Talking Doubles with the 2023 US Open Doubles Champions!

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 204 of Control the Controllables and it's taking me a few weeks to bring this together. And that's down to the crazy schedules. That is the WTA and ATP and the doubles winners the US Open the men's doubles winners in Rajeev Ram and Joe Salisbury, the women's doubles winners, Gabby Dabrowski and Erin Routliffe and then the mixed doubles winners of Harri Heliovaara and Anna Danilina they all flew off to Davis Cups, the WTA events, and it was hard to tie them down. But it's even better now. Because they've had three or four weeks to reflect on what was an incredible two weeks in their lives. History was made grand slam champions were in the making. And I got a chance to sit down with them all for 15 or 20 minutes each to bring a unique podcast episode together, where they get to speak as a pair and reflect on their amazing achievements. It brought a smile to my face. It was emotional at times to hear them talk about their victories. And I hope that you will enjoy it as much as I did. And first up, we have the men's US Open 2023 champions. The third time in a row. History was made the first team in the Open Era to win three back to back us opens. Rajeev Ram and Joe Salisbury. Raj and Joe a big welcome to Control the Controllables thanks for joining me, guys. And we're three, almost four weeks on. And as we know, the tennis world, it moves so fast, you know, just talking off air they're raised about, you know, you win the event. And then you're on a flight and and the next thing you do and you're playing Davis Cup, and someone else is off to try and defend some points from the year before other people are fighting to try and make the year end. You know, some people at the law level are fighting to make ends meet. You know, it's a crazy sport. But hopefully you guys have managed to have a little bit of reflection time. And as you look back to that to that period three or four weeks ago, what are your early reflections? Raj?

Rajeev Ram 02:36

Yeah, it's it's pretty, pretty amazing when you can say you've done something that has never been done in the Open Era and tennis, right? I mean, like, it's not really, I don't mean that to sound arrogant, or conceited. But I just I feel like it's super important, especially for us to appreciate the fact that, you know, we, and all of our teams, really everyone's kind of come together and put so much work into achieve something that is incredibly hard to do. And that's sort of for me, the biggest thing is, you know, when you're in it, you're just trying to do your best focus on the next match the next point, even you know, and then when it's all over, you think about it feels like 2120 21 was so long ago, I mean, we were dealing with COVID we were dealing with all kinds of stuff the first year that we want it and now here we are a couple years later, having having not lost in three years there, it's just pretty amazing. The you know, how it's gone down? And just the fact that we were able to do it.

Daniel Kiernan  03:29

And absolutely and for for you listening, that's three times in a row US Open, you know, never been done in the Open Era in men's doubles. And how was that feeling joy when that final point is one? Certainly you know, I loved watching the video. I love sports. I'm a big fan of you guys and seeing the the elation on your on your faces, I think was enough to warm everyone's heart. But what was what was actually going through your mind at that point?

Joe Salisbury 03:59

I think I couldn't quite believe it. I think it was just, it was very emotional at the end, I think more than think for both of us more than any of the others that we've won. I'm not I'm not quite sure why but I think I think it was partly just emotionally draining the whole the whole tournament the few matches, it was kind of we played all those last three matches in a short, short period of time. We played the semis and final back to back and some Yeah, really tight, tough matches. And I think we just put so much so much into it. I think we had to we had to fight so hard especially in that final we weren't playing our best and had to really dig deep and and compete hard and just really try and find a way to get through it and get get that title. So I think we were Yeah, partly just just emotionally drained. I think we're very proud of ourselves of how we competed and everything we've done during the tournament and leading up to it. But obviously, also just enjoying that achievement and having Yeah, done it three times in a row, I think we just couldn't quite believe it. And it was just, yeah, felt really, really special.

Daniel Kiernan  05:14

And in terms of 2023, you know, if we take if we take the as I mean, nobody wants to see Ram, Salisbury anywhere near their draw. However, as the year went on, it was it was clear the results weren't what they'd been this, this happens in professional sport. Right, you know, but did that make it more special Raj, the fact that it had been a challenging year, you'd started then putting together some results on the on the US hard courts, you know, and then fear to kind of come from that position to then be able to go and do that. Did that add a little extra special spice to it?

Rajeev Ram 05:53

Um, yeah, I mean, there's definitely no question. It hasn't been our best year, you know, by kind of a long way. But I think we had reasons for that, you know, I think we dealt with some injuries. And we dealt with some, some difficult things in terms of managing that, really, and not being able to put in the kind of practice that has led us to have the results that we've had for the past few years. And so I think, as you said, we started to develop a little momentum. And for me, it was not even a momentum in the, in the match courts, although it was nice to have a good result in Canada, but it was more that like, I felt like we were able to put in day after day of good work on the practice court to feel like, you know, when we got to those difficult moments, we deserve to play well. And we deserve to give ourselves a chance. And I think, you know, that was probably the most emotional thing for me is that not not so much that obviously winning was amazing, but that we were able to compete at that level, for a lengthy amount of time for the amount of time that it took for us to get all the way through a Grand Slam. And like Joe said, we had last year matches, you know, we played the number one team in the world and the semis. And that was a good quality match, it was hard fought and then didn't play our best for a good portion of the final. But I think we were able to stick in there because we knew we would put the work in to deserve, you know, to give ourselves a chance.

Daniel Kiernan  07:06

And I think it's such a good point, it's such a good learning piece of that job as well. Because what we all tend to see is we see that we see the outcome, we see the result, we see the performance on the match court. But what we don't see is everything that goes on behind the scenes to be able to do that. So, you know, what does that look like? You know, during the Grand Slam is the work done? You know, you rock up you have what you have? Or does a Grand Slam enabled you especially given the time of it, you kind of they're almost 18 days, does it give you time to almost be able to grow into the tournament and work on your game throughout the tournament as well.

Joe Salisbury 07:47

I think it's it's definitely a bit of both. I think like you said we had a bit of a we had a good run in in Toronto and got a few few good wins felt like we kind of Yeah, played played some of our better matches of the year. So we felt like we had Yeah, starting to find our form a little bit had a bit of momentum, we spent quite a lot of time on the on the practice court during those tournaments as well. And, and yeah, felt like things were coming together a little bit. So definitely felt a bit more confident going into into the US Open. But yeah, also the it doesn't kind of stop during the tournament. And I think that's yeah, definitely something we feel like we're able to do when we're playing well, and when we've done well at some of these slams is that maybe our best tennis isn't it at the start of the tournament, but it's obviously yet two weeks long. So you've got time to keep improving things to improve, keep improving your, your level throughout the tournament. And obviously earlier in the year, that's we didn't get the chance to do that, because we didn't get through the earlier rounds. But I think that's something that we feel confident that we're going to be able to do is that if we can get through those, those first few rounds that we're going to keep raising our level throughout the tournament.

Daniel Kiernan  09:04

And on the back of that range before I move into our very quick fire at the end here. Just the scoring system suit you guys a bit more if you're saying that that almost you kind of feel sometimes you've got to get yourselves into the into the tournament i i certainly noticed from the Grand Slams this year to very different. You don't quite realize how different it is the scoring system of playing three sets suddenly not playing Sudden Death juice to the absolute shootout that happens at ATP events where you can kind of lose to anybody at any time. Because all it takes is five, five minutes of bad tennis, five minutes of bad luck. Five minutes of great tennis by the opponents. And you're in it you're in a crapshoot in a third set tie break. Does the scoring system help the more mature pairs who who like like yourself and Joe You know,

Rajeev Ram 09:58

I actually find that that Just the time, just the the length of time that it takes in the, in the regular scoring, you know, without the no add and all that is something that helps us because it gives us an opportunity to, you know, figure it out to spend a little bit more time out there to really give ourselves, you know, just a chance to play better. And sometimes, like you said, those other ones, it's not even about luck or bad play just feels like it goes so fast, and you don't really get your teeth stuck into it. And I like I really feel that way about the, sorry, the finals in the US Open this year, it was like, first set went by, but we still knew that, like they had to win a full set, you know, it wasn't going to be like a sudden death dues point that got a break or whatever it was, it was gonna be an opportunity for us to still, you know, have some some time out there on the court to get into a state where we felt like we could compete. So I actually feel like just the length of time and then I feel like one of things that we do better is that once we do find it, we're able to hold that momentum and hold that level for a bit longer. And I think that proves to be an advantage for us in the in the slams maybe that we don't necessarily have in the in the regular tournaments.

Daniel Kiernan  11:07

And what can we hope for Ram Salisbury the rest of the year, you still got lots to play for?

Joe Salisbury 11:13

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we were really happy that mean with that slam win, we're in with a really good really good shot for making sure in in a really good position for that. So yeah, we wanted to finish the year strong. I mean, we and we like brush said we haven't had had the best year before us open. So we'd like to do well at these big tournaments. We've got two more masters coming up. So yeah, we'd really like to win, win at least at least one of these and make it a really good finish to the year and obviously going back to Turin got good memories from last year. So we're going to be wanting to go back there and defend our title.

Daniel Kiernan  11:54

Well, a big big Well done boys I think there's you know, I was I was fortunate myself to be in the vicinity of you know flushing metals that day that you guys want unfortunately not on the court is my guys were playing in the mix I think that day but what I what I what I did see was a lot of people happy for you. You know, and I think that's, that's testament to YouTubers guys as well. You know, I think that you know, there's sometimes people win tournaments and people put their head down and they are bloody I'll leave on the bloody you know, it very much was, you know, two good guys coming together to create history. No one will ever take that away from you. You know, that's, that's going to go down in the history books and you should be incredibly proud. All the very best for the rest of this year. A couple of little quickfire questions before we move on. Are you ready? Yes. Raj your idol when growing up.

Rajeev Ram 12:52

My first one was Boris Becker. Then my second was Pete Sampras. If you probably could have figured that one out,

Daniel Kiernan  12:58

We can figure that one out very much. And Joe

Joe Salisbury 13:04

Federer

Daniel Kiernan 13:06

next question is not a question it's a name and say what you want about this name? Rohan Bopanna

Joe Salisbury 13:14

sportsman.

Rajeev Ram 13:17

Great guy loved by everyone.

Daniel Kiernan  13:21

And that's obviously in reference to to what he did in one of the biggest moments that you have in it in a Grand Slam final to hold his hands up that the ball hit his T shirt as it passed him and you know a big big shout out he's he's a he's a great guy who we do all love but a big big shout out to Rohan. Your favorite Grand Slam victory as a pair Joe

Joe Salisbury 13:47

this recent US?

Rajeev Ram 13:49

Oh, yeah, I'd actually have to agree with you. I think this last one. For all the reasons you mentioned already.

Daniel Kiernan  13:57

And a question that you might find hard to answer, but I want you to say the first name that comes into your head. I don't want you to feel like you're insulting anybody with this answer. If you can't say each other or yourself, who was the current best men's doubles player in the world? Joe

Joe Salisbury 14:21

Current best Neal Skupski. Raj.

Rajeev Ram 14:26

My turn. Austin Krajicek

Daniel Kiernan  14:30

Patriotic punch

Rajeev Ram 14:35

I mean, he's got he's got a number one by his name. So

Daniel Kiernan  14:39

I if I and I've been around a lot this year. I would also say Austin Krajicek this year. And I would say probably number two Neal Skupski. So I'm not sure that you've gone too far away there. And one change you would make to the doubles rules, right?

Rajeev Ram 14:56

I would kind of say two changes

Daniel Kiernan  14:59

you can say Three, that's me, let's make 111 would

Rajeev Ram 15:05

be I would let people like in and out on the court of the court, so they didn't have to wait for three games because I think that's ridiculous. I think the other change I would make is I would like in the tour scoring, I actually don't mind the 10 point tiebreaker, I think it's, it's pretty good. It's pretty good entertainment. But I would I would like to play regular scoring and in the set, so two regular scoring sets and a 10 point tiebreaker for the third would be my ideal. Like,

Joe Salisbury 15:32

I'd go. I'd say no, let's. Well, I think you said that singles and doubles, but I think college

Daniel Kiernan  15:41

Yeah. I like it, boys. Thank you for your time, honestly, a massive, massive, massive well done to you and your teams once again. And all the best, all the best next few weeks. Hope to see you soon. Take care. Thank you. Thanks. Great to speak to Raj and Joe and see them as they're preparing to play in Shanghai masters 1000 events this week. And yeah, what a what a great turnaround they've had in their year, you know, look like it was going downwards. The partnership was in in not in a great place and you stick together you know you as they talked about their were able to get on to the practice court together. And yeah, look at look at what happened. You know, they managed to make the 1000 final in Toronto and then built on that to then win their third title in New York almost the the Invincibles and let's see if they can go and win for next year as well. But next, we got a chance to speak to the women's US Open 2023 champions. And this is a really special one for me because I've been fortunate the last few weeks and months to be a part of, of the team with Aaron Ratliff and Gabby to broski and to be there firsthand with them in New York, to see the trials and tribulations that go on behind the scenes. Again, another story both of them had struggled throughout the year. They again came together as a fantastic team. It was a real pleasure to spend that time and be a part of that and to see beyond the court and see them winning and the the emotions that were attached. And this is a great chat. They're such a bubbly couple together. And that comes through loud and clear as well. I'm gonna pass you over to to Gabby Dabrowski and Erin Routliffe. So Gabby and Aaron a big welcome to Control the Controllables. How you doing?

Erin Routliffe 17:44

Thank you very much.

Gaby Dabrowski  17:46

Yeah, we're good. Thanks.

Daniel Kiernan  17:47

And you're still smiling three or four weeks on? And as as I said, I've just spoke to Raj and Joe there. It's like the tennis world's a bit mental, isn't it? And I think for you too, as much as anyone else. You've gone from New York, pretty much straight to Mexico, then Mexico, to Tokyo, Tokyo to Beijing. You know, it all It all happened so fast. And it's something I don't like about the tennis world actually, it's a really difficult it's difficult to enjoy the successes in the moment, because the next thing comes along so fast. But speaking to your three or four weeks on Aaron, what's your reflections on that crazy fortnight in New York that ended with you being the US Open champions?

Erin Routliffe 18:35

Yeah, I think it's still quite hard to put into words I think it was a bit surreal. Now I think like you said, like going and playing you know, pretty quick after you kind of make puts it into perspective in the sense of like, you got to just keep going keep fighting. But yeah, that it was an incredible two weeks that I'll remember for the rest of my life. 100% It was amazing.

Daniel Kiernan  18:58

On Gabby, have you been able to enjoy it at all?

Gaby Dabrowski  19:01

I'm not too much. I celebrated a little bit after the Guadalajara final, actually before flying to Tokyo so that maybe counts kind of as a small celebration that includes the result in Guadalajara and the result at the US Open but no it was a really quick turnaround haven't really been able to switch off and enjoy properly but you know, the end of season is coming soon. We've got a final push so I'll celebrate later it's fine.

Daniel Kiernan  19:33

And when you're reflective we go into a little bit more detail. Now obviously I was there with you so I have my own reflections on it as well but first round you are sat down. Second round three all love 40 Down in the third quarter final six to two love looking close to being down and out. And and then seven to down in the final set tie break You know, and I guess what it brings to me, Aaron is the question of, of success, you know, and success and failure is so close in how we perceive it, if we if our success measure is winning, then and our failure measure is losing, then we're always in this kind of strange place where we're never that far away. So, as you reflect back to those moments were, as you went through was that was there a moment where you thought, shit, we're done here? Was there a moment where you thought, this is going to be our year? We're gonna keep on going? Or we're just living that moment?

Erin Routliffe 20:43

I think there might have been, I think there was a few thoughts of like, oh, shit, we're done here. Kinda I think. Just because like, they're, you know, like you said, I mean, seven to in the quarters. Like, that was like a year, kind of, I don't want to say down now, obviously, because we ended up winning the match, but it felt like it was, you know, the end of it would still would have been a really good, you know, result for us. And no, I don't, I haven't, people have asked me if I've like, let myself if I let myself think like, oh, this is our year to win or like, think about winning the US Open. And I realistically, like never ever thought that until it was like step five 340 15 in the finals, like until match points happen. That's when I was like, okay, like, that's when the moment kind of got to me, or like, that's when I thought it. But until then I never really thought it I was just like staying in the moment. You know, being there with Gabby and just trying to fight the best that I could and best that we could together basically.

Daniel Kiernan  21:45

And if you get to that point, Gaby where you're thinking we could win the US Open title here. How do you even swing the tennis racket?

Gaby Dabrowski  21:57

Well, I pretended it wasn't. I pretended the Finals was a first round match that got moved indoors on Ash there was a slot open. And because I actually experienced that before, so that didn't seem like a weird thing to me, I'd been in a position where I played a match outdoors, it rained, we got moved to ash to finish the match, or I played a full match on Ash. And so that to me felt doable. Because I'd been there before. And so I kind of just tricked myself for a while thinking that that was the scenario versus like, Oh, I'm actually playing for a Grand Slam title here. You know, something that's something that I've wanted for a really long time. Because otherwise, I think I would have gotten my own way too much.

Daniel Kiernan  22:39

But somebody's listening, going. Yeah, but I try and do that. But then there's this little bloody voices that are monkey jumps up and goes, No, it's not. No, it's not. This is a Grand Slam final, you're playing for a Grand Slam final don't screw it up. So how? So how do you stop that voice? Or how do you tolerate that voice if it does appear?

Gaby Dabrowski  23:00

In that match, I do remember thinking a lot about intentionality. And well, actually, in all of our matches, I would say even when we were struggling, it was kind of like we kind of knew why I would say and so in the finals, it was like, hey, if we lost a point, it felt like pretty clear why we lost it or when we want to point it was quite clear why we want it and how we made our opponents uncomfortable that day. And I think we had a really good game plan going into that match. And I feel like we both stuck to it as as best as we could. And I think that's what helped us stay present. throughout everything. There was a little moment where when I fell, I wasn't really sure what was going on for about 10 minutes afterward. But luckily, Aaron carried me. And then we won that first set because Have we lost that first set? Who knows what would have happened

Daniel Kiernan  23:50

It that luckily it was it was indoors at Ashe because that lob on set point. I think it would have hit the moon. I think it would have hit the moon. If it was outdoors, it would have hit the moon if it was in a normal indoor court. It definitely would have hit the roof and I've never seen such a high lob in all my life and it was like just watching it and then there was that moment. Oh my god, she's gonna smash it. She's not gonna bounce. And describe that moment Erin.

Erin Routliffe 24:19

Yeah, I don't I've never had a lot of that. Hi ever and I think you'll like between the two of us. It's normally Gabby lobbing so I think maybe well, she had a really high log to me. And I think it was like a spike thing. Maybe I were like, I was just like, Fine, I'll do it better. And I'll just like love it higher. And then she ended up like missing and I was like, Oh, that works.

Daniel Kiernan  24:42

Because it was what but I as you saw me and Bruce and Bruce is Aaron's coach to you listening. We jumped on the court like little children when we got a chance to hit on Arthur Ashe. The couple of days managed to get on the court before and hit balls to the crowd. You know, act like immature males that we that we maybe are. But it was, when you went hit a smash, I remember thinking or even a serve, there's such a kind of explosion of like, sensory overload that was happening at the top of ash when the when when the roof was closed? It's yeah, that's a different such a different feeling such a different environment, how we, how will you Erin, you hadn't played a match on Ashe before? How were you able to adapt to that situation? So well,

Erin Routliffe 25:34

Um, I think hitting I think, what did we hit the day before on it once that helped a lot. I really do like indoor tennis. So I was kind of like using that as a, you know, a positive because I was like, Oh, well, the roofs closed. Like, there's no wind. So I really liked that. So I just was, and when I was serving, and when I was like hitting overheads, I think, yeah, I don't actually know I was, I mean, I had a little bit of an app thing going on. So maybe I'm just trying not to, like, make that to worse. I wasn't actually thinking about the roof and everything being most. I don't actually know, I don't even think I thought about the roof being close one time, but I guess that's good.

Daniel Kiernan  26:11

That's it? That's certainly a good thing. And Gabi, I'm gonna bring you into that, that thing that I mentioned there around success and failure. And this, I guess, is a more more general. Well, it's a life thing really, isn't it? But if we bring it in into the tennis space, you know, is it is it fair, that we measure success and failure when it's when it's such? There's so many things out of our control? And I guess the margins, the margins are so small, you know, we take that that's quite a normal, Grand Slam journey. Right? You know, it's very, it's very abnormal, that someone's gone on this journey where they want straight sets. On who did it, you know, that yeah, that was that was really abnormal, you know, but it tends to be that everyone can pinpoint a match or two, that they were one or two points away from losing. But by overcoming that adversity at that time, it ends up being this record breaking, incredible, historic, historic event that happens. So how else can we measure success? If that's if that's the case,

Gaby Dabrowski  27:22

Um, I think a few different ways. Without the outcome, I think you can measure success by the effort that you gave on that day. And I also think effort looks a little different day to day, it's not always going to be the exact same outcome, and what looks like best efforts to other people. But I think you know, inside when you've done it, so I think that's one benchmark for yourself on how to measure it. I think another one can be your commitment to a game plan, and your intentionality and see how the execution goes. And I think that's, that's been one thing that's helped me a lot the last few years, I would say, and why I think some of the results that I've had that were a little bit more consistent is those weeks, I was very committed to the process to the game plan, regardless of the score, regardless of the opponents. What else can you good measure? Mm hmm. Do you have any ideas?

Erin Routliffe 28:23

No, I think the doing the, like the game plan the process, like you said, like having the intention, like if you get off the court, and you're like, you know, I stuck to the game plan, I really committed to it every single point. And like, I think, for us, we're playing, you know, the best players in the world every single week. So sometimes they're gonna wake up, and they're just gonna, you know, play really, really well. And we can also play really, really well, but we can still lose. And I think, I mean, a turning point in my career was like, when I got better at losing, like, you just had to find the positives in it. And, you know, ultimately, we're losing every single week. So you kind of have to get good at it. But not too good at it that you're comfortable doing. Yeah, yeah, it's

Daniel Kiernan  29:03

Not easy. No, it's no. And so some nice lessons, I think there for a lot of young young players or coaches that are listening to it, you know, I think, you know, having having those processes that are in place is is vitally important and understanding that, you know, sometimes you have done everything right. But you didn't quite win on that day, you know, but you're giving yourself the best possible opportunity. And, and I know we've, we've talked about the final and the incredible, the incredible achievement, it really is. And I think at this point, I also I still haven't had a double checked, but I was told that you were the first women's doubles team and 23 years that are both doubles players. You know that and, you know, somebody also told me six months ago that women's doubles players together, don't win grand slams, you know, there's always at least one One singles plan. I think that that is an inspiration for so many, I think you've kind of paved the way for sort for so many people. But why do you think, Gabby that? That has been the case? And like I said, I'm not factual on that. But it's certainly when I look back over a few years, it has been the case, why do you think in women's doubles? That's tended to be a single, at least one singles player, whereas men's doubles? It hasn't been? And then my second part to that question, is how you as a team countered that and created that historic moment as well.

Gaby Dabrowski  30:39

Well, I would say, there have been moments where a lot of really great predominantly doubles teams have come very close to the title of being, you know, women's doubles, Grand Slam champion, there's a little bit of a difference. I think, with men's doubles, and women's doubles, though, I think men's doubles, the points tend to be a little bit shorter. And so that might favor doubles teams that can get the point done and you know, 234 shots or less, just because there's a little bit more power, I feel like, yeah, they have a better wingspan at the net, so they just catch more volleys and the points and faster whereas in women's doubles, you know, we just don't have like that same physicality and presence so that the rallies tend to go a little bit longer, I would say on average, and because of that, usually when rallies go longer, it tends to favor, you know, beautiful grounds. strokers. So then I think, yeah, it makes sense that at least one predominantly singles player would have won a Grand Slam for that many years.

Daniel Kiernan  31:45

Did I hear you say, but we are working on having that presence.

Gaby Dabrowski  31:50

Did I know but yes, we are? I mean, well, that's what was gonna come to my second point, which was your second question, which is what we have done to have success. And I think that, in particular, at the US Open, we had great net presence, and we had great play calling. And we had a great team supporting us when, you know, we really needed you guys to to help us find clarity and some moments that we've never experienced before on a tennis court. So I think we kind of were able to cover all our bases, in terms of maximizing our strengths and opposing the best parts of our games, as well as, you know, really having a very good team atmosphere, which helped pulled us through the toughest moments, regardless of whatever the game plan was. So I think we kind of had like the full package, in particular for that tournament. And, and luckily, it paid off for us

Daniel Kiernan  32:44

A really good answer. And I think, Aaron, the one thing I'd then like to ask you, you go for and I think I believe you were 60 in the world and 25 sort of rankings going in low expectations, you know, a dangerous team, you know, both of you, a great doubles players, and have got a great reputation for being top doubles players, but probably didn't go in expecting to be winning the US Open, you know, but we're able to really settle into then really committing to the process, you then come out the other end as US Open champions target on the back, all of a sudden, people have seen you play a little bit more as a team, you know, you would have had a lot of people watching those matches, understanding maybe a little bit more strengths, weaknesses, how to play against you. There's a word that fascinates me in tennis, and it's expectation. And I think that's the devil. I really do. I think it's, it's the it's a word that I Yeah, winds me up when I hear it, you know, people even using it in the wrong terminology because I think there's a big difference between a standard and an expectation. You know, we should set high standards, but expectations if they get too high, it can cause a problem. So how, how are you now looking to manage that? You know, I know you've played three events since had more success, which is arguably as impressive if not more impressive, to them back it up and go make a fine level 1000 event come very close to winning that then you've had a couple of of close tough losses. Where does that now leave you and how are you now going to manage that expectation of being a Grand Slam champion?

Erin Routliffe 34:27

Yeah, I think um, to be honest, these are all feelings that I'm and I think we are obviously navigating kind of for the first time I totally agree you in like expectations if you have them too high, like that's never a good thing. I always I think I've played my best tennis in my career, like having really low expectations. And that's not saying that I don't expect like really good and positive things out of myself. It's more just that's how I stick to like being process oriented rather than and worrying about the outcome. And yeah, I mean, there's probably like a little bit more target on our back, but also like that these are all good problems to have at the end of the day, like pressure is a privilege. And I think that that's just something that yeah, we need to remember. And I think we're excited. Obviously, the last two tournaments have been tough. It's feels like it's been Go, go go, like ever since the US Open, like Gabby said at the beginning, but I mean, yeah, like I said, these are all like good problems, quotation marks to have. So we're just like, really excited. We're going to play another tournament next week. And yeah, I think we're just really excited to get going again, and yeah, good stuff.

Daniel Kiernan  35:42

And then you mentioned that GAVI in your eyes lit up. When you talked about offseason it's it's not a million miles away. You know, that was the biggest smile of the day. And only tennis players and tennis people know that, you know, because it's, it's brutal, right? And even the offseason isn't very long, you know, you really I know you've potentially got Billie Jean King Cup finals as well, you know, on the the offseason then becomes a two three week, if you're lucky to be able to have that. But I'm sure one of the plans is to sleep. And it's something that is is well needed. But what are your plans for both of you and start where you can be? What are your plans going to be during the offseason period?

Gaby Dabrowski  36:28

I'm not completely finalized for the full break, but part of it, I think, will be a cruise with my mom. Last year, when we made the WTA finals, one of our gifts was a seaborne cruise, which is an incredible gift. And they want us to use it and 2023 and so, of course, you know, offseason is really the only time to be able to do that and enjoy it properly. And yeah, so that'll be that'll be in November towards the end of November. Yeah. And my mom and I were really excited. She likes she likes cruises, and I've never been on one so it'll be an adventure.

Daniel Kiernan  37:05

They're brilliant. I didn't know that I that I liked them. I was a cruise. I'll just feel sick the whole time. But we've taken we've taken the kids on it on a couple in the last few years and amazing. You don't know you're on a boat. Unlimited entertainment. Fantastic. And then you get to see lots of different places. And what about yourself, Erin?

Erin Routliffe 37:27

Yeah, not sure yet. Definitely spend some time at home with my family in Toronto probably go to my apartment in Montreal. And then yeah, tentative plan would be to head to New Zealand probably like middle December. like I normally do. But yeah, that's for the off weeks. I don't really know. Like you said sleep. Eat well

Daniel Kiernan  37:50

find your favorite cookie shop. I have to share this story. I mean, I've I've never been involved in Grand Slam winning, winning titles and to be involved in two during the weekend. And I thought if that happened, there's gonna be some monster parties happening. You know, if you win a Grand Slam. There's gonna be some serious parties. Harry and Anna won. We were halfway through the first glass of champagne at Flushing Meadows now reset right? I've got to go off off to get a flight. All right. Okay, that's not what I've done. That's not one done. And then obviously we went out very nice. Very nice meal. And, and you guys wanted to go and get a cookie in some like streets in New York, which was next to the marijuana shop. I've got guys US Open champion celebrating at the cookie shop next to the marijuana shop either which we didn't go in by the way. Is it? No. Not not quite the glamour life but hey, it good cookies a good cookie, I guess.

Erin Routliffe 39:05

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were so exhausted. It's hard to party when you're that.

Gaby Dabrowski  39:10

Yeah, it wasn't a vain but it was I wasn't.

Daniel Kiernan  39:12

Sure. And I'll quick fire around that we always do here on control the controllables a few very short, sharp questions. You have to go the answer. Don't play it safe. Get off the fence. You cannot name each other or yourself in the first question. Who was the current best woman's doubles player in the world? Aaron?

Erin Routliffe 39:41

I would say Elise Mertens, she just became world number one. So

Gaby Dabrowski  39:48

Yeah. Mertens

Gaby Dabrowski  39:53

It was so boring, but it's who we think is the best or who is ranked?

Daniel Kiernan  39:58

Who do you think is the current best women's doubles play in the world.

Gaby Dabrowski  40:02

Still Elise she's tough to play.

Erin Routliffe 40:05

I would say, Okay, I'm gonna give a I'm gonna, I'm gonna, well, I'm butchering the way how you say your name but Sue, I say, oh Sue way she the way she wants to slam her partners

Gaby Dabrowski  40:14

That's a good answer.

Daniel Kiernan  40:16

Yeah, she she deserves a mention that's for sure. What's your biggest learning from your US Open experience Gaby?

Gaby Dabrowski  40:24

Biggest learning in one sentence?

Daniel Kiernan  40:28

I can think of a perfect sentence.

Gaby Dabrowski  40:30

Yeah, I can't do you want to say?

Daniel Kiernan  40:33

You want to say

Gaby Dabrowski  40:36

Don't be a dickhead?

Daniel Kiernan  40:40

And how's that going?

Gaby Dabrowski  40:43

Well, we had a little dip. So we're back. We're back.

Daniel Kiernan  40:47

And your your biggest learning

Erin Routliffe 40:51

that Taylor Swift always gets the job done.

Gaby Dabrowski  40:56

Yeah, if someone wants us to win a match, just play Taylor Swift on the change show literally play Taylor Swift on the Change Overs and we will win.

Daniel Kiernan  41:05

Well, I learned that almost anything can be achieved if you come together as a team, you know, and that's fine. If you have the ability, that doesn't mean that like, my next door neighbor has never played tennis all of a sudden rocks up. But, you know, if you have the ability, there's there's great things can be achieved by sticking together as a team. Yeah. Sudden Death are normal. Aaron, normal, normal, normal,

Erin Routliffe 41:35

Normal. Three sets

Daniel Kiernan  41:37

Or third set, much tiebreaker. Gabby.

Gaby Dabrowski 41.40

Three full sets

Daniel Kiernan  41:43

Okay. So why?

Gaby Dabrowski  41:45

To me like, that's what tennis is. I mean, there's, there's a reason why, you know, the guys don't feel like they want to play two out of three and slams. And they want to play three to five. And there's a reason why. Like, we're hesitant to change the scoring to something shorter. It's because when you change the scoring to something shorter, it becomes more about luck, and less about skill and stamina, and really figuring out a strategy over the course of the match of how to beat your opponent. And so yeah, I'm all for the longer scoring formats. And in particular, for doubles, because it's just a crapshoot. Otherwise,

Daniel Kiernan  42:28

All fair points. And last, last question to ask, what are your goals for the rest of 2023? Erin?

Erin Routliffe 42:38

Yeah, our goal is to make the WTA finals together

Daniel Kiernan  42:43

And and what's the process goal attached to that Gaby,

Gaby Dabrowski  42:47

Stay in the moment, stick to the process. Stick together. Those are three good points.

Daniel Kiernan  42:54

Girls, you're the US Open 2023 Grand Slam champions, you know, a massive, massive congratulations from everyone at the podcast, hopefully, at some point, whether it's on your cruise, I don't know where your cruise is, but around the Caribbean, or wherever it is, as you're going from going from Toronto to Montreal, with your bag of cookies, Aaron, you'll have a little moment where you'll be able to just sit back and realize what an incredible achievement that is. And you know, keep keep building on it. But a big, big well done to your board and all the very best over the next few weeks. Thank you. And after that chat, we'd actually spoken earlier today as a team, alongside Mike Digby, who's out with the girls in Asia, who's a coach at the soccer Tennis Academy. And also Bruce, who is Aaron's coach at a great guy. And you know, we are quite a tight knit team. We speak, speak a lot. And we'd had a big team chat earlier today. And the girls had just said was some of those questions a test done, you know, we weren't sure if you were speaking to us as, as the podcast host or as, as our coach. And, you know, as ever it was it was so great to see the girls speaking so openly about about their experience. And, you know, I still think they are a little bit in shock and I can't help thinking again, this is this is the thing with tennis players their their lack of time to enjoy to reflect and it is such a relentless sport. But a big, big well done, again to Gabby and Aaron. And then lastly, we get to speak to Harry Haley Avara and Anna, Danny Lena. And again, I feel very lucky to be a part of this team, you know, been working with Harry over the last 12 months alongside Lloyd glass Paul and to be able to see what this meant to Harry and to Anna, you know, both incredibly like couple characters. They went on this, you know, we just talked about it there with with Gabby and Aaron, it's, you know, the, the margin of success and failure is just so fine at that level. And again in the first round, they ended up winning a 10 seven in the third set match against the number six seeds. And you know, that could have been it could have been no relationship ever they play one match together and move on. But now they're forever etched in the history of the US Open as the mixed doubles, 2023 champions. Really great couple. Incidentally, this was the first time they'd actually spoken to each other since the event as well. And there's there's a genuine relationship there and the law was forever have that bond. So the mixed doubles champions of 2023 At the US Open, Harri Heliovaara and Anna Danilina. So Harri and Anna big welcome to Control the Controllables. And I have to start off by asking you, you win a Grand Slam. How did you celebrate that?

Anna Danilina 46:08

Yeah, thank you for having me. Here. It's a pleasure and honor. I mean, I had a little time to celebrate I had a nice dinner with with my team and some friends in New York. I think Harry unfortunately could not join us he had to Philly for his Davis Cup matches, but so I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys advanced. So, you know, it was a great success overall. So it's pity we didn't celebrate. But yeah, it's a great result for him as well.

Harri Heliovaara 46:42

Yeah, that's true. I have to leave the maybe two hours after the match was finished. But I got a nice, nice welcome from the captain on the way home to Finland. When they're happy they produce a glass of champagne to me and my wife. So we had a very nice three poll.

Daniel Kiernan  46:59

Okay, good. Isn't that typical of the sport of tennis, you know, you have the world moves. So quicker, you know, you you're winning Grand Slam one minute, I believe Anna, you went off to San Diego to play another WTA tournament. Pretty much straightaway, Harry, you're now jumping into the pressure cooker of a Davis Cup tie. And we almost don't allow ourselves in our sport to enjoy. Enjoy the successes. So now that we're three or four weeks on Harry, you know, what is your reflection of that time, you know, a great achievement. The joy I've watched those videos and seeing the joy in both of your faces is that final ball? We're not sure who hit the ball who hit the ball.

Harri Heliovaara 47:49

There's an amazing picture of that volley where we both tried to hit it but you can see it on the picture that she hated.

Daniel Kiernan  47:56

So after Anna hit the winning shot, but what are your reflections on on that time? Your first Grand Slam title?

Harri Heliovaara 48:03

I mean, of course, what more can you ask for if you play to win? That's that that was our thing during the whole two weeks and that that probably carried us through until the end. I mean, it's it's still I'm surprised by how much attention I got at home in Finland and also it's been yeah, I've also been surprised that many of the other guys here the doubles guys on to the next door has many have come and congratulated me. But of course, at the same time, it feels nice but even if it was such a good feeling winning it that the feeling you it's easy to forget and you kind of drift into the into the other things in life maybe too quickly.

Daniel Kiernan  48:52

Ilana you you I guess both had a disappointing US Open from the standpoint of women's doubles and men's doubles. You know, both both loss relatively early in the event. Do you think that helped you guys being able to focus and come together and especially seen as before the tournament even started you didn't even know who each other were? You know, so it was that was that? Was that time period important to be able to get on the practice court and maybe on reflection looking back that it worked in your favor that you lost in the women's doubles early?

Anna Danilina 49:34

Maybe Maybe it did. Yeah, unfortunately. I mean, I got lucky with that. I started with mix. Harry had his first doubles match before I remix for me mix was the first use of a match you know, just starting with a mix. So it was good maybe for you know, like we started well, we beat a very good team will be the city team and then I went is on and played my doubles next day. And then unfortunately, I lost the day after that. So I was playing, you know, every single day. So by the time I played my second, we played our second mix. I was out of doubles already. So I could focus on mix the bit more, which is the I mean, unfortunately, but at least I could focus on my mix a bit more after that.

Daniel Kiernan  50:24

And tell us the story. Harry, we heard it on CT. I think I'm trying to think which match it was. When you first announced I think it might have been the semifinal match in the interview that they did on Louie Armstrong, you announced that you'd just met each other at the sign in desk. And you know, that kind of took off as quite a quite a strong narrative. Now, in the tennis world. I guess it's not that abnormal that mixed doubles partners come together a little bit later on. You know, I think for people outside of tennis, it's like completely bizarre. But tell us the actual story of how you guys came together to start this partnership?

Harri Heliovaara 51:03

Yeah, I think blind date is a good term for that. We I didn't know she was before. And we we both ended up in the the reference office where they have the where they have the papers to sign in for mixed doubles. And they also have the paper for people who are looking for a partner. I mean, I had been there a couple of times before checking if there were any girls looking for a partner. But then one time I went there, and she was there just writing her name there on the list and

Daniel Kiernan  51:32

to get this right. To get this right, Harry, you were just hanging out of the referees office looking for girls.

Harri Heliovaara 51:38

That's the place to meet some nice girls. No, and I'm very proud of myself. I was so brave boy. And I asked her to send a message. But I asked her Oh, he said you just wrote

Daniel Kiernan  51:54

2023?

Harri Heliovaara 51:59

Yeah, maybe I'm a little bit old fashioned in that way. But no, no, we, we had a few few words there decided, okay, let's play. Let's see if we can get in. And there we are. Winner. There's one more thing that was actually very funny. I didn't tell anyone yet. But just before the signing deadline closed, the ATP tour manager called me and said, Harry, you're on the list with two different partners

Daniel Kiernan  52:23

Two timing!

Harri Heliovaara 52:25

yes. That was very strange, because there was a misunderstanding with the with the Japanese girl that she that she had signed me in with her. But I made the right decision to stay with what he did.

Daniel Kiernan  52:43

And what's it like to be so wanted Harry?

Harri Heliovaara 52:46

Hello. Honestly, for example, French Open where I did not want to play mixed doubles. I got several several players asking me to play but now new is open. I actually wanted to play and of course, no one asked me beforehand. But that I mean, it's just how it goes sometimes that that was the maybe that was the reason that I and we are the championships here. So

Daniel Kiernan  53:10

there's some life lessons in there. For for you young guys and girls going on a night out looking for looking for love, you won't find it, you know, God go out and don't look for it and it lands, it lands on your lap. But it does open up I think quite an important point on it. Because I'm a massive, massive believer in high standards, low expectations. And I think where a lot of tennis players go wrong, as they have high expectations. And as soon as the expectations rise, then there's a lot of negative energy that potentially comes from that. And having the very fortunate position of being around you guys. You carried yourself with a low expectation way, whilst keeping your standards very high. And maybe that just meeting each other story. And at that kind of start of any relationship is is that more honeymoon period where, you know, you're maybe not allowing people in to see your flaws at that point. And you're just kind of keeping everything quite light and fluffy. On reflection, do you think that low expectation worked in your favor?

Anna Danilina 54:21

I mean, I think it did. And looking back some of my best results actually came from having low expectations at the beginning like me and Bia I mean, get through school admire when I went to Australia we also kind of sat down last moment so we had zero expectations we never played together before. It didn't work. And we I guess sometimes having less expectation like you said it worked very well and then just better maybe to concentrate on what you can do best and on your level of game and then the expectations when people come late During the results will come with you trying to, you know, play consistently at the same level that you already have.

Daniel Kiernan  55:08

Maybe you've solved the secret to success in the sport in that in that one sentence Anna, and I have to then move to the final hurry because I believe first time both playing a match on Arthur Ashe stadium and playing against the world number one men's doubles player as he was moving into that often cry check the world number one women's doubles player moving into that position, Jesper Gula, and also the world number three singles player in Jasper Gula. Both American Arthur Ashe stadium, a pretty good crowd. I mean, it's not easy to make that stadium look packed. But there was a good old good old crowd there. And I guess everything was against you. How were you able to nothing? You weren't nervous? Because I'm sure you were but both of you managed to show very little signs of nerves in your game. And you know, both came out firing. You won the match. You weren't handed the match, you know, you came up with big shots and big moments, big serves big returns wanted the ball at the net? How were you able to get into that mindset in such a big match on such a big occasion? When you hadn't experienced that before?

Harri Heliovaara 56:23

Maybe that was the key that we we didn't have a negative. We didn't have any negative thoughts from that court. We were we were probably the underdogs in that final that always helps. And I'm I heard that afterwards that for example, Austin Krajicek had never played on the on Arthur Ashe before either. So it was a new situation for him as well. With with the pressure of winning, obviously, we we also wanted to win this no denying that. For me personally, the semifinal was a helped me a lot, I felt like I felt almost more pressure in the semifinal serving for the final spot than actually serving for the title. I don't know why. But I was so confident in the final from from the from the previous matches. And yeah, we played a great match where we supported each other we we didn't do much wrong, there was maybe two or three games in second set where it could have turned around that we just kept doing the same things get kept not going ahead with our thoughts. And I think we were just a better team. I mean, I still can't believe we broke Austin Krajicek three times in that match. He's one of the best servers and you men men's doubles. I played him in Davis Cup The week after weren't even close to a break point. But there you go, sometimes

Daniel Kiernan  57:39

You didn't have Anna next to you in Davis Cup.

Harri Heliovaara 57:43

That's what I was gonna say. This is this is what I'm saying we were supporting each other, we were both playing well without without too much expectations, just going for the shots and playing to win.

Daniel Kiernan  57:55

And, Anna, when are we going to see this dream team back together?

Anna Danilina 58:02

I'm hoping in Australia, but it kind of, I guess depends on me, if I can keep my doubles ranking up. So no pressure but a little bit. I just need to keep my level up with again, maybe no expectations, but good results, if I can use good in the end of the year. And of course, Harry wants to play with me, I love to play Australia.

Harri Heliovaara 58:29

Therefore, it also depends on my results. So we we are going to do a team for team effort here before OSI open so that we make sure that we're in maybe even get a wild card.

Daniel Kiernan  58:40

Well, we've just got a Control the Controllables exclusive that you guys have made your commitment to each other. I'm going to send this to Craig Tiley in Australia and tell him hey, let's give the fans what they want regardless of whether ranking gets them in you know everyone loved following the story I know my friends at all my family but I know so many people and to see the joy on your faces and and the way that you guys just came together to gel and Bond was fantastic and I thank you for allowing me to be a small part of that as well. And it's it really is incredible and there's no reason why you can't now use that as well to build build on your doubles careers. But as is tradition at the at the podcast, we have a really quick quickfire round because we've got all of you doubles winners on we're gonna keep it really quick but first question to Harry Lloyd or Anna and to Harry men's doubles are mixed doubles.

Harri Heliovaara 59:49

Now men's doubles

Daniel Kiernan  59:51

And a women's doubles on mixed doubles.

Anna Danilina 59:56

Mixed.

Daniel Kiernan  59:58

That's the loyalty we're after. And and to you, Anna, the current in you're not allowed to say yourself the current best women's doubles player in the world in your opinion.

Anna Danilina 1:00:12

Oh, well, so hard to say. So many good ones. I don't want to offend anyone honestly, there's just so many good ones even in the top 10 or top 20. I just cannot. I just cannot pick one.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:29

Excuse me, and this is not in the contract to control the controllables to sit on the fence. I'm going to come back to you, Harry best men's doubles player in the world currently. Austin Krajicek. Back to you, Anna.

Anna Danilina 1:00:44

I will say maybe Coco Gauff.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:46

And the last question. And Harry, you can take this one first. But honor, if you disagree, then please do. Should there be WTA and ATP doubles ranking points for mixed doubles events?

Harri Heliovaara1:01:03

No, it's a different sport.

Anna Danilina 1:01:06

I guess it's Yeah, I guess I have to agree. I would love to have some points. I mean, so obviously, it would be nice. But it just because it's not that many people who can get in it, it kind of would not be very fair if they Yeah, if the points will be awarded, unfortunately. But it would be nice to get something for the win.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:26

So last last is good. So we've got $85,000. That is good. All right. Maybe no points. But you got you got some money in your pocket. But the last last question. There is people out there that say you are a Grand Slam champion, if you win the mixed doubles, and there's people out there that are very cynical and say you aren't. And it's an exhibition event, and it shouldn't count towards being a Grand Slam title. What's your thoughts on that? Anna?

Harri Heliovaara1:01:59

I mean, for me, we're playing the Grand Slam. It's called the Grand Slam. So it is a Grand Slam. And I mean, it's the same players participating in doubles. And the next for me, it feels like it's a Grand Slam title. I mean, maybe some people disagree. Of course, maybe a less pressure because there's no points. But it's also a bit more difficult. Because you basically combining men and women and it's a bit more unpredictable, I guess. So it's still best doubles players playing. So I would still say it's a title. Maybe I'm biased.

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:35

Agreed.

Harri Heliovaara 1:02:38

I agree. We we have a trophy, we have a Grand Slam winners trophy. If that that's not enough, I don't know what is

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:44

Your grand slam champions, your the US Open 2023 Mixed Doubles champions. No one will ever take that away from you both. That's a title. It's an achievement that millions and millions of people set about trying to achieve and don't achieve. So it's something whatever happens in your careers, you can be very, very proud of a big, big well done to both. Thank you for coming on. And all the very best for the rest of 2023. Thank you so much. And that's it. That's it. That's a wrap folks, we've we've managed to get all of the pairs, the winning pairs from this year's US Open. Doubles is a big passion of mine. And all there's many people that are pushing the doubles word out there. Really want to continue getting that out there. I think we need to get to know these personalities, these relationships. You know, I haven't spent a lot of time on the tour this year. I actually think Netflix is getting it wrong. You know, they should be following these doubles pairs, the relationships, the the ups, the downs, the breakups, it's like love island on steroids. You know, it really is there's so much that happens. And I think it would give an incredible, incredible insight into the world of tennis, the realities of tennis, right? It's it's not all glamour, it's not all big, big teams around the player. It's real difficult struggles and decisions and making relationships work. And in doubles, that's not so easy to do. You know, we're kind of brought up as the singles players in tennis. And when we're being when we're brought up with, we're told to be selfish and independent and look after ourselves. And then what we have is we've got these adults that have done that for 20 years. And then they told well, actually, no, now you're playing in a team. So now you've got to try and work as a team and you know, a lot of them find that very difficult to do. And it takes work. It's like it's like a marriage it really is you spending so much time together. You're reliant upon each other for so many so many areas whether it's from practice to travel to staying fit and healthy, to abstain committed to playing the number of tournaments and these doubles players play so many tournaments. It's a really interesting one. thrilled to be a part of and I'm very grateful to currently be a part of that and to be having the experiences. Hopefully I can share some of those on the podcast through these amazing guests that come on. And as ever, we will keep striving to bring you all of these amazing tennis people you know getting under the bonnet of the world of tennis at all the different areas and through all the different lenses and wishing you the best wherever you are in the world. Thank you for listening. Please keep sharing, liking, rating reviewing, getting these podcasts out far and wide. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables