Sonay Kartal - Focusing on her own path

DISCLAIMER: Please note we use a transcription service, so there may be some errors in the following transcription of this episode. If you can, please refer to the audio for exact quotations.

Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Control the Controllables I'm Dan Kiernan from SotoTennis Academy in Spain, and we teamed up with Max tennis academy in Ireland. We brought this podcast together to entertain, educate, and energize the tennis community through the different lenses of the sport that we love. From Grand Slam champions to those at grassroots level, from sports journalists to backroom staff. Our aim is truly to get under the bonnet of the tennis world at all levels. So sit back and enjoy the show. Welcome to Episode 145 of Control the Controllables 2021 has been the year of Emma Raducanuand many of you would have seen this amazing video clip of a young Emirati Carney playing an orange ball tennis, a massive rally that went viral on all social media platforms after her US Open win. Well, she actually lost that point. And the girl that we're talking to today is the girl that beat her

Sonay Kartal  01:21

I realized how important losing actually is and how, you know me losing is only going to make me better. Obviously, you know, nobody likes losing. But I think it's it's very important and something I can handle pretty well.

Daniel Kiernan  01:34

No, I absolutely promise that that will be the last time that I talked about Emirati cardhu in this chat, because this is not about Emma, this is about a girl who's absolutely on her own journey. She's an incredible person talks in such a mature way. She's only 20 years old. And that is Sonay Kartal. Now, anyone that is following tennis closely, she's only played three ITF pro circuit events this year, but she's won 15 matches and lost one. And the only match that she lost to set was actually the three set match she lost in the final. She's a UK Pro League 2021 winner. She's got a great story. She's very humble. She's starting out her professional career. And I'm excited to see where that takes her. And I was really excited to have this chat with with Sonay and I'm sure you guys are all going to love her. She's going to take on a whole load of new supporters after you listen to this episode. This is our last episode before Christmas. It's a great one, and I'm gonna pass you over to sneer cartel. So Sonay Kartal a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Sonay Kartal  02:51

I'm doing very well. Thank you. I'm excited to be on. I've I've heard a lot about this podcast. Yeah, I'm, I'm excited to to get going. And to kind of give some, some facts about myself to people that kind of haven't really heard about me. And

Daniel Kiernan  03:07

What a what an introduction that you were given to the to the podcast as well. Fran Jones, I don't know if you had a chance to listen to it and there but she she spoke very highly about you. And I think it was it was lovely to hear because someone ranked higher. It was the fact that she'd noticed you she said she didn't know you really well. But she'd noticed you over the last few months working incredibly hard. And she really felt that your story should be heard. So how did you feel when you heard that front and said that about you?

Sonay Kartal  03:40

I did I actually I heard the kind of the the little snippet where she mentioned me. And I actually first time I met her I think it was maybe only once or twice like she said it was quite a few years ago. I was at the National Tennis Center doing a grass court camp leading up to Wimbledon. And I think one of the one of the I would say coaches said to me that I was gonna have a hit with her in the afternoon. And yeah, that was that was kind of the first time we met. And, you know, I remember she obviously at that time and probably still is now she has a much higher level than me currently. So for me, it was really nice to kind of hit with someone who was someone older and kind of experience her her kind of level that she's playing.

Daniel Kiernan  04:24

And she certainly mean for me, for me personally sitting there talking to Fran one is such an inspirational story, but also more than that an inspirational person who seems to be really getting everything that she can out of a tennis and you know, it must be great for you as a British player to have these girls like Fran to look up to.

Sonay Kartal  04:46

Of course yeah. You know her. Her story is absolutely incredible. And you know, I remember having a chat with her and it's, it's it also makes it so much nicer when the individual is such a lovely person. You know, she, she said nothing but kind words to me. And yeah, my, I haven't had a great hit. And you know, I spoke to her a little bit after and she was she was giving me some really encouraging advice.

Daniel Kiernan  05:12

And what a year you've had when I was having a little look, only three ITF Pro Circuit events, but but only one loss. So that yeah, you started to dip you've started to dip your feet into into these events now, you know, how have you felt that the year's gone?

Sonay Kartal  05:34

Yeah, I'm fairly new to the, to the ITF circuit, obviously, last year with with COVID. That was my, you know, last year was my kind of, was the time I was gonna really give it a shot. And so obviously, you know, this year I kind of I was in Turkey about a month ago, two months ago. And it was my first RTF terminal for quite a few years, actually, maybe three years. And, you know, I had no expectations. I kind of just really found a groove, but I'm kind of, kind of in that groove right now. Yeah, I'm, I've got a good momentum going, I'm in a really good place off court as well. So I think it's all kind of helping, and it seems to at the minute, it's kind of all, all just falling into place.

Daniel Kiernan  06:21

And is that a bad time than to be getting into a groove as we come to the end of a calendar year?

Sonay Kartal  06:29

I think it could be but for me, I've I've, you know, I've played quite a lot of matches in a short, short amount of time. So for me, it's it's nice to kind of, you know, kind of recharge and reset. And, you know, I've got a few things, obviously over these tournaments that I've picked up on. So it's nice to be able to kind of train over Christmas and New Year, and then kind of see if I can pick up from where I left off in the new year.

Daniel Kiernan  07:00

And I think the thing that hits me, I mean, again, in the in the British tennis world, I know most of the names, if not, if not the players. And I'd certainly seen your name around and you know, knew of your abilities. But it does feel like you've come out the woodwork a little bit. But But that's also, I guess people can be quite naive on that what what has been going on behind the scenes over the last 18 months that's enabled you to then come out and obviously the UK Pro League has been a big success for yourself. But what what's what's enabled that to happen? And because it seems like big improvements were made.

07:45

I mean, for me, it goes beyond 18 months, like you said, it's it's almost pushing about three, three years. You know, I've been very unlucky with injuries. I was I was out when I was I think I'm gonna say about 15 I had a really small injury on my wrist, but it kept me out for two years almost. Yeah. And then it was always, you know, I overcome an injury. And I'd get to that point where, okay, I'm fit enough to be back on court now. But then I play a tournament or two, and then I come away with that with another injury. So for me, yeah, it was really frustrating. And I, I did end up kind of taking six months out just because mentally, you know, once or twice, it's, you know, it's fine. It's doable, but kind of when it keeps happening and you're spending all this time in the gym, and you're feeling fit, but it's, you know, you can't have a good run of tournaments because your body is kind of letting you down. So for me, I kind of struggled with that. So I just took six months out and kind of you know, did some of the stuff that you can't really do when you're competing all year round, and then kind of missed the sport terribly. So then. Yeah, I spent I mean, for quite a few years I've spent more time in the gym in the physio room now actually on court. And so I think right now my, my body is at like the strongest it's been and with these pro leagues. They were so beneficial for me just the fact that I mean, you know, they were beneficial in many ways. Many ways of COVID Nobody's nobody's able to compete. Everyone was able to get get the match practice they needed from taking so long out. The prize money was also incredible. You know, it was you're coming away from this tournament and having money in your pocket to put towards another tournament in the future. But for me, I really used it to just replicate the stress that I'm putting my body through when I'm abroad or you know, a trip that's costing more money because I'm in a different country. So I really capitalized on that and just almost tried to Like train my body to be used to this many matches. And obviously, you know, when you're, when you're starting out on the tour, you haven't to qualify. But you know, it's potentially an extra two, three matches. So yeah, I just I just trained my body to try and you know to be okay with being put under this amount of stress and this many days in a row. And

Daniel Kiernan  10:21

I think Sonay, it's quite an interesting one, because it's, there's a couple of things that jumped to my mind on it. One, one is winning is a habit. And all we we talk about it all the time, but it just is, you know, when you get when you get used to shaking hands, as the winner, then then all of a sudden, your ability to have composure, in those big moments is relatively easy to come by, when we're struggling to win matches, then we're overthinking everything. And it's very difficult in those moments. And it seems like you've got so many of those matches under your belt, and then went to compete more on the international stage. And I think the second one is, and this is, I think, a big one for players out there. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this is if your level is there, then the ranking will follow. Whereas I think a lot of tennis players are searching the ranking, without putting the work in to develop the level. And I don't know what you what you think about that, because it seems to me, like you've got the level and worked on the level and made these improvements developed your body. And then when you're ready, and you're feeling confident in you've won matches in a more domestic environment, you've then gone and capitalized internationally afterwards. Yeah,

Sonay Kartal  11:46

I think, no, I agree. I think so many people are focused on just the number next to their name, you know, they, they can, you know, look up who they're playing, you know, the night before the match, and they're looking at their ranking, and they're looking at, you know, what they've done and who they've beaten. But for me, I've always, you know, growing up, I never, I never, ever was bothered about the ranking at all, you know, because, you know, if there are 100 in the world, you know, you wake up, you know, they're not gonna play like 100 in the world, you know, what even is 100 in the world level, I think that you can, you can become really fixated on just, you know, losing matches, and worrying about, you know, your rankings, in the rankings getting higher, it's not getting better. And I actually remember growing up playing some junior tournaments, you know, the British nationals, and I'd be away with, you know, kind of a bunch of players would be this one big team. And, you know, we'd be sat at the dinner table, and the drawer would come out. And first thing they would do, and I think even the parents, some parents are guilty of this, you know, they look up, they look up who they're playing, and they're like, oh, so and so's ranked, you know, this in the UK. And I think, subconsciously, it can almost put, it can almost put yourself at a loss, you can almost go on to the match court, having already lost because you're so focused on this number, you're, you know, you're like, well, this person is, you know, 100 spots above me. So, you know, they're gonna beat me, but, you know, you nobody plays, you know, you don't play too much as the same. So I think, yeah, I think it's, it's definitely something I don't focus on. And I think, you know, it has helped me. I remember coming off the court during the, during the classic week for the Pro League, and somebody said to me, Oh, you just be a girl. That's like, 500 spots above? Just question. And I was like, did I was like, I didn't know, you know, I don't look at the number at all. I think it's also can be much healthier way to kind of approach it.

Daniel Kiernan  13:50

I think it's an unbelievably healthy way. I mean, I was at an event with a few of the younger players from, from the subtle tennis academy last week. And what really struck me actually is before every match, they were passing on amongst each other, what their UTRs were. So what we were talking about, were talking under 11, under 12, under 13, under 14. And they'd all made their mind up whether they were going to win the match before the match happened. And and then the behaviors then you could see was setting in, not just in regards to I don't think I can win that match. But the other one that we saw was players thinking I should win this match easy. And then and then and then all of a sudden, they're getting themselves in trouble. Now I think that's a global issue within our sport, but it's also a reality of the sport as well. So it sounds as if you have this strong mindset that you were able to kind of stay away and tolerate those thoughts. From an early age how, how does that come about?

Sonay Kartal  15:03

Yeah, I think, you know, like you said, it does go both ways. You know, you can all the big one, like you said, is being complacent. Like if you get too complacent before a match, I almost think that's, that's kind of worse, you know, if you go down in the setting, you then start playing these mind games with yourself, just, you know, being our I should be, you know, I should be through love up. So for me, I've kind of, I've always gone on the court, you know, no matter what my ranking is, her ranking is whether I've been her before, whether I'm, you know, I've lost her before, I, I always go on the court the same way and just, you know, say I've played someone five times in a row, I'm still gonna go on the court as if it's the first time we've played. And I've always been like that. And it's also something my, you know, my coaches have really kind of drilled that part of it in me as well. So that was definitely a big help, I think, you know, help from the coaches, right, from a young age. You know, it's always, you go on the court and you give, you know, you give your opponent mistakes, and, you know, you, you shouldn't win or you shouldn't lose, you know, if you're playing good tennis, then you're going to give yourself a good chance to, to come out as the winner.

Daniel Kiernan  16:22

And let's give a shout out to those coaches, because those are, those are the messages that we need to be sending to our players. So who were those coaches that had such an impact on you when you were younger?

16:34

So I've been at pavilion Avenue tennis club, in Hofer all my life now for going over 10 years. And I've had the same, the same coaching team, I've got Ben Reeves, Judy Hobbs, and Martin ribs. To them for since I was about six, you know, my setup? Yeah, I'm very lucky with my setup, you know, they work they all know each other very well. They've all worked with each other for so many years now. And it's, you know, it's a good system, we've kind of got going each coach has their own, you know, does designated section and all worked together to, to, yeah, to try and help me improve as much as possible.

Daniel Kiernan  17:16

And taking you back to near to the, to those days when you started. And I'm sorry to mention it because I'm sure you've been mentioned, this has been mentioned to you non stop over the last few months. But the video of two young girls smacking, smacking a mini orange ball around and I'm sure a lot of the listeners, they'll know who one of them was who actually lost the point in Mr. radik Arnoux, while the girl that won that point against Emma and who was is an incredible tennis player in his in his following in those footsteps is Seneca cartella. You are who you are listening to today. So when you go back to that period, how or even before that, how did this tennis journey, this tennis thing start for you, and the passion growing from such a young age.

18:08

So I have an older brother. He's five years older than me, and he's 25. And he started having lessons at my club. He only ever took it to really county level. Lm unfortunately gave it up. But I would always go up to the club and my parents and watch him or he was doing squats, etc. And then one day, Judy came over to me, and she was trying to get one court for months. You know, she she tells me the story every time and I was I was really shy as a kid. You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't talk to anyone I'd hide behind my mum's back. And yeah, she she, she managed to after three months get me on court. And yeah, she said that had a natural, you know, good hand eye coordination and just kind of kind of Understood, understood the game. And then, you know, I started playing, I started in squads. You know, I went through every, every level there is in the British system. You know, I did county regional national duty did all the county close with the county cups. Yeah, and kind of, you know, I was playing orange ball under nines. And then, when I was 13, that was when I really decided that, you know, tennis was the was the sport for me. I was still kind of playing football and cricket at school was kind of like an after school thing. But it kind of got to the point where I was like, right, you know, I need to decide I need to, I need to pick a career. And, yeah, from 13 I chose that tennis was the mom's name. Isn't I've never looked back since.

Daniel Kiernan  19:52

And going back to that video that has gone viral. I guess that this can be looked at in one of two ways, you know, when you've not just in mini orange, but I'm sure, you know, em as a player that you've grown up with, played against numerous times of you, when you're sitting back and you're watching her, which I think all of us were completely blown away that she went on to win the US Open. Are you looking at that saying, that could be me? And that if Emma can do it, I can do it? Are you? Are you looking at that in through the eyes of quite a typical British tennis player that might go? Well, that's not fair. She had this she had that, you know, how, how was that? Honestly, in your, in your mind when you were watching that that unfold?

Sonay Kartal  20:41

Yeah, somebody, somebody asked me this the other day, and they said to me, it was in an interview, and the journalist was saying to me, you know, do I feel sorry for myself? And I just said, Absolutely not, you know, credit where credit is due, she's, she's putting in the hours, she's putting the hard work, you know, what she, what she's done is unbelievable. But I think, you know, I looked at it in quite a few ways, you know, obviously, absolutely nothing negative towards her or anything, or any kind of feeling sorry, for myself. You know, everyone's everyone's tennis journey is different, you know, in, even though mine has, has been more complicated and trickier. You know, it's, it has, you know, made me a different person, kind of having to overcome these, these obstacles. And mentally, it's made me so much tougher. But I think it, not just me, but I also think I can speak on behalf of a lot of other players who grew up playing her that it does, it gives you kind of this little, this little boost or a little nudge, the, you know, this dream that we're all chasing is very achievable. And, you know, it's not being you know, it's not over exaggerating, Senator Warner, you know, I want to win a Grand Slam. You know, this is someone who, who I've played many times those other people have had many times, and, yeah, I think, you know, I think if you looked at it negative, you know, it's just not doing anything for yourself, you've got to use it as a positive. Use it as kind of some momentum to be like, okay, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep going, I'm gonna keep sticking.

Daniel Kiernan  22:23

What What is your dream?

Sonay Kartal  22:26

My, my dream is to everyone says, I want to be number one, but I want to be kind of, I want to get to a, you know, obviously the highest possible ranking, but I want to continue the love for the sport. You know, I would love to be top 100 Sure. But yeah, I just want to make sure that, you know, I'm still enjoying tennis. I think that I think my life even after my playing career is over, I'm still going to be involved in tennis as much as I can think yeah, for me, I am in tennis is really all I've known. So yeah, I think that's the only route for me is, after my career, I'm gonna I kind of want to stick in stick in the industry, and maybe kind of do what my coaches have done with me, you know, get a play from a young age and experience that whole journey, but for me experienced it in the eyes of coaches time.

Daniel Kiernan  23:22

I absolutely love your mentality. I can't believe I'm talking to a 20 year old, you know, the, your head is, is so screwed on, you're very, very clear to see, you know, your mindsets in such a good place. And it's so lovely to hear. And it just one question that just jumped to my mind as you're as you're saying that all of that is Have you always been in love with tennis? Or has? Has there been any moments where you where you've fallen out of love with tennis?

Sonay Kartal  23:54

Yeah. I mean, I remember saying earlier than I did take six months out, though, that was that was kind of a mix with things I was you know, had some family illnesses going on that kind of that took a toll on it. The fact of again, being injured mentally took a toll on it. So that's the, I mean, the only kind of slight dip in my career that I've ever had towards tennis, but I mean, even even after kind of two weeks, I was kind of I you know, I had that itch to get back playing so so pretty much I'm in tennis is kind of tennis is all I've known. And

Daniel Kiernan  24:35

do you think you're stronger for that though? The fact that you've, you've had well, one that the the experience of the injuries, you know, but to having at a young age, the experiences of maybe this isn't for me, let me see if I want to try something else. Do you feel like you've come through that as a stronger character, and as someone that's even more attached to tennis because of it

Sonay Kartal  24:59

100% I think, I also think that, you know, everyone kind of loves, you know, everyone says, they love playing tennis, like, it's such a great sport, but it, it does teach you so many life lessons as well, it's, it's kind of more than a school. And so I think for me, you know, playing, kind of playing tennis Europe's and being 13. And traveling, traveling all over Europe at such a young age really kind of made me it made me grow up so fast. And it, you know, probably faster than it would have if I wasn't playing, you know, it forced me to kind of take ownership of, of my tennis made me very independent, and kind of, you know, made me develop all these life skills. So I think that, for sure, tennis is. Yeah, I mean, tennis has helped me massively.

Daniel Kiernan  25:55

Yeah, it's, it is an amazing sport. But I just, it's even if I take my, my journey, age 41, now, owner, and founder of a tennis academy, completely, it's completely my life. But I reckon if I go back to the ages of 16 1718, I had probably quite a strong dislike for the sport, and everything that went with the sport. And then there were certainly times as I played on the tour, as well, where those moments came up, where I doubted myself, I doubted whether I really wanted to be involved, if it was the life for me, and even now, there will be times. And I just think sometimes people have this fairy tale of what the world of tennis is, you know, you can have my overarching feeling is absolute love for the sport. But that doesn't mean that I haven't had little micro moments where, where it's been very tough. So I just think it's really important that people that are looking up to you, because there will be a lot of people out there that are looking up to you, that they they see that this isn't a fairy tale, you know, but you've got to you've got to push through those difficult moments to be able to get the goodness out of the sport, not just in terms of results. But as you're, you're seeing so well, they're the life skills and all of those other bits that come from, from really being involved and striving towards the best that you possibly can be in this sport.

Sonay Kartal  27:33

Of course, yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, like, you know, like you said, you know, I've, I've definitely had very, very, very minor moments where I thought, you know, this, you know, I remember waking up and just thinking, like, you know, what I'm choosing to do every day, like, you know, it's really hard. You know, I remember being being younger, kind of just being a teenager, and your friends are going out, and, you know, they're doing whatever, and you're like, you know, I can't I've, I've got training in a minute, or, you know, I've got to be in bed early tonight because of what training early the next morning. So I think that, obviously, you know, it does have a lot of sacrifices, you know, and I think what people forget is like, tennis is a very hard sport, it's, it's so much more than just running around a core and hitting a ball. You know, the mental side of it physically. You know, it's, it's tiring. And I think that's, that's also why it's important to, you know, have, you know, have a few days or have have a break, go and go and enjoy a long weekend doing something you want. And then just I think it's important to just always make sure you're, you know, you're taking care of yourself mentally, and kind of recharging yourself so that you never just become this kind of robot that's, you know, constantly doing the same thing over and over again, I think it's, it's really important to kind of keep things interesting and not make it to one dimensional.

Daniel Kiernan  29:00

You honestly, and I know I've said it already, but you're speaking as if you've had this, like, long, long career, and it's so somebody, you're either very smart girl who's learned learn incredibly quickly, or you've got some great advice behind you. Because that is I would expect to hear that from someone 3035 years old, that's just finished, it's finished their career, because I don't think many people get that balance right. In our sports. You know, I think a lot of us, from coaches, to water to fitness coaches, to players to journalists to whoever it may be it's quite a relentless sport. You know that can you can just go from week to week to today to week two yet you know you're moving in that way. So is that something that you've talked about with your coaches as well? Is that something from family friends? Where's, where's this wisdom? come from.

Sonay Kartal  30:00

So, you know, like I said, that six month break, we kind of had, you know, family illnesses, etc. And that kind of happened at an early age really, for me, it was kind of at 13. So, from that kind of age, I had to take, you know, real, like ownership of my tennis and, you know, kind of take charge of things and, you know, not relying on other people to kind of sort things out for me, or different things like that, I think, you know, I think it's so important, you know, you see a lot of younger kids, and it's their parents that are controlling everything. So I think, definitely me taking ownership from a young age is a factor to it. You know, I have a lot of, you know, my coaches and my parents, they're, they're very humble. My, my coaches, Judy, she used to play on the tour. So she's given me a lot of a lot of wisdom. And, you know, my, my parents always make sure that I'm, you know, very grounded. So, it's definitely a lot of factors kind of thrown in, kind of thrown into the mix.

Daniel Kiernan  31:10

But you even there, you and you've, you've talked about this, this young age where you've been almost forced into this situation, if you're not forced into that situation of taking that ownership from such a young age. It, it feels as if and this is what happens, I think 99% of tennis players, they just are then on the journey, until all of a sudden they realize what am I doing? They've not really, really thought of it. So if we put a coach's hat on you now, you know, that's it already, I can hear that coaches had coming through in a few years time. How do we get parents to understand that? How do we get coaches players to understand in a way that life Life has thrown something at you and it's, it's forced, it's forced that action? How do we get people to understand that intensity of learning, and that ownership, that's the word that really stands out? For me that absolute Extreme Ownership that you've taken of your life? How do we manufacture that, when life doesn't throw it at us?

32:24

So I, you know, for me, for me, it was forced into me, like, you know, I had no choice It was either take ownership or your tennis is just kind of, it's going to slowly fade out, then you're probably going to end up, you know, end up not playing it in, you know, a year or so time. And I think that a lot of parents can be almost too kind to, to their kid for playing. So I think it's almost like, Well, okay, I'm paying you, you know, I'm paying for you to go to this club, and I'm paying for the membership, I'm paying for your hours on call, and I'm paying for your equipment, it's either gonna be like, Okay, you're gonna, you're gonna show me that you you want to play and that you're gonna take this seriously, or I'm going to stop funding something your, your tennis career, but I think you have to be very careful of that. Because it's, you then don't want the parent to kind of be like, Okay, you're not winning matches, I don't think they should base it on winning matches, because then that's gonna get this pressure, and it's gonna be I need to win this otherwise, otherwise, Mom's not gonna pay for my next tournament or something. So I think it's, as long as you're giving, you know, as long as the child is giving 110% You know, that's all you can ask for. You know, I'm very lucky, my parents are very understanding and have come to the realization that I'm not going to win every match. And no one's going to win every match. You know, it's, it's normal to lose, it's healthy to lose. So I think, you know, as long as you're giving 110% That's kind of, that's all you can ask for, you know, because for me, I giving my best was kind of something I always did from a very young age. And then once I kind of grew up and got, you know, got older and realized how much money my, you know, my family had spent and how much they had dedicated for me to be able to go to these tournaments and train, you know, the one thing you don't want to have is that regret on your shoulders or being you know, my parents gave up all this for me, and I didn't even try my hardest for this tournament. So I think as long as, as long as your child is giving the best they can do then I think that's, that's gonna be, you know, a better start than nothing.

Daniel Kiernan  34:49

Thank you for the advice. I'm a I'm a tennis parent of an 11 year old boy just turned 11 year old boy, so that I'm gonna have to really listen back to that If you don't take it and take your advice on board as well, because I think it's, it's, it's really powerful to hear that from someone age 20, who is living it right now, you know, I think sometimes those reflections happen a little bit later, or at an old fuddy duddy, like myself trying to pass on those messages. And it's hard to relate, you know, so any any players and younger players listening to that will take so much from it, Mike

35:28

Yeah but sorry. But like, if, you know, obviously, you said there are players listening in. And I always think that I remember growing up and there was very little probably, I could count. I mean, they wouldn't even take on one hand, but I remember there was a mat Charles plan. And kind of just, I, you know, wasn't in a good headspace, I was still very young. Something happened that I can't remember what but I remember, just, for some odd reason, I didn't give my best for that match. And obviously, you know, you grow up, and I'm looking back on it now. And I'm just like, you know, I regret not not trying for a match. Because, you know, you get older, obviously, at the time, you know, you don't you know, you don't realize you kind of don't understand how much your parents are sacrificing for you. But I think, you know, obviously, I'm much older now I'm, you know, I'm the one that's funding myself. So, I just think yeah, for sure. It's always make sure you give 110%. So you don't, you know, you don't look back on it, and you don't, you don't carry any regret on your shoulders.

Daniel Kiernan  36:33

But loads I want to ask you, but you've just you've touched on the funding bit. And like I said to you at the start of this podcast, and before we started recording, you know, I, I want these, these episodes to be real, I want them to be, I want them to be real learnings for people. So you, I guess sitting at 800 ish in the world, how were you able to fund yourself and fund your tennis.

Sonay Kartal  37:04

So from pretty much my whole career, it was coming from my parents pocket. I haven't really had any funding, if I'm honest with you. And, you know, we touched upon the Pro League at the start. And that has been a huge reason for me to be able to, you know, go away for for the amount of many matches I did a few months ago, just because the Pro League was offering such such big money that it's able to cover, you know, one or two weeks abroad. But it's, it's so sad that tennis is such an expensive sport, because I remember growing up and then kind of 1617 and that point where you transition into the seniors, so many of my friends who I was competing with at the time had to had to give up just because, you know, not because they wasn't good enough, or because they they fell out of love for the for the sport, but because they just didn't have the financial support. So I think, you know, it's hard, you know, really, unless you're, you know, you're very, very high up in the rankings and your top 100 You're not really breaking even too much. I mean, for me to, you know, for example, for me doing one week in Turkey, I'm having to win the whole week for me to just make back while I've spent. So really, unless you're winning 15 K's you're not you're not making a profit. So, you know, it's, it's, it's extremely tough.

Daniel Kiernan  38:39

So if we talked about to give some realities, if you played a full calendar of 25 weeks of IGF Pro Circuit events, and as well as your coaches, you know, and I'm not trying to get into the detail of what you're paying your coaches, but what what is the cost of a year in and around your level? So your five 500 to 1000 WTA ranking level what's the reality of your costs

Sonay Kartal  39:13

I wouldn't be able to give you just because it's been you know, I haven't yet done that because because I've been injured

Daniel Kiernan  39:22

per week, per week, per week, like a weekend Turkey a weekend Cinzia. Those weeks? Um,

Sonay Kartal  39:29

I mean, obviously it can vary, you know, if you're going to a nicer place can be more expensive, but you know, you have to add up your coaches, but I mean, anywhere if I'm going to any 15k with a coach, I'm at a two grand loss of profit maybe. So, yeah, anytime I'm traveling with a coach, I'm losing money. Even if I'm winning this tournament, I'm still losing money. And if I'm going on my own, then I'm probably making And back while I've spent so. Yeah, it's, it's very tricky.

Daniel Kiernan  40:06

And how does that change? That's I think, I think that's the challenging part. And our sport. I know, we've had numerous people at the highest levels of the game on this podcast. And they often say that they're pushing towards that, but I'm not sure they really are, you know, that we've had, we've had this issue now for 3040 years. So one question I would like to then just put to you, we had Cameron Norris coach ficou. Laguna is on the show. And what he basically said, and he said, this was the very much the, the Argentinian mentality is, if there is a will, there is a way, you know, and, and you've mentioned there that you've got friends that have that have stopped, and I don't want you to name names, and I don't want you to get into trouble. But if you if you're really, really brutally honest, those people that have stopped, because they don't have the money, or those people that have stopped because they've got a bad elbow, or those people that have stopped for these reasons that they they find justifications for is that the real, real, real reason is it because they don't quite have the will, to do what it takes,

Sonay Kartal  41:29

I'm gonna go with a bit of a bit of 5050 on that one, I think that, you know, Junior career can, you know, if you're, if you're high end of the rankings, and the junior career life can look pretty good, you know, traveling to all these nice places and getting the, you know, the nicer treatment. And then you know, you can be, you can be number one in the world in the junior rankings, but your ranking is going to be irrelevant, when you when you go to the seniors, you know, you're gonna start at zero, so you're gonna have to go the scrappy route, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to dig your way in through, you know, some not so nice countries and go to some not so nice places, and just start again, so I think there's a bit of, you know, a bit of the mental side, and not really, you know, not really having the kind of willpower to, to endure that. But then again, yeah, you know, financially, it's so tough, you know, if you, you're not just having to pay for your flights, and hotel and accommodation, you're having to pay for the training all year round, you having to pay for the physio all year round. You know, and unless you're sponsored, and you get your equipment for free, then you're not having to pay for that. So, you know, it does all compound, you know, it all adds up. And, um, you know, unfortunately, it is, it is so expensive. And unless you can have some, you know, some private funding or someone to really kind of believe in you and invest in you, then, it's, it's so tough.

Daniel Kiernan  43:05

But I guess I'm talking specifically here, the UK, and, and apologies to listeners, because I know you're listening from everywhere, and maybe you can relate this to, to your country as well. But the pandemic has been an horrific time for, for the world, you know, you know, so many people losing losing family members, going through challenges, difficulties, businesses, you know, all of these things, and we hear it all the time, it's been a very, very negative, difficult, difficult time for everybody. But I do always think that with bad times, opens up opportunity, you know, and whenever there is, through history, when we've had these, these really bad difficult moments, there is opportunities that do all come from it and grow from it. And people with your mindset will often find the opportunity in that. But it just seems to me that finally, in the UK, there's now a competition structure that enables people to stay a little closer to home, not travel so much have the opportunities to, to be to be building your bank a little bit, to then be able to go and do what you've done. And I guess without the pandemic, I'm not quite sure that these events would have would have started. So you're you've maybe got a bit more of the inside scoop as the as the current the current winner of this year's UK Pro League. Is this something that's in for the long haul? Or is this something that just came in to kind of fill a gap during during that period?

Sonay Kartal  44:50

Yeah, so you know, it started last year as the Pro Series with COVID. So, you know, that's kind of how it came up. out. And then it was the, you know, it was so appreciated by, by all of us players, and they put it on again this year. It's, it's coming along next year as well. So I think that it, you know, with, you know, I think that, you know, obviously we've all had to adapt to a new lifestyle. And, you know, with these these pro leagues with the British tours, I know that they were to have a new bonus scheme, program out, which, you know, has has helped us all massively. So I think kind of, you know, the recognition of, you know, catering for the British players during a tough time has been, you know, I have nothing but positive things to say, you know, with LCA, and with everyone that has helped out to kind of make sure that we're still, we're still ticking on and we're still, you know, we still have access to be able to play these tournaments, with with being funded a little bit.

Daniel Kiernan  46:05

Yeah, and no, like, I say that, this is not just a British thing, but it seems like that's really been done well. And I think for the tennis industry as a whole, you know, we now have done all these UTR pro events that are now popping up around Europe and in America. And that's what we need, we need it to be, you know, more and more of these of these events, which will allow people to play the sport, and go back to what you've talked about in the very beginning, you know, you've you've been able to, we can't just judge ourselves on the ranking next, our name, it's actually if you can play the sport that you love, and give your all to that sport for 510 years. And you find a way of doing that financially. Well, to me, that's what a professional tennis player is, you know, and I know, a lot of players over the years have used German League, Italian league, French league, you know, to supplement their their years, but I think we're crying out for it as a tennis industry. And it's, it's great to hear from you firsthand, as someone who's benefited from that.

Sonay Kartal  47:16

For sure, I think, you know, I think they've done an excellent job of, of making sure, you know, a wide audience of players are getting support from from COVID, you know, it's not, it's not one dimensional of, you know, if you're, you know, if your ranking is top five in the UK, then only you are being funded, you know, they've really kind of expanded the expanded the, you know, the amount of players that they're trying to help, which I think is, is, you know, such an important thing. And also, I think it's, you know, it's going to give more opportunity for, for people who haven't been able to kind of, you know, show off their performance a little bit.

Daniel Kiernan  47:56

I just want to want to take you back slightly to you you are, if I've got my dates, right, you're one of the first kind of mini tennis group to be coming through. You know, when I go back, I was working in the UK 11 years ago, you know, mini tennis was really becoming a big thing. You know, it was becoming quite dictated to, that you had to stick on Red Bull till that age, or remember, all of those things. So, so we're kind of seeing seeing you guys now come through into the professional ranks. On reflection. Are you an advocate of the mini tennis system?

Sonay Kartal  48:38

I am, I am. Yeah. You know, I went through red, orange, green and yellow. And I remember when I was that age, I think they just started bringing out I think it was something like the orange one stars and yes, all that kind of Yeah, well, that kind of stuff. But yeah, um, I think I think it helped me. It developed me, you know, different skills and, you know, taught me, you know, I think also playing in an orange court, you know, obviously, the lines are smaller, you know, you develop the skills of being able to, you know how to navigate the ball to a certain part of the court when you're when you're restricted with space. So I think there are, there are many aspects that that it can help. And yeah, I'm, you know, if if I was a coach, I would, I would recommend my play going through that, for sure. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  49:31

I just think it's interesting because we don't, it's hard to have an opinion on a system until we see someone until we start to see groups going through the full cycle of it. You know, I guess my next question on that is, do you think you would be any different as a player development wise now age 20. If you just use the yellow ball from the word goal?

Sonay Kartal  49:54

I think I think maybe, maybe skill set wise I wouldn't be as quiet as I am now. That would maybe be my only thing. So I think, you know, having different balls softer balls, you having to hit it harder, hit softer, put less spin on it, etc. So I think it's definitely given me more of an acquired skill set, I think. No,

Daniel Kiernan  50:20

I mean, I certainly I certainly wouldn't argue of that. I think it's, I think it's an interesting topic for for for people, because it's, you know, we've had probably Britain, we're one of the first countries behind Belgium and, you know, a couple of other European countries that brought this on board. I'm in Spain, they really don't believe in it in Spain. Yeah, they, they started to bring in a little bit of green ball, they might get the odd coac using orange balls, but it's not a it's not a massive thing. And I guess you're someone who's experienced that firsthand. I think it's interesting, interesting to see. But if, if the likes of Mr. yourself who the players come through from this system, and and they're gonna have big success within the sport, then it also is quite hard to argue against it.

Sonay Kartal  51:10

I think it's the same it's along the same kind of concept of do. Do you play the the tennis Europe, juniors? Or do you do? Do you go straight into kind of doing the seniors at a young age? What's your kind of intake on that?

Daniel Kiernan  51:23

I think it depends on the individual. Yeah, and I think it's the same, I think it's the same with with many tennis balls are ultimately, all that I see a mini tennis ball as is, is a tool to be used on the tennis court to develop skills to manage the player to, you know, maybe developing technical skills, I might, I might pull, if I worked with you, I don't know your game. But if you were struggling to hit through your backhand, I might pull out the red balls and say, right edge 20, we're going to do a basket of red balls on your backhand down the line, to hit through the ball, you know, to get to get to get the feeling. So I think in terms of the balls, I think it the coaches have to have to manage it. And I think the mindset is more of it being a tool. I'm not a fan of it being dictated to so strongly, because I think I think development happens in an individualized manner. And then I think, and I think that's the same with tournament schedules. You know, I think tournament schedules, you know, I don't think it's a race or a rush, you know, to, to get to where you want to get to, you know, I like I like people developing and taking their own steps. So I personally like the international exposure, because it's an international sport, you know, so I think I think going to your tennis Europe events, you get to experience, it's very similar a tennis Europe event than it is to an ITF pro circuit event in the way that it works from sign in to practice courts to, you know, how you enter the event. So I like the players gain that experience. And then my second thing is on that, I think a sense of belonging is quite important in our sport. And I think if you're rubbing shoulders with these players, the better players in Europe from an early age, when you then turn up to play events a little bit later on. As you're playing professional, it's a lot easier if you're sitting in the locker room, and you're on first name terms with the players, because you've grown up with them, and you feel like you belong with them than it is to be someone who's completely coming in from the dark. You know, I just think mentally you've got to be quite a strong character, to all of a sudden just feel like you belong at that certain event. So yeah, so I like the international exposure for sure. But it really does depend on on the on the individual and, you know, just looking at from afar, I like the way you've done it this year. I think that's I think that's a really smart way I said it earlier in the in the episode that actually getting your wins locally. And NorCal in this sense, is doing it in a in a domestic we're building your game building your confidence. And I like how you put it you know getting used to that amount of matches and seeing how your body does and then and then on you're gone and start playing that the higher level events and you know go back to when Dan Evans was on the on the show he he talked about the the British futures events at the start of the year. And he said it didn't matter about ranking but whoever had won billesley and Sheffield Hallam sheer British to us that year. They were the favourites to win the futures as well. You know, it didn't matter on the ranking because the I think there's a lot to be said for confidence and winning matches going into events. And I don't think I think there's a lot of people out there that don't schedule so smartly. They jump from tournament to tournament from Turkey to Tunisia, and they're not winning matches, they're not winning matches, you know, you need to think you'd before you go and play those events. And the same with challenges, you know, once you then move up to the higher level events, get you wins, go and win a futures, and then jump into a challenger. And then I would imagine the same at the next level as well, when your challenger before you go to your WTA. You know, and building, building your schedules like that. So I like how you've just flipped it, I feel like I'm the I feel like, I'm,

Sonay Kartal  55:37

I'm just, I'm just curious, you know, everyone's everyone's kind of opinion on that topic is slightly different. You know, some agree, some don't, some don't agree with it. So it's nice to kind of hear people's take on it,

Daniel Kiernan  55:50

and what's your take on it?

Sonay Kartal  55:53

My take on it is very similar to yours. I think, you know, if I look at it from a, from a player perspective, you know, I would, I would choose again, to do that same route, you know, it, I can talk about it for hours, I got to experience so many amazing kind of moments and achievements, and, you know, play for Great Britain and things like that, and got to experience so many cool things, because I chose that junior route. And kind of took it to, you know, I mean, I was playing the juniors until I was too old. So, you know, I got to experience some amazing things from paying it, like you said, you become accustomed to, to the way tournaments are run. And I just think that kind of you, once you're, once you're comfortable with your level, and you know, you've, you've earned your right to play at that level above you, then you can move on, I think that it's, it can be very, almost demotivating, you know, you're you choose to play the level above you, but you're losing every match, because just because you're not quite ready yet. Or you can, you know, there's no rush on it, you know, you don't have to be at a certain level of, you know, a certain age or, or anything, which then takes us back to kind of looking at numbers. And, you know, if you're telling yourself, you know, you want to be this by, by the, by whatever date it is, it can you can just have all this added stress. I think, for me playing the juniors, in kind of earning my right to then play for pay into the seniors was, was a big thing, I think. Yeah. Like I said, I think it's helpful.

Daniel Kiernan  57:38

And did you play Junior grand slams,

Sonay Kartal  57:41

I played Junior Wimbledon twice. 2018, I played just the doubles. And then the year off, I played those singles. And I was

Daniel Kiernan  57:51

because I think that's also for me, I don't understand that when players dismiss juniors, when when blatantly they're not that good. And they're probably looking for that to be a justification as why they haven't made it to junior grand slams, I just think if you a junior Grand Slam for me, is is almost a carbon copy of a Grand Slam. Well, it is yeah, it's the same facility. You know, okay, you're in different locker rooms. But the inspiration that comes from that, and Exactly, yeah, and it goes back to something that we touched on earlier, which is a big thing that I talk a lot about on the podcast, which, if you can see it, you can be it. Yeah, and, and I think just that whole thing of being around have been around that environment. It can't it can't be anything short of a complete inspiration. You know, if if someone's really that good at 1415 Go and play your grand slams, then if you've gone deep into the Grand Slam juniors, okay, and then that then move and do what you need to do on the Pro on the pro tour. But I just think the you know, you shouldn't you shouldn't miss out the steps if, if possible. And that and that brings me on to one more thing that I did want to ask you is is around US college. So in terms of in terms of someone of your age, and level at the time, you know, it it would be you I guess would be a shoo in for someone who got a US college it seems to be a strong roots. So why did you choose against that?

Sonay Kartal  59:33

Um, so I kind of, I had my mind set very early on that. I didn't want to go down that route. Just for me, you know, I think everyone is different. For me personally, I just thought that I you know, I wanted to give it my best shot as a go in the professional route. And I kind of I wanted to have that experience of You know, starting from the bottom and kind of building my way up, I kind of wanted to just go straight into it, I kind of, you know, didn't want to really go into that kind of after college and having to spend four years there, and then do it. You know, and I did have some, you know, offers from certain unis being, you know, we will accommodate your, you know, your individual goals and stuff, right, I just think, you know, with the amount of volume of matches that were being paid for the school would then wouldn't give me as much time to kind of, or as much time as I would have liked to focus on my own career. So yeah, from a very early age, I just thought, you know, personally, that I wanted to go down the professional route, and kind of give it my best shot.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:50

And any regret on that?

Sonay Kartal  1:00:52

Not at all. No,

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:54

I'm not pushing you to say that. You didn't sound happy with me. There are certainly Well, it certainly wasn't saying that you that you should have regrets. It's just, I think, I think a lot of people do it different times. But I think it's, it's another example of how assured you are about, it's something I would say a lot to players don't, don't be afraid to be a bit different. And, and that's something that really screams out at me talking to you today, which I've got so much admiration for that you're on your journey. You don't need to go somewhere, that just because someone else has, you don't need to move torches, just because someone else has. You don't need to compare yourself to someone who you used to play with, just because they've done that. And I think they are such strong traits to have. And I think the US college decision and the way you're talking about that is another fine example of that. So well done to you on that.

Sonay Kartal  1:01:59

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it was, yeah, I mean, I've had my head screwed on that professional tennis is the route I want to take from, from an early age and there was a quote, and it was like, they just like dealt the cards you're given. And I just think, you know, I'm on my own journey. I'm not looking at anybody else's. I'm very switched down heads on my own route. You know, I don't I don't compare myself to someone else. You know, I don't, I don't, you know, match myself up to anyone. I think that's, that is very important. And the kind of the way we're the reason why I've turned out the warehouse is just because my head screwed on and I'm just focusing on myself and, you know, letting other people you know, do as they please and, you know, me and my coaches are very, you know, we're very focused. And, you know, our one goal is to kind of keep me happy in tennis and be the best, you know, be the best that I can be.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:01

I just want to inject inject the do not compare myself to anybody comment into into all players globally, because it's the devil. You know, this area's Yeah, that the two things I think that are the devil in our sport, is the inability to tolerate losing. And, and I think the inability to tolerate losing comes from not having a realistic understanding of what our sport is. Because we all lose lots, we lose lots of salaries, we lose lots of matches. And then the second one is the devil this not just for players but this is as much for parents as anybody listening that once you start comparing your ear in trouble and Agama tennis parent, it is easy to do. It's easy to go Little Billy's playing 15 hours a week and my boys only playing six No wonder little bellies beaten my boy my boy needs to play 15 You know, but it's it's making sure that you have your head screwed on like some there has her head screwed on and making those those decisions. So my last thing before we go into the Quick Fire, because you've been amazing given your time. I can't believe we haven't spoken before because it's been so many amazing, fantastic insights that you've given. And you know, you're right, right at my stream of all of your philosophies, you know, so we need to we need to have a coffee together at a tournament sometime as well. But what's what is the plan look like from here, you know, you've you've got yourself to a point now where you have a platform, you know, you're gonna you're going to be getting in some men drawers I would imagine at the start of next year. Your game is obviously in a good place your body's in a good place. So what is the next 12 or 18 months look like for you?

Sonay Kartal  1:04:56

So for me, I'm going to currently on my little Right to the minute just kind of recharging myself and getting myself ready to go again and Jan, first home and back is in January 10. The LTA put on a great, I mean, to be honest, they put on a whole great year next year, there are so many British tournaments, you know, 25 K's mixed in with the pro leagues, you know, they've all interline very, very well, you know, none of them are overlapping. So there are, I think 425 K's between January and Feb mixed in with some pro leagues. So I'm going to be here playing those. And kind of, yeah, I mean, I'm my goal now is to kind of just focus on the 20 fives. You know, I've, I spoke briefly upon kind of, you know, earning your right to be there. And I've kind of, you know, I have done that with the fifteens. You know, I've proved a point. And so I'm going to look to, to do that in the 20 fives. So yeah, that's that's kind of so far I've been up on I mean, I'm not, I'm not looking to be going abroad up until March. So that will be the earliest.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:05

Okay. And just the head terms of that. And you're right. For those listening. It Out of those out of those 15 wins one loss that you've had last year on the ITF pro circuit, you dropped two sets, I believe. And the two sets that you dropped when the match that you lost. So every other match was won in straight sets. So you've done it pretty convincingly as well. Did you know that?

Sonay Kartal  1:06:35

Actually, no. You know, I, I, you know, obviously, at the back of my head, I knew I was on a good run, it was kind of the most consistently, most like good tennis consistently that I've done. Probably my whole life, to be honest with you. So I think almost that loss actually helped me. You know, the way I kind of talked earlier about losing, and like losing is so important, because you know, losing is learning. And so, kind of that that last three, it kind of made me you know that I remember that last there wasn't a final in Turkey arch. I think it was the first week and it was my that was my first ITF seniors and the three years. And I just remember, you know that one, that one kind of stung a little bit. And it was just kind of the kind of momentum kick that I needed. So for me that loss actually came at a perfect time. You know, I learned from it and kind of went again.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:37

Are you prepared for the time that you do start taking the first a few first round losses?

Sonay Kartal  1:07:42

For sure, It's, you know, mentally somehow I pride myself on I think it's one of my biggest strengths on the court as well. You know, I don't share much anger. I you know, I like to keep myself pretty composed. And you know, I realize how important losing actually is and how, you know, me losing is only going to make me better. It's going to it's going to show up the weakest the weaknesses, but I can then improve on for future matches. So yeah, I mean, obviously, obviously, you know, nobody likes losing, but I think it's it's very important and something I can handle pretty well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:23

Great way to finish before we go into the quickfire round. Are you ready?

Sonay Kartal  1:08:29

I'm ready. I'm a bit nervous. I'm lucky

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:31

enough and often serve our return. SF 400 forehand, backhand forehand, Roger Rafa. Raja, Serena or Venus, Serena? Claire quarter hardcourts Harcourts mini tennis or not many tennis injury timeout or not? Not let colds on serves or not? That cold? Yeah. Who's your favorite player?

Sonay Kartal  1:09:07

Kim Clijsters

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:12

can't let that go without mentioning that. My new performance director at the Academy has Carl Mays, who coached obviously Kim for 1011 years. So we'll have to we'll have to do a little hook up there somewhere to get you guys playing together.

Sonay Kartal  1:09:28

I actually I actually played when I was really young and many tennis. Oh, really? Yeah, it's still to this day one of my biggest achievements. I remember. I got to play a time rate with her. And obviously she was playing at her full capacity and I remember winning the tiebreaker eight seven on a net chord which is probably the reason why I prefer net Gordes rematch,

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:52

rematch. We want to I would love we want to rematch and your favorite tournament Wimbledon? What's one rule change that you would have in tennis?

Sonay Kartal  1:10:07

I'm not sure if I will thank myself for it. But I'd quite like to see the women go for five sets of grand sounds to?

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:17

Absolutely.

Sonay Kartal  1:10:18

I think, you know, I mean, I don't think I'd appreciate it but I think I think it would be. It'd be interesting. It's

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:25

It's been trialed before. That's it. Yeah, it has I remember. I remember watching Steffi Graf play maybe Monica Sellars or someone but they played, whether it was at a Grand Slam or not, but they played quite a few events. Best of five back in the Steffi Graf era, someone more knowledgeable than me listening to this will, will send in sending the details but but ya know, it has been trialed before. Yeah, and it'd be it'd be great to see it, too. Great to see it again. If we take the US Open, or we take some of the last the last few grand slams, I think the women's rivalries in the in the women's game right now is arguably becoming the most dominant of the of the of the two events at the Grand Slams. So I'm sure I'm sure people would be loving to see even even more tennis being played. So let's see, maybe maybe one day everyone else is trying to shorten the game. But you're trying to you're trying to make it longer. So let's, let's see who wins? And who should our next guest be on control the controllables Oh,

Sonay Kartal  1:11:30

you really fell on the spot here. Okay. I don't know if you've had her or not, but I'm gonna go with Lily Miyazaki. Purely because I think we touched upon it, or you did earlier about the college tennis route, I know that she took that route, and her ranking is now just outside 200 Maybe, I think that there's a bit of kind of confused, or there can be a bit of confusion about it, you know, everyone's views on college tennis is different, you know, summer, you know, you can do your four years and then do your pro route. And some are saying, you know, if, if I, if I go I'm not gonna be able to be be professional after. So I think she should be the perfect example of proof that, you know, you can go and still be, you know, 200 in the world. And I think her whole experience and kind of the route She took after college, and you know, how she managed to get herself that high. So I think it would also not be very interesting, but it would be it would be very useful as well very useful information for for teenagers that are maybe thinking that route and you know, are a bit nervous about the whole situation.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:44

Right? Well, we haven't had her on yet. And she's coached by Craig Veal. I think so. Yeah. So Craig Craig's been on and then Alexa graci off off a ferry, and desert aircraft, check who he also coaches have all been on. So I reckon between us, Craig and yourself, we'll be able to get the get the hook up there to get around in the new year, because this is, this is our last episode of 2021 Apart from our end of year episode, where we're going to review the years gonna go out the last couple of days or 2021. And it's been it's been a great way to end there, you know, to have to have you on a big thanks to Fran Jones for she talked about you at the end, you know, just as you have there with Lily, you know, and I think it's been such a lovely way to, to explore all of the all of the fascinating stories and journeys, you know, in this tennis world by asking that question at the end and, and I'm really thankful that Fran mentioned you and helped get you onto the shore because you've been absolutely brilliant. So thank you and all the very best for 2022.

Sonay Kartal  1:13:55

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been it's been nice. I'm I'm looking I've actually recently got into podcasts as well. So I'm definitely going to I know you mentioned you've got over 100 episodes, I'm gonna try and finish them off next year. You'll get through them one by one,

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:09

you're gonna need to do more traveling. You know, none of these. These stand in Britain, Britain's not going to get it done. Unless, as you're driving up the Glasgow from Brighton actually you might get you might you might get a few episodes then. But thank you so much for coming on and have a great Christmas. Thank you. And yeah, so as always another fantastic chat that I feel very lucky to have been a part of. Actually just want to start with a couple of little logistical things from that episode. I don't want to ever assume that everybody knows every last detail in the sport. And some of the names of tournaments can be a little confusing. And IETF we start with that the ITF is the International Tennis Federation, that the big governing body that kind of runs tennis so before you start getting into the ATP and WTA Yeah, which is why we've talked so much on the podcast about this, this split this difference that happens within the sport, because you then have the Grand Slams that are all also separate entities. Now, you would have also heard us talking about the UK Pro Series, which which was, which was the event that SunAir won this year in 2021. And those were the events that the LTA alongside a big private sponsor, who I don't know the name of who the private sponsor is brought together during the pandemic. And the prize money is fantastic. And what it's enabled is players within the UK, and I'm sure that foreign players can also play them. And it gives them a chance to guarantee I believe a four or 500 pounds just to turn up and be in the event. And then the winners of the event I believe went up to four or 5000 pounds. So it's been a really good way for, for people to start saving up their money before they travel. And it's a bit of a shame that it's taken a pandemic for it to happen. And the one point I do also want to make on that is, and I want to be transparent on this. I do believe that the the funding from these events, including the IETF pro circuits, where you get the ranking points, you don't get ranking points from the UK pro circuit, the UK Pro Series events is the money comes from gambling. And the money comes from selling the data of the scores to the big gambling companies, which morally isn't correct as I'm sure a lot of you listening won't believe in that. I certainly don't myself, however, we are at the stage within the sport that they've got to find. Where's the funding and that seems to be where the demand is. So hopefully that's a little bit of interest. Hopefully, I'm bored to many of you. Because I do have Vicki next to me. I know I missed you on the last episode so great to have you back. It's near cartel.

Victoria Kiernan  1:17:05

It's great to be back although I got the short straw because it was me who was at home while you got to do all the all the lovely traveling.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:12

If you think looking after, here we go 710 to 13 year olds is classed as lonely. I'll

Victoria Kiernan  1:17:21

Swap you our three those in a trip away any day of the week. Deal. Sanae it's hard to believe she's 20.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:32

She is was it was incredible. I think I I think I said it three or four times and sorry if I repeated myself, but it was just I just kept on going really Are you are you really saying that age 20 just spoken with such an assured confident way. Very wise, very wise, you know, almost, you know, imagine her coming towards the end of her career and sharing these these stories. And I think the interesting thing Actually, it'd be great to get her on in 678 years time and see if she's got the same opinions. Because I guess the and please do this the right way. Listen, if you're listening, the cynic in me says she's not quite gone through the tennis jurnee bit yet that that the real suffering of doing week after week, month after month, year after year, and not quite getting the results that you want to get. And you know, really I really hope and listening to her speak. I hope she can make her way through the levels. She certainly has her head screwed on. But I think the challenge comes a little bit later when you get to that point where you are struggling you lose confidence. Your finances are in in a bit of a difficult place. And I hope that doesn't come to her but I think it'd be interesting if she's able to apply those fantastic theoretical things that she said

Victoria Kiernan  1:18:59

interesting Mr. Positive with with a cynical outlook for ones that's usually me. She's certainly very confident, isn't it? She said she was very shy as a kid and he or she was throwing questions back to you on the episode.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:14

Yes, she was and look, I really don't want that to come out as a negative. I think it's just I could sit here and wax lyrical about sunny for the next 510 minutes and and I don't think that's necessarily the conversations that that you want to hear. I think I think we have to try and bring different slants. You know, I was blown away with Sonny. I think from the moment Fran Jones said to me, there's this girl. You need to get her on. I really admire her from afar. I was really excited to see what it was that Fran had seen because I believe from John's as standards are extremely high and certainly sincere give nothing back Amazing positive for me to take away from that chat, I think, very interesting. And an interesting topic, certainly for parents like ourselves and parents listening is almost How do you create those life lessons that, you know, she didn't go into the full detail of it. But she clearly had some challenging times when she was younger, linked to medical, medical illnesses on the side of her family. And almost she had to grow up fast. And it goes back to that word we use all the time, ownership, she had to take ownership of her tennis, she had to really push it and drive it herself. Whereas I think in the modern world, those that are living, relatively comfortable, those that have their kids in nice schools and doing nice things, how do we artificially create the environment for them to be able to do that? And that's the one that I'm going to be looking at you, Vicki to create with children. I don't know if you've got any ideas,

Victoria Kiernan  1:21:03

you can definitely hear the maturity, can't you in the way that she speaks? That isn't normal for a 20 year old tennis player?

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:13

No, no. And also, I think the perspective, the perspective that she's got, and, you know, she became, if you go through the journey had had those challenges, had a lot of injuries herself, took six months out. And I think, again, a big word that we talk about his perspective, she's 20 years old, she's taken six months out, she's been injured for 12 or 18 months, she's had illnesses within the family, yet, she's still just starting, you know, and it's, it's she's got herself to this point where all of these amazing life skills, mental skills and tennis skills have been developed. Yet you go in clubs around the world, and people are panicking, that the nine year old isn't able to hit a running topspin lob yet or that they're lost two matches at a weekend. And I think that's what I love about these stories as well. It just brings us back a little bit and just goes you know what, it's about the experience, you're on your own journey, you know, you're gonna experience many different things. It's really impressive that she's still with the same coaching team, you know, how many of us look at changing coaching teams are trying to change everything that we can apart from ourselves. Whereas ourselves were the most defining factor to our own success. Whereas in Keith Reynolds sent it in a couple of podcasts ago, he talked about how a Wimbledon 128 players in the men's draw 128 in the in the women's draw, and only two of them are going back to their club and coach and saying well done coach, you know, the other 254 are coming back saying well, you're not doing something right. And people will tend to then look at changing everything but themselves. Were it was really refreshing to see that Sonny has worked on herself, and and kept, kept those solid groundings and relationships in place, when I'm sure at times, it would have been easier to jump ship and start searching for something else.

Victoria Kiernan  1:23:19

Even the way she talked about losing is really impressive growth mindset. You know, I understand that losing will help me I can improve the things that will highlight the things that I need to improve on for the next matches. I also really liked the chat you guys had about mini tennis, because here in Spain, when we moved over what 2010 Certainly for the first 567 years, maybe more we had real pushback, real resistance to getting the players on to many courts and red, orange and green balls. I think we had some players leave as well because we weren't giving their children the opportunity to play with proper tennis balls. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:57

it's an emotive topic. It is an emotive topic and hopefully, you know, my opinions came through on the episode. It's, it's ultimately it's a tool, it's a tool that needs to be used at different times. You know, obviously, I'm I'm a believer in the in the mini tennis system, they've actually got blue tennis now which comes before red, because ultimately tennis is about controlling time and space. And if you can control the ball in a really small space, then it's actually easier when you go into a big space in some ways, you know, but there's certainly big big positives to it from tactical development to injury looking after the body not playing too many balls above your shoulder. We go back to that video of CNN Emma age nine.

Victoria Kiernan  1:24:44

It's amazing. I watched it again yesterday. Beautiful technique,

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:47

but also beautiful tactics that are coming into play. And they do say that Orange Bowl tennis played at a high level is the more similar in temple and also in how they're playing the game. And the number of balls that are hit in a minute, the court positions, then professional tennis. And once you go on to the big court, you actually drop the level of tennis, the ability to use your skills goes back, because your ability then is just to keep the ball in court. So I'm a big believer in it. I don't think that it shouldn't be dictated as strongly as it is, in some countries. I think coaches need to be educated and use it as a tool to develop players in the right way. And it's certainly starting to serve some of these players, we're now seeing coming through that system very well. The

Victoria Kiernan  1:25:33

points alone is impressive. But when you link that back to the players who were playing at the time, yeah, it's pretty impactful video. Tournament structures. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:42

great. I mean, I think it's something that is ran through as a theme again, throughout this podcast. You know, if we talk about the Spanish system, we talk about the Italian system that's having the correct tournament structure in place. And I think I have two main points on that is, is one, I love that son is stayed closer to home, and one made her money. So the opportunities have to be there for that, and to develop her game and learned how to win got into that habit of winning. And then once you do that, you can then use that money to jump on a plane, go and stay in a hotel or an Airbnb, and you are now better equipped to go and get a lot from that experience and 15 matches won one match lost in three events. Her first ITF pro circuit event this year, shows that there's no substitute for being prepared. And and I just think if obviously, the UK we're talking about here, but if we're able to get into a position where there is the strong, more localized tournament structures, it's just going to develop and grow our sport so much not just from players, but from opportunities for academies for coaches, for equipment, if you know more people to be involved in the sport. That's why we love French league tennis, German league tennis, which I was fortunate enough to play. And I think it's a great example. And I hope anyone from the LTM is listening. I have seen recently that the competition structure has massively developed sorts of well done to everyone concerned on that. Those that haven't seen it, check it out. They've done a great job on increasing the international possibilities in the UK. But also getting those private sponsors involved in getting these tournaments, where you can actually make some money to fund the next part of your journey. I think there's a massive part of any successful system

Victoria Kiernan  1:27:42

Sanae certainly seems fired up, isn't she for 2022. She seems excited, confident.

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:48

Absolutely. And it's going to be very interesting how she does. We're also fired up for 2022. But before then I think there's a fire to put on there's a mulled wine to pour. There's a mince pie to wheat or sound. Yeah, also several might be might be the case. But we just want to say a big thank you to all of you guys that have been listening, you know, a big, big, Merry Christmas to you all. Have a wonderful time. Please take some time to stop, reflect and enjoy. If you're fortunate enough to have family around, get your friends around you and enjoy this quiet time that we don't often get in this mad world that we live in, but continue to stay safe. As things are developing in the COVID world. We all have to stay safe and healthy. And as some of you I might see, back in the UK. I've been very fortunate to be invited to come and present it at a couple of events. So I'll be in Cornwall, I believe. I believe it's the eighth for ninth of January, as long as travel restrictions stay open. And then the LTF Cornwell have invited me and then the tennis coaches network, gently Solomon's and John Cavill. I'm very honored to be asked to also go and spend a few hours with those guys and learn from all of the coaches there and say it say a few words about what we've learned on the podcast and also here at sword or tennis academy. So looking forward to see a lot lots of you early next year. We will be back in between Christmas and New Year look out for our end of year finale, which will be our learnings from 2021 and 2022. We're aiming to be bigger, better and have many of you involved so thank you for your support or control the controllables but until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables