Recovery and Resilience with Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett, and today I'm joined by Christopher Mack and Wanda Webster. Christopher has over 18 years of experience as a recovery facilitator, helping individuals through addiction and homelessness. While Wanda brings a unique blend of psychology, education and spiritual work to the table. Together, the. Wow. It seems like you guys together are just. You're a force to be reckoned with. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 0:34
I hope so. 

Rich Bennett 0:37
They're going to share their insights on addiction recovery, tapping into intuition and dreams for decision making and the transformative power of energy work, crystals and journaling. All right. I got to ask this right off the bat, because when you take the two of you and experiences. 

How did you both come together and decide this is what you were going to do? Because, I mean, that's amazing. I mean, it's like two. What was it that Paula at Duke always said Opposites attract. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 1:14
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 1:14
I guess in a way. That's you, too, right? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 1:18
Look, I didn't plant. I don't think either of us planned this. 

Rich Bennett 1:22
Right? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 1:23
Honestly, we. I came together, met Christopher. We're not going to go into the whole relationship thing. But when we finally did get together, it's true. I'm an educational therapist. I've 

Rich Bennett 1:36
Mm 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 1:36
written 

Rich Bennett 1:36
hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 1:36
many social, emotional programs that have been at one point in seven countries. So I understand curriculum and writing and social emotional needs and so forth skills. And Christopher comes from the addiction community, which was completely new to me. And I was attending one of his lectures, and a woman stood up and said, But this is all well and good, but why am I the way I am? Now, this was ten years ago and I was like, Oh, that's so interesting. And nobody could give her an answer. So I love research. I started researching and attending some of these speeches and meetings is what they were. I was astounded by the level of trauma and. 

Abuse that these 

Rich Bennett 2:22
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 2:22
people have been through. It was heartbreaking and nothing I could imagine. I mean, I'm level ten and I, I to me, I said there has to be a correlation. There has to be a connection in here. 

Rich Bennett 2:35
Mm 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 2:35
And 

Rich Bennett 2:35
hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 2:35
so I started investigating trauma as it related to addiction. Back then, nobody was talking about that. 

Rich Bennett 2:41
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 2:41
And I thought, I'm uncomfortable, but I'm just going to the guidance is coming through. I sat down in 30 minutes and got a ten week program. It just came to me. 

Rich Bennett 2:50
What? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 2:51
Yes. And we haven't changed it much. 

Rich Bennett 2:54
Wow. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 2:55
And so it is based upon our childhood. Everybody has childhood trauma. 

Rich Bennett 3:01
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 3:02
Everybody's recovering from something. 

Rich Bennett 3:03
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 3:04
And now it's it's, you know, kitchen table talk. Like if we talk about the past traumas or whatever. 

Rich Bennett 3:11
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 3:11
Okay. How do we get rid of that? How do we address it? How do we release trauma? Well, there are given stretch proven strategies to help release trauma in our book. Our first book, The Journey Within, 

Rich Bennett 3:24
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 3:24
addresses that and puts this ten week. We started out, as you know, piloting it on Skid Row for three two years in three different locations. But. 

Rich Bennett 3:33
Really? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 3:34
After a point, I said, I have to we have to reach more people. It's wonderful. We would have 60 people in our meeting at some point. But I needed I had a vision to reach more people. So then I started writing the books that we have in the hopes that we can reach more people. Because you'll never I don't care what addiction you have if you don't have a support system. It doesn't have to be ours. It. If you don't have some sort of support system, it's just not going to work. It's not 

Rich Bennett 4:05
Exactly. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 4:06
going to 

Rich Bennett 4:07
Yeah. Now, in that book, correct me if I'm wrong, but the journey within. How long ago did you write that? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 4:13
Well, it's been maybe eight years. Maybe. Maybe it's not that long. I lose track of time these days. 

Rich Bennett 4:21
And isn't it tied to some kind of soup or something? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 4:25
Some kind of soup? 

Rich Bennett 4:26
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 4:26
No. Jack Canfield soup. Oh. 

Rich Bennett 4:30
Yeah, Chris. See, Christopher knew where I was going. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 4:34
Yes, we do have a recommendation from Jack Canfield. Chicken soup of the Soul. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 4:39
How in the world did you get that? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 4:42
Well, if you don't ask, you don't get. 

Rich Bennett 4:47
You know what? In all seriousness, thank you for saying that, because a lot of people are afraid to ask and you get a recommendation from Jack Canfield. I mean, some people may not recognize a name, but once you say the books, Chicken Soup for the Soul, they know exactly who you talking about. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 5:05
Yes. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 5:06
That is. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 5:06
And he. Our book is based on a Dr. Carl Young, and Jack Canfield has a special affection for Dr. Carl Young, just like me. 

Rich Bennett 5:15
Oh. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 5:16
And so he yes, he got it. He got what we were doing. So I really appreciate the. 

Rich Bennett 5:25
You mentioned that woman that got up, which is more or less you. That's when you started your research. Have you talked to her since that time? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 5:36
It's a it's a transient community down on skid. 

Rich Bennett 5:39
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 5:40
But 

Rich Bennett 5:40
Okay. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 5:41
homelessness is a very transient, you know, condition. 

Rich Bennett 5:45
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 5:45
And so the people you meet today, you might not see them for ten years, but eventually sometimes you run back into the same person. However, this is the caveat to that from the groups we have people you know, they hunger for and they say, When are you going to start a group again? Oh, I got so much out of it. And so that was that was kind of like it's always it's always good that you put it out there because you never know when somebody is going to get that aha moment in their own transition in life or in their own evolution. So me, I have today, I have 24 years in recovery. It started in 2000 with a. 

Rich Bennett 6:36
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 6:37
And I'm like, Oh, there's nothing wrong with me. I have no problem. I just want to do what I want to do. You know, you can't make me do anything. Me I used to always my rally cry was I'm a nonconformist, so I'm not conforming. If you ask me to do this, it's going to be a whole lot of questions of why should I do this? 

Rich Bennett 6:59
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 6:59
What am I going to get out of it? And so, you know, when I first started in a you, you know, I was lost alone in a four, eight period just and I was in a recovery home. And I got there by way of what is described in the big book of alcohol as a vital spiritual experience. A lot of times people are not looking on page 27 in a book of Alcoholics Anonymous called Young Jill, a member. Number three, that he has the mind of a chronic alcoholic. And then he goes on to describe the mechanisms of the mind. He says, Your ideas, your emotions and your attitude as a human being, they dominate. And he says once those are cast to one side is a new set of motives comes in. Now you start you just start the journey of recovery. So my vital spiritual experience is I was standing on the corner with handcuffs on, and I was looking at five years in the state penitentiary for possession of a controlled substance. And all of a sudden I hear a voice in my head says, You won't see one day in the state penitentiary. Well, I'm amazed. Yeah, because I'm amazed because I'm the you. But who is the one talking to me? 

Rich Bennett 8:26
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 8:26
And when that happened, I went to went to jail that night, went to sleep the next morning, three days later, they gave me a release for my own recognizance. And I said I didn't have to pay no bail. I was just let go. And then the court that I was going to go to the judge believed in recovery, and that's how I started in my journey to recovery. 

Rich Bennett 8:52
That is good, because not a lot of judges do. Not a lot of people in general believe in that. And that higher Power said something to you and that's when you started your journey. That is amazing. So and then with that, I take it, was it shortly after that when you started helping other people that are in recovery? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 9:17
Well, I got a sponsor. 

Rich Bennett 9:21
Right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 9:23
So, you know, certain things are set up to work, certain ways that 

Rich Bennett 9:26
Mm 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 9:26
if 

Rich Bennett 9:26
hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 9:26
you use all the elements, you're going to come out with a pie. 

Rich Bennett 9:30
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 9:30
And I put the flour in and stuff. So they suggested I didn't know anything about AA because I was my own person and I was, you know, defiant to the end, you know, rebellious and resistant. So 

when I did what was said, I follow some simple instructions. A lot of times people think that when you get a sponsor, he's there to tell you what to do. He's there to make suggestions 

Rich Bennett 9:59
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 9:59
for you to do something. And if you follow those suggestions, you're going to get a beautiful outcome. 

Rich Bennett 10:07
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 10:07
Well, I've gotten a beautiful outcome myself. 

Rich Bennett 10:10
You said 24 years in recovery now. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 10:13
I've got 24 years 

Rich Bennett 10:14
That's 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 10:14
of sobriety. 

Rich Bennett 10:14
great. What actually led you to start helping people that are homeless? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 10:21
My sponsor. 

Rich Bennett 10:22
Your sponsor did okay? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 10:24
So. So I was looking for work. 

Rich Bennett 10:26
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 10:26
It was 2003. My sponsor said Christopher Matt. He said, I got a job for you. I said, Well, what is it? He says, I want you to come and apply for this job with. A health care system that operates down to providing medical services for the underserved regardless of the ability to pay. And so was in 2003. I went downtown Skid Row because there I was supposed to do surveys in the public. I was the skip. I was a community outreach worker for that company. And so that was in 2003. I'm still there. It's 

Rich Bennett 11:05
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 11:05
2024. 

Rich Bennett 11:09
Oh, 

God. I have a funny feeling I'm not going to like the answer to this question. With homelessness. Do you see the numbers going up or are they actually coming down? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 11:26
I can answer that. But if you don't like it, that's fine. I think that when you define something with a definition that doesn't work and you continue to use that definition in you, you don't have as much success as you would like to. 

Rich Bennett 11:43
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 11:44
And so they define homelessness as a mental illness and substance abuse. This is oh, these people may myself personally. I think homeless is a socioeconomic condition brought on by policies and politics of people with means. And it has its roots in abject poverty. However, we cannot rule out a leave out of that definition what is disenfranchised. 

Rich Bennett 12:11
Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 12:11
And 

Rich Bennett 12:11
Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 12:11
so 

Rich Bennett 12:11
Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 12:12
many people are disenfranchised with the social condition in which they live. 

Rich Bennett 12:18
I In all honesty, I never heard that part about where they said homelessness is a mental illness. And what else did you say? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 12:26
Substance use of the homeless because they have mental illness, they are homeless because they have substance use and per capita skid Row is the homeless capital of the world. 

Rich Bennett 12:41
Right? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 12:42
I don't know if that's true today, 

Rich Bennett 12:44
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 12:44
but but then a lot of times people don't understand that people migrate to Skid Row because the weather conditions here 

Rich Bennett 12:52
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 12:52
are lovely year round. But don't fool yourself. People can die of hypothermia in Skid Row. 

Rich Bennett 13:00
She and the other. Because with that, when you look at 

homelessness and you look at how many kids are homeless, has nothing to do with mental illness or substance abuse, sometimes they age out of a foster home and there's no place for them to go. That's. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 13:23
That's a social condition 

Rich Bennett 13:24
Thank 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 13:25
that we 

Rich Bennett 13:25
you. Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 13:25
have that society has created when we have added to the foster care system. Don't let the children who are in foster care. There's a fund for them so that they can go to school, get educated and things. But somebody don't let the kids know. 

Rich Bennett 13:44
Exactly. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 13:45
And then now you have a child that doesn't have any connections. One of the real points of homelessness is you don't have connections. You don't have somebody supporting you and you are all by yourself. And one of the things in the condition of is we revert back to our animal behavior. It's only about survival that I'm not saying people become animals. It's about survival. And survival is always using that lower chakra in, you know, which is shelter, which is feeding me, feeding me, feeding me, what can I get? What can I get, what can I get? And so a lot of times people don't have good starts to be in society. 

Rich Bennett 14:34
I would love to see more people get involved and get out there and help people that are homeless. I know we do it. We have every year around winter time, we have a route. They do a rotating homeless shelter they do between the churches. And one of the things we love to do is when I say We, my Lions Club, we gather the grills and we'll go up there and we'll cook for them. And I'll never forget the last time because. 

We were talking, man, and they said, Well, what are we going to make? I said, You know, we did hamburgers and hot dogs last year. That's boring. Let's really go all out. So we did crab soup, pit beef, pit ham. It's like we're we're going to feed these people the same thing. We like to eat. We we ain't going to skimp on anything. Let's go all out. The the amazing thing was our Leos, which are two young kids from 12 to 18, they learned so much. They loved that they stayed afterwards and they were playing games with the people that. Now keep in mind, homeless families were not allowed in there. This was just adults. But our early years were helping them, playing games, getting involved and just listening to their stories. And I would love to see more people in our country do that because and correct me if I'm wrong, Christopher, because you see it, but I feel like a lot of these people feel like they're not loved. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 16:13
That's a double edged sword in some sense. 

Rich Bennett 16:17
Hmm. Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 16:17
Because sometimes people are so beaten down. And if you only try to grab, grab, grab, grab, grab and you never think about what can you give back. And so you dealing with an individual that what do you got for me? 

Rich Bennett 16:31
Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 16:31
I 

Rich Bennett 16:31
Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 16:31
mean 

Rich Bennett 16:31
Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 16:32
even when you offering health care, what am I going to get out of? Oh, we got a gift card. We don't have a gift card then. Okay, We walk on by you and I need your support, but I want everything you got. And. And then it's like when you see encampments and you see people who have collected a lot of things, you know, just. It doesn't matter what it is. It's just a collection. 

Rich Bennett 16:55
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 16:55
They put it in their basket, they put it in their tent. And the stuff is something that somebody has dumped, somebody who has well-meaning stuff. They dump it down on Skid Row and it's their garbage. It's their thing. Somebody comes along and puts it up and puts it in their tent or they put it in their cart and. 

You have to reach him. You can't if you can't reach him. This is difficult to create a change. However, if the system does not have a platform for the next phase, which is how how do you get somebody in a housing that they can afford? They talk about affordable housing, but what is accessible housing? 

Rich Bennett 17:41
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 17:41
Making housing accessible to the guy who only got two nickels. So 

we have we have a long way to go. We have to look at it as creating at what what the system is doing now is only trying to manage something, but they never go to the next thing. How do we get these people to thrive and what does that look like? And so those are questions that need to be asked in order to come up with a solution that would be viable for the society. 

Rich Bennett 18:15
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 18:16
Remember I said it's a social economic condition. And if you have somebody who is rebelling against society socially, rebelling against them, resisting, then you can only help them by what they want. And if you can get their attention and be supportive to them, that's the next phase. A lot of times in homelessness they try to do a one fit, one one solution, one fit. But it's not that. Do you need to do a they need to do some type of assessment for the individual 

Rich Bennett 18:50
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 18:50
and then try to create a social plan for the for the individual that he signs on to. Now, you're giving him onus in his own life, making him his own best advocate. You can have people who come and give you things all the time, but there's no value for that because there's something inside the human spirit that says I have to. It's like, let me give you an example. If you crack the egg for the chicken, he dies because he did not break out of the egg. If you pull the cocoon, the butterfly will not fly. So that struggle has to come for strength. But when I first got downtown, I thought I said, This is the elephant graveyard. And I saw people laying down and I saw people being, you know, just giving up hopelessness, learned helplessness. These things I saw. And then one day I cried for two years because of that. And then one day I was walking down the street. And because they knew me, they'd say, Hey, Chris, I got my old key. I got my own apartment. I said, Chris, I'm going to school. And I And then I said, Oh, this condition there must be hopelessness for there to be hope because of the condition of hopelessness. I saw people rise to the occasion and I said, This is what the rise of the feelings looks like. The things doesn't go down and come up with the same bird. It goes down in the ashes of its own existence. And then a new bird is is created and it rises with strength and with resolute. That is something that that I think the journey within helps to foster. You know, the person has to have this all that. The person has to do it from within. 

Rich Bennett 20:44
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 20:45
It cannot be done from without. Because guess what? Sometimes you give a man something and he'll hate you even more because you have it too giving. 

Rich Bennett 20:55
Bet when you when you hear there is those tears of sorrow turn into tears of joy, don't they? Real fast. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 21:01
Well, when you when you when you do that, all you can do is smile at the 

Rich Bennett 21:06
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 21:06
creator. Because the greatest, the greatest, the greatest attribute, the greatest characteristic of man himself is resilience. 

Rich Bennett 21:15
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 21:15
And when you see that resilience start to kick in and start to operate in the individual. And he knows that he can do something. But we're taught that the 12 step is having having a spiritual experience. We tried to carry this message to those who are still suffering. That is the onus. And that is the responsibility of me as a member. 

Rich Bennett 21:39
So for 18 years now, you've been going out help in the homelessness and you're still doing that. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 21:45
22 years. 

Rich Bennett 21:46
22 years. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 21:47
I started in 2000. 

Rich Bennett 21:49
Okay. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 21:49
Three. 

Rich Bennett 21:50
And Wanda, do you go out with him as well? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 21:52
No. 

Rich Bennett 21:53
No. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 21:53
The educational therapies. So I work with children with learning differences. She works on the other end of the spectrum. 

Rich Bennett 21:59
Wait a minute now. Okay. 

So. Well, I guess you're working with homeless children as homeless. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 22:08
No, no, no. 

Rich Bennett 22:08
No. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 22:09
I work. No, my kids. Most of them come from a pretty affluent family. 

Rich Bennett 22:16
Okay. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 22:16
But they're struggling because of autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, other learning differences, slow processing disorder. There are many, many children that are just learned differently than what the public school wants them to. So I work on that spectrum. 

Rich Bennett 22:37
Oh, that's a whole nother podcast because I could talk to you about that for hours. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 22:43
Can I share something with you? 

Rich Bennett 22:45
No, of course you can. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 22:51
I didn't want to talk over it. 

I have to share. I benefited from her therapy. Peer to peer advice. 

She. She looked at me, and, you know, it gave me some healing. She said, Chris, you know, you have ADHD. And nobody ever told me that. You see, I grew up in the fifties. I grew up in in 1953. So, you know, all of the thing that has to do with social emotional intelligence and stuff like that was not a real discussion. 

Rich Bennett 23:28
Exactly. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 23:29
As as now. 

Rich Bennett 23:30
Yep. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 23:30
And what she told me, I had AIDS. It answered some questions to all my historical to some of my historical depressions. I was depressed and didn't know I was depressed. But, you know, when you're out there in the addiction world, you're always looking for that next, next thing, next thing, next. You know what my sponsor once said to me? He said, Christopher Mack. He said, Why do you always want to feel good? And that's telling me. But when, when, when, when, when when he told me that it was okay not to feel good. And it was then that I realized that I could just be okay and I'm all right. 

Rich Bennett 24:14
Huh? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 24:15
And so when Wanda told me that I had ADHD, it answered the questions to a lot of my life ills 

Rich Bennett 24:24
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 24:24
that I carry with me. And I'm a better person for it because I'm a little bit more relaxed, a little bit more confident inside. You know, I can do things that, you know, I didn't think I could do, but. 

Rich Bennett 24:38
Well, you know that there's there's tools that we can use for that. And you're right, when we were growing up, ADHD was not a thing. We were told we. We were told we were dumber. Stupid, plain and. That's what we were told and that's what we believed all these years, you know. And now, thanks to people like Wanda, we're able to get the help that we need it. We're able to, I want to say turn our lives around if we haven't learned how to do so already. And Oh, my God. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 25:13
How about feeling good about yourself? I mean. 

Rich Bennett 25:15
Go. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 25:17
That's huge. 

Rich Bennett 25:18
Yep. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 25:18
When you can feel good about you, when you can feel comfortable in your own skin, then I'ma tell you something like this. A wondrous journey. 

Rich Bennett 25:28
It is. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 25:29
And it's not it's not a down thing. We want to do for my children? The. I work with any of the adults that we work with. This is help people to reach their full potential. 

Rich Bennett 25:42
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 25:43
Might be different than mine, Christopher's, whatever. But how do how do we get them to live up to their full potential? 

Rich Bennett 25:51
And that's the thing. Christopher hit the nail right on the head. You start feeling good about yourself. When you start feeling good about yourself. You learn to respect yourself and you learn to love yourself. And once you can do that, you can pass that on to others. And it makes a big, big, big difference. All right. I have to ask you guys. Tell everybody what is dynamics of discovery? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 26:16
Recovery. 

Rich Bennett 26:17
I'm sorry. Dynamics of recovery. 

Okay. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 26:22
We got his excited. Ha ha ha. 

I. 

Rich Bennett 26:27
It was it was the saying to. Discovering. So now what? What is the dynamics of recovery? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 26:35
What is the dynamic? Well, it's a ten week program. It is now in two books, The Journey Within, which is the first book, and it has ten chapters for you to go through. It's all about interest fiction for you to uncover outdated beliefs, traumas, etc.. And there's a second book, Isobel Starry Night, which is a fictional story which shows what does it look like when the dynamics of recovery are in action in my life? What does it look like to have a character that goes through introspection at the end of her day? What went right? What went wrong? What did I learn today? That's the big part of the journey within and dynamics of recovery is that introspection. We believe in the power of the individual. You have the answers within. You might need support from other people to get there to uncover those layers. But you do have the answers within, right? 

Rich Bennett 27:37
Is this something that's only for people that are in recovery or. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 27:42
Everybody's in recovery. You know, we don't think that recovery is is just substance use. You know? You know, you turn everything into a economic boon for the system. Substance use disorder. It's not about the substance. It's about the it's about the idea, the emotion and the attitude. What dominates as human being, what dominates an individual. It's about his mind. And in in in in the point of the book, the the introspection and the reflection creates the condition of. Aha. 

Rich Bennett 28:22
Hmm. Okay. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 28:24
It's the moment that moves you from. 

Rich Bennett 28:26
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 28:27
From being stuck to being stuck. 

That's internal. 

Rich Bennett 28:34
I've been hearing that term a lot, too, being stuck and a lot of people don't know how to get unstuck. I think I think I'm get ready to discovery. I think the dynamics of recovery will help them become unstuck. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 28:49
Because the dynamics that we could determine within is actually a workbook in 

Rich Bennett 28:53
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 28:54
and what it has in it. It has the category of feelings and 

Rich Bennett 28:58
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 28:59
it has where a person can look at and write a journal. So it covers some of the things that we propose or suggest. And what we do is if you do the book and you look at it and you look at it from the introspection of yourself 

Rich Bennett 29:19
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 29:19
and the chapters are there just to cause you to look, to see and hopefully what was I think what we always say is the question becomes the flashlight in the dark halls of your mind. It can just be one question that unlocks everything. 

Rich Bennett 29:39
Okay. First of all, if you guys don't have them yet, you need to do this because the quotes that both of you have been coming up with are amazing. You need to create some shirts with some some of these scenes on there. This. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 29:55
I think. I think you're right. I think you're right. The book is full of them. 

Rich Bennett 29:58
Okay. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 29:59
You're right. We need to come up with some shorts, outtakes and whatever. You're right. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 30:05
I mean, people love wearing shirts like that now. I know. I do. So now do you guys actually go out and speak with people as well or do like webinars 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 30:18
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 30:18
or anything like that? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 30:19
We just got back from Colombia, South America, where there was a retreat and we got to present to a small group of 10 to 15 people. Yes, we do. We work a lot right now. Is one on one with individuals. But we have an ongoing group with this South American group that we're Americans, but we have an ongoing monthly group with them as they responded well to our program. 

Rich Bennett 30:50
So in the beginning I mentioned 

I think it was crisp. You work with crystals? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 30:58
Energy. Well, it's 

Rich Bennett 31:01
Oh. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 31:01
amazing. 

Rich Bennett 31:02
Is that like the like the Reiki or is this. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 31:06
He's a Reiki master also. 

Rich Bennett 31:08
Oh, come on. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 31:10
He is a Reiki master also. But no, the crystals are something different. He's kind of like a crystal whisperer. I like 

the one contributing factor of our existence is energy. What Nikolai Tesla said is is always observable. So he says that if you want to understand the universe, you have to think in terms of energy, frequency and vibrations. And so I started learning how to dowse is the technical term for it is really a estacio and you use a. Back in the day when they needed to find water, they would use a window rod or dowsing rod. 

Rich Bennett 31:57
Near. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 31:57
And they would find water. So you can douse energy with a pendulum or with a. Dowsing rod. So I use a pendulum to dowse. And what I found out is that each crystal has its own vibration, it has its own frequency, you have your own vibrate, you have your frequency. And so that's how I do it. I work with energy. 

Rich Bennett 32:22
I explained this. So when you say work with energy, is it working with energy to help heal people or 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 32:31
Well, he does. What Do you know where chakras are 

Rich Bennett 32:35
I. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 32:35
like the energy centers? 

Rich Bennett 32:36
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 32:37
Seven base bases. I mean, there's many more, but seven basic ones. There's a whole science behind chakras, but you have to look in India. So he's going to visit me and cannot answer that. How can I connect the source of his stroke? So your first name. 

Rich Bennett 32:55
Rich. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 32:56
Is Rich's limit Connect to Rich's shop. Richard Rich's shop. Is Rich's roof chocolate shaped correctly? Is this spending incorrect? Such a fat on the floor. Are your feet flat on the floor. Okay. So right now, there is nothing that you're feeling down there on your feet. Right. So your route shock was connected to the core of the earth. So as I say, 1 to 3, the energy is going down, down, down, down. Now, your route, Chuck, was connecting to the earth. The energy is coming up. Let me know when you feel the energy in your ankles and your when 

Rich Bennett 33:34
Whoa. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 33:34
you feel. Okay. Thank you. That's it. So now. 

Rich Bennett 33:39
That was just too weird. Shit. Shit. As soon as you say. Let me know when you feel the energy in your ankles. Right. When you said that, I felt my ankles tingling. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 33:51
That's the energy. 

So when we work with individual clients, Christopher always balances them first to make sure the energy is flowing. When your energy is flowing and not blocked, you're going to have better guidance from your energy, working with your good self to guardians, angels, whatever, whatever you want to call it. We get guidance messages from our high yourself. You must be balanced with this hardship. 

Rich Bennett 34:20
All right. I'm flying out to you guys. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 34:22
Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I just took a look at your heart stopper. Now, as your heart ever been broken. 

Rich Bennett 34:30
Oh, God. Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 34:31
No, See, that's 

Rich Bennett 34:32
Huh? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 34:33
where your heart has never been broken. It cannot be broken. But what it is, you have been disappointed. So right now your heart chakra is not is not moving correctly. Now, what I'm going to do is the energy from the core of the earth is coming up. Let me know when you feel it below your navel. There it is right there. Let me know that it's going above your navel right there. Now it's in your heart. Let me know when you feel the energy in your heart. Beautiful. There it is. Your heart chakra has just been corrected. The shape is now just moved up. You throw chakra. You've been doing visible dreams. And energy is coming down from your crown chakra straight through your body. You feel a beautiful burst of energy going down. 

Rich Bennett 35:18
Wow. Wait. Do well. 

Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 35:27
Well, you didn't expect this part, did 

Rich Bennett 35:29
No, 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 35:29
you? 

Rich Bennett 35:29
I. Here are those of you listening. 

Okay. We can see each other. Of course. I'm here in Maryland. They're in California. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 35:40
He just got a burst of energy. That's awesome. 

Rich Bennett 35:44
Well, here's the. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 35:45
If they only come. 

Rich Bennett 35:48
And I don't know if this makes a difference or not. Christopher, You let me know because there are some people that do not believe. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 35:57
Belief is the weakest proof of reality. 

Rich Bennett 35:59
Right. I. I mean, I have an open mind. I believe in this stuff. I've. I've experienced some things that, to me are unexplainable. You know, but. And throughout this whole package, when we're when we be sitting here talking, I have not been sitting properly. I've been lean into one side, legs crossed or whatever. And then when you did all that, you told me it put my feet flat on the floor. And sure enough, when you said ankles, I felt that tingling in my ankles. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 36:33
Yeah, that's the energy. 

Rich Bennett 36:34
Everything just coming up and it's like. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 36:38
He just opened 

Rich Bennett 36:38
It's mind 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 36:39
up. 

Rich Bennett 36:39
blowing. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 36:40
In a new is a more balanced. 

Rich Bennett 36:42
Yes. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 36:43
Yeah. That's what it feels like to be Ballard. That's you as you inside of yourself. 

Rich Bennett 36:47
It's. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 36:49
We've got so much energy right now. He wants to run around the room. You got to do this by. 

Rich Bennett 36:55
You know, I'm sitting here looking at my elliptical. Now it's clockwise. 

Oh, my God. But that's just amazing. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 37:07
So when we work with people, we work with the physical body, 

Rich Bennett 37:11
Mm 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 37:12
we 

Rich Bennett 37:12
hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 37:12
work with the emotional body and the mental body. It's a whole person approach, which again, we think they should be doing with with anybody on Skid Row or any homeless people. It's what I do. I don't quite do as much of that with my kids. I can't. But I try to view them as a whole person. 

Rich Bennett 37:32
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 37:32
How can I best support them? And we're complex human beings with an emotional body, a mental body, a physical body, a spiritual aspect. So we want to incorporate all of that. When we work with individual people and even in groups, we can incorporate some of this. 

Rich Bennett 37:50
That. I just 

it's weird. I feel. 

almost feel like a new person. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 38:00
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Because you experience 

Rich Bennett 38:04
Good. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 38:04
it. Yeah. You feeling your whole self 

Rich Bennett 38:08
Okay. James 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 38:09
is 

Rich Bennett 38:09
Brown 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 38:09
you. 

Rich Bennett 38:09
just came into my head. I was. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 38:11
Yeah. Are you channeling her? 

Rich Bennett 38:21
Oh, God. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 38:23
They're willing to. 

Dad's favorite song. I feel good, Dad. 

Rich Bennett 38:31
You can you can never go wrong with James Brown. I'm sorry. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 38:37
Yeah, that's. 

Rich Bennett 38:38
Oh, okay. I know you guys have a YouTube channel, but do you have a podcast as well? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 38:44
You now we've just been guest on on other people's podcasts where we're trying to determine how because as we both work full time, how do we best get the work out? It might be our own podcast. It might be going back to YouTube and started to start doing YouTube videos. I don't know. So right now we're just taking it as it is. 

Rich Bennett 39:05
I. I would definitely 

go with the podcast because it's easy for people to listen to your message in a car. Then it is to watch a video. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 39:21
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 39:21
The thing is to you guys, with everything that you guys do, there is a 

prime example. Christopher just did with me. They took, what, 2 minutes? 

You can get a message across in so little time to people and do like little five minute, 15 minute segments. And put that out there and help change people's lives, which I mean, I know you guys are already doing that, but there's so many more people out there that you can help. And the funny thing is, even though because before we started, we talked about let's talk about addiction. I didn't realize everything that you guys do, all the different types of things that you can help people with beyond addiction, you know, Oh, my God, It's a year full of surprises. Of course. You know, go figure. I had no idea that Christopher did that. I had no idea that you worked with children. I think I'm going to have to change the name of this podcast now is, Hey, let's shock the hell out of Rich again. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 40:47
But at. 

Ha ha ha ha ha. 

Rich Bennett 40:53
I. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 40:53
Oh. 

Rich Bennett 40:54
I cannot tell you how many different people I've had on me that surprised me. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 40:59
The set of class of the podcast. 

Rich Bennett 41:02
Conversations with Santa Claus. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 41:05
Want to have another podcast and you have a guest on that we could work with. That might be kind of exciting. 

Rich Bennett 41:13
You know, when a guest says what type of guest? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 41:17
One of your listeners. 

Rich Bennett 41:19
Ooh. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 41:20
If one of your listeners, if they want to volunteer and come on and we do a. 

Even 30 minute session. And one at a time is rich. Rich, you don't have to believe me. I work with the energy. 

Rich Bennett 41:35
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 41:36
So whether you believe it or not, I can see what the energy is doing. 

Rich Bennett 41:40
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 41:41
And so when I ask the president, he says, well, the energy is coming up, coming through. It's just like, you know, you're balanced right now. So in anywhere, the energy is in your body, you could feel it, period, and especially in your heart. You know, my suggestion to you, because a lot of times when I start working with people, one of the things about it is you need a rose quartz. You take a small rose course, put it in your pills, sleep for sleep with it for seven days. That rose quartz is going to do the work because, you know, so some of the things that you are doing to your self comes from external ideas that you've had about yourself. But the rose quartz is going to open that up for you. 

Rich Bennett 42:29
You put it in your pillow. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 42:32
You can put it under your in your in your pillowcase as put it 

Rich Bennett 42:35
Well. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 42:35
asleep underneath your pillow. Yeah. The rose quartz. The rose quartz is a very loving, sweet stone. If you go to a crystal store and you see a rose quartz and it calls you, that's the one to get. But one of the things about it is the affairs of your heart is being expanded. 

Rich Bennett 42:54
Hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 42:54
You know, you have a big heart. However, do this. Ball your fists up. 

Rich Bennett 43:00
Both of them. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 43:01
No one. 

Rich Bennett 43:02
Okay. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 43:03
What can you put in there? 

Rich Bennett 43:05
Well, nothing right now is balled up. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 43:08
That's the way Sometimes we have our heart when we think our heart has been broken. However, when we realize that our heart cannot be broken, then that was just disappointment. We relaxed that muscle and therefore you begin to get more of yourself involved in loving yourself. 

Rich Bennett 43:29
Wendy, I love your idea. We are going to have to do this. I will. I will. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 43:34
Wonder. 

Rich Bennett 43:37
Would you say? Well, was. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 43:39
Not when they want. 

Rich Bennett 43:40
DOBBS You know what? Because I'm thinking of my other co-host, Wendy Abzug, and I know Wendy can bring somebody on. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 43:47
Let's do Wendy. 

Rich Bennett 43:49
I did that with her. I actually a young lady in San Diego. I told Wendy I had her on before and I told Wendy. I said, When do you have to co-host with me? I need you need to meet this young lady. And she did a reading of Wendy. And it was. She's a what do you call psychic reader or whatever. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 44:13
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 44:14
It was amazing. Amazing. But. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 44:18
And feel. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:19
But Wendy is the founder of 

Rage Against Addiction here, which is a nonprofit helping women in recovery. And I think I want to talk to her about this and have her say. Let's bring on somebody from one of the houses as a guest. I think that would be perfect. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 44:42
I 

Rich Bennett 44:42
That. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 44:42
think it would be exciting. 

Rich Bennett 44:43
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 44:44
Love to do that. 

Rich Bennett 44:45
Oh. Oh, we're going to do that. So those of you listening, get ready. You're going to have Wendy wander. 

Wendy, Wanda and Christopher from Dynamics of Discovery. 

I'd. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 45:05
I like that. But you're absolutely you're absolutely. Interesting that you would say that dynamics of discovery, because there is a little old saying that says uncover, discover and discard. And so when you find out that the dynamics of discovery is recovery, because that's what we do. 

Rich Bennett 45:27
You know what? Here's the funny thing. All right. So, Christopher, you're going to like this because I got your website open. Okay. And you now have to type. You can see the tabs. Well, when I'm under your facts page, your tab says Dynamics of discovery. 

All the other tabs say dynamics of recovery. Now, how strange is that? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 45:56
That is strange. 

Rich Bennett 45:57
Yeah, 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 45:58
I didn't even know that. I 

Rich Bennett 45:59
I 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 45:59
going to talk to my Web person. 

Rich Bennett 46:01
fell. I think that might be a message, though. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 46:05
Yeah. Dynamics, Discovery. How do you recover is when you discover, 

Rich Bennett 46:09
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 46:10
you know what it is that you don't need. 

Rich Bennett 46:13
See that we. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 46:14
So you could you could uncover, discover and discard. 

Rich Bennett 46:17
We were both learned. All three of us were both. All three of us are learning something. I was again crazy, all four of us. But Wendy's not here. Alright, so, look, it's not the. It's. Oh, God, man. We went so off track. But you know what? That's me. I see squirrels a lot, so. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 46:37
World. 

I love it. God, you. It's all perfect. It's all. 

Rich Bennett 46:45
The I definitely I definitely want to get a guy like, well, it's going to be more than once 

because Wanda, I could talk to you especially about helping the children. That is to me, that's something that needs to be talked about more. Actually, I have another, ah, another one of my cohost who has, I think one of their kids has autism. And I would love to get her on this, you know, And we could sit there and do another record in like it's strictly about that. 

And I just. Christopher I got to do one about just the energy crystals. How many different crystals are there? I mean, that's. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 47:33
Go do that because you got. Got me in trouble. Do you know how many crystals 

Rich Bennett 47:37
But 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 47:38
we have in 

Rich Bennett 47:38
the. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 47:38
our home? I would say we. 

Rich Bennett 47:44
But then she said, The thing is, my daughter loves crystals 

and I maybe have two different crystals. That's it. I don't even know what 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 47:56
Which 

Rich Bennett 47:56
they. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 47:56
ones are it? 

Rich Bennett 47:56
I have no idea. Somebody gave them to me. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 47:59
Where are they? No, we're not going to do that. I just want to get the crystal. 

Rich Bennett 48:03
There. I don't even know. I may have given them to my daughter because, see, on my nightstand, 

there's three things I have my Himalayan salt rock. I have a little angel that we lost our our first daughter. She was stillborn, so I was able to put that little angel in her hand. And I grabbed that angel every night before I go to bed. And when I wake up in the morning and I say a prayer. Have a little rock that I guess it looks like a polished rock that my daughter found when she was young. And she gave me and I caught my grateful rock. So again, before I get out of bed, I grab that rock after I say my prayer and I say something that I'm grateful for. But I really want to learn more about these crystals. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 48:58
Well, that's another podcast. 

Rich Bennett 49:00
I'm saying. I mean, 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 49:01
It would be an. 

Rich Bennett 49:01
it may not be a thousand crystals that we learned. 

Like the rose, Chris. I had no idea about that. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 49:14
Well, you know, if I see something, if I get in your energy and start working with your energy sometimes is just say. But for you, I can just I'm going to give you three crystals that will be just the best one. Rose quartz. 

Rich Bennett 49:30
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 49:30
2 a.m. with this quartz crystal. 

Rich Bennett 49:34
That's the purple one, right? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 49:36
A clear quartz crystal. No. Watch. The rose quartz is for this loving and itself loving comfort of self love. 

Rich Bennett 49:44
Mm hmm. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 49:44
You know, you you are now practicing self love. And so to take you to that next level, you know where you know joy and happiness is just be expressed. Why you're sitting there all of a sudden you go to is go feel it and then you just start smiling if you don't do it already. Second thing, Amethyst will will transmute any negative energy around you so you don't have to push it away or do anything. It just transmutes the energy. So when to trust means that energy. That energy is now safe for you to use. Clear quartz crystal will help you with wood being focused, and it would help you with clarity. So. 

Rich Bennett 50:30
Oh. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 50:31
Three of those. So. And the more you all that that clear quartz, the clearer will get. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like that. 

Rich Bennett 50:39
Okay, so where do you get these things? Because I'm sure some people sulfate crystals. 

If there is such a thing as fake crystals. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 50:49
Yeah, well, there can be that black world and all that other stuff. I got a crystal that was. That was growing in Russia. It was a lab growing. It is huge, but it's beautiful. Well, go to a reputable place. 

Rich Bennett 51:03
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 51:04
But they're all over. Crystal shops are all over. But look, look, look. But I'll tell you what I'll do. You email Wanda your address, and I'll find you a rose quartz. Well, you get your rose quartz for your pillow. I'll find your rose quartz. I'll find you a. Amethyst, and I'll find you a clear quiet. Okay. So 

Rich Bennett 51:29
You don't need to do 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 51:30
don't. 

Rich Bennett 51:30
that. I want to fly out there. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 51:35
Okay, well, if you do fly out here, you will never have to ask me where Krystal is. Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 51:42
See, that's something we 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 51:42
So. 

Rich Bennett 51:43
I don't know of any crystal shops around here. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 51:46
You don't have to. 

Rich Bennett 51:47
But then again, I have it locked. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 51:49
But I just suggested him. 

Rich Bennett 51:51
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 51:51
Don't worry. This is all me. Do that 

Rich Bennett 51:53
Well, 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 51:53
for me. 

Rich Bennett 51:54
thank you. See, this is why you two are so great together. 

It's. No, I'm serious. It's like 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 52:02
Well. 

Rich Bennett 52:02
with the stuff that you do, Wanda, and the stuff that he does, I can see, You know, it's. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 52:10
There's a synergy. 

Rich Bennett 52:11
Yeah. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 52:12
Of two of those coming together. 

Rich Bennett 52:14
So like the magnets. The magnets getting together. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 52:16
Destiny and we create transformation. So 

thank you so much for having us on your podcast. 

Rich Bennett 52:25
Oh, my pleasure. But I have to do this. I have to ask because it will end this way. Is there an if if both of you have two separate ones, that's fine. I love to hear feel good stories. Is there a feel good story that you can share about somebody that you have helped? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 52:51
Transfer. 

Rich Bennett 52:51
The sides meet today. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 52:53
Transformation is ongoing. And so we when you when you see people 

that tell you they're doing well and they let you know that they're doing well, that's the best feeling I have. It says, okay, you doing what you're doing for yourself. So it's it's not a one off. It's a continuation. It's a process. I mean, one of my clients just had an aha moment that she was repeating a old father pattern with a new roommate. And when it was pointed out, this is old stuff. This has nothing to do with your reality today. You're repeating that pattern that you learned growing up as a child, a survival mechanism. You don't need to do that anymore. You don't need to walk on eggshells. You don't need to tiptoe around. You don't need to keep repeating. She didn't see it as a repeating pattern. So that's just, you know, we chip away at the things, you know, It's never a overnight success. 

Rich Bennett 53:56
Right. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 53:57
It's a it's a process how we grow and transform and change. It's never ending. I'm still doing it. Major Yeah. And, you know, everybody is on their own journey. And I think to respect another man in his journey is listening to that man from your heart and not your head. 

Rich Bennett 54:18
Ooh, that's another shirt. 

It's another 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 54:25
We 

Rich Bennett 54:25
shirt. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 54:25
had to come back to the podcast to get those nugget of. 

Rich Bennett 54:30
Wanda, I it's weird, but I just said, you know how you can you get visions once in a while. I just had a vision. And I have a funny feeling. That woman you mentioned in the beginning when she got up and asked that question. I have a funny feeling within the next several months you're going to either run into her again or somebody from her family. 

I don't know why. I just. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 54:57
Maybe. 

Rich Bennett 54:57
It may have been something Christopher done to me and drove that energy up. It cleared my head. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 55:04
Well, you're, you know. 

Rich Bennett 55:07
I'm serious. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 55:08
That's. 

Rich Bennett 55:08
I did. I just had. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 55:10
Well, no, no, but was what was happening is going to start getting all of these downloads the way it is supposed to come because he is that that's he's. You're open. Yeah, you're open. 

Rich Bennett 55:23
Ooh, I like to. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 55:24
Yes. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 55:26
It just gives a whole different meaning to a podcast. Now I'm getting the downloads in my head. 

I like that, Wanda. See, I didn't say Wendy. I said Wanda. Wanda and Christopher is. Because I know there's a lot of cover. Is there anything you would like to add before we wrap it up? 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 55:49
I think we we said a lot today. So thank you. 

Rich Bennett 55:52
Oh, my pleasure. And those of you, make sure you go to the website which is dynamics of recovery dot com. Now dynamics of discovery, dynamics of recovery dotcom purchase the books and what are the books again. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 56:09
The Journey Within and Isabelle's Starry Night. The Magical Quest for Alchemy. 

Rich Bennett 56:14
When you purchase both of them and read them, make sure that you leave a full review on Amazon. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 56:21
Oh, that would be wonderful. 

Rich Bennett 56:22
BARNES Well, whatever. And I know you're going to fall in love with the books, which means instead of passing those books on to somebody else, buy them a copy as well, because that's how you help author printers. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 56:37
Thank you. 

Rich Bennett 56:38
Wanda. Christopher, thanks so much. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 56:42
We look forward to coming back on. 

Rich Bennett 56:44
Oh, I'm looking forward to it. It's going to happen. There's so much I mean, like I said, I've learned a lot already and there's so much more I got to learn. And I love learning. 

Christopher Mack & Wanda Webster 56:56
Perfect. 

Rich Bennett 56:57
Thanks.