13.685
so that when, like, I onboard a user,

759
00:55:14.065 --> 00:55:16.565
I can just have them press easy mode?

760
00:55:17.665 --> 00:55:29.040
Yeah. I mean, it's a really interesting, you know, question. And what I what I've tried to do in building it and, you know, the I guess we can decide on how successful I've been is to try and and make,

761
00:55:30.140 --> 00:55:31.680
sort of a scheme of progressive

762
00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:37.494
revealment. So, for example, you know, you can have more than one account, but the actual accounts

763
00:55:37.954 --> 00:55:40.615
tabs don't show until you have a second account.

764
00:55:41.474 --> 00:55:55.890
That's a really simple kind of exam some sample on it. I think, you know, I think that there's room in this world for many different wallets. I don't think Sparrow needs to be the only wallet, and it shouldn't be the only wallet. I think it tends to be the one that people,

765
00:55:56.830 --> 00:56:02.905
end up at. It's kind of the Bitcoin as wallet, but, you know, it is quite a lot for a new user.

766
00:56:04.245 --> 00:56:18.180
And for some people, it might be too much. And then there will no doubt be other wallets. And we've got some great content at tenders. We've got the the nunchucks and the Bitcoin keepers of of the world who are coming in to kind of fill that that space. So,

767
00:56:18.640 --> 00:56:27.540
you know, that that's that's kind of the beauty of the open Bitcoin ecosystem, right, is that you can use these different wallets and you can use these different

768
00:56:28.175 --> 00:56:32.115
devices to suit the particular needs, whether they're the educational

769
00:56:32.415 --> 00:56:34.915
needs, whether they're the security needs, whether they're

770
00:56:35.295 --> 00:56:40.675
the privacy needs of different users. And I think, you know, for me, I need to try and understand

771
00:56:41.369 --> 00:56:47.869
very clearly who is my user audience and try and develop for them and not try and be everything to everyone. So

772
00:56:48.569 --> 00:56:52.109
in answer to your question, I mean, yes, I could try and build

773
00:56:52.490 --> 00:57:00.545
a simple user mode, and it would be similar in some ways to building a mobile app, which is in very many ways because of the constrained

774
00:57:01.164 --> 00:57:02.305
screen real estate,

775
00:57:03.005 --> 00:57:17.380
a simple mode, if you will. But you lose so so much, of course, if you do that. Right? Now, you know, people will inevitably say, well, I just need x. You know? Can I just have have x? And then you're kind of back to where you began. So it's a tricky one for me. I think

776
00:57:18.160 --> 00:57:19.700
the reality is,

777
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:22.900
you have to to

778
00:57:23.345 --> 00:57:28.885
to kinda choose. And, I mean, Steve, I I'm sure you have some good views on this as well. But you you have to choose,

779
00:57:29.505 --> 00:57:30.565
who do you serve,

780
00:57:30.865 --> 00:57:31.924
and you have to

781
00:57:32.385 --> 00:57:36.645
be truthful to that choice. You can't try and be everything to everyone.

782
00:57:37.130 --> 00:57:42.010
I think that that's quite an important thing. So those are my kind of broad views on it,

783
00:57:42.890 --> 00:57:48.510
and I'm I'm kind of happy with that choice. I I don't have a particular desire to

784
00:57:48.935 --> 00:57:53.195
to try and make this the kind of Uber app. I kind of just want to focus,

785
00:57:53.575 --> 00:57:56.075
more and more on just trying to serve the particular

786
00:57:56.615 --> 00:58:00.875
segment of the market that Sparrow was originally designed for.

787
00:58:01.950 --> 00:58:16.530
Yeah. I agree with that last last point. And and it and also, I mean, the audio even though I'm I I you often might hear me shilling Vicky, I my position is not like, oh, all other solutions suck. They should go away. Vicky is for for everyone.

788
00:58:17.045 --> 00:58:19.865
It's more just like there's already a lot of solutions

789
00:58:20.645 --> 00:58:21.945
that are catering

790
00:58:22.485 --> 00:58:24.905
to an audience of people who are,

791
00:58:26.645 --> 00:58:28.505
willing to put the time into

792
00:58:28.885 --> 00:58:31.225
being a self sovereign and and trust minimizing

793
00:58:31.525 --> 00:58:34.579
as possible, and Sparrow is, like, a great choice for that.

794
00:58:35.359 --> 00:58:37.700
There was but there's a huge gap in omission

795
00:58:38.160 --> 00:58:38.640
for,

796
00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:45.195
people who just simply don't have the time or patience or ability to to handle private key material directly. So,

797
00:58:45.755 --> 00:58:57.535
I just think it, like, complements the rest of the the ecosystem. And and and that's why I think this conversation is interesting because, yeah, again, a lot of people who start with the key, they might get to a point where they would want to to

798
00:58:58.040 --> 00:58:59.180
have a more sophisticated

799
00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:00.380
setup

800
00:59:01.000 --> 00:59:16.665
where they're doing something like Craig suggesting, where Vicky they keep using Vicky, but it just becomes one one of end keys in a Spero setup. And I got I'm glad I understand what you were trying to suggest there because I I I do find that, like, a pretty pretty attractive upgrade path for for people.

801
00:59:17.445 --> 00:59:20.425
I I also want I just looked at some of the audience engagement.

802
00:59:21.445 --> 00:59:28.220
People some people were saying that Vicky has Frost, but Vicky just to be clear, Vicky does not currently have Frost.

803
00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:32.460
There is definitely hope and desire to add

804
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.420
Frost to Vicky. And even at the the early days of Vicky development,

805
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:38.360
there was,

806
00:59:39.240 --> 00:59:40.540
a hope to

807
00:59:40.965 --> 00:59:45.225
to just make it frost out of the gate and not even support legacy

808
00:59:45.525 --> 00:59:46.025
script,

809
00:59:46.725 --> 00:59:48.025
only support frost.

810
00:59:49.205 --> 00:59:52.985
And that would have been really nice. But, unfortunately, there was not strong,

811
00:59:54.165 --> 00:59:54.665
ecosystem

812
00:59:55.045 --> 00:59:57.470
adoption of Beck 32 m.

813
00:59:58.010 --> 01:00:02.270
And and what, you know, what does that mean? Well, that that that meant, like, Binance and Coinbase

814
01:00:02.570 --> 01:00:06.350
customers couldn't send their coins to any wallet that was,

815
01:00:08.010 --> 01:00:13.585
Taproot only or or, you know, based on Frost. So a decision was made to to not,

816
01:00:14.685 --> 01:00:17.825
not support it, but in the future, hopefully, we do. And then we get

817
01:00:18.285 --> 01:00:19.985
all kinds of amazing benefits,

818
01:00:20.445 --> 01:00:22.865
including recovery scenarios that don't require,

819
01:00:24.009 --> 01:00:25.069
an on chain transaction,

820
01:00:26.170 --> 01:00:34.190
which right now maybe cost a dollar, but, you know, we've seen periods of time where that's $50. And in the future, it might consistently be $50. So

821
01:00:34.490 --> 01:00:40.414
being able to utilize Frost to recover without having that additional expense would be enormous,

822
01:00:40.875 --> 01:00:43.775
and it would enable things like Craig's suggesting as well.

823
01:00:50.154 --> 01:00:51.934
The other piece here is

824
01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:57.220
okay. So let's walk through just the scenarios real quick. I'm using Bitkey,

825
01:00:59.040 --> 01:00:59.540
and

826
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:05.700
I have I have it on mobile as well. And I have my cloud backup, and there's the server key.

827
01:01:08.325 --> 01:01:12.105
If I lose my Bitkey or my Bitkey goes to the wash or something,

828
01:01:13.525 --> 01:01:16.025
the recovery path for that is

829
01:01:17.205 --> 01:01:18.505
I reach out to

830
01:01:19.000 --> 01:01:21.820
Bitkey support, and they send me a new Bitkey. Is that correct?

831
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:26.460
From the so just to be quick, you so that you lost your,

832
01:01:27.080 --> 01:01:35.655
hardware device? Your Bitkey? Broke. Yeah. Or broke or whatever. Yeah. It's not working or I lost it. So you from the mobile app, you trigger, like, a a recovery

833
01:01:36.435 --> 01:01:36.935
scenario,

834
01:01:37.875 --> 01:01:38.375
and

835
01:01:38.675 --> 01:01:41.095
there's I think it's a seven day

836
01:01:42.035 --> 01:01:46.535
delay and notify period. So you'd need to go buy a new hardware device

837
01:01:47.150 --> 01:01:50.690
and also wait, I think, at seven seven days

838
01:01:51.230 --> 01:01:55.490
for the recovery to fully take place. And in that seven day window,

839
01:01:56.270 --> 01:02:01.490
you're being notified through different communication channels that this recovery process is underway.

840
01:02:02.115 --> 01:02:13.095
And the reason why that's important is because if you think about it I mean, there's you have to think about any recovery scenario as in you're the legitimate customer and owner of those coins or you're an attacker and a thief.

841
01:02:13.809 --> 01:02:14.309
So,

842
01:02:15.089 --> 01:02:20.069
what you don't want to have happen is if an attacker, like, SIM swaps you or somehow

843
01:02:20.529 --> 01:02:27.670
takes over your They get your phone. Phone account. Right? And they're trying to restore a BitKeeper. And then they then they trigger recovery,

844
01:02:28.085 --> 01:02:34.585
say that they lost their device. You don't want them getting the coins. So if it in the attacker scenario, you've got this

845
01:02:34.964 --> 01:02:40.585
window of time in which the legitimate customer is getting notified, and they can cancel that recovery process.

846
01:02:40.940 --> 01:02:43.760
So that's how it works if you lose your hardware device.

847
01:02:44.460 --> 01:02:45.360
If you lose

848
01:02:45.740 --> 01:02:49.200
your like, if you delete the app on your phone or lose your phone,

849
01:02:50.380 --> 01:02:54.480
then it's a much simpler recovery process. Mean mean or it's, like, immediate

850
01:02:55.635 --> 01:02:59.735
because you can just use your hardware device to authenticate yourself as the legitimate

851
01:03:00.355 --> 01:03:01.395
Wait. Wait. We'll just

852
01:03:01.875 --> 01:03:07.655
so we wait let's just go through the hardware piece. So because this is the one piece I haven't test. I've tested

853
01:03:08.740 --> 01:03:09.560
I've tested,

854
01:03:10.740 --> 01:03:13.960
the model where you're not using the server key to break glass model.

855
01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:21.720
If you lose your phone, you're just doing it in I like, an iCloud recovery or or a Google Drive recovery.

856
01:03:24.315 --> 01:03:28.335
But if you lose the device, you lose the device, seven day delay notify,

857
01:03:28.715 --> 01:03:31.215
then after seven days, you have a new device.

858
01:03:31.915 --> 01:03:37.035
Yeah. You just go through the steps in the app and what you're, like, tapping and initializing it. Is that how it works? Or

859
01:03:37.980 --> 01:03:42.480
Yeah. After the seven days. And then it's you you know, it has to sweep your wallet, so it,

860
01:03:43.100 --> 01:03:49.440
it creates a new a new two of three wallet. It's technically creating a new wallet and sending all the funds to the new wallet.

861
01:03:49.980 --> 01:03:52.400
Yep. But the users wouldn't really realize that.

862
01:03:53.295 --> 01:03:57.855
Correct. But well, except for they'd be they'd pay on on chain fees to do that.

863
01:03:58.655 --> 01:04:04.895
But that's why, you know so in the future, hopefully, Frost is supported and then then that happens without that on chain transact

864
01:04:05.454 --> 01:04:06.275
on chain transaction.

865
01:04:07.430 --> 01:04:13.529
Yeah. So so so the the the risk with that model, which is actually pointed out in the recovery,

866
01:04:14.230 --> 01:04:14.730
doc,

867
01:04:15.109 --> 01:04:21.605
that, has been put out. But the the risk in that model is if you don't have access to the communication channels

868
01:04:22.065 --> 01:04:22.545
that,

869
01:04:23.105 --> 01:04:29.285
you know, notify you. Let's say an attacker has stolen your phone. It's your only means of accessing

870
01:04:29.825 --> 01:04:41.600
SMS and email, then they just have to get through those seven days. And, obviously, they won't then cancel or they will cancel whatever whatever it is, but they will then have the ability to kind of,

871
01:04:42.240 --> 01:04:42.740
subvert

872
01:04:43.120 --> 01:04:52.174
that process, that delay lock. So that's kind of the the the risk there. I think it's worth being aware of. And that's kind of one of the things where,

873
01:04:52.634 --> 01:05:00.734
you know, as a new Bitkey user, you kind of you get the device, you get the app, and it's just super easy. But as your as your stack grows,

874
01:05:01.115 --> 01:05:13.890
you're gonna want to start thinking about these these things, and that's where the complexities of these different recovery mechanisms start to come in. Right? So you never really escape it. Right? You never really get away from it as you have to protect

875
01:05:14.190 --> 01:05:23.245
more. You're gonna eventually always gonna have to consider what are the different attack models, what is my threat model here, who am I trying to protect against, and what happens

876
01:05:23.705 --> 01:05:24.525
if x

877
01:05:24.905 --> 01:05:26.525
x happens. Right? That's

878
01:05:26.905 --> 01:05:27.805
kind of the

879
01:05:28.345 --> 01:05:34.540
the the kind of downside, if you will, that we all have to deal deal with. So, you know, on the one hand, seeds,

880
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:35.980
and seed backups

881
01:05:36.280 --> 01:05:40.780
are painful because they happen at the right at the start. Right? The worst possible time

882
01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:52.085
when you have a new Bitcoin user, you're throwing all of the stuff at them, and they just you know, this is crazy. I've never seen anything like this in my life. And it really turns turns turns them off. But the downside

883
01:05:52.545 --> 01:05:53.045
of

884
01:05:53.425 --> 01:05:54.305
of kind of,

885
01:05:54.785 --> 01:05:57.285
of taking that away is that later

886
01:05:57.585 --> 01:05:58.964
on, people need to,

887
01:06:00.224 --> 01:06:01.684
start figuring out a more

888
01:06:02.520 --> 01:06:19.895
complex kind of thing. On the one hand, we have these 12 words. On the other hand, we have all of these different attack models and people saying, well, what happens if I don't have access to my messages? What happens if I don't have access to my email? What devices do I have access on those things on? And it's actually quite a complex,

889
01:06:20.914 --> 01:06:32.410
set of considerations that you have at that point of view of time rather than just thinking, well, I've got a safe, and I've got my 12 words in a safe. Right? So there's there's real trade offs here, and I think it's

890
01:06:33.349 --> 01:06:39.770
I'm not trying to say in any way that the Bitkey team has not been open with them. As I say, they're in the dock. But it's important to realize

891
01:06:40.150 --> 01:06:41.130
that the complexities,

892
01:06:41.430 --> 01:06:45.235
just because you don't have to deal with them at the start, they're still there.

893
01:06:45.695 --> 01:06:46.975
And you have to,

894
01:06:47.295 --> 01:06:53.715
take them into account if you have material amount of funds that you're trying to protect against various kinds of attacks.

895
01:06:54.655 --> 01:06:57.135
Yep. I I totally agree. In my own opinion, that's

896
01:06:57.830 --> 01:07:00.890
that seven day window, I think the default should be a month,

897
01:07:02.150 --> 01:07:03.690
and user configurable,

898
01:07:04.550 --> 01:07:14.405
to to it it still doesn't, like, eliminate the threat you just mentioned, Craig. But, certainly, if it's if it's a month, you have a lot more grace period if you're, like, out in the jungle for

899
01:07:14.705 --> 01:07:15.845
for a week trip

900
01:07:16.225 --> 01:07:24.325
or or if someone if if if you're someone who doesn't have a laptop, you know, your only device is the phone, and your phone gets

901
01:07:24.625 --> 01:07:40.150
compromised, like, you get SIM swapped, and you can't, like, get out of that mess within a week, that that is gonna be a very stressful period of time. If you have a month or or or longer, you have a lot more time to get your phone because you might not be receiving these messages

902
01:07:40.835 --> 01:07:42.855
if your only device has been compromised.

903
01:07:43.954 --> 01:07:45.815
So so But a SIM swap

904
01:07:46.434 --> 01:07:49.255
a a SIM swap here wouldn't compromise you.

905
01:07:50.355 --> 01:07:55.015
They they would have to actually have your phone. They would have to take your phone or compromise your phone

906
01:07:55.740 --> 01:07:56.240
directly.

907
01:07:57.820 --> 01:07:58.620
What? They they

908
01:08:01.020 --> 01:08:05.280
because, like, a swim a SIM swap doesn't give someone access to your iCloud, for instance.

909
01:08:05.820 --> 01:08:08.615
Yeah. Yeah. They would also have to attack your

910
01:08:09.155 --> 01:08:12.055
account. Otherwise, all the celebrities' naked photos would be everywhere.

911
01:08:15.155 --> 01:08:23.255
Yeah. So I guess, like, it is it is protected from a SIM swap. I would just say, just real quick here, while we're talking it through all these things out loud.

912
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:32.780
For the average user, I kind of agree, like, is seven you're you're picking a number out of a hat about a trade off balance in terms of how long the delay in notify is.

913
01:08:33.320 --> 01:08:33.820
But

914
01:08:34.280 --> 01:08:35.179
keep in mind

915
01:08:35.480 --> 01:08:46.285
that during that seven day period, while a user has lost their Bitkey or their Bitkey broke, there was a user on X. I don't know if it was verified or not. I know they're talking to the Bitkey team

916
01:08:46.665 --> 01:09:04.220
and that funds weren't lost, but that said like the fingerprint reader stopped working. Right. And they couldn't, they couldn't access their funds. So they have to wait through that seven day period or thirty day period if it gets increased. Ideally, it's user configurable. But my point is is during that period, what is actually happening is they're panicking like crazy.

917
01:09:05.205 --> 01:09:07.465
Right? They're like, if they're not in an attack scenario

918
01:09:07.925 --> 01:09:16.905
and they've just lost their Bitkey or it stopped working, they're panicking because they don't have access to their Bitcoin for however long that delay period is. So it's not like a perfect

919
01:09:17.469 --> 01:09:22.130
increasing it is not necessarily a perfect solution because then they're panicking for twenty nine days or whatever.

920
01:09:22.510 --> 01:09:23.730
Yep. That's a good point.

921
01:09:24.909 --> 01:09:28.530
Ideally, it's user configurable. But so then the other piece is

922
01:09:29.389 --> 01:09:32.050
the Bitkey server goes down or block goes out of business,

923
01:09:34.145 --> 01:09:36.565
which is unlikely, but let's say that happens.

924
01:09:36.945 --> 01:09:39.525
And there is the break glass mode where

925
01:09:40.545 --> 01:09:41.525
where you take

926
01:09:41.825 --> 01:09:46.565
effectively a cloud backup, and you take an Android device and you install an APK.

927
01:09:47.120 --> 01:09:48.660
Right? So you install an application

928
01:09:49.040 --> 01:09:52.020
of the Bitkey application, a backup Bitkey application.

929
01:09:52.480 --> 01:09:55.940
Then you scan the QR code, and then you tap with your device to spend.

930
01:09:57.360 --> 01:10:02.660
A lot of people might not have, like, an extra Android phone lying around, or they might not have an Android phone, period.

931
01:10:04.125 --> 01:10:08.865
It'd be nice if that break glass mode just worked with Sparrow. Like, if they could just

932
01:10:10.605 --> 01:10:12.225
use their Bitkey device,

933
01:10:13.245 --> 01:10:17.905
use the cloud backup in Sparrow, and just be able to recover their funds. I think

934
01:10:18.540 --> 01:10:20.800
that would be a a good situation,

935
01:10:21.500 --> 01:10:24.320
but it works as I've tested it. Like, it works.

936
01:10:25.980 --> 01:10:32.639
It's just, like, a little bit I mean, some even people that own Android phones, maybe they've never used an APK before. I know this audience has,

937
01:10:33.145 --> 01:10:40.285
But probably most people have onboarded to Bitkey. Like, if they have to go through that process, it's me walking them through that process and then panicking during it.

938
01:10:40.985 --> 01:10:44.045
Right. But, I mean, a few things are the first,

939
01:10:44.825 --> 01:10:46.925
hopefully, that is a rare occurrence.

940
01:10:47.310 --> 01:10:51.409
Right? I mean, the company going bankrupt or the or the government, like,

941
01:10:51.869 --> 01:10:58.449
shutting down the big key server, it it's certainly important to handle that scenario because it is it is possible.

942
01:10:59.550 --> 01:11:03.784
But it's not like a it's it's not a recurring thing or it's and it's

943
01:11:04.085 --> 01:11:04.585
unlikely

944
01:11:05.284 --> 01:11:06.664
each year you go by.

945
01:11:07.445 --> 01:11:11.144
So so I I just say that because if it's a little bit onerous

946
01:11:11.764 --> 01:11:22.280
to do the emergency access kit, Like Yeah. You know, it's, you know, it's not that big a deal. Having said that, it's completely reasonable to suggest that, like, you know, improving that experience

947
01:11:22.900 --> 01:11:24.520
and to be able to use Sparrow.

948
01:11:25.619 --> 01:11:27.880
The trade off there, it wouldn't be that hard.

949
01:11:28.535 --> 01:11:31.355
There would need to be a key export capability

950
01:11:32.055 --> 01:11:32.555
added.

951
01:11:33.495 --> 01:11:33.995
And

952
01:11:35.415 --> 01:11:36.475
if if that's

953
01:11:37.335 --> 01:11:45.599
the the whole, like, to to have seed phrases or not to have seed phrases, it's those are two options. You but there's another option too, which is deferred

954
01:11:46.219 --> 01:11:49.520
deferred seed phrase or deferred private key access.

955
01:11:49.900 --> 01:11:55.840
And deferred meaning it you only get it once you break break glass. You you only do it in this emergency scenario.

956
01:11:56.175 --> 01:12:07.474
It's not a regular so it doesn't hurt you during onboarding. It doesn't add complexity when you're a new user getting used to it. It doesn't give you a foot gun when you're using the product. But when you get in this emergency scenario where you wanna exit,

957
01:12:07.934 --> 01:12:10.114
then you do get, get the keys,

958
01:12:10.570 --> 01:12:18.030
and then you could import them to to Sparrow or another wallet. So I think that's that's certainly a reasonable consideration for the future.

959
01:12:18.890 --> 01:12:19.210
I,

960
01:12:20.010 --> 01:12:22.250
the other piece I know I'm kinda jumping around here,

961
01:12:23.445 --> 01:12:28.025
but we have you we have you both. Another piece that I think would be kinda interesting is

962
01:12:30.165 --> 01:12:35.065
so, like, when I said when I onboard someone to cold card, I don't tell them, like, go straight to multisig.

963
01:12:35.365 --> 01:12:38.425
Right? Like, I I think multisig is incredibly empowering.

964
01:12:39.090 --> 01:12:39.990
I use it personally,

965
01:12:40.610 --> 01:12:43.030
you know, individually and across my organizations.

966
01:12:45.090 --> 01:12:48.630
It's a fucking superpower. It's awesome. But it is it adds complexity.

967
01:12:49.010 --> 01:12:49.510
So

968
01:12:49.970 --> 01:12:53.655
I tell them go single sig. But what I tell them to do is

969
01:12:54.755 --> 01:12:55.255
have

970
01:12:55.635 --> 01:13:11.910
two hardware devices initialized on the same wallet. Right? And what does that do? That does if they they set up a cold card, for instance, they write down their backup words, then they take a second cold card, they restore their backup words to it. It does two things. It it makes it so they know their backup is correct.

971
01:13:12.530 --> 01:13:16.630
And the second thing it does is it gives them a fully initialized second secure device

972
01:13:17.010 --> 01:13:20.745
that they can keep somewhere else. So if the first device dies, they're good.

973
01:13:21.145 --> 01:13:23.645
This whole delay notify thing, I think

974
01:13:23.945 --> 01:13:28.365
that panic could be mitigated a bit if users could just buy a second bit key

975
01:13:28.905 --> 01:13:38.760
and have it already initialized. So they can keep the second bit key in their office, for instance, or something and the other one at their home. And if something happens to the one in their home, instead of waiting

976
01:13:39.140 --> 01:13:45.160
thirty days then you can increase the delay and notify too. Because instead of waiting thirty days, they can just take the second device,

977
01:13:46.565 --> 01:13:53.465
and use that. That's like a fully initialized copy of the original device. I think that would be a very graceful way of handling

978
01:13:55.045 --> 01:13:56.665
the the the loss of device.

979
01:13:57.605 --> 01:14:01.145
Yeah. I I agree with that as well. And but but

980
01:14:01.950 --> 01:14:05.970
bear in mind so we've already come up with, like, five or six great ideas

981
01:14:06.590 --> 01:14:07.330
for Bitkey.

982
01:14:07.950 --> 01:14:09.570
There's, like, at least a

983
01:14:10.270 --> 01:14:21.675
a 10 x multiple of, like, ideas and road map and features and priorities on that team. So it's gonna take time, which is why I'm I I'm a huge proponent of, like, I'd love to see other

984
01:14:22.135 --> 01:14:23.995
teams, other products, other wallets,

985
01:14:25.815 --> 01:14:27.435
going after a similar

986
01:14:28.775 --> 01:14:34.040
design and architecture as Big Key just so we get more, you know, more teams, more people,

987
01:14:34.580 --> 01:14:35.560
more experiments,

988
01:14:36.980 --> 01:14:38.520
building on this type of architecture.

989
01:14:40.180 --> 01:14:44.820
Alright. Well, I just want to go go with that, Steven. It's it's it's it's great that,

990
01:14:45.575 --> 01:14:48.395
as you mentioned earlier, you are working in

991
01:14:48.855 --> 01:14:53.195
really the heart of where a lot of these companies are because, you know, I think

992
01:14:53.655 --> 01:14:54.555
what we kind

993
01:14:54.935 --> 01:14:59.619
of would really like to see is some of the the kind of companies that have a lot of experience

994
01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:03.699
in UX design, kind of have a lot of resources in that,

995
01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:04.500
can

996
01:15:04.960 --> 01:15:08.020
approach it from that point of view and come up with different ideas,

997
01:15:09.119 --> 01:15:26.990
that are not that are, you know, similar to the Bitkey, but different. Right? Different kind of trade offs that we have. So that's, I think, would be very positive to see, and I think we will see it. I think we are absolutely going to see, and hopefully quite soon, other entrance into this space,

998
01:15:27.550 --> 01:15:29.810
because there's a lot of design space here,

999
01:15:30.590 --> 01:15:33.170
and different ideas and different things that can work,

1000
01:15:33.710 --> 01:15:37.250
as we've just come up with a variety of different ideas.

1001
01:15:38.510 --> 01:15:43.005
And I I think, you know, it's it's it's just to go back to an earlier point,

1002
01:15:43.465 --> 01:15:50.204
having, you know, ideas like having two bit keys, that's really the power where you see the power of an open ecosystem.

1003
01:15:50.505 --> 01:15:53.085
Right? The fact that, you know, even if,

1004
01:15:53.545 --> 01:15:54.525
MBK didn't

1005
01:15:54.930 --> 01:16:03.350
consider that the cold card would be used in that way, people have started using it in that way. Right? And that's kind of what you want. Right? You want people to take your product

1006
01:16:03.730 --> 01:16:08.469
and to use it in ways that you didn't imagine it because it has these kind of abilities.

1007
01:16:09.810 --> 01:16:14.095
And that which really gives legs to the thing is is is that kind of,

1008
01:16:14.795 --> 01:16:15.295
flexibility

1009
01:16:16.155 --> 01:16:17.295
that you build in.

1010
01:16:24.140 --> 01:16:24.640
Awesome.

1011
01:16:25.740 --> 01:16:29.760
I mean, I think this has been a very productive conversation. I will say on

1012
01:16:30.620 --> 01:16:34.000
the new entrance point of view, I'm pretty optimistic

1013
01:16:34.300 --> 01:16:37.200
on what the guys behind the Cove Wallet are building,

1014
01:16:40.105 --> 01:16:42.364
with the idea being there, like, a mobile

1015
01:16:43.705 --> 01:16:45.165
alternative to Sparrow

1016
01:16:45.945 --> 01:16:49.590
that has less power user features and is just simpler to use.

1017
01:16:50.469 --> 01:16:56.250
So, hopefully, we see more things happening in throughout the design space. I mean, there's kind of been a little bit of stagnation

1018
01:16:57.830 --> 01:16:58.330
until

1019
01:16:58.790 --> 01:17:01.530
Bitkey came out and kinda flipped the script a bit.

1020
01:17:01.845 --> 01:17:02.345
So

1021
01:17:02.965 --> 01:17:05.125
Do you wanna Yeah. We have, like, 15

1022
01:17:05.125 --> 01:17:15.465
left. Did did you wanna talk vaults or not? Yeah. I mean, you you seem like a a supporter. Why don't you make the pitch for why we should care? Are you thinking I'm a supporter? I Are you not?

1023
01:17:16.510 --> 01:17:23.090
I well, I'll I'll I'll tell you what I think, and then I'm I'm super curious what both of you guys what you what you guys think. I so,

1024
01:17:24.750 --> 01:17:29.170
well, first of all, for for folks in the audience who don't know what a vault is,

1025
01:17:30.855 --> 01:17:33.115
there there have been vaults from

1026
01:17:33.575 --> 01:17:37.755
custodians for a a while. Like, Coinbase had the notion of a vault,

1027
01:17:38.455 --> 01:17:40.795
you know, for at least eight years.

1028
01:17:41.415 --> 01:17:41.915
And,

1029
01:17:43.460 --> 01:17:53.160
it kinda like this delay and notify period that we just talked about. Like, let's say I have my Bitcoin at Coinbase. I put it in the vault. If I wanna withdraw it,

1030
01:17:54.500 --> 01:18:01.375
I have to wait forty eight hours or some period of time until it actually gets withdrawn. And during that window of time,

1031
01:18:01.755 --> 01:18:11.455
I'm receiving notifications through different communication mechanisms saying, hey. This is happening. And that protects me against someone hacking into my Coinbase account and

1032
01:18:13.010 --> 01:18:17.030
and doing a a withdrawal that that I didn't intend for. So

1033
01:18:17.410 --> 01:18:22.710
this features, and I think River just sent out something similar. So custodians have done this for a while,

1034
01:18:23.410 --> 01:18:26.950
but the conversation happening with Bitcoin developers right now

1035
01:18:27.364 --> 01:18:29.385
is vaults at the protocol level.

1036
01:18:29.685 --> 01:18:37.785
Be so that it's not done at the application level like a Coinbase is doing it, but instead of the protocol level. So it's independent of any company or service provider.

1037
01:18:38.485 --> 01:18:40.230
And so you could have, like,

1038
01:18:40.870 --> 01:18:43.050
you could be using Sparrow and have a

1039
01:18:43.430 --> 01:18:45.450
a three of five multisig setup,

1040
01:18:47.030 --> 01:18:48.650
but you could set it up so that

1041
01:18:49.110 --> 01:18:49.510
you,

1042
01:18:49.910 --> 01:18:50.890
you can't immediately

1043
01:18:51.350 --> 01:18:54.170
if you try to withdraw or spend money out of that wallet,

1044
01:18:54.470 --> 01:18:55.690
there's a waiting period.

1045
01:18:56.175 --> 01:18:57.635
You could be receiving notifications.

1046
01:18:58.415 --> 01:18:59.315
And if you,

1047
01:19:00.415 --> 01:19:00.915
interject,

1048
01:19:02.335 --> 01:19:04.034
it it'll cancel the withdrawal,

1049
01:19:05.934 --> 01:19:06.815
and it would go

1050
01:19:08.014 --> 01:19:09.420
and and and if and if,

1051
01:19:10.460 --> 01:19:12.480
if you do that, it goes to this secondary

1052
01:19:13.020 --> 01:19:14.480
wallet, the vault.

1053
01:19:16.699 --> 01:19:24.320
So on the surface, it's super attractive. It just adds another layer of security, and that's definitely a big benefit.

1054
01:19:25.745 --> 01:19:29.285
I was a huge fan of this concept maybe

1055
01:19:29.745 --> 01:19:31.045
six, seven years ago.

1056
01:19:33.345 --> 01:19:34.245
I'm a little

1057
01:19:35.505 --> 01:19:39.525
I I'm open to the conversation still, but I'm I I see a lot of drawbacks

1058
01:19:39.949 --> 01:19:47.010
that would need to be addressed now. So let me just enumerate those, and then I got I wanna hear what your your guys' view on this is. But,

1059
01:19:47.710 --> 01:19:53.010
I worry about complexity being added. So it's already hard enough to have one wallet

1060
01:19:53.310 --> 01:19:54.050
and manage

1061
01:19:54.994 --> 01:20:04.775
the the keys for that one wallet. Here, you'd need to manage two sets two wallets. And whatever the key configurations are for those two wallets, that's one complexity.

1062
01:20:05.715 --> 01:20:09.300
Another drawback is that you do to spend your coins, you do have this,

1063
01:20:10.340 --> 01:20:20.820
delay. So if you actually wanna spend your coins, you're having to wait for that delay. Depending on your use case, though, that if you're truly, like, like, it's your life savings and you you don't,

1064
01:20:21.780 --> 01:20:22.360
you know,

1065
01:20:22.785 --> 01:20:26.645
you you don't intend to spend it for a long time, that that might not be that big a deal.

1066
01:20:28.465 --> 01:20:35.205
And then the third drawback is that you need some kind of monitoring service to monitor the blockchain, the mempool,

1067
01:20:36.500 --> 01:20:38.600
in order to alert you of

1068
01:20:38.980 --> 01:20:39.800
an attack.

1069
01:20:40.420 --> 01:20:40.920
And

1070
01:20:41.300 --> 01:20:51.400
you either need to then host your own monitoring service yourself, so it adds a huge, you know, UX burden and operational DevOps operational burden on the user,

1071
01:20:52.635 --> 01:20:53.375
or you're,

1072
01:20:53.755 --> 01:20:58.415
you know, paying a third party to do that for you. So I I think

1073
01:20:58.875 --> 01:21:00.015
that Vault advocates,

1074
01:21:02.315 --> 01:21:04.415
maybe aren't discussing those

1075
01:21:05.195 --> 01:21:05.695
downsides,

1076
01:21:06.155 --> 01:21:07.440
as much as they should.

1077
01:21:08.400 --> 01:21:13.699
But, yeah, I mean, I I remain, I mean, the the reason why it's coming up now is, like, people who are advocates

1078
01:21:14.480 --> 01:21:15.780
for consensus changes

1079
01:21:16.160 --> 01:21:17.219
around covenants

1080
01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:34.485
will sometimes cite vaults as, like, a a leading use case for why we wanna change the consensus rules of Bitcoin. And then it gets into a debate about, like, how practical they are, how much adoption we'd see of vaults. And so that's the current conversation, but I'm curious what you guys what your views on

1081
01:21:34.785 --> 01:21:35.685
vaults are.

1082
01:21:36.699 --> 01:21:40.559
Will will they be adopted? Do they really advance security a lot or not?

1083
01:21:41.179 --> 01:21:41.679
Craig?

1084
01:21:42.940 --> 01:21:46.400
So, Steve, I think you've done a great job at summarizing,

1085
01:21:47.980 --> 01:21:50.559
you know, the the pros and cons of vaults.

1086
01:21:51.455 --> 01:21:55.235
I think, you know, there's there's only one way to know, and that's

1087
01:21:55.695 --> 01:21:58.355
to actually use them. Right? I I think,

1088
01:21:59.375 --> 01:22:03.875
everything in Bitcoin serves at this at the pleasure of store value.

1089
01:22:05.390 --> 01:22:10.610
In other words, that is the number one use case for Bitcoin in the world, like it or not,

1090
01:22:11.070 --> 01:22:17.010
and Volt's very much caters towards that use use case. So it is by default interesting

1091
01:22:17.735 --> 01:22:26.555
regardless of the various drawbacks, and I think the drawbacks you mentioned are absolutely valid. So, you know, right now, we have people complaining,

1092
01:22:27.975 --> 01:22:31.890
prominent Bitcoin is saying that multisig is too

1093
01:22:32.370 --> 01:22:34.870
complex, that it's too difficult, that it's

1094
01:22:35.490 --> 01:22:35.990
too,

1095
01:22:37.490 --> 01:22:42.470
how can I say this, too difficult to change in a way should you need to rotate keys or whatever?

1096
01:22:43.330 --> 01:22:45.350
All of those things have solutions

1097
01:22:46.225 --> 01:22:48.485
somewhere in the future, perhaps, but,

1098
01:22:48.785 --> 01:22:50.565
ultimately, Volts is,

1099
01:22:51.425 --> 01:22:52.725
adding to the complexity,

1100
01:22:53.505 --> 01:23:06.179
in the way that you've said. So instead of having, you know, a single kind of set of keys, you now have two sets of keys. Why? Because you need to be able to have an escape path should this bolt withdrawal

1101
01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:13.704
go wrong. Right? Should there be an attack? What is the escape path? This kind of safe safe path, if you will. And that's,

1102
01:23:14.105 --> 01:23:16.204
I think something which is underappreciated

1103
01:23:16.744 --> 01:23:17.244
because

1104
01:23:17.545 --> 01:23:23.885
it's difficult enough if you think about c backup. Right? If you are gonna go around and then have,

1105
01:23:24.710 --> 01:23:28.410
sort of different geographic locations where you have seed backups,

1106
01:23:29.110 --> 01:23:38.535
that's quite a difficult thing to set up in and of itself. Right? You now need to have these actual safe places which are distinct from each other. Now if you are going to

1107
01:23:38.995 --> 01:23:39.495
multiply,

1108
01:23:40.515 --> 01:23:44.295
you know, and I say this in a loose sense, you're gonna multiply that complexity

1109
01:23:44.595 --> 01:23:52.870
by two, you might get to a point where people just say, you know, that's that's just way too much. I already had to try and find three different locations

1110
01:23:53.250 --> 01:23:56.550
to store my seeds. Now I'm gonna have to find another

1111
01:23:57.090 --> 01:24:07.005
a fourth or a fifth. Right? And that's that that just starts to sound like way too much for most people. So, you know, are Vaults likely to take off and become the kind of everyday

1112
01:24:07.385 --> 01:24:13.085
Bitcoinist tool? I don't think so. I I I I doubt that would happen. At least it wouldn't happen for many years.

1113
01:24:13.465 --> 01:24:15.325
However, I do think that,

1114
01:24:15.865 --> 01:24:16.685
as I said,

1115
01:24:17.130 --> 01:24:19.870
store value is the key. And if we

1116
01:24:20.490 --> 01:24:23.950
if if Bitcoin is, as Matt says, designed to pump forever,

1117
01:24:24.570 --> 01:24:25.070
then

1118
01:24:25.530 --> 01:24:33.455
we are going to end up in a place where we're gonna have to store huge amounts of value. And in that sense, we're gonna need every

1119
01:24:33.835 --> 01:24:41.135
tool that we can get our hands on, and Volts is a great tool. So it's very hard to argue against it from that point of point of point of view.

1120
01:24:42.395 --> 01:24:48.790
I personally think Volts would absolutely get use. I think there's an absolutely valid use use case,

1121
01:24:49.730 --> 01:24:55.110
and I think probably the strongest use use case in my view for all of this,

1122
01:24:56.690 --> 01:24:59.830
covenants type stuff. I know there are many other use use

1123
01:25:00.135 --> 01:25:13.035
cases, and people will say, well, you know, we need to scale the UTXO model and all of these kind of things, and, certainly, those things are valid. But if you're talking about the needs today, I suspect that the actual use case of covenants

1124
01:25:13.470 --> 01:25:16.050
in bolts would be the number one for some time,

1125
01:25:17.230 --> 01:25:24.290
just because that's what people need today. They don't need to necessarily scale the UTXO set today.

1126
01:25:24.670 --> 01:25:27.570
So that's kind of my my broad views on it.

1127
01:25:28.195 --> 01:25:28.695
Well,

1128
01:25:29.315 --> 01:25:35.495
so the way I look at it is is from a use case perspective. So in the short term, what would the use cases be?

1129
01:25:35.875 --> 01:25:39.495
I I tend to agree with you that people that are practicing self custody

1130
01:25:41.800 --> 01:25:49.020
probably won't want to add the additional complexity of of having another wallet that they have to secure, their backup wallet.

1131
01:25:49.960 --> 01:25:52.780
I think you could have interesting scenarios where,

1132
01:25:53.640 --> 01:25:55.340
you have, like, a keyless setup.

1133
01:25:55.875 --> 01:26:05.974
Right? So you have a setup. Let's you know, we'll use Unchained as an example. Unchained right now defaults to two of three. You could have a scenario where the user holds none of their keys,

1134
01:26:07.235 --> 01:26:07.735
but

1135
01:26:08.430 --> 01:26:12.930
they can use vaults to have this backup and go to the backup wallet.

1136
01:26:13.630 --> 01:26:15.250
There could be a scenario there,

1137
01:26:16.350 --> 01:26:22.210
where they're actually only securing one seed, but that seed is only used in emergencies. Otherwise, they're

1138
01:26:22.725 --> 01:26:24.585
they're they're holding custodial.

1139
01:26:25.125 --> 01:26:29.065
There could be something there. I know there's a lot of high net worths that just don't want

1140
01:26:29.605 --> 01:26:33.625
to be holding their own keys, but maybe they would hold one emergency key.

1141
01:26:34.805 --> 01:26:36.425
The second piece is,

1142
01:26:37.840 --> 01:26:43.620
just like amateur custodians in general protecting themselves. So, like, Cashew is something I'm very excited about.

1143
01:26:43.920 --> 01:26:46.100
And if you're running a Cashew Mint,

1144
01:26:47.040 --> 01:26:48.660
you basically have a

1145
01:26:49.625 --> 01:26:50.525
large honeypot

1146
01:26:51.385 --> 01:26:53.645
hot wallet that you're constantly operating.

1147
01:26:54.985 --> 01:26:58.125
Those people that are running mints are already pretty technically proficient.

1148
01:26:58.745 --> 01:27:00.445
They might take advantage of Vaults,

1149
01:27:01.225 --> 01:27:03.090
to make sure that they don't get rugged,

1150
01:27:03.570 --> 01:27:05.909
that they don't accidentally rug their users

1151
01:27:06.530 --> 01:27:09.349
by getting rugged themselves and getting compromised themselves.

1152
01:27:09.730 --> 01:27:15.349
All that said, I don't really think there's that much demand for it except for, like, a small subset

1153
01:27:15.650 --> 01:27:17.190
of Bitcoin x.

1154
01:27:21.465 --> 01:27:30.844
And the environment for Softworks right now is probably the worst environment we've seen in a long time in terms of trying to find consensus for something. There really needs to be an overwhelming,

1155
01:27:31.385 --> 01:27:32.125
you know,

1156
01:27:33.100 --> 01:27:40.080
momentum or desire or motivation to to do something. And I just don't think it's really there for vaults, but maybe I'm wrong.

1157
01:27:41.660 --> 01:27:45.200
Yep. The the one thing I the cost of scenario,

1158
01:27:47.655 --> 01:27:52.395
you know or sorry. Not the cost. The Cashew scenario, like, if you're running ecashment.

1159
01:27:53.415 --> 01:28:01.840
And this extends to exchanges too who might wanna use this for their hot wallet cold storage setup, but you you need a pretty sophisticated scenario of knowing,

1160
01:28:04.460 --> 01:28:07.920
because it because you have this time delay in spending your coins,

1161
01:28:08.380 --> 01:28:11.600
you can't lock up, like, the entire cashew mint

1162
01:28:12.375 --> 01:28:16.775
or else it would just freeze the whole system. People wouldn't be able to to make make transfers.

1163
01:28:18.695 --> 01:28:19.835
So you'd have to

1164
01:28:20.215 --> 01:28:24.074
somehow figure out based on historical data what percentage

1165
01:28:24.375 --> 01:28:25.114
of your,

1166
01:28:26.679 --> 01:28:28.860
total mint needs to be liquid,

1167
01:28:29.719 --> 01:28:31.579
you know, within, you know, within

1168
01:28:31.880 --> 01:28:37.099
a day or two days or whatever and, and only lock up some of it in in a vault.

1169
01:28:39.315 --> 01:28:47.414
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. So it's, like, not even practical that practical for that anyway. It would help a little bit. You'd need a elaborate design

1170
01:28:48.675 --> 01:28:49.974
to do that as well.

1171
01:28:50.730 --> 01:28:51.713
Yeah. And I

1172
01:28:52.535 --> 01:28:58.970
probably a DevOps team. I think that, you know, something that is that is true, not just of Vaults, but,

1173
01:28:59.370 --> 01:29:04.270
of of Bitcoin self custody in general is that you want to have

1174
01:29:04.650 --> 01:29:05.150
always,

1175
01:29:06.614 --> 01:29:12.635
if if you're holding on to any significant amount, you do want to have different wallets which have different levels

1176
01:29:13.175 --> 01:29:13.755
of security.

1177
01:29:15.094 --> 01:29:22.230
And, you know, the vault, in this case, would obviously be the maximum level, and then you would want to have sort of a spending wallet

1178
01:29:22.849 --> 01:29:33.030
or a a sort of a lukewarm wallet, if you will, which was a much lower security wallet. And I think that that's true true today. Right? If you have your cold storage and you've kind of progressed

1179
01:29:33.405 --> 01:29:36.625
to the most secure setup, you'll have a multisig,

1180
01:29:37.165 --> 01:29:48.800
which might be in in different signers in different geographic locations. Obviously, that's gonna be a real pain if you ever have to spend. So you then have a spend spending wallet. And I think that that's that kind of model,

1181
01:29:49.420 --> 01:30:00.160
is gonna become the model of the future future. I think Bolt fits quite well into that. You know, we don't know what the adoption is until we have it or if we ever have it.

1182
01:30:01.005 --> 01:30:04.305
But, you know, I I do think that there is going to be

1183
01:30:04.685 --> 01:30:06.145
some demand for

1184
01:30:06.445 --> 01:30:12.305
that kind of ultra secure level. And then, as I say, having sort of much,

1185
01:30:12.685 --> 01:30:18.620
you know, sort of a single SIG cold card or some kind of lower levels, which then augment that.

1186
01:30:25.800 --> 01:30:29.880
Yeah. That makes sense to me. It's like you can think of it kind of like a hot cold setup in,

1187
01:30:30.615 --> 01:30:31.355
for exchanges.

1188
01:30:33.335 --> 01:30:40.635
People have I mean, I think most people have that in practice, and they don't even really realize. Right? It's like you have your spending wallet. You have your

1189
01:30:42.690 --> 01:30:43.910
your cold storage.

1190
01:30:45.170 --> 01:30:49.990
Maybe that's all people have. Maybe people don't really spend Bitcoin. Maybe that's only, like, a dozen of us.

1191
01:30:53.330 --> 01:30:55.990
But, yeah, vaults could play a role there. I just

1192
01:30:56.535 --> 01:31:00.555
do you guys think there's actually demand? Like, do you realistically think

1193
01:31:01.095 --> 01:31:05.675
this is, you know, what the community rallies around in terms of a soft work?

1194
01:31:06.535 --> 01:31:07.035
No.

1195
01:31:07.975 --> 01:31:11.675
I I I think I think we'll probably get covenant someday,

1196
01:31:13.880 --> 01:31:15.580
and vaults is one application.

1197
01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:22.300
Some people will use it early on. And ten years from now, a lot of the complexities and and drawbacks that we're mentioning

1198
01:31:23.000 --> 01:31:31.535
can be smoothed over. They'll just be libraries built out and tools built out, making it way easier for the future cashew mint operators to

1199
01:31:31.995 --> 01:31:42.015
to to do that where they're not having to build all this themselves. I think that can happen over a ten year period of time. I just don't think it's like a super strong motivator to, like, change the consensus rules of Bitcoin

1200
01:31:44.170 --> 01:31:45.150
on its own.

1201
01:31:45.690 --> 01:31:48.990
I think it's like a secondary benefit we get if we get

1202
01:31:49.770 --> 01:31:50.270
covenants.

1203
01:31:51.050 --> 01:31:54.190
Yeah. And I I think it's it's it's worth saying in case everyone

1204
01:31:54.570 --> 01:31:59.205
anyone out there is kind of looking at, the kind of talk online is that

1205
01:31:59.505 --> 01:32:02.485
opfolds, which is the particular proposal we are

1206
01:32:03.665 --> 01:32:06.085
probably referring to, at least the leading one,

1207
01:32:06.625 --> 01:32:08.325
is is is not even really

1208
01:32:09.185 --> 01:32:16.250
being proposed in any serious way at this time. It's mostly op CTV and op, checks it from stack. So, you know,

1209
01:32:16.630 --> 01:32:19.050
it's it's, it's certainly not,

1210
01:32:19.430 --> 01:32:21.610
in our immediate future. I think,

1211
01:32:22.310 --> 01:32:23.290
it it just

1212
01:32:23.750 --> 01:32:28.715
I think it it is it is at least true that some people would use it,

1213
01:32:29.175 --> 01:32:32.075
and it would probably get more use over time

1214
01:32:32.615 --> 01:32:38.155
as the value that Bitcoin as an ecosystem needs to store goes up.

1215
01:32:43.050 --> 01:32:43.550
Awesome.

1216
01:32:44.730 --> 01:32:48.670
Guys, this has been a pleasure. I've enjoyed the conversation. I think it's been very productive.

1217
01:32:49.530 --> 01:32:52.270
Based on the live chat, it seems like people have found it helpful.

1218
01:32:54.375 --> 01:32:58.955
I think it's just important to be very transparent and open and honest with with Bitcoin

1219
01:32:59.415 --> 01:33:01.835
trade offs and tool trade offs. And

1220
01:33:02.375 --> 01:33:13.490
the ultimate dream here, I think, is for users to have many different options and for users to choose the options that best suit them, and have agency in that decision, have an educated decision to be able to make that

1221
01:33:14.510 --> 01:33:18.530
make very important decisions for their for their family's livelihood.

1222
01:33:20.350 --> 01:33:24.290
We've gone an hour and a half. I think it'd be great to wrap with some final thoughts.

1223
01:33:25.435 --> 01:33:26.574
Steve, final thoughts.

1224
01:33:30.955 --> 01:33:32.815
I don't know. Let can Craig start?

1225
01:33:33.435 --> 01:33:35.215
Sorry. I have my Final thoughts. Ready.

1226
01:33:36.715 --> 01:33:38.940
Yeah. Look. I I guess I'm just gonna go back

1227
01:33:39.980 --> 01:33:47.520
to, my sort of early comments. I think one of the the biggest strengths that Bitcoin has, and it doesn't get talked about a great great deal,

1228
01:33:48.620 --> 01:33:51.280
because it's it's kind of assumed, I guess,

1229
01:33:51.739 --> 01:33:53.120
is that we have these

1230
01:33:53.805 --> 01:33:54.305
these,

1231
01:33:54.925 --> 01:33:56.305
really great standards,

1232
01:33:56.845 --> 01:33:59.025
which were these kind of very small,

1233
01:33:59.645 --> 01:34:01.585
short documents that were written,

1234
01:34:02.045 --> 01:34:06.945
back in the day. I'm talking about documents like BIP 32 and BIP 44.

1235
01:34:07.005 --> 01:34:09.000
And they're kind of these little building blocks,

1236
01:34:09.960 --> 01:34:22.780
which don't have they're not like reams of text. They're actually quite simple. They're relatively easy for a developer to read and build on. And what they have led to is this great open ecosystem where we have all of these different vendors,

1237
01:34:23.545 --> 01:34:24.205
and developers

1238
01:34:24.585 --> 01:34:27.165
coming and building on this

1239
01:34:27.545 --> 01:34:31.085
original core. Right? So we've kind of taken things from

1240
01:34:31.705 --> 01:34:37.005
a kind of a single key, single address setup all the way to these kind of geographically

1241
01:34:37.830 --> 01:34:38.570
multi vendor,

1242
01:34:38.949 --> 01:34:39.770
multi segs.

1243
01:34:40.150 --> 01:34:44.010
And that's a long distance, and we've done that in a way that maintains,

1244
01:34:45.590 --> 01:34:46.409
the kind of,

1245
01:34:47.270 --> 01:34:48.949
openness and the kind of,

1246
01:34:49.429 --> 01:34:49.929
accessibility

1247
01:34:50.230 --> 01:34:54.905
for anyone to take take part. I think that that's a feature of Bitcoin

1248
01:34:55.365 --> 01:34:56.585
which is really precious.

1249
01:34:57.125 --> 01:34:58.665
That's one which I value

1250
01:34:58.965 --> 01:35:01.465
hugely in terms of my own use

1251
01:35:01.925 --> 01:35:02.505
of Bitcoin.

1252
01:35:02.885 --> 01:35:07.305
I love the ability that I can move move around and do various things. So those

1253
01:35:07.699 --> 01:35:09.880
standards are very important to me.

1254
01:35:10.580 --> 01:35:12.120
I would encourage anyone

1255
01:35:12.500 --> 01:35:15.639
building in the space or even just using it to always consider

1256
01:35:16.260 --> 01:35:17.159
standards based,

1257
01:35:17.699 --> 01:35:22.600
products and products that are built on stand stand standards. It's a really important part because

1258
01:35:23.125 --> 01:35:29.465
it leads to the kind of world and the kind of ecosystem that we have today. So that's kind of my my message,

1259
01:35:29.844 --> 01:35:32.744
is always think about standards and try to

1260
01:35:33.125 --> 01:35:37.545
lean towards them because it's gonna lead to more optionality in the future.

1261
01:35:39.100 --> 01:35:41.840
Love it. Thanks, Craig. Steve, final thoughts.

1262
01:35:43.020 --> 01:35:45.200
Yeah. Well, I appreciate Craig,

1263
01:35:45.660 --> 01:35:54.995
bringing this up. And instinctively, I'm I'm all about standards as well. I was just hitting a roadblock and seeing how it works out here, but now I understand. So thanks for that conversation.

1264
01:35:56.815 --> 01:36:02.115
My I guess my final thought, I I'm excited about private key management because,

1265
01:36:02.815 --> 01:36:06.120
I mean, it's future. It's really hard it's really hard to do.

1266
01:36:07.000 --> 01:36:14.940
But if we look at the past ten years, look how far we've come. And if you just listen to our conversation now, and we just scratch the surface on, like, improvements

1267
01:36:15.240 --> 01:36:19.980
to Bitkey or Sparrow or just the space in general, adding vaults, etcetera.

1268
01:36:20.685 --> 01:36:34.350
Think about the next it's gonna take time. It's a lot of still a lot of work ahead of us, but we know what these things are. These this isn't like we have to invent new things. We we can name a hundred things over the next ten years that are going to happen. People are gonna build it,

1269
01:36:35.310 --> 01:36:41.330
and the solutions are gonna become much easier to use and be more secure. So I think that I find that super exciting.

1270
01:36:41.870 --> 01:36:45.650
Yeah. I think it's easy to get lost in the weeds and get disenfranchised,

1271
01:36:46.110 --> 01:36:46.350
but,

1272
01:36:47.535 --> 01:36:53.554
the kids kids these days have it so easy. You know? It it used to it used to be it used to be a lot more difficult,

1273
01:36:54.255 --> 01:36:56.015
and a lot scarier and a lot

1274
01:36:57.135 --> 01:36:59.235
people used to lose Bitcoin all the time.

1275
01:36:59.870 --> 01:37:03.650
It it used to be a very common occurrence. You would just see on Reddit Bitcoin talk.

1276
01:37:04.190 --> 01:37:05.250
I got compromised,

1277
01:37:05.710 --> 01:37:16.025
and we've come a long, long way as an industry. I wanna I wanna thank Craig and Steve for joining us. I wanna thank them for being on team Bitcoin and and building in the space. Your guys' contributions

1278
01:37:16.485 --> 01:37:17.865
are greatly appreciated.

1279
01:37:19.125 --> 01:37:23.145
I plan to have you guys on, I'm sure, on dispatch many, many times in the future.

1280
01:37:24.165 --> 01:37:28.025
I wanna thank the freaks for joining us, supporting the show. As always, sale dispatch

1281
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is,

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has no ads. It is completely supported by our audience. So thank you all for donating

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your hard earned Bitcoin to the show.

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It means a lot. It's it's it's pretty crazy how much support is out there. So thank you guys. And as always, you can find Cielo Dispatch in your favorite podcast app by search just searching Cielo Dispatch, any podcast app. If you use Fountain Podcasts,

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you can leave a comment, feedback, questions,

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things you wanna see from the show.

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I read all of them.

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So thank you for your support.

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Consider sharing with friends and family. Thank you, Steve. Thank you, Craig. Until next time. Appreciate you both.

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Peace. See you, guys. Bye bye.