#21 Michèle Stanners on Building Bridges of Reconciliation
In this podcast, Michèle Stanners shares her journey toward reconciliation with the First Nations people of Canada, provides a masterclass in the art of deep listening and demonstrates the value of taking both and artistic and pragmatic approach to facing the challenges of diversity. Her book and podcast of the same name “Unsettled” explores the path to reconciling unconscious bias and racism and build bridges of understanding.
TRANSCRIPTS ARE AUTO-GENERATED
Intro:
Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. For his episode, I'm speaking with ichelle stanners of Alberta, anada. Michelle and I met hrough writing and community. t's an akimbo workshop where 've been a part of and she's een a part of since June of ast year as we are writing our espective books. She calls erself a cultural strategist, iversity program designer and reative brand amplifier. Okay, f you're like me, you're ondering what the heck that eans. Those are definitely not ob titles you hear every day. ut when you listen to this onversation, it's going to tart to make some sense. It was conversation of moments from he first question, where she alked us through different evels of listening, including evel four listening. And then I ecided to challenge us to be evel four listeners and hold hat standard, to the very last oment of the conversation. No ressure there, right. So she ffered an inch. At the end of he of the session, she also ffered an incredible, nsightful question to ponder hen something feels off in your ife. So this this whole onversation from the very eginning was just magnificent. ait till you hear how she andled my phone ringing in the iddle of the podcast. She odeled what she teaches eautifully. So Michelle has ncredible actionable advice on ealing with that inner voice hat chatters away whether we ant it to or not. We talked bout handling fear, which we ll have, whether we admit it or ot. And we just talked about ery practical ways, including, or example, the phone call, the hone ringing, just practical ays of continuing to be entered and present and who we ere born to be. Much of her ork now is around her book and odcast of the same name, nsettled. And this is where he's curiously entering the orld of reconciliation with the irst Nations people of Canada. er connection is through the rts and you know her just on alking on that subject her deft andling of a question about the wo different worldviews said ore about her than almost nything else could have. But ere's here's what her bio says bout her. She is a nationally ecognized culture leader and ation builder with over 30 ears developing the art and ultural landscape of Canada. hrough her consulting practice, he has been a thought leader nd collaborator in key cultural lanning within Alberta, ncluding providing strategic irection, and leading multi takeholder consultation for the rovince of Alberta and creating he provinces cultural policy. he's a pioneer in indigenous elations launching in 2000, the rossroads program for the anadian unity council advising nd leading the making treaty even cultural society following he tragic, tragic passing of ts founder, which we talked bout. Since 2015. She's eveloped a unique arts and xperience based methodology to uild bridges of understanding owards reconciliation. This was very important part of our onversation. Michelle led lberta ballet through a rebrand nd provided strategic advice to CA D Now, Alberta, University f the Arts, Crow's Theatre in oronto, and the hone ins nternational Piano Competition, nd chief crochet owls have the uit. I hope I say this right, ue Tina nation. As a volunteer he's currently engaged with a umber of strategic priorities or the International Women's orum. She's a founding and oard member of future a 20, a ew collaboration between female eaders and influencers from lberta and Quebec to identify he next big ideas to advance omen's issues. Michelle is a raduate of Harvard University nd accomplished pianist and cts as a mentor to a number of rts and culture leaders through he business for the arts. I eally hope you enjoy this onversation as much as I did. I ant to hear what you think. And he easiest way for you to share hat with me is to just go to he podcast page on my website ynnCarnes.com/podcast, and then click the Send voicemai button it's on the right ha d side of the page. It's sup r easy to do. It lets me know hat you're thinking and what you like about the differen episodes so I can bring yo more of what you like. And if y u like this episode, if reconcil ation is on your mind, if the a ts is on your mind, if reconnec ing yourself to the land is n your mind, share it with you colleagues and friends. So enjoy this episode with Mic elle stannars. Michelle welcome to the podcast.
Michelle:
Thank you, Lynne. It's wonderful to be doing this with you. And it's funny how the stars aligned sometimes, but our cross our paths crossed in a very grateful. It's
Lynn:
amazing how our paths crossed. And I've got to tell how that happened in a second. But I actually was reading, you write some interesting things on LinkedIn. And I read an article that said, want to be a better negotiator, Zip it and listen. S when I was in corporate Americ and got 360 feedback, I ofte would get led needs to learn t listen. And yet here I am in world where my job is to listen But I feel like you take it to whole level of mastery beyon that. So I want to rea something that I want to read a excerpt from that article, an then have you helped m understand what level fou listening really is? And mayb even level three and level two So here's, here's what you said And I'm just this is an excerp as I sat and listened. I quieted the ongoing chatter i my head, stopping me from tendency to been given opinion prefigure how I might answe cease listening to formulat that answer, or simply wande off to another world. It is scientific fact that we can onl have one consciousness event a a time. As I sat and listened, noted that the person I was wit since being valued, I had surprise that they were actuall being hurt. People really lik being around me when I practice level four listening. I als rarely said things that regretted later, and I felt goo about the conversations. So tel me what is this level fo listening? I don't want to hea what that really is
Michelle:
Well, I'm glad you you, that's interesting that you pick that particular blog post out and I originally was going to call it shut up and listen, and that just was a bit too harsh. And I thought, zip it might feel a little more, a little gentler. But it really is about listening. So this came about, we can talk about listening actually, even as it pertains to staying present, because I think that is the key for me that has become the key to my, my happiness, and my peace of soul and all of that. But so what are what are the tricks to staying present? You know, I need tricks and hacks, because it's not my natural go to. So listening is on. It's in the toolkit, but it's one of the most important tools. Because we are always really listening. We're always in a, in a state where we are listening to something, there's always sound around us. So whether I'm listening to the person I'm with, I'm sitting with you now. And we're we're talking I could also be listening to the voices in my head. And we all know that those can can be dominant sometimes. But let's go back to this idea of listening. And this came about, I was at Harvard, and I was doing a master's in theological studies, which, for me was a more of a master's in humanities, right at my agent stage. It was 10 years ago, I was in my 50s. I had an MBA and a law degree. And did I need another degree? Probably not. But it was really my own. You know, my motto was, you know, like, Michelangelo at the age of 87. I'm still learning. And there was a course offered by Otto scharmer. Over at MIT. It was a six week course. And one module, one of the sessions was devoted to listening. And he spelled out he sent us on and they said, your homework for the week, you're going to go and find someone that you don't know, very well like, and it could be maybe it's a different, it's a conversation you're going to have with someone and you are going to just probe them and ask them questions about themselves and listen. And he walked us through these four levels of listening. So the first one he just called like, it's like downloading and we've all been there. You might be at a cocktail party and someone started talking to you, but you're over looking their shoulder to see who else is in the room example. Or maybe you know, mom calls and she's talking away and you're busy cooking or whatever. But you know, you want to talk to mom and you want to make sure she feels okay. But it's downloading there's nothing that really there's no connection there. The second level is where you're actually hearing something you've heard now you're hearing what the other person is saying and whether or not you know how much you registering at that the third level is where now, you've heard you're hearing what they're saying. But you're also you're you're in interpreting it, you're internalizing it. And so now you're at the deeper level. And the deepest level of listening is where both parties are now engaged in something generative, there is a change that's actually taking place. Because of that deep listening, and care and attention and presence. And I'll share this story with you. At the same time, as I was in this course, I, for some reason, decided to try online dating. Okay. And that didn't last very long. But let me tell you what happened. As a result, I thought, well, I'll just try this listening exercise with, you know, this fellow that I'm going to go have a coffee with. And, you know, I was earnestly listening and asking him questions about his life in his past. And, you know, if he went into anything I was listening and, and, you know, well, guess what happens when you really listen to people, or they fall in love with you? It takes about five seconds, because people are so unused to people who pay full attention to them. Well, that caused me a little bit of trouble here, because I had to sometimes it wasn't exactly, you know, it wasn't what they call a match. So I had to kind of feel addressed that as well. But it made me realize in that moment, that tab was listening.
Lynn:
Okay, so
Michelle:
I don't tell that story too often. Because the whole you know, online dating ticker, whatever, I love it anyway.
Lynn:
Okay. So I think it's always useful if you're going to do something hard to have a payoff. And if the payoff is having somebody fall in love with you, this could be very useful. But it sounds like it has a double edged sword, because you probably didn't want all of them to fall in love with you, right?
Michelle:
Well, they didn't all fall in love with me. But you know what, okay, so my dad died over 20 years ago, but the anniversary was last week. And it I remembered my the one of the because I went back to look at the eulogy I had written. And most of the people who talked about him, it was this gift that he had, of paying attention to one thing, whatever he was doing, he paid full attention to that he was not the guy at the at the cocktail party that was, you know, that the kind of the, the chit chat he sat in the corner. And people were attracted to that. And he'd sit with them and have a conversation, one on one with them. And that's why they loved him. Everyone loved him, because he his whole attention was on that very thing in that moment. And there's a real, that is a lesson in life for me that if I can, you know, stay present. And listening is one of those tools. It has enormous benefits.
Lynn:
I, I have so many places that I'm thinking of there. But it's it's interesting, because what I want to do for this conversation, I decided, as you were describing, being engaged in a generative conversation is I'm going to shoot for level four listening in this conversation, right? So I'm saying that out loud, everybody who's listening will get to find out if they really think I did that. Because and what I hear from about your dad, I have always been the split attention person. And the person that can't stand small talk in a in a setting. So for example, in college, I was all of my college notes are full of doodles. And it actually maybe you could call that split attention. But it's the way I actually listened. If I wasn't doodling. I couldn't listen as well, because the doodle would anchor me to what was being said at the time that the professor was talking and I made straight A's in college I did really well because I could almost go picture my notes. And I go Oh, yeah, next to the little duck I drew drew was the answer to that question or whatever. But I've always felt like I was, and people will tell you, I'm a look, there's a bird person too. So I actually have to be careful not to look out the window while we're recording this. Because, for example, we have a bald eagle that flies by and I've been known to be in the middle of a deep conversation and go Ah, there goes the bald eagle. You know, so I have that split attention. But yet at a cocktail party or any place where people are doing small talk, I can't, I cannot abide it. I go find somebody to have a deep conversation with getting a corner and do what your dad did. So we're going to challenge me to do that today in this and not interrupt as much because I listen to myself on these podcasts. And sometimes I interrupt more than I wish I would.
Michelle:
You've just said so much there that you you've had there to two begins In what you've just said the doodling. The reason the doodle worked, the doodle was a symbol the doodle puts you into your right brain. The doodle is what opens your spirit to a different perspective to something, which is what I've been working on. This was the big insight I got at Harvard, thanks to taking an amazing course called cultural agents with Professor Doris summer, the power of art. Okay, for for change, like that moment. And you can, that can also is what you said about the ego. It's a it's just a, it's a sublime moment, it can be a butterfly, on that lands on a flower, it can be that Eagle, it's, you know, why do I Why do I have an orchid plant at my meditation table, because I can just stop and look at that orchid. And I am now in a completely different space. So we can get to that. But let's, you know, this business of doodling. The reason that worked for you? And in times of I advise everyone, if they're asking me like, what should I do right now, take out a piece of paper and some crayons, always have a box of crayolas around and just draw the thing, draw do something because when the artist can't solve the problem, the art will. So
Lynn:
I want to hear that so exact, what does like I got chills. First of all, I was feeling like a little embarrassed about my doodling. And all of a sudden, you showed me what it was doing for me. But I get chills with the idea of what you just said about art. So do say more about that, because I think it lines up with a lot about what you're about in terms of cultural reconciliation. But say more about this art thing, because this is fascinating.
Michelle:
Well, there's a, I guess, the best story to illustrate this, if you want to really go big about the power of art for social, engaging art for social movement and change. And this is the seminal case that we studied at, at Harvard in this cultural agents course. And that Professor summer, Doris, I'm going to call her door. She's my pal. She wrote a book called The work of art in the world. And it was the mayor of Bogota, back in the 90s, when Bogota was at the most dangerous city in the world. It was it was inadequate. Traffic can take place, everywhere. 1500 deaths per year were just traffic deaths. These were people who got run over because cars wouldn't stop at intersections. So when he when the the mayor he was then a professor and his antenna smokers decided to run for mayor he promised that he would deal with this. Okay, he's gonna deal with this as a platform promise. And he wrote, he actually campaigned on a campaign of it was all around love. And you know, everybody kind of thought, well, that's kind of weird, but he won. So he I don't think he expected to win, but he won. So now we had this challenge. And it took after a few months, none of his policymakers were able to come up with a solution. And he was sitting there with this story goes, and one of the maybe it was his grandfather was some an elder uncle said, Well, when I when I can't find the answer, you know, send in the clowns. Send in the clowns. And so what did he do? He decided to replace all of the police the traffic cops who were mostly corrupt. With mines. Yes, pantomimes, mimes chalk face, bowler hat, you know, big floppy shoes. And he put them at intersections, and they had signs and if the traffic stopped, they flip up a sign that said, correct. And if they didn't stop, they put up a sign that said incorrect. And the traffic would stop. And people said, Well, wait a minute. Surely, they had guns? No. They issued fines? No, they were doubly unarmed. With neither words nor weapons. The traffic deaths were cut by over 50% in the first year. Because what happened? Is it that bit of art that that that that symbol, that change in perception that what happens When you see a clown, people stop clutching their purses, people stopped acting out of fear. Then he did a number of other amazing things he issued to everyone who wanted one a little card. And on the right, it was a thumbs up with a red, the red thumbs down, and a green thumbs up. And that was basically was playing on soccer, because that's a big soccer community and the thumbs down kind of is a red card. And you could you could just if someone did something that wasn't right, that cuts you off, or whatever, in traffic, you could use one of these cards. And then he painted stars on all the intersections of Star Wars, everyone had been killed by a traffic accident. And so if you were stepping into an intersection, you would see the star, so you would think twice, and you'd look. So these were all things in what he called it, he developed a citizen ship culture through these artistic interventions. And I mean, I think Bobo does having trouble again. But for all for 15 20 years, it was like it was the safest place to go it was a wonderful place t visit. So these are the kinds o interventions that if we ope our minds to those options, i really it creates a whole ne menu of options, policy options You know, when we're as leaders strategic options, if we with w dare to be brave enough t consider an artistic o experiencial you know, immersiv experience to create som change
Lynn:
The picture I got when you were describing the MIME, and the cards and sort of that kind of art intervention was something where somebody painted the stairway, like a piano. Yep. Yes. And when people started taking the stairs, just as simple as changing the look. And of course, it's obviously good to take the stairs. But But the thing about bravery. So you and I, you know, I came out of the corporate world, and I actually I was known as somebody that would bring fun in, I had a project where I made everybody rearrange their desks after we hit a big milestone, so they'd not be seeing the same thing every day, get the monotony out, I would have days where I said after a big milestone, this is a no work day come in, we're going to rearrange our desk, we're in a play trash can basketball, hallway bowling with big pieces of paper. So I actually sort of had exercise that kind of bravery. A little bit. But every when I when I did it, I always felt sort of like I was almost too risky. So and I think I got a reputation a little bit as it I'm not sure if it was a good one or a bad one. I don't know if it further things or not made me happy. But what would you say for somebody that wants to exercise that kind of bravery? Is that just part of the price you pay? Or how do you? How do you add a you make sure the bravery doesn't cost you too much?
Michelle:
Well, this is why very few politicians will engage in this because the risk is far too high. Okay, but as individuals, so what I the way that I'm attempting to do this now is I will pilot something, I'll do it at a very small scale, which isn't a bad way to just approach anything, actually just pilot it, test it out, do a little prototype, find a group of people who may want to participate in this unusual exercise. Because what happens, and this is I have never had any one of these these attempts fail is that they are blown away by the change that they experienced. The what they learned about each other, the environment, it creates an environment of trust and why. So for example, let's say you need to bring people together and they there, they don't know each other that well there. They may know some of them may know each other but and they know each other more at the boardroom level, right. So we all know what our backgrounds are. And we might know if people have children or not, but we know who they are on paper. So I'll ask them rather to introduce themselves by I don't want really I want to find out what the background is that that kind of background, I'll look on LinkedIn and we make that very clear. Talk to me about an ancestor or a mentor. That you know, was the most influential. Okay, that's, you know what, Lynn? That's a bell.
Lynn:
Isn't that?
Michelle:
Okay, so let's, we'll just, we'll very quickly talk about bells because bells are another wonderful you're making
Lynn:
it right that my sound off turns on
Michelle:
the sound the sound of a bell All day we there are bells around us all the time, whether it's the phone alarms we're driving, it could be the horn, it could be there all kinds of bells, make the sound of a bell, the reminder to bring yourself back. Oh, that's brilliant. So that bell is simply so don't worry. Okay, thank
Lynn:
you. You're just so funny though, because right? What people don't know is I mentioned that in the last podcast I did. I turned my phone off the vibrators on. And the phone rang anyway, and there it went again, but she just helped me like clear that is a problem.
Michelle:
That's amazing. Well, Lynne, even before we before we hit the record button, you said to me, I'm turning off my phone, because
Lynn:
Anyway, let's say you needed to be here, hey, walk me through the like, Oh, my gosh, if I was really a professional podcaster, I would not allow my phone to ring in the middle of it.
Michelle:
Wow, professional to find it. I think I've listened to your podcast. They're excellent. So this idea of how do we how do we introduce I just say, I say I suggest, okay, introduce yourself, I want to hear about an ancestor or mentor that made a difference in your life that really impacted your values and beliefs. And when someone starts to talk about that, and their grandmother, or it's a whole different introduction, and it creates a creates an environment of trust, and we're learning about each other in a different way, which, at the end of the day, if we're going to work together, that's the level at which we want to work, right? Otherwise, we're siloed, we're still siloed. And stop jet is not as generative as it could be. It's not optimal. Right? Another wonderful thing to do, and I use this a lot, actually, if we're going to do an exercise where a visioning exercise, for example, where do we want to be in five years. And I could ask, I could have asked you to do this, maybe I should have just to use that as an example. Find an object in your home, it can be an artwork, it can be a piece of jewelry, it can be a trinket, find an object that for you, represents where, you know, our vision for this organization in five years. And they speak to the vision through this object. Oh, I love that. And I'll tell you, what comes out of that is extraordinary. Because, you know, the person walks in with the talking stick that they've got in Africa, and that to them means that everyone has to have a voice, and that we need to be diverse. And you know, it because it opens up another side of our brain, and it gets us into our right brain rather than the analytical data data based, linear approach to to what we're doing. And rather, it's much more expansive. Right. So and we can, you know, we can, you know, devise, we can create these types of these these types of exercises that can get us to where we need to go a whole lot faster.
Lynn:
Dan pink, wrote a book, I think he What did he call it? Was it a whole new mind?
Michelle:
Yes. Did I have it? Yes. What I
Lynn:
said was, the people who are going to succeed are the ones that can get out of the step by step or the things that have already been solved. And actually at Harvard, Ron Heifetz, and Marty linsky, with their leadership on the line was talking about adaptive versus technical challenges. And it's sort of like a technical challenge is something we can solve with our current repertoire. And we know the steps and, and in Dan Pink's way, I think he said, if you if it can, like be made step by step, like I came out of college as an accountant. So I was a tax preparer. And I love the puzzle of putting together a tax return. But a computer can do that much better than I can. And guess who does that now, like TurboTax, nobody's actually no accountant is actually hand filling out any tax return. You just plug in the inputs, the computer spits out the result, you don't need that anymore. But this other side, where we're actually asking people to solve problems, either that haven't been solved or that require changing our beliefs or our assumptions, or diving into something that's deeper than the surface meets this eye. Using items like you're describing, it seems to me like those are the muscles we really need to exercise for the problems we're facing today.
Michelle:
Well, it's interesting you mentioned Ron Heifetz. So when I was at Harvard, I took the adaptive leadership course With millions, and it would end thanks to Dean Williams and Doris summer, they allowed me to organize a four course seminar on arts and leisure. So how could leaders begin to explore this repertoire, broader repertoire of options, by engaging are Wow, for policy and change. And it was fascinating to see these students that came from all disciplines at Harvard up all the, you know, the graduate schools, from engineering to law to divinity to business, Kennedy School, who came together and to learn about this. And, you know, it should almost be, you know, mandatory. It should it should be, it shouldn't even be an elective. But we're not, we're not quite there yet. And that's all right. The the most valuable thing though, I took for me out of the adaptive leadership course, was they made us all dissect a leadership they are. And this is something that a lot of people, when he first said that, okay, I'm on changing to audit. I don't want to do that. I just I am. I am not.
Lynn:
Look, what was it? What why would you not want to dye it? Because I know why we might not want to dissect a frog. I remember biology. I was one of the kids that did but lots of people did not want to dissect a frog. But But what's wrong with dissecting a failure? What was repellent to you about that?
Michelle:
Because Because the wound was still very, because
Lynn:
then we're gonna ask you to dissect your failure.
Michelle:
Yeah, my own failure, you had to dissect your
Lynn:
own failure. Well, hello, that's another that's kind of like cutting your own gut open.
Michelle:
Okay, pretty nice. I see that we're opening the wound and having a good salt in there. I, I learned so much from that exercise, that, you know, one of the great things I learned about leadership was, for any leader, the answers are in the mirror?
Lynn:
Wow,
Michelle:
the answers to any challenge that I'm facing in a leadership role are in the mirror. And if I'm prepared to, to really look at my role in what's going on around me, first, it's a relief, because I'm stopped trying to change everything that isn't going the way I wanted to. That's usually an exercise and failure, an exercise in, not in failure, but frustration. And it's to be able to really, subjectively and with compassion is I can't just look at the whole situation and say, all right, what is it that I can change? What can't I change right now? And also, you know, what, why, why is there a resistance to change? I mean, when we're in leadership, we're creating change, pretty much always unless we're just maintaining things. And that's just management. Really, leadership is about change. So and how do we exercise that? And how, you know, what resources? Are we going to a mass to get to where we need to go? And how are we going to use those that we have and acquire those that we don't? And where are the gaps and all of that. So the the key there for most of time, and that's it's systemic with the system may not want to change it, I may not want to change why because I'm afraid I'm afraid of losing prestige, or power, or money. Those are usually the three things that I'm afraid of, of losing prestige, slash reputation. And so that requires some really deep
Lynn:
so we had talked to you mentioned, how many of my podcasts are talking to people with horses. And the exact sentence you said, for any leader, the answers are in the mirror. Because leading riding a horse is actually being its leader, and a horse is looking for a leader. A lot of people don't ride horses, trying to be their leader, they try to be their manager, they try to lead with dominance, they tried to leave with force fear and intimidation. With mechanics. I know this because I've been there, but you could use the exact same sentence with working with horses, which is the answers are in the mirror. And what I have found in confronting my own crap, and in helping other people confront their crap is that we tend to want to justify and prove why what we're doing is okay, or can't be any other way even when it's not working. Especially, especially, I'm seeing this in the white privilege questions that are asked myself included. When somebody first brought white privilege, like a war, you mean and I'm gonna, like, justify and so forth. But the thing about horses is, I don't, I don't, they don't care what I look like, or what my skin color is or what my resume is. What my prestige is, the only power I bring to a horse is my presence and my energy. And that's all they respond to. And they're big. They're 1200 pounds sometimes, and you don't make a 1200 pound horse move, if he doesn't want to. And I've seen I've witnessed this is I've taken different corporate clients to work with, with horses, and I, I had one guy, big, strong guy, the horse just stopped, and he had no tools in his arsenal to move that horse until he checked in and looked in the mirror. So this is really profound. And as I think about myself and every other leader, looking in the mirror, how do you get past your own defenses? to own what's in the mirror?
Michelle:
Well, I had an extraordinary experience the other night, I had a friend come over, and we've been working together, and she was fully capable of identifying every behavior that she was doing that was getting in her own way. It was astonishing. I was I actually quite shocked by her own capacity. Her her self reflect,
Lynn:
I was gonna say that self awareness defined right?
Michelle:
Define, but she still just said, I can't stop this. I don't know why. And I said, All right, what are you afraid of? Because usually one of those three things, right, and it was exactly those three things. It was, I'm afraid. If I don't control this, if I'm not in charge of this, if I'm not doing it, if it's not being done, right, everything reflects on me, it's gonna affect my reputation, it's gonna affect my money I'm making, it's gonna affect my career. I don't know what I just said, Okay. Let's just take this to, let's just take this, roll this tape to the end here. What would happen if, if you didn't make a cent for the rest of the year? What would happen? If you lost this job?
Lynn:
Oh, good.
Michelle:
You lose this job. Somebody takes you out for some reason, or, and she sat there. And I said, What do you think? Let's talk about how you got to where you are. And we talked about her past and her upbringing, and their resilience, and the sense of right and wrong. And her her commitment to fairness, her discipline, everything she had been through, I said, these are, these are the things that no one can take away from you. These are the things that are at the core of your reputation. They're at the core of the the the wealth and the affluence that you're experiencing there. They're at the core of why you are so good at what you do. You did what you all have that will never no one can take that away from you, your education is an investment. That, again, all of these are, these are the makings of this this incredibly wonderful, beautiful human being that will be able to take this to whatever it is you would do next. And it was interesting, because there was a whole question I said, so what if you were disbarred? And then when I said it, I knew that that was an impossibility. You know why? Because you can't get disbarred there was she is not of a nature that would do that would behave in a way that would get herself disbarred. That was impossible, but I thought we're just going to go there just for the fun of it. And to watch this transformation happen with a long silence, she with me, she says, You're right. You're right, why am I Why am I letting all of this even bother me. And when you can get to that point, the the the weight that is lifted from your shoulders from our shoulders. And I've had to do that because it's often our whole, our it's our ident our identity is so tied, to how much money we make and what we do in that title. And that the fear of losing that is what can cause all kinds of maladaptive behaviors that aren't necessary that there aren't necessary at all, because left our own devices without these wounds and patterns. And, you know, we do extraordinarily well. We don't need to control everything, and it just becomes unnecessary. So Well, I've only learned that over time. It was I didn't learn that it wasn't 25 years ago that I learned that it's been over.
Lynn:
It is something that we learn over time and I know there have been some learnt lessons. I've I've At my stage of my career, it's like, man, if I had known this when I was 35, you know, steeped in my corporate career and fearful of losing or looking bad, you know, losing the job I had or looking bad or, you know, almost like I would not be able to get back again, what I had already achieved not recognizing something, what really struck me about what you said is, in a nutshell, you said to her, the person that brought you here will keep you going, because that's yours, and nobody could take that away who you are. And so don't be afraid, if you have a setback, because it's just, you're going to be right back where you started, because this is who you are.
Michelle:
And, and just, you know, you have to get away from this. Also, a lot of times I hear people that are when they're talking about what's happening to them, it's like people are doing something to them. You know, I call that the tornado thing. tornado is beautiful, you know what a tornado is going to do, if you want to get in front of the tornado. Okay, at that point, it will impact you. But the tornado is not doing anything to you. That tornadoes, being a tornado is part of nature. It's just nature and a person and if any other individual is there doing what they do. So why, you know, I've done my Why is this bugging me so much? You know, why is this bugging me so much? Let's go back to listening for a second. Another little trick I use is, if I'm having a conversation, if whatever's going on in my head, I ask myself, is this person in the room? Is that you know, the person I'm having the conversation with all in your head? If they're not in the room, if they're not in the room, there's something wrong? I really, I really have to say, Okay, well, clearly, it's not about that person. They're not even in the room,
Lynn:
right? Unless you've let them in your head. And
Michelle:
in which case, you can disinvite them, Darren, yeah, now they're living for rent free in the penthouse up there. And I really have to kind of just Whoa, what, what is it? Why am I in this conversation at this moment with this person who's
Lynn:
in my head, but boy, that's the right way to look at mind chatter. I have a I've written on this a couple of times in my blog, because I was, I was painting something as a watercolor artist, you're not supposed to use anything. But watercolor if it's a real watercolor, but I painted something for a friend, it was not going to any watercolor competition. And yet, as I was putting on some wash, which made the white go over the watercolor, rather than saving the whites, I could hear, I'm not even sure if it was a real art teacher in my head. But somebody who ever taught me watercolor, somebody was going, that's not good, it's bad, you can't do that. And of course, that that artists wasn't in the room. And, and yet, I almost didn't finish that painting. And when I did add that it made the painting look so good. Because I broke, and this artist, you know, I can't even tell you who it was. So obviously, they're not in the room. So that's, that's exactly brilliant way to look at it, though, is I'm very practical, because a lot of us in our heads, it's like I remember arguing with my early coaches. But this is not what my parents taught me. And, you know, the assumption I had, I guess, at that time was that my parents knew all and could teach me 100% of everything I ever needed to know. And I feel like I put that same pressure on myself for my daughter's like, I'm responsible for teaching her everything she needs to know. Well, if that was the case, she would have homeschooled her whole life I would have been terrible homeschooling mother. So obviously, we need other people to teach us besides our parents.
Michelle:
And actually, so why, you know, why do we meditate? Why is this this has now become a big part of our culture. It started with yoga, these Eastern Eastern philosophies have come over to North America started with yoga and now writing meditation people don't have to sit around you know, things the Oh Michelle, can you teach me to meditate? Oh, I can do that with my eyes closed. Haha, no kidding. And the idea of meditation is really to sit there and Quiet. Quiet our mind it's a it's an exploration of our mind and our consciousness. And it's no more than that. And it's quite fun to observe what's going on in there. Right? Like, oh, what is going on in there? So when you're having that conversation, that conversations going on in your head, you've got your your your parents are in one room and the teacher the teacher, we don't even know who teacher which teacher it was, but, but if you you can stop that and say, all right, what is this really about? Oh, this might be a question. About how I'm going to do my art. So let's just calm down, and, and not be in that discursive shatter that's getting in the way. Because the whole point of this exercise is what is it that's getting in the way of me being my highest? Why? Like, how can I make my greatest contribution, all these little things are getting in the way, right? And, and they, they cause me to suffer. And I don't mean on the cross suffering here. But it's just enough that it's a malaise or a discomfort that I want to deal with. because it provides me with more choices. I have choices when I'm not in my, you know, cluster of fears and wounds, and patterns that are maybe maladaptive. And I tried to not no blame, no shame, don't get into, you know, beating myself up about these things. They're just there, they're part of me, I embrace them as I embrace all the really good things. And let's, let's just see what we can do with this little bundle of assets, you know, the off the rack world, no alterations, well, you know, here I have, here I am. And, you know, I, and, and most of the time, if I want a relationship to change, I, when I change, everything around me changes isn't
Lynn:
Isn't that amazing?
Michelle:
Isn't that amazing? Like I just say this, it's like, you know, you got you want to wear that dress? Well, guess what, you're going to have to lose 20 pounds to wear that dress. So if that's the dress you want to wear, then you know get at it. So if I want to have this relationship, and somebody is really annoying me, but I've made it the point. I remember after my dad died, and my mother was, you know, difficult. And we had a difficult relationship. And I made a decision that I was going to get along with her. And I told her so we are going to get along before you die. Very dramatic. Okay, very dramatic how I said, I asked her how old are you? She said, I'm 75. I said, Well, you're going to lift at least 85. And between now and then we're going to get along, you know, and I realized in that moment, and I had to change, which was fine. My mother is now 94. And she's my eyes. So I just got really, and I you know, I, I am going to really miss her. She's not going to last forever. But I changed what I needed to change. I didn't turn myself into a pretzel. I just came to accept her for who she was. And as I changed, it was generative. We both became better people. We both became better people. Wow. And why you know that? This whole thing of you know, I'll be happy when I'll be happy when you know, I'll be happy when that person changes. I'll be happy when this I'll be happy when that well, I'll be on my deathbed going on Darren, I'm not happy at what happened. So I tried to just go No, no, I'm going to be happy now. Like these are the good old
Lynn:
every moment. One of the one that I've really had to learn in the last especially the last three years as I've been in this journey of dealing with pressure and uncertainty and failure after I fell off the horse. That's why a lot another reason horses are such a big part for me. And that's pretty severe injury is that to learn to go frame by frame and realize that when I have a goal, wanting to achieve that can actually get in the way of my current happiness, it takes me away from presence makes me beat myself up when I'm not doing it the way I want, which makes it only worse. And when I can actually like in joy, the moment I caught myself putting up my vitamins The other day I was getting out, you know, and quickly putting the lids on. So all of them were kind of half screwed on and not really screwed on. And I realized if I took that into my day, especially if you take that attitude with the horse, they get very nervous. But instead I went back and I pulled all the bottles out, I took a half a second and I put the lids on and it wasn't about having the lid on the bottles. It was the way I felt as I slowed down and was present to what I was doing. That made me have a good day. And it was so simple.
Michelle:
And this is why I love tick, not Han the Vietnamese Guru electromech. And a yeah is amazing. He's written hundreds of books 100 watts, at least and he's you know, fluent. He was because it was a French colony. So he's fluent. His French, Vietnamese English speaking and he's a poet. He's actually he's a poet in my view. And he writes so beautifully and he's got lots of great tricks, you know, chewing your food 17 chew every bite 17 times. Okay. Well, that'll bring me back to the moment. You know, now I'm cutting the carrots now I'm brushing my teeth, just what you said now and screwing the top on the bottle. And and another good little trick, you know that I often will practice when I'm feeling myself get a little bit off is noble silence, and you just do everything in what he calls noble silence. So spend five minutes, whatever it is you're doing in the kitchen in the bathroom, without trying to make a sound, you will stay very, very present. If you are trying to not make a sound to me, like it's just a me,
Lynn:
I used to read books when I was a kid. And I really liked books with nature. And oftentimes there would be somebody who lived on the land, particularly like Native Americans who knew how to move through the forest with no sound. And they will walk without you
Michelle:
reading my mind. Oh my God, when we're on the exam, I was thinking of the First Nations people we call them First Nations up here. And with their moccasins, they wouldn't break a twig. Right? Like noble silence. So just
Lynn:
getting chills again.
Michelle:
Well, because they're, they're totally connected to nature they had to be. And we can go we can talk about that too. Because that was a game changer for me too, was this exploration of first one
Lynn:
is that we didn't have any we've got we've here, we've been going for a long time, and haven't even touched on the thing that made me really want to talk to you especially I did want to talk to you about listening, of course. But this, you have a reconciliation project going, you're writing a book. It's called unsettled, which is a brilliant title has so many aspects to it. And you're also going to do a podcast, as I understand. So tell me about this book, this reconciliation work you're doing and what turned inside of you. That made you want to understand the First Nations people which is, I guess, the language in Canada for the same thing that in America we call the Native American people, the the indigenous people of this land, and every land in the world has had its indigenous people. And all of us come from the indigenous people. But some of us have gotten separated further away. But say more about what you're doing here.
Michelle:
Well, it's interesting, because I started it started when I found an arrowhead on the beach. And I was five years old. And I everybody had talked about these arrowheads, you know, people finding arrowheads, and I didn't really know what that meant. And it didn't matter to millions of arrowheads, because, you know, the indigenous people were here a lot. You know, we've been here, what, five 600 years. They've been here for 8000. It's up. There were people who were here for 8000 years who had like us, they had a system of education, they had economies, they had spiritual beliefs, they they had relationships they had they govern themselves, they had rules of governance, they had organizing principles. But they had a very different worldview. Now, I've learned all of that since the arrowhead. When I find one now, when I've got a collection of them, by the way, I pick it up. First, I've just figured Oh my god, it found me I didn't find it. And I think to myself, the last person who touched this was 4000 years ago, as a human being who made this or used it to kill an animal to eat. Or if it was a tool because there's also tools, they used it to skin something. And it opened up a whole new world for me of a different a completely different worldview than the colonizer, which is us, you know, who arrived here on the shoulders of the Doctrine of Discovery? And again, no blame. No, just it is two different worldviews. And I'm just learning so much every day by exploring how these millions of people lived on this continent. With from a philosophy and a worldview that was based in the land into being the land as mother, you know, we're all about conservation ism. Right now. They were the first conservationists, they truly understood that without, you know, without an understanding and respect, and honoring of the land that as a species, we probably wouldn't survive for a long time. And so I think that, that one of the tragedies of colonization, and there are many, many, many, but is that we didn't really think we had anything to learn from these people. These humans, they're huge. They were humans just like us. And we have so much to learn. So that's the fun that I'm having now. And I'll tell you, I call it fun. But it has had its moments because it's forced me to re visit my own beliefs. And, you know, you've talked about privilege, we could talk about privilege, there's the whole the whole big piece conversation around that. It's led me to consider consumer consumption, how much what I'm consuming the decisions I make around consumption, my motivations. And that I'm hoping the day I'm going to write about my journey of reconciliation, which, incidentally, was punctuated every aha moment, was the result of some artistic or experiential, an experience. It was either a poem, a piece of theatre, the sweat lodge, an elder telling me a story, the face painting, whatever it was, that was that opened up, created an opportunity for me to see things through a different pair of eyes. And as a country, and candidates, it's pretty big issue for us. We've had our Truth and Reconciliation Commission or calls to action. And, you know, we really do need to address this but we're, we're trapped, we're in our we are like I I'm in my gut, my mourning this cultural blindfold, that I'm trying to slowly remove, so that I can maybe see things differently.
Lynn:
No, there's 1000 places we need to go. But I want to actually, I want to ask you the worldviews. Could you say in a nutshell, the difference between the two worldviews
Michelle:
that you're saying? Well, I have, I want to be very careful about that. Lin, you know why? Because I would almost rather invite listeners to go and start to look at this themselves. Because I'm a white person. I'm a white person from a westernized colonizer mentality. And now I'm going to try and share. What is the worldview of an Indian culture
Lynn:
that you didn't live in? How could you know,
Michelle:
it's almost impossible for me to do that? Or? I can't I do know that we come from a worldview where land is an economic unit. Okay. Right. Land is an economic unit, it's an acre or a block, or
Lynn:
it has a value title that tells pieces about owning, okay, yeah.
Michelle:
Right. But that was not part of the indigenous way of understanding their connection to, to the world and land was not an economic unit, there were territories, and people shared it in different ways. And, and, and, and lived in treaty, they found a way to coexist, but they never no one owned land. So there's, that's one difference. So you know, really invite people to go and explore that and read about it and, and learn more about it. That that would be the key difference. And everything emanates from the land. So I'm very careful, I've learned to certainly learn that me trying to superimpose my interpretation on someone else's culture. It's just misguided. Really.
Lynn:
I mean, you just, you just really articulated that very well. So you mentioned the art and the different ways that it reached you. Can you think of a particular incident where you knew this was something you had to go explore further that something just, you know, after the arrowhead and kind of maybe even as an adult, or whenever it happened, that you just said, Okay, I can't just let this lie anymore. I can't just let this day as is.
Michelle:
You know, I did a minor in North American Studies in university and I, you know, what, 30 years ago, but one line that stayed with me, the professor who said this problem, this Indian problem is commonly called the Indian problem. The problem is that there's no solution to this problem. And I just wasn't prepared to accept that I guess at some level. And so I made it I think then it was okay. How do we Why do we need to bring some people together here we need to bring bring people together around the table. We are to two separate solitudes we are two solitudes. And we have the French and the English that that separation issues a whole other one with Quebec. But we are now our new challenge I think as a as a nation is these First Nations and our Anglophone Francophone, Western nations that need to somehow make treaty in a real way? Like, how do we really come to coexist now? And so it can be anything from attending a sweat lodge, where you say, where it was, I just had to ask myself, wow, this is an extraordinary experience. How does this compare to our rituals? Right? These are, it's just a different, it's a ceremony, it's just a different ceremony. And they're the parallels are all there. There are parallels in every aspect of First Nations life and our life, how they approach all these different sectors, education, you know, boundaries, the economy, art. So the so I could name you, I could talk about so many different examples. It could be a poem, it could be a theater play, it could be, you know, work. So I thought, Okay, well, if that worked with me, then we need to create some artistic experiences that are going to move people. And so I proceeded to start to kind of try to engineer or, you know, create a methodology around this. And it it's working, you know, to some degree, I'm just hoping that Nick, keep working. So your
Lynn:
methodology, is that going to be in your book is are you describing? Or is it a? Is it is it is like me who say, Okay, now I feel the fire to Want to know more? Does it give me a way to go dive in myself? Or is it a guide? What is the
Michelle:
one, it will be a guide? I think it'll be a guide for individuals, but also a guide for organizations. And it's, it's how do you create an experience or an event to help people move from one, maybe one, one level of understanding to another, to create bridges of understood
Lynn:
create bridges of understanding is, is that the subtitle of the book?
Michelle:
No, I'm working on the subtitle, it's going to be something I'm still wordsmithing that but it's, it's a curious Canadians journey to reconciliation through art and experience. So it's not exactly that, but the book will talk about the power of art, the impact it had on me. And then. So that's basically the twist of the book might be a little different.
Lynn:
What is the art that most touched you? Was it a poem of visual art? What was the
Michelle:
it was a large scale, two and a half hour, three hour theatrical play large scale theater performance that was created by my late friend, Michael green. And it was it explored the history of First Nations in southern Alberta where I live, which was the experience in many areas of Canada, the colonizer experience leading up to the conditions leading up to the signing of treaty number seven. And it explored everything it explored the decimation of the Buffalo, it explored the spirituality of First Nations, it explored the introduction of alcohol, it looked at, you know, oh, the introduction of disease, everything that led up to the making of this treaty and the impacts of that the residential schools following that, and in two and a half hours, we, as settlers got a crash course that you couldn't, you could not equal any number of books and seminars and lectures. And that was really where I decided that I think that, you know, we could use a whole lot more
Lynn:
longer that was that.
Michelle:
That was in 2015. And, and he, he had the world premiere took place in 2015. And it was attended worldwide attendance from arts funders, policymakers, you know, and he was on his side and people all over the country, were saying we need to do this in our community. So he was on his way to the province next door to another nation and he died in a tragic crash. And then I was asked to step in as interim director. And that was, that was a game changer for me too. And that's where we really learned a lot about myself, and my own failings and my own unconscious biases around all of these issues. And
Lynn:
so you were in. So you actually were the director of this theatrical production after he was killed.
Michelle:
Yeah. Oh, my. And, and we did a lot it for two years, and then I, and then we, the whole idea was that it would eventually get to the point where First Nations people could be the leadership. So tried to set set, set it up for success, financial, from a financial perspective, and programming and, and all of that. So I learned a lot. And that's where we launched dinner series that we we, I guess designed. That was the beginning of the work that I'm doing now, this creative reconciliation methodology, and a whole education program that was launched to
Lynn:
so is that is that program? available stills? Is was it ever recorded? And it can you go watch it? Or do you hate it? Did you miss it? If you missed it,
Michelle:
they week, unfortunately, we if we Yeah, that that was the problem. And we tried desperately to get a documentary going or Get it, get the film version of it. So it Thankfully, the 1000s of people did get to see it. And but it you know, what it is, is it just speaks to, that we just keep must keep creating these kinds of experiences for people. And that's been the lesson that I've learned and, and whether it's one on one, or it's large scale. It's an individual I think each individual can take on this reconciliation project. However, however, that looks,
Lynn:
so what you went from one life to another as a result of this, like you were doing, what to what, like, how did that? Because this is a big pivot, it sounds like to me?
Michelle:
Well, it wasn't it wasn't because I had I had been in the arts for decades, I had, you know, been on boards, and I had run a ballet company. So I understood the The, the, you know, inner workings of arts organizations and not for profits. But what it did is it wasn't a huge pivot. But I went from, you know, at this agent stage, not really wanting to be the the executive director or the president and CEO of anything, but rather to begin to more explore, explore this methodology and, and see how I can engage and use it in other in other settings and format. So in that sense, it? Yeah, I guess it did. It's a creative exercise around something, something that I'm hoping will help other people see and view the world in.
Lynn:
And you're right in the middle of it right now, like this is unfolding for you.
Michelle:
Yep. This is.
Lynn:
And when I think about those of us in America, we have a lot going on in our country, which I think about, first of all, the people who lived here 8000 years ago didn't care about the line between America and Canada, or the line between our various state provinces or whatever, nobody knows no territories, but not these same lines, like the land is the land and we put these lines on them. They're real. I mean, they're real, but they're not real. No. But here in America, of course, we not only have the reconciliation of our own indigenous people, but we have black lives matter. And these different divisions, and not that long ago, we had the meet to movement, and it's all about whether we treat each other with true humanity and create other rather than seeing each other as the humans that we are, is your methodology, going to have that kind of breadth and scope for those kinds of reconciliations as well.
Michelle:
I can I think it can be used for anything right now we're using it. I'm a member of an international organization called the International Women's forum and our theme this year is diverse diversity and inclusivity. So we are using the methodology at our own chapter level and the national level two, again, vision and start to be able to have a different sense of other and address diversity inclusivity and you know, it we I don't think we can play in this water without touching on privilege and likely end up there. It's a whole other issue but it is to try through the through these experiencial art Just a quick methods to open our hearts and to to be able to see the other through a different light, whatever the other is whether it's like the examples you've just named, right.
Lynn:
So one of the things that I remember Ron Heifetz talking about on learning to do that was how hard it is to untangle the root ball of loyalty. And where we learned to see others as other and where our families consciously or unconsciously, usually, unconsciously taught us who's Okay, who's not even the old, famous Feud of the Hatfields versus the McCoys, right? It's almost like it's as Oh, I can't enable it's as old as humanity itself. That we sort of create these threads of loyalty and and then how do we untangle, for example, something that was taught to us by our parents, our teachers, our peers in our growing up world, and the, the How to untangle our love, and yet the things that were taught to us that we no longer want to believe. And I remember Ron Heifetz talking about that as being quite a root ball to untangle. That's one of the cultural difficulties. And it's true in companies as well, but especially in cultures, how do we, how do we think and believe differently than those who taught us and still love them? Because I've, it feels like a disloyalty to me sometimes. Not not to be not not not even necessarily with with race, but just in general, it's sort of like, I feel like that's so hard for people to disentangle those things.
Michelle:
It's such a good question. So at the root of this, these loyalties, and the other and our views and is, is fear, right? It the other it, there's something about fear. So to get to that. Another moment, life changing moment for me was that I attended to Buddhist retreats, and they're back to back within three months. And in both of those retreats, the guru, the teacher, opened with a very simple, very simple phrase. And then it just kept going as it's like, okay, you know, digest that people, everything rests on the tip of your motivation. First retreat, I might just write that down. Everything rests on the tip of your motivation. Wow. Well, I spent a few hours, weeks on that, and then next retreat opens with that again. I thought, all right, Michelle. What, what, what motivates you? If you can, you have to distill it down to one thing. And I came to the, my only way to be able to live with myself is if that motivation is compassion. Now, that was complicated, because after spending four years at Harvard, I was coming back to Calgary and Calgary is an oil and gas town, it's capitalism full on, and I'm not going to survive. You're at No way, if I'm motivated by compassion. But you know, it did nothing. In fact, if, if anything, I found that the goals that I set for myself, the the initiatives that I was hoping to launch that were risky, and they were very, very, they were maybe unorthodox, in some ways, the wanting to explore reconciliation, build bridges of understanding between people. I was motivated by compassion. I had no issues, there were no issues like I just would stay present, do what's in front of me. And the results would take care of themselves. I was not, I was far less bothered or troubled or worried or anxious about what people would think about me or how it would affect, you know, my status or my reputation or how much money I made or all of that sort of thing. And what the title I had was I really had no title you know, I have no title perfectly I'm you have a body of work. And I want to when I stopped worrying about title and money and having to prove something you know, remember a woman in a talk I said I just everything changed when I stopped trying to prove something to people and that those are the you know, what is it that's motivating me? What what well that's a it's a very deep question but you know, I invited every I just didn't remit was a was great you know it's affected my consumption how I spend money how much stuff I need you know the whole it's affected my it's made me explore what's enough you know
Lynn:
wow that that's a huge that's a whole nother podcast we're gonna have to
Michelle:
it well it'd be great it would be great because honestly Lynn I I'll never forget was maybe it started 10 years ago I went through two years right but one year I didn't buy any clothes at all and then another year and then this the last year but Okay, last year was easy but it so it was whatever three years ago then last year, and I didn't didn't make a dent in it didn't make a difference in my life at the end of the day. And I just I remember walking I was in a mall with a friend and what's what's your high end? What's a high end jewelry chain?
Lynn:
I don't like jewelry, so I probably couldn't even give you one. I mean
Michelle:
that's just a Tiffany's. Tiffany's. Okay, so Tiffany's is next door to Bergdorf. Bergdorf is just I guess, you know, for us. It was Holt, Renfrew, and Burke's which is now maizel, Burks. And I walk in with this friend. And we're, we see both the stores because I had to go to works. And she says, you know that there is not one thing in either in these of these stores that anyone needs. It just was such an odd comment that I can't be, I gotta go prove this wrong. I want you to walk around. There's not one thing. And it's not again, it's they're beautiful things. They're luxury items. There's nothing wrong with any of that. But it made me realize that okay, what, what do I really need? It just was it just opened a door, it just again opened the door to another room that I could explore. And I guess it planted a seed? What would happen if I didn't buy any clothes for a year? You know, what would happen? If I didn't make X amount of money? What would happen if I lost this job? What would happen if all these things that are probably material, markers and indicators? They become much less important. And given me some freedom and some choices around, you know, what is that? How do I want to make a contribution?
Lynn:
You know, those little dopamine hits we get when we buy something. Yeah. Aren't that's not the only way to get those dopamine hits. Putting the lids back on my vitamins that day gave me a dopamine hit. Not because that's inherently a dopamine hit, but because I chose to see it as a moment of presence. And it gave me it like all of a sudden, this little tiny goal of I'm going to do this meticulously in frame by frame gave me the thing that the buying a new diamond ring would have given me which obviously since I don't even know Tiffany's. I mean, I knew Tiffany's but I don't shop for jewelry to get my dog with me yet. But that's quite, you know, I feel like our consumer society tries to substitute what we should be getting naturally, through our way of being with each other. For consumerism, for building stores of things, and again, there's nothing wrong with that, especially like, you know, a generous act of love for somebody to share a diamond ring or something we're not i'm not saying that that's necessarily a bad thing. But for people to understand, like that, quote, that quote, everything rests on the tip of your motivation. That's amazing.
Michelle:
You know, that dopamine, that dopamine hit for you being in the flow on the horse. That's it. That's an amazing experience. I went, I went back to the piano after I quit when I was younger, and I went back and my goal was I'm going to finish I'm going to write the exam, I'm going to perform the exam that I never finished. So grade eight exam. This was I was consumed with this for a year. The day came. I did the exam, and I got home. And you know what hit me. Nothing to do with writing the exam. It was the practice. Yeah, daily practice the joy, the joy that I had in, in, you know, in the outcome did not matter. And yeah, is that, you know, I'm going to be happy when I get that pair of earrings. I'm not a lot happier when I get gone in a moment honest with you, it's gone in a moment, what I'm happy about is when I sit down at my piano and I, I'm working through a difficult two bars and the humility that it takes to practice it over and over again, so that when the piece comes together, I have this I'm playing this I'm transported I'm, I'm playing it for people who when you know, when I do play in the enjoy it, that's the joy. It's it's just not the outcome takes
Lynn:
care of itself. We could only if I did the same thing as an adult, I got a piano, went back to practice realized it was the joy of the practice and not the performance. If only I could have known that as a child, but it felt when I was a child, I hated practicing when I was a child, it caused more fights with my mother. And you can imagine. And I feel like to some degree, unbeknownst to her, and really, frankly, I'm denotes the education system, there was something in the system that said the performance matters, that more than the practice, the practice is just taking you away from what you really want, which is to be great. And now I flipped that 100% on its head, I'm with you. It's the joy of the practice the performance. It takes care, it's
Michelle:
what it's what Seth Godin is later, Seth Godin, his latest book, practice it is right. It's in it's in our daily, you know, drip by drip practice of putting the lids on a vitamin bottles, staying present,
Lynn:
posting our little pieces of writing every day, like Michelle and I have been in this writing group together. That's how we met we've we've watched each other right are different our respective books piece by piece, in perfectly every day, just a little piece.
Michelle:
And that also speaks to community and how we all help each other. Right. So we don't have to do anything alone. You know, this, this idea that we have to rehab? I have the answer. And I'm the only one with the answer. Well, let's,
Lynn:
let's Well, I'm what I've discovered is especially the the writing group we're in, which is a Seth Godin akimbo workshop. Fantastic, extraordinarily accomplished people, brilliant people. And to some degree, we're all struggling with the same thing. How do we deal with our resistance? How do we deal with our fear, the messages that we're all sending, what is beautiful is at the core, they're very similar. And yet through our individual eyes, we all get to see a different part of the flower. It's like, trying to describe a beautiful bouquet and and every little piece matters. But none of us have all the answers.
Michelle:
The other thing that I love about it is the environment of trust. Oh, my God, I, I've shared this with people they go, you're actually writing this all your ideas? You're putting them out there? What if somebody steals them?
Lynn:
And even if they do, what does that say about that?
Michelle:
Well, I don't even worry about it. Because guess what, the next idea?
Lynn:
Have a lock on it. Because we're not there. You know, truly, there's, there's really nothing. Nothing that hasn't been said before. But it's things that we have to say for ourselves, in our own way is what I've really come to realize, even though I've had all those fears. I've had those moments where this is my brilliance. I can't let anybody see it. And then I realized, Oh, of course. It's my brilliance. And I'm not really
Michelle:
and I can't let anybody see this wound that I had. I don't want anybody to see this weakness. This is failing. It's not that it's just you know, they're all it's all part of the bundle that is Lynn and that is Michelle and that is every individual and it's it's beautiful. Each aspect of it is and we're
Lynn:
that's what we're here to do.
Michelle:
us that Yeah. And make these choices around the things that we want to change so that you know we just in this incarnation in this particular incarnation, that's my journey is just one of self realization self actualization. You know, how can I be my best self and and not suffer and be in peace because hurt people hurt people? So I really I really tried to, to limit that. You know, I try not perfect, but
Lynn:
oh my goodness. So if anybody ever wondered why I do, the longer form of podcast is Because we've been going an hour and a half, and we've barely scratched the surface, but we're gonna have to have a part two, because we like you just mentioned in this incarnation, and in the last podcast I did with Miss Shawn cook, he danced around and then went directly to the whole idea of, you know, we just have this body that's like a car and we're the driver. And you know, you lose this car and you get a new car. And we talked about medicine, you know, the same thing. So we've just barely scratched the surface surface of so many important topics. But in honoring of our time of your listeners time, I am going to wrap this up, but I have a closing question for you. And then I'm going to have people tell you have you tell people how to find you? And it is this as, as we wrap up? What would you ask of the people who are listening to this to this podcast? What would you ask? If anything?
Michelle:
If the when, when something makes you uncomfortable? It's something where you sense that you're, you're there's maybe a fear, or Yeah, it just comfort? Pause, stop, take the time to ask yourself. Why am I troubled by this? Because it will really have nothing to do with what's happening out there.
Lynn:
What an insightful question. So where can people find you because they're going to want to know more about what you're offering in the world, I want to want to read unsettled when it's out. They're gonna want to listen to your podcast. So give us all the details about how to find you.
Michelle:
Oh, I have a website where I do talk about these wonderful artistic interventions and the blog that I'm listening. And it's my name Michelle standards, Michelle with one L. Michelle standards.com. And I'm on LinkedIn. Okay, as well. Those are the two platforms that I think are my platforms of choice at the moment,
Lynn:
we will have those in the show notes so people can can go straight there when they come to our to my podcast, Paige. And Michelle, I can't thank you enough for an incredible conversation. And I know you and I both. I think we had a level four listening conversation. So appreciate you sharing that with us at the beginning for us to challenge everybody. Want to Be sure you know that you can leave us a message about what you liked about this podcast. It's on my podcast page at Lund currents comm slash podcast, there's a little button on the right, where you can leave a voicemail. Let us know what you thought of this podcast. And of course, as always share it with your friends if you enjoyed it. So take care of Michelle, we will plan a round two. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
Listen On
