#46: Lee McLean: The Balancing Act Between Discipline and Feel

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I am Lynn Carnes, your host. Today's episode is another in the series of my podcasts leading up to the publication of dancing the tightrope. What falling off a horse taught me about embracing pressure, fear and uncertainty. Today's guest Lee McLean knows a thing or two about staying on horses, about falling off horses and about getting back on horses. We had an incredible conversation about the balancing act of working with both horses and people. Interestingly enough, she has a book coming out called Love and rules. And I'm excited about that book. And I'm excited about this conversation. Because the reason she's on this podcast is I reached out to her a little over a year ago, after reading a post on Facebook, which I'll read for you shortly. And I said, please allow me to include this in my book, this came out. This was before her book came out. So I want you to hear what she had to say as as to what made me reach out to her. Here it goes. Imagine an old fashioned scale in the balance will hang discipline. On the other side, that intangible thing called feel. If this was your scale, which side would outweigh the other? Most of us if we are honest struggle with balancing the two. Based on our inherent personality traits along with who has mentored us, we will embrace the one mindset while struggling with its opposing view. Those of us who expect obedience seldom have our horses flat out say no. Nor do they ever behave badly. We usually feel safe in the saddle. But we can miss out on a lot of the good stuff. By enforcing rules and concentrating on precision, we sometimes lose our ability to give at just the right moment. Our writing can have a taking quality while our horses lose their natural flow. We're big on rules. Those of us who are all about connection with our mouths can have the opposite problems. In our quest forgiving and feel. We may not send our horses enough leadership. Sometimes our horses can be unreliable or inconsistent without firm boundaries. We may value the concept of peace and harmony above working through underlying problems, or times of discord. We're all about the love. Often our horsemanship mirrors our human relationships. For most of us the challenge comes in trying to find a balance between these two extremes. basic safety demands that my horses go in a disciplined manner. But the joy in my horsemanship comes from developing the soft feel. I don't necessarily think that one is any better or any worse than the other. From when we live and believe in only one approach. Our horses will never rise to be their best, nor will we. Many days before I swing the leg over, I'll stop and breathe. This is my mantra particularly on those days. I'm fierce and warlike, or days, I'm feeling frail and used loving rules, love and rules, love and rules. So that passage appears in my book dancing the tightrope, but also makes up the core of the premise of lemur cleans book which I'm so excited for you to also read her book. And let me say a little bit about who she is. This is what I this is what it says on the website for the sales of her book it says a stroke survivor, horse trainer and best selling author. Lee McLean has over 40,000 followers on Facebook, a national magazine column, and she appears at events from small town horse shows to sidesaddle racing at the Calgary Stampede. It's an it's just been it was an incredible conversation. And for those of you listening, you know, this is one of those bonus times when you get to books for the for the one podcast, so please enjoy this podcast with Lena clean. Lee, welcome to the podcast.

Lee: 4:35

Hi, Lynn. Thanks for having me.

Lynn: 4:38

One of the things that I am most excited about talking to you about and the people who are here have already heard the introduction and understand about who you are a little bit was is that I'm talking to somebody that I met. I'm putting quotes around this on Facebook and you know I have friends that say to me, you're on Facebook, and I'm not on Facebook, and I don't want that nonsense, and so forth. And I'm like, yeah, there's a lot of nonsense. But if you know how to find the signal in the noise, there are some really cool things out there. And you, your voice is one of those cool signals.

Lee: 5:22

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. There is kind of a swirling morass of Drac. On social media. Yeah. And I think one of the things that sort of steered my compass right out of the get go is when it is what it was made. 2012 My daughter said to me, mom, rather than sitting there and writing in your diaries, because every time I ride work, my horses, whatever compete with them, I come home, and I debrief. And I write it down what I've learned what I'm struggling with that, you know, the funny stuff, the stuff that makes me cry still. And she said, people would like to read that. And I thought, Whoa, there's a big difference between writing for your own journaling, for your eyes only. Knowing that you can throw it in the burning barrel if it gets too wacky, and, and writing for other people. Now, the good news is, for the first year or two, it was my mom, my sister and a couple of neighbors who read me, so that it was a slow growth thing. And it has changed how I write. But through it all, I want to be genuine. I want to give people the opportunity to judge me if they need to, because that's not my my concern, or learn from my my hardships. My boo boos, as well, as is my successes, because as I've gotten more comfortable on social media, and I'm primarily Facebook, because I'm a writer, and it's, it's a platform that allows me to do more than a little blurb under photo. As I've gotten involved in that, I'm seeing that so many people who could be our greatest teachers only want us to see the stocks that went well. And I think maybe as they age, they might get beyond needing to feel that way. But maybe it's an age thing that's being willing to be vulnerable, I don't know. But to me, that is my greatest gift to you. And any of the people who might stop buying give me the gift of their time reading, you know, all my ramblings, my gift to you in exchange is to pretty open, and sometimes that hurts me as much as it hurts the reader. It's not always easy reading.

Lynn: 7:58

That that idea of vulnerability is strength. To me is it permeates what I read from your writing. And I'm curious because there's a couple of things you said I want to I want to follow on one. Just now you said and sometimes it hurts. What do you do with the hurt?

Lee: 8:23

Sit with it. I just let it I just let it almost like cooking reducing some soup on the backburner. If you take the lid off, it just sort of, you know, permeates the air and eventually wafts away. I've spent many years trying to bury stuff, family stuff, shame in my horsemanship, because horsemanship can be filled with shame. And that doesn't work so well. Does it feel good and invariably if you if you bury it long enough, it does something inside you and you'll won't get sick

Lynn: 9:05

that more people knew that. You know, a lot of our illness comes from stuffing. I think so I'm stuffing stuff. Yeah.

Lee: 9:13

And I'm the queen of that. And it's been a long process. You know, however you however whatever you've got in your personal life and your horsemanship or whatever it takes a lot of looking at yourself before you can say I am not who I once was I am not what I did. I am you know I'm not what I'm capable of tomorrow I just down and that ties in so well with how I look at my horses and deal with them because more and more horses to me are a mirror on life. That's a very, you know, if it's not a good fit with my horsemanship, it's probably not how I should be treating my family, my children, my co workers, everything else. It's it's sometimes An Inconvenient Truth, but there it is. Yeah. Well,

Lynn: 10:10

that was absolutely one of my biggest discoveries after my horse accident when I entered a trail ride and didn't know what I was doing and had no idea how much I didn't. I didn't know what I didn't know. And as I've been on this journey I've come to the parallels are a lot closer than I would have ever dreamed between how I create horses, how I judge horses, how I judge myself about what I try to cover up, because they always show us.

Lee: 10:44

Yes, like, I think chess, musicianship gardening. horsemanship can be as tiny in our lives or as all encompassing as we care to go. And the deeper we go into it, the more we learn, oh, the more I know, the less I know, it becomes so apparent to me. I am still picking up the rain and going okay, I haven't dealt with this before I've dealt with an aspect of tour, or whatever was said to me in the grocery store is now coming out with how I'm handling something 30 miles away, you know, at home here. I think I was a lot more confident as a 20 year old rider. But it isn't just age related. Everybody feels they were better when they were children. Most everybody if they had that earlier experience. I'm thinking though as I get older, I realize there's so much more that I don't know. And that's you know, that's that's growing for all of us. It's it's suddenly understanding your parents better, right? As you get older that true. Yeah, yes, it is. So the older I get the less I know, I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable sitting with that, but I know it's true.

Lynn: 12:13

I've certainly found that and have come to realize something for myself. And it probably started with with throwing pottery when I watched the movie Ghost and you know, you see that scene where Demi Moore is throwing the pottery and it looks so smooth and you kind of look at it in my thoughts so sassy attitude, right so yeah, and I'm not I can tell you that now. But but the thought is if the thought goes through my head how hard can it be? That's my first warning signal that there's a lot of depth to this thing that I don't understand. You know and then masters are the ones who know how to make it look easy because it's they've been mastering it for so many years that you're not seeing all the tiny little corrections they're making towards balance.

Lee: 13:00

Anyone who doubts that just needs to go waterskiing over summer vacation.

Lynn: 13:06

As you probably know I'm a water skier Yes,

Lee: 13:09

as you're dragging by the handle and everybody's yelling from the boat let go the row. Calves No, you don't let go. They're off. So yeah, no, yeah, I It's we compare ourselves so easily and unconsciously with the people who have dedicated their entire lives to perfecting this and I think this is something when we are approaching things on an hourly basis. Which is natural because most of us are fitting horsemanship into a time slot in already very full lives. Yeah, we are. We're we're so easy to compare ourselves with the people that have given a lifetime. So that is time without measure. To perfecting this, they are our gurus, our leaders, everything else. Sometimes I feel as though maybe my place in the world is to be that link in between the two very different realities, because there's gotta be some room for those of us in the middle somewhere.

Lynn: 14:16

Now, you know, you you one of the people who recommended your book is Amber Marshall from Heartland. And I'm a huge Heartland fan have watched every episode and one of the episodes one of the it might have been Jack says if you if you act like you only have 15 minutes it will take all day. And if you act like you've got all day, it'll only take 15 minutes. Yes. And that wisdom you know from this TV show, which is a great TV show has really stuck with me because I have a very high energy person that tends to work in time, friends and I can get caught up in that?

Lee: 15:01

Yes. Okay. So you're working on something and you realize you're having eaten all day for instance. Yeah, right.

Lynn: 15:08

All right.

Lee: 15:12

Self care goes out the window. Yeah, okay.

Lynn: 15:15

Yeah, or I'm meeting. And I've tried to get it done. And I've got this much time and I'm used to working in what? My teachers. My horse. My horse human teacher, Bruce Anderson taught me is the modern world verte people's world, if you will, versus horses world or nature's world. And his his admonishment to me was to remember that they don't have a clock that they that horses are of nature's world. And if I will learn to work with that, it's a very different way of being. And I feel like you do a beautiful job, this has been a long way of me coming around to say, when I read your writing, of bridging those two worlds,

Lee: 16:05

thank you, thank you, I am a student, I'm a lifelong student. By choice, or maybe by by necessity, because I will never learn at all. But I'm also a teacher. And I think if you are teaching at all it is almost, it is almost an essential that you yourself, still keep yourself in lessons. And I say this, because it is so easy to forget the vulnerability that a student comes to you with, generally there is something painful or, or frightening in their past experience. And they're coming to you for help to get over it. And not judgment, necessarily. Although I am a hard teacher, I don't sugarcoat things. So I feel very different. If I'm teaching a four h class or pony club class of children who need encouragement, who need confidence, if I'm teaching somebody who's 45 years old, and has been writing for most of her life, and she's paying me I will, you know, I might I'll try to layer things. But I want to say I think if you're coming to somebody for lessons, you're wanting the truth. But at the same point, there's a real vulnerability for unloading your horse in a strange place in front of a strange person and saying, Teach me. And I never want to forget that. So I to sign up for lessons. It's, it's just what I do. It keeps me pretty grounded. Because I've still had I've had that ugly cry home, as I hold on the four lane highway, you know, when you're feeling useless, hopeless, everything else?

Lynn: 17:56

Well, that's comes that knowledge comes through in your writing. And you know, I as in my profession, as an executive coach, people often come to me and say, What should I look for in a coach, and I say to them, one of them, this, to me, this is a deal killer, if your coach doesn't have a coach run, because they're gonna be working out their stuff on you, they're not going to be in a learning mode. And right, they're going to be asking you to be in a learning mode.

Lee: 18:24

And traditionally, writing as we get into higher and higher levels, we have people that tend to be more autonomous states. So they are now the people who are right all the time, who are giving up the advice all the time, they are the mentors and teachers of the people who are winning. And it's a very dangerous position to get into. Because at some point, the universe is going to say, No, you're wrong. And, you know, if you've been if you've been, you know, God to so many people for so long, that doesn't come easily. So you have to

Lynn: 19:01

do. Are you familiar with Carol Dweck 's work of fixed mindset versus growth mindset? Are you familiar with this?

Lee: 19:09

Oh, no, I'm not. You're,

Lynn: 19:11

you're describing you're describing it to a tee though, because yours. Your own scientific research has found that some people have to be right, which is a fixed mindset. And other people want to learn more, which is a growth mindset.

Lee: 19:26

Do I want to be right all the time? Of course I do. I love to be like, I want to know that I'm right. But I realized that is not going to help me grow as a person.

Lynn: 19:39

And that's, that's that's the crux of the fixed versus growth mindset. And okay, you know, in my language I sometimes when I'm choosing to work with a client or not, it's also are they coachable or not? Because if they come to me and they want to learn, but yet they don't learn or they're not willing to be vulnerable, Then I don't want to waste their time.

Lee: 20:04

And their minds as though that's a two way street, isn't it? Yeah.

Lynn: 20:07

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's better for me to let them you know, go find a different kind of, there's a way to learn within a fixed mindset. But it's not going to be the way that I'm going to be teaching you.

Lee: 20:21

A good coach also, I find is also open to saying, I've taught you while I can. And this can be also in a really good way here, your student has just just sucked everything up you put out there like, like a sponge? Yeah, at some point, you have to say, If you love that student, and that horse and you want them to really achieve, you're going to turn them loose, you're going to say you need to go on above me. I've taught you all I can not. Yeah, that's not always the easiest thing

Lynn: 20:53

in the world. No.

Lee: 20:57

If somebody's on a rising star, right, if somebody is just you can see their fast track just to really fulfilling that potential. It's so nice to hit your hit your little wagon to their star. Yeah, instead of in a quiet moment going, you know, you need to go on without me now. And it's hard. But that's it. Yes, we've been there. That's a gift as

Lynn: 21:23

well. So you mentioned you know that you mentioned the 45 year old that might be you know, getting over a fear or getting back on the horse, as is my case, I was 59 when I had my accident. What what do you what do you how do you help somebody? Whether they know how to ride horses? Or they don't? How do you help them get back on the horse? And I don't mean physically beat up on the horse, because there's a difference between being on the horse and with the horse, if that makes sense. So how do you do that?

Lee: 22:03

I've written about fear and writing a lot. It's kind of a, it's because it's an ongoing thing. We're never ever going to be done. I think to begin with, there are a lot of people writing without the right support system. They maybe don't realize that. But when you are getting back into horses after after decades away, you are going to be helped so greatly if you find a guiding light that knows there's stuff that is currently involved in the horse industry that knows where the good horses are, that knows where the good group of people is that maybe you can join in, and some group riding lessons and whatnot. To somebody who has gone through these things and knows how to communicate what you need to hear. Getting back into writing is very difficult going it alone. Mm hmm. I find that if we are alone with the horse, as lovely as that sounds, it is hard to find the courage sometimes to stretch our boundaries to go where we need to go. And yeah, we can be very frightened if we're in with the wrong people. So my first thing is to find a safe and good coach. And the only way that a person can find that type of person is to be very, very honest about limitations like experience from long ago, sickness, illness, injury. finances can be intimidating because whether we like it or not force us to become a little bit of a lifestyles of the rich and famous. So sometimes right off the bat, we don't feel like we belong. And then finally, I say you need to be on the right horse. If you are overcoming any sort of, of of fear or lack of confidence. You are looking for a horse that is willing to step in and bring you that confidence. absorb your shirt without taking it on himself. Okay? That is That rules out most horses. Yeah, walking the face of the earth. And it even rules out a lot of very good horses who need to be an expert hands. So we might observe a horse that's doing everything beautifully, under a very confident, well taught rider and think that that horse would be good for us to generally the safe horses have a long list of beginner people that they've given their wings to and then they move on to another beginner rider or whatnot. So the finding the right horse is allied to finding the right person to teach you Once those two things are in place, I think that our confidence just comes back by leaps and bounds. It just it just floods us and overwhelms us the quickness with which we recognize that we are safe. You know, that I've observed so many teaching moments on on on online, YouTube and podcasts and whatnot, where we practice our breathing and our responses in fear situations. That might help. But to me, it depends very much on what that fear is based on, if I am afraid, because I am now going to be writing my dressage test in front of 5000 people. Which is justified, that deep breathing and talking to myself is going to really help me. But if I am trying to deep breathe my way around the horse's back to me off, you know, six times, and I know he's going to do it again. But deep breathing isn't going to help. I need to find the right horse. And I'm finding right now we have such a shame culture, that people are unwilling and afraid to admit that this is not the right horse for them, because there will be 10 people lined up behind them saying you did not give that horse a chance. And to me, that is no different than being with an abusive partner. That is really great socially. And everybody thinks if I've got a problem, now I am the problem. Yeah, I don't think that it is, it is good or right that and if this assess women, so particularly, are willing to repeatedly put ourselves in danger, because he just needs another chance, or I made a mistake, or, and so this requires such soul searching, and strength of character to be able to say I am with the wrong horse. Because there's probably somebody else who can do something with that horse, whether it's whether it's, you know, work on the ground in an educational setting for people or whatnot. But But I just see this so much. So many of us are with the wrong equine partner. And yet we are ashamed from ever being able to walk away from that.

Lynn: 27:34

So that's, that's a powerful thing, because you're connecting what most people don't connect, which is the shame part of that, which is there must be something wrong with me, as opposed to this horse is not a match for me. And it doesn't mean that and people are afraid of kill shelters, I mean, Kill Kill, they're afraid that if they let the horse go, nobody will want it or be able to do anything with it. And it'll

Lee: 27:59

be can and and they were the horses last resort or whatnot. That is possible. I speak with such hesitation right now. Because I know that somebody listening right now needs to hear this. And that there are people listening right now who will be angry about this. So it's hard issue. But if you can't, if the leaders in the industry can't speak up, and say it is okay to try again, it is okay to be safe. If it's okay to be safe, it is not one person's job to love something troubled better. Because that troubled horse requires a real particular skill set. Right? That that may be a beginner, or somebody who has come back from a long time. Or if that horse has hurt you. You're going to have a hard time getting your courage back directly on that horse. Very often we need to get our courage back on on a different horse and builder and I know you did that as well. Right.

Lynn: 29:08

I wrote before I went back on the horse that I had my accident on I wrote at least 25 horses.

Lee: 29:15

So it was it was a big build building your skill set. Building your courage knowing and you knew your teachers were not going to ask you something that you could not do, right? I did. Yeah, yeah. So I was gonna get hurt. Yes. So getting our courage back is so simple. We have to get ourselves in with the right people who want us to succeed who want us to heal and who will not get us on another horse that will do that to us. And the end the horse population those horses are very special. Those confidence building Professor horses,

Lynn: 29:59

those are rare. Are I've run across a few of those that take up my slot? Yes. And

Lee: 30:06

taking advantage, right? No, without taking advantage of it. Yeah. How many horses? Who know? Yes, some are so many horses know what you know, and they know what you don't know. And I observe my horses in large herd situations out in great old contracts of land. And so there's also a new common feeling that there's no such thing as the pecking order that pecking orders are fought for two wolf packs or hunting packs. And I read all this because I'm going half that people who are writing this actually ever sat with a herd of horses that are squabbling about something so wobbling about something, maybe there's only one place to get to the water. You know, or maybe there's, there's not a lot of really choice grass, which happens in nature, there is there is dominant animals, and they go all the way down to the poor hand packed ones at the bottom, but this is actually how horses live. So we don't have confidence ourselves. Horses are wired to step in and say, Okay, I'll I'll be the boss, all to you. And if it's if it's a particular sort of horse, his willingness to step in, and and carry the, the, the majority of the slack is kind of a gray area for horses, because so many of them aren't able to do that without taking more, though, you know, putting you in danger because of their decision making. Horses are not known for strong decision making skills. So it takes a particular horse and I just wish people would would would, would just understand that it's okay to realize when we are building ourselves out when we were coming back to horses, and I know so many women that are starting to ride in their 60s and 70s. Yeah, I salute you. But you need a fabulous caretaker horse. Yeah. Yeah. And they're not cheap.

Lynn: 32:19

Well, they can't be because what was what was put into them? You know, the training and the opportunities to show their decision making? Yeah, under somebody's knowing hands. And I, you know, one of my first teachers gave me that herd watching opportunity. Yeah, she had five. And many, many of my lessons before I ever got on the horse. We're watching them and beginning to understand, she says, I want you to see how they work with each other. And that will help you understand how they will work with you. Because there is a pecking order and you call them a handpicked ones at the low I have chickens. And all you have to do is go watch chickens to realize that's where the pecking order came from, because

Lee: 33:03

that's where it came from. 100%. And so yeah, wait, we're, we're debt, we're soreness, gaining on this new territory right now. In my lifetime, I feel like I drive a lot of gravel roads where I live, and if you stick with too much enthusiasm, you pitch Dale, right. So you're kind of always trying to keep your truck between the ditches. And in my lifetime, when I was young, it was showing who's boss. It was, it was, it was, that was our leadership was shown his boss, don't ever admit fear, get right back on and blah, blah, blah. There's all sorts of cliches about it. Then, you know, 1515 20 years ago, came this this other thing where we really had to look through things through the eyes of the horse. And we hung on our gurus words, that horses would never lie to us, they always told the truth. They they know they're live in the moment, blah, blah, blah. So we bought into that, so that we could never actually ever put pressure on our horses, because pressure was a bad thing. And you and I both understand, I believe I think that pressure is a part of living, it's what we do with it. Right? Exactly. As well watched. Now we've raised like two generations of horses now that can't have anything asked of them unless they offer it themselves and feel like it. And I don't know about you, but I don't know if I want to sit on top of that horse. Who who has to be I don't know sort of worked around and depending on the weather and how much wind there is and if somebody's putting a roof on the building next door So, to me, and that's actually where I came up with the motto I go by love and rules is because I came from that background of rules at all costs, you know, and the love thing where, you know, if we just felt love in our hearts breathed in and out and, and sort of moved the horse around the route pan, it would all work out in the app. So I've lived both of these realities, and I'm going, it doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for me, here is why I want to blend that somehow. I want to have some backbone, some intention, some some some little goals. And I want my horse to have some input in it. But I still think I want to be the horses, the first one to the water trough or the first one to salt. I don't want to be the one that's waiting outside the gate to see if it's okay to come in. And I think that's a danger that we fall into when we want so badly to be our horse and spreads and to understand them and whatnot. So so for me horsemanship has become a lot like my parenting. I will say to my children, do you want to wear your yellow jammies or your blue jammies? I can see on their faces. They didn't want to wear any challenges because they don't want to go bad, right? They're gonna go to bad. Yeah, they're gonna go to bed because I'm their mother, and this is what's going to happen, but they can have a choice of which townies? Yeah, what book they want to read. So So for me, the horsemanship has, has helped me with boundaries at work with the boss who dumps six inches of files on your desk, who just before five, or who wants to do a performance review late on Friday afternoon, so that you go home and cry all weekend? You're able to go to second, this doesn't feel good. You know, could we do this Monday morning? Could you be the one that has to sit on this all weekend and not me, if you learn to, to guess the old way, stick up for yourself a little bit. Yeah, and this is my blending of the the boundaries that come with the rules. With the woowoo beautiful feeling that comes to the LOVE Park, you've got to somehow keep a foot in each account. The how to do that's where it gets tricky.

Lynn: 37:34

When I love and root, you know, this is why I had to talk to you. This is why I did talk to you. Because when I read your posts the love and rules, which I've read in the introduction, and I saw the balancing act there I said, you know, we're using a little bit different words, but we're saying the same thing. Because the premise that I came to understand was very similar which and this was this was working both with Bruce Anderson and Lynn Brown, the two teachers I worked with. On one side of that tightrope there's four spirit intimidation. And it's sort of demanding obedience from the horse on that side. And it reminded me a lot of my corporate life. And on the other side, there is this piece that says, you're okay, and I'm not going to ever ask anything of you. And I'm going to make sure you're, I'm going to be all soft and cuddly with you over here. And that's a really good way to get run over and be a doormat. And I tried that also in corporate life, and I got read over and so forth. But but the thing is on both sides, we are not acknowledging that pressure is a natural force, nature offers pressure every day, whether it's the lack of water in the hole, or the look of grass in the pasture, or whatever pressure you want to call it. Pressure is a real thing. And we can learn to do something with it. That's very powerful for ourselves. And in learning how to do that we actually become better people and our horses become better horses, because we show them and ourselves that we can handle it. And that's kind of the premise. I think of my book, and it's certainly the premise of yours. That's what I've been reading your writings. That's why I think I've resonated with you on a very deep level because it's like, oh, man, this woman understands how to handle it.

Lee: 39:24

I do and I don't. I do a disservice if I get I get people thinking, oh, what would lead do in a certain situation? I ran out of knowledge and I lose my temper and I get tired. I get so tired. So I've dropped my ball to my husband always jokes. The next book should be called after horsewoman, which was my first book should have been called chore boy, because that would have been his point of view. He says, char boy will be the real story. You know, so I do try to let people know that well, I'm always striving to do something admirable. I dropped the ball. I say sorry. And I get on away. You know, that's,

Lynn: 40:18

that's the other thing is you're so what you could put all of those things under the category, probably not the right word, but you could call them mistakes. And you know, you're not doing it perfectly. And back to that shame culture you mentioned, I think we have created a bit of a perfectionistic culture that says, I'm not okay with mistakes. And what I think you do so beautifully in your writing is to say mistakes are human. And it's part of the learning process. And there is no shame in those and horsemanship can be very glamorous, and it can also be full of a lot of shoveling of Craps. Out of those out of the stalls or whatever place your chores are happening. Because I had for six months I leased two horses in a full service barn. But I've never worked so hard in my life, even still, and I wasn't doing most of the shoveling. I can't even imagine what it is when you've got the horses on premise. It's it's like having a bunch of toddlers around is what I've said,

Lee: 41:23

Well, yeah, I mean, when you're writing when you're writing six or eight horses or more a day, it's it becomes something that you really wish you had somebody hired just to catch them, grooming them and saddle them so that you could you had a chance to not you know turn into a greased spot at the end of the day. And of course the catching saddling and grooming is one of our big connector points. So that's a hard issue. But I wanted to say when you were talking about the shame, culture and mistakes, think about this. We would rather not do than do something wrongly whether that's our perception or not. But we also are very, very quick to throw that line of thought on our horses, which is why so many horses wrecks now, so I will babysit my horse I will keep a hold of him between my hands and legs. I will keep his mind centered I won't let him deviate off if I'm training in a pan or I keep him from from learning experiencing stumbling, falling making mistakes. But sadly, our horses don't learn how to process I always jokingly call it when the wheels fall off. So when we ride them with so much care and attention, which shouldn't be a good thing we're actually teaching them to get very upset if something happens. Isn't that the truth? So there again we have projected our corporate upbringing are raising you are always told more young to be a good girl. And we now want our horses to be good to be dialed in to be never deviating. When I'm looking my colts around. I am How can the rains to them? I am giving them a mistake to shy out to go the wrong way to back to do whatever. Because only then are they going to learn that I will calmly pick them up and we will continue on again. Does that require a lot of faith and courage? Yes ma'am. Yes, ma'am. But it's something I see with my students and with so many people we want to do it right so badly. That that we're now teaching our horses that if something bad happens if he gets his head caught under the rope when he's tied up, he goes ooh, this isn't right. So now he blows up. Yep. Needs a chiropractor bans everything breaks the halter. I mean, because we've been so careful. I let my horses go after I've written them in my yard on my lawn with their halter ropes dragging. Somebody said to me that's not good horsemanship. And I said, Well, maybe not. We're taught we're never gonna let the rope drag on the ground or get under their feet. But when he steps on that rope the first time and finds he can't jerk his head up, he blows up. Mm hmm. I would rather he learned to do that and just move his foot. Right keep beating anymore breaks the bridle reins or hit me on the nose when this happens like I'm very aware of. There's a fine line between staying really safe and staying too careful that we are dancing the rope once again. We women of a certain age, right They are so good at being maybe just a little too careful. We are really big on the what if something happens and I, I've watched this because I'm a new grandmother. So thank you Ruby's like 18 months old now. And so I'm watching your toddler around and everything and I'm having a fit because she's gonna hit her head on the coffee table. She's gonna trip her little shoe on the gravel and then it takes my daughter to laughingly remind me, mom, Hello, are you in there anywhere because I was so different when I was younger with my own kids, right. So I think as we age, we did get a little more careful, its nature keeping us safe. But we have to not get that mixed up with that thing you call the boat. That's a disease of perfectionism.

Lynn: 45:49

Right? And we do take care of that's one of the strange things I had a coach point out to me, it's like, you help too much you're taking care of and you think you're taking care of, you know, I've been called out with both people and horses, you think you're taking care of and what you're really doing is showing them they can't handle it. Because you can't handle

Lee: 46:12

the lawsuit. Mike micromanaged you, you know, had a boss who assigned you a task, a project. And then every step of the way, they're there, they're adjusting what you've come up with. And pretty soon you just feel like pushing your chair back and saying, take it, that's what

Lynn: 46:32

I do. It's like this is obviously something you need to do. Because, you know, I, I'm not adding any value here.

Lee: 46:40

I think it's I think it's a woman thing a little bit because we've gotten so used to make sure the kids have their lunch before they go out the door that their homework and their permission slips or sign. You know what I mean? It's yeah, it becomes up to us to see to every little thing and if we're not real careful, we start taking pride in letting that be who we are. Our identity. Yeah, I'm

Lynn: 47:06

the caretaker.

Lee: 47:08

I'm not going to drop in unannounced for morning coffee at your house, even if we're really good friends. Because I want you to have the chance to pick up your kitchen before I get there. Like yeah, that's how that's how we roll a little bit. And, you know,

Lynn: 47:27

one of my best friends when we first got to know each other, said something that was so freeing to me, she goes I don't want to see your house being all perfect because mine is it and I don't I you know, I want us to be able to like have a few things out, you know, like a normal house would when we see each other like a normal like a normal. Yeah. And I said okay, we can be friends now. Yeah, I

Lee: 47:48

know. There's a little part of us that that's that's a little victory though, right? We see somebody kind of dropped the ball and we go hey, well, at least I'm not that bad.

Lynn: 47:59

I caught myself more than once there and I've caught myself thinking that in the bar and looking at somebody else having trouble with their horse when I'm not

Lee: 48:07

100% 100% No Look at looking man and bridle on your horse. Ya know,

Lynn: 48:13

my my groundwork was a lot better than hers today, you know, and that's just

Lee: 48:18

whenever I get feeling that way, I know that it's time for me to start showing up in public with a colt with a 30 days. That's kicking the trailer and won't let me saddle him up without a little little production, you know, box or shiz out or something then I got okay that I needed that if I get going too many places on really nice broke horses, then I'm probably getting a little bit too worried about how I appear.

Lynn: 48:45

Yeah. Well, you you do a really good job of keeping yourself humbled. I'm, and I'm sure the horses don't hurt a horse.

Lee: 48:54

The horse is really how Yeah, yeah. And I'm really grounded by good friends in the horse industry to mainly women, as it turns out, although I've got some very, very healthy mentors that are man, but we can joke and laugh and sometimes get a little Snuffly. Tearful, about stuff that's happened to us that maybe we wouldn't be comfortable sharing with clients or other people. Because this is another thing that I have had to learn. People don't all have the right to know my most vulnerable staff. It has to be someone who is very healthy themselves. Who I can just certain things because when we this is this is for instance, like a Facebook rant out, you know, when you strike out, somebody's hurt you in a way. Yeah. You want to be careful with that. that sort of thing, because not everybody has the right to know this about you. You know, so So sometimes there are things that need to be sat with, so they no longer hurt before you share them, or you share them only with someone who will honor what it is and give it the respect the gravity it deserves and protect you a little bit nicey that is a little bit of a, of a trap that we have all fallen into when we're sharing, whether it be a podcast, or, or Facebook or any of our writing. You want to be honest, but you don't want to give away something that should be really, really held dear. Yeah, too much personal stuff about family or whatnot. I mean, if I think that what I'm sharing will help somebody in the long run. I'll do that. I got a huge amount of feedback, negative feedback once when I shared a post on euthanization. And it wasn't even replying to a certain horse. But to me that is a place where people actually need to go, what are you going to do when it's there? But we're in a culture right now where we're not talk about horses as livestock. But it's not. That to me, it's we all need to plan for and that last best day, when we decide that the horse cannot suffer anymore, for whatever reason, you know, that's horsemanship to me. Because so much beyond the Heads Up Hillstone part.

Lynn: 51:53

Oh, my gosh, heads up hills down. Yeah. Right del? LA, I love the idea of last best day say a little bit more about what that means.

Lee: 52:04

We have this idea that we want these horses or dogs whatever to go out of this earthly realm. With all the apologies given no anger, no resentment. No one F's No, I dropped the ball, no shame and anything else. So if it's for instance, I have a lot of ponies in my life who are very easy keepers we call them and they cannot just live out on green grass, or they get very ill they found or they you know, it's a bad thing. So they have to they live their lives on a permanent watch your wage sort of scenario. On their last best day, they're in my yard. They're eating grass the whole time. I'm giving them hand treats, hugging them, I'm kissing them. I don't care that they're going to be nippy tomorrow. Or that they're going to have too much they they're going out with with everything that I wished their everyday had been. And we have that choice to do that. Yeah. And when you've got an older horse, I've got a 30 year old horse in my life right now. I'm watching him because he's having great days right now. And I'm starting to think because we have really long hard winters here in Canada. Yeah. Am I and it's not about keeping him warm. Because you can go in you can have a blanket and everything but the wind blows cold and the ice is bad. Do I wait till we get so old and feeble that he can no longer walk across the ice? Yeah. So to me that last best day thing is a very mindful less do I do I want him to have his last best day on Earth while he was healthy and strong and running at the other horses or very personal decisions? So I talked about all of that. And I talked about how we can put our horses down and like fats. Who takes them away? What the? Oh, no, like, where do we dispose of the body? If the veterinarian has given them a needle, they can't just feed the hawks and other wildlife because now the horse is toxic. So yeah, it became a hugely emotional attack. And it taught me that that somehow again, we've somehow put our horses in a mythological and mystical area that that we've forgotten that. We need to be aware of these things. It's not making us callous or courting disaster by talking and planning. But a lot of people felt that it maybe was and I thought I'm learning a lot about society. What is acceptable has changed from when I was younger. So we're learning you know, we're I'm learning so much about what is considered okay, and isn't now. And I have to balance again, balance. How much do I go along with this? Because I believe it's better kinder? Or am I just going along like a sheep, because it's easier. We all have this decision.

Lynn: 55:24

The discussion of death with both animals and humans is a really tricky one. Because, you know, having lost both my parents and my dad in the last couple of years, those conversations about the inevitable, can be really tough, but they can also be so free. You know, because I feel like when you talk about last best day, I feel like for myself, if I remember that I'm not here forever, then what it helps me do is have a lot more best days. Because I'm not going to waste my time with nonsense and things that don't matter anymore. Because you know, I'm in anymore

Lee: 56:03

anymore is a really powerful sentence. When you say, what doesn't matter anymore? That means we actually can change our minds. You betcha. You know, you're right. Or you're not wrong. You don't have to keep thinking the same old way. Because you always did. You know, anymore. Is this a good one?

Lynn: 56:26

I like that. Yeah, it's very true. Because we can change our minds. And there's no shame in learning more and changing your perspective. I just wrote a blog about I'm learning, I'm taking flying lessons. And I just wrote out, I just wrote a blog about moving the seat high up one inch, changed my perspective, and I was struggling with with landings, because I didn't, the cowling is very high on the airplane. And I didn't feel like I could figure out where where the ground was. And if you're bringing a plane in on the ground, you want to know where the ground is.

Lee: 57:00

Okay. And that makes sense that,

Lynn: 57:03

just that one inch up, gave me a whole new viewpoint of what my runway look like. And my landings instantly improved.

Lee: 57:13

Wow, man.

Lynn: 57:15

You know, the it was it was stunning to me that, that, that one inch of difference. But then, if you

Lee: 57:22

metaphor for our life, though, right? Your life, right? Because we can

Lynn: 57:25

go from place to place and get a different vantage point. And actually one of my bigger, bigger ones, and I still am yet to write about this one yet, but I feel like I have to you, you earlier were talking about somebody who is a very skilled horse, woman or man on a horse where you can really see that horse come to life under their guidance. Yeah. And you know, it's easy to say that's brain and brain, right, that horse's brain is connected. But in one of my early flying lessons, and my instructor is 24 years old. And he's very good. And I was flying along and we're bouncing along. And I've done this before when I was in my 20s. But But I forgot kind of how bouncy and uncomfortable it is to in a 172 to be on a hot day. And I thought that's just the way it was. And she said, let me show you this maneuver. So she says I've got the airplane. And instantly the plane settled down. And I kind of went, Whoa, what just happened? And she said, Well, I'm making smaller corrections than you are. So I was over and under correcting. So I was I was responsible for more of the bounce. And I knew I was yes, yeah. And in the hands of somebody who could make smaller corrections. It was calmer. And that was another that was another sort of point of view or perspective lesson for me because it's it's like, okay, where else am I just kind of careening through life, trying to fix things as opposed to taking my time and being a little bit more early to the game in the correction if that makes sense.

Lee: 58:59

Less is more in everything right? Less more whether we're decorating or putting our jewelry on them. We go out. My mom always said Get your jewelry on and then take one piece off.

Lynn: 59:12

Yeah, the artist subtraction I call that I love Yeah, so

Lee: 59:16

So less is more. But I mean, I think that's a huge evolution in our horsemanship is to be able to isolate our body parts. Elba find stillness without tension. Because that is you know, that is a big deal too. And to be able to empathize with what our correction is on the other side. So you know from the plane's point of view, what little can you do and do as much as you need as little as necessary are sort of thing or something.

Lynn: 59:50

Yeah. Yeah. And knowing when a lot is required as well, you know, because on the take off one of the things minds Director caught me doing was being a little too gradual and applying the throttle so that it extended the takeoff roll. And he didn't want me to get in the habit of thinking I always had an 8000 foot runway. So don't don't add two or 300 feet to your takeoff roll when it's not

Lee: 1:00:19

wanted you to be a little bit more like a bush pilot. Yeah, I mean, when you're taking off the lake, it's only so long, right? Before you hit right trees. Okay.

Lynn: 1:00:29

Yeah. And so it's like knowing when to do you know, in that way, in a way, the Less is more is applied to, you know, sort of less waiting, like less like this is this is the game as you throw, you push those right along the way. And so remember that, so she caught that. And I thought, what a what a job, it is on her part to be sitting over there kind of out of control and having to watch somebody like me make all these mistakes, and then learn again,

Lee: 1:00:55

and again, as a teacher or a horse trainer or whatever she could, she could be micromanaging us so much that you would not be learning.

Lynn: 1:01:05

Exactly. She's really good at staying off the controls. And, you know, if, if the landing is a little bumpy, or that it has to be and she could have made that correction, but she wanted me to see what happened. But not not so much. Like one day I was flying and we went around, because we were going to otherwise hit the gear too hard. And so she didn't want me to like prop strike the proper something like that, because that's a replacement of the engine. So you know, it's just knowing how knowing that judgment of when to, you know, sort of like when to fish and when to cut bait.

Lee: 1:01:42

Yeah, yeah. And everything comes down to balance, right?

Lynn: 1:01:45

It all comes down to balance. So a phenomenal book about balance. I haven't gotten to read the whole thing yet, but I've read it. I've been reading lots of your excerpts, because, you know, it's not yet the book is. So say a little bit first, I'd like for you to describe for people, who do you want to be sure gets this book in their hands, like you wrote this for some people. And, you know,

Lee: 1:02:11

my? Well, my first and I know, we're trying to kind of wrap things up a little bit. So I'll be quick here. My first book horse woman was was written mainly for women. My age, not necessarily my experience, but I wanted to come really, from a writing standpoint, there was a lot of sort of technical stuff in it, as well as feel good, sad stories. Loving rules is different, because it is my life lessons that I've learned. Being with horses, and I'm now like, over five decades with these animals. And they're starting to, to show me that that nothing is by accident, or by chance that this is all the same stuff that I could have learned in many ways, just if I, you know, lived a little differently going in different directions. So I'm starting to see this is universal to all of us. And that maybe, maybe maybe there's something to be recognized and learned in this book, even with people don't ride if they don't own a horse if they live in the city or anything. So that's been an interesting thing for me too, because my stories, I want to write to people who ride. So that is going to get lost, you know, for people who've never sat in a saddle before touched a horse. So I've got to explain a little bit of maybe what my terminology is or where I'm coming up from, without dumbing it down for the people who have trusted me to write as a horse person.

Lynn: 1:03:50

Yeah. So it's a nice balancing act to

Lee: 1:03:53

that's a balancing act. Talk about the tight rope. So we've had people read and review the book who aren't necessarily writers. And just people that I thought Who Would Be not afraid to speak their truth? Yeah. So when you send your book out for reviews, you're hoping for good reviews. But you might not get them if you've chosen people who aren't afraid to speak up, right. So it's been it's been good and a lot of the stories are reworks of directions. I've taken on Keystone because where my posts are found is on Keystone equine

Lynn: 1:04:36

on Facebook. Yes. Thank you for can.

Lee: 1:04:39

Yeah, and anybody there's usually a daily thing and sometimes they're just pretty pictures of the field, good blur, but most times I try to get in on something meaty. That has occurred to me that day. Yeah, so I'm not writing as much my own journals since I used to I do Keep them up, I'll go and put a journal entry a couple of every couple of months or what's going on? What I'm struggling with what I know for sure. And then what I know for sure column is often quite short. But I'm keeping up that journaling that daily experience thing on online, because it keeps me accountable. Keeps me relatable to the people who give me the gift of their time. Every day.

Lynn: 1:05:24

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm grateful for the gift. And I know I speak for you have something like 42,000 followers. Is that right now? Do I have Yeah, it's a lot of people. And

Lee: 1:05:40

they're very involved people too, that you can go on your insights and see what percentage or whatnot. And they're, it's, it's humbling and exciting to see how many people follow who actually do Follow and Comment. It's great.

Lynn: 1:05:58

It's, and you know, you have a very, it's not only an engaged audience, but it's a respectful and friendly and not necessarily always in an agreement way, but in a respectful way your audience is, and

Lee: 1:06:11

that's been, that's been a gift that I've had to learn to give myself when people would comment, learning the difference between the people who genuinely disagree, but respect me as a human being and just want to put their ideas out there. Yeah, I'm all over that. I'm all over that you might not feel comfortable to me. But I'm all over that. The people who just want to shoot me down, no matter what, what I'm saying, They're there. They're committed to misunderstanding my words, twisting my words. Now, I come from a ranching background. I took dressage as a working student for an incredible teacher for four years, which has flavored my my training and teaching now, but a lot of my ranching background is not well considered well thought of with today's audience. This interesting calling horses broke. Yeah, my my my terminology, very different from what today is, to me a really well broke horses a horse and partners to me 100%, and knows the job and his gung ho to do it. But broke has become a bad word. I ride my horses one hand and in bits that are considered cruel by a lot of people. They don't see the years and steps and care and lightness and everything that I've gone through to get my horses to that stage. They just see me in that. And they say if I needed that boat anchor to stop my horse, I wouldn't ride. So hobbling. I teach my horses to hobble, because I've been miles of barbed wire fences, and I have been witness to horses who bled to death when we couldn't get the cut out of the cats. So when I've seen that, my reality is I live on miles and hundreds of miles of cattle country. We can't have safe rail fences here. Yeah. So my horses learn to hobble so that if something gets around their legs, they go. Someone will be along to let me go. And I've we've come upon horses caught in a fence with a huge pile of droppings behind them. So we know they've been there for a day. And yet there isn't a hair cut on their leg because we gave them that tool to cope with that stress.

Lynn: 1:08:42

Right? They knew how to deal with it. So that's what I that's what I'm talking about in my book with with tools. It's like, how do I cope with this because you're

Lee: 1:08:53

putting your toolbox. So a lot of where I'm coming from is is weird, bland. But I love the fact that I've got people who are ranch wives, Pony Club moms, people who volunteer to help with therapeutic riding, that tax cowboys driving people and combined driving people from all over the world, all over the world, not just Canada in the United States, but the UK, continental Europe, China, a lot of Mongolian followers, it's a huge horse culture. They're measured followers, the huge horse culture, and they push their Google Translate and they read and it's humbling and exciting and everything else. It's powerful. If you stop forgetting who you are, what your place is in this horse world. And so it's become really really, really, really good for me puts puts chills up and down my spine.

Lynn: 1:09:55

Well, it is one of the richest exchanges and pages On Facebook that I follow. Wow, it's sort of I mean, because Facebook has those algorithms it says because I read it yesterday. It's gonna make sure I get to read it today. And so it goes with my morning coffee in such a way not coffee, but tea because I drink the same tea you drink. No, no. Well I drink. Okay, so you posted on Facebook, somebody sent you the number t

Unknown: 1:10:30

tip number 10. virtues. Yeah,

Lynn: 1:10:33

more cheese, and I bought that and I was like, I love this. But I'm also a big Jasmine green tea fan. Okay. And then my great shout out here because I said Well, you know, I'm going to try there Jasmine green now and I can't drink anything else. i

Lee: 1:10:48

It's tea for serious tea drinkers.

Lynn: 1:10:52

It is so far beyond the other teas and I was buying some really high quality tea before. No, I I buy that step by the pound.

Lee: 1:11:02

It's tea for tea snobs. So I can't drink like we in Canada we have a kind of tea called red rose tea and it's the kind of tea they they dip in your warm water and your mug at truckstops and stuff. And so I use that for soaking my horse's cuts now always because the tannins in this tea really draws out infection and bad stuff. But I do not drink red rose tea myself.

Lynn: 1:11:32

Well, the merchant is outstanding. And I and that was one of the first things I think I just started finding you when that when I saw that post, and it's well over a year that I've been following you for a couple years now I've been I've been following you and just every day, it's just a little bit of goodness. So for those of you listening, if you aren't even on Facebook, you don't have to go post on Facebook, but you can sure read and pick some great things. And Lima claims. Keystone equine is one of the top so that is worth going to hear is there anything else that you would want the listeners to know where you get, they get a chance to hear your voice as horse people. And I think we've kind of focus a little bit on the folks that are not the kids anymore, but the ones that may be getting over a fear or getting back on the horse or, or you know, there's two kinds of getting back on the horse by the way, there's the 40 year like I was get back on the horse because I haven't written and then there's the getting back on the horse because I've fallen and I've got it yeah.

Lee: 1:12:37

What would you say? When when we are afraid and I talk I'm I really open about fear with horsemanship. I wit this my friend in a runaway carriage driving accident where she was thrown out of the carriage all of her teeth were knocked out she was she was unconscious. She was wearing a helmet and a flak jacket. By the way, her horse hit the wall of the arena so hard he instantly died. And that was a they call it stress stacking. Where where you have enough bad happen. Because I've been in many runaways over my lifetime with driving horses. That one instant made me go. I don't want to drive anymore. I don't think so now I've got I have a lifelong carriage driver. It's a very expensive discipline to be in. I've got the imported carriages, the harness the beautiful hats, like at the Kentucky Derby, all of this stuff. And now I'm not sure I want to dry. So I have to go back and go. And what happened in these incidents is what have I learned? What am I you know, that means driving appropriate horses instead of maybe dodgy or horses. But I want to say that I too have these instances and examples where it makes you rethink how badly you want to do something. I had a stroke when I was 42 years old. And I know what it is like to be standing there on that mounting block. so frightened that you can't swallow. You can't take the deep breath you're supposed to take and that wasn't even involved. That wasn't I was not hurt because of horses. I was just hurt. I was I was vulnerable. I was weak. I felt like I fell off the turnip card of life. So I know what that's like. And all I can say is be open about it. If you are in this huge Band of Brothers and sisters, if we ride enough if we live enough we're going to be hurtin units. We just need to reach out, get help from the right sources. The right horses. And we'll be okay. And what it does, what it does is it makes you more empathetic. Me going through these experiences has made me a better teacher. I used to think that when people came to me frightened, it was something I had to fix. Now, it's just something I need to listen to, and honor and wait out. And step in, if I see that that person is could could use some help, or maybe needs a different horse for a while. It has made me a better teacher. So feeling all of these things, experiencing all of these things as part of human experience that makes us makes us stronger in the end. takes as long as it takes.

Lynn: 1:15:55

It takes in your Yeah, this reminds me of what you said earlier in the conversation when you talked about lighting it sort of like the on the on the simmering on the stove. Let it just pass on through. Yeah, yeah. Don't bear there. It's real. And if you experience it, it actually that is the way it goes on through stuff. It doesn't get rid of it.

Lee: 1:16:21

No, no, we have this feeling that if we, if we don't show the horse, we're afraid that we're somehow fooling the horse. That's not we're not fooling ourselves. I don't know who we think we're fooling. And often if I'm in a dicey situation, I'll put my hand on that horse's neck. I'll take a deep breath, and I'll go, Hey, crap, but you know what we just got ourselves into here. I think I'm going to need a little help here. Very often the horse chew and kind of shake his hand and go, that's okay. I'm not taking that on. We're good to go. You know? So being around horses in the right way actually requires us to be more honest with ourselves. And ouch is not a hard thing. But isn't it a beautiful thing? It's a beautiful thing?

Lynn: 1:17:14

Well, you know, congruence is one of the most important things, you know,

Lee: 1:17:20

trying to get better. I can't think of a better note to end on, can

Lynn: 1:17:23

you? I can't, I cannot. So, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I can't wait to see where this thing goes. Because I know there are going to be a lot of people who want to learn from you. And they're going to want to buy your book. So say again, the name of your book and when it's coming out so people can find

Lee: 1:17:42

out a lot. All right love and rules is the name of the book, Life lessons learned with horses by Lee McLean. It is published by Red Barn books and right now is available on the Red Barn books website dub dub dub dot red barn books.ca. In the new year, it probably will be on Amazon. But right now we do we'd right now we do a special edition for people who are generally serious readers and like to feel a good paper and bindings or hand. So that's how about it. You would even invite anyone to Google P. Stoney corn, lien McLean, you don't if you're not on Facebook, you can get a lot of reading material, just what pops up Google. So I'd love to share it. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you for the opportunity.

Lynn: 1:18:32

Thank you for loving to share it. So with that. We will see everybody on the next podcast. Thanks for listening. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.