#27 Vernon Roberts: Creating Authentic Communication in a Virtual Conversation
When the shutdowns started happening last year, we all had to take our “engagement game” up to another level. Suddenly, our meetings became virtual. Once we mastered the “unmute” and “turn on video” buttons, we had to also master keeping people engaged without the benefit of being in the same room. We could no longer read body language…or yawns.
Vernon Roberts started mastering virtual engagement before it was cool. He and I worked together in the 90’s, teaching accounting, banking, loan approvals and other dry topics. In that environment, Vernon brought life to the classroom. When he formed Evoke Virtual in 2003, he was ahead of his time.
As it often does, this conversation took many interesting turns; not surprisingly, it was engaging start to finish. He has so many tips and tricks, from setting context, using open ended questions, understanding our own interests in a conversation, to hearing what really matters to those we are talking to.
Vernon Roberts is an author, master instructor, coach and speaker. Vernon creates a positive learning environment and provides masterful coaching that allows participants to achieve rapid and permanent growth in their skills as communicators and presenters. Vernon coaches and consults face-to-face and virtually in the U.S., Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.
Co-author of The Gift of Success and Happiness (Skyhorse Publishing, 2011), Vernon challenges readers to transform their lives by utilizing dynamic business process principles. He has also published in T+D magazine and client newsletters and delivered seminars on work-life balance to audiences in such institutions as the Wake Forest University Schools of Business. Vernon holds a B.A. in Economics/Business Administration from Western Maryland College (now McDaniel College) and an M.B.A. from Loyola University’s Sellinger School of Business and Management in Baltimore, Maryland.
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Intro:
Welcome to creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. In this episode, I am speaking with Vernon Roberts of evoke virtual. Think about the people you have walked with through fire. Vernon is one of those people with me. And we went through some pretty serious challenges when we worked together in banking in the 1990s. As he says in this conversation, in many ways, we were ahead of our time, and neither one of us would have it any other way. We have some fun stories in this podcast about what we experienced and what we learned together. Now, these days, Vernon specializes in engaging learning in a virtual world. And again, he started this business in 2003, way ahead of his time on that as well. You're going to hear what he has learned over the last 20 years in this conversation. In fact, I was so engaged, that we could have gone much longer than we did. He shares many of his secrets to creating engagement and just wait till you hear the metaphor he uses. To illustrate why engagement matters so much. It's a picture that I will always remember. Here's what Vernon has to say about his own work. He creates a positive learning environment and provides masterful coaching. Yes, indeed, that allows participants to achieve rapid and permanent growth in their skills as communicators and presenters, frankly, we all want people who've been trained by Vernon, to be teaching us on any kind of online forum, Vernon coaches and consults face to face and virtually in the United States, Europe, the Middle East and Africa. In other words, people all over the world have had the benefit of getting his wisdom. Here's what I would ask. If you love this conversation, let me know, I have a podcast or a voicemail button actually on my podcast page. It's learn karns.com slash podcast. And just to the right there's a send a voicemail button. I love getting those messages. And we can also it's also the really great way to share messages with the guests if you want to. So I hope you enjoy this podcast with Vernon. And of course, if you do, share it with your friends and colleagues. Darren, welcome to the podcast.
Vernon:
Thank you, Lynn.
Lynn:
We're here. We've had so many conversations that I thought we should have hit the record button on. And today I hit the record button.
Vernon:
So over the years, I'm sure.
Lynn:
So I I never know how I'm going to start one of these conversations. But I'm going to actually start with what we were doing right before we got here, because that's what just hits me as a juicy sort of discussion to start with. So many years ago, remind me I'll have to look at the copyright, you sent me your book, the gift of success and happiness. And you had an interesting response. When I said that which was almost like, you immediately knew what you would have done better. Like you have a whole list of things you would have done better on this book.
Vernon:
Yes.
Lynn:
And as a recent author, I've published two books, both of which I have a long list of things that I wish I would have done better. But you print this sucker, you put it out in the world, it's in people's hands, it's like, it's almost feels like you're supposed to have reached something and and therefore you have to stand behind it. So tell me about your experience of having a book. I share this that you would have changed if you could have changed it now.
Vernon:
Look, I think it's it's about a point in time. Right? Right it, you have certain beliefs and certain thoughts at a point in time and you want to get those across. And what I if I look back on it, I would have made the book shorter and more to the point. I like some of the concepts that are in there. But as we evolve over the last 10 years, I would say I would have made it more open as well because there's so many things that have happened in our world in the last 10 years. That I think there aren't as many black and white areas and everything is a little more gray. Think the book portrays
Lynn:
No, yeah,
Vernon:
about life from a business principle perspective is a good way to start. But then life happens in, there's so many things that I always say that in my family. And in my experiences, I could be on one of those, those TV shows that were everything happens to your family. And you say, wow, that on that show, there's so many things that did that did the office put in everything that could possibly happen to a family. And I've experienced a lot of those things. And that's, obviously informs some of my thoughts and my opinions.
Lynn:
The word you use when you said open, what struck me when I revisited it all these years later, was that it had a more, it even has a box as a picture. It's a matrix,
Vernon:
like a Rubik's Cube,
Lynn:
it's like a Rubik's Cube for people who are listening, just so you can imagine. It's like a Rubik's cube of sort of the parts of our lives and in the approach to our lives that we can have and where our stresses come from. And what struck me as I read pieces of it and put my hands on it again, after exactly that, this book seems to have a stronger opinion than you are now. In other words, you're more open now than you were when you read this book.
Vernon:
Forced to be that way. For us to be that way. Yes.
Lynn:
Because life challenges us and you know, your, your specialty we work to so people will have heard this in the introduction. But you and I work together at Bank of America, and we were in the, we lead a very large, complex learning group. And you and I really walk side by side on going from being what I would call a closed learning system to an open learning system.
Vernon:
We were ahead of our time.
Lynn:
We were We were ahead of our time, and we paid the price for being there, because it's a lot bloodier on the front end the profits.
Vernon:
The profits, yeah. And
Lynn:
he's using the profits with the pH not the fit. Yes.
Vernon:
That's exactly right. I didn't think is that but yes,
Lynn:
yes, exactly. And so just a quick, like, how would you describe, I don't want to do it, like, Bank of America that made us the profits that got to be paid for the way we did it. And yet, I know now, for sure, it was the right way to go about it.
Vernon:
I was like, I was reading a book last week, about the rise and fall of we work, the company. And there was a phrase they use in that book called yoga babble. And I thought of some of the terms we use back in the late 90s as things that we talked about today. But if you think of a financial institution in the in the 90s, and thinking about yoga principles, and bringing those into a financial services, meeting, those be like oil and water, and that's, I think the place where we were yoga babble just struck me not that I don't believe in those concepts. But I can understand how people would say, What are you talking about? Exactly.
Lynn:
I would like, let's give a for instance, of what we were using, because I'm trying to remember I'm My mind is searching for things like I know, one word we could never use is energy, like talking about somebody energy, which we use all the time now.
Vernon:
Back then energy energy wasn't really a tangible thing that people could put their hands on, it was more of a mystical way we used it, I believe, right. But energy has been used in every leadership book in the last 15 years. Thank you and how we manage our energy, but it but in that time, it wasn't an accepted principle, I don't believe and that was around the same time as as some books were coming out, like on emotional intelligence.
Lynn:
Right. I remember Goldman's book.
Vernon:
exactly what I was thinking about. Yeah,
Lynn:
yeah, it came out. And I actually I could probably find it in my files. But I remember I wrote an email. I'm not an email, a memo. This is back when we didn't have email. We actually wrote memos. And I wrote a memo to a lot of the commercial banking heads about the value of emotional intelligence, and both managing credit and in managing the sales of loans. And I am pretty sure everybody thought Lynne had gone off her rocker. Because I was taught we were trying to teach what we called emotional intelligence. I think we use the word emotional literacy. And that was the other thing you couldn't tell About her was considered emotion. Yoga babble was the impact of emotions on our work.
Vernon:
And the fact that you were supposed to bring your work self to work, and leave your other stuff home.
Unknown:
Oh my gosh back
Vernon:
that is not the case. And when we look at the book you buy book with chips to wiki. As I look at the Rubik's Cube, just the fact that we chose a Rubik's Cube type of type of image says to me that there are walls in between some of these things like we talked about financial stress and time stress and social stress and, and if and then self career marriage excetera. And, and today, I look at it and I think of it more as a stew. If you know what I mean. Yes, it's more of a mixture. And there's no wall between anything of between any of these things. So they all bleed into the next thing myself leads into my career bleeds into my marriage, bleeds into time stress. And it's not as black and white. That's what I was saying earlier. It's not as black and white as the book may portray, but it's more, it's more gray.
Lynn:
Well, if anything has shown us that it's been this last year, because you know, people who were like, going to work with their makeup on or, or their suit and tie on or whatever, and leaving the kids at home and making sure the dogs were like fed before they left and all that, boom, all of a sudden we go into the Zoomer revolution is last year, and whatever was going on behind us, and we've all gotten really good at looking on what's going on behind the scenes, on our calls, right? The video calls, you know, everybody knows what the backgrounds are, or they put up a you know, electronic background or whatever. But our kids are there that I saw a video. This was on the news, where the VAC Murphy was Murthy, what the Surgeon General was on a background and his kid kept popping through. And the newscaster gives Gayle King, I think one of my favorite she had to say you have to tell us who that is of popping through your background. And it was almost like a metaphor for what you're talking about Vernon, we can't leave it. We're all one thing.
Vernon:
And you're right, that has really shown itself in the last ever since the beginning of the pandemic where we're all forced into this shared context of the virtual world where someone is forced to work at home, and they may not even have room to work at home. So they may be working out a kitchen or sitting on a living room sofa. And, and they're in their world. But they're also in their business world. And I remember about several years ago, there was a something that went viral and it was a newscaster This is before the pandemic. And I think it was on CNN or BBC or one of those and the newscast. It was very buttoned up from his home office and he was speaking and, and his kid burst through the back from a door. And then his wife crawled on the floor to try to get the kid. And this went viral. I think you might remember it. I wish I could remember the name of the gentleman, but I don't. But the key takeaway from that was the gentleman tried to ignore everything that was going on. He stayed buttoned up, he stayed facing forward and talking when the world was watching this kid and his wife. And he wasn't authentic. He could have turned around and said he said something and laughed about it. But and that's the difference today between Are you connecting and being authentic to what's really going on in your life in the world? Are you trying to hold up this facade, and especially during the pandemic, this is what has been happening. And when you know, I've been working. I've been working virtually since 2010. And I teach people how to manage virtual. So in 2020, we were in our wheelhouse. And the biggest change we saw was prior to the pandemic, there was so much rigor around being virtual. Yet now we're so much more forgiving because everyone has been forced into the same context of I get that you're in your kitchen. I'm not as much worried about your background as I was in 2018 as far as being buttoned up and being business like oh, I was gonna call yesterday by dog is barking. You can't help that the kids are coming but you can't help those things. So we'll see become much more forgiving. And really, to your point of understanding that we can't separate, we can't have that firewall between our life and our work. Because now it's, it's together. But the fallacy is that it's always been together. That was a lie that it was never, that you could never bring your you could never come to work and not bring yourself bring your life.
Lynn:
Well, and we didn't we all know it, right? Because, you know, when we were working together back at Bank of America, one of the cool things that started happening is we created a context where we would start a meeting by checking in and seeing how everybody started the day, you know, because the fight or the traffic or whatever happened that was coming in the door with us. Until we could say, hey, ya know, I had a really rough morning, couldn't get out of the dry cleaners, which I don't even use anymore. You know, or the traffic was terrible, or whatever, given somebody a chance to like, speak, what was happening, would just level set the whole conversation. And then we were all in the room together to solve the problems we were there to solve.
Vernon:
And that was a little bit Voodoo, like back then it was in the 90s. But you're right, that that affects us. And if we could come to grips with what's affecting us coming into that meeting, we can all have a shared context at that point, where we can make a connection, because everything is about context.
Lynn:
Yeah. Well, you've used that language several times. And yeah, do you remember how much we what we found, like, close way of learning. And what I mean by that is, we shifted from closed, meaning we're gonna stand up and lecture to you, and your learning yield is like less than 10%. But by golly, we got all the facts out of our mouth, and you should have gotten them into your head, that was kind of the idea. And we shifted to a more open way, which meant, it was like a discovery based way where the participants actually had to have a give and take. But if we did not have a good container of context of shared context, where mistakes are okay, where we're going to focus on reaching a big picture, but it's along the way, you're going to be discovering things, and you're going to find some dead ends, and so forth. We became masters, I think of using context as a way to get people engaged.
Vernon:
And that is the foundation of everything for me as we as we go forward. And even in this virtual world, because setting context gets people engaged up front. Now, immediately, we have something shared together and that we believe, I believe that has to happen in the first minute or so, at least in this module world. Yes. And one of the things we say is that, I think it's critical, especially when you're trying to get information across, as I say, engagement, before content, for content, and the way I envision that is if I am, if I have a pitcher full of content of smashed into a water. And unless you're engaged, you're not going to put out your glass. And I can pour all the water out of my picture I want. But unless you offer me your glass, it's gonna go all over the table and you won't be received. I have to set up that engagement early and that shared context, in the first minute or so in order for my your listener or your audience, to be receptive to what you're saying. We might think because reporting the content, that people are getting it, but just because you're talking doesn't mean people are hearing, you
Lynn:
know, and, and I remember feeling this like this, this felt like somebody came into me and said, I have the answer to this problem. I don't go put my cup out. Right? Because I don't think you know me yet. It's like, you've got the answer to your problem. But you have not, you don't know if this is going to help me or not. So I actually rather than putting my cup out, I tend to cross my arms and like put the cup out of my reach. Like I'm like, I don't have you don't have anything to teach me, because you haven't even heard what's going on with me yet. And so I think there's a piece of engagement. And that's probably me being a little bit difficult to get along with. But there's a probably a piece of engagement that involves get understanding where your audiences.
Vernon:
I think it's all about understanding where your audience is. Because you should be always listener focused. And it's not about well, here's another thing that I learned with you back in the late 90s. What it's not about you could have worn a T shirt that said, it's not about you. And the funny thing is when we came back from some of those trainings, my wife would say, well, I've told you that for years But it's really not about us. And especially now when we're communicating, especially in this virtual world, it's not about us, it's about our audience. And we want to make sure we understand our audience before in order to engage them to pick out to connect with them to find out what's important. But when that involves us asking questions of our audience,
Lynn:
I know, I know, you actually have to open yourself up. And this is another piece of the close thing close means I make statements open means I asked her a question that I actually want the answer to, and don't know what they're gonna say.
Vernon:
And it's not like an attorney. You know, they say, attorneys only ask questions they know the answers to right. But we want to ask questions that we don't know the answer to. But the key part to that, Lynne, for me is that when I ask a question, I have to be totally present. That's another word we used back in the late 90s, to listen to what they're saying and actually take it in. And not instead to create a dialogue from that to not only listen, and connect to what they're saying, but ask a question to go deeper into what they're saying. And I think the failure today, what we do is when you might say something, and it triggers something in of what I've done, and I'll pull that out and say, Hey, Lynn, that's like something that I did bla bla bla bla, and I'll tell my story. Yeah, so that's my point. I've failed. Because I have connected, I've just made it about me.
Lynn:
I'm 100% guilty of that, too.
Vernon:
Instead of digging in and saying, Wow, well, how did that feel for you?
Lynn:
Yeah, or tell me more?
Vernon:
Tell me more. That's I love that phrase is my favorite all my classes. Tell me more? Because that's the only, especially when I'm being attacked? with a question that I don't know. I say, Wow, tell me more about that. Because that's the only thing I can say, by judgment and anger seeping through in my voice, I can say, tell me more and just keep quiet.
Lynn:
And that Okay, so I want to dive in on that. Because you and I both learned this as well, when we're being attacked. First of all, when you do an open style of learning, where you allow a given take, you are going to get things that can hit your buttons. Doesn't even necessarily mean they're attacking us. But it hits at least it hits my buttons for when I feel like they're questioning me. This is a classic one, and especially because, uh, you and I lead a lot of change projects, right? How many times did we hear that won't work? And let me tell you why.
Vernon:
Remember, specific points on the West Coast? different sessions, where where I heard that many times in an open session with 100 people in the room.
Lynn:
That's exactly right. And and that as soon as one person was said, That won't work, there'd be that ripple through the audience where they're all say, No, it won't. And all of a sudden, you're standing up there represent got 100 people from the west going, we're about to take you out because this isn't going to work. And we're not going to let it work. And so we'd have to have what we call pocket questions. And, you know, one of mine was what would work? Right? I'd have to repose the problem step back. And I could say what would work? And that way I could keep the conversation going instead of going? Yes, it will. And they told us because this was where I'd want to go? Yes, it will. This is what they told us we have to do. My job is to get you to do it. So do it. Damn it.
Vernon:
Yeah, that's because today if I think of that question, what would work? That's even a more directed question that is framed. So then the person is thinking about what could happen where when you ask, tell me more? That is so unframed. Yes. And then you you get more emotion, you could get anything out of that. And I love that much better than what would work because what would work frames them into this process, thinking where I would say, well Tell me more. And if I say that, they could give me a month, they could give me anything that I, which I love, which I like much better, because then I can work with that. So it all depends on what you want to get out of that. Right? If you want to get something that structured and framed around the process that you're talking about, that you're trying to change, or do you want to get to the root of Why won't this work? Well, cuz given I'm mad that all my leaders aren't being accepted in this new organization, and none of our ideas are being accepted.
Lynn:
Right And that's, that's that emotional part. of the change curve, which we saw over and over again, and I heard and have felt this myself, whenever there's a merger or something changes, my leaders are not being accepted. It is it is that we have spent years building our personal capital with this organization. We now have a reputation. That is we can get the job done. And I don't even think I used to think this, but I don't anymore that people were like resting on their laurels. No, they were using their personal capital to get things done. And when new people come in God, you lose it.
Vernon:
It's a loss. It's a death.
Lynn:
It's a death. It's like having your bank account empty. Yeah, right. Because it's an energetic bank account. I'll use that word. It's a it's a form of goodwill that we have, that we suddenly lost that we have to like, re earn our way into this new way. That's what they were pissed about.
Vernon:
Yes, and then but I think back to those days, also, we had to check we shouldn't we had to check ourselves to make sure that we weren't on the side of the right. Kareena, not the right or left, but yeah, correct way to, to move forward, when in fact, maybe there were some middle way. That could have worked better?
Lynn:
Well, there wasn't in the way we did mergers, there wasn't a lot of give and take. It was a it was it's our way or the highway. And, you know, the systems, like it was almost a turnkey, I always said if you want a great project managers, go to the bank bankers or the office, the project manager of that era, because it was a turnkey, I mean, these were complex projects, but they knew how to do them. And it was like, we do this. And then we do this, we move this system over, we changed the names, we change the branding, we take the signs down, we put up the new signs, you know, there's not a there's not a moment of reflection that says, oh, gosh, I went from being First Republic to NC NB, you know, was just what happened to me. It was like, I'm from Texas, I don't I don't understand having to be in a bank that's starts with NC. Ironically, I'm living in North Carolina now but
Vernon:
as as well as myself. But when we say this is I think about an all they wanted was to be on a level playing field, but there's some credit to being in the acquirer. Right? And, and I was having a conversation with my wife about, about something like this this morning about golf, and I was reading an article about how African American players are being allowed to they're being helped by the PGA to be able to play in the Korn ferry and different events, and they're going to pay their they're going to pay their expenses. And they're just trying to solve an economic problem. But in the end, is one of the golfers said, whether I'm black, white, Asian, whatever, I still have to shoot a 65 on the same course, that everybody else ships. Yes. So once I get the door open to me because of an economic, you know, lopsided ness, I still have to shoot a 65. And what I realized that those people back in the day just wanted the door open to them, right, in a level playing field, so they could show how good they were. And they didn't have to lose their, their their credibility that they used from their bank account. Right. And could bank account
Lynn:
they had they had worked on,
Vernon:
worked on for so long. Yeah.
Lynn:
Well, and what I love about this idea of the needing to shoot a 65 is the idea that we that to some degree, like, nature doesn't care. The game doesn't care. Exactly the game. It does not care who you are, how you are the game or in like I listened to I wrote an article on LinkedIn about this. You back in the day when Tim Ferriss did the Tim Ferriss show where he or the Tim Ferriss experiment, and he went to learn things in a week and then do them and he was surfing with Laird Hamilton and Laird Hamilton. This is one of the coolest clips I've ever looked at, because he was talking about fear as it related to being on the ocean, and he's one of the greatest surfers that's ever lived. And he said, let me tell you something, you better be afraid out there. The ocean doesn't care who you are. The ocean isn't going to say, Gosh, this guy didn't know how to surf. So I'm going to take my waves down so he didn't really get crushed in the coral. You only need to show up where you are able to show up. Don't go show up on big waves and act like you know how to do something ocean doesn't care. And what I love about that is it's a way to aspire to really building who we are our tools. And how do we give people a shot to do that? So I just love that idea that Yeah, I've somebody had to let me in the door because there was a there was a disparity. In other words, I couldn't get on the ocean. But once I'm on the ocean, I still have to surf that way.
Vernon:
Yeah, but the ocean is not like business today, there are opportunities today, which I wish that I wish that it were. And I wish that it was also like golf where I get in the door and I shoot a 65. But you have to think that or you might agree that if you look at companies today and opportunities, somebody has their finger on the scale. And they can tip the balance here, whether you're good or not, whether it's not like if I shoot a 65 I'm in you know, my work could be stolen by someone else my boss could push me down my co workers get there could not be trusting whatever could happen. And, and just because I should have 65 in companies today, I might even get hired cuz I don't look like the person hiring. Yes. So life isn't like companies and opportunities today aren't like the ocean who doesn't care. It doesn't care about you. It's gonna do it, it does. And either you go with it, or you don't, you know, if you get caught in a Riptide either you get pulled out like the ocean once you to and don't struggle, and then swim around it to come back. But you can get plowed over today and companies that's that's where a lot of people are worrying about these opportunities, especially for people of color in the world.
Lynn:
The finger on the scale really resonates with me, because I was listening to navall raava Khan, who's a Silicon Valley, have you heard of him? Do you know he is? So I think he's brilliant. And I was. And he was basically speaking to one of his sayings is basically what you were describing on the on the golf course, which is we can't we should guarantee equal opportunity. We should not we cannot guarantee equal outcomes. And the thing he talked about was the fate also the level, he said the finger on the scale, not just with humans, but with our algorithms. And this is this is not just in social media, this is algorithms in credit, quality, credit. Now it's algorithms and who gets to rent a car, it's algorithms and risk management, life insurance rates, you name it, there's a finger on the scale, programmed by humans, by the way, self driving cars, those cars are being programmed to decide how many deaths it's going to have, am I going to? Am I going to kill the person in the car or the three on the sidewalk? And so my, what I'm leading up to is, so how in the business world, or in just societal world when there is a finger on the scale, which is like a big wave away. But but but that cares? How do we play that game? In a way that doesn't devastate? That's
Vernon:
it? That's a big question. And that's one of the things when I look at the book are my book with chip. That's one of the things that over the years since that book, I think we kind of disagree on a little bit around. Chip felt that what you're saying about equal opportunity that we can provide equal opportunity for people to go ahead and shoot a 65. Right. And as I look at the world the last 10 or 12 years, that is such a hard thing to do, how do you just because you think you're providing equal opportunity, but then now we're talking about, like you said, the the algorithm algorithms, the things that we think are fair, but were written by people. That is like this negative effect. And we think it's the ocean, but it's we think it's the way but it's really not the wave, it's the finger on the scale. It's the invisible finger on the scale. And we think we're giving a blob of awkward opportunity. And I know, Chip, and I'd had a lot of discussions about assimilation of different groups into the normal repertoire called the Borg. But he did it. Yeah. And that and that is another thing where I think well, why do they need to assimilate? Yeah. And what is the norm?
Lynn:
Set aside what are similar? Looks like Yes,
Vernon:
yes. Yes, that's, that's a broader question. Bigger than this conversation.
Lynn:
Well, we and I don't want to necessarily dive down that rabbit hole because it can get very complex and dicey for one thing, but also You know what, what, what I really what we really like, the thread I really want to follow is this idea of how to engage people. So they held their cup out.
Vernon:
Yes.
Lynn:
And, and how to engage everybody. So they held their cup out? And how do we start seeing people as individuals so that that if we're in a conversation that there might be six reasons they hold their cup out? Right, right, because I just did my first zoom. Like where I was the facilitator of a larger group A couple of weeks ago, up for my blog here in a couple of weeks, where we're going to do a q&a on, on zoom about really, around assuming positive intent. This is the place where people are getting really stuck with me is they're like, I absolutely 100% know that that person does not have positive intent. Now what? And so I want to have a given take in that zoom, where everybody's coming from a different place, but my brain wants the shortcut, like our brains are wired to look for the shortcut. That's why we can't draw, you remember drawing remember Betty Edwards book drawing on the right side of the brain? Right, she, she teaches us why it's so hard like, at some point, in elementary school, we stopped drawing cars that look like cars, or we never really learned to draw cars that look like cars, we, we do the shortcut, our brain says okay, two circles, a box, a windshield, and depending on, you know, we end up with something that is the shortcut. And then she teaches you to actually see it upside down. Realize, for example, that every room you're in, you think you're seeing square corners, but if you have to draw it, I'm looking at my office, which is full of bookshelves and corners, almost nothing is actually a square or a 90 degree angle. How do you start seeing all the different nuances, the shadows, and so forth. And that's to me, what you do with your engagements so beautifully is you see the nuances, the shadows, you see the different parts of different people and allow all of them to have their reason for buying into what you're talking about, not
Vernon:
have experienced the same experiences you're talking about a few weeks ago, actually, just around Christmas, we got my granddaughter, a drawing book. And so I, I took art and college etc. And, and so what I had to do was take a picture of herself and grid it out. You know what that means is like I said, grid, we do grids on our picture. And then I said, you just take one box. And I want you to draw one grid, nice. And it's not going to look like what you think I want you to draw. Because it's really like look for the shadows and draw the shadows, and then that everything will emerge out of that. And what you're saying is we want to draw the lines, we want to draw the corners. But now there's so much more involved there. So let's draw the shaded areas. And it's hard to, like look at look at that picture. What do you really see, do you see a line there for the nose? No, you see, light and darkness, let's draw the light darkness. And then know that from that if you get enough of that, that will emerge. And I think part of what we're talking about, is really understanding people and these difficult conversations that we have. And I had a situation where, you know, after the death of George Floyd a little over a year ago, been going through this a little bit of a transformation and, and really trying to have difficult conversations with people. And I had one person that we'd had difficult conversations and we were pushing on each other. And what I realized land from our first conversation is that I was pushing back the whole conversation. And what I realized a week or two later, was that I didn't listen. And I did that. And I really didn't know this person. So what I did was I called the person up, and we went out and sat at a Starbucks. And I just asked questions. Well, I just asked questions. And I found out so many things about this person that I didn't know that do we do we agree on things. Not all the way. And that wasn't expected, but I know possibly where some of the beliefs came from. And, and I know there's a little bit more context to the relationship, but it's really about asking, and I think we need to ask, in order to make connections, because it's not about us.
Lynn:
If we have to ask and then we have to listen for the answer.
Vernon:
And that's what we don't do is we don't listen. We don't listen. We try to connect instead of being totally present and invested in what the person is saying and being forcing yourself to be inquisitive, like you said like I don't know the answer. Then what is my next question? And I teach this also to sales folks, when they're with customers, because sometimes I call them breadcrumb questions where they just want to ask questions to lead them to sell their product. They know they can get them. But I say no, I want you to ask questions to understand. And if it's going to take you away from where you thought you were going even better, because you might learn things that will make the deal for you even bigger, instead of having blinders on on this one, one thing that you want to attack, when you ask questions, you may get seven things you could attack with that customer. But we're afraid to do that, because we're afraid to get in a place where it might be out of my comfort zone to discuss. Yeah. And that's what we just need to dive into that discomfort. And we are smart enough to know what we're going to talk about next. So I always think about what I'm going to say next has to be linked to what that person just said.
Lynn:
Have you ever played with improv the yes and game?
Vernon:
Yes. We have done that in our workshops as well, yes. It forces people to stick to the end, we play a game where no matter what you say, I have to transition from what you said to this other thing. So I have to really listen to you. And what we find is that people like it, I wouldn't lend say, I don't know, I was thinking this other thing. Yeah, it forces you to stay in it to the very last to that person stops talking. And then trust yourself to be able to improv that it can make a connection.
Lynn:
I completely blew it. The first time I played that game. We were doing something with Duke corporate education, which you and I both work with. And they were teaching, we were up in New York City teaching this and they gave us the description. And I was the first person to go after the person started. And I just took it off on some weird thing. And actually, she didn't stop me. I wish she had in some ways. They let it keep going. But she came back later and said, You know what? It was so early, I didn't know how to stop you. But I realized that I've had to really work on learning how to take what somebody is giving me like to listen and not just use it to launch on my agenda. And I was thinking back back to the conversation. Okay, so putting on my hair I I'm putting on sort of the hat of imagining that I'm in a conversation with you, like your, your colleague or friend or acquaintance was where you were pushing back and trying to find, like a way through a difficult conversation and where I get stuck. And I'm really I've really been working on this, but I still get stuck sometimes is I don't want to be wrong. I don't want to have to own that I missed something or that I'm being insensitive, or that I'm blind or whatever wrong. Looks like I don't want to be wrong. So I work really hard to be right. Which means I'm going to resist anything that shows up as me having been an idiot at some point.
Vernon:
That's never happened to me.
Lynn:
I wish I could see it. Just joking.
Vernon:
That Yes, yes. When you said looking back and I don't want to have been an idiot at points. Yes. I've been in many conversations where I said wow, I had blinders on in that conversation. And, and I don't know if it was as much being right, but it was fighting for something I believed in. And and I know what I believed in it I listen to me, is right. It's just it's just there's a lot of complexity around different things and why people have different beliefs and we just have to understand those and others. And and and realize that we may not always see it the same way and that's okay. How does it hurt somebody?
Lynn:
Yes. Especially you kill somebody these times. These times where you've killed somebody where that one was George Floyd where that was just, it's it's almost like yeah,
Vernon:
list of names to to
Lynn:
where there was time for the people involved to gather their thoughts because sometimes there is not time to gather your thoughts and it's a reaction and that's different, I think, or at least more understandable but nine minutes There was plenty of time for that police officer together here
Vernon:
was. But if you look at some of these things, bad things happen within less than 90 seconds of the police getting their split second, yeah, split second, it leads me to believe it. I hadn't thought at this. But remember, we talked about this shared context. And in those 90 seconds, there is no shared context.
Lynn:
Now, just the preconceived notions you come in with,
Vernon:
and I'm going to bring that back to what we haven't talked about this, but the ladder of inference is always on my mind. Yeah, it's always on my mind, it's just imagine in those 90 seconds, think about the ladder of inference and overlay that over those situations, from the police view the person first and the view that's involved, and how that is so tangled up, and there's no time for them to stay low on the ladder. They can't.
Lynn:
Well, it's life. They're having to assess. And I believe that the personal work that's required to stay low on the ladder of inference is way under estimated.
Vernon:
Because you don't know whether it's you or the situation, I don't know whether it's my beliefs leaking over. It's almost like johari window, where I just imagine the story about this person looking out of a window? And is my window dirty? Do I need to clean my window before I can see anything else on the other side? Because if my window is dirty, it distorts everything else? I think that's what you're talking about. About 100 words needed to clean my window that I view the world in in order to then see what's really happening or am I overlaying my, my beliefs on somebody else.
Lynn:
On top of that, because you're talking about a vision thing, which is true with our filters, we only see what we choose to see, you know, the old yellow Volkswagen thing. Remember, we talked about that, you know, when you go look for a car, whether it's a yellow Volkswagen or a Subaru up here in the mountains, everybody drives super well, when I went looking for cars, I didn't notice that until I was thinking, Okay, what should I look for here in the mountains, I'm going to need all wheel drive. I mean, as soon as I started, like, looking all of a sudden, Subarus were everywhere. And just kind of like yellow Volkswagens are everywhere. I see one almost every day I was actually having a conversation with one of my old college professors in Wichita Falls a couple of weeks ago. And as we were having this kind of conversation, a yellow folks, we were outside in a coffee shop, yellow Volkswagen drove by, I was like, see, they're everywhere. But my filters are open to them. So my windows cleaned for yellow Volkswagens. So the work to clean my window also is to go with the work to deal with the inner sensations and feelings I have, which I think of as signals versus noise. So when that little, like you'd go back to the 90 seconds, those guys come in, and they're going to get an adrenaline kick, because something's happening, or they're trying to figure out is there a weapon? Is there a situation? What is it? Their adrenaline's kicking, and they can't they can't slow themselves down enough if they haven't done the work to go, this is a dangerous situation or not, I can bring this back down. And, you know, and and my daughter used to work at Waffle House, you know, Jim, yes, when she was at Waffle House, she had she was a manager at Waffle House and turned actually took the one in Asheville, white just really increase their profitability because she actually has, I think a lot raise because of her history of living on the, in the drug addiction world for a few years of reading people and reading intent. And she's really good at knowing how to de escalate it, and versus escalate. And she had at her store in Asheville, a fair number of homeless people that she would have to kick out and she'd have to figure out she was almost like, as the manager a bouncer. Right. And she needed to do it in a way that that kept their dignity because she knew if she escalated, she's not going to just hurt that person. She's going to hurt everybody in the store. And then we'll have to call the police and yada yada. So she got to be so good at that that Waffle House had her you go to the Atlanta store when she was still working there on New Year's to work the overnight shift, because they didn't that basically asked her to be the manager bouncer because they did not want to escalate.
Vernon:
And that's the key word we're talking about, like de de escalation.
Lynn:
Can you take a different sculpt situation and make it call rather than reach for your weapons.
Vernon:
And I think, to do that, and and so, to create context, to do that,
Lynn:
you have to have that context. Plus, you also have to have a really good enter sense of those tip of the arrow decisions and moments of time to say I can, I can de escalate, but I could just as easily fall off the cliff. And, you know, the really high level athletes do this all the time. Like in my sport of skiing, we talk about being willing to miss it to make it to go around the buoys. As I've learned to ride horses, one of my instructors will often say go to the edge, go to the edge, go to the edge, which is the edge is the horse is going to, I'm getting the horse to go to a certain guy, but he could run off at a gallop, which isn't, you know, it's really not fun to be on a runaway $1,000 $1,000 sorry, 1000 pound animal.
Vernon:
So it goes back to what you were saying. Lynn about? Tell me more. Yeah. Like, how do I de escalate, you always see the shows where the negotiator tries to talk a person down and you're trying to get the other person to talk? Right, right. They're trying to get the other person to talk and maybe understand that. Yeah, and I think that's key, it comes keep coming back. So you don't wanna be talking about the ladder of inference. I want to stay low on the ladder and keep collecting data. Cuz I don't want to jump off, I don't want to climb the ladder with a little bit of data I have, I want to get more data. And that goes back to even when we're negotiating. If you go back to some of the Harvard negotiating principles, there's interest versus position. Yes, right. I may be filling my position out there. But underneath my position is my interest. But the challenge is that sometimes today, we don't get to know people enough to get their interest. All we hear is their position. It's like when you go like when the guy goes into the dealership, and he says, My position is I want to buy this car for $25,000. And that's all I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm gonna pay. That's my position. But where's my interest? Maybe I want a low payment. Maybe I want to save up for something a big vacation, and I don't want to spend as much money on a car. Yeah, but I'm not going to. But if I ask questions, like, if I'm a salesperson? Can you spend 27? That's not the question. The question is, tell me, what's going, what's going in your thought pattern around 25,000? would just tell me more about that decision.
Lynn:
Right? How did you come to that?
Vernon:
How did you come to that? How
Lynn:
did you come to 25? Or, you know, what, what else? And it could be that it's 25. Because I'm about to buy two other cars, and I can only afford $25,000 cars.
Vernon:
I have no idea unless we have like,
Lynn:
we have to ask, and we have to listen, and we have to hear?
Vernon:
Yes, both of those things.
Lynn:
You distinguish between listening and hearing? Because there is about I think there is a distinction. And
Vernon:
the way people, I just look at it from this perception perspective. When people say I hear you. What what feeling do you get when people say I hear you?
Lynn:
I almost put my fingers up and across? I mean, I don't feel I don't feel heard when you say I hear you, actually because usually it's followed by but yes, I hear you, but I'm gonna do what I want to anyway.
Vernon:
I think you can hear people without listening. You really have to listen, and connect. And they're also listening biases to you have to realize that we are I mean, this, obviously, this is all complicated because we think about ladder of inference collecting more data. That's a construct. But now we're talking about listening biases. And if I'm really listening, then I have to realize I have some biases in that and what are my listening biases. And maybe if you're a big picture thinker, and I'm not a big picture thinker, all of a sudden, when you start talking about big picture, and I'm not a big picture thinker, then I start to fade away and I stopped listening as much. And I have to realize, wow, I'm starting to fade away, I need to lock in on what Lynn is saying. So it's really how do we listen? Are you a good listener? What are you listening for? So it takes a lot and it again, it links again with what you were talking about, about our filters and our filters blocked Something that we're hearing and that we're not able to listen to,
Lynn:
and let it in and let it
Vernon:
listen and let it in
Lynn:
letting it in, like, What's an answer? What is an example of a listening bias just so I understand what you're what kind of thing it could be. And then I'll tell you what
Vernon:
the example I gave, say if you're a conceptual, a conceptual thinker, and that's the way you think, and big concepts, right? And if I am way more grounded, that I can't get there. If I can't get there, and your speak speaking in this way, it's hard for me to listen to you. Because I can't, I can't handle big, I need something more granular than what you're talking about today.
Lynn:
Yeah, something like, because I am a conceptual thinker, and talker and big picture, you know, with the Herman brain dominance instrument, I'm a high D, yellow, which is strategic and experimental. And there's a I have to, for example, when I'm teaching, when it's time to give instructions, I expect people to collect connect the dots. So I'll give them a big picture of what they're supposed to do. Without saying, first that do this, do this, do this, you know, here's your sequence, I've had to learn how to give very clear instructions, I write it out ahead of time, I will actually tell people, I'm not good at giving instructions. So that's why I'm holding a piece of paper in my hand. And you won't ever see me read from my notes until I'm giving instructions because I need help. And they love that. And they really appreciate that I can like give them instructions,
Vernon:
repeat them twice,
Lynn:
and have to repeat them at least twice. Because the detail people love that. And the big picture, people have already gone off. They're already figuring out what they're gonna do.
Vernon:
You know, I remember back when we worked together, I think after you left I had I worked with someone named Christie. And Christie was great. We were opposites. And she was the other half of my brain. And when I would, when I was in a meeting, and I would talk big picture, all Christie could think of was, how are we going to implement this. And that, but in brains, that's not where I wanted you to be, I wanted to let's all stay in this one space. So from my perspective, there was a bias there, she couldn't stay in that space she had to think of, she couldn't stay in my conceptual thinking. But she had to have something more granular. And instead, she needed to release that or I need to be more specific. What I learned was I had to say, Okay, guys, we're in brainstorming mode right now. We're not in implementation mode, nothing I'm going to say right now, we have to worry about doing these are all ideas. So let's stay in this place. Again, setting context
Lynn:
is really important because when you are in remember, we used to use the language converging versus diverging space. So diverging space, which is brainstorming, let's pull a lot of possibilities in the room, we can't possibly do them all.
Vernon:
And you can't do those together. You can't do those
Lynn:
charging versus divergent, mega, but for some people may diverge or other people are more converters. So they want the resolution. And it's almost like jazz music. You know, in jazz music, there's all these like dis harmonies, and you just play along and you feel the like, but you're waiting for that chord that resolves and makes the music. Ah, and unless you tell somebody like you're doing setting context, saying we're going to be I also call this the froth, because it's a discomfort zone. Right? It's uncomfortable, especially for some people, but we're going to stay there and then we're going to convert will come in on how to execute and what our steps are. But the truth is, we don't even know what those steps are going to be yet. But I'm not even sure where I was going with all that. But it but knowing how to make those distinctions, I think, is very similar to that distinction between listening and hearing. It's like, these are subtleties. But knowing how to nuance your way into each one can help give people a chance to stay with you and stay engaged.
Vernon:
And you have to connect what you're talking about to what's important to that person. But you only know what's important in that person when you ask them
Lynn:
right. I really pay attention to the signals that give you about what that is. You know, because I've actually started really paying attention to subtle signals and asking people what they mean
Vernon:
yes, oh yeah, that's really important. Like what are you trying to say there? Right, we're already there.
Lynn:
I just saw something flashed through your eyes like I something hit you can you tell me what that meant? Can you You know, sometimes I have to be careful basically not even know and sometimes people don't want to get caught by that. Because the work I've been doing with learning how to get back on the horse, which has turned into a whole nother thing, learning how to read an animal that doesn't look like he's giving you any signals, but he's giving you 1000s of signals. The problem is they're subtle because he's prey. So he can't talk loud, like a dog can, you know, a dog wags his tail, a horse to softens his eyes. Can you even see that? And humans when I draw the parallels, and this is why it's gotten so interesting to me, I, you know, often they will teach in the horse world, humans are predators, horses are prey, excuse me, humans are both
Vernon:
humans see
Lynn:
prey and prey and predator. Because a human that's got like, I think a lot of times in corporate world, our survival mode puts us in a prey kind of field, where we are subject to the powers that be to our paychecks to approval to the next promotion. And in a way, if we are not aware of it, we are in a way, like prey where we are in survival mode, more than we're even aware of, just like most horses are, like most performance horses, I have learned are just following the rules so that they don't get in trouble. They're not in an engaged given tech partnership with their writer. They get beaten into submission basically, in the one I'm not talking about necessarily directly beaten, although sometimes, right. But we can't, they kind of have figured out they want to please us, and they've kind of figured out how to play that game. On the other hand, humans are also predators. Because we love to have power over. We love to get people to do what we want them to do and to have control and to, you know, honestly, without necessarily even know what we're doing. kind of put people in survival mode. Well, if you don't like this, I'll find somebody who does.
Vernon:
You don't want to get caught in the trap of not becoming a predator in order not to become prey.
Lynn:
Right? It's well and that's the dance of the parrot adult child game from Erich Fromm zwack. Remember, power overpower under, you want to be adult, you don't want to be parent or child.
Vernon:
Right? Exactly.
Lynn:
How do you power with and that we're equal and it's a given a take. And we get caught in both sides of the trap. We're we're we don't want to be either predator or prey.
Vernon:
But to your point, we do get signals. And we get signals every day from everyone. And are we do we understand? Are we willing to? Or do we even understand what we're seeing? It's almost like that saying, When, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear? Well, the teacher is always there. But when you're ready to learn something, then you're totally open to it. And that's,
Lynn:
I think that's coming in waves for me like the same situation. So like back when we talked about the book that you wrote in mind that I just wrote not long ago, and I'm in the middle of writing another one, I can already find things in both of my books that I've circled around and have another point of view around that I almost wish I could add another chapter, you know, or rewrite a chapter. Because the teacher has come, another situation arose. And the other thing that happens people if you decide to write a book is and now you've put a point in time point of view out there is you're going to get tested to see if your point of view works.
Vernon:
Yes, yes. But I think that's of any author, any book we read, times change different experiences.
Lynn:
Well, it's just like anything else, like when I talk about it with my art as well, the question is, when do you sign the painting, right? And as our art evolves, as our work evolves, we have to sign it at a point in time, we have to say this is I'm putting my stake in the ground, this is going to the publisher, this is going in the frame. This is the contract that's going to operate on with this company for the next three years or whatever. And then we'll we'll work with it as it goes. We'll get better we hope. We hope we're not devolving. We want to evolve,
Vernon:
evolve, and it will Yeah, there's that. I've read that sometimes if you're not a little bit embarrassed about your first work you put out there you haven't evolved
Lynn:
to a point.
Vernon:
Yeah, I look at some work I did. I put it on the market seven years ago and I'm like, it's okay. But I could, you know, and I can see some different things I could have done just like if I thought that 10 years ago, I thought that we could give equal opportunity for everyone was the key. And is that even possible in today's world at this point? Because it's not? Again, we're gonna we're coming back to how can you make it a level playing field by letting people in the door into a level playing field. But right now, there's so many different things, especially what's happened in the last 12 months, and realizing history that people aren't even aware of, you know, like, what happened in Tulsa, or what happened in Wilmington, North Carolina, or things like that. level, a level playing field equal opportunity, like you said, around algorithm, there's so much stuff baked into our society today, that we need to take that apart. And those algorithms that exist, that were written by folks, we need to deconstruct some of those things, because those are invisible. And if people think that, hey, you know, you got you got in the door, but there's so many invisible algorithms out there that are holding people back from moving forward. I think that's a challenge. And the problem is they're invisible to people. And they don't know what to do about it. They don't think everything's right, but it's not,
Lynn:
which they don't know how to do about it. The people, the people who want to change it, but don't see it, or the people who would who
Vernon:
don't see it, but know the people who the people in power who just don't see it and don't know they're in power.
Lynn:
Like the fish being in the water, you don't even know you don't know the waters, they're telling you don't have it anymore.
Vernon:
Exactly. What water. The fish said to the other one, after the guy said that. The water fish said that, yeah, how's the water today? And the fish said, but water? Yeah. And I look at it. And I belong to a church in South Charlotte. And we're the biggest church in the country, Catholic Church in the country. And I think the power resides, if you think about South Charlotte, predominantly white community of fleurette, relatively affluent, not as diverse, and I think that's where the power sits. And folks that are well meaning but just don't see how they could affect things.
Unknown:
Right. But
Vernon:
they don't know what's happening. And I,
Lynn:
you know, I, I'm going to share a story that is just a little sliver of this, but it shows you how I lived in South Charlotte during this time. You're 20 years ago, or 25 years ago, Jennifer was playing basketball on an AAU team where she was only one of two white players. And I had always walked into Burger King and just gotten service. When I walked in with a team, it was as if we weren't there. There was nobody else there and we couldn't get service. And I looked over at one of the other mothers and I said, What the hell is going on? She goes, Oh, it always happens this way. And I said, but why she goes because we're black. And I said, What? And that's an example. It's a stupid example, in a way, but it's the visibility to me
Vernon:
was not a stupid example. Because that's just a piece of everything else. Yeah, that's just a place where it showed up in your world.
Lynn:
Right. And I had had no awareness of it, because I hadn't swam in those waters. Right, I had always walked in and for some reason, I guess, because I'm a tall, white, white, you know, and no amount of my what I thought was my, my presence that was causing it to happen was going to change anything. which showed me, you know, how frustrating it has to be that you're getting judged on nothing other than the color of your skin? I'm getting judged on it, too. I just don't know how it's happening. Does that make sense? But I'm getting judged on it. I'm getting I'm getting the benefit of the doubt. Judging as opposed to I don't want to wait on them judging.
Vernon:
Right. Oh, and that's a big thing. For words for the benefit of the doubt. And I think that is something that a lot of folks of color don't get is that back in those borderline situations every day and lives are live they don't get the benefit of the doubt.
Lynn:
Right. And that is baked into people's belief systems.
Vernon:
It is it's a belief system.
Lynn:
And I've started catching it in myself and and others that does the silly little language things we do that you don't even realize are making a black person other By saying something like I was talking to somebody the other day, and they said, you know, and he's African American, and he's really smart. Okay.
Vernon:
Right, exactly. And people don't realize that
Lynn:
what is your other assumption that or the other one is?
Vernon:
Wow, you're so well spoken? Oh, okay. Yes. I mean, that does happen. And I think it's just, it's a mindset, and it's baked in. And those are the little things I talked about. I went to, I think I might have told you the story. But I went into a store in South Charlotte to pick up an item. And the lady looked at me and she asked me what I was what I was delivering that day. Like, I was the UPS guy. And I'm a customer. And that person had no idea how she how she hurt me that day. Yeah, her day went along, sailing sailing smoothly, just little, you know, the column j microaggressions. But things that we don't not really aware of that happened.
Lynn:
Right. And, in her mind, she still she even if you told her that she'd still go away, I don't understand. And How could my assumption hurt you?
Vernon:
Yes. Yeah. And that's been a lot of my time, the last 25 years of my life, just looking at those and saying, Okay, first of all, I can't let microaggressions hurt me or hold me back. And then I don't want to overthink something, either. I don't want to think oh, this is because I'm African American.
Lynn:
Right? Well, because I don't want to do honestly, is it?
Vernon:
Because sometimes it honestly, is not?
Lynn:
It honestly, is that or is
Vernon:
that track?
Lynn:
Exactly which but that makes it tough. Because there's, you know, you've got a lot of data points going the other way.
Vernon:
That's why it's important to look at, again, I'm gonna come back to our data at the lower part of the ladder, what data points are we reacting to? And do we need to get more data to make a decision?
Lynn:
And I for some reason, and coming back to Martin Luther King's comment about the content of our character? Because that's what we want to look for is what is somebody's character. Because the other side of this is, everybody can be a bad guy. A white guy can be a bad guy, a Hispanic guy can be a bad guy, a black guy. In other words, they can be doing things their improper character. And we've got to allow everybody to own their own character. Sure. And, you know, there was an assumption I made early on, which somehow was that everybody of a certain, like, small town versus large town, black versus white, they all agreed with each other. No, you're no, just because you're of us. You know, just because you're black doesn't mean everybody that black agrees with each other.
Vernon:
Right? We're not a monolith. Yeah.
Lynn:
But if you actually listen to the media, and if you actually listen extra to a lot of things, it feels like it's a monolith to Well, I
Vernon:
mean, that's the media's job.
Lynn:
And that, well, that's a whole nother story. I want to go down that
Vernon:
we don't want to go down that route.
Lynn:
That's a bad, that's a bad path to go. But the media does do that. And a lot of people consume that, and then allow that to inform them.
Vernon:
Yeah, I just have a quick media story about that. I was coming back from traveling into Charlotte, I don't know where I flew in from. And it was the night that there was some unrest in Charlotte. And about a protest. It was there was a protest about the same things we're talking about here. And if you had looked at any of the news, Fox News or CNN, you would have thought Charlotte was on fire. Yet I drove through Charlotte, from the airport to my home. And I saw nothing. Right. It was three square blocks of downtown Charlotte, where this thing was happening. But if you had looked at the news, and you were across the country and didn't know Charlotte, you would have thought all of Charlotte was engulfed in flames. So they were looking at a tiny piece, which upset but then that affects everyone's opinions, and connects with because we, you know, we we latch on, especially in this day of social media, where you know, back when we were younger, everybody watched basically the same news and gotten the same information. But now we can latch on to the information that we want to hear and we don't have to look at the news we don't want to hear and that's and that further emboldens people's opinions, because they're getting different pieces of information that have been carved out by by different sections of the media. So that's why I say I try to never get any news from Facebook.
Unknown:
Oh my god,
Vernon:
read this article based on like, no doubt, my news.
Lynn:
And the confirmation bias, I think is what that's called, well,
Vernon:
that is called confirmation bias,
Lynn:
we keep getting our bias confirmed. And, you know, you, you know, back to the ladder of inference if you watch, not just the media, but if you watch people who do those videos that are trying to tell you how the world works, no data, they're giving you mainly conclusions. You know, COVID is a lie, that is not data. And but they'll support that with a whole bunch of other conclusions at the top of the ladder without saying, This is how I got there. This is how I put my thinking together.
Vernon:
Which brings us back again, to what data are you reacting to? And how are you sourcing that? in any situation in your life? Right, whether it's having a conversation, whether it's working with a customer in sales, it's up to us to ask the questions. And I think when we get information off of Facebook, or some of the other outlets, for, like you said, or conclusions, we're not asking the deeper question to ourselves, right? We're everything that that ladder of inference, we're just going off of that particular data, but it's incumbent upon us to dig deeper. I liken that to this whole situation about us with COVID being forced into this virtual community. Yeah. Where we now we all have this shared context of having to work from our homes, where most of us who are lucky enough to do that. I'm not talking about the frontline people, hospitals, restaurants, all those folks. People that pick up our trash, they cannot work from home, I get that all the folks that have the jobs where they could work from home were forced into this virtual world, where now we're being invited into people's homes, from a virtual perspective. And if you're a leader, virtually, we can't use the old Gosh, back 40s 50s, even 80s leadership philosophies. Remember the old managing by wandering around?
Lynn:
Oh, gosh, yes, that was actually my favorite way. I mean, I don't know if you remember, but I was very good with the people who worked with us in Charlotte, that were on our floor. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't want it today. You didn't want to be the guy in Chicago or smarter? Yeah, I had to touch my phone, because you might as well not have existed in that time for me.
Vernon:
Yeah. You can't do that doesn't work today. And when I talk, when I talk about virtual, everything in the virtual world has to be intentional. So I have to be intentional about knowing my virtual teammates in Chicago, or Hong Kong, or Amsterdam, or Venice, I had to be intentional about all that. It's I just can't walk down the hallway and see them. And there was some work done. There is a book I've been reading, called, actually, the second it's called the power of virtual distance. And it's by a lady named Karen sub sybilla, Jessica, and it's, I read her first one about this. And then she's added information to it over the last 10 years. And unfortunately, that the second book came out right in the month before the pandemic. And I wish there have been some information added in on that. But one of her when some of our research says for some one to be like a remote or Virtual Employee. It's only I think she said, like 38 yards, something like that. It's not long. So in other words, remember when they put cubes in, like into offices. And if you were, if your cube was so far away in the same room from somebody else's cube, that might be considered virtual, and because people would email it. This is my cube. So it hurt. It actually
Lynn:
worked with Silicon Valley people. I have worked with Silicon Valley, people who email each other and they're in the same room. Yeah, that's what I'm talking. I don't even turn around and say, Hey, what about this?
Vernon:
So leading virtually today really requires building a shared context, understanding someone's culture, understanding the people, so not only getting your team on the same page, but then What relationship do you have with each individual on your team? How much do you know them? If I'm in Charlotte, and someone's in Hong Kong, how much I really know about them. Now, it's become a little bit better because now where people are virtual were invited in people's homes, but can you ask questions? Can you dig into what's that person's life like in Hong Kong? What's the culture there, and then also understanding their interdependencies too, in order to get their job done in this virtual world? Do they have to work through in order to make all this happen? So it's really getting more data. But in order to do that, we have to ask questions and be willing to go into a place where we don't know the answers.
Lynn:
So from for me, as we start to wrap this up, I'm gonna, like, ask you to give me like a little bit of free consulting, because I'm gonna be doing a webinar or zoom call or something about my book here in a couple of weeks. So June 24, at noon, if anybody's listening and is interested, and I really want to engage the people who were on this call, and it's gonna be people I know, it's gonna be people, I don't know. But the people I know are going to have a little bit of an advantage right away, because it's like you and I know each other, it's been, you know, we have a lot of history to draw on. What would be your top three or four tips for me to really make the people on that, on that call feel engaged?
Vernon:
And how many people do you expect?
Lynn:
It could be as it right now, it's a fairly small number, so less than 10 or more than 10? You know, it probably will be in the 10 ish or less range,
Vernon:
okay, those are two, virtually, those are two very different categories. Okay, because I wouldn't a webinar to me is more than 40, people just want to say 40, or 50.
Lynn:
Now, I'm rarely doing that,
Vernon:
where if I open up the color, it's gonna be difficult for people to talk. They're just, I can't get everyone to talk, I can't reach out to everyone got anything less than 20. I can talk to people. I can talk to people. So I would reach out in a webinar, if you have less than especially less than 10. That's, that's, that's more like a virtual meeting. Right, I would be able to use people's names all the time. Linda, share your thoughts on this, Michael, what would you add to what Lynn said, and I would do that in the first minute or so get people to talk initially, because that's telling people on the call that your voice isn't the only voice that's going to be on this call. And you've got to model that in the first few minutes. Now, when you said webinar threw me off, because webinar asset people like I've had webinars where I've had 100 people on there,
Lynn:
yes, that's not the domain I'm typically in. I've been in those on the other side, and have the person do a very good job with it and do a terrible job, too. But no, I'm usually in a smaller world, which is my personality. Yeah. And
Vernon:
are you using slides or anything like that?
Lynn:
I'm might have a slide or two. But I mostly think I did this. So the one I did a couple of weeks ago, the slides were up the whole time. So I actually couldn't see as many of people's faces, I had to get good at like flipping through, because I realized how much I get from watching people's faces.
Vernon:
And that's interesting, too, in the virtual world, because you're not getting everything that because people can put on a false facade or false face where that wouldn't happen if we were if you'd be able to get more of a vibe in person. But I think in a virtual room, especially with a small number reaching out creating discussion and conversation with 10 people or so you can even have them type in the chat box. And I was on a big webinar, too. I would have them type. But I would treat because some people might not speak out. And but they might type something in chat. And then I would take that where they've taken a chat and say if if if Danielle type something in chat, but you hadn't heard a voice all day, I would take that as a liberty to say well, Danielle, I love your your thought here about x wires ad. Can you share? Oh, come on? Can you share a little bit about that with us?
Lynn:
Yeah. Tell me more.
Vernon:
Tell me more about that. Because you don't want to put people on the spot where you're not saying, Danielle, what's the square root of 742. And they're wrong. You want to give them an open question where they can share their opinion or thoughts. Because you don't want to put them on the spot. And people can certainly do that. And people say well, don't ever do that. Don't call people out. But when I look at it from a loving perspective, and I look at it, I'm drawing people into the conversation. I'm not calling them out. I want to bring them in and have them share their thoughts because it makes them much richer environment if we're all talking and not just me.
Lynn:
Well, there's a big difference between so I hear you as saying I'm not calling people out. I'm calling people in. Yeah. And it's like that back to the questions. We talked about how attorneys ask questions that they know the answers to which is really called an interrogation.
Vernon:
Right?
Lynn:
We're not interrogating people. When we ask questions, and that is the spirit by which we do it. The intention that's behind it, I think comes through.
Vernon:
And that's why I said I'm loving them through it because I want them to be part of the conversation. And then I also give them a little bit of context. So I don't say, Danielle, say more about that. I say, Danielle, you've written this thought here. And that makes me think about this, share more. So I give her a little bit of prompting, and a little bit of time to get her thoughts and some framing. So she feels comfortable about coming in and speaking, virtually in the room. So that's part of it. Again, we're coming back, again to this context. Because we've always said, context is big. And I didn't understand back in the late 90s, how big context really was. And now I understand it's in almost everything we do. And that is critical that we have. And I think we're all in the world. I think here's the thing. That week after George Floyd was killed for a moment in time in the US, we had shared context,
Lynn:
boy, didn't we,
Vernon:
and everybody felt at people that, you know, people would say to me, wow, this is horrible. And I would say, Well, why do you care now, because we've been so many other. That's happened. This isn't the first time this has happened. But there was so much shared context. And that is so powerful. And you know, how the world felt in June of last year, the US felt in June of last year around this, it was much more outraged because we had shared context. So always in your room in your webinar, I wouldn't call in your in your workshop, I call it a ledger workshop. Your virtual because webinar makes people think one too big, right?
Lynn:
I've actually been using a virtual, I've actually just been calling it a virtual call,
Vernon:
or virtual conversation, you could be calling it that, to that, that set some tone as well. That's a good idea. zation. Yeah. And that lets people know people are going to be in people are going to be coming in one of the things I do if I have a group larger than 10, even up to 30. I do this dual off indicate I call dual authentication, but I say okay, so if you're clear on this concept that we've just talked about, go ahead and give me a green check or a thumbs up,
Lynn:
okay?
Vernon:
Raise your hand, raise your hand if you have a question about it. So if there is somebody that if I'm on a call of like, 20 people, and there's five people that don't do either the thumbs up, or the hand raise, maybe I've lost them. So I go to them and I say, Hey, hey, Marci. Hey, Michael, are you good, I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page here. Right? And if I do that early, then people go, Wow, Vernon's really plugged in to what everybody's doing. I'm gonna make sure I'm so it's all part of that. pulling people in and making sure they're engaged because when in the virtual world, there's so many distractions. Other end, they want to be engaged. But then there's, there's news feeds, there's emails popping up. They can order something on Amazon while they're
Lynn:
on the call with you, as the buyer is out the window, which is not a problem.
Vernon:
Oh, look a bird. Yes, yes. That's my, my NF e my ENFP Myers Briggs.
Lynn:
That's you and me share almost the same one. I'm NTP. But I'm almost ENFP. Which is definitely look there's a bird.
Vernon:
Yeah. Yeah. Context is king. Really, you know, we could
Lynn:
we could do an entire podcast on just context. And the power I mean, I, I wrote a blog several years ago, called context is everything. And you know it, the more I have looked at it, and that was a story about skiing and turtles. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But the more I look at it, the more I realized, it just truly is everything. It's like that that's the thing that decides how I go up the ladder of inference. And what I see,
Vernon:
yeah, and my goal is in love things I do, whether it's helping people with virtual and engaging people virtually, or helping to improve racial justice in my church community, it's how can I create a shared context? for those folks that maybe aren't connected? Yeah, that so it's really the same thing.
Lynn:
It's ever and it's, and that is our, that is our journey as humans together is how, you know, if you think about the way we've been for 5000 years, not the last 100, we were so much more connected in our groups, and depending on each other, you know, every small community had to have somebody. That's why there's some people, many people named Smith that was their blacksmith, or the person that made their food or grew their food or, you know, made the shoes or made the codes you know, so everybody had a job that kind of connected everybody together. And now we just go use money to get those things. And we can live without ever being connected and having a shared context. So we have to be in touch. About being humans in community again.
Vernon:
And you have to be intentional by including other people. I can't tell you how many events I go to where I'm the only African American, I believe this event in South Charlotte, I believe it. And that so how do you get people to look at their look at their relationships and say, Wow, I need to be more inclusive. But the challenge is, is going to require that they step outside of their bubble. And add, and that's a little uncertain for people. It's a little it's a little scary for folks. And, and and the challenge, Lin, is that Abraham Kennedy wrote this book about about race. And the thing is point in it was there's no sidelines here. Yeah, either you're fighting against racial injustice, or you're or you're a racist. There's a lot so. And some folks will fight against that and say, Well, I, I don't see this, I don't see it happening. And we're saying you're helping the system that is currently you're helping the algorithm that currently exists, because you're benefiting from the algorithm. And you don't see how it hurts others. So all we're asking you to do is delve into that a little bit and take a look and see what the situation is there. And don't just have blinders on. Because sometimes we can all have blind, it just makes it so much easier for us. soccer mom in South Charlotte may never see anything that's going on. But she has so much power.
Lynn:
Right? And, and and where the resistance I think comes up is that dividing line of you're either gonna choose to be aware and be more inclusive, or you're not. And if you're not, that actually is what racism is.
Vernon:
Yes.
Lynn:
And when you're on that side, I think I have been on that side. I'm trying not to be now but I don't, I don't need any way shape or form want that label on me.
Vernon:
And that racist label is so people you know, that is such an inflammatory label that people will I'm not a racist. But let's delve into look at what that is. So are you actively being inclusive in your life, and understanding the context of others? To make a more level playing field? What do you do every day in your life? To activate to do this? And if people say, No, I don't do anything, then you're part of the problem.
Lynn:
And I just want to go on my free ride.
Vernon:
Right?
Lynn:
Ever. How do we avoid that? Okay, this is like almost a whole nother.
Vernon:
Wrapping up. You said?
Lynn:
I'm almost like it? Well, I think I better not really? Well, I think what you've done, let me let me actually because we are at an hour and a half i want to i what i do want to do is I maybe want to leave that as a provocative thought for people rather than us diving into it. Now we may do a round two, I'm 100% open, I think I've done I'm about to do it around two with a different podcast guests on a totally different subject. But let's put a bookmark in that and start thinking about that question if you're willing to go into it, if just just the idea of what is racism? And how do we avoid in flaming people, not because they aren't being racist, but because we want to invite them into the conversation. In other words, what are the barriers we can take down on both? I don't even want to call it both sides. What are the barriers we can take down that are stopping inclusion? That would be an interesting thing for us to that. But I know this, my bladder in my calendar won't allow it today. So but what I do want to wrap by saying this, you have as a request of my audience, it's mostly business people like you and me. A lot of entrepreneurs as well, a lot of athletes actually, as well. But I'd be interested in what you're like, request or you know, thought provoking question would have for them.
Vernon:
When I go back, and I'll mention this, again, it's probably the eighth time I've mentioned it on the call. It's in your book, now the ladder of inference, everything,
Lynn:
by the way,
Vernon:
about the data that we are seeing and experiencing. Is it a small? You know, is it is it a small pool that we're looking at? Or are we enlarging that pool of data that we're going to start to make meaning of and then create action eventually around that. So have you asked the questions? Are you asking questions of others? Or are you making it about yourself? are you digging in to really understand Someone when we talked about position and interest from the Harvard negotiation model? Are you just looking at someone's position that they scream in the streets? Or are you asking and finding out? what's under that? What is their interest? And that's the soft belly of it. It's like the turtle, the hard shell on the outside. Is that is the position, but are you getting to understand them underneath? Because we all have forcefields around us? But are you breaking through that with your questions, but you can only do that if you lose yourself in your questioning?
Lynn:
Which means you're confident enough that you're okay, if your worldview is challenged.
Vernon:
Oh, yes, I mean, that has to be a that's a condition. That's a condition to allow your worldview to be challenged. But and then sit with that, because you know, when people can sit with that doesn't need to change it, just realize there's going to be some dissonance in this conversation. And they're going to butt up against each other, and sit with that uncomfortable feeling. Because it was my grandson has to his four, and he had to wear glasses. And he doesn't wear them. And my wife said you got to put the glasses on. And my grandson said, but gt it hurts when hurts my eyes when I put them on. And she said, That just tells you that they're working.
Lynn:
I remember in fourth grade, getting my glasses, and at first it was like hurt. But I could see clearly.
Vernon:
Yes. And that's what we're talking about. We're talking about as you know, it's working when it when it's uncomfortable. And it's pushing up against your belief system. And that's my request.
Lynn:
So folks, push against your belief systems, try to see something that you haven't seen before, allow it to hurt and allow it to challenge your worldview. That's,
Vernon:
that's a change. I'm allowed to. Yeah. challenge you. Yeah.
Lynn:
challenge you. And that's that's it, that's the only request is to to allow it maybe even enough to challenge you a little bit. So big thanks to everybody for listening to the end of this amazing conversation. And what I'd like to ask for you to do if you felt like this had something to offer, please share it with your friends. And you can also leave me a voicemail, I love getting them if you go to Lynn karns.com and the podcast button. On the right there is a voicemail, and you can click that button and you can record a voicemail directly to me, I listened to every one of them love hearing from you. So with that we'll wrap and see you next time. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
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