Dr Mark Kovacs - The Serve Doctor

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 158, of Control the Controllables. And today is a very special episode, because we come to you as the best tennis podcast of 2021. Voted by you guys. Thank you, thank you all for for voting us in at the Sports Podcast Awards. An incredible feeling for all of the team last Thursday night when we when we found that out. We never expected it so many other fantastic tennis podcasts out there. And a big honor a big big privilege and something we take take very seriously. And we we promise we will try and carry this forward over the next 12 months as your as your Tennis Podcast of 2021. So thank you all. And we're bringing you a brilliant guest to celebrate that fact.

Dr Mark Kovacs  01:07

There's no reason that a female can't serve, relatively speaking, as well as a guy. Obviously, there are some some differences in sometimes height, but sometimes not. We know a lot of tall females strength is a component of it. But if females are training, right, of course, they can get really strong in the right areas. It's not the player's fault most of the time. It's the environment that they've grown up in

Daniel Kiernan  01:33

Dr Mark Kovacs, the Chief Performance Officer at the Kovacs Institute. Listen carefully because he is a high performance expert, a sport technology consultant, a performance psychologist, a researcher, a professor and author, a speaker and coach with an extensive background training and researching elite athletes. And he is known as the go to expert for professional athletes for corporate executives, people that are looking for science based programming to optimize human performance. Now, that is a mouthful. That is a lot of things that this man does. He's the same age as me, and I'm still a young pup. I was at university not with him, but we played against each other. A man never tells. So I'm not going to I'm not going to talk about what the result was. You can maybe Google it and find out. But I've known Mark for 20 plus years now. And I say this to him in the episode but a few years after we graduated in college, I was trying to find a little bit of information on the serve. And somebody said I'll go to the Serve Doctor, go and listen to the Serve Doctor, and I said Mark Kovacs, I recognize that name. And it was it was it was the Mark Kovacs. It was now Dr. Mark Kovacs. Already a few years out of graduating from university, and he's gone on some just amazing things worked with so many players, including John Isner, Sloane Stephens, Madison keys, Donald Young, he is working in the NBA, working across sports, and does a fantastic job. It's a great episode. You'll love it notepad and pen time, pass you over to Dr. Mark callbacks. So Mark Kovacs a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Dr Mark Kovacs  03:33

I'm doing awesome. How are you?

Daniel Kiernan  03:35

I'm good. A little bit a little bit under the weather. I think this, this the Spanish weather. I'm used to sunshine but it's been going in between sun and rain the last couple of days. It's this season change that I'm putting it down to so but all the better for having you on Mark. And to start us off. I have to ask. Did you watch the Oscars last night?

Dr Mark Kovacs  04:01

I did actually yes. I was watching the Oscars. Obviously the Venus and Serena story is close to me. And you know, knowing a lot of the characters involved in in the film. I was curious to see how that went.

Daniel Kiernan  04:16

And you have to break it down then the Will Smith slap on Chris Rock. How did how did he do from a biomechanical standpoint? Yeah,

Dr Mark Kovacs  04:27

Purely from a biomechanics standpoint. He definitely loaded his back leg well and you saw he really stabilized through that hip really well. And then he rotated his torso came through with his arm and I mean it was a really good if you comparing it to a forehand and look quite similar to a forehand he had a full extension, full follow through. So though there was a lot of things that you could take away from that from a forehand perspective.

Daniel Kiernan  04:51

But just I mean, unbelievable and well described. Because already I think there's some there's all of the gifts and every, social media has gone wild and added Wilson rackets to the end of his hand and all of those things. But I guess, I think a little bit of a shame as well, though, when we should have been celebrating to have two of our greatest, you know, two of our greatest to ever walk on the courts, and there's so many positives that could have come out of that story. And we should be raving about the Williams sisters about Richard about, you know, bringing that that story to life. And instead, we're talking about a couple of males that have that have made errors again, so a real shame. But I think a topic that we had to start with, because it's such a hot topic, but everyone's here today Mark to hear about you. And, and I am as well, because we go a long way back, you know, we go back to 1998, both of us were freshmen going into the S and C, you know, me at LSU. And you had all been, and then I've watched from afar as your careers developed incredibly well. But I'm always interested in this in this podcast mark on. I think there's a way into the sport, and then there's a way out, and not those out of the sport, but out of playing. And I think those two things are always fascinating, because there's so many different ways it can go. So what was your in? When did that? When did the tennis fit start for you?

Dr Mark Kovacs  06:23

Yeah, no, I mean, I was fortunate, I had a parent that played. So like a lot of people, that's what brought me into the game. It was really babysitting, my dad played a lot. And he would just drop me at the courts when he would go play and there was a wall there. And there were a few other kids that were being dropped off the same way. And it was like three or four hours of just hitting against the wall and playing with other kids. And then once he got up to US level, at the end of the three hours that they played their kind of league matches, you may maybe get on the courts for three or four minutes and hit around. And that was like the best part of the day. And that was how I started. Never really took a formal lesson till probably 11 or 12. So I sort of just learned from the people at this club, it was very much an old school type of club where juniors would play with seniors, you'd have a bench and you just wait and it would be next whatever court was open, you jump on and you'd figure out a game. And it was it was very different than how things are done today, at least. where everything's so structured. This was literally like pickup basketball, it was pickup tennis, it was exactly how pickup tennis was done. And it was a great environment because you wanted to play with adults, you learn to play with super seniors, you learn to play with ladies, you learn to play with everyone and someone being 9,10,11 years old, you don't really see that today, most of the time kids play with kids, and they don't get exposed to all the different spins and strategies and techniques and things like that.

Daniel Kiernan  07:53

It is it's it is a very similar story. You know, and like I say your guest number 160 or so on the on this podcast. And there's been very few that haven't organically been introduced to the sport, through a parent through living next door to a tennis club. And how quickly did it start to become a little bit more serious? And at this point, I've also got to mention, this was obviously back in Australia. Yeah,

Dr Mark Kovacs  08:19

correct. So yeah, like I played like a lot of kids our age, we played a lot of sports. So you know, I was pretty good at cricket. Cricket was a sport I played a lot of and was at a high sort of, you know, state national type level, and then played Australian Rules football until about 12. Pretty competitively as well. And that was when I kind of had to make a decision at about 12 Australian rules, football is pretty rough and tumble. And if you wanted to go that route, you sort of had to not play a lot of other sports well, because you were so tired from practicing, and you got to hit a lot. So I sort of made that decision that about 12 that tennis was sort of where I'd spend majority of my time. But I you know, the beauty of tennis, which suited my personality a bit was it was all on my shoulders good or bad, you win or you lose. It's my fault. You don't have teammates? Well, you have to sort of do it yourself. You can't really blame anyone else, which I sort of like I mean, we know losses hurt, losses hurt really badly. You can't blame anyone else. But you also could always get back on the practice court the next day and trying to work on something, trying to figure it out, try to find that solution to why the loss occurred and build off that. And

Daniel Kiernan  09:38

then US college, US college came up before that was was it was there a possibility of you going and playing professional tennis at that point? You know, someone from Australia back in those days, not that many players maybe went to US college so so so how did that come about?

Dr Mark Kovacs  09:56

Yeah, so I was in sort of the top three or four in the country for have, you know, from about 14 onwards, I was I was good. I wasn't a top 20 Junior in the world, but I had some good wins was going along that path that probably to play professionally. And when I was 16, I got a case of mono pretty badly, I didn't realize I had it, I was playing a national tournament, and woke up one day and just couldn't lift my head off the pillow kept playing the event, you know, three more days kept playing through it just thought it was a regular cold, finish the event and then got home and saw the doctor and basically couldn't couldn't leave the house and it got pretty bad. So I was I was unable to really leave the house for about six weeks, lost a ton of weight, couldn't really hit tennis balls for probably three or four months. And that sort of made the decision a little bit for me. Okay, I was right, I was right on the sort of, you know, barrier, I could have flipped a coin, whether I was going to go straight professional or go to college. Looking back, you know, it's one of those times where, you know, that may have been the best thing that happened to me, because I definitely wasn't, wasn't ready to play professional at that time at the level I needed to, you could win matches at futures and challenges. But as we know, there's a big jump. And when you're 17, 18, you know, you you don't have the full exposure to what's out there. So the plan was to go for six months, and then then go play. So that was that was a unique story in itself. So I definitely think it's a huge opportunity for players. And it's pretty easy to determine, we've done a lot of studies on this looking at player pathways to professional tennis, where you need to be at certain levels to make that decision easier. And there's very few players where it's a bad decision to go to college, the ones that are a very obvious, I mean, you've got a handful of players, mainly US players that have to make that decision in most Europeans, and most other countries that are at a level where they have financial support. That's the big one. Do you have a sponsor? Do you have a federation? Do you have someone that's willing to pay a couple $100,000 a year for you to get good coaching, good travel those first couple years where you're not making enough money, if you don't have that accessible to you, that makes it really, really hard and unnecessary. When I say unnecessary is you can go, you know, stay at a really nice place, eat good food, get good treatment, have gym access, hit with good players, and still play 15 tournaments a year, even while you're at school, and then get your ranking into the top three or 400 and then make the jump. To me, that's the easiest, best way to do it for players that are out on that edge. If you're a superstar, and you've been tracking a top 10, Top 25 Top 50 pro career from 14 or 15, you're gonna get the million dollar plus check from someone to go travel good to go play because your results show that you're ready basically get at that level or close to that level. For everyone else, it's to me a really simple decision to make,

Daniel Kiernan  13:24

in terms of the finance piece more just more modest for the listeners. If you've got a couple of $100,000 a year to travel, but you're not have the level of a tennis player, that money isn't going to do anything for you. You know, certainly not gonna not gonna take you to be the next Rafael Nadal. So in terms of the figures, and I know, you're very data driven in what in what you do, which I love, you know, what, what figures? And do those figures change from men in the women's side, when it comes down to a decision? So if you were, if you were advising a decision of a player to go to college or not take away any personal side of this. If you're looking purely from a data point of view, what would what would be the data tracking on the on the male side and the female side?

Dr Mark Kovacs  14:18

Yeah, it's a great point. And as we know, males have a slightly more depth when it comes to when you break even financially in the tour. But it's not it's getting narrower and narrower, just because of how much the Grand Slams have had provided over the last few years. As we know if you can get inside the top 100 And get main draw into the Grand Slams. That's it's a few $100,000 A year right there. And that's assuming you don't make anything else. So right there. You're already sort of covering your expenses and then everything on top of that usually becomes you know some of the savings or you can put it towards Towards a potentially higher level or more experienced coach, a better physio, possibly better food on the road, maybe better accommodations, things like that, that every dollar you spend as a tennis player should be looked at as an investment. But from a standpoint of where the numbers show you should be. Typically, it's hard to say, because I'm a little more US centric standpoint of where you need to be in the junior levels. Typically, in most higher level countries, you need to be number one or two in your country to have a chance. It's just based on numbers, every age group, it's unlikely that more than one player many times it's not even one age group, that will actually make it. So in the world rankings. And again, it's COVID made a mess of all our data, unfortunately, because all the data pre COVID was really consistent and really good. Because you had really good numbers on ATP and WTA, or, you know, IETF levels at the senior level. So challenges and things like that you had pretty good data at the junior level, although there was a big shift over the last four or five years on the guys side, a lot less players were playing the top ITF Junior events, but you pretty much needed to be on the women's side, one to two years above your age group, which I think a lot of females don't realize, like, if you're number one in your country at 18, you're actually two years behind the best in the world, most of the time, you need to be number one in your country at 18, when you're 15 or 16. And that's usually the sign that you're on that top top tier pathway. doesn't mean there aren't like bloomers there are, but they're always in the mix, meaning that they're 34567 in the country. But and then many of them, you know, may take a year or two longer to get there, if they have the discipline, if they have the right support system, if they have the physical gifts as well.

Daniel Kiernan  17:04

Yeah, I mean, I've always, I guess my very basic, just from experience, thought processes being if you aren't regularly winning, making final of your 15k events, age 17, 18, then you should go to college. You know, if you're, I guess if you're doing that you're already a kind of 4-500 player in the world type type level. If you're not doing that, if you're winning, you're qualifying winning the odd round, you know, sometimes losing in quallies, having the odd quarterfinal. I don't think that's enough to justify what you get what you're going to need. I don't know what you think about that.

Dr Mark Kovacs  17:48

No, I agree. 100%. Yeah, you're not good enough today doesn't mean you won't be good enough. It just means today, you're not at that top tier level. And you can listen, if you've got the resources, if you've got some way to fund that lifestyle, and do it. That's fine, if that's the lifestyle you want. But it's just a harder way of doing it. You just don't have as many resources. People say, Well, college could be a distraction, because there's parties, there's all the coursework, there's all that there is but as you know, as I know, I

Daniel Kiernan  18:21

I wouldn't know about I wouldn't know about the distractions Mark.

Dr Mark Kovacs  18:26

And, and just as many distractions or are in colleges as a lot out in the pro lifestyle as well. I mean, it's all about how you handle them and how you deal with them. But the beauty of that college, it gives you a few other benefits, it gives you a time management skill that you are going to need. If you make it as professional tennis player, you're going to have media requirements, sponsor events, you're going to have to deal with family or friends on tour that you're going to have to make time for all those things. You can learn a little bit in that college environment of how to say no when to divide your time into training, recovery, nutrition, schoolwork, sleep, all those things. So there's great opportunities to do it well, but you got to have the right people around you helping you guiding you making sure that you're on the right track.

Daniel Kiernan  19:18

And if we go back to your your personal story, you are you went to Auburn, you know you did your years at Auburn, had a good college career winning the NCAA is in your final year. Correct. And you know which NCAA is for those listening? It's the it's the highest achievement you can have. It's the big national level event at the end of the year. You have to have the ranking to qualify. So if you're if you're winning that you are tracking into being a professional so you're you're tracking to be a professional doubles player. If you're winning the doubles NCAAs did you then take the step into professional tennis, or did your playing tennis stop there

Dr Mark Kovacs  20:00

Yeah, so my my story was a little interesting. So when I started at Oregon, I started getting some shoulder problems literally, actually a few weeks beforehand. I was playing the US Open juniors played doubles with Andy Roddick at the junior US Open that year, we played a tournament down in New Orleans, there was a ITF, Sugar Bowl yeah the Sugar Bowl and started getting a bunch of like dead arm feeling like you know, never really had a shoulder issue at all in my life, and started getting like this dead feeling in my arm couldn't lift it very easily. Didn't really know what it was get to all been, you know, we stopped playing, I don't think my childhood sort of work through it towards the middle of the season, it starts getting worse. We have Dr. James Andrews was our team doc at the time. If anyone knows sports medicine, he's kind of like the most famous surgeon in the US does all the big NFL guys NBA guys. And so so he comes down on his plane, mainly to see football, but then they feed in the tennis guys for about two minutes at the end of the session. One of his fellows, not him, but one of his six or seven people that with him, takes a look and says, Hey, ice and steam, you'll be fine. You're a tennis guy, you're not making any money for the university. So you know this, let's just manage it. So you sort of go through at that time, this is over 20 something years ago now. So it's very different now, obviously, but kind of work through it. And the interesting part was my serve speed, you know, I had, you know, 120 mile an hour 125 mile an hour serve coming in, I said pretty decently every year in college and went down about five to 10 miles an hour. So it finished at about 95 to 100 miles an hour. And that's what gravitated me towards doubles as well. If you ever asked Eric our coach, she said, yeah, it was it was sad watching, watching you serve because all I would do is hit a little slice knuckle serve like a knuckleball into the body or out wide, and try to bluff your way to the net. And you know, try to survive it than that. So that was kind of the problem. For me, I sort of knew, pretty much my senior year, I wasn't going to play professionally because I just couldn't serve very well. And that's what got me into the whole area of understanding the body injuries, serving especially became a real area of interest. And that's kind of got me into that environment. So I played a few months after we played a few challenges, you know, once a matches, it was wasn't like you were winning. But it was it was very uncomfortable, the pain was pretty bad. Immediately, the thing that stopped me completely was I hit a serve at a tournament and my elbow dislocated, which doesn't happen. That's not a, that's not a tennis injury. But what had happened was the bicep tendon had torn. At the top, it was already torn, but you were playing through it, but it completely tore. And that required surgery couldn't keep playing on it was impossible. So that was sort of the end end moment.

Daniel Kiernan  23:15

And knowing what you now know about the serve and I don't think there's much to know about the surf that you don't know, which we're gonna we're gonna jump on to in in a minute. Was that down to technique was that down to not having the right fundamentals? What do you what do you reflect on that and put that down to?

Dr Mark Kovacs  23:39

Yeah, it's a great question. There was a couple of things you look back on. And you're like, Yeah, I did that wrong. I was taught that wrong. There was definitely a couple movements that didn't help. So that was a big part of it. Also, when I grew up, we hit a lot of serves. I mean, you know, where I grew up, it was normal to hit 500 serves a day. So you hit a high volume of service, which was looking back probably a little too much. Also, I did, I was a fast bowler growing up when I was young, in cricket. And I had a lot of extra stress on the arm there. So you look at all those factors that all play a bit of a role. But probably one of the biggest issues was when I was 13, 12, 13, last season and playing Australian rules football. I broke my right ankle, I'm a lefty and didn't really rehab it well enough, I don't think and so I've always had a slight imbalance down there. And after understanding the body and all the different issues that you have as a as a tennis player, they all a lot of them stemmed from that and not fully rehabbing that and then changing your dynamic changing game changing how you load and a lot of that potentially had some influence as well. So like we always say injuries is real The one thing alone, the symptom is obvious because that's where the pain is. The cause many times is complex and multifactorial, and you've got to really take a full holistic view. So it's really hard to say an injury is 100% caused by one thing. But usually there's three or four things that if you address and we've, I've seen that over the last two decades of working with people, you fix the right thing, it nearly immediately takes care of the other thing if you do it, right.

Daniel Kiernan  25:32

It's such a it's such a fascinating story that because the people know Dr. Mark Kovacs, and, uh, you know, I always, I always think in any area of passion that people get into, it's always very interesting how, and it's often it's often a personal story, and a personal reason as to as to why people do get in because if I fast forward a few years after we graduated, I believe we graduated same year 2002. I was I was asking someone about something on the surf, because I certainly even to this day, I think it's the hardest shot in tennis to teach. You know, I think there's so many complexities to it. And somebody said me something and said, this is from the world leader in tennis serving Dr. Mark Kovacs. And I was like, I was probably just open in another beer, as I was questioning what I was doing with my life. Because I think a lot of us were a few years, a few years after graduating, and already, you'd got yourself into this position where, where you were seen as the world's leader in serving, and then obviously, you've gone on and, you know, you've you've opened the callbacks Institute now and on all on all of those things. It seems to happen quick, because 2002 You graduated 2010 You were already winning awards, you know, 2012, you know, it was Hall of Fame, there was there was all all of these, all of these bits that were going on, whilst your peers were either grinding it out in Egypt still on the futures tour, you know, some of them might have gained entry into into into the main drawers of grand slams. Some of them maybe like me, we're still drinking a beer thinking, what am I going to do in my life? So how did you turn that around so quickly? And and I guess, put your put your passion, your purpose into something that is provided so much value for so many people?

Dr Mark Kovacs  27:40

Yeah, not. I mean, it's when you think back, it's like, I have never really thought of it that way. So thanks for asking the question in that frame of reference. But I really hated tennis, the moment I stopped because it was the only thing I ever wanted to do was to be a professional tennis player. I didn't want anything to do with the sport completely. So I didn't pick up a racket didn't step on a tennis court for probably three years. So what I did, though, I knew I wanted to study the body, understand athletes and help athletes be better. So I ended up you know, I was at IMG Academy for a short period working with their football players, working with their baseball guys working with their sprinters at the time, it really got me interested in sprinting, actually, and understanding the fastest people in the world. So I spent about a year and a half, working with some of the top sprinters in the world, really understanding how to you make an athlete as fast as possible. That was sort of where I spent a ton of my energy. And I was fortunate to learn from some of the best speed and spring coaches in the world. You know, and that was an unbelievable experience. Because the intricacies of every step in 100 meter race is amazing. Because every step is going to win or lose your race. If you screw up one step, you're basically done. So the detail and the biomechanics that goes into that really got me interested in that space. So I spent a lot of time there. And I was working as a strength coach. So I was in the weight room every day, with a lot of athletes that were lifting in. The goal was speed power predominantly, wasn't really working in the endurance side of training, it was much more speed and power. How do we get athletes fast all that. And then it was really strange. I was very fortunate to be staying at a house because I had no money. And it was a weird story. About six years earlier, I was playing a money tournament in Alabama actually. It was actually in Rome, Georgia, sorry. And the massage therapist for the event was married to a guy and they kind of took me in that week because I was by myself and they said We'll come to the house for DNA you don't know anyone. So I did. Then they moved down to Florida a few years later. And they said, if you ever want to stay stay with us. So I stayed with them for a summer. And then next door neighbor had like a 15 year old kid that wanted to play college tennis. And they heard I used to play tennis and they said, Hey, can you maybe get on court with this kid and show him something and help him in some way. And I really didn't want to, but it was like, I wanted to thank the people I was staying with and do whatever I could to help their friend. So I did. And that got me back into tennis. And it was it was fun. The kid was good. That kid ended up playing at Michigan. So it was like a whole thing of just luck. That brought me back into the sport. And then that got the ball rolling. And then I really got excited about it ended up going on and doing my PhD, got connected with a couple of different folks and then had some great mentors. And I think that's what how I made that happen quickly was I was lucky enough to get exposed to Paul Rodek. Tight Allen Becker, Paul Lubbers, Jack Rajpal, Jim were a bunch of these guys that some of you may know their names, but they helped me a ton I was I was this young kid who kind of wanted to understand sports science and tennis, and they had all these years of experience. And they were an open book, they just said, Hey, you know, follow them, learn from them, they sent me resources and things like that. And then I got to work with the USTA, which opens up a lot of doors, obviously. And that was sort of how that whole process happened.

Daniel Kiernan  31:38

And, and I know you have been exposed to a lot of other sports, and I know that you still are. So where, where did tennis, it almost hits me that there was a niche in tennis for this, you know, we're starting to get a little bit better with data in tennis. But if we go back 1520 years, it was almost non existent, that you know, the data side of things, the video analysis side of things, you know, whereas in other sports, it feels as if they've always been ahead of us, for someone who's so close to the sports. Tell us about the journey of tennis within that. Are we behind? are we catching up? Where does tennis fit into that compared to other sports?

Dr Mark Kovacs  32:28

Yeah, it's a great question. So when people talk on data, a lot of the time I think they're talking on data analytics, strategy, stuff like that. And that world has improved a lot. But it's also become very messy, unfortunately, because people are over utilizing very small data sets to make gross generalizations. And May in you seeing it on tour, many players are so indecisive about their own strategy, because they're thinking about too much of what's happening down the other end of the court. And so they're trying to change gameplan every every match, sometimes, instead of figuring out what their best game plan is. So I'm seeing it a lot more with players. And you see a lot of players have very up and down results, much of it, I think has to do that, that they're changing their own strategy too much. And they may not have the skill set to do that. They you know, their game plan A is probably their best chance of succeeding against most players at the highest level. And there may be a tweak here and there, okay, you may throw in a slice every now and then. Or you may do something slightly different, but you're not completely if your best shot is backhand crosscourt, you're not going to start hitting every back hand down the line, which some players are trying to do. So I think there's a there's a risk there of over using data that is inaccurate, meaning that the accuracy of it may be okay for a small period, but you're generalizing it way past what the data was collected for. And that's a big concern. From a standpoint of video and say, biomechanics. We're still pretty far behind. I do a lot in baseball, I do a lot in basketball, and quite a bit in soccer. And in in baseball, and golf, obviously, they do a lot of video and biomechanics. Part of the reason is you're not really moving in golf and in baseball, hitting and pitching. You're very standard. So it's kind of like the serve, you can do a lot more collection. And you can do a lot more accuracy on what are fundamentals and what is style. Unfortunately, it's really hard to do that on groundstrokes. Well, because every ball is different. You're reacting to high balls, low balls, spin speed, all that. So that's why there's so many different techniques out there. But the biggest thing is we got to focus on the fundamentals, which are consistent and then the style is what lets everyone do their thing. But to go back to your general question is, is tennis behind tennis is definitely behind for a few reasons. One, that technology companies have had a hard time figuring out how to get into tennis and get it done, right, you've seen a ton of technology companies dip their toe in the sport. And then they really feel like there's a, there's a lot of barriers to entry coaches, many times aren't first users first adopters, there's a lot of negativity or, you know, they're just insecure many times because they're not familiar with it. So they don't, you know, embrace it. You know, historically, tennis is an older sport. So there's a lot of older, older people involved in leadership in the big organizations, and many of them aren't as familiar with it. So that's starting to change, you're starting to get younger people, people that are used to using their phone every day and used to using technology every day, and making more decisions. So progress has definitely been made. But there's also a lot of crap out there and caution people to make sure if you're looking at different technologies, that you make sure it's validated, and it's reliable, those are the two biggest things that you need to measure what it's supposed to measure, first off, and that it is reliable meaning from day to day, you get the same results. If the data is bad, then your decision making is going to be really bad. And

Daniel Kiernan  36:30

Having you on there's so many bits, I'd love to I'm gonna have to do, we're gonna have to do like a five part series or something. But otherwise, it's going to be too long. So I want to delve into the serve. And I think it's, I think the surf is a great place for us to look, you talk about style versus fundamentals. And I definitely want to get into that a little bit. I'd like to start at the pro level, because I think it's it's a, it's the level where you would have spent your most time naturally and where more time more research goes goes into. And as the saying goes, people don't care about what you know, until they know how much you care. You know, and getting that getting that buy in, in you. You've worked with, with a lot, a lot of pro players, a lot of a lot of players that are very high at a very high level. How to start off with how do you how do you go about getting the buy in from from that type of player? Let's take a John Isner as an example.

Dr Mark Kovacs  37:36

Yeah, I mean, from all the players standpoint, I've never been the tennis coach, I think that's been the best way I've approached it. Yeah, I've got a good tennis background and knowledge. But I always work alongside their coach. And so I'm an advisor, consultant, somewhat something in that role. So I'm there to support the team. And that's always been sort of my role in all these situations is how do we tweak little things that can help these great athletes because anyone who's playing top 100, in the world tennis has got there for a reason, they've got a skill set that is above and beyond pretty much everyone else in the world. So you have to be really careful about over changing as well. And I've seen that happen. I've heard that from other sports, baseball, basketball, things like that, they really concerned about major changes, because you don't want to lose someone's natural sort of swing, they say, which is something true in tennis, if someone's 20 years old, 22, whatever it is, you're probably not doing a serve reconstruction, you're not completely changing everything they've done, their bodies adapt to that motion. It may not be perfect in the textbook definition, but it sort of works for them, and they've adapted to it. So most of what we do is we look at cause and effect. So if the, you know, if the effect is, hey, they miss a lot of serves in the net, or if they're speed is say four miles an hour less than what we think it should be. And there's a technical reason for that we try to, you know, highlight where that comes from, is a lack of foot engagement into the ground, Is it lack of hip rotation? Is it something with the Rask spine, where they don't extend effectively, is their range of motion, a problem in their internal rotation, so when they make contact, they don't get full long axis rotation, which basically means they don't get optimum pronation is what a lot of coaches use the term, but it's a lot more than just pronation. So there's those types of things that you try to nail in on as to what is the cause? And many times coaches will say, well, the collapsing of contact or, you know, their contact point is too low or they're too you know, they're falling to the left all the normal things that people see visually, but they don't exactly know what caused it. So we always try to figure out what the cause is. And that's usually how you get the buy in is because you say, hey, everyone knows you're not hitting the serve well, you miss it, or your percentages are low, or there's something going on that your miles per hour or your RPM, your second serve aren't high enough. Let's go and find the cause. And the buy in is usually, hey, we're trying to come to this with some data. It's not let's just try something. And I think one of the biggest challenges I have is, a lot of coaches, a lot of players, they tinker and they try stuff without great justification, hey, this player did it. Well, why don't we try that foot stance? Or this player? Did it well, with a higher toss or a lower toss? And you're like, Yeah, but what are you actually trying to work on. And I think that's where you get the buy in is you say, we've got a very precise reason for doing what we're doing. And we're not going to change anything, unless we have a great justification to do it. And it few, I always say, if you don't feel an immediate improvement at that level, within about 10 says it's the wrong fix. From a technical standpoint, because they're such great athletes, they have good serves already, because they're at a certain level. If they don't feel an immediate improvement, it's not you're trying to work on the wrong thing. Or physically, they can't do it. And that's where we spend a lot of time physically saying, Hey, we may want you to turn more, or we may want you to get more range of motion here. But you don't have the ability physically right now. So we do a lot of physical screening and assessment to analyze that to make sure that the coach hasn't been saying the right thing all along but the player can't do it. So the coaches love to hear when I say that, they're like, hey, you've been saying the right thing the entire time, the athlete just can't do it, right? It gets physically don't have the mobility or the strength to do what you're asking him to do. Because you've seen another player do that so well. That's why it's really hard to compare athletes to each other. Because their strength levels are different. Their mobility levels are different. And that's where I think a lot of coaches run into trouble. They say we want to use Sampras as a guide for us. I mean, people don't realize Pet was one of the most mobile guys on the planet, his elbows when he puts his arms behind him would touch without anyone helping II, so you can't get in the ranges that he got in. So it's really, really important that people understand that.

Daniel Kiernan  42:38

The objectiveness I love, I love it to bits. So I have to pick up on one one point that you made around the miles per hour or the speed that it should be. So how do you make that objective? How, how can you if you're working with Isner who's serving at 138, and you think he should be serving at 145? How are you calculating the should be?

Dr Mark Kovacs  43:09

Yeah, so that comes into a couple of things. One, we take it into account a strength and height relationship? And then do they have the parameters, meaning that if they have great long axis rotation, which is a big one, do they have great thoracic extension? Do they have great single leg strength on the back leg, all those factors correlate with serve speed. And if they are pretty good at all those and their serve speed is below where we estimate it should be. There's a technical issue normally, if all those areas are a little weak, or a little below where they should be, then it's easy to increase speed or velocity without doing anything differently. Technically, we just fix those things physically. So you sort of have an estimate, you may be off by a mile or two, but you sort of you have a clear defined range where these athletes should be able to go, and then it comes into Okay, now that you can easily hit that serve at say three or four or five miles an hour harder. Now it's an accuracy question is have you given up any accuracy because as we know, hitting it harder and not getting it in or hitting it harder and missing your spot by you know, a foot is a big deal at that level, just because you hit a harder right into the guide strike zone. That doesn't help you I'd rather you hit it slower and hit it on the line than he did a foot and a half inside the line where it goes lightning strikes. So you have to find that balance with the athlete. And then the mental side comes into it is a huge aspect. What type of server are they? Are they a clock server? Are they a ace, go go for the you know, the wind type server or are they hey, I want to get confident I want to high service percentage hitting my spots, making sure I don't put myself under extreme Pressure on second serve. And that changes a lot. Obviously, the best servers have a service mindset of every service and as if they're thinking through it, or it's an unreturnable of some sort. That's usually the mindset. I mean, you know, anyone saw, you know, when when there's certain servers out there that, you know, when they feeling it, that you're in trouble, because the only way they're losing matches is if something unlucky, it usually happens. So like, Isner's an example, he's a pretty clutch server, you know, Nick Kyrgios at his best when he's focused is one of those types of servers, eo is these type of guys that that's their mindset is go up there and control the environment. Most players don't have that mindset, mainly because they don't have the serve confidence. So they have to play around and play a smarter strategy. on the women's side, for example, you know, you have a lot of players, that could be great servers from a standpoint of strategy. But for whatever reason, they don't go to their strengths enough. And I'm really excited to see that in the next few years, with some of the servers that will become super dominant. 20 Plus aces, the game on the women's side, I think is going to become a little, you know, 15 to 25, Aces a game match should be sort of starting to become more and more common.

Daniel Kiernan  46:26

I think there's a, there's a few points, I'm fascinated by the subject. And my first one I have to ask because it's in my head, who has, in your opinion, the best, the best biomechanical, sir, from a bio biomechanical standpoint. Yeah,

Dr Mark Kovacs  46:44

I mean, from a from a pure coil and load sampras's Right up there, if you walk how effortless his entire motion is, and how well he loads. It's right there. John isn't as right, right up there as well. On the women's side, you know, Serena has got a great serve. She, she does a lot of things, right. She could even have a slightly better serve, if you can believe it. From a speed standpoint, there's a couple things that if you get a little more coil, she would be even better. Then you got Sam Stosur who was phenomenal. So yeah, so it's one of those things where you've got to look at, there's a few fundamentals that all the good service do. It's just physically, there's certain athletes that are built to serve. And it's just like Michael Phelps in swimming, or Usain Bolt in sprinting, they built for that environment, they have longer arms, longer legs, longer hands for Phelps, than anyone else. They've got the biomech in, you know, they've got the genetics to be able to do certain things. With optimum technique. There's plenty of players that have great genetics and terrible technique, plenty of players that have really good technique, they just don't have the physical gifts to optimize that technique. I mean, we all see it, you can go down to any Challenger and look and say, Hey, that kid's got a great surf, technically, but he hits it 150 miles an hour, and he can't break in it. And that's, you know, part of the reason there is either physically is a mess, which is many times the case doesn't have the strength doesn't have the range of motion doesn't have the mobility, if his technique is good, and he's only hitting a serve at 115 miles an hour. That's a sign that there's some physical stuff that can be improved. And

Daniel Kiernan  48:33

I think the mental side that you talk about, this also fascinates me why women serve slower. Now I'm sure there's a there's a physical element to that. But is that also partly because we've all made our minds up that women can't serve as well as men. So So then there isn't that intention to go out and really develop these these big serves? Like you're saying, hopefully, in a few years time, we'll have females on the tour that are regularly hitting 15, 20 aces a match. What What are purely from an objective standpoint? Why is it that the women don't serve as big as the men? And and is there big room for improvement there?

Dr Mark Kovacs  49:19

Yeah, so it's a great discussion, we talk about this a lot. And it's, it's, it's mainly a conditioning from a young age perspective, at a young age, even on the guy side, you know, you're trying to get the serve, you know, get the serve in the box, start the point, you know, figure it out. And as they get older, you know, a lot of the time, it never changes, you sort of keep that same mindset of get the serving, and keep going. And for whatever reason, guys have changed that over time. You know, most of the time they tried to hit aces. They, they liked the response from that, and they're encouraged to do that. From a young age, I mean, think about it, if you're a coach listening, how many times have you said, you're going to have a big serve, we're going to develop the big serve, that's going to be your game, you don't hear that many coaches talk to a 12 year old female the same way. And they should, there's no reason that a female can't serve, relatively speaking, as well, as a guy. Obviously, there are some some differences in sometimes height, but sometimes not. We know a lot of tall females that are taller than guys. So height plays a role. It's one of the biggest predictors of first read. So that does make a difference. Strength is a component of it. But if if females are training, right, of course, they can get really strong in the right areas, and can significantly contribute to that. So I always go the opposite of say, We it's, it's not the players fault, most of the time, it's the environment that they've grown up in, and it's just become accepted. There's no reason that females can't serve. Really, really hard, can't serve, and high percentages as well, is a big issue on on the WTA Tour. So percentages are lower. So why would serve percentages be lower if serve speeds are lower. So that's something again, goes into the mental side, potentially. And it also if you look at it goes into technically, I mean, we've done some studies comparing the top 100 ATP and WTA players, and about 20% 20 to 25% of the ATP, don't heat the certain consistent variables on the SERP positioning wise biomechanically, whereas over 70%, Miss on the WTA side, so there's a there's a big technical difference between male and females just objectively, but they every female player I've ever worked with, if you work with a minor, they can easily make the adjustment. It's not that they can't do it. It's just either they haven't worked on it, or it hasn't been encouraged, or it's not part of the strategy. And I hear this a lot in high level juniors and colleagues a lot. Yeah, I'm not going to work on the kick serve, we're just going to hit a slice. Second, sir. So what you've already done is put this negative thought, or this can't do attitude into someone, which I think is a real shame. And that happens way too much. There's no reason every female can hear the kick serve anyone who says they shouldn't or can't get a kick serve. I just haven't seen it in 20, nearly 20 years of doing this, you can get any person to hit a kick serve pretty quickly if you train it the right way.

Daniel Kiernan  52:39

Powerful. And something I hope I hope coaches out there are taken on board, for sure. And as as we move then down into into the younger, the younger age age groups. And I guess from a fundamental standpoint, when people start whether it's mini tennis at six or seven, you know, through to 12, 13 year olds, where where's your focus? You know what I know we've got our we've got the eight stages, which please, I'd love you to bring into the conversation. But where where's your focus? And then how, how does that then get progressed? If you are trying to develop the world's best serve, and you've got someone from age six through to age 26?

Dr Mark Kovacs  53:24

Yeah, it's a great question. So at the young age, you've got to get them enjoying the game. First and foremost, if you're too technical from day one, we got probably an issue. So I always say try to get the grip, somewhat, right. I know it's hard for a real true beginner to go straight to a continental. So a slight modified Continental, you know, maybe a little bit of an eastern forehand grip is okay, just don't get them straight into a full Western and having just start like that, that, to me brings in bad habits from day one. And they didn't know any better anyway. So if you get them started slightly of trying to focus on the right grip, and I agree, you don't want to get the legs in on day one that's really hard. For beginners, it's nearly impossible. So always just try to get a turn and hit. So let's get to turn turning the head and keep the legs on the ground and hit if you're going to serve. If you're going to throw obviously, we have a throwing series of progressions where your throw, and you're trying to train them to throw up, not straight out, which is there'll be important aspect of it. And always throw with your hips. A lot of people will teach shoulder and arm and that's all correct. But if they don't turn their hip, they're not getting that lower body engagement. And that's where we want to start with so you want to make sure that you're at least instilling these components at a young age. And then over time, you can bring the legs in when it's appropriate. What I say that is because we know we've all worked with those athletes that five sessions in they can do everything because great they they pick up information, they're good athletes, it's easy for them. Yeah. Don't say, Okay, we're going to wait another year before we introduced the legs for you, that would be stupid, and it wouldn't be good for the kid. But there are other kids that yeah, you may have to sit in this stage for six months to a year, as long as you can get the ball in the court, and you can get the points started at 678. You're not winning a lot of points on your server at that age. That's not the goal goal is to get the point started, and to try to teach beginner fundamentals that you can build off as the athletes ready, because as we know, the hardest part for a young kid is when they throw the ball up, their eyes look up, the head goes up, trying to stay in control of that is the hardest part of the serve. So that's always the most difficult aspect of it. And at a young age, I'm super happy for them not to serve a lot as well, I'd rather than stop points, feeding it, then try to have them serving at 678. With terrible technique. I think that's probably one of the biggest areas of problems for a lot of kids is they start with that technique. And then they don't try to change it until they're 1011 12. And then it becomes somewhat harder, because they've got bad grips. They've got terrible movements, things like that. And

Daniel Kiernan  56:17

In terms of that, just quickly take us through the the eight stages on the serve. And I'm sure it does depend on the athlete. But where would you say the one or two key focuses need to be at different stages of development?

Dr Mark Kovacs  56:34

Yeah, so this whole project came about from baseball, actually, I was doing some work with tight Allen Bakker who most of you should know, if you don't, he had a tenant in basically medical services for the ATP. And he's one of the best shoulder rehab guys in the sport. Pretty much every pro that has a shoulder problem goes to him. But we were talking about this because he's been doing a lot in baseball for a long, long time as well. And they've had this model of pitching for 30 years, pretty much all the researchers use, and everyone uses to analyze, pitching technique in baseball, and tennis never had this really everyone would have these phases and combinations. And I saw something there was a 32 stages to the surf at one point, which was not incorrect, it was just too long. So we basically tried to mimic it off baseball as much as we could and get the right anatomical positions. So it's very precise on where the stages occur in picture form. So they're snapshots in time, and you base it off of video. So it's pretty simple. It's the start how they set up, it's the release, which is the ball toss. And then it's loading, which is lower body loading. And then you have what's called cocking, which comes from baseball, it's a it's a, it's a technical term that's used, but it's the max external rotation of the shoulder. So it's the tip of the racket, ideally pointing down to the ground. So it's the last stage of you storing energy in the upper body before you release it. And then you get acceleration. So starting to move up towards the ball, then you get contact, which is where a lot of people focus on for meets string, then you have deceleration or your arm starts to have to slow down. And then you have the finish, which is when your foot lands on the ground after the jump. So pretty straightforward. Every server goes through those eight stages. So every single point of that is hit by every person serves a tennis ball, some doorway better than others. And that's what we try to sort of make sure that people focus on. Going back to your question about the most important. So there's a couple of one is the release, obviously, both eyes, position, photos, location, Portage consistency is so important. And then the second big one is the release is the loading stage, which is stage three. If you get two and three, right, you can still screw it up, but it's a lot harder to screw up. Most people look at contact, and that's where they say, Well, that's the most important it sort of is. But you can't change contact, you have to change something earlier to impact contact.

Daniel Kiernan  59:13

At what age and stage would you introduce loading on the surface? Oh,

Dr Mark Kovacs  59:19

it's a great question. You want to do it when the athlete can comfortably release the ball. So the ball toss is somewhat consistent. So I get a consistent ball does and that they have that ability to actually jump and land in a stable way, meaning that they have control over their head. So it's not a real age so much. It's more can the athlete do it? The athlete, if you do 10 serves and the athlete can't do it consistently at all. It's probably too well. You know, they have to be able to jump and coordinate in what we're saying. There's no issue about jumping somebody will say the wall They're not strong enough, it's not a strength issue, it's coordination issue. Every six, seven year old, clean jump, and land every seven year old plays on, you know, equipment in the park, you know, they can do the movement from a physical standpoint of the lower body, there's no issue there. It's Kevin, a coordinator with the head with the ball toss with the turn. That's hard. That's hard for an adult. I mean, we see it on tour, the players struggle to sync all those movements. So I always say, don't over teach a skill that the athletes not ready for. Because you're just wasting your time and the athletes getting frustrated. So it's a lose, lose, you know, you have to train, but you may do five or 10 searches every couple days, just to introduce it, show them the feeling, let them practice at home a little bit. But then when it comes down to making contact and playing points and doing all that, give them success. If we don't have success with a young kid, they're going to get really frustrated and more more often than not, they're going to move away from the sport and pick up something that's easier for them.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:07

And at that young age, is there any specific age tools, different things that you would use to help to help with that development?

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:01:17

Yeah, so we do a lot of throwing progressions, but throwing the right way, I see a lot of throwing drills out there, but you got to make sure that it's tennis specific, and it's serving specific. So we use a small modified American football is a really good tool, because it tells you whether they're sort of doing it right or not. Because if you throw a small American football and it doesn't spin the right way, you know, they're not kind of throwing it right, they don't have the right load the right turn the right release, the benefit of throwing a football is it forces you to get the right release, which is a big part of serving. So that's one. The other is if you've got all rackets, we do some old racket tossing where we'll throw for distance, because throwing a racket one, it gives you the sense of the movement, because you have to get the racket back in the same position. And then you throw it for distance. So we usually go on grass, and we'll get some old old rackets that you know, doesn't even have to be strung, because the old rackets and you just haven't throw for distance. And it's a really good exercise. They like doing it. Just don't do too many reps. That's the problem. The reason being is the reason we don't have as many shoulder problems as say, baseball pitchers or elbow problems is because the racket helps us decelerate. To enroll it. If you throw the racket you don't actually decelerate as smoothly because you don't have the weight anymore, you have to decelerate much faster, because the arm has released the implement. So we usually do about no more than about 10 to 20 of most of those rackets was

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:53

already good. I because I'm conscious of time, I can feel my questions coming in my head thick and fast. But I'm gonna move us into the last couple of questions. I would love to get you on again, I would love to look at the movement side of the sport a little bit more. You know, I really would, but I think it's too much information for us to, to put into one into one episode. So tennis as a whole? It's a question I asked a lot of a lot of my guests, you know, is it in a good place? Is it not in a good place? You know, where? Where does the sport go? Next? We're battling against the world of Netflix, Xbox, you know, this whole new Tik Tok world that these kids are in? From your lens? Where do you see tennis? And and what comes next for tennis?

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:03:46

Yeah, so I mean, as we know, the whole pandemic help tennis, probably more than any association group leader has ever done for the sport in the last 30 years. It's increased participation substantially, I think all around the world, but it's made a huge impact. So there's a whole new generation of players that have picked up the sport in the last two years. The big question now is how do you maximize that? What are the opportunities for those players, you know, from a competitive environment for sure. That sort of is there for the super competitive, but there's a lot of people that aren't competitive. And I don't think tennis does a very good job for players that want to play socially, without a heavy competitive angle to it. So more opportunities need to be on the social side of playing for fitness, playing for fun playing for health and playing to be around their peers. So that's an area of opportunity. And that's more at the club level at the at the recreational level, and you're seeing it in all these other Racquet Sports kicking in that are a little less competitive, that are more socially based in tennis has to be real. Careful of that, because it's taking a piece of the pie may only be one or two or 3% a year. But over 10 years, that's a third of your your group of people that buy rackets that buy balls that watch tennis on TV. So that's a big area of opportunity, but also a big area of risk. From a pro level, there's a lot of problems, obviously, I think everyone sees that you've got issues with, like, in society, you've got the top players making a lot which they deserve, because they draw the tickets. But how do you increase the ability for players to stay in the sport and make it to the top. So there needs to be, I think, more regional tours, where you can really do a better job of promoting your homegrown talent. In your areas where people would actually care more about those players, it's really hard for a small tournament to promote someone from way across the globe, that doesn't speak their language that doesn't have any connection to that city that's hosting the event. Whereas if you had more regional tours, you could really make these people between 102 50 in the world, mini stars in their home communities. And I think there's a need for that, that would really, really help. And then they sort of feed in it is the challenge of tour as it's currently designed. But it's regionalised. And you make those people, many celebrities more so because right now, it's really hard. Most of those events are underfunded, it's nearly impossible to make money off those events, because there's no draws. And you've got to create the celebrity and the star power at those events. Because we all know that levels just as good as what we see on TV. They're the same players, many weeks, they just go from one event to the next. But no one knows him yet, because they're young. So that's a huge opportunity for the sport. But like everything else that takes leadership, and requires people to really see the future of where it's going, we have to incorporate technology into the broadcast better. Unfortunately, commentary hasn't progressed in 30 years. And I think commentary needs to be completely different. In my mind, you need to provide relevant stats presented the right way that people can understand what's going on better, because most recreational fans don't understand tennis, they don't understand the intricacies of it, you have to have someone explain this person in here, because they're trying to open up the court get at this person's weakness over here. And you can show that in different ways. They need big screens with sort of one minute educational sessions about what has happened in those points and why other sports are doing that a lot more. Tennis is just a little a little behind on that aspect. And I think there's a huge opportunity there to get more people watching because we do we need more people watching the big events, the big events, celebrities, events, they place to be in place to be seen, and they're going to do fine. It's those mid range and lower level events that are really struggling and they need the support right now.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:11

Well, you don't have a lot going on at the core of X Institute mark. So maybe this could be another another little strand to to what you guys do. And before we go to our quick fire round at the very end, what's what's your goals, your your motivations, you know, you've you've been highly, highly successful over the last 20 years since our paths crossed in our college days. And a massive well done on that. Thank you for all that you're doing in the tennis industry. But how do you keep your motivation? Where does where does that go next? How do we not lose you to all of those other sports that I'm sure are clamoring for your? For your time as well? Yeah, no, I

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:09:00

mean, the last two years, I was working full time pretty much in the NBA and was working with the Cleveland Cavaliers traveling with the team the full the full experience there. And that was great because it highlights the other sports you learn a lot. You've been around a lot of coaches that have a very different background, lot of athletes that, you know, most people think the NBA as some of the best athletes in the world and they definitely do. But they also have a lot of the same challenges that any athlete has. You know, they've got some physical gifts that make him great, but it also creates some challenges you have to work through. So from a tennis standpoint, ya know, just doing a lot of projects that I like with people I like and you know, helping a lot of players behind the scenes. You know, I try to keep my head down with the stuff I do with the players. That's you know, usually pretty quiet. You know, there. There's a lot of players in tennis doing a lot in baseball right now, as well. So it's it's fun, you know, about half the days usually spent with athletes, and about half the days spent on research, development, working in sport technology and things like that. Sometimes you take on too many pieces. And that's always the big challenge is prioritizing, just like you and all the things you've got going on, you sort of got to prioritize. And a lot of the time it comes down to who, from an athlete standpoint wants to be the best. And that's usually who I gravitate to. I like working with everyone but they have to have a little desire there to do something that's really hard to do. And a willing to put the work in because as we know, none of this happens without work.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:43

Your passion and enthusiasm shine through and and I love it. It's been a, it's been a real pleasure for me to have a little piece of your time. I know that the listeners will love it. You know, make sure if you have listened to it, listen to it again, get your notepads out. There's a whole lot of learnings in there. But if you don't mind, we never have an episode without our quick fire round. It can be as quick as you want it to be. Are you ready? Yes,

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:11:14

I'm ready.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:16

What does control the controllables mean to you?

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:11:22

Focus on what's in front of you. It's the six inches in front of your face. That's the line I've always used. It's from a movie. It's the best line ever. Al Pacino. Yes, yeah. All you can do is the six inches in front of your face.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:35

Any Given Sunday. Yep. Great movie. Serve or Return.

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:11:42

Sir.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:47

Your favorite Grand Slam?

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:11:49

That's tough. That I mean, that's really hard. Growing up was Wimbledon. And I think it's changed a little bit. I really really liked the US Open the vibe, the atmosphere, the crowd. It's just It's just different. Now the US Open probably.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:15

I thought you were gonna say the Australian Open after all of that.

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:12:20

Australian Open is great as well. That's the hard part. They're also unique. That's what makes the sport so great.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:26

They're amazing. We're very lucky to have them all. ATP Cup or Davis Cup.

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:12:32

Davis Cup. US General Davis Cup, but I really don't know what I don't know what it is. Now. It's really confusing. Now. It is

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:41

Massively so, US college or not?

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:12:45

It depends on who we're talking about. But for the masses. Yes. It's the it's the most obvious best option forthe largest number.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:54

Doubles or singles.

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:12:56

Great question. I mean, we need context of this. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:00

you can add to context. This doesn't have to be a quick fire if you want.

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:13:05

Yeah, I mean, I would say if you had to pick, I think people actually like watching doubles better than watching singles. If people were honest, he just don't get exposed to the great greatest players playing enough doubles. So I would say doubles. Singles is the best test of the best tennis players. I

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:27

agree, medical timeout or not.

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:13:30

So my thinking on that is you get in a three set match, you get two timeouts for whatever reason you want and that's it. And you get three and a five set match and that's it, use them whenever you want. For whatever reason, there is no medical timeout anymore, unless it's an emergency situation. But then you still got to use one of those timeouts. Let's say someone runs into a nap post, they would have to use a timeout to get treatment that takes out all the all the negotiating all of that is to say listen, if you need more than two in a three set match, you probably shouldn't be playing the match.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:06

Absolutely. Roger or Rafa. It's

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:14:10

so unfair to ask that question. I mean, they're both so great. But I think you gotta just you gotta say Roger a little bit just because of the transcends the sport just a little bit more than referred us. You're

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:23

not gonna like the next question. Serena or Venus.

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:14:28

I mean, yet it to me, it's different tennis wise, Serena. Everything else Venus has so much stuff that she does that people don't realize, of course, that she impacts the Serena does as well. But they get so different. It's It's tough. It's tough to but if you talk in tennis, Serena, when most people non tennis talk tennis they always ask me about Serena.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:53

What's one rule change you would have in tennis?

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:14:58

Yeah, it's a good one. I mean, I think getting rid of the NEC code on service, I think is one that could be done pretty quickly. But it doesn't make that much of a difference. Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure. I mean, I think we know that tennis is a little long. So how do you shorten it? A big rule change would be one, sir. That would be a huge rule change. And I think there should be some tournaments that do that some of the 250s they should play around with a, you know, the slam shouldn't mess with it. slams are great with what they have, they shouldn't mess with it. But some of these smaller events that aren't profitable right now. They have the ability to do some stuff. I think a one surf event would be really, really good. It would speed up play. It would be really interesting to watch how they decide on how they surf, things like that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:51

And who should our next guest be on control the controllables

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:15:56

I picked someone from another sport. I don't know how many people you've reached from other sports to speak, but I think it would be good to get a perspective of a coach from a another individual sport, let's say a golf or something like that. That would be really good. Jason Bohn, he's, he's been 16 year PGA professional won a few tournaments. Funny guy, so I could definitely introduce, introduce him if your audience would like it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:23

Absolutely. I'll, I'll be in contact on that. Dr. Mark Kovacs, thank you so much for your for your time, brilliant to reconnect, it would have been nice to talk about our college days a little bit more. But maybe we'll do that when I come and see you at some point. I'll definitely get over. Keep up the great work. And thank you so much for your time.

Dr Mark Kovacs  1:16:44

No, I appreciate it. Always great catching up and keep up everything that you're doing. This is

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:49

Awesome. A big thank you to Mark for that. And what what brain what knowledge that man has incredible. I know I touched on it throughout the episode. But so many of us were still drinking beer not sure what we're going to do with our lives after we left college and he has gone on and just rock the world in his field. So a big well done. And thank you to Mark and as always about Vicki. Not next to me. Actually today, I've got her across a video call because I'm in Albania. Vicki is back in Spain. But welcome to the short champ the 2021 best tennis podcast at the sports Podcast Awards last week. Incredible eh

Victoria Kiernan  1:17:32

I know I still can't believe that I'm still smiling. It just well shocked and excited. I think I still can't can't believe we actually won.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:42

Also, you should be smiling because and I have to get it on record, the real stars of the show, as well as our guests, of course, the tireless work that you put in Vicki, but also Dennis, Matt and Faye behind the scenes to make me sound better than I actually do to get the podcast out there far and wide. And you guys thoroughly deserve this award. So a big, big well done from me to you, and and to the rest of the crew as well. And if you are new to the podcast on the back of seeing us as the best tennis podcast, I hope this first episode has lived up to what you expected. You have another 157 to go and listen to, if you are someone who's been with us from the beginning, as always a big thank you a big, big thank you to you, thank you for your loyal following, your support. And we will continue I promise to keep bringing lots of lots of amazing guests to you.

Victoria Kiernan  1:18:42

And also can we say if you did take the time out of your day to vote for us a massive thank you. I suspect it was probably quite a bit of a close contest in the tennis category. So we're really excited. Thank you. And actually, we watched the whole Sports Podcast Awards because we were right at the very end and there were some amazing, amazing sports podcasts involved. So definitely worth checking out some of the other ones and also I can't not mention you being a bit of a billboard sensation as well off the back of this.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:16

Well, when I saw that poster, we'll have to post the pictures in the show notes. Everybody that's been saying you must have photoshopped that you must have Photoshop that and like I said to somebody online, I said you're giving me way too much credit if you think I have the ability to Photoshop that onto the M62 Billboard. So yeah, I just just a really cool few days are really, really, really nice for having everyone involved with Control the Controllables to get that level of recognition. But ultimately, you know, as as we've said earlier, lots of amazing podcasts out there. We will keep our heads down. We'll keep working working to bring the best possible episodes and guests to you over the next few weeks and months. And moving on to, we've talked enough about the Podcast Awards show for now. So moving on to our fabulous, amazing guest, an old college buddy of mine, Mark Kovacs, a serious, serious brain on him, someone who has just gone on and learn so much about the human body, link that to elite sport, lots of different topics, but one that certainly jumped to mind for me, Vicki, and this also hits home a little bit, being in Albania, and under 12 tournament, and watching the boys and watching the girls. They're both hitting the ball, the same, possibly, the girls are hitting the ball harder. I don't particularly see the boy serving any harder. And the fact that he said he thinks the women can pretty much serve as hard as the men, or an equally hit as bigger kick serve as the man as well. What did you think about that one?

Victoria Kiernan  1:20:58

I was like, yes, when he was talking about we can hit it as hard costs, we can the kicks have, I have never come across a kick serve. Playing any female ever, like I have playing a man. I've just never ever seen it in my time, to the point where we would play. And I would prefer to return your first serve. The minute I had to try and get my head round your kick serve or God just horrendous, I would never be able to hit that same serve. But like you said, it was really interesting is that because I have not been taught it?

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:40

I think I think I think it's a little one that I disagree with. It's not easy to disagree with the serve doctor. But I think there will be a few people out there that will disagree with that. Because I think I think the reality it's like hitting a golf shot, you know, the reality is, you know, the, the male body is going to hit the ball a little bit further than the female body with strength. But what I do agree with is, is this whole concept, and I actually don't just want to make it a male female thing, I actually see it a little bit in Spain as well, you know, with the, with the young boys and girls, the service kind of taught as a starting point of the point, not necessarily taught as someone who's trying to find the competitive advantage from the word go. And I do think they do think that by us opening our minds and teaching the younger girls that you can use your serve to be a competitive advantage. And to get up in the point will change the way that it's looked at. And I'm sure that the can be more than is squeezed out. Ironically, actually, he said he thinks there'll be lots of women that will serve 15 or 20 aces in a match. The next day, actually, I watched Naomi Osaka. And I think she said 13 or 14. So I think there is some girls out there women out there that are starting to take the service to the next level. And I agree with the bit about the intention. But I'm not sure I fully agree with a bit about the strength.

Victoria Kiernan  1:23:11

Do you teach the girls at the Academy the same kick serve that you would teach the boys?

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:19

Yes, From a young age, Absolutely. You know, and I think I think one thing that we do do actually at the academy is ultimately at a younger age, we're trying to we're trying to teach and give all of the tools in the toolbox from a very young age, whether it's a kick serve a drop shot, a slice of Smash, a backhand Smash, you know, all of these different coordination techniques and skills. I would say there's certain differences, you know, cop position, from quite a young age, maybe start talking a little bit more to the girls about playing inside the court playing a little higher up in the court. But I think about our 2009 to 2011 players, the person with the best serve is 100% a girl, you know, and she's got a she's got a brilliant kick serve as well, you know, so I would say yes, but it's going to be really important. And one big takeaway, I hope for coaches and players and parents is that the words that he used the way that we speak around girls and boys, but that are so influential to what they believe that they can do. And we need to keep pushing them keep making people believe that they're able to do things that maybe traditionally we've been told that they can't and I think that was a brilliant message that was given by by Mark throughout the episode.

Victoria Kiernan  1:24:46

I like how you broke it down actually into the age groups when talking about the serve from pros all the way down to minis and how interesting when he was talking about the pros about how if they didn't see an improvement after 10 serves, then it wasn't right

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:01

Loved it. Loved it, I think, I think listening to someone who has so much authority, you know, he's worked with I know he's worked with Oplelka as well worked Isner, potentially two of the biggest serves in the game. And, and I loved it. Because ultimately, buy in is massive. And if you're, you're, you're at that end of the game where you're trying to get these real small marginal gains, then they will, they'll feel it. If they're not feeling a difference within the first few serves. You haven't got their buy in, you know, if they all feeling a difference, then it's fair game. Yeah, you've got an open mind now. And you can really impact I think, where I'd be a little bit careful with that would be around a youngster, you know, because I think the youngsters will typically we can use our boys, this example, feels horrible. Yeah, but for you to have a good set and 510 years, you've got to go through the feeling of horrible to change a mechanic within your throwing action as an as an example. But I thought that was a really nice, interesting point. Something that I'm not sure how much coaches have thought about that. I also have to say, I quite liked the way he positioned himself. And sometimes that positioning of being a consultant, there's less pressure, you're coming in to have this special little magic dust. And you could argue there's more pressure, but it's not the day to day grind. So if somebody is asking for Dr. Mark Kovacs to come in, they're already feeling like they need, they need that special help. So he's coming in with a real chance to make a difference already. And I thought that was brilliant. And I know you mentioned as well, Vicki, the around the data, we spoke a lot about the data. And there's there's so much data out there. It's a buzzword within the sports right now. And how he how he talked about just being careful not to not to just keep changing the match plans too much. And people are almost reliant so much on the data, that they're not putting that little feel into the plan, understanding what the player's strengths and weaknesses are, and sometimes overanalyzing what they're seeing. Yeah,

Victoria Kiernan  1:27:14

There was so much to take away from that episode, I think definitely a notepad episode for everyone. And if you haven't had a chance to listen to last week's episode, it was a really interesting one. We spoke to Dave pilgrim who's a betting expert about the relationship between tennis and the gambling industry. And I had a bit of a rant at the end because I have some beef with turning on the television and seeing sports personalities, footballers. Social media stars, kind of promoting gambling in their adverts, and woke up this morning actually sent the article to Ugandan. No, it's actually been banned now. So gambling and betting companies and not able to use all these people to promote their companies, which is one of the things I was ranting on about last night. So weird, weird timing, but I think a really good move.

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:03

We had timing while we just finding out the power of Vic Elans voice you know, I mean, like that, you know, you speak and the authorities action, you know, and this is

Victoria Kiernan  1:28:18

Oh, god, is that what you're saying? Well,

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:20

If there's any, if there's any big concepts that you want to change out there, guys, you know, make sure they come through Control the Controllables get Vicki on your side, but no, I think absolutely right. I agree with you on that point. And I think it is right you know, it's it's been right like you said in last week's episode was the same way it's the same with drinking is the same with cigarettes. And ultimately, yes, the betting industry needs to be there for tennis right now the betting industry is there for entertainment purposes. But the betting industry also cost people lives. And we it has to be taken very seriously. So if that's been promoted by our big stars, then I don't think that could ever be ever be correct. And and now that they're taking that away, I think that will just become the norm and we will all accept that but completely agree. Great episode fairplay to Dave for coming on. Lots more good episodes coming up next week. Certainly you Brits out there you will know this young man Joshua Sapp Well, he was the under 14 Orange Bowl champion a few years ago was on for bright things big things in the sport. He really was never quite never quite made it through. He speak so openly saw in such a raw manner about that as the first time he's opened up to it. That will be next Tuesday's episode. It's a one not to miss. Many more amazing people coming on over the next few weeks. Big Love to you all out there. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables