#31 Diane Osgood: Finding Choice in what We Buy and How We Choose to Buy

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Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. For this episode, I am speaking with Diane Osgood. Diane has practical ways to help us help ourselves to help the earth. That's what our conversation was really about. Her real passion is finding choice in what we buy, and how we choose to buy, you know, so that we don't destroy the planet we live on. And I have to say, I don't think about that nearly as much as I will be going forward after this conversation. Our conversation started with her role actually, and working with Richard Branson has been in the news a lot lately, thanks to the Virgin Galactic space flight, she has an interesting take on what makes him want to make spaceflight available for all of us. And we talked a little bit about the contrast between his flight and that of Jeff Bezos. And just where they were, there might be different ways that they're coming at it was very interesting to hear what her take was on that. And we had several things in this conversation. They kind of all revolve around her passion for the planet. The biggest theme I heard was choice. And she has a real interest in showing all of us that we have more choice than we often realize that we have. Another was around animals and sea life. She has a really clear affinity for the mammals of the ocean like dolphins and whales. And she also deeply understands what it takes to get behind the story on where the products that make modern life possible come from, you know, the technical corporate word for that is supply chain. And we talk about supply chain, but it really means you know, if you buy a pair of jeans, where did the cotton come from? Where did the dye come from? How do they get from basically the field to the store gave me it was very enlightening for me to hear how this works. There's a reason Diane knows about these things. Here's what she has to say about herself. Diane Osgood is an authority on sustainable and ethical products. for over 30 years, she's helped companies innovate to manufacture and sell sustainable stuff that better for the planet. She knows the tricks, tips and strategies that can help shoppers align the contents of their shopping basket with what matters most to them. So you can read the rest of her bio on my website. If you want to know more. You can certainly find her she tells us in the website, how to find her at Diane osgood.com. And we'll have all those links in the show notes. I really hope you enjoy this conversation and would love to hear about it even from your voice. There is a voicemail button on my website. We'd love to hear from you there. And if you enjoy this podcast, by all means, share it with your friends or others that you think might be interested in hearing it. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Diane Osgood. Diane, welcome to the podcast.

Diane: 3:14

I'm thrilled to be here.

Lynn: 3:15

I'm so glad you are. So I reread your bio, probably for the third or fourth time this morning. And something really stood out for me this time and I think it's because of space travel. Richard Branson, so Richard Branson appears in your bio. Tell me about that. How did you come to know him? What did you do with him?

Diane: 3:39

I spent five years working for the organization that he runs called Virgin management limited, which is the business that runs the brands of the Virgin Empire, the virgin portfolio of companies, everything from Virgin Atlantic airline to the gorgeous virgin hotels here in the US. They're expanding also internationally, to a couple of smaller companies, people that may not be aware of like Virgin wines at Virgin pulse, and the beautiful properties one can rent. Virgin limited editions, which include his home on Necker and spectacular places in Morocco and Kenya and South Africa. And big businesses, he there was a bank involved itself and taken over by other banks, but it's kept the brand Virgin Money in the UK and in South Africa. So a big portfolio of companies and I was hired to help the well help Richard six assists substantially bring in and operationalize the values that he holds dear. So environmental conservation, climate mitigation, and having companies really understand their sense of purpose. So I did that for five years and it was three Through the brand as opposed to working for any of the individual companies. Right. So and then I also did, I also did wonderful special projects with with him that helped in two cases really helped marine conservation and the welfare of our citation relatives which are dolphins, whales and purposes. cetacean? Yeah, that's the category of those three species.

Lynn: 5:27

Oh, like, Okay, I didn't know that. It's a big word. A word. It's a big word. So you, you worked? Did you ever get to meet him?

Diane: 5:37

Oh, yeah, I've worked with him on a couple of projects quite closely. So I'm assuming

Lynn: 5:43

he's a great guy to work with, because you just said something that really perked me up, which is that he has a passion for conservation, which he's also a billionaire. And I kind of think we don't think those two go together. And hit

Diane: 5:55

case they are one of the same. He's deeply, truly passionate about the environment, particularly the marine environment. And as galactic, you know, in his in, everyone knows about his dream to go to outer space, which he's now accomplished, be beautifully accomplished with the entire team at Virgin Galactic. His interest in conservation, as I said, it's largely Marine, but it's also wildlife conservation. And I, I'm very excited to see what he does now that he's had this experience of seeing the earth, seeing the blue planet from a distance

Lynn: 6:35

from a distance. Yeah, thanks that struck me while that was going on, which was about a month ago, it was in July of 2021, that he and Jeff Bezos were both doing their thing with very different approaches, both in sort of look of the rockets and the method. But also, I felt a difference in the look and feel of how they talked about it completely. And I'm curious what your take on it mine from a very long distance, I've never met him. I've never met Jeff Bezos, I buy a bunch of stuff from Jeff Bezos. I'm an Amazon customer, because you almost have to be these days. But But Branson struck me as being sincerely interested in the achievement for the sake of the achievement sake. In other words, I want to go to space, I'm not in a race. Well, the

Diane: 7:27

purpose Yeah, the purpose of Virgin Galactic is to enable more people to experience space. And to really inspire kids to dream big, and kids to really understand that they can do amazing things. And as more people experience, the blue planet from a distance that hopefully will take better care of it as well. So it's deeply embedded in Virgin Galactic in the ethos of the company. You know, it's been a couple of years since I've worked with them. And it doesn't look like a thing. It's changed since then. So I, you know, I'm obviously not speaking for them. I'm not speaking on their behalf. But it's very, the the, the DNA of Virgin Galactic is built or is based on taking care of the planet. And it it seems frivolous. And I think some of the initial questions that Richard got, were all about, well, how can you justify this? And I think those are valid questions. Given it, you know, certainly where we are right now with with big, big, big, big challenges on climate change. And today, a rather devastating report came out that we are in, in deep, deep problems with with climate change more than we had understood even a few years ago. And yet, if all goes to plan, what Virgin Galactic can do is really inspire a lot of kids to get into science and to appreciate this earth in a way that Richard was lucky enough to have had the chutzpah and the absolute audacity to create that path for himself. Which, and I can't see I don't know if he is us, but certainly what struck me and listening to him. I would say 80% of everything he said was self reflecting was about self reflection. How this makes me feel what this has done for me. Were everything Richard said was this is to you young kids be inspired dream big. And I just think the actual language used by the two, if played side by side would tell the story of how different the two men are and how different the DNA of their different businesses are.

Lynn: 9:49

Well, that the business side felt to me like it was it was from Bezos it was more like I want to be first in space like I was first and online retail and that it was almost more like a business opportunity as much as he enjoyed it. But it was for him. Like you said, that's there's that's a different you pointed out a dichotomy I had picked out, actually. But Branson I believed what he was saying. You know, isn't the guy lined up? This is a Cintiq guy. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think as humans, when somebody says something, but we think they mean something else, we lose trust. And especially in today's environment, and the media and so forth. We're always kind of running it through the filter of what what's in it for them, and why are they really doing this? And can I trust them? Is this good information?

Diane: 10:43

Well, I think a lot of it is that Richard is is the iconic rebel right? He's he's the guy that came out of nowhere not with an academic record created Virgin Records. And and use that to literally fuel Virgin Atlantic when he was told he couldn't, you know, that no one would be able to run a commercial airline the way he succeeded. And he's maintained that rebel spirit because it's, it's so deep in who he is. And he shares that authentically. And I think we tap into that. He's a it's not, it's not about beating the system. It's just being true to who you are. And in his case, it's being a rebel. So I think we tap into as an audience, we tap in both to the rebel spirit, if that applies to the to the audience member, but also that it's just truly who he is. He's a really fun loving guy. And that comes across, you always seem to media.

Lynn: 11:43

Yeah, okay. And I think those

Diane: 11:45

two things because that's who he is, those are the two quantity qualities that we tap into. And basis, what we tap into is a really smart business guy, which by the way, Richard is as well.

Lynn: 11:58

He's a little record label and turn it into what he started into. It's pretty amazing.

Diane: 12:02

And many, many, many other businesses as well. He's brilliant, and has amazing instincts in business as obviously, but Jeff Bezos does, but but the you know, the hero's journey of the two individuals are so different. Richard is one about rebellion. And Bezos is one about conquering straight on. That's my interpretation.

Lynn: 12:25

Well, and I heard him interviewed, he was using a fancy term about I don't want to have regrets. It was sort of like the regret minimization complex or something like that. That is why he went and did what he did with Amazon. Which I think there's something to that for everybody. I think, a lot of times we do have a fear to do something that would really be great. And so better to say yes, and fail than to say no, and wonder what would have happened completely. But I wonder, there's there just felt like a purpose, sort of a sort of, maybe its end with the Climate Change report coming out? Today, I have this on my mind. Where does I'm going to put money in modern life in the same bucket fit compared to conservation and purpose on the planet? What's that? Like? How do we rock back and forth between those two things? And what do we have to sacrifice in order to not destroy this planet? Because that's really what you've been about. Right? Yeah, that's,

Diane: 13:30

that's the bulk of my work. And that driving force through through my adult life has been around those questions. And the first thing I want to say is, it's not about sacrifice. It's about choice, sacrifices of perception. But choices where we take power. And it's how we choose to use our resources, all of them, including money, but also time, and the natural environment, and our intellect, and our cultural riches and diversity. How do we deploy all of our resources to ensure a well steward planet and a well steward society? Around the globe?

Lynn: 14:14

So So I want to talk through a silly little case, study about sacrifice, because I think changing this perception is going to be huge in your mission. I saw some and we're gonna go right back to Bezos. I didn't know we were going here. But here we are. I saw a friend on Facebook post a picture of a screw that he needed for a project that he try. He said, I tried, I really tried. And then he described his driving to maybe three different hardware stores. Okay, that's in a car with emissions and hours that he spent trying to find this particular screw which wasn't that uncommon, evidently, but before he finally had to throw his hands up and order it from Amazon So I think about the amount of resources it took just to get something for his project. And, you know, I think he was trying to I'm going to use the word sacrifice, sacrifice his convenience for the sake of helping the local retailer. And, you know, not have to have something shipped because there's a ton of energy spent in shipping something, but to take his own car and go get it, the resources there, too. But I think at the end of the time, he probably sacrificed in his language, a lot of his own time trying to do the right thing. Yeah, a lot of what we how do we see sacrifice in that context?

Diane: 15:38

There, to me the the resource, the main resources time, because if under flexible schedule, a local hardware shop could have ordered it, but it might have taken more time. And it also depends on what type of local hardware shop, you know, if it's a big box, or if it's a still small run small family owned business. And that gets back to the long term implications of our individual choices. So if I choose to go to my local hardware shop, just as this fellow did, and continue to give them business, then they're probably going to stay around, and I can form a relationship with them. So the next time I need a particular screw, they'll be able to order it for me. Now, the ordering process might take a little longer than ordering it on Amazon. And that's where that time trade off, that happens. We become so accustomed to overnight delivery, or 48 hour maximum delivery, that our own sense of time has become what we're not willing to trade away. So we're not willing to wait. And so that's, that's the trade choice there is around time.

Lynn: 17:00

Yeah. And I'm gonna, you know, talk about sometimes how I think about my time, because it is the one non renewable resource I have. Exactly. And I try very hard not to put $1 value on my time. But I almost always will put a how many days left value on my time. And it's that it's that idea that I'm, you know, 60, about to be 63. And, you know, I just use 80 as a as a bogey number to say, okay, that's theirs. I live in a place where we've got a lot of 90 year olds that are living still really good, healthy lives. But, you know, 80 is kind of when they start not being able to do the things I do every day. So it's like, Man, I'm over over three fourths of the way through. So I put I put that bogey on my time. And I it's not about you know, what I'm buying nearly as much as it's about what I'm spending my time doing or wasting my time doing. It is very hard to get me to do something I don't want to do now as my husband. But But how do you help somebody that thinks like I do? Say, Yeah, but it's still worth it for you to wait for those screws or whatever else you need to buy?

Diane: 18:19

It's, well, what's the what are the consequences of waiting for a couple more days? Okay, you're putting off a project, but that's not causing you to not pursue your other activities or your other dreams or your other set of activities that fulfill your purpose? I think it's really just stepping aside and say, Could I wait a couple more days to finish? You know, whatever project it is? And sometimes the answer's no, you know, sometimes it really is urgent, if it's, you know, getting ready for a big storm, or, you know, there's some emergency like that. Yeah. But the, you know, I noticed that things I think I need urgently, I, quite easily could wait another day or two. Right? You know, I always I always compare when I've decided I really need to read a book. I could go to the library. If they don't have it, then it could be a week wait for them to find it in another library. Or it could have been 24 hours on Amazon. And what I've noticed is it doesn't matter if I didn't wait another

Lynn: 19:23

week. Yeah, most of the time I buy them and they sit on my counter anyway waiting for me to get to them.

Diane: 19:29

Bingo. And I think we've what happens in our brain when we go shopping, including buying the screw or ordering the book online, is that we get a dopamine rush. And that's why and the faster we make our decision, the more we're in that dopamine rush because the dopamine rush doesn't last that long. And our body wants us to get the purchase done before the body The dopamine rush dies. Because then what happens is you lose interest and you go away. That's why retail spaces are designed to make sure you purchase things as quickly as possible and keep your attention at the checkout counter. Because if you're trying to buy, you know, whatever, a pair of shoes, and you actually walked around for half an hour, you probably lose interest in them. Because the dopamine rushes, because the dopamine rush has has bottomed out. Often that sense. Yeah, and that sense of, of that high we get is extenuated, even more, when there's a sale on, because it just triggers those things in our brain. So it makes us happier and happier. But then we crash out. And that's why buyer's remorse exists. So I think at this continuum of time, this conversation we're having around, you know, waiting to buy the book or waiting a couple of days to get the exact screw, I think that our brain chemistry is not working in favor of longer term solutions. It's a part of the way we're wired. And it's coming to terms with that, and it's learning how to work with our own brains. So what I've, you know, I've long installed the idea if I think I really want to wait 24 hours. And if I still really want it, okay, but if I don't, it's okay. Right, because I can't overcome, I can't stop that brain rash. But I have learned to mitigate it by forcing myself to wait.

Lynn: 21:34

What's interesting, I have, I've been working with a horse trainer for the last several years who talks about this exact cycle. As it relates to our goals in life, and especially around training horses. Because what his perception is, is oftentimes we are using the horse or other things like shopping, as he says, to take something that is less and use it to enrich ourselves. This is Bruce Anderson of natural human ship. And he says what what the marketers have learned to do is substitute actual achievement, I've solved a difficult problem, I've been able to make a connection with a horse, I've been able to do something I couldn't do and get that dopamine rush. That question of the dopamine rush is something I've been working with, with Bruce Anderson, who is a horse trainer that works with me and does natural course, human ship. And, you know, his theory is that the marketers have learned how to use that dopamine rush. to substitute for the natural rush we would get when we solve a difficult problem, make a connection with a horse, do something, he calls it, you know, taking something that is less than using it to enrich yourself, rather than taking something that is less and helping it become better. So many companies do that where they are taking advantage of our dopamine rush to get us to buy things so they can make more money. Instead of allowing us to have the natural response we get, which is I've just done something really, really cool. I just got off my waterski. And I need to understand the difference between the endorphin rush and the dopamine rush, whichever one it was I got a natural rush of something good. Because I skied really well this morning. And that's very different than you know the feeling it's more fulfilling to me than the feeling of buying the new hiking boots I bought last week, although those hiking boots are going to take me some great places in the woods. So anyway, what when you think about teaching people to shop better? Do we need to educate people on how their own human wiring is helping them be manipulated, to make people rich? Is that Is that how well do we do it?

Diane: 23:59

I think it's the approach I take is helping people realize that they have that they hold the power that the demand side, in the economy, it's based on demand and supply, right. So if if there's no demand for something, then it's not going to sell and eventually will no longer be made or the company will refine it or change it for reformulated or whatever repackage it until there is demand for it. And therefore, it's important to realize that we as as shoppers every time we open our wallet, we're the ones in control here because we're creating the demand. We're choosing to buy something and that sends a very clear signal. So for me, the first step is helping folks understand where we hold the cards in in that relationship. It's not the other way around, that we have the power to say yes and to say no. And also with that power. comes the responsibility of being sure that we like the signals that we're sending to the marketplace.

Lynn: 25:09

That seems like a bigger climb to me that than almost anything is having people realize that they are sending signals to the marketplace, because it's the convenient convenience is such a big deal. Sure, no, I mean, we've really, like I wrote a blog last week, it was called The Joy of convenience. I think it was the joy of conveniences or not, and it was just about how much I like electricity and hot water. But most of human history, we haven't even had electricity. Like for the large predominance of history. And yet, it's a convenience right now that we literally, like, things shut down completely when there's no electricity, except for in the villages where there still isn't never has been.

Diane: 25:56

Yeah, no. Yeah, exactly. And that's why when you look at the graphs of does money make you happier, money doesn't make you happier, after a certain baseline income. You know, under certain baseline income, more money will definitely make you happier, because it provides some of the basics that are required to have a more fulfilled life. So you're not spending x hours a day looking for water, and have issues with light at night for reading. And it's in children's education, because you don't have electricity. But above that level, that economic that that economic threshold level, you know, consistently study after study in countries around the world, more money doesn't make you happier. Other factors do. In there's there, there's a whole area of research started by Professor Lord. His name just ran out of my head, but the economics of happiness. Yeah. can think of as first name anyway, the economics of happiness, it's fascinating area of research. And that shows consistently and dataset after dataset. Money doesn't make you happy. But here are things that do. And again, it's helping folks understand that we hold the the power, and how we choose to what we choose to do with our money. And again, that's it's it's mostly, you know, it's after paying the bills, right? So after paying the electricity, and utilities and the rent or the mortgage, any, you know, outstanding debt, educational debt, whatever. It's the discretionary spend, that's where I start,

Lynn: 27:57

what does what is it that makes people happy? What are those other factors?

Diane: 28:03

Well, it depends on who you ask. There's a whole line of philosophy and, and theology and different doctrines, I think it comes down to knowing your purpose and taking steps on a regular basis to fulfill your purpose, helping others having compassion, and being in alignment with what you truly hold to be important. And that's the, that's the area of happiness that I'm interested in. Because we know that when we act in alignment with what we really value, we we have coherence. Sometimes some people call it heart coherence, we're really aligned with our hearts. And when we act in a way that's aligned with our hearts and experienced coherence, it does create happiness. And that's the quality that I experience when I make a good purchase. When I make a purchase, that I know the folks who made it, were well treated, well paid and have a path to improve their lives should they choose to take it so they have a choice. I know that the pack the the product was packaged and sold in a way that minimizes environmental impact and environmental destruction. And that the people I dealt with, were kind of compassionate, when I make that kind of purchase that's aligned with everything I want in the world. And then I that that reinforces my sense of who I am and what I believe in.

Lynn: 29:46

You know, I thinking about just the packaging question is pretty measurable. Is it like one of those horrid plastic packages that we get that we can't get open and I hate those things? You know, you have to get scissors or not for half the time I cut myself trying to get into them. So you can kind of see from packaging, and you know, what they put on the label and stuff like that, that they meet your values. But how do you know about kindness and compassion? And like the other stuff like that? That's not as measurable? How do you know? Or do you just have to trust it?

Diane: 30:21

I think it's kind of goes back to our earlier conversation about Richard Branson, it's, it's having taken the time to do a little bit of research, you know, but a first indicator is, you know, if you're buying it actually from somebody, if it's, you're in a retail space, you know, how is that person to deal with, because if they're well treated, and they're happy in their work environment, that's a good sign. That's just a real light indicator. It's not when to place a huge amount of weight on, but we do subconsciously placed a lot of weight on that

Lynn: 30:50

reading, we are reading for, you know, the other word I heard when you said heart coherence is I also think about congruence, which is saying, and doing things that line up. And I've learned again, this in my horse work. And I think this is very big in the corporate world. We're constantly reading to see if what you say is actually what you do and what you mean. Yeah, and we can exactly feel it when people aren't in alignment with that,

Diane: 31:17

completely, completely. And so my work is about bringing that sense of alignment into your shopping basket. Okay, as you know, is in making small steps, not not trying to do not trying to make everything, all purchases change, you know, overnight, but taking two small steps a month.

Lynn: 31:36

You know, what's funny is I was just listening to really like navall Raava. Khan. He knows he founded. It's an A, he's known as an angel investor. And I think his firm is called Angel, something or other. He's a very brilliant guy, very practical, hard to get him on an interview. He had he there's several podcasts out there that have interviewed him, but not that many. He's a deep thinker. And he was saying that he no longer believes in macro economics, even though I think he he actually studied economics in college. And he's made just I don't even know, he's one of the early investors and things like Twitter and things like that. So he's, he's got some money. But he said, I don't believe in macro anymore. I only believe in micro. And he said, Don't go try to change the world. Just change what you do. Exactly. He said, everything happens. It's just exactly what you just said. Everything happens with the small steps that we make.

Diane: 32:32

Absolutely, absolutely. And that's why I'm focused on the individual's actions of what we put in our shopping basket. And what we take home.

Lynn: 32:40

Yeah. And, and something there's a theme running under everything you've been saying, which is the idea of choice. Yeah. So where does that come from? For you? Do you have any stories where you feel like you did not have choice and you had to fight to get choice? Or how did choice become something that is so front and center for you?

Diane: 33:02

Choice in terms of shopping or choice in terms of

Lynn: 33:04

in terms of why it matters to you so much?

Diane: 33:08

Well, it goes back to as a child I was this is a bit of a longer story. But as a child, I was really fascinated in the origins of, of humankind, like how did we evolve as a species and the 1972 cover of the National Geographic with Jane Goodall in the cover an article in which in which she announced either we have to change the definition of what it means to be human or any include chimpanzees, because at that time, using tools was part of the definition and she proved the chimpanzees use tools. That was a landmark moment in my young, very at that point, very young life. And that was nine and I carry that interest into my 20s and spent time with her then colleague vertical togas, who was one of the three primatologist Louis Leakey set up and bruta Gothic as studying orangutangs and Kalimantan.

Lynn: 34:10

Can you say that name slower? I can't sorry.

Diane: 34:12

baru to a girl because she's an American primatologist of Lithuanian background, ah, and she was one of the three so Richard Leakey for set up Jane Goodall to study chimpanzees. Next, the late Dian Fossey with the the guerrillas in mahogany windy and third birthday Gaul Dicus with the Ranga tanks and she settled in Kalimantan, tenga which is Central Kalimantan on the Indonesian side.

Lynn: 34:49

You're saying some really intense words very well. So

Diane: 34:53

those are just put Yeah, names of places. So this I spent a couple of of long big Volunteering for birdie. In Helena Montana Tiger is I went out essentially to help track while during attacks, which is no easy feat. But realize particularly on the second visit, that I was, which was longer that I was fascinated by the logging going on. And I realized that if we wanted to protect the orangutangs, the biggest threat was the deforestation going, that was happening around the National Park. And some illegal logging as well in the park. And I just observed and watched as I watched the logs float by in the in the river. And it suddenly I suddenly realized that if there was no demand for tropical timber, these guys would do something else. They weren't doing it because they love cutting down trees, believe me, it's incredibly difficult work and very dangerous. And it's just huge amount of effort to cut one of these huge trees down and get it to the river and float it down to two other villages. So they they have they bring the logs together and then take them down to the big cities to the sawmills. You know, they would do something else if they could, if there were options, but certainly they would find something else if there wasn't demand for the timber. And it just suddenly a light flashes like ah, if there was no demand, this problem would look very different. And that idea stuck with me for a very long time. And I think it was very simplistic in my thinking, especially about alternatives to livelihoods and and things like that. But that basic notion of supply and demand really clicked in. And I did go back and I did my PhD driven by that quest to understand a little bit more about how development occurs and the role of economics in that. And the value of those trees specifically. So I did my PhD, but it was around back to your question around choice is I've suddenly saw it in very stark terms. If we you know, if we the global we again, very naive hypothesis. But if we stopped all demand, if we stopped purchasing anything with tropical timber, then the chain of a chain reaction would be they would stop cutting it because they couldn't sell it. And so that's where it clicked. Again, very, very naive view. But fundamentally, that still holds. So if I don't like the idea, well, if I am appalled by the fact that children mine mica, and a couple of countries that is sold to cosmetic companies, Mike is the stuff that makes things shiny, it goes into lots of things. But cosmetics are a big, a big use of it. If I don't like the fact that children are in abusive labor situations, possibly dangerous ones, most likely underpaid, and certainly not getting the education they should have. Then why am I buying makeup with shiny bits on it? Unless I really know where that mica came from. I have a choice. You know, buying lipstick or eyeshadow or blush or something that's got shiny bits in it or not buying it isn't a decision that's going to really change the quality of my life. Externally, but internally, it will because I'll have that that internal cohesion coherence that we were talking about before. And if enough folks pay decisions like that, then the cosmetic industry would actually have to take this quite seriously. There are great options to there are, there are many companies that that now you can look up and they clearly state ethically mined minerals. And there's many who don't, it's just really easy to make that choice. And it's not one that I think is that that serious?

Lynn: 39:22

Well, definitely not about me. Of course I don't wear makeup. So I don't I don't get to have an opinion on whether we should be shining or not. Because I don't worry. But but I'm what I'm thinking about. I'm going back to the trees actually because I was you know, I've been thinking a lot about unintended consequences because I think our climate situation is really the product of a lot of unintended consequences. Nobody said 100 years ago, hey, when we're mining oil and we develop the gas powered engine that has emissions, that we're going to get where we are where was not somebody going we're gonna do it even though we know it's terrible. It's mostly unintended consequences but on the on the tropical trees, chances are they're going to build houses or other kind of shelter, which is a little lower on Maslow's food, you know, on the pyramid or on the need that might make up. So, is there unintended consequences if you starve the people cutting the tropical trees? And then they go move to something else? Like how do we absolutely,

Diane: 40:27

yeah, no, no, absolutely. And these are these become quite complex issues. And I think that those that level of concern is warranted, and probably a little bit more than what your average shopper needs to take on. Okay. But, and that's why and that's exactly why Yeah, exactly. That's why companies often work in large consortium to ensure that it's not just the wood cutters, the timber cutters in this case, but entire communities are taken care of in the programs. So for example, better cocoa and better sugar. These are big groupings. They ensure that not only are the direct individuals involved by by employment are taken care of, but the communities are. So it's an A really important tenet of fair trade. So if you allow me just to make a quick comment here about that. So fair trade is a process by which it ensures that the people who made or produced your cocoa, coffee, sweater, paper, whatever, received fair wages, and equally importantly, that extra funding was provided to the community and the community decides what to do with that funding. So fairtrade coffee coffee, for example, ensures that the producers have have a baseline amount that they will they will earn per pound for their coffee or per kilo for their coffee. So there's kind of an insurance policy. But what's more, equally important is that they're also funded at the bid at cooperative or the community level, they get some funding that they decide what to do with. So they can decide what community development, maybe they pay it off in cash bonuses, maybe they build a school, maybe they build a health clinic, it's up to them more clearly. Exactly. And I think that's really an important part of why Fairtrade products are so powerful, is that it's not just the individual labor who benefits. It's the collective, it's the community. And it gets back down to what you were talking about, with what choices do people have in some pretty hideous situations of deep poverty? No real opportunities for education, or advanced education? And what what can one do? And I think that's, that's why fair trade is such an important option for us as shoppers. And the amazing thing is, you know, more and more apparel companies are picking it up, and they're picking it up because consumers want it.

Lynn: 43:41

Yeah. Well, we've kind of become a throwaway society around clothes, for example.

Diane: 43:46

So it's one of the major waste producers on the planet is the apparel industry.

Lynn: 43:51

It's actually absolutely unreal. So salad Tell me a little bit about your work with companies because before you started kind of working on the consumer side, like you are now you were really a pioneer and working with companies to be a fair trade type of company and just say a little bit about

Diane: 44:11

sure said I still work with I still work with companies for for a very long time. I help companies with their sustainability strategy. And I like to say that I helped them create value based on their values. So I help companies understand what their purpose is, and look at business models so that they can become they can become more maintain good providers for their shareholders and their employees and members of their community and do it in a way that is sustainable for the environment and for all the employees and their workers involved. So I look at supply chains, I look at energy consumption, I help companies set sustainability targets and goals for, for example, emission reduction goals, water usage, reduction goals, waste reduction goals, help them set these goals and then develop the strategies so that can they can implement them and make them operational?

Lynn: 45:18

And is this at the highest? You know, corporations are very hierarchical? Are they? Is it at the top of the organization that this stuff gets? decided on to do? Are you working at the higher levels? Or what's the Yeah, in who's who's owning these projects inside an organization?

Diane: 45:39

Quite frequently now, it's driven by the CEO or board member. They then delegate down to the folks who have to make it real.

Lynn: 45:50

Yeah, they're not doing the actual work, which they never are. But they have

Diane: 45:53

well, that's not their job. Yeah, their job is oversight direction. And, and that's a real change. You know, I spent the first 25 years I think, or more than that, trying to convince companies it's a way to make more, how to create more value. So larger profits, but happier employees, you know, all the reasons why eco efficiency, more resilience in your supply chains, better relationships, and your supply chains, all these reasons why to do the work. That's not the conversation anymore with companies. The conversation now with companies is how they understand that that's what investors want. That's what employees want. That's what more and more consumers want. So the question now with companies is the how. And that's true for consumer facing companies. And it's also true for for businesses that operate business to business. Yeah. And it's a very different conversation. And I think it's changed rapidly in the last couple of years.

Lynn: 47:02

What do you think's behind that?

Diane: 47:06

It's a lot of things. Yeah, it's a company that has well run, upper into well run tends to outperform for its shareholders. And a strong sustainability practice, it's well run, I think is an indicator of a well run company. So there's been a correlation between a good sustainability program and high performance is been made, you know, those stocks tend to outperform. So that there's enough data now that shows that I also think that the situation with climate change and the growing awareness of its severity, and the leadership of some big companies has perked the interest. And so more and more companies understand that they need to set goals and get going on this than ever before. That's driven by the threat of legal and regulatory changes, and what their customers want as well. And some mix of they just don't know, it's the right thing to do, as citizens on this planet. So it's

Lynn: 48:28

usually because it's got to go to some kind of value, they have to see the value of it.

Diane: 48:33

Yes, and the value is, is multiple multi fold, it's to shareholders, it's to employees. And again, there's so much data that those entering the workforce now, as well as millennials and Gen X very much want employees who have a purpose and are taking including taking environmental impact seriously. So more and more, it's become an issue for happy long term employees.

Lynn: 49:05

While I'm and that's starting to widen the lens for value, where, you know, when I was when I was in banking, and I really trained this actually is with weak basically only had one value, which is the profit margin. It was it was tied completely to money, you know, you had to put $1 value on everything, to measure any kind of outcome. And, you know, as I've grown, in my own sort of leadership practice, and in my own humanity, I've come to realize that's a byproduct, not a, a worthy goal. But that's been a pretty big shift for me and I'm thinking about in your work, how do you find people making that shift so that they can have a wider lens about what is value and what, how important is it to have employees that are happy and to have a sustainable supply chain that is at destroying the earth, and, you know, having a sense of purpose, how do you widen that lens for people? Or do you just,

Diane: 50:10

I think I think first of all, you know, no one really wakes up in the morning and says, gee, I really want to make sure that I've got slaves working deep down in my supply chain, or Ge, I really want to make sure that I use overuse energy and use the dirtiest form of energy possible. I know. It's not it's not the people want to do these things, I believe, I believe in the good intention. And I've experienced that it's more understanding that they can make these changes, they have the choice. And they can do it now in a way that actually will excel their company's bottom line, as well as the general well being of everyone involved. It's understanding that the different factors that go into running a good business.

Lynn: 51:06

And as it gets more and more complicated, or complex, I think as you start having to take into more, if you can just look at it from a money standpoint, it's fairly simple. Yeah,

Diane: 51:17

we'll see. I'll just take supply chains. I mean, yeah, they are extremely complex. And the first task is really to map a company's supply chain, beyond its first. So to use jargon, its first tier, so who they directly buy from, is what we call tier one. But Tier one is often buying components or parts from at least a multi fold of other companies who are also buying. So if you just take, you know, a pair of jeans, you know, the cotton was grown in one country, it was probably milled somewhere else, died somewhere else. Stitched cut somewhere else, stitch somewhere else. The zippers came from one country and the buttons from another, and the buttons, and the stitching, the stitching, and particularly if there's any kind of fancy applique, or anything like that, was probably subcontracted. And mapping this all out is extremely complex. It sounds easy, and it's just not and one large apparel companies just finally putting their their, their maps out in public because they they've been able to get to tier two. Only to tier two. It's one of the first it's the first company that I know of, it's gone public with their maps. It's very, very complicated.

Lynn: 52:40

How many tears? Would you be looking at with blue jeans? Is it?

Diane: 52:44

Oh, well, I think you have to go all the way back to who's drawing the cotton. And if you're looking at labor abuse, you need to go back that far. And where the cotton is grown is where the environmental impact is going to be its largest. So for that specific product, the actual raw material has a huge part of it footprint, the total footprint. So it's how the cotton's grown, what were the chemicals used? How much water? What was the labor situation? And then bring it all the way back up to? How was it transported? How was it milled? You know, the whole story. And if you think about how much water is involved in making jeans, and the washing of the fabric, and the working with the dyes, you know, and then you get the fancy jeans that are pre faded, so to speak, how much more chemicals and washing as required to make that under what circumstances were they were those? Were those factory workers? Were they exposed to toxic chemicals were they do they do they receive health benefits? I mean, all those types of questions, so it becomes very complex. And when these industries were developed, it was much simpler and straightforward. But as we have a push for more efficiency and lower costs, then supply chains became much more complex,

Lynn: 54:06

while especially lower costs and labor because I was involved a lot with some offshoring that involve let's go get, you know, instead of a $25 an hour person, let's get a $2 an hour person in another country. Yeah, exactly. And there was a lot of Wake Up Calls that said, Oh, wait, but we didn't factor in all the other costs that go with doing that. And maybe it wasn't such a great idea if you actually look at the whole thing because we were so focused on just this one piece. And the risk that goes with that as well. Yeah, so yeah, but I'm sitting here thinking okay, and then we can go on Amazon and get a pair of jeans for $20 Most of the time, they're more expensive, but you could get it for 20 and how the heck could they have done all that stuff grow the cotton dye the cotton, you know, weave the fabric. even go to the point of occasionally getting them to where they come pre rip I saw this in the store the other day, the holes were already in the knees.

Diane: 55:07

My My dream is when someone goes into a large retailer picks up a pair of jeans or alarm clock or whatever, and puts it down because it's too inexpensive. So therefore Something bad must have happened. It's making that's my dream is that, that we've realized that they realize that the low price is actually a problem.

Lynn: 55:33

It's a real problem. Yeah. Wow. So have you

Diane: 55:37

get what you pay for? You know, it's a really simple adage. But it's very profound. You get what you pay for. If we're going to pay for low cost production and everything, then we will get the labor abuse and the environmental destruction that comes with that approach to production. It's our choice. It's our choice. And yeah, I think our choice comes with, yeah, I've got to learn up on some of these things. You know, it's not obvious when you go into the grocery store, much less. You know, someone who's got their children with them, and they're trying to make the grocery run really quick. I understand all of that. That's why I say make two changes a month. And if that works really well, sure, throw in a third change that month. But take it easy when you start your changes, but start retraining your brain in your patterns. We're so habitual when we shop, we know where we go. We know what we buy, we know which you know which aisle which height of the aisle to grab for we probably do with a close eyes close when we go to buy coffee. Right? So it's retraining our brains to shift three or four product lines down and maybe go down a shelf to buy the fairtrade coffee. It's there. We just got to look for it and make the decision.

Lynn: 56:53

Yeah, it's not at eye level. Now I have a question about. So this has been on my mind a lot lately, because I just passed a Tesla on my way home to record this podcast. Electric cars are getting a lot of press. But everything is running on batteries, everything, our phones, everything. Battery technology is really on my mind. Because I'm not an expert, but I understand that we have to go dig the minerals to make the batteries from somewhere. And, you know, I keep thinking I look I'm when I'm driving down the road, and I see a couple of electric cars to the 1000s of regular cars. And I think about Alright, how many batteries? Is it going to take to shift us over to a more sustainable way? What happens to that supply chain? And what kind of things is it creating to create that kind of technology? And is it even feasible?

Diane: 57:47

I'm not an expert on electric cars. Do you know a fair amount about mining and particularly again, human rights abuses in mining, and some of those rare earths that are required in our electronics? And it's not just cars? It's an all of our electronics? Yeah,

Lynn: 58:03

I'm sitting here with a phone you're at. We're on a computer, we probably I have an iPad phone. And I've got batteries all around me right now.

Diane: 58:09

Exactly. And so again, it's it's it's working with companies and ensuring that companies know, we want to make sure that they're adhering to programs and approaches in their minerals in buying the components that go into electronics, that have good practices on where they buy their minerals, how they were mined. So again, it's one of these really complex supply chain issues. You know, Apple computers, buys more components than the entire auto industry together. So let that sink in. And right now, the business model is hardware makes the software redundant. So you We're upgrading our phones or computers and things like that. One way I think we're going to come out of this is software is going to make hardware upgrades redundant. So we'll be able to upgrade the software's and pay for that as opposed to, you know, getting another model of a phone or a laptop or headsets or microphone or whatever. Sending me so there's so there's exactly. And again, using less of the of the of the rare and precious metals that are that are required to make these electronics. That's a step forward.

Lynn: 59:34

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you remember in the 70s, where they said we were going to run out of oil. And we had the gas lines. And you know, there were people whose whole job it was to figure out how much oil is left. How much longer do we have? What are we going to do when we run out of oil and that was the real big threat back then it wasn't the emissions as much as it was there's just not going to be enough oil because the Earth can only handle so much. And when we've used it all up, we got to find something else. It strikes me that the rare earth minerals could be the same way. Yeah, that we could get so desperate that we would do really egregious things like we've done with coal and copper and other things to get to? Well, they're

Diane: 1:00:14

second, unlike fossil fuels, they're secondary, what we call secondary mining, which is going back to the use of electronics and mining the minerals out of them. And that's been going on now for years. And so instead of all of electronics going to landfill, they're first taken somewhere else. And those minerals are stripped out of them, as it's possible to design electronics, to make it easier to do secondary mining on them after use.

Lynn: 1:00:48

Yeah, that's one that's one solution. But I guess my brain is just still, I don't have any idea. And I just wonder if anybody does. How much is it going to take? How are we going to get it? Who owns it? I know that China has a fair bit of

Diane: 1:01:05

China has the rare earth as but there are a couple of other countries that have small deposits.

Lynn: 1:01:09

Yeah. But they have a lot of it. And so what if China says y'all are all depending on us, you know? So I just think about business back to that unintended consequences. How do we help people see what the right thing to do is now and, you know, is it is where we're heading feasible, feasible? Or do we end up with a dead end that says, You better look at something else, too?

Diane: 1:01:37

The first thing to do is not to get decision paralysis and do nothing. That's the worst. Right? So it's making decisions based on your current level of information. And I learned this the hard way. I mean, I would I would summarize the 90s as as environmentalist, and particularly a sustainability, corporate sustainability, lead in the 90s. I think we shot ourselves in the foot because we just were never happy with how green we were. And it was the search for perfection that just killed a lot of progress. And I don't want to see that happening on the on the demand side on consumers. It's some improvement. progress, not perfection is got to be the motto. Oh, for sure. And, and letting companies know that you care that you're concerned is a huge step forward. They'll listen, I mean, that's the beauty of social media as well.

Lynn: 1:02:37

So that's an interesting question. How do you let companies know you care, besides the almighty dollar? And once you choose to buy and not buy? Because that's a rearview mirror thing? But how do you lay them?

Diane: 1:02:48

It? No, I actually disagree. I think choosing what you purchase is your first line. Okay? Because it is the thing you have control over. It's the most attached to you. It puts you in coherence. If you do it. It makes you feel good, which is really important. The next thing is tell somebody about it. Right? Explain to your family, explain to your neighbors explain to your cousin, why I chose to purchase this, why did I choose to purchase this hemp shirt from a specific company? Right, I chose it because hemp is a good environmental. It's a crop that's less onerous for the environment than cotton. The company I bought it from, I trust their labor standards, and their environmental practice, particularly on packaging. That's why I buy it, share the third thing because then they will make different decisions. Yeah, or they will consider different decisions. And that sources sends a signal. The third thing is if you know, if you're on social media, shout out, you know, hashtag the name of the company and say what you got to say Believe me someone will listen. And and that can start conversations internally. Yeah, so this is I mean, just just to go back to an example from working with Richard Branson. Virgin Atlantic has a company that that it's called Virgin holidays, but it's on by Virgin Atlantic. That is packaged vacations for people packaged holidays. And the number one complaint they got from from happy or otherwise happy customers is that when they went somewhere, they saw situations around animal abuse. They weren't well, situations in which animals were involved in the entertainment and they were uncomfortable. And this particularly was around SeaWorld and captured at And captive dolphins, and captive orcas. This culminated now about seven, eight years ago with animal rights movements becoming involved, but it started with customer complaints. But we don't like seeing, you know, we loved going to Orlando and going to these places, but, you know, it's just isn't right, that they're captive dolphins doing these backflips for us, you know, we don't like it. So, the company was very sensitive to how can they influence the shows that their customers go to when they buy, you know, their packaged holiday is this is like two or three, four or five chains down the out of you know, they, they have some they have no control and extremely little influence. And so what happened was animal rights picked up this issue. And, and wisely chose Richard as and Virgin as a target because of Richard stance on ocean conservation. And what we did is we got ahead of it. And we called, we called together a convening, which I lead with amazing facilitator. And we brought together animal rights activists who are specialized in this area of citation some of the leading aquaria in the in, in the country, in in the US and in Canada. And representatives of swim with dolphin programs, SeaWorld and other such, you know, entertainment to use my language, not theirs, that have captive dolphins, and we parse up in many people in the room had never met. They were wretched enemies. I mean, one person at the table had literally mortgaged their house to sue another person at the table. We were talking deep animosity, not just philosophy. And we worked it through over the course of two days with beautiful facilitation, a deep art form. And at the end, we all could agree on some basic principles. We went back to version Hall, we took that back to Richard and said, We these, we want these to be the Virgin, we wrote what we call the Virgin pledge. And we said, if, if any, if we sell your tickets to your, your entertainment, show your swim with the dolphins show SeaWorld, you need to sign this pledge that you will no longer take captive, you will no longer use dolphins that have been captured from the wild, that left the door open for them to be able to use. Dolphins had been bred in captivity. But it was the first step. And now we look back and we see how strong how much the industry has changed as a result. And so that again, I just want to spin that all the way back to it was the customers in the UK, sending the little note to Virgin holiday saying, No, we just we just aren't comfortable. We don't really like you know that. And did it solve all of the customer complaints? No, because there are, you know, elephant tours and India and, and Malaysia and tigers being shown elsewhere, you know, but that's, you know, we took one step together and created a huge ripple effect in the industry, that I think within the course of 10 or 15 years, we're really change how people everywhere interact with captive citation and the long term outlook of captive citation. We're now not virgin, but actually Virgin has supported the efforts to figure out what a sanctuary would look like for dolphins that have been in captivity, how can they kind of have a halfway house, so to speak, between having human support which they're dependent on and swimming wild? So we're evolving, how we perceive and experience these majestic animals that have been used for us as entertainment for decades. And again, it started with customers saying, I don't really like this just one let you know. And, and Virgin being smart enough to figure out how to get ahead of it, and make changes by bringing everybody together that we could all agree on. It was it's it's one of my you know it during my time with working for for Virgin is one of the things I'm most proud of.

Lynn: 1:09:45

It sounds like you need that facilitator to be wherever we have some of these other things that

Diane: 1:09:50

she's the first person I call when there's a trouble

Lynn: 1:09:53

because you're right facilitation is a is an absolute art and to be able to bring people of different minds together. We need a lot more of that these days. And, you know, the question I get that came to me I, I want to go back and rewatch it. But I watched the my octupus teacher this summer. Have you seen it? Yeah. It's a stunning depiction of just how much the ocean creatures, you know, I never thought of an octopus as having any kind of awareness. I did eventually. But when I saw that movie, it just took it to an a completely different level.

Diane: 1:10:34

Yeah, no, it's it's been. I, you know, if even two months prior to that experience, somebody asked me what, you know, what I become involved with citation and become, you know, almost an expert on the opportunities and the the the complexities of, of dolphins and tourism, I would have said, No, it's just something I've never come across. But I learned so much and have been just an utter awe of, of underwater mammals that just extraordinary beings.

Lynn: 1:11:07

There's no question. I mean, we, you know, I've read, I've read some science fiction, where somebody had figured out how to translate two ways, the dolphins language and you realize just how very smart they are. But you don't have to have a translator to realize see how smart they are. Yeah. And, you know, wanting to exploit and use them because they're so darn smart. And entertained.

Diane: 1:11:28

And, yeah, and we, you know, we got to work with some phenomenal scientists like Diana Reese, who helped figure out dolphins do see see themselves and recognize ourselves in the mirrors. Yeah, and watch dolphins basically. Play Play with

Lynn: 1:11:45

a week we did this. And actually, I was the same as you are, as the folks we went to, we were NACA poco. This was 10 years ago, and we got a chance to swim with the dolphins. And you go into this room where there's a window into the aquarium where they are. And every you could tell that every time new people come in, they are coming in to check you out. Like they come in, put their face in the window. And of course, they they have a perpetual smile, so you can't tell if they're dreading or not dreading, you know, or whatever. And that was, was absolute blast, actually, to swim with them. But when it was done, it was kind of like God, I hate that they have to be stuck in here. Exactly. Doing this all day long, you know, for our entertainment. But I, the thing that struck me the most was how they came and checked us out. Then a lie up against the window. Like I'm going to see who's coming now.

Diane: 1:12:41

Yeah, they're incredibly smart. And I look forward to the day where we don't we no longer have such majestic animals captured for our entertainment. Yeah, I do have mixed views on on zoos. I think that's something I'm still wrestling with the role of zoos in our society, but good zoos, so to speak. Yes, educational opportunities, because they're very, very powerful. I know somebody, veterinarians and environmentalists who say their life was impacted when they got to go to an aquarium and see see the see the marine life. So Right?

Lynn: 1:13:19

Well, it's, you know, the whole idea of what does it take to get us connected back to nature for me is huge. On mystic waters for several years, we had a group called Renfree ranch bring children from the cities of Philadelphia who didn't have a chance to be in nature much and run free Ranch was a way to get them reconnected to nature. They were scared to death of it a lot of times, I mean, really scared of just the night sounds, the snakes, the bears the whole thing. What What was interesting and important, though, was if they did not understand the value of the forest and of the animals and of the natural wilderness, then you don't have a conscious about destroying it.

Diane: 1:14:06

Exactly. And again, that goes back to the beginning of our conversation, you know, imagine being able to see the Earth from from from space and to see the blue planet that it is. And that's that such an important part is that we have perspective on it, because we can see it from a different place from a different perspective than in our day in our day out life.

Lynn: 1:14:29

And, you know, the Earth has a way of reclaiming things both on a micro and a macro scale, you know, just the, the act of decomposition is a pretty amazing act in and of itself. And, you know, I I look at places where we've had buildings or where we let buildings go and watching Nature Climate back is so fascinating, because even in a mere 20 years a building That looks like it would be there forever is, for all intents and purposes gone. And you think about the 1000s of years on the earth, how many cycles? There have been something bill, I've taken away?

Diane: 1:15:12

Yeah, I agree with you. And there's what's unseen, which is the leaching into the soils into the waterways of toxins, which happens when things are, you know, so I, I don't want to romanticize too much, you know, letting nature take over buildings, because what we don't see what happens is any of the leaching of the materials of metals or paints or lead, you know, they end up then being leached into the earth and into the waters. That happens as well. And that's the big issue with landfill. Even if we had enough space. Yeah, for all the trash and all the waste that we produce, there's so much leached into our waterways and into our soils,

Lynn: 1:15:52

which essentially is just something we've moved from one place to the other, because there is no way they're everything came from there. That's the thing that blows me away away. This was actually one of my early understandings as a child to look around at cars. And, you know, before computers, calculators, and all those kinds of things to say, somewhere on the planet, somebody went and got things out of the earth, rearrange them and turned them into this thing. Exactly sound like it's flying in from outer space, everything somewhere came from the earth oil came from the earth, you know, oil and gas, and classics, and yeah, all of it, all of it comes from here, and then we rearrange it. And then somehow, when you add the human factor, if we're not careful, and all too often, we aren't careful, we poison the earth or ourselves with it, even though it was there all along.

Diane: 1:16:42

Yeah. And it's the the combination and putting things where they don't belong, you know, fossil fuels are fine, but not in water. You know, we don't want to, we don't want to put lead in our water stream. Right? We don't want to put you know, arsenic is a natural occurring material. We don't want it in our food.

Lynn: 1:17:05

No. Yeah, actually, just the basic idea of organic food, you know, if you don't understand how to use composting, and manure, and so forth, you can get yourself in a world of hurt real fast, just growing your food wrong. Yeah. So it's an interesting, it's, it's so much complexity, there's so little we know, and I love the way you've taken it down to sort of the microcosm of it. So tell the listeners a little bit about how to find you and how I'm sure if they've listened this far, they've gotten the message of what you're trying to say, but how you are getting the word out about your mission to everybody.

Diane: 1:17:52

So my, my request is, is or my, yeah, I like request, my request is, think about five categories and choose one that really matters to you. Because trying to take on everything is just going to drive you crazy. And you'll end up with decision paralysis, you know, back to the scenario of well, if we stop deforestation, then we're gonna happen to the poor guys cutting the temperature test. So I divided things into five categories, your health, so removing toxicity from from your household, and from you know, what you put on your skin? The conditions of labor, so workers, workers, conditions, workers, wages, basically, the environment. So everything we talked about climate change, and plastics and deforestation and things like that. Community and diversity. So do you shop locally do you do make an effort to buy products and, and frequent shops that are owned by women owned by minorities, and then fifth, charity, so many companies often donate to companies donate to all sorts of things, both locally. And nationally, it'd be at the arts or medical research, but also, you know, we just had a river cleanup here in our community in the local coffee shop gave coffee, and that's really a nice community building, you know, and we appreciate that. So that so that that category of charity is actually quite important as well. It's more about behavior and citizenship of the company. But those are the five categories. And so it's figuring out which one of those really matters to you most. And sticking with that for a little while, and making some choices. And so I'm, there's lots of apps you can use to find, you know, listing of products. If you really care about fair labor. You look at fair trade, look at equal exchange. There's all sorts of variations of ways of ensuring Companies pay a fair, fair labor to their, to their workers to all the workers involved in making the product. If it's environment, there's things looking for, you know, beyond recycling and recyclability. You know, can you reuse the materials can you do closed loop production? What's the end of life for the product? How do you get rid of it? Those are all things to consider. So, choose one thing, come up with a couple of changes to deploy and do that and making these small changes shouldn't be onerous. You know, I often say I often recommend if you really don't want unfair child labor or slavery, then make a choice this month to buy fairtrade coffee Fairtrade tea Fairtrade for chocolate, just start there

Lynn: 1:21:01

next month chocolate Life Essentials,

Diane: 1:21:03

exactly. coffee tea and chocolate sugar if you're really into it, you know just start with the start with the commodities where and bananas where there's big issues. And then next month, look at apparel you know, if somebody in your family needs you know, an item of clothing, look to the brands that have Fairtrade jeans, you can get them at Target now for not for the same prices as what I call non Fairtrade cheats, that's important. That's important. So make make the bigger purchase through your second month. You know, maybe it's, you know, looking for a sweater or you know, a pair of jeans. A friend of mine just bought a new mattress and was thrilled to realize that you can find Fairtrade mattresses and Fairtrade Bedlam bed linens now as well. So if labor concerns are really close to your heart, you don't like the idea that there's over 30 million slaves living on this earth today right now. And I mean, real slaves making your stuff then Fairtrade is a really great, easy option. Easy option?

Lynn: 1:22:14

Yeah, that's, that's that that number is just stunning. 39. Yeah,

Diane: 1:22:18

and, and if you really are concerned about the environment, then look for those products, again, coffee, and chocolate to start with a tea that have an environmental certification, look for the little green frog from Rainforest Alliance that signals or look for any kind of eco certification, double check online, that's a real certification. But look for that, and make those choices. And then the next month, you know, if you're starting to make a larger purchase, look where your furniture is coming from, you know, you probably don't want tropical wood, unless you know, it's least certified that sustainable. And even that's can be a bit dodgy. But can you buy locally, responsibly sourced timber that's not tropical, that's either pine or something like that for furniture. It make more difficult decisions after a couple of months, but start with the easy stuff.

Lynn: 1:23:14

I love that approach. Because it's first of all, you the way you talk about it sort of takes the the guilt out of it, if you will, there's just not there should be no guilt. Yeah, and it's very matter of fact, and very accessible and, and very easy to do. So speaking of easy to do, do you happen to have like a list of apps that you recommend a list of websites and research that I can put in a show notes for people?

Diane: 1:23:39

That's what I'm working on? It's not yet. I'm working on a book that will have all of that and it'll have an accompanying website. And you can follow me at Diane osgood.com. That's daneosgot.com.

Lynn: 1:23:56

I'll have that in the show notes. Of course. Super. Thanks.

Diane: 1:23:59

And I hope to have a a wonderful easy to read easy to use guide book out shortly.

Lynn: 1:24:06

So you'll end Do you have a working title for the guidebook yet

Diane: 1:24:09

yeah, it's your shopping superpower. Be happier and change your world one purchase at a time. Because you don't have a superpower. Yet you do have the superpower as a shopper to to make choices fundamentally aligned with what you what you find matters what you really believe in. And it does make a difference.

Lynn: 1:24:36

Yeah, that's that's it really does make a

Diane: 1:24:39

difference. You know, 1% of 1% of all tuna shoppers, and then 1% of people who buy canned tuna in the mid 90s changed the way that to an industry, fishes fished. It used to be they had these big dragnets and millions of dolphins would be caught in Every year 1% of consumers said, Nope, we don't want this anymore. And the dolphin industry got together that sorry, the fishing industry got together and they changed the way they fish for tuna as a result, we just 1%

Lynn: 1:25:17

We just have to remember our power. And that we have

Diane: 1:25:19

exactly we have choice, and that it's a wonderful thing. It is a superpower. A superpower to have. Yes,

Lynn: 1:25:29

I love choice. It's one of my biggest values. Well, Diane, thank you so much for being here. And what I will say to everybody listening, yes, you may want to leave her a voice message through me, I have a voicemail button on my podcast page at Lynn current.com and then click podcast. On the right there is a little voicemail button, I think it's really looks like it's not even on the page. But it's on the right is a little black button. And you can leave me a voicemail, which I will pass on to Diane or you always can find me at loan current.com. And if you enjoyed this, or if you were feeling like you want to share it, it's super easy to do. Every podcast app has that share button. And I would love it if you would share the podcast. So thank you for listening, and we will see you next time. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.