#23 Bill Goldsmith: No More Being a Victim by Assuming Positive Intent
It’s easy to confuse our circumstances with our interpretation of those circumstances. In this conversation, Bill Goldsmith shares his own journey from feeling like a victim to loving his life and ending his career “100 times betters than it could have been”. Bill also shares a famous story in The Elegant Pivot, where assuming positive intent literally changed the direction and outcome of a critical team meeting.
TRANSCRIPTS ARE AUTO-GENERATED
Intro:
Welcome to creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Welcome to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. For this episode, I'm speaking with Bill Goldsmith of home partners. This conversation took many turns that I did not expect. But the one I didn't expect was exceptional. I'll get to that in a second. But first, what I realized, just as I was about to record this podcast is that bill is the first former coaching client that I've actually had on the podcast. That's not the reason he was on, you'll get to that in a minute. But it was interesting to hear from Bill what he had remembered and used from our sessions over eight years ago. Things that I've long since forgotten. But he has it and to see how they played out over time with that kind of coaching. What I had not forgotten, and actually the reason I had him on the podcast, was my experience with him in a team meeting more even more than eight years ago. And Bill decided for this podcast to come out from behind the veil of anonymity and share directly the story behind Joe, who is reveal one of the characters in my book, the elegant pivot. This story is on page 53, if you have the book, and if you don't, that's how you'll find it. And it's in the provocative Peter section. And what I assert in the book that is that if you don't assume positive intent, a provocative Peter can become a fighting Frances, while bill tells you what would have happened in the situation described if, indeed, I had assumed negative intent, which was my first instinct. In that story. There was there's so it's really cool to have that story be closed and hear both sides of it. And, but there was much more to this conversation. At the beginning, we actually talked about his 3600 mile bike ride across the country with six other people, and what kind of teaming it took to make that happen. Bill connects the dilemmas we face every day with the work we do with our teams at work. And it's like a masterclass in teaming, so worth listening to. So I would love to hear what you like about this conversation, all you have to do is go to the podcast page on my website, and there is a send a voicemail button on the right hand side. It's not where you're used to seeing buttons, but it's right over there. Click that and you can actually leave me a message. And it lets me know what you like and what you'd want to see in future episodes. So I look forward to hearing from you there. And of course, share this episode with your colleagues and friends. If you feel like it would be useful. If you got a tidbit or two out of it, chances are they will, as well. And as you all know, I listen to podcasts as I drive down the road. And it's just a great way to sort of stay up with the times and learn things. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Bill Goldsmith. Bill, welcome to the podcast. Good to see you. And I am so excited to see you. Later in the podcast, I'm going to tell people what your other name is. But I'm not going to say that first. I I actually I actually want to ask you a question. You said something as we were getting ready testing the mics and preparing for the podcast that I mentioned, I had interviewed quite a few athletes. And you said I have you have no athlete on the other side of this microphone. Right. But you're the only person I know personally that's ridden a bicycle across the country. What the heck, first of all, why is that not at being an athlete and what made you get on a bicycle and ride across the country?
Bill:
Well, you know, when you think of an athlete, right, you think a competition. And, you know are the seven of us riding our bicycles, six of them are very, very close friends of mine. One of them was a young woman who we had actually met in Carson City, who was going to ride across the country by herself. And we convinced him that was a very bad idea. So she joined us. And we made it from San Francisco at that point Carson City, all the way to Rehoboth Beach in Delaware, so 3646 miles but but who's counting? But it was not a competition.
Lynn:
Wait, wait, wait 3606 miles, 46 miles. Okay, I'm going on a bike trip in August, and it's not going to be anywhere near that. And I'm pretty sure I'm going to have a sore backside. So I'm just going to keep remembering you did 3646 miles. Yeah, you know, and it was all about working together. Right? Because when you're writing,
Bill:
you know, the wind is in your face or the sun's too hot or someone's feeling a little weak that day. They don't feel you know, 100% you've got to stay together the whole time. So half of the time is figuring out, you know, where everyone is at? And what adjustments Do we need to make as a team, so that everyone can make the ride together. Because when you're writing lead with seven people, you're only using about 60% of the energy that you would be using, if you're riding by yourself. So so if you're gonna, we averaged about 105 miles a day, we did that 36 days with four days of rest. So you can't do that. If every person's doing 100%, right, you've got to get them everyone to be able to reduce their energy level that you can get out of writing as a group. And so that's not that's not being an athlete that's not being competitive. It certainly is using a lot of physical abilities. That's for sure.
Lynn:
But wow, you know, it's funny, because I actually, I don't know if I agree with it not being an athlete. I do agree with it not being competitive, but in a way, you are applying at least team competitive principles to doing it. Yeah. Because how, you know, I, I'm thinking about my own personality. And I think I'm kind of like a jack rabbit. When we go to the airport. My family just says, we'll see you at the gate because nobody can walk. Why do I believe that? But I just thought, you know, I feel like if I was in that situation, you were and I would struggle, not being able to be the jack rabbit.
Bill:
You're exactly right. And we actually had one person in the group, I will not mention his name, because he mates here this, who had that same issue. He was an athlete, he's very much an individualistic kind of athlete like springboard diving and things like that. And he's used to running out front, and we had to constantly have that conversation, hey, we really need to stay at work as a group. And by the way, he had a couple of those bad days. And he was very thankful that we held together as a group, so that he, you know, he could pull himself away, or we could pull them along with the group, which are literally doing you feel like you're getting pulled along.
Lynn:
When a pack? Well, I can I can also see that about myself. And you know what it's making me think of because this is just fresh on my mind. Did you happen to watch the basketball game, the NCAA championship Monday night with Halo? Yeah, yeah. So do I dare ask who you're rooting for.
Bill:
So I was kind of going with Gonzaga only because, you know, they felt a little bit like the underdog to me. And they should
Lynn:
have been an underdog Of course,
Bill:
that played out exactly the way I was so impressed with Baylor what a team. Oh, wow.
Lynn:
What a team and the thing that struck me so I'm from Texas, so I theoretically should have been for Baylor. But I actually as the game started, I found myself rooting for Gonzaga. Just kind of the the whole I've always kind of been the underdog, but they were undefeated. I kind of right. But then I started watching the way Baylor's team through their passes. Well, unlike anything I've ever seen. Yeah. Like they were the trust in some of those passes. was insane. Yeah. And and the teamwork that was clear on the floor was like at a level. I had never I've watched a lot of basketball. I've never seen anything quite like that. And for them to dominate a team as good as Gonzaga that way. was fascinating. The next morning, I watched CBS interviewed, I can't remember his first name Butler, who was draining all those three pointers. Yeah. And the thing that he said about the team that struck me was he said, We are a sacrificial team. And we sacrifice our own needs for the good of the whole. Yeah. And, you know, what you just described to me with your bike ride in a way is you all were a sacrificial team.
Bill:
It's a great analogy. But something even more to the point there, Lynn. A couple of years ago, we did a ride along the Natchez Trace trail, which is a very famous from Nashville down to Natchez, Mississippi. And my wife joined us for that one. It was her first in a law is a 440 mile ride. And she kept on feeling guilty. At certain points. She's a very strong writer. But at several points, she was feeling guilty because she thought she was holding back, you know, some of the stronger riders and I had to convince him like, absolutely not. That's the point of the ride is the point of the ride. You're not holding anyone back, you're part of a team. And we're going to finish this as a team. Otherwise, you're not going to finish right because what I said before us have too much energy. So that was a big lesson for her to kind of like, I don't know, like almost like, toned down the ego a little bit to feel like you have to be as as good as the best on the team. No, you don't. You just have to participate as a team. As we go through it. And by the way, you'll be pulling somewhere What else one day to
Lynn:
Right? Well, so I want to I want to go back to that, that belief, and I think some of us have it that to be good to be a good team member, we have to be as good as the best on the team. Absolutely. That's a weird belief if you actually think about it. Yeah, yeah. Because this whole idea of like the given the take the balancing of when you are helping somebody, and when you are needing help, yeah, I think is the at the very core of teaming.
Bill:
And, you know, one of the things that you have taught me, Lynn, when we started working together back in 2011, but you know, one on one in 2013, is, I think it's very easy to get that same feeling when you're working for an organization, like I have to be, you know, as good as the best within this organization. It's on my shoulders, I need to make it happen. And I and so not only does that create a lot of anxiety, right? Obviously anxiety, like it was for my wife on the ride. But it also creates bad behavior. Right, because you're like, if she felt that way, she would have fell behind. Right, and then the team would have had to pull over, right, and stop and wait for her to catch up. By but by recognizing by toning down her ego a little bit, and recognizing that the team, pulling her forward is actually beneficial to the team, not just to her, but to the team. So we could all finish together, ride together, enjoy the ride. I think the same thing happens in and work life all the time. We always feel like we have to be the one we've got to be the hero, we've got to pull the thing forward. And so I think I think you've taught me that a lot over the years.
Lynn:
Well, I know I've taught it, but I also struggled with it. And, you know, I have a lot of clients who struggle and the thing that a lot of times, I'm going to talk about myself before I talk about what other people struggle with, when I was on a team and I have had a couple of phenomenal team experiences. There was also this question of if I'm not the standout, will I be the one that gets promoted? Oh, wow. You know, I do want that next job. And I had other people around me who wanted that next job. Yeah, yeah. Or just wanted the status of, you know, sometimes, at least, this was where I was where I worked. A lot of times the status was, are you just at the big table versus that side of the room? Right, you know, those meetings where it's like, where do you sit at the table? And, you know, do you even get to interject in this meeting? Are you here just to be a note taker are, you know, show up and go do all the work but not having ciseaux? And what the work? Yes. So I'm just curious.
Bill:
And you may not want to take the conversation this direction. But do you think you know, because you were a very successful executive in a very male dominated world, right? Yeah. And so, you know, it's not only do people have expectations of you, but you have expectations of their expectations of you, right?
Lynn:
Do I have expectations of their expectations of me? In other words, if I jumped in their head, and decided what they were thinking,
Bill:
then you can't win? There's no way to win, right? You're not gonna know why?
Lynn:
Because I actually think that's what they're thinking even though I made the whole thing.
Bill:
And what they're thinking is, what are we gonna have for lunch? Right? That's,
Lynn:
I'm definitely thinking that.
Bill:
You're wondering, are they you know, paying attention to every word I say, every motion I make? Am I being strong? Am I being weak? Am I being smart? Am I being stupid? And they're going? No, I was wondering what's for lunch today? That's what I was wondering,
Lynn:
well, or even Am I being you know, being in a male dominated world? Am I being masculine enough? So this literally happened to me in the 80s when I left Wichita Falls and went to work at the bank, same bank, but in Fort Worth, Texas, so I'm going to the big city now. And somebody had the land your dressing like a small town girl conversation with Wow, I don't even know what was wrong with what I was wearing. But I don't know what that means. Now, um, it you know, it was the 80s so what they said is you need to go to Joseph a bank, and they have women's suits that will be appropriate for banking. Oh my god. And so I go to Joseph a bank and I stocked up and this was a stretch for my finances at the time. I stocked up on a bunch of starched shirts, and what we call man suits of the day. And they literally were made out of the same material that the men would wear but it would be a skirt and a jacket, you know, cut for a woman. And it's the only time I ever did a lot with my hair during that time, and I look I didn't know I was doing it at the time. But during that time, I would get perms and I wore frizzy hair. And I think it's because it was the only way I could be an individual because otherwise, I just looked like a rubber. So sad. I was really glad for the end of the era of the Man suit, but we won't, we won't go. But you know, I do feel like that what you're talking about, actually, from a teaming standpoint, I think is critical, which is, how genuine are we in terms of offering up what our team needs versus what we think our team needs, based on the stories we're making up in our head system, the insecurities we have in our head, because most of the time, the stories we're making up are not based in 100%, fact, there may be there may be a kernel of truth, like your wife may not have been the fastest rider on the ride. That solution was, there's a kernel of truth in that she's not the fastest rider, but it doesn't mean all the other things she makes it mean in her head, or as I say, all the things that makes it mean in my head.
Bill:
Yeah, look, we we we were the actual reason she was on the ride is because we didn't want you know, to have the wives join us so to speak, right for this make it more enjoyable. Yeah, make it way more enjoyable, we're gonna be you know, and, and so the men, if you will, because it just happened to be that we were men who had been writing for 2030 years, right? wanted them to join us. So we understood, like, joyfully understood, if you will, that it was going to be a different kind of ride, right, we weren't going to be averaging 20 miles an hour, we're going down to Natchez Trace, we're going to be averaging 60 miles an hour, which, by the way, is still a really good speed. Fast, great fast. And, you know, and so it took her a while to realize that that was the goal of this ride was to have all of us ride together. And therefore we made accommodations to that. So everyone was able to really just have a great time. Otherwise, it would have been, you know, someone feeling like a victim or someone feeling, you know, put upon or, you know, it would have would have turned into an ugly ride, if you will, you know, would have been like that underlying tension. This way, it was like every time we got to the, to the hotel, which were these really cool hotels, by the way, because they were very small Mississippi towns, you know, with 200 people living in them. And then most of them were like converted hotels from you know, 100 years ago, we just had a wonderful, wonderful time because everyone understood what we were trying to accomplish.
Lynn:
That's interesting, because the other thing I struggled with myself in my corporate life, and you know, this, I've, I've struggled, I make it a point for if you're going to have a team, you have to have a goal.
Bill:
That's right.
Lynn:
And I feel like corporate life, the goals are very ambiguous, all over the place, not as clear for a team to work together. I mean, you know, everybody says, well, the goal is to make more money. Well, no, not really, you know, way more complex than that way more complex, especially if you're on the not on the revenue side of the business. Exactly. Because you're an expense, but you're a contributor. Yeah.
Bill:
You know, and when I think you make a really good point, there may have been some people in that room, you know, where you are working, that did have bad intent, right? That were thinking bad thoughts. You don't have any way of knowing that unless they come out and say it and you know, in the 80s, it probably could have got away with it, they couldn't get away with it now.
Lynn:
They'd be on news, they'd be on the news, if they
Bill:
what's the advantage to you, of making that assumption, there's no advantage because all you're doing is second guessing yourself feeling like a victim, or feeling like you have to be overly aggressive. You know, there's no advantage, I think, you know, your great insight for me has always been, if you assume everyone around that table, everyone in that room, which in the case of our bike ride was true, in the case of corporate probably was not true that they did actually have, you know, positive intent. They really did what what was best to the team. There's no other way to think about it. Right? Yeah. Because otherwise, you're just like I said, you're living in your head, and you're second guessing and you're not focused on what needs to be done.
Lynn:
That's 100% correct. And I it would be interesting if we could do a time machine and go back and let me reply places where I went ahead and acted on the negative intent. And see if I could like have Okay, rewind the tape. You know, replay now assume positive intent and see what happens. Absolutely. And, actually, so I'm going to with your permission, I'm going to tell people what your other name in the world is. Not only are you Bill
Bill:
funny, too, because when I was reading that, that alias Mind, I was thinking What a jerk this guy. I can't believe liberal put such a jerk in the book.
Lynn:
But you actually weren't. But anyway, so you in chapter like we think it's it's I think it's chapter five page 53 in my book that's coming out the elegant pivot. Yeah, you were Joe. And you were also Joe in my TED Talk. And I is actually at the TED talk that I decided I needed to start having aliases for the people I talked about. And I mean, unless I unless I get permission. The reason I do that, and I often even will swap gender. In this case, I did not. Right. But but sometimes I will do that. Because I don't want certain stories for people to go, Oh, well, that's just the way women do things, or that's just the way men are. Right? Right. I want them to, I want them to realize that we're all humans, and we all do things. Are these different ways? So anyway, you were Joe. And so I want us to tell the story from you know, we wrote it in the book, but I'd love to hear, like the behind the scenes of some of the story, like I'll start, you know, with what I went into meeting with, because it's those insecurities, I think, that plant the seed to assume negative encounter. And how long I had I started working with with the Mercy Housing team, in 2005. That was before you came Yeah. And it was, you know, one of the more interesting, like, fulfilling corporate roles I ever had, in terms of working with the team, I had worked with the team though. I think this event happened in 2012. So I had been working with the team, you know, 878 years. And we one year we did I think three or four, maybe even five meetings in a year, which is a lot for a team, leave their office, go somewhere else, have a retreat, solving problems, and, and we were solving, you know, the problems. And the we mainly the team, not me, I was facilitating it, but great group of people, you're one of the greatest group of people. huge shout out. And in fact, the team was run, I have to do a shout out. And I mentioned her in the acknowledgments in my book to sister Lillian Murphy,
Bill:
amazing human being God rest her soul,
Lynn:
Oh, God, rest your soul. And I may get a little teary thinking about this. But she was such a good mentor for me. Even if she was my client. I are my first time to really get to know her. She met me at the airport, and she said, I will drive you up to the Aspen lodge in Estes Park for this retreat that we're going to have. Sounds great. I meet sister Lillian, she's dynamic, wonderful woman. And as we're driving, I realized she must have angels protecting her because she was scaring the living daylights out of me the wife and i snowstorm that I later learned was an inside joke. Everybody knew sister Willingham.
Bill:
She had here, even though she did you never she never projected it. Right. She never projected it.
Lynn:
No, I'm sure she did. But she did not project fear she was. And she was a brilliant CEO. One of the strongest I've ever worked with. But when she passed, which was 2019. I flew out to to San Francisco to to be at her funeral I that I had never done anything like that before. But my there was no doubt I was gonna have to do that. And when I got there, Helen Dunlap was passing out buttons, presumed positive intent. You're kidding me? No. I, you know, because sister Lillian and I talked a lot about this idea of assuming positive intent and what it would mean, and you know, so this is important context for the story, we're about to tell, because starting in 2005, the team in 2005, was not cohesive. We were working on Team standards for them, but everybody had different agendas. And bringing that team together to sort of a cohesive, one mind, you know, of what, what is our single goal took us two or three years? You know, because there were so it was such a mission driven company, and there was so many good things they could do. And it was literally a fight about which good thing are we going to do and where are we going to get the money to do it? Yeah, so no argument about their mission. So with all that context of, you know, I had been teaching assume positive intent from that team meeting. And we had probably by the time we were sitting together in that meeting in 2012. I had probably facilitated north of 20 meetings, maybe closer to 30. Yeah. And, you know, two or three of the people had been there the whole time. Not everybody. So on this particular fateful day I walked in. And this is what I was thinking is we've done a lot of these meetings, I have a particular way of doing meetings, right. And I'm going to leave, you know, I know I have biases and ways of leading things. So I'm probably, it was probably coming time for them to have a facilitator with fresh eyes. And no judgment in that not even really insecurity, more of a sort of just an awareness. The insecurity didn't happen until you spoke up. I could still remember where you were sitting, and I was sitting, and do you remember what you said? Can Can you I'd rather you say it than me, but
Bill:
can we do something different here? Yeah. You know, I was I was I was angry. To be clear, it was, it wasn't just like, hey, what if we do something different? It was like, Can we please do something different? You know, you pointed out this is 2012, there was two times more tumultuous in the affordable housing industry, as well as in our nation's economy. And here we are having felt to me, like, you know, a very good positive conversation, but was not getting at the root of the issue here, which is, we as an organization needed to adapt? In what way? I don't know, right? That wasn't my concern about where I was your job, that wasn't my job. Right. But, you know, it felt to me, it felt to me, like, at the end of this day, we were going to be the exact same place where we were, at the beginning of the day, and maybe only feeling better about ourselves, you know, at the end of the day, how hard we work, which I'm right, we are, look how wonderful we are, right, we're so hard working. And so that really is where that anger was coming from. Also, just to be to be transparent about it. I had a very strong suspicion that if mercy really stepped back and looked at itself, and you know, had an honest conversation about where it needed to go, this is hard for me than to say to this day, I was probably not going to be part of that future. Because of what it needed to do, and what role I played in the organization. Right. If you recall,Lynn at that time, mercy was involved in his whole series of new business initiatives, of which I was a president of one that was, you know, sort of expanding its mission, if you will be on its core mission of multifamily, affordable government subsidized housing. And, and it felt to me like it was getting a little too vague, a little too messy. And it really needed to get back to its basics. But again, that was just a thought. But But, you know, so it was hard for me to say to you, you know, on the one hand Lynn, we need to do something different here. We're not going, you know, we're not having the conversation we need to have, and oh, by the way, if we have that conversation, I may not be part of the future. Right? That's kind of hard to do. And that's probably why it came out a little stronger emotionally than it should have.
Lynn:
Well, yeah. But you know, just think back to the team conversation we were having a few minutes ago, isn't that the sacrificial part of being a team And, and that had been something that mercy had actually successfully, but not easily wrestled with with a number of people who had different roles or different approaches to their roles. They had to say, either I have to make a wholesale change in how I'm leading the trade, because it's not contributing to the goal that we have, or I have to go find another place to do what I do really well. And I think that's one of the big questions a lot of us in always have is, is this the right place for me? And of course, what I find with my I did this with myself, and I find this happens with a lot of people as we go into the homeless sequence thinking, well, if I don't have this job, I won't have any job. And if I don't have any job, I can't feed my family and pay my bills. And I'm going to be living on the streets before I know it.
Bill:
replaying my life. Back then, right? Yeah, it's very easy to say, let's challenge our thinking if you think someone else is going to lose their job, right? So
Lynn:
if you're the one who has to cut your right arm off for this to work, that's fine. If I had to cut my right arm, I'll forget it.
Bill:
I don't know how excited I have about that. Right?
Lynn:
Yes. Well, and it's interesting, because quick aside, one of the things for me, when I first started actually putting the homeless sequence in the forebrain instead of in the back of my brain, where I could see it and go, I'm actually afraid I won't be able to make my house payments. I had this insight I can actually almost find the stair on my on my house down walking down to the boathouse for I was like wait a minute, you have earning power. Right? Like you're always going to be able to make money you may not be making money the way you Want to write, but you're always going to be able to make money. So hush with the homeless sequence and remember your earning power. I remember having that insight. It doesn't always work, but it's better than
Bill:
actually. Because it always, I always imagined moving in with my sister, right.
Lynn:
That's my fallback. That's my fallback. Yeah. Well, so you said that I totally felt your anger, you were across the room. And I can remember because you were sitting, maybe three people down to my left, we were in a big square table, a square table, and I was kind of on the end, or I could get to the flip charts and stickies and all that, and that not only did the words hit me, but the, the emotion hit me. And it hit me in two ways, one, because you it was interesting, we had it You and I had a history, because you were always traveling in a lot of times, we're meeting in the Denver area, where a lot of the folks that were there, so they weren't coming to breakfast at the hotel. That's right. Also, they almost always provided breakfast, but it was never, it was always too late. And it was always too full of carbs. I needed protein, and I needed it now. So I would go eat breakfast. For years. I was down there by myself. And then as soon as you joined mercy, you were always down there. So you and I had already had who knows 10 breakfasts together.
Bill:
Yeah. And I went for breakfast specifically hoping to be there because I always enjoyed our conversation.
Lynn:
That's funny. That's really good to know. Because it was it ditto. And, you know, sort of like the best way I could start a Mercy Housing meeting was start with my breakfast with Bill and we had really cool conversations much like this one. Yes. So, so that with that background as well, and your anger and my question about myself, I will tell you, I 100% took that personally. Yes, for a minute. And already even 10. I'm not sure exactly how much time passed,
Bill:
which by the way is the way it was met.
Lynn:
Yes, it was my personal, right. Yeah. But I didn't know that at the time. And this is what this is for assuming positive intent. This is, you know, folks listening to this track this through, because you will have these moments for you know, it was meant personally and yet, you still don't have to take it. Although I did take it personally. But I didn't act on it. Yeah, that's right. And the thing that kept me from acting on it was mostly my pride, and, and desire not to embarrass myself in front of this particular group of people, especially by acting on it because I had been teaching assume positive intent. And I was not going to act like a fool in front of sister Lillian, thank you very much. So the question was, how do I not do that. And mostly, I don't know how I put my hand over my mouth. But I'm sure I literally was probably like, doing any kind of corporate is acceptable way to keep my mouth from firing back at you. Because I also have a fiery personality, when somebody comes at me with anger, I can match you, thank you very much. And a few other things were said. I think people were a little taken back by that. And, and that's when, you know, I almost I feel like this was really a gift from the heavens, I was like, I think I almost said help inside of my mind. And what came to me was this team does need to do something different. And it was like, I found the one positive thing that was in the middle of your package of anger and frustration, and I might not have a job. And Lynn might not be our best facilitator. But this team did need to have a different conversation. And luckily, I said, Hey, guys, what's it gonna take for you to have a different conversation here? So do I remember you say that, and that was a moment of breakthrough? Because it was almost like I watched everybody sort of like settle into their seats like, okay, we're going to talk now. And there was a lot of I don't remember exactly what was said, I could go back and probably read that meeting report and find it. I haven't done that. There was a lot said that hadn't been said before.
Bill:
Absolutely. And I think part of that two things. One is, I think, my anger, if my anger did not resonate with other people in the room, at least in terms of the content, then it would have gone nowhere. Right. So to your point, there was a and I knew this already from prior conversations with other people, members of the team, there was a sense of, we need to have a different conversation. Right. And so it did, even though it came across as probably more emotional than it should have. It still resonated with people that we do have to have a different conversation. So that that was important, but if you had reacted differently, right, let's say you did take it personally and kept in acted on it as if you took it. Then here's what probably would have happened. I would have gotten even more isolated. Right? And people would have said, okay, Lynn's feeling bad. We don't want them to feel bad bill hurt her feelings. I don't want to contribute to that. So let's all go after bill. Right? You know, and that's what would have happened or more like it may have happened, I guess we should say, Who knows? But by you reacting the way that you did, you not only gave me space to like calm down and say, okay, Bill, don't be a brat about this. We're still here to do serious work. You know, we're here at Mercy house, we have serious work to do. But I think you also gave other people permission to say, yes, we do need to have a different conversation. Now let's talk about that in a in a productive way. And if you had not reacted the way you did, that would not have happened. And it probably would have just been like me storming out of the room. You know, and everyone feeling very uncomfortable for the rest of the session. Right. So thank you for, for keeping your presence about you at that one. Well, to do that, whatever spirit.
Lynn:
Well, it's definitely bigger than ourselves, when we have to find those moments we have to draw on that, I think and the other. The other thing was, I mean, I've had situations like that where it has gone south, and people storm out. And the other thing that could have happened, by the way is you could have kept coming after me. Yeah, that's true, too. So, so you didn't and and actually that we later relator kind of had a rest of the story. Yeah. Which was interesting. Because after that, that was probably that was probably the highest pressure situation I had faced, where I needed to assume positive intent with high stakes. And in a way, it kind of raised my pressure threshold around it. And it made me see, you know, what you really can like find that positive thread, even if if somebody is giving you 100 threads of negative find that positive thread or assume it's there and make it up if you have to, like find the goal, which is what I kind of did, almost accidentally, but but I learned and taught it from for at least a couple of years after that.
Bill:
Yeah. Yeah, no doubt that story to other people is i is i did have negative intent. Because of all the anger and everything. Yeah. But by you responding the way that you did, and affirmed the core kernel point, which was valid, right, all the emotions attached to it was not valid. But the but the core point was that we did need to have a different conversation. You took me from being a victim, which is what I was feeling like at that moment. Right, right, to being a positive contributor of the conversation. So your one word, your one phrase changed me changed me from actually having negative intent to it now having positive intent, because you affirmed the kernel of truth that was in my, in my statement, and I think all of us, it ended up being an amazing day, right. And it really was the beginning of major changes that happened at Mercy that needed to happen. And by the way, I was a part of that future. That's right, just how you landed in my retreat center, your retreat center, because I was not part of that future. And sister, Lillian, who, you know, was such an amazing human being, you know, recognize that hey, Bill, you know, you kind of called this back then. It's actually true. So we're going to do whatever we can to make sure that you can make that transition, which again, was very affirming that sister Lillian say, Thank you, in a way, you know, for helping drive us into that different conversation. But you're also not part of that conversation.
Lynn:
That's a tough one. Yeah. Well, it was the best thing that ever happened. So it's great. Well, yeah. So how to describe that, how was it the best thing that ever happened to you? Because I think a lot of people who are listening to this have either been there or are there now where they can they're trying to figure out their future, it looks like it's going to go not their way because they're going to lose their job or not get what they want. And yet they they're probably about to open a door to the best thing that ever
Bill:
That's right. That's right. And that's exactly it's exactly what you said before. The reason why I was not going to be the future of mercy is because who I am what I do best, right, which is to build things that's what I do best is to build things from scratch. Mercy didn't need that person. Because what mercy needed to do is get back to its core mission, which is affordable multifamily, government subsidized housing, and get better at it. Right. It had a lot of things that it needed to improve in terms of its infrastructure, its systems, all kinds of things that needed to improve which it's done, by the way, right. And I would have served no function. In that world, so by, you know, forcing me out, in some ways out of the organization, it gave me the opportunity then to say, Okay, what is it that I do best? In a way that I never had that clarity before? What is it that I really do? Well, and now let's go do that. And I am doing that I'm still doing that. And it's been incredible. It's, you know, finishing up my career in a way that is at least 100 times better than if I had stayed at Mercy. Right, once, right, you had earning power. I had talent that just happened to be in the wrong place at that time. So that's why it's by far, I would have, you know, I think I would have retired as sort of an angry young man anymore, right? And feel bad about my career, because I always would have been the sort of like, you know, sixth finger in the organization that really didn't have a role there. And I just would have been fighting for survival. Now I got to go new organization, a startup organization, where I really, you know, shine and and can provide my best my best talents. So that's why was the best best thing.
Lynn:
Can you say a little bit about the startup organization that you sure help with and what you've done?
Bill:
Yeah. So kind of interesting story, why I was at Mercy Housing. We were working in response to the foreclosure crisis. So the organization that I had founded at Mercy Housing, it's called mercy portfolio services. And it was all about responding to the foreclosure crisis, particularly in the city of Chicago, but it also in major urban areas around the country with all the foreclosures, you know, the line of value, and all the ugliness, unemployment that came out of that. And so at that time, it's exactly what my talents are meant to do, right? run into the storm, figure out what the proper response is, build a machine, you know, to respond to it. And we had a tremendous amount of success. While I was there, you know, we had understood that in order to really deal with the foreclosure crises, ultimately, we had to provide a path for people to get back into homeownership. Of those 4 million Americans that had lost their homes due to foreclosure. We needed to find a path to get them back into homeownership. I was actually invited to a meeting by Ed DeMarco, who at that time, ran the F h. A, which was the conservatives for Fannie and Freddie when they went into conservatorship, right. And one of the people who was invited that meeting was a guy by name of Bill young, who is from Chicago. And he was starting a new organization from the ground up a real estate investment trust with a lease purchase product. And with a lease purchase product, would it allow people to do is to work with a real estate agent, go into the market, look at houses that are available for sale, this is amazing. Look at houses that are available for sale, pick out that house, home partners that which is the name of the organization buys that house, and they move in as the tenant for that house that they picked out from houses available for sale. And then they have the ability to rent for one year, they have the ability to rent up to five years, or they have the ability to buy that house anytime they want during that five year period at a very reasonable costs probably in the money and become a homeowner again. And it's still to this day of very critical product. One of the things that we won't get into that will change the conversation here. But one of the statistics that really, you know, sort of breaks your heart. This does mine is within the black American community, the homeownership rate is 41%. It's 76%. For white Americans, that 41% is actually lower than it was in 1968 when the Fair Housing Act was passed, so and a lot of that is due to the foreclosure crisis, right, and now due to COVID. And so having a vehicle to allow people to get back into a single family lifestyle, their choosing and become a homeowner, is the primary way and you already know this as an ex banker. The primary way in which low and moderate income people build wealth is through homeownership. They don't you know, they don't have the ability to do their 401k they're not investing in the stock market. They're not growing with Amazon's you know, growth. So providing a vehicle for them to get back into a wealth building mode. The average home owner has 40 times to Well, at the average renter. We offer ours about that, but that's the world that I really thrived in
Lynn:
You know, you can hear the passion in your voice.
Bill:
Yeah, you're taking on a massive critical issue. And again, in 2008, it was the foreclosure crisis. I was thrilled, you know, and sister Lillian and Dick banks, if you remember dick, and invited me to join mercy, to create a response to that. But I was more also thrilled when I was asked to leave versie in a very polite way, in a very generous way, including being able to work with you, and be able to work with Bill young, and build something from the ground up, that we now own over $6 billion worth of homes that people are living in that had this right to purchase it
Lynn:
in real
Bill:
life. 10,000 houses later, we're in now in 70, Metro markets around the country. It's been, I could not have asked it to a better end of my career. It's just been amazing.
Lynn:
That is stunning. And that's back to actually the work we did together. Yes, the end of your career was transition coaching. Absolutely. How do I go? And what do I go to the next thing
Bill:
you had to do is get me out of my victimhood mode.
Lynn:
Well, there was a little bit of that going on. But you know, so um, I want to close the loop on the Jo story, because that that second half happened there. But then I want to talk about something you did to actually get yourself out of the victim story. So you did something I've never seen anybody do I want to talk about that in a second. But I remember sitting in, in my retreat center, so for those of you listening mystic waters farm, we have a ski like we have a Leadership Retreat Center, the rental cabins we now have, you didn't you weren't there in time to get to have Anna, we have a massage therapist who will travel, people will travel far and wide to have her they say I mean people clients in every city that I've had her, you know, come from New York, DC, can't find another one like her. She's amazing. Oh, so we've really built the place out. But you were there kind of early in that experience habit. And I remember sitting there telling you, you were you needed to assume positive intent, and I don't even remember the story. Because what happened next is what blows my mind is when I can't believe I just did this, I got stuck my foot in my mouth, I start telling you the story of Joe, at Mercy Housing, and all of a sudden, I said, Wait, Bill, I'm about to tell you a story about yourself. So here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna finish it. And then I'm going to ask you, Did you or did you not have negative intent that day?
Bill:
Absolutely.
Lynn:
And it was so interesting, because you You said I totally remember it. And I totally had negative intent. And, and thanks to you, I did not have to be the jerk that day. I think that was exactly your language. And that was almost when I realized I had to, you know, I didn't know I was gonna do a TED talk. But I knew I was going to have to write a book about this. I just now finally got the book written. But because that's how powerful just this one. This one, that's why I call it the elegant pivot. It's like this one simple move. Yeah, but I don't want to go into, you know, your coaching is your coaching. But you did something as a result of our coaching. And this is when I knew you were really kind of owning your own growth. And you developed a way to measure and monitor your state of mind.
Bill:
Oh, yeah, I do remember that. My charts. My favorite chart.
Lynn:
Yes. describe that. Describe how that came to be and what you did, because that was brilliant.
Bill:
Yeah, I think I sent you a copy of that, right? Yeah,
Lynn:
I know where I was standing. I was actually skiing down at trophy likes. I looked at it on my phone, and I was standing there, my jaw drop going. This is the coolest thing I've ever seen.
Bill:
Yeah, yeah. So it was a very simple exercise every morning. Because that's where it starts, right? It starts in the morning. Where's your head at? And what do you do, you know, to get in the right place in there. It could be meditation, it could be prayer, but I did something a little bit different. In which I recorded my emotional state. I recorded my physical state, and I recorded my Well, there's there was depression. Okay, so my depression state, because there were there was a period of depression there. And I would give it another one to five. And I was able to over a long period of time ago, I think it was about a year that I did this over a long period of time, I was able to see, you know, the downs, I was able to see the UPS, I was able to see that it was cyclical. And I also way more importantly, I was able to see that I could actually control it by by assuming positive intent. So when I went back to that event and started all this at Mercy Housing And said, you know, if I assume not only what the decision they made was best for them for mercy. But I also assume that was what was best for me, because they care for me. And they loved me slowly over that year period, is I began to really internalize that, and and map it in a very specific way a chart, you know, it's very specific chart. That's what then really started to give me the space, if you will, if that's the right term. Yeah, to really begin to think through, okay, if all that is true, which is, by the way, then where do we go from here? What what moves do we begin to make, and it's almost like, you know, out of, in the middle of that, I get a call from Bill, and also one of the other co founders on partners, Bell, how we, who called me lead, right at the right time, if they had called me six months earlier, and I had not been tracking, you know, these three states, it would have been the wrong time to call me, it wouldn't have worked, because I wouldn't have been in the right place to hear what I needed to hear the opportunity they were offering me. So you know, when they call me, it was exactly the right time, I knew it was now time to stop charting, and really focus on this amazing opportunity that's brought me all around the country. And I've trained over 25,000 real estate agents around the country. I love training, as you know, I love talking. And, and, and it's helped. And I think in a very important way, this organization to grow to be the amazing organization that really is today, and it's just getting started. It's just getting started.
Lynn:
So when you, you know, you said, This is what really perked my ears up. You said I'm realized I could control
Bill:
Yes.
Lynn:
What else besides assuming positive intent? did you do? Did you? Did you journal? Did you change the way you ate? climbing,
Bill:
I would put down the three numbers that we talked about one to five, and then I would journal for maybe about five minutes, not a lot. I wouldn't, you know, for maybe about five minutes. That was so important. Because again, it created the space for me to reflect, you know, on, on, on, on where I was at in this journey. And it helped me to begin to see that I was in fact on a journey. Right? I mean, you and I've talked about this so many times over the years, you've got to go down in the pit sometimes. Right? I think you and I is talking about Joseph, right? Being in the pit, right? You got to go into pit sometime because that's where you kind of shed, if you will, you know, almost a reification you shed the negativity that you have. And the only way to shed that negativity, at least in my life, I don't know about yours. But I think you would agree with me is to go down into the pit once in a while. And then you got to walk you know, then you got to track yourself coming out of the pit. And it's not instant, you don't come out of the pit and all sudden, everything's perfect. You now have another process to go through, which is the the journey in the wilderness, so to speak, to stay with the metaphor until you you know until you get to that place where, okay, now I'm ready for the next I'm ready for the next challenge. I've shared everything I needed to shed, I've rebuilt my confidence, I know who I am. Now, go ahead, universe, give me the next opportunity. And that's why I've been and they'll call me at that time. Because I was ready as you can.
Lynn:
It's interesting because one of the critical tools that I'm working with in my next book, dancing the tightrope. The fundamental tightrope is rules versus tools that I'm talking about in this book, rules, meaning we have our ways of the past, we have our rules for how things work, or why things should be, I get a job I worked there 30 years, I get the watch, I retire, you know, whatever, whatever the rules are, but the rules could be this is what I do when somebody comes after me in a meeting with anger, or this is what I do when things are uncertain. What are my rules about these things that made up usually from my childhood? The tools are what can we do, instead of our own rules to face what's in front of us now. So I don't always have to go to the same thing. I have other things I can do. Well, mistake sharing is becoming one of those tools. So you use the word shed, I have to shed the old thing and what I'm seeing a pattern in myself and I think this is a pretty common pattern at least is working with my coach and I see it with a lot of people I work with is when we make a mistake or think things aren't going well. We will take things personally we will beat ourselves up we will get up in our heads. We will feel like a victim. And it's all all of it's happening inside of our head rather than and it's and it creates a big delay to saying well what's next and you've said that three or four times in your description, I looked at what was next. And the faster I think we can get out of our heads and into what next, the more pressure we can handle. And then we can trust our tools to handle whatever comes even if we don't know what it is.
Bill:
That's right. Isn't that such an exciting moment, when you know, you got out of the pit, you've done a lot of the shedding, you're starting to rebuild. And then there's sort of like that day, it's usually like, you know, you could point to when you began to see what's next, right. And now you're really into the rebuilding mode that you're done shedding. Hopefully,
Lynn:
this round
Bill:
will happen again, it will happen again, don't don't worry about it, life will bring it to you. Again, if you need to shed life, we'll bring you the thing that you know, the situation that will cause you to shed. And but it's such an exciting day, when you do real. You know, it also one thing you said this earlier, and I think we should give it some more credence. Some of us are very fortunate that the worst situation that we will ever experience is not really that bad. Right? The fact that I do have a sister who would gladly I don't know that gladly, but would you know, would be? Right? So that's really powerful, because not everyone has that. Right? They don't have that lack of better term safety net, if you will, where the worst situation is really not that bad. So that's good to know. And then when you get to that point where you've done the shedding, and you're ready to start rebuilding, and you can start imagining what's next. That's a very exciting day.
Lynn:
Oh, it is, especially when you're a builder and I have a similar personality. Sometimes I think I can divide the world into some people are builders, and some people are runners, I rarely Are those the same person, you know, which is what makes it so hard for entrepreneurs who build something to keep running it? Because at some point, it has to flip from more of, you know, yeah, thing you built to the thing you're running. Yeah. And
Bill:
until this last, shedding that that is really who I am, I'm a builder. I thought I could do both. And I can't, you know, I'm much more of a polar than I am an operations person. So
Lynn:
so so what was that? What was the moment or the feeling or the insight or the action? I don't know what it would have been that, that took you out of that place where you self described victim into like, owning your life? Do you remember the moment? Or was it a series of thoughts? Or
Bill:
was it was it was absolutely a moment. And I think, you know, I think however you come at this, I just think there was a recognition within me that all the shedding was now done, right? We've done all the shedding that needed to be done. And so now it's time to really think about what's next. If I have thought about what's next too early, and then not finished my shedding, then I would have brought a lot of that, you know, non productive behavior to the next situation. So I needed to do enough shedding so that whatever's next I was going to be able to bring, you know, the best of me to that next opportunity. I think that happens subconsciously within us that, you know, we it's, we recognize when it when it's time very exciting feeling
Lynn:
when you're if somebody is listening to this, and they're saying, Wait, what does he mean by shedding? How do you shed? What,
Bill:
what were those aspects of my personality? What were those aspects of my, you know, the way I ran things, right, the way I did things that really weren't that helpful. I mean, I give you one example, if x is not my example, to a very, very good friend of mine, who used to have a, you know, a really strong personality can be very abrasive, could be very, you know, sort of in your face, right. And that person had decided somewhere along the way, that that was a reason for their success, right? That they had that they were kind of a bit of a bully, if you will. And they thought and it happens to be a female, they thought that was the reason for their success. It was really, really fun. When they realized one day because of a shedding experience that they had. That that was not why they were successful. They were successful, because they were really smart. And really great at building things and analyzing things and constructing things. And in fact, the very thing that they thought was the sort of kernel of their success was the very reason why they needed to go to shed. They were tired of he was wearing people out. And so I think you know that personnel is incredibly successful, but also one of the most delightful, enjoyable people to be around, which was 20 years ago, right. So I think that's what i what i mean by and that's only true. I think when, if you're trying to be, you're trying to be more impactful. Because if you're okay, in the role that you're playing that go ahead, just keep on being destructive the day you retire. But if you're trying to do more, then you're going to have to go through that shedding experience. Because that personality, that aspect of your personality is not going to be welcomed at that next level, you're not going to get there.
Lynn:
Well, what's interesting, what you're describing is actually owning the parts where I call it, you're standing on your own leash. So you know, Julie Gould, she was here a couple of years ago, taking pictures of my dog, Xena, and we were talking about the idea that, you know, my business is called creative spirits unleashed. And oftentimes, we're standing on our own leash, well, Xena stood on her leash in Korea. And I said, Julia, we got a good picture of this, because we're seeing exactly what we're doing. And Xena had to say that she had the ability to free herself that nobody else was. Wow. And what I'm hearing is you're describing the shedding is, at some point, you became aware, through your victim lens, you were still able to say I own my stuff. And it's up to me to shed my stuff. So that's the turning point, I think that's so hard for people to see is how do I get out of a victim mentality? Yeah, and create agency for my own life?
Bill:
Yeah. And I think that's hard to do. And I think you'll agree with this. It's hard to do if you're not journaling. And you're not talking to someone like yourself. 100%. Right. You know, cuz you are always wanting to say, Bill, that's not that's full of crap. Did you know, and you actually had the credibility to do that, because you knew those people? You know, I did. If you're ascribing that behavior to sister Lillian, you're just wrong. In another story here, brother, because I could have never done that on my own. How can I ever do that on my own because I was really enjoyed by victimhood.
Lynn:
Well, we do wrap ourselves up, and and it's such a good, you know, I remember on my behalf this outline, but I remember as a kid, when my mother would want me to do something, I'd go I hey, I didn't ask to be born, your is your passion. I'm here to talk about the ultimate.
Bill:
My dad
Lynn:
didn't work with her either. I can tell you that. But you know what's interesting, because you mentioned you can't do it without journaling. And I have to second that. And probably the most impactful journaling I did was when I got the artists way in the late 90s. Actually, I learned about the artists way in Illinois, in Chicago during a bank of america merger. And it's when nation's bank bought Bank of America. We took their name, but we, you know, definitely a nation's bank when and, and one of the people that was in the credit training group in Chicago said, Lynn, you need to read this book, The artists way. And it was a while before I did, maybe another year. But in that book, Julia Cameron tells you about morning pages. Did you ever do morning pages, I don't remember if I ever, so morning pages a little different than journaling in that it's three long form pages on your classic college notebook. You know, your spiral notebook like this, you know, it's held up in a book I'm keeping notes on. And she says for 30 days don't read. But every day you write three full pages doesn't matter what you write. And the interesting thing was there were days where I literally just wrote I hate writing these stupid morning pages. Because I couldn't think of anything else to say, but what starts to happen is you start to see on the page, because it's in your handwriting, the proof of your own bullshit.
Bill:
Yeah,
Lynn:
yep. Nonsense. criticals voices in your head, the committee that somehow moved in, you know, like I had to learn when I left bank of america for it took me six months to make the decision mostly because of noise in my head that I didn't want to tell my dad, my mom, too, but my dad, especially because he'd been more like my career mentor than I was leaving the bank and therefore leaving security and leaving my 401k and leaving my status, all this stuff that I thought my dad was going to talk to me about. So when I finally said, Hey, Dad, I've decided to take a job with a startup. He said, that's great. I'm so proud of you. And I went, who are you? And then I realized my dad was an oil wildcatter he was a gambler at heart. And he was probably wondering why his daughter was likely in such a safe job. So that was the beginning of me understanding and it was right around the time I was doing more In fact, from what I started doing morning pages with I started January of 90, I think was January of 99. September of 99. I left the bank by then I could have see I can I the transit. And that's when we bought our house in like Louis well, over those nine months, that's when all I made all the pivots that had led to the life I have right now, which is, I would probably be dead if I'd stayed in banking, because I was so caught up in the emotional turmoil, I did not have healthy habits. I didn't never go back. Luckily, I don't think I would have gone back to smoking. I used to be a smoker, but I was not good. I was not in good shape.
Bill:
You know, one of the days I remember in my life very well, similar to what you were saying is I had journal, you know, for 20 years off and on, obviously. But I had a good big stack of journals, you know, like, at least 10 or 15 of them. And it was sort of in that process of rebuilding, you know, after that pivotal moment. But I just, you know, started to ask my question, what's next, and I went back and began to read some of those journals. And I, they were pathetic.
Lynn:
That experience,
Bill:
like, Oh, my God, this guy's like a professional victim, man. Right. And I remember, you know, taking them out to the garbage and throwing them in the garbage and say, that person's gone. Now that person is gone. And it was very powerful, you know, to be able to do that, because a lot of them you know, if you're a victims, you sometimes you get really good reasons to be one. And I had documented some very, very good reasons for my childhood all the way, you know, to my career at that point, but they were all pathetic, and they were just wrong. They were just absolutely wrong. You know, not the incidents were gone. But the interpretation, or the response to the incident was wrong.
Lynn:
Thank you for making that distinction. Because it is that we are going to have bad things happen to you
Bill:
absolutely. All the time.
Lynn:
And it's the interpretation and how we choose to frame it. And this is why the lessons from Viktor Frankl you know, were so powerful to me, right? Because he was in prison in the Holocaust. He did not and, and Nelson Mandela, By the same token, it's like you can imprison my body, but you don't get me.
Bill:
Yeah. And very inspiring stories,
Lynn:
very inspiring stories and things that I had to draw on many times is still do when I find myself feeling victimized.
Bill:
Absolutely. Yeah. You know, how can you How can you read Viktor Frankl or Nelson Mandela and say, and they chose not to be a victim? How can you possibly come to the conclusion? Yes, but they didn't live the life that I lived. My first grade teacher won't let me sing in choir. Yeah,
Lynn:
well, yeah, exactly. But we, there's a comfort in it, because I don't have to do anything about it. And this is kind of why I have had been so grateful for the coaches that I have had, who showed me my own strength so that I could find my way out of my own nonsense, and get off my own leash, to realize that though, you know, this is that difference between rules versus tools. It's like I actually do have those tools. I
Bill:
have all the people that you've coached, including yourself, you know, being coached, what are the rewards in your mind for doing that for sort of assuming positive intent, putting victimhood away? You know, thinking about what's next? From your perspective, what you know, and you because you've seen so many people go through this, what do you see is the biggest reward for those folks.
Lynn:
So, for me, and I think what's happening with most people, and I don't know if this is going to surprise you or not, but I think it's the new quality of relationships. So do you agree? Is that been your
Bill:
Yeah, yeah. And that relationships with people with everything
Lynn:
with every, you know, actually, interestingly enough with nature as much as with my journey to get back on the horse, you know, I fell I was thrown from a horse in 2017. Pretty bad injury in the hospital for three days. And I was not a horseback rider, and I liked horses as a kid. I wouldn't, you know, maybe I was, I probably was obsessed as a kid. But I'd gone 40 years without horses. So I was like, I'm there. I'm gonna be done. And I won't I won't go into all of the three year journey because it's been quite a journey. But as I started working with particularly Lynn brown and Bruce Anderson, and interestingly enough, Lynn brown does natural horsemanship. Bruce Anderson does natural human shares. And what I have learned, first of all, is how deeply feeling horses truly are and how much they really love to have a relationship with us heart of nature. But but they are their nature is to be prey. And our nature is to be predator, although I think humans can also be prey. So here you have an animal that somehow over the 1000s of years has been our primary source of transportation, and has agreed to work with us, and yet, has had to agree agree to work with us by going against his own nature of running from predators, and allows us to put a get animal on his back in the form of a saddle and will choose to move us around. Yeah, and as I have learned to have that relationship and cleaned up my own victimhood, and recognized how to draw clean boundaries with a 1200 pound animal, because, you know, it's easy to go in and say, Well, I want the horse to light me and they will crowd you, and now you're going to get stomped on. If his head raises up while your head is in the wrong place, or he, you know, he's crowding you not even realizing or decides to bite you, you're going to be severely damaged. I mean, you could get killed easily. But at the same time, staying in relationships and paralleling that that kind of transformation showed me what Maslow's hierarchy of needs is, which is in our very base, we all need safety. We all need to know we can trust each other and in. In this work, as I've shared the victimhood, I've felt the confidence to help other people feel safe as well, like I do a horse and help them find their own strength rather than being in their victimhood. And by the way, one of the other things people will do and people in the horse will do this a lot, don't go to dominance. This is something when brown really showed me that every time you're working with a horse, they'll start needing safety. They'll test you with their dominance, and then you'll have trust and connection. But first, you have to pass the test and show you're worthy to be there later.
Bill:
Yeah, yeah, that's a great insight.
Lynn:
And so it's been relationships, I think that has made the most difference. It's made me less likely to ascribe negative things to people. It's made me want to help them find their own strength, not to give it to them, but to tap into their own, so that they don't have to feel victimized. Yeah. And then that just creates a lot cleaner relationships.
Bill:
Yeah. And I'm sure you've seen that happen in so many people, and it's probably it's probably the the most rewarding part of what you do. I would be my guess,
Lynn:
you know, it is. And just conversations like the one we're having are actually the probably the rewarding part, I have actually found that I don't do small talk very well. So you know how we used to talk at the breakfast table, it was not hardly ever about small talk, we were talking these kinds of conversations, right? I remember one in particular, I was actually expecting something I don't remember if it was Christmas coming up or whatever. When I said something about what I wanted my husband to do, and you go, that's not fair, don't expect that of him. And I really appreciated you calling me out on it. Because what you were showing me was, I was kind of living in a delusional world, like, somehow you could read my mind, you said something like, he can't read your mind. Right? Right. gotta help him out.
Bill:
I, you know, my, I have three daughters, 2026, and 23. And, of course, they're all in and out of relationships, you know, and kind of figuring out who they are. They're all doing very well. And Amy and I are very proud of them. But that is one of the things that we talk about a lot, is the process that my wife and I went through, particularly for our first 12 years, you know, and not making assumptions of what is good behavior or bad behavior, or what people should be doing, or shouldn't be doing, you know, nothing is going to ruin a relationship, including a marriage quicker than that. Right. And to me, it's the height of maturity, that you believe the world should be behaving the way you believe the world should be behaving. Right.
Lynn:
That's the three year old that thinks the world still revolves around them.
Bill:
Absolutely, absolutely. And I see so many parents, you know, have in their mind, what their kids should be doing or should be doing. And, and by the way, the parents changed their mind what they should be doing or shouldn't be doing all the time. And so if the kid ever stuck with one of them, they would have absorbed by the second time the parent should be doing or shouldn't be doing because we're always growing right? And, and I call I will call a parent out on that to say, Why Why are you assuming that they should be doing that? Well, that's what I was taught as a kid. Well, who cares? What's that got to do with anything? Right? They shouldn't. They should be doing, not what you think they should be doing. And then you can have a very different conversation with them because then it's about what should you be doing. If you have goals You should be doing whatever it is to achieve those goals, whether I agree with them or not like your dad, you thought he had one thought what you shouldn't be doing? And you are way off, right? You're wrong. Yeah. And you probably went through months of anxiety, you know, when
Lynn:
I went through months of anxiety and like, I remember telling my sister in law that I was thinking about doing this, pretty much like I was telling somebody, I was thinking about robbing a bank, like, you're gonna have to keep this client or I'm gonna get caught getting in trouble. And it was such a moment to realize how far off crazy this crazy committee that wants to live in my head is. Yeah, and you know, the work I've been doing. You know, this is something that working with Bruce in the round pen with the horses, he said, You know, he has all of his work is about tapping into your own tools, basically, so that the voices as he calls them, can't mess with you. It's like he said, back in back can come at you all day long. But you've trained yourself to look at it a different way. And then you can say, hey, even under the highest level of pressure, sorry, talked to the hand. This is what the situation is telling me what to do here. Absolutely. So I've got to go with what the situation is telling me what to do, not what my past is telling me what to do.
Bill:
And then I think it's a different quality conversation, right? Because then if you're focused on what should be actually what should be happening, then you can have a discussion about that, as opposed to what you think should be happening. Which is a fruitless discussion, because you're probably wrong anyway. Right. As you were your case, right? You're absolutely wrong about what you thought your dad should, was going to react to. So yeah, it's very, you know, right.
Lynn:
It's fair. Right. And that's the, for smart people, it's kind of hard to believe that we're wrong that much about assuming.
Bill:
Oh, yeah, right, around 99%. Right.
Lynn:
Right. We're pretty much wrong. And, and also, by the way, one of the insights has been very difficult for me to understand is, oftentimes, the negative intent, I am assuming is the thing I would be doing. And when I do show my negative intent assumption, what I've actually done is tip my hand to everybody more about who I am not who you are.
Bill:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Lynn:
You know, so that's been some of the work I've had to recognize. I remember when I was just learning this at the bank, I worked with a phenomenal team of people who were very, very patient and time with me. And we would joke about when you point your finger at somebody, remember the other three things?
Bill:
That's right, you
Lynn:
know, and so we I think we even had some kind of T shirt, like it's all about me or something like that, to remember all that nonsense. So, man, Bill, this conversation, this, this is what I this is why I do what I do. I love having these conversations, and what a what a gift to get to do it in a way that gets recorded and put some life in the story of Joe in the elegant pivot. I can't even But you came out from behind the scenes, even after thinking of your own self is, as I'm sure. Well,
Bill:
you know, throughout my long career, the times that you and I have spent together, both at the mercy context and as well as at the retreat center, have been some of the most meaningful times in my life. And I thank you so much for everything that you've been to help me move forward in a way that has a I just live in incredible life now. And yeah, no, but it's just it just happens to be true. And I, you know, you and I stay communicating throughout the year, and I hope we continue to do it, because I really value our relationship.
Lynn:
Well, thank you. That means the world to me, because I don't do what I do just for this kind of conversation, but it it really does warm my heart to know I've made a difference. So I really appreciate you saying that. So, Bill, how do people find you and find out more about if they want to know more about home partners? Oh, yeah,
Bill:
yeah. Whole partners is home partners calm, okay. The name is actually home partners of America. My private or my business Facebook page is Bill Goldsmith Coldwell Banker because I'm actually an agent with Coldwell Banker. And of course, I can be found on LinkedIn, I can be found on Twitter. I try to post every day, half the time on reposting your stuff. So that's cool. Thank you. That makes it well, but thank you so much for all you for all that you've done with me and all that you've done for so many other people.
Lynn:
Good. Well, you are so very welcome. And thank you again, everybody who's listening to this. If you enjoyed this conversation, if you learned something, be sure to share it with your friends. I don't plug this out and advertise and stuff like that, but I do. I do trust for you all to pass it on to other people. So please do That and share it with your friends and be aware that the elegant pivot is coming out soon announcement if you're on the coaching digest is pending. And if you want to subscribe to the coaching digest, you just go to Lynn Carnes calm, there is a subscribe button up at the top. And you will also have access to a special coaching call I'm going to do about your step places on assuming positive intent and maybe some ideas on how to do it for just for the subscribers in the coaching digest. So look for that. And we'll see you on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
Listen On
