FREEDOM MONEY: JANINE ROEM

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Created: 5/20/2024 2:02:04 PM
Duration: 3680.177
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Janine Rome is a cyberpunk journalist and Bitcoin privacy educator. She publishes a newsletter titled This Month in Bitcoin Privacy, writing about privacy related technology developments,

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events, and conversations in Bitcoin, as well as the tools and strategies that can be used to protect our right to informational self determination.

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Well, Janine, thank you for for joining us.

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I'm very excited for, this conversation.

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So,

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to get started,

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where

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wait, when you think about when you think about freedom,

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what is

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what does freedom mean to you?

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Freedom

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mean, so I have there there's a song that I like that I've actually used the lyrics. I plan to use the lyrics eventually for podcasts.

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It's by Kings of Convenience,

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and they say,

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I can't remember what they say.

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Freedom

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freedom is no greater than its owner, no view is wider than the eye, and I really like that

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lyric.

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A lot a lot of I think it's in from an album that's called, declaration of dependence,

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and it's kind of about how,

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I mean, I think what the album is about is that,

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I think it's all American singers and,

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we we like to think that we're independent, but we actually have a lot of dependencies on things that,

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can often take away our freedom.

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One of those, of course, I think, is the monetary system. Like,

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I mean,

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for the most part, I've lived in countries where there's a relatively high amount of economic freedom,

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especially when it comes to,

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any anything to do with religion or reading texts,

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or more recently, sexuality, like, that's relatively free, and there's a lot of places in the world where that isn't the case.

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And I think money is very important

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for that because

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if you're not able to

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economically support yourself, if you're not able to associate with others in terms of forming businesses,

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or choosing what products to buy or services to use,

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then effectively it becomes very hard to be yourself or express yourself.

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And so if you have a monetary system where

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your choices affect

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whether you are even able to use money at all,

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or if you're restricted to only using it for certain things, even if they cause no harm whatsoever to anyone else,

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then I think your freedom in so many other ways is restricted. Like, you your freedom of speech is impacted, your freedom of association is impacted.

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All of those things,

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to some level come back to money.

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We've seen that with, you know, cancel culture recently, which,

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I think some of it can be legitimate, when it's challenging people of power who have not been held to account. Like, some of it is a

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form of boycotting

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that's basically being applied to individuals.

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But I think in a lot of cases, especially when the

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the allegations aren't based on solid evidence,

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Essentially, what people are doing is,

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mass dis a disassociation,

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and, you know, we can say,

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well, they all have the freedom to do that, and of course, I agree if they don't want to give money to someone, that's fine. But,

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if that happens on such a scale where a person is basically excluded from the economy,

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maybe even they get their bank account shut down,

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depending on what the allegation is,

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then, effectively, they can't live. And I've heard from people who have experienced this personally,

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and a lot of them say, I think there was even a book by John Rawlinson,

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where he interviewed someone and they basically said,

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who had experienced this kind of

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backlash, and he said,

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basically these people just want me to disappear and go away, they want me to die without actually saying that.

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And he he also said something interesting where it's like, they want to use me as a cultural reference

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for, like, what you shouldn't do.

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So freedom to me is that,

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while you should obviously be able to express

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your dislike for people who you think have done,

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harm to others,

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you should also have ways to protect yourself against that being used,

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for example, political censorship, because that is also happening. And I think people need to be more careful,

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you know, we've I think there's a lot of responsibility in having freedom as well.

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For example, recently with the Wasabi

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blacklisting, which was very unfortunate,

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someone who is a contributor made the argument

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that,

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Wasabi is within the right to do this, Right. Because they own the server, he was making a property rights argument. And I don't I don't disagree with that. I don't think anyone was saying, like, that Wasabi doesn't have the right

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to do what they did. They own the server.

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They're offering the service. They can choose not to or to change it.

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And they do have the right, but that doesn't mean just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean that other people

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won't,

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be impacted by it, won't dislike it,

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and they have to take that into account.

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So freedom is, I think, when you're living in a complex society, it's really

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a constant negotiation,

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where you should be able to express yourself

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and get the things that you need and want,

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but you also have to deal with everyone else around you who is trying to do the same thing, and sometimes that conflicts.

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So it's a constant negotiation.

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It's very much affected by your economic power,

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and it's affected by

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the political situation that you find yourself in, and how much you

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are contributing

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to that system.

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That makes a lot of sense to me. I you know, you are a independent

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journalist focused on privacy and freedom. I have a lot of respect for your work. It's an honor to call you a friend and to have you here speaking with me.

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When

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you you hit an interesting point there where

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you mentioned that we have the benefit of living in

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in relatively free countries,

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and get to enjoy

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a good amount of freedom.

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When you talk to people

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and you're, you know, in your writing how do you, how do you frame to them? How do you make it make them understand

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or help them understand,

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the importance of freedom and how, you know, people in other countries

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how how they're dealing with it, right? Like how do you

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get people to relate to it? Because that's something I've noticed that is very very difficult to do, most people just have blinders on.

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Yeah. I mean, in my experience I find it

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I find it harder

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to con to talk to people or convince them of the value of freedom

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when they already live with it in abundance. Right. And they don't appreciate it necessarily.

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I don't really have to convince people who are living in places where they don't have it, that they need it because they already want

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it. Even if they don't consciously

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they're not consciously thinking about it, I think

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every day they're aware of,

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to some degree what what else might be out there that they don't have access to,

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and that they want to experience it, but for various reasons they can't, like,

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I mean, also one of the benefits of living in a country that has a lot of freedom is that you not only have freedom in that place, you have privileges that you can,

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take to other places, you can have a lot, you can, a lot of these countries have visa fee travel or very limited visa restrictions

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to go to other parts of the world where

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conversely, people in those countries that they visit can't visit their country or it's very hard to do.

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So it's also it's very much tied, like, your your freedom is not only

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within the area that you are that has a relatively high amount of freedom, it's also

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the the political privilege that you carry with you, with your, you know, national identity documents.

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So, I mean, there's a massive disconnect there. Right? There there there is a group of people,

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who the importance of freedom is very obvious to them, and those are those are people that generally live in less free countries.

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And then there's a group of people that

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they don't even really think about it. And is is that disconnect

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ever gonna be solved? Is that a solvable disconnect? Is or is that just, you know, something that we just have to live with when when we work in this space?

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I definitely think there's a disconnect,

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I've noticed, especially when it comes to money, like,

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I've been to so many places where

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you go in and they just assume

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you have,

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you have bank cards. Right.

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I actually went to a cafe once, I think it was in the UK,

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and I walked in and I tried to get something with cash because I'm very much a cash based,

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person. I pretty much do all of my transactions in cash,

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unless I have no other option.

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And I went to this cafe and I wanted to purchase something and he said, nope. We only take cards.

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I said, because at the time I actually didn't have a bank card that would work in the UK,

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and I said that, and he said, are you a refugee?

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And on one hand I found that kind of insulting because

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I thought, well, if I am, you're saying that you wouldn't take my money,

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you, like, I I'm at a, you know, disadvantaged position, and you wouldn't take my money, but then on the other hand, I also thought, well,

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do I have to be one for you to respect

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my choice,

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or maybe it's not even my choice? I mean, for me,

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it's at the time, in that instance, it wasn't a choice. I only had cash, but usually I do have a choice between cash or bank cards,

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and I always choose cash,

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because I prefer that, but a lot of people use cash because that is their only choice. They get paid in cash for whatever reason, they can't get a bank account or it's very expensive to use,

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So

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he not only wasn't he or him or his business wasn't respecting my choice, but,

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Yeah. I found that interesting. And,

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yeah, I think there's a lot of disconnect in the financial sector where they, and especially in countries where it's becoming more and more the case that they assume that you already have these things,

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that they

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expect that that will always be the case, and that will be good, and that will never be used against us.

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And that's part of why,

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we have this CBDC panel coming up that,

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I assume part of what we're going to say is that,

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well, we, we already see what's happening with

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the financial system as it is and the restrictions they're putting on it. Why would we give them even more power

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to restrict us, especially when

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they basically give lip service to privacy, but they don't they haven't demonstrated that they actually care about it in any way. Like, what they're doing

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what they're doing trying to get rid of cash, what they're doing with increasing,

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AML,

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legislation, which is really clamping down on,

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and increasing the need for

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identification at every level. They're demonstrating that they don't want to give more privacy or even keep the same level of privacy that we have now,

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and I think they don't understand how dangerous that is.

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The biggest disconnect

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that I've learned about recently is, like, the extent to which a lot of this

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anti money laundering policy

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has literally no effect whatsoever

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on money laundering around the world. There's a ton of papers now that shows that

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the amount that the amount of, like, criminal proceeds that they're capturing is, like, 1% or less.

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And there was even a paper, I think, by the United Nations.

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I think it was the Office of Drugs and Crime. They published it way back in 2011.

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And they they had an excellent line in there where they were like, our our money launderer is so much smarter than drug dealers, the because they made this point that, like, we're capturing a lot more of the drugs around the world than we are this laundered money.

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Are the money launderers so much smarter than drug dealers, or there is there something wrong with this system?

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And it's unfortunate because not only is it super ineffective, but it's keeping a lot of people out of the financial system because they're putting up these barriers.

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Do you think that does that even matter, the logic that it doesn't doesn't work to stop criminals? Do do you think those those laws are actually there to stop criminals, or are they there to surveil the broader population? Is it just an excuse with the criminal side? Yeah, I mean, I, I mean I don't know, I haven't met too many people,

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personally in the field to say whether in their heart of hearts, they actually think it's effective.

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But no. I I I think to some degree, they must know that it doesn't work,

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and, you know, whether whether it's effective or not, maybe it would be super effective, and I would still think that they were there were costs to it, which was financial exclusion,

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but given that it's definitely not working, and then we also have the financial exclusion, it's a super it's a really bad deal. But I feel like if you talk to a lot of them, they would say, okay. So let's we should collect even more information. We should put up even more barriers.

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Right? Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't know how they could collect even I mean, they they could, but at that point,

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I mean, there's something to be said for, like,

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there's a reason that we don't do this with cash.

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There was another paper that I read that I think no. It's the same.

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It was actually a paper, financials it was called Financial Surveillance,

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Who Cares? And it was about,

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essentially,

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like, the kind of the the adverse reaction to anti money laundering

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policy, and, like, where is it coming from, what are the arguments, It was kind of just a summary of that. So like, with with cash,

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we were you were talking earlier about you went into a store, they didn't accept cash. Right? And I so I see,

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I see in America and I see among my peers

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a push away from cash. Both from on the business side,

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but also just like on the user side. A lot of people choose convenience of they like their payment apps, they like their credit cards.

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A lot of people I went to school with choose not to use cash. They prefer not to use cash.

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Do you think

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as a global society cash is dying? Is cash

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is cash gonna be short lived in this world? And a world without cash, what does that world look like to you?

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I definitely think cash is dying in certain parts of the world. I I've

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deliberately chosen to live in places where I think still 50% or more of the transactions are made in cash,

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and I think

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there are many parts of the world where it will take much much longer, if it happens at all, to transition of cash just because

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you have a large older generation who doesn't

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who isn't up to switching.

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You also just have a lot of distrust in

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the the government, the system in general that they don't even want to use it because they're suspicious of it. I think that was happening to a degree

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in El Salvador, even with bitcoin, like, because they went through dollarization before that

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and didn't

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The results of that for a lot of people weren't that great, and they kind of suspected that Bitcoin would have a similar effect. So there's a lot of resistance initially,

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especially given that the government was involved in promoting bitcoin. Right.

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Yeah. I think I think a big part of the reason that people are a lot of people are sort of voluntarily

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transition transitioning away from cash on their own is because,

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the the

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the people that build

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the digital financial system, they try very hard to make sure that the costs of that are hidden from you.

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For example, most people aren't aware of the

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huge amount of data that is collected about them just so that they can use a credit card. Right. They're not aware of

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how the credit system works and how it can be very toxic.

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And

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I think if people were more aware of those costs,

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if it was more clear to them, then they might change their mind.

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That's actually been a case with privacy for people who don't. Right. They're not they don't value privacy or they're not sure what they should do about it. Once you show them the cost of not doing something,

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then they,

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there's kind of a paradox where peep a lot of people say they care about privacy, but in practice they don't do that much about it.

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But once you,

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that was

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initially that was assumed like,

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it was assumed that the reason for that is because people

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were basically lying about how much they valued privacy. Right. But the reality was that they just didn't actually understand

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how the systems they were using worked. Like, they thought they were using them properly. They thought they did care somewhat about their privacy, and they were doing it in the right way. And then once someone showed them,

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well, no, this is what you're doing, this is how it's harming you, here's a better way to do it, then they actually did it. So it was actually just a it was a question of education. It's an education short full. Yeah. A lot of a lot of this is just education. Like, there's a paper, I think, in 2017

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that I wrote about

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where,

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it was like misconceptions people had about privacy

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and,

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like, about things like email and SMS texting.

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And

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even in

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2017 or 2016, whenever they did the survey, most people were still under the impression that SMS texts were secret,

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and that email was very secure and all of this. And,

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the reason that they gave actually for that was because

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banks use it, banks use it to send notifications, and if my bank is communicating with me in this medium,

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it must be secure because my bank wouldn't use an insecure medium.

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So it's

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part of it is also, like, they assume

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that they can trust these institutions to know what they should be using and they kind of

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shift that burden,

253
00:18:31.815 --> 00:18:34.315
onto them and then it turns out to be very wrong.

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Would you say that the

255
00:18:36.970 --> 00:18:40.990
but I and at least in my experience, like what I've noticed is a lot of people

256
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kind of they're kind of aware that they that that they're at risk, that they have these concerns but it's not until they actually get burned that they start to try and improve their setup.

257
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Would you agree with that? Like people touching the stove is probably the the number one way they start to improve

258
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their their current situation,

259
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privacy wise? I agree. I agree that, that is often number one way that, like, that's where the major shift usually happens.

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I don't think that that's how it should. I I like, part of what I do with my education, like, I made a privacy course,

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and the recommendation I had was that people should be proactive about this because

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it's,

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part of the problem with

264
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relying on that, on this, like, sudden change as a result of catastrophe.

265
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In a way, it's

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it's very hard to then

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do, like, a speed run of the education in a way where you're doing it properly.

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Whereas if you're proactive about it and you prepare before a catastrophe happens, then you not only have more time to absorb the information,

269
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you implement everything correctly, and you're not under a huge amount of stress.

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Right.

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So I definitely encourage people, like,

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you know,

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yes, you haven't had a data breach yet, you haven't had an identity theft yet,

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you haven't had money stolen from you yet,

275
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but here's the ways in which it could happen based on what you're currently doing.

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And you do not want to start fixing

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these holes.

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Once the hole gets so big that, you know, you you have no choice

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but to do it. The time to fix the ship isn't when it's sinking. Yeah.

280
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Like, it was You'll probably panic and sink. Yeah. Like, you might survive, but, it's it's not fun to be learning under pressure

281
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that way.

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So I encourage people to be proactive

283
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even though that's also difficult because

284
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it takes time.

285
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You're not fully aware of the incentives

286
00:20:38.145 --> 00:20:41.285
at the or the, like, the reasons to do it at the beginning.

287
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But I think it's

288
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I think it's healthier and easier

289
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to start

290
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now and do it slowly than

291
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to have to rapidly go through it later.

292
00:20:53.565 --> 00:20:55.425
Let's pull it back a little bit. So

293
00:20:56.685 --> 00:20:58.065
when when did you start,

294
00:20:59.325 --> 00:21:09.620
when did you decide you wanted to be an independent journalist focused on privacy and what was the reason for that? What was the triggering moment where you realized, you know, privacy is is this,

295
00:21:10.805 --> 00:21:14.185
you know, insanely important topic in today's age?

296
00:21:15.605 --> 00:21:21.340
I mean, that's quite a long story. I mean, I I would say initially as when I was a lot younger,

297
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I was almost a technophobe. I Really? Because I actually I I enjoy the outdoors. I very much like,

298
00:21:29.485 --> 00:21:30.785
low tech stuff,

299
00:21:31.325 --> 00:21:34.705
for as long as I can remember. And so when it came to things like,

300
00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:41.460
anything to do with the Internet when I was younger, I was actually one of the people who was like, I'm gonna use this as minimally

301
00:21:42.159 --> 00:21:42.399
as

302
00:21:43.120 --> 00:21:44.179
the minimal amount,

303
00:21:45.375 --> 00:21:47.315
that I need to, because I

304
00:21:47.855 --> 00:21:55.340
I was part of a generation that I'm constantly getting talked, given propaganda about how there's all these online predators

305
00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:57.020
Right. To come after you.

306
00:21:57.560 --> 00:22:04.825
You can get infected with viruses, and malware, and all of this. And when I was younger, it was, like, an onslaught of, like, information about threats.

307
00:22:05.845 --> 00:22:16.909
And I think for most of my life, I've been very sensitive to that. If I get in for information about something that could possibly harm me, then I kind of try to avoid it. And so for a long time, I actually

308
00:22:17.210 --> 00:22:20.830
had very little interest in, like, high anything high-tech.

309
00:22:22.995 --> 00:22:30.215
And so I and but that was because I cared about privacy. Like, I didn't I didn't want I wanted to avoid harm. That was it was harm reduction.

310
00:22:31.110 --> 00:22:33.850
But then it got to a point, especially with,

311
00:22:36.870 --> 00:22:37.690
around 2013,

312
00:22:38.514 --> 00:22:40.695
the uprisings and everything and WikiLeaks

313
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and

314
00:22:42.195 --> 00:22:43.335
how they were using

315
00:22:43.794 --> 00:22:44.534
all this,

316
00:22:45.315 --> 00:22:49.550
wasn't super new at the time, but, like, using technology in new ways to

317
00:22:50.170 --> 00:22:55.070
do journalism, and it was super effective for, like, the number of people that were involved.

318
00:22:55.725 --> 00:22:57.905
The number of publications they did was

319
00:22:58.365 --> 00:22:59.745
massive compared to

320
00:23:00.205 --> 00:23:02.785
what most journalists produce year on year.

321
00:23:03.885 --> 00:23:06.309
So I saw that, and I

322
00:23:06.610 --> 00:23:08.070
basically switched to

323
00:23:08.610 --> 00:23:10.150
okay. I also

324
00:23:10.690 --> 00:23:13.565
want to do this kind of work. I'll have to use this technology.

325
00:23:14.025 --> 00:23:17.245
And instead of just avoiding it and being a bit of a technophobe,

326
00:23:17.945 --> 00:23:23.040
I would embrace it, but also figure out how it worked so that I could still protect myself

327
00:23:23.500 --> 00:23:25.760
from threats that I perceived.

328
00:23:27.340 --> 00:23:30.815
But I've always been I think I've always been a private person.

329
00:23:31.914 --> 00:23:34.735
Part of that is because I didn't grow up in a city.

330
00:23:35.434 --> 00:23:40.010
So just naturally, you know, I would look out my window and I wouldn't see neighbors,

331
00:23:42.150 --> 00:23:48.885
because there would be trees, like, a lot a lot of obscurity. And so just in my my surrounding environment,

332
00:23:49.265 --> 00:23:54.310
I had a lot of privacy, and I think people who grow up in the city, because they're

333
00:23:55.170 --> 00:24:01.995
not used to that, they just kind of get used to the opposite. They're constantly surrounded by people. They can hear their neighbors. They can see their neighbors,

334
00:24:04.054 --> 00:24:06.075
and everybody's in a confined space.

335
00:24:07.710 --> 00:24:11.890
Their expectation for privacy is lower, and I think that that extends to,

336
00:24:12.990 --> 00:24:15.890
a lot of times the Internet as well and social media.

337
00:24:16.885 --> 00:24:18.825
And I was the opposite. I was very,

338
00:24:21.125 --> 00:24:27.510
I restricted that and I still am today, but I've come to a bit of a better balance in terms of using

339
00:24:28.850 --> 00:24:30.230
the technology to,

340
00:24:30.929 --> 00:24:35.345
pursue my goals rather than avoiding it. What would you say to people who

341
00:24:36.284 --> 00:24:41.024
do not think privacy is something they should consider? Like why, what would you say to people that don't

342
00:24:41.404 --> 00:24:43.024
don't think privacy is important?

343
00:24:46.590 --> 00:24:53.015
I I would first point out the ways in which I actually think they do care about privacy, they just maybe

344
00:24:53.315 --> 00:24:54.855
don't realize that they do,

345
00:24:55.395 --> 00:24:59.715
and that if those things went away that they would probably hate it.

346
00:25:00.195 --> 00:25:01.335
Like, most people

347
00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:09.760
are okay with having curtains on their window and closing them at night, so that, you know, especially in a city where you can often see through,

348
00:25:11.254 --> 00:25:16.794
your neighbors windows, people are okay with that, like, there's this, an assumed, I mean, we wear clothes that is

349
00:25:17.390 --> 00:25:21.090
a reflection of us wanting to have some privacy with our body.

350
00:25:22.029 --> 00:25:29.865
And there's a lot of variation in that, but most people go around wearing clothes, and that's, you know, that's an example of privacy of the body

351
00:25:30.725 --> 00:25:31.225
and,

352
00:25:31.605 --> 00:25:33.465
you know, now with facial recognition,

353
00:25:34.485 --> 00:25:40.490
we have to deal with not only just people that are actually in our vicinity seeing us, we have to deal with people

354
00:25:40.870 --> 00:25:42.490
in a data center far away,

355
00:25:43.510 --> 00:25:47.485
not only seeing us in the moment, but having a record of that all the time.

356
00:25:47.785 --> 00:25:49.085
And I don't think people

357
00:25:49.465 --> 00:25:53.920
have fully understood the implications of that, of having a record of

358
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.540
every place you go at all times.

359
00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:59.780
I think part of that is because,

360
00:26:00.800 --> 00:26:02.660
example in this country, it's,

361
00:26:04.515 --> 00:26:05.555
there's a lot of,

362
00:26:06.115 --> 00:26:06.595
there's,

363
00:26:06.995 --> 00:26:11.095
not really a lot of political repression and so people aren't worried about

364
00:26:11.840 --> 00:26:18.260
the the state having that surveillance on them. I mean, there's not too much CCTV here, but there are some cameras,

365
00:26:20.685 --> 00:26:21.185
And,

366
00:26:23.005 --> 00:26:26.945
yeah, it's I think I was actually saying this to someone last night that

367
00:26:27.260 --> 00:26:28.240
the problem

368
00:26:30.060 --> 00:26:31.600
with, countries like Norway

369
00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:32.640
and

370
00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:35.520
a lot of other countries when they explore new technology,

371
00:26:37.105 --> 00:26:38.865
they they celebrate it. Right.

372
00:26:39.265 --> 00:26:43.605
And part of the reason they celebrate it is because they're not necessarily worried

373
00:26:43.905 --> 00:26:44.405
that

374
00:26:44.800 --> 00:26:48.100
anyone in their environment is going to abuse that technology to harm them.

375
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.355
Whereas if you go to other places in the world where that's not the case,

376
00:26:52.835 --> 00:26:55.095
that new technology can be used to,

377
00:26:56.275 --> 00:26:56.995
surveil and,

378
00:26:57.395 --> 00:26:58.294
repress people.

379
00:26:59.315 --> 00:27:02.360
So if you don't have the restraint in your,

380
00:27:03.780 --> 00:27:04.420
in your,

381
00:27:04.820 --> 00:27:05.800
political environment

382
00:27:06.100 --> 00:27:08.120
where those abuses can't happen,

383
00:27:10.945 --> 00:27:16.645
then then you become much more aware of how available privacy is.

384
00:27:17.265 --> 00:27:18.965
Clearly, like, this is not

385
00:27:19.340 --> 00:27:22.160
this is not the type of clothes that you wear on a daily basis.

386
00:27:23.340 --> 00:27:30.845
Most people I I imagine a lot of people who are watching this use social media. They post pictures of themselves, their family, their friends all the time.

387
00:27:31.305 --> 00:27:35.085
Many different sites, many different services, you know, maybe they have a

388
00:27:35.500 --> 00:27:42.800
a ring doorbell camera that sends video of them to Amazon servers every time they enter their house or their office.

389
00:27:45.645 --> 00:27:47.745
To why why do you value

390
00:27:49.485 --> 00:27:55.429
just not disclosing your face? Why do you keep your face private? What would you say to those people of, you know, to explain

391
00:27:55.730 --> 00:27:57.510
what your stance is in that regard?

392
00:27:59.730 --> 00:28:00.370
The reason

393
00:28:01.875 --> 00:28:08.375
I mean, I I mean, part of it is just I was I was never really a fan of taking pictures of myself in general.

394
00:28:10.490 --> 00:28:14.510
But the reason, especially in the last couple of years where I've tried very hard,

395
00:28:15.050 --> 00:28:17.630
it's kind of a paradox where I'm a privacy

396
00:28:18.465 --> 00:28:22.725
advocate, but I also am trying to be a public speaker, and I did not I did not anticipate

397
00:28:23.265 --> 00:28:31.680
many years ago that I was gonna be a public speaker. So it's definitely a tricky thing to do where you're in the public eye and trying to share ideas, but

398
00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:34.400
there's this expectation that you also

399
00:28:34.835 --> 00:28:35.815
share your identity,

400
00:28:36.595 --> 00:28:39.895
and in a in a physical way, not just in your ideas.

401
00:28:41.955 --> 00:28:42.455
And

402
00:28:43.970 --> 00:28:44.950
I I think

403
00:28:45.650 --> 00:28:47.990
it definitely conflicts, I think, with,

404
00:28:49.330 --> 00:28:52.870
my generation in particular, but people in general is that a lot of people,

405
00:28:53.995 --> 00:29:04.580
they not only like doing that, but they have they have this desire to be famous. Like, they would they would like to wake up one day and see their name or their face in a paper and being celebrated.

406
00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:06.980
And that's not necessarily a bad thing,

407
00:29:07.520 --> 00:29:08.020
to

408
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:09.700
to want

409
00:29:10.155 --> 00:29:12.495
acceptance and praise for,

410
00:29:13.275 --> 00:29:14.175
who you are.

411
00:29:14.795 --> 00:29:15.295
But,

412
00:29:15.995 --> 00:29:16.895
at some level,

413
00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:21.850
that can also be really detrimental because if you ask a lot of famous people,

414
00:29:22.470 --> 00:29:28.805
you know, if if they could go back and change something what would they do? A lot of them say they would try to have more privacy.

415
00:29:29.585 --> 00:29:32.005
That's the thing that they actually want the most because oftentimes

416
00:29:32.305 --> 00:29:34.370
their home address is known by everyone.

417
00:29:34.990 --> 00:29:36.210
If they go to a restaurant,

418
00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:37.730
they get photographed.

419
00:29:38.350 --> 00:29:39.730
If they get into a relationship,

420
00:29:40.110 --> 00:29:42.050
everybody knows within a couple minutes.

421
00:29:44.215 --> 00:29:46.795
And they just constantly feel on edge because

422
00:29:47.255 --> 00:29:51.830
on one hand you get you have the benefit of this praise and this,

423
00:29:53.090 --> 00:29:53.590
admiration,

424
00:29:54.370 --> 00:29:57.830
but on the reverse, it can also turn into revulsion

425
00:29:58.130 --> 00:29:58.870
and anger,

426
00:29:59.865 --> 00:30:02.845
and judgment, and they definitely don't want that. And

427
00:30:03.225 --> 00:30:05.645
it often limits who they can become.

428
00:30:06.105 --> 00:30:07.565
And so for me personally,

429
00:30:08.630 --> 00:30:10.730
I like to be able

430
00:30:11.270 --> 00:30:13.770
to walk down the street anywhere and not be recognized.

431
00:30:14.230 --> 00:30:18.905
Unfortunately, I do get recognized for my voice, but I solve that by just not talking.

432
00:30:20.965 --> 00:30:28.590
I like to be able to just walk down the street and nobody knows me, and the only way that people will know me is if they already know me,

433
00:30:29.370 --> 00:30:32.110
or if I want them to get to know me. Otherwise,

434
00:30:34.010 --> 00:30:36.510
like, it it it gives me that choice,

435
00:30:36.889 --> 00:30:37.389
and

436
00:30:38.205 --> 00:30:39.185
I also don't

437
00:30:39.565 --> 00:30:43.905
given that I am a public speaker, I also don't want to be in a position where

438
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.340
I don't I don't know if I will ever be famous

439
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:53.540
famous, but I never wanna be in a position where I feel like I have to pigeonhole myself

440
00:30:54.195 --> 00:30:54.695
because

441
00:30:55.715 --> 00:30:56.855
I'm worried about,

442
00:30:57.875 --> 00:31:01.015
people getting angry at me and coming after me for

443
00:31:01.409 --> 00:31:05.510
the opinions that I have. Like, I wanna be able to speak as freely as possible.

444
00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:13.025
And that's also why I want to use Bitcoin because I want to also be able to spend my money as freely as possible and not be limited by

445
00:31:13.405 --> 00:31:15.825
the policies that any given bank has

446
00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:23.320
or a payment processor or what have you. So they're kind of related, but, yeah, I just I want to keep that freedom.

447
00:31:24.565 --> 00:31:25.225
And so

448
00:31:25.765 --> 00:31:26.265
I

449
00:31:26.645 --> 00:31:28.265
hide my face because,

450
00:31:29.684 --> 00:31:36.400
I feel like that actually gives me more freedom. Like, to be clear, you're not wearing that mask to protect from disease.

451
00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:37.440
No.

452
00:31:38.860 --> 00:31:39.520
I mean,

453
00:31:40.235 --> 00:31:40.735
I

454
00:31:41.115 --> 00:31:45.215
I'm Yeah. I'm not worried about disease because I'm a quite I'm quite a healthy person.

455
00:31:45.755 --> 00:31:48.575
I did not get COVID once this entire pandemic.

456
00:31:49.430 --> 00:31:53.110
So no, I'm not worried about disease. So, I mean, it is very convenient though.

457
00:31:53.910 --> 00:31:54.890
I don't know how

458
00:31:55.190 --> 00:31:57.530
I I am tempted to actually keep wearing masks,

459
00:31:58.235 --> 00:32:01.855
just because it's anti sort of anti facial recognition, but,

460
00:32:02.475 --> 00:32:02.975
unfortunately,

461
00:32:03.275 --> 00:32:08.620
I think a lot of the systems have gotten smarter where they're now If you're wearing a mask, they're looking at,

462
00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:16.205
like your eyebrows or your forehead. The nose is shaking. Yeah. So the mask isn't, which is why I have 2.

463
00:32:16.825 --> 00:32:18.205
I mean that was an interesting

464
00:32:20.025 --> 00:32:25.440
that was an interesting situation with the COVID response just in general because in a lot of places wearing masks was

465
00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:28.399
either illegal or like borderline criminalized.

466
00:32:28.779 --> 00:32:33.065
And I know in New York like there's a law in the books that like 2 people can't be together,

467
00:32:33.605 --> 00:32:39.190
wearing a mask at the same time. Yeah, very, very interesting flip where suddenly it became a crime to

468
00:32:40.070 --> 00:32:42.330
not, not, not cover your face. But personally,

469
00:32:43.669 --> 00:32:49.195
you know, I've, as, as a public privacy advocate myself I've obviously wrestled with the same,

470
00:32:51.335 --> 00:32:53.595
trade offs that that you were just discussing.

471
00:32:55.580 --> 00:32:57.200
I've often been called a hypocrite,

472
00:32:58.300 --> 00:33:02.080
for for being a public privacy advocate, as if

473
00:33:02.655 --> 00:33:03.315
you can't

474
00:33:03.855 --> 00:33:06.995
be both public and pro privacy at the same time.

475
00:33:08.255 --> 00:33:10.034
Personally, I do regret,

476
00:33:11.260 --> 00:33:14.799
some days I wake up in the morning and I regret that I exposed my face,

477
00:33:15.340 --> 00:33:18.480
that my face is known. One of the things is you can't ever go back,

478
00:33:19.495 --> 00:33:32.460
once that happens. Yeah. Actually, before I came here I was talking to someone about what I did and when I mentioned that I don't have any pictures of me online, then they asked, oh, how did you get them all taken down? Right. And my response was I never put them up

479
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.220
in the first place.

480
00:33:35.575 --> 00:33:37.515
What would you say to the people that say

481
00:33:39.015 --> 00:33:41.595
public figures that advocate for privacy are hypocrites?

482
00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:46.910
I I don't I don't think it's hypocritical.

483
00:33:47.530 --> 00:33:52.795
I mean, it may it depends. I think it's a scale, but I I don't think it's hypocritical because,

484
00:33:53.995 --> 00:33:55.935
for me, privacy is about consent.

485
00:33:56.635 --> 00:34:01.990
And, I mean, even though you may regret that you also have a public face as well. I

486
00:34:03.330 --> 00:34:07.350
mean, you did choose. You weren't forced to do that,

487
00:34:07.890 --> 00:34:13.555
even if maybe you regret your decision. And I think continuing to do it is also a choice.

488
00:34:14.335 --> 00:34:17.075
And so for me, privacy is about consent and,

489
00:34:17.910 --> 00:34:19.850
I think a lot of people have the idea that,

490
00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:24.815
I'm not exactly representing the contrary, but a lot of people have the idea that,

491
00:34:25.375 --> 00:34:28.515
privacy is about, you know, completely obscuring yourself and hiding.

492
00:34:29.535 --> 00:34:32.355
And people can do that. I think it's a scale though,

493
00:34:33.250 --> 00:34:35.670
based on your choices and your threat model

494
00:34:36.210 --> 00:34:44.195
and the way you want to live your life. And I think you should always have the option to go at different points of the scale, but I don't think it's invalid

495
00:34:44.975 --> 00:34:51.900
for someone to have a public face and post pictures, but also care about privacy. I don't think that invalidates it because

496
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:54.299
you can have a public face and

497
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:59.055
still be private about where you live and what you're doing and where you're spending your money.

498
00:34:59.775 --> 00:35:03.795
There's a lot of people who have all of those things and have very little privacy.

499
00:35:04.255 --> 00:35:05.075
So I think,

500
00:35:06.750 --> 00:35:09.569
as long as you're working towards it in other areas of your life,

501
00:35:10.190 --> 00:35:10.690
if

502
00:35:11.470 --> 00:35:16.415
if the way you're living makes you happy and you feel like you have a lot of freedom and you can do what you wanna do,

503
00:35:17.775 --> 00:35:23.955
then maybe it's okay to sacrifice privacy in some areas, and that's not a detriment to your life.

504
00:35:24.495 --> 00:35:25.875
I don't know if sharing,

505
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:31.820
my face publicly also would be a detriment to my life, but because I don't

506
00:35:32.120 --> 00:35:34.045
I'm not sure of the consequences. I'm just

507
00:35:35.805 --> 00:35:38.785
being cautious about that. But no, I don't think it's

508
00:35:39.165 --> 00:35:40.545
I don't think it's hypocrisy.

509
00:35:41.405 --> 00:35:45.580
So, I mean, one of the things in the privacy circles that a lot of people talk about is this

510
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:47.420
this almost a meme now,

511
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:53.485
I don't care about privacy because I have nothing to hide. But what I've noticed more myself,

512
00:35:54.025 --> 00:35:56.605
through my education at first in talking to people

513
00:35:56.985 --> 00:35:57.725
is that

514
00:35:58.710 --> 00:36:05.450
in today's age what I see more is people are using lots of social media, you know, they have they have their

515
00:36:05.845 --> 00:36:09.545
assistant devices which are basically like wire taps that are connected in their home,

516
00:36:09.845 --> 00:36:12.585
they send their DNA places and they say to me,

517
00:36:14.005 --> 00:36:15.464
Matt, I'm already screwed,

518
00:36:16.220 --> 00:36:17.119
there's there's

519
00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:20.400
there's nothing I can do to improve my situation.

520
00:36:20.700 --> 00:36:22.319
What would you say to those people?

521
00:36:24.645 --> 00:36:33.530
I would recommend them a book called Extreme Privacy by Michael Bazzell because he actually goes through a lot of he actually, like, makes guides about

522
00:36:33.910 --> 00:36:34.730
how to,

523
00:36:36.069 --> 00:36:40.310
remove yourself from the Internet, even if you use things like Amazon and stuff.

524
00:36:40.855 --> 00:36:44.075
He shows you the opt out policies, the data deletion policies,

525
00:36:45.255 --> 00:36:46.715
which it may not be perfect,

526
00:36:47.495 --> 00:36:51.490
but you definitely can do it to a degree. So I wouldn't say that,

527
00:36:51.950 --> 00:36:54.450
there's very few things where there's a point of

528
00:36:54.990 --> 00:36:56.849
no return where you can't

529
00:36:58.355 --> 00:37:00.215
reverse them or improve them.

530
00:37:00.915 --> 00:37:03.815
So I definitely I don't think that that's a good argument,

531
00:37:04.275 --> 00:37:04.775
because,

532
00:37:06.435 --> 00:37:07.335
if it was,

533
00:37:09.140 --> 00:37:13.560
if it was that hard to do, we wouldn't see so much censorship on the Internet.

534
00:37:13.940 --> 00:37:16.920
We see stuff getting taken down all the time, things getting lost.

535
00:37:18.145 --> 00:37:18.645
So,

536
00:37:19.185 --> 00:37:21.445
there definitely are ways to,

537
00:37:22.465 --> 00:37:28.040
delete yourself from the Internet. You can always improve your situation. Yeah. It's not a lost cause. Yeah.

538
00:37:28.660 --> 00:37:30.200
And even if you can't,

539
00:37:30.980 --> 00:37:31.880
you can also,

540
00:37:32.315 --> 00:37:38.175
you know, change your life, move to a different location, and start fresh. And if you learn about the ways that,

541
00:37:39.675 --> 00:37:44.640
you cannot do those things again, that's an improvement even if, you know,

542
00:37:45.099 --> 00:37:49.520
the the version of you that lived in the previous place that you lived is fully doxed. You can

543
00:37:49.934 --> 00:37:54.035
go somewhere else and still get a sense of safety and privacy,

544
00:37:54.335 --> 00:37:57.154
even if your former life doesn't have that.

545
00:37:57.615 --> 00:37:59.055
So one of the things that,

546
00:38:00.160 --> 00:38:04.420
always intrigued me about you is you're very publicly proud about not carrying a cell phone.

547
00:38:05.520 --> 00:38:08.305
Why don't you carry a cell phone? Everybody carries a cell phone.

548
00:38:09.744 --> 00:38:10.244
Yeah.

549
00:38:10.865 --> 00:38:12.645
So again, this is kind of,

550
00:38:13.345 --> 00:38:14.724
sort of related to

551
00:38:16.420 --> 00:38:17.400
being a technophobe.

552
00:38:18.259 --> 00:38:21.160
I was one of those weird kids that,

553
00:38:21.859 --> 00:38:26.875
it was when it was becoming popular for, you know, teenagers to have cell phones.

554
00:38:27.335 --> 00:38:32.530
I was not interested in having a cell phone at all. My parents actually kind of forced it on me,

555
00:38:33.250 --> 00:38:39.830
because they needed a way to communicate with me. So I have I have used phones, I've used dumb phones, I actually still,

556
00:38:40.145 --> 00:38:45.365
I've I've had so few phones in my life that I still have in my possession all of the phones that I've ever used.

557
00:38:46.705 --> 00:38:51.470
So I have used them, but I've used them in very limited degrees.

558
00:38:52.490 --> 00:38:56.110
Part of that is actually not to do with privacy. It's to do with

559
00:38:56.490 --> 00:38:57.630
kind of the

560
00:38:59.275 --> 00:39:08.569
the patterns of behavior that you get into when you have a smartphone and you're relying on it for everything all the time. For example, I've never had the experience of

561
00:39:09.430 --> 00:39:15.450
laying in bed and reading something on my phone or watching something. I've I've just never used a phone in bed,

562
00:39:15.910 --> 00:39:16.650
at all.

563
00:39:17.555 --> 00:39:20.135
It's not the first thing that I look at when I wake up.

564
00:39:21.155 --> 00:39:22.935
I when I go out to

565
00:39:23.475 --> 00:39:26.055
eat places or go shopping or meet with people,

566
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:30.580
I am not carrying a phone. I try to prearrange

567
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:31.460
plans,

568
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:33.060
and I,

569
00:39:34.184 --> 00:39:35.724
I've become very good at navigating

570
00:39:36.105 --> 00:39:36.605
without,

571
00:39:37.464 --> 00:39:38.605
using any kind

572
00:39:38.984 --> 00:39:43.244
of Internet connected device to help me. I use maps. I use my memory.

573
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.380
I will You use the actual paper maps?

574
00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:49.260
I haven't used paper max paper maps,

575
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:55.085
very much. Part of that is because if you're a person who's walking around carrying a paper map,

576
00:39:55.945 --> 00:39:59.645
you get quickly targeted by people who want to help you,

577
00:40:00.420 --> 00:40:02.360
because they think that you're a lost tourist.

578
00:40:03.460 --> 00:40:05.240
So I would actually recommend,

579
00:40:05.620 --> 00:40:06.260
to people who,

580
00:40:08.075 --> 00:40:12.495
if they want to stop using phones, but they need something to help with navigation,

581
00:40:13.115 --> 00:40:20.040
I actually recommend getting, like, a car, like an auto GPS device because a lot of them look like really chunky smartphones,

582
00:40:20.819 --> 00:40:26.964
but it has a limited function. It tells you where you are and where you want to it helps you get to where you want to go.

583
00:40:27.825 --> 00:40:31.365
So you can go around carrying a device that will help you navigate,

584
00:40:31.744 --> 00:40:37.369
and it looks like a smartphone, so you won't look like a lost tourist. You'll look like everyone else who is using Google Maps

585
00:40:37.910 --> 00:40:39.290
to, walk around.

586
00:40:40.790 --> 00:40:47.505
So And it doesn't have an Internet connection. It's not tracking you. I mean it might, but, like, it's very limited. It's, like, only telling

587
00:40:48.125 --> 00:40:52.190
you about location. Well, I know, like, the dedicated garments don't Yeah.

588
00:40:53.150 --> 00:40:54.450
Like, the maps are preloaded.

589
00:40:54.910 --> 00:40:58.210
Yeah. You can preload. Yeah. You can preload the maps and yeah.

590
00:40:58.510 --> 00:40:59.010
So,

591
00:41:00.665 --> 00:41:06.885
to, yeah, get back to the main thread. Part of the reason I don't use smartphones is just because I don't want to

592
00:41:07.265 --> 00:41:21.045
I I don't wanna constantly be getting notifications. I don't want because I've want a part I've tried to actually learn what is the experience of, like, a person who does rely on their phone and then goes without it. And it's usually, like, digital detox

593
00:41:21.585 --> 00:41:22.085
videos.

594
00:41:22.465 --> 00:41:25.365
And a lot of people say that they're even scared

595
00:41:25.665 --> 00:41:26.165
to

596
00:41:26.820 --> 00:41:32.600
walk out of their own house without a smartphone because they think that they'll get lost on the way. And if they don't have their smartphone,

597
00:41:33.220 --> 00:41:33.720
then

598
00:41:34.135 --> 00:41:37.195
they'll they'll not be able to find their way home. And I find that,

599
00:41:38.375 --> 00:41:40.635
I find that amazing because I've never

600
00:41:41.060 --> 00:41:55.155
I've never had that fear. Like, I part of it is just I prepare so much, but also I just have a good understanding of my surroundings. So if I do get lost, I know, okay, I can walk to a train station. Train stations have, like, area maps. I can use the area maps

601
00:41:55.695 --> 00:41:58.835
to get back to where I'm familiar with the territory.

602
00:42:01.210 --> 00:42:04.430
And so, like, navigation is one example where I

603
00:42:05.290 --> 00:42:07.470
I I don't want to rely on a smartphone

604
00:42:08.405 --> 00:42:09.785
to be telling me,

605
00:42:11.685 --> 00:42:14.745
that information where without it, I am like

606
00:42:15.365 --> 00:42:16.165
I'm like a,

607
00:42:17.970 --> 00:42:23.590
it may, it basically makes me super vulnerable. You would say it's like a com, it's a combination of,

608
00:42:24.325 --> 00:42:29.365
privacy reasons and not wanting to be dependent on it, you don't wanna have this dependence on this

609
00:42:29.685 --> 00:42:35.780
Yeah. And it's it's not just, yeah, it's not just technology either, I'm, like, in my daily life, I try to,

610
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.700
with my with my diet,

611
00:42:41.025 --> 00:42:41.525
I

612
00:42:41.905 --> 00:42:47.204
I don't I avoid alcohol and drugs and basically my only,

613
00:42:47.664 --> 00:42:52.700
I would say, addiction is probably sugar dependency because I can definitely feel when I haven't had sugar.

614
00:42:53.720 --> 00:42:54.780
What about caffeine?

615
00:42:55.160 --> 00:42:57.235
I do not drink coffee. No.

616
00:42:57.615 --> 00:43:00.675
I don't drink coffee. I drink alcohol occasionally, but,

617
00:43:00.975 --> 00:43:02.755
I used that was only since,

618
00:43:03.615 --> 00:43:05.310
recently. Before that, I

619
00:43:05.630 --> 00:43:06.850
never had it. And,

620
00:43:07.390 --> 00:43:11.730
that's kind of in the same category if I'm trying to avoid having dependencies where,

621
00:43:13.065 --> 00:43:15.405
I need to have something or it

622
00:43:15.705 --> 00:43:18.285
affects my mood or my energy level.

623
00:43:18.745 --> 00:43:23.470
And so that's all kind of in the same territory. The the privacy reasons for not having a smartphone

624
00:43:24.730 --> 00:43:26.110
is a very long list,

625
00:43:27.290 --> 00:43:27.790
because,

626
00:43:29.984 --> 00:43:31.765
smartphones have so

627
00:43:32.944 --> 00:43:35.684
many things in them that you do not control.

628
00:43:36.690 --> 00:43:39.349
The hardware is unless you have, like, an open source

629
00:43:40.049 --> 00:43:40.549
phone,

630
00:43:41.250 --> 00:43:46.865
where you can actually take it apart and see how it functions. There is so much happening with smartphones,

631
00:43:48.605 --> 00:43:52.545
that is detrimental to your privacy. Like, every time you unlock your phone,

632
00:43:53.450 --> 00:43:57.869
it's notifying if you have an Android phone. It's like notifying Google about your,

633
00:43:59.289 --> 00:43:59.789
your

634
00:44:00.089 --> 00:44:01.150
location, I think.

635
00:44:04.315 --> 00:44:10.015
And, it was once said that smartphones are basically tracking devices that make phone calls. Right.

636
00:44:11.220 --> 00:44:11.720
So

637
00:44:12.020 --> 00:44:12.520
I

638
00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:19.160
I've there are ways that you can use a smartphone in a privacy preserving way to a degree,

639
00:44:20.244 --> 00:44:24.105
But it's it's, it's I think it's much harder than,

640
00:44:25.685 --> 00:44:26.905
doing that with a laptop.

641
00:44:27.340 --> 00:44:28.880
So I avoid smartphones

642
00:44:29.260 --> 00:44:30.480
as much as possible.

643
00:44:32.220 --> 00:44:34.480
Yeah. I mean, it seems to me that

644
00:44:34.785 --> 00:44:41.045
you grew up with a lot of these values. I mean, that you did you weren't posting pictures on social media. You weren't using

645
00:44:41.585 --> 00:44:43.365
a smartphone at a young age.

646
00:44:44.430 --> 00:44:46.050
When we see kids these days,

647
00:44:46.670 --> 00:44:49.070
well I sound like such an old man kids these days.

648
00:44:49.950 --> 00:45:00.975
You see a lot of kids come in, they're using social media, they're using assistance, you know, voice assistance, they're using iPads. You go you go to dinner, you see a kid with an iPad at at 2 years old,

649
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:02.420
3 years old.

650
00:45:03.040 --> 00:45:05.780
It seems to me that it's a it's a troubling trend.

651
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:11.765
Do you are are you concerned by that? Do do you ever feel that it's maybe a lost cause

652
00:45:13.025 --> 00:45:14.645
these the the work you do?

653
00:45:15.825 --> 00:45:19.924
And how do you how do you battle with that? Like how do you battle with the frustration of of

654
00:45:21.090 --> 00:45:25.190
of this new generation coming basically directly into the surveillance economy?

655
00:45:25.890 --> 00:45:30.390
Yeah. It's especially difficult with children because, I mean their parents often

656
00:45:31.565 --> 00:45:43.970
are at an age where they didn't have that much access to technology when they were children, and so they don't understand the effects that that much technology use at a young age will affect their children.

657
00:45:45.070 --> 00:45:47.650
I'm not and I'm definitely not opposed to kids

658
00:45:48.265 --> 00:45:48.765
using

659
00:45:49.305 --> 00:45:50.525
smartphones or tablets

660
00:45:50.825 --> 00:45:52.765
if the purpose of it is,

661
00:45:53.464 --> 00:45:56.204
for example, education. Like, there are some great

662
00:45:56.750 --> 00:45:58.350
educational apps that,

663
00:45:58.830 --> 00:45:59.330
are

664
00:45:59.950 --> 00:46:04.095
that can, you know, help them learn things in a very interactive and fun way.

665
00:46:05.055 --> 00:46:07.795
But I think that a lot of kids are not using,

666
00:46:08.734 --> 00:46:10.355
these devices for education.

667
00:46:10.895 --> 00:46:13.920
Their parents give them these devices because

668
00:46:14.300 --> 00:46:15.359
it's a good distraction.

669
00:46:15.740 --> 00:46:17.359
It's a digital babysitter.

670
00:46:18.540 --> 00:46:22.705
It's a way for them to often not engage with their children.

671
00:46:23.325 --> 00:46:28.385
And the scary part is a lot of the time they don't even have an awareness of

672
00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:31.920
who else their children are engaging with when they're using,

673
00:46:33.580 --> 00:46:35.440
social media, even these apps.

674
00:46:36.140 --> 00:46:37.840
I've seen some of the

675
00:46:38.825 --> 00:46:45.170
the the ads that play for mobile games. They are incredibly disturbing. I recommend, like,

676
00:46:45.650 --> 00:46:52.470
if you're if you're a person who's never done mobile gaming, I recommend looking up the kinds of ads that play for mobile games. They are

677
00:46:53.154 --> 00:46:54.055
they are scary.

678
00:46:54.914 --> 00:47:00.454
And I, you know, if I've seen them just by looking up, like, examples, then I can imagine

679
00:47:00.859 --> 00:47:04.240
that kids who are playing these games are seeing them.

680
00:47:04.540 --> 00:47:05.040
Because,

681
00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:10.685
like, a lot of these games, you you click a button to say, yeah, I'm 18 years old.

682
00:47:11.165 --> 00:47:20.809
But of course, there's no proof. Right. Every kid's gonna click that button. Yeah. And I don't know if there should be proof. I don't think it should be the responsibility of the game developer to verify a child's age. I think

683
00:47:21.190 --> 00:47:25.369
parents should be responsible and, like, have a good communication with their child,

684
00:47:26.724 --> 00:47:35.990
about what kinds of content they're engaging with. And when a kid gets to a certain age, of course, then it becomes more their choice,

685
00:47:36.529 --> 00:47:42.390
and they may might make mistakes. But when you're dealing with a child who does not understand the consequences of their actions,

686
00:47:43.655 --> 00:47:45.355
it really is the parent's responsibility,

687
00:47:45.735 --> 00:47:46.235
and

688
00:47:46.615 --> 00:47:52.680
children do not understand the consequences of constantly staring at a screen for hours on end every day.

689
00:47:53.780 --> 00:48:02.985
And it's one thing for an adult to do that, and we kind of have an awareness of how that can affect your mental health as an adult. But when you have a developing child,

690
00:48:03.845 --> 00:48:04.345
brain,

691
00:48:05.285 --> 00:48:08.985
that probably even had like, the effects are probably of an even greater magnitude.

692
00:48:09.770 --> 00:48:10.270
So

693
00:48:10.730 --> 00:48:14.270
I'm definitely going to be the type of parent that,

694
00:48:16.455 --> 00:48:22.075
like, I I I don't wanna be the type of parent that says, no, you absolutely can't use this, and I just never provide it to them.

695
00:48:22.455 --> 00:48:26.200
I would explain to them, you know, the dangers of,

696
00:48:27.140 --> 00:48:28.680
the technology that they

697
00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:33.640
want to use. If they want to use it, maybe they won't. Maybe maybe I'll pass on some

698
00:48:34.105 --> 00:48:35.485
privacy genes or something.

699
00:48:35.865 --> 00:48:36.185
But,

700
00:48:36.745 --> 00:48:44.900
I definitely would explain to them, like, here here's the reason. I like, for any kind of rules that I would have for my kids, I would explain why I have the rules that I do,

701
00:48:46.660 --> 00:48:47.160
and,

702
00:48:47.460 --> 00:48:50.120
you know, explain that it's about safety and,

703
00:48:50.505 --> 00:48:51.325
you know, you'll

704
00:48:52.025 --> 00:48:59.405
to at some to some degree, you have to say you'll understand someday because you can't explain everything to them. But, yeah, I'm definitely worried about

705
00:49:00.110 --> 00:49:01.810
the the current trend of,

706
00:49:03.390 --> 00:49:07.410
kids using this technology. And you you can definitely tell that

707
00:49:07.895 --> 00:49:11.415
you can definitely tell that the people who make it are aware of this,

708
00:49:11.735 --> 00:49:14.475
because people are constantly mentioning, like, the

709
00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:19.880
the children of, like, the social media CEOs Right. Aren't letting

710
00:49:20.339 --> 00:49:22.680
that they're not allowed to use this stuff.

711
00:49:23.059 --> 00:49:23.960
And that definitely,

712
00:49:24.500 --> 00:49:27.945
like, tells you that they're aware that it can have negative effects.

713
00:49:28.885 --> 00:49:29.865
What would you say

714
00:49:30.485 --> 00:49:33.460
what would you say to parents that say, you know,

715
00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:36.980
we're living in an increasing digital world. They don't want to,

716
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:40.740
you know, put their kids at a disadvantage by keeping them away from technology.

717
00:49:41.935 --> 00:49:44.275
Yeah. That's the other side is, I mean,

718
00:49:44.655 --> 00:49:50.035
a lot of the time it's not even coming from the parents anymore, it's coming from the schools. A lot of the schools are requiring,

719
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:53.380
like they're they're using Google

720
00:49:53.680 --> 00:49:56.099
systems to do, like, email and

721
00:49:56.799 --> 00:50:02.965
document sharing. Right. And so a lot of the pressure is also coming from the schools, and the parents are being forced into it because

722
00:50:03.345 --> 00:50:05.925
we don't a lot of places don't have school choice,

723
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:09.840
which, you know, that's an aspect of it.

724
00:50:10.240 --> 00:50:10.740
And,

725
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.340
there's also countries where you're not even allowed to homeschool

726
00:50:14.885 --> 00:50:16.984
or do any kind of alternative schooling,

727
00:50:17.925 --> 00:50:23.385
which is something that I also care about. I I definitely think it's important to have a choice in

728
00:50:24.230 --> 00:50:28.170
not only where your child gets educated, but the kind of education

729
00:50:28.710 --> 00:50:31.130
that they are exposed to

730
00:50:31.670 --> 00:50:33.130
because I think,

731
00:50:34.365 --> 00:50:36.065
I've done a lot of research about

732
00:50:37.085 --> 00:50:42.945
education systems and how effective they are, and especially in the US where it's very age restricted,

733
00:50:44.410 --> 00:50:49.470
and kind of assumes that because you're this age, you should be learning these things and

734
00:50:49.930 --> 00:50:55.135
going at this pace. It really doesn't make sense. I think education should be

735
00:50:55.914 --> 00:50:56.974
much more individualized,

736
00:50:58.474 --> 00:51:00.830
to the child and that children should be given more freedom

737
00:51:01.310 --> 00:51:04.290
to decide actually what they're interested in and pursue that.

738
00:51:05.390 --> 00:51:07.330
But, yeah, back to privacy.

739
00:51:08.430 --> 00:51:08.925
Yeah.

740
00:51:09.405 --> 00:51:10.625
Children are really

741
00:51:11.885 --> 00:51:12.385
disadvantaged

742
00:51:12.685 --> 00:51:15.665
privacy wise because of the education system.

743
00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:25.565
Like, all of their school work, all of their learning is often happening on systems that are surveilled and part of the reason is because schools

744
00:51:25.885 --> 00:51:28.865
want to surveil children and make sure they're doing their homework,

745
00:51:29.805 --> 00:51:30.305
because,

746
00:51:31.005 --> 00:51:35.105
the parent like, the parents or the community hasn't instilled in these kids.

747
00:51:36.670 --> 00:51:37.170
Oftentimes,

748
00:51:37.710 --> 00:51:38.210
the

749
00:51:38.750 --> 00:51:39.490
kind of,

750
00:51:41.870 --> 00:51:50.375
they, like, have to kind of coerce them to get the work done. They're not relying on the kill the the children having values of,

751
00:51:50.994 --> 00:51:53.560
you know, self learning type values,

752
00:51:55.380 --> 00:51:55.880
which

753
00:51:56.180 --> 00:51:57.720
means that they try to

754
00:51:58.020 --> 00:52:01.395
solve that by implementing surveillance systems. And I think that,

755
00:52:02.675 --> 00:52:06.135
using surveillance to solve social social issues is not,

756
00:52:06.595 --> 00:52:07.655
a good move.

757
00:52:08.830 --> 00:52:13.650
Yeah. I mean, I a a lot of times I'm very grateful that, you know, we were both born in a time where,

758
00:52:14.670 --> 00:52:25.185
surveillance, at least digital surveillance wasn't so all encompassing. You know, now kids are just born basically into surveillance. They've never known anything else. Especially with the pandemic and everything being on Zoom.

759
00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:30.060
Oh, that was just, like, super acceleration there. And now they're talking about,

760
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:33.820
if this, you know, if this happens again, if they keep doing this, then

761
00:52:34.625 --> 00:52:37.045
they're they're gonna try and implement, like,

762
00:52:38.545 --> 00:52:45.650
software with Zoom or any of these other platforms where they actually check, like, they read the the child's, like, expression,

763
00:52:46.190 --> 00:52:49.090
their their face, and to see if they're, like, paying attention.

764
00:52:50.830 --> 00:52:51.570
So they're,

765
00:52:52.535 --> 00:52:53.035
yeah,

766
00:52:53.815 --> 00:53:04.359
I, duh, I I don't like that road at all. The pandemic definitely accelerated a bunch of things with surveillance and education that I don't like. It's so interesting because those types of stories are

767
00:53:05.299 --> 00:53:08.119
it's like it's 2 fold. It's both it makes you frustrated,

768
00:53:08.585 --> 00:53:12.125
when you work in the privacy space but it also At least to me it

769
00:53:12.425 --> 00:53:17.005
it reaffirms why it's so important to to keep pushing forward and to keep trying to,

770
00:53:17.700 --> 00:53:20.359
at least, at the very least improve education on that front.

771
00:53:20.660 --> 00:53:21.560
So we have,

772
00:53:22.180 --> 00:53:26.845
this free Assange cape behind us in frame. Why is this case important to you?

773
00:53:29.005 --> 00:53:31.984
I mean, in short, the case is important to me because,

774
00:53:32.285 --> 00:53:35.744
I mean, it it's had such an impact on my life that,

775
00:53:37.310 --> 00:53:40.370
I don't think I don't think I would be sitting here

776
00:53:40.990 --> 00:53:43.170
or on stage at Oslo Freedom Forum,

777
00:53:43.955 --> 00:53:47.815
in 2 days. I don't think I would be at either of those places without,

778
00:53:48.595 --> 00:53:49.735
his work because,

779
00:53:51.235 --> 00:53:53.415
I definitely did not grow up

780
00:53:53.770 --> 00:53:55.390
in an environment where,

781
00:53:56.490 --> 00:53:58.910
you know, being interested in that kind of stuff was

782
00:53:59.290 --> 00:53:59.790
encouraged

783
00:54:00.330 --> 00:54:01.310
or even

784
00:54:02.335 --> 00:54:03.394
acknowledged really.

785
00:54:04.095 --> 00:54:05.394
I was very

786
00:54:06.255 --> 00:54:09.954
self motivated to learn more about it and support it.

787
00:54:11.060 --> 00:54:12.360
And I think,

788
00:54:13.620 --> 00:54:16.040
I mean, this is also a very critical time because,

789
00:54:17.540 --> 00:54:19.035
not very long ago,

790
00:54:19.655 --> 00:54:23.035
it became the date where the home secretary in the UK can,

791
00:54:23.895 --> 00:54:24.395
announce

792
00:54:24.934 --> 00:54:28.520
whether she approves or rejects the extradition request from the US.

793
00:54:29.380 --> 00:54:39.805
And, if she does approve it, that's not the end of the game because they can still appeal in the court system in the UK, and then they can appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, which

794
00:54:40.345 --> 00:54:44.125
the UK is still beholden to even though they've left the European Union.

795
00:54:45.570 --> 00:54:49.590
So it's a very critical time right now because there's been a lot of protests

796
00:54:49.890 --> 00:54:50.390
about,

797
00:54:51.570 --> 00:54:53.830
that decision because I think it still is important.

798
00:54:55.984 --> 00:55:06.500
And but the whole thing is unfortunate in general because he shouldn't actually even be in Belmarsh prison right now because he technically won the case. And most people when,

799
00:55:07.200 --> 00:55:11.234
you know, they win a case and then it's being appealed by either side,

800
00:55:12.015 --> 00:55:12.515
they

801
00:55:12.815 --> 00:55:15.315
are mandated to, you know, stay

802
00:55:15.615 --> 00:55:18.115
within the state, but they're not in prison.

803
00:55:18.710 --> 00:55:24.250
And the fact that he's in a maximum security prison when he isn't even accused of a violent crime

804
00:55:24.630 --> 00:55:28.170
is insane. Like, he's sharing cells with people who have been

805
00:55:28.855 --> 00:55:30.555
accused or convicted of terrorism.

806
00:55:31.815 --> 00:55:32.315
It's

807
00:55:32.775 --> 00:55:32.855
it's

808
00:55:34.375 --> 00:55:36.555
it it makes no sense from,

809
00:55:37.750 --> 00:55:39.530
a criminal justice point of view.

810
00:55:39.830 --> 00:55:43.610
It also especially doesn't make sense because the work that he did exposed

811
00:55:45.244 --> 00:55:45.744
crime

812
00:55:46.045 --> 00:55:47.265
by very powerful

813
00:55:47.964 --> 00:55:53.345
states and people around the world. And so if anyone should be in prison, it's the people that he exposed,

814
00:55:54.060 --> 00:55:54.880
not him.

815
00:55:56.620 --> 00:55:58.800
What would you what would you say to people

816
00:56:01.340 --> 00:56:03.165
who say that him

817
00:56:03.785 --> 00:56:07.485
his work, Assange's work with WikiLeaks and leaking documents,

818
00:56:08.985 --> 00:56:10.845
should be considered a criminal act?

819
00:56:14.050 --> 00:56:15.590
I would say that they

820
00:56:17.890 --> 00:56:26.975
I mean, for 1, the work that he did wasn't actually so different from the work that national security journalists and a ton of other journalists do already.

821
00:56:27.435 --> 00:56:28.895
The only difference is that

822
00:56:30.940 --> 00:56:33.920
most of them don't usually publish original source documents.

823
00:56:34.460 --> 00:56:37.040
They do sometimes, but not at this volume.

824
00:56:38.135 --> 00:56:40.475
And most people see that as

825
00:56:41.975 --> 00:56:43.915
somehow a worse form of journalism,

826
00:56:44.695 --> 00:56:54.530
but I've always appreciated journalists who publish their sources because it gives the reader the opportunity to verify the information for themselves and not have to trust

827
00:56:54.994 --> 00:56:55.734
the person

828
00:56:56.515 --> 00:56:57.095
who has,

829
00:56:57.875 --> 00:56:58.535
you know,

830
00:56:58.994 --> 00:57:01.335
put it through their own personal filter.

831
00:57:03.299 --> 00:57:09.559
Like, I I value the opinion much more of people who say this is my interpretation of this information,

832
00:57:10.275 --> 00:57:18.375
But if you don't agree with that, you can look at the source documents yourself, and maybe I got it wrong. Maybe it says something else.

833
00:57:19.430 --> 00:57:21.610
Maybe the the impact of it is different.

834
00:57:23.030 --> 00:57:24.570
I would also say that the,

835
00:57:26.070 --> 00:57:30.915
one of the allegations that was made is that the release of those documents caused harm.

836
00:57:31.535 --> 00:57:36.115
And both in the trial for Chelsea or the court martial for Chelsea Manning,

837
00:57:36.810 --> 00:57:37.470
that happened

838
00:57:38.010 --> 00:57:38.990
many years ago.

839
00:57:39.370 --> 00:57:41.310
And even now, this case in the UK,

840
00:57:41.690 --> 00:57:42.670
there was opportunities

841
00:57:43.130 --> 00:57:45.505
for the US government to make the case,

842
00:57:46.545 --> 00:57:50.005
give evidence that harm was caused as a result of these disclosures,

843
00:57:50.464 --> 00:57:52.884
they could not cite a single person. I think

844
00:57:53.184 --> 00:57:54.404
in the UK trial,

845
00:57:55.730 --> 00:57:57.350
they gave an example of

846
00:57:57.810 --> 00:57:59.590
someone having to move.

847
00:58:00.530 --> 00:58:02.790
They had to, like, move out of the country or something.

848
00:58:03.090 --> 00:58:07.695
That was their reasoning. Yeah. But no no physical harm. No one died.

849
00:58:08.795 --> 00:58:12.175
They did not provide a single example of anyone getting harm.

850
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:14.260
On the other

851
00:58:15.040 --> 00:58:17.300
side, what the documents reveal is

852
00:58:18.080 --> 00:58:19.940
massive harm, massive

853
00:58:20.240 --> 00:58:20.740
carnage,

854
00:58:21.775 --> 00:58:27.155
that we would not even know about without these documents because the US government and other states,

855
00:58:28.175 --> 00:58:30.195
were actively hiding this information.

856
00:58:30.910 --> 00:58:35.730
We would not have any idea of the civilian casualties from all of the wars that are being waged.

857
00:58:36.750 --> 00:58:39.410
We wouldn't have an idea of the corruption involved.

858
00:58:40.385 --> 00:58:45.125
And I think the idea that we would try to point our finger at someone like him and say

859
00:58:45.505 --> 00:58:48.245
you've caused harm but we have no evidence of this

860
00:58:48.625 --> 00:58:49.525
and ignore

861
00:58:49.905 --> 00:58:52.390
the the evidence of the harm that has actually happened,

862
00:58:54.130 --> 00:58:54.630
is,

863
00:58:56.130 --> 00:58:58.390
I think it's it's simply dishonest

864
00:58:59.765 --> 00:59:02.185
because the person is kind of presenting this argument

865
00:59:03.285 --> 00:59:03.785
usually,

866
00:59:04.965 --> 00:59:12.710
implying that they care about people being harmed. And my response is if you care about people being harmed, you would actually look at the data.

867
00:59:13.170 --> 00:59:15.110
You would actually look at the source material

868
00:59:15.535 --> 00:59:18.435
and see what it tells you, not try to

869
00:59:18.975 --> 00:59:23.155
basically put him outside the political tent of journalism,

870
00:59:23.455 --> 00:59:25.589
which means that he can be put in prison

871
00:59:26.130 --> 00:59:27.430
for exposing crime,

872
00:59:27.970 --> 00:59:29.829
having harmed no one.

873
00:59:31.329 --> 00:59:37.495
Janine, I wanna thank you again for joining us. If you could say one thing to someone who may not really,

874
00:59:38.515 --> 00:59:42.055
understand the importance of privacy and freedom in their lives, what would it be?

875
00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:46.220
Well, I think going on for the last question,

876
00:59:46.839 --> 00:59:47.820
part of the reason

877
00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:54.265
that, I wanted to have this here today, especially if they also have freedom for them because I'm gonna be wearing it as a cape,

878
00:59:55.125 --> 00:59:55.785
is because

879
00:59:56.484 --> 00:59:57.145
the woman,

880
00:59:57.765 --> 00:59:59.545
who came up with the term cypherpunk,

881
01:00:00.230 --> 01:00:00.970
Jude Millen,

882
01:00:01.510 --> 01:00:02.810
also known as Saint Jude,

883
01:00:03.110 --> 01:00:06.890
she wrote for the original Wired magazine before it was called Wired magazine.

884
01:00:07.705 --> 01:00:09.405
In 1993, she said,

885
01:00:09.705 --> 01:00:12.765
another caped nerd for peace, justice, and privacy,

886
01:00:13.225 --> 01:00:14.925
and I've always liked that phrase.

887
01:00:16.280 --> 01:00:17.980
And so part of the reason I,

888
01:00:18.359 --> 01:00:22.619
I'm going to wear this as a cape is because I'm kind of playing on that slogan.

889
01:00:23.935 --> 01:00:27.395
And there's this phrase that we hear all the time, not all heroes wear capes.

890
01:00:28.095 --> 01:00:31.250
And so I would say, also not all nerds wear capes.

891
01:00:32.930 --> 01:00:33.430
And

892
01:00:34.130 --> 01:00:39.110
these days, a lot of a lot of heroes instead of wearing capes, they're wearing prison jumpsuits.

893
01:00:40.445 --> 01:00:42.625
And if part of the foundation

894
01:00:43.485 --> 01:00:44.225
of justice,

895
01:00:45.805 --> 01:00:50.250
is that you speak up for those who can't speak for themselves, then,

896
01:00:51.110 --> 01:00:58.375
I want to wear this as a message that I will be or I will always try to be one of those people.

897
01:01:00.035 --> 01:01:02.375
Awesome. Thanks, Janine. Really appreciate it.