CD84: Home Schooling and Bitcoin Games with Scott, Tali, and P

Happy Bitcoin Saturday, freaks.

It's your boy, Odell, here with the first little dispatch of the New Year. First of all, happy New Year to all.

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So I know this has been a long preamble,

but it was a long holiday. I haven't been with you guys for a while.

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you guys make it all worth it, so thank you.

And then second of all, we have a crazy week here at Bitcoin Park. If you are in the Nashville area, consider going to bitcoinpark.co

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Wednesday morning?

Yeah. That that's gonna be on Wednesday morning, I think, at 11 CST. Sorry that I'm not more prepared for you freaks. And then we have a bunch more conversations. Also, all the conversations that happen at the park, well, most of them without the q and a component

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Okay. I appreciate you guys for bearing with me on this long intro. We have a great conversation today, a little bit out of my wheelhouse, but something

that is very important and I'm very excited about.

That is homeschooling

and also Bitcoin games. Bitcoin games can be very helpful in an educational environment.

To have this conversation,

we have

2 people that have become very good friends of mine.

Just for meeting them at Bitcoin Park, they they drove in,

they drove into Bitcoin Park looking to see what the Bitcoin community over here was all about, and, we really just hit it off a couple months ago.

We have Scott here. How's it going, Scott? It's going fantastic. Thanks, Matt.

Thank you, Scott. And Scott's here with his wonderful wife, Tali. How's it going, Tali?

Really good.

Happy to be here. Love it. Love it. I think this might be their first podcast. Is this your first podcast ever? Yes. It is. Yes. It is. Love it. And here to break their podcast virginity with me is ride or die freak, P. How's it going, P? It is going fantastically.

I'm honored to be here, my friend. Thanks for inviting me. P was sitting in Bitcoin Park,

when we decided that we were gonna do this dispatch, and I roped him into it. So very excited to have Pete here. Hell, yeah. Okay. So we are talking about homeschooling. We are talking about Bitcoin games. Before we get started, I just wanted to say to the freaks,

I played a lot of Bitcoin games.

This game that that Scott designed is is simply the best Bitcoin game I've ever played. But we are not gonna start with that. What we're gonna start with is homeschooling, and why are we gonna why why are we gonna talk about homeschooling with this group? We're gonna talk about homeschooling with this group because

Tali and Scott have 4 children, and they homeschooled all 4 children.

So I think that brings makes you as close to a homeschooling expert as as you could possibly be, Tali.

Homeschooling.

Why should we care?

Why do you do it?

Why is it important?

Well, hello, everybody. I'm so happy to be here.

Homeschooling

for us, when we first started, it was almost an accidental

event. We weren't planning to do that. We were originally going to go traditional and, you know, send the kids to private school, go the Ivy League route, all that stuff. But as the kids got older, we realized that

if we went the

structured academic route, there were a lot of restrictions on what

the kids can and cannot do.

It was very

almost,

conveyor belt like. You You know, the kids are moved from one stage to another stage

and with very little variation

allowed

in what they're

supposed to be doing. So an example would be when my my oldest was 3 and I was thinking about putting her in preschool, I toured

the local preschools,

like, every single one of them.

And I

interviewed the principals and the teachers, and

I just specifically remember this one school that I stopped at.

The principal was English. Her you know, she sounded really intelligent. And we were walking down the hall and she was pointing at all the different

artwork and and, ABCs and words that they were learning. And I asked her this one question. I said, do you teach your kids to read? These are 3, 4, 5 year olds. And I will never forget her answer to me. She said, oh, no. No. No. We don't do that. And I asked her why. And she said, well, we don't want them to be bored in kindergarten.

What?

And I said, so if a child is ready and willing,

you would

purposefully not teach that child to read? And she said yes, because we don't want them to be bored. And that just blew my mind. It absolutely blew my mind. My oldest was was 3. I had already been teaching her ABCs.

And

so I I didn't send her to that preschool. I did end up taking

her my oldest to a different preschool.

And

while the other kids were learning how to spell cat with the you know, it's the c a t and their b is for boy and

d is for dog, that kind of thing. She was already reading chapter books because Wow. I taught her as she was ready to move forward, not because I said, okay. Wait. You're 4, and you should be able to only do this amount.

And so I'm gonna stop there. You let the child lead, and that's that's been the best experience that we've been able to enjoy is let the child lead. When they are ready to go forward, you move them forward.

But if they have some trouble, if they're not language inclined, they're more mathematically,

challenged, then you just say, okay.

If the addition doesn't make sense to you right now, you

explain it to them a different way, or you use a different,

method, or you for example, for our boys, they're very active.

When they do schoolwork, it's really helpful to allow them to move, which is not possible in the school system.

So for example, our, our second oldest,

he memorized the multiplication table while he was jumping on our sofa

And it just worked for him.

But that's just He's literally just jumping up and down on the sofa. He was jumping up and down on the sofa. He was jumping up and down. Yes. That was how he recited. And that was fine with me. I don't care how he learns it. Just learn it, you know? And if he doesn't get it, then we do it again. I see p's mind running. He's like, damn. I I think I can learn things that way. Yeah. Exactly what's going through my life. Down. He'd be he was doing a lot of different He did. Whatever it was as long as he was doing his thing.

Hold it closer to your mouth, Scott. Sorry. Yeah. And also also you don't

we we don't agree in grading, especially when the kids are learning a new skill.

We wanna give them feedback by saying, okay. That didn't work. Let's try it again. But if you give them a grade, which I think a lot of schools are really quick to do Right. They label themselves immediately.

So if you say, okay, you haven't memorized the multiplication table. I give you a test, you get a 83. Right? That's a passable grade. You move on. But the parts that they didn't get,

that could be really key for the next phase of their education. Right. But they just, they get moved on. But in the homeschooling

environment, you get to say, okay, you didn't get 17%

of what you were tested. Let's go back and revisit the 17%.

And there's no labeling. There's no you're a b student, you're a c student, it doesn't matter. Let's get it all completely mastered

a 100%, and then you move on.

And

I feel like that gives the children freedom to make mistakes,

and it's through the mistakes that we learn the fastest. But I think our school systems teach their kids to be afraid of mistakes because they have their report card that they have to bring home to their parents. You know? Right. And they're labeled immediately. I'm good at math. I'm not good at math. I'm good at English. I'm not good you don't need to do that, really. I don't believe that. Right. I mean, one of the things that we talk a lot about on dispatch is is the importance of education and everything. Like, if you look at all the pain points in our society, it almost always goes back to education at some level,

whether that is Bitcoin related education or any other kind of education. We with the beef initiative, we talk about lack of, food intelligence, lack of this idea of where does your food come from, what is good quality food, like, how do you how are you nutritious, and you go right back as education, education, education.

But meanwhile,

like, the core of our society's education system is this is this government school

system, right, which is basically geared to the lowest common denominator. It's not really geared to individual students. You said this term child

led learning. Mhmm.

And I feel like that is really that captures that that captures the value prop, this idea that Mhmm.

It is actual education that's geared to these your individual children, not just

this concept of children. Right? Like, this, like Right. Like, everybody has to be at least average in all kinds of subjects.

And one of the books that I read really early on when the kids were little was a book by Jennifer Fox, and it's called Finding A Child's Strength. And she talked about how

going forward, when we compete against

the world, the whole the whole entire world, when you're talking about job, you know, job seek seeks seeker and, you know, corporations

and whatever.

You you think about

competing against

every country under the sun, right, who has access to the Internet.

And you can't be average. You have to be superb

in an area. And in order for you to do that, you have to be allowed to

pour your time and effort into that one area. So for example,

right now, I think, generally speaking, people believe that kids have to achieve a certain level of math accomplishment, right? Whether it's algebra or pre algebra, whatever.

But is that absolutely necessary? Because how many

life skills actually require the knowledge of algebra and how many job skills actually require the knowledge of algebra, and yet we spend

so much time making sure that every single child has

that level.

But if they use that same amount of time in an area the child is already strong at and naturally inclined

to excel at, then how much further can they go with that same amount of time invested?

So that's a that's a really great book, I think, for your listeners to maybe check out.

But that was really impactful for me to not try to get my kids up to, like, some average

level for every single subject,

but to really pick an area and excel in it.

So, I mean, you've never done this before. This is

the first time you've homeschooled children, presumably.

What was your what was your background before you?

My background?

I actually met my husband at business school, and the

our plan always was

I I was going to go into investment banking,

and our plan was always have a child, you know, stay at home for a few months, get a nanny, and then I was gonna go back to work.

And our first child was born, and I held her in my arms, and I looked at her, and I thought to myself,

I don't want

her to be raised by somebody else.

Because if I went back to investment banking,

I was going to leave the house before she woke up, and I was gonna come home after she went to bed. And I was never gonna see her, and she was not gonna know who I am, and I won't know her.

So we talked about it and decided that

he was gonna just be a single single income earner,

and, and I was gonna stay home with the kids. Well, at the time, one kid. But yeah.

And, we like I said before, we fell into this whole homeschooling thing because I didn't know it was an option. And then when I knew it was an option, I thought you have to have a teacher's degree.

But

since we started into it, I realized that there are so many options under the sun, so many different combinations

of ways to homeschool your child, and you can always outsource

a subject that you're not good at. There's so many resources out there. There's so much support, and there's a huge community.

And the number one come not complain. Number one concern that our families have when we decide to homeschool was,

your child's gonna be a hermit. Yep. You know, he, she will not be able to to have hold a conversation with anybody,

and that is the farthest thing from the truth. If you ever meet a homeschool child,

they can talk to anybody because they're in the world with their parents. They are

interacting with people of all ages, of all capacity, all roles, all the time. They're not

stuck in a classroom

in a teacher

student peer situation

most of the day. They are out there interacting, and so they actually

are much more comfortable

interacting with people socially

than I would say a a typical student. Yeah. I mean, you brought your kids to to Bitcoin Park the other day, and they were building seed signers.

Yep. Building their own hardware well.

That's interesting.

One thing that you mentioned was,

the idea of allowing

your children to

focus in on the areas that they are specifically

excited about or interested in. How do you find the balance between,

encouraging them to also,

you know, learn things that don't come as naturally to them

so I do I encourage them to pursue what they're interested in because we have the time to do it, because they are not spending the time commuting on the school bus, going to school and, you know, going from class to class. So they do have more time to do that. But at the same time,

I'm Chinese. And so the whole tiger mom thing comes into play just a little bit. And,

discipline was a huge, huge thing that I talked about with the kids.

And I remember specifically,

Brianna would be very unwilling. She is not a competitive

person, but we put them in sports for, you know, physical fitness, things like that. And

when she would be hesitant

because she

wasn't sure she was gonna win or

something required her to practice longer, like piano or something longer than she thought she should. Mhmm. Then that discipline comes into play, and I would tell her,

it's easy for you to do things that are easy to you.

It's hardest for you to do something

that you don't wanna

do do you don't want to do, but you should do

and you find challenging. And I did

give them a lot of lectures on that.

So really focusing in on the value of discipline

Yes. Using those as opportunities to hone that skill set specifically.

Yes. For the purpose of discipline, not for the purpose of, I think you should be, a master musician,

because you're just supposed to.

Nothing not not for that reason. Yeah. Absolutely. But I think that that sense of discipline

is

often lacking in students today because there's so many people who just say, oh, I'm not good at math, and therefore, they just kinda toss it out the window, and that's I'm just not good at that. I mean, the other thing we talk about a lot on dispatch

is,

this idea of personal responsibility and this idea that society has kind of groomed personal responsibility out of us. Mhmm. And, I mean, you see that in the government school system. Right? It's like Mhmm. The teachers aren't responsible for the kids because the parents are helicoptering parenting, but then the parents aren't responsible for the kids because they're in school with the teacher. So it's like, who is actually responsible for the kids' education? Is it the

Right. The child isn't responsible for themselves. Right. And it's just a completely broken incentive. Yeah. I think it'd be

really tough for a teacher to have 30 students there.

I mean, I I empathize with that. That would be really hard.

I just can't imagine that they would have the time to say, you know, this just happened. Let's take a moment and talk about responsibility. Right. Whereas your homeschooling,

if you ask our kids, everything was a lecture. Right. Right. It was

you get to take the garbage cans out. Why did you not do that? You know, and we and it could be a 10 minute discussion on doing the right thing even if it was cold outside or whatever it is. Right. And so you you're shaping their framework on how they view things. Mhmm.

And you just

they're they're gonna pick that up from somewhere. So it's probably gonna be their peers

or whatever social media or whatever it is that they get they're they're paying attention to. Mhmm. But when you're homeschooling, you have the opportunity to say, let me give you a viewpoint on how you approach difficulty,

responsibility,

fill in the blank with whatever you you want.

You get you're the one that gets to shape the framework that they're gonna use for other decisions and when you're not there

to help them. So you think that's the biggest hurdle for maybe young parents that want to

do homeschooling? Is is is that

all the discipline

responsibilities on them?

It's like, that that's something you can't, like, learn in a book. Right? That's like,

you have to actually

be willing to do it. Yeah. I think it's fear,

and I think there's an unrealistic expectation that you have to be the expert on every subject. Right. Like, oh, I couldn't teach biology or whatever it was, and and it's always right. You can outsource

almost any subject. So how does that look, the outsource? You know? Right. Kids gonna learn biology. You you're not a biologist.

Right. So I think most cities would have homeschooler co ops,

and also a lot of private schools would offer college school programs

for homeschoolers. So it's almost like part time private school. So for example, in Louisville, there is a place where I think a lot of,

homeschoolers with high school kids would send their kids to, and they go to school 2 days a week and they do their homework at home 3 days a week and the parents

don't teach at all, they monitor.

Right. So that's an option.

And then you can also do So that's not what you do? I didn't I did some of that. Okay.

For example, I wanted the kids to learn Latin, and I was not about to go teach them Latin because I I don't know Latin.

I also try to teach them science in the very beginning, but the setup

and prepping for the science experiments took so much time. I just couldn't do it. So I outsource those. Musical theater, I think, is super, super important for literally everybody because it teaches them how to get over stage fright, present themselves,

speak well in front of people. So I think that's really important, but you can't do that at home. So I send them to Right. A co op to do musical theater drama, that type of stuff. So, yeah, just combination. There's so many

resources out there. There's no reason for anybody to be afraid of it unless they just haven't been directed where to go and look for solutions.

Interesting.

Do you feel

like do you feel like

the experience of

being an educator or really adopting a role as educator rather than only as parent

has changed the way

that you view your own education?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

I think we grew more than the kids did. I don't Mhmm.

I I had no idea going into it what to to expect,

but it yeah. It's just you you have to go through it. You have to experience it. It's hard to to tell if I told you how to do a podcast versus you actually having to set it up and having to to to do it,

there's something in the actual action and being responsible

for that. But

I have no formal podcast education. No. Just trial by fire.

And that's true for parenting, really.

It really is. And homeschooling,

I think,

is exactly the same thing. And I think I had more fun than my kids when I was homeschooling Yeah. Because I was learning so much. I learned more trying to

learn enough to teach them than I did going through all the brand name schools. Mhmm. And

I would take a book and instead of

handing it over to them, I would read it and be like, this is so cool. I love this book. You know, I will order books and they will come in, you know, in the in the boxes, and I'll open, like, I love these books, and I would just hug them. Or helpful. I get so excited.

That's fantastic.

What's what's been the hardest thing for you to

do as part of this process? What's been the most challenging aspect of homeschooling your children?

I think it doesn't have to do with homeschooling per se. To me, the biggest challenge was I had switched jobs a couple times, and

Tolly took

she spent hours and hours and hours trying to find the right activities and the right resources in an area. And when you disrupt that,

if, you know, if I could go back, I think that might be one thing that I would try to change because it it disrupted all those things, and you have to kinda, like, reset

and and restart

the actual

the actual teaching part.

It's not I mean, kids are really resilient. Right? If you if you messed up and you didn't teach whatever you thought you were gonna teach them,

like, they're just really resilient, and you can catch up on almost anything. Plus homeschools

365.

It's not like you have this oh, the summer they're they're off. Our kids didn't understand what a vacation was because

Tali just kept on going. And if we were taking time off because we wanted to go do a trip, we did it. We had that flexibility. But it wasn't, like, the same time every year? No. And that And it was you know, it could be the middle of summer. They didn't understand that way other people are not in school. So you're you there's no

that When I grew up, that's the best feeling ever, that the day before

summer break.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. My poor kids never knew that. You all run out you all run out of school together just, like, screaming. Yeah. School's out. School's out.

I going back to your question, Pete, about the challenges, I think

I think the the biggest challenge was

feeling 100%

responsible for your child and how they, hopefully children, and how they turn out. Because I have nobody to blame except myself because I'm it. I am the parent, I'm the teacher, I'm the principal, I'm the counselor, I am

everything.

And

there were so many times when I wanted to quit. There were so many times when I just, I was talking to Skye, Leah, and I'll be like, I

I can't do it anymore. I have I have to send them to school because I'm gonna go crazy.

But it was more it was not because the kids were difficult. It was

all the pressure

the on myself that I had to make sure they were emotionally healthy and they were physically healthy. So I'm trying to cook the dinner while they are doing their homework, so

I never got a break. There was no break for me because it was when they were resting, I was prepping for class. When they were doing class, I was cooking. When I was driving, I was

memorizing poems with them when I was driving. I was playing star it was like there was no breaks. So that was the biggest challenge. And for for anybody who's thinking about homeschooling

out there, I would just say, take care of yourself first.

That's number 1. In in what way?

As in,

yes, you are responsible

a 100%, but

you can outsource.

Mhmm. Right. And and you don't need to be perfect. I think that's the biggest message I wanna tell people. You don't have to be perfect and your kids will turn out great.

So don't don't be too hard on yourself is kind of the My my impression is some people think homeschoolers,

they just let their kids do nothing all day. They're just Right. Sitting around. My impression is the opposite. Mhmm. They're really intense. The kind of the tiger mom type of thing that Tali's talking about.

Mhmm. And you put these expectations on yourself that are so hard that you just like, well, I can fit one more activity in. I can do one more thing.

And it's a self pressure that you Right. They're competing with these kids in school that are just constantly learning all the time. You, like, build it up in your head. Right? We build up, and then we're like, oh, shit, obviously. Right. Exactly. That's not that's not actually real because what 90% of the time I was in school, I was not learning anything. Right? It was just like Absolutely.

Yeah. I think when we first started,

some of the season homeschooling mamas were saying,

don't think you're not doing enough because you're already doing more than what

other kids are are getting in school because there's so much travel time, transition time,

you know, going from class to class and then setting up, taking down all that stuff. And

we because we don't have to do that, we were already ahead by several hours per day, and then the individual attention we give to the kids

far surpasses

how many hours they sit in the classroom in a corner at a desk. Yeah. It's almost I think it's almost ironic, you know, the self pressure about the responsibility of what you have.

And to me, and I can say this because it's a Bitcoin audience. It's like yourself. You've taken self custody of your education. Yeah. There's so much overlap there. You're you're being responsible.

Mhmm.

You're you're responsible

for it, and,

I don't know. I have some other things on that depending where you wanna go. Well, that's like what Tali was saying where she's like, one of the biggest hurdles is that you feel this immense personal responsibility over everything Mhmm. Because there's no one else to blame. But the truth of the matter is, like, even if you send your kid to

to state school, like,

it's still your fault if the kid turns out bad. Like, if your child like, this idea that that person doesn't have responsibility

is, like, this crazy thing that we've just

turned in our in our society where it's, like, we have excuses. That's not our fault.

The teachers are crap. You know? This is bad. All these reasons why the kid turned out bad, not Mhmm. That, you know, you were not a responsible parent in the first place. Yep.

Right. And I think, really, all kids wanna know is that they matter to you. And it's how do you demonstrate that they matter to you? You spend time with them. And that's one of the things that that I've just recently

started to really think about is

this whole

quality versus quantity of time discussion. I think there's been this really huge push

for people to believe that they can have it all.

They can have the career and the family and be parents and everything, and the most important part is the quality time. You know, you you take them out on a trip and you spend quality time or you take them bowling as quality time. And I'm not saying any of that is bad. It's all very important,

but there are quantity of time that just needs to be there so that you can notice the little things because life is the little things. Like if your child, you know, has a nosebleed and you're there and you're holding the tissue over the nose and go, this is how you apply pressure, like little things like that,

they add up and then they trust you and they tell you stuff. And

the discussions that we have

over the kitchen counter, I think have been so key

as a part of the homeschooling education. It's not just about the economics at all because in the end,

how well you read or how well you can write essays. It just doesn't matter as much as

do they believe

they matter, number 1, to their parents, and also how do they interpret

the world around them, right, in a healthy way. And I think a lot of young people are really missing that.

They have been their parents at least buy into the quality time thing. So they take the the family trips, and they take the family photos, and it's everything looks really pretty. But

inside,

they they don't have the

the little moments that add up

that give some guidance, and so then they rely on their peers. But it's kind of like young people leading young people sometimes can feel like the blind leading the blind because nobody knows more. Oh, geez. Nobody knows more. And then they go on social media, which is even scarier. Oh my god. But your parents love you, and they have wisdom,

you know, of several decades over your current life experience. And if they're not able to share that with the kids, I think it's so easy for the kids to be swayed

by what's going on in society that and most of it is not very helpful to them. Yeah. If I could

maybe use that

to highlight the negative side that you try to avoid too. So we've been talking and I love it focusing on the positives Yeah. Of homeschooling. Let's dive in. There's a there's a negative that you avoid

too. So there in my view, it's like the you know, you talk about separation

of of government and and money. It's in this case, it's separation of the government and school. Right. Education. And it's it's like indoctrination.

Right? So so not only are they not teaching about how money

is, and we, like, we bought games to teach money when the kids were young, and that's not surprising. Right?

So it's you're you're lacking that, but they're also picking up other things. There could be an agenda from the the teacher. There can be an agenda that comes down as part of the

curricula. There could be there's a lot of things that you can avoid

that when you when you don't homeschool, you're you're basically saying, I trust somebody else. I'm gonna trust that they're gonna guide my kids correctly. I'm gonna trust that they're gonna teach them

the right way of looking at history, the right way of looking at fill in the blank type of thing.

And so that's the flip side of you get to do all the positive things. You also get to avoid

some of the things where you're relying on trust on someone else to to do it. Yeah. I mean, a key aspect of of government schooling is is to get children

to respect,

you know,

respect authority and be a be a quote, unquote functioning member of society that doesn't ask questions, that's just willing to go along with what's best for the country, so to speak. Right. Conformity. It's like a social score. Right? Yeah. That's like a that that is one of the reasons why you see these these state school systems got built out in the first place. Right? Was, like, how do we take these millions of people,

and have them all work together for the best for the state. Right? Turn into a productive economic asset. Yeah. Because we talk about we talk about incentives all the time, right, in Bitcoin. And

Mhmm. And it's the same same situation here. So is what are what are the incentives? Are the incentives flawed? Are they broken,

or do they make sense? Right? And if you if you talk about parents with their children, I mean, they have the strongest incentive enliven possible.

Like, you want your kids to be the best they can possibly be. Right. And, ultimately, it goes all the way to the point of, you're gonna be old at some point, and then they're gonna be taking care of you. Right? So you have massive skin in the game. While if you look at school systems, what are their incentives? Right? Their incentives are

no one acts out of line. You want everyone to be, you know, quote, unquote, functionally members of society that don't cause disruptions, that are just productive

economic units.

Yep. Incentives. I agree. Yep. Yeah. I mean, the traditional school system, the goal is to basically keep people occupied because you get paid for every day that the student is in school rather than That's the incentive. Yeah. So so I have

a follow-up question to that because I was actually gonna go in that route,

before you brought it up, Scott. And so the follow-up question is, as Bitcoiners, obviously,

I think, in general, we self select for people that are contrarian,

that go against authority, that think outside the box. We value that as a very positive

trait.

Now if most children aren't that and I actually saw it when I was raised, like, up until

I mean, 2008 was a big, you know,

curtain draw for me that

a lot of what we were taught was bullshit, and, you know, there aren't really adults in the room that know what they're talking about

and and that, you know, society is like this massive house of cards that we all just pretend is not a house of cards. But up until that point, I was very indoctrinated.

You know? I was very rah rah America.

I told my mom at one point I wanna join the army. She told me

essentially to go fuck myself.

Did you know I was in the army, by the way? I did not know that.

So, anyway, my question was so I kinda came to it myself after

most of my government schooling.

But my question is,

a child that

isn't subservient

in that way,

right, isn't indoctrinated,

are there have you know obviously, we know the positive points that can come from that. I I I wonder,

do you notice, like, negative

points where someone of that age is, like, thinking for themselves maybe a little bit too much. Like, I don't know. Like, is that do you does that make sense? Do you wanna do you wanna go first? Yeah. Why don't you go first?

I can only speak to my own 4 kids,

and

I'm actually really happy that

they think outside the box. They do.

Because

when they graduated high school, I send them overseas. I wanted them to get out of the homeschooling community, the Christian community, and I I told them the world is very big, and this is a very tiny part of it, and you need to go see.

And they each came back and said,

we don't like what we saw because it's really

sad. You know?

I think

Brianna was

sent to London during COVID, and

she and, you know, in the UK, the drinking age is 18. Right. Right? And so these are pre freshman

kids. They're mostly 18. They're

so excited. Right? They get to the airport. They get to the hotel. I mean, they're there. Say they? Was she part of a larger group? She was part of a an educational group. She got there and everybody split.

Everybody went to the pub Right. To get drunk. And she called us. And I what are you doing calling us? You this is your first night there. Are Are are you supposed to be hanging out with your new friends? And she goes, everybody's gone.

What?

So then it was a whole semester of people throwing up in the hallway, people throwing up the tub, you know, and she she stood her ground. She was like, I don't I don't need to do that. I can go out and have a good time, and I don't need to do that. So she thought outside the box, and I was really proud of her for doing that.

And Alea went to

Hawaii,

and her group,

they didn't have access

to pubs and bars because she was,

in a work study program, but there were a lot of kids who showed up to the program and go, thank god we left our family. It's just, I I can't stand them, and I'm so happy I'm away. And then I was like, why would you say that? I tell my mom everything. And And they're like, why would you tell your mom everything?

And she goes, because we've always just told each other everything. And so she they just thought so so differently. There was such a separation

of the kids from their family, and I'm I'm guessing it's because

they they've been separate. They went on the trips with weren't all homeschooled kids?

None of them were. Oh, okay. Just Yeah. Just my kids. That was kind of their first exposure without us there to Got it. To to guide them. Mhmm. It's all you wanted to get them exposure out, and she said, let's go see the world. I'll we'll we'll find a program.

And we were expecting them to go and, wow, I got to see all these great places and meet new people.

And they kinda came back with what Tali

was just describing

was, well, these people They're animals. Well, it wasn't just animals. It's just they just didn't

they could relate to the food. Separation between them and the and their family. Yeah. Because they've been they they go to school and they're just separate. Right?

And and another thing I wanted to say is there's that is it okay if I talk about woke stuff? Yeah. Oh, okay. Openly? You can talk about whatever you wanna talk about.

So there's My grandmother asked me once how I didn't get kicked off the radio for cursing so much. Oh, okay. This is this is the the great beyond of podcasting. We can talk about it through you. We're in the hinterland. Because that's that's that's one of the things that

that, that really just blew my mind was this huge, huge push for the the woke agenda Yeah. Even in these overseas programs.

And I just remember Brianna landing in London. And the first class she was in, her professor called her out and said, what do you think about

transitioning gender transition?

Wow. 1st class

and

compare that to a child growing into an adult.

And Brianna said, well, one is a natural process

and one is an all natural process. And that was all she said.

And later on that program, she was called out

on that by another student who was a

gender fluid person. Right. And

literally the entire program was sat down and the one person in the middle

telling everybody how they have microaggression.

What is the verb for that? Microaggressed. I don't think what it is. She was offended by everything. Right. There's Microaggression.

Personally attacked by everything. And so Brianna just felt like I can't even discuss it

intelligently. I can't just I can't talk freely about how I feel. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. It was she completely shut down because she said, what is the point? Nobody's gonna listen to me because there is only one right answer.

And it was the same thing for my other kids in other programs.

It was this huge push, like, gender is fluid. It doesn't the biological

fact is not bio is not a fact. And

it was a work study program. Right. It's conformity over over discussion. Right? Yes. Yes. So, like, when when you and Slim were doing your talk and somebody was pushing back saying, where's the proof? Where's the proof? Right. Right? It's a very

my impression I mean, I'm only couple years trying to learn this stuff, but my impression is

it's it's show me. Like, I don't trust you. Show me. Verify. Right. Don't do this. Verify.

And no one was offended by it. It wasn't like you stood up and said,

we're not gonna do that here. Right. It was there. And what Tali is describing is the opposite. So when you're when you're homeschooling,

you're you're asking the kids to think,

what is your opinion? I want you to do this. You're gonna you actually have to so in their minds, that's just the way that things are. You think for yourself. You ask me a question, I tell you. Mhmm.

Our our daughter goes out and she gets shut down, and now the program is saying

you can't talk. It's it's like the opposite of the If you oppose what we tell you,

then you're a bigot. It's not even opposition. It's if you ask, but you're labeled If you have a yes. If or if you say I thought you have a believe.

So I was actually very proud that that our kids

thought outside the system and thought outside the box and stood their ground, but they paid a price for it. Right. So

That's interesting.

Mhmm. Do you feel like

one of the things that I experienced, I went through

the traditional education system, and I I actually had a a very similar relationship

with my parent. I have a very similar relationship and growing up to the one that it sounds like you have with your children, where I was, even though I spent a lot of time in the traditional education system,

that kind of thinking

and

the the discipline involved was something that my parents really heavily instilled in me. Mhmm.

And

I feel like one of the things that I benefited from kind of, perversely or maybe,

despite it was that

it kind of hardened me to being in situations with support from my parents where I was surrounded by people who

were

very shut down and were sort of forced to conform. And I had the support of my parents to, like, you you have to

it's on you to kind of to think outside the box and to really kind of confront people with that in a way where they can understand how you're trying to communicate. Anyway Mhmm. This is a long winded way of asking. Do you feel like

your

those experiences

were ultimately positive for your children? Do you feel like they came through those sort of having that experience and having a better sense of how they

can navigate those situations

the same way that maybe I did. I think we're still in it.

I think she's in that in the example where we're walking through,

she's still dealing with that.

And I mean, she's moving on. She's she's doing other other things.

But I mean, that's her her first experience away from it. It really shook her. She she really was was shaken by that.

So I don't think you stop learning. In the same way, if you're an adult and you have a bad relationship

or something else happens,

you're not you're not over it instantly. And I think so for me, I'm really proud of

the way they they went through those,

but I they're not back to where they were

before they went. It it impacted

who they who they are and how they they think. Mhmm.

And

I wish I could say, yeah, they're all a 100%, and they're just happy again, but it was almost like you went from, I don't wanna say it was protected, but you went from an environment where they thought one way about the world, and then they saw that the world wasn't

that's not the way the world really was, and so there's all types of emotional things that they went through. I think they're

they're just that's just their journey, and that's what we all, when we go through different age, went through whatever we went through. Mhmm. And so,

so I'm really proud of them, but I don't think their hits over.

Yeah. And and you said, are they better for it? I think they all 3 of them would say, yes. We are better for it because we learned

what we believe aside from apart from the family because before it was always,

you know, what mom and dad thought that was what they assumed they thought. They had to step away to separate themselves from us and decide what they believe,

so they now have a better understanding of what they believe themselves,

but the scars

carry through and they are still trying to work through that. And then what I really like too, it's actually kinda cool in a way, it's a little scary, but

so we have 4, and one of our

second oldest has almost become like a almost got it like a counselor.

They can help coach each other. Yeah. So we've because we've developed

how they should treat each other with respect and take responsibility, all the things we were just going through,

they're there for each other. And sometimes

one might feel more comfortable opening up to one of their siblings Mhmm. And working through things.

As a parent, I find that really hard because I wanna be the one that is there to do whatever. I wanna be the one that helps.

Mhmm. But, we've developed

within the family unit a support system because they support each other too. So it's,

I think that's it's a side note, but it's I found that it's it's a result of all those other things. They now

appreciate what they went through. They have a perspective on it,

and now they can relate to each other. There's a big corner of Jimmy Song. I think he has 6 children.

He said after the third one, they just start raising themselves.

Self perpetuating

algorithms.

He's like, the first three are the most difficult, and then after that. What's your own defense?

I mean, this is a little bit tangential, I think, but,

I wonder if that is and, obviously, me and Pete don't have any children,

So we're just completely

diving in here,

and trying to learn from from you guys.

I feel like maybe one of the challenge points for some people who choose to do homeschooling is

that they would rather indoctrinate their kids on what they believe rather than

empowering them to be independent critical thinkers.

I mean, I I assume you guys know a lot of other families that have chose to do homeschooling. Have you seen that as a pain point for some families that, like,

their main goal of or or not their not even intentionally. Right? It's just, like, they're just trying to create mini mes rather than, like, new independent people?

Yeah. We have seen we have seen families like that.

I think

the amazing thing about children is that they pick up things that are not taught to them. Right.

And they will, unless they've been locked in the closet, which I don't know anybody who does that.

Homeschoolers are out there all the time interacting, interacting.

So even kids who are raised

very, very strict

and literally

with one option,

you know, in their beliefs

because of the the family beliefs, they are still constantly being exposed to other kids and other families because they're out there and they have the freedom to interact and

and talk and ask questions and and really question each other even. So I'm not too too worried about that, unless the families just only stay within their family or they have us or girlfriends who believe exactly the same thing. I don't think there's any way that the kids are not gonna be exposed to other beliefs.

And, eventually,

as a person matures, you can't help but try to form your own identity. That's just a natural process,

so But would you agree with me that if

if there were, like, new parents listening right now, that a key fundamental

of going this route is that you are trying to empower the child Absolutely. To make their own decisions rather than.

Yeah, yeah, critical thinking for sure, and I probably tell my kids way too much because I am always

explaining to them why I have come to a conclusion or why I have come to a decision. If I make them do anything, I give them, like, a half an hour lecture on why I'm making them do something to the point where they would look at me like, mom, okay, that's enough. We just tell us we need to do it.

But I feel that if I explain to them my thinking process, then they know how I at least the steps mental steps that I took to arrive there, and they can maybe emulate that in their own mind and make their own decisions. And if you meet our kids, I don't think you got to talk to, the 2 that came the other time. But if you meet them and talk to them, you can see very quickly that they are very, very different people and very different people from us even,

and we actually take pride on that.

Right. I don't think even if we'd set out to make mini me's,

I don't

I just don't think that's the way that we

were built. I I just don't think it you could What a humanity or you? No. Humanity. Like, I just don't think if you said, you know, my kid's gonna be this way and that's it,

I

good luck. I don't know. I just don't I there's certain things that I

I had hoped that they would do. Like, I had gone in the service, and I had hoped that at least one of them, but I don't think any of them will.

Mhmm. You could feel you might someone might be in a different journey with their their religious,

status. It could be the academic. It could be,

I don't wanna get too personal on some of the other things going on with the relationships or whatnot, but they're not doing

what we would want them what we would do. They're not Right. Enemies. And I just I just don't even know if we had tried to do that. I

don't see how anybody could

could really do that. I just

That's interesting because my experience, I've seen a lot of

and not

not homeschooling specific. Right? Just seeing a lot of parents that Want their kids to be exactly like them. Yeah. And, like, this is the way you Name names. I wanna know who you're talking about, Matt.

Yeah. No. I Are they successful?

Yeah. Do they do it? Who? The the people you know. Like, are they are they successfully creating mini me's? Yeah.

I mean, to a degree, I I I haven't seen, you know,

I haven't followed up with the case studies to see, like, how the kids have turned your monthly checking report? Yeah. How the kids have turned out, but Well, the speaker would be I mean, you see it in, like, you see it in state school a lot.

Like,

my experience going through school or whatever where the kids, you know, were I'm, like, 14 years old, 15 years old, and, like,

the opinions and thought processes and perspectives of the child

are essentially just a direct rip of the parent.

And the kid doesn't know why he thinks that or why that's the absolute truth. They just

it just, you know,

drilled into them from a young age. And I just assume

I assume with homeschooling, that can be to the even worse extreme just because they have

full right? They're they have the full attention of the child. They don't have the other

necessarily, other aspects. And maybe even,

you know, maybe you you don't see the

the worst

versions of that

because those are the ones that

are in so, I mean, you made the joke, which is, like, that stereotype of, like, the negative homeschooling environment where Harry Potter's locked in his cupboard. Right? Where, like, he can't see anybody.

But a less extreme version of that where they aren't really

exposed to other opinions. They aren't, you know, necessarily,

you know, in public and get to choose, you know, their route or where they're going.

There's probably extreme cases of that. I think there has to be, but I also think, you know, just when you said earlier that children are incredibly adaptable. I feel like it's like it's almost like trying to, like, you know, cup water in your hands. It's like Mhmm. People

will find and I think especially as they're growing up, people find access to information

even when you try to prevent them from getting access to it. And so I feel like we're in a lot of situations, the more pressure that parents try to put on their children to be a certain way, Even if they're homeschooled, you know, the Harry Potter analogy. Right. Like, they're gonna they're gonna look up weird shit on their phone, and they're gonna be like, you know, what is this thing? How do I get access to it? And they're gonna seek it it out. Well, that's a whole different element, which Yeah. You know, not apparent yet, but scares the shit out of me, which is, like, the balance of Internet,

social media, like, not wanting a kid that, you know, is not a like, I would I would like my kid to be fluent with computers and technology and

but also, you know, social networks

are predatory by design.

You need to you need to talk to them, and you need to talk to them, and you need to talk to them, and you need to talk to them, and you just talk to them, and you just talk to them. You just talk to them. Well, then you and then you need to let and then you need to trust them. And then And then you need to trust them. They're gonna make their own mistakes.

Mhmm. And

you're just one thing's a 100% sure. At some point, you're not gonna be next to them when they have to make a decision on something. Right. So

my point of view is you do your best to prepare them on how to, again, going back to the frameworks, how to think about things.

And then at some point you're going to you're going to have to take a leap of faith

and and trust them to

take action on their own. Mhmm. And

and, I mean, a a kid learns to walk by falling down. They you you ride a bike, you fall down. Mhmm. There's no way you can teach them a 100% of the things

to you know, they're gonna be exposed to whatever on social media or pornography

or whatever it is that violence, whatever it might be,

drugs,

at some point, they're gonna have to make their own decision when you're not there. And so you're I think the best thing you can do is you try to talk and talk and talk and prepare them.

Let them know you're they you're there if they ever need you no matter what.

It's, you know, just whatever happens, we're here for you.

But at some point, you have to

you're gonna have to let go. And I don't don't see how anybody could really keep that level of control that you were you were describing. I

at least I personally don't see how

how you could do that. I think you're there's too many ways of getting other information. Mhmm. And if you have more than 1 kid, you can't physically be with them all the time anyway. So, I think you're gonna have I wanna add something to that also. Before you trust them, you talk to them first. So for example, when when my kids were

my oldest

was,

I don't know, like, 5 or 6 or whatever.

And we were with a family friend and she said, have you talked

to your child about sex? And I said, why would I talk to her about sex? She's 5 or 6. And she said, she knows nothing right now, so you'd be the first to plant an idea in her mind that it is sacred. It's a sacred act. It's not something you throw around?

And I thought, ew, that's weird because I don't wanna talk about that,

but I ultimately

did.

And it was is there's a series of books that that actually talk about that subject in a very

general

general way. So you're not, you know, yeah, nothing weird, like, too crazy, but you start planting seeds. You just gotta start planting seeds. And so

if you plant seeds when you're 5, 6, and you continue to talk about how important it is to value your

your body and,

and take relationships and friendships seriously, then by the time they their hormones kick in, they're going into puberty, they already have heard that. You You don't even have to say it. You have a foundation. Yeah. So when like I said, when my friend mentioned that to me, I was like, that is the weirdest, wackiest. Why would I wanna go there? But I'm really glad that I did, and I did it with my first three. And then the 4th one, when he was old enough, I said, okay. Let's sit down. He goes,

you don't need to tell me anything. I already know everything. And I said,

what? And he just recited.

He's been like, oh, he recited this stuff to me. I'm like, okay. I guess you got it. Never mind. So so, Matt, did we answer your question, though? I don't know if we did. I feel like I think you did.

I have a question. You mentioned something interesting, which is that you

had hoped that one of your children would go into the service. And I think Mhmm. A lot of people think we've been talking about how in traditional education system,

it is, you know, really the system that's designed to kind of,

you know, turn people into productive units of society. And I think a lot of people would view military service in a kind of a similar way potentially.

Even more than more so. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious where that comes from and sort of how

how you think about

military service

versus traditional education and why one is

preferable or ID you know, ideal versus another. And do you still believe that? Do you do you still

wish that at least one of them went into the service?

Their

that their ages are on now. It's it's kind of done. I don't they're not gonna they're not gonna go.

So to me, the I didn't know what I really wanted to do when I was 18. And for me,

the the service was an opportunity where

where it kinda kept you. It had some boundaries.

And

the military, I think, is really good about putting people through experiences together.

You go through whether it's boot camp or whatever. You you go through tough times together, and then you

you bond and you learn about

things and you you there's just something different about that experience. And if you don't know what you want to do, it can help with structure.

And I and so for me personally,

I I grew personally

because of that. And I because I I just kind of otherwise lost. I didn't have a goal to be just a doctor or a lawyer or some people know they wanna be a pilot, whatever. I didn't have that.

So for me, it does that. And

and honestly, I the I didn't understand. I went through the public school system growing up

and we would do the pledge of allegiance and we learned history and whatever it was. And I I just thought the whole world was the way

it, you know, it was here.

And I didn't fully understand

that the freedoms that we have, we have a lot of things wrong with the government. It's definitely too big.

There's a lot of things we can go down with that. On the other hand,

we are really blessed with a lot of things here. We do have the First Amendment. We have the Second Amendment. We can talk about all the craziness that's going on,

but no society has ever been perfect. And I and I strongly believe that

we have a really good thing here.

And someone has to

someone has to do the right thing. It's not it's not it's not free,

and the idea of what services now, I look at like Congress and quote unquote service, and you got, you know, inside trader Pelosi, whatever else is going on there, and I'm like, these people are just, they're just,

they're like a different, they're their little political

class.

That was not the intent. If you go back to we're supposed to have limited government, we're supposed to have our freedoms,

like those things to me are still really valuable, and I think,

yeah, we have a lot of flaws and a lot of bad things going on right now. But the idea of of service and serving that ideal in the constitution, I still think, yeah, I I I do strong. I have a lot of strong feelings with that, and

a I get very upset when I see people just flaunting it and tearing it down and trying to rewrite history.

And I'm like, you you're an idiot. You have no idea what you're talking about. You have if you actually experienced

what you think you're describing,

you would hate it.

And

so I guess

I think military services

is not for everyone.

But I do think that most of the people in the service,

their hearts are in the right place. They're serving for the right reasons.

You have soldiers

on food stamps, right? And you compare that to the people getting rich and

quote unquote serving in political office.

So,

so I still I still feel very strongly about

the the military,

but as far as our kids,

I have to respect the fact that

that's not that's not their thing. They don't wanna they don't wanna There is a dichotomy there. Right? Like, homeschooling versus

modern day military service, I would say. I mean, I I when you when when you're when you're in the military, you signed an oath.

You swore an oath to the constitution, to uphold the constitution.

You didn't swear an oath to corrupt politicians.

But

Sorry. Yes. Yeah. But in practice this is Scott's first time on a podcast,

So I need to keep reminding him to put the mic up.

But in practice

in in practice, they're

you're you're basically a pawn for the corrupt political class. Right?

Right.

Right. Right. And then and that was one of the things I had a hard time

reading, like the first like when I and the Bitcoin standard, we talk about how you can have endless wars Right. Because of the money system.

It it I had to it took me a while to really think on

on that because I'm like, oh, wait a minute. So those in service, are they are they upon? Right. I wasn't using those words, but

that is a that is a struggle. And so,

so if I'm if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying

you should if you want these freedoms, don't be a pawn. Therefore, don't go into service.

Is that kind of what your your logic No. I mean, it's just a weird it's,

I agree with you that

most people that go into military service do it for the,

quote, unquote, right reasons, or their heart is in the right place

to uphold the constitution, to uphold,

quote, unquote, American values, the things that we care about.

I just

and and we want as many people in our nation's military,

and I would even go as far as, say, police force and whatnot that actually believe in those things and don't just blindly respect authority.

Correct. Right?

But in practice,

those people are usually crushed,

and the result

is

the remainder are the ones that will just blindly follow authority.

And I'm trying to be delicate here because

I know it's cliche, but thank you for your service. I like respect and grateful for everyone that has served.

But those people tend to be crushed,

and then the remainder are the ones that blindly respect authority, and that authority is is, at this point in our nation's

development, is

incredibly corrupt, like, at its core.

And we saw that to the extreme

during the response to COVID

where

anyone who refused to get the vaccine

was kicked out of our military

and was kicked out of police forces. So, literally, the only people you have left over

is the subservient class, the the people that are just willing to take it no matter what. Whatever you say, I'll do it. Right? And willing to turn a blind eye when

the person that was serving next to them

is,

you know, is is made destitute and and put out on the street, essentially. Right, and not able to support their family because they've lost they've lost their career. Yeah. I found that very disturbing what happened with all that. I mean, that's the extreme. Right? But we were already trending that way,

and then it was, you know, like, Parker Parker Lewis gradually then suddenly. Right? Like, there was a gradual

push in that direction,

and then we had, like, the sudden Band Aid rip of

the COVID response. Mhmm.

And it should be interesting to see how that all plays out. But, I mean, we had a close friend

who was

working with us at Bitcoin Magazine,

me and p,

and he

was in the military.

And he had actually retired

a

couple months before

he had done his his he he had done his service, and he retired according to their their scheme. Right? And he was getting his he was he was on track to get his military pension.

And they said as a retired person

that he needed to comply with the vaccine mandate. Otherwise, he wouldn't get his pension.

So we saw that firsthand and him battling with that. Yeah.

And he was ultimate he's like, I'm gonna fight this to the end,

at a principle. You know? I'm not gonna just fucking do this thing. He's like, even if I wanted to take the vaccine, like, I'm not complying with this shit. Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, it's just crazy to witness.

You know, I I agree. There's it is the but, I mean, if we if we get the money if we can fix the money, then we can there's a lot of things, you know, including the Fix the incentives. There's broken incentives everywhere. Mhmm. Right? Mhmm.

Okay.

This has been a great conversation. We're a little bit over an hour in. Let's

shall we talk about this awesome this awesome board game you created? And I I once again, I I said this to I said this at the beginning of the episode, but I said this to Scott and Tali when we played the game.

I don't say this lightly when I say it's the best Bitcoin game I've ever played.

I played many Bitcoin games. A lot of people want feedback.

When you asked, for feedback and when I met you for the first time, like, literally no idea who you were.

You were standing in Bitcoin Park, and you're like, I have this Bitcoin game. In the back of my head, I was like, well, it seems like a nice guy, but the game definitely

sucks. I was like, but I'll play with him. I like I like games. I like competition. Like, I'll play the game.

And

it wasn't just like a shitty game with, like, Bitcoin bolted on. It's a good game. Like, it's just a good game regardless of of Bitcoin.

And and yeah. So

at that point, after we recorded that after we recorded after we played that game, which by the way, I won and beat Scott. I was wondering if that was gonna come up. And I even caught Scott not following his own rules. I called him out at one point because I was keeping don't trust verify freaks. That's right.

Very proud. I was like, we have to do a dispatch on this game and homeschooling because you guys are just

massive amount of knowledge in your heads.

I don't wanna keep it to myself. But, anyway, let's talk about this game. It's called Huddle Up.

People can find it at free market kids.com. Fantastic name.

Give us let's start us off, Scott. Give us the show. So, it's, I appreciate those those words, and I it it I was, just blown away that you would actually give the time to actually

have a stranger walk up to you and ask a a favor.

I was just kinda, like, I was just kinda wowing the whole way home. Tali's like,

you know, why is this big deal? I'm like, don't you understand? Like, this is so thanks for, thanks for that. The the

this this combines such a few passions

for me, so I've always liked games. There's a lot of benefits to them.

The fellowship, the in person, you're away from the screen time. There's a lot of there are a lot of things. But since we're talking about education, there's there's also a lot of educational benefit. So when the kids were young, for example, we we bought the Kiyosaki

cash flow for kids, and

they're always looking for other ways to make the education

the education wasn't always just about the ABCs and and math. So Tali's like, I'm gonna put them into

I I can't remember all the different activities. But then so this the the games was just another way of of of teaching.

When I met in business school, so we we've kind of

we're inclined towards the the financial and economic side. Anyways, we're like, we better how can 2 MBAs not teach their kids about things? And

the the games are kind of like the overlap of that. It was it was I want my kids to understand

what this is. I have

a lot of other ideas of things I want to teach them,

and they are not always receptive. Our kids are not always receptive.

They think it's another lecture. You know, dad's excited about something. Mom's on a tangent on whatever, whatever it is.

And and this is a way where I we could I could selfishly do something with my family. My my parents included, my brother included.

They're they don't understand why Tali and I are passionate about about bitcoin, but

they were willing to for 2 years

help me playtest this game and work things out. That's so cool. Mhmm. So

okay. So

I I there I don't have to strong-arm them into

doing this.

I have to and it was actually good. My brother and I, we go to a game conference every every year. We just love it. And so we use we're play testing. It's like, what's this wallet thing? And we we need to be able to do this. And I go, no. You can't do that because you can't do that in Bitcoin. He's like, well, I don't really care. It's a game.

And so I it it forced me

to go back and do more research, and so it forced me to learn better

what this really was. And, of course, the more I learned,

the the more hardened I became about the the opportunity and and, more excited I got about it.

But long story short, this is a way this is what I would like to have to selfishly to be able to get with my own family. And then Holly was like, well, kinda put your money where your mouth is with these with these ideas. We're always telling the kids they should

start a business.

There's a lot of opportunities. You don't have to look at the traditional schooling like universities,

and that was that's where it started.

It was just a combination. I was passionate about the subject,

and to this day,

the kids are well, one of one of our our daughters is

is actually excited about investing in Bitcoin.

But

someday what I'm hoping is they they come back. Maybe it's a few years or whatever it is, and they're gonna say, okay, now I'm ready. And now I have this all packaged up. I have the game,

there were so many elements I couldn't put into it. I said, I'll just put those into a book on the side,

and that's what the I'm I'm building the, basically, I'm just learning through games 21 Bitcoin lessons

that you could go with the game. And so, selfishly, this is what I wanted.

And

now,

now I'm just really excited. Like today, we got an opportunity to to to introduce it to some new folks here at Bitcoin Park, and it's actually really exciting to share with other Bitcoiners

and not my family who doesn't understand Bitcoin.

And then for them to say, hey, I can give this to my family or, hey, I can share this with somebody else. And it's a way so if imagine this was in our schools or this was in our libraries

or

this was if you had a

a Bitcoin meetup on a regular basis that was just game night.

There's a lot of opportunity where we can help get these ideas out to others without coming across as

read this book or listen to this podcast or whatever it is.

But selfishly, I just like games, and I really enjoy designing them,

And I really like the education side, and that's kind of the

the genesis for,

for the game itself.

And the reason it took 2 years was 1, I I was still learning Bitcoin.

And 2, it was really hard to figure out something that was simple enough to play,

but was good enough that it brought up an idea to I'd actually wanna talk about. Yeah.

So my brother asked me, well, why did the why did the number of of tokens go down by half every once in a while? Okay. Well, that's a whole subject.

Why what's this wall why is a wallet have a why is there a cold wallet and a hot wallet? Like, who cares? Like, that kind of thing. And so there's

so many ways to have

conversations that are just a starting point. Yep. They're like the seeds that you can you plant. So I'm really excited

to to share with others and have other people join in games. I think

especially after COVID, Being able to do things in person, there's just something different. Mhmm. And that's why,

you know, Matt, what you and and Rod are building here at Bitcoin Park. This is why we're willing to drive here is because, like, we get to

connect. How long is the drive? 3 hours. 3 hours. Mhmm. And,

like, I can't describe to you how much like, how valuable that is personally to be able to come and then be with people that you that, like, you can understand. You understand the way they're speaking. You may not have the same background,

but there's a connection there. And,

to me, games are

games are a way of of connecting with people. You don't have to feel like you have to have a conversation going. You can just sit there, make small talk.

If you wanna geek out like a homeschooling dad and build a lecture in it, you can go for it, or you can just just play.

We're just gonna play. And so

that's, that's where it started, and now I'm kind of getting more excited about sharing it as I see people react to it.

I think it's so interesting.

You know, really creating

the process of creating a game. And as you said, building out the effective game mechanics and really playtesting it and and being able to distill it down into the essential components

while also creating a really profound

and correct educational opportunity that seems so challenging to me. And I haven't played it yet, but I'm really, really excited too. And I think, also, as you said, like, having a physical game

that

has mechanics that are exciting enough so that someone who doesn't understand Bitcoin

still can enjoy the game. I just think that's such a a an effective way of in a in a positive sense, like Trojan horsing what Bitcoin Absolutely.

It did. I'll tell you just on that. So, for example,

one of the biggest arguments I got into with my brother doing this was I'm like, you can't move someone's Bitcoin if they don't have the keys. That's it.

And his his point was, well, if you start out before the having, you're going to get a lot of the Bitcoin. So whoever starts out, that's it. The game's over. There's no you have to be able to move stuff,

and that was probably one of the things that we went back and forth the longest on. And then it all what it ended with for those that haven't played, obviously, the the audience built that in that you can try to have a transaction to move something and someone can fight.

If your Bitcoin is on the hot side of the your

your card,

It's vulnerable. You roll the die, and you got a chance that someone did a phishing scam or they they they did a sim swap or some other.

They did something else too, but there's also a risk for the person who's attacking you that

you successfully defend it and you get to to to move it on. So it turned out to be a really great learning point. Yeah.

But there was a lot of back and forth of, like, this well, it's a game. It has to be playable.

So how do you work in there? But I'm, like, yeah, but I can't compromise on How do you work? Comp rise on how it works, and so

that that was one of the ones that I think now is a good thing as I watch people play because there's a lot of conversation about protecting your

your Bitcoin,

And there's a chance if you are behind being a game, you can actually catch up so you can still yeah. I can play with my brother and I don't have to worry about discussing keys with him. I can just play the game, and we're we're good.

So I think one of the things that the game helped me personally

is

seeing the blockchain visually

and seeing how it's constructed, even though it's just a model,

to help me understand the the abstract

idea of the blockchain, because I'm not a techie. And when people talk blockchain, it just goes over my head. I don't know

why

why a string of numbers should mean anything at all

until he put out this game and started explaining things to me. I'm like, oh, that's what you're talking about. It's just sometimes you just need to touch something. Right.

I'm a big believer in that. Mhmm.

That's also why, like, when Scott was, like, trying to explain the rules. I was like, can we just play the can we just play the game? Yeah.

I like learning by fire. That's gonna influence how we do game nights, by the way. There we go. We're not gonna show them videos or anything. We're just gonna go, Okay. We're just gonna jump right into start doing stuff. Yeah. We're gonna do we're gonna do game nights at Bitcoin Park, with Scott and Tali, so people can play the game firsthand.

Be a lot of fun. I mean, Scott was mentioning that right before this podcast, we had a bunch of people at Bitcoin Park playing the game. And, like, Scott, like, kinda looked at me. He's like, do we have enough time for the project? I was like, Scott, go get the game. Let's play the game. Like, we have to play it.

Mhmm. I've I you tried to get me to play, and I was like, no. No. I I wanna run around immediately. I was like, I fucked up. I should I should be playing this game. It looks so much fun. So instead, we roped him into the podcast.

No. But I appreciate that. You're I I mean, it's it was that that experience of playing the first time here was it was great because you guys were the first Bitcoiners that I had to test it with. Interesting.

And I wasn't sure how it was gonna fly. Now you know you had a good game there, but you didn't know if it was actually I did yeah. I didn't know. Held up with it. I didn't know, but I'd already had already kinda

committed to it along the way to to make it. But,

Yeah. But, I mean, it took you you guys picked up the concepts much faster, I think, than people who are not

used to the terminology and other things that are in the in the game.

And so I was yeah. Even though you beat me, which I was not happy about, but I but I was like, wow,

they they got it. Like, they like and I was like, that actually was really,

fulfilling to to do that. I I just it was really it was really kind of a cool moment for me personally to see.

Okay. Bitcoiners

Bitcoiners are okay with it.

Okay. Alright. That's what that was that was, like, the test if if Bitcoin because if you if you looked at it and said,

good luck. Right. I mean, I've been in I mean and one of the Bitcoiners that we had playing with us,

this great dude, Ben, I was hoping he was gonna join us for this conversation, but schedules, and we we moved it up.

He actually he had bought the game from you, and then he brought it back for Christmas and was playing it with his family who were not Bitcoiners

on the opposite side. Instead, it went really well,

and they started to actually understand it. And it makes sense because

if you go back to

why you created this game in the first place is is you were a bit of the crazy Bitcoiner in the family. Right? And you're, like, how can I

show that I'm not at least completely crazy?

Mhmm.

So I'm gonna go build this game

so you guys will learn. I would love to talk to him about how the the feedback from Yeah. We'll talk he'll be here this week, so you'll you'll be able to talk to him about it. Mhmm. He was very excited. He brought it up, not me. Oh, wonderful. Very excited. Yeah.

But, anyway, so,

where do we go with this?

So it's a board game.

I love board games.

Up to 6 players can play,

and a lot of surface level concepts are are are it's it's there's there's an educational element to it.

It's but it's just also just a fun competitive game that works.

So so what are the educational elements?

There's a difficulty adjustment in it, which is which is key.

Having is obviously

massive block reward, block subsidy.

Hot and cold wallets. Yeah. That would be Every player has a hot and cold wallet, and if if your Bitcoin hot wallet, it can be taken from you. Because you you

can choose to invest in mining. Right? And You can also invest yes. I mean, you can exchange

your your Bitcoin and invest in additional rigs

that you get additional nonce cards or additional chances to mine. I wanted something to reward people for making that investment.

You also have the having event. I think we mentioned that. Right

before. And so The having really

it's visceral.

It captures the FOMO of the having very well. God. I wonder As you're playing, you're like, oh my god. There's not enough Bitcoin to go around. Like, I need this Bitcoin now. That's so funny. I wonder how many people are going to play this game and then it's going to fundamentally change their strategy around how they acquire Bitcoin in the real world.

I don't know if it'll be that big. I,

I I feel like I it was to to your point, though, what was interesting is that so we've played this with, like, homeschooling kids that come over, and

there's always a different

dynamic in how people

play it. And when

this first game with with Bitcoiners,

like, it took, like, 1 or 2 hands and then they clicked in.

And then it was, like, I started to hear comments, like, there's a having coming up, so maybe I should do this instead. And they're like, well, maybe,

but so and so is ahead right now. Here's a difficulty adjustment. Maybe I should go to cold stores. There was all these,

like, thought processes that people were vocalizing,

and I I just loved it. I was, like, great, because there's there's elements of chance in there, but you also can make decisions on There's the metagame and the the collusion and all that stuff. Right. So it introduces, I think, Matt, to your question that there's,

when I wrote the the book, there were 12 different

chapters that are just kind of fundamental Bitcoin things like the having or the difficult adjustment.

I have one chapter just on bad actors, which is the the die. And so I broke that out. And then the the remaining 9 chapters are

on each of the there's one type of card in the game that you need to make a transaction called a hash card, and that's what links things on the time frame. So every every block you you

you put down has to be linked to the one before it.

And the

those cards all have a unique expression on them. There's no no 2 are the same. No 2 hashes are the same, And that was my personal compromise for all the other things that I wish I could have brought in and to talk about but couldn't.

I just have a lot of vocabulary on on there. And so last 9 chapters basically take the theme of those. So these are themes about frameworks. These are themes about, you know, other other things,

and you can use it more like a as a reference that if you're new to Bitcoin, all I wanted to do is introduce the the terminology

and the links to information if you're curious about what it is. So Schnoorzinger

I haven't say it. Shore signatures. How do you say it? Snore? Schnoor. Schnoor.

I read that I must have read that thing multiple times on what those are. I still couldn't explain. I'm like, okay. Well, I'm gonna get it down

a couple things on this, and if anybody's curious about it, I'm gonna send them to the links that I found.

The second half of the of the of the book

was just depending on where your curiosity goes,

you could I could find the resources that I had found over the last couple of years to send people. So the first the first half of it is purely kind of what we've been talking about with the mechanics of the game,

teach you something.

And then the the second half is really an introduction to kind of bit Bitcoin 101 terminology.

Yeah. I like the concept in general of,

you have a game, and then you have a book attached to it.

So it's, like, really, like, an educational first mindset

with games. Exactly. Right. This is the this is what I would have wanted, you know, if if not knowing Bitcoin, if somebody give me a game,

and I wanted to play with my kids and understand and we we like Tally and I wanted to teach about it.

This would be the what I would want as a resource to

go and find the things to talk about.

And so it and

sort of like homeschooling homeschooling. When you go back and revisit things, you're teaching your kids, you find that you learn things you didn't you didn't recall from school history or whatever.

By going back and trying to write,

put those things in writing.

I found all the different things that I thought I knew, but didn't really know. And I had to do extra homework. So I actually,

I actually selfishly learned more

by making it than even if no one else ever picks it up. I had to go through it. It's something about writing it down forces you to you have to you actually actually think through what you're

you're you're writing. So,

so I learned a lot, you know, from that. But my goal is now

to share that with that. You can just say, I have a friend of the family

or whoever it is. It could be a school, library, whatever.

Here's the book that goes with the game. It's a pair, and

then now just play. And then if you you're interested in as you become curious about things,

this this is a place that will send you off to to start your your rabbit hole journey.

I immediately imagine, like, going to Thanksgiving with my family and just locking them all in a room and being you can't come out until you understand this, this, and this, and then just yelling through the door. What is a hot wallet?

I'm curious what your experience of the process has been of this game being designed. Like Yeah. Look. So real quick, we have,

Bitcoin

as the username in,

the chat. If you go to free market kids.com, you can buy the game.

You can pay with credit card or Bitcoin. Bitcoin is accepted

if you go through the prompts. You'll you'll be you'll be given an option between paying with credit card or paying with bit they asked why they couldn't pay with Bitcoin.

And the game, by the way, is huddle up. There's a couple different games that are on the website. It's huddle up. Yeah.

So I'm I'm thinking about adding something. I'm new to building websites, but to put something on there on the front to set to space, say, hey, you can buy it with Bitcoin. Here's how you do it

on there. And then the second thing to call out is that the book,

it's written. I'm doing the editing phase now and the formatting

so that I can't ship that out yet. I'll probably a month out, maybe 6 weeks out from being able to to do that. The games I have in stock right now.

Getting back to your question, Pete.

Scott started talking to me about Bitcoin a few years ago, and when he first mentioned it to me, I put up my hand, I said talk to the hand because I don't have time. I don't know what it is, I don't understand it, I've got other things, I'm trying to finish homeschooling the kids last few years of high school, I'm like, I can't talk about this right now, right?

And then he started creating this prototype for the game,

and the and I didn't wanna play it.

I really I was it just it was so the concept was so foreign. I can't

wrap I couldn't wrap my head around

the thought that

a string of numbers and letters can

be money.

And it was through many,

prototypes that his brother was so patiently

working on with him that I eventually started to understand to the point where I wanted to listen to a book about it.

So the book that I listened to,

was called Hard Money You Can't F With,

and by the end of the book, I was sold.

And then his game took on a whole new meaning and I was really trying to understand it. But if he had not

created that game,

I would still be having a really hard time trying to grasp the concept

of the code and things like that. I'm just not a techie. I'm I'm not Right. Yeah. So I have found that to be so helpful because there everybody that I talk to who isn't a big corner,

who knows about Bitcoin, their first response to me is, oh, I need to learn more about Bitcoin.

But in their mind, it requires hours and hours of listening to podcasts and and reading books and reading articles and endless, you know, like a long list of research that they have to do. Like but you can understand the fundamentals if you play this one board game, it takes 30 minutes.

And then the major

part of Bitcoin will be explained, or at least you have enough knowledge to go forward. You have a foundation, and there's

a a framework for thinking about it at least.

Right. And then you have the book attached to it if you wanna go further

further down the rabbit hole. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. That was that's a good question, though, because

she doesn't always want to play the games, and I wanna play games a lot. And there's some tension there,

but it's it's been it's been kind of a journey, and now I've gotten her to the point where she's okay to play a game every once in a while. So we're getting we're getting better. It's like a game therapy. I mean, this game is literally

a love child, really. I mean, he we have poured so much

time and effort into it, and I'll give you an example.

One time,

our youngest was at home. The the 3 were overseas, and Scott was trying to work out some,

just nuances in the instructions, just the instructions.

And they had a debate for an hour.

That was how seriously

our youngest took the instructions.

They debated over the wording over their, I think the first first two sentences. And at the very end of it, both of them were mad

and they didn't play the game. But they So you had you had asked before, like, do your your kids when they could stand up and think for yourselves. Yeah. This was at the time, I think, he was was he 15, 14? I don't even he.

We we argued over it. And then and then I'm like, listen. The first two sentences. He's like, why is this? And I go, well, you know, and then I found a a YouTube video that showed visually

the the the building of a blockchain. I go, this you watch this video. You have to watch this video. I wanna watch this video. It was this

I mean, the I it was it was it was so maddening as a parent to to to go through that. But if you, you know, you fast forward,

he's a more technical one in the family. He actually is 1 when you on the website, there's an explainer video. I know people want to learn by by doing, but he the the one that I had the argument with is the one that did the animation on the, ultimately, on the how to play video. Mhmm. So we've

we've come forward.

Yeah. It's a labor of love.

But I'm I am grateful that now I can have those conversations with the kids

that without the game, I wouldn't have been able to. So Mhmm. Well, you can see it in the final product. There's a lot of love that went into it clearly

and a lot of care and thought.

I mean,

Scott asked me for my feedback, but he also told me

after he asked me for his feedback that he had already made 500 versions of the game. So,

I'm glad you nailed it.

There could be an addition to And I I told Scott that it for his future games, I I expect to be brought into the feedback process

before the I

I will say publicly, I commit to bringing these things ahead of time.

No. So

No. But, yeah, you, Yeah. I can't speak highly enough of this game, and,

the freaks, the audience should you guys should consider going out and buying it. You could pay with Bitcoin,

follow on versions of the game, different versions and stuff. So Scott is happy to he would love feedback. Right? Do I I love feedback. Right. Actually the feedback very well that I gave him.

That's actually in the book. If I can interrupt you real quick, I actually write saying, hey. Listen. If something's not right in this book, I

own

it. But this is sort of like open source learning.

Right. I my ask is tell me where I got it wrong. Right. There'll be V2s of the book and digital versions because I want to get better and I want to give out good information. So

I really, really do welcome advice and feedback. Yeah.

And, if you go to bitcoinpark.co

and

join our meetup group, you will get notified when we do the game nights. There's gonna be multiple game nights at Bitcoin Park that I'm looking forward to.

What else? P is gonna play. P is gonna play. Yes. That's right. We're gonna we're gonna lock him in a room, tell him he can't have until he plays

based on his own strategy with his family that he disclosed. I tell you what's out when you play against Pat. Just warn you. He's I'm excited.

And I can't believe he beat you at your own game, which is a measure in my mind. Never got I've never gotten to play a founder at his own game too. That was

so, yeah, I was I was actually when we thought about doing the podcast, I was like, how long before this comes up?

And it was instant. Very proud of it. Yeah. I'm more proud of the fact that I caught. So, like,

the way it works is there's a difficulty adjustment, and

and you draw cards and, like, the number on your cards, whether or not you collect Bitcoin or not, is based on

if if the numbers add up to under the difficulty adjustment. It's a really cool mechanism.

And,

Scott put his cards on the table and then went to grab some Bitcoin, and I was like I was like, Scott, that that doesn't add up to below the he literally tried to grab some Bitcoin from the board. Tried to pull 1 pair on you. I caught him. I caught him, so don't just verify. Don't just verify.

That is better than beating him. That is so much better that I that I was actually there was proof in the pudding that I was paying attention. I was completely competitive, and I was not gonna let him get away with it. I also, like, I just think it's such a ringing endorsement. I mean, people come up to you and wanna talk to you about Bitcoin and the products they're making all the time. So for this to be the game that you're like, this is the best one, I mean, you must have played. It's the best one so far. Oh, yeah. It's a challenge to the audience and to Scott to build even better one because I build more. You should make a shitcoin version. It's like, this is why everything's broken. They're they're you you joke about that, but I actually had some ideas. So you and I should talk. Yeah. I mean, I think it could I think it could be interesting. Like, here's why you never wanna fuck with any of those content. FTX, the game. No. No. I mean, like, I don't know. I think we're like a Just everyone gets rug pull. There's no winning the game. You just That's what I mean. Or, like, like, a modification that you could buy where, like, it it, like, adds on to the existing game, and then the only answer is, like, SBS steals steals everything over.

And then he goes live in a mansion in California. Yeah.

This has been this has been fantastic. I appreciate I appreciate you all, and,

this has been a really great conversation.

Before

before we wrap up here, I like to finish with final thoughts.

Final thoughts, Scott. Hit us.

The thing that's on my mind is just is just I go back to the the gratitude. I it's really difficult to put into words,

like, how much I think you what you guys are building here. Like, I don't

I really I do I actually struggle with trying to to express that. And,

when I tell others saying, you know, we're we I told you about the Lexington meetup and other things. I'm like, you guys have to get to Bitcoin Park. You have to get there. And I'm trying to get

other friends that live in, faraway places to to join as well. Mhmm.

I'm just I just it's it's really amazing. And if anybody hasn't been, like, it's

until you experience it, I don't think you get it. And

for you guys, I think

you have you have access to a lot of other people who already get it.

When you're when you're, you know, in your on your own in the with your family or your friends, you're like on an on an island. Mhmm. And

there's just something about being able to be around people who who, who kind of get it as well. And so I just that is and my final thought is just amazing gratitude for what you guys are are building here. So Thanks, Scott. The feeling is mutual. This is a really special place. Really special.

There's such a wonderful vibe here and

everybody here is here to learn and share.

And that's really, really amazing.

I wanted to

to just tell your audience if the anybody's thinking about homeschooling,

don't be afraid. There are so many resources out there.

And if any of you have questions,

atfreemarketkids.com,

there's a contact us button on the bottom. Shoot me an email. I am so happy to answer any questions that anybody has about homeschooling.

That's my part. That's my specialty.

So yeah. Self custody of your education. Awesome. Yep.

Well, thank you both. And I guess if

if you're a web dev out there listening too, like, at that contact form, it sounds like Scott could use some help. Okay.

I've proved how little technical skills You got Bitcoin support up there. We explained we explained to Scott before the show started how to click retweet on the livestream, so,

we're getting there.

I wanna thank you both. Thank you for coming. I thank you for joining.

Thank you, Mitch. Thank you for being you, and it's just been a pleasure to meet you guys and get to know you guys, and and I look forward to,

this relationship blossoming over the over the future. I we have to give we have to give p final thoughts. P final thoughts. Oh, I just,

we talk a lot about taking radical personal responsibility. You just said huddle you know, I think you said huddle your education. I think that it's really awesome to have a conversation with people who have taken that idea. We talk a lot about it a lot around finance, and I love the idea of extending that to multiple areas of your life. And I can't think of a more important one than how you choose to educate your children. So

I would love to see even more people taking radical

personal responsibility for major aspects of their life. Mhmm.

Yeah. Awesome.

Well, thank you, Freaks, for joining us. Thank you. Huge shout out to the Freaks who joined us short notice in the live chat, rdbtc,

Bitcoin.

Who else joined us?

There was few, but there was dozens of us. It was great. Max Trotter, Jay Pleb. Thank you guys for joining us. Huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show.

We don't have ads,

so our sponsors can't rug you by design because you are the sponsors. So thank you for supporting the show with your stats, with your Bitcoin. All the links are at sil dispatch.com,

available on all podcast apps. Once again, this is gonna be a very big week for dispatch.

Got some great conversations lined up, and also have some conversations that will probably be on dispatch

that I'm not expecting yet. So I'm I'm excited for that.

If any of you are in the Nashville area, consider coming down to Bitcoin Park this week.

Or even if you're 3 to 5 hours away, just jump in the car, drive down.

More the merrier. We'd love to meet you. We'd love to see you. That's fantastic.

Yeah. Appreciate you freaks. Stay on Stacks Sats. Cheers. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you.