FREEDOM MONEY: JEWHER ILHAM

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Created: 5/20/2024 5:54:54 PM
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Johar Ilam is an author and advocate for the Uber community and for imprisoned father, Uber economist Ilham Totti. Johar has testified before US Congress, published op eds in the New York Times and The Guardian, and received numerous international awards on behalf of her father, including the European

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Saccaro

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prize. In 2015 and then later in 2022,

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Jo Har released 2 books about their struggle and the fight for freedom. Jo Har currently works at the Workers Rights Consortium as forced labor project coordinator and serves as spokesperson for the coalition to end Uber forced labor. She is also assisting on the production of a new documentary film about Uggers and their fight called Static and Noise.

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Johar,

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thank you for joining me.

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Your story is extremely powerful. It's very compelling story.

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So I think the best place for us to start here is is, you know, what brings you to Oslo?

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What is what is your mission here?

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So this is actually my first time, invited to speak to be speaking at the Oslo Freedom Forum. And today, I spoke about, how the Chinese government has been implementing repressive policies in the Uyghur region,

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and targeting the Uyghur people,

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you know,

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abusing,

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abusing the people, and violating our rights,

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and subjecting Uyghur's to, you know, widespread detention, and forced labor, and all kinds of other types of egregious human rights abuses.

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You were were you born in China?

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Yes. I was born and raised in Beijing, actually. I was not raised in my homeland,

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unfortunately,

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but I got to,

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I got to, learn and,

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learn about my own culture and my language after coming to the US because I was not free to do so when I was living in Beijing.

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So as an American,

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we talk about freedom a lot,

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but we don't experience

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our freedom being taken away on a firsthand basis.

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How does that

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shape you as an individual, and how you move forward with your life?

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So, in China,

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there there's no any

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forms of freedom of expression exist,

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no freedom of speech,

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no freedom of thought,

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and you will be surprised when I'm you will be like, how does freedom of thought even get how can anyone know what you're thinking? Right? I'm gonna explain to you about that in a little bit. And, freedom to speak, freedom to write,

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not only within the Weihua region, but also outside of the Weihua region. There's no any forms of freedom of expression in China, and it's mainly targeting

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the,

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Turkic ethnic minority groups, like Uyghurs, like the Kazakhs, like the Kyrgyz,

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but also the Chinese government has also been targeting

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their own people, the Han Chinese people as well. So anyone

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who

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dares to share their free will, their free minds, their free,

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you know, expression

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is going to be targeted.

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And when I earlier mentioned about freedom to think Right.

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So now the Chinese government has been, as I mentioned, you know, implementing oppressive policies in the Uyghur region, locking up millions of people.

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Under

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in order to

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justify their actions, the Chinese government says that, says that

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they are,

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locking millions of people, because they are tainted by extremist thoughts, extremist

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thoughts, or, you know, separatist,

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thoughts.

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Don't you find this claim very odd?

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Because how do you know

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if this person is tainted

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by

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any kinds of thought or not. Read their mind. Exactly.

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And often and also from this BBC interview that I've watched, it's a it's a docu short documentary.

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One of these detainees

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spoke to the journalist

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said, I was I am here studying because

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I had,

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the Chinese,

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government, our party, have found out that I was tainted by religious extremist thought, and the Chinese government saved me.

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When I saw that statement,

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my heart

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was breaking because

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he had to make that statement. He had to blame it on himself

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in order to save him or probably his family members

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from the Chinese government's

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you know, hands.

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So

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it seems that this idea of

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criminalized thought is is almost used as an excuse to persecute people that justify their actions. Right. To

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it's it's used as their reason, but it that's not the real reason. Right? Exactly. The real reason is power and control, presumably. Yes. The power and control. Actually, I mentioned that in my talk as

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well. The Uyghur region is full of natural resources, and it's it's it has great advantage for geopolitical value, their

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geopolitical value, and also because of the ethnic

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and culture differences

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between the Uyghurs and Han Chinese,

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which makes

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the Uyghurs or any group

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so threatening to the Chinese regime. Well, according to the Chinese government, for for them in their heads, that's probably how they're thinking, misassuming.

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And

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and it's really

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it's really frustrating

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because

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the Chinese government is getting away from these actions,

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even though they're labeling

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all Uyghur people as terrorists,

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as extremists, as separatists,

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and then putting them in prison,

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people are not doing much about it.

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Why do you think there's not more support in the West?

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It's all about the money. I mean, that definitely plays a part. It's not probably not completely

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because of, you know,

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the money.

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But definitely,

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I also mentioned that in my talk as well because of the,

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you know, China has been investing in hundreds of countries, like, with throughout with the Belt and Road Initiative project, which is China's flagship trade project,

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with the nearby countries countries that are located in, in in in Central Asia, you know, throughout those

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circle

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silk road lines,

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has been, you know, receiving help from the Chinese government, and the Chinese government have been has been

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building different kinds of infrastructures and

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infrastructures in those countries.

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And, for example, a perfect example, Pakistan.

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Pakistan has been

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known on commenting on human rights abuses happening in all around the world, but they have been very silent on commenting on the Uighur issue. Why?

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The prime minister themselves had had stated,

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directly in one of, publicly in one of the interview he had, he said, oh, China has been,

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giving us lots of help.

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If we need to talk something we need to go under the table behind the scenes we cannot just publicly, you know, say that you're doing something wrong, like it's not the exact quote. But they don't want a repercussion there. Yes exactly,

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they don't want to lose the support

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from the Chinese government, and I'm sure that goes with lots of other countries as well. And probably even corporations. So you see US corporations that Not only is China's a massive market. Right? Yes.

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There are hundreds of corporations that are operating in the Uyghur region or outside of the Uyghur region,

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but still using Uyghur workers because the Chinese government has been transporting Uyghurs outside of the Uyghur region

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as part of the labor transport programs,

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working for multinational

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corporations under circum under conditions that strongly indicate forced labor.

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But they so the corporations in this situation are are pretending that it's not forced labor. Well, some are pretend. Well,

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sometimes the corporations well, in the beginning, the corporations can claim that they didn't know this was happening, but at this juncture there's no way that companies don't know this is happening because

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whether it's rights activists or labor rights monitoring groups

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have been exposing with, with the different reports, and we have been reaching out to companies and informing that this is happening, and we have been calling on calling them on urgently, ending their ties with the UHU region

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at every level of their supply chain. And this is really the the reason that I said it's urgent is because Uyghurs can't wait anymore.

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Right.

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This did not happen just a couple of years ago. It has been happen happening for years years years.

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And finally, we have attention

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from, you know, international

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community. And finally,

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you

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know, I have personally been calling on consumers to talk to the companies that they shop from the most, whether it's Walmart or Hugo Boss or Zara or Uniqlo or whatever brands that is. Talk to them, you know. We're consumers and we hold power, whether you or anyone who who who is listening to this. Yeah. We won't spend our money yet. Yes. And we have we don't have control over which companies,

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build a factory in whichever

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region or source from where. We don't have control over that, but we do have control over our own wallets.

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And we can influence businesses over over that with

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our choice of,

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purchase.

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And we can influence them and make them know if they if you do if you don't choose to be on the right side of of the history, if you don't choose to be ethical,

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We don't want to spend our money on somebody's bloods and sweats and tears.

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So

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I'm trying to understand

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exactly how that process looks and

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where you have these forced laborers. It's practically slavery. Right? Yes. It's modern day slavery. So you have these you have this the slave labor that is going to

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these multinational

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factories to produce all this.

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How is the company

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like, how does that process work? Are they are they contracting out to basically Chinese government

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personnel that are bringing them workers?

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It's, so the supply chains are very complex. Usually,

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there are different it could be

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operating

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very differently throughout the whole region, even though they're just right next to each other. They could operate very differently. So

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there there's some circumstances.

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The even though

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the

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company, let's say the corporation has has been claiming, oh we've done our due diligence, here's our tier 1, tier 2, what about tier 3? What about the subcontractors?

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Have you found out where they're sourcing from? Where are they manufacturing?

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Who are making the products? Do you know? Have you really done your due diligence?

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Oftentimes because companies have gotten so used to getting away from things,

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they have they haven't done

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their own real proper due diligence. And they kinda don't wanna know. Right? It costs lots of money and it does not only cost money, and you have to have experts,

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which another issue is that the due diligence mechanism that work elsewhere in the whole world doesn't work in China, and that's another

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problem. I'm not trying to defend,

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businesses. This is not an not an excuse. They have other choice, which is to leave the river region completely and exit

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the you know, we were forced to pay for completely. They do have that choice. They can't use this as an excuse that, oh, due diligence doesn't work, so we can provide you with, you know, our supply chain information. They can't use that information.

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So because of the surveillance, because of the severity of the surveillance in the Ural region,

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not only the workers are monitored and not free, like, not feeling safe. They cannot feel safe to talk about

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their what they're really going through. If you have,

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basically, the workers are not allowed to talk to an investigator

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or,

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or an auditor separately.

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You will have your factory head of the factory or whatever it's called next to you. Will you really talk to if your boss is next talking to next to you and I interview you said tell me the flaw of this company. Will you tell me? And you are in the US in order to not lose your job or in order to not lose anything or

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lose your salary or And the stakes are even higher there. Exactly. For them it's not about losing job or losing money. It's about losing lives

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or

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facing more

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abuses. So and not only their own safety, their family members safety is all, they are also at risk. So there's no way to learn about the true conditions of the labor workers by just simply doing, you know, investigations, by talking to them, by interviewing them. It's just not possible. And second of all, not only workers' safety are not guaranteed.

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Even auditors. There has been reports coming out that auditors were arrested the moment they got

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arrived in Urumqi Airport, when they arrived at the airport in the UHU region.

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So if auditors cannot even be granted, their safety cannot be granted,

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How do you expect workers

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Right.

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To tell the truth? So there's a whole system essentially in place Exactly. To hide this fact and keep it sheltered.

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That's why

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there's no way

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for any corporation

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from any sector

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to claim that they're completely free of forced labor unless they exit the Uyghur region at every level of their supply chain. We're not only talking about

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not operating inside the region. We're also talking about if you are even if you are outside of of the Uyghur region working in some mainland Chinese,

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you know, cities.

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But you will have to make sure

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that you're not unknowingly or knowingly sourcing from the Uyghur region, or hiring Uyghurs that are participating in forced cyber transfer programs in mainland

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mainland China, which is like Shandong, Beijing, China.

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All across the country? Yes. They're all over the countries. There are more than like 80,000,

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just in one single report you found like, over 80,000 workers who has been transported. I think it was in 2020 or 2019.

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I forgot the exact date of this report, but just in one report you have seen,

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you learned that over 80,000 of the workers have been transported. Imagine

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other reports or those that we haven't even found out or that we haven't been able to be informed. Right. Talking about some sensitive issues

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can come with a lot of pressure,

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can come with a lot of pain.

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What

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difficulties are you finding

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with this particular mission? Where are your pain points?

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There are many.

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First of all, as I mentioned that

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there's so many different kinds of human rights abuses that are happening in the Uyghur region.

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Forced Labour is just one of them.

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Having to pick a focus, it's already difficult, but you can't I can definitely talk about everything, but I'm just one person. I can't,

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you know,

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talking about everything in the in a detailed way. So I had to pick a focus, and choosing that focus was difficult. And I just and I thought

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eventually I decided for sober forced labor will be the focus because

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the the existence of the forced labor

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of the Uyghur region, of the Uyghur workers, workers

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are in some way, if you think about it, they're funding the existence of all the other human rights abuses.

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Because

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I was explaining this to somebody,

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earlier today.

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People would be like, oh, why don't you focus on that? Why don't you focus on this? Why don't you focus on that?

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So

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the Chinese government

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is not dumb.

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They're actually very smart people.

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They would not, they do not they would not do a business that will make them lose money or lose anything else.

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So locking

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up millions of people, building thousands of factories

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and, you know,

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detention centers, checkpoints,

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and having DNA collection,

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you know facial

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recognition system,

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they cost lots of money. And where do you think all this money come from? Did you really think the Chinese government would want to spend all this massive, 1,000,000,000 of dollars just on Uyghur people that they did not even want?

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That did not want that they never cared about? I didn't think so.

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And so where do they where do they fill in the gap of all these money costs, or those financial costs? By putting

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Uyghurs to work,

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by making Uyghurs and putting them into work

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by not paying Uyghur workers

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by making them working on you know, more than 12 hours a day, not giving them any payment, and

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abusing them, they they can they get to indoctrinate them,

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brainwash them, and earn profits from from it. And then use those profits. And use those money to build more,

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surveillance camera, collect more DNA and

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abuse more people.

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So it seems this I mean, you talked about surveillance cameras, you talked about DNA logging.

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Is this

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it seems surveillance is a main aspect of how they do their oppression.

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It's one of it, but it's definitely

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how they started it.

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You know, first

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surveilling you by collecting your phone data, your computer data. And till now just a couple days ago,

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I had a weird login after I got into,

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after I arrived in Oslo. I had a weird login on my laptop,

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in my email and that is very frequent

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every few every few times every few days before I do an event, before I do an important talk,

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before I do something, anything,

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like, considered kind of unusual Right. There will be an

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unrecognized

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login attempt to my account.

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And I have come to the point that I'm so used to it, and I'm like, okay, just check whatever you want. I'm not doing anything behind the scenes anyways. Just

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learn about everything you want anyways. It frustrates me because who likes their privacy to be violated?

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I don't think anyone would enjoy that.

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And,

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besides, you know, hacking into your

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your your phone, your email, I also know other rights advocates or researchers,

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and even, like, website,

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people who who does website, they have constantly face cyber attacks

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and face of, you know, their their information, their data that for for the research are at risk too.

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So it's and and the Chinese government collects those data, collects those information

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to use against you,

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but not only to threaten your own safety, but they can also use to threaten your families, and friends safety in order to make you shut up.

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I I I know, like,

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a lady,

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an activist,

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she used to write to newspapers

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anonymously,

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and she never she was never actively

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in front of the camera. So

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she thought there was no way the Chinese government

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knew, like, would know it was her that doing all these things. But then

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her picture was sent to her family,

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relatives back in the Uyghur region, and that family member reached out to her and said could you please

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shut up?

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They figured it out some other means and then they threatened the family. They threatened the so they threaten the activists by making the family.

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Right. So they would not talk to

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the activists themselves and saying I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this to you. They make the family approach saying if you don't do this I will die, or I will go to prison, or I something will happen to me, to you, so please shut up.

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It's brutal.

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Because

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of course we all care about our family members, we all love our family members.

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And oftentimes when it comes from a police person or from a secure state security, it angers us and make us, okay, I'm gonna do more. Right. But when it comes to our family members, we just feel sad and heartache and we said, yes, I will shut up.

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This is this is really heavy.

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I

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so

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we talked about surveillance,

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we talked about surveillance, we have these forced labor camps that they're running,

290
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is there,

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are there pain points in the, on the financial side, are they censoring payments, are they

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seizing bank accounts?

293
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Yes,

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so recently if you look up Google Google you will find, even on the Chinese Baidu you will find the Chinese government has been putting with over assets and, properties

295
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under, into auction,

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00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:27.850
under auction into auction what is the preposition there that we use? Un auction? I don't know. They seize it and then they auction it off. Right? Yes. They auction it. So if you search from Chinese Baidu, which is a searching engine like like Google, you will find that the Chinese government has been, you know, confiscating Uber assets and properties and then auctioning auctioning it off. So

297
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and then you will wonder

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why the Chinese government is, you know, how many why there are so many properties and why there are so many assets out there for auction,

299
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available for auction, because those people are in a camp or a prison

300
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or they have died.

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And the but in our usual country let's say if somebody died or

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or,

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disappeared or anything happened to them,

304
00:21:52.414 --> 00:21:57.929
the properties or the assets will go to their family members. Right. But no, it goes to the government.

305
00:21:58.230 --> 00:22:03.450
It goes to the Chinese government in for for the case of the Uyghurs. And also besides that,

306
00:22:04.385 --> 00:22:11.205
like for example, my family's case, my father, when he was arrested, the Chinese government froze our bank account.

307
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My stepmom, she had to raise 2 little kids all by herself in Beijing. Beijing is, like, one of the most expensive city to live in in China, and her salary was not good

308
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at all because she was a librarian and librarian in China does not earn a good salary. I don't know about other countries. Same in America.

309
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It's very low. It's maybe like $500 to $600

310
00:22:32.510 --> 00:22:37.410
in a month in in China and Beijing. And she had to raise 2 kids by herself.

311
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The Chinese government is so brutal that they do not consider anything that is going to like, any consequences that would happen, that would how it would affect other family members.

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And

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not talking about my family, if if you also,

314
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there's this lady from Australia.

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Her parents were both sentenced to 20 years for

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transferring

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money to her, so they could

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so the parents can support her to buy her first new house after she was married.

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How brutal is that? From China, sent to Australia

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To their own daughter? Yes. To their own daughter to buy a house

321
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for her to live live. And in and and

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this is in Uighur culture and also in most of Asian cultures too, which parents

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financially support their kids to buy their first home or to contribute

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to some part of the purchase of the new home, of the first home. And it's a part of the culture which Chinese

325
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people also practice that culture as well.

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So they should be under they should understand more than anyone

327
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that what are what this money was for, but

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the Chinese government sentenced them to 20 years and claimed that they were financially supporting overseas extremists or separatist groups, and this is a term that the Chinese government often used to justify their action.

329
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And this is not just one single case.

330
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Many, many Uyghur families and daughters

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and sons they cannot,

332
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even like Uyghur

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students in the United States,

334
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they can't pay their tuitions anymore. Right. They have to they have to quit school.

335
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Some of them started doing IT because that was the shortest,

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takes shortest amount of time so they can get get into a job, so the job market and then can can actually pay off their debt or, you know,

337
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pay off their school tuition.

338
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I don't I'm not sure about for Americans who go within the States how much tuition that costs, but I know it's not as high compared to international students.

339
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I had to pay $43,000

340
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for 1 year tuition plus the school

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housing.

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And

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if family members are not supporting

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your teenage,

345
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you know, young adults,

346
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freshman or sophomore

347
00:24:56.125 --> 00:25:01.025
years kid who cannot legally work in the United States with their legal status,

348
00:25:01.565 --> 00:25:10.210
who is gonna financially support them. Right. And so those kids are forced to drop out of school even though they are doing brilliantly in school. And not all universities

349
00:25:10.910 --> 00:25:11.570
will be

350
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would be giving or having all this money to give to all the Uyghur students to cover their their tuition. So that's why, you know,

351
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I really hope

352
00:25:21.590 --> 00:25:33.245
whoever is listening this, if they really think if they're think thinking oh I don't want to be publicly supporting a political campaign because it might be risking this or that what you could

353
00:25:33.625 --> 00:25:36.125
do the least is to support an Uyghur student

354
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who is struggling financially to pay off their school debt,

355
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or who just want to simply take a computer course

356
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so they can actually find a job. Is there a specific organization that does that in the States? If they reach out to all the organizations

357
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they will be able to lead you. You just reach out to them say I want to find we were students who want to go to school.

358
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If as long as as long as you do that, I'm sure any of the organization

359
00:26:02.150 --> 00:26:04.650
will be able available to connect you to someone.

360
00:26:05.434 --> 00:26:10.174
And you like, real change happens with with the youth. Right? That's gotta be a very powerful

361
00:26:10.554 --> 00:26:16.799
thing you can do. One sad thing that I want to point out is that because of Chinese government's repressive policies,

362
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the Uyghurs are at risk of not

363
00:26:19.899 --> 00:26:20.399
only

364
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losing our freedom

365
00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:25.725
of expression, but also losing our culture, our language, and

366
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our religion as well, our ties to our religion. Because, as I mentioned,

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I learned the Uyghur language after coming to the US at Indiana University because I was lucky enough they had Uyghur language program. I didn't know how to speak, you know, very well. I didn't know how to read or write at all. I learned it all

368
00:26:45.285 --> 00:26:53.050
in the United States. You grew up with Mandarin. Yes. I grew up with Mandarin. I only spoke very little Uyghur language because I was in Beijing

369
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and they don't have Uyghur language

370
00:26:55.830 --> 00:26:59.530
school there and you're not allowed to learn or practice, you know,

371
00:26:59.990 --> 00:27:01.530
your religion and school.

372
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So, for many Uyghurs now

373
00:27:04.655 --> 00:27:08.195
it's not only not allowed in the way we're in Beijing anymore,

374
00:27:09.090 --> 00:27:11.270
they also don't don't allow it

375
00:27:12.610 --> 00:27:14.070
elsewhere. So in that case,

376
00:27:14.610 --> 00:27:23.485
one day slowly slowly maybe I will be the last person you know that speak your language, and we cannot make that happen. We cannot allow that happen. That's why

377
00:27:24.080 --> 00:27:27.460
if if also whoever is willing to contribute to the cause,

378
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:30.419
fund a project that can maintain agriculture

379
00:27:31.304 --> 00:27:33.245
and, you know, language studies,

380
00:27:34.184 --> 00:27:47.465
contribute to, you know, schools like Indiana Universities who have language programs like this, or fund a university to make them have a language program like this, hire Uyghurs to make them start spreading, you know, Uyghur knowledge and cultures.

381
00:27:47.845 --> 00:27:49.705
This will be very helpful because

382
00:27:50.245 --> 00:27:54.505
who knows, maybe one day if we can preserve our Uyghur culture and language

383
00:27:54.805 --> 00:27:57.440
there, at least we can preserve it here.

384
00:28:03.475 --> 00:28:05.495
Sorry. It's very stressful. I know.

385
00:28:06.275 --> 00:28:06.775
I,

386
00:28:07.235 --> 00:28:24.465
I mean, this is very important. Yeah. So it's an honor it's an honor to have you here. I don't normally do fundraising, but since we're talking to Bitcoin people, I thought I mean, put your money into used to something if you don't wanna be politically active, you know, but at least you can support people. So I mean, they're using

387
00:28:25.245 --> 00:28:33.490
the Chinese government is using the money against your people. They're using the financial system against your people. Mhmm. They're using surveillance systems

388
00:28:33.790 --> 00:28:34.930
against your people.

389
00:28:35.630 --> 00:28:36.610
It's a multifaceted

390
00:28:38.034 --> 00:28:40.695
oppression strategy. Yes. It's state sponsored,

391
00:28:41.875 --> 00:28:42.375
systematic

392
00:28:43.075 --> 00:28:43.815
and widespread.

393
00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:45.950
Are

394
00:28:46.409 --> 00:28:48.029
there I don't know if you're

395
00:28:48.409 --> 00:28:49.870
willing to share them

396
00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:52.830
but are there techniques that are being used

397
00:28:54.065 --> 00:28:59.045
to circumvent this oppression? Is there anything that's actually being effective on the ground?

398
00:29:01.105 --> 00:29:01.605
So

399
00:29:02.270 --> 00:29:05.010
first of all, US has been very vocal

400
00:29:05.630 --> 00:29:10.290
on this issue, on the Uyghur issue, and they have been very supportive of the

401
00:29:10.995 --> 00:29:12.455
work of the Uber advocates

402
00:29:12.915 --> 00:29:13.735
and activists,

403
00:29:14.435 --> 00:29:15.555
and that is great.

404
00:29:16.355 --> 00:29:21.950
Recently, just a few months ago, the US government has passed the Forced Labour Prevention Act,

405
00:29:22.810 --> 00:29:25.790
which it's a law it's a labor law that

406
00:29:26.170 --> 00:29:26.670
prevents

407
00:29:26.970 --> 00:29:27.790
any goods

408
00:29:28.345 --> 00:29:29.325
from the Uyghur region

409
00:29:30.105 --> 00:29:34.925
from entering the US. It's basically has a robotable presumption that presumes presumes

410
00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:35.780
presumes,

411
00:29:36.080 --> 00:29:36.580
presumes,

412
00:29:37.080 --> 00:29:37.580
that

413
00:29:38.080 --> 00:29:41.620
presumes that any products that are made within the Uyghur region

414
00:29:42.295 --> 00:29:48.715
could be taint are tainted by forced labor unless they have strong and clear evidence to, to prove otherwise.

415
00:29:49.290 --> 00:29:51.950
So this is a really once it's enforced effectively,

416
00:29:52.330 --> 00:29:53.950
this will be one of the most

417
00:29:54.330 --> 00:29:55.470
effective tool

418
00:29:55.850 --> 00:29:58.995
to to to really tackle Force Saber and to really prevent

419
00:29:59.695 --> 00:30:02.995
Force SABR tinted goods from entering the US market.

420
00:30:04.335 --> 00:30:10.090
And what's most important thing is that it's great to have U. S. To pass such law,

421
00:30:11.510 --> 00:30:18.115
but does that really stop forced labour right there? No, because US is just one of the many many hundreds of countries.

422
00:30:18.815 --> 00:30:20.035
China can still

423
00:30:20.495 --> 00:30:20.995
redirect

424
00:30:21.615 --> 00:30:22.355
their shipments

425
00:30:23.059 --> 00:30:29.000
if they are blocked in the US. They go to Canada, they go to UK, they go to Europe, they can, they go to elsewhere.

426
00:30:31.005 --> 00:30:35.905
And that is why it's so crucial, it's so critical that all these companies, they actually,

427
00:30:36.285 --> 00:30:37.585
you know, apply

428
00:30:37.965 --> 00:30:39.345
the same single standard

429
00:30:39.830 --> 00:30:41.929
in all their market goods, not just

430
00:30:42.230 --> 00:30:49.130
to to to to to, not only in the US market, but all in mark all in all markets, including EU market, Australian

431
00:30:49.775 --> 00:30:55.075
market, Japanese market, Korean market, you know, all these markets. If they can have same unified standard

432
00:30:55.855 --> 00:30:59.154
and if governments if the companies don't do their job

433
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:00.019
well,

434
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:08.580
the government needs to step up and and to and also implement similar law like the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act.

435
00:31:10.054 --> 00:31:10.554
Otherwise,

436
00:31:10.855 --> 00:31:12.075
other countries, like,

437
00:31:12.375 --> 00:31:13.835
you know, European countries,

438
00:31:14.215 --> 00:31:14.715
UK,

439
00:31:15.015 --> 00:31:16.315
Australia, Japan,

440
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:20.660
it will end up becoming dumping ground for labor force labor tainted goods,

441
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.460
and I don't think any consumers

442
00:31:24.325 --> 00:31:33.304
want to see that. And I do believe that most consumers wouldn't want to purchase goods they knew were made or tainted by Uber Forks Labour. I don't think anyone would love that.

443
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:40.940
Before I got into labor force labor work, if I knew something was definitely made by child labor, I would be like, oh, no. No. No. No.

444
00:31:41.375 --> 00:31:51.679
And I believe if anyone have learned or educated enough on this issue they wouldn't want to do that either, because I believe we're all human beings, and we all have conscience, and we all,

445
00:31:52.059 --> 00:31:54.160
no matter if you know me or not,

446
00:31:55.580 --> 00:31:57.965
we're all people. So if I'm

447
00:31:58.605 --> 00:32:00.225
understanding correctly, basically,

448
00:32:00.765 --> 00:32:02.065
the first step is

449
00:32:02.445 --> 00:32:03.345
more transparency,

450
00:32:03.804 --> 00:32:08.360
understanding where these products are coming from Coming from. And then there's actions

451
00:32:08.980 --> 00:32:10.680
by consumers, by corporations,

452
00:32:11.140 --> 00:32:11.880
by governments,

453
00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:13.160
external governments.

454
00:32:13.460 --> 00:32:15.535
Yes. To making to to implement

455
00:32:16.075 --> 00:32:16.575
laws

456
00:32:17.195 --> 00:32:18.735
laws that actually work

457
00:32:19.595 --> 00:32:20.815
can prevent goods

458
00:32:21.275 --> 00:32:23.855
that are tainted by forced labor from entering the country

459
00:32:24.700 --> 00:32:25.200
Because

460
00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:28.240
only with that it can really shift

461
00:32:28.700 --> 00:32:31.840
the minds of the Chinese government, at least I believe so.

462
00:32:34.815 --> 00:32:43.075
So before we started filming, we talked briefly about about Bitcoin, and you said that you're you're not very familiar with Bitcoin,

463
00:32:44.780 --> 00:32:47.680
that you don't really wanna talk on Bitcoin specifically.

464
00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:51.120
I'm curious

465
00:32:51.855 --> 00:32:53.154
if on a high level

466
00:32:54.014 --> 00:32:55.715
an idea of a money

467
00:32:57.215 --> 00:33:01.620
that cannot be stopped by a government, that is not controlled by any corporation,

468
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:04.660
could be a powerful force of good

469
00:33:05.840 --> 00:33:08.260
for people that are oppressed around the world.

470
00:33:09.505 --> 00:33:10.005
So

471
00:33:10.385 --> 00:33:15.445
I don't know much about Bitcoin but I do know in order to operate Bitcoin you need computers. Right.

472
00:33:16.100 --> 00:33:19.080
And where are computers manufactured? Mostly in China.

473
00:33:19.620 --> 00:33:20.120
Exactly.

474
00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:21.559
So China, Taiwan.

475
00:33:21.860 --> 00:33:23.559
If you need to have

476
00:33:24.154 --> 00:33:25.455
huge space to

477
00:33:25.914 --> 00:33:47.315
to operate those computers to to to to to to Right. You know, manipulate those bitcoins, you know, currency thing. I don't know how exactly it works. Completely fine. You need a huge space. Right? Right. And, you know, Uyghur region Right. Is once the, the Uyghur region is one sixth of China's mass land that has only less than 20,000,000 of Uyghur population.

478
00:33:48.255 --> 00:33:49.075
So it's

479
00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:53.400
it's a huge space Right. That has huge factories

480
00:33:53.780 --> 00:33:54.840
Right. With

481
00:33:55.220 --> 00:33:55.720
perfect

482
00:33:56.020 --> 00:33:58.280
amount of workers right there that can

483
00:33:58.615 --> 00:33:59.835
manufacture computers

484
00:34:00.295 --> 00:34:02.635
because that lots of, major

485
00:34:03.015 --> 00:34:04.715
electronic brands Right.

486
00:34:05.095 --> 00:34:07.755
Are made in China, especially in the rural region.

487
00:34:08.710 --> 00:34:09.670
And that is why,

488
00:34:10.150 --> 00:34:16.170
bitcoin mining is also at risk of using forced labor. And also as I mentioned, surveillance is another issue. Right.

489
00:34:16.635 --> 00:34:19.295
There's no safe way for people to

490
00:34:19.915 --> 00:34:22.575
use their phones or their laptops to safely

491
00:34:23.035 --> 00:34:23.855
use Bitcoin.

492
00:34:24.349 --> 00:34:38.605
Right. And and and, you know, to to to to to to I don't know. What is the word? Operate the service or Yeah. To send, receive Bitcoin. To receive Bitcoin safely. And privately without Without privately without the Chinese government's interference or monitoring them because everything

493
00:34:39.145 --> 00:34:43.970
is censored in China and everything is monitored and surveilled in China.

494
00:34:44.270 --> 00:34:44.670
And,

495
00:34:45.630 --> 00:34:49.410
I was also mentioning this in in the talks that every few blocks

496
00:34:49.845 --> 00:34:52.904
in the Uyghur region you'll see checkpoints and police stations,

497
00:34:53.525 --> 00:34:54.025
and

498
00:34:54.885 --> 00:35:00.440
there you will see you will find police men sitting at a desk requiring you to deposit your phone

499
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:02.519
in order to download,

500
00:35:03.380 --> 00:35:05.640
your data and upload surveillance of,

501
00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:06.920
softwares.

502
00:35:07.265 --> 00:35:09.365
And there's this one of the software names,

503
00:35:09.785 --> 00:35:10.285
which

504
00:35:10.705 --> 00:35:13.685
the Chinese government used to it has access to

505
00:35:14.065 --> 00:35:14.565
everything

506
00:35:15.520 --> 00:35:21.460
possibly possible in your phone. It doesn't matter if it's encrypted or not. And having something that is encrypted

507
00:35:22.240 --> 00:35:26.745
can subject you to a prison or to to be sent to a camp. Unlock it. Exactly.

508
00:35:27.285 --> 00:35:35.660
Because why are you having encrypted things? Are you trying to hide something? Are you trying to plan something? Are you trying to attack the Chinese government? Are you trying to hide that you have extreme thoughts?

509
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:37.420
So the Chinese government will

510
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:38.460
automatically

511
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:49.714
assume that you are a criminal the moment you have anything that is close to being encrypted in your cell phone, including Signal, including having having an app like Signal, and which is just just a chatting

512
00:35:50.170 --> 00:35:50.570
chatting,

513
00:35:50.970 --> 00:35:51.470
software.

514
00:35:52.090 --> 00:35:55.870
It's where people use to call someone or talk to someone.

515
00:35:56.410 --> 00:35:58.190
But having that or WhatsApp

516
00:35:58.914 --> 00:35:59.474
are considered

517
00:35:59.875 --> 00:36:00.855
are being criminalized.

518
00:36:01.315 --> 00:36:03.494
Yeah. So I mean I wanna be clear here

519
00:36:04.115 --> 00:36:05.095
that I'm not

520
00:36:05.690 --> 00:36:09.310
I'm not looking for you to endorse Bitcoin as a concept.

521
00:36:09.610 --> 00:36:10.110
Okay?

522
00:36:10.570 --> 00:36:15.150
I'm not telling you you should buy Bitcoin. I'm not asking you to tell other people they should buy Bitcoin.

523
00:36:16.145 --> 00:36:21.365
This issue is an issue that is very close to my heart in terms of digital privacy,

524
00:36:21.665 --> 00:36:36.555
digital security. It's something I spend a lot of time on. I do workshops with people educating them on it. In America, people take it for granted. Mhmm. They they say, I trust my government. They're not gonna spy on me. They're not gonna take my money.

525
00:36:37.495 --> 00:36:39.675
They do both of those things, but most Americans

526
00:36:40.349 --> 00:36:43.010
just don't consider that a a risk, period.

527
00:36:44.750 --> 00:36:49.490
So one of my goals, there is there is this concept called open source software.

528
00:36:50.105 --> 00:36:55.805
I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the concept of open source software? So, you have open source software and you have closed source software.

529
00:36:56.105 --> 00:36:58.045
When you use your iPhone, for instance,

530
00:36:58.470 --> 00:37:00.089
the code that runs on the iPhone

531
00:37:00.470 --> 00:37:06.410
is owned by Apple. Apple knows the code. We don't know what is running, what that code is doing. They tell us

532
00:37:07.454 --> 00:37:10.595
you're making a phone call or you're doing this, but behind the scenes,

533
00:37:11.214 --> 00:37:12.515
anything could be happening.

534
00:37:13.135 --> 00:37:16.110
And governments like China take advantage of this

535
00:37:16.590 --> 00:37:21.090
closed source code because they can be spying on you doing all this other stuff

536
00:37:21.470 --> 00:37:30.295
and there's no way for a researcher to look at the code or a user to look at the code and know that that spying is happening and how that's happening. With open source software,

537
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:33.520
it's software that is freely available for everyone.

538
00:37:34.060 --> 00:37:47.410
Not free as in cost but free at it's also free as in cost but free as in freedom. So you can take that code, coders can change the code, they can update it, they can improve it, they can ship it out, anyone can inspect it.

539
00:37:49.970 --> 00:38:00.005
This is extremely powerful. This code is viral. It's not a single person is in control of it. Not a single corporation is in control of it. So it's very difficult for governments to stop its distribution from happening.

540
00:38:00.785 --> 00:38:04.885
So Bitcoin is open source code, but also signal is open source.

541
00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:07.600
So, like, the Chinese government

542
00:38:08.380 --> 00:38:12.560
can can put people in jail for using signal Mhmm. But

543
00:38:13.395 --> 00:38:26.830
most likely, they're not able to actually compromise signal without compromising the individual. They go for the individual because that's the weak point. But if you're using WeChat, they don't have to do that because they can just read everything. Right? So that's the difference between open source and closed source software.

544
00:38:27.850 --> 00:38:28.830
So my belief

545
00:38:29.450 --> 00:38:29.950
is

546
00:38:30.595 --> 00:38:32.135
that through technological

547
00:38:32.435 --> 00:38:32.935
improvements

548
00:38:33.235 --> 00:38:35.015
in open source software communities

549
00:38:35.315 --> 00:38:36.215
around the world,

550
00:38:36.835 --> 00:38:38.775
we can provide people the tools

551
00:38:39.310 --> 00:38:42.050
in different oppressed regions, including your own,

552
00:38:42.590 --> 00:38:44.770
that allow them to have

553
00:38:45.070 --> 00:38:45.570
defensive

554
00:38:46.270 --> 00:38:46.770
improvements

555
00:38:47.425 --> 00:38:49.445
over who's ever oppressing them.

556
00:38:49.905 --> 00:38:55.765
I think Bitcoin is one tool in that arsenal in terms of money. I think encryption is one for speech.

557
00:38:57.440 --> 00:38:57.940
So

558
00:38:58.640 --> 00:39:07.505
they kind of go hand in hand. As far as the forced labor, I mean, no one wants I I I don't think any Bitcoiners want forced labor to be involved in Bitcoin.

559
00:39:08.125 --> 00:39:09.425
I will say that

560
00:39:09.885 --> 00:39:10.705
the the,

561
00:39:11.645 --> 00:39:13.985
China was, you know, one of the

562
00:39:15.210 --> 00:39:22.030
the leaders in mining for a long time, and the Chinese government got scared of it. And they they banned it,

563
00:39:22.730 --> 00:39:23.470
in 2020.

564
00:39:24.170 --> 00:39:26.974
So they banned in 2020. A lot of the miners left.

565
00:39:28.474 --> 00:39:31.135
Some of them went to Kazakhstan. A lot of them came to America.

566
00:39:32.059 --> 00:39:34.880
Some went to Russia. They moved around the world.

567
00:39:35.339 --> 00:39:37.520
The manufacturing is still happening in China.

568
00:39:38.220 --> 00:39:42.875
I would not be surprised if it's using forced labor. I think it's probably just safe to assume that it is.

569
00:39:43.335 --> 00:39:49.050
I think it's safe to assume that our phones are are probably using some level of forced labor. Probably, you can,

570
00:39:49.450 --> 00:39:53.390
would would I be correct in saying you can most things that Americans are buying,

571
00:39:53.770 --> 00:39:54.270
there's

572
00:39:54.810 --> 00:40:01.975
different pieces of forced labor that are Yes. Mixed into them, like, even stuff like sneakers and stuff like that. Right? There's no sector that is

573
00:40:02.595 --> 00:40:03.095
completely

574
00:40:03.475 --> 00:40:08.740
free of the risk of being tainted, but we were we were forced labor. Yeah.

575
00:40:09.200 --> 00:40:10.420
But if we have

576
00:40:12.640 --> 00:40:23.525
for better or for worse, Bitcoin may be one of the unique ones that doesn't have a forced labor connection in 5 years because I believe the Chinese government finds it such a threat

577
00:40:23.850 --> 00:40:29.310
that they will stop allowing manufacturers to manufacture there. We already see companies like Intel.

578
00:40:29.770 --> 00:40:32.910
They don't make chips for iPhones and stuff in America,

579
00:40:33.224 --> 00:40:48.390
but they're starting to make them for Bitcoin because they know the Chinese are still gonna allow them to make iPhones over there, but they're afraid that they're not gonna allow them to make Bitcoin mining chips. Intel is actually one of the companies that was listed that they had links to Uber Force. That does not surprise me at all.

580
00:40:49.005 --> 00:40:54.225
Yeah. I mean, that absolutely does not surprise. All the electronics companies specifically are probably really bad.

581
00:40:55.730 --> 00:41:01.030
But, yeah, anyway, that is I just wanted to explain to you where I'm coming from. Yeah. I definitely understand and I

582
00:41:01.330 --> 00:41:01.990
I honestly

583
00:41:02.770 --> 00:41:05.109
wish I knew more about how Bitcoin

584
00:41:05.475 --> 00:41:06.215
works too.

585
00:41:06.995 --> 00:41:10.695
And now I'm even like I know how shopping works and I love fashion right.

586
00:41:10.995 --> 00:41:17.039
I know I know about it very well and I'm scared to shop and I'm scared to, even though I know

587
00:41:17.500 --> 00:41:23.599
already more than an more than a lot of people already does. And I still don't know the the thing that I'm touching

588
00:41:23.965 --> 00:41:31.265
in the market or anything, if it's made by forced labor. I know some of the brands, which one I should specifically avoid, which of them that I should be avoiding,

589
00:41:31.950 --> 00:41:37.970
But there are also some of them are not on my list yet. And I know I it's hard very hard to avoid.

590
00:41:38.510 --> 00:41:38.910
That's why,

591
00:41:39.985 --> 00:41:42.805
I do believe one day with the technologies

592
00:41:43.505 --> 00:41:48.550
development and with governments around the world with their contribution, with their, you know, interfering

593
00:41:49.090 --> 00:41:49.910
in this matter.

594
00:41:50.530 --> 00:41:51.750
I'm sure one day,

595
00:41:52.130 --> 00:42:00.285
you know, a lot of the sectors or a lot of the products we can one day can confidently say, oh, yes, it's free of forced labor. And I hope that day comes soon.

596
00:42:00.744 --> 00:42:02.285
I just think at this point,

597
00:42:03.224 --> 00:42:06.450
I am not confident yet with anything in this room,

598
00:42:07.470 --> 00:42:12.850
including the camera that are Right. That is filming us. This is a room full of forced labor. Yes. Yes. And

599
00:42:13.165 --> 00:42:28.589
I was also saying, that on the stage today when I was speaking, I was, like, including the camera in this room or the alphas could be tainted by the The alphas. The lights. Yes. The TV, the the cabinet, the trash can, the the plastic bags or or toilet paper even could be made by cuts and pulp

600
00:42:28.945 --> 00:42:31.825
that is transport trans transported into,

601
00:42:32.225 --> 00:42:36.165
imported into the country. So, it's it's definitely going to take

602
00:42:36.550 --> 00:42:37.690
time and effort.

603
00:42:38.070 --> 00:42:40.890
But not only me or you, but by everyone.

604
00:42:41.270 --> 00:42:55.115
Yeah. I think one one main lesson that should be taken away from this conversation is that we can all do better and that we all must do better. And we can all work together on it. And we have to be humble enough to understand that we don't really know everything. Yes. And we can always

605
00:42:55.490 --> 00:42:56.310
be more

606
00:42:56.850 --> 00:42:59.510
aware of the situation and and try and improve

607
00:42:59.890 --> 00:43:02.790
from from a first principle basis from from yourself

608
00:43:03.865 --> 00:43:05.885
to others. So you have family

609
00:43:06.744 --> 00:43:08.204
in you have family in China.

610
00:43:08.984 --> 00:43:10.605
Tell us a little bit about that.

611
00:43:11.224 --> 00:43:11.724
Actually,

612
00:43:12.140 --> 00:43:19.200
besides me, everyone else are still in China. They're stuck. They cannot leave. They cannot have their passports. They cannot use their passports.

613
00:43:20.795 --> 00:43:24.975
Several of my family members have either been to the reeducation camp

614
00:43:25.355 --> 00:43:26.895
or are, have been,

615
00:43:27.410 --> 00:43:30.309
you know, locked up in prison, or are still in prison.

616
00:43:30.690 --> 00:43:32.069
For example, my dad,

617
00:43:32.530 --> 00:43:37.905
he's now actually serving a life sentence in prison under separatism related charges.

618
00:43:38.765 --> 00:43:41.025
My father was a well known economist,

619
00:43:41.405 --> 00:43:42.704
and he was also

620
00:43:43.085 --> 00:43:44.145
an outspoken

621
00:43:44.924 --> 00:43:48.370
advocate for Uyghur rights, and he has been calling on,

622
00:43:50.030 --> 00:43:56.335
equal rights for the Uyghur people and peaceful coexistence of the Uyghurs and Han Chinese, and calling out that there's discrimination

623
00:43:56.875 --> 00:44:03.055
going on and in the job markets and education system, and we need to build infrastructure in the Uyghur region. He has been calling

624
00:44:03.410 --> 00:44:09.110
calling out the flaws, you know, within the policies in the Weibo region and the Chinese government claim

625
00:44:09.490 --> 00:44:10.230
that as

626
00:44:10.530 --> 00:44:12.310
him inciting separatism.

627
00:44:13.234 --> 00:44:17.895
So now he's serving a life sentence. And when was he arrested? He was arrested in 2014.

628
00:44:19.795 --> 00:44:24.680
I none of us have heard a word from him him since 2017.

629
00:44:25.299 --> 00:44:34.105
They don't give you any contact. Family members have not been able to visit him. We don't know if he's still in the same prison or if he has been transferred to another.

630
00:44:37.045 --> 00:44:46.809
The last time we heard, his condition was not great. He lost over Â£40 within a couple of months because When did you hear that? That was the beginning when he was first arrested

631
00:44:47.109 --> 00:44:51.215
and just within few months he passed on. So they don't even give you any kind of status or anything? No.

632
00:44:51.515 --> 00:44:53.915
We don't know anything happened. They don't

633
00:44:54.555 --> 00:45:01.370
When we tried to call the my family members tried to call the police, they hung up our phone, and not refusing to comment.

634
00:45:02.550 --> 00:45:03.050
But

635
00:45:03.435 --> 00:45:08.015
the people at the UN, the representative at the UN from the Chinese side had

636
00:45:08.635 --> 00:45:10.655
had been saying that my father is leaving,

637
00:45:10.970 --> 00:45:14.510
you know, grades in the prison having all his rights

638
00:45:14.810 --> 00:45:15.310
granted,

639
00:45:15.770 --> 00:45:23.904
which is completely not true. And besides my father, my cousin is also locked up in a prison. She's, she was sentenced to 10 years.

640
00:45:24.444 --> 00:45:26.464
Remember the checkpoints I mentioned earlier?

641
00:45:27.164 --> 00:45:31.170
She was actually stopped at one of those checkpoints, which the police,

642
00:45:31.470 --> 00:45:31.970
you

643
00:45:33.230 --> 00:45:40.785
know, was there to ask anyone to deposit their phones. She was stopped at one of those. She refused to turn in her cell phone. She was arrested,

644
00:45:41.724 --> 00:45:49.130
and for the non compliance, and for having a photo of my father in her cell phone, That's why she was sentenced to 10 years, and she was in her twenties.

645
00:45:49.830 --> 00:45:52.090
And now she's spending the most beautiful

646
00:45:54.575 --> 00:45:59.235
years of her youth or of her life in in a Chinese prison. And

647
00:45:59.535 --> 00:46:00.835
if it's normal

648
00:46:01.780 --> 00:46:06.440
in normal culture time or in normal time she was a nurse she would have been married

649
00:46:06.820 --> 00:46:12.975
you know shopping with her friends. They took her life. Getting flowers and now she's now stuck in a prison

650
00:46:14.155 --> 00:46:16.095
and maybe working in a factory

651
00:46:16.555 --> 00:46:17.055
or

652
00:46:17.435 --> 00:46:24.450
Have you been able to contact her either? Not me. No. I'm the only person who is in the US and I'm too afraid to go back to China.

653
00:46:24.830 --> 00:46:31.935
I'm pretty sure the Chinese government wouldn't want me to go back and they have been trying to tell my family saying your daughter, your your your family,

654
00:46:32.315 --> 00:46:40.319
she's free to come back. Let her come back. She will be fine. She'll be fine. Of course. Of course. I believe you. Of course, I will be fine if I go back. I'm being sarcastic.

655
00:46:40.619 --> 00:46:46.960
But they haven't threatened your other family members for your work? Or They make them to talk to me to let me shut up.

656
00:46:47.355 --> 00:46:50.174
They're like we're paying attention. We know what she's doing. Yes.

657
00:46:50.555 --> 00:46:58.930
Yes. I am very careful with what I say. I say nothing beside the truth. I say nothing besides the things that I've done research on. Right.

658
00:46:59.630 --> 00:47:00.130
But

659
00:47:01.150 --> 00:47:09.145
at the same time, that is also considered a threat to the Chinese government because according well, from with for them, I am bringing shame

660
00:47:10.540 --> 00:47:11.520
to their names.

661
00:47:13.820 --> 00:47:14.320
I'm

662
00:47:16.620 --> 00:47:18.705
so sorry to hear that. Thank you.

663
00:47:19.085 --> 00:47:21.425
It's not only happening to 1 family

664
00:47:21.805 --> 00:47:23.425
or 2 families. It's

665
00:47:23.805 --> 00:47:25.825
it's happening to thousands of families,

666
00:47:26.170 --> 00:47:26.670
thousands,

667
00:47:26.970 --> 00:47:34.750
hundreds of thousands of families out there. But oftentimes people would just consider it as numbers. When they hear, oh, millions of people are

668
00:47:35.125 --> 00:47:42.105
arrested, they just, oh, they have a very abstract idea. Oh, millions of people own numbers, but these are not just numbers. These are

669
00:47:43.140 --> 00:47:45.720
human beings, and they have flesh,

670
00:47:46.020 --> 00:47:54.855
and blood, and they have family members. They have their own sisters. They have their own daughters. They have their own brothers, uncles, grandma, grandpa.

671
00:47:55.635 --> 00:47:57.815
They have their loved ones or friends.

672
00:47:59.315 --> 00:48:00.535
All of them do.

673
00:48:01.180 --> 00:48:02.160
All of them.

674
00:48:03.339 --> 00:48:07.520
And a lot of them, probably their entire family is locked up in different location.

675
00:48:08.695 --> 00:48:12.315
Someone I know have over 70 family relatives are locked up.

676
00:48:13.575 --> 00:48:15.915
Seventy. Imagine that number. It's

677
00:48:16.290 --> 00:48:21.510
it's a it's a number of of of a floor of this hotel room, I guess.

678
00:48:21.970 --> 00:48:26.365
Like, the guests All locked up. Yep. We're all locked up. No communication.

679
00:48:28.585 --> 00:48:31.545
No status. I have no idea what's happening. It's very

680
00:48:32.590 --> 00:48:36.690
I was also mentioning this earlier today that it is a normality

681
00:48:37.070 --> 00:48:37.890
now that

682
00:48:38.270 --> 00:48:40.930
having our rights taken away from us.

683
00:48:41.454 --> 00:48:42.595
The Chinese government

684
00:48:43.535 --> 00:48:53.260
treat us not as human beings. A lot of times, people would describe, oh, the Uyghurs are treated as secondary citizens in the Uyghur region. That is a very understatement.

685
00:48:53.560 --> 00:48:55.260
We're not only treated as

686
00:48:56.440 --> 00:48:59.075
secondary citizens, we're not even treated as human

687
00:48:59.635 --> 00:49:03.095
beings. They consider us as beasts, as animals,

688
00:49:03.795 --> 00:49:05.575
sometimes even less than animals.

689
00:49:09.450 --> 00:49:12.170
I can't I have nothing to respond to that. That's I've

690
00:49:14.535 --> 00:49:15.835
it's absolutely horrible.

691
00:49:16.215 --> 00:49:17.015
I hope we

692
00:49:18.215 --> 00:49:25.970
I I I hope I hope we can help. I hope people can help. Thank you. So the people, you know, listening to our conversation today,

693
00:49:27.390 --> 00:49:32.635
what are their best steps to to to improve their situation and to help your people?

694
00:49:33.015 --> 00:49:33.515
So

695
00:49:34.135 --> 00:49:38.395
the most crucial and the initial step should be educating

696
00:49:38.839 --> 00:49:39.339
themselves

697
00:49:39.640 --> 00:49:40.619
on this issue

698
00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:41.500
because

699
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:45.660
people can't take action without knowing what's happening so they should first

700
00:49:46.105 --> 00:49:51.085
educate themselves on this. They should be informed, and after themselves are being that they are informed

701
00:49:51.464 --> 00:49:53.805
they need to share it with more people,

702
00:49:54.530 --> 00:49:58.790
their friends, their colleagues, their students, or their teachers, their

703
00:49:59.090 --> 00:50:08.985
their loved ones, for getting as many people as possible to learn about this, because you never know which audience you're gonna reach reach one day that could possibly make a shift

704
00:50:09.365 --> 00:50:10.265
in the situation.

705
00:50:10.805 --> 00:50:11.305
And

706
00:50:11.640 --> 00:50:16.619
and after that is writing to their government officials, so whoever is listening to this

707
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:19.180
talk to talk to your government officials.

708
00:50:19.585 --> 00:50:25.445
It doesn't matter which country you come from. Interact to them and make them propose laws that actually work.

709
00:50:26.225 --> 00:50:29.410
And then after that, write to the companies that they care about.

710
00:50:29.809 --> 00:50:31.349
You know, influence the companies

711
00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:37.349
that they shop from the most, whether it's, you know, Zara or Target or Walmart or

712
00:50:37.650 --> 00:50:38.150
Uniqlo

713
00:50:38.450 --> 00:50:38.950
or

714
00:50:39.555 --> 00:50:45.415
Hugo Boss, you know, all these brands have been known or reported that they have links to Uber Forged labor.

715
00:50:46.115 --> 00:50:46.615
Maybe,

716
00:50:48.470 --> 00:50:52.410
write to them and influence them, write to their CEOs, their sustainability

717
00:50:53.190 --> 00:50:53.690
department,

718
00:50:54.309 --> 00:50:54.809
directors,

719
00:50:55.589 --> 00:51:23.405
write to their campaign team, their media team, you know, it's a one single single Google search, and I'm sure Bitcoin people are better at computers than I am. Maybe that's a stereotype, but I'm very horrible at using technology. Very, very horrible, and I'm pretty sure most people are better than me. So if I can find something on Google within 5 minutes, you can do it probably within 3 minutes or 1 minute. So there's not a specific resource? It's there are. I will get to that really quick. There's also, for example, Humorize Foundation recently

720
00:51:23.705 --> 00:51:25.165
had this plug in called,

721
00:51:25.545 --> 00:51:27.165
We Were Forced April Brand Checker,

722
00:51:27.610 --> 00:51:28.890
which, that is,

723
00:51:29.370 --> 00:51:35.790
completely aligned with the brand list on the website of the Coalition to end Force Saber in the Uber region.

724
00:51:36.994 --> 00:51:47.210
So in order for you to know, have a little sense of what are some of the brands are known to be complicit in Uyghur Forced Labor or who have links to Uyghur Forced Labor,

725
00:51:48.630 --> 00:51:55.050
you can download this plugin to your laptop, to your desktop. It doesn't work on the phone, but it works on Google Chrome.

726
00:51:55.535 --> 00:51:56.835
And once you,

727
00:51:57.615 --> 00:51:58.675
add the plug in,

728
00:51:59.695 --> 00:52:03.475
you go to if you love online shopping, let's say you go to the homepage of Zara.

729
00:52:04.120 --> 00:52:19.089
There will be a banner pop up saying, oh, this product might be tainted by Uber Forged Labor. Do you still want to shop from it? And if you click yes, then okay. Yes. You will keep shopping from them. If you click no, it will redirect you to the page. It's a,

730
00:52:19.390 --> 00:52:26.450
it's a page which introduce you what the Force Saver is about, you know, what are some of the pages that you should visit.

731
00:52:26.924 --> 00:52:27.585
And then,

732
00:52:28.045 --> 00:52:30.944
beside the brand checker, you can also visit our website

733
00:52:31.325 --> 00:52:32.224
at the Coalition

734
00:52:32.684 --> 00:52:33.505
to End

735
00:52:33.940 --> 00:52:40.760
WeWork Forced Labour. The Labour is spelled the British way, l a b o u r, so please don't get that wrong.

736
00:52:41.475 --> 00:52:47.655
With that, you will be able to learn more about what's happening in the river region on the forced forced labor matter.

737
00:52:48.230 --> 00:52:52.810
We have selected articles, you know, in detailed, you know, including reports,

738
00:52:53.590 --> 00:52:56.010
you know, in one of the news section,

739
00:52:56.484 --> 00:52:59.224
and we also have a section called related actions,

740
00:52:59.765 --> 00:53:04.265
which can which you will find all the possible actions that you will be able to take

741
00:53:04.640 --> 00:53:07.859
from petitions to campaigns, to movies, to fashion

742
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:15.765
show. We were, not only we were forced to, but on, you know, general we were cause you will be able to And that's the coalition

743
00:53:16.065 --> 00:53:20.484
to end forced labor with the u dot com. So, the coalition

744
00:53:21.825 --> 00:53:22.290
that's

745
00:53:23.970 --> 00:53:24.470
www.and,

746
00:53:24.925 --> 00:53:25.425
e

747
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:26.790
n d, uyghur,

748
00:53:30.184 --> 00:53:30.684
forced,

749
00:53:31.545 --> 00:53:32.045
forcedlaborlabor.org.

750
00:53:36.265 --> 00:53:37.565
And we were forcedlabor.org.

751
00:53:38.849 --> 00:53:40.150
That's the website address.

752
00:53:40.530 --> 00:53:43.750
I just wanna thank you for joining us. It's it is honestly

753
00:53:44.050 --> 00:53:44.710
it is

754
00:53:46.050 --> 00:53:47.349
you're extremely brave,

755
00:53:50.065 --> 00:53:53.925
and you know I've been I've been working with HRF for a few years and

756
00:53:54.545 --> 00:53:55.045
really

757
00:53:56.260 --> 00:53:57.640
it's it just

758
00:53:58.820 --> 00:54:05.640
people like yourself who stand up really reinforce my position that there's there's nothing more important in this world

759
00:54:06.025 --> 00:54:08.765
than to to fight for human liberty and human freedom,

760
00:54:09.145 --> 00:54:12.605
and that we can't take that for granted. It needs to be

761
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:15.140
defended, and it needs to be,

762
00:54:16.640 --> 00:54:20.745
you you need to push forward. You need to fight for it. Thank you. And,

763
00:54:21.225 --> 00:54:38.905
I have to say that I am actually not as brave as most people say that oh, they always tell me oh, you're so brave. I'm actually not that brave, and I am afraid all the time. I'm always scared a lot of times I can't even fall asleep, I wake up at 4 AM in the morning, or kind of sleep until 4 AM. I'm actually always scared, but

764
00:54:39.365 --> 00:54:46.265
I just really really care about my family, and I had to do something about it. And my family does not only involve my parents, my my cousins.

765
00:54:46.590 --> 00:54:50.770
My family is just a bigger it's just there are more members, which is the my Uyghur,

766
00:54:51.150 --> 00:54:54.690
all the Uyghur brothers and sisters, and, you know, all these who are

767
00:54:55.285 --> 00:54:55.785
their

768
00:54:56.165 --> 00:54:57.945
lives, innocent lives are

769
00:54:58.805 --> 00:55:00.345
are, you know, are trapped.

770
00:55:00.965 --> 00:55:01.465
So,

771
00:55:02.330 --> 00:55:05.070
yeah, I just had to do something to save my family.

772
00:55:05.770 --> 00:55:08.750
Yeah. And no matter how scared I am, I just have to keep going.