Neville Godwin - It´s about the Player not the Coach

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 170, of Control the Controllables. And I hope everyone is well, wherever you are in the world. And for those of you that have been dealing with the heatwave of the last week or so. And that was me, as I was back in the UK, with my son at a Tennis Europe event in Repton. And it was brutal, the temperatures, it's all anyone was really talking about, but I understand why is there was nowhere to go. It was 33, 34 degrees in the morning, and it only got hotter as the day went on. But finding air conditioning was not so easy, but it was a great event. And I just want to firstly say a big thank you to the number of people that just popped up to me and asked me if I was Dan from Control the Controllables it's great to know and put faces to you that are listening to the podcast. So thank you for that. That really, really made my week and I hope everyone is enjoying the episodes as we continue to bring them to you. And today we have the ATP Coach of the Year 2017.

Neville Godwin  01:23

He plays a brand of tennis that is exceptionally scary to play against when he's in the correct frame of mind and there's nobody that nobody on any real surface. That is scary for him and

Daniel Kiernan  01:40

Neville Godwin. He was my coach for a few months and he was you know, one of the best coaches I worked with, you know, he started coaching a few of us at the at the LTA when we were we were at Queens Club. As he finished his playing career and a fantastic playing career he had as well he won an ATP Tour Title in Newport. He was as high as 90 in the world, in singles 57 in the world in doubles, at a great Junior record, as well making three doubles Grand Slam finals. And then he went on in his coaching career as well as coaching Dan Kiernan. He coached then even bigger names and Kevin Anderson, and helped him get to almost the very top of the game He then worked with and I don't know if many of you will remember Hyeon Chung who was was looking for greatness. You know, he was playing amazing match against Novak Djokovic a few years ago at the Australian Open. And unfortunately, it's had a lot of injuries to deal with. He spent a lot of time with him. And then recently, and when we had the chat he was Reilly Opelka's coach. Sadly, as in the world of tennis, this happens since our chat. And I hope not because of the chat, but over the grass court season is that came to the end, Reilly Opelka didn't quite get the results he wanted. And that as resulted in a change for himself. So Neville is currently not working with Reilly, but he has been over the last few months. It's a great conversation. He's a down to earth guy. He's got lots of knowledge at the game as a player, but also as a coach, and I'm sure you guys are gonna love it. So enjoy. Neville Godwin. Neville Godwin, we're in a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Neville Godwin  03:29

Really good. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me on the show. 170 episodes in

Daniel Kiernan  03:33

It's it's along those lines, but I'm not sure if you're my first ATP Coach of the Year. Did Facu Lugones win it last year?

Neville Godwin  03:48

Yeah he won Coach of the year last year, he showed that he got last year he won 2021, Rightly so Cam had a fantastic year. And he's they they're a fantastic team and they've really done a good job.

Daniel Kiernan  04:01

And what about Nick Bolleteri? Has He won one.

Neville Godwin  04:03

No, he's doesn't qualify because he's not he's not an ATP coach.

Daniel Kiernan  04:07

Is that right? Yes. So you're my second you my second ATP Coach of the Year. You're currently in, I believe a sunny UK everyone's telling me the weather's nice

Neville Godwin  04:18

Kind of heatwave. Exactly.

Daniel Kiernan  04:20

With the giant that is Reilly opelka. You know, exciting career ahead. And and a great a great pleasure to be working with on the back of your success with Kevin Anderson, and also Chung who I'd like to get into him a little bit later. But my first question Nev, there's an exhibition event. It's known as our greatest tournament. In our industry in our sport, we all love it from a coaching point of view. And as a player, does it mean any less now that it doesn't have ATP points.

Neville Godwin  05:01

Great question. And just being around the guys, the last week or so, particularly now in the grass, there's still a desire, there's a massive desire the guys, I thought that more guys that potentially didn't need that, you know, maybe we look we look at, like, didn't need the money, who definitely wouldn't like to play on grass, and we're sort of like a second or third round would be a maximum result for them. There's a bunch of those kinds of guys. And I'd rather not use names obviously, that are that are playing. And I mean, and I'm a little bit taken aback by it, because, you know, the guys tend to generally I don't say complain, but the theory, the feeling is that there's too much tennis. And I think I think this would have given a lot of guys a great time to prove a point for one, you know, back the Russian players. And it also would have been another time for them to sort of say, Okay, well, this is this gives me a great opportunity to take three or four weeks out of the season. And, and rest up and really prepare because after this, you know, once you start on the US summer, it goes all the way through the US Open this Davis capital literally right after followed by Laver Cup for some followed by trips to Asia, followed by a trip back to Europe. There's a lot of tennis still going in the season. So this would have been sort of a natural window to take a breather. I don't really I'm kind of neutral on whether guys should not be playing. But I'm surprised at how many are playing.

Daniel Kiernan  06:34

What's your own personal feeling when the announcement was made? Were you surprised? Were you? Were you angry, frustrated? Which side of that did you fall on? And has that changed? Now you've had time to reflect?

Neville Godwin  06:50

Look, I'm I grew up in apartheid South Africa. So you know, possibly I'm slightly more qualified to to comment on it. And we were not allowed to compete as a nation. However, we were allowed to compete as individuals, because, you know, obviously, you don't want to have people representing a particular regime. However, as individuals, I don't feel like you are you know, you as an individual, you're representing yourself. I don't think it was very fair. And not only on the Russians and Belarusians are the people who are not permitted to compete. So very unfair on the people that had a good result last year at Wimbledon who are just automatically going to be losing those points with no, no opportunity to defend them.

Daniel Kiernan  07:33

Do you think it was the right decision of the ATP to fire back? And I guess us they almost ought that was their that was their play? Wasn't it? That was there almost there only take back control play? Do you think that was the right?

Neville Godwin  07:49

Yeah, I think I think I think it really was the only ace up their sleeve that they had, they didn't really have, you know, they can't force players to not play. So that was the only real play that they had. Could it have been done in a better way? I don't know the exact ins and outs of it. I'm sure there was a lot more things at play than what we realize. However, you know, I, my personal preference would have been to play for points and just give the players they're not allowed to play a 52 week sort of leave of absence that they those points from 2021 were allowed to stay on for one more year, I think there would have been a much more fair way across the board to handle it.

Daniel Kiernan  08:36

And what happens next, because, as you alluded to 170 guests, on this podcast, there's often been quite a big topic, the fractures of tennis, the seven different governing bodies that aren't necessarily married up, which, which for the sport, can cause problems. So something like this, I know, the US Open came out a few days ago and said, We're going to allow everybody to play. So it seems like nobody's really on the same wavelength. So where does this go next?

Neville Godwin  09:10

You're spot on and, you know, even so much as this is the first year 2022 where the grandstands have actually all agreed on a you know where to have a tiebreaker in the fifth set for the men and women you know, this is the first year which is kind of ridiculous we've had three situations that if to my knowledge were matches have gone crazy long in the history of tennis, and now we all of a sudden shutting down exciting matches of 10 eight or 1210 or 1412 You know all the drama of that. That creates drama that's what people want to see we've had three situations that have gone crazy long and that's about it it for that lets you know we're changing the whole scoring system, which to me doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Daniel Kiernan  09:53

In you were sat in the box I believe for one of those matches.

Neville Godwin  09:56

No, no, no, I fortunately or unfortunately I was not Because I stopped working with Kevin in 2017. And he his final run was in 2018. Right. Okay. Yeah. So I was not on that for that one. But it's intriguing. I mean, I think it's a great, it's great to watch.

Daniel Kiernan  10:12

Because what I was gonna ask you was, how did that affect him? Then for the final?

Neville Godwin  10:18

Yeah. And I mean, I know him, and I know him well enough to know that this is pretty close to impossible to turn on to turn the ship around on off or something like that, you know, so he obviously would have had a lot of treatment, but just, it didn't really have an option. He could get well enough to play. But I don't think he was ever in with a real chat chance of winning that match.

Daniel Kiernan  10:40

But is that not the argument? No. Because if we take the Isner match, sure. I mean, isn't. He's there in the next round? If you're if you're a gambling person, and you want to put some money on somebody, that was the match

Neville Godwin  10:55

The other guy? Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  10:56

I mean, he couldn't move. He couldn't know. He was done. Yeah. So

Neville Godwin  11:00

yes, you can argue that but I mean, you've had two of those. That's the only two that we've ever had. I mean, apart from it, if I'm if I go back to I think it was about 2005 or six when Andy Andy Roddick played Alan now in Australia, and it was, I think, 2017 or 2018, or something. Now, I can't think of any matches, even though even as long as those three, you know, sort of got isn't a hoot, isn't it, Anderson, and Roderick against Elena. We those are the only three I can think of him and how many matches that we have in Grand Slams, you know, the last 130 years? Yeah. So I you know, it's just, it's just, it's just curious to me, but that do it. So. But getting back to your original question as to where we're going now and in tennis. It's kind of feels like it's golf. You know, they've kind of thrown some some, some dollars at a different program in tennis, I don't think can go that way purely because I don't think we have enough players. You know, I think Golf has way more players in terms of they have the PGA Tour, they have the European tour, they have the sunshine tour, they have the Asian tour, they have the Korn Ferry tour, they have many more tours, whereas tennis, we've got one tour, you know, if you start taking guys away from from the ATP tour, I think we're going to be left with a bit of a diluted product.

Daniel Kiernan  12:23

But with that not I mean, we saw the Dutch guy, Tim Tim vote, right? And when the ATP event ranked to two to five, right? If there was, if there was two tours, would you not then see a growth in in level because all of a sudden, you've maybe got 500 or 600 tennis players that are making a living rather than 200?

Neville Godwin  12:49

Yeah, and you make a good point. And I would I definitely think that we should have more. Just do we have enough? I mean, we complaining always now about do we have enough is enough money in the sport that isn't being utilized correctly? I mean, we've got this big let's go with inverted commas exhibition and that are paying a record record prize money. I mean, it's just it's kind of beggars belief. And it's kind of ridiculous, isn't it?

Daniel Kiernan  13:13

Maybe me and you can get our rackets but out back out. And if there was another two week, we take the Saudi, wouldn't we? We plan.

Neville Godwin  13:22

There's been a lot of tennis players signing up for the Saudi tenders to there hasn't been material.

Daniel Kiernan  13:30

So a lot of them are probably in Tunisia, Egypt right now.

Neville Godwin  13:34

Yeah, quite possible.

Daniel Kiernan  13:35

But I asked this question Nev, to everybody that comes on, because what interests me and I guess what interested me when I set this podcast up was surely there's lots of different stories out there. You know, there's, there's many different ways that you can go with a tennis get into tennis, use tennis, you know, that agents, journalists, physios, tennis coaches, you know, people that have used tennis to go into another aspect. However, the common the common story has been parents were tennis coaches, took me down to the local club, started playing tennis from a young age, and then got in, enrolled in the sports, almost just through osmosis, or the way that it goes in the seems to be very few stories of people that found the sport away from that. So I'm gonna ask you the same question. Are you different? Are you are you one of the many?

Neville Godwin  14:41

That's how I learned the game. I've got two sons and I feel like Europe will always be fine in that regard, because the club scene in Europe is so so strong. And it's a very common thing on the weekend to go to the club and you know, we're going to play tennis or golf. A paddle, we're going to have a bite to eat, we're going to swim, we're going to do whatever it takes with in a lot of other USA, obviously, they have a big country club sort of culture, as well. So countries like South Africa, and I think in Australia as well, I think they're just struggling a little bit more. So your question was, am I a product of someone going down to the club? Absolutely. I mean, I was the youngest of three kids. I was just had to, and I was very fortunate I grew up in South Africa in the 80s, was not uncommon to have a tennis court and in your actual house, didn't mean we were definitely wealthy, very much middle class. But we just haven't, we had a lot of space. So I grew up the youngest of three boys. And basically, my father built an extra extension on the practice wall. And if I wasn't good enough, my brothers wouldn't allow me to be on the court. So I had to put a lot of extra time in practice, and you know, very, very lucky and often, often you hear the story of someone being successful in sport is often the young younger of the other group of children's.

Daniel Kiernan  16:09

Absolutely. So you had parents that were involved in tennis? You were a third child?

Neville Godwin  16:16

Right? Yeah, my father was actually a coach. But that wasn't his full time job. He coached it on the side. And yeah, I mean, I've, I fell in love with tennis. And I just one of the things that I probably didn't love it that much. You know, when I started competing more, but I was just happened to, I guess one of the things if you if you're good at it, you there's a natural liking of it.

Daniel Kiernan  16:39

Yeah. And the third bit, so about having not, but then having brothers. The third bit is, and I've had quite a few South Africans from your era, that have been on the podcast, and coming from that era, and you've touched on it already, apartheid times. It seems like it also developed some pretty tough characters, you know, having gone through that period, would you attribute any of your successes as a tennis player, as a character to coming through that period?

Neville Godwin  17:14

Definitely. Because we, I mean, I'm sure you've explored the, you know, how we grew up, you know, we were, we lived an amazing life, not out of choice, you know, we didn't know what was going on. And a lot of a lot of the time, we didn't know, the prejudices that were happening, it was just part of our lives growing up, it was not something that we will, we kind of were aware of it, but not the depth of it. So by that, I mean, because we had such a heavy sanctions placed on us, we didn't have access to great equipment, we didn't have access to amazing books, or I mean, and in those days, we didn't have, there wasn't a lot of TV, you know, we could watch TV, but like, you get more women than Roland Garros, you know, in US Open, if you're lucky. So you have to figure things out for yourself. And I think that's definitely something that's helped me in my coaching career, as well as my playing career, they're probably more of my coaching career, that having to have had to think and figure things out for myself. I think it's helped me being able to communicate to the subject, what I'm actually trying to say and why I'm trying to say something, you know, and that's because we, you know, we there was no, I mean, if I got a coaching session, once a week, I was lucky. You know, and based on your weight, you you practice you went down to your mates house and you just designed a game and you play to get you played some games and you know, you didn't always play the sets or matches, and you had to figure out ways that you were gonna get better and then and go from there. So it's, it's definitely something that's helped me in my in particularly my coaching career.

Daniel Kiernan  18:49

But with your playing career, you were very good as a junior. You played the grand slams, I believe myth, three doubles finals of grand slams.

Neville Godwin  18:59

Yep. To finals and a win. But yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  19:03

So. So how did you compete globally? Because I guess it's one. It's one thing to, to have that and then maybe rise within your country. And the fact that you're, you've got to the level where you are competing at the highest junior level there is in Grand Slams, how was that journey? You must have? You must have got your volume somewhere.

Neville Godwin  19:30

Yeah, I mean, I think we were we're pretty lucky because there was actually quite a bit of money in tennis in South Africa. At that time, we had some really good events until there was some sponsorships to grow tennis in the country. I mean, you look, the guy's born sort of between let's go between 67-68 all the way through till about 1972. They had a lot there was a lot of tournaments. There was a lot of, you know, when a South African open, and there was a lot of money being put into the game to run squads, national squads, National Training squads. And to travel with coaches as a group. I was very fortunate born in 1975, I caught the very tail end of it. I didn't get, unfortunately get the benefit of the tournaments. But I got the benefit of the coaching and the training. And I was lucky that my very first trip overseas was actually when I was 12 years old to go play orange ball. And I had pretty decent amount of success in that trip to kind of take me into a different thought process. If I could think of it that way. In terms of like, okay, I think I came third in the Orange Bowl reached the semi finals, you know, as a 12 year old. And that kind of made me realize, okay, well, I'm actually a global player, I'm not a national player. And that's kind of I was fortunate every year to be able to gauge myself on international level by going back to Florida every year to play an Orange Bowl or go to Europe to play on clay or something like that. And I think that was something that really helped me because I kind of always knew already, even from a young age that I was at least good enough, in my age, internationally.

Daniel Kiernan  21:16

And given that success, as a junior given that you were you were right there with with the best in the world, in your age groups. Do you look at number 90 in the world, I believe, was your highest singles ranking 57 in doubles? Absolutely. I look at that as a success. Do you reflect and look at that as a success? From where you were?

Neville Godwin  21:44

Um, yeah, I mean, I had, I had a fairly complex career, because I kind of got left out in the cold at 18 years old. You know, obviously, that's when South Africa became apartheid laws ended. And they were there was no more financial help, So then I kind of for two, three years, I was kind of out in the wilderness a little bit to kind of really finding my own way with not much help. Not much assistance from training with other guys. The other South Africans that were significantly older than me were, they did an unbelievable job really helping me as much as they could. 19 Yes, it was good. But I think if I'd had someone with me more often, I think I would have been had more lofty goals, you know, kind of like the top 100 goal in mind. And I achieved it when I think I was 21. And then I achieved it again, later on in my career. But it was a little bit to stop start, there wasn't enough consistency. Yeah, I think I could have had a better career if I had more consistency. And I'd had someone with me more often have more of the time, you know, to bounce ideas off of to keep me on the straight and narrow if you like, and be disciplined and pick better schedules, etc.

Daniel Kiernan  22:58

So if you had your, your journey again, what would you do different?

Neville Godwin  23:04

I, at that stage, I probably would have gone to college in the US, I think they would have, I think they would have really helped me a lot at 18. I was I shouldn't I don't want to say but I was very good. But I was already sort of like 250 in the world of ATP. But I wasn't, I hadn't learned enough about the game yet. You know, I was a little bit one dimensional, didn't really didn't want to play on Play, didn't know how to play on clay, you know, hadn't spent enough time working on my body. So I don't think I would have gone to college for four years, but probably two years. And I think they would have been really good for me just to get a ton more data in a lot of matches under my belt, I think that would have been really good for me.

Daniel Kiernan  23:50

I think that's amazing for listeners to hear. Because you were you were 250 in the world. Two years later, you were 90 in the world, you still reflect that you should have gone to college.

Neville Godwin  24:04

Yeah. And also because, you know, but one of the other reasons when I was I was on a tour and I didn't get that sort of I was playing tennis, having the sensation that I've missed out on things. You know, and I think if I'd gone to college, I would have you know, I think you yourself went to college. So you know, I would have had a good time I would have known went to party went to being serious and would have got the enough data for my system and my system. And so, kinda by the time I got to 2526 as a professional, I was completely cooked. I was exhausted. And I mean now you see guys traveling 3334 3536 years old is pretty normal. You know, and I mean, I was I think I stopped playing was 27 or 28. So I really believe that if I'd gone those extra couple of years to college, that may have given me some more longevity on the on the other side of my career. That's kind of more what I'm alluding to

Daniel Kiernan  24:59

and how to As obviously, we know you was ATP Coach of the Year with Kevin Anderson. So you had a great journey with Kevin. He was a college guy. And did he reflect very positively on his college time?

Neville Godwin  25:14

Absolutely. Because I mean, it Kevin will be the first person to tell you that he actually was not that good a junior, you know, and he had to really go and learn his trade and at college and get out there and practice. And you look, I think the college system has changed a little bit. I don't know if they're play as many matches as they did before. And obviously some some new rules involved. But I still believe that just I think they're going a little bit over the top with the celebrations and you know, how they carrying on in courts and they're not and then applying sort of, it's not really it's still matches, but it's not really that it's not close enough to to a level matches. You know, with all the people screaming and shouting and coaching and stuff. It's I think it's gone a little bit too far. And two point you guys kind of come out of college and they go on a tour and they just they're like, holy cow, this is just nearly two different you know, so they need to really have a think about that and maybe try pull that back a little bit if they can, I don't know how they would. But you know, of course they're having fun, but a lot of guys go to college with the with the intent of playing professional afterwards. So that could be one thing too for them to consider.

Daniel Kiernan  26:24

Well, I I couldn't do it if I'm honest. After when I came out of college, and that was 20 years ago. So I remember playing a futures in Glasgow. Alright, on the far court people are watching through the glass four courts away. And I remember thinking, what the hell's this? How, yeah. How do I get myself going?

Neville Godwin  26:50

Exactly. Because you're so used to, you know, being pumped up and playing? Yeah, all of those things. And I don't know, I'm sure you've seen some of the latest social media footage. But I mean, the guys are going absolutely crazy. And I think it's, it's a little bit too much.

Daniel Kiernan  27:07

Yeah, no, I think it's a point I hadn't thought of before. I think it's a really good point. And I think it's a good reflection moving you into, and I'll be fine. When we had a little chat. You said something around the modern, the modern game, you know, and you're someone who now have been around the sport for 35 years at an international level. Two questions. One, what hasn't changed? So is there anything in the game that 35 years ago, it was there? And in 2022? It's still there? I'll get to the second question.

Neville Godwin  27:49

Yeah, I mean, I think you still have to have skills, you actually, you actually have to have skills. And you have to you have to have a very good serve, you cannot you cannot compete now without a good serve. And you have to understand yourself what you need to do to win. And I think the guys that that are, are they having a lot of success, they understand their game, they understand the brand. And they are that hasn't changed. They they know what they doing and what how they want to impose himself on a match. And they just gonna go ahead and do it.

Daniel Kiernan  28:28

And what has changed? What's the modern day tennis? And what's the biggest things that have changed in the last 510 15 years?

Neville Godwin  28:36

So you're dealing with bigger athletes overall would be my would be my number one thing, guys. I mean, if I go back to when I played, you know, I was joking, I said, Todd Martin was sort of six foot five and he was like the big monster guy. And then six foot five is not really even big. Now. You know, it's kind of fractionally above normal. You know, and guys are hitting the ball. They're hitting the ball unbelievably hard. They're training they're really doing a good job of taking care of their bodies. They are working incredibly hard in the gym they I mean the the gyms on site the gyms and hotels are just always busy guys are really working on that because the they are making more money they can afford to invest more in themselves. Like there's a ton of physios that travel on the tour. You know guys will still always be injured, but they rarely saw. I think the biggest thing that's changed is and we just spoke about a previously is that guys didn't really use to play much past 30 years old. And I think that now you'd kind of you wouldn't see anyone retiring before they sort of 30 years old. And that's quite a quite a significant change. We're getting similar to basketball. I guess basketball let me explain that question that basketball have I go back to me watching In college, again 20 years ago,

Daniel Kiernan  30:04

Your Michael Jordan's seem small. On the court. Yeah, he was six foot seven.

Neville Godwin  30:12

Correct? Yeah, Something like that. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  30:15

And then obviously your big guys were plus seven foot. And then you would have an Allen Iverson, who seemed really small. And he was six foot or 5'11. Right? When you'd get the odd, absolute freaks who were like five foot seven, five eight. Right? Do you think tennis is going that way? Certainly on the men's side, where you see 6'8 6'9 are the norm. And you need to be exceptional to be a Diego Schwartzman? Or do you think that nature of low center of gravity movement that some of the small guys have will always mean there's a place for them?

Neville Godwin  30:56

I think that there will always be a place for the small guys, will they ever become the norm that we get 68697 foot? I don't think so. But what is crazy is you got these guys at this, let's say really big size that actually are they can really move. I mean, if you had to pick C, Reilly doing a 40 yard dash, that people would not people with eyes would fall out of their head as to how fast they actually is. But then it made perfect sense. Because if he's got fast twitch muscles, you know, he is going to be fast. Because if he runs 40 yards, and the normal person does it in 14, 15 steps, he's doing it in 10 to 11 steps. So of course, he's going to be fast, I mean, if you look at the science behind the 100 meters, Usain Bolt really changed that because it's something like the average guy who's I think, I think they said, the average height for a sprinter is 510. And he's taking our fingers 40, 43 or 44 steps for a 400 meter dash, you know, bolts coming in at 6'3 6'4. And he's doing 41 steps. So essentially, he's running a race that is two to three steps less than everybody else. So that always will be a place because guys, as you know, Diego Schwartzman is only five, seven, but he's incredibly strong, he has to be an incredibly good ball striker. And I think the equipment is allowing that now, you know, there's the with the advent of strings, llenos, particularly Luxilon coming in and making a poly string guys are able to swing so much harder now at every ball, which is something that was not on the table sort of 25 years ago.

Daniel Kiernan  32:33

The examples you gave there, the big guys 40 meters 100 meters, isn't necessarily relevant to the movement and the changing of direction on the tennis court. Surely these big guys and you have a great eye in position on this. Kevin Agnes and I believe six foot nine, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Riley seven foot

Neville Godwin  32:59

suggestion around there somewhere. Let's go. So

Daniel Kiernan  33:03

What are those guys doing to enable them to move in, in an agile, directional change sports, because I hear and I'm not seeing it myself. But I hear Riley is a really good mover on the tennis court. He's put a lot of work into it.

Neville Godwin  33:21

I mean, he works incredibly hard. I mean, like, just this week as an example, because obviously, Wimbledon being, the joke is Wimbledon is pointless this year, you know, so it's a guys are actually starting to put in the volume of work now, sort of for the US summer and for the rest of the season. So I mean, he just he would have done. I think he's done two or three weight sessions, and he lifts pretty big numbers he would have done he did a track session yesterday. And he would have done two two footwork sessions this week. So as long as well as upper body strength and as well as practice itself.

Daniel Kiernan  34:04

And would that not be normal? 10 days, no

Neville Godwin  34:07

profit, probably not before a grand slam because you wouldn't want to be fatigued in any way shape, you know? So getting back to the original question. So he's working really, really hard on tiny little muscle groups to help him be more agile, more flexible, more, being able to move more in a tiny space.

Daniel Kiernan  34:26

Working with you, not that it's a bad thing, but because I've actually probably had a similar thing at a much lower level to yourself that the last three or four players I've worked with, I've got 250, 300 ATP, they've all been quite big men. It's quite big, quite big men who who just statistically looking to hold serve 90% of games or more, you know, that kind of that way that way of playing with In your last three players have been two very big men. Right? And then you've had a smaller ball striker, how much do you have to adjust the way that you coach, when we're looking at such different identities and physical makeups?

Neville Godwin  35:19

Well, the first, the first thing for me is always to try and learn my subject to try and learn about the player learn what how they actually want to play, you know, and it's often you see coaches, and you're, you're coaching and you're doing a really good job, and people will try kind of coaches will try and put their own stamp on a player, you know, and I think it's very, very important to, it's actually, it's always, in my opinion, a player led relationship. And the player is the one that's on the tennis court on the match court, and they're the one making decisions, they're the ones, you know, executing something that they are comfortable executing, and they've or they're the only person that's, that's been at every single one of their matches, so they have way more data than we could possibly have. And it's actually very important that they are playing in a way that they are comfortable playing. It took me it took me sort of the first 2,3,4,5,6 months is kind of like a learning period, because, you know, you could go in the first few months and have some great results and things are all great. But that's not really that accurate, because they've kind of doing things that they've already been doing. So you need to figure that out. And then when when things when they need to change the need to change surfaces, they need to change training regimen, that maybe you have a dealing with a little injury or something, then you see how they handle it, et cetera, you know, and you have to be flexible in your approach so that they can you allow them to free up and play the way that they want to play. And then obviously, you will, by observing you sort of start, you start seeing well, this is a pattern that is not good for us, or this is a pattern that is good for us. And you can work sort of go deeper into into into that way of analyzing things.

Daniel Kiernan  37:10

But do you not as a coach, it feels like we're in a world of where we are instant gratification world, and these young tennis players in particular, but these tennis players, they have agents, they often have highly involved tennis parents, they often have quite a big team around them that are demanding results for not always the right reason, you know, demanding results, absolutely. To hit the targets of the sponsor, to demanding results for so not all coaches are afforded that period of time to do that. Yes. So. So is that something not just in your own personal experience? But in terms of your experience on the tour? Is that something that you see, and then are coaches then more reactive to, let's get some quick wins, to have an impact? To give me my job, or rather than looking at the bigger picture and saying for you to have your career? And we're not on longer periods? This is the this is the way that I observe and feel.

Neville Godwin  38:29

Yeah, I mean, I think to answer your question, the first sort of two, three months or so are kind of more trial period if you like. And I think it's important, it's important to be like that. So whereby you're learning from the player as well as they are learning from you. And you see, well how do we communicate due to our communication styles match to our objectives lineup, do you know where when, when the agent foot first approached you, you know, it's important to have a an honest discussion and say, you know, I'm not the guy, if you want me to come in and change things and do things like this, and that it's very important to understand your own skill set and your own, you know, what you what you bring to the table. And, you know, I've been very fortunate in the players that I've worked with are they they have, they all have very high tennis IQs and they trust their own IQs and that's something I really encourage a lot. And, you know, and they they just kind of want another set of lies. You know, and I think that's it's an important and another opinion and someone is going to understand sort of what they're going through. And I think I definitely do not believe that you have to have been a really good player to be a good coach. But if you were a good player and you can communicate, I definitely think that helps a lot.

Daniel Kiernan  39:52

And there's a lot of talk around more of tennis players making money from the sport ought to like? It's obviously a hot topic. And once you get past a certain threshold, it rises significantly. You know, if you're telling your coach John, and you know, I go back to the day and and I was fortunate to be on court with you when you were working at the LTA if we take a torch working with a top 20, top 30 player that I would imagine there's a lot of there's, there's a fair decent wage that goes with that. If you're a coach that's working with someone whose 300 is in the world, yep, you're probably paying to coach them. You know? So in terms of coaching careers, and and how we make it a more desirable job to have, right? How do we go about that in the country? World?

Neville Godwin  40:58

Excellent, excellent question. Because I've been. So we've there's a program on HBO, it's called ATP coach program. And that is essentially how it's got about I think about 200 members on so for example, for Kindle, again, it's on the HP coach program here in Forrester. And it's pretty strictly monitored, you have to have been to a significant amount of tournaments as a coach. Or if you're a player, you know, there's a certain criteria that is, and we the main objective of this program, is to really try to highlight more, bring the coaches more into the frame of things. And, you know, so for example, I'm not sure if you're aware, but coaching is actually going to be allowed on the ATP tour. Okay. So, you know, we said, I'm going to be sitting on the side of the court, I'm going to HB, HB coach cap on, and I'll be able to coach me, but meaning communicate with my player, it's a one way communication. So he isn't allowed to ask me questions, I'm allowed to communicate with him. And obviously, only while he's on the same side as me. So this is something that we've been pushing hard for, for the better part of five years, because we, we honestly do not believe that our brand is professional coaches, is being recognized enough. And I think this is a major step in the development of coaches. And I think once people see how much value a coach can potentially have on a match, I think this is going to be a really positive move for coaches overall, you know, to see where, how it actually filters down into tennis. I mean, we all know the, you know, in junior tennis, if you're going to have our coaching, it's going to be it could potentially be quite a circus, you know, but I just to see the credit that coaches actually would get, because I don't think, you know, of all the professional sports are, you know, tennis coaches would have never really been top of the pile. I mean, you look at soccer, you look at Rugby, you look at all other sports, and coaches get so much credit, whereas in tennis, they get very little credit, or even recognition is maybe a better word.

Daniel Kiernan  43:15

And how much how much do you think you can influence a match and give us an example of how you feel you could?

Neville Godwin  43:29

I would say it's, so we would talk about in any match. You know, and coaches always talk about this, and players always talk about this, any match is only defined by maybe probably less than five points for a good tennis match, I would say you know. And if you can help your player win two or three more points, or lock into a different pattern for two or three more points, if that's gonna win three or four more matches in a year. That's a lot. Because whenever those matches are, you know, instead of losing this a second round of a 500, you potentially win one more match. And then maybe anything can happen off that you get a good draw, someone hurts themselves, someone pulls out, you know, anything can happen after that. So and as we know, tennis is a very fickle sport where confidence is earned, not given. And it cannot be sold. And, you know, players are pretty fickle in terms of if they're winning matches, they're playing well. If they if they're losing, they're playing badly when now we as coaches, we know that that's not actually always the truth. And, you know, if you can get a player through a mesh to win in perhapses, there's a level of confidence that will now grow, that can now affect and positively for the next week, month, whatever

Daniel Kiernan  44:59

and then Next question along the same lines nav, not just specific to you, but it might be your soul or a tennis coach is sole income is coaching a player? Yes, it's player led, however, you will have strong opinions, someone who's been in the game for so long. If you got against the player, potentially, you're losing your job losing your security, losing your your wage. Now someone with the records, you've gotten the longevity you've now had, maybe you've got confidence that that's not going to be an issue. But let's say young coaches coming in, it's their first opportunity to coach on the ATP tour. There seems like there's very little security for coaches is what I'm trying to get at Sure. It'd be kind of Yeah, I can get you can easily get dropped out. And then it's like, well, why the hell did I tell? Why did I tell Riley that he needs to cover his second serve a bit more? Because just lost my bloody job? Whatever it might be?

Neville Godwin  46:10

Yeah, so No, good question. Obviously, the most important thing is have a good deal in place, you know, have as many situations that you can put in your agreement, put them in. Secondly, you have to know your subject, you know, just get really take the time and get to know your player, get to know what what what information they actually want. On the on the match court, you know, what information is useful to them when information is not useful? Because you me as a player could could have required completely different information than what you as a player would want. So some players play on on instinct, some players play on statistics. And it's it's actually unimportant, what the coach wants. It's only important what the player actually wants. And it's very important as the coach to understand your player, learn your player and figure out how, you know, what kind of communication Do you like? How many What do you like? What information? Do you want to go into a dashboard with? What do you like plans? Do you like statistics? Do you like me to share statistics? Or do you want me to just tell you this, you know, cover this site of cover that site? What happens if I give you a statistic and the guy, let's just say for argument's sake, it's a 6040 statistic, and I give you the 60. And the guy, your opponent plays the 40. On that day, you know, where do we stand on that? You know, and it's very, very important. On any time that you're doing some any kind of analysis, it's going to be emotionless, any analysis with emotion is going to be poor analysis. And that's my opinion on that.

Daniel Kiernan  47:54

So I, from listening to you, albeit it will depend on the player you're working with. You are a fan of the the updated data analytics that have come into our sport the last few years.

Neville Godwin  48:09

Yeah, I mean, it's, there's very little data that is clear cut, there's a lot of data that is out there. I mean, I get tons of data all the time, and I get inundated frequently, with people starting up new data programs. You know, one thing that we have to remember is the guys that were everybody is, is getting data. So if you can get help your player to have better instincts, and to trust their instincts, that sort of can negate any data because we're playing against the best in the world. So if my play list, I'm serving the deuce side, I couldn't even tell you, Oh, the 6040 T two wide, you know what I mean? Because that could happen today. But tomorrow, I could feel it more the other way. So there's not patterns can be strong. But you have to understand that patents can all be changed, and everybody's getting the different data. So it's very, very important to to have a do to have go back to what I said earlier. Do you have skills to be able to trust your IQ and have an IQ that can that can you know, that can react on instinct,

Daniel Kiernan  49:29

Doesn't it depend on where you get your data from? So sure, if you're, if you're getting your data from a generic, a generic place that everybody's getting, whereas there's there's lots of players out there now, and I have to shout out. Mike James, a friend of mine who is working extremely hard in that field. And he's helping out Holger Rune right now. That data is then specific to your player. So it's, it can be used. And I know when Mike was helping out Iga Swiatek, their team wanted the data for player development reasons, they actually didn't want it for scouting reasons. It was actually used, all the data was Iga, specific. So that then at age 19, she's still in a big developmental part of her part of her tennis, it then helped helped focus the content for the next for the next period of work. Whereas I guess, and I remember what and Mike won't mind me saying this, he worked with Stan Wawrinka, who was in his 30s. And actually, he doesn't need it so much for his player development side of things. But he's then using it from scouting from a scouting point of view. It can be used in use in different ways. But it right, the thing that I see is, there's so many Blurred Lines, on on what is what and wants to find, as this wants to find is that, whereas if you're doing it from a personal standpoint, or you've got your own personal person, giving you that you can make the criteria for for the information that you're being given much, much clearer. Absolutely.

Neville Godwin  51:29

So. So there you have, it had brilliant points on both of those. So I, myself and Jay Berger is I myself work with Riley. And we tend to use the information much more on our player development side, you know, so, so to bolster our cases, we do use it for scouting stuff. But if I had to give a number, I'd probably say it's 70:30. So sort of we we want the numbers and Riley what are what are his opponents sort of seeing from him? That we can do a better job on, you know, on the practice court of getting better at what's where, which skills do we need to improve on which patterns can we do better? You know,

Daniel Kiernan  52:14

how, how good and how high? Can Reilly Opelka go? Let me let me share a quick story. And this is Mark Hilton, if you're listening, Lloyd Glasspool and Liam Broady. We were at a challenger event back in 2016, maybe, and Riley was there. And I said, this guy is a guaranteed top 50 player. And at the time, he wasn't that good. He was brave, got a big serve. And they were like, No way can't do this. You can't do that. If you serve like that, and you've got a bit about you bit of coordination, which he did. You're going to be top 50. Obviously, he smashed that is he's well on his way, how could you think he can be?

Neville Godwin  52:58

He most definitely can be a top tenner, he he plays a brand of tennis that is exceptionally scary to play against when he's in the correct frame of mind. And there's nobody that nobody on any real surface. That is scary for him. Because he I mean, he played Nadal and Indian Wells played a great match last 7-6 7-6 and had chances both sets to win the set. And that's as slow a hard court as you can possibly get. So we were talking off it, you know, How good could he be? And I said, I think he will honestly be at his very best in 18 months to two years time. And that's just growing, maturing learning your trade and being better. But I mean, you look at some of the results he's put up already. I mean, people go oh, Surely he's looking forward to grass courts season and clay's not his thing. The guy made the semifinals of Rome last year. Yeah, you know, he made the final of Canada last year. So he's already proven that he can play on the biggest stages and he's got wins over a lot of good players. So once he gets more used to being in the ranked in the top being seeded at the top, he's gonna be he's very dangerous because he's a scary on all levels.

Daniel Kiernan  54:14

And I have to ask you about another player who you worked with for a time. We saw him coming through, Chung and it was this guy soccer. Look how well he hits the ball. He's obviously been very unfortunate with injuries has been off the scene for a couple of years. How good was he?

Neville Godwin  54:34

I mean, I started with him in the end of 2017. He came out in 2018. And obviously had his famous run through to the semi finals of Australian Open. And then people kind of say, Oh, what happened and that was the last thing that well no, because he had such severe foot injuries. He actually also made the quarterfinals of Indian Wells He made the quarterfinals in Miami, and then his back startedjust for you to play up. But, you know, just very, very unfortunate with injuries. But he was a very special tennis player. And I mean, the way he could move the way he got hit the ball. And there was he played at times when he played well, he was the fastest I've ever seen his absorption skills, you know, his he could, he could turn defense into offense very, very quickly. And that, for me is often a good litmus test of how good a player is, is how quickly they can go from defense to offense. And he could he could do it all and people saw you know, is such a great ball striker, but he had really good high level of intangible as well, he could slice he could come in, he knew winter's to come in, you know, he, I mean, he he played a match when I first started with him, it's a funny story is he? He wanted to really change your service. I said, Okay, well, my first question is, is it ever going to serve volleys? Absolutely not. So I was like, Okay, fine. So then we obviously, basically serve on being a slightly more up and down motion, and giving him space so that we could be more offensive on his ball off to the surf. So you know, if the guy had a good return, and he playing a match, couple years, whatever, you know, later, maybe three, four months later, and he served and polish. It was the spot on perfect time to serve and volley and he came off the course and what the hell was that? You said? He never says what he goes, Yes, but the guy was going to he was just chipping every single return. So I was like, well, and that's the kind of high end talent, tennis IQ that really set him apart. I mean, he was, if you ever want to watch a great match, though, watch the match he played against Jocko which in the Australian Open in the in the fourth round? It was incredible tennis.

Daniel Kiernan  56:40

Yeah, it felt like he was he was the next thing. You know, it felt like he was already when he was competing with those guys.

Neville Godwin  56:48

Yeah, I mean, he got to 19 in the world. And I mean, he at 18 years old, broke the top 100 didn't like his forehand. So took three or four months away from the game and try and change his forehand grip completely. You know, that's the kind of that's a different mentality completely to nothing you've ever seen before.

Daniel Kiernan  57:07

Can he get back after being gone for so long?

Neville Godwin  57:11

It's gonna be very hard. I hope he can. I know. He's starting to slowly, slowly train now. And I hope his body is good. But he's missed. He's, he was a very well liked guy. And a lot of people liked his brand. So I really hope like their face, like when he gets back.

Daniel Kiernan  57:28

I hope so. I never I want to want to move on. I want to move on to my final little bit, I just like to ask you as much as anything else from a personal side, before we do our quick fire round at the end. And as I said earlier, alluded to earlier, I don't know if I ever said thank you. But I did love the work that I did with us. We had a great time. We had a great time. And I loved it. And genuinely I can. It does not surprise me in the slightest to see the success you've had I tell people all the time, the positivity, the simplicity. You know, those were two words that I absolutely remember from my time working with you. And I remember you sent me a message. I was having a tough time. And he sent me a message that said, form is temporary classes permanent. Yeah. And it was such a lovely message to get, you know, from someone you weren't necessarily paid to work with me. But you always you've always looked out for me. So thank you. And I mean that, you know, you've you've had a had an influence on me as a player, but more than that had an influence on me as a coach.

Neville Godwin  58:37

So it's kind of easy to say thanks. No, no,

Daniel Kiernan  58:39

I mean it. But the one thing that I do remember from that time, and you were you weren't far off, just stopping playing. But I remember you telling me, traveling is not for me. I've done my traveling, I've done my play, and then all of a sudden I was like, he's working with Kevin Andersen. Surely, that's gonna take some traveling. So how's the traveling? How's how's the reality of life away from family? You know, how long can that go for? And what's what's next 510 years for Neville Godwin?

Neville Godwin  59:20

Yeah, good question. Actually, at the time yesterday, I was definitely done with traveling. I spent 10 years at home. I've got two boys. My eldest has just started university this year. Wow. Yeah. My youngest is, is in high school. So and he's actually a boarding school. So you know, there was the time was right for me to take on a different challenge. And my family were incredibly supportive of it. I it was this there's always there's always moments that are too difficult. But one thing I've learned is that this kind of is the space I enjoy being in and this the space I have I feel like I belong in. And that's why the traveling is kind of like a byproduct of it. And it's just something that I do. It's, I travel for 30 To 25 to 30 weeks a year, but the rest of time I'm at home and I'm full time with my kids, my wife, my, my family, and, you know, it's, we have a good time and they they've really super supportive of me.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:28

So what's next?

Neville Godwin  1:00:31

I mean, I'm going to do this while I while I love it, and the I'm gonna I mean, I have no plans to not be in tennis. So it's, I always want to be in tennis is what I know is what I love. There's no greater feeling than helping somebody that wants wants to get better. And whether it be on a forehand for 70 year old over there beyond teaching a five year old how to run and hit a hit a hit or you know, hit a backhand or just just to serve this, it's such a reward, it can be such a rewarding job. And if you have the knowledge and you have the desire, I think it's one of the best jobs in the world.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:13

Absolutely. And what's next for tennis? Is is terrible. Is tennis in a good state is tennis. Do we have to be careful? Seems to me, Grand Slams are in a good place. However,

Neville Godwin  1:01:30

I think I think Grand Slams are in a good space. I think they have enough money. There's enough money in the sport right now to manage it for a while. We are going to miss the big three when they just decided to call it a day. I think we have enough future stars. I mean, particularly on the women's side, I think Swiatek is is unbelievably exciting. And I think she she's that good that she can just about she could dominate for as long as she wants to

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:01

Coco Gauff as well

Neville Godwin  1:02:02

Gauff, she's, I agree with that. She's also going to be very good. On the men's side, I think we've got, you know, a couple of guys that when they start winning more, you know, you really have Tsitsipas, you have Medvedev, you have Zverev of you have Alcaraz coming through you have Thiem these guys. There's a little bit of scar tissue there from from the big guys. But I think when they start winning them, they might just get a taste for it. And I think that we could be in for some pretty special because it's a very, pretty big crop of next young guys.

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:35

How special is Carlos Alcaraz? Because I, I am a massive fan. And I and I strongly believe we're looking at multiple multiple Grand Slam champion.

Neville Godwin  1:02:47

He's He's special, there's nothing that he cannot do. He he's got it all on on every level. So you know, he's gonna be it's gonna be a fun one too for the next couple of years. And he's he's got a great character for the game as well. He's people love him. He did. He does an amazing job with people he doesn't mean to over the media. And I think he is he's the real deal, that's for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:09

Are you ready for our quickfire round?

Neville Godwin  1:03:11

Let's go.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:13

What does control the controllables mean to you?

Neville Godwin  1:03:17

Well, I mean it's the things that are within your realm of doing or using you know control those things and things that that are out of your realm of possibles, leave them alone, they've got nothing to do with you basically, in a nutshell, what other people think of you is got nothing to do with us.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:38

Absolutely. Roger or Rafa.

Neville Godwin  1:03:41

Roger

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:43

ATP cup or Davis Cup

Neville Godwin  1:03:45

ATP cup.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:47

Are you a PTPA fan, or supporter or not?

Neville Godwin  1:03:54

5050

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:57

They've got to start doing something they said they gave us a promise and then they've disappeared.

Neville Godwin  1:04:01

I agree there hasn't been any substance from an initial big presentation

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:10

Forehand or backhand

Neville Godwin  1:04:12

Forehand

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:13

Serve or return

Neville Godwin  1:04:15

Serve

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:16

Singles or doubles

Neville Godwin  1:04:19

Singles

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:21

Favorite Grand Slam

Neville Godwin  1:04:23

Gotta be Wimbledon

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:25

Medical timeout or not

Neville Godwin  1:04:28

One a match

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:31

One rule change in tennis

Neville Godwin  1:04:35

I'm gonna go controversial here. Left lefties should start the they're the current ad side should be their first court should be actually the new schools.  I don't know why it's never been thought of before. Why? Three of the current point ending a game ending points are played to the current ad side. lefties favorite lefties Exactly. So If you just turn the court around, it makes it all fair.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:03

I know easy after 170 podcasts to come up with something you need for that answer. Well done. And you know what? I agree.

Neville Godwin  1:05:15

Yeah. Wait, wait, wait till you actually think about it more I promise you is gonna get in your head now.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:20

What's What are those lefties gonna say? They hate the idea

Neville Godwin  1:05:23

that every single time I suggest that they just say you should keep your mouth shut?

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:28

And who's who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables?

Neville Godwin  1:05:34

Oh, Robbie Koenig, the ATP sports sports commentator, act tennis commentator.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:39

He's absolutely on my list. And I would love I'm friends with him somewhere, some social media, but to have the hookup would be amazing. And we've had a couple of guests reach out and say he has to get Reilly on as well. So over dinner, maybe sometime you can drop that in as well. I'll throw in there for you. nev it's great to see. To see a massive thanks, you know, to, to get you coming on and apologies for my voice. But hopefully, the listeners want to hear my voice anyway. You've come with all your pearls of wisdom. Big big pleasure. Good luck to you and Reilly over the grass called season.

Neville Godwin  1:06:20

Cheers, Dan. Thanks so much, mate. Nice to see you. Cheers.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:23

Big thank you as ever, for listening and of course to to Neville, you know, giving his time up to share his experiences with us. And yeah, I unfortunately don't have Vicki. Next to me. Life has been busy. Summer is well underway here at the Soto Tennis Academy. And as I'm doing this, it's it's pretty late at night, actually. And unfortunately, we've been unable to do this together. So I apologize that you stuck with me. But I would like to share just a couple of my thoughts. And, you know, I think my takeaways from Neville, you know, my first takeaway, I think at times we can think of Coach has their philosophy has their way. And it's kind of my way or the highway. And what I what I love about Neville, when I worked with him, certainly seeing as he has had, the success with the players that he has worked with at the top end of the ATP tour is it is a very player led approach, you know, and it's him adjusting to what is needed. You know, every player out there has their own identities, they have their own ways, you know, they have their own contexts, why they do things, why they like to play a certain way, why they like to practice a certain way. And certainly the further up in coaching you go, the more that you have to make sure that you are providing what the player wants, whilst not being afraid to challenge them, and not being afraid to bring in new things. And that's something that certainly Neville has done very well. Interestingly, big successful a couple of the bigger guys, and you know, who got maybe not not the same game style, but similar game style, but then being able to adapt to a high Yong Chun the way that he plays as well. So that stuck out to me. The second bit on that is making sure the player is as absolute clarity of what they're doing. And as we go through that journey, and I always like to think of it a little bit like baking a cake. And as your as your in the younger age groups, you're very much giving them all the ingredients, give them everything that you possibly can coaches, you know, give them drop shots, give them slices, give them kick serve, slice serves, give them the possibility of serve volleying, drive volleying, moving back playing Moon ball playing heavy, playing flat, you know, give them as many tools as you possibly can. And then as you start to bake your cake, you need to know, what's the recipe, and is the recipe for a level of drizzle cake is the recipe for a carrot cake, you know, and you're picking out the right ingredients to be able to bring that recipe together to make the perfect tennis player. And that's certainly something that I really remember with Neville as well. He was big on talking about the strengths and using the right ingredients that work for your game style. And I often get asked what sort of age is that and I think it's a little bit level dependent. But ultimately, I think around the age of 14, you're starting to really have clarity on the way you're you want to be trying to play the game, you know, and I like to break that down into serve and return. You know, how are you holding serve? You know, and I think that's quite an uncompromising thing. You know, for you in the men's game and the women's game you need to be holding your serve a majority amount of time. So how are you doing that? And how what is your identity in order to do that? You'll change the tactics within now That's against different players maybe serve body against the person with a big wingspan, somebody who goes to the chip return, maybe you bring in a servant volley tactic, but ultimately that is uncompromising. Whereas in your return game, you have to be a little bit more reactive to what they are sending down at you. And I often use the example with players of Reilly opelka. If you're playing against him, you can't have much of a game identity, other than just Can I touch the ball and get it back in the court, where you play somebody else, then second serve returns, you know, you might look to dominate with speed with your forehand, or take the backhand early. And I think these are the things that you've got to start to really bring through as clarities from 14 years and older is certainly if you are going to be an international tennis player, as you're moving through so that stuck out to me how normal he is sticks out to me. It's been awhile since I've spoken to nev but yes is normal guy. He's a normal dude, Family Guy, yet he's been working at the top end of the game. And I think that gives us all hope. You know, you don't have to be this, this rockstar, this movie star to be a top tennis coach in our game. And my last one which I loved, absolutely loved. And I never thought of it. Never thought of it before, but I can't stop thinking about it. Now. You lefties out there, you've been getting away with it for years, having those big points played on the ad side. Let's get the lefty starting on the ad side their first point of every game, so that things are a little bit fairer. And what he means by that is we know that the wide serves is the most used serve. I think it's wide serve about 56% in professional tennis, and then the body serving tea serve is made up from there. So the wide serve that the lefty uses on the outside your big punch shot 3015 4030s 3040s All of these points, you've got those advantage the game ending point to be played on the side. That's why I've lost so many lefties in my time. I want those matches back. I want us to change that rule. I love it. Neville Godwin, thank you for bringing it to us. And thank you to all of you if you're still listening. You guys have a real hard cause. Thank you. Lots of great guests. We've I just last night I spoke to Ken Skupski, his retirement party, his retirement podcast. That is not a one to be missed. And many more great guests to come up. Go on. I'll tell you one, Pat Cash. That's a bizarre one when I'm texting him on my WhatsApp but Pat is fiery. I haven't spoke to him yet. It's in the pipeline. He spoke very openly about his thoughts about Nick Kyrgios and Wimbledon. I'm looking forward to exploring that and many more things with him. We will be back next time. But until then, I'm done. Kiernan we are Control the Controllables