#19: Ann Herrmann-Nehdi Can Help You Think Better
Ann Herrmann Nehdi started this podcast by saying “balance is a loaded word…and it’s almost impossible to attain…this exquisite balance.” Right out of the chute, we started this conversation by challenging assumptions and diving into her company’s research on thinking, resilience and managing change in times like these.
There’s no one I know who “thinks about thinking” more than Ann. She spends a lot of time working with senior teams as well as those in the “magic middle” of some of the largest companies in the world. The company founded by her father Ned Herrmann has provided HBDI Thinking Style Assessments for 97% of the Fortune 100. She has incredible insight into the inner workings of how decisions get made throughout these organizations – and it’s often different than it appears from the outside looking in.
In this conversation, Ann walks us through the model, describing our four “selves” and how those aspects of our thinking can work together to create a better whole.
Intro:
Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Well, there's boy, there's so many places to go with that. Well, the biggest takeaway, I think, is the idea of the expectation of balance. And as you were describing it, all of a sudden, I realized if I go into perfect balance of any sort, I'm also static. Yes. So I can't be moving. And so it seems like it's like what I heard you say is more of a correction, towards balance, and feeling this cue when you're out of balance more than ever finding some sort of magic moment?
Ann:
Well, yeah, and there's, you know, one of the things that we know is that there's a so when we look at our data and the work that we've been doing, you know, within ourselves, there's this, there's this almost a creative tension between those different cells I just described. Yeah, and those cells for Okay, so when you think about that, yes, when you think about so when you think about the, the analytical self, that's, that's, that's, like, where a superpower is all about understanding how things work and, and breaking things down and looking at the numbers and the data and getting into that. And, and that part of who we are, we all have, we all have, you know, an aspect of who we are, that looks at that. But for some people who've got a strong preference there that their real superpower is being able to ask the question, what what's most important here? What's the problem? And how would I break it down. And, and, of course, that that, you know, lends itself beautifully to certain situations, maybe not as effectively to other situations. So there's also that practical self. And they're the the superpower is really about that ability to pay attention to the detail and make order out of chaos and get things done and move the needle from here to here in a way understanding each step along the way. And to understand the risks and make sure that you're you're you know, doing some preventative thinking about what you might need to take care of. And again, this mode of thinking a lot of people have been pushed into this mode of thinking in today's environment with all the safety concerns and so on and so forth, can be very, very helpful. But in other situations, it can sometimes get in the way, that relational self is, is an aspect that I think, again, all of us have, but for some it's right at the forefront. For others it may be not quite as obvious and that part of who we are is really interested in people everything? That's the big question. You know, what's going on with me emotionally? What's going on with you emotionally? What is my intuition telling me about? What's happening around me? How do I most effectively connect and express with others. And I think right now, many people are feeling a need, and in many ways for you know, that, that better connection. And for people who's got a strong preference for the relational self, they, they're, they're feeling very constrained by the fact that they can't have all the face to face time that they might have, they can't go up and see somebody on the street and give them a big huge hug, like they might normally. But the superpower related to, to relational thinking is really about that ability to, to tune in to the, you know, your own emotions, and be very self aware with that other's emotions, and and what's going on and being able to respond with the right kind of empathy. And then finally, that experimental self, which is, again, part of, you know, something we all have is all about looking beyond the obvious to what's, what can I learn about the big picture? What's not been thought of before? You know, how can I think differently about something that everybody's been doing the same way for a very long time? How can I try something new? How can I discover something new, and, again, that that superpower, which is about seeing differently, pushing the boundaries, is, is again, extremely helpful in certain situations, and can sometimes get in the way and others? So we all have some balance and some tension between all four of these? And as you're listening, you're probably thinking, Well, yeah, that's me, or Yeah, that's a no baby, that's, that's my partner, oh, no, well, I think that's, that's my kid, or that's my boss. Because, you know, our strongest preferences emerge, and often are the clues that we see most, but we all have access to all four of those. And so when we talk about balance, it's about not becoming a prisoner of those preferences, it's not letting your desire for data, get in the way of your ability to have a deep, emotionally, you know, grounded conversation with your kid. You know, because there's not going to be data there. That's not a data conversation, right. And so, you know, being able to step out of that preference. So for me, that situational balance is what's really helpful, it's to know that you can go there, it doesn't mean you have to live there. But you can step out of that place where you, you like to live and, and, you know, be present. And, you know, in the same way that it's, you know, I have a strong preference for that experimental self, you know, it's not always, really the right moment to generate 15 new ideas about something when you're just trying to, actually, you know, you need to actually get something done. And it can be incredibly distracting and disruptive. So I'll need to step out of my desire to do constant discovery and, and actually focus on what needs to happen for a second, third, and fourth. So for me, you know, the opportunity that each one of us has, is to first understand, well, you know, where, where do I live mentally? And then, you know, then begin to understand where do I need balance? Where do I kind of get in my own way? And how is that working for me? And how is that not working for me? And within what can I do? Because, you, as I said, the beauty what we know from our research is that we can all shift between these different selves. As you know, if it's your team, you may just have one or two or three players on the bench more of the time, so you got to get them off the bench and have them step into the game. But it doesn't mean that you have to become a different person. Right. Right.
Lynn:
Right. Well, it's funny that you mentioned that shift because you know, I recall years ago when I first moved from Charlotte here to Lake lure, and I was an aspiring artist, and I actually remember coming to see you over at the Harman International world headquarters around the corner which was amazing. Everybody in Lakeland was kind of like what is that place?
Ann:
I never quite figured it out. I'm not sure if
Lynn:
that's who never went in didn't know what they were missing. I remember talking to you about you know, travel and what it's like to live out here versus living in cities and, and and my aspirations to be an artist and I left banking calling myself the spreadsheet Queen of the universe. And here I was an aspiring artist. So there's, you know, artists, by definition is going to be more experimental and less sort of rigid, although you can definitely see even in somebody's paintings, which way they lean. But you can make a difference between leaving my office where work would get done, and going down the stairs to my art studio, where play would get done. And what I used to notice is I'd go down there, into the new space, but my brain would still be in the old space, and I hadn't made a shift. And the first few years, I would go to my art studio, and I would organize because the left brain sort of get everything in boxes, put everything in order, and it took a lot to get me sort of flowing into that experimental self. And now, my art studio is an unmitigated disaster in terms of organization.
Ann:
Matter, doesn't matter, I doesn't matter,
Lynn:
I have no. Now, I will always have a question about that in a second, I want to ask you about that. But I as I go into my art studio, now, I'm so quickly into experimental self. And I can come upstairs and go into my computer and start working on spreadsheets that I can shift. So I feel like one of my superpowers has actually become the shift.
Ann:
Yeah, I think I think the shifting is, is, that's, that's where that's where the beauty resides, it's that ability to just again, when you intentionally consciously, deliberately, I mean, that's, that's, that's how I define agility. There's a lot of discussion of Agile out there, and agile, you know, there's lots of Agile processes associated with, you know, software development, etc. But there's this new competency that's emerged, and that has been around for some time, but in today's environment has become at the top of the list for most managers and leaders, and that is this idea of thinking agility. And, and that means that you can kind of on demand, as you're saying, you know, step out of, and I love the beauty of your example, because it is like stepping out of one room and going to another room, you know, the metaphor of a house, if you kind of think about, you know, living in a house where you have four different rooms, and you can step out of one and go into the other. But it does, it doesn't necessarily happen, you know, without some very focused, very intentional effort. And as you were saying earlier, left to our own devices in our brains are inherently lazy. You know, when I talked about that you and I actually had the, the thrill and fun of doing TEDx talks at the same time, as part of our local TEDx initiative, and one of the things I talked to talk about in that is how our lazy brains tend to be efficient, and that they just kind of go with the patterning that we're most comfortable with. So shifting requires energy, because it means that we're, you know, breaking out of that pattern, and needing to go to a different pattern. And that's, that does take effort. So I think one of the things that's, you know, that's great about what you're describing, is that I think what you now do, is you you get up and use as you're heading into the studio, you're not having to say to yourself, okay, now how do I get into the flow and have the intent that, you know, that need to work very hard to make the shift is no longer there, because you've created a pattern around the shift. So you're able to do that. And I think many people I'm talking to today are struggling, because they're finding that they're because they're working from home, many of them are, or they're working in environments that are so you know, so intense and stressed out, that they're, they're having a hard time sorting out, who's supposed to be showing up when and how, you know, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're getting a knock on their door in the middle of a conference call or a zoom call from from one of their kids and they need to switch out of, you know, work discussion mode into, okay, what's going on with my nine year old daughter, and what does she need for me on demand, and that is, that is something that most people have not been used to doing. They, they would kind of have it, you know, all kind of neatly planned, you know, I take my commute time, let's say, and I use that time to, to shift modes. Well, I'm finding that most people actually have, you know, not taken that commute time that they used to have, and, and kept it as a transition space. They've just made a longer workday out of it. And I think that that that's That's actually hurting many from having that opportunity to give their brains away in some space to make that transition. And so and on top of it, they're, they're just working a lot more. So, you know, I think one of the strategies that I recommend to people is that they, they really think deliberately about, you know, what are the kinds of triggers the kinds of activities that help me make a shift, maybe it's getting up and going into another room, and really having a clear delineation between where my workspace is at home, and where my other space is at home, maybe it is going for a walk, and getting out of your space and just giving yourself 10 to 15 minutes to just, you know, let your brain kind of unwind, maybe it's picking up the phone, and having a conversation with somebody who you know, is going to, you know, flip you into that mode, just by the sheer nature of the relationship. Maybe it is, you know, picking up a paintbrush, like, you might throw in a pot like you might you you've got lots of artistic things that you do, or getting on water skis, like you do, I mean, those are all activities that that, by design, are moving you into a different mode. So I recommend that people think about what different kinds of circumstances and activities trigger for them, and then get very intentional about using that as a way to facilitate this shift. And, you know, and it can be really disruptive, it's really hard for people to have to go back and forth. You know, sort of in the middle of the day, when they're not used to it, they used to be able to compartmentalize and say, okay, you know, I was gonna be at work for this amount of time. And now I'm finding that I'm at work for two hours, then I have to stop and deal with my kids and homeschool them for another two hours, and I gotta come back, and then get back into work. So you know, finding mind hacks that help you do that, whether it's space, whether it's people, whether it's activity, and and then, you know, just recognizing that you might need five minutes, you might need 10 minutes to do that, you know, don't book yourself so tightly in back to back zoom meetings, that you you literally have seconds to make the transition, it's not fair to yourself. So you know, set your meetings for 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 25 minutes, whatever it might be, and give yourself the mental space because it takes energy to do the shifting. And you have got those shifts, you know, pretty well, pretty well anchored between, you know, your your artist, self, and then your, your spreadsheet self. But if you were to take on an I know you've taken on lots of different kinds of projects in the course of your life, if you were to take on something that was completely different, totally out of the norm of your your, your your day to day. And today in today's environment, it might be difficult for you to shift because you might have to give up some of that artists time or give up some of that other time and take energy away from those to move into that other project. So just being really intentional and mapping out what are all the different areas of my life where I am, you know, finding myself making that shift? Where are the areas where I should be shifting? And I'm not, you know, am I really, you know, not taking 10 minutes to just wind down before I walk into the kitchen, and then being very present when I walk into the kitchen. So I'm not finding myself struggling and feeling like I'm stuck between, you know, still stuck in work mode. So I think I think it's a challenge because people are again, as I said, living in one space and trying to navigate all of those different modes, you're lucky to have a studio, that you can go to my father in the studio as well. And he loved the fact that his studio was in another building when he went off to paint. Because he he felt like he needed those 20 steps to go from one world of family to his art world. And he saw those as two totally different worlds.
Lynn:
Yeah, yeah. What's that? Oh, there's so many places I could go I have to tell a funny story because I was thinking about these different work modes. And this is pre COVID, of course, because back when I was in banking, and I had a guy work with me, and this is when I was young Jennifer was still probably two or three years old. And he came in to my office, I was asking him to do something and when I finished, I stay I somehow got in mommy mode instead of bank boss mode. And so when he finished or when I finished what I was asking him, I said, Okay, and he's like, six, six, big guy, and that's a walk out of the office and he turned around, and he got up on his tiptoes and he goes, okay and it was the funniest thing because I said, Oh my gosh, I just went mommy on you did and I go, yeah, it's okay, though I understand. But it just really brought home for me that we do have these different modes. And that if I brought the mode home of sort of how I would give directions to a bank analyst that's about to go analyze a business to my two year old and say, you know, here's how we're going to build the thing. And we're going to talk to her like she's that, you know, that wouldn't have been the right thing. But But here's the one, I want to talk about your dad in a minute. But I do want to ask this question, because in the shifting, I also hear another self, which you didn't name, I could call him or her the shitty self, or sometimes I think it's mom bitch, or the sanctuary. I've called it all those things. But it's that voice that like walks into my studio and says, you really should organize this, or the voice that I walked back into my office and says, you really should organize this. But the boys that shitty cell for the one that says, you know, and I did a painting, I actually wrote a blog about this a few. Maybe it was a year ago, I did a painting, where I broke a rule of watercolor. And I added some squash because it needed that. And, of course, the old sanctuary in my head, which was nobody that even really exists. But it I pretended like it was a real art teacher goes, Well, that's not a real watercolor. And you can't really do that. And you shouldn't paint like that. And none of yourselves that you described are that one. So Who the hell is that? And what do we do about them?
Ann:
Yeah, that's a good, that's a great yeah, the the year your aunt or uncle should come since it's a show up and they sabotage right? Often, you know, what it is that's going on. So that can be a wide array of things. And in many instances, it is the voice of some major influence that we've had in our life, that was telling us that we should be something different than we are in that given moment. For some people, it's parents, for some people, it's teachers, for some people, it's, it's their idea of, you know, the kind of person that they thought they should have been. And so, you know, they're attributing that to maybe an amalgamation of a whole bunch of people, but who are, you know, behaving in a way that's different than the way that you might naturally behave? And, and I think that that, again, that is, that is, I think it's it's noise, it's very much noise when you're in a situation where you're trying to make that shift. And, you know, sometimes, you know, and, you know, could it be that it's, it's useful, that, you know, you'll save a lot of time, it could be it could be, it could be accurate, it could be, well, you know, what, it would make a lot of sense to stop it into some organization, because you'd save time in your office looking for something. So that sometimes it can be accurate, but I think where it doesn't work is when it's getting in the way of our ability to, you know, intentionally move in a direction that may not be a direction that we're super comfortable with, or that's easy for us to shift to, and it can, it can be an impediment to our ability to just step into that. So I usually recommend that if enough people find themselves doing it, and that is, that's noise, you know, that what that often is, is that's, that's, you know, the voices that are popping into your head, you're doing something, and you start hearing these voices popping into your head, to just have a stop and think moment. So one of my, one of my, you know, I guess if there's, you know, there, there are a few things that you find yourself saying all the time, and one of the things I find myself saying all the time these days, is just take a pause and have a thought stop and think moment, because our brains are on automatic, we're just, you know, and you may have repeated that, you know, that should, uh, you know, 1000s of times throughout the course of your life, it may just, it's again, your brain may have just accepted this as part of the pattern. When you go into your studio, and you look and you see it's a mess there, there it is, pops right back up again, because you've almost programmed yourself to do that. So stop and think moment, is a way to just interrupt the pattern. And, you know, to just take a moment and say, just stop, just ask yourself to stop. And, you know, and, and reflect on what's going on in your head. You know, what am I What, what, what, what, where am I, you know, putting my mental energy at this very moment. And, in many instances, that's enough to just redirect. But again, that requires conscious, deliberate effort to take that pause. And, and just give yourself you know, 10 1520 seconds to regroup and say, okay, you know, is this something I really need to be listening to, or is this just noise? And you know, or am I letting my energy get reduced erected in a way that doesn't need to be. And this often happens, I like to recommend that people take stop and think moments when they're in situations of intense conversation with somebody else. And they find themselves going into a pattern of not listening to the other person, and just getting ready to say what they want to say. And you, you have to interrupt that, or else, you'll just keep doing it. And then the other person will look at you like, you know, okay, you didn't hear a word. That's true, because you didn't really or you heard the first four words, and then you launched into some other tape in your head or other recording in your head. Because you, you know, you were you were focused on what it is that you want to say. So, you know, it can be incredibly practical, it doesn't take a lot of time. And, and I often, you know, recommend that people, you know, physically shift their body position, stop walking, if they're walking, just take a moment to say, Where am I and of course, we use our model as a way to facilitate, because sometimes people are like, Well, what do you mean, stop and think, like, stop and think about what? Right, so if you need some structure, you know, the whole brain model, which is what I was describing earlier, with our analytical self, or practical self, or relational self and our experimental self, it can be a way to say, okay, where should I be in this moment? You know, am I am I stuck in the drama of the situation and my relational self, and letting myself get completely, you know, taken down a track that's not productive for me at this very moment? And should I be maybe intentionally stepping into my analytical self to just get, you know, some perspective and look at the facts. And so the the model is really helpful as a way to, you know, give yourself a framework around which to organize the stop and think moment, because in many instances, one of those voices may be coming from one of those other selves, right, one of those other quadrants, it may be that in your case, you know, this should be organized, that's that, that's that practical, you know, self saying, Wait a minute, you know, this, this, you can't possibly have an office that looks like this. And so, you know, knowing that you've got that model can sometimes be helpful for you to be able to, you know, discriminate and describe what it is that's happening in your head. And I had, I had some, a leader say to me the other day, and it was, it was kind of caught me off guard, because I wasn't expecting to hear this. But he said, he said, Yep, there goes mom again, right. And, and he would hear this voice and it wasn't really his mom, but he attributed this very safekeeping risk averse voice in his head. And, you know, and so, you know, he felt like he needed to just name it. So whatever it is that you need to do, to name it, define it, categorize it, that does help, because usually, these are patterns, and they're things that we've done again, and again, and again and again. And so that's why it feels hard to stop it. But just taking 10 seconds, 10 seconds, I mean, who doesn't have 10 seconds, right? to just stop and just say, What am I doing? Well,
Lynn:
it's probably gonna save you 10 hours of agony, or having your brain chew on you in the middle of the night. You know, luckily, I don't usually stay awake, chewing over things. But I have been known to not organizing my art studio. But you know, there have been things that keep me awake at night. And it's usually I think you just said something really important. It's probably one of those places you're not stuck in is kind of saying, Hey, what about me? Hey, what about this aspect? You know, you're missing something here, you're not actually stopping and problem solving in the analytical self, or you're kind of missing other possibilities. Because you're so busy being practical that thing, there's like three other ways to do this. And, you know, maybe if you look at it as something calling out as a way to say, Hey, have you thought about everything, as opposed to a judge? Absolutely. I think when we feel judged, we get defensive, we go into that shame spiral, we start questioning who we are, and none of that's useful. Be unbalanced.
Ann:
No. And I think that, you know, for most of us, right now, we're on edge. Right? You know, it's been a tough year. And, and that, that makes it even harder. I do think that everybody feels like the, you know, they're there. They're kind of living on edge a lot of the time, which, which means that, you know, we're tougher on ourselves, we're tougher on other people. And, you know, we're, we're not necessarily finding ways to, you know, maybe have fun in the way that we used to or get, you know, you know, get the get the and so I know one of the things I realized is I you know, is you know, I used to travel quite a bit. I mean, I was traveling all over the world. And sometimes, you know, a month or two at a time, I'd be out of the country. And so when when COVID hit I, I was like, Well, you know, I didn't know what to do with myself, I was so in for me, that was an important part of getting balanced in a way, which was providing a different kind of discovery on a regular basis, but doing it in a very practical way, because I was often working. And, and, and so, you know, I realized that I was getting pretty edgy, because, you know, my husband used to sort of joke, he's like, you're twitching again, you know, because I was, I was just not getting enough of that in my life. And so I decided I was going to, I had to figure out another way to do it. So I, I started doing what I write, I like to call my escapes, and, and it would be, you know, something that I just sort of say to my husband, okay, I'm escaping. And some might say, well, that's, that's not a positive word. But for me, it was incredibly positive. And I would just, just, I just get in my car, I have a few ideas of places I wanted to go that I'd never been to, within an hour to an hour and a half of where I live. And I would go discover what it was. And if I decided to do something different, I do something different. And what it did was it It helped me find a way to, to experience something that used to give me balance, which was you know, to take me, you know, enough discovery in my life to feel like I could get through some of the things that weren't quite as fun or, you know, as engaging. And so I do this on a regular basis. And, and it's, it's, it's actually become like almost like a challenge, because you would think that you would know, every place that that was within an hour and a half where you live, you would be surprised at the number of places I found, or places I hadn't been to, or places that that actually, I'd been to before, but I hadn't looked at in the same way. You know, and so I like to do photography, so I'll be looking at it through the lens of, you know, looking at photographs, or I'll be looking at it, I love to hike. So I'll be thinking about, well, gee, I wonder if I can hike there. So, you know, again, it's it's, it's again, being intentional, recognizing what represents balance for you. And then, and you know, and for me, that was overly skewed away, and then I started to see signs of it, because I was I was just getting so edgy. And I was really kind of living in a way that that where I felt so constrained. And so you know, it was missing this big gap, right? So I think taking the time to just reflect upon what's missing, and then you got to get creative about how you, you respond to it. Because today's environment doesn't mean it's always easy, right? You can't I wasn't just gonna go hop on a plane, right? And start traveling the world again, that wasn't an option.
Lynn:
No, but I did see your your Instagram page is amazing to follow because these colors and things that you find and we have a place near us called World edge. Yes. And you found out you're gonna have to show me this trail that took you to that amazing Vista, but you found like world edge. And it's like you, you know, you substituted getting on an airplane going to China to going to the edge of the world, just down the road from you. It's really amazing.
Ann:
It's really close to you. And It's was one of those things where, you know, I'm like, how did I not know about this? How did I not know that there was worlds edge? You know, but it is, again, it's one of those things where I never I wasn't on my radar is something that I you know, discovery. So I think again, I had to make a shift to get, you know, just as excited about, about doing something like that allowed me to say, you know what, discovering something, that's a 45 minute drive, it's a place I've never been to that might hold something very special, and maybe it won't and maybe sometimes it's it's it's different from what you expect. completely different. So I you know, I think there's a there's, in other instances, I've had people tell me that they feel that, you know, they're not getting enough space to feel like they can actually plan and control what's going on in their life because they're just so busy with kids and work and this and that they just don't have any mental space anymore. So whatever it is that's lacking for you from a mental space perspective, I recommend that you that you say to yourself, okay, define it first, what is it and then and then get creative around how you can fulfill that it might need to be slightly adjacent to what you would normally do. If it's not available to you now, and you know, another way I get that sense of discovery is, is with my three year old grandchild who is just, you know, completely boundary lists in his joy of, you know, encountering anything that he hasn't seen before. And so going on many adventures with him, can be just just as fulfilling as finding the world's edge. So I've, you know, had to find different ways to satisfy that, because I really was out of balance. I was not, I was really feeling kind of trapped and, you know, unhappy. I was doing this. I it I was, you know, all of a sudden, it was like, oh, that wasn't that hard. It wasn't that hard for me to do.
Lynn:
I think a lot of people are I think they're feeling trapped and unhappy and missing hugs, and the sort of almost like, there's an underlying question, because the pandemic is new to all of us. And it's like, are we doing it? Right? And, you know, the, to me, the answer to that question is, if you're surviving, yes, you are, because we we don't have a playbook for this. And so I love that you sort of started making up your own playbook for what to do with what you call twitchiness, which I think everybody can identify with. I bet everybody when you say twitches, like I'm like, Oh, yeah, I know about that. Well, you
Ann:
know, we urge that urge. And we we did we did a study on resilience not too long ago, that we're gonna be published launching, you know, within the next week or so, where we asked people, what were the strategies that they found most effective in dealing personally, with with a pandemic, and a very large percentage of people said that they, that they, they were spending time reorganizing their home, their space their life? And, and when you look at that, you know, you might say, Well, you know, you probably hear people telling stories of this all the time, you know, I've, you know, I've expanded my house, I've redecorated my liver, I completely redid my office, I did this, like, I organize my files, whatever it might be. And I think it's, I think people were doing that, because it gave them a sense of control over something that is something that we can control. And so, you know, I think for me, that, that we started the conversation with this, that idea of having a feeling of autonomy, a feeling that I actually do have control over something is, is really important. And I listened to a friend, Dan pink is a great author, if you haven't read his stuff, I highly recommend it. And the other day, he, he was sharing in one of one of his little mini videos, one of the ways that you can actually get yourself to do something that you don't feel like doing. And, and it's all because it gives you a sense of autonomy and that and he was using the example of exercising, of course, it's January, a lot of people are thinking about, okay, do I need to be exercising all that kind of stuff that we often do in January, and you know, I have to go exercise, I have to go work out, I have to go, I have to go run in the rain or whatever it might be, I have to, I have to. And he said if you just change your language to, I get to go run in the rain, I get to, I get to reorganize my office, I get to, you know, spend time with, you know, with with my kid doing their homework, that what that does is it really helps your brain reframe something as simple as going from I have to, to I get to, because it gives you that feeling of autonomy and that ability to feel like, you know, this is something I'm choosing to do. Not something I am you know, some other greater power is forcing me to do. So, you know, they're they're little ways little things that we can do little mind hacks that we can do, you know, have a stop and think when we change your language about what it is come up with, you know, something that, you know, feels like it is, you know, taking away the twitchiness. You know, there are things that we can do, they don't have to, they don't have to be, you know, big projects. In many instances, I find it it's these little things that are making a difference in people's lives today.
Lynn:
It's so funny that you say that because just the other day for several months, my laundry room had become the landing space for some things to the point where I couldn't even see what was under there. You know, I just knew there was and I kept saying to myself, I'm going to tackle this project. I need to get this organized and then I'd find something better to do and it was pretty much anything is better than
Ann:
that. It's been amazing.
Lynn:
And I had it in my mind that this was gonna be a multi hour huge thing. So I we had a rain The day last week and I kind of like my pottery was drawing and I didn't have, you know, the all the things that I could be doing suddenly vanished. And it was like, okay, just go in there and do it when I kid you not 15 minutes later, it was mostly done. And I said, You mean, I have been putting this off? All this time, this giant, you know, so our project for 15 minutes of organization. And now I'm so happy when I walked in the laundry room, and I was thinking about how many times I've walked in the laundry room. With that, I thought
Ann:
the dread,
Lynn:
wait, I have to do this at some point. And so it, you know, it's funny, because I've just kind of had a similar shift to that, in my mind, where now I'm looking at little piles of things, you know, other landing places that need to have a little magic worked on them. And it's like, now I get to do that. And,
Ann:
and I get to get that, that feeling of satisfaction when I got there the lady knock that out that it's clear. Yeah. And it's, it's, um, because there is it feels really good. Once you've done it. You never, we're not sitting here, they're not gonna complain, Oh, God, I did that there was like really happy that they did.
Lynn:
I'm looking at a cleared space that I made not too long ago over here in my office is same way I look over there. And, you know, it's actually two different things. It's a cleared space. And it's also a place just waiting for me to try to land something else in it. So it's sort of like balancing that. But you know, the big takeaway is, you know, you're really showing us how you can control how you think and what you think, you know, our thoughts aren't just, like, given to us by somebody else that we're supposed to, like, believe we can actually might change our minds.
Ann:
Well, and I think it really starts by paying attention to what is happening in your head. As I said earlier, you know, brains are lazy, we get into patterning, we just go on automatic. And when you think about all the things that you do on automatic and you know, the good news is, you know, that's, that's great. I mean, you don't want to have to think really, really hard. When you're, you know, you know, driving your car, right? necessarily, I mean, you want to be able to get in and know how to turn on the car and how to steer the car. So you know, that automatic nature of our brains serves us in many, many ways for tasks that you are going to repeat again and again. And again. And and and you know, you don't want to relearn each time. But the this notion of breaking the pattern of finding your understanding, what are your patterns? Where do you tend to go most? And then how are those working for you? How are those working for you and stopping thinking when you get trapped in that pattern saying, Okay, and then mind hacking your way out of it by finding, you know, either some a reframe, through language, shifting into a different mental mode, going from analytical to relational, or whatever that shift might be. There, these are all things that we can do that we do every single day. And it's, it's, you know, you can either sort of just, you know, let your brain kind of run things, or you can own what it is that you're using that very precious, very precious energy for and, and, and take it in the direction you want it to go. And that is within, I think it's a message of hope, because it's within our everybody's reach to do that. And this is what
Lynn:
that is where we have autonomy, we did not get to choose, I just wrote my New Year's blog about this, we do not get to choose the storms that come our way, we just don't. And the level of pressure and uncertainty that we're facing these days is unprecedented. And we don't get to choose that. But we do get to choose our response and how we think and it's obviously easier said than done. But you're giving some very practical ways to do this. Now I want I had a bookmark in this and I do not want to let our time run out before. I just ask you a little bit about your dad because he founded Harman International. Gosh, was it over 50 years ago?
Ann:
It was getting close 40 it'll be 4040
Lynn:
years ago and so could you just describe a little bit about what made him decide to found this amazing resource that's been involved in pretty much almost every fortune 500 company or fortune 100 somehow you know you work with them. And and he started this from his own sort of experience duality describe how he came to this and and then how you came to it because not every daughter follows in her dad's footsteps and and you're really actually created your own footsteps. So
Ann:
just say a little bit about that. Sure. Absolutely. So he he sensed this duality within himself, you know, the the the he was he was a double majored in college music and physics and, and he he always wondered well, like, those are like two different tribes. You know? Different places on the campus, like I've come very different kinds of people and thinkers, how come I tend to, to be able to work with both. And so throughout the course of his life, he kind of looked at that. And as he was head of management education in general electric, he was actually tasked to begin to understand, you know, in what ways they could better solve problems. And so, he began to look at that, and at the same time, in his personal life, he had become a late in life artists due to an illness, again, one of the storms that he didn't select, and had, you know, started to paint. And so he was, at a personal level, trying to understand, well, where does this problem solving thing come from? And where does creativity come from? And why am I able to paint and maybe somebody else feels like they can't do it. And at the same time, looking at cheese challenges, he went, and because he was a scientist looked at the brain, you know, I got wired up to the eg for testing as a kid, he was testing everybody,
Lynn:
anybody in your, in your TED Talk, which I will link to in this.
Ann:
And and and so basically, what he did was he uncovered this notion of an understanding of the the degree to which we basically build our brains throughout the course of our lives and build that patterning that I was talking about earlier. And that evolves and continues to grow throughout the course of our, you know, childhood into adulthood, and even later on. And so, you know, I think this is really interesting. For many people, he really started the most important part of what he considered to be his life's work in his late 50s. Left, GE started the business, it was sort of taken on a life of its own, he developed an assessment because eg was not going to work for a lot of people, and wasn't very practical. an assessment tool called the the hpdi, the Herman brain dominance instrument, which is kind of how we first met. And, and it has taken on a life of its own. And so, you know, in partnership with GE, he, in exchange for, you know, for some, some consulting for about a decade, he took the IP and set up this, this company, not really with the knowing exactly where it would go, but he sensed that there was something that, that he could bring to the world to help people better understand themselves. And this again, that's why we were in Lake Louis, because he was going to retire there. So he was living in a retirement home at the time, this really took on a life of its own, the business began to grow. I was living in France at the time, and became interested in it ended up coming back to work with him. Because I began to see the relevancy of what it was he was doing after. So after starting the business, and France came back and, and worked with him. And now my son is CEO of the company. So we're actually in our third generation at this point. So we've gone from dad to daughter to son is interesting. And is it's, it's, it's been, I think, for me, one of the things that that he he represented, and his his quest was always to understand this, this inherent quality that we all have, which is that we do have these different specialized selves within us. And and, you know, how do we understand that value that what happens when we're under pressure, one of the things that he discovered along the way was through the hpdi analysis was that under pressure, we often shift our thinking, and it becomes part of our automatic shift. And so you know, many people right now, our resilience study showed that 60% of the people we, we, we asked, who are familiar with their hpdi data said that they're living in their under pressure profile right now, that because of all this change, and turmoil and uncertainty, they're actually thinking and under pressure mode versus their regular sort of day to day mode. And, and so, you know, part of what he his quest then became, how do we give people tools to better understand what's happening in their heads so that they can take that, and, and, you know, improve their lives, their work lives, their personal lives? And, and that's, you know, the last 20 years of his life was devoted to that. So, you know, it can happen at any point in your life, right. So,
Lynn:
that's actually a very helpful story of somebody who, like built his business, his real business and his last one years.
Ann:
Yeah. And he it was, it was You know, the most fulfilling the most gratifying not that being a physicist or being head of management education or whatever it might have been in other parts of his career were not rewarding and satisfying. Or being an artist, for that matter. This was it. This was it. So I think that notion of, you know, staying open to the things that these changes are driving us down, I mean, the the the storm that came into his life was a pretty severe illness. That's what drove him to paint, the interest in creativity drove him to look at the brain because it was a passion for creativity. So all of those things are connected, and how do you take that storm, and use it as an opportunity to continue to grow and evolve as an individual? And that's the good news, we all can our brains evolve, we're not set in stone. And
Lynn:
that's that, to me, that is the best news is that we're not set. And if we have a pattern, we can break it. Just a simple stop and think moment can start to do that. You know, I've called it before arrest and redirect, which you use very similar language, right, can redirect those thoughts, but you first have to be able to arrest them. So yes. And and so what's happening with you now? What, how what's your role in the company? How are you? So I know you're, you know, you're always going to be a leader. So and I'm sure that provides challenges itself, because your son is the CEO, but you're a leader as well. And so how, what's happening there,
Ann:
so I'm, so I'm chair of the board and chief thought leader, and it's an interesting arrangement, because it's chaired the board, my son reports to me, but his chief thought leader, I actually report to him. And, and so that creates a, it's a balance, right, we were talking about balance earlier. And, and so I spent my time really continuing the research, and working with a product development team, I spend time speaking and doing public speaking and writing, and so on, and so forth. And promotion of the work, and then I could, and it's as a matter of fact, is taking on the CEO role has allowed me to do more client work than I'd been able to do in years. The senior leadership teams of, you know, major organizations, helping them, you know, better the potential that they have, at that level, and when you think about the brains at that table, and the, the incredibly important energy, time, focus and cost of, of the thinking, that's there, you have to be able to understand it. So that you can, you can unleash it, and, and, you know, executive teams, in today's environment, it's just got incredible pressure on them. So helping helping them break through is a big piece of, of what I get to do now, which I'm very lucky.
Lynn:
That is awesome. You know, I've done as you know, many, many sessions with the hpdi with leadership teams. And one of the things and I'm sure you taught me how to do this exercise, but it's to have them stand in the space of their self that they most prefer, you know, stand in the quadrant, practical, analytical, experimental, relational. And then I always have them start with the one they prefer, you know, this, they're under normal conditions, and then once they're under pressure, and what I've noticed is people tend to come I call it go to their corners. And, you know, at the time, you need to be a team the most, the pressure makes them divide. And so I would, I would really feel like, they must see it as being such a huge gift to get to work with you, so that they can sort of go against their nature, which is really more of a survival nature. And, and, and go into their better thinking selves at times when the pressure calls for them to be better thinkers.
Ann:
Well, and, and to understand what those behaviors been, and to have empathy for their colleagues when they make those shifts and to recognize what the opportunity is in that shift and the challenge for themselves. And and so just being able to understand, oh, well, you mean, you're, you're doing that because that's, that's how you think you're not trying to be a jerk, right? I'm not doing that to, to push my buttons, you're actually you know, that's a shift that you make. And so, you know, part of that is it's also just also part of being able to build a strategy that addresses each of those four different areas because any, any, any business needs to be able to, you know, to speak to, you know, you know, the analytical are we making money ROI aspects of the company, they need to be able to execute flawlessly they need to understand their customer and their team and their community and then they need to be able to, you know, car Have a path that allows them to be strategic and position themselves for future success. So the model translates itself very effectively. And so a lot of the work that we do is translate that personal understanding first into now, what do we do with this, and it's all about applying it to, in most instances, the strategic planning process is a very powerful way I have used
Lynn:
it, I had an organization that will we did there, the senior leadership team, we discovered all but one person was high in the experimental self in the, you know, the D quadrant, as it's called. And it was found, you know, if you just know that you can predict they are always trying new projects, they were always looking at in the future, they were not very grounded in the current numbers, they were not very clear on what their, you know, current cash flow was or things like that, except for the one person who was more in the analytical quadrant. And they kind of saw her as you know, the sky is falling person who put the numbers out and say, Can y'all not see, you know, all this is happening. And as I worked with the CEO, in that circumstance, you know, what she came to realize is, I have to call all of these parts out. Now, eventually, that management team had to completely get reorganized, because most people didn't want to leave their preference, and get grounded in the numbers and get grounded in the practical and strategically Think about that. So she remade the management team, and it actually renamed the company. So it was, it was a huge turnaround as a result. But you have to have the balance thinking in every company, no matter what the company is,
Ann:
especially at the top, I think that there's a, you know, and when we look at the implications of almost every organization is going to have not only the need for these four different perspectives, but the representation of these different perspectives across the organization. So being able to leverage, you know, really put that that whole brain, so to speak, thinking power to work, is the opportunity. And so, you know, having having the the model is a common language is often the secret sauce. And they can you know, and so you'll see the teams that are using this will say, Well, you know, I need you to come over to that analytical stuff with me just for a moment, please. So that we can begin to make sure that we've got the data that we need, are, what about the customer, we've forgotten about the customer, you know, we've got to, we've got to step into the shoes of the customer and really understand what their perspective is. So it gives you a common language around which you can navigate and begin to describe, do some gap analysis. And so that's really the power of what it's about and, and find balance, either within yourself, through your lesson,
Lynn:
the idea of balancing that there's nothing worse than having somebody who doesn't have anybody around them, and they're stuck in one quadrant, whatever that quadrant might be, you know, and not having sort of thought through all the different places I know, every time I sort of, I can almost feel it click when I'm in a situation where all the thinking styles are kind of hitting on all cylinders. And
Ann:
well, and there's a really simple way, though, for people to they might be saying, Okay, well, this is great. And you know, I don't know what my HPI is, you know, there's a real simple way. For questions for questions that you can ask yourself, if you're sitting there, you're wondering if you're, if you're skewing in one direction or another, if you need to ask yourself, what is the real problem at hand and get very focused on that that's gonna begin to engage your analytical brain? What are the facts? What is the data, I need to understand? Why is this important? And and why do we need to know about this for the future? Who is involved? Who is impacted? Who do I need to engage? And then finally, how do I begin to address this With that in mind, and what are my next steps? So we started with analytical, we went to experiments, we got to really hang on, then we end with practical, that's those four questions can allow anybody to step in, as you were talking about almost physically, like mentally step in to each of those modes. And, you know, I worked with a leader for Candy Company years ago. And he basically said to his team, I want you to work through the answers to these four questions before you come into my office and ask me for my recommendation. And you'll find that most of the time, you may not even need to come into my office anymore, but I will send you back out because I you know, you haven't thought it through. So this is a great way of thinking about thinking something through is by stepping into that we call it the whole brain walk around visiting each of the quadrants. What is the real problem? Why is this critical? And you know, what do we you know, important for the future? Who is involved engaged Do I need to pay attention do and how do I best take action at this time? Very simple, very strange and amazing way to like,
Lynn:
let our brains work for us instead of against us too. And then I love it. Well,
Ann:
absolutely.
Lynn:
So one of the questions I always like to ask my podcast guests is, what would you ask of our of my audience? Like, what would your request for them be to improve themselves to create more balance to sort of live more of who they really are? Because that's one of my quest is to unleash, you know, sort of who I really am. So what would your request for my audience,
Ann:
my ask would be to start by, you know, first of all, give yourself a break, because everybody is in, I don't know, a single person who's not feeling the pressure of what's going on in the world. So in today's environment, just give yourself a break. But after you've done that, after you've done that, take the time, every day carve out, thinking time for yourself, that might be to become more aware of what your preferences are, that might be to be able to better transition from one mode to another that might be to fill a gap, like I do, when around discovery that might be but build in that time, calendar it, calendar, thinking time, if you don't calendar it, it won't happen, your life will be consumed by this that call that the homework project, whatever, put it on your calendar. And you know, the if you can do it every day, that's ideal. If you feel like you can't find a lot of time, then start with 15 minutes. But take that, you know, build in that opportunity to have a stop and think part of your day, to just let your brain do what it does best. And you know, you don't tap into it yourself. That to me would be one of the most important things that I would encourage people to do. Take back your career,
Lynn:
right? We all have to that's well, you know, I you know, that that whole idea of how much time do you have I used to talk about when I was facilitating, like early leader meetings that people were like, I know, I don't have time, I don't have time, I'm like, if you look at it, you know, that's your choice, you have eight hours in a workday, let's say that's 96, five minute blocks. So let's just round that to $1. If I said, Hey, could you give me a penny, you'd give me a penny, you throw them in the little thing at the store, when they say get a penny, get a penny, whatever, right? So take a penny, five minutes. If you look at it that way, and by the way, you got three of those blocks, because you can't 24 hours. So there's a lot of blocks in the day, a five minute blocks, and you can give yourself there are?
Ann:
Well, a great mind hack is to stop scheduling your meat, don't let whatever platform you use, automatically take, you know, a full hour for your meetings. You know, it's basically we're defaulting to the software default, just change your default to 25 minutes, 25 minutes instead of 3050 minutes instead of 60. Now, occasionally, you'll run over, but you know, everybody will be happy. Yeah, you did that. And most of the time, we can we can, you know, we don't have to challenge whether you need a meeting at all. But I do think that that, that that's something that I do, and it's amazing, you'll find, you know, you you build that in once every hour that you get 10 minutes.
Lynn:
Well, and you know, I guess the old therapist model was that it was always 15 minutes, and they got the 10 minute break. So take, take a lesson after that. And I've never done therapy, but I knew it from watching TV. But, you know, take a minute to know, the 15 minutes is a better hour, you know, and give yourself a break. I think I saw a report the other day that actually said it was some neuroscience research that said giving yourself a break is the first thing to do, it's actually not beating yourself up. You know, because we do beat ourselves up. But if you don't do that, then you actually give yourself some energy to go solve the problem. Instead of beat yourself up. You know, you get to choose where you put that energy.
Ann:
Absolutely, and it's managing your energy that I think is one of the biggest challenges managing your energy and your attention is is is one of the biggest opportunities that most people have. And I think that, that that notion of claiming the time that you need, so that your brain can function at its best is a good strategy for you. It's a good strategy for your company. It's a good strategy for your family. You know, you want you got to take care of the system that helps us do everything that we do every day. And I think we take it for granted. And so you know Take that time. Now build it in. And I'm not I'm not, I'm telling you, if you, if you if you schedule a 15 minute meeting, not only are you going to be happier the person,
Lynn:
I'm going to start doing that now, although we've gone over 50, this podcast, we did schedule an hour and a half, though. So we did, I do really believe that the I'm going to start doing that, because you know, you just work tends to fill the space it's given.
Ann:
And so, absolutely, and the meeting will take as much time as you give it. So you know, first check, ask yourself, do I really need a meeting? Do I really need a meeting? Is this something I can handle another way? Because people are meeting down? And then you know, instead of a half hour meeting, make it 25 instead of an hour long meeting, make it 50. Instead of a four hour meeting, make it three and a half? I mean, you know, challenge yourself? Could you could you cut it in half? Could you but always leave yourself enough mentoring space that you can so be transitional.
Lynn:
So how do people find you? What What can we find you on Instagram? Can we find you on LinkedIn? Tell me about your platform?
Ann:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I think Herman is our website. So it's Herman is eg RR Ra. And so think Herman is our website, to our students, you can google hpdi. And that'll take you there. I'm at an Herman on Instagram, and then you can find me on LinkedIn, as well. And Herman ne D is my full name, Ivan, any HDI. But again, Herman with two R's and two ends? And you know,
Lynn:
and I'm going to include a link to the books, you all have to list those books that you have real quick.
Ann:
So yeah, we have the whole brain business book, which I co authored, which is the primary book that I think I would, I would I would recommend. And then, of course, you can link to the TEDx talk as well, which is a great recap. Again, TEDx is a great example, to give you the gap. 15-17 minutes, that's it you got to be able to do it. S when you do that to yourself you say, I've only got 1 minutes for this. It's amazing
Lynn:
Well, for the people for you, I remember sharing this with you, as we were going through the experience of our TEDx talks of having coaches, take what we thought was so simple and saying to us, now, what do you exactly mean by that? And how can you say that in less words? And it'd be like, the last words, no, we need even less words. Oh, man, it was amazing,
Ann:
It was an amazing experience. So take what you would normally do in 30, and cut it in half cut the time in half. It's amazing. And your work. So those are all great, I
Lynn:
can't wait to link it.
Ann:
To my good people, I haven't seen
Lynn:
them. And, and actually, interestingly enough, I have finally, after five years written a book about my TEDx talk, you were way ahead of me, you already had a book. But it's coming out in the next couple of months. It's called the elegant, uninspired mood for navigating corporate politics. And it's about assuming positive intent, which was what my TEDx talk was about. But I finally decided to just write it all down, because I think I was tired of having to put it in 15 minutes. It's like, Okay, I'm gonna write a damn book about it. Because I can say all I want in my own book. So
Ann:
well, that's great. I love the elegant pivot. That's wonderful. That's what I want to do. Also, just acknowledge one more thing before we close today. And that is one of the gifts that this crazy time has given us. As an me, as I think about what we're doing is this, this, we had been talking about cognitive diversity for 40 years. But when one of the things that's been happening is that we've been part of many, many diversity initiatives and organizations for years. But this idea of cognitive diversity is one that I think is so relevant, right now, around bias and what's going on. And it has been a gift to us as a company because we've had powerful conversations as an organization. We've created tremendous resources on our website, if you're interested in that around looking at intrinsic inclusion. We've got a great inclusive leadership playbook. We've got great resources on remote work because we actually have a remote company. So what has happened in the last, you know, the last year has is in many ways been a gift because it's given us an opportunity to look and focus. I'm so
Lynn:
glad you mentioned that because this has been a very difficult year for a lot of people and a lot of ways and You know, I don't think you can solve problems until you go to the root of the problem. And it's about so much more than skin color when we talk about diversity, because it's really about different belief systems and different ways of thinking, and we don't want to go there, it feels unsafe. And you're making it safe to talk about how we actually, not only do you think differently, but we can, and we should be able to think differently. And
Ann:
a difference is normal. And it adds value and it creates, creates incredible creativity and innovation. And so it's a it's a, it's, you know, it's one of the things that I'm most excited about is to watch.
Lynn:
Now, I wish we could have a whole nother conversation we may have to do around it, because there's a whole lot there that we are not going to impact today. But I cannot thank you enough and for joining me for this people are gonna love this conversation. And everybody who's listening, be sure we've got that feedback button on when parents calm at the podcast button for you to punch that button and send us a voicemail and let us know what you thought about this podcast. So look forward to seeing you on the car, everybody out there and stay safe people. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
Listen On
