Is Opelka Right - Should Doubles be Scrapped?

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 187, of Control the Controllables. And I'm joining you from Miami, the masters 1000 events going on here, Miami, I've been over in the States for the last two weeks Indian Wells. And in Miami and I'm not complaining, there's no hardship, you know, I've, I've done many a year at a difficult venue. And I must admit, I am enjoying my time here at the sunshine slam in India Wells in Miami. But we have an exciting episode coming up for you today where we're going to be looking into you might have seen over the last few days, Reilly Opelka, has made some big bold statements around, cancel, doubles get rid of doubles from the ATP tour, we're going to be looking into that later in the show with Jamie Murray, the seven time doubles Grand Slam champion who's had an incredible career, and also Calvin Betten, who was the coach to the British pair, Julian Cash, and Henry Patten who are having such a great 2022 And now moving into 2023 as they're moving into the top 60 in the world. So that's going to be a discussion well worth listening to. I think it's an important topic as, as we look into tennis as a product, you know, where do we go next? It's much talked about, we know that in the ATP meeting, actually, tomorrow night here in Miami, one of the topics on the agenda is a review of doubles, how does that fit in, and I hope you're gonna enjoy that. But before that, I just wanted to share a few of my thoughts, you know, of, of, of these fantastic events that previously I just watched on the TV. And I think it a lot of learnings for me to take from the last couple of weeks. And first and foremost, ultimately, everyone is a human being everyone is is dealing with their own battles, regardless of the level that you are you are playing in. And that's been that's been true. Seeing across the board, everyone's experiencing the same doubts, the same fears. You know, we might think as junior tennis players that it all gets better, and we don't have to experience that. But as we go through the levels of tennis, there is many, many similarities. And it's been great for me, you know, meeting up with so many of the podcast guests, you know, as I'm walking through the cafeteria, but one person who I've spoken to quite a bit about the podcast is Cameron Norrie who gave his time up. And if you haven't heard Cameron's amazing podcast that he did 18 hours before he played Diego Schwartzman at the US Open, it's well worth listening to. And he came up to me and he said, when's the next one out, you know, I've been I've been looking, I went on to my podcast app the other day, and I was disappointed that there isn't a new podcast out well, her you go Cam, hopefully this will be a one that you will enjoy. And it's great to know that the likes of Cameron are listening to control the controllables and, and taking so much from it as well. So thank you for that. And before I move into my next couple of of learnings from from the trip so far, I'm excited, ecstatic and so pleased, especially for the team that you don't always see, you know, you hear my voice and you get to hear Vicki at the end of the podcast as well. But there's so many people work hard to make these podcasts happen. And Control the Controllables we've been nominated again for the sports Podcast Awards, which we, how we did it, I will never know the awards that we won last year, the 2022 Awards and let's see that you know, we'll we'll share the voting platform in our podcast notes. Last year, the support was off the charts and you taking your time. It's free to vote but it does take a little bit of time. But you going out there you spending the time to vote and show your appreciation for the podcast meant that we were the winners and what that does to a podcast like ourselves, it gets it out there. You know it gives us credibility. It means we get more chance of getting on better guests, we get more chance of pushing this podcast forward and continuing to bring it to you guys. So please do that and share it with your friends, get them on there voting, for Control the Controllables for tennis podcast of the year. And thank you in advance for doing that for us. And good luck to the other tennis podcasts, there's lots of amazing podcasts out there. So all the very best. Now, one of the things I thought, you know, coming to these events is, must be easy, you know, we see it on the TV and all these guys and girls, they they've made it, you know, and without a shadow of a doubt, there is some things that are easier, you know, the transport be picked up from the hotel, the food that is put on is absolutely fantastic for the players, although $100 For players and $35 for coaches. But we were still able to get a good feed with that. But I had a little joke with the guy saying I don't know, if they're expecting you to eat three times what I do. And if we had a competition, I don't think that would happen. Laundry, you know, getting your laundry done not having to search for a laundrette, you know, the locker rooms, you know, everything's in there, and, you know, you get your, the towels, nice showers, you know, well, well looked after all of those little bits, you know, court schedule, knowing knowing the match court that you're going to be playing on, you know, sometimes there's tournaments your kind of next match on. And that's difficult to know to plan, you know, making sure that you get that information. And then me I've had a bit of a bad tooth ache since I've been out here, and the doctor went in there and fully expecting that maybe I was gonna get sent to another doctor, and he prescribed didn't prescribe he gave me the antibiotics there. So you know, little things that just make life much, much easier being given new balls before practice. And you know that these are, these are the bits that for people to hit peak performance, it makes a big, big difference and anyone listening, that is making their way through the rankings. I know that these are the sorts of things that you really do crave, and it's taking care of these details. So that's that side. But there is challenges. You know, in a couple of times, I found myself saying, oh my goodness, I never imagined this would still be a problem at this level. And I guess the well documented court surface, you know, Indian Wells and the you know, we heard Medvedev constantly arguing with the with the umpires, the referees, and I just heard his interview there the end of the final with Carlos Alcaraz. As he made a joke as he as he's so good. He's so entertaining. But it was him against the court. But it's true. And Hawkeye did their research on that. And, you know, the one that I liked was Medvedev, serving 125 mile an hour average this year and last year, but when the ball crossed the baseline last year, it was 43 miles an hour and this year, 31 miles an hour. So the court surface decreased by by 25% in 12 months. And then the balls you know why? In the tennis world, we can't have one tennis ball across the board, but the pen balls that they were using. They were soft after a couple of games. And it really did make for a big challenge, you know, people were struggling with their serves. You know, the balls were dying on the rackets. You know, there was it's hard to get any free points. And the singles players in particular was slugging it out, and it can't be great for the body. And then you turn up to Miami, and it's the opposite. You know, the balls are flying. The balls are kicking up high and coming off the court. And certainly that's a challenge that sometimes we don't see on the television and practice courts. You know, you'd think that you could get a court whenever you want. But no, you know, they had an ITF Junior event at Indian Wells as well. And it was challenging at times to get a court, one story we got sent off to the local country club. And as it turned up, there was a big pickleball event going on 28 courts covered and there was the mix in the in of of the local club members playing in the morning, and we booked our court for 10 o'clock as we do we got there early warming up 45 minutes to prepare the mind and body. But we couldn't get on the court till about 1030 until until the doubles had finished on the on the Tuesday morning. And as the kind lady I think it was Betty came off the court. She was the over 65 Captain she said look, we'll come off now to give you guys the court to practice It was very kind of her, but we were still struggling to get on the court. And this is nice to see actually, in lots of ways because this is this is the reality, this is the reality of, of tennis around the world that, you know, courts are in demand. And that's great for our industry, it meant that we had to wait a little bit longer. And at times, you're not allowed to book a court with two players, you know, you have to have four players on a court and you can only get you 45 minutes slot. And, you know, I sometimes think those that are new to the sport, they don't realize that, you know, they think that it's, it's all, it's all going to come a little bit easier than that. And that was certainly good to see. And then in Miami here today, we had a call at five o'clock and the system went down, when to get the practice balls at 10 to five to be told that we didn't have a court anymore. We had to wait an extra hour before we could get onto the court, even though he'd already warmed up. And just very interesting to me, to see that there is still some of the same issues across the board. Being around these players, and I said it at the very start, the emotions are the same, you know, regardless of the junior event, a Grand Slam, a Masters 1000, whichever event you're playing, you know, the players still have confidence issues, they still find losing hard, they still get nervous, you know, they have good days, they have bad days, but it's about sticking to those processes, and giving those very similar messages as coaches, you know, across across the board. Yes, the, the level of peak performance is a little bit higher. Absolutely. And that's why they're playing these events. But it really isn't as different as you might think. I am gonna leave you there. I hope that little bits of insight from Indian Wells and Miami is interesting. Let me know if you want more of what you want to hear from over the next few weeks. Before I pass you over to our panel to discuss radio Palca and many other different players over the years, I've had something to say on this around around doubles, and where that fits within the world of tennis. My panel, I've got Calvin Betten coming on, and anyone that's heard Calvin speaky he speaks incredibly well. He's he's he's got great opinions, and he's not afraid to let them let them out there. Calvin is the coach of Henry Patten, Julian Cash, who have had a breakthrough, last 12 months on the ATP Challenger Tour making their way onto the ATP tour. And then we've got the great Jamie Murray, you know, who else could we get? When we're talking about doubles? Your seven time Grand Slam winning Jamie Murray, who has given certainly British tennis fans so much joy over the years alongside his brother Andy. Then last but not least, Noah Rubin, and anyone in the tennis world, you I'm sure you would have heard no, and his Behind the Racket Podcast. But also, you know, he's, he's, he's active on social media. He was a player that had a fantastic career, you know, really gave his all out there on the court, you know, won matches at Grand Slam level was lightning on his feet, you know, and he's someone who, again, within the tennis industry is very well known, and a great name for us to have. So I'm delighted that the three are going to be joining me. And let's let's discuss let's discuss doubles. So a big welcome to my panel. How how're you all doing?

Jamie Murray  13:40

Good.

Daniel Kiernan  13:43

It's, I'm delighted to bring you guys together. And we've got an important topic of discussion. You know, and I think it came on our screens last week, not for the first time and probably not for the last as long as the big man Reilly opelka announced to the world that we should just get rid of doubles, you know, like, like, we don't want any more Get, get rid of it. And like I say, he's not the first person to say, you know, over the last few years, we've had Bartoli we've had Dan Evans, he's had a few words back and forth with you, Jamie as well, that went public. We've had John McEnroe who was a doubles guy himself, that's also come out and said something similar in the last few years. And I just want to start with you Noah, really, do they have a point?

Noah Rubin  14:31

Yeah, know, it's intimidating having Jamie in the bottom right of my screen. If I say anything. I think I had a conversation with a few guys from ATP representatives that explicitly said that doubles was never supposed to be anything other than like an ulterior prize money income revenue stream for them. And that worries me because I actually think I mean, I think if you market the doubles specifically, that's what people come into the sport recreationally. I think there's a lot ought to be set there. But if the people that are running it, for the most part are not willing to put out the marketing for it to help it grow and become stagnant to some extent, I think that's what worries me. And I think that's kind of the point. I mean, obviously, Riley putting a tweet out or whatever, you know, there's a lot to be said for that. I don't think he would. And that was pretty abrasive. And that's kind of who he is. But I think that's kind of my biggest concern. When you look at something as a whole, you know, you can talk the Challenger tour, you can talk doubles, I mean, on all levels, if you're looking and you're not putting the marketing details into it, then what are we looking at as the point you know, if you don't want that to succeed, if the people in charge don't want it to succeed? Because that's what I've been told over the years, then what is happening here, you know, and that's kind of my worry, for doubles moving forward. Is the people in charge, are they going to put in work to make it happen?

Daniel Kiernan  15:54

And on that Jamie momentum of prize money, money talks, you know, and I certainly I certainly have some, some opinions around this, which I'm sure we'll get into as well. But momentum on the prize money isn't going in doubles. players favor, you know, if we look at I think now, you know, Grand Slams 20 years ago, I think was a 75, 25 split, it's now 88-12. And, and to you listening, that's not 12% per player, that's per team. So that's 6% per player, you know, when you start looking at that ATP to us currently, I believe in an 80, 20. Split. So again, or you could say an 80-10-10 split, you know, momentum is not going that way. So you who have done so much for the doubles game, Jamie over the last few years, and I'm sure being fighting this corner. What's What's your take on it? And when you hear Noah saying that, and I'm sure again, it's not the first time you've heard it. How does that make you feel? What's What's your your side of it?

Jamie Murray  16:58

Well, I think I don't know enough about the prize money, funds and stuff. I know that this year, they I don't know if the I think the prize money on the tour has always been at 80, 20 split. So I guess it's at 80-10-10. I don't know, how much that will change or, extend or whatever. I don't know, I'm not on the I'm not in the council. I don't know what those those conversations are. I mean, I think obviously, over the last like 10 years or so, I mean, the whole pie is got has got bigger as people are making more money than they than they ever had from the, from the sport, whether you're playing singles or, or doubles. And, you know, and people talk about getting rid of, of the doubles. I think that, you know, I don't know how genuine the conversation that actually that actually is I really I really don't know that. But I think you you're realistically getting rid of, you know, a whole host of, of players' careers or livelihoods in a sport, where, you know, traditionally so few people have been able to make a living from the game. So why would you want to wipe out even more players and take away those those opportunities? That would be my, my question. You know, some people say that, you know, the guys the doubles guys are making too much money. I would disagree with that. Just seeing some of the the money that the singles guys are, are making. But also, you know, you have the issue of, you know, the singles guys obviously making a lot of money, which fair play to them, you know, like these guys deserve it. They're amazing athletes, they can do amazing things on a tennis court. But, you know, last week for an Indian Wells, you know, there was two or three teams pull out again, after winning a round in the doubles. And you say, well, you complain that we're making too much money, but then you can't even be bothered to take the court. Because tomorrow, the following day, you're going to be playing for like 200 grand or something. But you don't want to make the effort for making 10 grand or 20 grand on the on the doubles court, which you know, I can I can completely understand that. Why would you why would you risk that when you've got that financial incentive tomorrow but then don't complain that there's the doubles guys are making too much money for me that doesn't really, that doesn't really add up. But yeah, I agree with what Noah says with the marketing and everything. I think that you know, the tour would probably say that the web doesn't doesn't move the needle, but then if you don't market the sport properly, then you're not giving it the best chance to succeed or not or not succeed, you know, and you can't say that the product doesn't want to well or doesn't do well if you're not giving every chance or you haven't given every chance for it to succeed. I would say that about it. You know, there's very little promotion on on social media and ATP channels, I would say it's very limited. And, you know, so much of sport these days is consumed through social media highlights packages and stuff. And, you know, I'm sure if you go to the ATP Instagram page, you probably see, you know, like 50 posts on, you know, the singles guys are superstars. Let's be honest, it's not, you know, the whole thing was to at least get that tourist promoting, there's, you know, there's the very, kind of very top end of the sport that those are the guys that get the headlines and the media, you know, the platform, you know, the rest of the guys are kind of, you know, in the same boat as the as the doubles. Guys, I I think personally, I guess that's some of my, some of my thoughts on it. But I think like the, you know, tournaments like, we were in Indian Wells last week. Yeah, well, yeah. But if you want to have 80,000 90,000 people coming through your, through your doors each day, you have to have content for those fans to consume, right? You can't just host the tournament on on two courts, you know, you need to be having 7, 8, 9 Match courts. And in order to do that, you need bigger draws you in singles, you need doubles matches going on. Otherwise, what if these people got to watch they're buying a ticket to then watch tennis on the big screen? Like it doesn't? It doesn't work like that. And I think people need to be more aware of that I think as well.

Daniel Kiernan  21:29

I think  be Carlfore you jump in here, I think my thing on it. Is anyone buying a ticket to watch Opelka player ? I'm not sure they are, you know, is anyone buying a ticket to watch Giron play? You know, like, you know, amazing athletes, amazing tennis players, I'm just not sure that you can differentiate a run of the mill singles player from a doubles team so much, you know, because Because actually, I think let's, let's get real here. And we were in Indian Wells last week, Jamie, it was the Alcaraz, Swiatek tech show. That's what it was, you know, every everything was set around to their night match, that the other matches are then decorated around that, like you said, to provide content to provide to provide a show, just like and if we take ourselves away from tennis here. You know, I you know, here in Miami, if I hear that Tiger Woods is playing a golf event in Miami this week, I'm paying a couple 100 bucks to go and watch that golf event for Tiger Woods. Now, whilst I'm there, I might see Matt Fitzpatrick get a hole in one. And that might be like, awesome. Like, the crowd goes crazy. And, you know, that really makes my day and I talk about about that as a big, big part of my entertainment package from the day. And I just think on live golf, your live golf paid 100 million for Phil Mickelson. You know, it's smart commercial way of working, right? That's, these are the people that are selling the tickets. And where I struggle is when anyone outside of the superstar status has too many grand opinions about getting rid of someone else's livelihood. Because I just I don't think that people are necessarily going to tennis tournaments to watch specifically to watch any players outside of the big names. Or, as an example, you Jamie in Scotland, people would be absolutely going to watch you whether you're playing singles, doubles, or tiddlywinks, you know if it's if it's got localized interest. And that's I think, where for me, it doesn't fully sit right and where, and it's the same. It's been the same argument over the years about women's tennis, you got guys 60 in the worlds and women shouldn't get paid as much as the men. And I think it was Andy who came out and said, dude, nobody gives a shit about you. You know, so they're paying the ticket to come and watch Roger and Serena, you know, and I just think that's, that's an important part of it. And you know, whether it's Singles Doubles, like you saying, it's an entertainment package, it's a ticket that you're that you're going you're specifically gonna see the superstar. But what comes with it is a highly entertaining doubles match or potentially a highly entertaining singles match as well. I don't know what you think of that cult.

Calvin Betten  24:23

Yeah, I mean, I think it's there's two parts to it. I mean, Jamie makes a really fair point that you've got to have content. And that's the main thing. I think that no matter how many courts you've got, you're going to charge people I think Wimbledon charge Wimbledon probably charging 50 quid this year for grounds pass. And, but once you get past day three or day four, probably about 30% of your content is going to be doubles. I think in one form or another in men's doubles, women's doubles, or mixed doubles on the outside courts. And that's what most people who were there are watching once you get into Wimbledon, and it was the same I was at Delray, two or three weeks ago, and it was the same then and there were People watching doubles matches so you then come into the second side of it, which is Reilly Opelka saying that he'd get rid of doubles because the only people that watch doubles are people who go to watch the singles players anyway. I don't know why anyone asked Reilly Opelka's opinion on anything to be honest. But that's, that's by the by. But the two lads who I coach we're playing Denis Kudla and Christian Harrison in the first round. And I think there were about 250 people there watching. Now all due respect, I think he's a great guy, but I don't think they were there to watch Denis Kudla, who was the only singles player on show. I watched Jamie and Mike last week play against Evo and John Peters. And again, Evo's a friend of mine, but the stadium was full. Don't think they're filling a stadium to come and watch Dan Evans. So that's not based in any sort of reality. The people who go and watch doubles are people who just really like watching tennis, and they don't care what it is they want to watch tennis, but you've got to put something on for them to watch at these tournaments. And if you only have the singles, most tournaments only have a 32 Draw. That means by the time you get to the second round, you've only got eight matches to watch. So you better find it if you're not paying, if you're not going to have doubles on you better find something else to fill the time or the next thing is though singles plays aren't getting the prize money either. Because they're not making as much money in terms of revenue from standard tickets and corporate tickets as well.

26:19

I think like we talked about that before Kierno, but it's like what Calvin says like, there's people, there's different types of people that go to a tennis event, right? Like there's people who, you know, are hardcore tennis fans who just want to get a ticket and they'll go watch everything they possibly can and consume as much as they can, in that, in the time that they're there. There's people who are probably casual fans who probably want to go to watch their, you know, superstar players, that's a priority for them to get a glimpse of Rafa or Novak or three or tech or, or whoever. And then there's people who are not tennis fans at all, but they want to go to an event and then they will consume whatever it is they've been in water. Or they won't even watch tennis, there'll be there sitting in the corporates and yeah, enjoying the the kind of hospitality aspects of it as well. And you have to cater for all those, all those different people. And if you don't have content for the people to consume the event, it doesn't become an event anymore. It's really just, I don't know, maybe it's a tennis tournament that's shown on two courts. But like you said, you can't sell  80-100,000 tickets at the US Open on a Thursday with only, you know, two or three courts in action, because not everyone can then watch any tennis.

Daniel Kiernan  27:40

But couldn't put when we talk about market and value and bring the you back in here, Noah on this. That the reality is we just talked there off air, about pickleball there's a $1 million match. Not with professional pickleball players, the tennis players. But if you put Donald Duck, Tom Brady, Oprah Winfrey and Taylor Swift and a mixed doubles court Center Court Hard Rock Miami next week, it would sell out. I'm sure the tennis would be pretty poor. If we're being honest. I mean, I've heard Donald's forehands not bad. But you know, I'm not convinced it's good. Because people want to see don't they want to see the influences in their world they want to they want to see the people that they can relate to almost do anything. So so my question to you, Noah is how do we get more not just doubles? Actually, I'd almost put the doubles guys and the lower ranked singles guys in a similar sort of bought, you know, how do we how do we make them into something that, that people want to come and see?

28:49

Yeah, I mean, I think this conversation, I mean, we, you know, when we spoken about, you know, the gender pay gap between men and women as well, you know, that's in such a specific sport, you know, the the fact that you can go to India and Wales US Open, whatever may be windy, and turn around, you have one of the best, you know, women athletes of all time, and then you have one of the best male athletes of all the time right next to them. And I think tennis is always for me come down to just awful marketing as a whole. You know, I feel like we're 15, 20 years behind other sports. So when you look at the product on just on men and women's side, I mean, we should be marketing that the combination of them too because I feel like I don't know if there's another sport. I mean, I guess you can include golf, but I'm using a more physical sport and I'm not sure it's another sport at this level of physicality that is this closely connected between men and women. And and I think when you're looking at doubles on that side, as well, it comes down to a marketing play. I mean, I talk to people all the time when I'm in New York, they only play doubles and they love watching it. It's high intensity when you know when you play college tennis, the doubles is very exciting. So I think it comes down to the fact that always been put on the back burner. So it's an it's a lose, lose. So that's like, okay, the doubles guys or women are not being marketed. So they're not bringing in as much money as they should not on the players, but that section, and then from there, it's just like, Okay, now we're just letting them kind of hang out to dry. So that's kind of my worry with it as a whole. And this is on tennis as a whole is just, we are 15 years behind the marketing scheme. So you have men and women, you know, as a whole on the tennis side that are struggling to get the money they deserve, because the market is not there. And then you have doubles, you know, which you were all fighting within ourselves, you know, the fact that another tennis player is saying that another tennis player should not be making a living, it shouldn't be that, you know, we should be helping each other. And, you know, tennis has kind of been in this place where we are fighting against each other. It's like a little bit of a civil war where we can't get out of our own bubble, we can't compete against other sports. And I think that's kind of where we've lacked in the past. And I think that's kind of where we've lost the evolution and doubles taken a hit from it. And it's in this kind of limbo stage

31:00

In terms of the marketing, but I think also in terms of the technical and tactical differences. I think a sport that is similar to tennis in that regard on what they could do with doubles is cricket. If you look at how cricket have changed, the different disciplines, the different scoring,

Daniel Kiernan  31:15

You've lost Noah.

Calvin Betten  31:20

But, but we have this sort of there's been this debate, I guess recently about whether doubles players are as good at tennis as a singles players. And I think it's, it's probably better to look at it in terms of how cricketers look at it. There's certain people who specialize in certain disciplines of cricket. There's also certain players who can play all the disciplines. But you don't look now maybe a few years ago we used to, but you don't look now it's those players who only played 2020 and see them as lesser cricketers than the guys who only play test or one days, or vice versa. And now you've got a situation where cricket is filling stadiums for all of their disciplines. And I don't see a reason why we can't do that in tennis. In that regard, and just it's just a different kind of marketing, I think. But it's also like I say it's the dismissiveness that kind of doubles plays have suffered recently of this idea that they're just they're just not quite as good. When I can tell you they are. It's, it's they they're better at doubles than the singles players out there just happened to be a few singles players who can play doubles. But if you put Daniel Medvedev and Andre rube live on a doubles call, they're not be in any of the top 20 doubles players, top 20 doubles pairs in the world. And I'd say even further down there not being any of the top 80.

32:38

I mean, I've brought it up before a few times, and been kind of shit on for it was like kind of the idea of doubles. Breaking off in a way. I mean, I think if you're talking about credit, which I'm trying to understand, I don't know. That side, I'll be honest with you. But you know, if you're saying they're filling stadiums, you know, for all the different genres of cricket, then there shouldn't be no reason why it doubles couldn't. And if it had his own marketing, if it had its own kind of, I don't know, stadium for it, I think there's love to be had, I mean, you keep it at the slams, you keep it at maybe even masters, but from there on, maybe have doubles tournaments, maybe that is the way that you know, the marketing could be there for the doubles. I mean, I'm not saying get rid of them. That's not my idea is just more give it to kind of the base that deserves rather than in the shadow of singles a little bit. And I have been shit on for that idea. But I just, I'm just trying to think of how doubles could have that platform and use its voice rather than kind of again, be under the shadow of, you know, singles where I can't remember the last time people were really talking about doubles finals you know, unless you know Kyrgios was like one of the last ones I remember people really going out of their way you know, and talking about it so it is constantly under the shadow of and I think I don't know maybe there's a way to bring it out from that.

Daniel Kiernan  33:57

I have to share a quick story and if Jack Sock's listening to this, then that's that's okay Jack, you can you can respond last last week in Indian Wells, and there's two sides to parts of the story. But I was sat there with the Skupski brothers. And it was quarterfinal of doubles there. And Jack walked past and said, Hey, Neal, I think he tried to play golf with him earlier in the week. He said, Look, let's play Sunday after our final. And Neal said, Well, I'm only in the quarters, dude. You know, like, there's a lot there's a long way to go here. And Jack, as he was he was walking on court a couple hours later to play Fognini Bolelli. He said, Well, this is our tough one tonight. But if we get through this one, then we'll we'll see you guys in the final on Saturday. And I must admit on Friday night as I watched Bopanna Ebden beat Isner Sock six and five. There was a smile on my face. You know, thinking You know, just a little bit of humility wouldn't go wouldn't go astray however it's that subtlety you know we talk a lot about subtle sexism but there's there's this subtle doubles ism that seems to happen and and the same thing happened on Twitter Mardy Fish Sock and Isner had just won their, I think quarterfinal match or whatever it might have been and he wrote by far the best doubles team in the whole world if they if they played, bar none, not even close. Did it you know like he went really big on it. And again, he didn't realize probably that he's doing it but it's that whole thing like you're saying Noah of living in the shadow. This this disrespect you know this disrespect for it. And, Jamie, I want to bring you in here now because that is we hear it failed singles players not fit enough. Don't work hard enough. You know, these are, these are the slants that come. Now, last week, Rohan Bopanna legend, Bops What a legend he is, by age 43, 23 days older than me, you know, I retired 18 years ago, you know, like, it blows my mind, you know, was the oldest, the oldest man to ever win a ATP 1000 event with his partner, Matt Ebden. Now, for those that are throwing shade at doubles, does that not almost help their argument of you? There's 43 year olds that are winning these events?

36:27

Well, I guess it goes both ways, isn't it? I mean, you can see what how on earth's a 43 year old winning, you know, one of the biggest titles on the on the ATP Tour. But then of course, you can say well, yeah, he shouldn't be beating these these top singles guys, but you know, it's a different game different different skill set. I mean, you know, Jack and John have both had loads of success and in doubles, and, you know, Jack has won grand slams, and Tour finals and, and masters and stuff and, you know, as a amazing sort of feel for a doubles game, like has really good like continental grip skills, which a lot of singles guys don't have. And that allows him to be very successful on on the doubles court. And yeah, I mean, for me, I like I honestly, I mean, no, maybe no better than me, like, I mean, I've been playing a long time, like I don't, I don't feel like there's loads of hostility in the locker room, or trash talking about the doubles game or, or doubles players from the, from the single side, like I don't, I don't feel that like occasionally, you know, comments come up or whatever, but I don't get the feeling that, you know, it's sort of, it's like, there's loads of animosity amongst the, the player group, I don't feel that at all, at least, it I haven't experienced it. And like I said, I've been playing been playing a long time. But for me, that's, you know, once you get on the court, it doesn't matter. If you play singles, you play doubles, or what your age, like, you just have to be good enough. And if you're not good enough, you'll you'll get beat and you know, the level level is higher, like doubles game, you know, it's changed over the years because lots of guys now serve and stay back. And that's obviously helped a lot, the singles guys to be successful. And I think they've also because they've had the opportunity to play more and more they start to understand how their skill set can be used to be successful on on the doubles court. And you know, that that also makes it exciting, right, it's another it's another challenge you get some you know, fun rallies fun matches and stuff. For me, it's just the way it's set up just now doesn't doesn't work for for doubles, like you're not putting the best sort of product out there. You know, whether that's in terms of like scheduling of matches, or the length of the doubles tournament, even within the tournament itself, you know, or even like, you know, we have the ability to play even quicker than what we do. And especially at a time where you know, tennis is crying out for some like quicker matches, or a quicker product at certain you know, I'm not seeing every week or anything like that, you know, doubles can do that without having to change the scoring system and if you're going to do that in singles, you'd have to change the scoring system to to cut out you know, relevant time but you know, even for us like getting rid of change-overs and stuff would be would be a good thing for the for the doubles game I think because it just be a much better flow to the matches be more action in a sort of condensed period of time which you know, surely is more fun for for fans that are in the stadium or you know, watching at home for for TV and stuff if they know they've got a better idea of how long the matches are going to are going to take maybe there's more incentive to kind of show those matches are for tournaments to put the doubles matches on centre court before or after, you know, some of the bigger singles matches if they know, right, okay, this is it's taking an hour maximum for, for example, but right now it could be an hour to over two hours potentially. Which you know, for me is not, it's not good for the product that we're trying to try to put out there. I don't think there's stuff like that, that bugs me, because these are small changes that could make quite a big impact potentially, on the game without actually costing people time or money or effort, you know, whether that translates into millions of people watching Yeah, I don't know. But at least it would give us a better product to put out there for all the different stakeholders that there are in the game,

Daniel Kiernan  40:53

ya know, and Wimbledon have done that haven't they're there, they've gone from the five sets to three sets for the first time this year. But even even a three set open scoring system, match can take I mean, some of the doubles in the Aussie Open, took two and a half hours. So how long Cal visit until the Grand Slams go to match type final set tiebreak and sudden death deuce score.

41:14

I think we're probably a while off, they go for both, it wouldn't surprise me if they go for one of them. At some stage in the next few years. I quite like it to be honest that the slams don't do it. I think it makes the slams a little bit different from the other tournaments that they that they do. They do that. I don't know why tennis tournaments in general all have to stick by the same scoring system for everything. No other sport would do that you look at snooker you look at darts and things like that they have different different scoring systems at different tournaments. I don't really see why we have to stick with the same one for every tournament, the rules of the game stay the same, the court's the same size and that's the same size. But I don't get why you know, certain tournaments differentiate between them, you could differentiate between the two 5500s and 1000s. In different ways like that. And that's I think, one way you could do but that's not necessarily specific to doubles. But yeah, I think we can go to certain depth and a full third before long and slumps.

Daniel Kiernan  42:13

My last question, guys, and want to throw this to you first know that the ATP, we mentioned the ATP council, you know, they they met last night that they're undergoing a big doubles review, you know, 2023, you know, that's, you know, it'd be interesting to see what comes out of that over the next few months. You know, I, I heard that it was a good three, four hour discussion last night, and not just on doubles. But it was very interesting, you know, lots of lots of good points that were made. Where do you see the landscape of doubles, ATP WTA. Level in five years time?

42:55

Yeah, I mean, I think I think tennis is going to go in this direction, I think with the rise of ptpa. And then kind of enforcing this evolution that's been long overdue, to some extent. I think tennis is going to go I think Calvin was saying this a bit was, you know, to just new and improved, you know, whether that shorter scoring systems more exciting, more festival field, whatever it may be. Tennis has to market to that because you know, superstars come and go, you know, will we see superstars, even though we have, you know, Swiatek, and Alcaraz, you know, are they at the same level as Federer. And Serena, I think that's still up for discussion. So if we're gonna lose superstars like that, and we're gonna go to a place of less, to some extent where they're not transcending the sport quite the same, you know, then the product itself has to evolve. And I think that's where tennis goes. That's where doubles goes, quicker, more exciting, different scoring systems. I think that, you know, the Challenger tour is an easy place to start, things like that. I think we're gonna see experimenting on that front. I don't know if doubles is in that mix as well for experimentation. But I've heard these rumors where they could possibly experiment, kind of that level of see how something new could look like what it could look like. And we'll see. I mean, I think in five years from now, it will be much shorter. You know, I don't know what that means. I know, the NexGen. They did the three and a five to four, you know, things like that. I mean, I think we could see even shorter. So I'm not sure you know, the attention spans of young kids getting into the sport is smaller and smaller. So we'll see what they have.

Daniel Kiernan  44:34

I think it was interesting that when LIV golf came along, that all of a sudden the PGA started to innovate, you know, and all of a sudden, there was pots of gold that were found. And there was there was certain changes that let's be honest, if they weren't challenged by and they were still running a monopoly probably. That was that same system. Same way of working would would continue, you know, so ptpa is a different subject, of course, however, that challenge of the status quo is the world that we're now living in, you know, and certainly in tennis as well, for you, Jamie, you know, hopefully, you're still going in five years, mate. But, you know, where where do you see doubles? Going over that over the next four or five years?

45:24

Honestly, no, I have no idea. Honestly, no idea. Because for me, yeah, I don't know, what the, the tour kind of I don't know what their their goals are with it. And, yeah, I don't know, if they would be willing to make the effort, I would say minimal effort, really, to give the product the best chance to succeed. So without that, it's difficult to Yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult to know, but what I will say is, you know, I started playing the tour in 2007. And it's 2023. Now, and, you know, tennis has grown exponentially in that time. The events that are on the tour now, the grand slams, like, it's crazy, how good all these events are, and how well looked after the players are and the finances that they're, they're incurring. And also from, I mean, purely from a doubles point of view, you know, we're streaming and stuff now you can follow so much more of the doubles game, and it's so noticeable at the tournament's because the fans that are there, they know a lot more of the players because they can watch them, you know, on Tennis TV, or, or whatever through the year, and they can they can follow their, their favorites. And I know that that makes a big, a big difference in, you know, the marketing and the promotion of the of the sport. But, you know, are there people from the tour, for example, walking around the grounds and kind of getting that feel from the fans that are buying tickets and turning up to? To watch? I don't? I don't know, I honestly don't know.

Daniel Kiernan  47:07

And that goes back to your original point. No, or if, if the isn't the intention to do it, then then we have problems, don't we? And Cal, to bring you in a ultimately, you know, I said before we began off air, this was not about Reilly Opelka. I thank someone like Reilly giving those opinions. Actually, I think it's good, I think because I think often when these big statements are made it actually it opens up conversation, you know, and I think there's, there's not we all need a bit of that in this in this world as well. You know, you're working right now, you know, with guys that have made the way through the Challenger tour on the doubles side. You know, you've still got another player in there but starting to make the we're now into ATP events, grand slams, where would you like to see it? Or where do you think the sport is going and specifically doubles? is going in the next five years?

48:05

Well I hope they don't get rid of it like Reilly Opelka said or 75% of this podcast would be out of work because that is one way. But yeah, I it's tough to tell it'll still be around. They won't get rid of it. I mean, I do worry that they'll try. And I do worry what the ptpa will do with it if they get any sort of power. Because I've got concerns about the motives of that group of people anyway, because I think it's basically been set up to make sure that more money goes into the back end of singles, major tournaments. And that's not where I think the money of in tennis needs to be directed at the winners of Grand Slams don't need to be getting more than $2 million. But there are other areas of tennis that does need money, or the the tennis players that could do with more money. That is a concern for me. I think it'll still be around I think we'll see more playing around with the scoring system. I do think they need to deal with the situation of singles players going into doubles tournaments. They know they want more of it, but it's just messing the tournaments up last week, I could have told you exactly which pairs weren't going to complete the tournament, about a day before each of them pulled out. Yeah. It was no surprise on any of that. I mean, there was Stan Wawrinka was still in the tournament. And I knew when he lost the second set against Holger Rune that there's no way he was playing his next tennis match whether he won or lost, and then need to find a way of dealing with that. I don't know how they'll deal with that.

Daniel Kiernan  49:36

You know how they deal with that in the WTA. So WTA singles players, I mean, actually, WTA is a lot higher percentage of singles players play. However, if you if you play and pull out your they're not able to enter the next X amount of tournaments.

Calvin Betten  49:53

Yeah, that's how it should be. It's 100% how it shouldn't be. I mean, there are other ways they can do with it. I don't know whether you know, maybe you have Have two less direct entries. And you give two wildcards. And you can give those two singles players if you want. But they shouldn't be allowed to it, everyone knows that basically, when they enter times, they always enter Indian Wells, it's a thing that they do and all they're really wanting to wanting an extra match on the courts. And I don't know why they just don't stick an exhibition on for whoever wants to play earlier on in the week, because if they're still, if they're still in the singles, after the second round, they're not going to want to play doubles. And if they're out of the singles after the second round, they're not going to want to play doubles, because they want to get to Miami. And that's, that's all that keeps happening. And it's happening regularly at the tournaments and, you know, in need that needs dealing with

Daniel Kiernan  50:41

No doubt. My my flip side of that, though, Cal, as a tennis fan, I thought the doubles draw was really exciting. In Indian Wells.

50:51

It was, it was but I mean, it was a bit like, half the but I think I do think half the problem with last week was that all the singles players who were playing together all drew each other in the first round. So you were gonna have like, there was definitely going to be, I think four of them in the second round anyway. And there may have just got minced by the doubles players, I think, but yet, look, it's great. Who doesn't want to see Francis Tiafoe and Stan Wawrinka playing doubles, but you're only going to see him playing doubles together if you watch him in the first round? Because they're not going to play after that. So why not just stick an exhibition on? If they want court time, say to him, right, we'll stick you you two against Rublev and Khachanov.

Daniel Kiernan  51:32

Donald Duck and Taylor Swift. Yeah,

51:35

Do that. The tie break 10s have a tie break 10s For doubles. On the first night.

Daniel Kiernan  51:42

The tie break 10s event was a massive, mixed doubles in Indian Wells. And it was fully sold out. Everyone I spoke to said it was the event of the week actually, the tie-break 10s doubles event, they were all sitting in Nobu eating there, you know, do what they do. And for them that was that was the most entertainment that they had all week, you know, as fans. So there's something to be said for that as well.

52:07

They're not playing that they're not playing that tennis tournament to win the doubles. None of them have got any interest in winning the doubles, Francis Tiafoe is not not there, he doesn't want to be hanging around on Saturday, playing doubles, either he wants to be down in Miami if he's out of the tournament, or he wants to be playing focusing on his singles semifinal that he's gonna have to play in an hour's time. It's just not feasible, that, that they're going to do that. And everybody knows it's not, I'm not saying it shouldn't be the case. But everybody knows it is going to be the case. So they've got to find a way of, of dealing with that.

Daniel Kiernan  52:39

Boys. It's it's always great to get your opinions. I think it's you know, there's many, many topics we could have tackled, I think I think ultimately, in a sport that we love in an industry that we love, and we've all made a living for for so many years in various in various forms. Ultimately, we want to encourage more people to make a living in our industry, right, you know, and that's, that's the point that I like to leave with, you know, whether that's singles, doubles, triples, coaching, stringing rackets, you know, whatever that may be, you know, that let's get let's keep getting this sport on the map. Let's keep marketing it the right way, making more stars, getting more money, and ultimately growing the ecosystem. So you guys coming together and discussing this, you know, on people sitting at home, or sitting in the car listening to this helps towards that sort of big, big thank you for your time, guys. And, Jamie, I'll see you tomorrow, boys. I hope I'll see you down the line somewhere later on this year.

Jamie Murray  53:42

Thanks, guys. Thanks for having us. Kierno.

Daniel Kiernan  53:45

Thanks, guys, see you later. Well, I think it's a it's a highly emotive topic. And I thank the boys for coming on. And discussing that with such openness. And, you know, I my aim, of, of this episode was was to make sure that, you know, there's lots of lots of fair points being made, lots of honest, transparent points being made. And we've actually thrown it out as well, to our social media to hear what you think. And thank you for so many of you that got back in touch and I'm just going to read a couple of them out. And to start with, we've got Kay Gilbert, who said, what people watch is partly a function of what is promoted not just the quality of the talent and care that's exactly the point we were making there. You know, what a bit of a laugh about the Donald Duck Taylor Swift, but exactly that they're not looking necessarily at the quality. They're looking at what's been promoted who we know. And I think that's a really important point. So thank you for that. We've got here DK tennis coaching and that's not me. And that says agree singles is the Ultimate Match performance for athletes and most fun to watch for fans, you know, and I think it's great to get both sides, you know, different people will have different opinions. And isn't that what we absolutely love about this we've got here, I will not say the name, but I know that it's, it's an ATP tour doubles coach that just said he's lost his head. And I think some people are thinking that as well. But I like it. Like I said to Calvin at the end there. I like that we've got characters like Reilly Opelka, who say what they think, you know, Dan Evans is another one. And we don't all have to agree all the time. But it's thought provoking and it gets conversation going. We then got Charlie Barry, who says tennis isn't just about the pros, you know, doubles allows people of all ages to still compete and enjoy. And pro tour doubles is exciting in some of the best matches he's ever seen, are doubles, and I think it does have polarizing thoughts. I think we all agree that the form of the game that is singles is beautiful. The form of the game that is doubles is also beautiful, and why can't we have both? You know, and that's, that's certainly certainly my, my take on it. I, I think the points were made quite clearly there throughout the episode, you know, and it would have been nice, I invited Reilly Opelka to come on. I also Dan Evans was gonna come on. And I know Dan loves doubles. But he has had some quite strong things to say. And I think it's important that we do take that on board as well, you know, that there is an element that some people will will think that singles is the is the more purist form of the game. But I like what Calvin said, I like that he what he said about cricket, and they're filling the stadiums, by having different forms, you know, on some people will naturally have the skills to be able to play better 2020 Cricket and some test match cricket and some people will have the skills to be able to play a better doubles, to different skill sets. And some people will have it for the singles as well. And ultimately, as a sport, let's keep getting all of these beautiful tennis matches out there. Let's get these characters let's build stars, and build role models for the future so we can continue getting more and more people into our sport, when there is so much other competition right now. And I urge you as you're listening to this to go buy a ticket when when's the next ATP WTA challenger ITF event wherever it is, that's close to you, you know go and support it. Get yourself out there. And I'd love to hear also from all of you, you know get in touch with us on CTC.podcast@sototennis.com and also on all of our social media channels, which is CTC podcast, or SotoTennis, and let us know you know Who who are you buying a ticket for? You know why? Why are you going to Wimbledon why you going to the US Open? You know is it for a specific player? Is it for singles is a doubles? Is it for men's tennis? Is it for women's tennis? Is it the whole package? You know, are we are we getting into this infighting like Noah says that we just don't need to be getting into and just celebrate the quality, the success and the characters that we have in our sport, the sport that we all love. And and that's how it is you know, we don't always have to overanalyze it. That being said, I will be interested to see what comes of the review over the next 12 months on the ATP for four doubles. And as soon as that comes out, we'll be able to share that information as well on the on the podcast, and maybe we'll get some people back to discuss it as well. And maybe at that point, Reilly will also be ready to come on, because we want to hear his thoughts as well. You know, we it's important that we get all different aspects of the argument. But guys, I hope you are well. Thank you for listening. As as always, as I said at the start of the show, a big, big plea to vote control the controllables we're excited we're humbled to be and shortlisted for the Sports Podcast of the Year Awards. Please take your time to do that. It helps us a lot. You know there's lots of people in this industry now that are talking about this podcast but let's keep getting it far and wide. And I hope you enjoy the Miami ATP WTA 1000 event this next couple of weeks is lots of exciting matches. The courts are a little bit quicker they're a little bit bouncier. And the draw once again as put some fantastic matches out there. The time difference for anybody in Europe is maybe a little bit easier then than it was in Indian Wells the last couple of weeks. So enjoy that wherever you are. I hope my boys and I didn't hurry and make a great run in the doubles. But wishing everyone else the best of luck over the next couple of weeks. And until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables