French Open 2024 Review

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 224 of control the controllables and anybody that watched tennis balls been hit in Paris over the last couple of weeks know that we were in for a treat as always and eager Shi M Tech came out on top, fourth, French Open title and then can Carlito, call us out Kara's picked up his first Roland Garros title. We discussed that we discuss much more we get into some brilliant topics today as we review Roland Garros 2024 And I was delighted to have next to me the amazing panelists that have been there with me for for so long now in Freddy Nielsen Davis Cup captain for Denmark and the 2012 Wimbledon champion, Emily wobbly Smith been on the Pro two and now for 20 plus years, and brings a wealth of knowledge experience. And as always, we love having Emily with us. And then Calvin Betts and one of our new comers. But anyone that knows Calvin knows that he articulates himself well. He is not afraid to say what he thinks. And speaking of saying what he thinks Kieran Vorster Vaci in house s&c experts, but also someone who's worked at the top level of the game for many, many years. They're brilliant. I'm lucky I get to talk to them, and you're lucky that you get to listen to them. So I'm going to pass you over to our French Open 2024 Review panelists. So a big welcome to our Fred sharpen review panelists. Oh, you're doing great. Thanks. Thanks, Dan. Bazi look ready, you look ready for action?

01:59

I'm ready, mate. I've got a loaded gun here with many many questions.

Daniel Kiernan  02:03

I am starting actually, you guys all my amazing placement student Fergus, a massive apology for the abuse he got before the friendship and about the 97% win percentage record of Rafael Nadal. So do you guys want to apologize to him now? Or with wait till later?

02:26

There you go. Let's move on. Move on. After

Daniel Kiernan  02:29

that, we'll take that as an apology. The second one over the Freddy Nielsen I was Theodore do admit as he as he recovered you know Freddy Nielsen was sharing videos of his two year old three year old son who was devastated when you annex in the last two columns out girls in the semifinals and equally as devastated when the Italians lost the men's doubles final as well. How does he is he got over this yet? Fred?

Freddie Nielsen  02:56

He's he's kind of over it. Yeah, no, he just keeps asking when when Holga is playing again, but we were very surprised not so much by his reaction by but by the fact that he wasn't a Carlos fan. He keeps talking about Carlos but yeah, it was a big surprise. Really into his tennis. He's a madman and

Daniel Kiernan  03:10

who was he pulling forward the final Carlos Okay, so we had a happy with it where's the happy you only share the crying videos of the labor. And as we we have started it was it was only a few hours ago that obviously call us Alkire as became the French Open Men's Singles champion is third Grand Slam at the age of 21. But it's another Spaniard I want to start with because I think we saw enough from Rafael Nadal in the first round. We knew that it was a difficult draw but he's kind of kept his cards pretty close to his chest. He stopped he stopped the French Open playing a video our whole kind of tribute video to him. It seems like he's maybe got the bit between these two fuzzy Are we are we going to see more of Rafael Nadal won this year Wimbledon Olympics US Open. And is this actually going to be his final year on the tour? No,

04:06

it's gonna be his final year. I don't think he's going to play Wimbledon. He's been practicing on play just on social media. So I think he's gonna swerve the grass. And yeah, just give him give the Olympics crack and see how his body holds up. It seems his body's you know, I spoke to a player this this week he was in the gym who played him twice on the claim he he said it's quite incredible. I was body within a week was completely different.

Daniel Kiernan  04:32

Anybody think that we're going to see I guess the bit that I'm curious about is in Madrid. It was very much a goodbye. He was happy to the video was there. There was a big big event for him. Obviously they were going to do that at Roland Garros. And he told he told him he didn't want that at Roland Garros is anyone think that that means anything else? No,

04:52

I just think it's because he's one somebody slip is somebody was grand slam so he doesn't need a big things. He's the king. He's the King embarrassment. What else do you need?

Emily Webley-Smith  05:00

I think, yeah, he just didn't want he didn't want that. Maybe he remember

Calvin Betten  05:09

that on the day it happened. Apparently, he'd said that he didn't want it because he'd never said that it was going to be his last time. That's why because they'd set up they did have everything set up to do it. It wasn't, you know, that they had ordered the, the, the equipment was there, the props were there and everything. And he said, he'd never said for sure that it was going to be last time. That doesn't mean that he is going to play again. But apparently, he said that that was the reason he gave on site. So that was what people were saying. And a lot of people were saying, but I

05:39

can't see him play. I mean, he's, he's not in he's just getting better every week. You know, be like once a couple of matches, you know, and I just think it's yeah, you know, because last year Netflix are following him every weeks on that basis. And so I'm sure that's part of the deal in

Daniel Kiernan  05:55

Freddy we we've talked we love we love our our narratives in the tennis world. And I guess that's that's the way we get people attracted to sport and we've been talking for a long time about the changing of the guard seems like almost that middle crew that we put our money on this time there's better ABS the city passes, you know, the routes these players it seems like we're skipping a generation because, you know, as Rafa is making his way out Novak is certainly showing the signs of being on his way out. Obviously, Rogers gone viral in Kara Marie have gone. It seems like we skip that generation. And we've just just jump straight to our Khurasan center now. Yeah. And

Freddie Nielsen  06:35

I think for every tournament that goes by they, unfortunately with my eyes, because we would like to be in there. But I think like they're separating more and more from the pack looking more and more consistent. The best competitor this weekend, week out. I don't even think Carlos played his best tennis in Paris, and he still came out on top. He's unbelievable at finding a way you obviously has a lot help from the box, find his way. But nevertheless, that's part of the rules. Now, Cena did incredibly well competing at a high level coming with really poor preparation. So I think those two guys are our head now. That's why we're talking about it. And the reason why we're kind of skipping a generation is because the generation is has not really won anything important. So

Daniel Kiernan  07:17

my next topic and Emily to bring you in on this. It's an interesting conversation we had it's funny how we change our mind was stupid. Really, probably. I know. Freddy, you picked Alcatraz so well done to you. We'll get to your Dark Horse pics in a minute, man. I wouldn't be smiling that much. But it but but Alcatraz was picked but we felt that maybe people weren't weren't prepared. And you know, Alcatraz only played one clay court tournament running in, you know, he played he played in Madrid. Obviously we felt sinner was undercooked. We obviously jurkovich was, you know, is that maybe a smart way that these players are looking at it these top players that actually you know what? Let's save ourselves for the grand slams. That's what we're making our career on. And and maybe there's a little bit of a smokescreen of some injuries there, especially in the men's because it's the best of five sets. Yeah, perhaps

Emily Webley-Smith  08:11

I think we've spoken about it before for the Australian one where the results coming up to it haven't actually indicated the results of what's happened in this lab. But I think because they kind of disappeared and gone pretty quiet. With being healthy for the clay was more important than the other things of how many matches they'd had and everything else, because they'd obviously both won a lot previous to being hurt both Center and our grass. But I think perhaps we we missed the fact that yeah, they can go into that with the quality that they've got and that they were looking to peak for the French as opposed to do well in the tournament's leading up to it even though there's, you know, big events that you would thought they would be doing very well at which they have done in the past. I guess with a five better five, six, I don't play they you know, there's work as Kieran would vouch for I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done.

09:01

But I also think that like, I mean, obviously Alcatraz stumbled across going into Paris by only playing Madrid. But if he hadn't, all these players just want to play play, play, play play, right. And so I don't want to contradict because obviously preview was was about you can't read you can't replicate match fitness, which you can't.

Emily Webley-Smith  09:20

But yeah, but I think the difference is that they're getting when they do play, they're getting a lot of matches each week. Whereas if you're already getting one or two matches each week, it's a different it's a different composition. No,

09:30

no, don't. Don't just do that. But then then obviously we've gone that jock of itch in a job which then John geography Japan panics and played in Geneva and basically if you don't have you know, you don't have to, like you don't have to be that good. He could have gone to Paris and played a couple exhibitions. You know, he doesn't do it at Wimbledon. You know, he comes in, he only plays Wimbledon. The week before he plays a couple of betters hurling him go through the gears finds where you know where he is, and then obviously plays himself in the tournament. And you know, he's done well at Wimbledon the last couple of years. So, you know, when you look at, say, track and field and you know, obviously they, they train extremely hard in the offseason, but they will they will know how to periodized and how to taper going into the Olympics. So like a lot of these top athletes will, you know, do very little 10 days out, so they pay

Emily Webley-Smith  10:16

way less throughout the year as well. Yeah, no, exactly. This

10:19

is this is the same conversation that comes up time and time again the place like the other players over competing, you know, and then sometimes going into into big events. So cut that when it comes to the big event. They're just they're just they're burned out. I mean, that you know, you can have a conversation about this with eager against a soccer second round. Yeah, in my opinion, she had no business winning that match a soccer chart, and then we'll be talking about why she overcook coming in. He actually played too much in difference. And yeah, exactly, you know, and so the narrative changes. And I think, you know, like, I think like any of these things, you, you, you, you've got to create joy, like but when you get your luck, you've got to make it work. And so she She certainly did, and then I think was it next round? She She played 41 minutes on court.

Emily Webley-Smith  11:03

Do you think the French Karen, do you think because of the clay because nature of the clay and the longer points and the endurance for five sets and everything else on the clay? Do you think that that's more than any, is more important for people, for the men with the five sets not to be overcooked, physically, because of how physical the matches are on the clay in comparison.

11:24

So it's a good point. But I think, another competitor, I mean, this data is way out of date, but the compare the data of the US Open final and the clay final in 2002. And the points, the points length were exactly the same. So I think that I think there's there's still sort of method that this that myth about points are longer on clay, you know, you when you compare except, say from one extreme service to the other, you'll you'll be you'll be surprised. Yeah. And so, you know, I don't I don't think, you know, just I think that's that that's a myth within in our heads that Yeah, I mean, obviously conditioning, I think in general conditioning for you know, it'll be the same for the girls, if the girls are playing Best of three and then going into slam playing best of five. The condition like that conditioning for that is key because it big because for me when you're going into a slam way more mental for the minutes, that mental preparation, like I can put two sets of love up normally I'll be shaking hands and go to the locker room. You know, I'm still gonna play another set or I could be playing another three. So I think you could have taken those factors just

Daniel Kiernan  12:28

to stay on the stay on the men's final before we do want to jump into EGA and Calvin want to bring you in and maybe you can talk about the gang forehand in a minute

12:37

but no tells me why you really need to

Daniel Kiernan  12:40

be thought before we before we get to that is very did when Rome when Alcatraz was on the practice court or double blind golf, one of the two are playing golf. Granted is very, I've also played a lot more tennis. I think I heard. I didn't watch as much French Open as I would like to share. But I heard I think 23 and a half hours or something of tennis before, before the final or something along those lines. But when I did eventually get to watch the final I saw the last few games. It's very I've looked down physically, you know, how is that it? Was that a contributing factor that all of that tennis had caught up on him and maybe at the very end, we're talking about the smallest percentages in the biggest of matches? Did it finally catch up with them? And was it the freshness of Alcaraz that got them over the line? Okay,

13:27

this one up there? Was it was it? Was it the physical, the mental and the court case? Yeah, there's

Daniel Kiernan  13:33

a lot of things.

Calvin Betten  13:34

I don't think you I mean, I just thinking specifically in the last two sets, I got a feeling of like I said, I text my mate just after that just about five minutes before the match finish said that this is a real feeling of Alcatraz going right. Let's stop effing around now. Like, you know, let's you know, because I think at the end of the third set, we lost the end of the third set where he'd already been five to open he lost focus. And then he lost his serve again at five all he then should have broken back. He had a couple of breakpoints and missed a pretty straightforward return by a distance on one of them. And I think he was furious that he ended up losing that third set. And from that point on, I think he just brought his best tennis of the two weeks apart from you know, you could easily have been broken back in the in the fifth set with the dodgy umpire overrule and that kind of thing. But I struggled to say that in just in the fifth set, there's very have felt a physical drain on himself. And that's why he lost I mean, he certainly played a shorter match than than Alcatraz did against sinner two days before. So I don't think it was just that he was fit or I just think that ultra as is a much better player than zero, then that's what it comes down to that a forehand. Well, I mean, you know, we joke about it and this kind of thing, but even yesterday, the problem is is that and this is I think what's gonna stop at this very of winning a slam is that he can't put midcourt balls away. He's got a great surf, but if you return if you return the surf even with A decent defensive return and you can flow it back to three quarter lens where I'd call a mid court ball. It's not a shot ball, it's where I guess the server is on or just inside the baseline. The best players in the world can clean those up. And very, as much as we joke about his forehand cannot clean those up on his forehand. Okay,

Freddie Nielsen  15:17

I agree with you. I think that's what holds them back from winning the big slams into forehand forehand.

Calvin Betten  15:24

And it's not I think similarly. And I've said this a couple of times. For me. I also think it's similar to to Andy Murray at this stage. I actually think if Andy could clean four ends up on the on the mid core, you'd actually be fine at the minute, and I think he'd be winning matches and I think you'd probably go for another year. But you watch his matches, if specifically you watch last year at when Andy lost his Citypass in in Wimbledon, and he was, I think it was maybe the third set tie break. And in the tiebreaker itself, there must have been five points where he had midcourt balls on his forehand and either couldn't or wouldn't go to put them away. And I think that cut that cost in the set it cost in the match. It's probably cost him another extra year 18 months of his career, but it's the same with Zverev. He's got a great surf is backhands a beautiful shot there if he gets if he gets a midcourt on the backhand, he can rake it crosscourt for winners. But the problem is he can't put four underway and he's not a good enough volleyer to go, I'm going to push it into the corner and come in and put the volley away because players know that he's volleys again, at that level. pretty average, I went through, you know, we sort of we joked about before, and I went through the top 30 earlier on today and thought which of those players would would swap therefore hands for his reps? And I got a couple who were you would maybe say? It's, it's a coin flip? And the others definitely not 28 of the top 30, you would say 100% got better for ransomware. And some of them are not great for us. But you will say they're better than zeros.

Daniel Kiernan  16:52

Yeah. And I think we all agree on that. I think there was we've had a pleasure listening that we had a few jokes about this on our WhatsApp group, you know, but I think we all agree on that, to what, using and Friday, I'm gonna bring you in here as your tennis knowledge. What is it with his forehand? Is that a technical thing? Is it? Is it that he is got a mental block with it? Is he not physical enough? You know, what is it and what went wrong? Because I guess, if you've got a shot, there's a couple of things for me one, to have a fairly average shot, if we're saying that, and you can still get to number two in the world three in the world, it also shows, you know, tennis is more than just tennis shots, but to the importance of making sure that you do develop weapons, and you develop a strokes that are going to are going to stand the test of time at the top of the game as well, when you're younger.

Freddie Nielsen  17:45

Absolutely. And it's I think it's only it's not only that he likes it as a weapon, I think that at a certain level, you can also work it. And you can force some mistakes out of that side. I mean, it's pretty normal that you can force mistakes out of people's foreheads, these days, it seems to be the place to go to make mistakes, and people have solid back ends. I just think his is a little more vulnerable than a lot of the other guys like like Carl was into. But I mean, for me, there's maybe a little bit with his with the way he holds his racket and his swing. But what in my eyes, I think he's just he hits it well, when he moves through it and gets a good push from the legs and step through the ball. But too often I feel that he's just standing still and hitting the ball. That's what I'm seeing. Maybe I'm just fixating on it. But that's what I've been seeing for a long time. And I think he actually yeah, very bright and flat footed a lot. And when he actually gets good movement, good, good weight transference and specific things that Vasi can be much more specific about, I think he has a decent bowl. But it just when when you're standing still. And you're depending on timing like that, and you have maybe not, you have you don't have the softest hand as well, then you're just depending on having such clean timing, and there's not much give and take. So if you don't hit it spot on really clean, then you just have the risk of offspring. And that's kind of what happened to him sometimes I think,

Calvin Betten  19:03

I think I do think he's actually got better i i think maybe two or three years ago, I think it was it was a real weakness. Now, I think he's now got himself to second servers as well. So yeah, I was just gonna say that similarly, I think sort of maybe maybe before his injury, maybe sort of three, four years ago. He was in a place where he is foreign could spray errors. And he is second sir was so unreliable. I mean, the final that when he made the final that US Open. I don't think it plays ever made a final with a second serve in such a state. He was serving like 15 1617 double faults a match and still came through because he what he does do he makes a hell of a lot of first serves. I think he I don't know for sure. But he seems to always be well in the 70s on his first serve percentage, but what he's got to net what he's got himself to a place to now where he doesn't spray errors as much on his foreign I think in a trading situation is pretty comfortable in that he knows he can sort of guide it back to a length is not technically or any hits it harder than it kinda reminds me a little bit of what Edberg used to do on his forehand in that he just kind of guide it back when he had a fully stern grip, the grips are all different is better than no I'm not saying that I'm saying tactically though. I'm saying tactically though. You know that yeah, he was sort of look to guide it back to a length. And then when he could he bumped it up, but ever was a great volume ever is one of the top five volumes that's ever lived. So he could bump it into a corner, and then back himself at the net, where it's very everything kind of you can find the length of the you can hit a length, but he just can't attack on it. Like he just genuinely can't attack on it. And as as Freddy said, if you hit him hard on it, or what, what Alcatraz did yesterday was he mixed the Pacers up on it. So he never gave him a rhythm on his forehand is he struggles to do anything with it. And I don't think there's ever you look at all the players who've won this one slams, I guess kind of since Edberg, every single one of those. If you get a mid core four, and they can put they put the mid core four ends away to

Daniel Kiernan  20:59

a point and advise you to bring you in, he kind of had to make the final to afford these pay off in quarter they're talking to 200 grand to prove that he's innocent,

21:08

you know, didn't prove his innocence. He was presumed innocent, there's a big difference, massive difference. So he hasn't been proved guilty. He hasn't been proved innocent. It's been a presumption, he's been presumed innocent, which isn't an assumption. So I don't like I don't like that. Because if I was in his position, and I was adamant that I was innocent, I would want to go through the courts to clear my name 100% What I didn't like as well as in his interview after, you know, in the press, and you said, I don't want you guys to ever talk about this again. I mean, what gives him that God given right to talk to people like that? Because obviously they want to get to the bottom of it. And if I was if I was injured, I'd be saying, well hold on a second, if you are 100%, innocent, and you feel that you're innocent, why do you want to go on a presumed innocence rather than get a clear cut? I'm innocent. It's not the first time it's happened with him. And so, you know, then everyone's thinking is where this fuel this fire. And at the end of the day, the only thing that one year was a person with a lot of money. And we will never know how much he pays paid off his ex partner who's the mother of his kid, you know, you know what the out of court settlement is to be at, obviously a damn sight lot more than you know what we're paying, you know, paying the High Court, the high court fees. So I'm not a great fan of it. And I'm also not a great fan of him saying he's innocent, what he's not innocent, he's presumed innocent. And he needs to be corrected on that. Can I make

Freddie Nielsen  22:28

one more point about his tennis

Daniel Kiernan  22:30

before we go more on? Absolutely.

Freddie Nielsen  22:32

I think there's more time than ever though, for for that kind of style. Because I feel like the solid players getting getting a little bit of a renaissance you see caspo doing well swear, that's why Novak is still doing well, because the other guys are not playing the game as tactically astute as these guys and serve you can see one of his big strengths is he stays calm. As a few matches this tournament, he was outplayed. But he stayed calm. And he kept going to the end. And it feels like he's saying I'm gonna maintain my level all the way through. And I think that actually gives him a chance to states and I think we're coming up to a stage now where there might be a be a place in the in the world for Islam. We're not we're not necessarily have a big for him because he just matches up against the other guys so well because he plays the points. Well, he's calm, and he's incredibly confident. I mean, that goes without saying he thinks he's the man on the court, which is a pretty good quality to have if you want to be a good tennis player. So I'm coming I'm coming around and I never thought he was going to win one because because of the forehand but now seeing the matchup so you'll have to play against obviously there's some guys you know, in college that a lot better than him, but I think I feel like he's closing in and he's not that far away. Now. I

Calvin Betten  23:41

still don't think you'll win on Friday. Just because I spoke on the podcast this morning about why I don't think you'll win one because I think the only chance I think he's got a winning one is if if the others all get knocked out because even if he even if he doesn't play if he doesn't play sinner or Alcatraz.

Daniel Kiernan  23:55

Yeah, that's gonna happen. There's only the two now that's the easy, but he's also gonna happen at some point. You have a keynote.

Calvin Betten  24:01

He's also got terrible record against Medvedev. And he's got terrible record against Citypass as well. I didn't realize how bad he is recording and says passwords is 10 and five Okay, so since he passed beats him twice as many times as he beat Citypass. So when you've got you've got the next two down, and he can't be Medvedev, his record against Medvedev is terrible. And maybe that's fully in his head. So if he asked to play him, he's not winning that match and Citypass fancies himself obviously to beat him anyway. So then you're in it could get someone like rude in a final but the likelihood of all of those are the four not making a final two plays wherever on or not making or not being in the semi to play him. I just can't see it. I still don't think you'll win more. But but he

Freddie Nielsen  24:40

is getting better. He used to be horrible and slams his record and slams in the better that he won the Olympics title and I don't think he's that far off on the best of five.

Calvin Betten  24:50

I think Freddie that does I agree.

Freddie Nielsen  24:52

I agree. It is. I mean, it would be a surprise I'm not saying he's gonna get into double digits but I'm I'm less, more. I'm thinking that he's got to Bigger champs now than I've ever thought. I felt like I saw him on the court and I was thinking, he looks confident his forehand has improved and he's pretty solid. And I think he came through some matches where he was outplayed either because the other guy was better and because or because he didn't play well himself. I thought that was a pretty good quality. He's

Calvin Betten  25:18

also I think he's down to he's down to at least three comics. He won't win Wimbledon. I mean, he serves four and you can just hit his forehand too hard at Wimbledon eyes back and as beautiful it is, it's it's quite a big swing and he doesn't buy his own. I mean, so one of the things I found interesting I think was a couple of weeks ago where he said, I think somebody was talking about his lack of variation. He said himself, I don't have good hands so that I can play many drop shots. And if you don't you don't often get players themselves saying that like openly saying it. And he's right when he doesn't.

Daniel Kiernan  25:48

So III guess we all take for time. Roland Garros champion and we talked about Alcaraz playing only Madrid and three matches for matches in the run up ego and a different route. She just wanted all she won 90 matches in the three events, and Madrid, Rome and Paris. She dropped three sets in those 90 matches only two who were little quiz question Who did she lose a set to? In those three events? Have Alenka Saba Lanka final wasn't it of Madrid six and the third was it 100 might had admire? Yep, she did beat out in Milan, one on one, the next two sets and then but last. And then Osaka to go on and obviously

Freddie Nielsen  26:39

needed all those matches. You didn't get any game time and yeah, keep playing the tournament. So

Daniel Kiernan  26:42

she she seems like the queen of Claire, you know, and it's but we were we were all texting each other. I think that was the big match that grabbed our attention over the couple of weeks and the soccer match against EGA. It very much felt like a soccer was gonna take that match. And isn't it funny the margin at the margins of tennis. And yeah, and

Emily Webley-Smith  27:06

it was I think it was one of my favorite matches of French open on the most awful as well as we watched it unfold. But I would say I started off not not being too bothered about who won that one. And then by the time it started, I really wanted Osaka to win as I was watching it. And I just think she was the only player who really took it absolutely too eager and eager. We looked worried. And whoever wrote it can't remember who wrote it on the group chat but deer in the headlights at that point. That was me it

Daniel Kiernan  27:37

was the most complete player on tour.

Emily Webley-Smith  27:42

But again, like I didn't think she was going to get through that one with the way that it was going. I didn't think and we were seeing her get through so many matches and bend down and then just maintain her level. Like Freddy said almost solid, calm, intense. Just bring the level every single time but it was getting pretty hairy there for a while with how aggressive and how big or soccer was needing to go and wanting to go and then it just got crazy. As soon as she missed that back and in that at the top of the tape. You kind of felt that time was running out and still she was she still she was trying to get it back. Still. She was staying sticking to a game so she was being aggressive. But after that when you watch the Eagles matches, I just don't really feel like anyone challenged her in that same way. And how well she moving like I just can't It's unbelievable how well she was moving on the clay. That was for me standout for any of them any player. She was just absolutely phenomenal throughout the tournament with her intensity that she brought between points, her movement and how willing she was just to stay there.

Daniel Kiernan  28:41

Yeah. And it's actually I spoke to her was about four years ago. We I saw the guys that posted it earlier today. And she spoke at that time all about how she didn't know how she'd won Roland Garros. She'd want it but she just had no idea. And everything that she was doing and trying to work out and trying to organize in her head and was how do I have sustainable success? And here we are kind of three, four years later, she's won her fourth role and garage and she seems like she's cracking it on other surfaces as well. But I think it's just yeah, I think it's very she's very hard for people to compete with over a prolonged period. I think people can have matches, right? They can have, they can they can turn up and they can swing from the hip and they can they can take it down. I think one of you actually said, I think we all picked eager to win. And Calvin said eager will win unless she plays Rebecca nurse to pink or so she didn't play either of those. So I saw you also had had eager as well. But

Emily Webley-Smith  29:44

I think what's interesting with it as well, Dan is in all of the matches that we see her we kind of think that she's routining people and then you saw her reaction after the Osaka match and the pressure that she must be under to maintain that level. and that desire and that intensity. And I think because she wins so many matches so easily. I think we underestimate how much that takes out of her to do that. And I think she's always looking to be better. She's always looking to improve, but to stay number one and to stay with what she's bringing to the court every single time, especially at Roland Garros, I think that was you saw, firstly, she looked younger, but like I think she looked, you'll forget how young she is. And I think she also it showed what immense pressure she's under, when you saw her, you know, react like she did after the she was incredibly emotional after a second round match with a target because I think she thought, I think she thought she was going out.

Daniel Kiernan  30:38

She cried. I don't know if you guys remember the first the first French short when she won, she won a quarterfinal match, I forget who it was, but it was a big battle. And she cried and cried and cried after that match. And again, that was one of the things she spoke about. She said, actually, that was good for her. I haven't heard of talking about the Osaka match, but just need this release. And I think we don't see that many people in the world that have such an obsession, like obsession is quite a strong word. But I think what we do see with ego is this absolute obsession that every single thing that she's doing in her world, is to try and become one of the greatest female athletes ever. We've

Emily Webley-Smith  31:22

also got very little access to it as well, because she doesn't show any of that side of her life outside tennis. And she doesn't show much about herself in terms of her training or anything else. So it's like, we just see the end result. But then sometimes when she went and also she's not that emotional on the court. So you just, I think a lot of people watching would assume she wasn't. And then when you see how much it means there and how much pressure she's under. I thought that was really interesting with the Osaka situation. You

Freddie Nielsen  31:48

then see sometimes at the gym cam, you see some of the weird exercise she does. So

Emily Webley-Smith  31:53

did you see that with the eyes.

Calvin Betten  31:56

She's She's not the most popular person in the gym.

Freddie Nielsen  31:58

She just lies I've been there before with a player where she's just lying in the middle of doing something with electrodes on her face.

Calvin Betten  32:06

Anybody else that was in that one day last week where she started, she got a rack down just full on Start shadowing shops, and there were people around them.

Daniel Kiernan  32:14

Okay, blaster, I can head speed as well. You don't want to get into

Calvin Betten  32:18

full full pace.

Freddie Nielsen  32:20

But it speaks to you obsession, she doesn't care. I mean, I would I would not be comfortable doing weird stuff when people are looking, I wouldn't even be comfortable doing normal stuff because I thought it was bad as she couldn't care less. She just needs to do whatever she thinks is right.

Daniel Kiernan  32:34

Just very curious. I think she's a very, I've got a couple of small stories. One one when she was it's subtle when she was at the academy. Almost everything she did was cognitive loading best. So when she was in the gym, it was never just in the gym, but it was like doing a bunch of mental puzzles or exercises or maths. And then she would go on to the physical work and the same on court. She would do all sorts of different things and then go and hit tennis balls. That was the first one. The second one was actually Indian Wells. Last year, we were sacked. I mean, she spent two weeks at the academy and I say hello to her when I see her and I reckon 90% of the time she looks at me like who's this guy and just walks past me

Freddie Nielsen  33:18

thinking oh, if you think this guy Oh,

Daniel Kiernan  33:22

that's also very possible. But in Indian Wells that happened just have this moment where there was a few a couple of us sitting it was actually Neville Godwin, the nav God wound, and ego were just sat watching golf randomly on these couches. And we just got into this big conversation about golf. And she just was so she went into this almost obsessive mode, and was getting up and was trying to work out how to do the swing set. She'd never played golf. And we had this little kind of 10 minute period where Neville Godwin was teaching Eagle she on tech, how to swing a golf club he wrote it was like, What is going on, like what is happening here. But that is very much I think how our brain works, but I want to get it out there and please fire up the guys you know, I put it I put it out there. I'm gonna I'm going to caveat this with I was in the hospital with my wife when I sent this when I was watching the soccer shoot on tech. See it got easy on me. But I said a soccer is potentially because of the most complete player on the women's

Freddie Nielsen  34:23

tour. Because you'd never seen her play before there was

Daniel Kiernan  34:27

well, you guys care. It'll be pretty hard back, you know, pretty hard. And I maybe pick the wrong word incomplete. But you didn't. You know, the word that maybe is more appropriate to be dangerous, you know, is a word that I would think of a little bit more now. I do watch an even then I know Calvin you said about a movement and about a volleys and partner. I'd almost counter that a bit. I don't think she needs to volleyball. I think she needs to drive volleyball. I don't think she needs to volley well. I actually think she He's moving a bit better. I haven't watched a lot of her but I thought in that much he was moving. I think if or soccer is having much points are eager to be on tech on a clear court when she can't spell the word clear 612 months ago, I think the rest of the two needs to watch out for now you will be Asaka when we start getting on some surfaces that are a little bit quicker, she feels a little bit more comfortable on the foot. And I think she could be the danger player not complete player to look out for over the next 12 or 18 months. Kinos

Calvin Betten  35:35

picked out this dark horse who was one force lambs and big danger player. I didn't say that she didn't say a movement was poor. I said she can't defend. And I maintain that. And that's not necessarily just movement, she doesn't have any sort of slice or chip or have floated shot. She was when she does because she didn't want to match if she had one the other day like same as well, she she couldn't do anything. Or only way of winning points in that match was to hit winners. And that that became apparent later on in the match where she wanted to really put pressure on her to do that. You can't say that she doesn't need any defense if she had a defense if she had any sort of feel on the ball. She'd have she didn't she would have won that match the other thing if you're solid against egos,

Emily Webley-Smith  36:23

that's gonna work but

36:26

then she would have been the complete player she was she would have

Emily Webley-Smith  36:31

come in and hit Foley followed by a dink and then yeah, it

Calvin Betten  36:34

wasn't even that there was one shot where she needed one shot where all that she knew she had great surf and frantic kind of hit kind of a semi miss it and it was like short in the middle and all it needed was a average drop shot. Literally did just a little bit of backspin and she wanted was so far out of the court. She wouldn't have

Emily Webley-Smith  36:51

made it the back end that she missed in the top of the tape and

Calvin Betten  36:54

yeah, and she just tried to absolutely leather it where even if that goes in just one thing is gonna get there because she can't get any angle on it. She has to go at the middle of

Emily Webley-Smith  37:04

the lettering is what got her to into that position.

Calvin Betten  37:07

But if you can you say that all the time, though. Emily, you can go oh, well, you know, she's one of this many points is doing it. But on top of that, once he got close at the end, if I was soccer put strong tech on the defense, there was still a good chance that Sean tech could win the points out of that. As soon as Frontech got the first hit in the point was over again. I

Emily Webley-Smith  37:26

just don't think that Naomi will move well enough on a clay court to beat by being solid like I just don't think her defending and being solid is not

Calvin Betten  37:36

I'm not saying that her tactic should be she's gonna she's gonna play defensive or solid. I'm saying that even if it only means that you win one out of four points once from tech can hit Get a good hit on the ball to a backhand. She doesn't have any kind of neutralizing shot. I'm not even. I'm not even

Emily Webley-Smith  37:52

one of the few girls that can slide off their left but yeah,

Calvin Betten  37:55

but most of the girls have some sort of defensive shots. Coco Golf has good defense. She moves around, she can stick some length some Linkous started doing a bit of it. Not saying you have to be Dan Evans with a slice here. I'm saying have the ability to hit a slice. She won't even do that if she's in 100%

Emily Webley-Smith  38:15

believe in his eyes back and I'm just not sure that for Naomi that would have won at the match like you said, but she

Calvin Betten  38:22

she was that close to it. You can't go into the last the latter stage of a match against Quantic with the only way of winning a point being you're going to hit a clean winner. Look at yesterday, Alcatraz attacked yesterday against veriff. But he also had other ways of winning points. You can't go in there against wanting incredible like I'm not talking about movement though. Emily, I'm talking in order to defend you have to move well, not necessarily because you can hit the ball big down the middle. If Sean tech cracks the ball into outside his backhand. You've got to be able to neutralize

Emily Webley-Smith  38:51

with the stand up on a clay court while he goes with it.

Calvin Betten  38:55

What's up I forgot to do with it. I'm talking about the feel on the racket guy the ball back up the middle have some sort of neutralizing ability rather than if you hit the ball hard. I'm just going to work it as hard as I can back regardless how hard you hit it. It's just brainless tennis.

Daniel Kiernan  39:11

It's convenient.

39:13

If if Nomi had a gun forehand she would hit it with no pace and she'd be fine. Should be the final

Daniel Kiernan  39:21

is this is this the same girl that you just told me? He's one four grand slams? She told me if she's

Calvin Betten  39:27

allowed to play a game she's fine she will beat most players although she's always going to have she's never going to dominate I don't think and she's never has dominated she's very good on the hardcores and when she's in a group she's she's unstoppable against she ever beat and fronted that one that

Daniel Kiernan  39:44

the one that I do want the one I want to move to and for and Freddie, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this because Jasmine Pelini is age 28 Because by the way, we're claiming her she's she's been around Yeah,

Freddie Nielsen  39:57

yeah, it's her granddad lives in Copenhagen and lots of Danish citizens were claiming

Daniel Kiernan  40:02

my Theodoros all over that. Anyway, Italian, we already know that. But she's aged 28 before 2020 Fall, she had never made it past second round of a slump. And now she's number 12 in the world. She's semifinalist, that French Open, she won the 1000 event in Dubai. It's a nice one. It's a nice one for those out there. You know, we like these stories, right? We don't just want everyone to be 1617 coming through and winning everything. We want to showcase these stories, that there's different ways and there's longer periods to get there. But But I guess my question and you might know this, you might not you might speculate. What's happened, you know, seems like a big change. It seems like a big, big change to happen at that stage of Korea.

Freddie Nielsen  40:48

It is. And to my knowledge, I also think that she's been with Renzo for land for a long time as well. There's not like it seems like there was a big change of scenery, to my to the best of my knowledge. But it's really strange how it is sometimes sometimes something's click, it's tough to explain why. And when it happens, only she can tell maybe, I don't know. Something happened in her life. Maybe she just came around, maybe she had a few good wins out of believing maybe something outside the court happened that made her change something who knows. But like you said, for meat, they we need those stories. It's, it's boring. Otherwise, if we don't have the stories, sport is the story to the everyday person that everything can happen. That's why we leave the booth. That's why we play the matches. And we need those, you know, the stories of if you if you believe it, you can make it happen. So she's a great story and a very good thing for tennis in general. And I'm very impressed by her. I have to say it's

Daniel Kiernan  41:45

maybe at this stage that I mentioned the dark horses guides, so Calvin Benton, Naomi Hasakah. The winner It was the year that gave me abuse it was a Freddy doll call you can't you said keynote. You can't tell about a dark horse and I only saw you.

Calvin Betten  42:13

Wait a minute, wait a minute here. You'll find if you go back and listen that the rule was anyone who's not seated. And I said whoever does not see that then I'm taking. Okay,

Daniel Kiernan  42:23

well, the rules change.

Emily Webley-Smith  42:25

They change all the time.

Daniel Kiernan  42:30

It was a crap what anyone he lost in the second round. Freddie Nielsen Burrell took a first round loss standard Freddie Nielsen tacos tomorrow. That's tomorrow. Well done. And I didn't shout out. Mike Digby, the amazing Mike Digby, solid Tennis Academy coach who's traveling with Tamara. And Tamara has had a nice little turnaround the last few weeks

Emily Webley-Smith  42:55

when I was having this conversation about the dark horse down with the Slovenian coach that I was working with. He said that I love it. And I before the before I did the podcast with you. I like it. I went with Tamara. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  43:11

Your urine bolster, got a fourth round pick. Well done Bobby. Fernandez, Otter pour that and often that you picked to an undead who's also been a finalist of a Grand Slam by the way, the third round, but

43:24

I spent a lot of minutes on caught on that fourth round match. Yeah. Do you think

Calvin Betten  43:32

she definitely hasn't got what she wanted.

Daniel Kiernan  43:33

I want to say 10 points. 10 points of the match. Before

Freddie Nielsen  43:38

you give me too much shit. I want to say I think I'm the only one who plays this right? Pig genuine Dark Horse. Hold

Daniel Kiernan  43:43

on, hold on my mind was Peyton Stearns and. And after we picked it, she went on and won the WTA event that week.

Freddie Nielsen  43:51

Oh, what's that? What's the preview was for the WTA event? Hold

Daniel Kiernan  43:56

on, and then should we Kazakh Kena third round?

Calvin Betten  43:59

Before I move on from it, I think something something I was thinking yesterday that I'm not sure this time that this is no criticism of Sean tech, because it's not her fault by any stretch. But it's not a great showing for the product of women's tennis. This tournament. I don't think like when you look at how routinely that Shantae is going through the draw. It's not really pulling many people into the sport that and I'm not sure how you deal with it. She

Daniel Kiernan  44:26

on Tiger soccer was probably the most talked about match or what it was. Yeah.

Calvin Betten  44:30

And that that one fair enough. But then that's it happening in the second round. But you've got Grand Slam Finals That are lasting, what 50 minutes,

Freddie Nielsen  44:38

and then the best match you have she comes out and abuses the crowd afterwards. Yeah, well, no, that was really weird. I mean, there's a time and a place and you just played the best match of the tournament. There's a lot of talk about why no women are playing the night session which is obviously we all know it's because the French work too late. We all know that And then she comes out and abuses the crowd when when she should be high on a victory and just giving them thanks. It was great. Let's go. That was really weird to me. And the

Emily Webley-Smith  45:11

question wasn't even related to that, like the question that she was asked. And then she just went off on a tangent. I just think I understand she was emotional. But that was just another level. And it was just absolutely the wrong moment.

Calvin Betten  45:22

I think tying into that, as well as rubber Kena, who is probably the third best player in the world, just refusing to engage with any sort of media at all. In the most bizarre press conference where she just kept no matter what they asked, they asked her about about five different subjects. And she just kept going our same question again, guys, can we get some real questions? And that that was quite pathetic. I thought when you're supposed to be trying to promote the game. Like, and I do like Robert Keener, but, you know, it's part of my job as well. Yeah. It's not really helping when you're going down that route. But yeah, I mean, I think on the night matches, I do find this a bit of a red herring in that there is no solution to it really, in the if you're going to start the matches at 12pm, which is what the the in the first week when most of the night matches are, if you're going to start the day session on Saturday at 12pm. The only way that you can have a night session is if you arrange it with two women's matches one men's match, you can't you can't do two men's matches one women's because you won't make the 830 start then or there's a good risk, you won't make the a 30 start on top of it. You can only have you need big names in the night matches. So you can't have Sean tech on there, because their matches are just too short. And you know that her matches are going to be too short. You're they're only going to last about 40 minutes, 45 minutes. She's the big name. A lot of the other big Coco golf, for example, always plays doubles. So depending on the side of the draw that she's in, she can't have the night matches, because she she plays doubles, and she and the doubles always go on second. They won't start the night session any earlier because this thing that they've got in France with the news, the nightly news. And also marazzo said yesterday's Parisien culture, people don't want to watch tennis before 830. And on top of that, you can't have two matches, because it's just going to finish too late. I really find it difficult to see how many women's matches you can get on in the night session.

Freddie Nielsen  47:22

I think you just do it, you just do

47:24

1. You've got to you've got the ptpa who have the best interests at heart of the players so they can step up to the plate and make sure that the scheduling is done correctly. On top of that, but the players can do because they've got they've got to preserve their shoulders. I've got a Willie case I can bring the willie case on so that don't have anything on their shoulders. They might have lines on the club, but it's nice to have a really close with them. The

Calvin Betten  47:43

fact of matter is that it shouldn't have a night session Wimbledon does it right where I get the nice I shouldn't I get the Australian Open overnight session because Calvin Calvin

47:52

Calvin Wimbledon dirt right purely and simply because they have no choice made. If that if there was no caffeine 11 Do you think that's stopping? 11? Yeah,

Calvin Betten  48:00

no, that's fair. That's fair. But they don't sell to lots of tickets either body like, you know, they could say we're selling in more than

48:07

one session. Yeah, they have three matches on center court. And that's it. But

Calvin Betten  48:11

you got but this business with having a night session in Paris, and only starting at 830. It's just utter madness. And you've got situations like like, like there was a few days when I was there last what you were, you had nothing going on on Saturday for two hours. There's one day where there was nothing going on on Saturday for two hours. Yeah, that's a criminal. They don't want to send another match on because the night such as that 830 You've got to get they can't say that they they've got to get everyone out of shatter a and everyone else in Asia is carnage. And then you got people going nice. It shows that there's inequality, because they won't put women's marches on there and argue that our psychische vantec should have been a night match. Not Are you definitely should have been it's two big names, they should have stuck it on there, the rest of the matches you look at and you think well, how can we logically do this? How can we stick a women's match on at night because that means we're gonna have to have two men's matches on in the day, that won't allow us enough time to do that. These players are playing doubles, we're also a bit worried that this match is going to be finished in about 45 minutes, and we can't stick on to outside top 10 ranked players.

49:14

Listen, the bottom line at the bottom I covered on all of this is that no one's considering anything to do with the welfare of the players. But Parisian lifestyle is irrelevant to the welfare of the players. So there's got to be a standardized standardized formula that, you know, the slams should use if they've got nine matches so that they will kind of follow the same formula. And all no all jokes aside, the ptpa should really be stepping up to the plate and actually saying, right, you know, this has to happen. And if it doesn't happen, there's going to be some sort of repercussion, but but it's not it's just it's you know, and the players, the players that are complaining are on the board of the ptpa. So so it's like, you know what, come on.

Daniel Kiernan  49:51

So but then But then But then the players need to step up and understand that this is entertainment, and this is about supply and demand. This is about this is about what they're bringing and then when you've got Rebecca and and are answering questions, or you've got people that are refusing to have a camera showing any level of emotion and get people attached to a topic that has to be balanced

50:15

right I've voiced a voice tennis players need to take a leaf out of the golfers book right? But the golfers do is incredible I mean if you if you look at the look at the full swing versus the tiebreaker it's it's like day and night in terms of you know, captivating one on you you know wanting to watch episodes. And yeah, but but I still think that you know, as a player organization, you should be able to have a little bit more saleable power in terms of if you feel that the welfare of the players has been heard like jurkovich Finishing at three three whatever it is in the morning and then he's only got he's got less time to recover beaner based on that, is that detriment that French Open is not a tournament I think of oh my god I'm watching tennis to three in the morning French opens a tournament that it was there that you played to a bad light stop play you know, and there was no issues with meddling then was there there was zero issues it's been there's been zero issues with shedding when when it was done normal it's all of a sudden now we've got a roof now we actually turning it into an indoor event when you know if it's raining it's that's off the roofs therefore,

Calvin Betten  51:15

it comes down to greed as well they want the basically they want to sell another lot of tickets and even the stuff about the Parisian culture it's it's nonsense because we get the same thing that are they like to go for their lunch in the middle of the day so they don't watch tennis that's only on Saturday if you go the French Open in the middle of the day every single outdoor court is packed all the time. It's kind of one of the problems with the French Open that you can never get to see on the outdoor courts to watch anything and that includes the smallest courts those guys don't disappear to have lunch in the middle of the day is purely because the French Open Chateau they put all the exact seats down the bottom around the sides of the courts and that's what you can see there the seats closest to the match and because they want to do that the exact seats they just don't watch any tennis I

Freddie Nielsen  51:57

also don't think the French Open was a night session kind of tournament I don't remember many particularly curling night session matches

52:04

I mean definitely Wimbledon French has always been it's that livestock play you come back tomorrow and you finish up Australia New as have always had nine matches it's just

Freddie Nielsen  52:11

ridiculous and with with men's versus women's I agree. There's a problem. But if you're being serious about doing this, right, just put women's matches on and create the names you know if they don't if they never get a chance how you're going to create the name just put them on do it. And then you take some losses, so No, but you take something for the greater good of the game. I

Calvin Betten  52:27

don't know if he's that simple, though, for me, because Amazon also own the rights to the night much Amazon they're paying a fortune for it. Amazon not paying a fortune for 40 minutes a tennis

Emily Webley-Smith  52:36

No, but when Cetera was whacking people or bid or people were getting whacked on Play by Nadal, they would still put that on a

Calvin Betten  52:42

night didn't they didn't like they didn't have no matches that No.

Emily Webley-Smith  52:46

There'll be a feature match where people would be like, this is 40 minutes, but he didn't

Calvin Betten  52:50

have I mean, I don't think forever normal time will be 40 minutes. Just got to the you've got to have three sets of men's tennis anyway.

Emily Webley-Smith  52:55

No, I mean, like, I think there's definitely been one sided men's matches as well. I agree with Friday that like it might not be the best match ever. But it gives people a chance to get to know the players and expose them a little I don't

Calvin Betten  53:08

think I think again, it's not a night match. So Amazon didn't own it. This is all Amazon saying we want a product here. You're not giving a product. If it's only 14 minutes. They're selling adverts, because especially now with Amazon Prime, they're selling adverts. So they need they have a certain amount of advertisement slots. You they can't be risking not even getting to the fourth, fifth and sixth advertising slots that they've been paid for. I don't think you can put a 45 minute mat and I think for ticket sales as well, who's going to buy the tickets for 45 minutes if they know that every other night is a women's match? I think they struggle to sell it out because they're not

Daniel Kiernan  53:43

45 minutes has been a bit OTT. I mean,

Calvin Betten  53:46

look how long this one takes matches last. How long did the matches last outside of Osaka? Well, there was one player. How many how many lasted more than an hour.

Emily Webley-Smith  53:54

But I still think the French would enjoy to go and see that they enjoy to see good tennis, whether it's a close match, but sometimes in a close match the tennis isn't as good as well

Calvin Betten  54:03

with the French players on I don't know about that. They'll watch it anyway. Because if you watch the women's matches, they're not even they're not going in the stadium in the middle of the day. Like

Emily Webley-Smith  54:11

Chloe Paco had some unbelievable like matches at the French this year. And I think like she would be somebody that everybody would get behind on

Calvin Betten  54:19

if you were a Chief Exec of Amazon. And you'd paid the money on it. And they told you you were getting Chloe pack a against I don't know. All

Emily Webley-Smith  54:27

right, well about Katie Boulter against but also just because they're both Britain and it was a good match they would put that on but they didn't. They didn't put it on that. No, it was on a late outdoor court and it was a bloody good match and there was a full crowd and people were standing on rows behind I watch

Calvin Betten  54:41

it all crowd diagonally because it was a tiny, tiny but

Emily Webley-Smith  54:44

that one would have that would have sold out that would have

Calvin Betten  54:48

way that that have sold out but those who are against both but it would have created

Emily Webley-Smith  54:51

it that would have that was a good match that the French crowd would have enjoyed they were never going to put that on.

Calvin Betten  54:56

Why would you ever night session and put what bolters Rankin 20 Seven against the dosa, who's won? I don't know what the dose is ranking it. She's mid top 10. Right. But I don't think you can sell that to Amazon and go this is the match we're putting on as the night session. You can have like two unseeded players as the night session just because in hindsight it was a close match. You have to

Emily Webley-Smith  55:18

locate the match is going to be closer. Not before I will just put

Calvin Betten  55:21

the next night session, then we'll put on the world number 92 against a will number 73 Because it might be a good match

Emily Webley-Smith  55:27

on faces match. What was his match?

Calvin Betten  55:29

But it last longer, though? He's a superstar though, Emily?

Emily Webley-Smith  55:34

Yeah, of course. I just think that there's room for it. Like you've got to start somewhere. Like I get it like I also don't think there should be nine matches at the friend. But if there's going to be then it should be more equal than it was you

Calvin Betten  55:47

can look at it from the from the point of view of Amazon and we're going to want a product. And then Amelie Mauresmo is the tournament director is gonna have to sell that she's not just going to stick on to random players because she thinks this could be a close match

Freddie Nielsen  55:59

nobody absolutely right in the here and now completely, there's not nothing that you say that it's wrong. But I think for the if you really want to do something for the greater good of tennis and you want to have, you're gonna have a legacy and then maybe I'm thinking wrong, because I don't really care about that much about money and stuff. But then you when you make that deal with Amazon, you say hey, just so you know, every second night is gonna be a women's match. And if you don't want it, we'll find some find somebody else to sell it and then you start there and you create that product because the product like you say, it's not particularly there yet I completely agree with that and even truanting Again, so it's like I wasn't full but then you have to start somewhere. Look, look how much has happened and women's football all over the world or

Calvin Betten  56:38

that's my point though, Freddy. That's my point. Is that the product? This is where I come back to

56:42

football over the world. What's happened?

Freddie Nielsen  56:44

It's much more interesting on a world basis. I mean, yeah, 100% you can give me facts on that. There's more people that see it. There's more people that watch it I can I have more access to the women's football news. What are they? What are the Australian football ladies called the Socceroos? That's the men right? Yeah, something I think they're more more attractive in in Australia. The men are,

57:07

let me put it to you this way. Right. And this is this is a fact. If they if when you talk of stadia, if they sell women's football tickets at the same price, they sell men's tickets, the standards will be empty.

Freddie Nielsen  57:19

Yeah. But there's they're getting better. For

57:22

like 10 pounds a ticket.

Daniel Kiernan  57:25

Society. Sorry, I'm

57:26

not, I'm just trying to keep perspective and I'm with you, Emily, I'm totally with him. But what I'm saying to you is that, you know, you know, if I if I if I take my son to go watch Tottenham men play, and I'm buying the ticket on online, I'm spending 500 quid for two tickets. I'll be lucky if I spend 15 quid for two tickets to go and watch Chelsea and Kingstonian Stadium against but

Daniel Kiernan  57:46

that's this. That's the same argument, you can have the same argument with singles and doubles, right. And ultimately, this all doesn't have to be a men versus women. It's, it's about who we have chosen to create a stars.

Calvin Betten  58:01

And that's where I'm coming from Nokia. That was where I was going there is this and I think this is the when I talk about the product. There's two parts of it. There's the actual product of the match, how good are the matches, which I think there's a question of when they're the last things they're lasting less than an hour and also the product of the player selling it. This is what

Daniel Kiernan  58:19

a Taylor if Taylor Swift played a match that the French Open against Michelle Obama would the sell it out to

Calvin Betten  58:27

be close when it free sent it out?

Daniel Kiernan  58:29

Well then sell it out. There absolutely sell it out.

Calvin Betten  58:32

Because they're superstars though.

Daniel Kiernan  58:33

Exactly. And that's my point. My guess is the point that I'm hearing is like in our sport, and I don't want to just get on the men women's side of things that aren't serving as a Singles Doubles thing. I think it's it's marketing, it's where we choose to put the attention is where we choose to shine the light, you know, so if we talked about men's and women's football, for 150 years, the lights being shone upon men's football. So of course the ticket sales are going to be much higher. But what was what started to happen in the last few years is that light start to shine, where my little girls are desperate to go and watch Beth Mead and, and the players from England because there's a light that's been shone upon them. And that's the starting point. And what I'm hearing from what Emily and Freddie are saying is we have a chance in our sport, we have our chance here at an event like the French Open there's a pretty big light that can be shown on an Amazon deal on a TV deal for primetime Showtime, tennis and also a viewership where we start making some more stars and let's make some stars in the women's game let's make some stars Lord down in the men's game

59:38

I spoke to a very well known journalist and he was like you know like the he said the girls on the girls side you know the top three from Belarus and Kazakhstan and he said you just can't sell it to you can't it's so it's so different. They can't even sell sell online they boring they don't they from unfortunate from the wrong countries both

Emily Webley-Smith  59:57

boring or dull, and I think I knew there was a tennis or That's not to say,

1:00:00

just repeating I'm repeating what I know.

Emily Webley-Smith  1:00:03

I'm just saying like, I just think, very well, but like, I agree, doesn't help the situation. But I

1:00:11

mean, she's she's done as dishwater.

Freddie Nielsen  1:00:13

I think also honestly, there's a few different arguments. First of all, I think tennis has always been pretty good. We have the highest paid female athletes in the world. If you buy it grounds past the French Open, you don't pay five pounds less, to only watch the women's matches. So you have equal tickets there that may equal money at the slams at least. And second of all, I think, you know, I think the men's men are boring as well. And I think it's unfair to expect some of the women to have more of a angry when you tank an interview, that's obviously not great. And if they have boring personalities, yeah, whatever. But I think there's too much expectancy for the women to have more than just the tennis. I mean, there's a lot of many guys, I don't want to hear what they say in interviews, I don't care. even think that tennis is really boring. But I think there's less expectation from the men to do anything out of the ordinary than there is for the women. And I think tennis has always been a pioneer when it comes to this, I think they can do a lot better. And one of the things they can do is just do it and create a legacy and maybe lose the money in the short run. I think I completely hear what you guys are saying I think you're all right in the here and now but it's an investment right you lose some money in the short term and then maybe you build something up and you have a huge legacy right

1:01:25

tennis players historically and inherently are the most selfish individuals ever. They don't care they don't care about growing the game they don't care about what's for the greater good of the sport. just care about the here and now they care about themselves and that's that's always been the issue. That's always been the same on the men's been same on the women's too. And until that's addressed till that is that point address you will always will be talking about

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:49

life as you That's life. That's where life is not the industry we we see not having it others fall to the same other sports.

1:02:01

Golf is completely different. What does golfers give back to the to golf and their tour? And what what do you see is not even comparable? What what happens on the tennis tour, not even comparable? Zero comparison? Absolutely.

Freddie Nielsen  1:02:15

You're absolutely right.

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:16

But that's why it's because they

1:02:17

do it with education. And I think it's also I think there's a lot of this there's a lot of different caveats to this because you golf only starts on a Thursday. So you know the Golf has come in on Sunday, Monday, they have a sponsors day. On the Wednesday they played they have to play the program with with one of the sponsors now tennis that would only happen on the weekend before and then the players like nonpracticing No, screw you, I'm not doing it I can't be asked. And then they try to

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:43

drill that's cultural. That's not a cultural, it's not cultural. Golf is a corporate sport. So tennis is not even close to how corporate golf is

1:02:54

no, come on at the top at the top of the game. At the at the top. What about the Grand Slam sports when those guys were going in there, you had all the Grand Slam champions German North American fortune stuff going into going in there doing all the corporate stuff, this happened, this happened in the 90s in the in the 1000 make fortunes, fortunes. And now going in and doing sponsors days, don't give me

Calvin Betten  1:03:14

that I'm inclined to agree with VAs on this because you only have to look at what's happening with the talk of the tours, that they're happily the top 93 players are happily just to throw every other single tennis player under the bus to get their own tour with 93 to make sure that they're paid well. And they're trying to do it under the guise of, well, we'll we'll get rid of everyone who's lower than 93, we'll get rid of all doubles players, because they're taking some of our money as well. And we'll go equal prize money, men's and women's. And let me tell you what's going to happen on that. Give it two or three years, the men's players will look and go, Wait a minute, they're not even filling the stadiums. They don't even they don't even fill in the stadium. So why are they getting the same amount of money as we are? Their figures on the TV are not the same? Why are they getting the same amount of money as we are? And they'll start they'll want more money again, give it give it a little bit longer, the top 20 players, they'll go wait a minute, why are 93 of us getting this much money now, we should be getting this much we should be getting more money. And that's the way it's going to work. There has to be some care for the sport. And the players really have to do it. And if they're not going to do it, the governing bodies have to do it. Don't really have faith in them to do it.

Freddie Nielsen  1:04:20

I agree with you because I completely agree the players are horrible in that sense. They really don't care. They don't care about the legacy. They don't care if the sport of tennis completely falters after they finish. I've seen it I've heard it from the player councils and whatever. That's why if the people higher up the decision making that have to do it because you can't trust people who have zero empathy who don't know care to make these decisions. And that's why these these people have the chance and yeah, you're gonna lose something in the short term, but you you got to make that I think you have to try and make it happen and at least that the history book will show well what did you do To try and make it happen. There was nothing to be sold and just this Yeah, it's true. But what did you try? We put Katie Bolden. But those were in court seven, and there were a few lines. But now I think you can really try and invest, you know, in order to invest something in gain something from you got to put something up. It's not just gonna be all profit all the way through. And I think they're missing a chance here.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:20

Do you think the people that are making those decisions give a shit about the greater good of the game?

1:05:24

That's a great, that's a great question. And I think I think the people at the top of the game, there are egos that have come in individual egos. And yeah, I think it's it trickles down.

Freddie Nielsen  1:05:34

I mean, if you see Morris Miller, who was he was one of the best female players. I mean, she must be she obviously has some sort of short term agenda to sell the matches or because she understands. She saw that firsthand. And she can even come up with a good argument for why the women can be on I mean, the human cows are the Parisian culture. What is that? They work late? They come? I mean, no. So So there's obviously something short term and she's got to answer she has some sort of job description. She has to follow through and whatever. But it's called the corporate line. Yeah, 100%. I think it's a shame. I think you just do it. And then you you take it and even then down the years, you can see okay, maybe it doesn't pan out. But but you have a chance here and you just do it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:18

So we've talked about needing characters that aren't boring, we've talked about eagles. So probably at this point, we should bring up quarantine moutet, who's tends to fit into both of those bits, because we'll talk about a couple of, I guess, later subjects. You know, we saw his behavior. He certainly brings eyeballs onto his matches, for the right reasons, wrong reasons. But I thought this was really interesting. In his round three match against Sebastian offner. He hit 12 underarm serves, which is which is a record. Do you know how many he one of those 12? Probably 1210 1212 for 1212 for 12. So at what point are we going to stop actually looking at an underarm serve as a bad thing, the way that the game is evolving?

Freddie Nielsen  1:07:08

We kind of talked a little bit about that on the thread I asked that about because I think that the underarm service only out because of some sort of understanding of you just don't do that or a gentlemen's agreement or embarrassment. Because there are some people out there who serve I mean, as a returner, I would much rather face a bad kick serve that short and high in the middle of court that low bouncing sideways slice spin off the side of the court, that's horrible to deal with.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:36

I mean, I need to see those 12 points, but to win 12 out of 12 It's pretty bloody impressive. If you've got a tactic that's winning you 12 points out of 12 You're probably gonna look to implemented a little bit more, I would

Freddie Nielsen  1:07:50

imagine. Yeah. But if you're playing Rafael Medvedev who are standing all the way in the back fence, there's consistently some of the best returners. If you're just gonna say, oh, for the live I don't want to embarrassment so I'm just gonna play straight into their hands. It's some sort of I think it's a misunderstanding that it's that it's disrespecting the game or it's not serious to serve under. I mean, I think you may I've not been a coach for that long and I haven't seen that many coaches you know better than me then but I don't think many coaches would encourage under arm serving as well. So I think there's the there's something to be had about the server that could come back especially for the people that don't have great service. Maybe I shouldn't serve more Andromeda ships or

Calvin Betten  1:08:34

maybe maybe Davidovich for Kena say back a few years by doing a run this one against revenue was it much point

Freddie Nielsen  1:08:46

eight eight and then afterwards and said that you didn't know what to do when to shatter a couple

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:53

boy, I want to I think we need to give a shout out. A couple of doubles players actually in you know, matter Pavich for Grand Slam men's doubles titles for different partners for different years, you know, came together with Marcelo Arevalo and one that won the title and the Olympics gold and he's gonna Olympic gold as well. So, you know, Pavich obviously, kind of fell off the cliff a little bit last year, but we definitely saw it out there he was, he was working bloody hard. I saw from probably Cincinnati onwards, you could see there was a change in focus. And actually, I did have Harry spoke to you about this girl, but I know Harry played with him. Harry Halley of Ira played with him in end of the Paris and and he said it was unbelievable the intensity that he was bringing to the practice court. So that's always good to see that that and I know our evallo brings that as well. So it's always good to see that hard work pays off as well. I

1:09:52

mean, it's criminal that you don't bring intensity to the practice squad and more so in the me current half of court. It's embarrassing.

Calvin Betten  1:09:57

I think. It's interesting as well with those To the they were struggling a little bit they were one of the partnerships that people were talking about, because there's been quite a few new partnerships this year they were one of the ones who up until before the claycourt season people were saying not really worked out that it should have worked out they're both very good players. But you know, maybe maybe they could be available over the summer and they've really they've got a great lake offseason and

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:23

then on the on the women's side siniakova won her eighth Grand Slam Coco golf first doubles doubles title siniakova maybe got a little bit lucky actually to her partner Taylor Townsend pulled out only a few days before and then managed to pick up Coke or golf to ridiculous

Calvin Betten  1:10:42

repairing there was government was not going to play that cost for

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:46

Gula. But for ghoul obviously was was kind of out for the clay court season but book by bit by bit. You know, she was pulling out kind of week on week and then I think there was a few things that went on. There was obviously a lot of different changes, changes that happened siniakova was playing with with storm and then she did her Achilles out for the year so but it Grand Slams impressive. And then I also want to shout out alpha you and Gordon Reed who won the hit 20th Grand Slam title together this their fifth French Open in a row, it feels like they're the unbeatable duo. The British pass in wheelchair tennis or a big, big, well done to them as well. But there's been some heated stuff, guys. It's always good. I think it's there's a nice, there's a nice blend. I massively appreciate you guys putting your opinions out there. I think that's what people like listening to you speak because it's, it's not just vanilla. You know, we're getting to get into some proper topics. And I guess my last topic, and I'm always I always like to look back on these and see, we've got grass court season has started. So a little quick fire to finish and Fozzie, you're going to be the starting point. What are we to look out for grass court season? 2024. I

1:12:10

think I look. I hope, I hope. I hope Jack Draper has a good good grass court season. He's off to a winner today. I think you know by by the end of Wimbledon, he's going to be the new person number one. He's got a free swing. Yeah. I mean, Dan Evans

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:24

needs to win some tennis matches up pretty fast. On this grass court season. Yeah, Danny's

1:12:29

doing a few. But he's he's committed to the Olympics. So he's sacrificing Washington. So I

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:35

had a little luck Iike dropped to 161 70 The reason

Freddie Nielsen  1:12:40

I take that out as well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:42

I thought I'd check this it's a big potential big drop. So he he needs to be if he's going to kind of keep keep his ranking up there. You need to grasscourt season and

1:12:51

it certainly does. Yeah, he was up for setting a break in the second I didn't watch the match but

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:58

that's what we're looking at

1:12:58

all I was I think a sock. I mean, look, we talked about a soccer but I think if she could have a good swing on the grass on the girls side. She doesn't need it. She doesn't need a slice. I mean she she can hit through people don't think gun forehand serves gonna do much but I think I mean, Alcatraz. I'd like to Brett's obviously to do well. But you know, I'd like camp that Dan. And the I see they're committed. Andy and Jamie are gonna play doubles at Wimbledon. That's committed. So

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:24

so that that was my one that I was gonna bring up. But soon as you brought up 15, you've probably ticked off everyone else's list. So so let's go with that one. Yeah, we'll take it to calve calve was right about Dan and Andy. You know, it's in hindsight. What about Andy and Jamie to give them any chance?

Calvin Betten  1:13:43

Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone would want to play them on the grass, especially. They're a tough draw. I imagine Andy will definitely be committed to it. I don't see any situation where he won't play. Unless he goes very deep in the singles, I would think so.

1:13:58

Can we can I just can I just throw in here. Like, how would you describe Jamie's forehand if you've described zero point?

Calvin Betten  1:14:08

No, again, into the shuttle. Shuttle. Shuttle on a double? Yeah, he makes. He doesn't have many ground is does it doesn't mean many ground is at all. He gets the net? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think there'll be it'll be interesting. I don't think they're gonna win it. But I think there's a lot of nice story. Yeah, it would be, you know, be nice. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. But I think the thing were ads. I mean, just before we came, just before we recorded this, I think one of the things that I've been looking for is any tennis because the forecast the British summer forecast isn't terrible. And it's freezing. Yeah, it's freezing. But there's I mean, I looked for all this week and then on next week at Queen's and it's rained you every day in London. So this

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:52

this this collars disappearing in the next week or two. I

Calvin Betten  1:14:56

mean, I think that yeah, I mean, I think I saw yesterday that they're forecasting The wettest summer that we've had in 30 years or something. We

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:03

love that though that we that we love a little like advanced forecast in the UK. It's gonna be the hottest summer ever record. We love that we can't talk about anything but weather. I mean, the French and the French was pretty that looked hard like looking. looking from the outside. I was like, Thank God I'm not there. It

Calvin Betten  1:15:22

was It was rough. It wasn't a very, I mean, as anyone who's been to the French knows that there isn't a lot of space when it's raining. For the players, the players restaurants are tiny. They're not big enough. Quite frankly, they're nowhere near big enough to help host an event of that size. And that's even when it's not raining. Like you can't sit down for lunch if you if you've come off with players and I've had this situation last week if players come off from there much at lunchtime, you won't get a table Yeah, I think that yeah, I think that that will be interesting how much that affects everything as well.

Freddie Nielsen  1:15:55

I think there's no in my opinion, there's no real obvious ones. For me, it's more it is so open now with no blackouts and a few of the big guns not being particularly comfortable in the grass.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:08

Back out for the grass.

Freddie Nielsen  1:16:09

I read that did I read that wrong? Tana Fritz

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:13

Taylor threads 23 days back after meniscus tears.

Freddie Nielsen  1:16:16

I just I said it because I saw a headline where it was basically coded so probably one of those journalists hack journalists who who went with it but I'm gonna assume he's not playing and then there's for me it's like the story of who's going to make a run I think there's a great opportunity for a lot of guys to make a run so who's

Emily Webley-Smith  1:16:37

teeny healthy playing this week?

Calvin Betten  1:16:41

I assume is I don't think he's injured I

1:16:43

think he's been he must be sick God he's got to be a stickler for sure.

Freddie Nielsen  1:16:46

Yeah cuz he I don't remember seeing

Emily Webley-Smith  1:16:49

any winning it last year. There

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:50

are TV is playing and stuff. God Yeah. The last time he played was Monte Carlo. And he won four games against kick them out of it should the first first round, but he is playing stuff God and plays Sofia.

Freddie Nielsen  1:17:03

I got to see more from him. He played all right against Andy in Miami. And then he kind of fainted on court. Right. So I actually know.

Calvin Betten  1:17:12

Italians think he won the tournament in Marrakech and I was

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:17

using the final one or 2101

Freddie Nielsen  1:17:20

Yeah, we did. But I still know for me too many question marks, but I mean, it could be one of them. For me. That's that's basically it. And I think on the women's side, I think it's pretty much the same you guys, I think some players will say to the guys there for the taking on the grass Sutherlin care over the other girls, Coco. They they could smell a slam. So more so for the men's side who's who, which one of the more unforeseen ones are going to make a deep run and which one of the ones right behind you guys got to make a go for it. And then yeah, how much how much is the the Olympics gonna be talked about during the classes? grasscourt gonna be alone or people gonna keep talking about the Olympics.

1:18:00

So a dark horse on the grass is the six foot eight french french guy lost? First round, let's

Calvin Betten  1:18:07

call him as my dad. Oh, sure. You did? Yeah.

1:18:10

Well done my last first round. Yeah.

Calvin Betten  1:18:11

I said that a bit to his dad, because after the second round in Lyon, and he went on to win Lyon. All John. I see a guy expecting to be winning that tournament and be knocking for his first round new

1:18:25

calf calf calf. Don't make excuses. He's young. You can play just

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:30

about if I can just bring this back in. I didn't want us to do the Wimbledon, the Wimbledon preview right now. That comes next. I'm just I just wanted a couple of kind of fun storylines to look out for. You know, Andy, Jamie Murray. Great. The weather. Great. Emily, give me some more than these guys have given me. They're coming down.

Freddie Nielsen  1:18:48

Can I ask you just in the third mean, in your opinion that Jamie and Andrea both retiring or no worries, no return? Why? What was the what's Jamie's angle? Just this wants to play? He just wants to play once with Andy. Yeah,

Calvin Betten  1:19:01

no, I think it was it was, I think it was more related to so he is tournament director at Queen's. So II can't play that week. And he has to be on site from every day this week from today. So he also couldn't play this week either. And I think that Mike was then looking for a partner. And I think everybody who Mike asked was looking for somebody for the entirety of the grass. So him and Jamie basically agreed, I think to they'll just split for the grass and then they back together. Straight up there. Yeah, yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:33

it's just and then you've got the two LSU boys coming together on the ground. What's

Freddie Nielsen  1:19:37

Neil going to do after that then? I don't know.

Calvin Betten  1:19:39

I don't think Neil has got a partner after the not really had one. Since he split with Sandy Gonzalez. No clay with me but can't see that

Emily Webley-Smith  1:19:51

decision for the book for they already know

Calvin Betten  1:19:53

who's in the team. I don't think that changes. It's now just a case of who plays with her. Because

Freddie Nielsen  1:19:58

the king and announced on July 4, the complete list internationally anyway

Calvin Betten  1:20:03

I don't think that I don't think the list Britain list can change I think it's impossible for it to change.

Freddie Nielsen  1:20:08

Oh you mean the national team? Yeah, but I remember who was going to be accepted and who's gonna go okay there's gonna be a cut off and doubles and singles anyway, right? So it must have some closure on the on the edge. It's

Calvin Betten  1:20:20

complicated though with with how it gets selected for the Olympics. It's basically a six man team, six man team maximum. And a for the singles players get priority. So Britain has four singles players who will make the cup so they only get two doubles players. However, a doubles player in the top 10 can choose anybody inside the top 300 to play with.

Freddie Nielsen  1:20:43

Exactly. And then you have 24 teams that are just highest ranking whatever singles or doubles, then you have some where the singles players in the draw have priority and then single thing I mean, it's it's a jungle, for sure. Well,

Calvin Betten  1:20:56

I'm question I got from people I spoke to in Paris, was that the tennis could be a bit of a mess, because they said that they don't they don't open open up all of the grounds. They don't have any of the practice courts that they use at the French apparently. So the feeling is that the tennis won't be a pleasurable experience this year, the Olympics, I

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:15

believe that effect on the grass that we've got to look forward to.

Emily Webley-Smith  1:21:18

No, I think Dr. Akina is gonna go under the radar again, because she's obviously plays very well on the surface. But whether she's going to be utterly engaging in the press, I think it's probably not gonna happen. But yeah, I mean, even I don't, I think Pauline is game could transfer all right to the grass, she moves great. She has the ability to flatten it out. She actually likes her hard courts a lot more than the other Italians, nothing groundbreaking in terms of somebody so I'm a huge surprise that's going to appear in the next couple of weeks.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:50

Mine is look out for the return of Miss Gabby dobrowski I was

Freddie Nielsen  1:21:54

just gonna bring it up, look out for the return and maybe climb the ranks. There

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:59

we go. We need to look out for that. There's the grasscourt queen right there, guys. A pleasure. Always. Thank you.

Freddie Nielsen  1:22:09

Thank you, Dan. Cheers,

1:22:10

guys, just videos.

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:12

So there we have it. A little fiery episode for you. Everyone was friends at the end? Don't you worry about that. And lots of topics that I think will get you thinking, you know, and I would love to hear your comments, you know, on social media, send us a message. As always, like review the podcast, share it around. And we will be back with more in the coming weeks as we're moving into the grass court season. And yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well who who is going to pop out out of the woodwork over the next few weeks. I think the grass court surface certainly opens up the opportunity for many to start making their name and make a build up in the rankings but I hope you're well wherever you are. And we will be back next time for more but until then, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are control the controllables