Pat Cash - Wimbledon Men´s Singles Champion 1987

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 188, of Control the Controllables. And a big, big welcome to you if this is your first time listening to Control the Controllables I'm sure today's guest, Pat Cash is going to bring a few of you out of the woodwork. And once you've listened to this one, you can have a have a work through the other 187 amazing episodes, amazing guests. And to our regular listeners, it's a thank you to you, because with your help, we have become the best tennis podcast at the Sports Podcast Awards for the second year running. And we couldn't do that without you guys, without you voting without you sharing the podcast far and wide. And getting it out there for people to take so much from these episodes that they bring back into their life. So a big, big thank you. And, and for me a big well done to the amazing team, the amazing team that sits behind me and does the real work on this podcast. You know, these guys are amazing. They managed to make us sound better than we actually are. They bring it together, they spend time working behind the scenes making sure that I have everything that I need when I go into these conversations with the guests. And a special a special shout out to Vicki, who you will be hearing from at the end of the show. And all sorts of Faye who works tirelessly behind the scenes as well. So a big thanks to to all of you for that. And whilst I'm on that just I haven't asked for a while. But if you could just spare one minute as well, just to jump on whatever podcast platform that you are on. Give it a like give it a subscribe and leave it leave a review and accurate review. You know, it's if you don't feel that you're getting what you want from the podcast then tell us you know, that's also okay. But just spending a minute to do that on your platform really does help the podcast. But onto today's guest and women love him. And boys want to be like him. You know, the the great rock and roll star who came onto our screens all of those years ago with the checkered headband. Like I say the Rock and Roll persona. And then he went and established himself as a legend in the game forever, as he won the 1987 Men's Wimbledon singles title. And I'm proud to say this is the first Wimbledon singles champion that we have had on the podcast. We've had many legends of the sport, but to be able to have someone who I've watched growing up, you know, someone who I've idolized and wanted to be like, and so many of us have, and to watch his career as a player. And then as he's gone into the world of coaching and punditry. You know, we know His voice. Well. You know, he speaks very openly, very honestly. And he really is a brilliant guest. So wherever you are, enjoy. This is Pat Cash. So Pat Cash, a big welcome to control the controllables how're you doing?

Pat Cash  03:21

Thank you. Yeah, very well. Thank you. Oh, here congratulations is in order for you guys. You won an award or something last week or the week before something?

Daniel Kiernan  03:28

Our first guests since we became the two time tennis podcast of the year Pat. So. So thank you, you're the first person to congratulate us in person. So thank you for that. And as I look across, I've got I've got mixed feelings because when I see you because you were one of my idols when I grew up, you know, so I watched you. I looked up at you I loved how you played. However, you're also a part of a big part of my insecurities. Because because we had the same coach and the coach that coached you to winning Wimbledon. Barker's was the coach who for four years told me Jesus, Dan Pat would have, smashed that over the back fence on the on the backhand smash. He says Pat could lift that weight or I could do this. So I was I was forever compared to you in my junior days. I've never quite lived up to it. So I don't quite know how to make it across the across it. Yeah,

Pat Cash  04:37

It's a bit harsh.

Daniel Kiernan  04:40

You said you certainly came up in topic a lot of conversation a lot and rightly so. And we'll get into all of that part as well because you've obviously had an incredible tennis career as a player as a personality is as so many things and anyone in the in the game of tennis knows all about you. But it is the question that can be asked a bit too much. And I don't want to just ask the same, same questions. But how do you a son of a football player? You know, someone who will get into the bad boy image in a bit? How does a sissy sport like tennis come into your world?

Pat Cash  05:16

Yeah, look, I think you're going to cast our mind back a long way, of course to the days when tennis was a massive sport in Australia. And we had, you know, loads and loads of champions. Just one after the other. Obviously, I caught the end, right the end of Ken Rosewall. Yep. But you know, that's the era of, you know, Rod Laver and Roy Emerson. And I mean, I'm gonna miss it that doesn't play as Stoli and Fraser and Roche and Newcombe and Roger Newcombe sort of heroes of mine in court, Ken Rosewall and I obviously knew about Rod Laver. And then I got to learn about Frank Sedgman. These guys early pro days of the pros, and there was loads and loads of tennis courts, it was one of the biggest sports. Now he's even hard to find a tennis court in Melbourne, in Sydney, particularly in the city, Sydney is really hard to find a court. Like tennis courts are valuable real estate, aren't they? And you had to be almost allocated for recreational purposes these days, which is kind of sad, but so many kids play tennis everybody played tennis every played all the rules as well. And yeah, so my dad was a football eligible football player. He's a lawyer, he just wanted to play tennis socially with my mom. And you know, yeah, I went down to Kooyong for first my first tennis lesson. And he thought that's the place to start, which was of course the home the Australian Open back in the days. But right down the back courts were clay. And that's where I really grew up and played most of my tennis. Right until I sort of 15 really on the clay so I was primarily a clay court player, believe it or not, was sort of like the English clay. It was like shale that was very, very similar to that. And Melbourne had a lot of rainy weather. So but my coach Ian Barclay, who I wasn't my first case was on my set my second coach. He had a great bunch of juniors and you know Barker's is like, getting a bloody neck. Get bloodied, move your feet, move your feet. You always hear those sayings that he used to say. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't like playing volley, sir volley are at all bad. Okay, that taught me to play doubles. And then in the summer was all grass. So I got to learn the best of both worlds. And so my, just my dad just wanted me to play tennis. And I just came and joined along and I still played Aussie rules. I still did my athletics are still, you know, running into athletic team at school and playing cricket. It was a cricket captain. And I was doing all sorts of stuff. And in tennis, which is one of those sports, I can play all year as opposed to just to seasonal.

Daniel Kiernan  07:47

And what what one of my beliefs actually in? In the UK system. I've said this a few times on the podcast, that almost Wimbledon is negative to the UK production of tennis players in some ways. And I think it's maybe times are changing. But almost because and I was guilty of this as a player we set ceilings, we almost think, right? Well, if I'm ranked 150 ATP, I get a wildcard. And there wasn't that many people that were I guess, treading that, that road before us that we could relate to who you know, I would even say in my time it was Greg and Tim, but they were kind of untouchable. We kind of didn't really know them. They weren't really treading the path for what you're seeing in that era. Do you think you're on the back end of the great Australian era was that almost normalized that? Well, if you're going to be one of the best in Australia, you're going to be one of the best in the world, which from a mentality standpoint is massive.

Pat Cash  08:44

Oh, I never really thought about that man that much. But I think we had at least we had the blue. We certainly had a blueprint, didn't we, we knew that we had to work really hard. Harry Hartman was the famous coach used to take Australia train players away. And he was the manager of the Australian team back for that in those days for 20 years or whatever. It was a long time and the tennis world was different than he used to travel over on a you know, either on a boat or or, or as a team and travel forever. But you know, there the blueprint of hard work has really stayed throughout, in the Australians. That was that was the number one thing is you work you work hard. Don't worry so much about the technique. It's, I think is was probably a little bit of my downfall with injuries and everything like that. But, you know, we had we had luckily we had great ex-players that were happy to get on and have a hit with us and to play with us and Neal Fraser was always there and those two players, right ruffles took us on on teams and you know, and that that was that was great. I mean, if you look now at what Tennis Australia The ex-players that are involved in Tennis Australia, who are available, there's almost none of them. They don't just don't use them. I mean, what a complete and utter waste of opportunity. Now the Brits who say, okay, you've got Tim and Greg, and you know, Jeremy Bates. And obviously, he's worked in the British British system. Chris Wilkinson, I'm sure I'm forgetting getting a forgetting a few. But, you know, those are the main two guys, Bates and Wilkinson are regularly there, which is great. But we had a plethora of opportunities to hit with with players. So we had a lot of great champions who led us the right way. And we still got a lot of great champions sitting in Australia, but they just aren't used, which is, I think, you know, tennis in Australia have done done pretty well, considering But consider how much how better much better it could have done if they actually used Darren Cahill who live there. And, and, you know, ex-players, Jason Stoltenberg does a little bit stuff. But, you know, the ex-champions, there's, there's, there's a lot of really good players that are out there. And, you know, so but we had the opportunity to use them in our era.

Daniel Kiernan  11:09

Why don't they use them now?

Pat Cash  11:11

I don't know. You'll have to ask them that. Oh, look, I think they probably like to have a system in some regular systematic stuff, where the coaches, the young coaches can come in and, and, you know, travel and stuff, perhaps, you know, an incident this summer, where there's a young, young girl that I've been following and, and, you know, I know a spotter when wants to play the Australian Open and saw some things in a game. To me very obvious. Talk to her afterwards. And I said, Look, I'll talk to your coach, and I'll talk to the head head guy there. And if you know, I'll, I'll tell him if they want to know, I'll I'll give my input for free. I just been following it for a while and, and the message came back. No, thanks. Anyway, we don't have too many voices in our head. I said, okay, so you'd prefer to have the wrong voice in their head them a right voice. And I was like, yep, that kind of sums it up. And that was that was sort of it just a nail another just another thing to shake my head of, like, okay, whatever, you know, if they don't really, they're not even willing to even listen to what I have to say. You know, they could take it, throw it away, do what they want, I'll say okay, you know, we'll keep an eye on that or thanks. Just thanks. Anyway, there was like not we're not we're not interested. So, so there you go. So that's, you know, that I didn't I didn't quite understand and I've been in the UK for living here in the UK for 35 years and I've had one meeting so when meeting with the guys I said Well, what can you do? I said what would you like me to do? I don't know Have a think about it and call you back. And that was good 20 years ago or something and I never never got the call. I never got a call back. But I'm opinionated and I know what I know. And I know what's what's right. And sometimes people don't like to hear oh god, okay, listen, you shouldn't be doing that. Every time I go to to the national tennis center there you know I see the guys working really hard but I see stuff starts going oh my god what are they doing? I mean really I'm like oh my god.

Daniel Kiernan  13:15

Can you give us any without naming names? Can you give us an example

Pat Cash  13:18

well one of the times recently recent news I went out there was what took place that I was traveling with out to play with a British player and there was yeah three courts the indoors there that all those pro players pros playing 123 down the end blasting and a stereo a big stereo system were some the guys are doing some cardio fitness stuff or something like that. And here we got three pros playing in two courts away a young a scream that didn't let the music Dan blaring and whatever Wait a minute, what is this? Is this a frickin nightclub? You're putting a frickin nightclub two courts away from three courts of pros who are gonna be out go out and play the French Open and or whatever it was I just I just couldn't believe it. I'm like how on earth is this possibly happening? And it just every time I go there I scratch my head and go all up but you know that they were being critical there were a lot of good things but you know this The guys are working really hard and it's a really good coach coaching out there and certainly in the LTA and in Australia as well but there's a lot of talent that's not being used as well.

Daniel Kiernan  14:37

But But on that point is because people are scared about sport and people in general you know unfortunately I think in Federation's and again this is not me just bashing Federation's but a lot of people are middle managers within Federation's who are quite happy with their jobs, you know, and, and status corps quite a nice place for Certain people, you know, rather than rather than things being challenged, but if we take if we take the game of tennis, and you've been heavily involved to a very, very high level for a lot of years, you know, almost 50 years now Pat, you've, you've obviously seen the different stages, what has changed in the game, but probably more important than pointing to that linking into what you're saying about how someone like you can add such value. What hasn't changed? What was what are the non negotiables that back in the 1970s 80s? Are the same now in 2023?

Pat Cash  15:41

Well, what tell you what hasn't changed? I get this get this question thrown at me a bit. I remember working with Brandon Nakashima. Yep. With Brandon for about nine months, a few years ago, rebuilding his technique, and his game. Great kid worked really hard. And he had to play on Centre Court. And I said, let's come out come out. And let's have a look at the Centre was gonna put that, remember was now because it was a big one was the first time I plan on a big court, you know, coming out, and I sat there with him the corner said, have a look at that. See, do you notice something you know what? I said the net is the same frickin height as a practice court. The lines are the same frickin size, can't have more than two serves as the rules exactly the bloody same in my day. And your day on that back court or on that standard court. I said nothing changes. It's the same court just constantly. And there's a yellow ball, you got to hit my day it goes, boom, well, and there was whiteboards at one stage.

Daniel Kiernan  16:35

But although those balls do change from tournament to tournament,

Pat Cash  16:39

They do they do. That's true. But basically, the principles are the same. Right? It's just like that, and that that hasn't changed so much movement. You know, we know more about movement, but the great move is past year as you know, Bjorn Boggs, the McEnroe's you float around the court you know move just as well as these other guys maybe then a few inches shorter than then some of these players that are out there now, but they still move unbelievably well. They still had to hit the ball over they still had to play under pressure. They still had to come up with the goods when it mattered they still work on the depth of the ball they still work on you know the the the fine tuning on the on the volleys obviously the volleys in my day you had to have to hit a lot more because of the because of the rackets but the end of the rackets and often I'll pull out my old Wimbledon racket and and give it to a player and the first thing they notice is oh my god, this is heavy. I said just hit a few balls, but they go man, and it's an old magnesium or aluminium racket that that I won Wimbledon where there's any African Prince magnesium was only out for a couple of years players loved absolutely loved it. They wouldn't didn't want to get rid of it. But the thing I noticed is that wow, this got a lot of power. Yeah, it's got a lot of power. And I thought you guys had no power in your rackets. And now I hear that all the time in meetings with Dominic Thiem, when I was doing things work for CNN, I was doing thing and he was just coming up and coming and I did a little thing with him while filming us for about 10 minutes hitting and he's going to Bresnik they're gonna hit and, and afterwards going to comment said, Dominic couldn't believe he didn't realize you hit the ball so hard. And we both laughed. It's like, Well, what did he think? The ball softly like at some 75 year old guy. Yeah, we hit the ball hard. We had faster balls in those days, we didn't have to swing harder at it. It's slightly faster court so we couldn't swing at it. So in a lot of the principles are the same. You know, obviously, the strings have been massive difference. It'd be no more about recovery. That's been the math then a huge thing. We know more about recovery, how to how to keep the body healthy, how to bounce back, that means you can go out and can play harder, you can train a little harder you can recover. Yeah, the psychology I think of the sport is it's a slight slightly different now. I think, in actual fact, probably in my day, there was more nowadays more tactics because we couldn't just last the winner from 20 feet behind the court. But that makes a different tactic as well. So yeah, it was more of a game of chess, I suppose. In my day, because there wasn't a lot of power hitters, obviously Boris Becker Ivan Lendl and then Agassi and Sampras and , which came in towards the end of my career, so they hit the ball. bloody hard, that's for sure. But, you know, they're the technique of course, I think technique is it's all sort of came through in the era was between the old school and new, you know, Bjorn Borg open stances. You know, that sort of stuff. You know, Agassi came after me so I learned I had to learn a lot at the recent restructure my game and went back to the drawing board and learned all that stuff. And I'm fascinated by the movement and, and the balance and the rotation. When and where all that comes from it's not just like a rotates okay? How do you rotate? It's it's different it's one thing knowing you have to rotate and other thing okay? How do we as body actually rotate? So yeah, it's fascinating I'm, I hated tennis for while I'm learning and I really enjoyed it at the end even though I couldn't quite mentally changed my game and and learned a lot from it I want to get back to that here to tennis for a while shortly, but just whilst we're talking about I guess the, the modern game compared to the I always think we it during any era in anything we almost the longer time goes, the less we respect any era, you know, he is which is this like crazy, you know, crazy phenomenon that human beings I guess, you know, we look back at even like football players, soccer players and oh my god, he was so slow. I couldn't do this, but we don't really have any idea. But but on on that point I was speaking to out in Indian Wells, a couple of performance analysts, who were obviously studying the game from from that standpoint. And one thing that they said about Alcaraz, and also Rune is ensured me when you when you start watching, they are bringing in their hits after second serve and come into the net again, you know, that seems to be something that maybe disappeared for a while. And then then the big one there, certainly Alcatraz and I think it's something like 82% winning percentage he has on this shot, which is the drop shop, you know, and he's actually playing it after the serve. You know, and it seems like there's a little bit more of that guile potentially coming into the game that that hasn't maybe been certainly perceived to have been there the last 10 or 15 years. I don't know if that's what you're seeing as well. Yeah, look, I think, you know, when you seeing players like Roger Federer bringing that, that bringing the drop shot in a minute, after he's won, you know, 12 grand slams, or whatever it is, and all sudden he starts incorporating a drop shot. You think, Oh, this guy's wanting to improve. I mean, just the most brilliant player that we've probably ever seen. Shot wise, is still learning to learning his tactics. I think he bought a drop shot he started for a while there wasn't coming near the net was he and even when he mumbled into the back of the court and and, and then I think tennis Does, does evolve. But, you know, if you look at the really good players and Murray, obviously Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, who improved, he's touched, they've all got very good job shots, they all got very good volleys, they got very good. You know, they got very good slices. You know, Rafa is just an amazing solution solver. People watching most people watch him and go, he's not doing much different. But you know, if you really watch him playing in a match, you'll make sure it's a war of attrition, you got to, you know, he has a belief that he can keep it going for a long time and you just break players down. But, you know, he changes things up, if somebody's got a rhythm, he'll change it up, and he'll throw in these slices, throwing the drops or throwing them the volleys and, and things like that. And then the slice is, it's, it's necessary, because there's so many good players that doing certain things. And when we lost the sort of serve and volley aspects, sort of, what if you take one shot out of tennis, the rest of the rest of the shots, players get better at those shots? Yeah, that'd be like, it'd be like, you know, playing golf and saying, Okay, well, what we're gonna do is we're gonna get a cut out, cut out the chip shot, fear here within 50 Managing, just drop it on the green. All right, so a hell of a lot more players, who are really good at drives and really good at putting . So you take a shot away, which is primarily the chip charge and the volley. Then players get really good at that'd be found an area with everybody was so good, just never missed the damn ball and running, running, running. And David, David Ferrers and, and these sort of players were just, you know, brutal, and you had to, they had to find a way to beat these sort of guys. And one of the dropshot and some angles was one of the things that we've seen come back,

Daniel Kiernan  24:12

And talking of modern day players, and Pat Cash being outspoken. Mr. Kyrgios. And I know you've you have been asked this question a lot, I'm sure. You know, it's a big it's a big topic. And I guess, my my point on you, you have been quite outspoken on him not being good for the sport. And I guess my challenge to you, is he not just a young Pat Cash.

Pat Cash  24:41

I never really said he's not good for the sport I think I think he's, I think he's, he's bad for attitudes. Yeah. But the people watching people want to watch him. And so why I mean, he's a brilliant player. He's a he's a extremely brilliant player who will continue to do well at Wimbledon. I'm not sure about the other slams. But with the serve that he's got, I mean, it's the best serve on a tour. You know, and it's fascinating. It's fascinating watching him, I said this quite a number of years ago, maybe five years ago, I said, Nick, and just improve his mental capacity to be able to focus in matches, just 5% Every year, or 3% Every year, then he will be contending for grand slams. And that's exactly what he's done. He's done really well, in that respect, he realizes that he's never going to be perfect, and he's going to explode and he's going to you know, lose his temper and you know, I'm certainly one of the ones who who did that. But you know, not to the respect that I of course, I might have yelled at my my coach in frustration at some stage. But you know, if you ask Barker's how many times I did that he wouldn't be kind of on the same hand, you know, you look at your horse, maybe you're gifted got, it wouldn't be a set without them doing a handful of times, you know, I did a handful times my whole career.

Daniel Kiernan  26:00

There was that the big. It's the respect, is that the thing that you see is the big difference of what Nick's doing, compared to the bad boys yourself, Johnny Mack, that, that, that that period?

Pat Cash  26:16

Well, you know, it's hard to say John McEnroe is that they didn't have much respect for any players. You know, Bjorn Borg is about the only one other than that he got you want to get stuck into you. And he you copped it and you gave it back. And that was there wasn't microphones around 20 microphones around the end and that was just the that was just the way just the way it went. I think you know, John certainly pushed the envelope more than more than probably should have that should have been allowed no doubts about it. He got away with jumping all the way over a lot and he got nailed for quite a lot but he got away with a lot. And Nick has got away he plays he plays the victim very well and all while he only brings after me and nobody likes me in these old layers. You know, that's not true at all ages it's still in his head. But you know many it's I think the I was critical of that matches since the past Wimbledon last year just got out of control you know, the just the abuse the insulting and the assaulting and everything else and bowl slamming. And it's, you know, and it happens every once in a while and a match but you just this this went on and on and on. And it just got out of control and to be to give Nick credit, I think he realized that and he pulled his head in and did pretty well I did really well and that and that that should have been a good sign for him to say you know what, you know, I can I can play this way. Okay, you know, I'll let some steam off that I can I can you know I can play really good tennis without having to get into the face of opponents and abuse people in the crowd and abuse umpires and all that sort of stuff and not to say that I haven't done it and at some stage but you know that was that mask was a bit out of control and I think that was it they will I think that both players stepped over the line in that match. It wasn't just Nick

Daniel Kiernan  28:05

What would you do if you coach them?

Pat Cash  28:07

Well that's an that's another Yeah, that's a whole nother thing. I don't think I would coach somebody like that. Because not not talent wise. I mean, it'd be fantastic. First of all, I don't think he'd want to want to coach but to the neck it's it's about work, work effort, output and input and mental stuff. I mean, that's every now you've got the shots it's not that not the case it's better to do it do it long enough for five or six matches obviously last week when he got default from from Rafa but I think he probably would have beaten Rafa anyway. You know, he wasn't 100% fit, but he didn't have to go through the extra match, which was good for him. But he did he handled himself well, in the final I thought he could have come out and be in a bucket of nerves. So he's not he's not far off really putting it all together. But it's not going to be it's not easier. It's not going easy. It's getting harder. So he's been out with an injury. But you know, the mental thing and a physical thing really to try and get into just to work a little harder.

Daniel Kiernan  29:08

We're going to start the campaign Cash Kyrgios Wimbledon 2023

Pat Cash  29:14

Please don't, I couldn't handle it like I'd last about a week.

Daniel Kiernan  29:21

Yeah, as long as you can last two weeks, as long as you can last two weeks. You can get get through Wimbledon, then that could be it. And a new part of like I say, a personality now you know, you're you're you're bigger than just tennis. But if you are at the core of it all a tennis player and a bloody successful tennis player. I forgot to say at the start actually, you're our first Wimbledon singles champion on the podcast, which is which is a real privilege for us to have you on Wimbledon 87 I remember it well as a seven year old. But I do. I do remember it. Well, that was that year was when I was really getting into tennis. It's an obvious it's an obvious natural highlight. So I'm going to take that one out because we're going to talk about that anyway. What would be your your biggest career highlight outside of Wimbledon 1987.

Pat Cash  30:25

Davis Cup for sure. It goes without saying winning to Davis cups for Australia In Australia was big. Got to another final play the US in Florida. That was exciting. We didn't quite perform as well as we could have had a very good very solid team. I can see in Chiang and then probably as a as growing up probably the thrill. Biggest cereal would probably been the original Super Saturday at the US Open 1984. So I suppose you were just born then. But that was just they call it the greatest day in tennis history. And it was the semi final. And in those days. In those days, they had the TV network. The TV network wanted all the good matches on the weekend. So they had and now we have men's semifinals on Friday. And then the final on Sunday. They wanted everything. So they wanted that whole afternoon and night of men's semifinals on the Saturday and they had the women's final thrown in the middle. And and then the men at the moment you wake up in the morning, loosen up and you go down and play on a twilight final. So on that day, I was the unknown player, but there was three players who were vying for world number one. There was Lendl McEnroe and Connors, Connors and McEnroe hated each other. Probably still do. They'd get on. I've seen that place and legends events every season pretty calm, relaxed and respectful these days, but not back then. So they were playing each other in one semi finals playing Lendl and another semi final and you know, I had a run in with Lendl at one stage I was determined to try and join beat him you know, he was I think he was a well number one then the other guys were just behind him. And I lost to him. Actually, the beginning of the day was Stan Smith versus John Newcomb and the legends final that which went to, I think six, four and the third or seven, five and the third. Then we came on. I lost the Lendl seven, six in the fifth. Having had a match point, then did a great lob over my head for us. For a split second, I thought I'd won the match. Then stepped in Martina Navratilova and Chris Abbott Well, number one and two, they were playing a women's final that went right down to the wire I think seven five sets and five in the in the third round was six, four, but it wasn't it was Richie went down to the wire. And then they had McEnroe and Connors, which meant to seven, five and the fifth. So it was 12 hours and literally nonstop. You know, at the at the at the time, when I woke up in the morning, I was like, Oh my God, thank God, I have to play the final. Still absolutely exhausted. But it was a it was a great thing to motivate me to keep going because I had matchpoint on Lendl. And it haunted me for a long time. But people will remember that. You won't, of course, but you could look it up.

Daniel Kiernan  33:33

It's the top of my list. So in my notes I have I've got your Korea and what I what I've written the wait as soon as you said, what I've got written here Super Saturday 1984 US Open lens. That's yeah, so that was I, I I would be lying if I said I remember as a kid as a baby. But as something that does stick in my mind as someone who likes the history of the sport to who follows it. That is something that I have watched on numerous times, I think it's close to 13 hours of tennis that was in in the three matches. So to hear you what I love about that is not that I wanted you to lose but you lost yet. Yeah. And this is this is something that, you know, as, as we go through memories of tennis, it's not just about the winning, you know, it's the it's the memories, it's the emotions, it's the, the experiences and you know, the fact that you so fondly shared that I think that says so much about you but also about that day as well. Yeah,

Pat Cash  34:39

it was it was a different era and it was but it was it was I broke I'd broken through by getting the semi final Wimbledon's 84 played McEnroe in a semi finally played pretty well considering I was absolutely exhausted by time I got there because I played the doubles as well, which not many people do, but it was my honor to play with Paul Magnum. One of the supermax so we played the piano was out with a knee injury. And so I got picked up by by Paul who was was awesome. So we got to the final but first round match went to four sets, every other match went to five cents. So I was backing up singles got walking on the doubles, to wet and playing Five set match every single match, we got to the final and then last the McEnroe and Fleming in five sets. And, and then I played a play John in the, in the semi final the day, the day before and played pretty well. But it was dead. But it was it was a good match, actually some good highlights on YouTube of that match. And I look back at it and go, you know, if you want to think the players are slow back in those days, just have a look at the way that you know my mood in the net. And I was still young. But John, wait, John moved into the net. Lightning fast. I mean, just so fast anticipation and the ball was hard and fast. I mean, one of us, one of the shots he hit was in the icebreaker in the second set maybe. And I sort of came to a lunge down to a volley and it was flies floating balls, it floated flow looked like it was going to look like going out and bounce on the line. And he had no no pace whatsoever, had it in the back hand corner and I'm like, I've got him I've got got lucky. And pretty much on the baseline with no pace, and I'm standing and I picked the side and I was standing I was gonna pick this because other than that, I'll pick the side aside. And I sort of shuffled and bluffed a little bit, but stay there hit the ball so hard, straight down my line that and I was like, I'm really quick, as you know, it went past my racket before he even got there. I mean, I got my racket on the ball, but and he's like, look at that and say, Tell me the players didn't hit the ball hard in those days. It's just like, it was I watched it the other day, somebody pulled it out. I was like, I cannot believe how to hit that ball. I cannot believe it. Skinny John McEnroe. Right.

Daniel Kiernan  37:01

And I have what this brings also to me, you you said earlier, and we all set, the modern day of tennis, one of the big changes is the recovery, and also the physical training that side of things. However, back in your day, you were playing four or five set, singles, matches and doubles matches. You were you would go on through this, it wouldn't happen. Now it is I mean, you go to I mean, I'd be not like Indian Wells in Miami, these singles guys, seconds are in the quarterfinals of singles, the best of three sets, they pull out of doubles. So so if I'm not denying that the recovery and the and the science and all of this is better, however, does that mean that the resilience was better back in the day? You know, because it seems like you guys Yeah, put yourself through and you weren't the only one doing doubles? You know, Johnny Mack did that. singles and doubles the whole time. You know, very mean it to serve and volley games unbelievably tough on the body, as well. You know, I do know, some tech, there's there seems to be a missing link for me sometimes on that, that. I just wonder whether maybe the recovery is better. But the the mentality of the resilience, the perseverance isn't quite

Pat Cash  38:20

Well. You know, I think they're, they're conscious of their careers and not not hurting themselves. But yeah, it's a fine line, isn't it? Players pulling out or they get a sniffle of a cold or whatever. Now that we didn't we just got out there and toughed it out. And, you know, there's not many guys in my era that are actually walking properly anymore, you know, all got limps or knee or hip replacements, or whatever else. So you got to give these guys credit, they've been playing till they're 35 and 38, even, whatever, but you know, and that's because they've been selfish. I suppose you have to be selfish as a tennis player, because you're the if you're a singles player certainly, and you have to look after yourself, you're your priority. So yeah, like, a lot of the time I certainly talked about the commentators and well, we had somebody pulled out of the match, you go, Oh, my goodness, you know, come on, you gotta you gotta you gotta tough this out. We are live TV, you can't just walk off a match, you know, you gotta play you gotta put but you know, then they last they survived, they last longer. So are they sensible? Or they, you know, it's a fine line, isn't it? So I, I'm sort of coming around to, you've got you've got to be able to tough matches out and you can't just default every time you got a niggle, because when it gets to the final of a tournament, you're not going to be in perfect shape. You're going to be tired, sore, whatever. So you got to be able to play a little bit through that, but you can't play through the horrible pain. But their careers are lasting longer. I mean longer than my year. I mean, before that the careers lasted way longer. I mean, look at Ken Rosewall and Rod Laver, they were playing great tennis at 38. And there's Jimmy Connors as well. So when I used to play in all sorts of surfaces everywhere and they didn't do any physics so maybe

Daniel Kiernan  40:04

you guys were the soft ones.

Pat Cash  40:06

Yeah, I might have been I don't know. I don't know what it was about that that era was but there was a lot a lot a lot of injuries as well as the guys tennis elbow and the Quint and whatever else so yeah, look it has I mean that's things have changed and the strings of course, there'll be a bit more topspin and more power so you can probably generate more pace with with less effort I suppose in some ways

Daniel Kiernan  40:29

but anyway that's that's get to the real thing part that bastard Lendl beat your seven six in the third in 84' up to five out of six times going into Wimbledon you know that that period that year? I believe you you made as your final loss to Edberg you know you you'd come through at Bergen the semies of 87 to find yourself against Lendl he would never win Wimbledon and still hasn't to this day but there was a little bit of heat as well in that relationship you know you you guys would go out each other I spoke to Barker's so much about this you know like I love talking to him about getting I love getting my Pat stories and I used to love getting the girls stories but also also the also the Wimbledon stories and I remember he said you'll correct me if I'm wrong on this but he said the morning of is two things I told Part one was if he serves at 70% first serves he wins the match today and two we're gonna give we're gonna give Lendl a sore neck with with with the lob. And I don't remember the exact numbers but he said something like you served at 70.8% or what you just basically hit the target and obviously won the match 7-6 6-2 7-5 take take us back to 1987 Wimbledon champion.

Pat Cash  41:52

Well, yeah, I lost I played Lindell a few times when I was younger includes including that the US Open semifinal played him on grass when I think might have been the same year maybe the year before. But I beat him in the Australian Open semifinal and on the grass and so I was going into the final pretty confident beat Jimmy Connors he'd beat here surprise and surprise me by beating Edberg that wasn't focused necessarily on who was winning. I just whoever won won. But I gotta say I was reasonably happy that that Lendl beat Edberg there. Yeah, the court was the courts were fast. He couldn't stay back. He just couldn't stay back not against the serve-volley, attacking players of that era that the quality was just too good. They'd been in there would have been in the net Connors stayed back a little bit. That's the way you did hit the ball, this the service, just skimmed over the net and hit the ball so flat. They can sort of get away with it. But I think Lendl realized that if they'd been in a final before that, you know, that serving and volleying was it was and he was a very good serve vollyer yeah I mean, it wasn't an awesome volleyer but he was he was good but you need I needed to make just enough volleys forcing enough volleys that he'd make a mistake and then we'll hit so it was all about really was about the returning ironically and obviously keeping the service percentage up serving in the volley I could I could do the unknown was how well Lendl would serve he had a big serve big second serve as well as it kicked and it was a matter of making him play enough volleys and you know, I was able to do that he for some reason I don't know why are still expecting that I expect him to serve a lot more than my forehand he just kept serving in the back hand I think my forehand has hit was was hit and miss little hit and miss. I think he was worried that I would hit the flashing few winners and least he knew that he could get with my backhand he would probably get more more volleys. I don't know I'd have to really ask him about it be honest, what the tactics were but I was pretty happy with it. Yeah, and then flip the lob over his head if I possibly could which, which which was pretty successful. I think it just about hit every one of those. There's probably six or eight of them that they've received and but it was tight and tight. First set, tiebreaker Nervous, nervous but both tight and I got through that tiebreaker and a great second set after that didn't lose a point on my serve for the whole set and then the third set he got a break I managed to break back and yeah, so lost lost a bit of energy momentum. And so I remember sitting down at it was at five, three, and five to 5-4 something like that. I looked up to the box thinking oh, you know, Linda was up a break here. And Barker's in my sports psychologist or on their feet going into jeering me up. Come on, come on, come on. I mean, you'd see this a lot now but you don't You never used to see it then you know, the coaches never quiet and polite and all that sort of stuff and you know, a little bit of yelling out but they'll both on the chair and I was like, oh, okay, they need me to fire up and that I really had to jump around and get them out. right my toes down and I managed to break twice in a row and and hold on to win the title

Daniel Kiernan  45:06

Serving for Wimbledon you know you you train all your life you put yourself in pressurized situations on the practice court you you think these are things or you dream about it, but actually standing up to the line serving knowing that if you hold serve one more time you're the Wimbledon champion forever tell us what's going through your head at that point.

Pat Cash  45:30

Yeah, well, in theory I ideally not much you just focus on focus on the ball toss focus on as your program says control the controllables which is basically your emotions as best you can. But you know, you're right I mean, it's you cannot avoid the fact that you're out there about the serve for the for the title and you know, I've done it a big occasion I've done that twice and the Davis Cup final you know, didn't quite get there the Australian Open final loss two long five set matches, I never actually served for it but you just got to go through go through your routine I've worked with sports psychologists so that was almost a new a new format a new discipline really is it sports psychologist at the time, he came to the Institute of Sport in Canberra where they have the Olympics Olympic athletes train there, I was lucky enough to work with with Jeff Jeff Bond for quite a quite a while Anne Quinn No, My trainer was their doctor Anne Quinn. So she was very motivational. You know, we just really positive bunch of guy and people and, and I was pretty negative, you know, I was always seeing the bad side of my game. And, and, you know, most of the most of the men that picked me up, I was the worst critic, I was absolutely the worst critic to myself, but you know, you go through the routines, you're supposed to be focused, but when you when you stand up, the crowd start roaring. You they know you're serving for the Wimbledon title, and you just cannot replicate that you just hope that you can put it all together and, and and stick with your routines. And in that was about the best I could do and just hope that everything went according to plan. Which it did just a bit. But yeah, you you play these point by point. And that's it was it's really boring to hear that now players commentating or coaches or whatever it happens to be football teams, or we're just taking one match at a time or it's just another match. We're playing the World Cup final or FA Cup or whatever the League Cup, just but it's just another match. That was the sort of stuff that I was saying that I was I was taught to say and taught to act, apologize for every every report, I can no longer get anything juicy out of a coach, but it works. It works. That's That's why I did it. And you know, I believe that it's okay, just take one point in time. Don't focus on anything. But you stand up in my head, it straightaway came the you're serving for the Wimbledon title. Don't screw it up, actually came a bit kind of bit more exploited than that actually. It came straight to my head, which is exact opposite of how I train myself and what we did. But I laughed I actually laughed at myself. And a kind of loose kind of, because I saw the absurdity of what I was actually came straight into into my brain. And so I giggled and actually afterwards, my sports psychologist said what I saw you laughing and you coming out to serving and I said well, this is what came straight into my head and I always told him he's like, Oh my god, really? I say I know. It's hilarious, right? Well, that's all the training we've done. He said well I've worked in a reverse way he just got laughed and said and kind of relaxed me I suppose but lucky I I held the love so so but yeah, it has experienced like you can never can never imagine is walking out and onto the Centre Court for final and then actually serving for the final and, you know, you just pick your spots. We've got to get the ball toss and you know, and all the rest is kind of automatic. Really.

Daniel Kiernan  49:13

And life changed forever.

Pat Cash  49:17

Well, yeah, I suppose it did. I mean, if the ironic thing was that, you know, I felt I was one of the top players anyway, you know, I was 11 seed, but two good weeks, makes you a legend for life. But I don't feel any didn't really feel any different. Just but you have to prove it, you actually have to do it. It's one thing saying oh, I'm good enough to win. That other thing actually doing it. And, and, you know, I'm one of the lucky few to actually have done it. There's not a lot of Wimbledon champions out there and in singles. And so, yeah, you know, you need to get a bit of luck and you need things to fall your own way and I'm the first to admit that you had a bit of luck and everything and things fell my way and you know, and you gotta take the opportunity arises and I think most players will admit that even the ones that have won multiple times, you need a bit of luck. And if you took them back and re won three times the last one in the middle there, he could have won probably four or five in a row. But, you know, he lost the Connors unexpectedly, but he would say, yeah, he needed a bit of luck. I mean, he played Chris Lewis, and the final one of them. I mean, that was a heck of a bit of luck. He was never gonna lose. Chris Lewis Louie is a good player. And as I used to train with him quite a bit, but, you know, we all win like God, Lewis is in the final. So you know, that's a that's a, you know, the baby on board and one of them and, and annihilate Connors and the other one, so, they're not bad as those guys but you know, you need a bit of luck. So I think my father was really happy about that. Because, you know, he said, I, you know, you're you're made for life. You know, and I think you realize you're gonna go through a divorce and and stuff like that. Yeah. But I get the chance to chat with you. That's, that's a benefit. That's one of the benefits.

Daniel Kiernan  51:09

Exactly. But I think it is so interesting, because I've not I have not won Wimbledon. I've not coached to play to win Wimbledon. But I I, I have one lad who was he was actually about he was 300, the world ATP, but he got a wildcard into the doubles and the mixed doubles. And he went on a bit of a run in the mixed doubles Book Three years ago, and made the quarterfinals actually served for both sets and no British guy. So you think, the pinnacle Wimbledon, I know, it's mixed doubles. It's not men's singles, but it's still it's Wimbledon. And I remember that night, we went for dinner. And he was so stressed because he was sorting flights out to go to America the next day, to go and play a challenger tournament. And there was just no life just continued. It just, it just continued. You know, and, and it's almost like, we we build this thing up, as coaches as parents as players as we go through the hard yards, and we're working hard, but life's gonna be all good. If we reach that pinnacle. And you know, there's no pinnacle, like the Wimbledon champion in our sport and just even hearing you speak there almost seem like it applied more pressure. Because it's then you now have something to prove you've got You've almost got a place to protect. And and I know you've spoken openly in various interviews and various places that you then went into a place of depression, maybe not straight after that. But how much does almost the success and that high almost you think, equate to then what can become a low?

Pat Cash  52:54

It doesn't necessarily have to be. Yeah, I think like everybody, I suppose everybody's different. It just the way that I had, having been sort of raised grown up as, as the elite athlete and I need some luck. I was just born a good athlete, I don't know, whatever. That was always winning. I was always winning, and then all sudden, you don't start winning and you started coming to the end of your career and you start getting injured and things don't work for you, you know, what do you what do you what else do you know, and that was my that was? That was my self belief, self confidence. And that's the thing with athletes is that you're known for your results. And it's tough. That's why it's really tough on juniors, who you play, you could be a little 12 year old or you could be a giant 12 year old has a giant 12 year old little toy you're gonna be so you can't have your self esteem based on results. Because anything can happen. But we as athletes and as tennis players, that's what we compare ourselves to that's what's your ranking? What's your ranking, you know, you're better than me, I'm better than you, I beat you in this match. I'm better than you. And that's and you know, so it's, it's horrible to to lose and they come off but as coaches I think it's one of the important things to do is for us to really contemplate you know, work on the things that we on the process and you know, looking back on the process for me wasn't necessarily the most enjoyable thing because I used to kill myself. But it was just it was to win matches and so that was what it was all about. Now my belief my coaching believe philosophy is changed it's it's about enjoying the process about doing the little things about the really the fine things and that and that's that's kind of my job is to clean up all the all the messy stuff that's around around the players game or nutrition or sleep or various things like that, that say things can hopefully just fall into place. I mean some of the best coaching lead But done didn't necessarily have results, but I can walk away from that go, you know, why did I hack on effort, you know, everything was lined up. But it just didn't didn't happen as successfully as we wanted. And so be it. But you know that to the nth degree of, you know, getting into meditation, get into sports psychology, getting into changing rackets, sending strings, adapting all these little things that that a coach needs to do. And so the process is, is what it's about, not necessarily the results you say, the results will happen if you go out there and do what we've done and have a belief that you are now fitter because you brought on this trainer, and now you're mentally stronger, you will be fine when you're serving for the match or under pressure, you'll be better you'll recover better from that match, you know, you all these things you can put into place and negate cost sometimes they cost a lot of money work with some top people but that is the process and just have a belief in the process and just go out there and and you'll be fine. And so you know, I didn't really quite though I had a good time with Ian and with Barker's and like my team, a great team. You know, I think I probably relied more on the on the results because and that was when the results stopped coming from from injuries or retirement. Then where was my self esteem coming from? And I wasn't too sure lucky. I was a father and you know, I could put myself in my kids but you know, there's only so much that can that can do for you. Yeah, didn't fall into bad depression at times.

Daniel Kiernan  56:31

Yeah. And was that when you were playing or after you stopped playing

Pat Cash  56:35

Both mainly towards the end at the end? I didn't I didn't want to sell or restricted my game or rebuilt my game had enthusiasm about my game and the biomechanics and all this sort of stuff, which I learned from an Australian guy called Brad Langer he was in the UK for for quite a while. And through I met him and I was playing as at the end of my career, and I played I played I had to play qualities Wimbledon qualifier which I, which I did, and he saw me play one match. And he'd helped me with my kind of back problem. So I had to change my serve. So you helped me a little bit we landed on the right leg, didn't you? Yes, I used to come in like Boris back in the old days, the players, the players used to step step in the court. And the reason now they hop in with them on that front leg, they hop in and then run off. And Most people don't realize that tennis rules back in the 50s. And a guess was that you cannot your foot could not leave that you could not leave the ground. So when you served me now. So yeah, it's right for me. Yeah, exactly. But soon as you there was a guy looking for you if you came off the ground foot fault. So you had to do anyway to get into the net and serve volley was it did a walk into the court, basically the walk in so your foot would hit the ground, you'll enter the court as you hit the ball. And so you couldn't hop. So that's where that's walking surf came back, it was obviously the most successful server and that of that without power. But I was still taught that that but that that that wasn't great for my back. So I had to learn the other way around. So I learned that Brad helped me with that. And then he saw me play a match at Wimbledon the quallies. And I said, Hey, Brad, what are you doing today? Oh, might be here now. I didn't know that. And he said that. Here's a Here's a letter. Don't open it until after Wimbledon. I'm like, okay, so he promised me not to open it until after Wimbledon. And I was like, Okay, well, I put in my bag and I qualify last to Byron black first round. Which is just I think it was a last one hospital it might be a second last. And I just forgot about the letter. And then I found all my here's this letter, so open it up. And this is before the days of the replays and you could go on log online and get in and get your whatever what one one of my matches. And he said, The note was you can't this you can't do that with that shot. This shot. You can't do that. You'll only hit me I hit that way. And then he just basically knew my game and I'm like, Okay, well, I guess he kind of knew my game a little bit anyway. But, you know, I called him and said, How did you feel biomechanically can't possibly do A, B and C? And I was like, Tell me more. He said, When you get injured because your knee or we come through here, blah, blah, blah. I said, Yeah, it is injured. And so I said, I want to learn what do you what do you mean? He says, Well, I'm now I'm a scientist. Basically, I'm a scientist. I do biomechanics, body movement, specialist and, and that's when I really started enjoying tennis, but I couldn't get I changed my game. I had so much fun doing it frustrating at times. But at the end of my career, I was actually hitting the ball harder than I ever did my life serving bigger than I ever did in my life. So I went under the legends to it because they invited me on the legends tour but I still wanted to play on the tour. And I couldn't get into it. I just wouldn't give me a wildcard anywhere I went. It was I got I think I asked for applied for something like 30 Something wildcards and I got three really And then that's, that's it, I was just depressed about it. And I was like, I'm playing legends events, I don't want to be playing legend, I want to be playing Progress, and I felt really bad depression. And, you know, that kind of sort of came on and off until, you know, for quite a while until I, I did a lot of a lot of soul searching a lot of meditation, a lot of self help a lot of a lot of courses and last 20 years has really been all about that is working on myself and getting better and, and understanding them the mental side of being human and, and combining that with with the tennis. So it's yeah, it's an interesting bottleneck, I suppose when you when you come to everything can funnels into to will it work on the court as a coach or do like for me as a player force, but

Daniel Kiernan  57:55

no, but even I mean, fair play to you Pat, I think, also you sharing that, because I think the reality is most of us, in the tennis industry, in various roles that we play, whether that's as a player, as a parent, as a coach, as, you know, as a fitness coach, as an academy director, we can hold our self esteem and self worth to results to the as a coach to the players that you coaching. You know, there's that if a player's winning if, you know, as a player, naturally, the results of the tournament you're playing, you know, I think it's such a it's such a monumental topic actually. Because that that does tend to be and it's, I think it's a it's a we need to normalize this conversation because it is what happens. It's, you know what I mean, you're not, you're not the first the last you, you're the one that's able to talk about it, but how many people haven't been able to talk about what their what they've experienced? And I mean, I even know I mean, I, I started coaching, as I said, Lloyd Glasspool and Harri Helliovarra, at the end of last year, one of the big things I've definitely liked about that is the relevance that it's given me is like, you know, and I know enough, hopefully at 43 years old to not put it all just on on that, but it has it's massaged my ego a little bit, I'm working with a good team. Now, you know, I'm at these at these events. And, and I would imagine going back 10 years, if that ended, I would look at myself that really like me as a person, not me professionally, you know, and I think that's quite a normal thing that a lot of people a lot of people do. So if you were that the person that's listening to this right now, what would your message be to them, if they're going through a similar sort of experience of questioning their self worth self esteem, and falling into depression?

Pat Cash  1:02:57

Let me start by saying, the tennis circuit is brutal, you know, you know this, but I'm going to come out and say, No one gives a shit about you on the tennis tour. Okay, if you're winning grand slams, they'll, they'll, they'll kiss your ass doing to get you to do interviews and their stuff for them. So they can have a job though, with ATP, WTA, whatever TV production, their job is to kiss your ass, they can, you can do something for them. Nobody gives a shit about you, I'm sorry. So you have to give a shit about yourself. So you have to understand your value yourself or the Oh, you're beautifulness you're you're, you're an incredible thing that you that the abilities that you have, and they may not always be able to win Wimbledon tennis or title or whatever. But everybody's got some great skills. And to see and to see that and realize that, that your team, the people around you, the nice people around you are so so important. And so, you know, the tennis circuit looks great. I mean, how can we see that? It's the same old story in movies or whatever, all these people you know, I had everything and then I blew it and got into drugs and drink and depression and whatever because it was so empty outside of that. Yes. Yes. So fill yourself full of your own love and your own value and you know, hang in and the people that really you really like that is so so very important and go out there and try and enjoy enjoy tennis. That's that's absolutely crucial. And and that's why following the process and enjoying the process is so important, because it's it's if you ever watched, I don't know if you've ever and I noticed this all the time at the end of the Grand Slam and super exciting match. And I mean the commentating box and everyone's going crazy. Oh my god, I won. I won the match. It's the greatest show we've ever seen Roger Federer, he finally well, whatever hell it happens to be Five minutes later hold things flat. Anyway. That'd be good. Okay, sounds great. I'm gonna go home now. What can we get your train on? It was fun wasn't it? Nobod gives a shit. You know? I mean, you walk away go on. I didn't, I did and Federer would I'm sure as well. I was like, you know, that was I wanted to push myself and I wanted to see if I could do that. And I did. And I have these great, great pride. But so imagine what it's like when you're losing second round every tournament or third round every tournament. You know, it is it is really soul destroying. So you've got to have that self love and just realize that and how to do that. Well, you know, I'm not here to preach to you but but that's, that's the important thing to know that, you know, you're a very worthy human being doesn't matter if you win or lose. And that's, it's hard. It's hard.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:50

Brilliant. What's one question that you think someone should have asked you but Never has?

Pat Cash  1:06:02

You should have prepped me on this one. Something just popped in my head? I don't know why it just did. And I probably have been asked this but one of the mistakes I'll be honestly say one of the mistakes that I see on the circuit and my career is switching tennis rackets for money. Contracts and I think that was a mistake. I struggled to find a racket that I liked after my my Prince contract. I actually use Yonex they're very good rackets now, back then they weren't so good. I just couldn't quite find the right racket. But I've also seen that in players that I've that I've worked with and they constantly trying to change rackets you find a racket to stick to it. There's not a lot of money unless you're Federer and Nadal. Djokovic, or somebody like that Murray whatever Sharapova Serena there's not a lot of money in tennis rackets anyway, just get the tennis racket you like then you win plenty of money with the racket. And yeah, that's you know, so I reckon probably, you know, why did you change to a Yonex racket money really instantly and it was a mistake. So ironically, it was a mistake so goes to prove it's not it's not always worth it, you know? But you know, people do ask me you know, what, what do you agree to read about your career and part of me goes well, after Wimbledon I had so many offers have so much money and I decided not to take that so I'm not money orientated by any shot anybody knows me and as a shadow, not money orientated at all? Probably shouldn't be more but you know, I had a great office to do that I think wow, I should have gone to you know, played over in Japan they're off meager crazy money and there's somewhere else and but I was tired. You know, I was I was exhausted. And I had a family too and so I want to spend time with them. So part of me go as well I should have just cash grab grab that money, you know, that I should have done in my career. But then I was looking after trying to look after my career and I still got a lot of injuries anyway that I mean, back as an island to South Africa to play a great and amazing experience. Unfortunately, it was it was during the apartheid and I had to go down there either play down there to get into the into the finals ATP finals, which was, which is in Madison Square Gardens in New York notes. It wasn't called ATP finals wasn't ATP back then. But Brad Gilbert and I was seven worse eight nine in the world. We went down there to join whoever did better would get to the good would get into the finals. And that was a big goal. For me. That was about the last thing and I wanted to win the Australian Open I felt that was coming. But Davis Cup, yes. Wimbledon? Yes, Australian Open was probably the next thing and getting into ATP Finals was on that list. And we went down there. And we had an amazing time down in Johannesburg, but it was politically charged. Everywhere else wasn't the only you know, and that was another thing did I regret doing that? Do I not regret doing that but it was an amazing experience. And that was the only time in my career that I actually was in the complete zone for more than you know a small period of time. And I had to play Brad Gilbert in the final as it turned out whoever won that match was in the was in the it was in the ATP finals. And I won the first set and then I lost the next two sets was the best of five set match in those days. And I honestly don't remember anything and I wish I could get a recording of this match because I want to see I don't remember anything until an applause a bit bigger a big roar of applause. And I snapped out out of this like it was like a dream I snapped out of it. And I sort of looked at the school board and give it one a game. But I won 11 in a row. So on six love five love and I don't know who the wrongs Cheers. I was like, Whoa, I was like shit. Look at the score. I don't remember anything. I was in a complete zone. So it was it was it was quite quite an interesting experience in those years. It wasn't. Yeah, it was, it was a tough grind. It was the first class seats weren't even as good as the business class seats and these days you know, it's I was pockets and I went traveling around the world it was it was a lot of fun. Was was was tough though. It was was a tough grind.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:19

And if tomorrow, or this week, it's your it's your retirement party from from the tennis industry. What would you like to hear people say about you?

Pat Cash  1:10:32

I was a nice guy that will do that. I was honest, truthful, honest, nice guy. And I think I had been I'd always been, but I think I think in general I am. You know, I fight for you know, I'm passionate. So I have lots of charities and things that I that I work I work with and work towards. And I think you know, I haven't on any human I'm not perfect, but but I think I'm generally a bloody nice guy. And yeah, I think that's good enough. And a good athlete, I suppose. I don't know a bit. I kind of know that. But not anymore. It's me walking around. I'm going to the gym. Now. I'm literally gonna spend two hours in the gym rolling and stretching just to get my body moving.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:24

I have a I have a couple of light hearted things. And then a very quick, quick fire round Pat, because you've been a star you've been honestly for. It's such a privilege and an honor for me to speak to you, Matt. And we have crossed paths a couple of times. You might not have remembered but a couple of years ago actually in Marbella I saw you at the breakfast table at Puente Romano you were playing, you are playing a match. But I saw I had the privilege of spending a little bit of time then. And also I'm sure a fisherman be one time with with Barker's you know but all the all the stories I've heard and obviously followed you as a tennis fan as well, you know. So it's it's amazing to speak to you. But I I have to get some some truths. You read a lot on the internet. And it's like, Is this is this true? And the starting point is that I read somewhere that early on in your career, there was a Hungarian princess? Who, who offered you a gift of $1 million. But apparently you didn't accept the money. So did what is this true? And did you ever find out if this was real? Or a scam?

Pat Cash  1:12:33

Where did you get that story? That is actually yeah, Barker's must have told you that. This was the weirdest thing. Yeah. Yes. No, I didn't get the money. I didn't know who it was. Allegedly, it was some lady who I didn't want to be indebted to some lady. I didn't know who it was. Who loved me and wanted to give me a million dollars. Allegedly, we heard a rumor that something happened with Jimmy Connors similar. And I talked to him said, Yes, she did to me as well. But I didn't find my, you know, a million dollars a lot back in those days to give to somebody and I didn't know what, you know, it just just didn't smell right. And I got one of my management group to see if she was real to go over and say hello to her. And she wrote a letter back and say How dare you send your management people over to see if I was real. Of course I'm real. And then there's no there's no such thing as a Hungarian princess. But I didn't know they were just not a rat. And God knows what. Yeah, so it was. I don't know if she's a princess. I don't know. I don't know. But

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:42

you are listening in Hungary. Me and Pat will happily go halfies now.

Pat Cash  1:13:49

I think she's probably going to take hold and donate some money to something but I couldn't. I don't know. There's just so many question marks for that one.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:00

The famous headband. The famous now that was actually what probably drew me into you. Maybe maybe some of the women out there who fancied you Pat but Well, that wasn't what drew me to you. It was the as a Newcastle United fan, the black and white headband was the was the big thing though. I've always thought it must be because he supports Newcastle United. But after a little bit of research, you need to tell me if this is true. That this was a tribute to Rick Nielsen, a guitarist. So tell us tell us so is this true? Tell us tell us about that.

Pat Cash  1:14:38

Yeah, Rick Nielsen was a guitarist for Cheap Trick my favorite band growing up. There's still one of my favorite bands awesome band. And, and yeah, he always had black and white checkers and on his guitar strap and he clothes and stuff back in those days and I just thought was really cool. I just, I just like, I wanted to have a bandana there was no bandanas back in those days it was just so there's headbands and got a headband from originally from a fan UK and British fans who she gave me a just a white telling bandana and I thought well that's pretty cool so started getting some of those tried to be made and then but I want to put a patent on it was not not easy my mum literally refused to do it I said she was I said Mum, can you somehow find out how you can do it? I should be okay because I print on towels. But for some reason it was really difficult. I don't know. So she has that stupid idea. That's a stupid idea. So it really took her until till about 1987 before I think I first got the headband 84 By 87 By the time we actually got some checkered headbands actually made so yeah, it came at the right time I suppose

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:51

that was I'm sure it wasn't for PR reasons but it was a it was a good PR move those those headbands as well.

Pat Cash  1:15:59

As it turned out Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna did it for fun really? Because bit boring in those days.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:05

The next one I have to ask you are you still in the WhatsApp group with Peter crouch about team bonding?

Pat Cash  1:16:13

Oh no, not anymore. Actually. That's a good yeah, that was on Yeah, it was with crouchie for a while he's

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:19

He mentioned it on his podcast

Pat Cash  1:16:24

Yeah no, he's a terrific guy. I haven't seen him for quite a while he's one of the worst things about traveling and stuff that's happened over the last few years you kind of lose track with with old friends but we we hung out a little bit from time to time and but now I don't know what's happened that jet that jet group that's good good good. Good question actually.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:47

And last one we follow a quick fire Rafa Nadal age 14 Majorca Hmm, what actually happened and how good was he this year?

Pat Cash  1:17:00

Well I was retired, I suppose a few years leaves before there's a legends event on in Majorca. And I'm supposed to play Boris, Boris Becker. And it was over Easter time. Something happened to Boris as it always does, and he decided to jump on the plane and go home playing his match and that was sort of a of a player to do a match with and they said well I've got the young junior guys he's almost 15 But he's still 14 He's a world champion. You know, do you mind playing playing against him? And I was like whatever yeah show must go on. We're standing we're starting to get the legend circuit going. I was a little concerned because it definitely takes me a few weeks to get to get the hang of get used to the clay and that I hadn't certainly played the practice much on it. And this kid came out it was pretty decent size and pretty strong. I was okay. And that was Rafa and must the amusement of the crowd. Rafa beat me in the first set, I don't know six three or six for just running, chasing shuts down all over the place. Played exactly the way he did, obviously not as strong. And as he does now, of course, but is playing exactly the same way. And I think if you look back at some of these junior matches, they put me on YouTube, you can see he still plays the same sort of tactics. Yeah, so the crowd I just thought was hilarious. I thought I'd go I'm not gonna get beaten by 14 year old. And so I said, Okay, that's it. Alright, so get in soon pretty Shitty circumstances get in cheap charge. And I want the second set easy 6-1 or something like that. And then came to tie breaker. And then I thought, Oh, God, important time, right? Anything can happen. Played a couple of bad points. And he started he played a couple of unbelievable shots running into the side fans and chasing shots all over the place. And, and he won the tiebreaker. And I thought Jesus the kid's good because I thought that kid would every any kid would choke in that. Absolutely. But he didn't. And I remember walking that the, you know, he played he played, he played well, I was, you know, I gotta say, I was a little bit embarrassed by the whole thing. But you know, it was it was fine. It was wasn't a problem. It wasn't a match. We had a laugh at the crowd and I was trying to drop trick shots that generally didn't come off. And, but you know, it was legitimate. At the end, I was like, I gotta win this match at least and went back in the locker room. And the guys just looked at me and they shook their head. They said, You just lost your 14 year old. And I said I was dripping with sweat. I said, this kid's really good. Oh my god, your 14 year old. He's He's always 15 though. He's always 15 Now just looking at me going we're supposed to be serious guys. You know we're building up this world this that circuit. This guy's kids really good.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:53

With every Grand Slam that's been

Pat Cash  1:19:57

Won 14 grand slams. Ha ha He was good on clay when he was fourteen. Like Kodos ever seen and I was like, this kid's really good. So I was I was embarrassed for a few years but after 14 Roland Garros was so embarrassed.

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:14

It's almost it almost becomes a privilege at this point, doesn't it?

Pat Cash  1:20:18

Exactly I did play

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:22

Quick fire round this can be as quick or as long as you want but it is quick for a reason. All right, well, good quick. Your two toughest ever opponents. Oh,

Pat Cash  1:20:34

anybody towards the end of my career? Andre Medvedev absolutely annihilated me one time I thought I was playing pretty well. Probably in the peak of my career. McEnroe and Becker,

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:49

Rafa or Roger.

Pat Cash  1:20:53

Both superstars wouldn't separate them.

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:57

Your favorite Grand Slam?

Pat Cash  1:21:00

Wimbledon to watch I think facilities is Australian Open, last last one by a long way is the French Open.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:08

Should we have line judges or not.

Pat Cash  1:21:11

Not, though with that in mind. I think it's not a bad thing.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:15

Five sets or three in Grand Slam matches

Pat Cash  1:21:18

Five, Five, Five, Five, Five, Five and Five.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:21

If you could switch places with one professional athlete for the day, who would it be?

Pat Cash  1:21:27

Usain Bolt? Because I was a sprinter as a kid. I love sprinting I was actually pretty quick. Like I'm quick but I've 100 meters is it seems a long way these days.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:37

The he's got the cool factor as well same as you

Pat Cash  1:21:41

Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:45

Doubles the ATP are looking into it this year. You know there's a big, there's a big, big kind of review of what's going on Reilly Opelka has recently come out and said scrap it. We don't need it in the sport. What are your thoughts?

Pat Cash  1:22:00

Absolutely need doubles. We're missing we're going the wrong way. We actually need more team events more mixed doubles more than doubles. Because that's what people play. We need that in the clubs. We need integration we need community. Many people have you had fun in the tennis clubs, and the kids to play they play mixed doubles. Seven makes the play so that doubles the set of singles whatever it happens to be. We cannot absolutely not scrap doubles. It's a great sport. It's much more entertaining than frickin singles matches that we see in the first few few rounds of Grand Slams. It is great. People just gotta get out there and watch it is it's awesome. I go I go first round the Wimbledon doubles. I go and watch this. I say go watch that that was done with some of these other matches. It's the Senate code siren through 45 minutes, go watch the doubles. It's great.

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:47

As a current coach on the ATP doubles tour I love that answer, Pat.

Pat Cash  1:22:52

That is completely different skill. It's a different skill these days. I mean, he again, the the quality that doubles players is absolutely fantastic. Absolutely. You're gonna hit a ball, same serve 140 mile an hour or 220 kilometers an hour come in, you're gonna hit it and we're in a section about four foot wide, otherwise, that guy's gonna get it. I mean, tell me that's not skill. Let's let's celebrate that for one.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:16

The best. Just a very, very quick side note on it. We did it. We did an actual podcast an episode on this. And we I got a few people on the panel. And one of the panelists said something which I loved. They said, You take the sport of cricket right now. It's been split into you've got you've got your 20-20 you've got your one day you've got your test match. And an all of them are selling out stadiums. However, we don't look down at the 2020 players as be it's just a different skill set. And within the sport, you can have different skill sets, and different people excelling in different various forms of the game where but if it's marketed well, if we get people knowing who they are who then people will go and watch and they will be entertained and somebody might want to be entertained with a test match over five days. That's it, that's a different thing. few beers, you know, it's a bit more chilled. But some people want the excitement of a 20-20 cricket match. Very similar with with singles and doubles as well and it but ultimately it comes down to whether the ATP want to be bothered if it's part of their bigger strategic plan, whether they want to market it, but it's, it's great to have you behind that.

Pat Cash  1:24:26

The ATP tour Association of Tennis professionals tour, we have to support this the professionals that are on the tour. And some of them are doubles players. A lot of them are doubles players. Let's see if we get an income for them. You know, and the WTA plays and yeah, I'm sure the tournament directors who have way more too much power in my opinion on the board's way too much. They of course they're screaming and yelling why me and all this money we're giving his money to the doubles players. They never sell a damn ticket. Okay, go go and promote something else. If you don't like it, or make something else go to local junior football fair or something like that, you know, this is a professional tennis tour. And, and, you know, I think the ATP and WTA are losing their, their way in some of these things. You know, we need a player's union, there's no doubt always has been and when we separated and that was one of the players who got asked to separate because it was the the ATL was one of the big players when ATP decided to move away and start their own tour. And we said, Yeah, we need our own voice. Voice has been lost with by tournament directors, let me not say lost completely. But it certainly can be overshadowed by tournament directors who obviously need to make a living. But their promoters, they promote a tour, they load different than rock bands who promote a tour. And, and you know, Van Halen, or Rolling Stones or whatever. And you say, Well, okay, we're playing Wembley, today, we're playing, we're playing in Paris, something somewhere else the next day, and we are local promoters who put it on. And this is what we want. This is what we have. This was our product, and this is what we want. And that's what the ATP need to do instead of guys going to promote it. Oh, what do you think we should do? Oh, and they are? Well, I think you should do all these days, we'll take a deduction of money. And I think we don't need to have all these things. And we don't need any the road crew. That's basically what they're saying. They're coming cap in hand, to the promoters. They are promoters and not tournament directors. They're tournament promoters. And they're no different than rock promoters. And ATP need to grow some communities. And we need to have we need to have a player's union and Novak's 100%, right. And all the old guys 100% behind him, and they need to have their own voice. And and therefore and then play doubles need to be put their hand up and go, Yeah, we need a player's union. They're the ones we're fighting for. We haven't put

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:50

So as slightly off the quickfire. But I do often ask him the quickfire. ptpa or not. The PTPA conceptually seems like a great idea. You know, we don't want monopolized for the ATP WTA to monopolize What the what they're doing? How does it go from where it is now to actually been something of substance,

Pat Cash  1:27:14

I think it's going to probably move in that right direction. But you know, it's they need to get that the players need to vote and they hire the players union really high as the ATP has a tool but that ATP is a tour operator, they own the ranking system, I don't know whatever the whatever it happens to be, but they run the tool and they do a great job in running it too. And that's unless you stick by it. That's what they should do, too. And they do a fantastic job WTA do a fantastic job and the union has to be separate and they come to the union to get to see what the players get that the players get it at the moment it's all joined together and it's it's it's it's like Big Pharma and then the government or at all way too joined

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:58

we need we need another episode to dig into that further. Underarm serve or not

Pat Cash  1:28:05

Yeah, why not? Why not? It's a part of a serve I've never heard of a player go oh my god you served underarm I want to complain about that. It's an underarm serve. It's I mean I mean I love the Federer thing that he used to come forward and take you know was half volley he's live I mean that's kind of like John McEnroe DNA all day or like a brilliant tactical like Yeah, great. Oh, no, it's not right. He got a hard time. It's even McEnroe said. I don't think that sportsmen like said John, you have a look at some of your old videos. You have literally six feet inside the baseline hitting returns it's almost the same as where Roger was. What do you mean not sportsmanlike like oh, that was a brilliant idea better it was brilliant at that yeah, underarm sir is as unfair it's an underarm servant. Sorry, can you just serve those all it's a slower slowest?

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:56

Yeah, but but tactically it's also to counter your natural Medvedev that standing where is it fair that they stand on the back fence? You could you could counter that argument with that so I like that. I like that it's tactically been done to counter someone else's tactic you know not problem solving. Right. This year's winner in Roland Garros. 2023 men and women just give us one name one one man one woman

Pat Cash  1:29:26

I honestly don't know. Alcaraz and Swiatek

Daniel Kiernan  1:29:39

The one one rule change that you would make in tennis.

Pat Cash  1:29:43

Or give me a give me so give me more than one. Let's let's under serve, get rid of that. That'd be number two behind throwing the ball toss up and catching the ball toss. When is it when is the stopcock? When is a service commenced. Surely when the ball's left your hand. When does it stop clock Stop, stop when your servers motion is actually in action. So why can you throw the ball up and then just stop and catch it and do it again? No, it's a fault. Since the ball leaves your hand, it's a fault. It's a serve. That's so, so ridiculous. It's hard to believe in the plate. Oh, we're going to speed up by this. Don't shake. Don't talk at the net. We got to speed up the game. What do you do? Well, you can throw the ball up five times in a row if you want that and the let on the serve. Get rid of that there. But I think it's it play like the rest of the game. And if yes, oh, what if It's match point, the guy hits the lead well of the ball itself on the left match point, the guy he's got to tear like, man, the person is going to tell a man to try and get that. It's like a forehand hitting them that match point and dribbling over. It's made the excitement of it all.

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:49

You've been a star the very final question, which we asked on this podcast. Before you answer it. You've got to read the little small print because I'm handing the baton over to you to help bring this next person to the podcast. Who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables?

Pat Cash  1:31:09

Oh, well, depends on where you want to go with this. I'll tell you who people shouldn't be listening to more is a guy called Dave Miley. I think you might know Dave, who is heavily involved in tennis he tried to become president of the IETF. And he knows more about the game of tennis and the grassroots of tennis than anybody I've ever met. He is He is brilliant. You want to know how to fix tennis. Give him a call. Yeah. Dave my Irishman as well. He'll drink a few beers with you.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:41

This is episode 188. Dave Miley was episode 186.

Pat Cash  1:31:45

No, it was great. Okay, so I'm gonna come up with somebody else. No, I leave it with me. I don't know. I don't know how that's great. You've got Dave on. He's brilliant. I don't know. You'll have to leave it with me. You've stumped me now.

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:00

We'll leave it with you. But you need to message me. So for a bit of accountability, I think we need to put it out there. So message me when you think of someone and we'll we'll put it out there. Back top man loved it. Brilliant absolute. And I know that everyone listening will take so much from that as well. So thank you for your time. You're a good man. And and I'll be I'll be in touch. Thanks, buddy.  Well, that was pretty cool. And welcome back champ.

Victoria Kiernan  1:32:29

I thank you. I'm still in a bit of shock about that. Actually, as you said at the start a big thank you to to you if you voted for us for Best Tennis Podcast, we did not expect to win it a second year in the row. And it was a really tough, tough group this year. Lots of amazing tennis podcasts, which made it even more exciting. So thank you,

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:48

Is it right that we should say well done to them as well as that, that the cheesy thing you do? Do we have to mean that with our whole heart or you know, but what's the other podcast? Yeah, no, honestly, on a serious note, those that were part of it a big well done, you know, we know what it takes to, to produce these, you know, and I think working on pretty much zero budget, it does take a lot of time, a lot of love, a lot of care and attention. So a big shout out and I know podcast that was in second place. Calvin Betten, who's a good friend of ours here at the podcast. I know he reached out to me and sent me a nice message. So a big shout out to Tennis Unfiltered. You guys. You guys are doing a great job. So well done to you guys as well and everybody else that was a part of that.

Victoria Kiernan  1:33:35

The one thing though about about winning these things as you feel I feel like we've got a bit of pressure. Now we've got a bit of pressure to deliver and to be the best tennis podcast. But I think today, we've done a pretty cool job with our guest. But before we unpack his episode, did he get back to you about who we should have on next?

Daniel Kiernan  1:33:53

Well, I chased him and he didn't volunteer and get back immediately as good as you've been Pat I have to throw you under the bus a little bit there. And I actually got back and I was a bit cheeky. I said, come on. John McEnroe. Have you got Have you got Johnny Mac, and he's replied, saying Peter Fleming is his pick now. Awesome. It's a brilliant pick. And he's also one step closer to John McEnroe, because he was John McEnroe's doubles partner for all of those years so so Peter Fleming, we are coming for you, you know, watch, watch this space. And he's also one of my former coaches not didn't coach didn't coach me for long but when I used to train down at Queens club, he I spent quite a bit of time with him and Peter's fascinating, you know, got some amazing stories. Lived a real tennis life is a very interesting guy. So we'll be looking forward to getting Peter Fleming on the show soon. And what was really cool for me there I know we talked about it for a while, but I have to mention it again. Vicki, our first Wimbledon men's singles champion, you know on There's not many of them you know the last few years and if you you basically take Pete Sampras's Seven out you take Novak Djokovic's seven out and you take Roger Federer's eight out you know there really hasn't been that many men's Wimbledon champions over the last 30-40 years. So it was it was a real privilege and, and I even remember actually I was I was thinking about it as I was talking to Pat, it's funny you have these quite distinct memories. And I remember freezing. And that's ridiculous when it was in July eating. It was really windy hill we want a family doubt but not just a family day out, I guess it was like a community day out. And we went to Holy Island, right up in the Northumberland coast and I was eating my pack of crisps and maybe my egg sandwich I have a quite a vivid memory of it. And we were listening to it. And as they were saying Pat Cash and he wins and, and then they were describing it as they did so amazingly well I do so amazingly well on the radio. And then he walked up to his team, he was the first person to do that. It was such a big moment. And he was hugging everyone and he hugged his coach, who at the time was this what look like quite an old man sorry, Barker's with gray hair, gray mustache. And it was like that guy went on to be my coach. And you know, as still a massive, massive part of my tennis life and life life in general. And he looks exactly the same. Anyone that sees Ian Barclay now and then looks at a picture of him in 1987 It is literally the same person the same man. And I have to shout out Barkers as well. So it was probably one of my first vivid memories and, and I know Vicki, you've also having a pat on it's a story I've heard so many times from yourself, rightly so because it's such a great story. But Pat's also been a big influence on your career and your life

Victoria Kiernan  1:36:58

Yeah it's so weird, although the chat that you've just had with him is significantly better than the one I did. When I was younger. Pat came to Birmingham for that, I think was the Pepsi Challenge in 1991 an indoor men's event and the local radio station Radio W BBC Radio WM must have thought okay, well, it'll be really cool to have a young aspiring tennis player, you know, interview, change it up a little bit. And so yeah, they got in contact with my club Edgebaston Priory and for some reason, they put me forward for it. But I literally was so shy. And even more so walking into the room and meeting Pat. I was so starstruck, I couldn't speak. He must have been like, what what is going on? And I didn't listen back to it because I think I don't think I listen to a word he said I just looking in his eyes made me so uncomfortable. And I asked probably the

Daniel Kiernan  1:37:54

did he have his headband on?

Victoria Kiernan  1:37:56

You know what the headband killed me because I thought just get through the interview because I would totally see if I can ask him for a headband. bottled it didn't literally didn't even ask him. But the woman from BBC Radio WM who I was with asked him for me. And he said, Oh, I'm so sorry. I've given them all out to all the ballkids. So I didn't get the checkered headband. Because that was the big thing. Wasn't it back then. So I didn't get one did a terrible interview and didn't get headband. But I went home. And I was like, That is such a cool job. Can you imagine having that for a job interviewing sports stars. And it was that I think it was about 12. It was that that set me on the path of journalism. And so I've always said, If I ever meet him again, I have to say that terrible interview I did with you. When I was 12 spurred me on to go into journalism and radio. And we got the chance to tell him didn't we a few years ago, which was amazing. I'm sure he wasn't that interested. But it was so lovely going. Thank you so much.

Daniel Kiernan  1:38:54

Yeah, you say he's not interested. But I think I think one thing I really took from talking to him, you know, there was this young, good looking rock and roll star character that won Wimbledon relatively young age, you know, and that's a couple of points for me here. I think it's so interesting. We think that Wimbledon, we always set these goals. And it's always like, that's the top of the mountain. And that that's it. And almost like that happens, and the whole world changes and know that we have no problems anymore. We talked a lot about this over the last few months on the shore. Whereas life really is that continuum. it just continues you know, and Pat said that himself like five minutes after the Wimbledon final, everyone's moved on or their stadiums emptied. Everyone's rushing for trains. Everyone's thinking about who can get a coffee or how many sugars could grab a coffee or we live in this world where we consume things so, so fast, and for me that was really fascinating to see. Fast forward, how many years it is is 35-36 years he's almost been humbled by life. And, and probably at the time didn't appreciate that 11-12 year old who was, was speaking to him and interviewing him.

Victoria Kiernan  1:40:16

He was very, very sweet with me. Okay, yes.

Daniel Kiernan  1:40:19

And that's looked at. And again, it's not I'm not saying Pat Cash, I was lucky to meet him with Ian Barclay was always a great guy. But you always can live up to that persona, you know, of being this Wimbledon champion, this rock and roll star. And then that is, in some ways lead to mental health problems and depressions and, you know, feeling like you can never live up to that. And then when results go, you start to have these self self esteem issues. And, you know, throughout throughout his life, I'm sure he's had a lot lot of time to reflect and it was just for me, it was so lovely to see this superstar, who, who is now at a time in his life, where he's reflecting, and, you know, asking how he wants people to remember him, just to be a nice guy. You know, that was, that was something and he was quite emotional saying it, you know, and what, what is important, I think does change naturally as we get a little bit older. And, you know, I'm sure hearing stories that he's impacted people's lives and your career, you went on and got your Master's degree in broadcast journalism and, and had a fantastic broadcast journalism career. And now you're doing this and bringing this skill, this skill back to life. And that's, that's where I think the true joy is in, in what these stars are able to achieve in their life. But maybe it just takes a little bit of time for them to truly understand that. And that's probably right with life in general, I would imagine,

1:41:46

I would say he still has that superstar aura about him. I mean, when we saw him in, It was 2021, wasn't it? We were up the road in Marbella, at a hotel and there'd been an IC match the night before with Great Britain and he was playing because the rest of the world can't remember who the teams were now. And we were at breakfast, the morning after our meal and I was sat there, you're at the breakfast bar, getting your bacon, and he just casually walked past my table. And honestly,

Daniel Kiernan  1:42:16

Fruit platter.

1:42:19

I went back to that 12 year old full on went back jaw dropped. Oh my gosh, Pat Cash has just walked past my breakfast table. And I obviously stared at him for the next few minutes getting all of his breakfast and trying to think, Am I able now as an adult grown woman to actually go over and say thank you ever so much. Turns out I wasn't totally choked again. And it was you I can't you came back and I said, Oh my gosh, Pat Cash is at breakfast. And you were like, Let's just just go and speak to him. I can't go and disturb his breakfast. And you just got up and walked over and sat down at his table. I was like, Oh God,

Daniel Kiernan  1:42:56

It's like, it's like, take that isn't the Beatles. It is that's I think how big those those guys were at the time. There's a real aura about him. I remember the same Boris Becker, you know, these these players. And maybe because we couldn't consume them as much, because social media wasn't around. So it was like, now social media is around, it's almost normalized, you know, you see Alcaraz in person he like, I've just saw Alcaraz yesterday on YouTube and Instagram and Snapchat and Tiktok. And, you know, we they're in our faces a little bit more now. Whereas back then, there was a bit more of the untouchables, I think, you know, and there was in that era, there was a bit of a kind of rock and roll band boy band feel to it. So no a real a real treat for us to have have him on the podcast. And the one thing that the last thing I'd like to mention, because as we go through this, Control the Controllables, we're approaching 200 episodes, there is a lot of key messaging that's coming out and I think key learnings and when we can normalize certain situations that the untouchable people also go through, you know, human, it's all human emotions. At the end of the day. It's human human feelings. And when I asked him his greatest memory, and I granted I took out the 87 Wimbledon, Wimbledon title. And I genuinely had written down Super Saturday in 1984. It it was amazing. I thought that he went to that as his favorite memory, because he lost the match. Yeah. And it goes into this. It plays into this belief that I've got this. It's about experiences and it's about memories. And at the time, we think it's just about the winning and losing, but it's really not. It's about putting yourself in these situations. Asians are taking these opportunities to have just these incredible memories and, and what a day that sounded like, you know, when I was looking into and I was I remember that. I did remember watching that it was 1984. But oh my goodness, imagine having that ticket those matches and you know how how incredible it was. And I thought that was really, really interesting. And the second point on that Vicki, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this was also how much tennis they just played. That is unbelievable. And they played the five sets and then they played the doubles, and then they and and actually, maybe we are capable of a little bit more than we think I can't help thinking we're a little bit protected in this day and age.

1:45:41

Well, like you said, though, that I think there's probably more sensible decisions made on bodies. Now he mentioned a knee, you know, him and a lot of players in his era, they do struggle now with their bodies. So there's an argument for and against on that. But what what I found really interesting was that Tennis Australia aren't using him. I mean, his passion for tennis is obviously so so obvious. And yet it's amazing that all of his experience isn't being put to use with this crop of this generation of players.

Daniel Kiernan  1:46:13

It is an interesting topic and it's not just Tennis Australia is it you can go through all the Federation's and it's hard because the bigger the organization, the more you try and control the culture to a degree. And when you start trying to control cultures and, and cultural, the structure of of how you are running and philosophies, the more you end up trying to bring in people that are bringing that same message through and living that right when, you know, there has to be a place for a Pat Cash of the world. And it's not just Pat Cash there's there's hundreds of of these players out there. But finding that almost X Factor, Maverick role within within an organization that has so many accountabilities and hoops to jump through and there's so many middle managers that have you know, they're looking after their own jobs and they want to you know, it's not really a risk taking business tennis Federation's. So, so I can I can see it from both sides, you know, but But certainly, you know, someone like Pat brings up brings a wealth of experience brings an aura brings a character that would that would would provide quality, wherever you put them. I'm absolutely sure of that.

Victoria Kiernan  1:47:34

And a very entertaining character to listen to. I've said about several of our guests on the show, but I really do believe with Pat, again, you could have talked double the length is there's so many parts of the game that he's been involved in. And the stories I imagine are endless.

Daniel Kiernan  1:47:48

And so could we we could talk endlessly, I'm sure this time, but it's you've probably had enough of us for this week. But but coming next week is the Tennis Talker, talking of talking. Anybody that is on Twitter, you will have followed I'm sure if you don't then you need to the Tennis Talker, Chris Goldsmith, he's never come out of his shell. He's been behind his keyboard for the last 15 years. He's been trolling people, he's been giving us results. He's someone that is great entertainment to follow. It's actually where I get a lot of my results from, you know, if he's if you're finding out if there's a if there's a betting issue going on or someone is fixing matches out in Tunisia, Chris has always got the finger on his pulse and I've never understood it because he also works it 10 hours a day and his other job. So you will get to know Chris next week as well. So that's a brilliant one for you to look forward to. But until then, I hope you enjoyed today. And until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables