Josh Sapwell - Tennis Was Easy

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 159, of control the controllables. When we set about with this podcast, I wanted to bring lots of different stories. And there was certain players, especially British players, that I knew as a young coach that I'd wondered what had happened to them. Over the years, there's been so many top junior players, whether it's under 12, under fourteens, under sixteenths, or, at times, as we saw with Ollie Golding, also under 18s, who knew that there never quite went on to the stage that we expected them to. And

Josh Sapwell  00:47

just it all went to my head. And I got into this rap, of wanting to experience what losing was like again. And then it was a rut that I couldn't get out of. And whilst everyone was developing, and going on to bigger and better things, there was me still thinking that I was a massive fish in an incredibly small pond.

Daniel Kiernan  01:15

And today, we bring you one of those stories. And it's the first time that Josh Sapwell, as really told his story. He's now it's 25. He's happy, he's coaching and doing a great job. But if we look back 10 years ago, 11 years ago, he was winning the famous Orange Bowl title out in Miami, Florida. He was then tipped to be the next Andy Murray. And it's not quite as easy as that, as you will find out. It's a brilliant story. It's told in an extremely raw and passionate way. And for Josh, I thank him a lot for that. I know you're going to enjoy it. Sit back and enjoy. Josh SAP. Well, so Josh, SAP Well, a big welcome to control the controllables How you doing?

Josh Sapwell  02:08

Very good yourself.

Daniel Kiernan  02:09

Very good. And I've called you, Josh to start off. As you said, off air, you only get called Joshua when you're naughty. So hopefully, hopefully through this podcast, I'll only have to call you Josh. What?

Josh Sapwell  02:23

Exactly I plan I plan to behave myself down. And

Daniel Kiernan  02:26

you are. I've said for a while I always I always think of the names I think of Jamie Delgado. 1991, under 14 Orange Bowl champion, George Morgan 2007, under 14, Orange Bowl champion and then 2010 Josh Sup, Wales. And those are the three male British players that have won the under 14 orange ball event. And I've always thought to myself, you know, where is Josh? What's what was happened to Josh and I hope we're gonna get into, into lots of those things today. But as we always start Josh with the podcast, you were a bit of a bit of a young sensation. So so your early days in tennis, how did that start? Who were the influences? How did you get so good so soon?

Josh Sapwell  03:18

So my mum was a big, big driving force behind it. I think, from what she tells me, obviously, I was too young to remember but from what she tells me, she, we were watching Wimbledon. And apparently, I said that I wanted to play there. Apparently, this was two and a half years old. So I doubt that I doubt those words came out my mouth, but whether they did or not, is up to her, I guess. And yeah, she just, you know, we were from Bedfordshire, and she took me down to my local club. And it's quite strange story really, because the coach that I had my first lesson with, I ended up being with him that's Neil Claxton. I ended up being with him from two and a half to 16. Really. And he was just at this little club in clitic, which has like, seven courts, six, seven courts. And he was just there for a week. He was from Cambridge. He was just there doing a camp, like a summer summers camp or Easter camp, whatever it was. And yeah, now it's quite a very small world is a very small world that he just happened to be there at that time, but, and he was just starting his coaching career. And it was quite a quite a nice story for the two of us, really. So we both sort of just clicked and it went forward from there. Like in addition to my mum, my granddad, my mum's dad was also a really prominent sportsman as well. So he was a big driving force to

Daniel Kiernan  04:58

that it is you You don't hear that very often. So if we take your relationship with Neil, did you appreciate at the time? How special that relationship was? Or is it almost taken for you to come away from being a player to almost reflect and and see that?

Josh Sapwell  05:16

For sure. It's, it's, I mean, obviously, the bond and the relationship I formed with Neil, from a very early age. We still have now, and obviously, it's massively bigger and stronger now. But you don't fully appreciate it until you're out of that situation. You know, I think that's the same for a lot of things in life, isn't it? But yeah, it truly was. It truly was a special story. And it was really one of a kind, really, near myself.

Daniel Kiernan  05:51

And what did he give you? What were the main things when you look back on it? Because I think there's so many of us that are in the coaching world, that we work with a player for a year or two, and then they move on, or, you know, we move on into to have that over such a long period? What was what was it that Neal was able to give you, other than just the obvious of good technique and, and things like that?

Josh Sapwell  06:16

Well, you see my technique, not sure. Not sure, we can call it good. It was just a very, very knowledgeable calming, had a hugely calming influence on me. They used to get his point across in a very calm, but all 44 authoritative way, if you know what I mean. So it's very authoritative. But it was also in a, it was never the aggressive, loud person, you would have had to have. Joshua would have been shouting, very loud, loud, right? If I got him annoyed, I must have been doing pretty naughty. But just as his knowledge is, is, again, I've been lucky to be coached and come across, arguably some of the best coaches. And again, he will always remain, you know, one of the best coaches I've ever come across, because it's just his drive to want to better his knowledge was incredible. From a young age. What he taught me because I was, I wasn't easy. I wasn't easy. But he clearly saw something in me. Whatever it was, and he was heavily invested both physically and emotionally. And he was a huge driving force behind it. We were out there on snowy mornings, in the winter at 630 in the morning before school, seven in the morning, and then we'd be there taking me out of school at lunch, and we'd go again and an evening to go again. It always be there's a huge, huge motor, so you want to improve himself and improve me and forever, forever be be grateful for that.

Daniel Kiernan  08:12

If you if you didn't have that, because we always again, I think there is these driving forces quite often it is apparent. You know, we certainly see on the on the women's tour in particular, we see, you know, some of these kind of what what are perceived as crazy fathers until until they succeed, and then maybe they're not as crazy. If you didn't have that behind you. Do you think you had it intrinsically yourself to be that highly motivated to push yourself? Absolutely

Josh Sapwell  08:41

Not, Okay. No. Yeah, yeah, it was. Because I was always same old classic story. It was always football or tennis. And I was always better at tennis and I was football. I was good at football. I was always a little bit better at tennis. But footballs just a little bit easier because it's with your mates. Right? Yeah. And that is the driving force has been out there with your mates plan playing the game, trying to keep the ball in the back of the net. Tennis on their own. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  09:17

Was that your ultimate downfalls?

Josh Sapwell  09:23

One off, yeah, one off, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  09:29

I guess the reason I asked that question is there's only often so long we can keep keep players up. You know, and ultimately in a sport like tennis. There has to be such an an uncovering motivation to get up to go again to get over the injuries to travel the world to do it week in week out to deal with the losses. Is that something I know it was an injury that was in play, it played a role in you stopping, but ultimately talk us through that period.

Josh Sapwell  10:05

Yeah, I mean, exactly what we're saying about how much I appreciate, Neil, you know, you only it's quite nice now to sort of look back and see things much more clearly. And it's very obvious where things went wrong for me in terms of not quite achieving what many would say, I should have achieved or could have achieved or would have achieved depend on who you are. And there's a whole catalogue of I'll be probably brutally honest about it like I am with everyone. as a whole. When I look back, there's a whole catalogue of things that we could all turn the clock back, I would have changed but you learn from those mistakes or mistakes but learnings I prefer to call them learnings because that's what life's about. That's what that's what ultimately betters you as a person. But yeah, I think I was. I was winning. Up until 14 I was there was glimmers of what I could potentially achieve. Yeah, I won 12 nationals. I was always, always top in the country from the age group. So there were glimmers. But I always had I still say it's, I'm I'm a huge Chelsea fan. And my mom and I always say, I'm very similar to Chelsea. When I'm good. It was good. When I was bad, I was bad. There was no in the middle. You know, it was for me, I was either winning 12 and under nationals, or then when I moved up to the 14s people that I was beating, very comfortably were suddenly top 40 in Europe for in London and I was like, Oh my God, this different world. I'm never gonna get to that level. I think yeah, I was. I was a maverick, I was different. I would go as go as far as to say I was a huge disappointment to the LTA until I was 14. Because, you know, I wasn't the person that or the player that many people wanted me to be I wasn't behaved on court. I mean, you probably can remember me. I know a lot of people will probably remember my antics on court, but I'll smash the rackets do the classic and punch your strings and I think the whole world is against me and I would lose a lot of tennis matches other people wouldn't beat me I'd beat myself. I then I was always getting told to play a different way to what I felt comfortable doing. You know, I was always I was always getting told, you know that I needed to be more consistent. I needed to be more emotionally consistent. I needed to be fitter you know, better shape. I was always getting told that whatever. Whatever. Whatever game style I adopted was always wrong. And I remember it's not a huge amount that I can remember from my life years ago, but I remember really vividly It was just after teen tennis I believe that's what it used to be called a bolt. And I think I think I lost last 16 had an absolute meltdown, absolute meltdown. And my mum absolutely crucified me because she was always so invested and she couldn't she hated it hated it when I used to play up in court because one that's not how she bought or not how my dad brought me up. But two because she just didn't like other people see me behave like that and also didn't like lose it. Because that was what ultimately did us to lose as much as and I remember I went to charge and that's qualified. And I said to myself, You know what, let's just play game. Let's play the game and I've set up now I don't actually care if I win or lose because I'm so fed up with people telling me to do this do that play like this to play out to behave is to behave like that? I thought you know, I'm gonna do this myself. And the first match I played I decided to not miss and that sounds absolutely bizarre, right? Because it's phony It was that simple. And I thought I'm just gonna miss. I'm not gonna miss I'm gonna see where it gets me when I inevitably do miss. So when I inevitably do this I'll play another game. We'll see how long I can go without missing that one me that much. It's The same in the second round of coins, won that match. Do the same again. Got into my jaw. I remember, can't remember his name. One of the reps that Babolat came up to me was talking about sponsoring me. I was already with Wilson time. You know, he was really impressed. Couple of couple of players. I don't know if you can remember him Quincy, who was unbelievable amount of time. Yeah, he came up to me. He was like, you pay really well, man. And I was like, so really, Quinton Harris, who? He ended up going to win Tarbs, and play really well. I was like, wow, it's unbelievable. I then went and got a quarterfinal. last to Noah Rubin. And when I did, I think no, Ruben, I can't remember I lost in the court. I lost in the quarterfinal. Really good result. And suddenly the world looks much different place. IMG contacted by mom out of the blue. It was like we really were watching Josh in Tarbs and really want to help him and sponsor him suddenly, oh, my God, what's going on? And then I just I'll be honest with Dan, I just carried on playing that way the whole of that year and just grew in confidence growing confidence wasn't missing was enjoying torturing opposition's by just not missing I got myself so fit with my team and I got got myself so fit. And suddenly as it was tennis was easy. Tennis was won nationals. I won European masters and what went on. I remember I remember Neil from finished number two in Europe that year. I did finish number two in Europe. Oh my god. And I remember Neil about a couple of days before I went to Orange Bowl and this was really unlike him. He said Josh no one ever goes to Orange Bowl and wins all three so it doesn't happen because they burn out. They said most will you know most will peak in the first tournament or if they do really well the second tournament and then go on and do nothing in orange bell says not deliberately lose the First Tee. But he said if you're going to win one make sure it's the last one he said because that's the one people remember no one remembers that person who won Prince cup and no one remembers that people only remember the last one so save yourself GM when the third one and I remember thinking there's no way on earth I'm gonna win. There's no way I know if I'm gonna wind cycles because that and when it happened, and it was just the most bizarre thing ever. I still think about it now which I don't. But when people talk to me about it, it's still crazy because I just I never felt no I never felt I was anywhere near that level. And suddenly suddenly Dan the world felt a completely different place and are signed a huge contract with Nike signed a really nice contract Wilson also had IMG by my side. People Mitchell's VLTI golden boy. I felt like I could do anything I want it felt like I could do anything I wanted. It was a difficult moment because what should have been an unbelievable moment. turned out to not be that great because my fitness coach is called Simon Tomlinson who's unbelievable is unbelievable. He announced after one year that he was he was moving away to Thailand had been offered a job there. So I lost him. And he was incredibly driven, incredibly driven, incredibly knowledgeable, really lucky to have met him. He really knew what I needed to work on, you know was proactive as energetic would have been out there for 12 hours a day. If he needed to be and he probably he probably wouldn't even charge me for it. He probably would have done it all for you because he loved it. Neil was going through a really difficult time because he had by this point he had me for at least a year couldn't get up out of bed could get up out of bed. So I had this is not an excuse. But I had no one had the LTA which wants to try to help as much as possible. But I was I did all that we all of that was without meal really Neil's there behind the scenes to talk to and I'd go to his house and see him but for most of that year, Neil wasn't on call because he couldn't be so I was left with just club hitters essential club hitters that were following through instructions and

Daniel Kiernan  19:58

Did you feel you would do doing it for him a little bit, though, to give you that little extra push to do that for him with what he was going through. Yeah,

Josh Sapwell  20:08

I felt like I was giving. I felt like I was doing it for everyone, you know, my parents because they gave me everything. Myself. Yes, absolutely. And I think, yeah, going back to what you said about did I ever have that? That individual drive? Yes. When I was winning, yes, when I was winning, but I believe now in order to be the best, or to be up there with the best, you know, of course, you have to have sight different. And for me, I was struggling, I think with personnel around me. I had everything thrown at me. And I felt like I was on top of the world. I didn't have anyone to tell me otherwise. You know, I had people that were blowing smoke in my direction, every single second of every single day. And it's gonna sound crazy. I actually tennis was easy. And I felt I was bored. It sounds crazy, right? hard, but I was bored. And I remember I then went into I was bored of winning. And it's quite ironic because in the end, I couldn't actually buy a win to save my life. But I was bored of winning at 15. And I remember playing my first ITF in Nottingham. And again, I'm not going to say I deliberately lost but there wasn't much about me not wanting to win. Because I want you to experience what losing was like again. Unfortunately, a compilation of possibly not having the right personnel around me thinking I was way better than what it actually was not having people say oh, just it all went to my head. And I got into this rut of wanting to experience what losing was like again. And then it was a route that I couldn't get out of whilst everyone was developing and going on to bigger and better things there was me still thinking that I was a massive massive fish in a in an incredibly small pond and didn't realize it at the time but all along Yeah, my competitors were I was actually going down and in this game, you don't get long. And you can't be afford to be you can't afford to be going down for too long. So yeah, I just got into a bad rut and then was you know, I struggled with a couple of illnesses and and I think where all this anxiety and stress came along yeah port on the illnesses and inevitably brought on the the arm injury. Obviously in and amongst all that I actually separated with Neil which to be brutally honest it broke my heart. Probably decided to stop playing tennis at 20 is probably on a level path with one of the toughest decisions I've ever made. And that's the the other ones split and up and Neil because Neil just wasn't able to get on court with me. And I did I felt I felt cheated. I felt I felt cheated. It was when I look back now. There was too many, just at the most important point of my career. Things just, you know, there were too many errors. There were too many mistakes. There's too many mistakes, arguably one of the most important points of my career. Because when I when I won Orange Bowl, that's where you go, right? Well there mate, you're on the right track. Yeah, high five. But if you dare think for a second you've made it. You're done.

Daniel Kiernan  24:32

And if you could go back to that time, knowing what you know now. What would you say to yourself? Today's the day after you've won orange ball. It's around Christmas time. I watched your interview last night. You didn't look very happy when you wanted to but that was maybe just camera shy. But that was that was nice to see. And and you got asked the question. You know what you're going to do? You know how you're going to celebrate. And you said, I'm just gonna go and celebrate Christmas with my family, you know, and it was very clear from that interview. Big family boy want to be back with your family. I know, I played Orange Bowl, actually, a little side story. And I played Fernando Gonzalez in the quarterfinals of under 14. And I was playing him on the 23rd of December, because there'd been a little bit of rain. And I knew that if I won that match, I wouldn't get home for Christmas. Yeah, I was five four 40-15. up in both sets. I'm not saying that I consciously didn't win the match. But I definitely lacked a killer instinct to get through that match because of the consequence of it, which ultimately was probably my downfall as a tennis player, you know, I wasn't quite willing to sacrifice what what so many others are. And, you know, so that period, you're, you've wanted to you're about to get on that flight the next day, you know, great mazing. Going back, your life has changed in lots of ways. Maybe more than you realize. What would you what would you say to yourself, if you could have two minutes with yourself? What would you say

Josh Sapwell  26:27

I mean, going back on the on the plane, without trophy, I'll never forget the feeling. Samsung shock. But once, I would love to just have a feeling that will stay with me forever, you know, never in a million years. And I think I would never win the World Championships in the sport that I loved. But it happens. But I wish I wish I'd have had the composure to set myself to kiss for a couple of minutes. You know, look, go home, obviously enjoy it into a Christmas with your family. But if there's any part of you that thinks that this is done at 15 You might as well stop now. I think it was just naivety you know, is it naivety and

Daniel Kiernan  27:20

but why would you know different you're you're 14 years old you know and and this is this is my thing on it. And I mentioned a couple of names Jordan, I'll stay on the on the on the male side because this is male irrelevant. But George Morgan Ollie Golding, you know, St. Simon Dixon, you might not know Simon, James Nelson, Matt Smith, won Tarbs, you know, we've never had a shortage of of these players, you know, that have that have either Okay, won these big events. Won Tarbes won Orange Bowl. So so there has to be something that that that goes back to the Federation here and it's not about let's all just slag off the the LTA but there's, there's been many Josh Sapwell stories, you know, not hundreds, but there has been so so where's the learning? You know, I've had Lee Childs on this podcast, Lee childs had 17 was 300 in the world ATP and, and he was taken away to play on clay and change his game style, and you know, all of these things, it's ringing true, you know, the story that you're telling, so So on a on a larger scale, because I think your voice on this is so important, because you are someone that has been through it, you know, what is the learning from a British tennis standpoint? And my second part of that question, Josh, is, if you were from Chile, or Bolivia, or somewhere different, do you think that same thing would have happened?

Josh Sapwell  28:57

No, I just think I think in this country we yeah, we've always had a very nicely nice approach me and everyone is Yeah, everyone is treated so amazingly, and players from you know, sort of other parts of the world. It's brutal. It's brutal. And even when they're even when they're number one in the world, and they've won massive amounts of tournaments and and they've achieved unbelievable rankings and one so many grand slams, and still never good enough. It's never good enough. And they're out there training for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours on end. And you know, I just think we're bred differently. And obviously, I can, I am speaking for myself, but I also know a lot of my friends that have had similar stories to me it's the same outcome every time. It's we're allowed to To get away with a lot, we're allowed to get away with doing the bare minimum, because it's okay. It's okay. Because if we make it, then amazing, if we don't, then that's perfectly fine as well. Whereas in these other countries I can only imagine there's not such nice of an outcome if you don't make it or if you don't put on 110% into what you're doing on the training court and, and outside of that. So where that comes from, I don't know. Are the LTA to blame for that? I'm certainly not going to comment on that. But I just I just think, you know, as you as you quite rightly said, this story, my story happens a lot, or quite a bit. And there must be a reason for that. And I just think it is because we are allowed to get we have every five minutes. We have everything. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Clearly, it's not great if at all people we're not quite reaching their end goals. But I'm not saying obviously everyone has to live through horrific times. But I do think we have a lot of stuff thrown at us and a lot of things done for us and life is a hell of a lot easier than what it is some other people

Daniel Kiernan  31:27

And to give a balanced view as well, Josh, I think the last couple that have been of that sort of ilk have been Jack Draper and Emma Raducanu on the girls side, you know, who, who had highly impressive young careers, you know, we know now that under 14 Orange Bowls, so what in lots of ways, it's, it's an experience, it's a moment you'll never lose. But so what in terms of ultimate development, and Jack is closing in on top 100 in the world? Emma's now, won a US Open, so it does feel that there is there is some changes that are happening, you know, that that may be some of the lessons and maybe that'll be part of your legacy as well, that you're one of those players that have been that have been learned from what the there's a couple of bits I want to go into here because I think, by the way, unbelievably well spoken and, and thank you for sharing so openly as well, Josh, because I think that will massively impact so many people listening. But when I go back to you as a junior, I didn't know you at all, but I knew I knew your pedigree. And I knew when I saw your player, you hit the ball bloody cleanly and you and you were a bit different. You You almost were borderline arrogant on the court which which which which is which actually, I always thought bloodless, this kid is going to be good. He has such belief in himself. And there was a special tag to you. Marat Safin, Marcelo Rios, Nick Kyrgios, Benoit Paire, there's all of these types of players that in our system we've not allowed to come through. Because and you talked about it really well, earlier on in the in the episode where you were you were talking about how you felt you were sick of people telling you to be a certain way. You know, Can you can you expand on that? And maybe just give us again, now that you're a coach, have you had a young Josh Sapwell, who was launching rockets and doing certain things differently to the to the conformed were that we we see a perfect tennis player should be how would you manage that person? How, how should you have been managed?

Josh Sapwell  33:45

I mean, obviously a certain way that I believe someone should conduct themselves on court. Because some people see it enhances their performance, and they didn't always. But you're right. As I said, I was constantly getting told to be a certain way. Do things a certain way, play a certain way? And if I didn't, then there would very usually the consequences. And as I said, you know, I left Neil at 16 and went into a completely different world. I went to France and full time. Yeah, it was a lot of people there, there was something that most of the best players in the country. And I think it's also fair to say, after nine months of being there, it wasn't for me, but in that nine months, you're right down, you know, you hit the nail on the head. I think what made me so good at such a young age was I was very arrogant. And I had a huge belief in myself. I remember. I remember when I was 15. I would have happened I would have lost very easily, but I would have happily have played Federer, I would have happened. And I would have believed that I could have won. I wouldn't obviously, I would have got absolutely battered, but I was very much coming out again. I'm not finding anything, unfortunately. Unfortunately, as I said, I'm certainly not going to be throwing anyone under the bus but

Daniel Kiernan  35:31

Was that coached out of you,

Josh Sapwell  35:35

Yes,  Not just because not just because the environment certain other situations that again, I won't be going I won't be going into. But I came out of Roehamptona shadow shadow unrecognizable, unrecognized unrecognizable, to the point where I was every tournament, every tournament I played, I would look and I never used to be one of these people. I wouldn't care it was a draw, I would win that I would be winning at all. And if I didn't, told them and I would be gutted. Because I should have won that tournament. I believed I could be anyone. But when I came out of there, almost almost I think it was October, November I, I got my mum took me out of Roehampton. So I was almost certain thing. And an example would be every tournament, I played. I've been looking at the draw sheet. And if I had anybody ranked above me that I'd beat myself before I even stepped into the door. I didn't believe I could win, just based on ranking. My confidence was the amount I doubted myself was was scary. I wasn't I wasn't able to play tennis anymore. It was It wasn't a battle between me and my opposition. It was a battle between me and myself. And it was it was horrendous. It was horrendous and how I picked up a racket again, after Roehampton still is arguably one of my greatest achievements actually playing when I came out of there because I was done with the sport. So that's another awesome contributing factors. And I'll be honest with you. I never got that back. I never got I never got that self confidence back. I never got that back. My heart. Many people put my my heart completely went completely went.

Daniel Kiernan  37:52

And you alluded earlier, Josh, as well to dealing with a lot of stress and anxieties is was Was that something that became outside of the sport, something that your mental health really suffered from as well?

Josh Sapwell  38:05

Yeah. Yeah, my mental health wasn't in it. I was experiencing things that I've never experienced in my life. My My life is very simple. It was get up, do your training, or go to a match when come home, get ready for the next one. Enjoy tennis enjoy winning. It's been a very long time since I've ever ever felt that. You know that that that left me that left spear probably 15, the half 16 And never, never, never returned. But lots of learnings. I've fronted up to it. I've taken lots of learnings from it. Shame. Yeah, huge shame. Huge shame. But I see life. I see myself and I see my tennis career. I see my life much different than right now. And I'm very, very at ease and happy and comfortable with that.

Daniel Kiernan  39:07

But yeah, you wouldn't want it age 25 You wouldn't want to play again.

Josh Sapwell  39:13

Everyone, everyone asked me this, everyone says this. I get the line that I get a lot is someone as good as you. Why would you not be tempted to go back? Or if I had your talents, I would be one of the happiest people alive playing tennis. I enjoy. I enjoy playing for work or playing for the club that I work at. But that six matches a year. I do enjoy that because I can play anxiety free. I don't care. And funnily enough when I don't care I can play some pretty nice tennis. Interestingly when matches get close now, anxiety starts to creep in from what sort of reared its head, punished Roehampton. So the answer to your question No.

Daniel Kiernan  40:10

And as I know that you're you're going on court and a few minutes, Josh, and we can't not have the quick fire round, because my listeners will kill me. But before we move into the quick fire round, how have you been able to transition from player to coach? Is that? Is that been something that's been a pleasurable experience? Is that been quite a hard experience? Because you, you've got to accept that you're no longer Josh Sopwell, the player and now you are someone who's a coach. And then secondly, to that as what sort of philosophies are you now taking into your coaching?

Josh Sapwell  40:49

The transition was tough at the start. When I stopped playing, I thought I said to myself, I never ever seen a tennis court again. But I actually got offered a job at God's link, where I was training, and I loved it. And I was really passionate about it. I think Antonio Conte was the manager at Chelsea at the time. And I loved his enthusiasm. I tried to apply that to my coaching and the results that I got from some of the players I was working with. Fantastic. And I fell in love with tennis from a different perspective, because perspective in a way that I never thought I would. And I thought, why not, it's just, I feel like I've got so much to offer this sport. Be a real shame for it to end like this. And don't get me wrong. I've had some tough times, usually when people are quizzing me on my past, but I've always been really strong. And I've always I've always been really strong and mature and faced up to these things and listened and take the I took on board what people were saying and, and I was really, really grown. I've really grown. And I think it's very much fair to say, and I know my boss, he'll agree with me. He told me this earlier, actually, you know, in the last three or four years of be here at Berkhamsted, arguably, it's been the best of my life, and I've matured massively. As a coach, I take my work very seriously. I'm always looking to develop, I'm always looking to be better. So do you know what the transition now is? Pretty, pretty nice and easy. I know my responsibilities I love the people I work with. And I think arguably, the nicest thing of all is actions now starting to appreciate that. People don't look at me or whatever. I don't think they did anyway. But we all we all have that irrational part of our brain, right that thinks we're the center of everyone else's universe. In actual fact, we're not. And it's no one gives a crap. And I think it's just so nice. Now, you know, the tennis forum that you you were running the other week, it's nice not to turn up to a place like that in my head saying of Josh, you know, these people don't think your failures, they won't talk to you. They don't like you because you're one they don't actually care and to buy appreciate you now for the coach Siam. And not the player I was. And that makes my life a lot easier. So I'm in a real good place. I'm in a real good place.

Daniel Kiernan  43:31

Josh Amir's and this is been one of my favorite ever chats on control the controllables. I appreciate that. Jen genuinely and, and I think my final thing I'd like to say before we quickly do the quick fire round is in life, we never quite know, the consequences of certain learnings in certain situations we have. And there's a big thing that I believe in is longer term consequence. And, and that things happen for reasons and it can be 20 years later, before we actually understand why something has happened. And listening to you talk, I have no doubt that you are going to have some real lightbulb moments over the next 510 15 years, where you'll actually be very thankful for the challenging times that you've been through. And a big because actually, ultimately, this sport doesn't define any of us. You know, you're saying you're saying you're saying about you as a coach or use a player but ultimately No, it's about you, you as a person, and everything that you've been through. I wish you the very best are looking at keep doing keep doing a great job. You know, thank you for sharing so openly. But are you ready for the quickfire round? This is what we're all here for.

Josh Sapwell  44:52

Go for it.

Daniel Kiernan  44:53

What does control the controllables mean to you?

Josh Sapwell  44:59

Like control the controllables to me means anything that is in your control and that is something that you can influence and manage anything that's out of your control. Try your best not to worry about it because it's possibly not going to affect your life and if it does then it's out of your control so it's not worth worrying about in the first place.

Daniel Kiernan  45:21

Your future you can control me your past you can't now I like it. Server return forehand or backhand. Backhand favorite Grand Slam. Women of ATP cup or Davis Cup

Josh Sapwell  45:43

Davis Cup biggest

Daniel Kiernan  45:44

piece of advice to aspiring young tennis player

Josh Sapwell  45:50

enjoy the process. Enjoy working hard. And yeah, just don't ever think you've done it. Or it's always you can always be better.

Daniel Kiernan  46:00

doubles or singles. Singles medical timeout or not.

Josh Sapwell  46:08

The medical timeout gave me the edge in terms of winning than a medical timeout.

Daniel Kiernan  46:14

Roger or Rafa. Rafa, Serena or Venus.

Josh Sapwell  46:19

Serena?

Daniel Kiernan  46:21

What's one rule change you would have in tennis?

Josh Sapwell  46:26

Playing like calls in phosphor off the Serbs?

Daniel Kiernan  46:30

Who should our next guest be on control the controllables?

Josh Sapwell  46:36

My former coach Neil Claxton,

Daniel Kiernan  46:38

you're responsible. Get him in touch. Send me tell him he's up next. It's like passing the control the controllables button. Yeah, you know, what,

Josh Sapwell  46:48

what episode is this? Dan?

Daniel Kiernan  46:50

This is I think, I think it's gonna be 159.

Josh Sapwell  46:53

Cool. So he can be 160.

Daniel Kiernan  46:55

Get it? Get it? Get it set up, Josh. Top Man, you've been absolutely awesome. Good luck. Go and do go and go and get on that court. And keep smiling. Good lad.

Josh Sapwell  47:06

Dan, thanks so much for having me. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  47:07

Thank you. Take care. I'll see you soon, buddy. Take care. As always a big thank you to our guests who come on the show. And again, I set it at the start of the show. But I can't thank Josh enough for the way he opened up there the way he shared quite intimate stories about how he was feeling at certain times. And I really hope those listening learnt so much from that. And Vicki, we continue to have so many different guests. And again, for me, it's such a different mindset, again, from so many of our other guests. Yeah, you

Victoria Kiernan  47:45

know, the thing that I kept thinking about I was driving earlier on and I was like, oh, tennis is easy. That's what I kept thinking when he said that tennis was just too easy for me.

Daniel Kiernan  47:55

And I think what I loved about that, as well was tennis does mirror life. And there is times when you can go along life and it can feel quite easy things, things are happening and going in your favor. And we have to stay so humble, we have to stay ready, because we're never far away from it turning around. And I think Knox kind of twofold. I've mentioned this a lot the last few weeks, we're never far away from playing well. And we're never far away from playing badly. And that's exactly the seventh life. And it's why humility is something that we drill at the SotoTennis Academy has been a massive, massive value to carry an attribute to have, because you never know. And if Josh looks back, he spoke so openly about it. I think he probably did lack a little bit of humility at that time. You know, obviously, there was some unfortunate events that took place. And I think it also showcases just how hard tennis is. Because as good as he was, and if you ever had the chance to watch watch Josh Sapwell play, he was a serious baller, you know, he could play some proper, proper tennis, and he was in line, you know, to go out and have a fantastic career as a tennis player. Now, everyone's pathways change at different times. As I said to him, you know, we never know the consequences of what's happened in our life until often 1520 30 years later, and I'm sure he will draw on all of those amazing experiences, pass it on down to the players, he's coaching, the relationships that he has, but I just found him really fascinating.

Victoria Kiernan  49:40

It was fascinating and again, I can't get past that. But tennis is easy comment. I think someone we've had another guest on the podcast. I'm gonna say Lee Childs who said the same thing.

Daniel Kiernan  49:51

And his story is quite similar to the Lee child's story in in some ways, you know, they were both kind of childhood superstars. Really? I think

Victoria Kiernan  50:00

Superstars is definitely the word because how many? How many players can say that? A handful? It's ridiculous. We were watching players every weekend play tournaments. And anyone would jump at the chance to turn around and say, yeah, just I decided to play this game style. And I won. And I decided to play the game style again. And that's how I played for a year. And I was just winning. Like, that isn't the norm.

Daniel Kiernan  50:24

It's not, and I think, but there is a lesson there, it can be easy, or easier that we all make it, you know, and just that, that itself and youngsters, and if our, our players at the academy, listen to it to this, think in a simple manner, you know, give yourself one clear thing, don't make any errors, hit too big targets, whatever it might be, you know, sometimes those simple messages can take you a long way. But I do just want to pick up on the, on the Josh Sapwell. And then you brought in Lee childs into it. And I think if we can go through quite a few or Ollie Golding, George Morgan, you know, there's been, there's been many over the years who, from Britain, that I know, Control, the Controllables is all about taking ownership, taking responsibility for yourself. But at the same time and age 14, 15, 17, 18, you do need the correct support in place. And I can't help think that they were let down by by the governing body at that time. And this is not about bashing the Lawn Tennis Association, because that's an easy thing to do. But But I hope that they have reflected, it seems like they have, and I have to be fair on this as well. Because Jack Draper, Emma Raducanu , they were the Josh Sapwell type junior players. And I have to tip my hat to the current regime that's working at the Lawn Tennis Association and the people involved, because it seems that they've learned from their mistakes, that they're putting strong systems strong support around these players, because we know going from being a really good junior to a top professional player, as easy as some players make it look, it really isn't an easy thing to do. So I guess blackbox thinking is what I'm thinking, you know, the the aviation industry, they learn from every crash, by the blackbox. They have a little look, they analyze exactly what happened, what went wrong, and then that information is shared. And that moves on then to the to the next generation. And I really do hope that that is happening. It seems like it is it seems like there's been some lessons learned. And and as ever, we need to continue moving that forward.

Victoria Kiernan  52:47

But it's also the one size doesn't fit all thing as well. And it's not just the LTA it's any country to go to Federation and train that isn't always the best choice for players. It's really hard to say no at times, because of things you might be offered, and the funding that goes with that, and the facilities and the backing you get but it doesn't always suit everyone. And it just highlights how important it is to get the right team around each particular player.

Daniel Kiernan  53:18

When you, when you say that Vicki, and I think you're spot on, I think schools I think tennis academies as well. You know, I think if we go to the micro level of tennis academies, tennis clubs, you go outside of tennis, and you go into schools, you go into other clubs, I guess there has to be certain barriers and rules that are put in place that sometimes makes it hard for that individual to flourish. If they are a little bit different. And Josh, by his own admission, was he was a little bit different the way the way he thought I mean, even though he spoke now, you know, it was it was it was a different mentality. And and it got and it goes to show how challenging it is. It's it's a bigger thing than just the tennis world. Because we all as parents, think of our own children. We know the ins and outs that they have the challenges, the trials and tribulations that they go through whether how they see the world how their mind works. And to get the right team around you is absolutely spot on what you said Vicki, and that's the hardest part of this game, I think team

Victoria Kiernan  54:31

Yes, but also the impact just one coach can have on you. I mean, Josh said didn't how incredibly impactful his coach Neil was, and how tough it was for him when they couldn't work together anymore. But on the flip side of that on the you know, looking at the positives, how unbelievably lucky he was to have had that at all. Really?

Daniel Kiernan  54:51

Yeah, it's a team sport. People call it an individual sport. I think we've seen time and time again. Look at ash Barty how or recently retired ash Barty. She always used the word weak. When they when they won a tournament together, she appreciated what went in the latest images coming out of out of America. If you saw Juan Carlos Ferrero, he had to fly home. His father died, unfortunately, passed away. And when he came back the night before Carlos played in the final of his first masters 1000 event, it was just incredible pictures, you know, that was, that was something you can't money can't buy.

Victoria Kiernan  55:32

He came in and surprised him didn't he.

Daniel Kiernan  55:34

He did but the connection you saw it, it was real. You know, it wasn't just somebody who was telling him to hit with more topspin. It was someone that truly is connected to that person. And that's special, and you don't get many special relationships like that in life. When you do get it. It makes a real real difference. You know, Josh had it in abundance. Could somebody have stepped in and played that role? I'm sure they could. Because it also can't be that one player relies on one person for their whole career as well. But But I don't think we can shy away from how important that person is. And I'm sure there's lots of lots of people out there that that feel they've had that as well. And some that don't, but a great a great episode. I could kind of listen to Josh for days. I had loads of questions I wanted ask him again. I hope he's happy. He seems happy. You know, there was still some rawness to the emotion. And I appreciate him sharing that 100%

Victoria Kiernan  56:33

But he did say as coaching has brought the love of the game back which was amazing to hear. It's

Daniel Kiernan  56:38

A sport for life. It's a sport for life at all the levels and we're going to continue bringing you this sport from all the different levels that we can thank you all for listening, but until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan, and we are Control the Controllables