Ken Skupski on his Retirement from Pro Tennis

DISCLAIMER: Please note we use a transcription service, so there may be some errors in the following transcription of this episode. If you can, please refer to the audio for exact quotations.

Daniel Kiernan  00:10

Welcome to Episode 171, of Control the Controllables. And my guest today will have brought a smile to so many of your faces if you've had the opportunity to watch him a legend of the British game, he's been on the tour now for 18 years, he's won ATP titles. He has been qualifying listed many Grand Slams as a doubles player over the last few years. At age 39, he's decided to call the end of his playing career. And a big, big well done for such a fantastic career that it's been

Ken Skupski  00:51

Most proud, as you know, is also making everybody else proud that I've that what I've achieved is, you know, someone can then look at me and say, yeah, you've maximized your career and, and you've gone on to play tennis for, you know, 18 years, which is, you know, it's a long time and in the tennis world in any sport, and I was able to play it at the highest level for quite a long time. Can you know, winning my biggest tournament at 38,

Daniel Kiernan  01:15

that's my college roommate, Ken skupski. And after 18 years of a tour, he's been as high as 44 in the world, he has lived his dream he's been on the tour, playing with his younger brother Neal skupski, winning that event together. Last year, as they came together to play out in Mexico, the ATP event is finished off his career Wimbledon recently, as he's made the third round with Jonny O'Mara, and gone out in style, you know, the fact that he's going out on his terms, to spend more time with his beautiful wife, Hailey, and his three gorgeous children, as well, he well deserves this retirement, he's got a bright future ahead, I'm sure, he's still going to have a big impact on his brother. He's opened up the Skupski Doubles Academy. And I'm sure that's going to go from strength to strength. And he'll have a lot of choices of what to do in this next phase of life. I certainly on a personal level, are so proud of what he achieved. I go back all of those years to 2001 as he came into my apartment, in Tiger land in Baton Rouge, the LSU Tigers, and he started his college career. Just as mine was ending, we managed to spend a year together as part as part of the team. And it was I saw then, that he had a bright future ahead, I certainly didn't think he'd be playing till he was 39. But here he is today, it's a pleasure to be able to talk to him and go through the highlights the lowlights, the challenges, the lessons, all of those amazing insights. And whilst I'm on the podcast, and I've got your attention, just to let you guys know, we will be having a short summer break not a long one to three weeks, just to recharge the batteries. And we will then be back in the next two or three weeks, possibly with a guest. But if not, it'll be our panel as we look at the US Open. And if you are one of the amazing people that have listened to all 170 episodes before this one, sure, you probably need a little bit of time off as well. If you haven't listened to all 170 episodes, then dig in, you know, scroll down that form of yours. There's many amazing guests for whatever you are looking at and let us know, let us know on social media, send us an email, all the details are in the show notes, put it out on social media let these these fantastic guests know how good they are, how invaluable their knowledge, insights and time is. You know, when I read something on social media or read a message, I always send it to the guests and they're always over the moon to receive that type of feedback. So please, please, please do reach out. But with no further ado, I am going to pass you over to Ken Skupski. So Ken Skupski A big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Ken Skupski  04:23

Yeah, not too bad mate how are you?

Daniel Kiernan  04:25

I'm very well, um, we've just spoken for two hours before the podcasts even started. It's it's great to reminisce with my my old roommate. And I have to start by saying on behalf of not just Control the Controllables but everyone in tennis, a big well done a tip of the hat for an incredible career that you've had over the last 1618 years. And it's all come to an end so how does it feel?

Ken Skupski  04:57

Yeah it was a bit surreal obviously it was it I thought about the opportunity to call it time a little bit a while ago, because I'd started to have a little bit of a niggle with the shoulder. But I wanted to finish it with more than I think that Wimbledon was the sort of the best place to do it. It's the pinnacle of the sport for me. And I wanted to go out playing well, I didn't want to think about, you know, carrying on for a little bit longer and sort of just dwindling away into the distance I wanted to, you know, I wanted to play well, I wanted to finish my career and look back at it and think, yeah, I gave a good shot. And fortunately, Johnny and I played really well at Wimbledon this year. And we did fall in three straight sets, which was a bit of a disappointment. But the first two matches we played, we played great. And I think I got a stat today that we were the only team to have not dropped serve in the first two rounds. So we were in we were in great form up until that last match. And it was just a shame that we came up against better opposition opposition on the day.

Daniel Kiernan  05:52

And in terms of that, like when you're 39 years old, dare I say it? When you're starting to, to think about stopping, and I guess you get to 36, 35. And people start asking the questions, and you've got a young family, three kids a very dedicated wife who has watched you travel the world for the last X amount of years. When was the decision made? When did you know that Wimbledon 2022 was going to be your last event, I

Ken Skupski  06:27

think to put into context and going back a little while. I think when Neil and I split and Neal started to play with Jamie, it was a bit of a concern because I always thought in my head that when Neal and I were playing together, that Neal will be my last partner, that's where everything would stop, we'd get to a stage where I was a bit too old, wasn't playing that. Well, Neil have go on and play play with someone else. So it was a little bit of a shock to the system when he got the offer, in some ways, because I think people just assume that brothers will always play together. But going, you know, going back really far, when when I played with flembo. At the start, the biggest disappointment that I had was to not split up with him when we were sort of ranked at our highest to get into the biggest tournaments. So I knew the opportunity when it came around for Neal to play with someone top 10 that I wouldn't want him to miss that opportunity because I was 35 I think at the time, and I knew that maybe that's considered the twilight of my career, that he would then go on 40 I think in the rankings, so then play with someone rank seven, and make that jump, which he did, he made the jump he got to the top 20 I think it was roughly and obviously unfortunately, it didn't work out for them to and the chance for us to play again together sort of gave me a, you know, made me excited again, and not considering stopping, but my tennis wasn't going necessarily as well as I would have hoped. But when we got back together, I felt like I was playing with someone I probably shouldn't have been playing with from a ranking perspective. You know, who's who's 17 in the world gonna take on a 37 year old, you know, rank 45 He's never really done anything 30 in the Masters level, so to get to get back playing with Neal was it just gave me so much more excitement and I thought you know, I'll give it my best shot for however long it could do it. And, and we did we play great. And you know, we won Acapulco, which was the pinnacle of my career in terms of tournaments, one, but the problem was a week later, I was in hospital wondering if I'd ever play tennis again with blood clots. And that and that scared the hell out of me. And I never really felt like I got back to where I was prior to getting the blood clots. I I sort of played okay at certain weeks, but I just never felt like I knew Neil was going to have to go and play with someone else. After that we did play a little bit, but not something that was going to be long term, did well with Jonny O'Mara winning Sofia, which I played really well. But then after that, I just never really hit top form again, and sort of the start of this year with a bit of a shoulder problem that I've had for a while. I just I just felt it was the right time to sort of let's get to Wimbledon and give it my best give it my all and you know go through go through the pain because I felt like I was really struggling at one point. I had to change rackets because the racket that I was using just didn't really work for me at the time. The racket held for a little while, but unfortunately, I just sort of felt like Wimbledon would be the best time to stop.

Daniel Kiernan  09:40

And now that you've stopped, and this is why I wanted to talk to you because I think that moment when you stop and it's still very fresh, we're talking only only a few weeks ago. It tends to be quite a reflective period. And and actually I think if it's not the right time to stop It's probably the time that regret or thoughts that you've made the wrong decision. jumped to mind. So are you sitting here tonight feeling like absolute clarity, and comfortable that it's the right decision to stop now?

Ken Skupski  10:17

Yes, I don't think about playing times. I mean, I look at the results every day because I've got still got friends who play in. Obviously Neal's still involved, but I'm not looking thinking, I wish I was at, you know, Newport or Atlanta, or whatever. I have had a message actually from Johnny O'Meara, who would love to have you back playing. And, you know, I really enjoy playing with Johnny. And you know, we have a bit of a laugh and a joke about it. But I feel like it was it was the right time for me. So I'm completely fine with the situation. And again, as you were saying, before, with family, I knew my kids wanted me home more than anything. And obviously, to be home now have the whole summer with them. And just be just be dad for a while. And that's something that I'm really, you know, I've enjoyed so far. And hopefully we can have a few more weeks together before they go back to school.

Daniel Kiernan  11:07

So before we move into some reflective questions, which I want this to be about you, you reflecting and sharing your knowledge and, and your wisdom and everything that you have from your career. We normally have a quick fire round at the end, but it's a Ken Skupski retirement special. So we're going to lead you in with a little quick fire about yourself. So let's see what your your knowledge of yourself is. The first question, your highest ever, ATP doubles ranking

Ken Skupski  11:47

44 three times

Daniel Kiernan  11:50

three times over 12 years. Couldn't get past that number. No. This is this is going to be a magic number for you for for many years to come. And not that long until you actually 44 years old. So you'll have a whole year to reflect on. How many ATP tournaments doubles, did you win?

Ken Skupski  12:16

ATP 250. And 500 will be seven.

Daniel Kiernan  12:20

With how many different partners?

Ken Skupski  12:24

Or you're

Daniel Kiernan  12:26

good, you're good. ATP challenges.

Ken Skupski  12:30

wins. 35

Daniel Kiernan  12:36

you're not that good, man. What do you want? 33. And, and future

Ken Skupski  12:44

partners for that one?

Daniel Kiernan  12:45

I'm not asking we don't have that long. What? What about what about IETF? Pearl circuit future events?

Ken Skupski  12:52

Oh, that's easy. 15 Oh, look

Daniel Kiernan  12:55

Get this guy. How many how many Wimbledon's did you play?

Ken Skupski  13:01

Does include juniors?

Daniel Kiernan  13:03

No.

Ken Skupski  13:04

14.

Daniel Kiernan  13:06

Very good. And how many Davis Cup teams were you on?

Ken Skupski  13:11

In the team actual team twice.

Daniel Kiernan  13:15

I thought it was three times.

Ken Skupski  13:17

I was I was in the squad for Poland. But I never got selected for the match.

Daniel Kiernan  13:22

And a little fun question Who was the first person to jump on Andy Murray. When he won when he was when he won the Davis Cup in Belgium. First or second? I know Liam was the first Leon first and the second

Ken Skupski  13:35

may have them.

Daniel Kiernan  13:38

Then you have your practice partner that week.

Ken Skupski  13:41

Yeah, Leon was ery kind to ask me to come along to practice. Awesome. They were. They were obviously playing up against a lefty with Ruben Bemelmans. And I think they assumed that he was going to be playing maybe part of the doubles. So there's a bit of doubles practice. But then he got roped into the singles with I think Steve hdacis was maybe injured. And then all of a sudden hours you know, on center court warming Andy up, you know, cold, you know, almost stadium, and he's asking me to rip some second serves to him and there was like, losing my shoulder. It was like minus two degrees. But yeah, obviously it was it was an unbelievable experience to be there and get them through

Daniel Kiernan  14:24

a historic moment that I think any of this generation, you know, will will will look at and fondly look at you know, the videos, the watching it on TV, but to be there to be part of the team and to be there the second person after Leon to get on top of Andy afterwards. Is that Yes. Is that your greatest ever experience in tennis?

Ken Skupski  14:51

For me, obviously it's a team sport, but to see the the focus that Andy went through that week would definitely be something that was eye opening it was, it was, it was so inspiring to sort of understand the stresses, I think that he has to go through to deal with all the different, you know, the on court and the off court. You know that it's such a team event that Dave has got, but I'm a bit of a bit disappointed that it's not like that no more. But yeah, a fantastic week. And anytime you get to obviously represent your country or be part of it. I think it is extra special.

Daniel Kiernan  15:28

And my last little question, how many official matches? ATP, ATP plus grand slam matches? Have you played in your career?

Ken Skupski  15:40

Played?

Daniel Kiernan  15:44

ATP tour and Grand Slam? This is not challenger,

Ken Skupski  15:48

Not amateurs. I'm gonna say 400

Daniel Kiernan  15:54

301. Okay. It's a lot. It's a lot of tennis matches at the highest level of our sport. And that's why for me, this is such a fascinating conversation. Because you've been there, you know, you've done it. You've you've been quarter finals at Grand Slams, you've been around it. You've played Davis Cup. You've been there when GB won the Davis Cup up there when you brothers won Wimbledon. You've, you've played World Team Tennis, you've played college tennis, you know, you've played Junior grand slams, you know, you really have been around it, you've had British tours, you know what I mean? You've done it, you've done, you've done the whole the whole spectrum. So if we go back across that, my first question to you is what's your biggest regret of the last 20 years?

Ken Skupski  16:46

Biggest regrets. I mean, from a personal perspective, when it comes to like playing at the top end of the sport, I was lucky to play a lot of grand slams. But I was desperate to try and play Master Series events. Because I actually never got to play any. I think that that that my first regret going back to playing with flembo, we were very close to play him on one time. And we missed out I think by one spot to Andy and Ross. And I thought I were going to play Master series, no big deal, but we never got around to playing them again. And to miss out on the opportunity to play them big events where all the big points are. That annoyed me a little bit, because I felt like the level of tennis is not that much different, you know, you're coming up against some of these guys that the 500 and the 250 tournaments. And if we'd have just maybe got into them tournaments, it may have been the difference between being ranked 44 and 24, you know, over over the course of the season. And that was that was probably where I felt like that was the reason why my ranking never went higher. I mean, to play a really good season without playing Master Series events, you're basically relying on doing extreme making a semi, I would say of a Grand Slam to bridge the gap. And to peek at one tournament out of the four, you know, and you put yourself in the category of having to beat maybe three seeds to get there. That's, that was quite demanding. And they never really achieved it. And that's fine, I'm okay with it. But if I could go back, I would probably have sort of attacked it maybe slightly different at the start. Because it seems like a lot of people do that these days. And I was fortunate to sort of give me that opportunity to then bridge that gap playing with Jamie. And now he's inside that you can tell how much easier is to pick up points with with a run and maintain his ranking. And now he's in a position now where he's he's obviously, you know, really chasing the number one spot.

Daniel Kiernan  18:46

But explain that because to somebody listening, that was more than you were 44 in the world, but you couldn't get into the next tournaments. And the only way that you could get your ranking high enough to get into those tournaments, is if you make some use of a Grand Slam. You know, this is all feeling very great for ltr rating, you know, like this seems weird to professional tennis. So just in layman's terms, in simple terms, explain to our listeners how that is. And my second bid on that can is you mentioned you would maybe have attacked it differently in the beginning. Explain that bit as well.

Ken Skupski  19:29

Yeah, so obviously, you ever world ranking doubles world ranking each individual players you've combined. Let's say I'm playing with Colin Collins ranked 40 and rank 41. Our combined ranking is 81. So we enter a tournament with the ranking of 81 It's not your individual rank and so then you obviously go down the list of you know, the world number one and number two there three in the world, you know that they ranked number one in the military, number one and two will be three that's their ranking, and so on. So it's a He wanted, it's not a bad number. But the problem is you're also facing the singles guys, you potentially enter it. So at the time, let's say Federer and Nadal into their one and two, they're also three when it comes to entry. So if you add all the singles guys into it, 81 doesn't really get you into many masters series, if any. You know, I think though, Indian Wells Master series is probably the toughest one, and I think the cup for that is 55. So, in layman's terms 22 and 23 in the doubles rankings get you in, but guy ranked 24 in the world and doubles will miss out if they don't have someone inside that Rankin. So it's, it's a really brutal system, because it's not many doubles players that potentially potentially get to play some of these big Masters Series events. And when it comes to bridging the gap, to win, or let's say the final of a 250 event where you come up against other players that that you know, similar rank and or above, you get 150 points or when is 250. But to win a round at a, a Master Series don't if 90 points, then it goes to 180 360. And then 600, I think it is for the final and then 1000. So the point of accumulation is a lot greater at the Master Series events. And then guys obviously deserve to be there because they've obviously done what we have done over the year, accumulating points. But once you bridge that gap, and you're inside that ranking, to win one match to make 90 is the same as having to win two matches against similar type opponents. So you just have to have an extremely good season to bridge the gap. And it's, it's difficult, and a lot of players fall short of that. But from a Master series events, there's only nine in the year. And I'd say if you ranked 40 you probably may be getting into one. I think there's maybe one at the end of the year in Paris where you've got a sniff. But most of the other ones you wouldn't you wouldn't get that chance.

Daniel Kiernan  21:57

So a couple of things for me. Firstly, we went to university together for for anybody listening and we live together. So I know, I know that you're a university student, what's 22 plus 23

Ken Skupski  22:12

55?

Daniel Kiernan  22:14

45 Just I can't let that one go. Because you said in layman's terms, in simple terms, you want to be 55 and then 22 and 23. So that was just that was an error

Ken Skupski  22:30

Going dark.

Daniel Kiernan  22:33

It was if you get any more wrong answers, you're gonna go even darker. So anyway, he means 32 and 23. But that's not to not to belabor that point too much.

Ken Skupski  22:45

I'm gonna get some grief for that.

Daniel Kiernan  22:48

The fact that you answered it wrong the second time. Yes, you will. I think the second point is ATP councils are out there, you know, the representation is fraught. We had Ross Hutchins, actually on the on the show a couple of weeks ago, but the representation is from singles guys have certain rankings doubles guys have certain rankings? Surely that is a point on the agenda that needs to be pushed. You know, if if there's, I guess if there's any barrier in place that's potentially preventing someone from just having a fair a fair ride and passage, as as the next person. It's something that needs to be looked at, looked at the first part of the question is that the second part is if you are on that ATP counselor, you are making the decision. What change would you make to that rule that you think would then make the slope a little bit cleaner? And a little bit fairer because it is ridiculous that Ken skupski Who's had the career he's had, and been ranked or won the events that you've won, never got an opportunity to play at those masters events?

Ken Skupski  24:06

Yeah. I think going going back to the answers that I sort of got while I was playing in sort of the early point in my career, it was always the idea that people want to see singles guy on the doubles court, and you know, putting bums on seats is business. So if you can have someone like that, you know, getting down into a doubles drawer or you know, another top 10 player. I completely agree, I think I think it is something that they need to have. The problem is, you know, no disrespect to any name that let's say I mentioned is when you get a guy who's ranked 35 singles who doesn't really play much doubles but will all the sudden be in the Master Series events. Maybe because it's a financial incentive to get an extra little bit of cash. You know, I think that could be a cut. My suggestion is you put a limit on it on that particular week when there's a an entry, if you are top 10 in the world, you're able to use your singles ranking to get into doubles, I think that's allowed. But I just find it difficult, anybody, you know, go into all different levels of time, not just Master Series events, but some guys who are trying to push their ranking up, missed out, because a guy randomly wants to use the doubles draw as an opportunity to just get on the match court before they play their singles. You know, I'm not saying people go on there and tag or anything like that. But people are, you know, people are trying to make a living out of doubles. And I think that's, you know, we should respect that and not sort of find ourselves having walkovers in the doubles drawer, because somebody will have played a lot of singles matches are just, you know, not play the doubles, or I've lost in singles, and are, I need to get home now or get to the next tournament, and then someone's missed out. They're really difficult moments, because obviously, I think we've all been on the wrong end of that. And you just think you look at the drawer and you see someone, you know, decide that it's just not something that they want to do, and they give a walkover or they go home. And it's it's, it's a tough one, because they obviously think those guys deserve to be there as well, because they're exceptionally good at what they do. But

Daniel Kiernan  26:23

my point, Ken, I think, is that and I'm not underplaying that point, because I think the the point you make is, is a good one, I think it's very clear for people to see, you know, going going back to when I played 130, or just before I was one of the reasons I stopped, actually was I was 150. A year earlier, if I was ranked 130, I would have been getting in Grand Slams, then you had to become 65 IQ. So that I get but the point I'm trying to make is, you alluded to the fact that the points are so significantly greater at at the Master Series event. So So I guess, for you at home, if you're in there, and people have got piggy packs in there from playing with whether it's Andy Murray or playing with somebody at the top of the ranking, to make up someone, let's say someone 60 in the world, playing with Andy Murray has a collective ranking of 63. So they're getting into some of those events in mass. And and but my point, the point you alluded to was, the points are so significantly greater at those events, that no matter how you're really doing an ATP events, unless maybe you're winning 10 of them, which is extremely hard to ATP, 500s, it's very hard for you to break down that barrier of inside 3530 in the world, in doubles, in order to get into the event, the right way with your partner, which doubles it should be that you're doing it with your partner, and having that opportunity. Whereas if the points were less, and a little bit more fair and comparative to the points through the stages, it makes it a bit of an easier passage for for players I guess to to find where they may lay, rather than someone could have a really bad year, when a couple of matches. And 1000 Master Series events, get a couple of walkovers in maintain their ranking was Ken skupski and Jonny O'Mara. are fighting tooth and nail to win to 50s and even dropping down to win some challenges. And you're not making up that ranking difference. That seems to me to be wrong. Is that is that a point in on the agendas that have been talked about? Between us? It just accepted? That's how it is?

Ken Skupski  28:57

I think a lot of the time, it's just accepted that that's where we're at. Yeah, it's a bit it's a bit of a disappointment from the points perspective. I think slightly different from the singles tour because obviously, those guys have got a set schedule, they get appearance monies protect a certain events. But with the doubles, every doubles guy, who's who really is obviously at the highest rankings, they can all play in the five hundreds, and there's not very many spots, because there's 16 Draw, obviously in the singles are this 32 When they have two tournaments, they're still exceptionally strong because of the two tournaments you'll still find three or four singles guys will then enter them tournaments as well. So to get into the five hundreds because they're smaller drawers, they're actually the bridge between the 250s and the 1000s. The five hundreds or one of the most difficult tournaments to get into. That's the different difficulty because we're not just competing to the at the Masters. The five hundreds as well are basically aid off of guys that are in the 1000s. And then the 250. Guys, everybody else. So that that gap is the one that I find the most difficult because there's not that many, five hundreds, if more 250 guys were able to get into the 500 events, then they'd have more opportunities to pick up 90, 180, 360, 500s, then, you know, the obviously the Master series, which is in same sort of format with double double points, with the 4590 situation with the maths for the 250 events, you basically have to win six or seven of them events, or at least do really, really well in them to bridge the gap. And to do that over the course of the year. It just isn't that many teams that do it. To fall outside of, you know, the top 35 and 40 is a big drop. You know, there are players that do it, and they find it really difficult to break that back into that sort of group. Unless they as you say they can piggyback maybe someone to get back in there.

Daniel Kiernan  31:02

Moving forward. And again, reflective question. When you look back at your your career, your experiences, you know that the memories that you've created? What are the what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned from that,

Ken Skupski  31:19

Uh I think you get out of the sport, what you put into it. You know, I, I was very excited at the start, when I when I got on the tour and did well at what I considered doing well, going from playing challenges up to top 50. In a short space of time with Colin, I sort of got a little bit complacent early on, because I was like, Oh, wow, I'm now at this level. And this is where I'm going to be for the next however long that that first year was obviously eye opening in terms of an enjoyment perspective and going with the flow. But then the reality of having to do to defend them big points, when they came round, again, was rarely the stress that I faced, I haven't had any stress like that since. And I really struggled with it, because it was the first time defending winning ATP events became something that I had to look look at and think, you know, even though there were three months down the line, it was something sort of on your shoulder, all endpoints are on your shoulder, sort of like, you know, you're about to drop in the rankings can you really need to start winning some tennis matches. So, you know, seven for a match became a lot bigger deal or dealing with a, you know, a loss, that way you maybe had match point, it just became a bigger deal than it really should have been. Because the level of our tennis was fine. And you can have bad runs, you can play good tennis and still lose at the level that we play at. And I had a bit of a slump with confidence because I just didn't feel like I was able to, I was able to maybe play that level of tennis that I first did. Or if I'm ever going to get back up to that rank. And again, because I you know, dropped down, Colin and I decided that we weren't going to play any more together. So I just, I basically felt sorry for myself. But I had to sort of, you know, give myself a kick up the arse and start again. And, you know, I think I did a good a good job with that. But it took a while to appreciate where I was, and respect that you still have to put the work in even though you're there. And if you want to make that jump, you have to you have to kick on. And obviously I never kicked on to get to the rankings that I was hoping for. But I did stuff in the game that I was really pleased with. And I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily regret anything that I did.

Daniel Kiernan  33:42

And how did you then, Mark because I think the point you bring up there about defending points. It's it's a real, you know, and I think as a coach, even like, some of the best shares I've had with players have been their first years on tour. And it's like every match, they win, their ranking goes up. And there's such a feel good factor. And there's a lot around it's oh my god, look how well. I'm remember Lloyd Glasspool went from zero to 280 in 12 months, sort of panel advisory, you know, and these players it's like, every, you know, making a quarterfinal was like That's another three points and that's another 50 spaces and it's quite exciting. Whereas the reality of the second year, which is often and this is a nice bit of advice for any up and coming players, second year is often the toughest because it's the first time you experienced the defending so now that you have been a bit of a grandpa and you've gone through it so many times I guess how did you manage the switch the mindset to be able to then cope and manage with that challenge of of being the defender of of a title or points of becoming points. Um, don't forget not not just Rankin points, when you actually look at your bank account, you actually realize, oh, you know, there's there's something in there finally, you know, because for all them years of starting off, you're, you're playing with nothing really, you know, you get a little bit of help from some people, maybe you know, a bit of LTA support, getting a feel of the bonus schemes and stuff like that, but you don't really have that much to play with. Quickly on that Ken, personal question. Don't need to see your bank bank balance as such. Have you made money from the sport being a regular top 50? doubles? Player?

Ken Skupski  35:36

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I wouldn't have played been able to play it because I've got a wife who probably wants me to make, you know, a living. And, you know, I've got to provide for the family. I love the sport. I played it, because I loved it. But I also played it because I was doing well. And that's, that's, that's a it's a difficult question to know what what is making money, but I didn't think I was able to do something else straight away to be able to make the money that I was making at the time that I was playing.

Daniel Kiernan  36:05

I think that's the

Ken Skupski  36:06

answer. Yeah. Yeah. So so that that was, that was obviously a, you know, a really nice feeling when you do play a big tournament, and you do well, and you see your bank balance. And you, you know, there's obviously much bigger numbers that people can talk about in tennis. But for me, personally, you know, seeing certain numbers, the bank account out there in numbers I've not seen before. And obviously, they became a bit more normal after after, after a while, but it is a great feeling. And you do get confidence from seeing that and you want more of it. And you want to try and beat your biggest earnings at certain times. So yeah, the defending and the sort of the the reality of looking at your, you know, the amount of money you could win per match, you've got to try and put it aside, you've got to try and focus on the process in which you go about winning a tennis tournament, you know, I, I always enjoyed the training weeks before tournaments, because I felt like if you put the effort in, there's more chance that you're going to come away with something, a few sort of put a half assed effort in, the reality is, you might still do well. But you can't complain, if you don't do well, because you haven't put the effort in. So I enjoyed the training element of things I enjoyed the practice, I quite liked doing tech work are quite liked. And you know, going out there and try and improve in my game, adding a new shot, changing the sort of psychology of the way I would approach the way I would play a certain match or a certain point. And build confidence from spending time on the tennis court, and the practice sessions that lead into tournaments.

Daniel Kiernan  37:46

And a one that I like, and I often when I'm a tournament, I asked this question to players, I'll change the age that I asked it. But I think it's a I think that's a one that's nice for people to hear the answer of is if you were to go back and speak to 18 year old Ken Skupski just turned up at LSU. You know, about to go through your your college career, that obviously you didn't know what lies ahead for you in that you certainly didn't know what lies ahead for you over the next 20 years. As you as you made such a success of your pro career. What would you do different? What messages would you give to that 18 year old Ken Skupski?

Ken Skupski  38:33

That's a tough question. Because I would say I would do anything that different, obviously the end of the small moments of maybe playing with a different partner and send them because choosing a partner is a very difficult thing, because it's not just how good the guys on the on the on the side of the court. It's It's what he's like off the court. Does he have the right morals to be with? You know, he's the good guy generally. You know, I find it difficult to play with the guy didn't really, you know, I'd fight harder for someone who I felt like I was friends with because I felt the passion that they would bring to the court as well. You know, obviously claim it your brother is very different to any other partner. So it's hard to use him as an example. But, you know, Jonny O'Mara was my last partner, and it was someone I enjoyed playing with because he, he's got great energy, and he's got a great attitude about tennis. And I just love that about him. It's not about trying to find necessarily the best player, but it's fun to see that you've got that connection with where you feel like you can give that extra bit of effort because you know, both of you are going to enjoy that moment more when you come off the court. You can get players that play with someone and they just go off on their own and they don't see them until the next practice session. And I find that difficult to enjoy that that's where being on the tour is just not as fun for me. You know you're in there in a team environment. I know there's a team of two or maybe a Additional coach or whatever, but I would be surprised if if a top football team had players where they didn't embrace each other off the pitch as well, the best. You know, I use Liverpool as an example, the best team that I've ever seen is the current one because the manager creates an atmosphere around the dressing room and it seems around harmony have the team to be the best on and off the field. And I think if you can do that in the tennis world as well, you've got a better chance.

Daniel Kiernan  40:27

And what is it that that people often get wrong about you? Is this something that people get wrong? That isn't accurate about yourself?

Ken Skupski  40:37

This before, but I can't really think of anything. I'm a bit of a straight shooter, I would say.

Daniel Kiernan  40:45

No, you're not an Everton fan are you?

Ken Skupski  40:48

No, certainly not. And no, there's nothing that I can think of that that sort of springs to mind. Now, now, honestly, I've got nothing at the moment for that one. That's, that's that's stumped me a little bit.

Daniel Kiernan  41:02

So you think everyone that knows Ken Skupski, they get what they see. You are what you are?

Ken Skupski  41:10

Pretty much. Yeah, you know, I'm a simple guy. But yeah, you know, I try to be nice to people, I try to do the right thing. And, you know, it's, you get what you get exactly what you say, it's simple as I try my best on the court, but I try not to let it get me to down if, if things don't go well, and don't get too high. If you know, if you have a good day.

Daniel Kiernan  41:32

And the thing that you're you're most proud of, you know, and if if I lead you into this, I was fortunate enough. And I've been fortunate enough to, to know yourself and the family for many years, haven't spent as much time with you the last few years as I would like. But I go back to coming to, to practice with yourself after I think it was maybe after your first semester in America, and I care and I stayed stayed at the family house. And it was very clear to me that the Skupski family was very proud family, you know, very proud of, of where they were from your dad and not leave your mum out. But it was very clear to me your dad had quite a clear vision for you boys. And and even though I know you you're at a at a decent Junior career, Neal, wasn't as well known. But there was there was a there was a pathway that there was there, there was a, there was a belief and there was a pride that, you know, the boys are going to do this, they're going to they're going to do it together, they're going to play doubles together, the vision was quite clear. You know, and that, you know, for me, certainly watching you guys over the years, and every now and then when I do text you and I let you know how proud I am of you guys, and, you know, fellow LSU Tigers, and watching the way that you guys have done it. So there's so much for you to be proud of. What is the thing that makes you most proud of what you've done over the last 16, 18 years?

Ken Skupski  43:09

I mean, you covered a lot there. But yeah, obviously, as a family, it's been something that we I think we all learned about but the reality of tennis is, it's you know, it only takes one injury for that all to potentially go go pear shaped. And, you know, I was able to play what I love what I you know, what I grew up wanting to do for, you know, I'm 39 not many players get to the age of 39 and still get to play professional tennis. And let's be honest, I could have gone longer. I mean, I could have at least played maybe another 12 months and not stressed, you know about necessarily dropping out of the Challenger level. You know, I still feel I had plenty of good tennis in me. But going back to, you know, the the moments that would potentially make me most proud as obviously representing a country, you know, if you get to represent your country at any level, whether that's Commonwealth Games, for me, whether that's, you know, Davis Cup, then moments are huge, because you it's not just about you, it's about, you know, a nation. I wish I could have got to play the Olympics, maybe I think that would have been something nice to play Commonwealth, knowing how big the Olympics is, that would have been great, but most proud is, you know, is also making everybody else proud that I've that what I've achieved is, you know, someone can can look at me and say, yeah, you've you've maximized your career and, and you've gone on to play tennis for, you know, as you say 18 years, which is, you know, it's a long time and in the tennis world in any sport. And I was able to play it at the highest level for quite a long time. You know, when in my biggest tournament at 38 I'd say that probably is, you know, something that I was so excited about when it happened.

Daniel Kiernan  44:54

So you should be you know, and I don't know if you heard Neil's word about you on our on our Wimbledon Review, but he said some lovely words about you. And certainly, and I said back to him, I said, like when we're sitting having a beer in our front room all of those years ago, in Tiger land, never in a million zillion years, but I think 22 years later, that one of us was still playing on the highest stage. And, you know, I think anyone can have a good week or a good year, but someone to sustain that that career over such a long span for me that, that that, for me is incredible, you know, I was certainly unable to do it. You know, I think lots of people are having the average. And our doubles is a little bit more, but I think the average time is six or seven years on the ATP tour, certainly for the singles, guys. And that's because it is such a challenge to do it. So when you've gone through all of that, there's so much that you will obviously take with you into this next phase of your life, you've got the skupski skupski doubles Academy, which is it seems to have started really well. But if you again, reflective question, what are the what are three big things that you have taken from your tennis career into that next stage of life?

Ken Skupski  46:22

I think when you face adversity, or when things are going extremely well, I try not to get to up or to down, you know, you can always deal with a problem, you know, we, as a tennis player, you've got so many things to go in on your head in terms of, you know, how to deal with you know, conditions, how to deal with your opponent, how to deal with how you play, and how to de mentally how things are going, you have to really get all this under control to really be good at what you do. Let's say, you know, going into later life, now we're flying on holiday next week, you know, if we have trouble at the airport, I think my wife would struggle with dealing with the adversity of a problem. But it's, it's a simple problem that we will fix, you know, it's it's trying to just think rationally about the problem, and there are answers, but you've got to stay calm, you've got to stay sort of in the moment and not get too, too down. That's one thing. And the second thing is obviously, given back to the next generation for me, I've got to now look to my kids and how I want them to grow up and be you know, good people. You know, having having respect is a big thing in life, I think that sometimes gets a little bit lost at times, in the tennis world, you can, you can sort of feel like you may be too big once you get up into the top end, and then you sort of forget where you've come from. So for me, teaching the kids to have a lot of respect for others, is something that I you know, hopefully is something that I would hope they sort of see that I've done. But for me also is time management trying to you know, I've obviously had three kids for a while now and understand them when to practice how to practice, you know, making the most time that you have to do things. You know, it feels like yesterday, we were at Tiger land as well, you know, and it does feel like it can go very quickly. It obviously doesn't, because it's been a long time in some respects. But it you can, you can lose time, just because you think that where you are at the moment is the best thing ever. But it can disappear very quickly, whether that, again, whether that's an injury, or whether you just sort of take it for granted, you've got to work hard, because there's always someone behind you who's willing to work harder. You know, I moved up and around the rankings for a long time. But I, I always knew if my ranking dropped that I'd have to work extra hard to get sort of back up there. And, and I did that well with you know, three or four different partners. And, you know, my, my, my challenger record sort of speaks for itself, I just felt like I knew I could do well at that level. And sort of get you know, deal with adversity to sort of get myself back up there and do well.

Daniel Kiernan  48:59

It's it's such a good point you make I think, so many so many people in life catastrophize things and it is one of my one of my favorite quotes or thought or sayings that helps me and I hope it helps people around me is we're never that far away from playing well or for things to go well. And we're never that far away to play of playing badly and for things to go badly. And and I think if we're able to keep that kind of that that neutral ground a little bit and and not get to not get too down. realize we're never really in a position of complete comfort. Because I think, you know, once we start lacking humility and we have complacency, life and tennis will bite us in the ass. And, and at the same time. We're never we're never so far away from turning things around when things aren't going as well as we want to do and that's very much A life lesson that, that, that I'm trying to live by, you know, trying to try to pass that pass that on. And one of my big passions is that, you know, around tennis being a vehicle, you know, takes us through life and the bus stops and you know, your boss has been gone a while it's done a few laps around the world and, you know, it's stopped now for you to jump on and, and take your take your skills into another another part of of life and but I guess just for the listeners and for for some of the youngsters listening, parents listening that maybe feel a little bit deluded abou or are disillusioned about what tennis is and never going to be able to win Wimbledon or they're never going to be able to do this. Just give us a couple more of those transferable skills, you know, that you, you would have seen already, you've been running your business in the Academy for a couple of years. Now, you know, what, what are some of the real positives of the sports that are often not talked about?

Ken Skupski  49:39

Um, yeah, I mean, traveling the world, I mean, we obviously get get to go to many places I, I never really got out to go and see the place that I went to, because I basically, again, took it for granted that I was at a at a at a different hotel, different city. And I never really saw some of the places. And I wouldn't necessarily say every place that I went to, I wanted to see. But there are certain times where you see other people and you think they're actually enjoying themselves while they're also there. And over time, I got to realize that if you if you manage your time better, it gives you more time to do other things. At first, it was all just tennis, tennis, tennis, tennis. And for some people that will work. But if you're if you're comfortable off the court, if you enjoy life off the court, whether that's you know, you know, I'm happily married and things like that, if you can, you can really get to enjoy being on the court more, if you've got a stress and you don't enjoy life, and you're not doing the right thing, whether that's, you know, who you practice with, or where you practice all different types of things, you've got to be happy for majority of your daytime to enjoy what you do on the tennis court. If you if you are, you know, always in a bad mood, because you don't get enough sleep or these type of things, it's so difficult to all of a sudden switch it on that when you get on the court, oh, everything's gonna be fine. Again, it's not because, you know, you're in a bad frame of mind. You know, I've always tried to be quite a, you know, a pleasant guy and try not to get as a sage, trying to get too stressed about too many situations. You know, if if Liverpool are winning, it keeps me happy. But, but generally, you know, I tried to sit, you know, wake up with a smile and be happy. And try and, you know, obviously take that onto a tennis court and, and see where it takes me.

Daniel Kiernan  53:00

But those those things there that you you touch on. You've learned learn behaviors and learn skills that the sport has also given you, you know, you said about about your wife, maybe something happening at the airport, maybe she hasn't had the experiences of dealing with adversity that you have through your tennis, so then she hasn't developed the same level of skill that you have in that situation. And I just think it's so important that people understand. Those are the real value of the sport of tennis, in all the the tournaments, the trophies is fantastic. But the real value of the journey is is from networks to life skills, to opportunities to memories to all of all of those bits, and you've certainly created lots of them. But moving it a little bit more into into tennis specific, you've come up against some of the best players in the world you've had wins over world number ones. Who's the toughest ever, opponent that you've had, and why.

Ken Skupski  54:14

I mean, I was I was fortunate enough or unfortunate enough to play Brian quite a few times. You know, the first time ever playing them they were I'm not gonna say heroes, but the guys I look to as being the pinnacle of the sport because when I was in college, they were absolutely dominating everybody. So in my first year to play them and beat them with Flembo That that was it was a really weird feeling because I couldn't have been any more nervous going on the court. I mean, you know, the Centre Court at Queens, you know, first time out there on the big stage, an ATP event. Place was fairly busy. I think very rowdy because it was later in the day. And I can't remember the warmup. And I probably can't remember the first three games. And literally, I couldn't put the ball in the court, my legs, my hands, I lost control of my body. But you have to find ways to manage yourself and you need to, you know, problem solve, you know, over the years, you have to figure out, how do I get out of these situations to beat these top players. And fortunately, on that particular day, Flembo started really well. So it sort of calms us down. So to beat the Bryan's was one of the biggest achievements I ever had. But to play them after that, I think we gained a little bit of their respect. And then they battered us, not particularly just me and flembo. But everybody I've sort of played with, they think it'd be six, eight or nine times after that. But when they are ahead, they are the best front runners I've ever played because they play service games in 40 seconds. Unbelievable. Yeah, and they don't do that much talking because there's so unique in terms of they know everything about what they do. They find themselves in a great situation to just keep keep the ball rolling, and you just felt suffocated by the guys.

Daniel Kiernan  56:15

It's like a battering ram I, I had the opportunity back in 2005, we played the second round that we've done. And for a moment, I felt we had them, you know, you had this kind of feeling of like, an hour, we set all the breakpoints in the third. And then it was like, like you said, as soon as they got ahead, I have no idea what happened. It was just like, this energy just came at me. And they were just they were just there there were chest bumping, there were bom bom bom service going down. And then before you knew it, you know, you're shaking hands. And you're like, shit, what happened? Yeah, sure, we were almost like, we were about to be a breakup, and the third. And now I'm shaking, hands losing in four sets, and I don't really know what's happening happened. And they were, they were incredible. And to him to have that feeling. And to experience it really was a special

Ken Skupski  57:11

I don't think I'd had with other players. You know, I always felt like, you know, other matches, I had a chance. But when these guys got ahead, I didn't know how to manipulate the points to sort of get it away from their strengths, or get them out of their comfort zone and put them in a sort of a negative mindset. They were just, they were brutal. And, and it was great to play against them as well, because it gave you that sort of experiences to use for myself when I played with Neal.

Daniel Kiernan  57:39

Tennis as a whole, you're now in a position where you can say what you want, you know, in lots of ways, is the sport in a good place.

Ken Skupski  57:54

I still look at the crowds and still think the age of the average tennis player or the average is a little bit too old. For the way the way tennis and other sports are going. How do you change it? I don't know, I think obviously the way they maybe market it, you know that there's a new series coming out with Netflix, maybe that will appeal to some new new people. I've seen the way Formula One's taken off with drive to survive to a great series. So I'm intrigued to see how that plays out. And if it'll you know, brings a new sort of dynamic to the sport. You know, I don't particularly like the idea of necessarily having shorter matches at Grand Slams. But then sometimes, you know, you sit there and you watch a five set match and you think this is just too much this is you know, especially the way the game has gone and it's about the physicality of the sport. I wish they would some some way of getting a bit more serve and volley involved. I'm not saying you have to serve volley every single point but they get the game has sort of been played a little bit too much in the same way by too many so many total sort of top 100 players. You know, I think the surface and the balls are probably had the biggest cause of that are the strings. But yeah, you know, I enjoy watching players I mean, it's great to see Alcaraz coming forward a little bit you know, I you know, even though Nick's a bit of a funny character I do enjoy watching him play because he brings a new energy to the court that a lot of people like whether it's good or bad but overall Yeah, I mean the next generation is sort of starting to come through and it's at some point Novak and Rafa will obviously, you know, have to take a backseat and the next generation comes through but overall it'd be you know, the getting the getting the younger crowd in and sort of seeing how the game can change in that way. I don't actually have an answer for it. And which, you know, if you want to give me some cash I'll, I'll maybe come up with another solution but At the moment, so don't have anything to sort of throw out there to make things a little bit different.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:05

Yeah, because it but I guess to me, I don't think Grand Slams are our problem, I think. I think the Grand Slams are always pretty special. Yeah.

Ken Skupski  1:00:16

The slams speak for themselves. And, you know, we we players have always wanted to play them whether, you know, as we talked about the points or the money is different. You want to play because you want to win the slam. You know, I always this year was going to be exactly the same as every other year. Obviously, we've we missed out on a few players, but they still were going to try and win that time. And no matter whether there's points there or not.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:39

Yeah, not in the five, the five set on the men's I'm not convinced about five set in doubles, if I'm honest, I think that potentially puts off it puts off certain people from playing it, which, which, you know, imagine Kyrgios played doubles, that Wimbledon, if it was better three, you know, I know he pulled out of the final that that brings more coverage to the doubles, and potentially, you know, build a little bit more excitement around it. But But I don't think the numbers lie that the ATP 250 and below is struggling a little bit struggling to attract new new crowds struggling to really attract. And I do just wonder if there is some some experimentation there? You know, I know you're, you're someone who's been a big advocate of World Team Tennis, you've played it many years, obviously college boy, you know, you get that team environment. But I even question that it's kind of stuck in a place where nobody really wants to play. You know, it's it's the, I call it the armpit of tennis, in terms of the the time period. But I do wonder if there is a team format, there's a there's a, there's some format change. At that level ATP, WTA going to 250 level and below, that potentially grabs the imagination a little bit more, I would hate to think that we would lose our five set men's matches at grand slams. You know, I just think that the climax that happens within those matches is incredible. So so how is it gonna look in 10 years? What's your prediction? 10 years time? Does? How does tennis look different to what it currently looks now?

Ken Skupski  1:02:31

I definitely think there's a chance that as the format gets shorter, I do feel like that there's an opportunity to maybe reduce Wimbledon to three to sort of, you know, fit in with the same sort of number of sets for the compared to the other slams, because unique, Wimbledon is unique in that way. Singles, I do hope it stays five, but I wouldn't be surprised if that goes to three as well. You know, maybe I'm

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:57

talked about internally.

Ken Skupski  1:03:00

I mean, it's something that's always been a discussion over the years, I wouldn't necessarily say it's something that's recent. It's always been on the agenda, whether people think it's the right move or not the right move, I feel like that slams, I've got that special feeling because of five sets. But I certainly think maybe the the latter part of the tournament should be five sets, you know, the final just has this feeling of, it's a special occasion. And, you know, if you have, you could have a couple of quick sets, you know, it's you know, if you have a 6-1 6-2 final, it just doesn't seem right. At least over three sets, it gives the opponent a little bit of a sense of, you know, if they're near nervous and they lose the first set quickly, they've got a sense that they can get back into the match. Yeah, it's, it's just difficult because you know, you're playing seven matches over 13, 14 days. And, you know, if you do have a really long match in a really tough, you know, environment with the weather, it just becomes really tough to see that player advance to the latter stages because the situation has got away from him really. And if it was over three sets, they potentially could still have dealt with the situation and carried on. I do find it sometimes difficult when you know, someone enters the singles and the doubles and they know they're in the US Open when it's you know, 85% Humidity 90 degrees, and then they they play doubles and they they sort of you know, you put a semi effort in when if you know three all in the third set because they're thinking about their match the next day. Them type of scenarios obviously I would like to avoid for them for them guys, but overall,

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:43

You're talking there from a from a planning perspective, and I guess what my challenge is for you in this hour love to jump into a couple of things on it is how do we look at it from a fan's experience perspective. So if we park we Park grand slams, that's fine. Grand Slams, you know, the figures, the viewing figures, the the ticket sales, all of those things seem to be in a really good place they're trialing or they've started now I know they've done it for WTF for a while, but ATP now coaches are able to speak to their parents, their parents, coaches are able to speak to their players. And I guess me for one, I guess we were that I think we have to look at this is and think about your kids what engages your kids? You know, what, what, what what's grabbing now it's weird because some kids are watching YouTube and watching people like, unpack Christmas presents and stuff. There's some bizarre stuff out there. And watching Peppa Pig in Russian, you know, whatever it is, or dislike all sorts, but what is it that's going to engaged

Ken Skupski  1:04:43

I think it's more the individual, like, let's say, my middle one is a football fan. He doesn't like Man United, but he likes Ronaldo, because he likes the brand Ronaldo, you know, get them off that subject quite quickly because we are all Liverpool fans, but you know, it's the individual that people are buying that they're not necessarily buying the entire product, they want to watch the individual and now he's moved into the Rafa Nadal sort of, you know, catalogue of YouTube videos and and he just finds the embraces the old excitement about the in between points is is is energy his bull like attitude. He just embraces that and he loves it and now he goes out on the court and he you know, he's doing the fist pumps and he's doing all that so but he wants to be Rafa, obviously in the tennis aside, but the way you act as well that's that's plays a big part in his mind. So that's, that's yes, that's where I think Nick Kyrgios has a big fan base because he does show a different side of tennis that we haven't seen for quite some time because we've the way the authorities have been they don't want racket smashing. They don't want verbal abuse of the umpire these type of things have been taken away and in some ways, I don't want my kids to see that either. But he does push the boundaries of the sport and people embrace that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:21

Its been a lot worse on Tik Tok man, I promise you, if once your kids got a phone, the least of your worries is Nick Kyrgios saying the F word and throwing his tennis racket. Do you know what I mean? It's, it's out there. And I think just for me, I always think about and we're all in, we're in that instant gratification world where a Netflix show finishes. We don't wait for it to give us the bit that tells us who's in the show. It's skipped skipped to next episode. And then we don't want to, we don't want to watch the highlights from the previous episode. So there's even a button now where you can like, skip, skip to the start and you don't have to listen to that bit. You know, and we, I guess, if we take a tennis match, I think an absolute given for me, is we need to get rid of the warm up. You know, we just don't need players walking on court and then watch them watch them arse around for 10 minutes, and I suppose to be five but ask around for five, five minutes putting the shoes on and then five minutes sticking them a few balls around? I'd I do wonder that space. If we think about adverts like it's pointless paying for an advert on television anymore, because nobody watches them, get their phones out. Or they wait to watch the program. So they can skip that and skip the adverts. So so the changeover is a part that we need to find some entertainment, and I for one and I don't know how much this would engage youngsters. I would love to hear the coaches.

Ken Skupski  1:09:00

Yeah, I do. I do too. I want to see how they engage back and forth both ways not just player to coach to player but player to coach as well. And see that dialogue because other sports are using it. I don't see the reason why we can't listen in too.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:16

And I just think those are a couple of things that I don't want us to change structurally as a sport. You know, I love the love the history. I love the tradition. I love so many things. And I think once you start changing too many scoring systems, you potentially lose a bit of that, but I think there's a couple of little wins there that we can get. But let's see if 510 years time, who knows. But my last couple of quick fire. The end of the quickfire round has to come at the very end. And just a couple of questions just to put you on the spot and see see what you've got in your locker. How many Grand Slams does your bro win

Ken Skupski  1:09:56

I am I gonna say four, call it a hopeful brother

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:09

And US Open is our next Grand Slam. Give us a female singles winner

Ken Skupski  1:10:17

I mean last year was an incredible one. That's been a spin an amazing sort of 12 months that we will see how that sort of plays out.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:29

Second year on the tour defending points.

Ken Skupski  1:10:33

Yeah, a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. And it is it's been really difficult. I think Swiatek's been amazing this year. I've really enjoyed watching their play. You know, she she plays I think she's been to your place a couple of times. She's playing some really great tennis so I'm gonna have to just go with the favorite really?

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:53

What about on the men's side?

Ken Skupski  1:10:55

The men's side? I think, Novak is he allowed to play? I don't think he is not right now. Like he's gonna get to play. I have enjoyed watching Nick play the last few weeks so I think he's been really engaged in it. I think that's been great to see. Is Rafa is no, I'm gonna say Nick Kyrgios. I'm gonna say he breaks his duck. And he gets himself in the right frame of mind. And he and he has another great run and their grand slam.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:25

And what about world number one? Men and Women's three, three years from now? So I say three years because surely Rafa has gone. Roger has definitely gone, Novak is on his way out

Ken Skupski  1:11:43

Novak will be there or there abouts? I think still, it depends obviously how the season plays out with if he's allowed to play all the time. And I do think Alcaraz is the next superstar. I know he is a superstar already but I think he is going to really take the sport on and and be one of these next big, big names. I think you've obviously got very often to surpass these guys that are that are doing well. But they've obviously been there a while now. And I think you know, Alcaraz is just as good now. And I think he's you know, he's he's so mentally strong and then big moments. So I'm gonna say Alcaraz. I think he's the one that one women's I think Swiatek could still be the I don't see the reason why not? How old she now she's 20

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:31

21, I think she might have turned 21. But she when she won her first French was 19. So a couple years ago,

Ken Skupski  1:12:41

A baby in the sport. So I'm gonna say she's still there

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:45

My last question. And I'm already asking you this now, because you're not going to be relevant for much longer. Now you've retired, you know, you're no different than Dan Kiernan. And now you're just just a tennis coach. Your ranking will be gone in 11 months time, you know, you might have an LTA rating and a UTR. But that's about all you'll have. So whilst you are still relevant, who should our next guest be? On Control the Controllables?

Ken Skupski  1:13:15

Oh, trying to think outside the box.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:20

You've got to produce as well. It's no good firing me this like, famous name, but then not getting them? Not, you know, you're you're taking on the responsibility here. So, you know, if you're gonna go big, that's fine. But make sure you

Ken Skupski  1:13:36

Have you managed to get Andy Murray on there. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:40

Man, I have tried. Literally, and I promise you, it's tough to get hold of. I have tried so many different ways to get and I've even tried to entice him by telling telling the story about the five times that I beat him on the doubles court, and he never got me back. So you know, maybe you can come and like, fight for himself. You know, I've tried. I've tried so many different ways. I can assure you the listeners that I am continuing to try now. What I haven't tried is with the guy who was hugging him on the ground after he won the Davis Cup. special bond.

Ken Skupski  1:14:20

I'll send him a text, see what he says. Yeah, so that's so that's that you got

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:28

a retirement present. Ken Skupski a massive well done, first and foremost, have an incredible career, you know, to see how you've done it and not just to see how you've done it in terms of in terms of the achievements you've had, but the way that you've done it, you know, and the friendships that you've made, you know, the smile that you've had, and you're a big inspiration to, to me, You're a big inspiration to many, so a big big one. have done, enjoy the other side. It's the grass is not always greener my friend. But I'm sure you will have an amazing next few years as as a dad as a family man. And you have so much to offer on the other side as well. So, all the very best and we need to catch up soon. Cheers Kierno. As always it was it was great to talk to Ken Skupski, an old college roommate and my boy has done good to see him go through the last 18 years of his career. Big well done, Ken, thanks for joining us. And I've got Vicky with me she's she's not next to me. She's across a screen from me because I'm, as we're bringing this outro to this episode together. I am in Switzerland, and there's a lot worse places that I could be. But how's it back in Spain.

Victoria Kiernan  1:15:53

Well, it's not as beautiful as there are these pictures you keep sending us at base and not going down? Well, it looks so beautiful.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:01

It's It's stunning. I must admit, I can't quite believe how stunning it is. Like I keep like catching myself and I walk down to the lake where we're right on L Lake Geneva. And it feels as if at every turn. There's a perfect postcard moment.

Victoria Kiernan  1:16:20

Now we've struggled for those moments.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:23

Well, I'm going to enjoy this one I've done. I've done my fair share dodgy trips. And look, if if there's if there's any consolation for you, I'm sitting here sweating in Switzerland is beautiful, but it's also very expensive. So the four or five star hotels was certainly out of budget. We're in a hostel here. Without air conditioning, it's 36 degrees outside, I've had to turn off the dodgy fan. Not that the fan was necessarily keep me cold. But there was a bit of a bit of warm air being circulated and shut the windows to make sure there's no noise for this. So I apologize for the for the sweaty face. And if that makes you feel a little bit better. But no, I'm here for a 10 Pro event, the Swiss ball, have a few young players, including our son, Matthew, it's going to be a competition it's going to be over the next seven days guarantee of four matches each age group. And the boys will be playing two age groups. So guarantee of eight matches. So really nice event. Yeah, look out for those results. And don't feel too sorry for myself as I'm jumping in to cool down in Lake Geneva later on this evening.

Victoria Kiernan  1:17:35

Hey, I've been so excited about listening to this one. And hearing Ken's reflections really on his career, and what a career. It's been 18 years just unbelievable.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:45

Incredible, really. And I think I guess there's there's lots of lots of thoughts, lots of places we can take this chart, but you know, ultimately, Ken Skupski has proven that you can live a relatively normal life. You can, you know, by his own admission, he was never a superstar. That being said, he was third round, Junior Wimbledon back in the day. So he was a very good player can very skillful boy, you know, coming into college had a good good college career. You know, and I certainly never expected 18 years later, we see him still in the third round at Wimbledon. But the fact that he's done it, and he's done it in a way that like I say, it just seems quite normal. You know, he's he's got married, he's had three kids is, you know, not a whole lot of fuss. It seems to still manage to keep his life. He's got very close family, not just as immediate family, but as your parents and aunties, uncles, cousins in Liverpool. And it's yeah, it's been lovely to see. And like he said he probably could have kept going, you know, he's still proven this year, won an ATP event this year as well with his brother. He's proven that he's still got was that last year when he won the ATP event anyway, regardless, he's he's still got that level. And, and he's now made the choice to move into that next phase of his career. And I think he's a he's a nice inspiration. Another nice story for people to get their heads around.

Victoria Kiernan  1:19:12

You could hear as he was talking, just all the years of experience, I think that transition into coaching is it's gonna be really interesting for him, because we're quite an easy move. I wouldn't I would imagine. But I was thinking when I was listening, we should have had his wife Haley, in the last 10 minutes. I would love to hear her thoughts. She's had to, you know, raise the three boys for so long on her own with Ken kind of traveling being away so many weeks of the year. It would have been great to hear from from her as well. Is she nervous or excited? Or both?

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:44

Yeah, well, I think I think there's that that without a shadow of a doubt is, is something I'd love to do. Actually, I think getting getting a wife of a player, you know, or a husband of a player on the WTA or wife of a wife which you know, there's getting up partner that has had to deal with the highs and lows of other tennis career. And that insight is something we often don't think about. And, you know, as the players are tripping off, and I was saying it to a parent last night, they're traveling, it sounds great. But when you do it in even us coming here to Switzerland, it look it's it's amazing. It's beautiful. But we've it's been tough. We got up at three o'clock in the morning on Monday, you know, nobody likes to kind of a three o'clock in the morning. You get trains, planes and automobiles, you get to the hotel that normally is the cheapest hotel because of what you can afford. Or Airbnb. You don't know what the air conditioning setups gonna be. You don't know, yesterday we ran into was a national national dance Switzerland, so nothing was open, waited for public transport for an hour to get to the tennis club. You know, when you're doing that 25, 30 weeks a year, for many, many years. It's it's difficult, but you then add in the extra of calling home making sure the kids are okay. Is is my husband and wife coping all right with it. And then what's going on at the other end? You know, there's so many layers to what this sport brings. And I would certainly love whether it's Haley, whoever it is to bring it up, bring a partner in, because I think that would that would bring a great insight. But I just want to add Vicki on that. I also think that's what Ken's done. Well, I think he's he's normalized, the winning and losing quite well. You know, and I think, you know, having a such a strong partner in your corner, or having such a normal life in your corner, I think does massively help. And I think that's one of the big reasons that he's been able to play for 18 years and have these highs and lows, but not be too affected by it. No, we say it all the time, if you're so affected by the losses, and your whole world caves in and then because of it, the people around you, that also happens. It's hard for you to spend 18 years on the tour. So I think that Ken's a great example of someone that's been able to get the right balance, And a strong family setup behind them as well. I mean, I don't know. But I would imagine Haley probably has some help from the family when he is away. I think the longest you ever did was four weeks, maybe we're after we had the kids, when you'd go it would be fine for the first few days. And then I'd get to about the middle and be absolutely exhausted. I'd you know, we'd have some tough conversations on the phone. And then by the time you know, it was looking for you to come back or would have we just settled into a routine. Everything was okay, we've kind of found our rhythms and then you'd fly back in and what you're doing No, no, no, we don't do that before bedtime with the kids are never gonna go to sleep on our note. No, they don't have that Ben and I'd be like, would take a few days for me to adjust as much as you because everything would be thrown out of whack again. So if you're doing that over the space of nine years, I think their eldest is that's that's a lot of adjustments for them all. Massive, massively so. And I guess what you've just explained there as Why Ash Barty retired? Because you do that? You do that from Australia? You don't it's not just a four week trip. You know, you're traveling for eight, nine months of the air. And, you know, I know a lot of people what's you doing with number one in the world just when Australian Open, but that that is it for me in a nutshell, you know, 25 years old, just getting married, I just saw she got married this week. And you know, she didn't want to be in a position where that life was like that, you know, and it's, it's not for everybody. It's not for everybody, but certainly Ken seemed to find a way and I just want to touch on your point.

Victoria Kiernan  1:23:44

Sorry, I was just gonna say And hats off to Haley as well, because there's not many women who'd be able to do that for so long with three children. So, you know,

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:52

Tennis, tennis coaches and tennis players. Have a half's deserve deserve an absolute medal. You know, this is not a, this is not a normal sport. But I was just saying I'd love to just quickly pick up on the coaching part about how he's going to be as a coach, look, Ken's been a coach for years, you know, and is it was an actual coach, it was the same in college, you know, he had a real natural way about him. And I think it's one of the big reasons that doubles is so well suited to him. You know, if you saw him with Neil, in the younger age, you know, he was very, very much his coach and every single corner, you know, maybe that tight turned a little bit the last three or four years. But he's a he's a natural coach, you know, you see it with the way that he is and he's been coaching and playing on the tour over the last few years. I think it's really exciting what he's doing, you know, doubles Academy. I think it's nice that he's trying that and you know, I'm sure you have some nice success with it, as well but a great guy, a wonderful, a wonderful career, fantastic family and we wish him all the very best.

Victoria Kiernan  1:24:59

He does see To enjoy the team environments, what was he like as a teammate at LSU?

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:04

Yeah, it's a hard one because actually, we weren't his his first year was my last year, but his first year, he was a redshirt. So he, so we never actually competed in the same team. We lived together for 12 months. And he was a great guy to have around, you know, he was someone, I would say, actually on memory. And maybe it was a little bit because he wasn't fully in the team. But he was it was definitely a an individuality about him, actually. And he was thinking different, you know, he was he was there to become a professional tennis player. I do remember that quite clearly. You know, and I think, I don't know how that then went, the years after I left, and I know, he was a great LSU LSU teammate to many. But that was definitely my feeling when he was there that he was, he was there for business. And obviously, one of the best things you can do as a teammate is when your matches and, and have some success and lead through actions. And that was, that was something that I'm sure he did. But I'd be lying if I said he was this guy who came in and was just all about the team. It wasn't you can see he was there to develop, to develop his own career. And in doing that he was he was also then I'm sure a very, very good teammate. Yes, you can do both. 100% It look, that's not a, that's not a negative at all. It's, it's, you know, I think, you I take myself, I never ever really thought about myself and my own career, you know, I was just head down. Everything was about the team at all mattered. And actually, when I when I came out of college, I wasn't mentally ready to be able to, to develop my own career, you know, so actually, that way of being is often to the detriment because I guess colleges for five years of your life. And yes, you, you want to give your best and you want to be the best teammate you can be. But at the same time you are setting yourself up for the next stage of your career. And very much I felt that can have that maturity. But he knew that that was going to play a role a stepping stone into into the next part of his career. You know, and I think that definitely came from his from his parents, his dad was a big plus. We talked about that in the episode. And then obviously Neil came in with that same, that same mentality as well. And look at look at the success they've had meals a two time Grand Slam champion. I'm sure we're gonna get to win more. And and I think having that clear vision on the career and not setting any boundaries is a massive plus of the skupski skupski family and what they've achieved.

Victoria Kiernan  1:27:52

And it's obvious LSU has played has been a massive part of the family's life really. We had a lovely story from Desarae Krajicek. And the woman was in review where she was talking to Neal and she got to meet Mr Skupski for the first time. And she had mistaken him for an LSU Scout because he was dressed head to toe in LSU get

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:14

ya know, they have the big big advocates. And again, luck if you see it with lots of the universities, but LSU gets into your blood, you know, it's quite into my blood. And it's it's something that is very special to you. There's a whole line or that Neil's, girlfriend or fiance still lives out there. So he spends a lot of time a lot of times still out in Baton Rouge. Just like Cameron Norrie, I know, spends a lot of training at TCU. You know, out where he played, he played college as well. And you know, if you get it right, you get the right connection out there becomes another home for life. And it sits somewhere. That one can be a training base when you're a professional, but you then have all of the support from the Tiger Nation, or whichever university it is behind you as well. And I know that everyone's very much been behind the Skupskis. And he I could see him being a college coach as well, Ken, I don't know where it fits into His family life and where it goes. But I certainly think maybe we get the Kiernan Skupski dream at some point back at LSU. After maybe after the kids have flown the nest.

Victoria Kiernan  1:29:23

And do you think you'll manage to get Andy? It didn't sound particularly confident?

Daniel Kiernan  1:29:28

No chance zero chance? I mean, I think no, no chance. I think he's, Andy's just become the on the uncontactable man and I actually check our chests and our partners but I think absolutely zero chance that that Ken Skupski pulls out Andy Murray for the podcast. I think the best that I have is if I bumped into Andy at some point. And I managed to get him face to face, eye to eye and you know, make him laugh. Pull on his heartstrings in that way otherwise, I think it's it's too easy to say no, isn't it and I think Andy such a focused guy you can see he's obviously, you know, just to take an hour and a half to do a podcast probably in the current headspace he is in might not be what he what he wants to do. So we hope he can turn his career back around, and we get him back in a better headspace. That's maybe the time to ask the question.

Victoria Kiernan  1:30:26

And he'll stay top of our list in the meantime.

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:29

Oh, apps absolute right.

Victoria Kiernan  1:30:30

Roger's, probably number one on my list.

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:32

Yeah. But absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, getting these guys on, I think it would, it would be incredible. But that's not to say that every other every other guest that comes on isn't as well, you know, and I think they're all different stories. They're all Yes, I'm sure Andy Murray will open up a bigger listener, download amount, but at the but at the same time, you know, the Ken Skupski story is equally as brilliant, you know, and I think it's an Austin, a Ken Skupski can maybe talk with a bit more freedom than maybe an Andy Murray can as well. You know, they have to be very careful.

Victoria Kiernan  1:31:08

It's more relatable as well, isn't it?

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:11

I think so. I think so. But that's not to say that we're not going to continue trying to get these big names, but at the same time, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be swapping any of the amazing guests that we've had over the last couple of years. Well, as much as I would love to continue our chat. I'm sweating too much. I need to get a cow. We need to make our way to the public transport the bus to take us to the tennis club and more practice if no one's feeling sorry for me yet. Maybe I'll post a couple of couple of pictures from the view from the tennis club. But, but thank you all for listening guys. Enjoy the tennis enjoy this summer. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables