#29: Peter Barr Living a Life of Adventure
Sometimes when I’m watching a movie based on real life disasters, like Titanic or The Perfect Storm, I find myself yelling at characters on the screen to STOP. Wait another day! You don’t want the story to end this way! Of course, the people in these stories did not set out expecting the worst. They set out expecting their skills to be up for the challenges that awaited them.
In this podcast, Peter Barr tells of a harrowing adventure he had on a mountain in Nevada last December. In this case, we are not watching a movie. It’s real. The main character in the story is actually taking us through the adventure, so we know it ends up ok. Nonetheless, I found myself listening back to this story with a part of me wanting to tell him to turn back! Peter, wait another day!
There was another part of me that wanted to understand his choices.
When Peter and his wife Allison decided to live a life of adventure from their RV last summer, they chose to test themselves on many fronts. Where it’s common in the modern world for us to avoid trouble and inconvenience, Peter and Allison have recognized that every challenge makes them a little better under pressure.
In our first podcast from last August, Peter talked about his dreams of making the most of his life and putting his love of getting up to high places front and center. I was thrilled to get a chance to hear how it’s going, and I think you will be too. This conversation is filled with lessons on how to use pressure as a catalyst for personal growth and the development of skills.
Peter has captured his love of high places in his recently released book “Exploring North Carolina’s Lookout Towers”. It’s a beautiful book, full of magnificent pictures, compelling stories, and practical hiking information.
I think you are really going to enjoy this conversation.
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Intro:
Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Welcome to the creative spirits unleash Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes your host. For this episode I spoke with Peter bar for the second time. Last August we did our first podcast as he was about to enter into a life of adventure. I have been dying to know how things have been going for he and his wife Allison, since they took off on in their RV to literally as he called it live a life of adventure. Now, who is Peter bar? Well, Peter is a nationally recognized trail builder. He has built several magnificent trails here in western North Carolina. He is also known as a peak bagger, he's climbed to the highest point of every single one of that North Carolina 100 counties. He's climbed the highest peak in 45 different states. He talks about that in this podcast about his desire to reach high points. He loves to get high. And I mean that literally he wants to get up on the highest point wherever he can, which led to him writing the book, exploring North Carolina's lookout towers, which is a beautiful, sort of coffee table book, but really much more than that, as we describe in this podcast. But the thing that surprised me the most is I started by just asking him in his adventures, what kind of death defying things have you done so far? Because I know he's out in the mountains. I know he wants to do things that are exciting, I had no idea that he would tell me the story he did. Which is something that not many people, frankly, would have survived or maybe even attempted in terms of a hike near Las Vegas, last Christmas, or in the last Christmas time. So listen in that story for so many leadership principles, some of which we call out as we are talking that he exhibited, as he's out on a mountain alone in a snowstorm that was unexpected, how he prepared and how he managed his mind is especially interesting to me. So I hope you enjoy this podcast with Peter Barr. If you want to learn more about him, you can go to his website, which is sharing the book at NC lookouts.com. And you can also follow him and his wife in adventures ahead dotnet. Let me know also how you like this podcast, I have a button on the podcast page at Lynn karns.com. On the right on the podcast page, there's a little send a voicemail button. I love to hear from my listeners, if you have thoughts, questions, want to give some feedback to the author or the guests. That is the best way to do it. He is an author and he's a guest. That's the best way to do it. And if you like this podcast or think somebody you know would like it, hit that share button on your podcast app and let them know about it. Peter bar welcome to the podcast. Thank you. I am I wish that everybody that was with that's listening to this could see what I'm seeing. I think you're in your RV. Is
Peter:
that right? That's correct.
Lynn:
So he So Peter is in an RV in an undisclosed or unknown actually not disclosed unknown location in Virginia. Because his wife finished driving in the wee hours of the morning as they were making their way across the country. And that has been Peters last year, his living adventure in an RV with his wife making his way across country. So Peter, I we had we this is our round two we talked what was it a year ago? About Yep, about a year ago. And you and I want to go live a life of nature. And I cannot wait to hear about some of your adventures. But we're out where I want to start is tell me if you have had have you had any death defying adventures yet? And if so, do tell?
Peter:
Well, we've had a lot of adventure so far. And really, really varied. And these are anywhere from some intense, if not occasionally harrowing experiences high up on mountains out west. And also various mishap on the side of the road, whether that be the interstate or out in the middle of nowhere. So we've we've had a whole whole lot of Adventure. And that's exactly what we were hoping for. Nobody hopes for the particularly challenging side of those adventures, the one setting to scare you or frustrate you. But we knew that we would have them and we certainly have. So yeah, we've been at this about probably nine or 10 months now, and have made our way all the way from North Carolina across the country to the west coast and the Pacific Ocean, and made our way back and returned to western North Carolina for just a couple of weeks. In late April, early May, and now we're back at it. So even about a year into this grand adventure, which is a collection and series of adventures. We definitely feel like we're we're just getting started. As far as testifying. There were several instances where myself in particular was climbing some big mountains out in the rocky mountains of Colorado, and then those even further west, like Nevada, probably the the scariest moments that I perhaps feared a little bit for my wife testify, or as I hiked a big mountain outside of Las Vegas, Nevada. Now, while Vegas is in the desert, and most importantly, it would be very, very hot. And when we were there, it was the middle of winter, this was around Christmas time. But nevertheless, it could still get pretty hot during the day. But not very far outside of Las Vegas, there are some really, really big mountains. And my wife Allison and I had visited Las Vegas a couple times in the past and there was a mountain in particular that had eluded me because it was either too hot at that time of year or too cold and snowy. And it seemed like at the time that I would have a window of opportunity to finally climb this mountain. And it's a piece called Mount Charleston or Charleston. A lot of people are familiar with this mountain because there's a pretty popular ski area on its eastern and northern slopes. And so a lot of folks from Las Vegas will travel here to Mount Charleston ski but it wasn't quite in the throes of winter yet. Or at least I didn't think it was but I set out to climb this mountain not expecting to have a particular adventure to write home about audit tell a story about
Lynn:
a no big deal thing like I'm just gonna go climb this mountain so I can bag another peak kind of day.
Peter:
That's That's exactly right. It was a big mountain but far from the largest I've ever climbed. I think it was pi 11,000 foot summit and so not quite there 14,000 foot peaks that I had climbed just a month or two earlier in Colorado and I didn't know that some weather was coming in in the forecast suggested that it was going to rain the next day. And I knew that up high at that elevation could likely turn to snow so I thought I was being responsible and was going to beat the weather and be any snow and I really thought that I was making a okay decision to do this. And so I set out and like you said when it was kind of a no big deal, I will climb up on a trail a couple 1000 feet over the course of several miles to reach this summer's mountain. And I climbed up probably about 2000 feet in a couple miles into the trail and i i started to hit snow on the trail and that wasn't unexpected. I figured there'd be some lingering snow and snow takes a long time to melt at that elevation particularly that time of year heading into winter. And I continued onward and realize the snow is getting deeper and know started to fall and add to the snow that was already on the trail. And eventually I got above treeline so the snow became more intense the When became more intense, and this trail, the mountain kind of has a series of ledges where it's a very rugged mountain. And the trail traverses these wedges and then work their way up to the next ledge and reverses it kind of on these little shelves that are only a handful of feet wide. This might be a little bit unnerving if it was entirely dry and snow free. But the further I went along these ledges that bird with a 45 to 60 degree angle slip of snow, and I found myself suddenly having to take steps across the snow to cross some of the big big snow drifts on these wedges. And it's the danger became more apparent to me the further I went along. And the this is the this is snow that had fallen and then I think kind of melt melted and then maybe other hikers a week or two before had come along and probably packed it down. And then it had snowed on top of it and refrozen so as I'm kicking the steps across the snow, it was less like snow and more like ice. And it became increasingly treacherous to make my way across this snow on these ledges and and I realized that a slip of fall if I couldn't gain traction on these nurse gloves that I wouldn't instantaneously fall off a cliff. But I would slide down and a couple of seconds later I would quite literally fall off of a cliff. And um, this is just realized. And I start to realize the more intense danger as kind of I'm in the middle of that process and realize that a this is maybe not a great idea. All at the same time more and more snow is falling in the wind is getting increasingly intense. There's literally the the weather pattern that I mentioned earlier that I thought I was out in front of a full day had come early, and mountains like that. And that elevations like that the there's not exactly a definitive forecast. But you can always say like, Okay, this is exactly when it's gonna happen. So I realized the forecast that I had seen, it was off a little bit, but just a little bit to make it suddenly quite dangerous for me.
Lynn:
Christmas,
Peter:
as I realized that this was becoming a more and more dangerous situation. I did consider turning back. But frankly, it terrified me so much to go across these very slick slurp snowfields that had a high element of consequence should something go wrong, that I wanted no part of going back across them. In fact, I decided that it was so scary that I was going to hike to the top of that mountain. And there was another trail coming down the mountain a different way. And it should have far less wedges and precarious exposure. And I was going to take that trail instead because I wanted no part in going back the way I had just come. So that was my decision to press onward. And actually, oddly enough, seek out the summit to find a safer way down which I knew should be there. And that's what I did. However, I kept getting higher and higher up on this mountain and above tree line. And it became a completely wiped out situation or with horizontal snow and I couldn't see more than maybe 2030 feet in front of me and was extremely, extremely cold. I had gotten past the really precarious slopes and snowfields where I felt like I was gonna fall off the mountain but suddenly now the remainder of the trail was entirely snow covered and I couldn't tell where I was supposed to go.
Lynn:
So how do you find a trail and a wideout?
Peter:
Right and covered with snow with no footprints or anything like that? It being above treeline though I ultimately just and being above these ledges finally I eventually made a beeline for the summit and just like, like straight up through this. My thought was the sooner I get to the summit, the sooner I can, quote unquote find the other trails down the other way. Well, I think that was good in theory, in practice That proved to not actually be a viable solution to my predicament. I got to the summit. And I was still in a whiteout conditions, everything was covered by snow, I couldn't see the other trail. And I thought, Okay, well, it's fun the trail, the other trail should run along the ridge line. So I am going to follow it. And I've got my GPS with my topographic map on my phone. And I can, I can follow the map almost kind of like a pilot flying by instrument only, right. And that's not okay. And I've done things like this before, I would, I would prefer not to. However, sometimes it can be necessary in really thick vegetation, or especially in our neck of the woods and the southern Appalachians in really thick fog. And that's kind of the equivalent of it. However, I pull out my phone that confirm my maps that I'm going the right way. And within 30 seconds, my my phone went dead. And that was unexpected. I was I was prepared, I had charged up my phone fully and it had 50% battery when it went bad. And when that occurs, that means that it is simply too cold for that phone to operate regardless of the battery level. Right. However, I'm prepared for this particular situation too. And I have a fairly stout battery pack just to recharge my phone or at least provided more energy and warm to get it to turn back on. So okay, I'll do that. First of all, I reach into my pocket for my hand warmer, which is as much for the phone as it is my hand because I know that they want to operate. The hand warmer had fallen out of my pocket somewhere down the mountain crossing the slope. So I couldn't warm not only the phone, but even my hands, which became a bit concerning because the gloves I had, were were sufficient. Up until the point I started having to kind of negotiate through these very six moves. I plug in that battery pack, and the iPhone tells me immediately, water detected in charging port cannot charge Oh, automatic shutdown. At this point, I'm starting to get pretty scared. Because all of this is a little bit of time. It's really cold. The wind is so strong, it's actually blowing me over. I'm having to hunker down in a little bit of a snowbank. And I actually don't know what I'm going to do in that particular situation. Because suddenly falling the other trail off the mountain that I had in mind was no longer going to be a safe option, particularly with no instrument navigation. So right because I definitely wouldn't have visual ability to navigate. And I realized that my only option, not that it was a good one was to go back the way I came, which not only meant going back down through whiteout conditions where I couldn't see that way either. But I was going to have to cross all of those slippery snowfields with high consequence. Again,
Lynn:
those damn ledges absolutely
Peter:
terrified me. And I I starting this big grand adventure with the RV. And as we've been traveling across the country, knowing that I would be in bigger mountains and taking more frequent adventures. Alison talked me into getting a personal locator and emergency beacon device which was like kind of a little handheld device just looks like a cell phone with an antenna on it. But it it has a couple features. One of which is a an FRS that you can press if you're in trouble and you need somebody to come rescue you. And I sat for a minute or two not longer than that because I was getting dangerously cold on top of that mountain seriously contemplating if this was the time that I actually needed to hit that button. And I also knew that if I did nobody exactly could come get me for quite a long while until this storm had passed. So I didn't like my particular odds in that in that scenario either. Instead, I decided that Okay, a couple minutes have gone by, but if I have any reasonable hope of making it off this mountain, I needed to leave as quickly as possible and attempt to follow my footprints in the snow. If there were any left down the way I came, alright. And things seem very, very intense. I Let's say like this. Some people who've heard this story think that maybe I was irresponsible, or that I got myself into a really bad situation. And I don't think I was irresponsible, I did find myself in a bad situation. I was relatively prepared for it, though things were bad I had my phone went dead or had a backup for it. And it failed to had I needed to spend several hours or the night on that mountain that would have been extremely uncomfortable and dangerous. But I did have with me what I needed had, I should I have absolutely had to have done that I had an emergency blanket, I had multiple layers. I know enough skills and have enough experience that I think I could have, literally and figuratively weathered that storm. But nevertheless, despite the danger of it, I realized that my best option was to try to get off that mountain as soon as possible. And as far as visual navigation, try to follow my footprints back. So I left the summit very, very quickly. After everything started going sour. Within a few steps, I realized my footsteps in the snow were already gone.
Lynn:
I suspected that was going to be the case.
Peter:
However, it was still snowing, but it seemed to lighten up a little bit, where instead of being away 20 feet in front of me, I could maybe see 100 feet out, which was just enough to make me feel like I could kind of remember and visually kind of sniff out the terrain of how I would go. And then I knew if I could get back down to the entrance of these legends, then the route itself wouldn't be apparent because there's, there's not a lot of options where to go, you have to follow these wedges. And I was able to do that. But then that brought me to those slopes and there's this literal slippery slope. Again, I did have traction device, I probably needed something more on and of mountaineering gear like boots with with crampons, like they use on Mount Everest, I had what's known as micro spikes. And those are smaller, less robust spikes that that kind of have a rubber strap and you can strap them on to your boots and to a certain degree, they can provide you a lot of traction, I did find myself on one of those slippery slopes, snowfield slipping and not being able to read get traction, and I did whip down about five feet. And in that particular case, I had about 15 Total feet before the result could have been tragic. So I slipped enough to go a third of the way to really, really, really scare me, but made it back across. And once I read through the danger, it's kind of ironic that then the storm clears and it ends up being an absolutely beautiful hike down with a gorgeous sunset. Very, very long slog through the snow back down to the car, because now there was a whole lot of extra snow to go through and ended up finishing getting back to the car 10 o'clock at night, you know, far after I had planned in the dark, just because that return trip took me three or four times longer, so it's going so much slower and having to be so much more careful. So that's, I suppose that may testify.
Lynn:
So that totally counts.
Peter:
Most afraid I've been on this series of adventure, and I certainly didn't want to find myself in that particular situation. But I have reflected a lot on it. And, you know, ultimately, I shouldn't have gone but based on information I had, there wasn't a thing, telling me, you know, major red flags that it would be as dangerous as it proved to be and I think mountain and natural world are like that. And that can happen. And that's the idea of being prepared. Just in case it is like that. And I did have what I needed. And all the tool, both my experience. And the knowledge of having done a lot of adventures in the past helped me keep a level head and make decent decisions to get myself out of that bad situation I found myself in and then physically the tools I had such as the many layers I had as I got colder and by the end of that hike, I had every single layer that I brought on the traction device I had for my boots and the trekking poles and the extra battery for the phone even though it didn't work, but right down to the emergency beacon that I did have a kind of help button. And I didn't use it. But I didn't know the situation was particularly intense because I did think about using it. The other feature of that device that I had was, you can send a text message out by satellite, because I had no cell phone service and the cell phone wasn't working anyway. So I was able to get a satellite text message out to Allison, and let her know that I had made the summit. So somebody knew my exact whereabouts on my particular, right. But also let her know that I was turning around and going back the other way, because the plan I had shared with her was to go up one way and come down. The other all along, even before the situation got intense. So that way, she knew that my, my course had changed, and that she also knew that things were becoming intense, so that if she needed to check back in on me, or if ultimately she needed to call and have somebody go work for me or rescue me, she would, you would know my route. So all of those things made me feel like I while I wish I wouldn't have found myself in that situation, I am proud of how ultimately I handled it. Because at the end of the whole thing, it would have been very easy to freak out at many points. And that's actually where it can get really dangerous. And making really poor decisions that aren't level headed in the heat of or in this case, the lack of heat of the moment
Lynn:
that it's interesting that you went there, because I have two big questions. One of them involves Allison, and I'm going to get to that in a minute. But the the other one is, you know, I made a note of your mental tools, because you went prepared with a lot of physical tools, the blanket, the beacon, the, you know, the backup battery, all of those things, were your physical tools. But as you said, it would have been easy to freak out. And it was your mental tools. I feel like that got you through that. So could you say a little more about what happened? First of all, I often use the language reach for your rules or reach for your tools. And a lot of times in my domain of rules for me is panic when I don't have anything else to do when all else fails, I panic. Well, that's what kills people. That's in the rules. Bucket tools bucket means this is I'm going to figure out how to solve this problem. And you had a big problem to solve. How what how would you describe the mental tools, including your experience, but what within your experience allowed you to think clearly and make good decisions on the way down?
Peter:
Yeah, that's a good question. And I think it is, it comes down to regardless of what the particular situation is, you realize, suddenly you're in, you're immediately in a problem solving scenario, right? So you've got a problem. And it's, it's a big one. So it's assessing. It's a bit of risk management. And it's assessing what what you have and what you don't. And I think my past experiences with adventure have told me have taught me how to manage some of the situations that would essentially be a panic situation. I did feel somewhat panicked as in like, you know, felt my heart racing, and thought, oh, gosh, I'm screwed. I'm screwed. I'm screwed.
Lynn:
So you did go through that thought, but then you stopped it and arrested it?
Peter:
Absolutely, absolutely. It basically was a I really think it's a survival mechanism that you realize that that that panic situation. I mean, honestly, when I got out the emergency beacons, that was my panic situation, right? I hadn't yet gotten to the point. Like, I basically got out the call for help button because I'm in over my head and I'm in trouble here, but I hadn't yet reasoned it out. I let myself calm down. And some past outdoor adventure experiences have, I think taught me how to deal with so many situations and two scenarios is one very early on in my outdoor pursuits. When Alison and I started hiking and adventure. nearly 20 years ago, we would go on these backpacking trips and we would often plan more ambitious routes then were really practical or feasible to complete in a day. However, we needed to get to a certain destination by the end of the day to get our pickups. From When somebody was picking us up to ride home, or to get to a campsite to have water or, or so forth, so we essentially didn't have an option we couldn't just give up, right? We had the
Lynn:
pressure of something.
Peter:
That's right. And so what we had to do was hike in the dark backpack in the dark. And early on in our adventuring, that was certainly a new thing, right? Already adventuring out in the wilderness was one challenge enough for us that was still relatively new that we were wrapping their mind around and getting better and more experienced that. So suddenly, when we had to then do it in the dark, it was very unnerving. And we went through that it seems far less life risking and it because it wasn't nearly as life risking it was generally fine. However, it was terrifying us initially. And we would talk to each other and tell ourselves and I would ultimately over the years as I found myself hiking in the dark, many more times. In fact, those who hike with me and collect pieces of me and go on adventures with me, there's kind of a running joke of oh, if you're going hiking or climbing with theater, you better have a headlamp actually better have two headlamps. And you're probably going to finish in the dark. So it's kind of funny, this ultimately became a thing for me. But the point of this is, when we those early years, when we were freaking out, we had to hike in the dark, we would, we would tell ourselves that there's nothing here in the dark that isn't there during the day. And maybe that's a little bit of wishful thinking. Because, you know, that's generally true, except that a lot of things that are that are, are there in the day. At night, well, now they're awake. So that might be the slight difference.
Lynn:
Yeah, but this is
Peter:
the point remains that we had to coach ourselves and say, you know, okay, look, as far as the situation we find ourselves in, it's terrifying. However, objectively, nothing is really different right now, even though it feels more intense. So that was an experience that we dealt with early on. And then I found myself in many more times. And that ended up being very similar to the situation I found myself in Nevada, and the snow wasn't dark, but I couldn't see and conditions were challenging. But I had to think to myself that, okay, I mean, things are essentially still the same. The trail is still here, somewhere, there is a route that is going to take me back to safety. That's whether, if I can't make it out, it's not going to be here forever. And eventually I'm going to be able to see. So things seem intense, but they're not entirely different, and they're not entirely insurmountable. Another situation would, that is similar to that, that experience taught me to reflect back upon to coach myself to not freak out in those situations is when elephant and I started rock climbing a few years ago, we weren't rock climbers, and we began training with a friend so that we could climb to the top of the Grand Teton out in Wyoming. This was our big project, summer and we trained for many months in advance and climbing rock, even not a rope is absolutely scared ever live in hell out of us. But I had heard a saying of focus on what's there and not what not meaning when you're fine. And everything seems really big and insurmountable. Meaning this exposure and the the 2000 foot drop, feel so overwhelming, that that's what you can easily become fixated on and paralyzed. But I'm not gonna say that I'm very perfect that at not wedding, that paralysis come in when I'm climbing. And then that's where the physical tools come in, like being on a rope, right? Yeah. However, when it's so intense, and feel so big, and so beyond yourself and capabilities, and at least your ability to push forward and keep going. What do you focus on what's there, which is just the rock in front of you, right? Like, kind of ignore all the other big stuff that is just consuming the thoughts in your house? Yeah. Just focusing on what's there. And then the next place you're going to put your hand the next place, you're going to put your feet eventually you work through it. So it's about what what you have to work with, and what what you can do for your situation, versus all these other elements that you can't control such as in my case a few months ago, the snow and the wedges and those were inherent those I had to deal with. But I did have this experience and then additional physical tools to to help me manage those. So
Lynn:
it's it i I've picked up on a couple of language pieces because I'm in the middle of writing another book. And I'm trying to capture this because I've been going through some similar things, not at your level, but of learning how not to reach for my rules and my panic, but my tools when the pressure is high. This is following my horse accident. And one of the things I've realized is I have to arrest and redirect my thoughts. And you talked about how you first I did go through that I thought, I'm screwed, and then I arrested it, I think you actually use that language. Right? It's, you know, where I got that, where I've thought of it was on Young's mountain. So the trail that you helped build, and I was in the middle of trying to write this down. And you've, I'm sure very well know, the place on the rock where there's sort of like, y'all put a rope down where there's like a slope down where you really don't want people walking out on that rock, because it's like, right, you can slip, well, my husband decided in very non hiking shoes to walk on across that rock, and outside the rope. And I'm looking the other way. And I hear this, the slip of whatever was underfoot acorns or whatever, and the gravel, and he had to arrest his fall by grabbing a bush and you know, stopped. And I was sitting there, first of all, I was not happy with him, and I had to arrest and redirect my thought side and kill him right there on the mountain. Because he almost killed himself. Isn't that the irony. But I thought that's kind of what we have to do with our thoughts, like they start slipping before we know it. Like, it's like, in a high pressure situation, it's like your thoughts are like walking on acorns on a rock, they slip. But then you have to find a way to arrest it. And then the other thing you said, and this is huge, is the coach myself not to doubt. Because a lot of times what we're doing instead is you did I didn't ever hear you say that you were beating yourself up, that you were mad at yourself, you might have been mad at yourself for being there. But it did not win the day. Because if you've been beating yourself up the whole time, you probably would still be up there.
Peter:
Right? Right. And to believe in yourself, like I knew that what was in my control that I could get myself off that mountain. Now maybe there were things that were out of my control that may challenge or prevent that. But I felt like what I was in control could improve my situation and get me out of
Lynn:
it. That's huge. That's huge.
Peter:
And that comes from, like I said, those past experiences. And, and also, I think we don't necessarily realize that whether it's in the snow on that mountain or suddenly have slipping off of a cliff on young Mountain is that when that happens, we are actually maybe more prepared for that, then we wouldn't than we think we are based on various life experiences. And, you know, not not formal training, but things that we've picked up throughout our, our life and different experiences, and not even necessarily on a mountain
Lynn:
100% I had a situation, as I've been working through this, you know, working through this, I was walking in with grocery bags and stepped on one of my dogs toys on the wood floor, it was a bone. So again, just like acorns on the mountain, you know, no traction when I stepped on it. And I couldn't, I couldn't see because I had the bags, but I was heading straight for the granite countertop. And if I had not believed in myself, led to arrest my fall, my head was going to hit that granite countertop and right there. I mean, that could be a really bad outcome. But the second it happened, I actually was able to control my fall so that I hit the granite with my arms instead of my head. And I didn't have I think it's because I immediately went into that situation where I'm going to reach for my I call it reaching for my tools, but in this case, solve the problem not beat myself up for stepping on a bone. And just that time that split second of going towards beating yourself up is enough to give you you know to take away reaction time.
Peter:
Yeah, absolutely. And in had you have basically written yourself off and your central your ability to have any control into that outcome, which was still largely out of your control. You're going down, right. I was going yeah. And then for sure you would have ended up in a much worse situation.
Lynn:
So much worse. Interestingly enough. Just Just last week, I was trying. I was over in our barn area at the Pavilion and my dog was after a mouse or something. So I went over to see what was there. And as I was stepping out, I caught my toe on a tarp. And this is concrete floor. And again, not life threatening, but it would have been a really big nice dinner if I had fallen. But in that case again, rather than writing myself off are saying, I'm so dumb or I'm not believing in myself. I believed I could control that fall. And with a couple of very ungraceful but very balanced steps I, I walked out of it, instead of falling and I thought man, even a year ago, that would have been a splat. Yeah, but yeah, but because I kept so present, it's the idea of staying with it rather than going into, you know, oh, pet, a poor pitiful may look at me falling or whatever. So I wanted to call that out. Because, you know, yours was a pretty big life and death situation, by the way. So here's my other question. I got to ask, Where was Allison? And what did she say? Like? How does she handle you being up there by yourself? And these kinds of situations?
Peter:
I would say, very simply put, very well, she handled it very, very well. I think, similar to myself, I think she really trust me and my experience and my ability to make those decisions. And I definitely think that she was worried, of course, when she gets a message that doesn't come from my cell phone, it comes from the emergency beacon, that maybe is a little bit telling of the particular situation that I'm in is perhaps more intense. And I don't know for sure, but I don't believe that she was beyond just somewhat worried. I don't think that she was freaking out or beside herself of like, convinced. I think when you're out of control, when you're just kind of a bystander to a situation like that, that you you're entirely powerless, and then you start assuming the bad outcome. Right. Right. And I don't think that is his her reaction. And again, I think that comes from past experiences. I think she knows and trust that I have been in many challenging experiences, and have dealt with them. I think she also trust my decision making ability. Many people that I've told this story have said, you know, oh, so reckless, or you keep doing stuff like this, and you're eventually going to get killed or something like that. And I really don't see it that way. And I don't think that she does either. And the reason for that is because I am not such a risk taker that I am, you know, at full force adventure, damn the consequences. So I turn around a lot, I back out a lot. We some similar, harrowing experiences, less No, this time more in the desert. I found myself in, in Big Bend National Park elephant fence about a little over a month there in February and early March. And I was climbing a lot of very gnarly, precarious, rocky peaks. Not necessarily the type that you rock climb with a rope, but that you scramble up but are still extremely exposed and have loose rock. And there's quite a high element of danger. And many of these people had really visually fallen in love with I wanted to get to the top. So bad because I've been looking at him for weeks and said, Oh my gosh, this is a beautiful mountain. I would find it very fulfilling to find myself at the summit and then be able to look back at it in future days and years and be able to say hey, I've been up there I have somebody that mountain and I find that very fulfilling in my bag and in hiking. But many of these mountains ultimately terrified me and I on one of them, I got within 80 vertical feet of the summit. Now I had climbed to the 3000 feet up there and 80 vertical feet of the summit. And I felt myself getting overwhelmed. And I realized that I didn't trust myself to have the mental and physical tools. A physical tool will be in the space a rope which I didn't think it would require that when I set out or the mental tools, meaning that I was becoming overwhelmed and that this was the time to pull the plug. And there were there were at least three different mountains in big band that I I backed down off, because they scared me. And I realized that I didn't trust my own decision making anymore. And that I needed them to make the decision to pull the plug. So, back to your question of how Allison react may situations, I think she, she knows that I do that, and I will push and challenge myself. And I, it's a very fine line, I think many adventures, often are struggling to balance this, right, if you don't challenge yourself, if you don't, if you never do something that requires courage that you're afraid of, you'll never grow. However, again, that's a that's a fine line. If you do that, to a degree where it's unsafe. That's when it becomes reckless. So I think she trusts that I have a high consciousness of that lot, because she has seen me back down and, and throw in the towel and abort, even when emotionally it's been really challenging to do. So you get that close to the top of the mountain that you want to get to really badly. And that it's tough, because everything is long hiked back down. And it also is accompanied by the feeling of failure. So because she's seen me do that, and she has seen me overcome other challenges, and do so very consciously and deliberately and ultimately, safely. I think she has a level of trust, that it would it would maybe take another message of things are really bad, I need help for her than to freak out. I do ultimately want to freak out if any of us would, if it
Lynn:
all of us will, at some point above our threat pressure threshold will all go there.
Peter:
And Allison and I have talked about that in the situation. So a lot of times, things don't go to plan. And you do run into these obstacles and challenges that you ultimately have to overcome and take more time. This may not sound particularly responsible, but elfin, I have an understanding that if I don't get back, exactly, when I told her I was going get back. One, she doesn't really start to worry and to she definitely doesn't call for a rescue. In fact, we have a kind of agreed upon very high level of tolerance for things going wrong. And by that, I mean, she probably wouldn't become extremely, extremely, extremely worried or enough to call for help. until really the next morning. I mean, and that's a big window, right? Like, right, something's gone horribly wrong early on in that window, and nobody's coming to get to me. But I think she has seen so many times that I've run into unexpected obstacle, and that I am capable of and experienced enough to overcome those obstacles, people pay a whole lot more time to do so. She's used to me getting home late, and well after when I had indicated I would I would get home.
Lynn:
Yeah, well, and you just you just hit a couple of more really ease, which is you have extra things going wrong. Because things going wrong is what's built your pressure threshold. Yeah, get yourself out of pickles is how you've done that. Yeah,
Peter:
and you know, that's even definitely personally in my outdoor pursuits as professionally as well, all of these trail projects that that you and I have discussed in the past all around like we're in the hickory nut gorge, and rails that you've hiked in, including young mountain trail that you just mentioned. All so many of if not all of those trails, I I found myself along the course of those projects of wondering how the heck it was actually going to, to come to fruition that was on the weed patch Mountain Trail north of Lake or in Buffalo Creek Park. I, I couldn't sleep at night because we had half the trail built and I literally didn't have the next half figured out and there was a major obstacle that I thought could actually kill this project. And we're already halfway through it. That's that's not a good situation to be in. So I suppose I've found myself in those scenarios a lot and all of those play into preparing you more and more for the future. I would also say that I would tell you in the moment that I don't love and adore those situations when I'm on top of that mountain in the snow and I'm gonna pull out my emergency beacon I wonder if I hit the button I'm not loving life and saying like oh this is this is how I want it to be like I don't know if I'm gonna make it but gosh, is this fun? No, no, I hate it like I'm Yeah. I am keeping it together but I am not in a great I would rather be anywhere else. Hiking down that mountain once it cleared up I could see The Last Vegas and all the glittering casinos in the distance. And I still had a long way to go, although through the danger, but I remember being like, I wish I was just down there at a, at a buffet in one of those casinos. And you know, that doesn't necessarily sound my like my cup of tea of what I would prefer to be doing. But that's where I want to be there more than anywhere else right now. Just yeah. And then the same thing professionally with those trail projects. I would rather sleep at night and not stay up into the wee hours of the morning going, thinking to myself, how what a tight spot I'm in and I'm using other people's money to build build out this trail on this great project. And they've trusted me to do so. But I don't know if I can actually get it to the finish line. I kind of hate that in the moment. Right? Yeah. However, all of these things ultimately make it so much more fulfilling. So the experience on the mountain that ended up being a great and a wild adventure. And while there was definitely an element of danger to it, and certainly things could have turned out otherwise. That grew me personally, and I think prepared me for future scenarios, scenarios that I don't hope to find myself in, but could find myself in. At the at the same time, it increased my confidence in that, like, Hey, that was a pretty tight spot I found myself in but you know what I can do it. And if I had just hiked up the mountain and gotten to the top and come back down, you know, that would have been great. And I would have found some fulfillment in that. But I found considerably more fulfillment in how it turned out. Right. And I'm not just talking about because I survived. I'm talking about because I, I felt like I handled it very rationally, and I did exactly what I needed to do for it not to become an overly dangerous situation. So you know, there's the saying that if everything goes to plan, it doesn't make for a very good store. I am a meticulous prepare. And I was in many ways very prepared for that scenario minus the weather forecast. But it did make for a much more exhilarating and fulfilling experience in the long run. And not just in the moment but but going forward. As far as growing these mountains and Big Ben I told you about. I backed down off of several that scared me. Several others feared me. But I I kept going. And I made it to the top. But final ADC on another mountain took me an hour and a half, right, that should take 510 minutes, it took me an hour and a half because I I was constantly managing myself and doing so slowly and always trying to stay within myself within my capability. Because you can while that situation might seem dangerous, as long as you're saying, I feel within yourself and within your right mind to continue onwards, then it is still safe. And ultimately there are situations where I did go on. I feel like very, very much grooming increase my confidence. And I was more proud in those situations. Not that I got to the summit of the mountain, but that it took me an hour and a half to climb the final ADC. Because I said I thought to myself, I did that. I did that responsibly. I did that safely. And I still did the hard thing. But I didn't do it right.
Lynn:
That's another really big key. I think you're writing a Master's course at how to grow yourself right here in this podcast. Because you said I stayed within myself, but you were on your edge as well. As you are with it. You know, I feel like there's this range that we have I call it the froth which it's like it's a little bit of old and a little bit of new, but not so much new that you can't do it.
Peter:
Because that's exactly in the moment. I thought myself like am I uncomfortable right now? Absolutely. Right? Do I feel like I am at the line of my tolerance for for risk and ability to make good decisions? Yes, I feel like I'm close. Do I feel like I'm over that one? No. And it took me an hour and a half to get that final ADC because I would continue to reassess and ask those same questions every couple of feet and had I know for granted, that's where it could have become dangerous. And those mountains I turned around. The answer to those questions were different. It was Yes, I'm on the wrong side of the line to make rational decisions and I need to turn back. also realizing that the first racked up a lot of those mountains. I was thinking to myself, you know, I think I could get up, although it would scare me. But I'm not completely convinced I could get down with the same rational mind. So now is the time to pull the plug.
Lynn:
Right? I think that just the ability to both believe in yourself and trust yourself to know when you're over that line is also what makes it possible for you to be the you know, putting yourself in the adventuring situations, this is at reckless. In fact, I'm sort of sitting here being a little bit jealous because I'm like, now that I've experienced this a little bit, mine's on a rowing shell or on a horse or occasionally in a car driving through the woods, not up on a mountain in the snow. But knowing the feeling of it's not just the feeling of fulfillment, but it is that feeling of growth, and it's a physical sensation as well. So when you feel that, Peter, what do you physically feel? Well, I call what I feel, by the way, just so you know, kind of what I'm talking about. First of all, when I'm relaxed under pressure, I focus on having fluffy toes. And I know that sounds very strange. But what it means is my feet can be relaxed, because when I get scared, they clench, my toes will start clenching. And I can do this in the saddle, or when I'm on a water ski, or when I'm out rowing or even in a conversation. If I catch my toe starting to clench, it's almost like I'm in fight or flight. But if I can relax my toes, so that they feel like they're fluffy, like they could almost flow. That's one piece. And then the other. This is gonna sound crazy, but it's almost like I have a silky you know, I guess it would be my blood because my bloods in there, but it feels like a silky feeling inside of me. When I'm feeling that sense of fulfillment. It's like a flow. So what do you feel when when you've had that sense of fulfillment? After you've gotten off of a mountain? That you can say, I did that, or I made a really good decision to turn around?
Peter:
Yeah, I'm cool. That's a really neat way to describe the physical sensation of it. And I'm not sure I've ever thought about it that deeply. I like that a lot. I think for for me, I'll speak specifically to say the times I turned around, were in the moment or in the wall, where I didn't get to the top of the mountain. I, I felt somewhat crushing failure. Yeah, I've heard that. That is very uncomfortable in itself. And that is a, I'm weighing all the physical effort I put in. And so often the physical effort that still remains right, I'm coming back down with the proverbial tail between my legs non non victorious. And I still have a whole lot effort to put in all for not achieving my particular goal. But I have found, especially recently, in those scenarios that I, I discussed with you, where I did turn around, and a highly fulfilling transformation of failure. Ultimately, feeling like success, like I feel more, at least as satisfied and fulfilled by that failure. As I, as I do, had I succeeded. And that might seem obvious, because it's like, oh, well, you live, you survived. So that's sure that's something to feel success about. But feeling such that crushing defeat is like, Oh, I'm not good enough. Or oh, if I only prepared more, oh, if I was not such a weenie, I could have kept my wits about me and got to the top of that mountain. It feels like I failed. But then back down. And I realized, like, wow, you know, it's actually way harder to accept that failure, and to consciously make that choice to fail, right? You can fail. In that situation, two ways. You can choose to fail and turn around and go back. And there'll be another day where you can maybe succeed again, or you can fail by not saying within yourself and falling off that mountain and getting hurt or getting killed. So but in that exact moment, that that isn't so obvious to me, but when I'm back down, sometimes it's by the time like, maybe I'm halfway down or all the way back and I feel that failure having transformed into the viewing, or maybe it's the next day or I'm reflecting back upon it, and I say, you know, that really wasn't within my capabilities. I hoped for it to be someday, but I made the right decision and wow, that was a hard decision, but I did it. So that has been a really that Failure turning into feeling fulfilled by failure. Nobody likes failure like, and I do believe in using failure to make yourself stronger and to inspire you to, to succeed in the future. But it's been a new experience for me for barriers ultimately feel like success. Because it's actually harder to fail.
Lynn:
It is because you said something critical, which is, I feel the crushing failure because I did not achieve that goal. Right. But you did achieve something. And that's what you've done, as you said, I'm going to transform that failure. And I achieve it, because I'm going to capture that for myself as my learning and actually raise my pressure threshold and my mental tools so that I can go the next day or the next time or read something at another level, which I think it's that cycle, you don't get stuck in this failure. In other words, the failures, the failure, I mean, you had a goal and you didn't achieve it. That's a failure.
Peter:
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I was trying to think about you mentioned, like, what's the physical sensation when you're when you're in that moment, and you talked about your toes, and I often kind of like in the dark, where there's nothing here in the dark that isn't there during the day, when I get into their situations where it feels so intense. And I feel that I'm on the cusp of losing myself losing my my width and my rationality. That's the feeling for, it's almost like, okay, like, I suddenly find myself in the proverbial dark. But you know what, that's just how that intensity is just a feeling right? It's dark right now, say some hiking in the dark versus in the daylight. But nothing is actually different. And when I find myself on the side of the mountain, in that situation, I think that's that's the sensation for me is that, hey, nothing is actually this is intense in the moment, but nothing is different. This mountain is the same. Before I got here, it's going to be the same after I leave, like, down there in the valley, everything's the same, like, there's no nothing. Like, I'm still dealing with the same situation, the only variable is my ability to rationalize my way through it and make decisions. And I can still do that. If I say within myself,
Lynn:
that came, that's the key thing that you keep saying stay within myself, is so huge, because there's something that like, we do lose ourselves when we go into that panic, and we get outside of our skills. And I feel like that's what happened to me when I fell off the horses. I didn't, I had way overconfidence in my skills. And now I can look back on it, and I wasn't even really on a runaway horse, I just was on a runaway mind my mind.
Peter:
Right? That's a great, that's a great way to put it, it is it is a runaway horse, in your mind. And you mentioned before fight or flight. And that's exactly it and fight or flight can be utilized to reference, you know, physically or stay in fight or flight away. But really what it is, is your mind, is your mind going to fly away, right? Like and that's where your mind strong, no longer able to make good decisions, healthy and safe decisions. And even the fight like are you gonna, like press on through it? To me, the thing within myself is like trying not to get even to that precipice of are you going to fight or flight? It's like, let's not run what at that point. And that's, that's hard to manage. But that's where it's like, when I noticed that I'm getting towards that point where it's like, oh, it's gonna fight or flight and yeah, and both, who'd be not a healthy situation, right, like, meaning less rational in either direction. Yep. So it definitely, I think relates to fight or flight
Lynn:
100%. And so you're staying within yourself. And when I have seen I see this in the corporate world a lot is the consequences are very different. But people will keep they'll start a project and realize just like they start you started to hike up a mountain, this isn't going to work. We either our capabilities aren't for it, or the customers aren't going to want it or whatever. But they'll press on to achieve the goal rather than the fear. And I think it takes quite a lot of mental discipline to stay within yourself and yet continue to raise up your skills. Yeah, so that's an Go ahead.
Peter:
I was just gonna say as we're as we're talking about this I, I think there's also a degree of it is good to have some level of tolerance and attempt to control to expand that level of color, it is good to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right? Oh, yes. And in fact, you know, just a situation, I have a couple situations. You know, just yesterday, I was playing with a cousin or a niece, a small child, she's six years old, and somebody at the pool had had taken a ball and was playing with the ball. They didn't know it with her ball. And it's just kind of a ball where she is, is, is freaking out and beside herself, because things are bad, right? Her ball is gone. And oh, no, I'm looking at it. And I'm kind of like, you know, myself intimidated, even by this like group of kids who has the ball, and it's like, oh, gosh, are we going to get this fall back from these 12 kids who are like throwing it super fast. But I looked at her and I said, Hey, look, I'm not worried. Don't worry, until I worry. Because like, you know, a little bit because they're like, yeah, how are we going to get this ball back without making a big team. But, but it's okay. Like, we don't have this, I think very specifically, we don't have this figured out. But we will get it figured out. So that's a silly example. Another example is I have a good friend, who I hike with, and I collect peak with, and I think he struggles a little more with anxiety, in situations where where the going gets a little tough. And this is anywhere from on the side of the mountain to one time we were out, collecting, getting to the top of a few peace out in the middle of nowhere. And we had driven the vehicle there. And by the time we got to where we started our hike, the vehicle was about out of gas. Now that's bad, because we had a long way to go back to civilization. So the whole hike, he's completely just beside himself, and what are we going to do? What are we going to do? What are we going to do? And yeah, I'm telling him, well, we'll worry about that. When it comes time to worry about that. Let's go ahead and get the mountain. We can't really like whether we go and climb up this mountain or not, isn't going to put more gas in the tank. And I said, Yeah, we're in a tight spot. However, you know, think what's the worst case scenario? Okay, say we run out of gas in the middle of nowhere. We're not going to die. Could we end up with a pretty uncomfortable situation with a long walk? Yes. Do I think that's going to happen? Possibly to probably but we'll but we'll work our way through it. And it was kind of the same thing. I didn't maybe use those exact words. Don't start worrying until I worry. Because I have trained myself, I think to have a certain degree of tolerance for being uncomfortable. Up until a certain point, I was uncomfortable. We were going to run out of gas that was uncomfortable to get that ball back. But do I think we were going to figure both of those situations out? Yeah.
Lynn:
Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, because one of the things I'm often working with people on is what I call executive presence, which is a very hard thing to describe. I've gotten clear actually working with horses, because exactly what you're talking about is something we have to do with a horse, who is a fight or flight animal, they will go to fight or flight very quickly. And they look to us if we are connected to them to say is everything going to be okay? You know, sort of we're out on the trail. And just like a couple of weeks ago, we had some deers crash into the horses, they went the opposite way of where they were supposed to go. And I could very clearly feel my horse checking in with me, like, Are we okay? And I was like, you could start worrying when I start worrying. And by then the deer was gone. And, you know, we collected ourselves and went on and nobody got hurt. It could have been a really bad situation. But the horse has checked in with us. And so it's like, we were there later and they look to say Are you okay, are we okay? And I think that's what executives need to do with executive presence. When things start happening like last year with COVID. People were checking in with their leader saying, Well, are we going to be okay, and I think people can read it when you're faking it, don't you?
Peter:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you phrased that really, really well, when that's a good. I didn't think about it that way. But ultimately, it's a I think it's a really important form of leadership. If you I think a leader should have a degree of comfort, comfortable because you're not always going to be comfortable but other people aren't going to be watching and looking to you. And my my niece, I said, Hey, do I work worried yet? She's like, No. And I said, Well, you shouldn't be worried yet. And she was like, fine, right? And I think in that situation when we were about ourselves in a tight spot. I think he was still pretty nervous. But I think he really told himself like, Well, I mean, I'm freaking out. But this guy doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal. And I think that gave him comfort. So I actually didn't think about it in that regard. But I think it might be among many, but one of the most important leadership qualities, and COVID a really great example. Because everybody's kind of wonder like, oh, gosh, what was gonna happen? What are we going to do? Are we going to, are we going to be alright? And having that level of discomfort, I think is is ultimately critical. And what allows a leader to do that.
Lynn:
Yeah. Well, and one of the things that I was thinking about your gas situation, and this was going to be one of my questions, because when I think about those adventures that you've been on, what I have found for myself is I'm also very intolerant of being inconvenienced. So it's, you know, you're not going to die when you're running out of gas, but I'm not being inconvenienced. Like, if I was with you, especially the land that I was several years ago, I think I would have said, Look, we're hiking either way. Let's just go ahead and hiking get gas so that I don't feel so. inconvenienced. Yeah, yeah. As opposed to let's do our hike on the mountain. And then we might have to hike even some more to go get gas. Like, that's a lot of inconvenience, Peter, or, you know, I have a flat tire and I don't get somewhere on time, or, or, or every time I feel inconvenienced. It's sort of like, I think I almost confused. It was survival. Yeah. Go ahead. I want to hear your thoughts on that.
Peter:
Oh, I I completely agree. And you know, I think that's part of it. I think the inconvenience is, is real. But that's, that's the little thing, right? Like, the tolerance for discomfort. So I think in that case, my friend I think would have been probably could have rationalized like, I'm like a really dangerous situation, but his girlfriend and was waiting on him without them back in camp, they're both waiting on us. And if things have not turned out, well, well, that would have been a major inconvenience, right? We would have gotten back many hours away. They'd be angry with us, that sort of thing. But it's, I think it's you know, we're talking about focus on what's there, not what's not. It's also an staying within yourself. It's also about very much related, I think, looking at the bigger picture, right? Yeah, that this situation seems pretty intense. Whether it's on the mountain or the low gas gauge or not having the ball these really intense things like the biggest deal and the biggest thing going on right now.
Lynn:
Exactly. Well, and get back to that, you know, that chat, focusing on what you have, you know, in, in my book, The elegant pivot, that's one of my chapters is focus on what you want. Because a lot of times when we're in conversations with people, we always see is that, Beth and we're missing the part that we do agree with or something. And so I find it's like I call it skiing to the whitespace of the snow as opposed to focusing on the trees. I learned as a snow skier that if I focus on the trees, that's exactly where I'm going to go to the thing I don't want because I don't want to ski into a tree. But if I will focus on where I want to go somehow I magically go there. So that but speaking, I'm not trying to get off on my book because I want to actually mention your book, which I have sitting here. It is magnificent. You've you've seen it so I don't have to show it to you and this is not a visual thing but I've got your your amazing exploring North Carolina's lookout towers book and it's I don't even have words you know, when Peter when I first saw it when I saw you guys when you came to Chimney Rock, a couple of what was it a month and a half ago when I got my copy, which I still don't have autograph. So I may be at graduation with my book and a pen. I I am blown away because I did self publish my book and you've had a publisher mindset paperback. This is not only this is not just a hardback. This is a beautiful magazine, sort of table book. But when I think beautiful magazine table book, I think beautiful photographs, check this has them. I think. I think also, I don't want to use the right. I don't want to say that it's like way, but a magazine table book is usually not that full of content. This book is both full of informative content. And it's beautiful. I don't even know how you pulled it off. But tell me how did you pull that off?
Peter:
Well, thank you and I'm glad to hear that your assessment, particularly because that's exactly what I was going for. So really, for you to say that and me not having like, planted that and Like, already, like lead you into like, Oh, here's what I'm going for. And you say yes. And that's particularly meaningful to me. So the thank you the, the how we did it. And the reason for it is show, this is a historic lookout towers, particularly in Western North Carolina with the book focus on is a topic that I'm extremely passionate about and have endless fascination for. And it's not a super well known topic or subject. But it's, it's one that I like a lot for a whole lot of reasons. And that's because of the fascinating, really interesting human elements to the folks who worked in these towers, the job they did, the service they did for the community, but also the kind of whimsical nature that folks are out there and had the best view in the world, but how lonely they must have been, and what a sacrifice it was to live away from their family and do this job and look out for fires, to protect our natural resources and our homes and property. So I found all of that really, really fascinating. But then I'm also enamored with the views from these towers, they climb up these workouts and get a 360 degree view of this, these mountains in the region that I adore and cherish. So I like this topic for those those reasons and many more, and an eager and passion to share that topic with others. However, this is not the sort of book that makes the New York Times bestseller list. It's a bit of a niche topic. And what that means is that there's really no, there's no money in this book, you don't write this book to, to get rich or to, I'm going to write a book and make some money on you write this book, because you love the topic and you cherish it. And not only do you want to share it with others, but you really want to do that topic, justice. So in many ways, I was writing this book, myself, in a means of I felt compelled to do this really amazing topic, justice, I felt that it was too, regardless if anybody ever bought it. Because if there's no, you know, really no income to be earned significantly off of this book, then I wanted it to be a really amazing product that I would be proud of. And I knew if it was a product I would be proud of, then I think others would really really enjoy it too. So it is extremely rich in in content. And I this is a follow up book I wrote my first book called hiking North Carolina's look at power second 2008. And this isn't a second edition of that book. It is the release of a new book kind of expanding upon that particular topic because this book is 400 pages nearly 400 pages long, and the manuscript itself three to four times in length more than the first book. And that's because since writing the first book contains so much more in depth history and oral interviews and human stories, in addition to the beautiful photography. So I wanted to Dunning Thank you. And that that's a good segue into kind of how this book happened. When I wrote my first book in 2008. i It was a really interesting process and one that was very fulfilling. And I got to first kind of introduce and share this topic of historic workout powers in western North Carolina with talking about the articles I used to write for the Land Conservancy for the newspaper, the stories of the land and human connections to the to the conserve basis. I definitely fall into the category one of those people who I love having written but I hate to write. And I, in this case of this book, I love and adore the topic, and I love researching it. But boy, I really hate writing about it because it's very, very tedious and time consuming and laborious, and particularly when my whole goal is set out to do this topic justice. I'm very much it can be an asset. It can also be a fault, an obstacle, very much a perfectionist. So if I'm setting out to do this topic, justice, I want to make it absolutely perfect and do it justice. So that made the process of producing any book, very maybe less than enjoyable for me. So 2008 I decided or a year or two after the book people said What's your next book going to be? Are you going to write another book? And I said, no, never again, no. Having done that one time, but I don't want to do it again. And that was really the case. 1211 12 years went by, and I didn't write another one. And people would say, oh, you're a good writer. And in the meantime, I felt like I'd probably become a better writer, a better researcher, particularly through my time professionally at considering Carolina. And certainly I'd found out more stories in history related to these towers in the book in the year since. But I still said nope, I've never never do another one don't want to do a second edition, I'm not interested because it is a it's, it can be horrible, right? Staying up all night for months on end writing this and being totally consumed. And I know, I know, you know this. So the reason things changed is because one of my dear friends Kevin Adams, who's the photographer for this book, he and I became friends many years ago and shared a mutual not only for western North Carolina, in the mountains, but we became fast friends, because we had a similar kind of attention for detail and lust for perfection. And what I mean by that is, he's very passionate about many topics. In western North Carolina's outdoors, particularly waterfall he's known as, as the waterfall guy. And to the whole reason we became friends is not just because we were both authors and share the publisher. But I think we took a look at each other's books. And we're like, wow, this person clearly really cares about their topic and are really passionate about and they left no stone unturned. And they they did justice to this topic. And they were an expert in this topic, Kevin, and I really, it kind of gets under our skin when when people write a book about a topic that they're not really well versed in, or not an expert and or haven't really fully explored, like, there's plenty of books about waterfalls out there. And they're just people who like waterfalls, but they haven't spent years and years and years researching and photographing and pursuing those. And Kevin, and I believe, like, if you have a topic, and you kind of that's your one thing like then, well, frankly, you should write a book about it, because you're going to be the one to do the most justice to that subject. So Kevin asked me, he said, Would you ever consider doing another addition to the fire towers book, because it has been a decade for what he has updated. And I think he really liked and respected the first book, but certainly saw both the need and market for an update, but also the ability to do it even better. And I said, No, no, no way. Absolutely not like, nope, not doing it. And then he said, What do you think about if I were to offer to do the photography for this book, free of charge and donate it to you would that Whoa. And I, I think to myself, and I go, Oh, yeah, probably maybe slightly more profane. Because I knew right there in that moment, I could almost like fast forward in my mind and see the whole process play out. Because I knew that was an offer. I couldn't turn down because I love this office, I cherish it. I certainly knew that it could, I learned a lot more and become a better writer have more stories, there were different changes to the powers. That there there could be. There's justification for a new book. But back to that whole thing of, if I'm going to do a book like this, I want it to be something I'm really proud of, and something that I really cherish that I can then share with others. And I knew incorporating Kevin's wonderful photography, it would be that and ultimately circle back exactly what you said when in that it. I knew I could make the content really rich and do justice to that topic. And I knew Kevin can make it really beautiful and get people excited visually about this topic, to then couple that the content. And that's what happened. So that's how the book came to be a Kevin made that offer and I couldn't turn it down. And we worked on it over the next two years. And it was a lot of work. As laborious as the first book was, this one was three or four times as much, but nevertheless, is endlessly fulfilling that, that you describe the book as exactly how I hoped somebody would describe it, because that to me makes it all worthwhile. And that's, that's why I did it.
Lynn:
Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's really three it's a three legged stool because you've got your theme of the lookout towers and what they mean For protection of property, and by virtue of what they had to do, they had to create those great views which as a pink beggar clear passions is how do I, world, you know, at this high vantage point and then, so that's the that's the theme. But then it's filled with stories, which I haven't read them all yet. But I've read enough of them to see, you know, your stories and the stories of others, the stories that you found in the literature of people who've been involved, but just the stories behind the scenes of human connection with those towers, and then you describe the hike, so any of us can go do it. Like, I probably wouldn't there, take this beautiful book out on a hike with me, I'd take a picture with my phone, you know, to go follow your directions on a hike. But you know, it's a very practical guidebook. So it's story. It's, you know, a love of a subject. And it's practical guidance all in one, it's pretty, pretty amazing.
Peter:
Well, thank you for that. And that's also kind of what it was meant to be. 13 years ago, when I wrote the first book, it was a much smaller book. And it was more specifically a hiking guidebook, it had a lot of history stories in there. But back then the market was a little bit different for books. I'm very much glad that books are still around, I like to hold a book in my hand, although so much that we read and consume now is electronic, I think back then people would still buy a hiking book, and put it in their pack and take it out on the trail, and definitely less. So now, everyone has maps and GPS and can access the internet, or even save stuff electronically on their phone, like a written description. So I think for now less by guidebooks to put in their pack and pay hiking, because that can be accomplished with a cell phone. Now instead, I think people are hopefully maybe doubling down on on the content, and in this case is versus the stories and the writing, and the typography, and then also the practical directions. And so that was actually the idea that this wasn't a book that you put in your pack and take it on the trail, but you take you can take pictures, simple pictures of the the hiking descriptions. And what I like to do too, is even take pictures of the historical write up, because I like to read those things when I'm actually in the place where much of the stories actually happen. But in the meantime, it can it can sit on your bedside table on your bookshelf or coffee table and be a really rich piece to help you learn about these amazing and fascinating places. And also plan your next adventure ahead of time. And that's where I think the market is for this book nowadays.
Lynn:
It certainly has gotten me thinking, I you know, I've got some friends. We share them as friends that love to go on different hikes. And I've started looking at it thinking, Okay, we're gonna have to plan, you know, when we go out towards San tiet love, for example, one of the places we love to go stay the we've been to the Joyce Kilmer National Forest, but I think I'm going to have a new way to look at it after reading your book. And there's other places that we haven't been that I want to do like the one that starts at the Fontana dam, which is kind of in that same area. So and that's probably just the beginning cuz I'm, I'm following on trails I've already been on but, you know, I do think we'll sit and plan, you know, sitting sitting over a cup of tea, or a glass of wine where we planning our adventures from your book. And I think that says a lot. And it also means, you know, some books kind of come and go, they're a little bit I hate to use the word flash in the pan, but they don't stay. And I feel like this is going to be a perennial as, as Ryan Holiday calls it a perennial seller. You know, this is kind of timeless. So I hope
Peter:
and, and, and thank you for that assessment to the hope and that kind of goes back to wanting to do this topic justice, right, like so it would be really rich in this content history. And so that it all of this history that occurred in the past. So in a way, it doesn't really age, maybe the conditions of the power change, but those stories are always connected to those places. So I hope that it can be somewhat of a timeless book and coming full circle. My reference to not wanting to do this, do a second book. It kind of came back to being uncomfortable again, right. Like I knew this would make me highly uncomfortable. I knew I put a lot of pressure on myself to to make the best possible product and do justice as a topic. But it was worth doing so and it would it would grow me and it was a way to utilize the increased skills I've obtained over the past 12 years. Since the first book in this, if I become a better writer, well then I can incorporate those skills. If I become a better researcher and I have so much more knowledge of this topic, I can incorporate those. But similar just like went on the side of the mountain or something like that, in the moment of doing it, you hate it, you want to not be doing it. But it, it is a really good healthy thing with a very fulfilling result. But then also grows you in the process.
Lynn:
If we could just be comfortable with being uncomfortable. So so how do people get this book is it tell tell me how to what's the best way for somebody to get a copy of this book. And I don't even know if you have it on Kindle, but forget getting it on Kindle. I'm just gonna tell you right now, this is not a Kindle book. So tell me, I mean, if you're gonna get on Kindle, get get the other one too, because you might want that. But tell me how you go. Thank
Peter:
you for that I had a I had a good friend who's like, I'm going to get the electronic version. I was like really disappointed that he said that. I was just like, I mean, sure, you still get the content and but like, I'm glad you mentioned that because it isn't just saying because I am really proud that it's really beautiful and rich product to hold in your hands and something that those who own it can treasure it. So the best place to get the book exploring North Carolina's workout powers is from my website, which is NC lookout.com. And you can simply order it on nc workout.com. And you can choose between a paperback version or a hardback version. Kevin and I were really thrilled that the publisher decided to do it in both and give readers the option for that. Because again, this is a book that you won't necessarily putting your kids literally go on the coffee table. And so it gave those two options given the really neat ability for it to be yet even more of a beautiful piece. And I think it looks great in either format. And if you buy it from the website, you can get a signed copy, I can find it for you as well as even personalize it. There's an option on there where you can mail me, right, the personalization, if you want to get it for a gift for yourself or for someone like that.
Lynn:
All right, well, I'm just going to tell you people start doing your Christmas shopping now. While he's still agreeing to personalize it. Go to this website and get a personalized Christmas gift. You can be done before the end of July. How nice would that be? Because this is going to especially for the hiker or the photography appreciator in your life, this is going to be something people really want to have. So
Peter:
that's the thing that it's not just a book for for hikers. It can be but like if you just love western North Carolina, and if you love history, and if you love photography, and really pretty pictures of mountains, I really think there's a wide market. A lot of folks would be interested in this book. So thanks for
Lynn:
that. Well, I think I do think they will. And I, I wish that I like I said, I wish everybody could see it, but we'll put a picture of it. We'll put a picture of it with the stuff that we do on this podcast. So you'll be able to see it on the show notes at Lund karns.com/podcast. So I'll make sure that can happen. I'm paying attention to the time We're about an hour and a half. So we're gonna wrap this up. And I feel very fulfilled with the conversation that we were able to have about some of your adventures and yet still wanting to hear. We've barely scratched the surface on the adventures that you've been having. So who knows, we might have to do a round three, Peter while you go collected ventures.
Peter:
But oh, well, I'd be happy to.
Lynn:
Yeah, I'm looking at you know, I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast that I could see Peter and he's got a map of the United States over his right shoulder in his RV, and I can just imagine that you all like plot out your next thing. So where are you going next? Is it or is it a secret?
Peter:
That Oh, well, I'm actually tomorrow flying back to western North Carolina for just a day and looking forward to talking to the lake or classical Academy for the commencement and then flying back to Washington DC, where we'll spend a little bit of time a week or two visiting family and also seeing some sites around Washington DC is a city that often I really liked and visited many times in the past but always always find more new and interesting things to see and do there. But then for the summer, we're headed to the upper Midwest. We're going to spend the summer around the Great Lakes, upper peninsula of Michigan, northern Wisconsin, there's a lot of nice mountains up to Pine Mountain The water really beautiful waterfalls, exciting places that we've never visited. Lake shores like picture rock map. National Lakeshore sweeping do National Lakeshore Apostle Islands National Lakeshore, we're hopeful to go to our Royal National Park, which is a Island National Park and Backpack, backpack across it over the course of four or five days. And it's really wilderness like Park. we reintroduce wolves on the island. And it's intriguing, and the wolves pose no threat to humans in this capacity, but there's something really alluring about being in a wilderness and there's wolves there, and you're there with them on an island, they probably never see them. But it's a really kind of primal wilderness experience that we're looking for. And then ultimately, we'll head to New England for autumn, we really want to see I've been fortunate to travel in New England with a hiking friend of mine, every October for about a week, for going on about a decade now. And so eager to spend the whole season up there in the tree all the pre fall colors and experience it with Allison this time, and we'll be back home in western North Carolina for a couple weeks around Christmas time. Before heading out for yet another leg of the adventure. Definitely feel like we've been at this not quite a year. But we definitely feel like that we're still just getting started, there's still so many more places to see so many more experiences we want to have. We the biggest surprise we've experienced on the road, I think is that despite all of our travels nearly a year worth and some amazing experiences and unbelievable landscapes and scenes of nature, that the more places we go, the more places we realize that we want to see and experience. If we want to have every place we go and proverbially cross it off the list, we find three or four more places or things to do near there. So yeah, we've been at it nearly a year yet our list is maybe three times longer than we started. And that's a
Lynn:
that's a great problem to have. I it's like I joke about around my house that we start a project and then the projects have puppies and then the puppies have pride puppies. So we end up with all these extra projects. And it's like you're having projects that are having I mean, you're having you know, places you want to go that are having puppies. So you know how that happens. Reproduction when you have F for every place you go, you get end up with three that just gets multiplying very fast. You may never leave your RV Peter, you may beat it.
Peter:
Maybe Maybe so.
Lynn:
That's good. Now I have to ask because you talked about the wolves. Have you seen the book of wolves in man Barry Lopez's book of wolves and men.
Peter:
I heard of it in my way familiar with it, but have not read.
Lynn:
Well, I've read it and it's quite good. I really liked the way he writes is sort of a very simple, practical way but I also feel like I know wolves so much differently than I did before I have a different I've always loved them. I've always felt like it's an animal I connect to but I connect to them even deeper after that. So quick book recommendation for Peter and everybody listening so Peter when you're out and about is it possible for people to find you or is the best thing for them to do is just wait for these podcasts? Would you come back into civilization? Are you posting on Twitter or Facebook or internet? Are you doing any socials? Are you guys just really staying off the grid?
Peter:
I'm kind of in between. So we we now have we have a blog that Alison's been composing. But it is it's kind of more a bigger picture right? Like we've been at nearly a year. And it maybe summarizes our adventures like a couple of weeks or even a month at a time or maybe geographically based or experience base. And the blog for that is adventures ahead.net
Lynn:
And is that adventure with an ass or adventure adventure? Okay, dotnet
Peter:
and a lot of folks who, who full time in an RV and and travel the country full time often develop a name for for kind of their their, their setup or their own adventures or, or their full time experience. And so hours is what the website says, we kind of call our collective travel adventures ahead.
Lynn:
Well, and it's funny that you say that because we just talked about all the puppies that your adventures are having. So there are many more adventures ahead for you. And I, for one cannot wait to hear them. So thank you so much for taking the time in your adventures to park in the corner, and probably have to sweat a little bit because he had a fan on him guys when we started and it sounded like it was he was out on a windy mountain. So we turn that off, so y'all didn't have to hear the wind noise. But I know it's probably a little warm in that RV and this heatwave we're having. So I'm gonna let you go get some air conditioning, or some fan, Peter. But for everybody who's listening. If you love this podcast, share it with some friends who are wanting to become leaders. Because if you listen to this podcast, there was a lot of leadership lessons on that mountain story, for example that Peter told us so go to, you can share it with the Share button on your podcast app. And I would love to hear from you as well. On my website at Len current comm slash podcast, there is a voicemail button on the right, it's kind of a funny little place to have it. But if you click on that, you can actually leave me a voicemail, and inform the direction of these future podcasts and give me feedback that I can pass on to guests and so forth. So please do that. And with that, we will see you on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
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