From Wembley to Wimbledon with Henry Winter

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 179, of Control the Controllables. And today, I'm actually putting myself out of my comfort zone a little bit. You know, this has been a tennis podcast, over the one last 178 episodes, we have delved into the world of coaching gymnastics, we're Valorie Kondosfield, we've had David Walsh, the amazing journalist who talked about his encounter for many years with Lance Armstrong. And this is another one that's a little bit outside the box in Henry Winter. For me, the best football journalist, that's out there, he used to work for that, for the Telegraph now works for the Times. I followed his work for many years as have all of my family, and the opportunity came up to get Henry on the podcast. And I didn't want to pass that up. Because ultimately, what we're trying to do here at Control the Controllables is we're trying to unpack not just tennis, we're trying to get under the under the bonnet of sport of people the way that they work the way that they tick. And I think there's so many transferable parts that happen across sport and across life, that I really wanted to see where the conversation would take us. And it took us down lots of different roads. And yes, there's some football talk. Yes, there's some Newcastle United talk, my beloved football team. But there's also lots of talk and important topics that we touch on, including women's sport and equality in sport and not just within professional players, but also the ecosystem around that. So I'm sure you're going to absolutely love listening to Henry, but a couple of bits around tennis as well. I have to mention firstly, GB girls started in Glasgow to their their Billie Jean King Cup campaign. We had Caroline Garcia winning out in Texas, the end of year WTA finals and a big friend Iga Swiatek finished the year. world number one, and shout out to Neal skupski. And his partner Wesley cool off that have finished the year world number one. It's just such an incredible, incredible achievement and, and then Lloyd Glasspool, someone I know very well torturing him from the age of 10 has finished the year. We'll be finishing the next week in Turin as him and his partner, Harri Heliovaara have made it into the ATP end of year finals. Just absolutely incredible to see what somebody can achieve when you when you put your mind to something. And, you know, I was fortunate enough to be heavily involved in Lloyd's tennis for 15 years from a very young age. And you know, you keep going you keep turning up every single day. There'll be moments across that way I'm sure Lloyd would have thought about giving up. People around him would have thought well, he's never going to be a professional tennis player. And here he is the sixth best team in the world, making a living doing what he loves at the age of 29. And I strongly believe we'll go on even further. So a big, big, well done to them. And then lastly, Episode 108. We had a young brash Holger Rune, who came on and I was blown away with a conversation that was short, it was sweet. There wasn't a whole lot to talk about because all that Holger wanted to talk about I could talk about was was tennis and at the mere age of 17. At that time, he didn't have a great experience. But in that short conversation, what I took from it, this guy had belief and he had it in abundance. And it was absolutely incredible. And he talked about, you know, having the belief he was going to be world number one from the age of seven. You know, he is quoted many times of saying that he wants to win more. Roland Garroses that Rafael Nadal, you know, people have laughed at it. You know, I've had discussions with people in the tennis world. Where's he going to get to? You know, this belief is so strong. Is he going to plateau at 50 in the world 60 in the world 10 In the world, and I just don't see it happening. I think he's going to go on. He's gonna have an incredible career. Granted, he will have his challenges, but it's great to see another another male player make their way onto the world world scene beating Novak Djokovic last weekend in Paris for his first ATP masters 1000 event. So lots of tennis talk there. Lots more tennis to come as we as we go into the last couple of weeks of the season before we prepare for the Australian Open, but first sit back, listen, it's entertaining. There's lots of great stories. There's lots of connections across the sports. And I'm gonna pass you over to Henry Winter. So Henry winter a big welcome to Control the Controllables. How you doing?

Henry Winter  05:20

I'm very pleased to be on thanks for inviting me.

Daniel Kiernan  05:23

It's it's an honor and so are you ready? People don't know this, but this is a this is a tennis quiz for the next 30 minutes. Are you ready for the tennis quiz?

Henry Winter  05:31

I think it's gonna be six love six love to you.

Daniel Kiernan  05:34

So but I won't, I won't push you even though I know you have a tennis court in your garden. That's used as a five a side pitch. So I think that tells me a little bit that we don't want to be gone too deep into tennis. But ultimately, Sport is sport. You know, we love we love sport. And so many of these topics come across in both areas. And I can't not start Henry, you know, in, in our world in the tennis world, you know, potentially our two biggest ever stars, Roger Federer, Serena Williams, we've we've said goodbye to them with lots of Kleenex, not been a dry eye in the house the last few weeks, you know, from from the outside, what's been your take on that?

Henry Winter  06:19

Two greats who transcend their sport, I think you've seen as you would know the reaction to Roger and Serena. And it's when you refer to people by their Christian names, it's almost like you're getting to sort of Pele status, because they're just so well known or invited sort of talk to someone I said I'll Roger's retired, you know, they know who that is serene is retired. I just think when you look at it again, looking at it very much from the outside. You. What I do know is that looking at it from a football perspective, those who are at the very top often have this grace about them grace as people grace of movement, grace of playing, and I think you will associate that word grace with Roger Federer and Serena Williams, the way they conduct themselves, they're fantastic ambassadors for the game. I don't know what they're going to be doing going forward where they're going to be working for their amazing foundations, another reminder of their quality of people as well as sports people. But I just hope they're associated in the game in one way because they've inspired so many people, particularly when you look at Serena his journey and her journey with her sister, was it from the the public quarter was in Dallas, Texas, I can't remember where she where she's from, because she's she's doesn't seem to belong to America, she seems to belong to the world. Serena, there's that developed and Roger as well. I mean, Roger, I've never met him but Fedrer you know, he's just a, it just comes over as a very classy guy with his interviews. And I saw just on television, that event they had in I think it was in London, and the four of them would go Team Europe, I mean, they're going out for dinner. And I found that extraordinary way because these guys were on the on the court, they would be at each other's throats, you know, to win. And yet so you know, in a sort of, you know, dignified way. But to get to that level, Serena Williams, Roger Federerwherever you are in sport, you've got to have that killer instinct, you've got to have that visceral hunger to defeat the opponent. And yet there was all very civilized, you know, and it was quite sort of emotional. And I think they were almost in tears as they were saying goodbye to Walter Federer. And I think that is a sign of greatness, that these rivals are also friends.

Daniel Kiernan  08:28

Oh, absolutely. Henry and I think my next bit on that to bring it back into football.

Henry Winter  08:34

Thank you good.

Daniel Kiernan  08:35

If we, if we take that I guess the comparison of Roger and Serena. And this will actually subtly lead into a point that we'll get to later on in the in the chat. The comparison is Messi and Ronaldo. It's it's not Messi and Beth Mead. It's, it's Messi and Ronaldo. You know, and I think it would. Would this be that global adoration that that adoration, You know that that's happened like you say Serena almost belongs to the world. And I think in a sport of tennis, we do get that and and everyone was emotional. Everyone felt it. It's not far away from Messi and Ronaldo. Moving on from the sport as players you would think you're not what's what's going to be the reaction when that happens.

Henry Winter  09:25

There will be a stop all the clocks moment when Lionel Messi retires. Because even though he doesn't have the sort of, you know, the force of personality of a Federer or Williams, he's quite low key and obviously it's a team game. So the sort of the attention is slightly spread even even with a player of messes, caliber. I think there will be that, wow, we've lost one of the greats not simply the current generation, but of all time. I mean, I will put it's difficult to compare generations but I will put messi in the top three players of all times With Maradona and Pele and then you can argue of orders. You can argue over achievements. But it definitely, again there is this grace with Messi, the way he plays, he doesn't really cheat. And when I did a book with Michael Carrick a couple of years ago, so what he's like, what does he like to play again, and he said, it is like trying to track mercury, you know, you just go in on him. And then he just sort of moves away. And he takes he just because of the sort of low center of gravity, the heights, he turns so quickly. So there is that joy of watching him play the way he flows like a sort of river through a defense, but just the joy he brings the thought of him not being in the sport I cover any more. I mean, actually, it kind of goes to the heart as well as to the head with that emotion. But you know, we're like in this world, we're always looking for for the next icons and next generation. And I saw Erling Haaland at the weekend for Citi against Manchester United. And you look at his physical gifts, you look at his natural gifts, obviously it's mother's heptathlete, father of football and you just look at in the next generation and then bappy is still there as well. So you know, there isn't elements and maybe this is the slightly cynical ruthless nature of football you know, the king is dead long live the king were Messi and Ronaldo. You know when the two of them coming to the end of their career so think Messi is probably got. I mean, Messi will be pushing for the Ballon d'Or when he's 50 he'll just have that in him. He's just got that love again. And what I like about Messi is that you can just imagine in a few years time he will be on the beach in Barcelona, just sort of having a kickabout with kids because the love of the game is within him. And Ronaldo as well, completely different, more sort of self creative rather than a sort of God given talent like message. But again, there is that yeah, when Ronaldo goes as well, that will be that will strike , because he's been so much part of it obviously started in Manchester United, often Sporting Lisbon, and then obviously came back to United. So that will be huge. But in terms of Federer and Serena Williams, it'd be lovely to get from the outside the sheer love that they you know that they stir in people, and I'm not a fan of applause in press conferences. I do think we are sort of slightly neutral observers we should be you know that that British stiff upper lip is still there. But I still think they are probably the reaction from a lot of the tennis writers who've worked with these two greats covered their careers. I think there's more than affection for them more than respect for them. I think there's a genuine love for these two.

Daniel Kiernan  12:41

And the way that you were speaking there, Henry, it was like, when you describe Messi, you could have been describing Roger Federer, the way that you describe Cristiano Ronaldo, you could be you could be describing Rafael Nadal. You know, and I think that's, that's often the beauty of sport as well that that contrasting that contrasting style of, you know, the man made to natural you know, skill to skill to technique, you know, getting getting those things.

Henry Winter  13:13

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to me you mentioned Nadal when I'm old enough to have watched and covered his, his uncle play for for Barcelona he was and it was interesting. We are obviously listening to your podcast The there is quite a connection between football and tennis. I mean, the last year I've interviewed to go Luis, who I think was nationally ranked tennis player growing up in France, and Kasper Schmeichel, as well. I mean, one of my favorite pitch I think Peter Schmeichel used to play tennis a bit my favorite sight of Peter Schmeichel was him and Eric Cantona and a very nice hotel on the banks of the Bosphorus in Istanbul for one of the most United's games against Galatasaray and they weren't playing tennis so I can imagine the two of them were playing chess, and I just thought, Wow, you got to one of those two of the most ferocious competitors in the game sort of working out the Queen's Gambit,

Daniel Kiernan  14:05

but just thought you were gonna say 1996 I go back to St. James's Park and Peter Schmeichel, they well yeah, well that was so it was it was that the game we slaughtered them.

Henry Winter  14:22

Yeah, the five nil game

Daniel Kiernan  14:24

that. Well, that gives me a smile and when I used to play I used to write down when I was struggling mentally on the tennis court. My coaches said to me write something down that makes you happy. So I so I had so I had a I had a bit of paper in my bag that said Newcastle five, Manchester United nil with all of the goalscorers, we're gonna have a Darren Peacock I think scored the first and then then Ginola and then it came Ferdinand maybe, well, bad goal to to make it five nil, but I'm talking about the one nil When Newcastle were going to win the league and and we couldn't get the ball passed Schmeichel and then blinking Cantona as he did every single time at the end of that season, popped up at the back post to score to win one nil, which was ultimately the match that that went on to win Man United that league. So you can come on my podcast, Henry, but don't be. Don't be talking too much about Schmeichel and Cantona. Finish your story but no more Schmeichel and Cantona

Henry Winter  15:30

I'll move it around this Michael household so his son Casper was a good tennis player when he was younger and I just said to him sort of threw in the comment. Are there any advantages from having been a tennis player or enjoying tennis and going to Wimbledon and watching it and being a goalkeeper and I was thinking in that sort of slightly sort of layman's might have might speed off the line which you obviously which is the essence of particularly in the serve and volley era of tennis? And he said yeah, he would watch I think it wasn't I think it was anyway one of the great volleyers one of those who just served and and sprinted you would know better I can't remember which player it was. But he said he would analyze that player that speed of reaction because with a particularly in the rules now with var and the assistants and the referees, just checking the goalkeeper stays on the line pounces and also just the natural flow of the game. Your speed off the off the line as a goalkeeper to narrow the angle of an opposing attacker coming in. He Yeah, he said he found that tennis was really important for him in developing I asked Jan Oblak, the Atletico Madrid goalkeeper, and he was similar. He said that he'd learned from tennis as well. So I think that's good. And I mean, we have this great Academy system in this country where I guess it's same in in tennis, where kids go in very young, and they don't necessarily have that familiarity or absorption of lessons and skills and mechanical as well as sort of mental skills from other sports. But a lot of footballers who've got to the top have also played in other sports, which gives them awareness and and what have you. I mean, Scott Parker, ex England player, he was a very good rugby player as a kid, he was a scrum half.

Daniel Kiernan  17:23

He must be a scrum half

Henry Winter  17:25

With his height but he was very quick and you know, wet again. And his dad said, Are you gonna have dabbled a big rugby fan? And he said, Scott, you're gonna have a great career as a rugby player. And he was great. No, no, I keep on having these big hairy number eights coming, knocking me over I'd rather be a nice football playing field that so you can learn from from other sports. And I think particularly for goalkeepers and that awareness acceleration off the line to incoming danger, I think particularly works obviously,

Daniel Kiernan  17:53

if you're working on absolutely well, we massively at the, at the Academy out in Spain, we massively encourage our players to do multi sports and, and I think there's I think there's there's two things for me and I again, a lot of the tennis players like you, Andy Murray's very good footballer Rafael Nadal is a very good footballer, you know, you'll tend to get a lot of the tennis players that played football. And when you analyze that, all sports comes down to management of time and space. You know, so if you think if you think the best footballers are the ones that are able to create space, and move the ball fast, so the controlling time here, no defenders are able to shut space, you know, and give the player less time on the ball, you know, in tech and tennis is the same. So you if you have a basic understanding of controlling of time and space, which all sports do that in a different way, then it sets you in a good place. And the second point for me, you know, you watch the best players and we take Holland, I smile when you mentioned him because I think, you know, from a mentality point of view, and I would imagine you guys will see this in the media. I think the players give a lot away and he he came in and some people you can see a trembling on the big the big signing fee, and you know that the transfer fees that are going out there, he just as cool as a cucumber in every single thing that he does. And that comes into what we would talk about performance skills, you know, your ability to perform under pressure, your ability to to be focused to be switched on, you know, and I remember him saying a couple of weeks ago, my dream is to touch the ball five times and score five goals. You don't have to have that sort of Outlook and and to bring the goalkeeper bit in Henry. I use it all the time with the younger kids is I say look, you are saving but I know they've got a passion for tennis. I'll say you are saving a penalty to win the World Cup for your country right now. You know, how do you look? And it's that kind of getting Ready to perform a look, you know, eyessticking out your head, good athletic position, you know, and these these, these go across all the different sports. And I think for anybody listening, it is so important that your child is playing multiple sports, you know, one, you don't know what their passion is going to be, you know, Scott Parker was it rugby was at football, but two the way that it transfers across but but Henry before I move into a couple of bigger subjects, you know, you are the subject of this podcast, you know, people want to know Henry Winter a little bit more, and you know, where to tell us about a couple of things. What I what I'd love to know is one, what was your spot when you were younger? Or sports, you know, and to what level did you play? But secondly, how did you get into the industry of journalism that you are excelling in today?

Henry Winter  20:54

I quite like the idea of being paid to wander around the world going to places I can't even spell. Without Google Maps and writing about football. I just, I was I had a sort of, fairly straightforward. Growing up in London. I was a choirboy in Westminster Abbey, so it's probably a bit different but it was it was quite emotional actually watching the You know, the Queen's funeral the other day and, and just obviously, everyone was totally absorbed in it. And I was going that was my class, though. So but that I just played football obsessed with football. It's it's all been football and what it's done. I mean, just coming back to tennis and talking about tennis players actually, as goalkeepers. I just remember one game we had we had a sponsors game. And the sponsor had some top tennis players on their books and top sports people. So I think just a few years back to back 20 years back so Daley Thompson played up front, and I played up front with him, which was just ridiculous because he was he was a really good football as well as obviously being, you know, one of the greatest athletes, athletes the world's ever seen. And he was fantastic. And I was sort of huffing and puffing around, but the opposing goalkeeper was Tim Henman. And that was when the gentleman Tim and all that you know, and strawberries and cream and did he have that sort of hunger because of his background and all that. And I saw close up, okay, it was only in a sponsor's charity match. But Tim Henman was in goal, the opposite. He's ferocious will to win. And then someone explained to him as I said, this is, you know, I cover footballers, I've seen what the hunger and Henman's got that hunger. And I was, I was through one of the one on goal. And we've been told, listen, be careful, because Henman was playing obviously, the exceptionally high level at the time. So just respect it. You know, in those games, it's like, you absolutely respect you should respect the opposition anyway. So I thought, Well, if he comes out, I'm going to hurdle him or just, you know, just make sure there's absolutely no physical contact, he came out and just cleared me out. And I said, penalty, and I think it was a it was a penalty. And I had sort of jumped out the way because he was absolutely coming through me. And then he was just going, you know, that was not a penalty. And I just thought, I changed my view of Henman, I've never met him before and obviously to Wimbledon and CD play, and, you know, a mad, you know, that side hope to win as a, as an Englishman were able to, you know, tennis is coming home and all that. And then I just thought, wow, this is a really, really competitive individual. So I thought that was good. And that's what was what I often think of back about that is that you don't really know when to do so if I think I'm gonna criticize a player because he got the hunger. I often think of that element. You know, they it shows itself in different ways. So yeah, so I was fortunate upbringing in London, love football, always, always played, always went to sort of games all over London, and then went to university and university were actually brilliant, because they basically said, as long as you in the first team and sports editor, the student newspaper, so I knew what I wanted to do for 1415. They said, You know, we'll let you miss a few lectures. So I played non League, in Scotland still got the scars and loved it. I was the only English person in the football club. I was certainly the only public school person in the football club. And they absolutely ripped me to bits as you would expect for the first sort of one first four years now for the first couple of months. And then as football, you play sport, it's a meritocracy. It's about can you do it? Do you fit in? Have you got an ego or whatever? And it was four wonderful years. So and then the day after my last exam, which I think was on Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky again. I think it was Tolstoy because I could spell Tolstoy I couldn't spell Dostoyevsky doing Russian literature. For some reason. I thought it was maybe an easy course. I'd seen a couple of Tolstoy's films. The next day, I just went straight down To London hammered on doors and Fleet Street, so one of them opened.

Daniel Kiernan  25:04

I want to I want to carry on with that, Henry. But you've just made me smile so much with the Tim Henman story and I can't not share my Tim Henman story because it's quite similar. And so going back to 1996, you know, round about that time, obviously, euros, you know, the Euro time. And it what was the Lipton championships, which was the famous tournament in Miami. And the Lawn Tennis Association had taken all of the top juniors out to Miami for a big training block, you know, big training camp, which was all very nice, but very hard work, as you would imagine. And earlier on in the training camp, we played football, as we often did, and the football became so competitive, you know, nearly all of us had played for clubs, you know, I played for Middlesboro when I was young, young, you know, some of them were played for Newcastle Man United, you know, the, we had some decent footballers. And as we're playing on Miami Beach, they'd wound me up a little bit, which was relatively easy to do to a 16 year old from from Newcastle. And I had retaliated in probably not the way that I'm most proud of. But the next day, the next weekend, Tim Henman, who was world number three at the time, and was playing the Lipton championships The following week, he turned up to play in the big 11 aside match that we'd been talking about. And I will tell the story from the start the match started. And Tim Henman was no more than two inches away from me for the whole first 15 minutes of the match. And he was literally holding on to my shorts. And as we went in the ball went and we went in for a tackle. And as I went in, I was on the floor. The next thing I knew sand was being kicked into my face I just had, I had a whole face full of sand. And I was I wasn't good at keeping my temper. So I stood up. And I think maybe an expletive came out and I looked at this person and just seeing red. I've never thrown a punch in my life. But I was I was close. And I looked at it, who the person was and it was Tim Henman. And because as I saw him, I kind of just went and just and just moved away.

Henry Winter  27:30

Can you imagine if you'd thrown a punch at Tim Henman, it would have been like pushing Nelson off his column, there would have been questions in the house. I have

Daniel Kiernan  27:39

I have since thought about this. Because coming from Newcastle, you already frowned upon in the sport of tennis, you know, it's a little bit of a southern sport. So the lot, I saw the headlines flush before my eyes, thug from Newcastle knocks out our golden child or whatever it might be. And the match carried on a side note, I don't need to say but my ego does is I scored a hat trick and we won the match. And as an as we were walking off Miami Beach, Tim fair play to him came up to me and said, Look down. I'm really sorry about that. He said, the coaches told me you had a temper. So my job was to wind you up so that you got sent off. So that it was so then we're 11 against 10. So fairplay he spoke up about it, but that ferocious competitive spirit was certainly there. And this was three days before you started the tournament.

Henry Winter  28:35

Just it's just a side question to that when you've got a temper like you have and all the top athletes have that far within, how do you channel that temper positively, because it can be a great fuel.

Daniel Kiernan  28:51

I think that I mean, it's something we do a lot on now. And I think if we go back to those days as well, I was living at Bisham Abbey at the time at the National Tennis School. So I would have seen you Henry, I'm sure at that time. And, you know, we used to obviously get a glimpse of all the footballers, and I think it was the 98 year when Glenn Hoddle Glenn Hoddle brought in was an Eileen URI. Yeah. So at that time, it was frowned upon. It was like, how weird is this coach bringing in some kind of sports nut sports psych nut? So and I go back to us at that age, when we had a sports psychologist, we used to just laugh and take the piss if I'm honest,

Henry Winter  29:32

It was the former landlady. I mean, she was she was not, you know, she didn't have any qualifications. And she went in and you know, when Ray Parlour she put her hands on him and Ray Parlour said short back and sides, please. It was a slightly skeptical generation. But for Darren Anderton, he was absolutely 100% Believing in her but I think football needed to to go down so slightly more qualified. intellectual route to psychology. Well, I

Daniel Kiernan  30:02

think, Henry, but to answer your question, I think, if I'm honest, I didn't have the support in that. Because at the time, and when you're young, and this is the thing with tennis, and look, I'm not I can't say fully on football, but there's going to be the challenges were football. But tennis is an individual sport. You know, so you're, you don't get like tennis academies don't pick up players and pay for them to come and play at their tennis academy, you actually are paying to go to the tennis academy, you know, the national tennis academy official, maybe that did happen to me. But you are, you are on your own. And you. And if I look back to that period, I didn't have the support, I was I was insecure, I didn't believe I was any good, you know, even though I was doing very well. And I was one of the best juniors in the world, you know, in doubles. So so if I fast forward now to 2022, I think that support is so much better in place. Because if I even to myself as a coach and I, I brought a sports psychologist on board from Australia, who consults with the Academy. And, and my whole concept is we are training up as tennis coaches to be sports psychologists in the day to day, you know, so I think in terms of how most places are going now, there is those extra layers of support. So taking, taking that emotion, and that anger, you know, it's about ultimately about tolerating the difficult emotions that you have, and still being able to put your mind on to something that's most important. And, and that's now my view of what mental toughness is, you know, it's not that the mentally tough athletes or people in this world are, are absolutely still experiencing difficult emotions, you can't switch the emotion off. Whereas I think there was, there was a, an era of just suck it up, just deal with it, there was an error of where you shouldn't be feeling that, you know, there was, there was such an old fashioned way. So I think probably a lot of my anger came from almost internal battles I was having that, that I couldn't make sense of. So then I thought I was mentally weak, because I was experiencing these difficult things. You know, I mean, Tim Henman didn't know that but probably at that time, I was going through some real challenges and confidence and a lad from the Northeast living away from home missing home, you know, in this industry starting to get into this industry where I didn't always feel I fitted, you know, all of these bits that but the last bit to finish off that story, Henry, is I'm so lucky, I had that experience. And that difficulty as well, because that's what's built the resilience in me and enabled me to, to go on and do what I do now. You know, so there is the element now that we give too much support, and almost Stop, stop the individuals experiencing the difficult, difficult things because which which may be maybe prevents people from developing in the future as well.

Henry Winter  33:20

I think that's why it's Alex Ferguson is the greatest manager I've covered because he had those people skills, obviously, sports psychologists, so important, the qualifications, that they have the understanding and the sort of the emotional empathy, but also with managers. Now they've got so much on their plate, dealing with media for qn hour after a match dealing with sponsors, managing up dealing with board members, a broad range of players from different countries, different characters. It's more and more demanding, where Sir Alex Ferguson when he was managing his people skills, and one of his many, many strengths, that incredible memory. So if a kid was coming through the academy at Carrington at Manchester United, and Ferguson would know about them, he said, How's your schoolwork going? He would talk to their parents talk to them by the names, if they had siblings there who were doing their homework by the side of the pitch or in the canteen, or wherever Ferguson would would know their names. He was just unbelievably smart. Probably one most inspiring two or three people I've met in life and you can see why Harvard, the business school that wants him to talk about leadership, but it was just whenever I talked to former Manchester United players mentioned it players of his era that or same question I always asked him what his team's like. And the team talk for him and I'm sure you do it with with people at your academy often wasn't very much about the sort of the battle the sporting battle ahead, which was going to come when the referee blew his whistle or the buzzer sounded and they had to walk out at Old Trafford or wherever. It was all about moments in their life and their journey that I've got Paul Scholes who had asthma as a kid, one or two players who might come from sort of broken homes Cantona coming from overseas, the whole world, the French establishment against him, Crystal Palace fans against him, and he would just bring elements out of them. And I would have loved you know, as a journalist, you get a ringside seat, but you're not in the ring. And I would have that's why it's fascinating to hear, say, Michael Carrick from your neck of the woods northeast, great hotbed of footballing talent. And just he would say, well, Ferguson would occasionally talk about swans, geese flying overhead, and he said, there are a team, you had the one at the front, and then you had the rest behind. And then one would go to the front. And it's all about working as clockwork working as a team, he would talk about his own backgrounds, the shipyards of Glasgow, and it will come back to sort of certain themes, which I'm sure you do with people who come to your academy cameraderie, that teamwork, that essence of being a sort of sporting union, because Ferguson was obviously a huge union man sort of growing up talking about that. And then also the sort of pride in what you do, and in your work, and in your family, that when you go out there, you're not simply representing yourself, you are representing a team, a club, your family, you know, all of those who have helped you on this, this journey. And I just think that one reason I feel very privileged to my job is that sport doesn't just teach about sport, it teaches about life. And if you listen to Ferguson, and then many episodes, I've had the hairdryer treatment from Ferguson, I've also been privileged to sit in his office and just listen to him. And few people speak as beautifully as Ferguson and I interviewed. I've interviewed most people in football, not Messi or Ronaldo, but pretty much what you're Pele and Bobby Charlton and so many great people. Ferguson talks so beautifully, you know, His English is just is just exemplary. But just to listen to him, you come out of it, a feeling enthused and be feeling I've learned something about life. I've learned something about dealing with adversity. I mean, Ferguson, you know, those darkest hours maybe like after Benfica or when he was being questioned early on in the match. He's mentioned it career, that remarkable resilience. So I again, I think yeah, sport, you know, Federer Williams, you think particularly Serena Williams, what she went through to get to where she did there, I'm sure there was racism, I saw I'm sure there was an element of classism about how sort of she stepped up and to break through those ceilings. To be such a role model is just a lesson for life as well as sport.

Daniel Kiernan  37:50

I told you no Cantona, no Schmeichel. So you've brought bloody Ferguson in there, you're determined, you're determined to get the feeling, feeling bringing back those memories.

Henry Winter  38:00

I've got a list here I'm going through. The class of 92 now.

Daniel Kiernan  38:06

In terms of in terms of, in terms of what you're saying, in I love it, and it, it comes back to connection for me. And a quick question I want to ask you, actually, so, you know, we're taught, taking that sports psychology bit as well. And that's, that's been my theory on it, that in order to help someone's mind, you have to be connected to them. Which, which, which I guess traditionally it was go and see the sports psychologist, you're struggling mentally, that's not a that's not a basis to to receive help. You know, it's not just a case of go and, you know, listen to this, and then everything's gonna be okay. It's a it's a process. And what you're saying about Ferguson there, he very blatantly had such a strong relationship and was connected deeper than just even the person you know, into their families. So now you can actually start to change what's happening up above, you know, and you can help with perspective and you can help with all of these skills. Is that where the job of being the national coach is so much more difficult, because you saying Alex Ferguson, but he is is with these players almost 24/7. In on the national coaches are receiving players almost like rugby ball and players that don't want to go, especially during the bloody Nations Cup, which even you know, I can see from a mile off, that was the most ridiculous thing ever, straight after the season finished. How does the national coach so let's take make this about England, which is what where our passion lies. How can Gareth Southgate create that same level and deepness of relationship and connection with these players to have the impact on them from a mental side as somebody like Alex Ferguson has been able to over the years.

Henry Winter  39:58

Southgate and Ferguson are completely different characters completely different careers. But I think where they do have a connection is the emotional empathy that Southgate has he's got brilliant people skills, I think maybe going back to 96. I'm trying not to mention any Manchester United players in this but going back to 96, when Gary Neville was in the to the England team, obviously Southgate missed that penalty. And when he got the England job, he basically said that any split the media given nothing will compare to having sort of 4000 abusive letters for when he missed the penalty at Euro 96, including from someone who was in jail who said at Southgate, this penalty ran out of his partner and attacked every German car, he could because England lost the Germany or penalties again. So I think once you've been through the eye of the storm like that, you've got an experience, and you can relate to players who may be getting sort of critical headlines. I just think Southgate's just a genuinely likeable individual. And if you look at the sort of he's changed the culture. I mean, you made that point about players maybe not so keen to report for duty, they have been under Southgate, he's changed that mentality. He was also a very clever he did so certain sort of technical things to change it, he went over to the Super Bowl, and had a look at how they do the Media Week or media day leading up to the Super Bowl, and how every player comes out and talks. And he did similar before the World Cup in Russia, because there'd been a disconnect between the players and the media, and most significantly, a damaging a disconnect between the players. And the fans. There was a famous game in Malta at halftime and the fans turned their back on the team and went back into so for letter, it picked up their flags, and it was just a it was an arrow to the heart of the England players. We don't respect you anymore message from the players. So he wanted to rebuild that because Southgate having seen how the shirt weighs heavily how all the years of hurts is just, it's just wired into the minds of these young England players, and how it inhibits them from expressing themselves as they do for their clubs. So he changed all that. So he had a sort of Super Bowl style events at St. George's Park. And all the players came out to talk to just by chance it was a day after Raheem Sterling had been pilloried in the paper for his gun tattoo and Raheem sat there He's very calm, sanguine individual he sat down and explained the journey that he'd been on the fact that his father had been shot when he was in Jamaica as a two year old. And he just talked about what the gun tattoo meant for him. It wasn't a celebration of violence, it was just a reminder of his own journey and a connection with his father. And that we built the relationship with the press car what I remember listening to Kyle Walker, and I said you're going into a World Cup What was it like watching a World Cup growing up in in Sheffield? He said well, I lived on this housing estate and we didn't have a television but our next door neighbor did on the sort of sixth seventh floor of their tower block and I went into that and he had you know this was just just stunned me when he said this he said our television or neighbours television because they didn't have one was you had to put 50 p coins in to it it was like a meter on the television to get it going. And he was just explaining so that was completely normal. And you know when what I think was 2002 World Cup you might have been watching it he said Well Michael Owen scored and then we were ferociously putting 50 pieces in just to see if he could see off Brazil and so just to get that connection and just to remind that very clever of staff get to remind the media remind the fans that this is flesh and blood they're talking about this is not just sort of egos in gated communities 100 grand a week or whatever that there are people there and that chat changed and they're a very likeable bunch there's that slight sort of All Black elements to them that you said you bring a psychologist from from New Zealand over there brilliant at that that understanding that you know you walk in the footsteps of others that the sweet the shed you leave the dressing and tidy then when you got in there respect after after an interview you put your seat back under the under the table and good citizens and that is why you know there are few individuals in the England squad who weren't say we're we're good people so southgate's changed all that he's almost like a sort of psychologists that way his work with it now they wanted to tactical things we'd like Southgate to do and to you know respond in the in the second half when Mancini's flooding midfield in the Euro final, but he's definitely changed the mood around the camp. Obviously everything will be defined by how far he gets in the World Cup in Qatar but yeah, as a as an individual he is. He's a good man, because it's a sadness of modern life and you probably see it with some of your younger Academy players. A lot of kids come from broken homes, and there are a lot of one thing with with England a lot of the players have been on journeys particularly early in their life with very strong mothers without necessarily a father figure, so that Ferguson type that Southgate type becomes even more important as a mentor as a man I remember just finally on this I remember when Arsene Wenger left Arsenal, and for the preceding three, four years, I've been critical of famous and it's outstayed his welcome. And then when he finally did go, obviously, they were worthy emotional tributes. And I got one of my son's friends who's about 20 to 23. He just said to me, said, Henry, you don't understand that Arsene Wenger is more than a football manager to my generation. My father left excuse me, my father left when when I was very young, and the only consistent stable male role model I've ever had in my life has been Arsene Wenger. So again, it's just that reminder of the power of the manager, the power of the individual, and the importance of people skills, which venga clearly had, and Southgate has been focused on was just the exemplar of it all.

Daniel Kiernan  46:03

And on that, Henry, we're talking about connection and connection with fans connection with the media. Where do you sit in terms of and I guess I'll say where I sit on this and be great to hear your view. podcasts have helped or helping to change that a little bit, because I guess before you, you would get a snippet, you'd maybe get a snippet and, you know, players of all sports, you know, athletes out there, that they're not going to get into too much. You know, the famously Andy Murray's Andy Murray said, you know, tongue in cheek, he said, Who do you want to win the Euros? He said, you know, anyone that plays England, you know,

Henry Winter  46:48

I have to say, I respected him even more for that. I mean, mainly because I lived in Scotland for four years. I honestly, I would have respected him less if he said, Oh, of course, I want England to do well, he's Scottish. Nobody is.

Daniel Kiernan  47:01

But if we take the context, that would be one example. I think what I'm actually listening, I'm in the middle of listening to an Alex Scott, Alex Scott podcast, you know,

Henry Winter  47:11

Fantastic book out, by the way.

Daniel Kiernan  47:15

I mean, it means I'm listening to the podcast, but you can tell it's gonna be but it's getting that extra context that that then and we get this all the time with with with this podcast, you know, young British players, whoever it might be that comes on that then the fans are more connected, they understand their story, they, they, they have a bit more empathy back in on that, that that relationship then goes goes two ways. Whereas maybe previously, it was an excerpt from a conversation that would go into and obviously you're, you've been in the world of print for many, many years. How How do you feel the podcast world? Is it? Is it a helping hindrance to what you do? And what's your what's your thoughts on podcasting?

Henry Winter  48:01

I always laugh when people say you're a print journalist. I mean, I've got a I've got a few people who follow me on social media, I do television, radio, have written scripts for football films I've written, you know, journalism is just a message. And whether it's in you know, 45, 50 words in a misspelled tweet, which I'm quite good at, or whether it's, you know, 120,000 word book, I've written books on on England, but it's all about getting the message over there. So I think podcasts have been fantastic. I think, you know, I just makes me laugh when people say our social media will be the death of mainstream media. In fact, what social media has done is shone a light on pay it basically people whose opinions you can trust, removing myself, because I make mistakes on Twitter. But there are quite a few of my colleagues, not simply at the times, but other, you know, the Telegraph, the male who when they tweet, something, the podcasts, the fans forums, the all the fan sites, just take it so right. He's written that she's written that it's it's gospel, and then they go and have all their phones and react to it. So ironically, social media has actually shown basically, that you hope the majority of sports journalist, journalists, you can trust what they say, because we have to research because we have to stand things up with context, because we're fairly aware of libel laws content and what you can and can't say legally. So So yes, that but what is also been very good coming back to football, this generation of players, early 20s. They're quite use now to and I've seen in my own kids, I've actually thought of putting their lives out in public. So to social media, not simply I put the kettle on I had a boring day, but I'm going through issues with mental health and talking about that big because they know that it will help other people out there. And so I find actually this is a very expressive generation. So if I go and interview excuse me, I'm trying not to mention any Manchester United players so for example if I go and interview Marcus Rashford you know a match United

Daniel Kiernan  50:16

Shearer story.

Henry Winter  50:18

I tell you what shear shear is? Well, I chased shear around a golf course once because I was doing a book on there's a chapter in a book on penalties. And you know how you know Allen slightly does amazing work for the So Bobby Watson Foundation, and there was a Bobby Robson foundation event. In fact, it's a cliff your old training ground, Middlesborough, which has got a lovely golf course next to it. So I got an A buggy and then sort of chased chased him around. He was absolutely brilliant on the art of of penalty taking. So there's your Shearer story. And I won't mention he could have gone to the next United Kingdom There are saying, Yeah, it's a very expressive generation, because they've got they want. I got something wrong factually in a tweet about Wayne Rooney. And he replied back, this was a few years back, and he replied and said, This is the reason for it. And I think that's good. If I get something wrong, whether it's in print, whether it's almost literally radio, television, your famous podcast, I want to be called out about it, because that's right, because it shows there is a relationship, a connection there and also, you know, I shouldn't be getting things wrong.

Daniel Kiernan  51:24

I'm gonna I'm gonna move gears slightly. And I'm gonna go to a quick quiz. Now, it's an opinion, it's an opinion quiz. So you don't there's no wrong answers, but it's going to lead me into the next topic. And I think you know, that my first question on it, Henry is and if you think of the the top 10 most famous sports people over the last 15 years for awesome names out what comes to your mind, which names

Henry Winter  51:57

scoles Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Nicky bought Eric Cantona. Gary Pallister how many just was it just Manchester United players. That I will if I can, what of all sports

Daniel Kiernan  52:11

all sports, sports people by World Sports.

Henry Winter  52:15

I will start with the greatest sports individual this great country has ever seen. Sir Bobby Charlton for club and for country 66 The most important moment, Bobby Moore who I have the privilege to meet again, top sports people Grace Lea Williamson, the lionesses captain, I would definitely have her in there. Because she's just a fantastic ambassador. She's involved in a couple of orphanages, as well as being a fantastic leader, great interviewee smiling person. You know, you just think Wow, she's an inspiration for a generation. Definitely. Alex Ferguson can mention him. Paul Scholes, I mean, just no one hit a ball more truly. And then probably I've finished with Sir Kenny Dalglish, I think for his leadership of a grieving club grieving community grieving city during Hillsborough, was just was just extraordinary. And really, basically exhausted him and he had to walk away from Liverpool. Come in, when I've worked in two books with him. He always says one more he gets to keep me. But the first book I did with him was the first time he'd really spoken about what happened at Hillsborough. And just the sort of the pressure it put on him. And, again, Kenny being Kenny, he would try to sort of deflect it away and just say, you know, the farm is the most important things, the you know, the 9697 Liverpool fans who tragically passed away, you know, he would always be focused on them. And Marina, his wife walked through the womb where we're talking that said, Kenny, you really have to open up about this because we have so many letters from the families who just said thank you for standing by us when no one else did when the Westminster establishment when other you know other authorities in society the state had actually basically turned against the Liverpool fans disgracefully and since proven erroneously. So yeah, he's a remarkable individual as well as a player that I was a Liverpool fan growing up but it's marked him as a player with that hunger with that team mindedness with that eye for a goal I for a pass, just tactically brilliant won the title it with with two clubs. And when when I finished the book, the publisher said, We want a big name to do the foreword. And Ken immediately said, Alec, Alex Ferguson will do it. And I said, Well, there's a chance After the book say why you two didn't really get on? He said no, no, Alex is good as gold rim up. So this is sorry to come back to Manchester United again. But I rang Ferguson up at Manchester United's Old training ground the cliff and it's second chance and he said the manager will talk to you at seven o'clock tomorrow morning. Basically Don't be late. And it was it was on the phone. I rang in at 10 o'clock at night. Come on. said I've got training at seven o'clock in the morning. You know, I can't believe any of your players will be out you know, probably one or two there might still be coming in. So it's three questions I said what was Kenny likes to play and he spoke beautiful as folks always does about you know, what a great player I worship Dennis law but Kenny was even better 102 caps legend for Scotland, Celtic Liverpool. So what was he like? So managing won the title with two clubs, obviously, allegedly, to come on. What's it? What's your third question? I've got training. I said, Well, what's it like as a as a person? Because Ferguson has got a huge array of friends, whether it's within football, obviously family connections, racing, whatever. And I said, Well, Kenny just seems to have a he said to me, he said, Well, you know, what do you think of Kenny as a person? I said, Well, he seems to have an incredibly tight support network around him in terms of Marina, the kids, Alan Hansen, but it's a bit you know, he's got sort of three or four really close friends and Ferguson, you only need four people to carry a coffin and put the phone down. And that was that was just sort of, I mean, classic Ferguson. So again, you know, whether it's books, whether it's interviews, so actually I've had this opportunity to interview these great and current great players as well. And managers is a great privilege

Daniel Kiernan  56:40

Your answer says so much and takes me to the next bit Henry because we live in our world you know we live in our world i My question was the most famous sports people in the world. You Oh wow. But no, but no, but let's just if you just bear with me a second. Naturally, you went to football completely understandably, completely understandably. You know, some of the ones that would jump to my head would go I probably got a tennis you know, your Federer, Nadal, Serena Williams Tatlin Tiger Woods, Messi, Ronaldo. However, one thing we've both done, is we've mentioned one woman, you know, you, you mentioned Leah Williamson, I mentioned Serena Williams, you know, and I think this is a very reality of, of the sports industry, the sports world, you know, that, that women are fighting, they're fighting to get their, their names out there, their faces out there that the respect that they absolutely deserve. Now, as someone who is as frontline as yourself, in more football than anything else, you know, how, how real is the problem, you know, and when I'm talking about the ecosystem, not just not just the athletes, but it might be the journalists, it might be the coaches, it might be, you know, everyone that's surrounding, you know, we every now and then in a big major event happens and we'll get on to the lionesses in a minute. It then shines a light it feels for a short period of time, and then it all kind of falls back away again. And we're back to where we almost were. So from, from your perspective, how big a problem is it a quality within sport?

Henry Winter  58:29

I think it's improving. I think in football, I think the media certainly has been far more sports and probably writing about women's football on and off for, for 30 years. And you get to know people like Hope Powell and what she's done for the game. You get to know people like Emma Hayes, and what a remarkable coach she is for, for Chelsea. But just these players, I mean, the you know, they're really good. I mean, you mentioned Alex Scott earlier, I mean, her generation of players what they had to go through starting out, I mean, just a small little snapshot of this. It was I think it's about 20 years ago, there was a charity game, I had to get a media team up. And one of our players was Amy Lawrence, who was then at The Guardian observer. Now the Athletic, and we were waiting in the tunnel. We got to use Wembley, we were playing an FA 11. And the chief executive of the FA walked through the tunnel and said, Well, she can't play and I said, she can play. I'm the captain. I picked her. I said, Well, she can't play and I said, well, she's playing because she's our best player. And we actually had a stand to with the FA with the governing bodies of the game. We should be promoting grassroots football football at any level. And anyway, we played and I think she she scored but if that was just a sort of snapshots of the sort of the, you know, the male dominated elements for I think it's definitely changing. And I think social media helps because the players have accounts they can spread the word But there's a I think it's maybe it's a societal thing as well, as you know, sports is a meritocracy. But this is this is one of the elements. I mean, I get gone into football journalism because I wanted to, because of, you know, volleys and free kicks, whereas now the job is I write a lot about racism. I write about Islamophobia. We've got a World Cup coming up in Qatar. So I write about, you know, human rights, migrant workers, how they're being treated. misogyny. So yeah, and I think I wouldn't necessarily say maybe it is a slightly more enlightened media generation, maybe it's the social the subtle landscape has changed. Maybe I think also sponsors and clubs are realizing that actually, you can get 50,000 went to the North London Derby, the Met the women's North London, Derby, 47 and a half, I think, well, there you go. I think they sold 52,000 as well. So I just think that that showed that showing the sponsors that showing the clubs that there's money to be made, and broadcast as well broadcasts would be fantastic the way they've come in and back. Also, we're fortunate that this collection of lionesses I went for a coffee the other day with Alessia Russo certainly did that amazing back he'll go, Sweden, the World Cups are finished with four goals. Manchester, Manchester United. But she was, so I went for coffee with her Wilmslow just south of Manchester, she turned up on our own, we had a coffee and a chat, I actually went through I've got some clips on an iPad and went through some of the goals and got me got her to talk me through. She was eloquent. She'd been obviously over to America, University of North Carolina. This is a very expressive, socially aware, unbelievably talented and confident generation. And I think that's fantastic. But then you look over to the states, and you look over to you know, the scandal about abuse that sort of just be sort of confirmed by the official report. And, again, it's a reminder of the, you know, the journey still to go.

Daniel Kiernan  58:41

And where does it go next? Because even just having a little luck before, before this chat, it was, you know, you're looking at really 1000 2000 ticket sales last year, the average is, I think, up to about 9000. Now, for the WSL this year, so the lionesses winning the euros is had an impact without a question. But I go to a, again, a comment that I saw on social media the other day, Coco Gauff, the young, young tennis player, and she, she said in there was a picture of her alongside Serena Williams, and she said, I saw somebody who looked like me dominating the game. So I thought I could do it also, you know, and it is that it's, you know, if you can see it, you can be it. You know, and you know, I take I've got two daughters, you know, it's terrible in Spain, honestly, like, it just, if you're a girl in Spain, you can dance. You can play tennis. You can maybe play golf, but you can almost forget football.

Henry Winter  1:02:09

Barcelona, Barcelona hold the world record.

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:18

Yeah. And I would say maybe in some of the biggest cities, you know where we are, it's a little bit more backwards. But but it's but when I had the when we had the euros on and to see my daughters in England or playing Sweden at this time on the on the on the Thursday night, the excitement that they had, and they showed, and if we can get that more into the mainstream, there's absolutely no reason why it won't change because of AI. Henry pull it into tennis. And I guess my next question, which I'm not really asking, but to go along the lines of I if I if we think of over the last 10 or 15 years, the biggest names in female sports, you probably a naming six or seven out of 10 tennis players, you know, you might name I mean, you yourself will be a little bit more mind onto onto the women's footballers. But from Serena, Venus, Maria Sharapova, you know, you, you might jump into to the odd golfer, the odd athlete, but in tennis, it's something we want to do better. But it's something that definitely has been done, I would say better in tennis than any other sport. And if we talk about the TV rights, we talked about the prize money. There's a quality coming in now across all of the grand slams. So so how, how do we build on this further? How do we get it more into the eyes of these young girls seeing people that are like them doing doing what they potentially could be doing as well? And I know you're a big advocate of this. I know you're someone that's really supported this over the years, Henry, and I thank you for that. But how do we how do we push it out and make it even more mainstream?

Henry Winter  1:04:59

The women's teams all play their club fixtures at the men's ground, what is considered the men's ground but actually should be completely shared. We saw it with the North London Derby, as you said, 47,000 people there commercially it makes sense. Morally, I think it it should be there as well. If you can train on adjacent training pitches, why not have the stadium as well, you've got these fantastic stadiums, why should they just be used for corporate events for the rest of the week? Why don't we have the women's team playing there as well. So I would like to see that I would like to see Manchester United play at the women's team and mentioned it a little bit slow to get go. But why shouldn't they have games that Old Trafford, also you're not the English people are like, we love event, we love our sport. And I've noticed this particularly post COVID, this desire to get to ground early, having missed that visceral, emotional social connection with people after drawing, obviously, locked down, and the games behind closed doors, and I'm seeing it particularly after matches, I would normally leave an hour after matches were most of the ground. So most of the sort of the aid from the area around the ground, most of the people would have gone home, people are staying longer now at matches. So they missed that. So there is this desire. And it's almost like COVID has sort of sort of reminded us that the secular cathedrals of life now are football grounds, and people miss them. So if that is the case, open it up more, have all the you know, the women's games, obviously, some of the bigger women's games are being held at the men's ground, but it shouldn't just be the men's ground. It should be for both teams. And you know what, if you say, you know, what, how much is a five quid for a ticket, you're gonna go, you're going to see football, you're going to see good wormholes. My only real issue with the lionesses is that I don't think it reflects the diversity of this country. It's quite a white team. I remember the first game of the year. Yeah, I mean, I'm just looking at it. And it which is slightly strange, because if you think of the players in previous generations, Alex Scott, you mentioned, you know, it was more reflective of society. So I think, but again, that is a reflection. I've talked to some of the women's players, the lionesses about this. And they said, well, it's about opportunity. Football shouldn't be a middle class sport, it should be a sport fall, it should be investing in the inner cities, you know, so this is a societal issue, as well as a women's football issue. And it is ridiculous that girls at schools, particularly schools in the inner cities, are not having the access to sport to facilities to proper coaching. So look, you say their issues in Spain, we've got issues over here, but there's definitely a will to change here, but we just need more help from Whitehall.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:50

And what about if I can bring this back into tennis? The biggest advocate, in my opinion are the biggest influence over the last few years on a quality in tennis has not been the women speaking out. Because it's too easy. Sometimes, you know, if the women tennis players are speaking out, bloody women, bloody whinging, again, you know, it's actually been in been led by Andy Murray. In on Andy's been a massive, massive advocate of, of equality is is on his social media, in interviews, just in subtleties, as well, you know, so you might, we'll get it in tennis, and I think football, in my opinion is a long way away from this. But, you know, someone would say, the greatest ever, ever tennis player, or the tennis player has won the most ever Grand Slams is Rafael Nadal. And then Andy Murray would tweet underneath that and say, well, actually, Serena Williams is on 23 Margaret Court's on 24. You know, it's the subtle is the subtleties. There's been lots and lots of that. And I think Andy Murray's legend of the game will actually go down more for his influence and an expression on promotion of equality within tennis than it will further grand slams in the gold medals that he's won. Who, who's taking that role? You know, it's Pep Pep Guardiola is, you know, is Cristiano Ronaldo, you know who hit which, which superstar is taking that role in the promotion of equality within football because I'm a big follower of social media of football. I follow football more than I follow tennis. I don't hear it.

Henry Winter  1:09:34

Oh, I think the the men's England men's team absolutely vocal in their backing of the lionesses and also they will turn up at the matches. They go and support I think remember, you know, we are they're probably still slightly too young to have kids daughters watch you know, some of them probably do some of the older players have got a daughters who are wanting to play I think there is a lot of support from I mean, tennis is, I agree tennis is is ahead. I've never met Jamie, Randy Mario, they have huge admiration for them and sports and and also individuals, they can come over as good guys and you know with good senses of good senses of humor. And so life in perspective, but I have had lunch with Judy Murray. Their amazing mum and I would march into battle with her on on any issue because she's a fantastic leader, very charismatic. So yeah, I think there are, yeah, it's slightly different in a in a team game. But I do think the game coming back to social media, the men's players were all backing the lionesses, even though they knew that they would get a bit of well, the women have gone and won a trophy. You haven't won anything from 66. I think it's a little bit unfair to sort of compare the two let's celebrate and cherish particularly the lionesses with with what they achieved. Don't use the lionesses as a stick to beat the underachieving men's team with, but I do think they are, you know, they absolutely are. I mean, I've been to games with, with my daughter, and you know, one of the things about going to lose football, and it hasn't got the sort of the edge in the intensity. And perhaps a slight toxicity in the, you know, as in the in the men's game, whether it's in the air or on the pitch. But actually, if you want to go with your family, if you want to go and see a bunch of role models, if you don't want to see diving, cheating, I mean, you go there with then you're gonna go to women's game. So in a way, it's sort of happening organically. But I think it does come back to the club's have got to show the women that respect by having the games at Old Trafford at Emirates at Etihad. You know, because I think there's a Field of Dreams element, I think that more and more will turn up and you will feel that and you will be able to pay for the students and you will and commercially it will be good. You know the lionesses strip sells well. But just going back to an earlier point you made about women's football being slightly in the in the shadow that one of the most important, impressive, iconic role model teams in any sport men or women's over the last 10, 15 years has been the US women's national team. They've stood up to Trump. They've stood out on the pitch taken responsibility, whether it's hope, solo, a goal, whether it's Megan Rapinoe attacks so many individuals there, I think they will if you're thinking of 5, 10 of the greatest footballing teams of all time, you would have that American women's team in

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:49

You would, not many would. And that's that's where I think we've got to get to I think, Henry, I think I agree with you.

Henry Winter  1:12:55

I think it's changing. I do think so maybe it's because I'm in a more sort of football and women's football centric country. And you know, I'm proud of that. But also the football, the football is good. You know, people say, Oh, they would struggle against Manchester United under 16 Men's Team. That's not the point just going on. That's not relevant, not relevant. Just go in enjoy it for, you know, for what it is. So yeah, I think steps have been made. But look, we've also got to make steps in you know, there's a glass ceiling still in this country. For Black coaches, you know, we've got, we've got many issues to, to get through this. And when I cover England, England will be the first major team to walk off a pitch men's team for racist abuse. And it will happen within the next two years. And it will be on the front of Time Magazine, of a black and white England player saying enough is enough. And we're not going to happen on its own enough. We're not going to have our substitutes racially abused, when they warming up for doing their work. You wouldn't allow that in a place of work in an office factory floor, whatever. It's enough is enough. We've got to kick it out. So look, we've got many issues, but I would say that the march towards towards improvement towards principles I think is it's it's happening.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:19

Good but that I really hope so Henry and I think when we get to the point where somebody says name, the five greatest footballers of all time on the five greatest teams of all time, and somebody naturally names a female player or female team and not just somebody but that's that's the general like, I do believe that in tennis if somebody said named the five greatest tennis players you would have someone say, Serena Williams, Martina Navratilova as an example, without thinking about it. That's when it that's when we're truly at the point we want to be at, you know, whereas I think I think right now that question is probably to get the answer pulled out that you want from the general public name, the greatest ever female football or grip name, the greatest ever. If you say name the greatest ever football, I think people's minds still go to the male will go to five males. And I think that's where we're going to get to. But one question is a Newcastle fan. Love Your man united Man United, let's bring it back to the real stuff here. Henry, you know, and, you know, you've written lots of articles. And, you know, we appreciate that. And, you know, on the new Saudi honors, you know, at Newcastle and, you know, your views have seemed to be quite sympathetic towards the position of the club's supporters, you know, and I think there's, there's obviously different layers of where of where we're looking at that. But now that Newcastle, as an example of pushing the ladies team, you know, and that's going to come under the same ownership, you know, they're looking to grow that, you know, what are your views on how the game is going to now be promoted by such owners? Because potentially, an ownership like Newcastle is something that could give it the finance that takes it to a new level? You know, but is that is that a contradiction? That's too much to accept,

Henry Winter  1:16:21

And the Newcastle United women's team go and play in Saudi? I think these are the sorts of the questions. Maybe it's, you know, there's some elements of enlightenment, which will be encouraged in Saudi, with the sort of campaigning of journalists with the comments that are being made about sports washing, but I just think there's, there's there's a balance here. I mean, first new casting, it doesn't belong to me. It doesn't actually belong to the Saudis. It belongs to you. It belongs to the kids kicking the ball around in the streets in in Gateshead and Walls End emotionally financially might belong to to the Saudis and to amount to slavery. But I think emotionally it belongs to you without you it's just a large building in the middle of town with a nice front law. So you know, the fans are the most important thing the fans when they were effectively I was quite a liberation from the mike Ashley era I think you actually you know, you completely deserved that this whole I was getting messages on social media you know, is it can stage here which I think you will understand the whole canceling hashtag cards which means you get the cans out the fridge and celebrate because it's because Mike Ashley is gone. So I think to to write about and understand the situation properly you have to walk the streets of Newcastle and talk to people and understand that this was a regime that bled the club certainly emotionally. Under under Mike Ashley and hope has restored the fact that you can dream again not necessarily winning the league in the next couple of years but having a decent cup right and so that is good but I think that also has and I love going to you cast tonight it's one of the great walks up from Central Station thrillers it will get all the fans are falling out pub so excited snow on the ground, and there's still just got their black and white shirts on and shorts and you're going don't does anyone sell coats up here whenever it's in? No, because we want to show that you know, the black and white shirt is our second skin and and then you sort of you go into the ground you go past the Shearer statue that you know the Bobby Robson statue is a special place. And that's it, you go to games there. That just extraordinary and they play Local Hero and you just this huge noise. It's one of the biggest roars in sport, the learn simple in football. And you just get a sense of this is this is a club Newcastle United again. So I think that is fantastic. It's great to see, you know, the appointments, you've made sensible appointments about evolution, Eddie, Tony, also chief executive, very good signing from from Atlanta. And then Dan Ashworth, we'll make sure you bring your target good young players evolution Academy, obviously developing the women's side as well as you say, got a fantastic foundation as well do amazing work in the in the community. But but you know, I can write about all that. And I can write about an interview Callum Wilson and write about his goals and I can write about some maximum cutting off a flank and scoring this. But I also mentioned in there that, you know, we have to take into account there is an element of sports washing. There is an element of and it's also important to continue the debate about sports washing, and because they were considered, according to American authorities, implicit in the murder of a journalist Jamal Khashoggi. So, you know, it's important to weave all these things into the story, but I wouldn't. Yeah, but also it's like it's a sporting story. But again, it's a it's a life story. It's a political story and all those things have to be mentioned And, but I'm not going to pour cold water on. I mean, I live in a Pizza Hut on the station, you know, and there'll be 30 Newcastle fans just in their shirts, snow on the ground cans in their hand, you know, just see because of their joy, I'm not going to, I'm not going to shred that joy. Just, you know, I've just might sort of mentioned in the second paragraph about sports washing, but it's but it is extraordinary what they're doing. And, you know, the investment that's been put in it's actually been fairly sensible so far. And despite the sort of, you know, the sudden myth of Newcastle fans Yeah, yeah, I think a fairly balanced bunch. You just want to team the place which pride in the shirt you want that occasional moment of Philip Colbair running through should be Peter Schmeichel. There you go. That's a happy memory of Manchester United. You want to have the video or the tape or now probably DVD or whatever the stream of what did he call it? A Wi Fi vo when you eat

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:00

Oh, we all had it. We all

Henry Winter  1:21:03

it's probably on VHS so Oh, but it's all Betamax. But

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:08

It's on my favorites now on YouTube straightaway, you know, yeah,

Henry Winter  1:21:13

yeah, an amazing day. And I walked out of that and it was a Sunday afternoon game. And you know, and it was just brilliant. But look, Newcastle fans are amazing. I lost the bet this of Newcastle fans on social media and my forfeit was I had to swim the Tyne I said well, I'll do it for Bobby Robson's Foundation. And I went up there I'd organize it the port of time authority said You know, we've all been played out on social media so by the way, you know you got to do this properly. You need a guide so I rang up a local swimming guy who was very disappointed when I said I was swimming it width ways I wasn't swimming the time lengthways he said yeah, I'll help you do it by the Tyne bridge and then I was getting Newcastle fans saying oh by the way, don't wear a grey swimsuit because it's the seal mating season and I don't know how fast or swim you are. And then we have marine bother. This is social media for you and Newcastle fans you then had Newcastle United supporting marine biologists coming on so don't be stupid it's not the seal mating season but it is the sea otter mating season. So make sure you you swim fast. And then I turned out there about 2000s Geordies on the quayside, you know profitably hoping to see us of Kochi southern journalist you know disappear under the way to a couple of them are shouting watch out for brown fish. What brown fish they will you'll find out that it's not particularly pleasant. Anyway, I wasted a few quid I managed to get across and don't try this at home don't swim at the Tyne. It's it's not the cleanest and wow, that's a current in the middle. But you know that's a Newcastle fans view. They will turn up to support their club, obviously to raise money for Bobby Robson Foundation as well. The amazing work they do in combating cancer but it's a unique city one club cities always have that special atmosphere to them. And if I go to Newcastle United on a non Match Day, it's like a match day elsewhere. Everyone wandering around in a shirt bars around the place. You can hear people talking about Shearer or Saint Maximin. It is it's a city that lives and breathes football. So just to bring it back to sports washing. I'm not going to take the joy out of Julie's lies.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:27

I love listening to your talk about Newcastle and Henry, you got a great you've got a great way with words does it make you homesick? While it does it you know what in the local heroes I mean, I went to American University. And I remember when I first got there, you know you do your do your four month stint I mean here in Spain, it's so easy to get back. But in America, it was a little bit of a longer, longer period and the nights that I would listen to coming home Newcastle and local hero and you'd have you would it is a very in home is home for everybody. But there's a very, very special feel in that city and on matchdays is you know you see it yourself. The city stops you know I lived in Birmingham for six years. You didn't know if there was a match going on in on a Saturday. But if if if there's a match that happens on a Saturday, you know the whole city knows and and that's why I do tend to think know what to bring it back to women's football. Newcastle could be the pioneers in some way. Because I think it is the sort of city you know, I've watched you know Newcastle falcons and remember when they came in Rob Andrew came in and you know everyone got behind that. I go back years I remember when Ian Paul from came to Durham cricket, you know and we were I remember called his first match. I was on Sky Sports in the background age 15 or whatever it might be, you know, Darren wasps many many, many years ago, you know, and and I think I think we are a city not just the city of Newcastle but the Northeast in general, is we love our sport. We love being part of a tribe part of a community. So now that Newcastle United has a women's football team, I really can see I'm having a little laugh. They're gone with Billy 2000 People watching Henry winter swim. And there's only 1000 People watching the women play football. You know, how do we get St. James's Park rocking, but with the Saudis being the ones that are going to back that, and potentially bring in the signings of Leah Williamson and Beth Mead, I don't know over the years, I'm speculating, but they've certainly got the money to do it. Does that cause a problem for you? If they are the start of really, truly building domestic women's football in the UK? Is does that then get to a point where you go, Oh, hold on a minute. This is maybe a step too far.

Henry Winter  1:25:57

I think it was the start of building women's football in Saudi. I think that will be that's the that's the aim. The goal. I just think that I would like to see Newcastle United play their games at St. James's Park, you talk about the saw the huge passion? I think they would people would turn up and then they would they would I mean, what's it Alan Shearer used to say they would their turn up to watch the St. James's part kit man sort of hanging 10 Black and white shirts on the line, because there was that huge, huge passion. I do a lot of running. And you know, I've done marathons, half marathons all over the country and my favorite race and I'm still recovering it from three, four weeks ago. It's a Great North Run. It's unbelievable to me, as you know, the What's it 60,000 People are doing it and then the tool is there and you know, the route that it goes out to the coast. And it goes through two sort of less built up areas. There Julie's all the way a lot of mile from the end, there was a God who offered me a pint. As a journalist, I'm slightly loath to turn down a pint, but I was going to make you know, um, is it an eye, isotonic pint of Newcastle stat or whatever. So yeah, staggered down the hill and had a pint later, but it's just it is a great sporting city listed on you know, so John Hall wanted to do that he liked the sort of Barcelona approach and you just had this sort of sporting, sporting club of different sports. Absolutely. The women get the women playing in in St. James's Park. Get you? I don't know how many of you will get but I bet it would sell out, you know, sensibly priced kids for a quid family for 20 quid whatever. Newcastle against Sunderland, new work. Can you imagine that some of the ladies have a fairly decent so you will get Yeah, absolutely. And then what that does, you know, again, coming back to our sexual conversation. Sport is about sport, but it's about life and particularly post pandemic, you see some of these kids who basically been locked up, they haven't had their exercise. What's that done to their physical health, their mental health Gareth Southgate talks about this concern that there was a bubble coming through sport of a generation, which missed two years of training the golden years eight to 12, as Dennis Bergkamp always used to call the golden age of learning about sport, and learning about love. And also, you know, we have a slight side issue, but it's a big issue. So we have a slight issue with big issue with obesity in this country. Get more kids playing sport that then alleviates pressure long term on the NHS. It's not rocket science.

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:37

Henry, it's a great place to stop. And I do have, I do have a quick fire round, which you don't get away with no, no guest does. But before that, I just want to say I want to say a big thank you. You know, I think, you know, as I set out on this, my journey, I guess of running a podcast, you know, I'm certainly far from a journalist, I'm a tennis coach, and Academy director. It's been it's been incredible to open up so many conversations and, you know, in a in a space that I'm very comfortable in tennis, and I've had now a few experiences and opportunities to speak to people that I've read their work. I've watched the work over the years in, in a conversation that maybe I'm not approaching with as much confidence as I would speak in about tennis. So I've I've loved it. I was you know, looking forward to this with anticipation, and feed the way that you've openly shared with such passion and knowledge and insight. And apart from talking about Man United too much. It's been it's been an absolute pleasure. So thank you, Henry.

Henry Winter  1:29:40

Well, thanks for having me on. And aren't we lucky? We've got sport, whether it's you playing tennis at a good level for me being privileged enough to to cover it and particularly football. I mean, it's, you know, the many joys in this world and football sport is, you know, we always say Carlo Ancelotti, always call it football is the most important of the least important The many issues but how special How special is sport

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:06

Are you ready quick fire

Henry Winter  1:30:07

Go on hit me with it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:09

Roger or Rafa.

Henry Winter  1:30:12

Rafa Benitez definitely Roger.

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:16

What? What year will Newcastle win their next major trophy?

Henry Winter  1:30:23

Three years time. So whatever that is 25

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:28

We're going to hold you to that Henry. We're going to come after you if that doesn't happen,

Henry Winter  1:30:32

It will. It may be before as well. I've been too conservative you will win something might just be a League Cup to start with but you will win something within three years.

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:40

We'll take we'll take a league League Cup any day of the week and I'll be on that next. Ryanair flight out of here when it when it happens

Henry Winter  1:30:47

Sunderland in the final

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:50

Premier League or Champions League

Henry Winter  1:30:52

Champions league,

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:54

What's one rule change you would have in footballs?

Henry Winter  1:30:59

Whether it's a world change, I would limit VAR to 90 seconds. If you can't decide whether it's clear and obvious within 90 seconds, then there's no debate.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:08

Serena or Venus.

Henry Winter  1:31:11

Serena,

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:13

the best ever premier league footballer in your opinion.

Henry Winter  1:31:18

For you, Alan Shearer, yes,

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:21

Serve our return.

Henry Winter  1:31:23

A Good serve a beautiful serve. You know, it's like a penalty in football. And it's practice. And I would say yeah, good serve something special

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:35

Replay or penalties.

Henry Winter  1:31:37

So many games. Now it has to be penalties.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:41

Who's going to be the World Cup winner 2022, Qatar,

Henry Winter  1:31:45

Argentina.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:47

And the Wimbledon winners of 2023.

Henry Winter  1:31:53

And a cheer men's and women's

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:59

men's and women's day this is this is a show of equality Henry

Henry Winter  1:32:03

Djokovic. Whoever it is, I hope they're worthy successor to Serena. Because I've never met her. I've just watched her and admired her. As a as a as a pioneer. I see characters like her fighters in football, particularly. And I see the journeys that they've been on that, you know that sort of the racism, the obstacles, the closed doors they've had, and my admiration for their character, as well as their sporting skills is immense. So you will know better than I would but someone who is a worthy successor to Serena,

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:41

And the Champions League winner of 2223. Season.

Henry Winter  1:32:46

City, finally, Manchester City

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:49

Will be nice. Even as someone who is a big Newcastle fan, I watch back and I, I look at that team. And I must admit they're grown on me more and more. What does control the controllables mean to you

Henry Winter  1:33:05

Just don't get overly emotional about things, you know, out with your with your control. It's about momentum, it is about your game, it is about from a journalistic perspective. It's about how I control the week what I do, making sure that I do everything that I can to deliver for my employers. But I will also at the same time, look at what other people are doing. And I will have an audit on a Friday night. And your match report on going to Liverpool tonight. Your match report wasn't as good as my counterparts at the Telegraph. Wednesday, I've done an interview, it wasn't as good as my counterpart at the Mail. So absolutely control that all you can do. But also be very aware of what is outside that. So you might consider those uncontrollables how other people are performing. But I'm absolutely very aware of how other people are performing, because that will also drive me on.

Daniel Kiernan  1:34:08

Very good answer. And my last last question, who should our next guest be on control the controllables?

Henry Winter  1:34:18

Leah Williamson.

Daniel Kiernan  1:34:20

Are you able to pass that baton on? That's the That's the question.

Henry Winter  1:34:24

I know Leah. Yeah. I mean, I mentioned it to ask them kind of whether she's a tennis player, she's a

Daniel Kiernan  1:34:32

tennis I don't I don't care if she's not the to get her on and the subject in the conversation would be incredible. So I will be I will be chasing you. I won't. I won't chase over the top, Henry because I know you're a busy man, but I will certainly be dropping the odd message. And as I said earlier, a big big thank you. You're a top man really appreciate you coming on.

Henry Winter  1:34:53

Yeah, and I really enjoyed it. But you'll be spending 90 minutes persuading Leah to move to Gateshead

Daniel Kiernan  1:35:00

Exactly, exactly that. Well, we'll wait. I need to see how I feel about the about the rights first. You know, let's get our heads around that first. Thanks, Henry.

Henry Winter  1:35:09

Brilliant president. Now,

Daniel Kiernan  1:35:12

I have to say the first thing I need to say is Henry, no more Manchester United. Geez, I mean, how much do I need to listen to Manchester United now, since we've had that chat, and Newcastle United to do it incredibly well, so long may that go on. And Henry has said some nice words, actually, and I, I'm sure, he won't mind me saying but, you know, we had some terrible news a few years ago, as my mum was diagnosed with with mixed dementia. And you know, it's obviously a challenging time for her for, for the family for my dad, who is looking after my amazing mum back home, in the Northeast of England. And I just mentioned to Henry, I'd said, Look, my dad absolutely loves your journalism. And a little message, I'm sure would go a long way. And as busy as he is, I thought, maybe he's forgotten. I didn't want to push them on it. But then, a few nights ago, this beautiful message turned up in my WhatsApp inbox that I could forward on to my dad. And I just want to say a big thank you out in the public there to Henry for that. And I think it says so much about you, as a man that you've come on, you've given your time, to us a tennis podcast, and we've had great fun, great conversation. And that message I know means the world, to my dad, and also to my mom, who has listened to the message as well. So thank you very much for that, Henry. And, and in terms of in terms of this one, like I said, at the start, this was a bit of a challenge for me, you know, because I can talk tennis all day, I can actually talk football all day as well. But, you know, being having someone that's coming on a journalist, highly respected journalist in in a different sport and how we tied it together. It did bring a bit of a difference to the conversation, but once again, so many takeaways for me, you know, and the one I would like to touch on is, is just the representation of, of the minorities, you know, across across sport. And, you know, I know that women are absolutely not the minority but often they are seeing that or have been over the years within sport, which we know is absolutely wrong. Times are changing. And now I would like to share it say that I did see something it wasn't so long ago, it was the ballon Dior was on. And Vivian me Adema a football was was at the ballon Dion, there was pictures all over social media the next day saying, Vivian with her guest. Now that guest happened to be the Beth Mead to the incredible Beth Mead, who plays for England, and who was a big part of the Euro champion winning team. And you just wouldn't see that, you know, it would be like, Yeah, a few years ago, David Beckham, someone being pictured with David Beckham and caused calling David Beckham, the guest, you know, this is the subtle sexism that's still there. And, and I reflect on this a lot, because I feel very proud. And I've said this before on the podcast, of what a great job tennis do do in this, Can we do better? Of course we can. Absolutely. You know, but if you that wouldn't happen, the you know, the best tennis players in the world. You know, we we know their names, you know, they are making great, great money rightly so, you know, is it always equal? No, it is it the Grand Slams now, and that is fantastic. You know, and the more that that continues to be pushed, the more messages we get out there, and support that goes goes within it. But it starts at grassroots and, you know, we want to mirror what other people are. And I saw a thing with Coco Gauff recently, you know, she talked about Serena Williams, and she saw someone that looked like her. And she thought well I can be if she can be I can be and I want to make a push as well for for women's tennis coaches. You know, we don't have enough we don't have within the ecosystem. Yes, there's some great things that are happening within the world of tennis. And the quality's not there by any means, but we're doing a better job than a lot of the sports but we started let's get the coaches out there. Let's get, you know, people being able to be represented and for women to be able for girls to be represented across the board. And that is what we want for our beautiful sport. You know, it's great to see that football starting, but they are way behind in my opinion. They really are so tennis people. Let's keep spreading the message. All of you. female tennis coaches out there Let's keep spreading the message let's get the little girls playing tennis as well. The likes of Judy Murray doing an incredible job with so many different campaigns and, and ways that she's trying to bring more female coaches to the forefront. And that's my that's my little piece on it. Now, my last thing to say is just good luck. I spoke at the start about the events coming up. And it is a really proud moment for me, you know, when you when you coach, and you've got a kind of a moody 10 year old who doesn't say a whole lot, and you spend many years trying to try to get them to open up you. You're not sure as a coach, if they are listening, you know, you you're you're working hard, you don't always get the feedback as they go through them the teenage years. And Lloyd Glasspool, someone who I was fortunate enough to coach pretty much from the age of 10 through to 2425. And to see him at the pinnacle, the absolute pinnacle of, of the ATP playing in the ATP tour finals next week in Turin. And then alongside also Neal skupski Who a big friend of the podcast and someone who used to live with Ken his brother at university and the rember Neil from a very young age, but it's it's so relatable, and I hope people can see those stories and can see that actually, if they can do it, then then we absolutely can. So I'm hoping I might get a couple of days later in next week. I've been speaking to the boys if I can make my way over there. I certainly will. And I know lots of you are asking to speak to Lloyd and Harry about their their year. So I'm hoping to get those guys on the podcast in the next couple of weeks. And then we have Robbie Koenig, the amazing South African commentator who was also brilliant doubles player back in the day. You know Robbie has a way with words and he is our next guest coming up next week. So lots to look forward to. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables