#32 Kira Higgs: Peace of Mind When You Have No Control

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Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the creative spirits unleash Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Kira Higgs, who's an author, facilitator, strategist and so much more. If you've ever had something happen to you, that made you feel out of control, you need to listen to this conversation. We started right in with a bicycle accident that she had many years ago and it was one of those life defining moments for her. In this conversation, listen to how she made choices to navigate through her recovery. It's a masterclass in wisdom, especially about what we can and what we cannot change. The whole conversation is a masterclass really about her wisdom and facilitation in calling out what she sees. And in helping others get clarity on their thinking. You can't help but get clarity for yourself in this conversation. Now, here's a little bit about Kira. She's been a leader of leaders since the early days of her career, she guides innovative thinking during strategy development and leans heavily into the principles of structural dynamics, which we talk about in this conversation. She is a certified Structural Consultant. And in that she unlocks the visions and ideas of her clients to construct clear paths forward. Now I believe this conversation will help you and your path forward. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Kyra Higgs. Kara, welcome to the podcast. Lynne.

Kira: 1:48

It's great to be with you here. Thanks for inviting me,

Lynn: 1:51

I am so excited that we got to do this. It's very cool to be talking to you in this venue and not in the venue that we normally talk in, which we'll explain to people in a few minutes. But I never know how I'm going to start as people who listen to this podcast No. So I'm I'm going to just start with something that in the time I've known you, I have come to realize that you are one of those people that uses adversity as a platform to make yourself stronger. Not that you don't love it, not that you necessarily love adversity, but that you have had some adversity, I'm specifically remembering a bike accident that you have talked about in your writing. But that's not the only adversity but somehow you let allow it to shake you. So I would just love for you to tell a story. If you have one that comes to mind about how you've used adversity, and the good, the bad, the ugly about it and how it shaped you.

Kira: 3:00

Well, then you didn't waste any time. Jumping right in? Well, you know, it's not that I think adversity, I don't seek it out. I don't I don't feel like I need it to grow. But I work with what's there. And at least I aim to work with what's there. The bike accident accident you're referring to and I do write about it in my in my book is when I was on a fantastic ride on a late autumn day. And I just crossed the bridge that that connects Oregon and Washington state over the Columbia River. And I miscalculated on a simple turn that involved another car and kind of jotting around behind her and this gal was driving very slowly and in my mind, I was impatient. And I was wanting her to hurry up. She was slowing my ride down. And I was already a bit agitated and a bit amped up on that on that ride. Hit a hit a curb, I thought I could like a mountain bike or kind of leap over it with my handlebars pulled up. So I put all my weight into pulling the handlebars up. But physics did not agree with me at that moment and decided the thing to do was to stop my wheel and I went over the top. Oh, I'm holding on to the handlebars. So I landed squarely on my chin in every bit of pressure went there. And I knew it wasn't good. The people around me were phenomenal. They rushed over to see if I was okay. I only had a little cut underneath my chin. But I knew something bad had happened because I could feel like my jaw. Wow. So they they were very kind and encouraged me to take an ambulance. I didn't want to but I did and went to the hospital and The folks in the ER thought, well, she's not that badly banged up. But we'll do the X ray. And the fellow who came back in afterwards, who, who, who kind of was rolling his eyes beforehand just looked at me with so much sympathy. And he said, You've broken both your kondiles on either side. So when I saw the surgeon about it the next within the next few days, he said, There's nothing we can do, really, the research suggests that you just need to let this heal on its own. But your bite will be forever changed. Ever been able to eat a sandwich and and have your upper teeth and lower teeth, pinch the food, it'd be like, you won't be able to bite off the middle of the sandwich, you'll get the, you know, the top and the bottom in the middle, you won't have contact with. So he did recommend wiring my jaw closed for a month to give the whole apparatus an opportunity to relax and heal on its own, which I did. So that was an amazing month. I was tender, I was raw, I was stunned, I was shocked. The pain wasn't, wasn't so bad. Because they when they word it shut, they really did position it so that there was a relaxing in the jaw. But boy, I had never been that vulnerable. It it's like it. Anybody who's had an experience where something of their reality gets shattered and instant, it can be the death of someone that they love, it can be the loss of a job that they counted on, it could be all kinds of things. It's your reality changes really fast. And the things that you're used to resting on aren't there anymore. And so I felt that shattering. And I had the support of my meditation community who I could rest on, I could, I could be within in conversation like this. But I could also be within in practices that we do together. Because not all of our practices are silent. It often involves looking together at spaces that are spaces of consciousness that we're sharing together in that moment. So they helped me navigate that. And I feel like it, it opened my heart in ways that might not have opened, maybe would have opened in other ways later. So it's not like I was trying to make lemonade out of lemons, I was trying to be with what was happening and like go into what could happen. And one very cool upside of this, I had to cancel plans to go to South America because I wanted to immerse myself in Spanish language learning. And that kind of worked up the courage to go do that and decided, well, this is not the time I'm too fragile to go to a foreign country. But I was introduced at that moment to someone who was looking for facilitation support, with a brand new initiative for the community that had never been done before it was bringing together all the different racial and ethnic groups that were often overlooked and discounted in our educational system. And they said, Would you like to get involved in working with this and helping to launch it, I ended up going into a cultural Mecca, that I probably wouldn't have ended up in, if it hadn't been for this accident, and enjoyed that work for about three and a half years. So it it didn't get me into South America. But it got me into parts of a community that are traditionally known as very white and mainstream dominant culture, and expose me to the most extraordinary people and cultures and perspectives and really widen my horizon in that way too.

Lynn: 9:02

Amazing. You know, I'll tell you, there's a lot I want to pull from that story. But there's something that really struck me was that you weren't making lemonade out of lemons, but that you were being with it. How did that help you with your healing, both mentally and physically? Well,

Kira: 9:29

I there was something instinctive going on, and I know more about it now than I knew about it then. So what I knew then, was that I couldn't really lift the finger to drive us in a particular way. And I didn't feel called to do that. I didn't feel an impulse to make something of it or Yeah, or make it other than what it was or put a put a little bow on it. I mean, it was awful. I Therefore, I could appreciate things that were really, really happening. So the outpouring of love was amazing. And people made me soups, because I, you know, my mouth was wide shut. So I could only be liquids lost a lot of weight. But they would they would like please can we bring. And I was like this little bird with a broken wing, and knew I couldn't even let that many people into my nest, because I was so tender. So they would bring it and leave it on my porch, or a few people would leave it on knock on the door, and I would know who it was. And like, I would be okay in that moment and say, come in, and we'd sit for a few minutes. And I would just absorb what they were extending to me. Not I wasn't trying to suck it up. I was just being with Wow, there's just so much love and caring that they're giving me right now. And, and let that touch me. Rather than think that so you remember, well, we I should tell you, your listeners. I'm a very independent person. Very autonomous. Yeah, I I'm used to doing things on my own. I asked for help when I need it. But yeah, I can do it myself. I'm not gonna ask for help. So this was a new mode to really be clear. Yeah. Yeah. So I,

Lynn: 11:30

I have to, I have to say that when I fell off the horse and had a broken collarbone, I had a friend come to help me and I was cooking us breakfast. And she goes, What are you doing? I came to help you. And I said, Well, my, my left arm works. So I can cook one handed. She goes, sit down, let me cook for you. And it was really hard to do. Like to allow others to, to help us is not that easy. Right? Especially when we're independent and autonomous.

Kira: 12:01

Yeah. And, and it was funny to also discover, I don't know if you felt this in that moment, but I could let go and let somebody do things for me, and not suddenly have this other voice about how I wanted to instruct them, or tell them how to do it. Like, that was gone, too. I was like, Oh, I'm just gonna see what comes back.

Lynn: 12:22

That's, I find that even more amazing, because I've, I find that that little when there's uncertainty or whatever my reaching for control is that, like, here's how you cook my eggs, or here's how to do it. And I think to really lean into it and yield that way is is really, really unusual.

Kira: 12:44

I think that was the depth of the accident lens, I think, yeah, I, I didn't have it in me to control. I think that was to give me a taste of what that is and discover, I can live through that I can survive that I can actually even in a particular way enjoy the the gripping of how it has to be and and allow something to emerge. That that was a big learning,

Lynn: 13:13

man. And how has that carried forward into work like the work you've got the facilitation project that you just mentioned, but all the work since because my sense of I've gotten to watch you facilitate quite a bit, and I've gotten to see how you interject questions and then allow whatever to be I never get a sense that you're trying to control with your facilitation. So how is that one of the ways it's carried forward? Or how are there other things that might have carried forward?

Kira: 13:50

There was a project I had with a nonprofit school that fell right when my mouth was wide shut. I called up the executive director. And I had to talk like this because my mouth was wide shut. And I said, Listen, I had this accident. And I know we're supposed to be doing the retreat with your board. But maybe you need to find somebody else because I'm willing to do it. But I am not going to have all my faculties like I normally would. And he said no, Kara, we really want you we really want you. So I said all right, I'll do it. It was an amazing, it was an amazing day with these folks. There was a moment in that session where they were getting into some disagreements with each other and they were pretty deep. And they were going to significantly shape the direction that the school took. It was like you're either going to go towards a you're going to go towards B and it was beginning to get heated. And all I did in that moment, because I couldn't see what was the right Way to go, I quit. I didn't, couldn't be mediator. In that moment, I, I just open, what little I could have my mouth. And I said, I named what I saw going on, I just stated the obvious, which turned out to be the most neutral thing that could have been done, probably not what I would have done otherwise. And like magic, everything in the room changed. Everyone got very positioned in a different way, because they were looking at it now together the same set of in two different camps. And one of the members of the board came up to me afterwards, he had a former commissioner in the city, and he said, I've seen a lot of facilitators do their do their work, I've never seen anybody do it, like you do it. And what was what was going on for me was I was I was absolutely not the center of attention. I was the observer and the reflector, and asking them to look at certain things, but not I was less of a guide than ever, who was just more like this reflective presence. So that was that was a really great feedback for me to hear from him, that it was so impactful. And it was not a mode, it wasn't a tool, you know, to use your tools, not rules, it was not a tool that I normally would have drawn from. But now I do that so much more. And to your point about working in the groups that you and I have been in, I do have an intention. My intention is clarity. My intention is that people come and get what they're looking for to move their own work forward. But I'm not. When I ask a question, I don't presume I have an answer. I'm just asking kind of the what seems to be the question in the space that needs to be named.

Lynn: 17:02

It it's often hanging there, isn't it?

Kira: 17:04

Yes, you're very good at that, too. I've noticed?

Lynn: 17:07

Well, I think we share probably a love of truly being a facilitator and not, I'm going to put quotes around it teacher, or speaker. I was asked the other day by a group that wants to come and do a retreat at our camp, if I would speak to them. And I said, Well, I am happy to speak to you. But I typically don't do presentations or speeches. What I prefer to do is facilitate what I call a working session where I sit on the side of the room and help you all be better together. And that sounds like exactly what you just did for that group.

Kira: 17:49

It is I had to be I had to be central enough for them to follow me. But I'm a guide. i It's great to work with experts. I love working with experts who really know their field I learned so I get so turned on hearing them in their element, and what they know. But as a as an expert guide, what I can do with them is to draw things out that they aren't a they don't even know need to be drawn out. But I can I can see what's missing from the picture. Uh huh. And, and if they add that into the picture, how much further they're going to be able to go. So it's, it's a beautiful synergy. I love that synergy.

Lynn: 18:36

I love that space. And when I first started learning, the idea of facilitation and it was not with with a controlling brain like mine at me. But I remember once I started realizing that I could start watching for the unseen in a room that I would never be bored in a meeting again. I've often coached my clients who, you know a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are in some kind of corporate life world where they're having to, sometimes they're back to back meetings. And it's all they can do to stay present. And I will say to them, you know, using Ron Heifetz term get on the balcony and start paying attention to the dynamics in the room and what goes on that's in the unseen and I have a sense that I would you and I have not gotten to be in the same room together physically, but we've done it a whole lot of times virtually. I would guess that you kind of have the same vision in a way that you see that the unseen and that's some of what you're talking about. How do you do that?

Kira: 19:43

Well, there's an instinct to it. I think some people are naturally have that ability. And I don't know that it's a it's a terribly easy thing to learn but it is learnable and I'm playing around now with something that my A friend and mentor, Robert Fritz is asking the students who study with him to paint. And he's the author of the path of least resistance path of least resistance. He's got a number of other books that are phenomenal. He's really been interested his entire life in the creating process. Yeah. And he is asking those of us who are who were further along in studies in structural dynamics, to really pay attention to the negative space. And I don't mean negative as in. Yeah. Punitive or like, yeah, that, rather, it's from an arts or arts standpoint, you can, you can draw a chair, say with pen and paper, or you can, you can have your pen capture the space around the chair. So the chair, technically on paper is left empty white, it's white space, and you filled in the negative space around it. And then what emerges is the vision of the chair, I done

Lynn: 21:08

that exercise in a watercolor class and that I had an instructor do it and you don't know what he's painting. And all of a sudden, boom, and you're like, Whoa, it was defined by what? What is it? Chair? Yeah.

Kira: 21:22

So there's a lot that can be seen, when you're paying attention to the negative space, not just what's evident, but what's implied or what's missing. And that also sparks curiosity. About me, I think a lot of my questions come from there, when I'm with people is there's things that they haven't said, that seem like they're lurking, kind of in the negative space to press into an explore. And so that's, that's a lot of think of what I'm doing.

Lynn: 21:55

You know, that, that? I don't know, if curiosities and emotion are a tool or a brain space or an internal state? I don't know exactly, you know, because it seems to be all of those things. But a lot of times when people are asking me why I say they should assume positive intent, which was the subject of the elegant pivot. I say it's the gateway to your curiosity. Because otherwise you think you know, and then you operate off of, you know, frankly, faulty information, because you haven't gathered everything, you know, we never can know everything.

Kira: 22:29

Well, the human mind doesn't like not knowing. No, it doesn't. And so it does these things to fill in. And all kinds of assumptions. And these days, I'm just My mind is blown by how prevalent concepts are, that actually, when you hold them up to reality, they just don't, they don't hold water. They don't stand up to scrutiny. And yet, do you have a real

Lynn: 22:54

sense of something that you see like that of concepts that don't hold water?

Kira: 22:59

The one that's maybe the biggest in my craw lately, is people who think they have to motivate themselves? I have no, I have to motivate myself. Mm hmm. And I just, I don't think that's, I don't think that's the way to go. I think that's self manipulation. Really, when people stop and look at what they want, that they can see, do they want it? Or do they not want it? Yeah. People when they want something, they they know how to go about it. They make they get it going? They

Lynn: 23:32

Oh, yeah. Right. They make space for it.

Kira: 23:36

I mean, the teenager who wants to play video games is going to figure out how to do it. Even if the parents outlawed in the house, they're gonna they're gonna figure it out. So I just eat all these books and and experts in life, hackers, and yada, yada, yada talking about how to motivate yourself on like, stop it.

Lynn: 23:56

Yeah, cuz that's not there's something else going on motivating yourself isn't the answer.

Kira: 24:00

Right? Right. Right.

Lynn: 24:03

What do you think? What do you think is keeping somebody who says they want X but isn't doing X from doing it?

Kira: 24:12

Oh, gosh, there could be so many reasons.

Lynn: 24:14

That's part of

Kira: 24:18

that's what I love about the work I've done for the last five years. So one thing that might be going on is that they haven't yet in their own mind organized. They're thinking about what they value the most that they really want to go for, and then the secondary choices they need to make to support that. So for example, somebody would want to earn money, get up in the morning and go to their job, right to earn the money. But the truth is, they don't really want to have to set the alarm clock and get up at that they'd rather have their body wake up at a different time. But they want the job and they want the money? So if the primary choices income, and that's the job they want to stay in, then the secondary choices, I'm going to set my alarm clock, and I'm going to get up and be there on time. Yeah. And they can not like it. They don't have to like it. But the reality is, that's how it's that's how the math is gonna work. They could choose to go to a different job that starts later. That'd be fine. Like they could do. But to keep to keep our argument internally going on about how hard this is, and it's making my life miserable while you're choosing it. Those the job this is the secondary, so you do it. Yeah, that's one way I think about it. The other, there can be many other things going on inside a person's personal structure that would, to your point, keep them from following their motivation. Right, it could be any number of things. And that's why this whole life hack thing also is a little weird. It's like saying, here's the prescription. Yeah, but the diagnosis hasn't necessarily happened first.

Lynn: 26:13

I think a lot of times, we don't know what we want to, I think we say we want something. And we might want that income, but what we really want is not to have to have income that we earned, but just the ability to do whatever we want, whenever we want it.

Kira: 26:27

That's a really, that's a really Western, maybe, maybe not just Western desire. Maybe that's been around for eons? I don't know.

Lynn: 26:38

It's, it's hard to know, you know, the, when I was working with this guy that I've been working with, with horses, Bruce Anderson, he talks about the world that we have made versus the world we are made for. And that sort of modern society with the the bye bye bye ideas, the way we get sort of triggered to go, you know, solve a lot of problems by getting the endorphin kick of the next thing we bought on Amazon or whatever we do versus actually living according to our nature, which, you know, is isn't economy driven. It's more survival driven, but it's, you know, the economy, I think uses our survival mode to make money off of us.

Kira: 27:30

And and people feed us concepts to put us in their purchasing line. Yeah, yeah. Well, let's go back to motivation. How do you support people that when you feel they don't know what they want? What do you do?

Lynn: 27:48

You know, that's, it's a great question. And actually, interestingly enough, I don't start with finding out what they want. I start by showing them what I think is the core balancing act that we all have in our lives, and usually that will open them up to say, Oh, he mean, I get to actually look for what I want, not what everybody else wants for me.

Kira: 28:10

So interesting to me to hear that. Do you find that is more the case than not that people feel that they're they're attuned to what others want rather than what they want

Lynn: 28:24

in different forms and fashions. So you know, that the core balancing act, and I really honed in on this when I heard Gabor Ma Tei describe it in the addiction world, but it is that it's attachment and self expression. And if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that's the bottom of the pyramid and the top of the pyramid. But that makes no sense to me the pyramid. But the Maslow didn't draw, draw a pyramid, but that's a whole nother story. But you know, as Gabor Ma Tei, said, if those are our two core human needs, attachments going to win every time. Because our survival depends on having community and other people. And especially because of our upbringing. I mean, we're babies that can't take care of ourselves. So we kind of learn to fit into our families. Sometimes our way of fitting in is to not fit in, but even that is a form of attachment. And, you know, self expression is being who we were made to be. And that's the journey I usually take people on is beginning to understand what really lights them up. And recognizing that this other thing, which is necessary might be overused is almost certainly overused.

Kira: 29:40

So when I hear you describe that, I'm picturing that what you're doing is putting people more in touch with reality, which is that they are free. They do have choice. Mm hmm. What they thought were obligations aren't yeah And that allows them to actually identify for themselves what it is dandy that they want. Yes. And actually, what, in the standpoint in their standpoint,

Lynn: 30:12

it's a beautiful shift. And it's just, you know, the place, one of the places I learned to do that is where it was done for me is in reading Julia Cameron's book, the artists way. And I find it useful book, beautiful book. And I find it incredibly ironic, because so many of those exercises, I did it in 1999. And just the other day, I found one of her list was right 20 Things that you love to do, and the last time you did them. And that's a great excavation tool to sort of find out what you like. And I looked at my list, and number one on my list was ride horses. Wow. And yet it was that was written in 1999. It wasn't until 2017 that I was on another horse. Wow, that's the one where I had my accident. And now look at me, like I'm I'm constantly, you know, working with talking about have learned more from my horse work about coaching, and corporate life than I ever dreamed I would. But that's, that's the kind of way we have to find out those things without the interference from our parents, or society or our spouse, or what we think we're supposed to be doing what we've been programmed to do.

Kira: 31:30

The working title right now for my book is winnowing, a spiritual memoir of doing an undoing. And it's exactly, it's the undoing, it's this, it's the unlearning and all the conditioning that we were given. I was given as a kid to be successful, because that was considered what you should do and be, and the identity that needs to be put together to do that, and the, you know, all the strategies. And, and when when that starts to get deconstructed, the world looks very different. The world looks so it actually, there's more we have more access to more of what we want. When we're not in that mode.

Lynn: 32:14

It's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And and the picture that I have you used the word earlier about being open when you had your bike accident, it's the opening that feels makes us feel vulnerable, but at the same time, it is the thing that makes so much possible. Yeah. So

Kira: 32:35

hard, so hard. Like, you could have told me that Lynne when I was 19. And I could have intellectually understood it, but I didn't have any life experience yet around that. And so it would have gone in one ear and out the other, and son, like a really nice concept. And I wouldn't have understood it. I don't know how anybody learns that without living it,

Lynn: 32:57

I think you have to live it. And in fact, a lot of times when people come to me in their late 20s or early 30s, and say they want to start doing some of the kind of work I do, especially at the deep levels, with the with the kind of coaching that that I do. And that I think is the level of coaching and facilitation that you do they I say you can't yet because you need to go have a lot of screw ups first. Like you've got to gather a lot of, you know, you've got to go test the theory of the technical side, if you will understand more of this instinctive side. That is really where life is. And I think our ancestors knew this. Like, I feel like our nature is to be in nature. And so we we can feel the unseen when we're when we don't have a choice, if that makes sense. Like when our life depends on it in a natural

Kira: 34:02

way. Tell me more about the ancestors what you're what you're pointing to there.

Lynn: 34:12

You know, I, I'm going to call it the people who didn't live in the modern world, okay. Because what I keep seeing about the modern world is how far it takes us away from our nature because everything becomes push button and easy and flip a switch and the light comes on and go to the grocery store. Food shows up. And if I think about even my grandmother, you know, they as I was growing up, and they're in the 70s as a young child and 80s they still had their victory garden and considered it essential, you know, to have those peas in the tomatoes and carrots in the corn. And of course we ate that food out of the garden and it was not easy it required cultivation it required paying attention into the cycles of nature of paid, you know, we have to pay attention to the soil to the water, you know, to the right seeds to the things that go to our essence and modern life. I feel like keeps taking us away from that which takes our power away.

Kira: 35:19

What I've been noticing on that line is that for one thing, the whole question of what good water in our world right now.

Lynn: 35:28

Great point, right?

Kira: 35:30

It's bringing my awareness so squarely on my relationship to the cycles of of the seasons and the way so sometimes now I will run the water and in the morning to put it in the in the teakettle. And I'll think to myself, Wow, I have running water.

Lynn: 35:52

Yes, me too. I do the same thing.

Kira: 35:55

And we know on the west coast that there could at any moment, be a an earthquake, that would be the big one. The Cascadia subduction zone. And it would have on the West Coast, let's

Lynn: 36:08

make that clear. Yeah, yep.

Kira: 36:09

I live just over the over the Columbia River in Washington. And it could, it could take all the infrastructure down, and I would not have running water, I would not, I would have to figure out where to get water, I would have to figure out how to get to where I can get water. So the little act of running water through my faucet in the kitchen in the morning. It's sort of a beautiful thing. And I I'm learning more about not taking that these modern conveniences for granted. Yeah, I didn't feel that way. When I was younger, it seemed like the norm. Like this is just how about how the world is? Yeah, electricity, and you have water and so forth. Yeah. One of the things I wanted to come back to islands in this line, is that back to concepts. Do people really think about all that they actually do need to live? They like what do they need? They need any water, any food? Warmth, shelter? And some things as you pointed out social media connection? And how much more do they really need? Yeah, they they need an iPhone. A trip to Cancun, you know, do they need the mortgage, the house that they're they're living in. And so this is one of the other things that gets in the way of people really knowing what they want is so much of their energy is dedicated to upholding a lifestyle that they maybe even no really want, if they stopped and looked.

Lynn: 37:52

Exactly be and for what it gives them. You know, I mean, if you look at the things we need, and by the way, including air and sunlight, and if you look at what we're doing sometimes to the planet, it really, it really makes you say, Okay, we're doing all of this stuff, to, you know, get this whatever status or feed our egos or make our lives easy or make us feel good about ourselves. And, you know, this is the, this is the work that I want people to begin to understand. And it is that it's almost like you can get like Drew Bruce literally talks about this and endorphin kick, that doesn't require you to have to go buy something, but that you've done it because you solved a difficult problem, not by being perfect, but by allowing the situation to tell you what to do. And listening. And this is what facilitators I think Do we let the people in the room tell us what they need to hear what to do, you know, the language he uses is what to do, when to do how to do and be the conduit is is kind of the head heading of that and when we learn to be the conduit. So for example, go back to the gardening example. The seasons tell us when to plant except for in the modern world, we put in greenhouses and define nature and have strawberries in February.

Kira: 39:21

Well, isn't Bruce. You can tell me whether this is true or not. It seems that he's encouraging the people that he works with. To let the horse be a horse. Yes, so horse is a horse. Like that's the reality it's the horse is a horse. So you want it to be doing something other than horse, but that's ridiculous. So how do you how it seems that what he does with people is bring them into current the current moment to relate to the horse as horse. Yeah, and understand we're working About level,

Lynn: 40:00

not, it's not a motorcycle, although some people, you know, come and get on like me. And when I started I call it machine thinking. It's you know, he's been trained. So if I say, right, he should go right. And if he doesn't want to go, right, you know, the machine is broken and something's wrong with me. And so that's, you know, that idea of facing truth. And I know that's one of your things is to help people face hard truth. And back to the story you were talking about when you said, I just tell people what I saw was happening in the room.

Kira: 40:32

How say that was hard truth. I mean, sometimes it's hard because it hurts. Or it's hard because you don't like it. Yeah. But sometimes, often, people who connect with the truth have this aha. And even though they don't like it, it liberates them, and they can feel it in their body. Yeah. It's like, Yeah, I wish it wasn't this way. But finally, it's out. Finally, it's on the table. Yeah, I don't have to, like spend all this energy resisting it anymore, or trying to resist what's real. Yeah. So it's an interesting, hard truth. Sometimes, and sometimes it's just truth that can can evoke all kind of responses. I love it when people take a deep breath, and relax. When something finally gets named. Like, oh, I could have felt that and just couldn't name it before.

Lynn: 41:30

Yeah, well, that's. So this is, this is one of the interesting things, I was just having this conversation with a client yesterday about what gets named and what doesn't get named, especially in the corporate world. And in this particular case, she left a meeting feeling like her boss had been blowing, I'm just gonna use the term blowing smoke and her up harass, you know, like, telling her what she wanted to hear not transparent at all, in order to give her the news of it, which could be a difficult decision, or could be the best decision ever, depending on how she chose to say it. And I thought this is happening. I hung up from that call, and I thought this is happening across, you know, companies 1000 times a day, with people who are getting what I think of as an incongruent message. So how, how have you work with people to help them get their messages into congruent, it seems to me like that's one of those things where you, you name it, and then they get to be relieved and go, Oh, finally, somebody said, what's really happening?

Kira: 42:38

You know, I had jobs in the past that were in corporate communications.

Lynn: 42:43

Fine, where he probably had to shade the truth. And

Kira: 42:46

well, that's like, I I'm sure that I know. In fact, I write about this in the book, I know that some of my skill as a writer, and a communicator, ended up being in service to things that I wouldn't say were shady. But we're certainly what the corporate meme want it to be. But by the same token, I refused to write things that were lies. I was never asked to do that. Although I was in a couple situations where the executives would have looked the other way and been happy with it. And I wouldn't do it. I, and I was I was for some reason, then. I don't know why. I was afforded the ability to coach upward to my executives, and encourage them to be encouraged them to be more straight. And I think it was because they trusted me. And I was giving them the straight skinny. And I wasn't, they knew I wasn't trying to like gain anything for myself. Yeah, often I was just naming what I saw, and and suggesting how they could work with it. And sometimes, often, let's say this way, often, they were like, oh, that's all I have to do. I just have to like, name this thing. Yeah, yeah. You just have to name this thing. I'll tell you a quick story about one of the CEOs I worked with who was brilliant communicator, when it came to creating alignment. We were going through a bankruptcy was a chapter 11 proceeding. Came out of the blue it in my mind, although I think the top people probably saw it brewing for a while. And he said, here's how I'm going to lead. I'm going to tell people what I know. I'm going to tell them what I don't know. And when I do know it, I'm going to come back and tell them because this was a constant state of change in turmoil. And week to week there was new things going down that we had to stand top off. And he did. And we had regular all hands meetings, and he would get up there and he would say here's what I know. Here's where we are today. Here's what's happening. Here's where we're going. I don't know this. I don't know. That one, I know what I'll come back and tell you. And because he was willing to do that we had such a high retention rate for the employees who otherwise would have bailed and if they bailed it would have really knocked the sale price down. Yeah. So it ended up being a good outcome. And, again, a better outcome than it might have been. Because he was shooting straight. He was being really honest with people, and creating that kind of alignment just by naming what was so.

Lynn: 45:28

And you know, what scares people in those circumstances. And I have been through I don't even know how many mergers which, you know, we're complete upheaval, it's the uncertainty, and it's the feeling like, they're not letting us know everything. And so we have to fill in the blanks, and the human brain just automatically fills in the blanks with the worst possible news,

Kira: 45:51

you have to maybe going back to where we started, that's where the accident that bike accident helped me was to have, you know, a month of a month plus, of letting that sink in that I am not in control. I know people who, when they're facing death, they really get that, you know, it's they can't deny it, they can fight it, but it's happening. We it's exciting to me to see things happening and, and learning occurring in our culture, to bring people to this awareness of it's like we we've been so focused on a culture, how to control the shit. It's just control, control, control, mechanized, you know, make the products identical every time, no room for error, like we've been so in that mode, that people forgot that we don't necessarily have control of everything. And you don't even know if you had control of it until after the fact. Yeah, going into it, you might want control and you might not have it. And it's such an it's such an amazing thing when we stop and think about it that people aren't connected to that reality.

Lynn: 47:09

That is that is one of those ways where you just kind of put that truth in front of everybody. It's like this is this is the way it is. And I feel like that's one of the themes that I I've had the good fortune to get to read your book as it has unfolded. Actually, at the beginning of our conversation, I promised to let people know that you and I met in writing and community which is an akimbo workshop, I believe we

Kira: 47:38

and I'm so glad we did choice for me of being in that in that community,

Lynn: 47:43

it will the community, you know, there's a there's a this is a meme that I think might be true, which is that you are most influenced by the people who are around you something like you kind of are the sum of the five people closest to you. And I think the five is a is a arbitrary number in a way but that you've been that kind of person for me, like you've been one of those people that raised me, just by the virtue of being your presence in the in our sessions and in your questions and so forth raised raised me up in a really positive way. So and I'm sure people are wondering, like what the heck is riding in community. And I will say I found the akimbo workshops, because I like to I think I started by listening to Seth Godin podcast. He's a really brilliant marketer. He's the author of a lot of books. The One A lot of people know about is something about epic. It's called Purple Cow, Purple Cow, right. And he's been blogging for over 8000 days, he blogs every single day. And he's kind of the force behind this company called a Kimbo, which I believe is creating the kind of learning that I think we've all really needed. I think a lot about the education system in this country and akimbo workshops, I did the storytelling workshop, and I did writing and community, they set the conditions for you to learn with other people, and they do provide content, but it's mostly on you to do the learning and to do the work. It's really different than slapping people's butts in a room and trying to control them.

Kira: 49:25

Right. Right. Well, He's, um, he has a wonderful conversation with Tim Ferriss. I think it's unfairnesses podcast. They've spoken at least twice, I believe. Yeah. And I listened to Seth describing why he set up the akimbo community. He had something to teach and he wanted to reach a bra as broad of a number of people as they possibly could. And he didn't want it to be a university per se. Because I could only reach so many people So he really thought about what's the model I could create, to, to do what I want to do to instruct to help people learn. And then I found his work in the Kimbo through the Freelancers workshop, which was phenomenal. I think I took that in maybe 2018 or 19, maybe earlier, maybe 2017. And talk about self initiated learning, which I think is a phenomenal model for public schools for any schools really, where the back to motivation, the students identifies what they want to learn, what are you curious about? What are you hungry to know? Yeah. And then we will help you learn that we will help you find the resources so that you can acquire the knowledge you're looking for. So he had this great content, but the magic happened and how the students connected with each other and compared projects and notes and learning and questions and challenges and similar in writing and community.

Lynn: 51:09

Yeah. Yeah, that's that. I mean, that's been what's amazing. Because for people to get kind of a picture of how it works is they do sub divide you so that you're in smaller groups that you tag so that as you put your workout, maybe 15, people regularly see what you're doing. But his his analogy is, you know, it seems overwhelming at first, but it's like going into the your university, cafeteria for the first time, you know, at first it's overwhelming, and then eventually, you kind of figure out your people and the table you're gonna sit at, yeah, and the like minded places, you know, you sort of find, you know, like in the group where and there's people writing poetry and fiction, and they're writing business books, and they're writing, you know, some motivational books, there's all kinds of different, you know, one of our people, we have a subgroup that we call the writer salon wrote this phenomenal book called The Focus fight. She's been on my podcast, Terry, Tom off talking about the fight to her with her son five time, cancer. And you know, that, that book needs to be in the hands of anybody who's involved in hospitals and training people how to help parents through this stuff, because it's so much more than just what the procedures are. But you know, that that idea that we are, it's almost like a Facebook feed in a way, you know, it's on this platform called discourse. We're commenting back and forth with each other. We're quote, unquote, turning in our work, either providing, you know, a daily writing or whatever the workshop calls for, and you really kind of get what you

Kira: 52:46

put in. Yeah, what I call that as posting on the boards. Yes, posting on the boards, because the boards are like a bulletin board, and anybody can walk along and see it. Yes. And and read it and ask a question, or say, hey, I really liked the way you phrased that. Or, oh, when you said this, it reminded me of this really cool moment, my own life, or tell me more about this i that I'm left hanging, can you write more here? And it's it really helps each author? I think, when the questions and the suggestions come through like that, it helps them further develop their Yes,

Lynn: 53:21

it's a balancing act, because you know, you're, you're putting your work out when it's still raw. And especially those of those of us who, you know, I have a lifelong relationship with trying not to be a perfectionist, but wanting it to be you know, perfect when it comes out, and it's not going to be, and so then you're, you know, you're feeling the

Kira: 53:45

need, and your work is very good. When it goes up. I have to say, when I read your posts, I'm like, wow, this is real. This is it's it's got, the theme is clear, the direction is clear. The pacing is wonderful. So I just find your, your post to be terrific.

Lynn: 54:02

Well, thank you, I really appreciate that everybody's been waiting, because I've been promising this book dancing the tightrope for a while, and it is coming out in 22. Maybe here in the next two or three months, but and the same for yours, you know, you and I also found each other just through what we were writing about and the resonance there. But there's that part that says we have to put it out raw, but I also and get feedback while it's in its formative stage, but also be able to stay true to what we're trying to do and not start playing to the audience, which is really easy to do. And recognizing that most of our audience for our book is not on this board. These are fellow writers struggling themselves with their own books and their own insecurities around their books. So I found that to be informative and a learning journey in and of itself, just finding that balancing act.

Kira: 54:54

Totally. And it's it's what sets done the magic of it. Here's here's a funny thing. sample, I've only read one sci fi book in my entire life. It's not my genre, I'm not drawn to it. But there was a writer in the first group you and I were in who was writing sci fi. And he was in a cohort that I was dropped into randomly. So I popped in and read some of his stuff. And I was immediately drawn in what he was doing with his care, he had a really strong female character lead, right, she was badass. And I would, I would read what he was inventing and creating this world that he was pulling forward on the page. And it's not that I could comment on Sci Fi, but I could I could tell him how his reading made me feel. Yeah. And what intrigued me and ask questions about? Well, will you? Are you going to go back to that character you introduced and have him show up later on? Because I really liked him? So Where's where's that author going to get that kind of feedback, if he doesn't have his material? available for review? While he's producing it? Yeah.

Lynn: 56:10

It's such an you know, writing is such an interesting thing. When I, I was thinking about what it is to write a book. And I was when I was writing with, with really good friend of mine, and my daughter, Jen, who is also in the process of writing her second book. And she goes, you know, this is a lot harder than it looks. And we were out in the woods, what is her book about? This book is going to be about her recovery journey. recovery from addiction. Yes. And, and at some point, we're going to write a book about our, our site, each of our sides about the journey. So what was going on for me and what was going on for her. So that's out in the future, maybe after dancing the tightrope, but I looked around in the woods, and I said, Well, here's what you're really talking about, I said, you know, look at these trees as articles. Each of these trees is a standalone tree, it's got wood, you know, you could cut that tree down and form it into an article. But when you write a book, not only do you have to go find all the right trees and cut them into the right shapes and organize the, the house, but you have to also go find other things to make plumbing and electrical and sinks and light fixtures and and imagine that you had to do it without stores and without architects. So that's in a way what you're trying to do when you're writing a book. So give yourself a little break. You know, this is it. Isn't that easy?

Kira: 57:39

I've heard so many people talk about what it took them to produce a book. And now I have a much greater understanding for what it's like I knew how to write and had been in corporate communications. So I knew how to do that. But I had to unlearn the voice that I had been writing in, for effect in the corporate world. And it took me a long time to come into a voice, it's more authentically, really what I want to say and who I am. But then the structure of it is that I think that's a lot of what you're describing is metaphor,

Lynn: 58:17

structure. And, and you know that, so I've, I've been reading your stuff, and you have this amazing way of illustrating principles without hitting me over the head with a two x four. Because you're just telling your story and just is not the right word. You are impactfully telling your story. But you're giving us a window into the layers that we rarely get to see in a human. Hmm. And no, I think your writing in and of itself is winnowing. So what I'd like for you to do though, because I think there are people who are in their cars and cat like Google, what does the word winnowing mean? And, and how did you come to that title? Because I think we've been together through a lot of different titles and all of a sudden you have the title that gives me chills.

Kira: 59:05

Ah, that's exciting. The title came on a bike ride. It just came and I was just I was in this was a cool afternoon. It was this winter, actually. And I was in a section of the road. It's a route I'm off and on. It's very wooded. It's this little teeny microclimate where it gets cooler and moister for a little stretch and beautiful tall trees and it's very shady and mystical in this little section of the road and winnowing came there as we're doing Hmm. That might that might have some residents for this book. So I sat with it for a few days and it kept feeling stronger. winnowing is about how well it's it's, I'm using it as a Geron it's a verb to winnow. It's like a peeling away a stripping away. But it's not. It's not shearing. Although in the book, I, you know, the bike accident, I felt like I got sheared then Yeah, but it's about that dropping. Because in the dropping, you get down to the essence you get down to things that are more essential, more real by letting go of that, which is not that which is fallacy or concept or unnecessary to the, to the essence. So,

Lynn: 1:00:35

so it's like the artists of traction. Or

Kira: 1:00:43

art? I would say in places, yes, yes, yes,

Lynn: 1:00:48

when I hear the word, the word dropping, you know, it could be dropping something like letting go of it or literally dropping to the ground. And I think you've done both in the book.

Kira: 1:00:59

And winnowing doesn't go so far as to say it's all chemical. But it is in that it's maybe a cousin to it. That something it, you know, there's something almost chemical occurring, that allows the dropping to become more essential. So that's, I wouldn't have I would not have been able to tell you in my 20s, that my life was going to be that way. In fact, if you told me it was going to be that way, I probably would have mightily thought it. No, no, I want to be building I want to be constructing I want to be, you know, making things happen. But it turns out really beautiful things happen in the undoing more more actually can emerge out of the undoing often than in the what the mind would tell you needs to be built or developed.

Lynn: 1:01:59

Yeah, and, you know, I feel like that, that acquiring in that building and stuff like that is one of it. Some of it is the cycles of our lives anyway, like we have this acquiring phase, and then there's this letting go phase two, this is the thing we can't do when we're younger, you can't let go as much because you're still trying to figure out how to do simple things like in your 20s, how am I going to find my own house? And what's my career going to be? And how am I gonna make my way in the world, and where's my earning power. And, you know, I've got to get a new sofa, and I've got to have, you know, those kind of acquisition things. And I'm at that stage where I am deeply craving, just letting go of the things much less old ideologies and old rules that don't work. And I think it's just a beautiful thing, what's coming in your book for people to see that journey and how I mean, I know many times I would read passages of your work, you know, on the boards, and immediately find application for myself. Hmm. And not unless it necessarily a directly correlated way, it's not like you say, go do this, go do these five steps.

Kira: 1:03:16

That's so good to hear when because, as I've been writing this book, first of all, I had a friend who was a terrific writer herself. And she was one of my readers early on. And she said, You know, when you're telling stories, it's really powerful. When you whenever you get into second person, you're talking about you, or some idea you have about the world, and you just name it that way. It's just not interesting. So why don't you stick with the stories and I was like, You know what, I get what you're saying that's, that feels really spot on. And then as I've stayed in that lane story, only what I've had in the back of my mind is that a reader who picked this book up, isn't I'm not writing it. So they'll do what I did or make the choices I made. All the things I share kind of tailored to the life that I've been, you know, blessed to live. But if they say to themselves, you know, she did this thing. It's kind of like this thing that I'm thinking about. Maybe I could like if there was a reflective quality, Mm hmm. That that shine back on their life and their circumstances that illuminated something for them about their life. Yeah, then my book would be doing what I would hope it would do.

Lynn: 1:04:39

If we see somebody do something, then it's doable. You know, a lot of times we see something and say, Well, that can't be done. Yeah. And good point. You know, if it's been done that means it can be done. So, really, you know, to, to my best of my knowledge I've yet to see somebody as a human with nothing else on them flap their arms and fly like a bird. So that one we bought say can't be done. But I'm just trying to find an example that I probably could see. But like I look at Felix Bumgarner, who flew from I think he's the guy that like did a skydive from outer space. Hmm. So that means it can be done. And well, to tell the tale I'm not gonna go do that.

Kira: 1:05:28

At the at the really personal level, one of the people who would think showed me that in a really formative time was Pema children. I love Pema children when things fall apart. And I remember picking that book up and, and reading the first chapter or two, and my jaw dropping, because she was talking about some very difficult painful things and loss. And, and yet, she wasn't just she wasn't destroyed by it wasn't taken down by it. It she, she had a way of holding it. That wasn't terrifying. And I remember, this is so unnatural to my way of thinking, How does she do that? Like what's going on here? But she was revealing that it can be done through her through her own stories.

Lynn: 1:06:18

There you go. And then we have hope, because we were no longer in the uncertainty of can this be done? But more like, How can I

Kira: 1:06:28

step into that? Well, and specifically, I remember, for me reading, I only picked your book up when I really needed it. bottom of the barrel really did help here. And, and so I would be in a my breath would be tight. I would feel like my world was closing in around me that my choices were limited, that I really didn't have escape options. I was I was locked in and tight. And I would read that and I could breathe again. It's not that my problem went away. It's just that my relationship to it shifted mightily. And instead of feeling trapped by the circumstances, my standpoint really shifted. And it allowed much more to unfold from there, both in relation to the issue, but in terms of my understanding how to work with situations that are other than what I would want,

Lynn: 1:07:34

which I think we all find ourselves in and we do exactly what you said you did we tighten up. Yeah, you know, we sort of batten down the hatches we get muscularly tight we get mentally tight you know, I picture like cocooning almost like we wrap ourselves up. And that's exactly the opposite strategy that we need to actually navigate whatever the situation is, that's that opening. That's what law allows us to you know, make a whole new set of moves. So, so tell me how are tell people how can they find out more about you? Where are you on the socials? Where are you and tell us a little bit about when the we can look forward to finding winnowing out there in the in the world.

Kira: 1:08:20

I have a website Kiera Higgs calm. The very first thing on the on the landing page is a video of my clients for about one minute talking about working with me. And I only did that video because Seth Godin, and one of his chats with students in the Freelancers workshop, we had a moment to talk told him what I did. And he said, you know, in your line of work, there aren't many people who create videos describing what they do and having their clients talk about them. So if you could do something in one minute, with a series of people that just let my creative juices on fire. So

Lynn: 1:09:01

and if you watched it, it's a really cool video. And it's amazing what gets packed into that one minute how much how many people saying very profound things.

Kira: 1:09:10

And I'm so fortunate Len to have amazing clients that I love working with. So that was them. The book will be coming out this year when I don't know because it's my first time in this rodeo of writing a book. It will be independently published I because it's personal and it's spiritual. It doesn't feel right to me to have the IP belong to a publishing house.

Lynn: 1:09:37

I agree. And see that's you're just saying a very important thing. That's your intellectual property. Yeah. And publishing houses. It's a different relationship around your idea.

Kira: 1:09:49

And it's not that I think that the writing is going to be better if I retain the rights probably some of the if a professional editor from a publishing house got their hands on this, it might turn into something that's more saleable. But it wouldn't necessarily contain the same

Lynn: 1:10:12

flavor. Yeah,

Kira: 1:10:14

that is important to me to have this book carry. So I'll be hiring an editor actually have already hired one we're midway in the process. And yet to be designed book cover, excited to have a sense of what the title is going to be. And when you've talked about buying your ISBN like kind of get Yeah, little spark there, that's like an important step on an author's journey.

Lynn: 1:10:37

It is because that ISBN is the number it's like a social security number for a book. And every book and every edition has one. So you have one for Kindle, you have one for paperback, you have one for hardback, and you know anybody that's got a book, go look on the back, you'll see the ISBN number. And when you're independently publishing, you have to learn some of these little tricks.

Kira: 1:10:58

It seems like there's three birthdays for a book. So once the date that you start writing it, right, the first the first draft, the begins, once the date, you get the ISBN, because they're officially registered, that's a third date is the date that it officially publishes. Right, that's,

Lynn: 1:11:17

that's a great way to look at it. That's exactly right, three birthdays, and the one word officially publishes, I can't even begin to describe, it's like you've just finished a second marathon because the first marathon is writing the book, and the second marathon is getting it ready for publication, and then you've got a third marathon in front of you, because you've got a book out in the world and things start happening. You know, so

Kira: 1:11:42

I'm looking forward to you're saying there's that writing, then there's the packaging, yes, and getting it in distribution. So that's where the business side, that's correct. And then the third leg of it, or the third marathon of it. So we've got what 270 plus miles here is, is when you are both promoting it, and riding on whatever has been generated from the book going out in the world,

Lynn: 1:12:08

sharing what's in the world. And, for example, you know, they say something gets legs. So for example, by elegant pivot, which I put out in April, I did not anticipate, although I guess I could have, but I did not anticipate how many people would be coming back to me and saying things like, I want to do this for my team. Or I have this situation. And I'd really love for you to walk me through it. Because I can't find I'm finding myself tightening and closing down. And I need a way to open helped me see this differently. And so I'm really finding that I'm probably going to end up certifying coaches to teach it. And the reason I have to certify people to teach it is because you know, you have to have, in this particular work, there's a character in my book called fighting Francis, and it's when somebody is out to get you, they really are out to get you most of us act as if people are out to get us when they're not. And until you've been able to assume positive intent to the point where either you resolve the situation, or the person basically gets in your face and says, I can't stand you I'm trying to take you down, you know, until they either reveal themselves or you have actually, like help them find their better self. You haven't finished the work. And I've had several of those circumstances myself, where I skeptically played the game all the way to that point.

Kira: 1:13:30

That's the third the third marathon for you, then I love that it's included the creation of the workbook. Yes. And the decision to certify so that other because you're you're getting the evidence back of the effect of people taking taking a different approach, like not assuming negative intent. Right. And you're seeing that it's working, and people are telling you it's working and asking for more. And you've responded by saying yes.

Lynn: 1:14:00

Yeah. And that's, that's the next marathon, like you said, and who knows where yours will go. Because it could be another book or it could be people say I really still want your strategy book that we didn't even really talk about, that you could have written but you wrote this instead. So we'll have to save that one for part two. But if you ever decide to do that, but yeah, it's a continual marathon. And then once the book is out there, it's out there. You know? And there, yes, there's lots and lots of books. And you know, as Seth is pointed out to us many times in this journey, writing a book is not about becoming a best seller. Yeah. And I think he said even the most highest selling book of all time was sold to like less than 1% of the population of the United States. So it just helps you kind of focus on what is this for. So anyway, I am and I go ahead,

Kira: 1:14:54

you know, I wanted to say one of the things I did on my website was a have I added a page, an author page. And then gave people the option to sign up and get periodic excerpts from the book. So they can kind of follow along. Not as much as you do on the boards with a Kimbo. Yeah. But periodically and then give me feedback, you know, from readers who are right. And

Lynn: 1:15:16

then, right, and that's on your website, people can find that and sign up for that on your website. That's awesome. And I

Kira: 1:15:22

started that by just asking friends and colleagues, hey, do you want to? Are you interested? Would you like to follow along? If so here's how to do it and said, forward it to other people, if you'd like and anyone who stumbles on it can do that. And it helps me as an author to hear from people I don't know. You know, I personally, I don't have a relationship with them. Because once a book leaves our hands, it's out in the world, and it'll be picked up by whoever it's picked up by. And I would like to be hearing from people who don't know me personally about what works and doesn't work in this writing. Have you thought about doing anything like that? You

Lynn: 1:15:54

know, I haven't, but you're giving me on an idea. I think I might very well do that. Because I've, you know, in my blog occasionally, in fact, just a couple of weeks ago, I did do an excerpt from the book. And, but I haven't really put it out on the socials or anything like that. But that's an option and that you can sort of follow along. So I love that

Kira: 1:16:16

you have so many good stories that are discreet, you know, they're small enough or short enough that someone could read them. And three minutes, five minutes. Yeah, they would learn from it. But then they could also you could just start growing relationships, you know, author reader relationship.

Lynn: 1:16:34

That's a great idea. All right, people will look for that for both of us. You can follow along with the book. And go to KiraHiggs.com. You can find everything there. You can find the show notes on my website, if you want to know kind of what happened when and follow the links. We've talked about several things on this website. So Kyra, thank you so much for joining me.

Kira: 1:16:55

My pleasure, Lynn. Thanks for inviting me. It's so fun to chat with you here.

Lynn: 1:16:59

It's so much fun. And for those of you listening, if you liked this podcast, share it with your friends and give us feedback. We'd love to have ratings and your feedback. Because just like Kara said on the it's good to hear from people. I want to hear from people about what works for you in the podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.