From Ukrainian Refugee Roots to Authorship with Oksana Kukurudza

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation today. I'm thrilled to introduce a very special guest, Oksana Cook, producer. Oksana is not only the managing director of Essential Air in New York, but also a beacon of inspiration being the daughter of Ukrainian refugees. Her journey from her family's humble beginnings to becoming a leader in the corporate world is nothing short of extraordinary. Oksana is also a distinguished author. Her contributions to the anthologies Going Against the Grain and Think Limitlessly have been widely acclaimed. Currently, she is working on her narrative nonfiction Sunflowers Bend, but Rarely break. I love that title. A touching exploration of her family's experiences during the tough times of World War Two and the Cold War. This book promises to offer an insightful look into the Ukrainian history and identity, a topic close to her heart. When she's not leading in the business world or penning down compelling stories, Oksana enjoys exploring the vibrant streets of Manhattan, always on the lookout for new culinary adventures and playgrounds for her young daughter. Oh, God. What? I have a funny feeling We're going to be talking about food on this episode again. 

So, everybody, please join me in welcoming Oksana, a true embodiment of resilience, heritage and leadership. How are you doing, Oksana? Right up the road. Two in New York. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:31
I am? Yup. I live right in, man. Right in Manhattan. So almost. Almost downtown, sort of between downtown Midtown. 

Rich Bennett 1:40
Now, how long have you been up there? I'm sitting up. I'm in Maryland. What is up there? 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:45
Yeah, it's a little bit up there. So I've been in Manhattan now since 2007. So. Okay, quite a while. But I am a native New Yorker from the state of New York. I was born and raised in Rochester, New York, and then I moved around quite a bit. My last stop before New York City was down south in Atlanta, Georgia. 

Rich Bennett 2:08
Wow. That's a big switch. 

Oksana Kukurudza 2:10
Yeah. Grad school brought me there and then I started and then I started working with Accenture down there. And just to be completely open and transparent. As of December 1st, I've left Accenture so I just want to make sure your list is here, that in case someone from Accenture here is it? Yeah. Yeah. So the company and I have you were I was there for almost 22 years. So the company and I have parted ways and I am looking for new adventures, so. Well, you definitely do the work part of the book project and then I'm sure there there are many other things that I'll be doing in the future. 

Rich Bennett 2:44
I was going to say Your new Adventure is the book which is going to become a movie. 

Oksana Kukurudza 2:48
I hope so. I have my finger. Oh, it will. 

Rich Bennett 2:52
It will definitely, without a doubt. Wow. So after 22 years, you left there. 

Oksana Kukurudza 2:57
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 2:58
Wow. Holy cow. Well, yeah. I mean, 

and it seems like you're seeing that more and more. 

Oksana Kukurudza 3:06
Unfortunately, it yes, there's there's a lot of a lot of that going on in terms of, you know, and it's very rare now, I would say, for someone to retire from a company that they've that they've worked at for quite a long time. And yeah, that is just been the trend for one reason or another. Right. Since gosh, probably back in the 1980s. 

Rich Bennett 3:32
Yeah. Unless you work for the government, you know. 

Oksana Kukurudza 3:36
Good point. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 3:37
Yeah. And even well I mean sometimes depending on which party government sometimes they're they're asking people to retire early. 

Oksana Kukurudza 3:47
That is true. Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 3:49
So they don't want to pay their full pension. 

Oksana Kukurudza 3:52
That's right. So remember that you remind me to update my biography. So that's why I kind of got that one out. 

Rich Bennett 4:01
Okay, so with before we get into the book and everything, I tell everybody who is Oksana, because you were it correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't born in Ukraine, right? Correct. 

Oksana Kukurudza 4:13
I was not in Ukraine. So. Okay. I am the daughter of two Ukrainian immigrants who happened to settle down in Rochester, New York, and raise 12 children, of which I am number 12. And so my parents had me very late in life. I know. I see your face. Well. Well, Jill Childress, I mean, you could write a whole book about that on its own, but that isn't the primary purpose of the book that I'm writing, though I do talk a little bit about what it's like having so many siblings 

anyway. You know, I you know, I had a pretty average kind of life in terms of growing up, the daughter of immigrants being born in the U.S. and, you know, having, you know, Ukrainian language and culture at home, but then stepping out into the bright white world of the United States and and having an American culture. And so I always felt like I had, you know, two feet in both worlds and never really belonged in either of them. I had a hefty load of cynicism and skepticism, as most European do, as well as that, you know, bunch of optimism that we Americans have that I adore so much. And so one of the things that had always been in my family that we had talked about, though my parents didn't really give us a lot of information about, was how they made it to the United States. And they they grew up in a part of Ukraine that's called western Ukraine today. That was part of Poland in between the two great wars of World War One, World War Two. And during World War Two, it was invaded by Nazi Germany and both of my parents, my mother, through propaganda and a good sales pitch, and my father through forced kidnapping and deportation, ended up in Germany in as a slave laborers, basically. And so I found out recently that my mother slaved for Volkswagen in Germany, and my father worked on a on a farm estate and in a town called the Turn in Germany or Aachen, sorry, in Germany. Right. 

Rich Bennett 6:29
And wow. 

Oksana Kukurudza 6:31
And it was interesting because they both had different experiences. I know a little bit more about my mother's experience because I interviewed her once in high school about it. And, you know, she she lived very much in slave encampments, not that much better than a concentration camp with with SS soldiers and, you know, machine guns and things to keep everybody in line. And so it was a story that we all grew up with and quite a bit of, I would say, Eastern European diaspora that came to the United States have a similar story. And after the war, those who were liberated by Americans and found, you know, nice American soldiers allowed them to become refugees and state refugee status, to be able to stay in Germany and displaced person camps. And then eventually through the it was the United States Refugee Relief Act. Right. They were able to make it in immigrate to the United States and create a home for all their children. So now all of their children are U.S. citizens. Half were born in Germany. The other half of us were born here in the United States. And, you know, my parent's legacy is of this flourishing family. And so for me, I did do different things. And I went off and became an accountant and a CPA and then a management consultant. But I always had this burning desire to write and I loved writing. And with the onset of the war in Ukraine and just seeing my parents story both on TV and in the newspapers almost every day, you know, when I think of, you know, the bombings, when I think of the internment camps, you know, we hear about these internment camps that the Russians are keeping, about how Russians are stealing Ukrainian children. I mean, the Nazis stole children to that area. And and it was just like, you know, watching or reading my parents story on TV, TV every day or in the news every day. And I felt like there's this huge component of history that we're forgetting because it's been so long since the 1940s. And I mean, people are even denying the Holocaust, you know, which is insanity. And so I just wanted to shine a light on a little known piece of history that isn't unique necessarily to Ukraine. So many people probably wouldn't know this. I was surprised and shocked when I started reading about the Nazi slave legacy was that they brought 12 to 13 million people from West Germany and Western Europe and Eastern Europe to Germany, either through propaganda, through forced deportation, kidnapping to work and the way that and it was forced labor because they weren't allowed to go home like they they had work. But the levels of salary and treatment really differed depending on your ethnicity. And so if anyone's aware of of Hitler's master race theory, where Aryans were after Germans were at the top, and then anyone with kind of similar Aryan heritage, either Scandinavian or British, you know, they were kind of treated the next best. And then Western Europeans were treated the next best. And then at the very bottom were the the Jews in the Roma who were in handicapped, who are considered parasites and not human and really set aside for extermination. Well, many people don't know is Eastern Europeans and Slavs, especially the Slavic people, were just considered one rung up from the Jews in Roma, and we were actually called subhuman, and there's a German word for it. And the purpose for subhumans were to be slaves. And so in the slave camps, Slavs in particular had very brutal experiences. I mean, not as bad as concentration camp. So I want to be careful about how I describe their experiences. But they were their salaries were about 20% and of a Western European salary or German salary. And then many of that was either taxed away or taken by the companies that they worked for to pay for their used clothing that they were offered to buy, food that constituted, you know, meager bread and watery cabbage soup and accommodations, which oftentimes included, you know, like a straw bed or something to sleep on. And so, you know, some of the research and reading that I've done, you know, state that they were lucky if they had pocket money and then oftentimes they couldn't even use their pocket money because they weren't allowed to to shop in German stores. And I remember, you know, asking my my mom to kind of tell me a bit about her story. And when we talked about payment, you know, and I asked her, well, did you get paid for your work? And she said, well, you know, she kind of laughed it off and said, well, you know, there really wasn't anything to buy. I mean, she didn't focus somehow how she was treated. So I don't know a lot of information about the discrimination that she personally had to endure. But I do know quite a bit from the research, right, that those people were not treated well. The other thing that many of us know about, if we've studied the Holocaust or even watched some of the Holocaust films, is how the Jews had to wear the star of David Patch, you know, to to signify them at all times. Well, Eastern Europeans had to do the same. So if you were Polish, you had to wear a patch with a P on it. If you were from the former Soviet Union or an Eastern European, they had a specific term for that in German called Osteo biter, which is which means Eastern worker. And for that you had to wear an O'Shea on your patch. And so even within the Slavic culture, the Germans had different hierarchies, so Poles were actually treated a little bit better than even Ukrainians, fellow Russians and Russians that would have to wear that austere patch. 

Rich Bennett 13:29
Wow. You did a lot of research. 

Oksana Kukurudza 13:33
And doing a lot of research. In fact, Rich, I'm headed off to Germany is as soon as after Christmas to do some more physical research. So to actually retrace my parents steps through their experiences that revisit those places as well as the at least the areas of the displacement camps that they stayed in after the war. 

Rich Bennett 13:59
So when you interviewed your mother, how was it hard for her to open up about that, about everything, or was she comfortable talking about it? 

Oksana Kukurudza 14:09
So 

kind of fortunately and unfortunately, when I interviewed her, I was 17 years old and I was writing a college essay paper and what kind of prompted me to ask her if she would be willing to talk about her experiences. I've always been a good student of history and really loved history. I'm not a historian by trade or anything, and I've always found that subject of World War Two very fascinating because of my parents experience as in it. And so when I asked her, I was surprised that she agreed to be interviewed because she was very close lipped about it. My father was absolutely close Lepe talked very little about that experience because I think, you know, there were probably terrible memories that they had. And they also probably felt some shame at, you know, being there, not fighting back, maybe, you know, either being duped into going as well as just their treatment. Right. I mean, yeah, it has to. I mean, I know that that had a long living effect on them, you know, basically every day of your life being told that you're less than right. 

Rich Bennett 15:30
Yeah. 

Oksana Kukurudza 15:30
And something that could easily be passed on multigenerational and trust me, has been so things that I've been dealing with all my life. And so my mother was, I would say, as open as she felt comfortable being with me. And I would say as a 17 year old who's still pretty self-absorbed and maybe to have all the right questions to ask, you know, there was a lot that I may have been able to uncover, but that maybe not because when I got to touch upon some tough subjects like, well, did you you know, you know, did you see Jews? You know, how did you feel about how they were treated? Did you try to help them? You know, when I asked you those kinds of questions, you could tell there was just, you know, pain in her face and she sort of looked that because, you know, her response to that was there wasn't anything I could do what God might do. 

Rich Bennett 16:31
You were the you were the youngest of 12. 

Oksana Kukurudza 16:33
Yes, the youngest. 

Rich Bennett 16:35
Okay. 

So actually, how old were your parents when they moved here to the States? 

Oksana Kukurudza 16:42
So my parents moved to the U.S. in 1956. So they would have been in their late, I think their late thirties. Early forties. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, late late thirties, almost early forties. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 16:56
Okay. And if you know mommy ask them when they came here too. Well I take it with 12 kids your mom was probably a stay at home mom. 

Oksana Kukurudza 17:04
She. Yes, Yes that. Yeah. That would be a very good assumption. It was only Yeah, it was only when the last couple of us were born that she went back and did, did some work because. Okay, I mean she, she also had a lot of help so she. Right. Yeah. My, my oldest sister's, you know, did a lot In fact, my oldest sister, you know, practically raised me because at that point in time, my mother was tired and working. 

Rich Bennett 17:32
Yeah. So what was it that your father was doing when he moved here? 

Oksana Kukurudza 17:38
As far as work. Yeah. So he did a lot of odd jobs to begin with when he first arrived, but his first full time job was with a company called Tobin's, which was a meat com meat packing company and. Okay butcher meat packing company in Rochester, New York. And so he learned the butchery trade. 

Rich Bennett 18:01
Oh, no, he. 

Oksana Kukurudza 18:02
Did that for about 20, 25, 25 years. And he was laid off and the meat packing company closed. And he ended up finding he was very lucky. He ended up finding work with Eastman Kodak Company for his last ten years as a janitor. And he was able to retire from Eastman Kodak Company. 

Rich Bennett 18:25
And that's a big switch. 

Oksana Kukurudza 18:26
Yeah. And then the irony of all of this, too, which is in my research, I have learned that a subsidiary of Eastman Kodak Company also used slave in concentration camp labor in Germany and headquarters in Rochester knew about it. So everything just sort of comes full circle so I could, you know, look at that company and say, Shame on you, you need a total right. But then on the other hand, you know, you did allow my father to to finish out work and retire and earn and earn a pension. It's, you know, it's it's a complex world that we live in, you know, and it's it's very, very much shades of gray. 

Rich Bennett 19:02
That's one thing I've always wanted to do, was be a butcher. 

Oksana Kukurudza 19:05
Really? 

Rich Bennett 19:06
Yeah. I just it is still to this day, it still amazes me how. How a butcher knows the right cuts to. 

Oksana Kukurudza 19:16
Make right the logo and. 

Rich Bennett 19:19
Yeah, to me it's an art. I'm lucky if I can even scale a fish, you know? I mean, really cut my steak. What was that message? 

Oksana Kukurudza 19:29
Oh, there you go. And I agree with you. I mean, one of the I mean, my my father always brought home, you know, really good meat and he always knew what to do with meat. But one of the things he became famous for later in life and in retirement was he made like the best kielbasa, which we would call. 

Rich Bennett 19:48
Cookbooks, white. 

Oksana Kukurudza 19:49
Yeah. So Polish sausage or who made a homemade wit. And he had a smoker out in his backyard and he would make it down in the basement and and everything was super homemade, super fresh. He would put a ton of spices and garlic in it. And and, you know, he used really good quality meat, very little, you know, very little like bone and fat. And so it was just super high quality, fresh, really amazing with all of that garlic taste. I mean, I had friends who was when they heard that I was, you know, getting either shipment in or going home for some sausage, They would say, okay, make sure you get some extra links and you saved me one. And this is when I was in college. 

Rich Bennett 20:34
That's something that my son's mother her was a her aunt. 

Oksana Kukurudza 20:38
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 20:39
Every Thanksgiving, we always get her and uncles for Thanksgiving. And her mother or her aunt made her make a masa. 

Oksana Kukurudza 20:47
Mm hmm. I know. It's. It's amazing. Oh. 

Rich Bennett 20:51
It is. And sure, it can knock you. The store bought stuff. 

Oksana Kukurudza 20:56
No, I know. 

Rich Bennett 20:57
I know. It's just not the same. Just not the same. It's something I miss big time. 

Oksana Kukurudza 21:03
Yeah, well, and the only thing you can get closed is if you can find, you know, Polish butcher, Ukrainian, or. And then you can go to the store. I mean, I'm very fortunate to live in Manhattan near the Ukrainian Polish community, so I can still get it. But but it's still you know, it's it's probably, you know, 80% or 85%. It's my dad's, but not not quite as good as my father's. 

Rich Bennett 21:30
So. So as the youngest daughter. Yes. Well, the youngest child. Right. 

Oksana Kukurudza 21:35
I mean the everything. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 21:38
How was he growing up? I mean, were you picked on a lot or were you the angel? You were the angel. 

Oksana Kukurudza 21:48
So I was really small and they all said I was very cute. And so all of my siblings were very, very protective of me. And so, in fact, I, I always tell people that I, I grew up with six mothers because there's six and six of us. So six girls, six boys. And I grew up with my mom, but I grew up with five other mothers. So, you know, made sure that that that I was well taken care of and even of my brothers were very protective of me as well. And in fact, I'll give you a good example of that if you want to tell me, tell you kind of a funny story. Oh, yeah. So when this is in the winter time, you know, when you when it was too cold or snowy to go outside, we would all play hide and seek down in my parents basement. And we lived in a small brick house from like the 19 tens. So super old and there were lots of my parents kept a lot of stuff in the basement, so lots of hiding spots all over the place. And because I was super little at the time, I mean, I was I have memories of it. So, you know, I must've been four years old, but I wasn't going to school yet and someone would have to hide with me like that was, you know, because I was too young to hide on my own. And I'm when I always had to hide with me. And it was always a rotation because there was always a downside of hiding with Oksana. And the downside was as soon as the Seeker was done counting and everyone was hiding, that's all the Seeker had to do was call out Oksana, where are you? And I would immediately, regardless of who was with me going to church 

over there, 

so ever head with me became the seeker and lost and so I would be rotated off to the next you know, we'll just call them sucker. 

Rich Bennett 23:56
You are not good. Hide and seek at all. 

Oksana Kukurudza 23:58
We're not at that age now. 

Rich Bennett 24:03
Oh, that is too funny. And what's the age difference from From you to the oldest? 

Oksana Kukurudza 24:09
Yeah, 25 years. So my oldest was 25 years old. I was born in Germany. Wow. 37. Yeah. In fact, he had a daughter who was almost two years older than me. So the moment I popped out, I was an aunt and aunt. 

Wow. 

Rich Bennett 24:28
Know that had that? Well, I guess when you're that young, you don't understand it. But as you started getting older and here it is, you know, other person's probably playing with you, calling you. 

Oksana Kukurudza 24:41
And I had a meeting. She didn't call me up, but we we knew our relationship from a very young age. But yeah, we were, you know, we acted more like sisters than sisters or cousins. I would say It wasn't I mean, I don't think she ever really called me on. It's been it wasn't until 

she had her own her own child and she didn't I mean, she she had her first child at 27, so it wasn't as if she was she was all that young. But it wasn't until I became a great aunt at 25 that I really realized the down age, the downside of having a having a a niece who's older than you. Yeah, that that helped me feel like a really old 25 year old. 

Oh, did. 

Rich Bennett 25:41
So well when it came to family, especially holidays. Well, just anything. Just family functions. What was it What was something that you all like to. Did we know you did Well, hide and seek. That's out because you were in Turkey. But what was something that you always looked forward to doing with the family? 

Oksana Kukurudza 26:04
Well, I think for holidays, you know, especially as the older siblings grew up and moved out of the house. So I think what was fun for holidays was just bringing everyone together. And I mean, we always had kind of a loud and boisterous house because how can, you know. 

Rich Bennett 26:23
You had. 

Oksana Kukurudza 26:23
To yell, right? But it even became louder. And so when when we got together, you know, and we still do the stretch. So my parents right away, you know, ages ago, you know, my my dad now over 20 years ago. And I think we're coming up on my mother's 

anniversary just, you know, 20 years next year. So and it would be 2025. So yeah. And about a year. And so we still all get together because for us, you know, we always have a lot of fun when we get together. So we're a big family, We're all pretty opinionated and some of us have, you know, divergent, very divergent political views and things that, you know, people say you should never talk about politics, summer holidays and we always do. And we, you know, we get into arguments, but then we'll laugh and we'll drink and we'll have fun and no one ever leaves angry. And so I would say, you know, the thing that we always looked forward to other than getting together and having, you know, Ukrainian food, which we don't always get all of the time, you know, but having this, the folks that would make all the really good stuff is, you know, just being able to get together and laugh and drink. And we even as a as a family, I mean, not all of us, because it would be too many. But, you know, there's a core group of about 10 to 12 of us that will go on vacation every year together. We stopped. Oh, yeah, we stopped during COVID because obviously no one's traveling, but we started it up again. This year and we went down the hill and had a group of ten of us. 

Rich Bennett 28:04
Oh, nice. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that about, you know, when you all get together, even talking politics. Yeah you so of you argue but you don't leave mad. And I think that's something missing from families nowadays because people don't know how to converse either or they're afraid to. It's like you need to, because this is something I've always tried to explain to the kids. They're like, Well, we don't want you telling us what we should do. And she said, Now it's called opinions. Everybody has an opinion, but that's how you learn. You talk about and that's how you learn more about it. And I think that's something that's missing for some reason. People, especially when it comes to politics and religion, people are afraid to talk about because they feel like it's a debate. And there's a difference between a debate and a conversation. 

Oksana Kukurudza 29:02
Now, I agree with you. I think the other thing is they're afraid to offend or to be offended. Yeah. And I think you need to. I think the other thing, too, is I think people believe they're further apart than they really are because you do things by text message. It's so, you know, far removed. Right. So if you converse writing things are so far removed. So it's easy to take a in extreme positions and you don't have to have a conversation right when you actually sit down with someone whom you believe. And I do this with my family all the time. You know, when we text message each other, we have very divergent views. And when we sit down and we have a conversation and we and you can't have a conversation without listening. So you have to. Yeah, exactly. You have to be open minded and then you share. And when you share your position with each other and you're able to spend the time to talk about, you know, the complexities and the deepness of why you formulate your opinion, right, or your point of view, then you actually can find things that you might agree about right. Or even come closer together about like, Oh, I hadn't thought about your position that way. And I don't, you know, not disagree with what you're saying, but here's, you know, my perspective of it. Right. And, you know, whether it's, you know, gun control or immigration or those kinds of things, you'd be surprised if you actually sit next to someone that both of you are a little more practical than maybe you would originally think you are. 

Rich Bennett 30:46
Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, whether you're a Democrat, whether you're Republican, whether you're independent, I guarantee you 

if if you take two people at the same party and sit them down and talk and give them subjects, at one point there's going to be something they disagree with. 

Oksana Kukurudza 31:08
Of course, you know. 

Rich Bennett 31:10
And anyways. 

Oksana Kukurudza 31:12
Yeah, and if you take different parties, then you're going to find things that they'll agree upon. Exact realities. Exactly. Exactly. 

Rich Bennett 31:20
Well, look how many people that go into politics end up changing their political party lately. 

Oksana Kukurudza 31:28
Mm hmm. I can. 

Rich Bennett 31:30
Okay. Yeah. So say your book. The book that you're working on. Sunflowers, Ben, but rarely break. First of all, I got to ask how you came up with that title because I love it. 

Oksana Kukurudza 31:39
Oh, thank you. Some people have been telling me it's too long and I might have to shorten it, but we'll see. 

Rich Bennett 31:44
No, no, no. Leave it the way it is. Leave it the way it is. 

Oksana Kukurudza 31:48
So. So first of all, sunflowers are the national flower of Ukraine. Secondly, sunflowers are also the largest agricultural exporter of Ukraine, and many people are now realizing that Ukraine is the center of very rich, black, black soil. And it's been called in the past the breadbasket of Europe because of the rich soil and the agriculture that it produces. And sunflower oil is the largest export for Ukraine. And we all know how important it's, you know, exports or any kind of food that is for Ukraine to continue to survive, to obtain foreign currency, but also for the rest of the world, you know, in terms of being able to feed, feed the world. And so sunflowers are key. Another reason why sunflowers are very key. The other thing that's interesting about sunflowers is just the way that they are very much addicted to the sun, you know, and they live off of the sun, I think more than than even other flowers to the point where, you know, they will bend and contort themselves, you know, as much as they can to get at that little bit of sunlight. And so I think of it as, you know, a sunflower bending as far as it can, even in the darkest days to just try to find some light. And so when I think about my parents experience and how resilient they were to survive their experience during World War Two and then come to the US and build a thriving family, or if I even think about Ukraine and Ukrainians today and what they're going through, I mean, they're showing their resilience every day to us and showing us how much their sunflowers, just like my parents were saying. 

Rich Bennett 33:47
And that's why you can't change the title, because it's got more to I mean. 

Oksana Kukurudza 33:51
That's how I feel, too, you. 

Rich Bennett 33:52
Know, And especially with everything is going on today, what your parents went through, you know, their they still are and everybody that they are, the sunflowers, you can bend them, but they're not going to break no matter what. So, yeah, if anybody tells you, change your title, tell them to take a hike. 

Oksana Kukurudza 34:10
Right. I'll remember that. I'll say what you said. Like you said. 

Rich Bennett 34:15
You can't change the title. It's perfect. And that's what I love about it. When whether it's a book, whether it's a song or whatever, sometimes that title can have different meanings a yours does, which makes it so much better. So why did you decide to start writing the book? 

Oksana Kukurudza 34:33
I decided to write the book after the invasion. The latest. 

Rich Bennett 34:38
Used stuff. 

Oksana Kukurudza 34:38
Okay, now I didn't. I decided to write it. I didn't start writing it until January of 

2023. And so what happened was I started writing chapters for a couple of years, a books for a friend of mine that have been published. And you mentioned them going against the grain and think Limitlessly. And when we were promoting the one going against the grain, it was right when the invasion happened and a couple of weeks after that I was meant to be to give an interview to an Australian online news organization. And I was really struggling with that because I, you know, I was just I was so sad and devastated because not only am I Ukrainian American, but we haven't talked about it. But back in 1996, 97, and I spent 18 months working and living in Ukraine, so and I lived in in Kiev and where oh, and different cities across Ukraine, including Dnipro and really the and Lviv. And so and then I've traveled around Ukraine as well as a tourist to a desk that you've been to Crimea, to to Yalta. And so it's became very personal to me what was happening. And I was devastated by it. And my friend said, talk about Ukraine, don't talk the book. You know, in a little bit of my chapter in the book was my experience in Ukraine anyway. So it was all interrelated. And coming out of that interview, you know, I told my friend, this is what I have to do. You know, I need to write a book about my parents and what happened to them. So I can shine a light on this little known time during World War Two and how related it is to what's being done today, because Vladimir Putin is the same Nazi fascist as Adolf Hitler was, or, you know, he to me Stalin was more of a of of a Nazi than than he was a communist. I mean, he was you know, he was incredibly brutal. And, you know, people can argue who is worse. So Hitler and Stalin. But I think it's all the same thing. You know, my parents would argue it in the basement all the time, and neither of them ever won the argument. You know, 

I didn't start writing it right away just because I had a very young child at that point in time. So she was okay. She was only one year old. So I just didn't have the capacity to to be able to start writing it right away. And so I finally started writing it in early January of this year. I was able to complete a first draft by the summer time, but then I started finding out some new information about my parents because I discovered that there is a little known art archive or an archive organization or organization that's that prides itself in Germany 

on collecting archived information about what happened during the Nazi period, as well as the displaced person period and and refugee camps after World War Two. And so through that organization, I was able to 

documents from both my parents, none of them during the war. Everything was after the war, but where they had to fill out information, or INRA, which was the nations organization that oversaw the refugee crisis in Germany and in other former occupied areas of of Nazi Germany post World War Two. And so one had to fill out documentation, you know, if you wanted to live in the camps, if you wanted to be a refugee, you know, if you wanted any kind of public assistance from the United Nations. And so I have a good bit of documentation now on my parents, which will help me kind of change and tweak their stories. 

Rich Bennett 38:57
I, I have a funny feeling with this. I could see this just from talking to you briefly here, because your parents had, I'm sure, so much to offer. And I'm sure you still know people over there now, right? 

Oksana Kukurudza 39:13
I do over. I have friends in Germany. I have friends and family in Ukraine. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 39:18
Okay. I could see this being a series of books. 

Oksana Kukurudza 39:23
It certainly could be. In fact. And it's a very good point that you've made. I already have an idea of what I would like the second book to be about, so. Oh, yeah. So my my mother had an older sister, older sister whom she was very close to. And one of the things I talk about in this, which we didn't even cover, by the way, is while both of my parents ended up being liberated by the US Army and ended up as refugees. And in the United States, my mother had an older sister, my father had a younger brother. Younger brother ended up in labor camps as well, but he ended up, while trying to escape, being captured by the Red Army force back to Ukraine with and became Soviet Union. And my mother's older sister had a child, couldn't leave when my mother left, and so she was also stuck back behind the Iron Curtain. And so both of my parents had 50 years of not seeing or conversing with their siblings for 50 years. The only way that they were able to, you know, share news was through letters, you know, like old snail mail letter. 

Rich Bennett 40:46
Yeah. 

Oksana Kukurudza 40:47
Yeah. So I want to write this whole story about my Aunt, my mother's sister, and what it was like on her side of the world during the war. After the war behind the Iron Curtain to get that point of view, because I doubt I don't think many Americans or Westerners have ever really written a story about what life was like behind the Iron Curtain. 

Rich Bennett 41:16
But yeah. Do you have any of these letters by chance? 

Oksana Kukurudza 41:21
Fortunately, I've been searching, but because I asked my my aunts, relatives, children, grandchildren, etc. if they had any of my mother's old letters and they said unfortunately they had lost them all. And already and my family's been trying to find we have we have some of the later letters, but they're not very helpful like the ones from, you know, like the late nineties and early 2000s. But yeah, it would be amazing if we could find some of the really, Oh my. 

Rich Bennett 41:54
God. 

Oksana Kukurudza 41:54
You know, from the sixties and seventies. But so far we haven't been able to. And fortunately, at. 

Rich Bennett 41:59
Least at least I'm sure you got plenty of old photos, right? 

Oksana Kukurudza 42:02
Yes, I have lots of old photos. And my my aunt's family and very, very close to a cousin of mine who would be her grandson. So it's like first cousin once removed. But he's very interested in me writing his grandmother's story. And so I know that I'll have you know, I'll have at least secondhand sources to help me with the second book. 

Rich Bennett 42:31
Oksana. I think it was a calling. 

Oksana Kukurudza 42:36
When. 

Rich Bennett 42:36
The company let you go because you do it honestly, you do have a sear. I mean, you could be like, I'm trying to think of all these different authors. There are so many out there that have all these series, whether it be nor Roberts, whether it be Pat or, you know, all these people there and Jews. For me, in that small chapter on your website, which we haven't even mentioned the website yet, 

I could tell that people are just going to to this is going to be a definitely an award winning book when it comes out. Without a doubt. Without a doubt. 

Oksana Kukurudza 43:17
Thank you. 

Rich Bennett 43:18
And I know that it's good to I have a funny feeling the way that you're you finish this first one. People are going to want to grab the second one and then the third one and so forth. And when it becomes a I don't know, do they even do with TV movies? Do they do mini series? 

Oksana Kukurudza 43:40
They don't know what they do, because that's for sure. And then the other thing that I've begun to do is, is is advocacy on Ukraine. So, I mean, you read my first chapter and so you know that in the beginning I was, you know, giving money and and trying to find ways to be involved. I was out, out protesting and and now I've started to to I don't want to call it lobby because I'm not a paid lobbyist or anything, but but in October I went down to D.C. and I talked with, you know, with with staffers from my my Senate and and representative offices. And I started writing to and blogging on on a site called Medium to kind of, you know, prove my writing chops as well and to oh, and to shine a light about what's going on in Ukraine. And so oftentimes I write about, you know, the current political situation where and where there's gridlock in Congress and in, you know, in Congress doesn't want to give Ukraine aid and the money is going to run out at the end of the year. And do we really want to hear a marine? Do we really want to pay more later or just pay now? Because, you know, Putin goes into Poland or the Baltics because we let him take Ukraine. You know, we're going to have U.S. soldiers down on the ground. Do we really want that? And we're going to be paying a lot more than 60 billion a year to, you know, to help Ukraine fight, you know, fight our greatest enemy sorry, you know, our greatest enemy for the past 100 years, Russia, the Russian Federation, Soviet Union. And so I have gotten, you know, really involved in advocacy. And I also want to use, you know, some of the proceeds from from the books to support Ukraine, not just. 

Rich Bennett 45:28
Oh, nice. 

Oksana Kukurudza 45:29
Today, but more importantly in the reconstruction that they're going to need to do. So the other thing that's been helpful with meeting with these Ukrainian advocacy groups is they're tied in to NGOs that are both American and Ukrainian that are helping on the ground today, as well as planning how to help Ukraine when there is peace and we can rebuild it and do something, you know, similar to the Marshall Plan like we did in Europe after World War Two. Right. Because that will be what Ukraine needs. 

Rich Bennett 46:06
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 

Oksana Kukurudza 46:08
So to me, this is a calling. You know, this is not oh, this is just going to be a one trick pony, one book. I mean, not only is this a the books, but this is me, you know, doing a giving back and making. 

Rich Bennett 46:26
A difference. 

Oksana Kukurudza 46:27
To help Ukraine in the long run. Not just not just today, but in the future. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 46:33
You know, I think more people need to do that, too, because and not just from what's happening today, but also telling your parents story because I 

we talked about it briefly a little bit ago where people are afraid to have conversations with their family because of politics. But you have to especially with the grandparents and everything, you have to talk to them. If you want to find out about history, talk to them, because and a lot of times you you see them with a lot of the guys that were in Vietnam. They don't want to talk about it, but they will talk to certain people. You start with the guys in the ladies, even from World War Two, you know, they didn't they want to talk about it, but to the right person they would. And you're seeing it now with everything that went on over in Iraq and Afghanistan and all that. So, you know, I, I applaud you for, you know, all the work you're doing for that. That's amazing, actually. Do you have any idea when a book is going to be finished? 

Don't you tell you just finish yesterday? 

Oksana Kukurudza 47:45
No, no, no, no, 

no. I have to take my trip first. So I'm really hoping to have a good what I would call a second draft in end of winter. So, I mean, really focus on the book after I get back from the trip, right? Because there will be changes I want to make to it, and then it will really just then it will really be determined by when I secure that publisher and how long it takes, you know, the publisher to then be ready to to publish it. And so, you know, I do have a publisher interested. I'm hoping to, you know, be able to get a couple more before then. You know, I have been told that it could take a year for these things, but once you do get a publisher, so we're probably looking at least at another year, hopefully we can fast track it and I can do whatever I can do to move it a little bit more quickly because, you know, I you know, it is a book that really needs to come out. It's a story that needs now. And I want it to be, you know, timely for people. 

Rich Bennett 48:58
And this is your your first your first book with your name on it. How in the world did you come about finding a publisher already? 

Well, let me rephrase that. Publishers that are. 

Oksana Kukurudza 49:12
Interested. Yes, Yes. A publisher interested. I don't have a it's one publisher. It's it's not multiple. I tried to get multiple, but it was through. I use the support a bit of a book consultant. So who has is a very, you know, very good ghostwriter you know, times bestselling ghostwriter and she helped me initially with with writing. Now I'm a pretty quick study so so I learned you know, she helped me with some of these some tricks to kind of really brighten the story. Right. And get the hook there, the hooks and everything. And so she helped me with getting into 

into an agent who's a retired agent who then, you know, had suggestions, started talking to some of her agent friends. And so that's how I have, you know, an agent or two interested in the book so far. 

Rich Bennett 50:18
So for you aspiring authors out there, did you hear that? And she's also got two agents interested. 

Yeah, Remember that. 

Oksana Kukurudza 50:30
But it's not easy. And, you know, I've been very I think it's been a combination of luck. And I do think the timeliness of the story that I'm. Yeah. And I'm telling. 

Rich Bennett 50:43
So with the book, what's been the hardest part to write so far? 

Because I'm sure it's it's got to trigger a lot of memories. 

Oksana Kukurudza 50:55
Honestly, the hardest and I don't mean hard to put pen to paper, I mean write hard the. 

Rich Bennett 51:02
Hardest one, you. 

Oksana Kukurudza 51:04
Know? 

Rich Bennett 51:04
Yeah, like writing song you hardest on. 

Oksana Kukurudza 51:07
I would say that every time I read that first chapter I can't stop crying. 

Rich Bennett 51:12
Yeah. 

And if you care, that means when the book comes out, other people aren't going to be the same way, and that's just going to draw them in. 

Oksana Kukurudza 51:22
Yeah, and there are a couple of other places. I don't want to give things away, but there are a couple other places where you know, where you know, the I can't help for the tears not to come when I when I beat across them when I was writing them, I wasn't crying. When I read them, I cried. I guess I guess I separate myself enough when I'm writing. But then when I read over it, it's very emotional and then they're. Would it be interesting for your readers as well as I do have some I do have some family secrets, too, that I share in the book, so. Oh, to name them. But that would also be maybe an interesting for some of your listeners. 

So I'm very transparent. 

Rich Bennett 52:11
Oh, so she was actually very good at hide and seek some. So I'm sorry, What was that? 

Oksana Kukurudza 52:17
You mean very bad at hide and seek I know. I don't know. 

Rich Bennett 52:20
That that's the secret. You were good at it. 

Oksana Kukurudza 52:22
You're 

you know, it's funny because someone asked me what my what would my parents how would they feel about me writing book about their lives now that they're not here? And Ukrainians in general are very reserved and private people. And my parents were even more reserved and private. And so my whole family's very private. So they would I think they would have a hard time with it. How? However, because there are some secrets that I'm sharing. Yeah, they purposely kept from us, but documentation doesn't lie. And I think 

knowing the reason that I'm I'm hoping, at least knowing the reason that I'm writing this and what I want to contribute Ukraine and contribute to the world and society, I think they would be okay with it, You know? 

Rich Bennett 53:21
I think so too. 

Oksana Kukurudza 53:23
No one in my family has challenged me about writing this. They've all been supportive of it. 

Rich Bennett 53:29
Because they. 

Oksana Kukurudza 53:29
Know, they know I will share, will be sharing some family secrets. And it's because they know that it's that important of a story to come out, that it's not about them, that it's about teaching the world something that maybe we didn't know or realize. 

Rich Bennett 53:47
And that's something we need more of. But it's also something that you're seeing more people do is talk about, well, you talk about these things that people are talking about their addictions. People are talking about mental health. Yeah, a lot more people are becoming more comfortable talking about it. And I think it's also helping people when they hear, you know, when they listen it. So, yeah, that makes that makes a big difference. 

Oksana Kukurudza 54:12
For people to know that they're not alone. Yes. It's also important to take the shame and the stigma out of experiences. You know, there are things in lives that all of us cannot control. You know, maybe we were too little, you know, maybe we were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but we didn't know it. And so, you know, like my parents, should they have had shame or a stigma because they were slaves of Nazi Germany? I mean, today we would say absolutely not. But. Right. You know, how many of those 12 million people have written about it or their descendants have written about it? Very few. And that's because the stigma is still there. So we need to we need to open it up and we need to say, no, you were the you yes, you were the victim at that time. But it doesn't mean that you're a victim your whole life. 

Rich Bennett 55:06
Yeah. Yeah. It's something you're doing. And I. I know once the book comes out, you're probably going on podcast again, promoting the book. 

Oksana Kukurudza 55:14
Absolutely. 

Rich Bennett 55:16
But I won't. I won't. Again, applaud you because you're doing something that I've never seen another author do. Is you're going talking about the book going on all these different shows, talking about it, and the book's not even finished yet. So, I mean, that's that's good marketing right there, in all honesty. So I got to applaud you for that. That is awesome. 

Oksana Kukurudza 55:41
I have to. But I'm also this I'm doing this about the book, but I'm also doing this because, you know, I want Americans, Americans out there to keep supporting Ukraine. I mean, the level of support for Ukraine is diminished in this country. And, you know, and Congress is seeing it. And, you know, I'm calling my senators and my representatives. And when I was in Congress, you know, one of the staffers said, you know, we receive ten anti Ukraine calls to every pro Ukraine call. Wow. And so, you know, any listeners on these podcasts, you know, if you care about liberty, you know, if you care that we don't end up in a direct confrontation with Putin and the Russian Federation in a few years from now, then we all need to be calling our representatives and our senators and telling them, keep giving Ukraine aid. You know, it's a recording. It's supporting American jobs because the production, military production is happening here. We're not giving them cash. We're giving them arms. And it's keeping young, you know, our men and women in this concert in the service home. 

Rich Bennett 57:00
Yeah. Yeah. 

Oksana Kukurudza 57:03
You know, it's yeah, there and and it's China's watching, too. I mean, you think they're not going to invade Taiwan If they see us back away from Ukraine and Russia up, they're going to say, oh, green light, let's go to Taiwan. Exactly. So I mean we're going to be in a head to head conflict with either Russia or with China. If we back away from Ukraine now. 

Rich Bennett 57:25
Yeah, yeah, we we don't it's 

so unfortunately, the way everything's looking in the world nowadays because you've got that you have Israel, you know, you know 

it's always as if everything is leading to another world war and we don't want it. We definitely don't want that. I'm looking at the time and there's a couple of other questions I want to ask you real quick. First of all, 

is your daughter better at hide and seek than you? 

Oksana Kukurudza 58:03
You know, we haven't tried it yet. So because she doesn't want to play hide. 

Rich Bennett 58:08
And seek with you, she heard. 

Oksana Kukurudza 58:12
So far, we're only on the chase. Yeah. No, no, that's not true. We did. We do hide it together, but it's. Yeah, Yeah, she's okay. I'll leave it at that. 

Rich Bennett 58:26
I when it comes to food, we talked about the Cabal so early. 

Oksana Kukurudza 58:30
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 58:31
Now, what is your favorite dish to make 

or restaurant to go to? 

Oksana Kukurudza 58:39
I don't know. No, no, no, no, no. I am a cook. I do cook. I mean, a train cook or anything, but I do love to cook. It's just when you said that, it's so hard because I have a lot of dishes, I have to say. But I would say the one thing I make that everybody kind of drools over is any kind of risotto that I make. Oh, and the risotto that I love the best because I will make it from fresh lobster stock that I'll I'll do the lobster stock first, and then later I'll make a lobster risotto and everybody loves it. 

Rich Bennett 59:20
Oh, 

that just sounds so good. 

Oksana Kukurudza 59:25
Oh, yeah. And there's nothing better than lobster stock for anything. 

Rich Bennett 59:31
Oh, and it's been a long time since I've been to Manhattan. So the next time I get up there, what restaurant do I need to go to 

and why? And what dish should I get? 

Oksana Kukurudza 59:45
Okay, so all the rage in Manhattan right now is elevated Korean cuisine. 

And so it's, you know, if you like Asian food, 

there are many amazing Korean restaurants. But I would say one that in particular I adore because it's elevated Korean, but it's still traditional. So a lot of the fancy Korean restaurants now in New York just do like Korean fusion, you know. So they don't do the traditional stuff. You know, everything's about making it really interesting and almost European looking. This restaurant called her name is Hon. 

It's elevated Korean, but yet it's still traditional. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:37
So what dish should I order there? 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:00:41
And you'll be happy with these two menu? Yeah. I mean, they I guess. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:45
The best thing to do. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:00:46
Really good soups. I mean, they're soup out of this world. They're noodle soups. Really good. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:51
So I'll just go in there and do like I do in every other restaurant and just say, Surprise me. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:00:56
There you go. Or the nice thing is they've got the names and they've got the pictures. So you can just point you can also just tell them to pick what's got off the menu. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:08
Yeah, I just love saying surprise me through people. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:01:12
Yeah, I think that's great. I'm going to in fact, I'm going to a restaurant in Berlin for New Year's and I pick here because they didn't know yet what the menu for New Year's was going to be. In fact, we will surprise you. And I said, That's the restaurant I want to go to. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:31
Oh, without a doubt. I would do that. Before I get to my last question, is there anything you would like to add and tell everybody? Of course, the website, they can go to to read the first chapter and all? 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:01:43
So I think other than, you know, if you care about Ukraine, call your senators and representatives. And I would say just, you know, stay on top of the news and, you know, watch closely what's happening. And if you are interested in learning more about, the writing that I'm doing, you know, there are a couple of really good places to go. The one is the first one is the Books land landing page, which is called WW dot sunflower Israeli break dot com. You can download the first chapter for free as rich and take a read. And the second is I'm actively blogging on a on a blogging site called Medium and Medium.com and I'm writing a lot about Ukraine there as well as about other current events or even travel I've done in my life. I've traveled to over 90 countries, so I have a lot of travel stories there. I write a combination about Ukraine, politics, history, current events, and most of it around Ukraine as well as general travel. And you can also sample more of my writing there. I've got about 50 articles up there now. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:55
I so this means you have to come on two more times. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:02:57
At least. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:58
Because you have to pay more when the book comes out or is about to come out. And now you're going to have to come on again to talk about all the places you've been to. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:03:07
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:08
And the, you know, the food you've tried there. No, because for some reason I talk to people and they travel a lot, but they won't. It's like it sometimes reminds me of the little kid. Every restaurant you go to, they want chicken tenders and fries. So people who travel a lot, they do. That is you got to try to cuisine of where you go to. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:03:34
Even. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:34
The different states here. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:03:36
Of course, you have to. I love Southern barbecue and I'm down in Alabama. Come on. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:43
Oh, well, that's what we're going to New Orleans in February. And I never been yet and I want to try their crabs because here in Maryland, of course, we have the best steamed crabs. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:03:57
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:58
But in New Orleans, they don't steam them. They boil them. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:04:02
Oh, yes. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:03
That's and I want to try that and of course, have crawled some good old crawled to. Okay. So I love asking this. You've been on several podcasts now. You've been on several interviews. Is there anything wrong that a host has never asked you that you wish they would have asked you? And if so, what would be their question and what would be your answer? 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:04:34
And 

so a lot of podcasters have asked me, you know, why I'm writing the book or what made me write the book, like what the inspiration was. But I don't think anyone except friend of mine recently asked me, what do I hope to gain by the book in this journey that I'm on? 

Rich Bennett 1:05:06
And what is that? I have a funny feeling, I know, but tell everybody with that as well. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:05:12
I say in the macro aspirational way, it's to maybe move the international community to do more, to search for ways to get to peace, and that's extremely aspirational. If I think about in the nearer term, it's to inform more people about Ukraine, Ukrainian history of the Ukrainian people, and for people to understand that Ukrainians suffered under the Nazis as much as many other groups did, and that there's no way Ukraine would be full of Nazis from those experiences right. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:07
Well, Oksana, I want to thank you so much. It's been a true pleasure to talk to you. And like I said, I know this is your path is, you know, writing a series that I could see becoming either a movie, movie or movies. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:06:27
Or Netflix. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:28
Movies I was going to say, or even a Netflix series. Yeah. You know, you never know. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:06:33
You never know. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:34
You just did it with what? Default. The House of Usher. They could do it with your permission. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:06:39
There you go. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:41
The Oksana. Thank you so much. 

Oksana Kukurudza 1:06:44
Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.