Patricia Hy: A Journey to Resilience

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 205 of Control the Controllables. And I apologise for those who are regular listeners, that we haven't been with you for the last three or four weeks. And I will get to that in a minute. But a big welcome to our new listeners, to anyone that's just come across Control the Controllables podcast. We love having you with us. We hope you enjoy your first episode. And then you got another 204 to make your way through and I promise they will have you in tears, they'll have you laughing, they will have you running around looking for that notepad to scribble down the pieces of information and the gems that are being told. And as for the last three or four weeks, I did take my equipment with me. I've been in the WTA finals in Cancun, and then come back and unfortunately, my mum is not doing so well. So I flew back to England as well, to see her and the family and Cancun. Let's start there, because it was talked about everywhere, the WTA Finals 2023 Now, I'm a person who has chosen to live life with gratitude. So I find it really hard to speak too negatively, especially with everything that is going on in the world right now. I find it hard to think that it's a bad thing and a difficult experience to be sitting on a beach eating lobster tacos, and maybe waiting out a rain break before the girls Gabby Dabrowski and Aaron Routledge who had a fantastic end to the year. And then Gabby's gone on, and also helped Canada win the Billie Jean King Cup. So on a personal level, it's been very exciting. But as for my, I guess, couple of serious points on the WTA. I don't think they'll ever play it again. Outside at that time of year, you know, that was challenging for the players. Was the court as bad as everyone says, No, I don't think it was. But it's not perfect for what it should be when we look at the ATP finals in Turin. So until they get a multi year deal, for the WTA in a place where they can really make it the special event that it is that I think they will continue to have challenges. But I'm certainly very grateful for the tournament and all of the hard working people of Mexico and Cancun that put on a great event. Now that moves us into today's guest, Patricia Hy now Patricia was a top 30 singles player, she was somebody who has an incredible story. You know when we talk about resilience, when we talk about challenges to overcome, there's almost no bigger challenges that she did and I would fully recommend wherever you are you sit back and you enjoy this because at times your mouth will be open and astonishment. And it how Patricia has used that to have success on the court and now off court as a coach, as a mental coach. And also as a parent is a truly astounding story and I'm so happy to be sharing this with you. Let me pass you over to Patricia Hy Patricia Hy a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Patricia Hy  03:34

Ah good. making amends just as I was you know we just got back at three in the morning. So my daughter lost in the semis yesterday. She was unfortunate was second match on after 12 o'clock I was praying for the first leg so if she was out then we could get on the road but this is such so she was done of whatever time it is okay let's go shower up and we'll get to get on the road and look forward to 10 hours drive back home.

Daniel Kiernan  04:00

And this is your daughter who is in her 20s

Patricia Hy  04:04

Yes 23 As she just graduated from The Ohio State University she was on the on the team there. She graduated in May and is now making the tour a full time job.

Daniel Kiernan  04:17

Amazing. So tennis, tennis parents out there. These long drives and these long days at tennis centres around the world don't stop after the junior years you know you've still you've got a strap in, strap in for the ridr. It

Patricia Hy  04:34

strap in for the ride and you know what it is 10 hours yesterday we could have taken a flight but I also have a son who plays so you have to take about that. Think about budgeting you know it would be luxury to fly but driving saves a lot of money for us

Daniel Kiernan  04:50

And a lot of quality mother daughter time I'm sure.

Patricia Hy  04:53

I tell you what the that is the time because it's relaxing in the car. I used to dread long distance driving because I can't wait to you know, to get there. But but then since pandemic hits, I find that the only time I can slow down are at two places. One is long distance driving, the other one, believe it or no, it's at the doctor's office. Those are the two places where I could actually slow down enough and reflect on things and and also it helps that my daughter can drive now to share the driving as

Daniel Kiernan  05:28

well. I have to mine. I'm with you long drives I like and the other one for me is the hairdresser's. You know, when I get to sit in, I get to sit in that seat at all. I don't have very long hair. So it doesn't take long. But that 15, 20 minutes. I don't remember the last time that I didn't fall asleep when I was having my hair cut, which maybe says something about about my life that I need a little bit more.

Patricia Hy  05:56

What a brave man to fall asleep, getting your hair done. And I'm sure there's some men out there who's totally jealous of you at least you have hair.

Daniel Kiernan  06:04

Absolutely, and Patricia the way that we go at Control the Controllables it's, I always like to jump into people the stories their life, because ultimately, that's what shapes us, you know, and we get into starting tennis and I want to jump into that as well. But something the more that I've looked into your life as long as as long as the internet is accurate, which it might not always be the under my understanding is you started in quite a dramatic fashion age six as you had to had to flee from Cambodia, where you were where you were born, the Vietnam war that started and you had a big journey that you had to make. And eventually you ended up in Hong Kong. So I guess a double a double sided question, if you don't mind me asking is one, what do you remember of that time? And two, how was that shaped or played a role in shaping the mentality that took you to be a singles high of 28 in the world, it's taking you to being a coach, it's taken you to be in a mental coach, a tennis parent, all of the all of the things that you've had in your life.

Patricia Hy  07:24

Now that's actually quite accurate, what you just said about Cambodia. So interesting story. My dad was my coach, by the way. He played a Davis Cup for Hong Kong, and Davis Cup for Cambodia before we left Cambodia. So his brother at the time worked for was a right hand man of Sihanouk, that's the king of Cambodia. And there was, you know, unsettling coming into the country and, and he told my dad, you know, it's time to take your family out of there, because it's going to be unsafe. So they, my dad took the team who was a captain of the Davis Cup, and I forgot where they were playing outside of Cambodia. So he told them that after the event was done, he was going to meet up with my mum in Hong Kong for a vacation. And nobody knew what he was doing except him on my mum because that was his last time in Cambodia. So he couldn't even say goodbye to his family because they would have known. So he left with a suitcase and not very much money. So he went to after it was done. He went to Hong Kong, and my mum then went to Hong Kong to meet up with him just to plan out where to live and get sponsor, they have to get their sponsors to be able to live in Hong Kong legally. So once they found everything or the what they needed. My mom flew back to Cambodia to take me out and I was six. I was exactly six years old, have a sister as well, who was three years younger than me. So at the time, because I was young, I travelled with my mum, that's how it was at the time. I didn't have my own passport. So I was on my mom's passport. And you needed an exit visa to every country you go to. So they didn't see my dad for a long time. When you're in Cambodia in in the sports people keep track of you. So they were suspicious of my dad labelled him as a spy. So they detained Yeah, they kept my mom's passport for a few months. They refused to give her a visa. My mum pursued six months later, they still would not giving it to her. So my grandmother went to the black market and got her a fake passport. And the cat that a fake passport that she was Thai. Because the Yeah, the routing of course I didn't know all of this until later. The routing was that My mom was to take me to the border. Cambodia slash you know Thai border, meet up with the men who gave us the black passport that to be her fake husband. And then to take us across the Thai border to fly get on a flight to Hong Kong. And it was supposed to be a no brainer. However, when we got on the bus in Cambodia, we were stopped in a village and we had to go on foot and stayed in some ricefield village to these strangers we didn't know. And I remember specifically because it was traumatising. Because a child can definitely feel the parents fear. Yeah, and I definitely I actually confirmed it with my mum, because it's been a long time. It wasn't like just yesterday. And she she was pretty surprised that I was very accurate in describing the situation. So and when we were walking through the fields, which seemed like hundreds of kilometres, my mom had to carry me, right, because I was exhausted and we walked through the rice field. She knocked on some people's doors they took us in. And the next day, we had to walk back to a meeting point with the with a man. And I don't know how she knew the meeting point. So that we had to hide behind a bush so the man can walk to the border to pay off the guard to take us over. So he took us over the border. We walked on foot, went across the border. And the next day we went to the airport and he taught he taught my mom a few Thai words in case she was interrogated. So we went through immigration and she didn't pass the test. And we were detained at the police station. Because they were suspicious of the fake passport. They read it. They saw it was a fake passport. So we were detained for hours. The second traumatising event was I fell asleep on the couch while my mom was being interrogated. I woke up couldn't find my mom anyways in the police station, and I am his crying hysterically. And this police came and was yelling and the you know, stopped crying. Your mother left you and I cried even more. Right I so my mom. She must have heard me crying because she dashed through the door. So the deal was that she made a deal with the interrogator to give up the name of the person that made the fake passport. Then she was free to go. They went to the address that she knew it was empty now. But they held up the side of the bargain. They put us on the flight to go to Hong Kong. Yeah, they kept up their flight because it was address and they saw I guess he saw who was living there and so forth. So at that at that time, there was one flight from Cambodia to Hong Kong once a day. That was it. From what I learned that it took a month before we actually made it to Hong Kong because my dad literally went to the airport every night for our arrival. And we never came. And he gave up. And of course in those days we didn't have cell phones. Yeah, yeah, we didn't. There was no communications. He gave up and he definitely could not fax, there was no one to fax. So my dad gave up going to the airport. And we showed up and I to this day. So that was 40-42 years ago, 52 years ago. Right?

Daniel Kiernan  13:43

Did you find your dad?

Patricia Hy  13:45

Well my mama had the address. Because remember when they went ahead of time, they found the places to live. So she had that address. So we showed up and he was renting this one bedroom from this sweet, nice old lady. It was a two bedroom apartment. And he rented that one room. And yeah, he was he was having dinner when we showed up

Daniel Kiernan  14:06

And what's your memory of that when you showed up and how you died was when you arrived?

Patricia Hy  14:10

He was he was in? This is exactly what you see in the movie, somebody who has lost their family members for a long time and they see them again. And his jaw just dropped. He was in a meeting in the middle of putting food in his mouth. And yeah, and of course I didn't recognise I didn't know my dad, by the way, because my dad travelled so much. When I was born. When I was born, my dad was playing tournaments in Shanghai, and my nickname actually is Shanghai. My mum didn't know how to what to name me. So yeah, so I've never knew my dad growing up until I went to Hong Kong.

Daniel Kiernan  14:48

Wow. Wow. And when you're telling that story, Patricia, it hits me and we'll get to this later in the conversation because you have a See, you're a mental coach. Now, you know, you're working on the performance side of the sport, and I know. But psychology is such a big part of life now, you know, and I guess it's come to the forefront a little bit more. Whereas back in those days, it wasn't, it wasn't quite as is out there, you know, it was a little bit of kind of suck it up and deal with its type type of scenario. As you're telling that story. You're telling it in such a matter of fact, where at what point did you have you been able to almost compartmentalise accept? Have you worked on that? Is that work that you've gone through through your life? Or is that purely just time? And that's what it is. And this is how life has gone. And now I can almost look back at it in that sort of way, in almost a separated way.

Patricia Hy  16:00

It's really interesting that with your question, because when I was on tour, they did an article on me, and they called me a survivor. Right. And we knew that situations shaped us one way or another, right. And even at six and a half years old, as I said before you feel your, your parents fear or whoever your caretaker is, right. And the fact that my mother was so brave. She was she had oh, by the way, she had to leave my sister behind. Because she knew she was anticipating the rough, you know, I'm saying matter of fact, like you said, we went on foot from miles and hours and hours, and it was raining, and we had to go in the bus, you know, full of strangers and live in a stranger's house. And she knew the road, the journey was going to be treacherous. And I could feel her while she was scared. But she was also dealing with a situation it was a life and death situation, right? And it made an impression in your mind in your brain. And you remember things like that. And with what I do now, and I mentioned to parents all the time, especially parents with young athletes, it's not what you say is what you do, because children can feel that vibration. And I believe in aura vibration of the cells so much just because of my personal experience. So to a certain degree when I was competing, I can always feel that part of me where I'm almost like feeling I'm in danger and being threatened. And then that sturdiness, that resiliency, and it must have come from that time where I felt both the fear and the resiliency and in desperation how to survive that was just instilled in me. It's just in me. I don't know if that makes sense.

Daniel Kiernan  18:06

Or not. No, no, it absolutely does. And I think the other thing that jumps into me on that is, is also what a player feels from a coach. I think you can play as obviously feel that from a parent, even more so. But at the side of the court, or even a travelling Coach, how, how they are in all aspects, the player is taking strength or not, from the coach at all times as well, without words being said, and that will be something I'm a massive believer on. And it's sometimes hard to articulate that because it can, it can sound a little bit fluffy candidate can sound as if it's, it's an intangible, it's not something you can touch. But I'm a massive believer in the impact of coach or people in porches boxes can have without necessarily been the words that they say

Patricia Hy  19:03

100% personal experience. You know, when I was I was at Wimbledon, I think was playing something. And it was so nervy and my looked over, you know, like, Oh, I didn't look over a lot to my coach. But I certainly at times when I needed that strength. And my coach was, I could feel his his nervousness and stress and definitely didn't help things. So after the match, I said to my coach, and I said, Listen, I need you to be calm for me, because I can feel you. And if you can't do that, you shouldn't be out there. You know, just don't don't watch because I need you to be calm. Now. Now that I'm a parent, and if you ask my kids, they will say I smile a lot, watching them from the side. I do that on purpose, right? I do that on purpose, but I do that on purpose. Not to fake it, but I really believe in it. Because when you're out on the court, whether you're starting out competing, or the ATP Tour or WTA, doesn't matter, competition is natural, right? It's uneasy. So I make a point of staying calm, not just because of what I do, but it is helping the players, because I know what it feels like when you get coaches stressed out. So I feel calm. And I put a smile on my face, appreciating points, because that is how I teach my kids. You know, it's really it's it, they all want to win, who goes to compete, and I'm going to lose everyone who wants to win. There's only one winner at the end of each match. So it's really irrelevant what they want. But what really the focus is, what are you going to do with this moments on the on the court? When I was playing, I played Monica Salas, in Montreal. And I don't, I never used to read articles on myself or watch myself play just because I didn't want to deal with that. I just happened to watch I had a really good match with Monica, who was right one at the time. And we went to three sets. And it's in Montreal, I was already in Canada. So it's a big deal. They the camera moved to her dad, her dad was smiling, applauding good points. And we were in the third set. Right then and there. I decided that's who I want to be like, with my kids every play. And that's, that's how I mimic to this day.

Daniel Kiernan  21:36

And there isn't such a good story. And I have to ask the question, what as a parent, what are you feeling inside? So so when you and you've got two kids, I believe are players so and have gone through a journey to be to play to a high level. So you've obviously you've got a lot of experience as a tennis parent now. It's one thing to smile and be able to bring that across. And I guess that's a skill that it doesn't come across physically as well. Because players can smell that a mile off. And then be like Don't be giving me that you know, what are you feeling inside? Are you feeling the stress and the tension? Have you managed to compartmentalise work on that to the point that actually, your sole process driven at all? It's all good.

Patricia Hy  22:33

Okay, at the forefront, I'm not going to lie, I'm gonna be very honest, is at the end of the match. They want to win, you want to win? Well, I mean, let's let's just be honest, right? And it's always going through my head, how am I gonna help him or her to get that W? Yep. All right. Okay, he's, he's tight, then I will go, what would I do when I'm tight? I'm need to relax. So I literally will transform, if you will, I will transfer myself I'm relaxed. Okay, you know, stay relaxed, brief. You can do this, you can do this. So you know that that sending the vibes back on the court? I believe in that? I do. Yeah, yeah. Or like think, you know, if they're not playing so smart. They work very hard, but they're not playing super smart, is tactical. And then I'll be like, okay, use your flies variations, you can do this variation. So I literally will do do like a mantra, you know, think through things. So I feel, and that goes the same with the players wave, I happen to watch them on stream, because when I work with plays, as well with them, and I will just send vibes over. Or when I'm going on record, this is really quite cool. You know, there'll be on the court and I'm on the court with them. I usually don't I give them space to make the errors. So let's say serve, right, the white serve, they're not quite getting it, I don't jump in right away, or get the toss up higher left, right, whatever. I would just think about it. Like, higher, reach up, use your legs, and they'll do it. I can't tell you so many times they've just corrected themselves. And

Daniel Kiernan  24:15

Do you think that's, I think a really important thing you've said there is giving someone the space to do it. as well. You know that that? It's something I don't think as coaches we do enough, I am just parents actually. And you know what one of my one of my favourite analogies that I like to use is this whole concept of, of the and we're all we're all lazy now because we've all got the satellite navigation systems. And as you head out on a complex journey, wherever you're going to use the sat nav, and then you do it the next day and the next day, but if I took the sat nav away in two weeks, you actually would not be able to find your own way there. Whereas if it if you struggle with that space and using a map and finding a way on the first day, it's now locked in you now on that you will not ability to be able to do it. And it's something I've certainly tried to then take into my coaching is, is that concept if you've got the space, I know that's slightly different to what you're saying with the energy and the vibe. But if you've got that space for them to be able to work through it themselves, then it sticks a little bit more. And it's something that they then have a lock down, that they're able to recall in the big moments, rather than the reliance of the coach or reliance of the sat nav.

Patricia Hy  25:39

Absolutely. And I, you know, I hear so many comments from coaches, where they feel like the players are soft, yep. Right these days. And I really think that players are given way, way too much information, and they can't think for themselves. In order to play smarter in order to be able to think for yourself, you need to have situations to deal with, so that you can come up with the solutions. You know, and I through my work, whether it's on the court of my kids or my work with the players. And I get actually I get really nervous, if they say everything is great, because from personal experience, when you go out there 99% of the time, is everything is going wrong. So you know, so and I was like, Okay, you have a match next week, or you have a match tomorrow, and you're feeling great. And I want to clarify this. It's not like you're you're being negative, but you cannot be naive to think that everything's good, because the opponents job is to make your life miserable. Create your problem. So you better be having a day where you are. You have to find ways you struggle, right? You struggle. It's like going in the gym. If you if you're just using the weights that you're comfortable with, you're not going to get strong. You got to use heavy weights to push you. And that's that my stuff, you know, competing comes in. It's understanding that bad days are good days for you in training.

Daniel Kiernan  27:15

Yeah, absolutely. I again, I couldn't agree more. Patricia before. Before I move on. If I was listening to this right now. You've got me. You've got me with your your first with your story. I mean, I'm locked in. But, but I would have a question. And I think anybody listening right now will have a question and is frustrated. And I hope you don't mind me asking this question. What happened to your sister?

Patricia Hy  27:47

Oh, not at all. You know what I love questions. My sister. She was stuck in Cambodia, because a week after we left, the border was closed. No one was allowed in or out of Cambodia at the time. She had to flee to Vietnam on foot with our relatives. My grandfather was a doctor. And he was he was killed. Because the the first to go are the educated people. Right? And so she left with my grandmother was under my grandmother's care at the refugees. They went to the refugee camp. She at the time was three years old. We have no knowledge whether they were alive or not, because there was absolutely no communications. So we just assumed that everyone was killed. That's how it was. I was young, I didn't I kind of knew like this award, but I'm like, why is my sister not here? My mom was distressed all the time. Rightly so right. So we lost contact for nine years. Nine years. So when? Nine years later I started playing. I was 15, 16. And I my dad took me to junior Wimbledon. And you know how crowded it is at Wimbledon. I mean, you bump into, he literally bumped into a classmate, a classmate of all people who actually was fortunate enough to leave before the whole war thing started. And he was working for Prince Prince George of of Hanover, Hanover in Germany. And Prince George love tennis, so we got to meet him at Wimbledon. He somehow struck he really liked my dad. And he said if there was and then my dad started talking about the family and so forth. And Prince George said, Well, if you ever need help, if you need help getting your daughter out of Cambodia or Vietnam, let him know. And he did. He went and got my sister out when they were 12 years old. Yeah, he did the whole Yeah, he did the All documentation thing, and the reason that we knew they were alive because when they were settled in Vietnam out of the refugees camp, they sent a fax or Telegram, to the house to the apartment that my dad was in. And that's how we knew they were alive. And you can just imagine as parents, right, where you think your child was killed, and that was unbelievable. So yeah, so she came, and we all went to greet her at the airport, thinking this 12 year old would be, you know, malnutrition, maybe emotionally scarred, just not in great shape. She, they sent us a photo of her, and we picked her up, and she was this chubby little kid. And we were like, what? So what had happened was at camp, the camp, they would pick out these cute kids and teach them to dance as entertainers. And that's how they get fed. So much. My sister was one of those lucky children got picked, was taught to entertain, with what, you know, the soldiers whatever she, to this day, I don't know how much harm was done to her. But I know she was emotionally scarred. Because she struggled with the sight of men for a very, very long time. Her herself, we got her checked out her herself was not physically harmed. But she must have seen things and she never wanted to talk about it. To this day. Yeah, but she, you know, after many, many years with with how she was able to function normally. And to my parent's credit, they, you know, they we all worked very, very hard in making her as part of the family. It took work, it took work. Definitely, it took a lot a lot of work from from my dad, they were talking that when my dad is speaking with my sister, she would look the other way, like literally look the other way. Like, don't talk to me have a think? And it was very hurtful. Of course, as a father, as you know, you're you're being a dad, is that your little child just just just pretending you don't exist. So, but she recovered, got married? has kids? Yeah. And

Daniel Kiernan  32:35

How's your relationship with her?

Patricia Hy  32:37

Um, not as much as I like it to be closer. She lives out west. And I travel all the time. And I you know, that's that's one thing that I was not able to get closer. Because I got a lot of attention through my tennis when I was living in Hong Kong at the time. And that was not my wrongdoing. I couldn't help it and try this. I might. A I could never get close. Okay. Yeah. And it's sad. And, you know, I always wanted to be closer to my siblings, you know, but we move on, we have a life to live and it's okay. She's safe, and she's healthy. And that's great.

Daniel Kiernan  33:20

And thank you so much for your honesty on that. I, you know, like I said, for me that when I heard your story, that was an important part of the story for me, you know, and it does take me into what I want to talk about next, which is, I guess, when you were first on a world terms seen as someone in the tennis world in the biggest tournament in the world that Wimbledon, I, I wasn't expecting to get that story, in terms of what happened at Wimbledon. But I think that's probably how a lot of families can relate as well, certainly myself, you know, I've got, I've got I've got brothers and sisters and, and it's quite unnatural. You know, I was the one that so much resource went into so much travel so much of the parents time, so much of this and you're put on a bit of a pedestal and, you know, all of all of those bits, and there is a lot of collateral damage that can potentially come with that. And I think it's quite often not talked about or discussed. You know, and whereas I think it does happen in a lot of families. But not just that you were going to play the biggest Junior turn or the biggest tournament in the world as a junior from a country that hadn't traditionally had success at its at such events. And again, players I've worked with from smaller countries. Some can handle it, some can't, but it definitely feels you're carrying a bigger load on this shoulders then I had the Czech Republic performance director on a few weeks ago. And it's like, well, if you're 20 in the world, who are you? You know, because? Because there's 15 people ahead of you, but being from Hong Kong or representing Hong Kong and going to Wimbledon, and then having the success that you had at Wimbledon, I believe winning the doubles event there.

Patricia Hy  35:23

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was my last year in the juniors

Daniel Kiernan  35:26

That was last year, juniors. How was that for you? You know, carrying such a, such a weight of a country and being this being this, somebody I guess it's such a young age with your tennis.

Patricia Hy  35:42

Um, I didn't feel the pressure, funnily enough, it wasn't I, I attribute that to my, the, my parents the way they brought me up. You know, it's my, my dad obviously, was very value oriented. It was about family about being humble, and working hard. So that was what he taught me is, if you want anything about working hard, my mother taught me was, you know, you put your sight to something, you can do it what you believe to be true. You're gonna get it, get it done. So that's how, and they never did put. They never put pressure on me to turn pro or anything I wanted to do with tennis. But the fact that how I came to be how my parents kept me on my feet really is. I guess I was 13. Yeah, 12 or 13 years old, then that was my first time got exposure of travelling internationally to the US or to Canada, sorry, to Canada. So the Hong Kong ta at the time, brought four players, three boys and one girl was the only girl. So you have three boys and one girl and we made this Canadian Tour. I cannot remember where it was. But I won so many trophies. They put me in sixteens and eighteens. And I was I think I was 13 at the time, I think. And I won singles, doubles, singles doubles of the entire tour. And I remembered I had to call home, if I could buy a suitcase. And my mother said, Well, why do you need a suitcase and like, well for all the trophies. So I bring the trophies home and of course, like you said, there was no athletes no tennis players at the time. So it was a big deal. So I remembered a rush and totally caught me by surprise. I we got to the airport and the media, the reporters it was full. It was I mean it was packed. And I was rushed to this room interview blah, blah, blah, whatever. Okay, think the whole thing. shebang was over. We go home the next day. Okay, so as I mentioned earlier, my dad was renting because he didn't have money. He was renting this one bedroom of this two bedrooms. Later on when he got enough money. He rented this one bedroom apartment, the whole apartment. We didn't have washer and dryer. He did not believe in washing dryer. So the next day, I had washing duty, you know, this old film with a wash board thing. Okay, so I had to do that over the tub. Okay, that was his way of grounding me. I mean, it wasn't like he couldn't afford to buy washer and dryer. It was like go wash the the hardest thing about washing these things are the towels. Do you know how heavy towels are when they're wet? So here I am washing them and I had to use put them on the liner. Right? And that's his way of grounding me. So I never felt the pressure. It was their way of saying hey, tennis is something you did is something is something you do is not who you are. So my identity never got lost. And my dad always always say remember who you are where you come from.

Daniel Kiernan  39:11

Very good. And two questions. You're getting my brain ticking a lot Patricia which I love. You know it's I'm absolutely loving this. We hear a lot in the in the tennis world. People making excuses. Yeah, so it's we love an excuse to you know, and it's, it's, it's often we hear I'm in the wrong squads. I'm not playing with good enough players. We can't do these things, not getting enough wildcards. Blah, blah, blah, not getting now you're taking your story on board. Yeah, you're training in a country where there's not a whole lot of tennis players, you know, you obviously significantly better than most of the players if not all that are around and you're not coming from a money background. So so how does your tennis go from just starting to play tennis to now being someone who was playing the biggest Junior tournaments in the world and being one of the best juniors in the world? You know, how were you able to do that? And I guess then linking that back into if you want a bad enough, you can find a way of doing it type of mentality.

Patricia Hy  40:27

I really think parents have a lot to do with it upbringing. I really do. You know, what kids are kids, you know, they they're gonna whine, they're gonna complain, they're gonna want more, whichever. But if the parents, you know, understand that everyone has their own journey, and if you can just step out of the way and let your kids do the work needs to be done, and not come to the rescue so soon, right. I'll give you a story of how it came about with my tennis in Hong Kong, it was not forced upon me, where I feel a lot of the kids are forced upon them to play. So how I started with tennis was my my dad found this public place to teach then the public place had 20 courts, you had to book one hour per person for the week in advance. So he didn't he gave up competing because he had to earn money to support his family. I got there. No surprise that soon after I got there. I had to wake up at the wee hours of the morning, we're talking 4:30am 5am to stand in line at this public place. To book a court not even for me, it was for my dad to teach. So my mom had to be there. My dad and me three hours is what he had for the week, like the following week. And we had to do that every day. I had to do that every day. That was before school, right? Guess what happens when that day rains? That's it. There's no like Oh, rebooking, you lose those courts. So that's what I was faced with. And then after school, I'll hang out with because we're a tight knit family, I hang out, I sit on the bench when my dad was coaching, and then I picked up a racket and bounced around, and that's how I was introduced to tennis. So, you know, excuses is for the weak. Right? Blaming is for the weak. Absolutely. Right. Wildcards you go, you know, I grew up. Okay, so now I met my age, I went through three federations, the Hong Kong Association, the United States and Canada, right. They are just there as supplement they're not supposed to be, you know, you're not supposed to, like lean on them for everything for your success. And that's where the parents, and if I may be bold, and I probably am making a lot of enemies after this. I'm just saying mothers play a very important role in the kids because fathers, they they work, right. And the mothers spend a lot of time with the children. Right? Mums are so resilient, because we have to do so many things. We have to wear so many hats. So if if parents mothers can be just to use your strength to help have your child your strength, or be resilient, your strength of being lots of energy and solving problems. Those are unique values. Yeah, right. And if you can somehow help the child, your child to embark on that embrace those qualities that will go that will serve them way, way more on the court and tell them them how to hit a forehand and backhand. Well, that's the job of the coach anyways.

Daniel Kiernan  43:57

Very good. And your stories of fleeing a country and spending years apart from family and as you know, big, big things, big, big things. Now, you know, I spoke to Andy Murray recently. And Andy story, you know, he was in the school in Dunblane, when, when the massacre happened, you know, the big the big shooting, then just after that, then his parents split up and that was a big trauma. Then he's brother who is very close to left to another Tennis Academy. And the question I asked him is, it feels like it doesn't have to happen, of course, but a lot of successful people come from some trauma or something that's and the words that for me that I certainly find hard as a parent actually, but also as a coach is how do you artificially create situations, because true resilience and True Grit and that ability to go, well actually, I'm hitting a fluffy tennis ball over the net, a fluffy yellow tennis ball over the net. I've just come from this, you know, like that, that ain't gonna affect me. There's a lot of kids and I include my children in this they haven't Touchwood. And I'm pleased they haven't they haven't dealt with that much hardship. So how do how do we artificially create those systems in those, those situations that are going to that are going to help build the resilience that is needed? I'm not just talking about on the tennis court here I'm talking about in life, right, you know, you have to be pretty resilient in life, you know, is that that must be something that you've thought about or come across. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

Patricia Hy  45:57

That comes up a lot. I believe podcasts like yours, bringing to the attention, parents need to feel they need to feel it's okay. In my in my training with the parents. And I said, Look, find a programme, do your research, right about the coaches, their credibility, meaning that they're safe people, right, once you've determined that these are solid coaches, get out of the way, because the coaches, the coaches need to do the work. As coaches, we're always constantly pushing the players to do things outside of the box outside their comfort zone in order to grow. And they'll be doing drills on the court, they'll be doing learning skills that are outside of the comfort zone. And then you get the other side of the parents, oh, my child needs to play with a better player. And I have a story for you, where I'm not comfortable in bringing the name because this came out, you know, with with in this conversation because she might not want to be exposed. So let's just say this player worked with us and she was ranked in the 200. Some on the WTA. Right, we moved away from South Carolina to Georgia. And she went off to USDA, the her ranking clip kept plummeting. Eight months later, I may have gotten these dates wrong. But many months later, her she her ranking plummeted, she called my husband, can I come back to train with you? And we're just starting our new academy in Georgia. My husband says, well, we don't have players at your calibre. We only have an 11 and 12 year old which were our kids. And this player goes, I'm coming. Right? So she comes. She's training with this 1112 year old, her ranking her level of play started taking back shape. And she started doing well again, mind you, this 11 and 12 year olds were very focused. We're not talking about you know, just normal 11. But obviously they play said she will kill them. Oh, no, in no time, but they could hang in the drills with her. So how do you explain that? That's because this player wants to make it happen. I have come across so many, but it's such an disillusion thinking players make players better players don't make players better. They you know, coaches good coaching make players better. It's an education.

Daniel Kiernan  48:25

And I would imagine, in every single Academy tennis club in the world, it's the number one question like me, I'm the director of Sato tennis academy Academy, I set up 14 years ago, I would say I feel that question. Most is most is the sort of salts, you know. And, you know, I would I would say it's also I would say though, quite a lot of coaches also, I feel that question from coaches as well. And, you know, I a big thing we have at the academy is it starts with us. You know, and I think coaches have a duty as well to get that right. You know, to get that right. Because it's it's something that, yeah, it's a problem, right? It's in an individual sport. It's always it's always a problem for somebody, you know, so so so then it brings entitlement, it brings all the wrong energies it brings it brings all of the wrong energies.

Patricia Hy  49:38

Absolutely. If I may share this, this really kind of funny story with you. So as I mentioned, we were at the club and I was doing quite well. 11 years old. Members didn't want to play with me anymore. Because they didn't want to lose the men's wherever. So my dad couldn't find anyone to plenty matches but then I needed practice matches my godfather who was a hacker. Yeah, but he knew how to keep score he the underplay some way, right. But he was a hacker, right. And he would play with me. And he would beat me in the beginning. And I eventually, soon after I beat him, and it was the most boring thing then it was so boring, because you know, I'm 11 year old playing for the summer when you're 11-14 years old. So I got to the point where I beat him six love in no time, right? So in my mind, Oh, good. I'm done. I don't have to play him anymore. Right? My dad goes, Oh, yeah, you're playing a match. Tomorrow, you're going to start with a handicap. So I started at love 15 every game. I still beat him quite handily. Went to love 30 Yep. Went to love 40 I'm telling you, it doesn't matter who you play a year down, left 40 You better keep your focus because you're going to lose. And yeah, and I lost to him in the beginning. And I was frustrated. Because I guess I was quite competitive because I just you know, because he's a hacker, right? I mean, I'm not he's so anyways, but yeah, credit to my dad, he found ways to find a way to get me to compete.

Daniel Kiernan  51:11

There's there's always constraints that can be put in there, you know, and that it's about being creative. Patricia, I we're gonna have to speak another time. Because I've just looked at my sheet and we know they know this is amazing. And I'm not letting you go yet. But there's a couple of things I want to jump into this I'm gonna have to leave a couple of topics that I would still love to get your thoughts on because and we'll have to do it another time. It's a me This is fascinating and genuinely I could talk to you for hours. So this is this is this has been lovely for me and I'm sure if everyone listening as well, but you as a player. I have to ask you a couple of fun things because you know, you were a serious tennis player. You know, we're not talking about some someone like me who pretended to play tennis and pick up a few points and do a little bit of this and a little bit of that you were a serious serious tennis player, you know, making a quarterfinals of the US openers in singles, you know semi finals of a doubles Grand Slam. You mentioned earlier you played Monica Seles, you, you came across Steffi Graf as well on the court, you know, like big super, super, super stars of our game. So who Who was your toughest opponent and why?

Patricia Hy  52:35

My toughest opponent was Jennifer Capriati

Daniel Kiernan  52:40

Right. Okay.

Patricia Hy  52:41

Do you remember the golden child? She was 16? Absolutely. She wasn't about every WTA event. She was like, 1617 I don't know. And then she won the gold medal at the Olympics. And I played her in New York at the US Open third round. That was that was a very, very tough situation. Anytime you played an American US Open, you're playing games like country. You're not just playing. You're playing the country. And I remember that match. I was so nervous. And

Daniel Kiernan  53:15

because of her age, because of the crowd, because everything you should,

Patricia Hy  53:20

it was just situation. You know, you had the US Open and your third round, and I wasn't having a great year, right that year I remembered coming from like the Olympics where I lost 10 match points of Mary Jo Fernandez. So definitely coming into I was not in my greatest tennis level. But I played her. And I I remember going to because I had a really bad experience before where the year before I was I had food poisoning and then I had to play Sabatini on this on the stadium. I played my worst absolute worst match. So now I'm going in third round again. And so you just remember these things, right? And all I remember was like, I mean, I can feel it now. Like, the stadium is gonna rock against me. That's all I remembered. So I step on the court, and I couldn't feel my arms. I was so nervous. But then something happened in this is I pretended that the stadium was for me. I pretended so hard. I'm like, okay, every time I hear the club clapping for me, so I was at this dream like and I yeah, I pulled up the biggest upset in my journey, and that's what it's because of the situation playing a player who is supposed to win the US Open, and then the situation in itself, and then that will come down as my greatest fear that overcame

Daniel Kiernan  54:41

and in such a clever way. We're learning all the time, right and in the US Open this year with Gabby, I know you know, Gaby, Gaby Dabrowski, who I'm working with and then and then Erin Routliffe, they were stepping out on the air Arthur Ashe for the final of the women's doubles. And I mean, they did an amazing job, you know, to be able to handle that pressure, as they had actually previously against Townsend, who had the crowd in a frenzy at the US Open. But what Gabby said is before the match what she did is an I would like to take the credit for this, but I can't. This is 100%. Gabby. She said, I just imagined that because they were playing under the roof. I just imagine that we were playing a first round US Open, and it had rained, and they'd moved us from the outside Colts. Now, a few years earlier that had happened to her, she'd actually played a first round match at US Open on on Arthur Ashe under the roof because it had rained. And I must admit, I had the I had the thought process of I mean, one fair player here, too. Is it that easy to trick the brain? You know, like a because it's one thing to say I just imagine that it's that. But actually, the way the brain can work if you try and control it. It's no, it's not. No, it's not. It's the final, it's the final, it's the fact you know, like, so. So talk me through that from you like your ability to trick the brain. And now in the work that you're doing, is that something that you would teach your clients? Is that something that you that you believe is a legitimate technique to be able to use in them in the most pressurised of situations, to be able to trick the brain? That it's actually it's a different situation than it actually is? And how do you overcome that little voice that starts to tell you that it's not

Patricia Hy  56:52

checking the brain is the thing that I used all the time, and it was not taught to me? I just found it on my own. But like we were saying earlier, you know, these days, kids are fed with so much information. They don't think for themselves too much. But I was given a lot of space to think for myself. Another technique that is with practice. I used to get really nervous when I was ahead. Closing out the match. Yeah, right. I would pretend I was behind. Yeah, I will pretend I will. Yeah, I use that a lot to the point. As long as you don't, don't lose a score. But yeah, this an umpire, so you never lose a score. But it is a trick of the mind that, you know, I this is how I explained it to my clients, right? There is the brain and then there's the mind the difference? The brain is obviously for survival. Yeah. Why would the brain right? The mind see the mind as the software? Yeah, the brain is the hardware, the mind is the software is what you programme in is what is going to come out? What are you focusing on? I'm focusing on the crowd is for me, the crowd is for me, and then you shut everything out. Because if you don't specifically, direct your focus, to a certain point is going to go wild. I could not afford to let my mind go wild because I would be so nervous hearing things. And we hear about athletes being in the zone. And it's truth. When you're in the zone. You're in this bubble, and it takes work. It's you convincing you basically, that's it. Like you said, you know, people cannot convince you, if you can convince you, it's you playing indoors is my first round. You go with that. And you stick with that. And I can definitely relate to Gaby with that. And by the way, I was commentating at the US Open. Actually, I covered Gabby's match against Thompson. Fernandez, did you? I did, it was really, really fun. It was absolutely spectacular how they came back and won that match because Townsend and Fernandez had it. They were on the roll. They were on the roll. Yeah. And then they turned it around. Yeah, they and then Gaby and Erin just turned it around. But anyways, I hope I answered that question about tricking your mind. It is I do work with my client, just like you know, I will say this, I tried different techniques, different tools, because that's what it is. Some some of them couldn't do it. They would actually I would say try that in practice. Don't try that in a match. Right in a practice. And they and the feedback was like she she couldn't do it. And now it's absolutely fine. And then we work on a different we keep looking at what works. And one thing that I the players really like is the reset button, by the way, the reset button, where I get them to find an object, an object where it could snap them back into the moment because it is the same thing about the mind keeping the focus in that bubble. So they're in the zone more.

Daniel Kiernan  59:58

So can you give us an example of that.

Patricia Hy  1:00:02

The latest one is for female players. It's the hair tie. Right? So I will have her go into a shop and find her favourite colour. Yeah, right. Put it on her wrist on her arm a little bit like Bianca Andreescu when she had that thing on her arm, yes, remember? So this is Yep, so the thing is, so at a certain point when she feels nervy or stress, snap at it, snap at it five times, and count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And the purpose of that is to stay in the moment.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:37

Very good, right. But I would like you to come smiling, because if you were working with a 16 year old Dan Kiernan, who used to get very stressed and angry when he played. Coaches tried it with me, when so this was, what, 27 years ago, to put an elastic band, so not a hair tie, but the elastic band around my wrist. And what I was told, and it was actually it was with a mental coach Pete Terry, and I hope that if Pete ever hears this, I hope you're well Pete, it's a long time. And I apologise that we all started laughing when you told us to think of the colour red. When we when we did the mental training session, as a group, we were, we were boys, we were 14, 15. And we were very immature. So I do apologise. However, this I got so angry in this thing, the whole idea was that I gave myself a little, just a little pull of the band, and it would snap me back into the press. So that that that was the thought process. However, I got so angry that I got an I really pulled it and it came back, it smacked into my wrist, blood went everywhere in the band fell off. So now I ended up with a really bad wrist. Now, I don't know if you can do that with a hair tie. But it was something and I guess it's what works for who? Because, you know, going back to the story of the tricking of the mind, I don't know if that would work for me, I think it's a really skillful mind to be able to do that. I think you've, you've got to have real skill, the elastic band didn't work for me. But there is something out there that obviously works for everybody, you know, and it's, it's, it's a, it's a fascinating part of the sport or part of life. And it's something I certainly completely love. You know, I love I've worked with lots of sports psychologists as a coach over the years. I love conversations about it. I think it's just such a fascinating subject. You know, one day I need to do even more education on it as well. But what got you into that because you as a very successful player, then as a coach, you know, running an academy, I believe with your husband, you know, what was it and what was the, I guess the influence behind you wanting to jump more into and become more of a specialist in that side of the game?

Patricia Hy  1:03:05

Well, the mental part was always my thing. Now that I know that I'm doing it because when I started showing up on the tour, I obviously I was smaller than everybody else by size, right. And my dad always said, you know, if you want to be successful, you got to out think your opponent and outrun your opponent. So I was always using my my head, if you will, to be tactically to beat my much bigger opponents. So when I went into coaching, we moved to Canada in 2015, I was at this club, and I was in charge of this elite programme that consisted of 23 players. And I realised every time I speak to the players, or to the parents, it was about the mental stuff. It was really about engaging the self, you know how to push themselves through things. And so in 2017, I decided I wanted to reach more people in our parents were having problem with with handling the tennis journey with the kids and I would educate the parents help the parents out. And then I noticed that parents were having problems with some of the coaches then I would guide you know, so I was always bridging about things. So then I said, You know what, I'm going to I'm going to try this route. I'm going to come away from unquote coaching and go into the mental performance coaching. I went to to UCLA for two years only. So and I'm at the age where you know what my credentials is personal experience on the tour being a parent you know and and Olympian and athlete myself. So that's my certification is life experience for myself? Because I thought about going back to school, but I'm at the age I don't want to go back so I educate myself with certifications. Like I would get my hands on any certification there is online, I would educate myself, so I thought really weird I thought I thought I I was so special. Oh, yeah, no one's doing that the mental performance coaching, I didn't know it was a thing. Of course, it's a thing, right? So, so I had one client, I reached out to somebody, and then it's so all my clients are word of mouth. So I do a nice job communicating with the coaches and the player because it is, it's the gap. Because sometimes what the coaches are trying to do, I understand what they're trying to do, not necessarily the player they may not understand, especially the younger players. So that's my, my gap, right, bridging the gap between the two, and then guiding the parents along on the sideline, how to be supporting the supporting role from the parents. So yeah, so that's why I went into this because I wanted to, to reach the mass and not just 23 players.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:53

Very good and and you've touched out the I call it the triangle, but maybe it's a square actually, if we start adding in the mental I call it actually mental fitness coach. But I'm I'm a big believer that all tennis players will have this just like if you said it does a tennis player, have an s&c coach or fitness coach 30 years ago, they might not have but now you would say well, that's crazy that they don't. And and I think it's a very similar concept, you know, you use that concept of the gym earlier of, you know, that ability to lift a heavier weight and condition yourself to tolerate more weight. And certainly my my philosophy, my view on it is it's about learning to tolerate more stress and motion, but still being able to commit to things that are helpful, you know, and that's ultimately having a fitter mind. You know, and I am a big believer in 20 years that everybody will be working with a mental fitness coach, just like they would be with a physical fitness coach. And I think that stigma is being overridden more and more as we go. I think actually, if you if you look at the top 100 players in the world right now, and the men and women's side, they walked be many, if any that aren't, you know, even you know, even if they're not necessarily talking, talking about it, but one of the biggest things for me through that developmental years is that triangle or that square for bringing this in, of player, coach and parent, you know, on how how important that is, you know, and that everyone is on the same page, everyone's, you know, speaking the same language, everyone's sending the same energies, the same vibes, everyone's pushing forward, as soon as this cracks within that, that ultimately the player misses out, you know, so what does that look like? Successfully? You know, if you're, if you're talking about some of the most successful teams around players in developmental years, how does that triangle look and interact for you?

Patricia Hy  1:08:06

It it has to be when the players ready, the success lies in because this is a very interesting, what I've just come across is that everybody has that mental, you know, mental coach, fitness coach and all that. And the athlete checks out, believe it or not, yeah, I find that very interesting. So the success comes in, the player has to be ready, not when the parents ready. I agree. Yeah, the parents has to be ready. The player has to be ready. And how you can see they're ready is they're implementing the work that the tools they have learned, right. And through the hard times, this is when you really see somebody is make putting it to use everybody when they're fresh when they have enough sleep when they're well. Oh, yeah, I It's easy, right? Yeah, they flow through it. But were they being pushed out and not having a great day? Are they implementing what they're learning from this tool? On the mental tools, then that's where success starts coming? Is is it as a team, that triangle, as you will, you know, then there's great flow in communications between the coach the player and myself because I check in with a coach all the time, because I want to make sure that they are on the same or at least very similar level because some you know, the gap is very minor. I know we're on the same page, but if the coach is telling me one thing and the player doesn't because they get emotional and their assessment may not be accurate, then there's that big, but success comes from communications and put aside the ego. That ego is important. Put aside the ego and we got to get to work as one. Very

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:51

Good and the future for you, Patricia, you've it feels like you've not stood still You know, wearing many different hats you mentioned the commentating, you know, you've had the academy, you're the tennis parent, your kids are still playing and playing to a very high level, you know, you know, in the in the men's mental performance world, what's next for you?

Patricia Hy  1:10:16

What's next I'm always learning, you know, that's the thing. I believe I'm, I'm a lifelong student of the mental game, I want to go out there and help and think goodness to technology that allows me to do so to continue my work with international players, or, you know, players where I cannot get to, because I don't travel with players, but they do send me videos and I constantly learn and that's why I do commentating to keep me updated with with what's going on because I need to see you know, in order to teach, I need to learn so I can teach but at the end of the day, Dan, you know, what's really all this learning? is really for me? Yep, it's kind of crazy in running about way as I'm learning all you know, how to overcome stress every day. Our lives is full of situations we have to deal with. Just because we get older in age doesn't mean we deal with it smarter we forget things. And when I learned when I continue to learn new ways, tools to help the players I have to walk my talk I walked my talk right and I do have my moments I'm not saying I'm all put together here I do have my moments but what I teach comes back what would I do what would I say to a certain player than I do it right so yeah, so this is what I will continue my work with a mental performance coach with with players and then continue the journey with my two kids with my husband coaching Life is good for now.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:56

Amazing Patricia we have a we have a quick fire round that we always do on control the controllables but before then I just want to say to you a massive massive thank you for coming on you know I've I've loved the conversation I could talk to you for hours I've said that I hope that I do get to talk to you for a few more hours at some point whether it's at a tournament or getting you on again but you've been an absolutely amazing brilliant guests and thank you for sharing so openly and honestly. But thank

Patricia Hy  1:12:26

you for having me I just love the chat love the honesty and you know I just wish more people would do that because you know we all need a little bit of honesty that it doesn't hurt.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:40

Are you ready quick fire round. Sure. Hey, forehand or backhand forehand serve or return return singles or doubles singles. pro tennis or college tennis College. Roger or Rafa. Roger. Net cord or not. Net cord medical timeout or not.

Patricia Hy  1:13:09

Medical timeout Who's your favourite

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:12

Current top tennis player?

Patricia Hy  1:13:17

Alcaraz

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:19

Seles, or Graf

Patricia Hy  1:13:22

Graf,

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:24

Your favourite Grand Slam?

Patricia Hy  1:13:27

Wimbledon?

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:28

What does control the controllables mean to you?

Patricia Hy  1:13:32

Honesty

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:35

What's one rule change that you would have in tennis?

Patricia Hy  1:13:40

No more coaching.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:43

And what's the hardest role? Player, parent or coach?

Patricia Hy  1:13:51

Parent?

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:53

I concur. Lastly, and this, this answer means that you're signing your life away to finding this person to come on to the podcast next. Who should our next guests be on control the controllables.

Patricia Hy  1:14:14

Our next guest, my husband?

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:19

There we go. We keep it in the family.

Patricia Hy  1:14:23

We keep it in the family night, not only because he's my husband, but he is very knowledgeable. He's coached on the tour. Coach many, many Tour players so he's just very knowledgeable and he's a Constant Learner of the game and life. You want to enjoy speaking with him?

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:40

Well, I'm already looking forward to it. We'll sort it out in the next few weeks. Thank you so much for your time. Patricia,

Patricia Hy  1:14:47

thank you so much. Take care of yourself. I'll see you the next gentleman.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:51

Thank you and has your mouth shut yet? In astonishment listening to that story, as Patricia was talking I was just like what? Wow, she, she had me transfixed. And yeah, it brings up a couple of things in my head one, just her ability to be able to talk about that almost emotional illness. And it shows the power of the mind that she's been able to overcome those challenges. But also it brings up and it's come up quite a few times on the podcast, this, this idea of trauma, you know, do you need some form of trauma and challenge to be able to become this resilient world class mental athlete. Now, we can't artificially create that. So, of course not, because not everyone has had that. But it does go to show that when you are having a difficult time, and I took this on board about 10 years ago, and somebody said to me, when something bad happens, say the word good. And that's not an easy thing to do. But if you're able to do that, and you're able to then change the mindset, into looking at the opportunity in adversity, there always tends to be something that comes along. And it's a great way for us to try and live our life, it's certainly very inspirational, to see how Patricia has done that, and taken that into the success that she has had. And I'm just so thankful that she shared so openly with that. And I think we will all take so much and then being able to take that into being a tennis parent. And, you know, I think another topic I'd love to just pick up on a little bit is the energy and the vibe that you have at the side of the court. I'm a big believer that you can impact matches, positively and negatively, just from body language, just from the way that you all with your eyes. And I thought it was really interesting, what Patricia said about the smile. I'm a tennis parent, that wouldn't work for my boy, you'd be shouting at me telling me to stop smiling. Maybe a more neutral face works for him. But it's about working out what works best for your children or the players that you work with. But ultimately, having that support of face, making sure that they feel your support at the side of the court. I thought that was a really interesting topic. And here we are now the moving into the very final tournament of the arrow. As I said at the beginning a big congratulations to Canada, who are the Billie Jean King Cup champions and what an amazing experience for all of those girls and their captain Heidi who did a fantastic job. And then everyone comes to our side of the world next week. Again Malaga how lucky are we we had severe for the Billie Jean King Cup finals. And now Malaga for the Davis Cup. And I know we will be cheering on Great Britain as they take on Serbia next Thursday. But also a big shout out to Finland, Terry Haley Avara, who I've worked with this year, they are bringing over 2000 fans from Finland. So that is going to be a great atmosphere as they take on Canada. I'm going for a GB Finland final on Sunday, and may the best team win. And then maybe we have a little bit of downtime before we start thinking of Australia already. It's a great sport that we're all involved in. There's many more exciting times ahead over the next couple of weeks. And I'm sure 2024 is going to deliver as well. And that's the same on the podcast. You know, we've got lots of exciting things coming your way in the next few days. We're going to be releasing our first podcast short. We're now 205 episodes in. And there's so many amazing episodes that maybe people have missed, and parts of episodes that we are just highly inspired and keep going back to so we're going to be cutting some of those out and bringing them to you as well. The first one coming your way. There'll be Valorie Kondos field, who I always says still to this day, Episode 62 is probably my favourite of every single one. She's an amazing woman with amazing messages, so don't miss that. Look out for more great guests coming your way as we end up 2023 But a big shout out to you all. Please ratings reviews like shares of the podcast. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables