Dave O´Hare - Grand Slam Winning Doubles Coach

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 198, of Control the Controllables. And today we have a Grand Slam winning doubles coach. And when you get a coach of this level on, they want to share their tips with you. And that's exactly what David O'Hare will be doing with you today.

Dave O'Hare  00:30

Take control of your own developments. You know, I think sometimes you're internally motivated, you know, it's you, that's the driving force behind your development. I think that's exponentially more powerful than relying on a coach to externally motivate you to achieve whatever it is. But I think it really comes from within it much more powerful.

Daniel Kiernan  00:54

And there's plenty more that Dave will be sharing throughout the episode. And a little bit about Dave Dave was quite late to tennis. He wasn't an overachiever in his junior years. But then he went on to Memphis university in America where he actually was a roommate of Jo Salisbury, who he now coaches, and he got to the dizzy heights of number three in the nation NCAA, and then went on to play on the ATP Tour, where he reached a career high of 117 on the doubles tour, before injuries, stopped his career a little bit early. He's an Irish Davis Cup player, he still plays for Ireland. And he now is the coach to Joe Salisbury and Rajiv Ram, and has been with them for the last two and a half years, winning the US Open with them in 2022. And he has a wealth of experience already at the mere age of 33. And here's Dave to tell his story. So devil hair big welcome to control the controllables How you doing?

Dave O'Hare  02:03

Great. Thank you very much for having me on down.

Daniel Kiernan  02:06

Dave, it's been a while coming. We've been we've been promising this for a while. It's great to have you and there's so many topics that I think we can jump into today. We've just spoken for about an hour and a half before we even started only. If only we had a camera or a recording on that. It would have been an extra special podcast but lots to jump into. But to set the context a lad from Ireland, whether we like it or not, it hasn't been a hotbed of tennis over the last 50 or 100 years. So how was a boy from Ireland get into get into tennis instead of Gaelic football or rugby.

Dave O'Hare  02:44

Well, yeah, I played playedGaelic football and, and hurling at school. But there's something about just the responsibility of the results kind of being in my hands that I really enjoyed. You know, you can kind of play a blinder as a goalkeeper, but if your boys couldn't, the striker wasn't on form, he couldn't score it was kind of like a sign not fun. So I kind of grew up in a in somewhat a tennis family, I mean, mum would have been a bit of a tennis player growing up, and I'm the youngest of four. So kind of grew up watching all my older siblings get lessons and spent summers down and in the tennis club, and that was kind of that was my youth. No, I think my journey was, you know, everyone's journey is different than that. And I think I'm actually only after I finished my playing career, like quite proud of the obstacles that I overcame, to be an Irish tennis player, and, you know, kind of just stumbled over every every hurdle that was kind of placed in front of me, but really, it was later playing multiple days a week, you know, it was when you kind of read when I was 15, 16 that I kind of started to get a bit more of the bug and had kind of a bit of a anomaly of result making the final Fitzwilliam like our national tournament and that you know, afforded me the, you know, an invite out to National Tennis Centre, I had a great coach, Spanish guy heavy that took a real interest in me. So when I had that have a De Castro and I have that interest from him and Owen Casey was a big part of my my junior career and development so so that was really my first intro, and then I got a bad wrist injuries and then I finished my leaving cert, like the equivalent A Levels got a couple offers for colleges in the States. And that's really what kind of elevated my level just to have good facilities, good weather and great people to practice with on a daily basis and levels access to such competitive matches. So I'd be a big proponent of what the college system I know what in the world to do it and it really suits my personality. I feel like I'm not maybe the most competitive guy, but having responsibility For the team, ultimately is what elevated my performance you know that kind of winning for someone else, or you know, I think DJ and I am a better team player than I am for just for David selfishly competing for me, I always felt it was much harder. And, and, you know, I was fortunate enough to meet Jo there. And that's when we started playing professionally, post college June, it was that same relationship that really kind of kind of spurred me on to, you know, doing the together was the real thrill for me. So yeah, so that's kind of how I've ended up ended up in this position on that now.

Daniel Kiernan  05:40

And I love stories like that, Dave, because I was actually reading an article, I sent it to everyone at the academy yesterday, Nathaniel Lamins. And it was saying that he went to college and didn't even make the lineup. I was very low in the lineup in his first year. And then by the third year, he felt he was starting to contribute. And now he sits at top 30 in the world, making a shedload of money having all these amazing experiences that we dream of. And then I thought, Dominic Koepfer, I thought just couldn't just happen in doubles, you know, is it maybe singles, it's not possible. But then I go about the dominant Capo came on the podcast. And he similar to you said, he only played really a couple of times a week until he was 15, 16. Again, I know he went to Tulane University wasn't really making the lineup was low in the lineup first year. And he's gone on to be a top 30 singles player. Now, I know, we're not saying that it's necessarily the main route to be able to do it. But I think it's important that people that are listening, understand if you do have certain fundamentals in place, when the time comes right for you to add the volume in. So my question to you is what are those fundamentals that you have to have in place, that when the time comes right for you, let's say you went six years, seven years of volume from your last year of juniors through college, and then you went on and you were as high as 117 in the world, ATP doubles, represented your country many times Davis Cup, so a successful playing career, what fundamentals have to be in place for that to be able to happen,

Dave O'Hare  07:18

I guess it's different for everyone, but just passion for the sport, you know, I really felt like I was very privileged to be in the position that I was to have been afforded these opportunities that kind of just, you know, not even that I actively sought them out, but they just kind of that it somehow it came my way, you know, even you know, for me, my senior year in college, I got called up for the Davis Cup team. You know, last minute Carlo because Sam Berry was was injured. So, you know, no real expectation on me. I've kind of I was doing quite well with Joe, you know, collegiately we were right up top four or five, and went out played against Max Mooney and Alexander burry with James close ski. You know, Max, obviously, a legend in the game 17 World singles world number one, Olympic medals. The Works played in Minsk and valorise on his home soil, have matchpoint the fourth set I break, I missed a 400 turn on and if I could, if there's one point in my match that I could wish I will be that one because that would have been maybe one of the biggest upsets, or in like, fires Davis Cup history to have won a match of that caliber.

Daniel Kiernan  08:32

Did you commit to the forehand?

Dave O'Hare  08:34

I did. Yeah. And it was so funny. I mean, there's so many amazing things that that happen that you know, where you just kind of think it's fate it's meant to be okay, this Brandis journey, I would have been a bit of a stickler for having my own rackets and all that kind of stuff. My rackets didn't calm, you know, I miss connections. And then I had to reroute through Vienna and then Turin, you know, like all sorts of mess and you're kind of thinking, Oh, this is a shambles. But I remember just thinking like, all the way along in the flight, like I was so excited about the experience that was there just was honestly you stepped away from visualization, but I could just see myself playing well, like I could just see myself like really enjoying the experience and what it would what it would mean to represent your country and so much stuff had kind of gone into place that you know, might have thrown me otherwise but like there was such a bigger picture and head or stood amazing experience at hand. It didn't even really matter like I was fine with all that other stuff going wrong. I was just like, waiting for the game to get ahead, you know so. So that was that was one fantastic experience. We ended up losing in fifth set. Great match, but I just one of those matches where I'll bet that you lost it was just you know, you had mum and dad and on the sidelines in Minsk, you know, I was playing well, you know, oh, beat that, that we ended up losing. It was still just, yeah, the dream debut in many ways, you know, good competitors, no real expectations. You know, you're even remember some of the press conferences, they're like, Oh, do you think like it'll, it'll extend into the Sunday, we'll probably like, just your singles no chance against Max in the doubles. So it just was pretty special. And then, lucky enough, two weeks later, less than that. at Memphis, where I went to college, they have an ATV tournament, and Jo and I were lucky enough to get a wildcard and played against the Bryan Brothers, you know, last two sudden death deuces, and that was foreign for, and you're kind of thinking, gosh, if I was taken to the court against that, number one world and singles, I'd get cuffed. But here we are against the Bryans and like somewhat holding our own now. Now, the in car to the doubles world, it kind of intimately afford for is the very late at the office, I was quite naive at the time thinking, Oh, God, they're 3.2 Hey, well, you know, we almost took him so. But again, just that, that, that was a great experience, we've had a lot of support playing on the stadium court, you know, those kinds of thrills were really expected to find myself. Because, yeah, that was what drove me. And you had that. But that was that was what catapulted me into, into playing professional tennis. because prior to that, I was quite content of the lifestyle that I had, trying to stay in the States and find work out there. And, yeah, it just happened. somewhat normal life. Yeah, got totally overthrown by those two experiences, and just kind of led me on this world with adventure. That is the ATP tour, I suppose.

Daniel Kiernan  11:49

And there's such good stories there. And I can't help thinking about the mindset, like almost hearing the little boy in you that's talking about that excitement of those events, and maybe because of your journey, and I've mentioned Lamins, I mentioned Koepfer there's plenty stories out there like yours, where tennis didn't take over your life at such a young age, to the point where you left school, and, you know, we see it now, it's a crazy world where everyone's leaving school at 10, 11 12. But what it what it's given you there is there's this freshness of mind in lots of ways, like your ability to tolerate those situations, your ability to accept situations, your ability to have low expectations, you know, which I think are all quite powerful mindsets. The flip side of that, I'd love to get your thoughts on this is, when you are a player who comes to the game a bit later on the international scene, you don't necessarily have an instant sense of belonging, that that you're that you're and that's one of my big plusses of the ITF Junior tour is when players play and they play Junior Grand Slams, when they then go into the pro tour, they've kind of been there, their their peers already been playing to a high level. It's like saying hello in the locker room in the corridor, rather than being you kid on the block that takes a bit of time. Is that something that you have had have had to deal with as a as a player? And then second part of that question, is that something that's also took you some time as a coach as well? Because I think it is the sort of thing that can happen on on both sides. Imposter syndrome, I guess.

Dave O'Hare  13:46

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the reality is that no one had achieved what I achieved in Irish tennis or I didn't have I mean, close to us, it was a good example. I'm not quite sure what it's called or high bars, but he was 140s Maybe so yeah, I kind of had a an eight and him that that knew what it was about. But ultimately, it was kind of me trying to figure out my own schedule and trying to fail and definitely a sense of imposter syndrome. No one No one hadn't done that before me. You know, definitely didn't feel feel like I belong to feel like I deserve the right to take to the court to some of these some of these players you know, very much in my shell very much insecure in in my level in my in my person at times. So I do think it was only much later in my career after I had one or two good results that I like began to feel like a good player on the court but that's funny you know, like even coaching teams now. Like even the wealth of experience that Jo and Rajeev happy to have sometimes companies can Evan flow for him too. And I think, if my claim itself was able to witness or be part of some of the conversations or, or some of the, you know, just happenings that that has gone within the team, I think I should be like, Oh my god, I'm totally normal. And it's totally normal to feel such a way, here are two guys that won major tournaments, and they still feel a little bit insecure at times, or fragile that they're being on the court, or if the level is not good enough, they can go within their shell. And that was certainly how I felt as a player. So it definitely is an interesting question. And yeah, I don't know what, why that frame of mind why they can get hijacked, and they've got countless achievements and accolades to bolster their self belief and their confidence that we can always tap into it,

Daniel Kiernan  15:57

it will be amazing to have junior tennis players to witness it. Yeah, I'm relatively new to this ATP doubles, you know, top at top of the game, and I was blown away with it, you know, a little bit like, I really shocked just how much and we'll get into a couple of those things in a bit. But just yeah, the relationships, how people manage their relationships, how, how they have doubts, insecurities, but then when you actually stop, and you will cause the human beings right. You know, like, every some reason, we put people on a pedestal. And we think that these people we see on TV don't experience the same things that other people do. You know, that's which is crazy, you know, when you when you logically think about it. So the normalization of that is, is a massive, massive thing, I think, to help people with emotional awareness with their ability to tolerate emotions and their ability to, to be comfortable in their own skin. And it takes sometimes you've gone through that journey to be able to get to those points.

Dave O'Hare  17:09

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, I think there's one thing I wish I had a great deal more of those on the tour is like a little bit of compassion for myself, like a little bit of just like, yeah, you're doing, you're doing good, like, you don't need to be so quick to maybe judge and compare. And this guy is doing this and, you know, like 100 and sitting at 117. And if you'd asked me I do, I'm like, yeah, there's still 100 plus people ahead of me like never content and actually like, kind of appreciating, they're far I've come and not even sure that was like mostly for myself, it was like, like a driving force and kind of want to be one of the first Irish players inside the top 100 And maybe make some slams. And that'd be great, if that was me, that maybe might inspire a few other kids to pick up the racket and whatever else but, but I maybe got caught up in that more than I should have, I think if I was a little bit more grounded, and actually like, actually hanging on my grown up on astro courts playing Tuesday, Thursday evenings, half, six to eight. That's not too bad. You know, like, track your next balls and rain, like, actually, you know, I think you could be pretty, pretty pleased with how far you've come. But there was never really a sense of that as a player. And I think now, you know, as I talked before we started recording, still fortunate enough to play Davis Cup. And hopefully, I'll be playing in El Salvador after the team is yet to be announced. But fingers crossed, I'll travel because it's great for my coaching. It's great to, to kind of reacquaint myself with the nerves I think on the sidelines, you can distance yourself and you can expect so much from your players, because you've seen them maintain such a high standard, that it's kind of like oh, like he was in position that you should have made that shot, you know, like, well, it's like actually, Christ if the viewer if they're having would you have looked at the same situation, you probably wouldn't be able to put your own foot to your left, you know, like, I guess but we're obviously quite fortunate to be coaching British guys so we know that the level of detail and analytics that go into it. So we have great access to all this kind of stuff and it's easy to kind of lose yourself in the numbers and not kind of go into like the human traits or the emotional traits that that we've all felt like the big believer that it's all the same at every level. You know, that same nerves that I'm gonna feel in a couple of weeks in my opening service game and Davis Cup is you know, the next big milestone that it is for Joe he's opening service game at the US Open, it's just it's a threshold Once each player has overcome soon forget about it and it's like it's the next thing the next on what's going to be My next tough service game are we next situation where I'm gonna feel a little bit, you know, jittery or whatever. But for me post playing career sense of compassion that I've developed myself for myself, and I needed to because the pro player like there can be, I wouldn't say it was ever wanting to struggle with anxiety or performance pressure or anything like that, but being asked to go in is knowing that you're not practicing, and you've got the Davis Cup match to play, and you're like Jesus, like, you're gonna have to try and relinquish the image I have of myself or my former self, and just get on with this and just crack on. And I found that to be very powerful. And I think I may have even told the story in another context. And you know, there's a really inspirational guy and back in Dublin, he's a heart surgeon, cardiac surgeon, and he does all MRIs as well, but he's just, I think he himself does use MRI she in the world in Blackrock clinic and it's 25 mi reports, reports to rate seven days a week, absolutely top in the business and we send a few podcasts and books back and forth here in the mornings when I'm back in Dublin needles starting his day you know 615 715 I'll get out and have a strike and then shoot off to work and on this one particular day, whenever I tend to come out with is this formula for success. Like what all these self help books have because event plus reaction equals outcome e plus r equals O and is really prevalent in my career and maybe most proud of was in 2020 I think it was 2021 We were playing Davis Cup and it was a playoff match against Georgia Simon like one the first set second set we get a break because I think we're sitting down with change events three to undertake to serve obviously I've got the the background and doubles I know what to do I know the high percentage plays and all that carry on So sure enough, go out miss my first serve. I missed the first volley low 15 For serve here. I make it miss my first serve side and misses a volley or whatever. There I am staring down the barrel of 30 as a player I'd have been fuming like absolutely irate with myself to have involved Why did this pressure or you know doing exactly what I said I didn't want to do Sure enough to go and miss my first or began but actually for the first time I was like objective in that she wanted happens. Like she felt good. Like I remember as clear as day. Pop the service felt good. Although I missed it last time. Okay, so the event is bad, but my reaction is actually good. That That one felt good. To that moment. How do I feel stepping up to hit my second sir? So good. Okay, so a good second sir. 1530 is a good first serve 30 All good for Sir game. Happy Days, but as a player for the mystery for serves in row on my service game console, consolidate the break. We've been absolutely livid with myself. So for me that little journey there of my reaction and my response, the loss of compassion, really enabled performance to kick on in that particular instance isn't it's not always it's not always that way. You know, and there's another the same day that Rory shared that I got on court with them. When Ireland's Davis Cup players now by Connor gammon, he's actually in college events. And I kind of have an element of that like Big Brother ish, you know, where you can't quite beat me albeit that he showed he kind of gets his own way or it thinks too much. So we're playing just a city game out of the hand and best to five sets versus seven. And if two sets of any showed when the third but I stay alive. So you give me some couple cheat points. Then I think I kind of roll them in the fourth he's still a bit caught up and that the fact that he's not one So sure enough for like two all in the fifth set out of band. And he plays like to dream point. Perfect Point couldn't couldn't construct it better. And his reaction, albeit that he says like come on, or whatever. It's so rooted in like frustration that it's actually gone to events that are that he hasn't closed the match that it actually had it was next few points. So we let it it's like come on. That's really you know, like we've all heard that there's like anger or this for frustration, and many plays just couple ship points and I'm in the I'm in the set, you know. And I really found that to be powerful and really fun. That's something that I would love to try. And yeah, I think that these boys could continue within sitting in their own game. But I think that's where it's the paradox of besides the super high standards that they set for themselves is actually what's, you know, landed them in the position that they're at as Grand Slam champs as rule number ones. But I think the little little dose of compassion might be exactly what's needed to sustain it and to kick out and

Daniel Kiernan  25:40

very good Dave, and I think, just as you're talking there, for me, perspective just comes in because it's like, we're talking about, there's different layers, right of there's us as a junior tennis player versus a professional tennis player. But there's, there's us as a person and life after tennis, and where, and where tennis fits into the context of being just a human being and, and living, living life because winning grand slams, does that make us successful? Or happy? It's what's our success measure, you know, doesn't necessarily, you know, and it's like, and it's just in something as high pressured as tennis, but it would be the same with many sports, many, many industries, it's very easy to just get caught up into that bubble, you know, and when we can contextualize where tennis fits into our life, and we can understand that it yes, it's its role, and I talked about this all the time, then the Nadal quote, you know, play, play tennis, like it's the most important thing in the world. But no, it's not. You know, and it's that kind of thing of like, chucking yourself at something, but just having that, you know, like, what you're saying about the compassion, having that little perspective, that little bit of compassion that says, well, actually, I've tried my absolute best I've given absolutely everything. But it's still really important that I take care of me, I take care of those other things. And I just think having success measures outside of, of tennis is is something that I certainly wished I'd done when I played, you know, and even we had Pat Cash on here recently, and Pat talked about, you know, and he ended up having some quite challenging mental health battles, because he actually said one of the worst things that happened to him. He didn't explicitly say that, but he implied that one of the worst things that happened to in some ways was winning Wimbledon. Because he, well, he just never lived back up to that. And he, and because that was, that was how success was measured in his world, the almost to be successful again. He had to do that again. So then wet, so then when he didn't, so then when he didn't reach that, it then brought so many negative emotions and challenges, that he then felt like he almost had this mountain that he couldn't ever get up, you know, that's correct. Can you paraphrase and what it what he said, and just to bring that a little bit closer to home for you, you know, you're coaching the three time Grand Slam champions, you know, last year, the boys won, US Open, they had an incredible year, they, they, they won the end of year, two a finals, on top of the world's world's best team. And they didn't finish world number one, but they've kind of proven that they were the best team really over the last over the last few months, then this year has been more of a challenge. You know, do you, I guess, been involved in that. And we see it a lot in doubles that these teams do great, do great, but they seem to have short memories. Because you know, things start to go a little bit badly then things can unravel a little bit. How have you been able to deal with that as a coach? What have some of the challenges been for you guys?

Dave O'Hare  29:12

Yeah, I think it's, it's Yeah, trying to, at times it's trying to zoom zoom back out, you know, I think, you know, to comment on your perspective, I think I think we can get caught up in these performances and I think keeping a perspective and just, you know, kind of lose the sense of being fit and happy and healthy like it's it's it's a real luxury. The guy should be grateful but there's this owns this pressure that they put on themselves to maybe supersede and to go further and to challenge more and and doing all those things. So I think this year has definitely been a challenging year for the partnership and and for everyone involved. You know, I think it's obviously a lot of fun contending weekend we go for a bit To get NCAA tournaments, and this year, it's been, it's been Yeah, we haven't quite done that we've had a couple tight match matches and losses and got to a few positions of winning matches and not quite got over the line. And maybe the same could be said for last year too. And then, you know, maybe start to doubt yourself in these moments. And the result of that, you know, I think when you're at your best or when your confidence and I think they've still got the self belief, but it's like the confidence is maybe ebbed and flowed a little bit further. And that when that one of things could be going well, and is at one error, or one bad shot or one bad shot selection, and they kind of can kind of go within your shell and anticipate on what's going to happen again, you know, like, not that they've said that, but that's my interpretation of it. And I've certainly been there as a player or kind of, you kind of sense the energy change within you, and you almost kind of like, create that own narrative for yourself, because you're like, oh, no, here we go. Again, many times, if you said that, the tennis court, like you get a bad play bad calls, or you play the victim, and then it just, if you're, if you're playing the victim, then your mind can, it is so quick to correlate any events that could actually showcase that is the truth, you know. And so I think it has been, it has been a challenge that year, I'm just trying to trying to keep the guys positive trying to, you know, I think we've struggled with with injuries and maybe haven't been able to put the time on for him as much as we would like. And, you know, I think there's only one way out matches like this. And it's going to working hard and haven't quite been able to do that for both, you know, both instances for both the guys who've been a little bit restricted in support. And I think in the crunch moments, if you kind of know that yourself, and maybe that's why you're not executing, but, you know, it's it's such fine margins and subtleties that that occur. Right, on course, is just Yeah, I mean, I think my love for the sport is just going to grow in exponentially since I have gotten into this coaching role. And just to be so closely linked to, to the nuance and the day to day and what could make a difference and what doesn't make a difference. And just, yeah, it's it's such fine margins out there, towards when you know, I think as a player, I always, you know, reflected back on. Good, let's say, you know, we're playing challenges, so we finally had access, and you could watch back to matches, and you kind of be thinking, but yeah, good energy out there. Today. I did well, and then you watch it back. And she's like that, like, I'd advise anyone to like watch themselves as much as they can. Because they think it's, it's, you're so distorted, in your view of yourself. Go down massively, massively. Like, I remember thinking, oh, yeah, I did this when I did that. Well, and then you'd watch it back. Like that was

Daniel Kiernan  33:23

My partner. And my partner didn't do that. Well, yes. It's really important thing.

Dave O'Hare  33:30

And then and then vice versa, you know, you'd be coming off some matches thinking like, Oh, my God, I played rubbish, like terrible energy. And then you can watch it back if you'd like, actually, too bad. It's just one or two shots, and, and then our line of work. It's looking at deuces with championship tie breaks, like, I think we're so often like, if we win the 11 line, we win the last point are so weak to like, just forget any of the bad stuff, whatever we go through, that's perfect. For if we lose the last point, and you go to him 11 You're so quick to criticize. So like, the Yeah, the scale there is just is so distorted and stuff there that, I think it's it's really hard to remain objective as a tennis player, because you're so caught up in your emotions and your feelings. You

Daniel Kiernan  34:24

know, I was just just thinking there because what you're saying. It's exactly right. And it's, again, it goes back to the success measure a little bit as well, you know, when good lose bad, you know, and we're, we're quite simplistic like that on the tennis court. And I know, and that's our job as coaches to to get people buying into identities, commitments, helpful attentions, you know, having intentions that you're putting out on the court. I don't know if you follow cricket at all, but the England cricket team have done a great job of this the last couple of years. as they call it bazball. And basically, it's what's what it seems to me is that they have a truly as an organization from top to bottom bought into a way of playing cricket. That the way that they play the cricket is more important than the result. Like truly like, and we talked about process over outcome and we've all been there, but we, we all we all know when we have a few losses that's sometimes hard to hard to, hard to stick to. But they really have now the byproduct I'm not in the nuances of of England cricket, but the byproduct is I think they've won something like 14 out of 17 matches, you know, they've, they've turned it around there. But they've obviously got a lot of people that interested in the sport, it's exciting to watch. It feels like they're just it's like a non negotiable. You know, how, how easy is it to do that as a tennis player, or as a tennis tee? And then specifically you as a coach have like, I asked you the question earlier when you played when you add your match point. Did you commit to the forehand returned? US said yes. So my, my natural instinct as a coach was Well, good. You've done that you've committed to the right thing. That's what you're trying to do. You know, but as players, it's like, well, piss off, I lost. I don't you know, how, how do you kind of manage? How do you manage that as a coach with with top level players?

Dave O'Hare  36:32

I think it's, I think it's really important to be like accurate with your words. You know, I think you as much as I have really enjoyed the influence and Louie CK IA and his expertise. I'm sure he's probably been on the podcast, but I think he's got is such a great way to package the information and, and be accurate with his words. You know, I think one of his best lines is, you know, what's the difference between a mistake and an error? And that means, like, different people interpret those things totally differently. And a lot of them interrupt, you know, they're, you know, they're interchangeable. And in reality, the mistake is, well, I don't know, I'll ask you the question, what is, what do you

Daniel Kiernan  37:18

That's my podcast, it

Dave O'Hare  37:22

would be interesting to see if, yeah, like, what does a mistake mean to you? Or what does an error mean to you? Are they the same? Or is there? Is there a nuance in the vocabulary?

Daniel Kiernan  37:33

Yeah, I think it's how we define it. I guess, I, I guess an error and error for me. Would, would probably, I would think, along the lines of an error. Is it something that in my control that I've done wrong? You know, so it might be I've made a bad decision. Yeah, I've, whereas a mistake would be I'd probably, I'd probably, I'd probably break it down into decision making and execution. And I'm sorry, Louis, because we haven't had this discussion so far. It's wrong from what you've said. But yeah, I would say error. Error for me would be I've made I've made a bad decision. And

Dave O'Hare  38:19

Then mistake is execution. Yeah. I think and I think that's spot on. And I was recently just with a few juniors doing a little thing and like, they don't know because there's actually something to be learned from from that mistake. If you took the right job and you made the right decision. Yeah, that's that's good. Okay, made a mistake with that happens tennis is imperfect. So that's okay. We can move past that. I think you should grow in frustration with the amount of errors that you make amount of new lack of discipline the tissue in your decision making. You know, like I think sometimes I've been in like squad environments. Those shots those like Hail Marys, but like just on their own just slap shots get like, crazed and like people, juniors are going to try and like, almost do that. And it gets it gets almost applauded, that people took the shot on and made it and it comes off on the practice court, like, you know, right to be going through that chart, like, you know, and that's just, there was times when I was in these wild things, and I was like, Christ, like, I wish he didn't make that shot, you know, like, he's no business making that shot. So I think I think being accurate with your words, and I'm always I'm always impressed. You know, I have a long way to go and like, coaching, development and career I'm far from serving these guys as best as I could, you know, I know there's definite ways that I could improve, and I'm always really impressed. And it's quite nice to just almost take a backseat sometimes. When Louise on the course and really conscious of just the money that he shares or when he decides to share, because I think that's the sign of like, actually good coaches, you know, I remember when it was first on the tour, you want to make an impact you want to you want to make, as you know, feel your make sure they know your value or your worth, and you try and justify it. And you want to like say something after everything. That was good. That was about you know, like, just, but I think Louis is an incredible neck to just give the little naugus and navy learn to make the mistake a couple of times, Daniel fire in the novice has just more impact that way. I'm not sure if that actually really answers your question. It'd be gone off on a tangent there. No,

Daniel Kiernan  40:49

But I think whenever a tangent takes us to Louie Cayer, it's a good time to go on. Yeah. You know, because I call Louis the Pep Guardiola of doubles, tennis, you know, and tennis in general, but not to just pigeonhole them into doubles, because he's an amazing tennis coach, you know, but his record with with doubles players really is off the scale. It's off the scale good. Like it's yeah, it's incredible. And I value every phone call every text message every minute that I get with Louis, you know, I really do and I think what you're what you're saying there, and I want to throw this back to you on Louie, but the big thing I get from Louie Cayer, and I think this is a massive thing for tennis coaches out there. One, his awareness of standards is outrageous. Yeah. So, so his his natural eye, because he and I was actually a session with your boys, I think in Miami. You know, I've been with the boys in Indian Wells and Louie hadn't been there. And then they were warming up to play a practice set. And Lloyd was volleying and Louie just said, Lloyd, your tempos off the tempo in the walls off. Come on, man. And I was like, and then he went watch. He actually said watch Jo, you know, so Jo volleys really nice tempo. And then two minutes later, Lloyd was falling at a completely different tempo. And Louis had just got off the plane, you know, and it was this kind of like, just immediate view. And if we think about that, he's basically been around the absolute best in the world at doubles for 20-30 years now, you know, like, that is his, I just goes for it. And the second thing, and I think you're right, exactly what that is, then the accuracy of, of delivery. You know, and it's a part of that, I think, from the player naturally comes from his is standing as as who he is. But he is very accurate and the definitions of words, and, and I had a one which, again, sharing, we were in Rome. And I'd said to the boys, right boys talk, we're going to be positive come on this week, you know that. That's our big word. And first practice set first game, Harri lost, he served against Neal and Wes. And the flu is rocking into his bag. And he was ranting and raving. And I went over and I said, Hey, Harri, I thought we were going to be positive this week. And he said, Rob, I got to be positive when I've just lost my serve or something like that. And and I spoke to Louis after he said, it's, if Did you ask him what his definition of the word positive is? Because the definition of positive for Harri might be very different to you, you know, and, and I had a chat with Harri that night. And, you know, we talked around actually, the word positive to him actually sounds like being happy. He was almost hearing me say, Come on, be happy. Yeah. Well, I wasn't I was. The my definition was more Come on. Now. We've got to stay ready to find solutions here. You know, you've got to have your mind. And just that, that basic understanding of language, and how that comes across with players. And certainly, I think the higher level that we get to every word can be more impactful. And we have to be very, very careful. So those are a couple of I mean, we'd be here all night, if we were talking about the things we've learned off Louie, but those are certainly a couple of things. But what's been the biggest influence that Louise had on you, you know, and the time that you've spent with him, but what are your kind of couple of big, big takeaways?

Dave O'Hare  44:38

I guess I've been lucky to have experienced them both as as a player, you know, when Joe and I first started out and we managed to get some court time with him like to have experienced that and the standard that he sets and the precedent that he sets was was fantastic. And then just you Not only is the best and his eyes the best, and I completely agree with what you said, but his work ethic? Yeah, it's just, you know, you can email him any error the knife and you know, almost ever reply for you minutes later like I think just his dedication to his craft is this something that's mesmerizing, you know how honest he is with analyzing and just connecting the dots, you know, is his vision for a player for the sport or for the situation then, you know, I could be sitting there scratching my head thinking, you know, what's going on here and literally just don't don't don't don't just he's got this. This checklist is a great story. And you obviously know Ed Curry quite well. Yeah. So and was coming towards the end of his very diligent himself and Tom really thorough in their approach to tennis. And Ed has come to the end of his career. I think he's, you know, doing one of these MPC courses for Louie the level five stuff and he was one of the hitters and think Ed was going to be listening to April and Eris to planned on retiring close Wimbledon that June July. And I think Ed has tried every every trick in the book to try and generate maybe a little bit more pace on the forehand side. So there we go. 30 young aspiring coaches for their level five feeds in lawn right now. I don't know if he knows Ed all that well, you know, but these obviously, you've seen them hidden best. They have, like offensive forehands, right, yeah. feeds on volunteer as it hits the forehand. Okay, stop, stop, stop. One read. Or anyone see that? She's nothing to do this. Whatever it was, sure enough, it's hitting his forehand Domestique, as far as last 12 weeks on tour. And it's just like those little nuggets that like attention to detail that he has is get it's mind blowing. You know, it's something to really aspire to. But he is, for me, the most impressive person I've I've ever been on court with and I know he gets labeled A doubles coach, whatever. Do you think he's just seriously impressive coach and, and it's not just tennis related. I think it's packaging information. It's delivering information is awareness of how to do it when it will be most impactful. And it is extremely impressive. extremely impressive.

Daniel Kiernan  47:48

He's absolutely brilliant. I want to move us to you are the coach of Jo Salisbury have have been in various stents. And you know, the same with Rajeev Ram as as as a pair at different times. And I'd love to jump into that kind of individual coach, stroke team coach in a couple of minutes. However, Jo was your college roommate? Yeah, you you played with him University of Memphis, you played on the pro tour with him? How were you able and are able still challenged by to be able to move that from friendship doubles partners, roommate into top class doubles coach, who was traveling 25, 30 weeks a year, helping him win grand slams? How have you been able to I guess, switch hats, which which is always a challenging piece? It is.

Dave O'Hare  48:50

Yeah. So I suppose it is. You know, I think sometimes it's, it's to our detriment that I may be friend first coach second, but I think sometimes it actually really benefits the relationship a lot. I think the manner in which I coach and communicate obviously really facilitates how Jo likes to be spoken to and communicated with that's really beneficial. You know, I think, you know, credit to Joe, I think he's got one of the best locus of control in terms of his own development. I went through a stage of anytime I got on board with any player, you know, Jr. would say, oh, what you want to do today 99% of the time, no one would have a clue. You know, like even other professionals. I'll do a bit of this. With Gil. He knows exactly what he wants to do. Day in day out. And anything that's that's, you know, for people listening that like you just know if there's two or three things that you know, you have to want to do on a certain day with your coach. Just own it, just have control. Take control of your own developments. You know, I think Sometimes, when you're internally motivated, you know, it's you, that's the driving force behind your development, I think that's exponentially more powerful than relying on a coach to externally motivate you to achieve whatever it is. Now, that's just my opinion. You know, again, everyone's journey is different. But I think it really comes from within that much more powerful. So yeah, so that's so that's our, that's our approach, you know, I still default, I still probably have a little bit of that insecurity about me and how I see myself, myself as the coach, which is negatively impacting me, but I'm very much kind of a co operative kind of coach and I kind of I see this, I think this you know, what you think, Okay, I'm feeling the same thing. And that's very much how the session will go, and it will communicate, you'll certainly do things that he'll want to tick off the list and make sure he addresses and I'll have the same, and we'll just make sure that we get it done. And I think if there's one thing that is maybe the number one thing that falls under the coach's job requirements, I suppose would be extra reassure your players. So within the heat of the battle, Jo can walk to the corner know that, that I've got his back with all the history that we have together and all that we've been through, I feel like that's, that's very powerful in and of itself to know, to feel that support in his corner is, is a good thing for the relationship. You know, I think I think we've been through, we've been through a lot and you know, it's it's the professional aspect of our relationship is, it is a bit of a, it's a bit of an awkward moment, you know, you don't be having the Money Chat with a pal or, you know, criticizing a pal or, you know, there's there's different sides of it, maybe failing to, to be really critical of one another and maybe letting a few things fester. And maybe that comes to a head and then we kind of have it out. But I think we've only recently made a pact, that we'll be totally blunt and upfront, especially when it comes to the tennis and I think you just know that. Really, my intentions are pure, my intentions are to facilitate his development in the sport as best as I can. So just keep navigating the and if there's things that I'm doing or not doing, just keep telling me, you know, like, if there's things that are irritating you, you're gonna have to be honest, and maybe that's hard for him to. And believe me, sometimes. There's a few things that I think he shouldn't be doing. And I don't know if it's the right thing to address it. Maybe in the past I shied away from it. But I think our relationship is still evolving in that sense.

Daniel Kiernan  52:50

Very good. Yeah. Because I'm, I like to be devil's advocate. Not because I necessarily like to be devil's advocate, but because I know, someone listening is definitely being devil's advocate, you know, and I often think of that person, whoever that is, and what that person's thinking. And that person I think is thinking, okay, great, but doesn't need to be challenged as well, you know, doesn't need to be told, and you've answered that with the pack that you've put in place, you know, to have those difficult conversations. And that's the bit I'd like to move in next because I want I want people listening to, to get the nuances of of working in the doubles world. And we are in a in a in a team sport, you know, and that's, you know, we're both college guys. So we get the team bit and I think the reason we both love colleges is because we have that in us. But tennis naturally is an individual sport, we start out on this journey, we go and play our first under a tournament and you're on your own your names in the draw, you're on your own, and you're playing against some other kid who's got snots rolling down his nose, you know, and you played against him. And, and the parent of that kid doesn't care about you, they care about their kid, you know, and then that's kind of how it starts. And then and then we all have individual coaches who just care about that individual individual player and that's that's the kind of setup from the sport so I don't think it's necessarily that people selfish in terms of they they mean to be selfish but I think the speed this I think the sport creates a selfish surrounding. Yeah, and and, and then in the doubles world, I kind of rocked up in Turin last year, and I think great topic teams is going to be amazing. And I'm like, I've never seen marriage and private practice together. Oh my god, that coach is coaching that player and that plays them with that another coach, and I'll be honest, I was a bit naive to it all. Hold on, I was like, what is what is going on? This seems to be a very individualized way of doing things, even though it's the team working together. And I know you've experienced both, you know, you've had times where you've been an individual coach, or there's been an individual and another individual coach, working with the other player. And then you've also experienced being that being the team. Coach, give us your thoughts on on the weird and wonderful world of individual versus team coaching on the doubles tour?

Dave O'Hare  55:34

Well, yeah, I think it's, it is interesting how that's more of the anomaly for these teams to have just just individual coaches, as opposed to a team coach, I think myself and yourself are a few that I really can't think of many other teams, it might just be myself and yourself that are, I mean, I guess now that we have Christine involved on on, maybe, maybe it's just you, but certainly for a large part of the guy's career to date, it was neither was the team coach, which has its limitations as well. But I think, overall, to have the vision for the team, you know, I think it's good to think of it as your kind of coaching, three, some coaching each of the guys individually. And then I'm coaching the team, and trying to facilitate the team as best as I can. And in part that's managing the relationship, you know, making sure everyone's singing from the same hymn sheet, making sure that all this nuance Managing Schedules. And, you know, I think that's the tough thing, you know, tennis players are probably innately selfish. And it's may be tough to get across to one another. At times, actually, it's best for this person and best for the team if he does this. And if you do why that's going to be beneficial, because I think the guys have, maybe they can have a perception of what the other one is doing. And that can confessor in their own mind, and maybe create some frustration when they don't think that's necessarily the case, I think you just have to when you have a team coach, and he can kind of relate stories of the practice or whatever that is on top of it. And that's maybe a little bit reassuring. Whereas if you've got totally separate coaches than just the Hey, feels like a bit of a divide in, in the chain. So yeah, it's interesting, I just feel like if things don't go well, with the team coach, there can be direct conversation amongst the three everyone's comfortable in the three can share their innovations or their queries or concerns. Whereas if there's maybe individual coaches, that player might just go to the individual coach individually expresses concerns and can vent a little bit, but I don't necessarily think that anything is maybe get resolved in that way. I think that maybe can create a bigger divide in the team, or is having a team coach and both players expressing concerns and D being kind of the bridge of communication amongst the two, I think is healthy. I'll be it may be sometimes for me, it can be tricky, because obviously my relationship with Joe, and I'll be probably try and save a regime because I'm very conscious of my show that I would I would hate to be considered a ring Joe's needs over rashes. Yeah, I would have thought through probably lent more on his side of the coin, more often than not, but then from the lens that he views it from, he just knows that Dave's Joe's? Me, like he's going to just do it. And so he probably thinks it's 7030 in Joe's favor when I would argue that it's maybe been different. So I think it's both have their pros and cons, but I think ultimately a vision for the team. And again, it's a unique set of circumstances and that we still have Louis involved as kind of a consultant head coach, I suppose or something, it's fun to be part of such a professional outfit that these are the kinds of chats that you're having, and obviously with a very inexperienced coach back in 2019, you know, to have been part of this team and and the environment is just a very steep learning curve. And all that goes into our pre match preparations you know, match meeting the night before meeting the day of debrief, you know, I think it's just it's a it's a constant machine. It constantly keeps learning and adapting and adding that into practice you know, anything that's happened and when you watch Joel or G but their best their understanding of one another it's it's almost like they don't even have to play well. It's like a bonus if they play well but they just get such good synergy is the word that we use that they've worked so well with one another that that it's a bonus if they're hitting the center of the right hand. They don't often have to do that.

Daniel Kiernan  59:56

But one of the one of the most profound things I someone ever said to me, and it really stuck with me actually, is we're all to decisions, bad decisions away from being homeless. And, and when you think about that, it's true than to live life with that. That humility, that perspective, I think is I think, is really important because I think we can often get ahead of ourselves and we can often get behind ourselves and down on ourselves so much, you know, it's that it can go both ways. And to bring that into tennis. We're one or two points away, always from from a bad moment and one it but will also one or two good bullet points away from a good moment. And again, I think, you know, it's, it's, it's treating those imposters that, to take the Wimbledon, saying, you know, in a very similar vein, and I think that is massive, and it's, it's a difficult thing to do is when we're in that pressure, and pressure cooker, and it brings that word, it's a word that again, I I think massive, and I certainly didn't have enough of this as a player. But it's something that I as a coach and Academy owner, as a father, as a husband, I do love you, Vicki, but as a husband as well, is tolerance. And in our ability to tolerate and you you mentioned it earlier, and I thought it stood out like a sore thumb when you were telling you a story about Bella rooster Davis Cup, you know, your rackets not turning up that used to freak you out that x y Zed, but you you were able to tolerate all of those things in that moment. Whereas it does feel to me that the doubles world isn't that full of tolerance. And anyone that's a regular listener of the podcast, I absolutely apologize because I've told this story at least 20 times over the almost 200 episodes, but it's the Bryan brothers and it's the Bryan brothers who said, every year, we start the year well, and all these new pairs are trying to come together and they can't quite, you know, they haven't quite got the chemistry going. So we just clean up for six months. And then the last six months of the year, everyone's starting to play well, and we really struggle. And then the year ends and they all split up. And then the next year, we clean up again, well, everyone tries to come together. Now as as twins, I guess you're almost forced through genetics and blood to be tolerant of each other. You know, it kind of comes, it kind of goes with the territory. Whereas I can't help thinking that in the, in the world of doubles, there isn't enough tolerance. And I want to join that point up to potentially the individual coach piece as well, because one of my thoughts is when you have these individual coaches, okay? It's certainly not dissing it, because there's been a lot of success with that system. But if there is a player that's bitching and moaning a bit, via one person who's facilitating it, you can almost manage the relationship, if there's a player bitching and moaning to one coach and the other one's bitching and moaning to the other coach, it takes takes a lot more to be able to bring that together and maybe speeds up that process. You know, we've seen on the men's side, and a Mechanix Pavich, you know, recently recently split, middle cooked meals made semi finals of French Open, and then pretty much jumped ship from that partnership pretty quickly. You know, it doesn't seem like there's that many that stick together, Raj and jaw have got the fruits of that five years of a solid relationship. Is that something that maybe is just healthy? And it's it's natural in a relationship? That is a very much a business relationship in lots of ways? Or is there something to be said for maybe developing a little bit more tolerance and pushing through the tough times?

Dave O'Hare  1:04:01

Yeah, I think there's, I think they have a very healthy professional relationship. I wouldn't say they're best friends. But I mean, they enjoy florenza Dolphin they do this and X and Y together, but I think it's just been an asset to the team, how transparent they've been. And sharing concerns. And you know, particularly I think, Rajiv has been an has been great and in China real eagerness to learn in his transition to like doubles and to be part of the Louie Cayer system. And Joe, obviously very much proud of that systems that like they have equal standing in the relationship, and there's not much ego, albeit that maybe Rajeev is the better player. I don't think he conducts himself in that manner, which is maybe an exception you would say. He doesn't have an inflated ego about him and I think he enables, and he's willing and keen anyways, to coachable communities is for hearing a lot of stuff that maybe could just take what he knows on board and trust it and have that clarity in itself. And it'd be just as effective so so I think that's a big part of of the guys lasting relationship is maybe having a central coach that's that's managed error unable to kind of delegate any concerns and they've always been pretty frank and coming to the table themselves and learning how to the queries because yeah, I think there's, you know, ultimately natural it is a relationship you know, like it's it's maybe even more intense it's it's working relationship so you're traveling 20 Plus we see here with this person, I mean highs and lows, sacrifice from both ends, you know, there's there's a lot at stake. So I think tennis, past are guilty of the grass is always greener and jumping ship. And sometimes I don't always think that that's maybe the best approach. So yeah, so I think that was

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:11

Jo and Raj are definitely a product of that lately. So what was Korea five, you know, the, over the five years, the trophies that they've won and the results that they've won? And I think they're a great example to many pairs out there, of what of what can happen when you when you work in that relationship, because as good as Raj is, he also hadn't had that success previously. You know, and you know, any any service here is a top top top tennis player. But you know, that ability to work with that relationship and get the right connection and synergy that you've said is what is what makes makes the team almost regardless of how good the player is, in some ways. And on that, Dave as well. It's if we take the final in Turin last year, we've got Mektic Pavic. not there anymore. You know, they they looked, I guess they were probably the last team on the men's side that just dominated. That was back in 2021. There was a complete domination for six months. Yeah. It does feel very much like it's open right now. It's obviously whereas in the real world number one, they've just won Wimbledon, their first Grand Slam, but almost kind of coming out of being a court job, Jo and Raj, like and fit and forget them for a minute. You know, who who are for those listening? Who aren't? Who are some of the exciting teams coming through at the minute, maybe some teams to watch that you've kind of had your eye on and you can you can see them see them coming?

Dave O'Hare  1:07:39

Well, I think, I think probably Wes and Neal, I would, I would assume will be the team that will, you know, I think capturing their first slam together. And I think that will really spur them on. I think they'll be a tough team to beat over the next few months until the end of the year. Obviously Dodig Krajicek, I think having won Monte Carlo, having won the French Open, you know there was a period there I thought that they were going to be maybe even a more dominant teams in the space. They are pretty good size and made it to Turin last year. They're very exciting. Harri and Lloyd have obviously been doing exceptionally well. And I think you've shared with me earlier on last week is their first first round loss and nine months as a unit. So that's a very good consistent start. So I think there's a lot of teams that that are showing a lot of us Zelinsky knees, it seems like once they get on the street and get a few matches under their belt, and they're quite dangerous and

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:44

first round or winners, aren't they?

Dave O'Hare  1:08:46

They're first round or winners. Yeah, like so I think they're a good example.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:50

I got a little bit of insight into this actually, that they have a certainly Zielinski is very so happy that he kind of made it that he now feels like there's no pressure anymore, which I think is so so they have they have quite a bit like what I'm saying with bazball, you know of the cricket, they almost have a way of playing. And it's quite non negotiable. And it's like we're just gonna, we're just gonna take it on Play With high tempo get up to our returns. And we know we know when we're on we're going to be really good. But they've literally finalist of Australian Open when it win in Rome, and hardly done anything apart from those two, you know, which is which is amazing. The other one I would like to mention, I think they're lovely lads as well. Is jheel and vliegen. You know, yeah. And they seem to really be starting to get it together. You know? Yeah, yeah. They had open

Dave O'Hare  1:09:51

beta took your last year. All right. They're a threat. Maybe we lost them at the beginning of the year and boom, they played a good match against them like it was six and five or five and six or something like that. But high level and when they're feeling good, they're dangerous, you know that they both can serve very well. And there's an element of fear factor on their return games where they can light it up. And they're quite flashy. And it seems like they're, they're getting that consistency going. But yeah, I think they've they're a good example of the team that stuck together. Yeah, obviously had a pretty pretty stellar run at Roland Garros a few weeks ago, and I'm sure looking for another couple of healthy runs for the end of the year.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:31

And I think even from that talk we've had there, I think we proves the point. It's open. You know, and it's I'm sure, you know, we all as, as coaches have a couple of the top pairs we'll be, we'll be having those conversations that you get the things right, there's this plenty of opportunity left, there's a hell of a lot of tournaments left to be played for a lot of points, a lot of money for these guys. So all the best to you and the boys, I will look forward to seeing you, Cincinnati. Hopefully, hopefully, my boys and your boys will have a few more wins under their belt by the end. But my last question before we go into the quickfire round Dave is yourself is 30 to 33 years old, you know, at a fantastic career to date, you know, with your with your playing, you know what you've achieved, and then going on and doing a brilliant job as a coach, is the future. Coaching for you? Is this. Are you set? Are you the you the guy on the tour now for the next 2030 years? Is their ambitions to do something different? What is the what is the future hold for devil hair?

Dave O'Hare  1:11:42

Yeah, great question. I think for the foreseeable, it's the tour. And I think things will probably get more challenging. I think if family was a potential for me, then then I think my desire to be away from them for so many weeks might diminish, but certainly for where I am right now, with my girlfriend, it works for us, for me to be on the road. She's able to join for a few weeks. And yeah, if children were to enter the equation, then I think I would, I would, I'd have to rethink my my schedule a little bit.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:19

But after year, after year, after you, get no sleep. And the first week, she'll realize that it's the best place to be

Dave O'Hare  1:12:26

So there you go. Yeah, so and so for me. Yeah, I think I think tennis has always been a big part of my life. And I'm very grateful for the opportunity that it's opened the doors for me for many different things. And I would like to try and give back, you know, I think I would enjoy a role back in Ireland in some capacity. And hopefully, for the coming tie of it. Hopefully, I'll be playing but I think there's an a vice captain role, potentially, yeah, obviously, it'd be a great honor to give back to Irish tennis. And if that was Davis Cup captain in the coming years, that would be a rule that I would enjoy. And, yeah, I think I'm in a very fortunate position to be in a position that I'm in and I would like to try and share and kind of bolster the level within Irish tennis. And, you know, I think as we as we are right now, we're a little bit short of soldiers on the road. So it'd be it'd be fun to see, you know, a few more Irish names, and maybe get a few Irish players contending in a few slams, you know, 10, 12 years down the line, and there'll be something that I do, but certainly for where I'm at right now, really enjoying kind of being close at the top of the game and find that there's no better way to, to learn and refine your craft and where I'm currently at, I know I've still got a long way to go to be the coach that I want to be, to try and have the impact that I want to have. And not even just from a tennis standpoint, but even just from, you know, like you can say and just like a depreciation or life standpoint of just like, all of these players are made the prediction that you could show them more gratitude for that, you know, I think one of the mentality of the tour is is maybe not the case, and I think they lose touch of their humble beginnings, maybe, you know, I certainly remember where I started and a lot of the struggles that I faced along the way and I think a lot of the other players maybe you've lost sight of that and in some ways, but I think it's definitely a great challenge to to try and have an impact and in in player's careers at all levels, you know, myself at the top of game but I enjoy the the individual sessions that I do back in Ireland or the doubles clinics that I do with beginners. You know, I think it's fun to see progress Ultimately and in many ways it's maybe more rewarding when you see like real tangible change after an error of insight and to be valued like that feels great and with these guides you know what separates a good and a bad day of practice just executing and millimeter inside the line or a millimeter right so I've been on So mini tennis red for you is that is where that is where you get the biggest range of change. If you if you do a good job, it's incredibly rewarding. We know what your next job is Dave, but let's see what you like it quickfire round all time favorite doubles player. I suppose there's always fun watching the BrYn's I can't really single them out but I'll say the Bryan's

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:51

The perfect partner for you on the doubles court and why

Dave O'Hare  1:15:58

Roger, I feel like he'd make up for a lot of my inadequacies out there.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:02

The woodies or the Bryan's

Dave O'Hare  1:16:05

I've already said Brian, so

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:07

You're showing your age.

Dave O'Hare  1:16:08

Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:09

You're too young, Rafa or Roger.

Dave O'Hare  1:16:12

I admire them equally for different reasons. Yeah, I think I'll say one thing I think, for me, nobody appreciates being out on the court as much as Rafa and I think that's why he should be the spearhead of the tour. I think that is an unbelievable attribute of the number one players have the most appreciated player I think, he relishes and respects everything that happens out there on the court. So I think I'll go Rafa

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:40

Favorite Grand Slam,

Dave O'Hare  1:16:42

Australia.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:43

Serve or return

Dave O'Hare  1:16:45

Serve.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:47

I or reg.

Dave O'Hare  1:16:49

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:50

This is the formations for you lot out there. What's one piece of advice for a club doubles player?

Dave O'Hare  1:16:57

E plus R equals O?

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:01

What's one rule change you would have in doubles?

Dave O'Hare  1:17:04

We talked about this only recently. Maybe the service partner starting behind the service line. And it being foot fault if you walked inside, so maybe the point could unfold a little bit. I think that could be interesting to see how that would unfold.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:18

Wouldn't wouldn't be good for Raj. I tell you that he is close to that net. five sets of three at grand slams.

Dave O'Hare  1:17:27

I think three doubles. Yeah, yeah, three,

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:31

who's gonna win the US Open men's doubles. Not allowed to say Raj and Jo.

Dave O'Hare  1:17:36

Oh, we're gonna for three in a row, please let it be us.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:40

I'll let you have it for three in a row. What does control the controllables mean to you?

Dave O'Hare  1:17:45

Control the controllables. To me, it's giving yourself the best possible possibility for success. I think being solutions orientated and weighing the scales in your in your favor giving yourself the best chance to perform well. By controlling control. I think most players are great ability to state the problem. And not many players actually find a way to solve the problem.

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:14

Very good. And who should our next guests be on Control the Controllables

Dave O'Hare  1:18:19

Jesus you've had so many close to 200

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:23

You're responsible for getting them on by the way. Oh, am I shoot before you save a rock Obama or someone?

Dave O'Hare  1:18:30

I mean, maybe this is counter but it'd be interesting to see. Well, I'd be fun stories of it Fabian lowlife from the functional tenants podcast came on.

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:40

We us, podcasts we stick together there's plenty of space for us all but he's been on.

Dave O'Hare  1:18:46

He's been on okay. And one podcast that I'm really enjoying at the minute is the man Stephen Bartlett diary of a CEO. He'd be a good guest not that he's probably got any tenants background but

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:58

have you got Have you got the hookup?

Dave O'Hare  1:19:00

Yeah. Oh, no.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:03

So you're you're someone else I'm gonna have to chase because we got to keep passing this button on. But I'm sure over the next couple of weeks we can have a thing we can pick it up in the states and get the next guest on but Dave, honestly met brilliant loved, loved hearing your story, your insight. Just nice for me to have a chance to sit and chat you know you. You think we've got more time out there than then we actually do but we need to do it again. Maybe with the cameras. The cameras off and all the best to Jo and Raj over the next couple of weeks and look forward to look forward to catching up keep up the good work

Dave O'Hare  1:19:40

See you in Cinci

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:41

Top man. Thank you.

Dave O'Hare  1:19:43

Thanks so much.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:44

And as ever, I have the CTC producer and my beautiful wife Vicki next to me.

Victoria Kiernan  1:19:51

You see he's throwing that in there because he goes off tomorrow morning. He's trying to get my good books.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:57

You got to get the bonus points in Well she can This is life of a travel traveling tennis coach any traveling coaches will know that and 4 Well, I do have a 20 hour flight before I see anyone in Cincy. That's in about five hours time. So it's not going to be there's not going to be too clever for me for the first little bit but yeah, I'm excited to get back out there with with Harri Helliovarra and Lloyd Glasspool and and see what the next few weeks hold.

Victoria Kiernan  1:20:07

If I hear see you in Cincy Dan, one more time. And jokes aside about you going away? How are you feeling about it? Because it's been a bit of a, it's been a bit of a stop and start few weeks for you guys since Harry's had his second child.

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:46

Yeah, it has. And I mean, it's never easy. I think in any anyone's year, when you you lose a little bit of momentum, you know, could be injuries could be loss of form. And in this case, it's it's Harri's family, you know, a second second child, a little a little boy that arrived, which is which is fantastic. And I think that trumps anything on the tennis court, but but I'm really happy to see how quickly they've got up to speed actually, you know, in Washington, the 500 event had a couple of really good wins, match points to in the semi finals to make the final. So the boys are in a good place. And, you know, they they love the hard courts as du jour and Raj, you know, and all the British guys have got each other's backs, you know, we're all happy for Neil And where's winning Wimbledon, but it just whet the appetite for the teams that are just behind to see if they can get a Grand Slam to their name as well. So that's going to be the name of the game. That's what we're all after. And it's exciting to be it to be a part of,

Victoria Kiernan  1:21:49

I really enjoyed actually hearing you both talk about the doubles, because you'd both do have a similar setup. And hearing him say how he looks at it, like he's coaching two individual players, and then the team. So there's three roles he could he kind of has, and he has he's working to facilitate the team to be the best that they can be,

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:09

He is absolutely spot on with that. And we talked about that, you know, tennis players, traditionally are selfish you know, it's a it's an individual sport. So we still have to treat each player as an individual, you know, even though they are part of a team, but then it's about how you can find the right synergies, how you can gel that together to make the partnership work from a tactical standpoint, yes, but also just from, from, from a human standpoint, you know, how they, how they work together, how they understand each other, how they like to communicate, you know, there's so many different stocks, in some case, yeah, or not. And that's why we do see a lot of these teams splitting up as well, because any relationships hard, you know, any, any relationship in this in this world is hard, you know, and relationships can get stale, and if people aren't communicating correctly, and, and they're not mutually benefiting from each other in terms of what they're putting out on the court. And things can go sour quite quick. So that's a big, big part of of what our coach's job is as a doubles coach. And certainly for me personally, having the almost the team coach role, as well as the individual coach role means that you can facilitate that a little bit easier. Whereas with some teams, you've got quite a few coaches involved and, and that's just more relationships, more relationships to manage, but no, I loved it. I love talking to Dave. And I think that's the big thing for me about Dave, he's such a great role model out there. You know, we've talked a lot about this in the podcast that call us Alkire as eager yesterday on tech, you know, they're the superstars of the game the up and coming superstars. But actually look at a Dave O'Hare, you know, from you know, humble background, the fourth child didn't play a whole lot of tennis started to kind of top it up a little bit more when he was 1516 just went about his normal life, yet he's still able to get a scholarship into a division one university and not just do that not just gone just live the party life and get his degree but then go on just massively improve and develop his game through college tennis, you know, finished his final year I think like we said number three in the NCAAs is in the doubles, and then on the back of that got wildcards you know, and these are the things that, you know, the opportunities that come from a successful college career are massive, got wildcards into ATP and Memphis you know, obviously roommate of Joe Salisbury. It's a lovely story that they're now working together and, you know, won grand slams it together and then he's represented his country's and now now at age 33, is a Grand Slam winning coach and still plays Davis. Cup ins keeps himself in great shape plays very well. There's actually a little fun story in Miami. I think it was Rajeev had a little injury, and couldn't make the practice very last minute. So, so Dave actually jumped in and played a set with Jo against Harry and Lloyd. And I don't know if memory serves me correct, but I've got a feeling Jo and Dave might have won the set seven, five, you know, if not, it was a very close it was it was it was a close set either way. And that just shows that Dave's level still

Victoria Kiernan  1:25:29

I was gonna say, so he's still got a really good level,

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:32

You know, he absolutely does. And he's in great shape. And, you know, I really mean it, you know, he's a hard working guy. You know, he's incredibly conscientious, you hear him talking about, you know, how he's, how he's wanting to learn all the time, you know, you're a real student of the game, and then he's been persistent, and he's put himself and if you get those sort of things in place, we talk about it all the time, you won't go too far wrong. And being a good guy and being someone that you want to be around. So I would certainly say, you know, role models, yes. Have you superstars that you look up to, but also have your Dave O'Hare's that you look up to as well, because they're the real stories and heroes of our sport as well.

Victoria Kiernan  1:26:16

It is an awesome story. But I mean, what I loved hearing was when he said, how his love for the sport has grown. I think he said exponentially since taking on this coaching role. Wow. At that point in his life is a kind of getting a bit bored of it. But no, he's saying, I mean, you could tell the way he was talking as well how much you like the passion that he has, for tennis and still growing.

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:41

I think that's maybe an advantage as well of not overdoing it as a junior, you know, I think, you know, if we do anything too much, it can become a little bit boring. And we can go through ups and downs with it. And we see these these juniors that are pushed and pushed and pushed and I certainly experienced that, you know, traveling the world from a very young age and, and falling a little bit out of love with the sport at certain times. And absolutely fell back in love with it over the last few years. But yeah, if we take we take Dave's tennis age, it's probably quite young, still relatively, you know, Johnny Maria, the same remember Johnny at 18 and never really traveled? You know, and I always felt that when when I was traveling with Johnny as a Player, he hadn't done it to death yet. You know, so I think there's a lot there's a lot to be said it's a it's a long journey. So parents, coaches and players out there, don't feel that you have to fit everything in now, you know, allow allow the journey to unfold. And that certainly happened with Dave

Victoria Kiernan  1:27:44

And talking about love, you both had a lot of love, shall I say respect admiration for for Louie, Louie Cayer

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:53

Legend. You know, he really is he's, I can't speak highly enough

Victoria Kiernan  1:28:01

Everything he was saying. I was like, this is exactly what Dan says all the time.

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:04

Yeah I mean, I really can't I mean, that like somebody who, and actually, and I'm sure I've shared a couple of those stories. Previously, you know, my first couple of encounters with Louis, and was like, Who is this guy? Like, he has mental like, and he doesn't, you didn't give any time to me and, you know, he made me work for that relationship. But he is just the Pep Guardiola of tennis for me, you know, he's the knowledge and for me and Dave, I think the gratitude we have that Louie is our mentor you know, we have Louis on speed dial, you know, we can call them at any point we're in touch, you know, on a daily basis and you know, I can only speak for myself but over the last nine months, the amount that I've learned from that man is just incredible. And I said this to Louis actually a few months ago before I even knew him I would learn so much from Louie and he was a massive influence on my career you know, just from all the videos and the readings and the many things that add add add looked up on him but I used to think what he was was just a bag of knowledge. But now that I've got to know Louie is a bag of knowledge with the ability to to pass on that knowledge through relationship building and through through the way that he packs up that knowledge and and gives it to the players and to the coaches so very very grateful British tennis should be an and I know are incredibly grateful and lucky to have him

Victoria Kiernan  1:29:32

His success on the double side the last 15 years it's been phenomenal. If you haven't listened to his episode on Control the Controllables is well worth going back and having a little I'll put a link in the show notes for anyone who hasn't heard it yet. And we can't not talk this week about Caroline Wozniacki making her comeback three and a half years after announcing her retirement, two kids later, just awesome.

Daniel Kiernan  1:29:43

Still the most download. Yeah, number one, and there's a reason for that, you know, I actually spoke to Louie on it and if Louie is listening now, sorry for sharing this Louis said Why did people want to listen to me? I'm boring. I don't tell stories, you know, not entertaining, you know, and he is but his education is that good? That it's worth listening to, you know, and that's, that is the big, big big thing that people will be listening for listening to with a notebook and pen. Get it into your veins. Louie Cayer incredible man. And Freddie Nielsen nailed it. Yeah, he did. I think there was people out there that were like, This is a gimmick. This is not true. This is you know, yeah, right. Let's see, she comes back plays one match to come back win two and two and a first match played some incredible points to then go set three love down to the Wimbledon champion on Vondrousova, and then win four games in a row to go for three hours lost a tight set seven five, so

Victoria Kiernan  1:30:54

So exciting. I was like, Oh, come

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:57

Her levels, obviously there you know. And

Victoria Kiernan  1:30:59

Freddie said to me, she's not she's not coming back because she's bored. She's coming back because she believes she can compete with the best players in the world. And, you know, not a bad Not a bad start.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:11

No, not at all. So all the best to Caroline it will be excited to see how, how the next few months go on if a body holds up. And, you know, she starts to put these matches together. But I think it's a great story that we've got on the women's side

Victoria Kiernan  1:31:22

Wildcard into US Open.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:26

She's not going to struggle for wildcards and, and rightly so she's going to she's gonna put bums on seats. You know, she's, she's a superstar of the game. She deserves those wildcards. She's taken it seriously. She's obviously in great shape. So yeah, it's all it's all building to a fantastic fourth Grand Slam of the year in a couple of weeks.

Victoria Kiernan  1:31:45

This is the slam where I really don't get much sleep for two weeks staying up late watching all the matches. We said it in the last episode, we're edging edging closer to 200th episode of Control the Controllables and we have our target in mind of who we want as our guests for our 200th episode for our 100th we had Nick Bollettieri who was awesome and 200 We talked about the baton being passed but it's well and truly in your hand to see if you can get Sir Andy Murray on Hey getting on.

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:23

Gentlemen don't tell what I what I will What I will say is 199 is going to be a Corker. I mean, Jan Stoces the performance director of check tennis, check tennis who are absolutely rocking the world of tennis right now. I've been 15 years got this conveyor belt of, of player after player after player Grand Slam finalist Wimbledon winners. You know, so Jan is coming on, as 199 I can't wait to have that conversation. There's so much I want to know about Czech tennis. And yeah, that's uh, you know, I'm a tennis player, Vicki, I only look one ahead, you know, 1 point at a time. So that'll be that'll be 199 coming up. And let's see, we'll see where watch this space. We'll see where the next. The next one's in the future. Take

Victoria Kiernan  1:33:17

We've talked it up so much. Now if you don't deliver it, it's going to be such a disappointment. I feel for that. 200th guests if it's not,

Daniel Kiernan  1:33:25

Andy Murray doesn't do podcasts. Let's remove any expectation. It's Andy Murray doing the podcast, but enjoy the next one that's coming with you in a few days time. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables