Beyond the Pages: David Monkcom's Deep Dive into 'Beyond Belief'

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett. I'm thrilled to welcome David Mangum, a distinguished writer and philosopher. David's work delves into thought provoking themes, as showcased in his book Beyond Belief. His exploration of philosophy and the human experience has earned him recognition in literally circles. Join us as we dive into the depths of David's insights and discuss the profound ideas that shaped his writing. When you hear his story, believe me, you're going to want to get out. Well, you don't have to go out. You can. Nowadays, you go right online and buy his book because it's no pun intended, but it's going to blow you away. So how are you doing, David? First of all. 

David Monkcom 0:49
I'm fine, thanks. And thanks for having me on your show. 

Rich Bennett 0:52
Oh, my pleasure. So before we get into the book, I have to ask, is this the first book you've ever written? 

David Monkcom 1:00
It is. I must confess, it's the first. 

Rich Bennett 1:03
Real first. 

David Monkcom 1:03
Book I've written in my own name anyway, because I used to do writing as part of my career. But it was always on behalf of somebody else. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:13
Okay. I'm glad you said, because a lot of times, yeah, I've had authors on. They've never written before and this would be their first book. And if. But your. Your career was as a writer? 

David Monkcom 1:27
Kind of. Yeah, I, I had a mixed career. Really. I started as a teacher of languages because that was the field. Okay. And having struggled teaching high school kids to take an interest in French and Spanish for some years, I switched and I became a translator over here in Belgium. So I moved from the U.K. to. 

Rich Bennett 1:50
Berkeley. 

David Monkcom 1:51
And I worked as a translator. But that led on to other things, and I became a writer of public information material for the European Union. And speechwriting as well for some of the politicians who were kind of involved in running the show. So, yeah, so that was my background in writing. 

Rich Bennett 2:09
You were a speechwriter for politicians. 

David Monkcom 2:11
Was for a while. For a few years. 

Rich Bennett 2:14
How hard was that? 

F1 S3 2:17
Yeah, that's the whole story. 

David Monkcom 2:18
Unconnected with the book. 

F1 S3 2:19
But it was interesting. 

Rich Bennett 2:22
But that's always blown me because a lot of times people think that politicians write their own speeches. 

F1 S3 2:28
Yeah, well, some of them do. 

Rich Bennett 2:31
Some do. But. Well, let's face it, we knew there are some that. 

F1 S3 2:37
Some of them are good communicators. 

David Monkcom 2:39
I guess they just naturally know what to say. But there's people like a guy that I used to write for who was just far too busy anyway to write his own stuff. And. All right. You know, you've got to do know for them. You got to put the words together, get the ideas down. 

Rich Bennett 2:57
I have to ask you this. This is why I would never I could never be a speechwriter for a politician. Have you ever had the urge when you were writing speeches for some of these politicians to, like, throw a joke in there. 

F1 S3 3:09
All because. 

Rich Bennett 3:10
They don't read it beforehand, right? 

F1 S3 3:12
No, they do. They do. Yeah. Yeah. 

David Monkcom 3:14
It's funny. I work to take up your time by going through the whole process, but yeah, it would always, you know, take a couple of weeks from me hearing that there's an event where this guy has to speak to. Actually, yeah. Getting to the final version of the speech. So. Oh, yes, you have to go through several versions. Usually. 

F1 S3 3:33
Yeah. 

David Monkcom 3:34
I would try and putting something humorous if I could, you know, sort of either make people right, sit up and pay attention. 

F1 S3 3:41
Maybe laugh. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 3:43
See, I probably would have got fired from their job because after they read it, when it went up on the teleprompter, I probably would have made some last minute changes to it. 

F1 S3 3:51
So that was the frustrating thing. 

David Monkcom 3:53
Yeah, sometimes, yeah. Sometimes you'd labour it for a couple of weeks to make a wonderful speech and then the guy would go away and talk off the cuff and leave the script behind or make a mess. Very frustrating. 

Rich Bennett 4:06
So. Oh God, I had to be a lot of fun, though. 

David Monkcom 4:10
It was. It was very 

interesting. 

Rich Bennett 4:14
So. So what was it that made you decide to write the book Beyond Belief, then? 

David Monkcom 4:20
Yeah, so it seems a bit late in life to start writing a book, doesn't it? 

Rich Bennett 4:26
That's I guess it's not necessarily. Yeah, you're what, 45? 

David Monkcom 4:30
Oh, you're flattering me. 

F1 S3 4:34
Take a look at the wrinkles. Yeah, No, I. I'm in my early seventies. 

David Monkcom 4:40
So it's kind of late to be becoming a first time author, you might say, but, um. 

Rich Bennett 4:46
I got to disagree with you there, David. I'm sorry. I've had. I've had authors on that have not written their first book until they were in their seventies. I have a lady that's going to be coming on. She wrote her first book when she was 83. 

David Monkcom 5:02
Well, okay. Yeah, well, I haven't waited that long. 

Rich Bennett 5:05
So. 

F1 S3 5:06
Thank goodness. 

Rich Bennett 5:07
770 is the new 50. You know, that's young. 

F1 S3 5:11
So, see, you asked me why. Well, I think. 

David Monkcom 5:14
Your readers won't know this yet because you haven't mentioned it, so I must tell them that I was brought up as a kid in the UK back in the 1950s in a very fundamentalist, very strict religious organisation. They wouldn't call themselves a sect, but it was almost like that. And I think that upbringing where you had to believe certain things, you don't question things you hate certain way. There was no, you know, deviation, very little leeway in contact with people from other faiths or, you know, non-belief. Being secular people was discouraged and you had to be very careful. All that kind of upbringing left on me. Something about a mark, I guess. A scar. 

F1 S3 6:07
Mm hmm. 

David Monkcom 6:08
Emotional and mental baggage that I guess I've carried for a long time. And at a certain point, I had been thinking about it for years. But at some point I thought, Right, I'm going to get some of this off my chest. And just writing about it was a form of therapy in a way that's that motivated me to get started. And also I wanted to tell the story of my early life to my two daughters. I have two beautiful grown up daughters. They don't have any kids of their own yet, but who knows? One day and I just wanted to tell my story for them. 

F1 S3 6:42
And why don't they? 

David Monkcom 6:43
People said to me, Why did you share it with a wider audience? It sounds as if some people might be interested. So yeah, I think it could. I would hope that it will help other people out there who, like me, are trying to maybe get over the traumas of a similar kind of upbringing. And I hope above all that it can engage believers, religious people and non-believers in a conversation. That's what I really think is important, to have a rational, friendly conversation about things we believe don't believe, rather than this kind of I am right and you're wrong and you're a bad person. Yeah. So that's what the book is for. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:25
So it's like a memoir. 

David Monkcom 7:26
It's in two posts. The first part, which I call A Journey, is a memoir. Yeah, it's a memoir. Okay. A thought upbringing of mine and how I gradually got away from it, which was not an easy process mentally. But yeah, I got that. It's I, it's not a tale of woe and victimisation. It's I think it's quite an entertaining read. And then the second half of the book, which is the longer, more detail part, is a conversation I called it. It's a discussion. I see it as a discussion guide to bring people together to help talk about these things with one another, especially the subject of why we believe things. How do we know things right is the difference between believing and knowing things. When we say we believe something, how do we justify that? And are some beliefs more justified than others? And if so, I want people to start thinking about what they believe personally and how they would justify to others, but also to start listening to other people. You know, why is it that other people think differently from me? Where are they coming from? What what's the basis for what they're saying? And I think if you know, if people from different backgrounds can sit around a table and talk about these things, it's a very positive thing. It's dialogue, dialogue and not. 

Rich Bennett 8:45
Dogmatism, Right? 

David Monkcom 8:46
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:49
All right. You said you grew up in a religious sect. Now, what's the difference between, say, a religious sect and a religious cult, or is there a difference? 

David Monkcom 8:58
Well, I guess it's a matter of definition, really. A cult I see as something that is focused around the personality of some leader who who has disciples. Right. That's how I see a cult. You couldn't recall where I grew up that it was it was basically a very strict church, if you like. They wouldn't call themselves the church, but a Christian movement. It was it was called the Plymouth Brethren. You might have heard that name. I don't know, once, let's say a little bit about the set, the background. I mean, the Plymouth Brethren was a breakaway from the Church of England back in the 19th century, and the guy who founded it certain Mr. Darby, he wanted Christians to leave and stab the churches and get back to doing things like they did in the New Testament days. And so it's it was a reformist movement, if you like, though no leaders are supposed to be equal. But it was very, very based on the Bible as literally understood as containing no errors. So this is it. It's the word of God. And you have to believe it, 

right? Until I'm right that that was the basic philosophy of this of these people. 

Rich Bennett 10:18
Wow. Okay. Yeah. That with this. 

F1 S3 10:21
Book. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 10:23
Especially being your first book, how long did it actually take you to write? 

David Monkcom 10:28
Yeah, I think I had in any case, I started it on and off over the years and I put notes down and obviously given it quizzes, but in the end I got round to doing it during the lockdowns we had when COVID came along in 2020. Oh, yes, right. You know, I'm retired. Our social life isn't really happening because we're all confined. This will be a great moment to really get into writing this book. 

F1 S3 10:55
So I did do. 

Rich Bennett 10:56
Something to keep your sanity right. 

David Monkcom 10:58
And once I got going, it took it took several months of pretty, pretty concentrated work. And yeah, my, my, my wife was very glad when I finished it. 

Rich Bennett 11:11
You wrote this in months. It didn't take a year. 

F1 S3 11:14
Well. 

David Monkcom 11:16
Okay, so I guess it had an earlier version. There was an earlier version of this book, which is a lot longer and think, okay, which was the story of my early life written for my daughters. And that was packed with detail about my work and my, you know, the girlfriends I had when I was a young guy and all that sort of thing. Well, now no one else out there wants to hear about that. 

F1 S3 11:36
That's so I've whittled it down. 

I've just whittled it down to the. 

David Monkcom 11:42
To the essentials, which is to do with my religious upbringing and why it's questionable and why I hope parents who read this book will think again about the way they bring up their kids so that all of that process of of taking the long version and whittling it down, that took roughly a year, I would say. 

Rich Bennett 12:03
Okay. A couple more questions before we get into the meat of the book. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because a lot of a lot of aspiring authors, you like to hear these hear about this. You get your through publisher or you're not self-publish. Well, correct. 

David Monkcom 12:21
It's what you might call professionally assisted self-publishing. Yeah, it was. It's these publishers. 

Rich Bennett 12:27
Okay? 

David Monkcom 12:28
They say, well, look, you know, we can't take on this book and pay all the all the expenses of producing it ourselves. So we will charge you a fee, but we will do all the professional work in terms of editing, proofreading, okay. And all the whole process of distributing it. And it's. 

Rich Bennett 12:46
Yeah. Do they help you off the marketing as well? 

David Monkcom 12:48
They only help me with marketing insofar as giving me some useful addresses, some suggestions of what to do, who to contact and so on. What are the messages this contact to you actually so that we are. 

Rich Bennett 13:04
Well, it's it's funny you mention that because and I tell authors because I got we have a ton of local authors here and I always tell them get on podcast podcast are growing tremendously. And there were some study that came out actually 2023 that now people are listening to podcasts more than they are the radio and watching TV. 

And I unfortunately get a lot of local authors. They focus on their local area when it comes to promoting their book. And I help get on podcasts throughout the world because you got a book, it's on Amazon, it's a Barnes Noble, whatever. Yeah, people can buy it from anywhere. They don't have to go to the local bookstore. They can buy it from anywhere and to me, that and it's free marketing for you. 

David Monkcom 14:03
Which I yeah. 

Rich Bennett 14:05
I think to me is a lot of authors are missing and. 

David Monkcom 14:08
I know that people listen to your podcast who are not just in Harford County, you know, they're all over the place. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm not sure how wide your audience is, but I guess it's global. In fact. 

Rich Bennett 14:18
96 countries. Yeah, 96 different countries now. 

David Monkcom 14:22
So I. 

Rich Bennett 14:23
Appreciate there are some countries that will not carry it because of the explicit language, but. 

F1 S3 14:28
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 14:29
You know, but that's that's okay. You end up now do you actually because I know a lot of authors also belong to like writers groups. Do you actually belong to a writer group where they during the writing, they critique did or anything like that? 

David Monkcom 14:45
I don't know. In fact, okay, I ran the the draft. The first draft passed a small number of people that I know who I thought could give me useful feedback. And they did some of it critical and but all of it constructive. So that was my readers club if you like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A friend of mine in back in the UK where I come from was the same that friend of mine back in the UK is a member of a what's his gut. It's like a retired people's philosophy group. So they have sessions where they, they get together and talk over the big questions. And she said, oh I'll run this past my group. So that was a very useful kind of book club, if you like to, to provide feedback on the contents, you know? Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 15:33
So and this came out September of 2023, so when you went, it was published and I'm sure you got what I would hope that you got the first copy. 

F1 S3 15:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 15:44
But who was it besides yourself? Who did you have read it first? The final copy. 

David Monkcom 15:53
Of the printed copy. Yeah. Ha. I, I sent a copy to one of my friends who'd been very helpful in providing feedback on the first draft, and I made sure that a number of other people had been quite useful. That helpful to me. I'd got copies as well. My wife, bless her, didn't particularly want to read it. I think she was just very glad that I'd got the damn thing written. 

F1 S3 16:25
That it was out there. 

David Monkcom 16:27
Now we can get on with. 

F1 S3 16:28
Real life, you know. 

But I did. 

David Monkcom 16:34
Send a copy to one or two members of my family. 

F1 S3 16:39
Yeah. Hey, David, don't feel bad. My wife doesn't listen to my podcast. Okay? 

Rich Bennett 16:43
So I told her, I said I got a recording excuse. I got laundry to do. You made. 

F1 S3 16:49
All this. 

Rich Bennett 16:52
Actually. So did you get it? Did your daughters read the book? The final copy. What? 

David Monkcom 16:57
One of them. They've each got a copy. Yeah, One of them has started reading it. Yes, but she's a busy young lady with it, with a professional life, so I'm not really I'm not insisting that she necessarily reads it immediately, but her her partner bought a copy of it for himself, and apparently he reads it in the bath as a great place to read a book, half a chapter at a time when you're having a bath, maybe. 

F1 S3 17:22
I don't know. It's just hour. 

Rich Bennett 17:24
So why not? Why not 

with my log? I probably didn't of dropping the book in the bath. 

F1 S3 17:30
Yeah, well, I hope he hasn't got it. 

Rich Bennett 17:32
Now, is this also. 

David Monkcom 17:33
It's a paperback. It's not on the Kindle, so at least he's not going to electrocute himself. 

Rich Bennett 17:38
Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. Now, is it also in audio form? 

David Monkcom 17:42
No, I haven't done an audio book, but it's something I could consider. 

Rich Bennett 17:46
Yeah, I would. Yeah. Why not? Because there are a lot of people that still, even though you don't have books on tape anymore, a lot of people do listen through Audible and other things as well. So I'll so consider that. 

David Monkcom 17:59
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 18:00
Yeah. I mean I know, I know that's, I love listening to the books but I love reading books as well. 

Usually most of the books I listen to are like self-help books. Yeah. Reading. And the good thing is now with that, you said it's also available on Kindle, right? 

David Monkcom 18:19
It is, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 18:21
Are you finding more people getting the Kindle version or the actual paperback? 

David Monkcom 18:27
I haven't checked the sales figures and I'm not claiming that they're huge just yet, although I'm sure they will be after we've released your book. But I get the impression that yeah, initially anyway, more people were downloading the Kindle version than the paperback. 

Rich Bennett 18:43
Okay. 

David Monkcom 18:44
It's okay. It's a little cheaper and it's immediately available online. 

Rich Bennett 18:49
Yeah, 

because one of the things I found out, especially with the younger people today 

and it's funny, is when e-books came out, they figured that was going to be the future. That's when everybody went to read books on. But I'm seeing more. Young people want the actual book themselves and they won't get rid of it. Yeah, they'll go back and read it again. And I'm talking about novels. Usually you see that with self-help books, but no novels and stories. They're going they're keeping the book. They don't want to get rid of them, and they're going back and reading them again. It's just something. 

F1 S3 19:26
About, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 19:27
Having a physical thing and turning the page. 

David Monkcom 19:29
Like vinyl albums is that. 

F1 S3 19:32
Yeah, I owe you. I hope people. 

David Monkcom 19:36
Will actually use the paperback version or the, the on paper version, because if you're anything like, like me, when I reading a book that's making me think I like to highlight paragraphs or put a note in the margins saying, Oh, come on. But on page 43, you said something different. You know, I got to write little notes to myself in the book. And that's that's just the way some people operate. And also what I really think this book could be good for is if you've got a discussion group like I use, I don't know, our church youth group or school discussion group on these kinds of issues or in that old education class. I think it would make a very good focus for that kind of a discussion. I imagine that if people have been writing notes in the margins or, you know, taking notes on their book or reading it, it that's how I see it being used, especially you can read it on your own and just think things through. But it's also a great focus for for a group discussion. 

Rich Bennett 20:41
Educational. 

David Monkcom 20:41
Yeah, Self-education, education. 

Rich Bennett 20:43
Educational. 

F1 S3 20:45
Should be. 

David Monkcom 20:45
I mean, yeah, I know that in Harford County that's different from the way it is in maybe Brussels or London because it's not quite such a diversity of of religions and cultures. Maybe. But oh, you'd be surprised. I don't know. Yeah. 

F1 S3 21:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 21:03
UK Oh yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. Well you mentioned with your parents reading this and hopefully talking to their kids, you know, about different religions and all that. 

It's. 

Do you think that's something that's missing today where parents aren't actually talking to their kids about that. I know parents talk to them about other things. Hmm. But you don't really hear parents talking to them about that. 

David Monkcom 21:37
It's a very interesting a difficult subject, isn't it? This because one of the things that I think motivated me to to 

know is study of one of the things that I found difficult in my own life was precisely that my parents were very strong believers. And unlike most parents, that that was the main thing they would definitely talk about. They would they would take you to church, they would take you to Sunday school. They would sit down and read the Bible with you in the evening. And so it was a major subject in my early life. It was the whole focus of our lives, if you like. And I'm not I don't think that was a particularly healthy way of upbringing of the kid. As far as religion is concerned. I think parents would rather than saying, look, this is the truth, we have to truth, you've got to believe this or you'll go to hell. Basically, a far better ways to 

introduce kids to the fact that people believe different things. Different different people have different beliefs about God and about life. 

We have this particular faith that we find is important to us, but we would like you to think things through for yourself. Talk to other people who have a different background and think through, you know, what they have to say as well, and you'll come to your own conclusions. But come to us with any questions. You know, let me talk about it. That would be a much better approach, I think, than trying to, you know, to force your kid to follow a particular line. So I guess I guess it comes down to what I said earlier, a dialogue and not dogmatism, you know. 

Rich Bennett 23:27
Right. But actually, are there do you think there are some key elements 

for to make that conversation? 

F1 S3 23:36
Yeah. Oops. 

Rich Bennett 23:38
We're successful in meaningful inter-faith conversation. Well, I hope I hit my desk. Sorry about. 

F1 S3 23:43
That. 

David Monkcom 23:46
I think the natural way to do it is probably when kids you are naturally curious, want to explore issues like 

where did the world come from, you know? 

Rich Bennett 23:58
Hmm. 

David Monkcom 24:00
Is there any plan behind this? Was it designed, you know, or did it just involve it? That's one line of inquiry that interests most kids. Another line of approach is what about you say that it's 

bad to do certain things or good to do certain other things? You know, how do it how do we know what's good and bad or what's right and wrong? Do we need a book to tell us this? We need to go to church to learn this, or can we kind of work it out for ourselves in terms of doing to other people what we want them to do to us. You know, that does that kind of approach to you can help as well. I remember one thing that happened when I was a parent of a very young girl. I mean, when my family was about two and we went to a a museum here in Brussels where there was an exhibition about dinosaurs. I talk about this in the book I had in this exhibition, you saw lifesize models of these great beasts, and one of them had attacked another one. You know, there was this poor creature with no head lying on the ground, very gory scene, and the tyrannosaurus was holding this other creatures head in its mouth. And it literally looked at this scene for a moment or two. And then she turned to me and said, that's not good. So I had to immediately react. Well, no, it's certainly not good. From the point of view of the creature that's had its head bitten off. But it's very good from the point of view of the animal that's going to have a nice meal out of this. So what do we mean by saying that something is good or isn't good? You know, that's. 

F1 S3 25:32
That's. 

David Monkcom 25:33
A way into the subject. 

F1 S3 25:34
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 25:38
That when you go to the museum and see these dinosaur. 

F1 S3 25:41
Perhaps I took her when she was too young. You know. 

Rich Bennett 25:46
You 

speak, you speak to the dinosaurs fighting each other. You and in the book you cover it, I believe. But you survived a of a very close encounter of sword style. 

David Monkcom 26:02
Yeah. This was the other motorcycle. 

Rich Bennett 26:04
You talk about that. 

David Monkcom 26:06
The other reason I thought I do need to write this book is because not just of the fundamentalism that I grew up with, the Christians fundamentalism, but out there in the modern world, we have other fundamentalism. This one of them was Islamic fundamentalism, which is of course what motivates groups like ISIS and Al Qaida and so on. And the experience that you refer to is that, yeah, I was almost caught up in a terrorist attack on the Jewish subway system in Brussels in 2016. 

I wasn't like in the same train with them where the guy blew himself up and I was not far away. I was on a tram heading into the to the city. 

And if I'd left home, I don't know, quarter an hour earlier or something like that, I could have been on that train and we might not be having this conversation now. So when you when that something like that happens on your doorstep happens, you know, in the metro system just ahead of you, and the whole city sort of shuts down, everyone goes into panic mode. Yeah. They also attack the airport the same day there were two bombs went off in the airport. So it was it was a pretty major attack. I think there were 300 people injured and quite a few people dead when that happens to you and to you, but, you know, to your city and to your life, it kind of brings things. 

Rich Bennett 27:36
You know, to. 

David Monkcom 27:36
It brings it home to you. What kind of a world are we in? You know, what is it that motivates people to do that? And part of the answer goes pockets is politics. But part of it is this mentality of 

we are good guys, we know the truth, we are God's people. You're bad guys. You don't believe any of this. You are infidels. God will punish you. In effect, not any God will punish you. He's going to use us to do it. We'll we'll you know, we'll chop your heads off or we will blow you up. It's that that mentality, the I'm we're right. You're wrong. We're good, you're bad. Which of course, that's an extreme example. But it starts with this business of, you know, we go to our own churches or our own synagogues or our own mosques that we just listen to people who think like us. We have our own views reinforced in this kind of echo chamber. And society gets fragmented that way to sort of, I don't know, ghettos, echo chambers, whatever you like. And we're no longer really understanding each other. And to understand each other, we have to really sit down and talk to each other. So that's what I wanted to help achieve with the book. 

Rich Bennett 28:57
You actually advocate for grassroots conversations to tackle intolerance. Yeah. Could you elaborate on how ordinary individuals can effectively engage in these conversations in their daily lives? 

David Monkcom 29:13
It depends a little bit whether there's already some kind of dialogue groups operating in your area. 

Here in Belgium, we do have organisations in the UK as well. There's something called the Interfaith 

Interfaith Organisation, I think it's called, I forget the exact name of it now, which is a nationwide set up with local groups, but you know, in your local out in a local school or college, probably down the road from you, you can get together on a regular basis with people from say, other ethnic and religious communities. So Jewish Muslim people, Christian people and others, but it's whatever. And in some cases humanists to people who don't have a religious faith but are keen on being part of this dialogue, we'll get together either to have a conversation about what they think or to discuss in particular issues, social issues that affect that community, or they just get together to get to know one another as individuals. They might, you know, if there's a Hindu festival of light thing going on at the end of the year, which is like our Christmas, that people might go along to that and take part in it and learn more about why Hindus do this, what they believe, you know, or you can go to your local mosque at the invitation of the people there and take part in or, you know, look, look around, maybe experience what it is for a muslim person to go to the mosque of worship and then have a conversation about this so that we're no longer looking at each other as kind of strange and or odd and all these all these people that do things differently from us. You know, we gradually do have this talk. So you can if there is an organisation of that kind operating in your town or in your country, in your state, you could get involved with that. And I suggest in my book that, you know, there isn't such a thing you might even like to try and start something up yourself. Just talk to your neighbours, get together with people. Yes, but you don't know already. Knock on their door or you know, let them know that you're interested in setting up a discussion group, a dialogue group. Just get to know one another group and it could be, you know, go out to a restaurant together or have coffee together or have a drink together. People drink. And if you don't feel up. 

Rich Bennett 31:45
To doing a podcast together and do it. 

F1 S3 31:48
And if you don't. 

David Monkcom 31:49
Feel up to doing that yourself, try and find someone, maybe a local teacher, somebody who's used to being a kind of a moderator of a discussion to set this up, I would hope that I love that it's an idea that needs it needs to take off. We need more of it. 

F1 S3 32:04
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 32:06
Yeah. It's funny you mention because one of the things we once a month we have a beer bourbon barbecue group where it's a group of us guys that get together. Well, the guys were talking. They said we because we have a wide variety of conversations, whether it be politics, religion And I've always some of that. My podcast, some of the like I've had Colt survivors on and you just the different things that we talk about but I like this this idea because people could take what you just said if they have a little group like that, just take things and put it in a hat like little subjects, because a lot of times people do know how to start the conversation, pull out a topic and start talking about it, and we're going to do that. God only knows what they're going to throw in the. 

F1 S3 33:00
Hat up. 

Rich Bennett 33:02
There. You know, they want to do that and it'll be a separate podcast. If we do, they put it on here. 

F1 S3 33:09
That's history. That is a. 

David Monkcom 33:11
Great idea because just sitting around and saying, Well, I'm John or I'm David or Hello, I'm. 

F1 S3 33:17
Sam. 

David Monkcom 33:18
Okay, And then what do we talk about? But if you've got an issue, maybe it's a local issue that's come up or something to do with education or something to do with the way that the community operates or there's been trouble between local lads from one community with, you know, whatever it might be, you know, or it could be a side issue, a social issue that's in the news. It could be out in a gay marriage or it could be one out, you know, where there is a polarisation of opinion about this. That's a very good subject to try and sit down and talk about calmly. And in a friendly way. 

F1 S3 33:49
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 33:51
Well, it's got to be a friendly way because you think about, I mean with what you went through with, with that terrorist attack, you know, when people mentioned terrorism, that's all they think about the evil of it. But what is it? What is it with their beliefs, their religious beliefs? How many times do people actually talk about. 

F1 S3 34:11
That and. 

Rich Bennett 34:13
Look at that? Yeah, you know, I like I like them. 

David Monkcom 34:18
Yeah, man. Yeah. It's to be fair. It's, you know, it's it's not the first time in history that this sort of thing has happened because we in Europe, I. 

Rich Bennett 34:26
Don't know. 

David Monkcom 34:27
A thousand years ago or whatever it was centuries back, we were equally intolerant and made war on each other just for having different interpretations of Christianity, let alone, you know, from different definitions. So it's we've moved beyond that, thankfully, since the last couple of hundred years. But there's still a lot of polarisation of views out there. I mean, if you if, if you talk to a very convinced, I don't know, a very convinced evangelical as compared to someone who is a devout Catholic, he could already be quite hard to find some common ground and have a calm conversation there. So yeah, it's not an easy thing to do, but I think it's a very fruitful thing that we can do. 

Rich Bennett 35:15
As something and something that needs to be done, you know? And the other thing is too, I think people get people get conversation and debate makes up a lot of the times. People think that they're the same thing and it's not. A debate is completely different. You know, conversations are something that we need to have more of about every subject, you know, and I think especially about this with your with the book beyond belief, the first part, because it's two parts, your journey and then the conversations. But in the first part, and I want this for my listeners because I want them to get to buy a book. What was your favourite part of the first part? Your favourite part? Well, yeah, the favourite part of the first part of your book to write and why So, you know, I want you to grab my listeners Pullman and make and say, Oh, well now I definitely have to read this. 

David Monkcom 36:23
Okay. It's hard to say that I enjoyed writing one of those chapters more than another. I thought in a way I got to write a certain amount of fun out of writing the opening chapter where or to where I talk about my family and the church that they took us to, you know, that we all went to on a Sunday. And some of the slightly odd characters who were there. And the way things happen, I think listeners might find that quite fun, entertaining listeners, readers will find that quite entertaining. I think. 

Then comes the bit where I grow up and I start asking questions and 

and that was a rather harrowing experience where they kind of liberal or rational education you get in high school that you did in my day, England really clashed at all with this narrow fundamental to this way of looking at things that we had at home. That's that got difficult for me. So writing about it, I wouldn't say it was fun. It was, but it was a good way of explaining what this challenge was for a kid like me. And yeah, I suppose the other of life that comes through very clearly, clearly in the book is that my brother and I were not allowed to have girlfriends when we girls were a source of temptation and distraction from the Lord's path. And well, you can imagine what it's like if you've been deprived of having a normal emotional, growing up. You know, you try to live with it, doesn't it? So I think readers will find that interesting to read about. 

F1 S3 38:11
And all this is happening. You see, this is. 

David Monkcom 38:12
Happening at the time when, you know, rock music was taking off and rock and roll had arrived. And, you know, the Beatles came on. So there was this also a clash between, if you like, the Victorian age at home and the swinging sixties at school. So it was yeah, it's a curious time to go through all this. 

Rich Bennett 38:34
I never even thought about that. Yeah, because back then it's, you know, unlike here, you, here in the United States growing up it was all basic, yet it wasn't the Victorian air music, it was like jazz or big band. Jazz, a big band. And then rock and roll came in. 

David Monkcom 38:58
Well, I say Victorian music. I mean. 

Rich Bennett 39:00
In a way. 

David Monkcom 39:01
Yeah. Pop music was was officially banned. It helped me see it was this is all part of these things that we didn't do. We didn't go to the cinema, we didn't watch television, we didn't listen to pop music because that was wildly, you know, not what the Lord would want. So, you know, it was just classical music or religious music at home. But once, once my brother reached and he's older than me, once he reached, you know, teen age and started wanting to listen to Pop, he wasn't he wasn't accepting this band, you know. So, yeah, there were some conflicts there that also feeds into my story. 

F1 S3 39:39
Yeah. 

David Monkcom 39:40
I was curious, a curious way to grow up. 

Rich Bennett 39:47
You know what reminds me of a movie? In a way. 

David Monkcom 39:49
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:50
I don't know if you ever saw it, but the movie Footloose. 

David Monkcom 39:53
I didn't see that one. But tell me. 

Rich Bennett 39:55
Okay. Yeah. Where the. The pastor of the town. You're basically no rock and roll, no dance. And none of that was allowed. And then you had this outsider, young outsider move in a, you know, trying to get a school dance there. And they didn't want that because it's. 

David Monkcom 40:17
That that's exactly, exactly the mentality. Yeah. Which reminds me of the joke. You know what? Why, why are these strict Christians so much against sex before marriage? The answer is because it might lead to dancing. But yeah. 

Rich Bennett 40:38
Tell everybody your website and how they can get the book. 

David Monkcom 40:41
Okay. So if you Google David Monken and you have to spell my name right because it's m o in kc0m David c Malcolm You should find my website there. The book's title is Beyond Belief, so maybe if you Google two of those that the title along with my name, you'll get there. I just have a website where I introduce myself, I introduce the book and I've also got my, my email address there that if you want to contact me and I'd love to hear from any readers who'd like to get back to me with questions or comments. So, you know, you can find my my contact details there. 

And the book is available. 

F1 S3 41:24
On. 

David Monkcom 41:24
Amazon. It's available from your local Barnes and Noble or whatever. 

Rich Bennett 41:28
Yeah, 

I just realized that if your website is 

that is created. Yeah. 

F1 S3 41:38
You're like. 

Rich Bennett 41:39
Created. Yay. 

F1 S3 41:39
Good. 

Rich Bennett 41:40
So yeah. 

F1 S3 41:42
Yeah. So is dot com part. Yes, that's right. Maybe should read out the the actual URL. 

David Monkcom 41:48
What is that. 

Rich Bennett 41:49
Oh it's David Dash C dash monkey monkey dot com. Your name. 

F1 S3 41:57
So my name includes. 

David Monkcom 41:58
The dot com part. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 42:01
I just realized that. 

F1 S3 42:03
Okay. That 

sometimes that's an advantage. 

Rich Bennett 42:07
Wow. 

F1 S3 42:08
Well, you. 

Rich Bennett 42:09
You can honestly say nobody else has has a URL like that. Probably. 

So, David, before I get to my final question, is there anything well, actually, bef before I ask you to add anything, those of you listening, make sure after you read David's book, after you purchase this book and read it, that you leave a full review, whether it be on Amazon. Good reads. Yeah, wherever you want to leave a review because that's just going to help him sell more books. And it's also going to, you know, 

allow him to figure out what he's going to add in his second book. There is a second book coming, right, David? 

David Monkcom 42:54
We'll see. 

F1 S3 42:57
Yeah, well, look, once. 

David Monkcom 42:58
My idea went up, my dear wife has recovered from the from being deprived of my company for all these months, you know, and we've been and done a bit of travelling some of the stuff. 

F1 S3 43:08
There. 

David Monkcom 43:09
Maybe I'll start thinking about book number two. 

F1 S3 43:11
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 43:14
I forgot about that, sir. So leave it for review so David's wife can see how everybody loves this book and she'll probably go to him is like, What are you waiting for? You got to write another book. 

F1 S3 43:30
Thank you. Yes. Oh, a review would. 

David Monkcom 43:32
Certainly be very jot. And any feedback you want. 

Rich Bennett 43:35
Actually. Have you checked out new books network dot com? 

David Monkcom 43:40
Nope. I will do. 

Rich Bennett 43:43
Check that out. Checked it out. It's written by a gentleman who I had on podcast called Marshall Pearl, but there's a ton of different podcasts on there in all different genres of books. Find your genre, find a podcast on there, you pitch your book to that host and they'll invite you on. They get I mean, millions of listeners, not thousands. It's it's huge. So I would definitely check that out. Do you have any idea how many interviews you've done so far? 

David Monkcom 44:18
Well, I must be honest. This is number one. This is this is just the first no, this is the first podcast interview I've done. 

F1 S3 44:28
Are you serious? 

Rich Bennett 44:29
So I'm very Brian, I'm honored. Now, I. 

You've never done a podcast interview. 

David Monkcom 44:39
That's right. That's right. 

Rich Bennett 44:41
You're messing with me. 

David Monkcom 44:42
No, no, no, no. It's true. It's not the first time I've been in front of a camera and spoken about stuff because I used to do that as part of my work, but I've not actually been interviewed on a podcast before, so I'm really looking forward. 

Rich Bennett 44:57
All right. But you've been interviewed by you've been interviewed by papers and everything, right? 

David Monkcom 45:03
Well, only then. 

Rich Bennett 45:06
Rule my last question. 

F1 S3 45:07
David. No one has interviewed me about the. 

David Monkcom 45:10
Book except for yourself. Now. 

Rich Bennett 45:13
They said, okay, well, the man I don't know how I can ask this last question. 

I don't think it would be all right. I'll just let you know what the last question is. But You're not going to be able to answer it. Now. I always ask everybody at the end, out of all the interviews they've been on, is there anything a host has never asked them that they wish they would have asked them? And if they wouldn't, I can ask, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I would have asked you and said, What would be that question? What would be your answer? 

F1 S3 45:46
Yeah, I suppose you haven't. 

David Monkcom 45:47
Actually asked me. So what do I believe now after all of this journey away from fundamentalism? You told me that. And I suppose, yeah, that would be worth rounding up with. 

After all, after many years of asking myself questions and deciding that there were certain things I just couldn't believe I would, I would call myself a humanist and say, Your last question would probably be, Well, what's that then? What's humanism? I don't know if it's a term that you're familiar with or anyway, if people out there want to know what humanism is. Basically where I'm coming from nowadays it's about thinking rationally based on evidence rather than accepting a dogma. And so you have to believe that someone tells you too. So it's about that. It's about combating prejudice and ignorance. It's about focusing on life here now rather than on possible life in a life hereafter. It's about enjoying this life that we have here because it's it's the only one we're setting off. And above all, it's to me, the main thing about humanism is that we try to promote a tolerant and caring, humane society, which means that people are treated fairly and kindly with love, understanding and with them. That's the kind of society that I hope we can work towards rather than a society divided by ideologies and different religious barriers. So it's it's about it's about creating that kind of a society, helping people maybe also escape from controlling religious backgrounds and environments such as I had and if there was a motto for for what humanists believe, I would say it's think for yourself and act for everyone. Think for yourself and act for other people. 

Rich Bennett 47:50
Oh, wow. 

I like. 

David Monkcom 47:54
That. Right. 

Rich Bennett 47:57
So what led you to that? To that? To becoming a humanist, right? 

David Monkcom 48:02
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 48:03
Okay. That wasn't my last question now. 

F1 S3 48:04
But. 

David Monkcom 48:07
I realized that in the course of asking myself questions and realizing that there were no answers to these to these things that other people seem to be so sure that the main thing was to, 

to be able to, to justify what you are saying. But by looking at evidence, you know, not not prejudice, but looking at facts and sound arguments. And I realized that that 

rational approach to life is is one of the main things that the humanists focus on. I only found about that really when I went online. And I think I discovered that there was an organization called Humanists UK, a British organization that brings together people who have these these kinds of aims and outlooks, and they organize a lot of good stuff. They have online interviews and seminars, podcasts that they make little films to illustrate what humanism is all about. If you want to go online, especially if you live in the UK, of course, check out Humanists UK. And I think. 

Rich Bennett 49:18
Oh, I definitely want to check out. 

David Monkcom 49:19
Your fund. It's a fairly affiliated with other similar organizations in the States and elsewhere too. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 49:25
I yeah, I went to Wow, that's what I want to research now. I like that. 

David Monkcom 49:32
Dupe I can recommend. 

Rich Bennett 49:33
Yeah. Thanks. And any any links you could find. 

David Monkcom 49:36
Send them to me. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 49:38
Because that's, that's just that sounds so interesting and it's the way you looking now. I like the fact that you're looking out for you're looking out for yourself, but you're you want to do something that's. That's best for everyone. 

David Monkcom 49:51
Yeah. You're thinking of yourself. So don't don't take somebody else's word for it. Think things through. 

F1 S3 49:57
Yeah. 

David Monkcom 49:57
But act on behalf of other people and be a kind and considerate and constructive person who has empathy with others. 

Rich Bennett 50:09
So yes. Which is something that we need more of, without a doubt. So. Wow, David, I want to thank you so much, everybody. Again, make sure you purchase his book Beyond Belief. Leave a full review and then you know, when he contacts me again because his wife is bugging him to write a second book. 

F1 S3 50:31
That'll be the day 

where, you know. 

Rich Bennett 50:36
Look, see, here's the thing, David. All these reviews are going to lead to more book sales, which is going to make you an author preneur. And then your wife's going to be like, How come you're not working? You need to write another book. You need to sell more books. Come on, What are you waiting on? 

David Monkcom 50:52
It's been a pleasure. Thanks very much for having me on and for talking about this. And my. 

Rich Bennett 50:58
Pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you so much.