Henry Patten & Julian Cash - ATP Challenger Record Breakers

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 182 of Control the Controllables. And today's guests are record breakers.

Julian Cash  00:19

Confidence obviously began to play a part. And we also got to kind of a weird stage where maybe we didn't care as much. The emphasis on winning wasn't quite as high as maybe it was earlier in the trip because we had won a lot. And so the thought of losing wasn't so bad,

Daniel Kiernan  00:36

And the record breakers on the ATP challenger tour, as they won 10 ATP challenger titles last year. And that's amazing considering they only started, only played their first event in Surbiton back in June. Quite incredible achievement. Not many people know this, but they also won 13 ITF Pro Circuit events between them, as well. And I think it's such an inspirational story to have Julian Cash and Henry Patten, come and talk to us about because they are that story that people think might happen. But it often hasn't in the past, and for somebody to walk that walk, and to then be able to talk the talk I think as, as junior players as aspiring professional players and coaches and parents as well, to know that last year, Henri was 871 in the world, and Julian was 585 in the world, and then they finish 2022 in the top 70 in the world, they, as we will find out will they make it into the Australian Open, we do talk about that. And I have to say at this point, this conversation did happen in 2022. It's three weeks since we had the conversation. So a couple of things have moved on. I won't spoil them until after you've listened to the boys talk. But there's a couple of advancements to discuss that have happened in the last in the last few weeks. But brilliant guests, loads of learnings, a big well done to the boys. And the least that you can do is one, listen to the boys and two like, share. Let's get the podcast out. It's 2023. Guys, I haven't made that push for a while. But thank you for joining us again, all the best to everybody. But I'm gonna pass you over to Julian cash and Henry Patten. So Henry Patton, Julian cash a big welcome to control the controllables how're you doing?

Julian Cash  02:41

Yeah, good. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Henry Patten  02:43

Very well. Thanks, Dan.

Daniel Kiernan  02:44

Yeah. All all I've written down boys is wow. That's that's when I when I sat down with all right, what we're going to talk about, and it was one of those moments. I've just been watching it all, you know, week after week after week. And I know I reached out after you won the challenge in Italy to save boys. What a year. Wow, that's just an incredible Yeah. And you're like, No, no, no, we're, we're off to Portugal. Now you know, where we're going again. And I've been thinking to myself, the things you've had to do to get your own show on Control the Controllables. You know, you both both your coaches have been on and have their shows. So it's your time but well done and start with you, Julian. What a year.

Julian Cash  03:29

Yeah, it's been, it's been a hell of a ride, that's for sure. Kind of well, especially for me and Henry as a pair like six months that's just been full steam ahead really just just come back quite literally the last few days from from a four month stint, primarily in the States. So yeah, it's been a lot of fun. We're pretty knackered now, but kind of surpassed our expectations and yeah, enjoyed the whole ride.

Daniel Kiernan  03:57

And and Henry 10 challenge a title since junuh. A record you know, I believe it was the Tye twins that that one eight, about 10 years ago they had they had the record, but not just that, I believe between you you've also won 13 futures tournaments. And the other thing that I think is really interesting as I look and I go okay, well, you've played 90 or so doubles matches, but you've also played 35, 40 singles matches as well. Which a lot of the doubles guys aren't doing so so how are you feeling and what a year what have your reflections been the last week?

Henry Patten  04:36

Yeah, it definitely a relief to be back home on British oil. It's been a long trip there's nice dates and time now to reflect on on kind of what we've done. I don't think during the trip we were able to really sit back in and kind of have a think about what we've achieved. So yeah, to be at home, on British soil and and to kind of admire What we have done and give ourselves a little bit of credit it's a good feeling Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  05:05

And that's the thing it's it's turnaround fast pretty much truly and it's like this tennis is tennis is brutal. I always I always think that around the Olympic time you see these gymnastics guys and girls are you see whoever it might be winning gold medals and having these amazing achievements. And then you see them on Strictly Come Dancing for the next three months. And you are you see them at parties and it Garland's and it awards, whereas tennis you guys have had that year. You've Julian I've gotta had to go to university. You've now had a few days off, and then you're back on, you're back on to get yourself ready for the 23 season. And I guess capitalize on the rankings that you now have.

Julian Cash  05:48

Yeah, there's not many galas on the Challenger Tour. That's for sure. But yeah, I mean, we've we've just got back like I've headed up here to Loughborough University. I'm on their their TAS program. So the coach up here has been been really good with me on the road. I've been away for a lot longer than I thought and a lot longer than he thought. So yeah, I've come back up here to help out the guys on the team. But also taking the time to rest and reset. But yeah, it's a quick turnaround. We've got this week off and then a couple of weeks preseason, and hopefully we can I mean waiting to find out cuts but hopefully we can get started pretty early in the new year. In some bigger events.

Daniel Kiernan  06:34

And no pictures from the Maldives Henry on Instagram.

Henry Patten  06:39

Absolutely not.

Daniel Kiernan  06:41

I actually challenged challenged Neal skupski on this. I'm gonna get in touch with Neil actually, as I left in it left to rain. I said, Hey, so what's, what's the plan the next couple of weeks Neal, and he said, are not just Liverpool, I'm just just hanging out in Liverpool. So I challenged him to take a photo in his swimming trunks in his garden in Liverpool to get on Instagram, so so he could be like the other tennis players. So I'm gonna have to get him. Get him on that one. The one the one thing when I was looking boys, I don't know if there's any internal competition the doubles players. Julian, you've won more matches this year. You're 81 and 14 in doubles? Henry, you're 77 and 14. But you're ranked one ranking place higher. So for the listeners? Can you explain that one? Well,

Julian Cash  07:30

I mean, it's not fair is it.

Henry Patten  07:35

I don't know how that that I guess. I probably it by some bigger events. Keep my standards high. So I assume that's how that's happened.

Daniel Kiernan  07:45

So does that is that it's some point, I guess next year, that will come to a bit more of an equilibrium. And you'll have you'll have the you'll have the same ranking.

Henry Patten  07:54

Yeah. It's been causing a lot of issues. So Julian's really, really been getting quite upset about it. So for the good of the partnership.

Daniel Kiernan  08:04

I hope so. Yeah. And that's the good guy that you are Henry. Yes.

Henry Patten  08:07

Yeah, exactly. I want the best for the team.

Daniel Kiernan  08:10

And Julian my one for you. Where I think it is so freakish. What you've done is is the scoring format. You know, I think you guys are you've played I believe 17 challengers, I believe. But obviously the run that you've been on, the scoring format in doubles tends to lead to a being a little bit of a crapshoot, you know, you've got your sudden death deuces, you've got your match tie breaks, you know, so to to keep going with that, you know, can you tell us a little bit about how how you guys managed to do that was that something you discussed as it you just got into such a flow, that it was just happening, but it is a little bit freakish that you won so much given that score and format?

Julian Cash  08:57

Yeah, I mean, if I think back to the start of our trip, we lost a lot of breakers. And so we definitely learned lessons from that. Some things we were doing wrong and key moments and also emphasizing the importance of maybe the not so big moments, you know, like when it is one or two or like if you can sneak a break then or you know, hold yourself when it's 40 love that that stuff, actually then helps you avoid being in that breaker or, you know, splitting sets, whatever it may be. So we learn a lot from doing it wrong at the start, I think. And then as we went through the trip, I think those big moments we just went back to basics would always have a little bit of a chat like you know if we'd split sets or whatever it was we'd be always referring back to the basics, kind of a little refresher of any tactics specific to the opponents that we were playing on the day. And then on top of that, I think confidence obviously began to play a part I think a lot of players didn't want to play us by the end. So also, how that was affecting them, I think would have added another element. And we also got to kind of a weird stage where maybe we didn't care as much. Like we, the emphasis on winning wasn't quite as high as maybe it was earlier in the trip, because we'd won a lot. And so the thought of losing wasn't so bad. So we were able to play free and we played a lot of really good breakers and even in matches that maybe we hadn't played that well, for an hour had found a way to a third, and we usually find some pretty good stuff come those crunch moments,

Daniel Kiernan  10:37

I think I have to have to pick you up on that point that, that not caring so much. You know, one of my one of my favorite sayings is having a tolerance for failure. You know, and I think when we when we're able to tolerate failure, we're actually then able to, to perform with freedom. What watching from afar, it felt like maybe it was getting more important, because you start the year around 585, 871, you ain't thinking about qualifying for Australian Open, you know, at the start of the year. But as the year goes, and you start to get towards that point, were you aware of what was happening with your rankings? Were you hyper aware of what's happening with the points? And what that maybe means in terms of, of the start of 2023? Because I think for any tennis player, to start in the main draw of the Australian Open is, is is where it's really at. So talk me through that. Was that not a weight that you carried?

Julian Cash  11:41

Yeah, I think to some level it was, but well, maybe my parts are pretty bad math done. At some point, I think. Because we're about six, eight weeks left to go on our trip, we thought we were only a few titles away from being around where we are now. And then after doing that, realizing we had a hell of a lot longer to go. So that kind of kept us thinking a little more short term. But again, I think we were like, we spoke to our coaches a lot while we're out there. And they helped us put it in perspective. Of course, we want to be in Australia, there's no doubt about that. And that is obviously why we finished those last two weeks that we did and and switch to the dirt on the last week was simply for that reason. But it was never a goal of ours when we started the trip. And so they kept that kept reinforcing that that. Obviously, it would be great. But if you could take where we are now and then the trip that's above what we would have expected and what we could have asked for. So yeah, it was just a shift of perspective. And I think, again, being at the end of a long trip, we were in such a good rhythm, week to week, just everything was kind of falling into place. You weren't having to think too much. And I guess people talk about being in the zone, like during matches and stuff, I would say, genuinely in the week, we were kind of in the zone, just taking care of things like everything was automatic handing rackets in to be strong, like, the whole thing was just like clockwork. So all of that I think distracted us as much as helped us.

Daniel Kiernan  13:12

And Henry that Julian mentions your coaches. And, you know, I think we need to give a big shout out Calvin Betten to Barry Fulcher. And I know Louie Cayer has also overseen it a little bit as he does as the as the maestro that he is. And those are three of the really, really good guys, you know, in in the sport. So what what sort of influence and impact have they had

Henry Patten  13:37

a huge influence? I mean, I think you put it while the they're just three really, really good guys. Obviously, we don't get as much contact with Louis. So having Calvin and Barry to work with us individually is just unbelievable. And they've been with us from the very start of our trip. Watching every match talking to us about every match, we would have loved to have taken them out with us really. But the reality is that playing doubles on the Challenger tour isn't particularly lucrative. So yeah, we had to kind of survive with Zoom calls and kind of meetings every couple of weeks. But yeah, I mean, having having coaches, even when they're not with you, just to remind you of small things to give you confidence relief and to help guide some of the decisions that you're making. Yeah, it was unbelievable. And then yeah, fortunately, when we came back to Europe, they joined us for the last few weeks housing in in Italy and Barry in Portugal. I think that couldn't have come at a better time really just to help really kind of push us through those last few weeks. So yeah, I mean, they they have been as important as us really in terms of VAs exact on on that mammoth trip,

Daniel Kiernan  14:57

but does it give almost an extra layer of accountability. I always think a lot of coaching can be done remotely as well, especially nowadays that you can watch the matches. You know, so once you once you're playing the Challenger tour, the matches are all streamed. So even going into those matches, you know, someone's with you, even though you can't see and feel them.

Henry Patten  15:23

Yeah, I think it definitely helps. I don't know about accountability, I'd like to think that I me and Jules and Cal and Barry are pretty locked into every match that that we play. I think it's just nice to know that, that we have a great team supporting more than anything.

Daniel Kiernan  15:42

And Julian, I know you guys haven't had lots of Louis time yet. But Barry and Calvin certainly have, you know, I know they're, they're very much disciples of, of Louis system. And I've spent a lot of time with him over the years. What impact has he had on you guys? And I guess my second part to that question is, the walk is now being walked. You know, it's been walked by a lot of players now over the last 10 years. So in terms of your mindset, as British tennis players as British doubles, players, your achievements incredible, but you're kind of going along a path that many have already gone. How, how helpful has that been?

Julian Cash  16:25

Yeah, if I go back to the start, I mean, I actually called Louis when me and Henry agreed to play together and he kindly gave us a session. We ended up doing like three hours with him of pretty regimented stuff and we didn't didn't drink once, we kind of laugh about it now, like literally did not take a sip of water in three hours. Just picking us apart. I mean, we'd not played a point together. So you know, Louis, as well as our site, you can imagine how how bad we looked out there. So like, but that got us on the, on the same page from ball one. So if I go back to our 25, k's and Nottingham, it was far from perfect, but we kind of knew what we were doing. And it was from from day one, we were progressing together in the right way. So that was huge. And like you said, I mean, seeing so many guys have the success that they have, over the you know, the past few years is it's kind of incredible. And Louis gave me and Henry a lot of confidence, like individually as well, obviously, you know, he's someone who's seen the best of the best. And he's worked with a lot of them as well. And so getting positive reinforcement from him is, you know, it means something. So yeah, when I think back to like, we joined Joe for a couple of sessions on the clay actually in the middle of those 25K's. And, you know, he was, like, pretty nice to us, which isn't necessarily always what you hear, but he was really nice. And he gave us a lot of confidence and said look like if you guys want to go down this route, like it's there for you to go and take so yeah, it has given us a lot of confidence to know that it's it is possible and since then, we've had a chance to train with a bunch of these guys and see the level and I know I do but I believe Henry as well. Like we feel like it is achievable.

Daniel Kiernan  18:24

And on that I also saw on social media that quite a few of those guys were were tweeting or putting putting posts up or congratulations to you guys as well. It seems like there's a there's a really nice team feeling as well, Henry.

Henry Patten  18:41

Yeah, I mean, we're we're obviously pretty new into that group. As Julian mentioned, we're going to be going into preseason with them. But yeah, you're right. I mean, we both both had messages over a lot of the weeks from from Neal from Joe and from Ken kind of congratulating us. So yeah, I mean we're both really excited to kind of get more into that group and most importantly try and learn as much as we can from them really yeah it's incredibly inspirational to see what they're all doing hopefully on we're on the same path and and and yeah go and get a good couple of weeks with the with the best in the world can't really get much better than that.

Daniel Kiernan  19:23

And expectation Julian it's it's a word I talk a lot about on this podcast I I always think expectation can be the devil. You know when there's a gap between reality and expectation we always have have a problem and you know, winning 81 out of 95 doubles matches last year. You know, winning I believe it's what 66 But as a team out of 76 matches. You you end the year with this unbelievable feeling. But next year is different. You know, you you move into into the big leagues. How are you guys going to manage that expectation? And is that something you and your team has discussed?

Julian Cash  20:09

We haven't discussed that specifically. But I think we're all aware of what we've done. But in a pretty humble way, like we weren't far from where we need to be and where we want to be. So we've not come off this trip thinking how good we are, I think we all know exactly what we need to improve. And I think going into this preseason, like, I'm sure Louis is going to help remind us exactly what we need to improve. So I think there's obviously expectation and I know that a lot of that also comes like externally, like people talk and stuff like that. But I think for us inside our team, I don't think there is a huge amount of expectation like it's at the end of the day, it will be our our first round that we got into on our own if we do get in. And I think we need to enjoy that as potentially like a little bit of a celebration of of the year we've had, and go from there. Like I said, there's lots of improve, we, which is a really good thing to sit where we are and know that there's a lot to get stuck into is a great thing. I think so. Yeah, I think our team is helping us kind of deal with that, I suppose.

Daniel Kiernan  21:18

And the and the other word that jumps to mind. And you've already mentioned and I think both of you have is perspective. And, and when I look at you know, both of you guys, you know, and I know both of your journeys relatively well. Often through coaches, obviously, Henry, your, your college coach was my roommate, you know, so I heard it heard a lot about your your journey well, before you would have known me, and Julian Barry, Barry's a good friend of mine. And I often think this one with people to play University tennis, you know, and but I also think two Julian, in particularl with yourself, when you've had so many injuries, and it was such a stop, start few years, that it almost can feel like bonus time. You know, whereas kind of people in their teens or early 20s, who are they have to be tennis players? And that's what they have to do they they then struggle with that perspective. Now that you've been through that, do you think that challenging journey you've had, and I go back to I was in Greece, when you rocked up and you were there for like 12 hours? You walked on the court rolled your ankle and then got on the flight and went back in after that had been happening quite a few times? How much do you think that is now helping you?

Julian Cash  22:38

Yeah, I mean, well, I'd like to point out that Barry took the first flight home there, he left me in Greece with a destroyed ankle. But yeah, it has helped a lot. I think the college experience first of all, gives you a great chance to mature. If I would have thought back and about knowing now what it takes to get anywhere in both singles and doubles, like through the futures tour and whatever. If that was me at 17, 18 I don't think it would've looked look very pretty. Although I was playing good tennis, then it's I feel like that's a pretty small factor at that time. So the college thing has been huge. And then like you mentioned the injuries. I mean, there were multiple times when I Well, if I take my shoulder surgery, I didn't think I was gonna be playing competitive tennis again. Even to the point where like, I couldn't serve for a long period. And I even was questioning like, I could be a terrible coach as well. You know, I can't even serve at my clients at this rate. So it does it feels you know, I all my time on the court after that be it even some of the rehab staff like wasn't necessarily the most enjoyable stuff but actually in the moment I was loving it. Being able to be out on court and just enjoying the small things that are very easy to take for granted. It's such a long journey that you know, it is easy to forget how lucky you are being out there and if you're able to turn that into a career then then it is a huge bonus. So yeah, it's helped ground me throughout this period and definitely now obviously having a successful year and kind of getting too close to a place that I want it to be. It feels even better.

Daniel Kiernan  24:26

Very good. And and Henry both aged 26 singles was also going okay, you know you've been you know putting some decent singles results out there. Is is this now the time that you part ways with singles or is it still within you that you want to continue the singles journey as well?

Henry Patten  24:49

I don't think I'll ever completely write off ever playing singles again. I think for both of us we both planned when we went out to the states to We play singles in the challenges. As long as we got in which we weren't doing, we weren't getting into the qualifying. But the decision to focus on doubles sort of made itself when we started to have success on the doubles court. So the in the challenge is to Double Fine or, as on Saturday, and then singles qualifying starts on Sunday and in a different place. So it just became impossible, impossible to do to do both really. And I think that's sort of been a blessing. I don't think that we would have had the success that we've had if we'd been trying to balance singles and doubles. We've been able to put a lot a lot of hours into into training specific doubles lessons and drills, and all sorts that I don't think we would have had the time or energy to do on on such long trip. But yeah, obviously a part of me will always be a little bit sad about about not playing singles, right, it was going going well but can't really complain. When we look back and and see where we are now.

Daniel Kiernan  26:08

It was very early 26. It's you're very young, you're very young. Doubles close, Junior.

Julian Cash  26:13

Yeah, I mean, I think back to what I'll point out as well, my career wasn't quite going as well as Henry's from the single Scott but it was still a difficult decision. And, like Henry said, the fact that that was kind of made for us. Definitely made it easier. One week stands out to me, was Granby. I was in quallies Henry actually snuck in main draw that week. I want to match. So I played Sunday, Monday. And we started Tuesday, one round, so he played Tuesday, Wednesday. So we were like four days in had won our first round Dubs, and we hadn't played any doubles. And so it was not really a great place to be actually for, for what we wanted. So yeah, I think that was one of the last ones that we played. But yeah, we are young. But I see that as a as positive. You know, we've got years ahead of us. Like I said, before, we got lots to improve. Hopefully we can use some of our physicality as I guess the young guns on the dubs court. Yeah, see where it takes us.

Daniel Kiernan  27:20

And And what about highlight? There's been there's been a lot, you know, when you talk about 17 tournament wins playing your first Grand Slam, obviously, you guys joined, joined the team for the Wimbledon, Wimbledon review, preview, Wimbledon preview, you know, this year, and Lizzie and Olivia have gone on and had a fantastic year as well. Were taking all the credit here Control the Controllables for that. But what is the real highlight and stand out for you, Henry of this year.

Henry Patten  27:54

For me, this probably would have been on the Wimbledon preview I sort of repeat but for me still, the moment I go back to winning that that challenger in Surbiton and on our debut in our first challenger, you know, we didn't really have a clue what we were doing what was going on we we got a last minute wildcard and and thought we would turn up for probably one man having cold showers. But yeah, if I had to go back to the moment that was just pivotal in, in obviously us as a pair and individually after is that that really helps us to, to believe obviously gave us a lot of ranking points. And I think set us on our journey. Yeah, that's the moment I go back to.

Daniel Kiernan  28:43

And isn't that doesn't that also show one of the advantages of being from a Grand Slam nation as well, you know, that if you think you know, there's to have on grass, those big events that you guys got the opportunity for which you would you earnt and took the door opened a little bit and you absolutely jumped through that door, then got your first Grand Slam opportunity. But it that time I think it is it's important. Sometimes we appreciate how fortunate we are to come from a Grand Slam country as well.

Henry Patten  29:17

Yeah, I think that the more tournaments, the more domestic tournaments and opportunities that that you give people you know, the more chance there is there will be success stories. So So yeah, we feel very lucky to have been given that opportunity.

Daniel Kiernan  29:31

And what about yourself, Julian he's taken is taken service and so you can't jump to Surbiton.

Julian Cash  29:38

Yeah, I mean, there's honestly a couple that stand out. But if I was to go for one other than that, I would probably be the last one. We won. You know, We're obviously fighting for Australia. We kind of knew that. If we didn't make final It was absolutely no chance we're going. So there was a lot of pressure we had also made a switch to the clay. Which if anyone knows me or Henry's not a pretty sight. So yeah, that one that one was pretty special. We played two guys who had done extremely well in the doubles last year and a lot of that was on clay. So that was a huge challenge for us and we embraced it. So to come out with the title there and obviously it topped off our season it would have been a shame in a way to finish the season on a loss after after so many titles, so it felt felt really good that way.

Daniel Kiernan  30:31

And that I'm sure Barry told you, but that that was my Maya in Portugal. That was my first ever international tournament age 12 With with Barry. And a bit of a funny story I was I'd never been on an aeroplane before. So so on that on that on that trip. And Barry sent me the picture. On that trip. When I got on the aeroplane. All the boys were taking the piss out of me. And they told me that it was 20 Pence to go to the toilet. So so I didn't have I didn't have any money on me. So I was walking around the aeroplane asking people for 20 Pence to go to the toilet. And that was our that was our first trip. So I'm sure that was a special one for Barry as well. You know that that? That that happened to tell me. Tell me that moment, Henry, you've, you've won that you finally I guess can come out the bubble that you'd almost been in. You know, you've been in this bubble for months and just going and going and going. That's very clear. How was that moment? How did you celebrate? Please tell me you didn't fly that evening. Please tell me at least at a celebration evening in Portugal?

Henry Patten  31:45

No, we didn't fly that evening. But I caught a flight at 8am the next day and Julian I think at around 930-10 The next day, so we weren't able to celebrate too much. Yeah, the moment. The moment we won, I think was one of the me at least was one of this kind of relief. And kind of relaxation was an amazing feeling. But yeah, we went out for a few beers and Barry was there, So I went out having a nice dinner, kind of gathered our initial reflections. But to be honest, we were just absolutely desperate to get home. Having Flown through sands that a couple of weeks before from Canada, on the way to Italy we've done well to not kind of get on the first train home from there. So yeah, we were just desperate to get home. And yeah, obviously that that's a great feeling.

Daniel Kiernan  32:42

And what is it that you miss most from home?

Henry Patten  32:45

I don't know. Nothing in particular, Well, actually, two things I would say is one not living out of a suitcase every week as you say three things but not living out of a suitcase my own bed definitely not sleeping in you know hotels and strangers beds, host families bed by the way struggle phenomena

Daniel Kiernan  33:11

Go down this route on the podcast, you know we can

Henry Patten  33:14

Host families over in space. Thank you. But yeah, nothing quite like your own bed. And also just not traveling. Planning travel for the next week. Not not feeling rushed and like you have to go on a flight and arrange transport and, and all the rest of it. Yeah, so so that's what I mean.

Daniel Kiernan  33:37

Because they're stressed out it's stressing that whole and you're thinking as well, I'm like, God, I've got if I do, we do lose off, we win. We got the flight that goes there and then we got it, then we can do that. And it is it's more stressful than people realize.

Henry Patten  33:50

Yeah, it's just a lot of more things that that you have to take care of. And unfortunately, the nature of tennis the details of your plans don't become apparent until later on in the week. So it's all very last minute. Lots of small details. So yeah, it's nice. Nice to be back and and take a good week off to relax. What about yourself, Julian?

Julian Cash  34:16

I think yeah, I also don't like staying in a stranger's beds. No, I think being home for me food first of all. And suitcase. I hate my suitcase with a passion. And then on top of that, yeah, Henry's right. I think it's very draining all those small details. We probably twice on the trip booked the flight earlier to try and save a few pennies and try and I don't know make less decisions and both times it went horrifically wrong and cost us more money. So we learned our lesson there to just suck it up and if you win, then fly next day if you lose then fly next day. Bye Yeah, it's draining and stuff, like, they're not big decisions in many ways, but they're always there. And as soon as one decision is made, the next one pops up.

Daniel Kiernan  35:09

I remember when I stopped playing around your age, actually. And when people asked me, I said, I was ready to have my toothbrush in a toothbrush holder. And it was that sort of feeling of getting the toothbrush out of the out of your bag every time or whatever it might be. And, you know, I can completely understand that. But you've got it for a few more years, boys, because you've got an exciting career ahead now and, and Henry as we move into 2023, what are the what's the team's goals? What are you? What are you looking to achieve? In 2023?

Henry Patten  35:46

Yeah, it's, it's a good question. It's a bit of an odd one, just because of where we sit in the rankings now. So combined rank 140, will get you in. So obviously, hopefully, hopefully, grand slams we'll see, borderline and some 250s it all really just depends on the cut. So yeah, unfortunately, we're gonna have a few more last minute decisions to make. We'll have to see what we get into. I think in terms of goals, nothing really too tangible. I think. For me, definitely. Probably for Julian, we don't really want to put too much pressure on ourselves, I think. I think we really just want to focus on kind of doing the work day in day out, trying to give ourselves every opportunity to transition onto the main floor and play play every opportunity that that that we get on the mentor, and kind of see how it goes from there. But yeah, with where am I ranking, right with our ranking being where it is? It's kind of difficult to plan and schedule and set goals because you're not quite sure what, what's going to happen. But we're looking forward to it. We're looking forward to sit down

Daniel Kiernan  37:03

Julian Harry, Heliovaara and Lloyd Glasspool started 2022, as 78, and 64, which if my maths is correct, is 142 as a team 70 And 69 is 139. As a team, they ended 2023 as the number five doubles team in the world, played in the ATP tour finals, maybe just follow follow their path, you know, take their take their tournament schedule, follow their results. And we'll see you in Turin.

Julian Cash  37:41

Yeah, it sounds like you're trying to put expectations on us. But yeah, look, I mean, they've had a fantastic year. But like touching on one of your questions earlier, it shows what can be done. And it's nice that that pathway has been walked by other people, people that we know and can interact with and learn from. So yeah, I don't want to say that's a goal by any means. But it does show it's possible. So we're going to go in and take our chances when they come and go full steam ahead.

Daniel Kiernan  38:10

My boys, well done, well done on behalf of the tennis world, you know, like it's, I always think when when achievements like this happen, it's you got to the stage where so much was was written about it for you to do that in doubles on the challenger tour to special achievement, you know, because often those things got under the radar. So, a big well done, you know it, enjoy that little bit of rest that you do have, you know, get and then knuckle down and you go again, but before you go, we have our quick fire round. Which are you ready for?

Henry Patten  38:50

Sure. I don't know.

Daniel Kiernan  38:52

So first question, Henry. You're gonna go first. Second question. Julian goes first. You've got the pattern third, Henry. Fourth, Julian, let's see if you can work as a team on this boys. No talking over each other. What What does control the controllables mean to you?

Henry Patten  39:15

Dan Kiernan phrase.

Daniel Kiernan  39:18

The best answer so far, Henry. Julian,

Julian Cash  39:24

to me, was hard to follow that, to me control the controllables is doing everything you can day in day out. Give yourself the best chance to succeed and to follow the path that you want to.

Daniel Kiernan  39:40

The Bryan's or the Woody's

Henry Patten  39:44

Bryan's for me, hold on.

Daniel Kiernan  39:47

you've gone against the pattern.

Henry Patten  39:49

Well, sorry.

Julian Cash  39:52

This is all new Dan. I'm sorry. I asked me the same question as Henry so it made it seem like that was question two

Daniel Kiernan  40:00

Okay, there's

Henry Patten  40:02

my first answer, by the way

Daniel Kiernan  40:06

Eight or nine questions to answer them, you both answer them. But Henry goes first on the first one. Do the second with me.

Henry Patten  40:17

Thank you for explaining that. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  40:19

We're Bryan's or Woody's.

Julian Cash  40:22

I'm going Bryan's

Henry Patten  40:27

I will also go Bryan's. I grew up playing tennis and my brother and he's a right hander. And on the left hand side big inspiration.

Daniel Kiernan  40:36

So so the woodies the Woody's were lefty righty as well. So the the the lefty righty combo. Is that is the one Hey, it was not as bad as your answer that you gave when you pick Kasatkina to win Wimbledon. So that's all right.

Henry Patten  40:53

Thanks, again.

Daniel Kiernan  40:56

So this is the third question.

Julian Cash  40:58

Think it's your turn Henry. I'm ready.

Daniel Kiernan  41:01

Would you prefer to be top 120 in the world in singles, or top 20 in the world in doubles?

Henry Patten  41:12

Top 20 doubles no brainer.

Julian Cash  41:17

I also got top 20 doub;es Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  41:20

Top 70 singles are top 20 doubles

Henry Patten  41:25

I got to top 20 doubles so you have to do better.

Julian Cash  41:29

Yeah, I'm going doubles as a great lifestyle. So I'm going to top 20 doubles.

Daniel Kiernan  41:34

Top 60 singles. Top 20 doubles

Henry Patten  41:40

20 doubles to me

Julian Cash  41:41

I think the only way it would switch for me is if I were if I was like main draw Masters. So I don't know what that is like 40, 45 That's when I would maybe go the other way.

Daniel Kiernan  41:57

That might save us going through all of the ranking.

Julian Cash  42:00

That was my plan.

Daniel Kiernan  42:02

We could have asked that at the start should it be five sets in men's doubles at Wimbledon or three sets?

Julian Cash  42:12

I think three sets personally because well know where else goes five and the grass is extremely fast and I would say maybe doesn't always make for the most exciting that was matches very served dominant so I think three sets personally Yeah,

Henry Patten  42:31

I would agree three is that I think biceps is so far away from the norm and doubles with the two sets and a breakout and yeah on the graph the points tend to be pretty pretty short and not that interesting a lot of the time so so yeah, go through

Daniel Kiernan  42:47

Aussie Aussie Open men singles winner 2023

Julian Cash  42:53

If Novak's allowed in the country hard Novak I think tough to talk to look elsewhere. Yeah, I'll

Henry Patten  43:02

find out like as well I think his record in 2022 was pretty unbelievable given how little Tennessee was able to play

Daniel Kiernan  43:10

so we're not ready for the young guns quite to take over his mantle yet

Henry Patten  43:15

I think it's it's it's getting close I think it is getting close lately since that no about maybe a little bit more fragile out there rappers seems to be struggling a bit more so I think it is going to come in the next one two years but yeah, it's tough to go against Novak in Australia Roger or Rafa I have to go Roger I love Rafa as well though he's a lefty but game style wise

Julian Cash  43:45

I was gonna say you play like

Henry Patten  43:49

a little bit lower than more stimulus the raw god for that thing so anyway

Julian Cash  43:54

yeah I'm also Roger through and through spent my whole life watching him he's I think made tennis kind of what it is in today's age really brought the level up and you know pushed Novak and Rafa on and everyone else to the level they're at so for me Roger for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  44:14

And what's one rule change you would have in tennis specifically to doubles

Julian Cash  44:21

I personally would like to see a full third set but keep the sudden death deuce

Henry Patten  44:28

is a good one. On a little bit I'm not sure on this one are we allowed to use like video replays and stuff for the ATP tournaments? I feel like they were using it in Turin I'm not sure about the rest. But if not like Video, Video replays and I'm trying to look at look at replays or Hawkeye no not Hawkeye so not not. I know there's all kinds that like double bounces or Double hits or whether they reached over the net. I'd like to see the ability to play The challenge those decisions as well,

Daniel Kiernan  45:02

like they have in American football or they also have it in football now so VAR

Henry Patten  45:07

they do Yeah, yeah every I think most sports that kind of transitioning over a bit more drama to it.

Daniel Kiernan  45:14

And who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables

Henry Patten  45:21

When was the last time cow pals and barrier?

Daniel Kiernan  45:24

There's there's not been on for a while, but they've obviously been on but they've not been on for a while.

Henry Patten  45:29

I would say it'd be quite funny to get Cal and Baz on in the same call. Two very contrasting personalities are both quite funny in their own right.

Daniel Kiernan  45:39

And what topics do you want them to attack? Oh,

Julian Cash  45:43

I'd love to just United I'd love to hear them talk

Henry Patten  45:47

a lot about us obviously. A little bit on the LTA I think just a bit of spice. And then their own individual journeys and tennis because, honestly, they're so different. Yeah, I think I think that would be a good little combo that.

Julian Cash  46:05

Julian This is a tough one. I think I don't know if they always been on. Well, I would if it wasn't for now I'd go slightly out of the box. I'm gonna go for Charlie broom.

Daniel Kiernan  46:20

Oh, yeah. Yeah, he would be interesting.

Julian Cash  46:23

He's, yeah, good story, and, you know, works hard. And he's he's a stage in the game that a lot of people don't necessarily look at kind of transitioning from futures challenges. So I think it'd be a good one.

Daniel Kiernan  46:36

Boys, you'd love to connect me. I've not got his number. So you'll have to connect me and we'll get we'll get him on. But thanks so much for coming on. Boys have have a great preseason. And, and good luck in Australia. And I look forward to seeing you guys in a few weeks in London.

Julian Cash  46:52

Thanks a lot, Dan. Appreciate your time.

Daniel Kiernan  46:55

Cheers, guys. And as I said at the start of the episode, it's a few weeks since I spoke to the boys and great news that they got in to the event at the Australian Open, you know, all of that hard work. And that extra push at the end of the year was well worth it. They've started the year in great style. They, they made the semi finals of the ATP 250 event in Pune in India. And then they've just actually I found out last in a tight match today and Adelaide before they're moving on to their first Grand Slam that they've made through ranking. And I have no doubt I was fortunate enough to spend a few days with the boys in preseason in London because an exciting announcement from myself is I have started working with the doubles pair Lloyd Glasspool, who I coached from a very early age age of 10 or 11. And his partner Harry Heliovaara, and it's been an absolute pleasure to be spending time with those boys. I'm not out in Australia, where previous commitments already, but the boys have made a great start winning the 250 out in Adelaide last week. So I'm excited for that. And excited to see how Henry and Julian are going to progress this year, I have no doubt that we'll be seeing them in the top 50 in the world very soon, and playing the highest level events. So all the best of them. And the other one I would like to give a shout out to on the other two is the two coaches of Julian and of Henry and that's Barry Fulcher who and Calvin Betten. Again, two just great guys, you know, proper tennis people that are doing it for the right reason, they're trying to make a difference and have been now for 20 years plus with with many, many players out there. And for those guys to get a chance to, to get into the big shows and have have that opportunity where without a doubt they've got the quality to do it. It's great to see that as well and very inspiring for up and coming coaches as well to see, you know, the work that they put in at a club level at a county level and at a national level. And here they are producing more and more players. As they go on and Henry and Julian they've they've put in a real shift. I know I know. Barry has worked for years and years and years and years with Julian Cash and you know, to get that reward at the end of it. And to see those boys playing on the big stage is fantastic. So big shout out to you boys as well. I know that you were called out to come back onto the podcast so we'll we'll see if we can arrange to get you on together to talk tennis. And and yeah, as as for lessons. I don't have Vicki next to me, I feel I'd love to have Vicki to discuss this one. Unfortunately, she's, she's down with the dreaded COVID. It just doesn't seem to be going away. So you're going to have to just hear my thoughts on this one. And I think my big one is just how as role models, we talk a lot about role models on this on this podcast and Carlos Alcaraz love him amazing Coco Gauff amazing, but they're not the role models that we want to set out for the kids to have, because not many players are going to be that special at the ages of 16, 17, 18. And for us to be able to see that there's more than one way to skin a cat, there's, you know, you go through the stories of players that are playing at these grand slams, and who have longevity and have longevity in the sport. You know, Julian is doing his master's degree at at Loughborough University, Henry has been through the whole system as well as Julian in America, both of them, you would say, have had relatively mediocre singles careers, I know that Henry was starting to push on a little bit. But then the fact that they have now branched out into being having these, this incredible opportunity now on the doubles court, so I think that's, that's the first thing you know, keep going, stay persistent. keep persevering. You know that those are the skills that really count in this sport, they really do. And you never know when your time is going to be. And if you expect that it's going to come easy, it's not, but you keep doing it day in and day out, you never know where it might take you. So I think that's a massive message. The second one for me is actually, I think it's about time we gave a little bit more respect to these doubles players, you know, and, and what they're doing, you know, we talked about that during the pod what what is the comparative ranking of which you would take and it was, it was very high, you know, they it was very high, they talked about, well, actually, unless they were of a certain ranking singles, then actually, the doubles is the way that they would go. And that was something that my college coach, actually, Jeff Brown said to me many years ago, and it's something I really took on board, he said, for him, as a tennis player, it's about playing the highest level of events that you can. And if that's in singles or doubles, then we only have a relatively short life, and we have a relatively short tennis life. You've got to go and do what you can to play the biggest events and have the best experiences. That's something that I certainly took on board. And for these guys that choose the route to push forward to playing the big events in doubles. They're brilliant tennis players, they're working incredibly hard. And I really hope that we can start to televise it more, we can start to get their names out there a little bit more. So those are a couple of things that I would take from today's episode. I hope everyone is well wherever you are, you know, and if you're new year has started with a bang. You know, wishing you all the very best as you go into the rest of 2023. We have Australian Open at amazing it's starting right in less than a week. So less than a week's time the Australian Open will be on our TVs. I certainly haven't been getting a lot of Sleep watching the boys through the night. The timings haven't been too kind to me so far. But that's okay. If Harry and Lloyd keep winning, the British pairs of British players keep winning out there. I have no problem getting up in the middle of the night. So enjoy, enjoy the Aussie Open. We are bringing together the Aussie Open preview in the next few days. So watch out for that one. I'd love to hear your thoughts and as I said at the start of the show, it's been a while since I've made a plea but get these podcasts out there please share them on your social media, like them, rate them review them. It makes a real big difference to to what happens to the podcast and then we can attract better guests for you. We can continue bringing this to you and that's what our our plan and promised to you is for 2023 So all the very best but until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables