NOSTRIGA: JACK DORSEY X ODELL

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 8/26/2024 10:57:29 AM
Duration: 3237.161
Channels: 1

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Exactly when we say Odell

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and Jack.

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Thank you, David.

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Thank you.

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Do you own any other shirts?

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No.

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Just that one? Just this one.

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I think most people in this room

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know this. Maybe people on the livestream do not know this,

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but Jack personally pays for these Noster events. This is the third one,

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that a team of volunteers

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has

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has put on, first in Costa Rica, then Tokyo, now here in Latvia and Riga.

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It's incredibly important,

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for you and the and the team of volunteers to try and do it as global as possible.

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But I just can we just give Jack a huge round of applause for

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It's it's kind of ridiculous. Like, that's an insane thing to do is throw free conferences around the world.

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I've never I've never been to a

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a a packed free conference before. Matt, that's the guest over lunch that we charge for the next one. I did. I did. And if we do,

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blame him. Wait. Wait. There there's some there's some nuance here. There's some nuance here.

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I said charge $21

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in Bitcoin,

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and every every

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every,

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guest here today got a payable Bitcoin,

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NFC card where they can pay with Bitcoin at the bar or the restaurants at the food trucks outside that had $21 on it. So I suggested that you pay $21

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and then you get $42

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if you show up on the card. So there's some proof of work. So actually,

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it's even better than free because you actually make money to come to the event. So, I mean, you gotta be clear here.

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What's what's the goal? But yeah, I I do think, I I wanna another round of applause for all of our volunteers because they really do all the work and come up with all the creativity.

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Apologies in advance. I'm getting over bronchitis. So if I,

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I,

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my voice is a little bit weak.

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But I do think it's really important that,

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we foster this community and we foster the development

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through meeting in person.

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And,

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we did start in Costa Rica, we went to

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another continent,

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chose Tokyo,

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another continent chose Europe and will continue to bounce around the world,

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every single year and hopefully it continues to grow. But while our attendance hasn't grown a lot,

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the depth of the conversation and the presentation has has really

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been impressive. And I think just getting together in person like this really accelerates what we're able to do,

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and I think it's complementary to a bunch of the work Matt and others are doing in terms of funding development, funding education,

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funding content. All these things add up and all these parts play

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a significant role in compounding

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to building this this thing that we love and the thing that we know will impact so many people in the positive,

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not just yet, but over time, absolutely.

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Love it.

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I mean, so while we're on that topic,

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why do you focus so much time, energy,

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money on Noster?

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It's

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the only reason

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I'm in a position that I can even

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consider doing something like this is because

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of the grace of

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the open source developers

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on the Internet

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and the way that the Internet was built.

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For those of you who are as old as me, you remember Usenet,

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you remember the early days of Linux, you remember Gopher, you remember the early days of the web, you remember the principles,

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but most importantly, you remember that you could read the code.

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And

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that was incredible. And the fact that all these APIs were open, the fact that, Ravel brought this up,

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that TCPIP,

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the very foundation of the Internet, was considered the ugly,

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wrong choice

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and people made it work and every single interaction we have today in the world every single person in the world has an interaction today where they touch that work

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and they touch this concept of the bizarre model

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instead of the cathedral.

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And we have so many companies and we have so many

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organizations

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trying to build this cathedral model

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and control it

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and take more and more so that they can profit more and more,

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and we need to have an opinionated

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and different approach that we build in parallel,

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for when those things fail, which they will, we have some, we have some place that people can go to.

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And and that's what gives me a lot of

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patience around

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what everyone is building here is because, like,

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our only goal here is just to build in parallel and to make sure that we continue to build something that

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when people need it, it's available.

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And I think that's really important that we always have those options available to us. The same is true for Bitcoin.

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There's a lot of talk about how censorship resistance is important and a lot of talk about censoring and a lot of talk about

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freedom of speech

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and all these things, but no one has proven that they actually want that.

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If they actually wanted it, they'd be using it every single day.

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And it's a lot of

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it it's really good marketing right now.

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But if you actually want to see if people believe in it believe it in their soul, they're going to act and they're going to do something about it. And we're just not seeing that right now. But

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when they are ready

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and when they or when they're forced to be ready

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or

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when their mind is finally open to

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take another action and sacrifice the

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convenience they have right now and the network they have right now,

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that this place is ready and that Bitcoin is ready and it's

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up to the task of supporting billions and billions of people.

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So it's a long haul and it's something that,

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you know, we may not even see the entire fruits in our lifetime. I think we will.

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But the fact that we have this collection of people working on this, and working on these ideals,

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and thinking about the long term,

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and suffering through the small numbers

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right now, I think is really important, really unique, and,

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I don't know. I I I love it. I love I love being part of this community.

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Matt

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Matt is very big on

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clapping

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and getting energy back from the audience, so I don't care.

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So any after any time he stops talking, if you could just give him some energy back and I'm good. No. We we clap after Jack. No. No. No. No. No. No.

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Let's,

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we have a packed house here. We have short time, so let's get in it.

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You're the cofounder of Twitter, obviously.

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Now it's x. Elon brought it, took it private. Now it's x. It has about a half a 1000000000 users, 500,000,000

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users.

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5 years,

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does Noster have more users than X?

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Yeah. Great question.

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It's not about the answers. It's the questions you ask, and that's how we're judging this this, this conversation.

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It's finding the right question. Right?

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In 5 years, I I don't I

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I don't know.

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I certainly hope so. There's no

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the thing about Noster and and Bitcoin is there's no fundamental

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reason

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why it can't have all of the earth's information,

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like, have the largest corpus of information,

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and I think we want that. I think we should push for that. There's a lot of conversation today about information overload.

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I think we want and we benefit from more and more information.

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The other side of that

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is we need the right ability to organize it,

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and that's where algorithms do come in. And if we have agency around choosing whether to use those algorithms or not being able to build them, then we have a perfect union.

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But

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there's no reason there's nothing stopping people from just putting everything on this on this platform, and there's no reason why we shouldn't welcome

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it. Because if we do have the largest corpus of information,

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people can build really amazing things on top of it.

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And

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I think from that from that degree, maybe the number of users is the wrong metric.

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It's how much

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how how useful

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it is, and how useful the information is, and how much is actually how much is actually there. What is the density?

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Because it's not just going to be humans

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utilizing this. It's not just gonna be humans connecting on all this.

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I know they're a bad word right now, but, like, bots are our future

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and they will be a valuable part of our future

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if we have agency over them, if we can help control them, if we can choose to use them or not, and they're transparent.

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And there's no better platform to start working with Agenik

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AI and bots than Nostra because of the openness, because of

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the transparency,

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because that you don't have to ask for permission for anything.

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So we have a playground that these new systems can actually intersect on,

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and I think we should embrace that.

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And we we should our strongest

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our strongest message right now,

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and this was said by,

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I don't I don't know what presentation it was, but there was a slide

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with a number of developers,

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Blue Sky and Twitter and who's the was that Pablo? Pablo and Pablo. Young.

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That's our strongest message right now is is the strength and the size of our developer network, and that is unbounded

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in terms of growth.

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And that metric, I think, is unique and and super important.

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We're gonna have more users than than x in 5 years.

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Very long winded non answer from Jack.

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I think I think you believe it. I think you just feel a little bit pigeonholed.

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No. Not at all. Like, I'm just being realistic. I don't I like, I

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sure. X is cutting down on on bots and and all these things. I don't think we're we don't have that constraint because we don't have that problem.

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Fair enough. And I I think we should embrace that. So along that metric,

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having more programs and having more automations

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and having more experiments,

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Rob will remember this. This was this is what made Twitter super weird and super interesting back in the day, is people were hooking real things to it, and devices and bots and Tamagotchis and all these things.

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And it was fun because it

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it was like humans you could talk to, but also like things that were, like, suddenly

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had emotion and were were alive, and that was so early. This was over 18 years ago.

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But all that technology behind all that stuff right now with everything we're seeing with AI

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and agenics systems, it's really mature now. It's actually useful. It's actually useful, and it's providing real value, and I think it's a big, big part

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of of our future. So if if Noster can be one of those those

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protocols in those playgrounds, I could there's there's no question that we have more, but how are you measuring that? Okay. So you're you're you're saying that you expect Noster to be more useful than x in 5 years?

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I would I would say it's already more usable because,

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people don't have to ask

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permission to change it. So they can make it usable for themselves. They can make it usable for people like them.

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And

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and as you saw with the ditto presentation

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from Alex,

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people can come to it and build their own custom

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viewport and their own custom experience that fits them, and everything they do in that small little world benefits the entire world and the entire protocol of of Nasser and ends up benefiting everyone.

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More energy. After after he asked the questions only.

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They were doing the right thing. Okay. So so on Tuesday,

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in a court case,

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with Elon and x from his x employees,

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the investor

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shareholder cap table of x, got released,

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in that court proceeding,

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and in there, they listed the different investors

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that took

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x private.

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It includes a who's who, like a p. Diddy connected VC fund, a 16z,

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the Saudis,

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a Palantir connected VC

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Fund, and you.

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And so my question for you is,

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how do you feel about the direction that Elon has taken the platform

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that you built?

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I think that was actually sincere applause for you.

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I made a decision to roll over my shares,

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so I had 3% of the company.

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Elon bought it. I kept all my shares. I didn't sell any. I didn't have this giant payday,

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as a company was sold.

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I did so because,

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1st and foremost, I believe in the idea of Twitter,

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much more than the man any particular manifestation.

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The manifestation

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of the idea that it believed in the least, the absolute least, was a public company.

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We were a public company that was reliant upon 1 business model solely

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in a singular fashion, and that was the advertising model.

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And the reason why we had an advertising model is because our peers did.

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We wanted to go public, and that was the fastest path to do so. And there was no ability to send value across the Internet. There was no micropayments on the Internet, as Jack talked about. We've actually been talking about it for 40 years,

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if not more.

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And Zaps is the biggest

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living, scaling,

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experimentation

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of that idea. Thank you, Will, and thank you for the entire Bitcoin ecosystem for making that possible.

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So

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taking it private,

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I'm so grateful that someone was able to do that.

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I'm so grateful that,

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it was taken private by an entrepreneur and a technologist instead of

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a private equity firm.

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It would be dead at this point. It would be dead if it was still a public company

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because there's no hope of competing with,

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the likes of

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Facebook and Google.

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And

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it allows the space to do some

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experimentation and do a lot of different things, and Elon is testing that.

238
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I don't always agree with the methods,

239
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or the sequence,

240
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the reaction

241
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to perceived threats, which I don't see as threats at all,

242
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but I appreciate that it's covered and protected,

243
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and

244
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they can experiment.

245
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The biggest

246
00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:07.080
disagreement I have

247
00:16:08.420 --> 00:16:12.520
with the way it's run and the potential for it in the future

248
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is before I left, we, you know, we wanted to build a protocol.

249
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Right now Twitter owns the protocol.

250
00:16:20.025 --> 00:16:23.085
It owns a presentation layer and it owns the distribution.

251
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All 3. It puts a ton of pressure for whoever is running that company to make decisions around what's on the on the service and what's not.

252
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Having a protocol

253
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where the content,

254
00:16:37.130 --> 00:16:37.630
lives

255
00:16:38.170 --> 00:16:40.510
and you can separate those other layers

256
00:16:41.050 --> 00:16:42.670
takes away a bunch of the liability

257
00:16:43.115 --> 00:16:46.654
and still allows you to build a really amazing business on top of it.

258
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And it'd be my hope that Elon and the company recognize this,

259
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and they recognize the single point of failure that they're they're in. It doesn't matter who is the CEO of that company, no matter how much you love them or hate them,

260
00:17:01.580 --> 00:17:04.080
they're in a place where they have a a choke point.

261
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And that choke point can be their business model.

262
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It can be the relationship with their other businesses.

263
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It can be countries threatening to raid the offices of their

264
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employees

265
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or put them in jail, which we had when I was CEO of Twitter many, many times in countries all over the all around the world.

266
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And it's not sustainable.

267
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You can't

268
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build a company

269
00:17:29.049 --> 00:17:31.149
that means to serve as

270
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a town square, a public town square,

271
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without having something

272
00:17:38.745 --> 00:17:41.325
underneath it that no single entity owns.

273
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And that's what Nostra represents to me,

274
00:17:44.904 --> 00:17:47.965
is that you you can remove some of that liability

275
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and you can

276
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get back to the idea

277
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of what Twitter was meant to be

278
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and what it what it ultimately is

279
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by providing a much stronger foundation

280
00:17:59.159 --> 00:18:02.380
that no single person, no and no government, no company

281
00:18:02.840 --> 00:18:05.179
owns or can can remove.

282
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And that's what this this is all about to me,

283
00:18:09.015 --> 00:18:15.515
is giving options to a company like Twitter so that they can take that option. I'm not saying that they will,

284
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but the fact that

285
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.420
it's an option is is really important.

286
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I

287
00:18:25.120 --> 00:18:26.900
I don't know. I I'm I'm conflicted.

288
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I really love Twitter.

289
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:29.940
I

290
00:18:33.075 --> 00:18:37.654
I loved building it. I still love it. I think the algorithm has

291
00:18:38.115 --> 00:18:39.654
taken over too much.

292
00:18:42.434 --> 00:18:42.934
I,

293
00:18:44.195 --> 00:18:45.975
everything I don't love about it,

294
00:18:47.510 --> 00:18:48.409
I see alternatives and

295
00:18:49.750 --> 00:18:50.250
noster

296
00:18:50.789 --> 00:19:02.885
that I do love. And it's not me saying, like, we should do this, we should do this, we should do this. People just come to their own conclusions. I'm like, man, that's awesome. That's awesome that someone's thinking about that, and they're doing it, and

297
00:19:03.265 --> 00:19:06.644
no one's telling them to do it. They just want it, then they wanna build it.

298
00:19:07.024 --> 00:19:07.424
And,

299
00:19:08.304 --> 00:19:10.005
they don't have to ask for any permission.

300
00:19:10.385 --> 00:19:12.005
As a CEO of another company,

301
00:19:12.705 --> 00:19:16.830
like, people have to ask permission from me all the time to get money and to,

302
00:19:17.930 --> 00:19:23.950
to fund their their projects and to get budget and whatnot and to be able to take myself out of that equation

303
00:19:24.970 --> 00:19:25.790
and instead

304
00:19:27.675 --> 00:19:32.175
take the benefit I've had from building something like Twitter and Square and Block

305
00:19:32.555 --> 00:19:41.935
and giving it to organizations like like Matt to make those decisions in a rigorous way with a board of 9 people, which I'm told is extremely important at that particular size,

306
00:19:42.530 --> 00:19:43.590
and other organizations.

307
00:19:45.409 --> 00:19:47.350
And for them to make those funding decisions

308
00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:49.510
about ideas that

309
00:19:49.890 --> 00:19:53.909
that we should have in these experiences, in the in these protocols, in these platforms

310
00:19:54.450 --> 00:19:55.990
is pretty amazing to see.

311
00:19:56.850 --> 00:19:57.350
And

312
00:19:59.875 --> 00:20:02.855
so while I'm upset about various things in Twitter,

313
00:20:03.555 --> 00:20:04.855
I love that the

314
00:20:05.235 --> 00:20:05.635
ideal

315
00:20:06.035 --> 00:20:07.255
ID idea

316
00:20:07.555 --> 00:20:08.055
idea

317
00:20:09.075 --> 00:20:09.575
persists

318
00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:17.040
and that it's even being made stronger and stronger and stronger every day in in in the work that we're talking about over these past 2 days.

319
00:20:20.300 --> 00:20:22.240
They're pre clapping for your question

320
00:20:22.940 --> 00:20:25.040
because they know the next one's gonna be a banger.

321
00:20:25.785 --> 00:20:29.565
I mean, I I I used to love Twitter too, but I think Nostra fixes this.

322
00:20:31.225 --> 00:20:31.725
Yeah.

323
00:20:32.025 --> 00:20:32.525
I

324
00:20:33.625 --> 00:20:36.125
I do. I I I also I I agree.

325
00:20:38.185 --> 00:20:40.685
And I and I no. I respect that you

326
00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:45.860
are able to delete your account and that you did. It's a big step to walk away from an audience.

327
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:47.700
It's a big step to take

328
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:52.660
away the convenience, and it's a big step to go the opposite direction of the momentum.

329
00:20:53.615 --> 00:20:57.795
And you're brave because you're you're in a world that is dependent upon

330
00:20:58.415 --> 00:21:01.235
people knowing what you do and your audience

331
00:21:02.655 --> 00:21:05.075
and you're only as good as your reach ultimately.

332
00:21:06.415 --> 00:21:08.435
And to take that channel and just say,

333
00:21:08.860 --> 00:21:11.340
I'm building elsewhere, I think is important because we're

334
00:21:11.980 --> 00:21:19.440
if people don't follow your lead, we're we're not really going to be anywhere. Like, we need to have that, and we need to have this new

335
00:21:19.899 --> 00:21:20.399
experience

336
00:21:22.625 --> 00:21:26.725
that you haven't seen elsewhere. And I agree completely with Rabble in terms

337
00:21:27.665 --> 00:21:28.965
of the the magic.

338
00:21:29.505 --> 00:21:32.965
The first magic thing is being able to plug that N2C into

339
00:21:33.665 --> 00:21:38.740
different clients and different apps, and I think it's amazing. The second for for me is apps, but

340
00:21:39.120 --> 00:21:46.740
that that freedom that that gives is important. Having more of those, but also people like you that are braving ahead and saying, like, I'm forgetting this.

341
00:21:47.760 --> 00:21:50.740
You can find me here and I'm dedicating myself to it.

342
00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:53.700
It's important. Snowden was going that direction

343
00:21:54.825 --> 00:22:04.525
and the technology got in his way. He has a very complicated setup and there were some issues with Tor and we haven't seen him for quite some time on either service,

344
00:22:05.145 --> 00:22:07.804
but he wanted to do something very similar.

345
00:22:08.410 --> 00:22:12.430
He has a massive audience elsewhere. But the more people we have like you and him

346
00:22:13.530 --> 00:22:17.370
and hopefully others that do that and make this a thing and make it present,

347
00:22:18.010 --> 00:22:21.870
I think we we all benefit and then as long as technology is backing up in

348
00:22:22.955 --> 00:22:24.175
the product experience.

349
00:22:25.915 --> 00:22:26.895
So thank you.

350
00:22:27.355 --> 00:22:28.095
Thank you.

351
00:22:35.560 --> 00:22:38.060
So let's drill in a little bit more there.

352
00:22:38.840 --> 00:22:40.060
Do you have an opinion

353
00:22:40.840 --> 00:22:44.060
on Elon's decision to do mass identity verification

354
00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:45.180
on

355
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:48.380
x's half a 1000000000 users?

356
00:22:51.405 --> 00:22:52.385
This is great.

357
00:22:58.684 --> 00:23:02.145
Yeah. I mean, I I think, I wish he didn't have to

358
00:23:02.765 --> 00:23:04.225
and I wish he wouldn't,

359
00:23:04.549 --> 00:23:07.770
but running a company that we have to, I understand.

360
00:23:10.390 --> 00:23:14.010
You know, we're running a payments company. It's a public company, and,

361
00:23:14.390 --> 00:23:15.530
we have a lot of,

362
00:23:16.470 --> 00:23:20.955
regulation around us and a lot of requirements, as was talked about in some other presentations.

363
00:23:22.375 --> 00:23:24.395
We can't be a full Bitcoin company.

364
00:23:25.335 --> 00:23:30.155
No company can be a full Bitcoin company because as soon as you intersect U. S. Law

365
00:23:30.615 --> 00:23:31.835
or any other law,

366
00:23:32.135 --> 00:23:33.034
you make compromises.

367
00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:35.340
So,

368
00:23:37.080 --> 00:23:44.059
you have to keep in mind that Elon's stated goal is for x to be the everything app, and part of the everything app is

369
00:23:44.840 --> 00:23:45.659
moving money.

370
00:23:46.445 --> 00:23:49.505
And I don't know what the plans are and how they move that money,

371
00:23:50.365 --> 00:23:52.625
but they're certainly getting money transmitter licensees,

372
00:23:53.565 --> 00:23:55.345
and that requires KYC.

373
00:23:56.605 --> 00:24:10.360
Yeah. But that's not I mean, his his explanation for why he's doing it is to combat bots and spam, and there are other ways you can do that Yeah. That don't require identity verification. We've had a couple panels today that have discussed ways that

374
00:24:10.900 --> 00:24:14.360
Nostra clients can do that through proof of work or through micropayments

375
00:24:14.820 --> 00:24:15.640
with Bitcoin.

376
00:24:16.135 --> 00:24:16.635
Yeah.

377
00:24:17.335 --> 00:24:23.835
There are there are other ways, but it's a question of, like, convenience for the individual. And again, the reality is

378
00:24:24.135 --> 00:24:26.635
people might say they care, but they don't care.

379
00:24:27.414 --> 00:24:31.515
They don't. And they'd rather go the convenient path and just get the blue check and

380
00:24:31.909 --> 00:24:34.549
and go and get the bigger audience or remove the ads,

381
00:24:35.669 --> 00:24:40.330
and it's not important to them right now. And hopefully, it becomes important through more

382
00:24:41.029 --> 00:24:41.529
understanding

383
00:24:41.909 --> 00:24:46.169
or hopefully not through a crisis that they have in terms of, like, losing

384
00:24:46.495 --> 00:24:57.075
some of their identity or or being doxxed or whatnot, but it's not important. If it was important, people would care about it and it would demand it from and the market would provide a different solution, but that's not the case.

385
00:24:57.855 --> 00:24:59.395
I mean, the concern is

386
00:25:03.110 --> 00:25:06.890
You got you got a fan back there. See you. We appreciate you. We'll talk.

387
00:25:10.470 --> 00:25:14.490
The concern is when you see the increasing attacks on speech around the world.

388
00:25:15.495 --> 00:25:20.635
We see a country like the UK right now, right, where they are targeting people who are

389
00:25:21.015 --> 00:25:21.515
retweeting

390
00:25:21.815 --> 00:25:29.800
tweets, who are liking the wrong tweet, that are posting the wrong comment on Facebook, and they're throwing them in jail. Yep. And then you couple that with widespread

391
00:25:30.180 --> 00:25:31.240
identity verification

392
00:25:31.540 --> 00:25:32.920
on social media users.

393
00:25:33.220 --> 00:25:37.400
And then all of a sudden, you have these governments that are gonna use that information

394
00:25:37.940 --> 00:25:41.240
to then target people that say things they don't want to say.

395
00:25:41.785 --> 00:25:42.285
And,

396
00:25:42.985 --> 00:25:45.405
unfortunately, the reality is most people

397
00:25:45.785 --> 00:25:48.925
learn this the hard way. As you said, they choose convenience first,

398
00:25:49.785 --> 00:25:53.405
but it it will be people being thrown in jail, people having their lives ruined,

399
00:25:53.990 --> 00:25:57.210
before they real realize the danger of this mass identity verification.

400
00:25:57.670 --> 00:26:02.890
A 100%. But it's not just it's not just that. And I agree. I would rather not link any

401
00:26:03.270 --> 00:26:04.330
identity to,

402
00:26:05.110 --> 00:26:07.850
you know, quote unquote dangerous political speech.

403
00:26:08.625 --> 00:26:10.405
But in activists today

404
00:26:10.865 --> 00:26:12.325
who's questioning their government,

405
00:26:13.905 --> 00:26:16.085
choosing between x and choosing

406
00:26:16.785 --> 00:26:17.285
Noster,

407
00:26:17.905 --> 00:26:19.845
the risks are effectively the same.

408
00:26:21.850 --> 00:26:22.350
Why?

409
00:26:22.730 --> 00:26:23.870
In terms of privacy.

410
00:26:24.330 --> 00:26:32.190
We're very leaky with IP addresses. There are ways to go around this, but the average activist doesn't know how to use those tools effectively.

411
00:26:33.210 --> 00:26:36.590
Yeah. I mean, I think the IP address concern is a real concern.

412
00:26:37.924 --> 00:26:51.225
That's just a general Internet concern. Obviously, you are leaking your IP address to Twitter or Facebook or anything else you use. Right. But but But you're not you're not leaking it externally. You can use VPNs. You can use Tor. We're gonna have clients that

413
00:26:51.970 --> 00:27:04.950
provide different types of services to try and mitigate that kind of exposure to users, and we're not quite there yet. So I do agree with you. And if that audience is truly important to us, then we need to build those tools into the the stack as much as we can. 100%.

414
00:27:05.330 --> 00:27:05.830
100%.

415
00:27:10.905 --> 00:27:28.040
I mean, it's the same way I view bit Bitcoin. If you can't if an activist in an authoritarian country can't safely use it in an easy way Yeah. We've completely failed. Like, the mission, the movement, it's it's a complete failure. There's a percent of a percent of a percent of a percent of a percent is who's going to go through the same

416
00:27:28.820 --> 00:27:33.000
setup that someone like Snowden goes through to protect truly protect their identity.

417
00:27:33.780 --> 00:27:35.640
And if we can build that into

418
00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:36.760
these stacks

419
00:27:37.125 --> 00:27:38.665
and, again, play towards

420
00:27:39.205 --> 00:27:44.665
the convenience and the momentum that people naturally drive towards because they need to get something out,

421
00:27:45.285 --> 00:27:48.665
then we win for the audience. But but right now,

422
00:27:48.980 --> 00:27:53.000
there is an equivalence. And I know it doesn't feel that way, but, like, the fact is the tools

423
00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:56.680
are pretty scarce and they're pretty dangerous for

424
00:27:57.060 --> 00:27:57.940
this this,

425
00:27:58.660 --> 00:28:00.920
this use case that we we care so much about.

426
00:28:02.625 --> 00:28:04.485
So I have one last question for you,

427
00:28:05.345 --> 00:28:06.965
because we're up on time.

428
00:28:09.664 --> 00:28:14.404
I mean, so you're just you're a fascinating person. You've built 2 massive publicly traded companies,

429
00:28:15.184 --> 00:28:16.565
juggernaut tech businesses.

430
00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:19.840
And you you said you

431
00:28:20.140 --> 00:28:28.160
said on the stage today that you you regret that Twitter went public. Right? And this is something that at 10:31 am I constantly thinking about

432
00:28:28.540 --> 00:28:36.855
with the private Bitcoin businesses that we're investing in. Do you think there's ever a reason for a company to go public or should just no one

433
00:28:37.235 --> 00:28:40.215
no one go to public markets, just stay in private markets?

434
00:28:41.395 --> 00:28:42.435
It's a question of,

435
00:28:43.315 --> 00:28:44.215
in incentives

436
00:28:45.075 --> 00:28:46.855
because as soon as you go public,

437
00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:48.980
you

438
00:28:50.020 --> 00:28:52.520
your different incentives are forced upon you,

439
00:28:52.980 --> 00:28:54.679
and it's very, very challenging

440
00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:58.200
to build against those incentives.

441
00:28:59.220 --> 00:28:59.720
And,

442
00:29:01.415 --> 00:29:03.755
I don't know, like it it's a question of

443
00:29:04.455 --> 00:29:07.035
it's a question of I I don't think companies

444
00:29:07.495 --> 00:29:08.794
are inherently evil,

445
00:29:09.415 --> 00:29:15.595
but it's very easy for them to go that direction, and it's almost incentivized for them to go that direction.

446
00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:19.650
And I think if you make conscious choices around how you build your company

447
00:29:20.190 --> 00:29:25.250
like, we gave equity to our employees day 1, and that equity is a promise

448
00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:28.370
that they have an ownership in the company that will eventually

449
00:29:28.985 --> 00:29:33.005
be made good in 1 of 3 ways. 1, we go out of business, so they lose everything.

450
00:29:33.625 --> 00:29:34.605
2, we're purchased,

451
00:29:35.065 --> 00:29:36.205
so they get some

452
00:29:36.825 --> 00:29:49.809
potential markup on what they originally got the price of their share for. And 3rd, we go public, which is an open market and it's traded up and down and all the volatility that that that suggests or or the the long tail.

453
00:29:50.830 --> 00:29:53.009
So if you're building your company and you're hiring,

454
00:29:54.269 --> 00:29:57.304
folks with that promise, then you have to deliver on it. If you

455
00:29:57.764 --> 00:29:59.384
strike a different thing where

456
00:29:59.845 --> 00:30:01.625
there's a revenue share or

457
00:30:02.644 --> 00:30:09.705
there's a we're gonna you know, as a company we've made so much money, we're gonna buy back your shares and we're gonna put a premium on it,

458
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:14.700
They have to agree with it because companies really come down to the team, ultimately.

459
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.140
And it's just a function and a strategy for,

460
00:30:18.600 --> 00:30:19.640
like, how you,

461
00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:21.340
how you build that

462
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.620
and ultimately what what you can do with it. But

463
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:25.420
I

464
00:30:25.945 --> 00:30:26.985
I don't think,

465
00:30:28.425 --> 00:30:29.945
I regret the fact that,

466
00:30:30.985 --> 00:30:33.085
Twitter could not have just been

467
00:30:33.545 --> 00:30:36.445
an open source project, could not have just been an API,

468
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:43.820
but I don't regret the fact that we turned it into a company because it spread the idea super quick.

469
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:47.580
And if I had to choose anything, it'd be the idea.

470
00:30:48.040 --> 00:30:53.644
The manifestation of it doesn't matter. I think the idea is really solid and the idea has inspired

471
00:30:54.264 --> 00:31:00.764
new things such as, you know, what what we've been talking about, and it makes the idea even even better and better and better.

472
00:31:02.184 --> 00:31:10.210
So time is scarce, but, we just got it. We got an added 15 minutes here. I think it's because you guys are clapping so hard. So thank you.

473
00:31:13.950 --> 00:31:17.170
So you said you wish Twitter was an open protocol. Obviously,

474
00:31:18.165 --> 00:31:19.705
I think that is Nostar.

475
00:31:20.645 --> 00:31:21.305
It is.

476
00:31:21.845 --> 00:31:22.825
Before you

477
00:31:23.845 --> 00:31:24.665
before you,

478
00:31:26.005 --> 00:31:29.465
left leadership at Twitter, because now we know you are continuing

479
00:31:30.005 --> 00:31:31.705
you still own the same amount,

480
00:31:32.429 --> 00:31:33.970
So nothing really changed there.

481
00:31:34.590 --> 00:31:36.769
You launched this initiative, Blue Sky,

482
00:31:38.429 --> 00:31:40.769
which from my perspective was an unmitigated

483
00:31:41.070 --> 00:31:41.570
disaster.

484
00:31:42.590 --> 00:31:45.889
Do you have any insight in what went wrong there?

485
00:31:54.195 --> 00:31:54.695
So

486
00:31:55.794 --> 00:31:56.294
I

487
00:31:57.395 --> 00:31:59.255
I I wrote some I wrote some tweets.

488
00:31:59.875 --> 00:32:02.775
I don't know what year it was. Rabel, do you know? Where's Rabel?

489
00:32:06.100 --> 00:32:11.799
So I'm over here. Hey, Raval. Yep. Hey. What's up? So Raval was my boss for a long time. Yeah.

490
00:32:13.380 --> 00:32:16.919
Do you know when, we announced, like, the initiative to

491
00:32:17.299 --> 00:32:18.200
build the protocol?

492
00:32:18.685 --> 00:32:25.265
I think it was 2020 or 2021. It was maybe 2019. I think the first time I sat down and said, hey,

493
00:32:25.805 --> 00:32:27.185
let's do a protocol

494
00:32:27.965 --> 00:32:29.105
was 2018.

495
00:32:30.125 --> 00:32:33.425
And you were like, oh, so I'll invest. And then some Twitter

496
00:32:34.420 --> 00:32:34.920
person,

497
00:32:35.540 --> 00:32:38.680
like lawyer was like, oh, no. You can't invest personally

498
00:32:39.060 --> 00:32:45.720
and Twitter can't invest in this either. And then it took a couple years until you figured out how to do it. Yeah.

499
00:32:46.420 --> 00:32:48.120
In a lot of pain by the way.

500
00:32:48.875 --> 00:32:55.215
But we we did it, we committed to it, and we we launched this thing and then, we had a small team who were talking with this

501
00:32:55.675 --> 00:32:56.575
growing community.

502
00:32:57.995 --> 00:32:59.775
And actually someone named Fia Jaff

503
00:33:00.235 --> 00:33:05.270
actually came by and had conversations with us, not physically came by, but but talked with the

504
00:33:05.650 --> 00:33:06.230
group, Rabble,

505
00:33:07.490 --> 00:33:08.550
a bunch of others.

506
00:33:09.730 --> 00:33:11.670
And the the team, you know, eventually,

507
00:33:12.610 --> 00:33:13.110
came,

508
00:33:13.570 --> 00:33:17.990
upon the the ultimate lead of of what became Blue Sky,

509
00:33:18.585 --> 00:33:19.965
which was Jay.

510
00:33:22.505 --> 00:33:23.005
And

511
00:33:23.865 --> 00:33:25.245
at that time I was also,

512
00:33:27.865 --> 00:33:30.445
well, when we had an activist come into our stock

513
00:33:31.049 --> 00:33:31.549
and

514
00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:37.950
that time when the activist came in is when I committed to leaving the company. It took me about a year,

515
00:33:39.130 --> 00:33:42.269
but that year was up and as I was leaving the company,

516
00:33:43.835 --> 00:33:46.895
we were hiring Jay and she was launching Blue Sky

517
00:33:47.755 --> 00:33:48.975
and then suddenly

518
00:33:49.435 --> 00:33:51.775
Elon expressed interest to buy the company

519
00:33:52.315 --> 00:33:58.490
and that actually went through after a lot of back and forth, which really, really depressed me and I thought was terrible,

520
00:33:59.350 --> 00:34:00.810
and and really hurt the company,

521
00:34:01.590 --> 00:34:03.930
and I think set up Elon for

522
00:34:04.390 --> 00:34:06.490
some some negative outcomes early on.

523
00:34:10.710 --> 00:34:11.770
And and then

524
00:34:12.785 --> 00:34:13.285
Jay,

525
00:34:13.905 --> 00:34:18.005
got pretty nervous about funding existing. We gave we gave them 14,000,000

526
00:34:19.105 --> 00:34:20.965
and funding continuing to exist,

527
00:34:21.985 --> 00:34:23.205
after he launched purchase.

528
00:34:24.145 --> 00:34:24.645
And,

529
00:34:25.185 --> 00:34:26.965
she started to raise money

530
00:34:27.510 --> 00:34:28.570
from other VCs,

531
00:34:28.870 --> 00:34:29.370
and

532
00:34:30.390 --> 00:34:36.730
that and the fact that it had a board and the way it was being developed, as as Raul talked about earlier,

533
00:34:37.910 --> 00:34:38.810
and finding

534
00:34:39.915 --> 00:34:40.415
PHF's

535
00:34:41.435 --> 00:34:42.495
markdown file

536
00:34:43.035 --> 00:34:43.855
on GitHub,

537
00:34:44.315 --> 00:34:48.015
where he diagnosed every single problem Twitter had

538
00:34:48.475 --> 00:34:51.615
and an actual solution that that kind of worked

539
00:34:51.995 --> 00:34:54.255
and the humility in releasing that.

540
00:34:55.150 --> 00:34:58.610
And the number of people that were coming to me saying, you should look at Noster,

541
00:34:59.150 --> 00:34:59.970
and then,

542
00:35:02.830 --> 00:35:05.410
tweeting about it and downloading DAMAS and

543
00:35:05.790 --> 00:35:10.050
talking with Will and again, like, the moment for me was taking my

544
00:35:10.505 --> 00:35:14.125
NSEQ was which was kind of a mix between NSEQ

545
00:35:14.585 --> 00:35:16.605
and the HEX fields at that point,

546
00:35:17.385 --> 00:35:20.205
and moving it to another client on the web was, like,

547
00:35:20.665 --> 00:35:21.165
wow.

548
00:35:21.625 --> 00:35:25.805
Like, this this is it. Like, it's super janky right now, but there's something

549
00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:28.440
there's something here and the people are amazing.

550
00:35:29.140 --> 00:35:29.640
And,

551
00:35:30.180 --> 00:35:31.080
the next day

552
00:35:32.020 --> 00:35:33.480
I realized, like,

553
00:35:35.060 --> 00:35:37.160
fundamentally blue sky is the wrong direction,

554
00:35:37.620 --> 00:35:40.280
in terms of the way this this has been built

555
00:35:41.145 --> 00:35:45.965
and that, I should do whatever it takes to help Nasser and I reached out to Fia, Jeff and

556
00:35:46.505 --> 00:35:51.645
Will and I said, like, do you have a foundation I can donate to because I'm donating money to these Internet,

557
00:35:52.745 --> 00:35:54.045
nonprofits and

558
00:35:55.250 --> 00:35:56.869
they both said, hell no.

559
00:35:58.130 --> 00:36:02.630
So we figured out other ways to do that and, and I started the Nostra Development Fund.

560
00:36:03.250 --> 00:36:03.750
And

561
00:36:04.770 --> 00:36:11.915
ever since that moment, it's just gotten more and more exciting. More and more people have come on, more and more people have taken it seriously,

562
00:36:13.415 --> 00:36:13.915
and

563
00:36:14.375 --> 00:36:16.235
I'm I'm just so grateful for,

564
00:36:17.095 --> 00:36:20.155
like the, the grace of the the folks in this room

565
00:36:20.695 --> 00:36:22.555
and and Will and Fia, Jeff and

566
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:25.339
all the early people,

567
00:36:26.599 --> 00:36:28.059
that stuck it out for

568
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:32.539
at least a year and a half before I discovered y'all,

569
00:36:34.200 --> 00:36:40.505
and just just because they believed in it. And, like, that that moment right there, like, that time span is the

570
00:36:40.885 --> 00:36:41.785
most fragile

571
00:36:42.404 --> 00:36:45.625
of any project, of any company, of any initiative.

572
00:36:46.404 --> 00:36:48.505
And we we have,

573
00:36:48.964 --> 00:36:54.345
you know, we have Will and we have Fia Jaff and a bunch of others to thank. So huge round of applause for them.

574
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:01.820
And Matt,

575
00:37:02.200 --> 00:37:03.660
Matt actually had a podcast

576
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:05.900
with Will early on,

577
00:37:07.385 --> 00:37:10.525
and he used it on that podcast and then never used it again,

578
00:37:11.464 --> 00:37:15.724
until until recently where he's now deleted his ex account. So

579
00:37:16.585 --> 00:37:19.244
we also have him to thank for finding early

580
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.900
technology and finding early folks like like Will and

581
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:29.859
and believing in them and then believing enough in them that, you know, you you put them on the on the platform and the stage of,

582
00:37:31.680 --> 00:37:32.420
of your

583
00:37:33.245 --> 00:37:36.465
huge podcast platform. What what is the name of that podcast?

584
00:37:37.565 --> 00:37:44.065
Was it Sildot Dispatch or I don't know which one you It was Sildot Dispatch. Okay. So Open your podcast app. Click subscribe.

585
00:37:47.140 --> 00:37:51.400
That was a fun rip. That was it feels like a decade ago. What was that? Like, 3 years ago, Will?

586
00:37:51.860 --> 00:37:58.680
It was 3 years ago? Oh, yeah. It was a long time ago. Feels like a decade. We do have the best open source contributors. This movement is

587
00:37:59.165 --> 00:38:09.505
a special beast, and I I I don't think you can overstate that. The it is incredibly undervalued. You can throw it up in all caps on the back screen over there, and people would still not appreciate it enough.

588
00:38:10.285 --> 00:38:11.585
True. The the claps.

589
00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:21.420
So, I mean, one of the coolest parts about Nasr to me is this idea of

590
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:27.260
of being able to move between apps without permission. Right? We have this massive ecosystem

591
00:38:28.095 --> 00:38:32.275
of of hyper focused apps that do different things. You know, we have,

592
00:38:33.215 --> 00:38:35.315
apps that do events. We have apps

593
00:38:35.615 --> 00:38:37.715
that are that are based on on

594
00:38:38.335 --> 00:38:44.050
streaming videos. We have we have clients that look like an Instagram or clients that look like Reddit.

595
00:38:44.830 --> 00:38:51.250
I think Open Sats alone is now funding over 30 Nostra clients, and you can just easily move

596
00:38:52.535 --> 00:39:01.815
that private key that that that nsec that is generated when you first launch Nostr in any Nostr app, you can easily move it to any other client. So it's it's like the ultimate

597
00:39:02.775 --> 00:39:14.970
first of all, it's ultimate in terms of interoperability of being able to move around with your social graph and have all your followers and have everyone that that you wanna communicate and interact with move with you between apps, but it's also the ultimate check

598
00:39:15.430 --> 00:39:15.930
on

599
00:39:17.030 --> 00:39:17.530
on

600
00:39:17.830 --> 00:39:21.370
on on corruption or or or apps doing things

601
00:39:21.825 --> 00:39:27.205
that users don't want or that are predatory against users. It's like a core foundational element of Nostra. Right?

602
00:39:27.984 --> 00:39:28.484
The

603
00:39:30.545 --> 00:39:38.830
the the difficulty there, right, is so, like, we might have a lot of people watching this livestream right now that have never used Nostr before.

604
00:39:39.930 --> 00:39:40.430
And

605
00:39:41.530 --> 00:39:44.190
I I find myself in this situation a lot,

606
00:39:44.810 --> 00:39:46.110
where it's it's

607
00:39:46.410 --> 00:39:47.390
how do you

608
00:39:48.730 --> 00:39:49.790
how do you recommend

609
00:39:50.090 --> 00:39:52.795
to a new user where to start on Nostr,

610
00:39:54.934 --> 00:40:02.634
with with without, you know, going into all the nuance of, you know I I I don't know how to phrase this question. Basically,

611
00:40:03.640 --> 00:40:08.140
instead of, like, listing 30 apps and be like, you could use all of these clients,

612
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:12.460
how do you do it? Like, do you just tell people to, like,

613
00:40:13.080 --> 00:40:15.420
Google Nostr? Do you tell them to go to nostr.comornostr.org?

614
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:21.395
Like, how do you handle that situation? I start I start sending them, links.

615
00:40:21.935 --> 00:40:23.395
I start sending them post

616
00:40:23.855 --> 00:40:27.075
because I I think the the thing that's going to drive people

617
00:40:27.535 --> 00:40:30.835
to it is who's on it and the the content

618
00:40:31.180 --> 00:40:32.960
and what they can find ultimately.

619
00:40:33.580 --> 00:40:35.280
So whatever client I'm on,

620
00:40:35.740 --> 00:40:38.720
there's a share sheet and it goes to Imessage or,

621
00:40:39.980 --> 00:40:40.880
signal and,

622
00:40:42.060 --> 00:40:45.520
that that to me has been the the stickiest way to get people in.

623
00:40:47.005 --> 00:40:47.744
I think,

624
00:40:48.525 --> 00:40:52.224
you know, Primal did a really good job of making people feel

625
00:40:52.765 --> 00:40:53.425
the importance

626
00:40:54.365 --> 00:40:55.025
of it

627
00:40:55.405 --> 00:41:01.010
through the the Bitcoin wallet built in and being able to buy Bitcoin and receive zaps.

628
00:41:01.950 --> 00:41:05.410
Like, the the thing that really made Twitter click for people

629
00:41:05.790 --> 00:41:13.170
early on was the fact that, like, it was SMS based and it would actually buzz your pocket and your your your pocket would, like, vibrate.

630
00:41:13.685 --> 00:41:17.305
Like, it felt really, really tangible. Like, you could feel the network.

631
00:41:17.845 --> 00:41:18.345
And

632
00:41:18.645 --> 00:41:23.145
Zaps is another amazing way to feel the network. The fact that you're getting value,

633
00:41:23.685 --> 00:41:26.505
however it's denominated or explained to you.

634
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:28.559
I just signed someone up who

635
00:41:29.200 --> 00:41:30.420
this guy Tony Schifrazzi.

636
00:41:31.359 --> 00:41:31.859
And,

637
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:37.779
check out check out my recent notes because this guy is a legend. This guy

638
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:41.779
was the one of the one of the people that found Basquiat,

639
00:41:42.295 --> 00:41:43.035
the artist,

640
00:41:44.775 --> 00:41:47.595
defaced a number of really important paintings

641
00:41:48.135 --> 00:41:50.715
as a as a statement, as an artistic statement,

642
00:41:51.335 --> 00:41:55.115
and this guy just knows everyone. He's he's just got such an interesting mind.

643
00:41:55.500 --> 00:41:56.000
And

644
00:41:57.420 --> 00:42:07.360
him posting and then me reposting him and introducing him and him getting zaps because I signed him up for the wallet right away, he's just like,

645
00:42:08.365 --> 00:42:10.145
my good. I'm a look at this again.

646
00:42:10.445 --> 00:42:10.945
And

647
00:42:11.805 --> 00:42:19.025
I I think that someone said this in an earlier presentation, but it's very easy to get people to try it and it's very hard to get I think it was you, Paul.

648
00:42:19.405 --> 00:42:22.385
Very hard to get them to stay and to come back to it.

649
00:42:24.260 --> 00:42:29.000
But the only thing that gets people coming back is, like, the content, ultimately.

650
00:42:29.540 --> 00:42:31.460
And right now, when you sign up with,

651
00:42:31.940 --> 00:42:34.920
with Primal, for instance, I'm a I'm a pick on you guys,

652
00:42:37.265 --> 00:42:39.025
The experience is, oh, I I have

653
00:42:39.505 --> 00:42:41.525
why am I following a 134 people?

654
00:42:41.905 --> 00:42:45.365
Who are these people? And they actually it puts them in this defensive

655
00:42:46.145 --> 00:42:54.270
position of, like, why am I following these people and how do I unfollow them and what the hell are they talking about? And to Rabel's point, they're all talking about Bitcoin.

656
00:42:55.370 --> 00:43:02.510
And now they're just, like, doubly insulted and never gonna open the app, you know, never open the app again unless, like, you send them

657
00:43:03.365 --> 00:43:03.865
post,

658
00:43:04.565 --> 00:43:05.704
and through other channels.

659
00:43:06.325 --> 00:43:11.145
So the onboarding experience and how people get in is really really critical and really important

660
00:43:12.724 --> 00:43:20.710
and none of the clients have really figured it out yet. But it's not that far off. Like, it's really not that far off, and I think we see line of sight to it,

661
00:43:21.810 --> 00:43:22.310
but

662
00:43:23.330 --> 00:43:24.710
it's it's work, and

663
00:43:25.410 --> 00:43:25.910
people

664
00:43:26.370 --> 00:43:30.225
will reintroduce some themselves to services like this,

665
00:43:30.625 --> 00:43:31.925
but only so much.

666
00:43:33.345 --> 00:43:38.245
And we have to, you know, just be really hyper aware of, like, they're only gonna try this

667
00:43:39.185 --> 00:43:47.250
maybe twice, and if we miss them on the first time and we miss them on the second time, we're probably gonna miss them out completely.

668
00:43:47.789 --> 00:43:49.410
And that's the power of the,

669
00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:54.690
you know, the social app protocol that Raba was talking about, where this ecosystem of apps,

670
00:43:55.069 --> 00:43:57.410
is that you may not get them for the Twitter clone.

671
00:43:57.869 --> 00:44:00.289
You might get them for another app experience,

672
00:44:01.375 --> 00:44:07.155
and they're still using Nostra. And if they're using Nostra for any one of those social social apps,

673
00:44:07.695 --> 00:44:10.675
then the whole network benefits, including the Twitter clone.

674
00:44:11.375 --> 00:44:14.915
That's magic. Like, you don't see that anywhere else. Like, the power of an ecosystem

675
00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:22.540
is every part positively reinforces other parts, even if there are completely different use cases and completely disconnected.

676
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:27.660
And, like, if you were to talk about an everything app, like,

677
00:44:28.485 --> 00:44:33.065
it's it's amazing. We've seen proof of it in China and and other places, but

678
00:44:33.445 --> 00:44:36.025
to actually have an everything ecosystem

679
00:44:36.485 --> 00:44:37.305
where you have

680
00:44:37.765 --> 00:44:41.705
thousands and thousands of apps that are not controlled by an Apple or Google,

681
00:44:43.050 --> 00:44:47.150
that people control themselves and they can control their data and bring their data

682
00:44:47.530 --> 00:44:49.070
and their identity anywhere,

683
00:44:49.370 --> 00:44:58.204
and they can even take it off and and remove it. That's powerful. And it will be something that people want over time. But what they want right now is utility.

684
00:44:58.505 --> 00:44:59.244
They want

685
00:44:59.704 --> 00:45:00.204
immediate

686
00:45:00.825 --> 00:45:01.964
realization of value

687
00:45:02.505 --> 00:45:13.190
and we're not gonna get it by just competing with the use case of of Twitter. We're gonna we're we're gonna get it by offering a bunch of doorways in and one of them is gonna hook

688
00:45:13.570 --> 00:45:16.630
and it's going to provide that that value and that,

689
00:45:17.490 --> 00:45:18.630
lifting all the boats,

690
00:45:19.010 --> 00:45:21.510
for for all the other use cases that we care about.

691
00:45:28.615 --> 00:45:30.555
They they just keep adding time for us.

692
00:45:31.575 --> 00:45:33.835
We have another panel, right, about the whole conference?

693
00:45:34.135 --> 00:45:34.635
Yes.

694
00:45:35.255 --> 00:45:37.275
So let's wrap this on one more question,

695
00:45:37.850 --> 00:45:41.710
and we'll bring it back to we'll bring now that I have more time, we're bringing it back to x.

696
00:45:42.970 --> 00:45:43.470
The

697
00:45:44.250 --> 00:45:45.630
For someone who's deleted

698
00:45:46.410 --> 00:45:48.670
their x account and doesn't care about x,

699
00:45:50.250 --> 00:45:51.470
there's a lot of conversation.

700
00:45:52.655 --> 00:45:53.474
You're the cofounder.

701
00:45:53.935 --> 00:45:55.155
I have you on stage.

702
00:45:55.695 --> 00:45:57.474
We have a I'm the cofounder of Twitter.

703
00:45:57.935 --> 00:46:01.075
It's, and and you still own the same percent of x.

704
00:46:04.255 --> 00:46:15.820
So one of the reasons I love Twitter, right, it was the only social media I used for over a decade. Right? And the the reason I love Twitter, one of the core reasons I love Twitter was because I knew that if I

705
00:46:16.120 --> 00:46:39.410
had a Twitter link, if I had a piece of content on Twitter, I could share it with the world and they didn't have to be logged in. They didn't have to be signed in. They didn't have to have an account, and they were able to see it. Yep. Reddit famously called itself the home page of the Internet. Both x and Reddit require you to have accounts in order to view and and engage and interact with it. Like, right now, if if I open a It's dumb. An Xlink Mhmm.

706
00:46:40.030 --> 00:46:47.330
On my phone and I don't I don't have a Twitter account, I literally can't see replies. I can't click the user profile. I can't see any

707
00:46:47.630 --> 00:46:50.290
responses or anything. It's it's completely broken. Dumb.

708
00:46:52.484 --> 00:46:56.265
Was that a bad decision on x's part? Was it a necessary decision?

709
00:46:56.805 --> 00:46:58.184
And how does Noster

710
00:46:59.765 --> 00:47:03.625
it it that's an edge for Noster. You have to answer that question in the context of what

711
00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:07.430
where it's being asked. Like, the context of X right now is a business

712
00:47:07.970 --> 00:47:08.470
that

713
00:47:09.170 --> 00:47:09.830
has to

714
00:47:10.210 --> 00:47:10.950
make money

715
00:47:11.650 --> 00:47:12.150
and

716
00:47:12.530 --> 00:47:16.870
their their money right now is either selling a premium account or advertising

717
00:47:17.744 --> 00:47:19.684
and logging in is important to that.

718
00:47:20.545 --> 00:47:21.684
For for Noster,

719
00:47:22.305 --> 00:47:28.964
like, one of the beauties beauties of of Twitter in the early days was that I could text from my phone to our short code 40404

720
00:47:30.224 --> 00:47:32.805
and it would create a permalink web page

721
00:47:33.500 --> 00:47:35.359
that anyone could see immediately,

722
00:47:36.700 --> 00:47:38.480
and then the conversation would build.

723
00:47:39.020 --> 00:47:41.920
So it was literally the fastest way to reach the world,

724
00:47:42.380 --> 00:47:46.880
and I think that's what grew it. It's because I know it doesn't matter what device I put this into,

725
00:47:47.705 --> 00:47:52.685
it's going to something that every single person in the in the world could read immediately. And

726
00:47:53.865 --> 00:47:59.085
without an account and without logging in, and I think that that's what made the public conversation

727
00:47:59.385 --> 00:48:00.365
the public conversation.

728
00:48:01.370 --> 00:48:11.310
And that's what made Twitter, in my view, a news app. Like, when when I was CEO, we pulled Twitter out of the social network category in the App Store,

729
00:48:11.770 --> 00:48:13.070
where we were 20,

730
00:48:13.785 --> 00:48:16.444
and we put it in the news category in the App Store,

731
00:48:16.744 --> 00:48:18.285
where we were number 1.

732
00:48:19.145 --> 00:48:20.924
And we did that globally

733
00:48:21.545 --> 00:48:22.045
because

734
00:48:23.145 --> 00:48:23.964
it's news.

735
00:48:24.505 --> 00:48:28.525
It's literally new, new, new, new, new, new.

736
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:29.579
And

737
00:48:30.200 --> 00:48:35.420
that that speed is is really important, and it's speed of the access of information,

738
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:37.180
it's speed of the interface.

739
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:42.140
And if we want any hope in competing with that use case,

740
00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:46.675
we need that we need that speed. We have it. Like, I in terms of, like,

741
00:48:47.135 --> 00:48:49.315
a technology that it can put something out,

742
00:48:52.335 --> 00:49:03.490
where I know it's going to be up and I know it's going to be readable by every single person in the world in a format that they can consume, to me to me, the the the best answer right now is Nostra.

743
00:49:04.029 --> 00:49:04.690
It is,

744
00:49:06.029 --> 00:49:11.569
because everyone can read it and the and the consumption side of it is extremely, extremely critical

745
00:49:11.869 --> 00:49:12.529
and important.

746
00:49:13.365 --> 00:49:16.105
We have some issues with the URLs we produce

747
00:49:16.805 --> 00:49:24.905
and and how things are cached and how, you know, the the page is constructed and it's a little bit slow, but if we focus on that and be become the

748
00:49:25.205 --> 00:49:26.745
permalink for all conversation,

749
00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:29.400
in the world, which I think we can,

750
00:49:30.980 --> 00:49:49.215
you know, it's it's something that people turn their heads to more and more because like there's it's not it's now not just the fastest way to put something out. It's the most durable and resilient place to put something out because no one can take it down except for me, my the author. And right now you can't even do that.

751
00:49:52.315 --> 00:50:03.480
But the but the fact that a government can't do it, a company can't do it, it's a it's the fastest place, it's the most stable place, the most resilient place, and most durable place, and and those are some pretty powerful attributes.

752
00:50:08.580 --> 00:50:11.160
But just real quick, just to drill into that.

753
00:50:12.525 --> 00:50:16.625
Do these walled gardens that are popping up all throughout the centralized Internet

754
00:50:17.724 --> 00:50:20.625
are obviously bad for users. It's a worse user experience.

755
00:50:21.565 --> 00:50:35.880
The the argument that's being made by leadership, at least internally and sometimes externally for publicly facing companies, is that it's gonna be better for business, that they wanna control their product and the users of their product, so they don't want that content out there. Do you think it's actually a good business decision?

756
00:50:38.100 --> 00:50:43.255
It depends on the business model. For the for the business model of advertising, it it it it helps

757
00:50:43.635 --> 00:50:45.015
because you get more identity,

758
00:50:45.395 --> 00:50:47.735
and more identity leads to better targeting

759
00:50:48.115 --> 00:50:54.615
for for the advertiser. Yeah. But it's ultimately gonna be the kill shot. Right? It's what it's how Nosta really takes over everything.

760
00:50:56.630 --> 00:51:01.210
This is a statement you wanted to make instead of the question you asked. There was a question mark at the end.

761
00:51:02.310 --> 00:51:03.930
Yes. Yeah. I I'm

762
00:51:04.310 --> 00:51:06.330
I'm a believer in protocols over

763
00:51:06.710 --> 00:51:08.090
over platforms, obviously.

764
00:51:09.085 --> 00:51:11.505
I believe that companies can benefit

765
00:51:11.965 --> 00:51:15.905
from protocols. I'm building a company that benefits massively from protocol

766
00:51:16.285 --> 00:51:17.745
and that protocol is Bitcoin.

767
00:51:19.805 --> 00:51:20.305
And

768
00:51:21.460 --> 00:51:29.400
recognizing that and being able to contribute back to it and recognizing the fact that, like, it truly love it's the only thing that levels the playing field for us,

769
00:51:30.980 --> 00:51:37.695
inclusive of, like, all those open protocols that the Internet has provided. And I hope all the open source and open protocols

770
00:51:38.235 --> 00:51:44.015
that AI will provide us in the future instead of, like, having 5 CEOs make all decisions around these models.

771
00:51:45.675 --> 00:51:53.610
You know, we I can build a fantastic business on top of that and others can as well and it doesn't favor our business versus other businesses.

772
00:51:54.390 --> 00:51:59.530
So I I think open is always the way to go, but, like, I understand that businesses will have

773
00:51:59.990 --> 00:52:03.610
will have different decisions based on, like, what their what their model is around.

774
00:52:04.205 --> 00:52:07.505
Fair enough. I think it's a ship business decision, though.

775
00:52:08.125 --> 00:52:09.345
I guess we'll find out.

776
00:52:09.725 --> 00:52:12.945
Do you have any final thoughts for everyone before we wrap?

777
00:52:16.520 --> 00:52:19.099
Thank you. I mean, it it takes a lot of time

778
00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:23.099
and it takes it takes a lot of time, one, to even consider this concept,

779
00:52:24.040 --> 00:52:27.900
to come all the way out here, some some of you away from your families and your friends

780
00:52:28.200 --> 00:52:29.339
for these few days,

781
00:52:30.335 --> 00:52:32.035
for a conference that,

782
00:52:32.895 --> 00:52:36.994
while free, like we're not no one's paying you to be here and you're sacrificing

783
00:52:37.535 --> 00:52:38.115
a lot.

784
00:52:39.454 --> 00:52:41.155
Even if it's not a lot, it's meaningful.

785
00:52:42.080 --> 00:52:46.980
And the fact that we show up for something like this, I think says everything.

786
00:52:47.680 --> 00:52:49.300
The fact that we can have this conference,

787
00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:54.820
and that we can have this gathering, and that we have tons of amazing conversations

788
00:52:55.875 --> 00:52:59.255
says it all about the future of this this work to me. Like people

789
00:52:59.795 --> 00:53:00.855
are willing to sacrifice

790
00:53:01.155 --> 00:53:03.015
real tangible things to make this

791
00:53:03.395 --> 00:53:04.295
make this matter

792
00:53:04.835 --> 00:53:09.415
and, and that that means a lot. It means a lot to everyone here. It means a lot to

793
00:53:09.750 --> 00:53:11.130
to me that these things

794
00:53:11.510 --> 00:53:21.770
are appreciated and that we should continue doing them. I think that's what the new panel is about. We always have this, should we continue doing this? Like, should we do it every year? Where should we do it next? Wrap up panel.

795
00:53:22.550 --> 00:53:23.690
What worked? What didn't?

796
00:53:24.065 --> 00:53:26.305
But generally, I think it's working, and,

797
00:53:27.265 --> 00:53:29.045
I think we'll only benefit

798
00:53:29.985 --> 00:53:30.485
these

799
00:53:31.425 --> 00:53:36.085
permissionless tools, and I hope it inspires more conferences like this for different

800
00:53:36.390 --> 00:53:40.089
use cases and different permissionless tools that that we all know we need.

801
00:53:40.710 --> 00:53:41.450
Love it.

802
00:53:44.869 --> 00:53:47.450
Thank you, Jack. I appreciate you. Thank you.

803
00:53:47.750 --> 00:53:51.049
Use the tools. Try out Nostr. Play around with it.

804
00:53:51.586 --> 00:53:55.046
Freedom Tech is hope. Let's make this thing happen. Peace. Thank you.