#56 JP Dyal: From Corporate Executive to Heart of the Horse

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:14

Well, welcome to the creative spirits unleashed Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host, my guest for this episode is JP Dyal. We met at the journey on podcast summit put on by Warwick Schiller last year in San Antonio. It was an epic event, as you've heard me talk about a lot. JP and answers one of those questions that has hovered over me of light, which is this, can someone who didn't grow up with horses become a true horseman? As you might guess, I have this question for myself, because, as you know, I'm gotten much into horses and making a lot of connections between horses and leadership. Well, JP embodies the answer to that question, as you will hear in this episode, not only is he a true horseman, he shows all of us just how the dark episodes of our lives are really the gateway to finding our path. It's worth paying attention to that. So here's some more information about JP He is not your typical horseman. He grew up in the Florida Keys, and was a corporate executive until he lost everything. It was then that his life was saved by a horse. And he talks a little bit about that in this podcast by the way, while JP has competed in many different disciplines, his true gift and passion is transforming the lives of horses and their people by combining his leadership development experience, along with his soft and lifestyle of horsemanship, so with his corporate background and focus on leadership, you can imagine that we had a lot of common ground in this conversation, it's really worth to listen, and I hope you enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, please remember to share it with your friends and your colleagues. And if you also enjoyed the podcast, I would love to hear from you with the voicemail button on my website at Len karns.com. But without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with JP Dale. JP Dale, welcome to the podcast.

JP Dyal: 2:10

Good morning. How are you doing? Well.

Lynn: 2:12

I am so glad we finally got to do this. You know, people will have heard in the introduction, how a little bit about how we met and how we got to be at this moment where we're getting to do this conversation. And something I noted the first time I well actually when I heard you on work Schiller's podcast, then I got to meet you in person at work Schiller's journey on podcast Summit, we got to spend a lot more time together at Rancho Mirage Marietta at the Equus Film Festival. But the question that came up for me is vulnerability, you have a brilliant way of showing your vulnerability without it being weakness. How did you come to become? Well, there you go. How did you come to be able to share that kind of vulnerability? And have you always been able to do that? Or is that something you've learned?

JP Dyal: 3:06

That's something I've always been able to do, I believe, a believable building, there were there was a time in my life. When I went through some dark, dark spots, my wife waving the corporate world away that that happens. But now, being vulnerable to me strength, it's about sharing your story. And laying the cards on the table. I don't like putting on a mask. I don't do that. That's why I have found myself with horses now. They do not put on a mask,

Lynn: 3:52

nor will they let you put one on

JP Dyal: 3:55

their intuitive. I'm very intuitive that person. And that's how I've gotten to where I am in life. And I refuse to not be ever choose to not be vulnerable, whether in relationships or whatnot. Because then I'm not being my true self, my authentic self. Right, if you if you allow yourself to be vulnerable, allow yourself to be in a position where you could get hurt, and I've been hurt many times. But I refuse to give up on it. Because it's it's your true self. Because otherwise let's talk about like think about a relationship, right? Your relationship with somebody in the first three, four months and the honeymoon period, you know, two, three months, whatever. And if you don't, if you're not vulnerable, then then you start becoming more vulnerable for months and then then that's when things fall apart. Right?

Lynn: 4:53

But that's because we do false advertising. Right we can we can be on our best behavior for more My daughter, and I talk about this a lot. And it's not just in, in personal relationships, but it's also in hiring people, because we talk a lot, you know, I've coached people who were on their best behavior to show me their best side, because their boss hired me to coach them. And we always say, it's the 90 day mark, we can tell. Because that's when they can't keep the facade up anymore. And the real stuff start showing through.

JP Dyal: 5:25

You got it. And thus, that's important to be who you are in the beginning, then the 90 days, things are getting better, not worse.

Lynn: 5:38

Yeah, I heard somebody talking about interviewing people for jobs. And he said, once I realized I want them, I try to actually convince them not to come. Because he said, there's two parts of recruiting, there's the evaluation part, and in the selling part. He said, But if you oversell the job, then they're gonna hate life in six months, because they're doing things they didn't want to do. So I tried to tell them all the things they're gonna hate about the job. And then as you just described, and that's what made me pick up on it. You're pleasantly surprised, because things are going to be actually getting better. Because it's never as bad as the sales job. If you're true, you're actually true to

JP Dyal: 6:15

it. And if somebody's not willing to be vulnerable, they have a fear they have a friend or something in their life, that's not allowing them to be like that. Why else would you put a mask on?

Lynn: 6:29

Well, you don't you know, it takes some self awareness though. And along with self awareness, I hate to use the word self confidence, because I think we've not got a great definition of confidence. But there's something to me, I think we all share the sense of not being enough, especially when we try to compare ourselves to others. But but our transformational self awareness work can actually help us recognize that we are enough, but that our societal programming tells us we're not enough testing in schools, you know, all that stuff tells us we're not good enough.

JP Dyal: 7:05

That's That's it right there, as we allow the El, el Psy world to affect us too much. Yeah, therefore, you know, first, so everything, we have everything inside us.

Lynn: 7:19

I so agree with that. That's my entire mission in life is helping people unlock what they already have inside of them.

JP Dyal: 7:26

And so there's a good way of saying it. So it's like, therefore, we're in our head, and not in our body. Which by that, I mean, we're not present. One of the things we talked about in horsemanship is you've probably heard a lot of writing in the felt sense, the feel, right? Yes. And you may have heard me talk about this, in one of my one of recent clinics, at equity Film Festival, but it's like, in order to be there, we have to be in that felt sense with our lives. So a lot of people in the logic that are on the podcast, are saying what does he mean by the felt sense, you know, basically, as getting out of our mind, getting out of her head and into our body being present in the moment is where the best way to explain it to some of the guys is just kind of like in Star Wars, right? The force, the force, right? We have to have that, you know, the ability to listen to the universe, the divine, yourselves be present. Therefore, we can be creative, we can follow our intuition. Because we ignore our intuition. We ignore that gut feeling so often, because our mind is in a way, and that's because of the outside world. And that's the beauty about our horses. They are always intuitive. They only follow their gut feeling. They don't have a prefrontal cortex like we do in that prefrontal cortex gets us in trouble all the time, because it allows the lie judge and most importantly, allows us to push through that gut feeling like when somebody's telling you, you shouldn't do that. But we still did. And when things get outside that felt sense for me, I start getting antsy. I do confront it. And I can find it in relationships, whether it's romantic or business relationships. I'm not the type of person where maybe years ago I used to be or just kind of sweep it under the rug and not want to have that difficult conversation or not, or just like, not want to create the conflict. someone the other day, when we were going back and forth on something, trying to say that, you know, we talk about polarity quite a bit in the masculine and the feminine part. And seriously, yeah, you're more in touch with your feminine side because you come up and you get upset about stuff. Then are things that bother us? And so if you look at us the most masculine thing you can do concerning it right then and there. Yeah. It's not sweeping under the rug. Okay. I don't want to pick that site or wait later, that that, to me is weakness.

Lynn: 10:19

Yeah, I don't know if that's a masculine or feminine thing, but it is a fear thing. I don't want to confront it now. Because I'm afraid of what will happen. You know, you said, I have to touch on this felt sense piece, because you and I both come from the corporate world. And I want to dive into your experiences. But I've taught hundreds of people, if not 1000s, of people in self awareness programs, and one of the first things we say in our programs is we're going to use the F word. And of course, they all think I'm talking about the F word. And I say, No, no, we're talking about feelings. And then I'll draw on the chart, a sine wave of the way emotions and feelings work. And I start making distinctions, by the way, between emotions and feelings. But we start with just feelings. And, and then I'll describe, you know, give me some words of feelings you don't want to have a lot of times they don't want fear or anger. But sometimes they don't want to feel guilt. They don't want to feel sadness, they'll name what we put down putting quotes around this negative emotions. So then I just say, Okay, well, what do you do as you take those, those lower level emotions, as we call them, and you cut those off? Well, as soon as you cut the bottom off, you have to cut the top off, because it's going to take the energy away. And I said, now you've got this smaller sine wave. And now those feelings feel awful, even though they're not as bad as the ones you've already cut off. So you cut those off. And next thing, you know, you're flatlined. And you're not feeling anything. And what I have found is 90% of the people in those programs, completely identify that they have forgotten or have intentionally stopped feeling. So how do you take somebody that's that far away from their feelings? A lot of that was me. How do you take somebody that far from their feelings into a felt sense, where they can tune in to the signals that they're being given that we call intuition?

JP Dyal: 12:15

was a fun one. Back, back when I was in the corporate world, you know, there's always way I viewed things was you're always building your replacement. And I've always

Lynn: 12:30

wanted your replacement. Building replaced Oh, building your Yes.

JP Dyal: 12:34

Okay. And, you know, for ever, I ran some large divisions of that corporation, very large corporation. And I've worked my way up that corporate ladder quite a bit to that age, I was, and it was helping people understand. And it was, again, it was like getting over their head and being prepared for their next level. The to be that leader, not be a manager, to understand the feelings of others, using empathy, something, something we don't talk about any really much, unless it's a death of somebody had a death in the family really don't talk about empathy. But helping people get in touch with their, their feelings. And being prepared for this, those changes are going to have coming up in their life, and getting them out of it. But basically getting them out of their heads so much. There's thinking so far ahead, and like, you think about yourself now, yes, your wife is getting ready to change. So they're prepared for Yeah, I can get him to relax out of it. Yeah. That's,

Lynn: 13:42

I mean, that is the goal. I found. One of the ways that I could you started with the word relationship, one of the ways I could get people to tune in then and sometimes I would do that actually, before we even talked about the F word in the program, is I would ask them, what percentage of their success was dependent on good relationships? Raise your hand if it's greater than 50%. And then raise your hand if it's greater than 60%. And you're, you know, you're nodding your head, because you go pretty high. Most people don't start dropping their hands until it's at 90%. They say, my job depends on having really good relationships. And then I would go to decisions and say, Okay, what percentage of your job depends on being able to make good decisions, that factor in, by the way, how people feel about things. And so that would be about the point those two things where people would start going, then I'd say what does self awareness have to do with any of that and they'd go, it has everything to do with that.

JP Dyal: 14:41

What I where I would start would be excellent with our significant other because they become a leader. And they'd start developing person who's going to feel that and impact the most, maybe their spouse or their significant other right, and then also prepare themselves physically, you know, in order, eating right, working out, to be prepared that way mentally. But then the one thing, we just have our relationships and these, these relationships, I'm going to talk about change throughout our lives. But you are the five people refer to 1000 times, you're the five people that you surround yourself with. And it's so true, I found that to be true for me. Yeah, and that in those five people change throughout your life, so I'm sick longer than others. But as you evolve, you tend to outgrow them. But people had to understand I can go on forever this, but as you're going up, and I'm gonna say, to like a higher orbit, some of the five people you've been around, that have been influenced you the most, will try to pull you back down to the revenue. They, I have

Lynn: 15:56

definitely found it.

JP Dyal: 15:57

I see that a lot. And I see that today, every day. And the people that I work with today in coaching, and then I like to always ask them, How does something how did that make them feel? You know, when we were making changes, you know, how's it gonna make them feel when some of these people abandon backward like, I remember when everything fell apart. As the mortgage company, I was at Ground Zero and working train wreck in 2007. Similar people I saw, I've been right there along my side disappeared, the people that showed up, but not the ones I expected. And I realized at that point, some of my five people weren't aligned I've grown. I call them my, my advisors. So I always had like five like advisors. But the most influential are the five people you spend the most time around. Because there's people with their energy influence you whether you realize it or not,

Lynn: 17:07

well, you just hit the other piece, because the other two parts of leadership that I always want to bring up with people are insight and energy. Because you're not going to have good relationships, and you're not going to be able to make good decisions if you don't have a way of capturing and developing insight. But all of that has an energy to it, it has a frequency. And we all know that we we know when we feel energized. And we know when we feel de energized, we actually can list are people who are energizing us and who are de energizing us.

JP Dyal: 17:40

And if you watch me at an event or after a clinic, or a big event, you'll notice this funny that you bring that up, it's so true. People put off an energy. And if we're intuitive, and we pay attention to our energy, you'll watch me I found somebody this other day that was working with you'll watch me around some people kind of detach real cordial and sort of questions. But, but I'll, my energy, I just don't feel it first energy wise, kind of slightly detached from that group. And then you'll look at your watch for a little bit later. That same event, same thing. As I'm closer to another group of people, person or why not? It's because of their energy, gap energy, whether we realize it or not. influences, we don't have to, they don't have to do anything, say anything like is act supportive, be supportive, and they're away, they might be, they may be supportive to the point they can be. But they're not in tune with their own energy with our own self. And I can tell that type of person who is who has that energy, who is in tune with that awareness, right? Who has that awareness with it? And then I can tell who does it. And it's just so for so long on the outside world has told us you shouldn't need to do things this way. Be in your head, outside world says be in our head that paid attention to that energy of the other people around?

Lynn: 19:17

Well, they asked a lot of times, then the message is if you can't see it, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. And if you can focus on energy, or you talk about it, then you're seen as it's not scientific, that's one of my bugaboos are, it's judgmental, or, you know, whatever they do, in the end, this is the Grand Valley, of course, but whatever they whatever they're doing, to actually kind of keep hold of you because, you know, school, I don't think was designed to teach us to learn, for example, I think it was designed to teach us to get our ass in the seat for eight hours and behave in in the corporate world. You know, Seth Godin has a great I think it's a TED talk called Stop stealing dreams. And it's talks about how schools were designed to get the farmers off the land and into the factories. And the school was the training to teach them to do that. And when I finished up in my, you know, when I was reflecting on my corporate experience, if you had told me 20 years ago that I was a factory worker, when I was a bank, you and I share this, I was a banker. If you told me I was a factory worker, I would have said, I was an investment banker, and whatever. I was a factory worker, I had a product to sell. And I had to do it within a set of rules with my acid to see eight hours a day or more.

JP Dyal: 20:40

The school and everything teaches you to conform.

Lynn: 20:43

That's exactly right. And to and to pass tests.

JP Dyal: 20:47

I can't remember who wrote it. And I need to go find this book. Again. It was broke all the rules. Okay,

Lynn: 20:55

I think I've heard that I've heard that.

JP Dyal: 20:57

It's, I'm looking for people under their personal Break, break rule. And I'm not talking, breaking the rules of what's legal, and ethical and things like that breaking the rules, rules of conventional wisdom and our conventional wisdom is but set out by the outside world. And

Lynn: 21:15

it's the breaking of the rules of conformity of you as you said, yes. Because you know, what's interesting is there were times even this was a lot happening in my corporate life, when everybody would be quiet, even though there was like this obvious like, we call them the elephant in the room. Nobody wanted to ask the obvious question, or might state the obvious fact. And yet somebody finally would break the ice and say, well, has anybody noticed? And then they finish up by finit. And we'd all go, oh, my gosh, thank goodness, somebody finally said it. You know, it's kind of the emperor has no clothes kind of statement. We all agree the emperor has no clothes. Why are we doing this project when it's clearly never going to give us the results we're looking for? For example? Yes. So in a way, we could see the people who were breaking the rules were the ones that were getting promoted. But yet, we still felt like if we broke the rules, we'd get killed in a corporate sense.

JP Dyal: 22:08

Yeah. But it's those who break the rules of conformity. That Excel because they're the ones more in touch with themselves. They see what needs to be done clearer than everyone else.

Lynn: 22:23

Yeah. This is the Gallup point. Is this first break all the rules by Gallup is that the book you were talking about what the goals are, but the world's greatest managers do different lay?

JP Dyal: 22:32

Thanks. Remember? Yeah, in a while, but it was influenced. Yeah. Yeah, it is. That's how I've always been broke. I never knew where that glass ceiling was. Because I didn't have a glass ceiling. I still don't know where I am where I am in the world of horsemanship. I shouldn't be. I'm from the Florida Keys.

Lynn: 22:59

That's funny. They don't have any horses on the Florida case. Right?

JP Dyal: 23:04

There many if they do, I've never seen one down there. Let's see horses. Yeah. But I grew up in South Florida, between the Florida Keys. And for Florida, Florida. I'm talking to people as they marry, we're all done in the hot tub. And they're like, waving at you. For the keys. Everyone thinks I've been doing this my whole life now. Yeah. And I've excelled way past people, other trainers and horsemen, that have been doing this so much longer than I know where that glass ceiling is because I refuse to have one. And we trap ourselves in that glass ceiling is usually trap ourselves in our head, and lock ourselves into our cell of our beliefs. And we're building. We're not the believer, we're building beliefs on old beliefs. And we're not looking inside of us. And we have everything we need here by yourself here. build out of yourself. Who cares what the other world saying? That's,

Lynn: 24:09

that is my entire mission in life is helping people find those kinds of beliefs. And I actually have used that language. You're the first person I've ever heard used the glass ceiling in this context the way I do, which is we all have a personal glass ceiling and it is based on what we believe to be true. That isn't necessarily true. Yeah, for example, you can't go from the Florida Keys. You could have said all along well, how how does the guy from the core florida keys that say see horses when I snorkel ever become a true horseman? And yet I know for sure you're a true horseman because I watched you at work. In fact, so much so when I watched you, I completely forgot that you had the corporate experience. And when you reminded me when we talked about like, oh, yeah, you do not look like you do not. You're not like you're you've lost all that corporate persona.

JP Dyal: 24:59

I don't know how Ever last and I'm not any different than I was back then.

Lynn: 25:02

But you never maybe had the corporate persona then. Because you're not letting yourself fall into that.

JP Dyal: 25:07

Yeah. And I mean, I did in the fact that, yeah, 23, sportcoat, 17 suits through. Okay. Land Rover that was on a golf course. Yeah. So I mean, I did, but I never let it change me who I was even my successes there. I've always been the same person, my entire life. And that's a pity going back to the vulnerability because I refuse to be rejected refuse to put on a mask? And I'm sure I did. And I know I did at times when I would have to catch myself. But it's, I treat everyone the same. And so often, there's, there's a big difference in you know, this between a leader and a manager. I treated whether I didn't care what level you were in a company, whether you were cleaning staff, or one of the vice presidents underneath now. You're I treat everyone the same. I didn't. Some people, I didn't let that arrogance part come come into me. I guess you would say, but it's so so I didn't really have the persona of your typical corporate guy in the room. So he's, you're different? Yeah. I'm like, Well, yeah, I don't want to be average.

Lynn: 26:31

Well, and that might have been why you succeeded in in the experiences that you had, because it's back to that first break all the rules. way, because as I watched, and now I coach people at the most senior levels, and I coach people, a lot of times going from that, you know, manager and leader isn't exactly the best description of it, as you just described, but it's that it's going from from being a cog in the system to becoming an executive.

JP Dyal: 27:03

In the, in the manager, that has been the manager, the leader, that I do see, there's a, there's a big difference in in what's so cool now and what I do, and working with horses and working with people, you can see when someone's trying to manage the horse, and it's not gonna work. Yeah, they can make they can make the connection, because it's not going to work a horse and looking for a leader. Yes, horses outside the herd. They're looking for a leader. So now you have to learn to be soft. You have to learn to bring in others. What I tell the guys, I've recently retired from Sacramento sheriff's office while Horsburgh when I thought gentleman who were incarcerated had to train Mustang. It was really interesting. When I first took over the program, the whole time I was there. You know, we're working on a project, we're trying to figure out the flow of it with the horses and how there was there were grumbling wild horses around. And I'd bring them together and value their opinions. And they would in the beginning, they would always say, Well, Mr. Dahle, you can do whatever you want. That's not the point. I was like, Oh, this is a team I want. I want you guys, I wonder what what ideas do you have? And you'd be so surprised to how often I would take their idea over what I had in my mind. And so often IT managers who are afraid to ask their co workers and other people for their advice, because they're afraid of being undermined by the people underneath them. Like, that's, that's a flawed way of thinking.

Lynn: 28:40

Well, I'll give you another thing too, because I've had to coach many, many people through this belief. If I'm the if I'm the leader, is their language, not necessarily accurate. But if I'm the leader, I'm supposed to know the answers. So they don't know how to ask for help. And they don't know how to ask other people's opinions, because their belief is, well, Aren't I supposed to know? And it's like, no, I see. I can see just watching your reaction that question. You're like, How can anybody ever think that because it's so natural for you to ask?

JP Dyal: 29:13

Other people want to thank him, I used to tell him I say, hey, collectively, right now, I have a pretty darn good IQ. But collectively, right now all of us working together. IQs can be a hell lot higher than just mine. I might have some answers. Because I've been privileged to some knowledge that inadvertently I haven't shared and you just don't know about some of the other parts. But they, they the reader does not have all the answers. The reader builds a team that work together, grow together. So they can collectively make the right decisions. But in sometimes to do that, to be that leader in the corporate world, which is hard for people that the leader has to become the follower Yeah, exactly. And so they and that's what the manager can't, the person who's in a mindset who ends up being a middle manager their whole life can't get past. Because they want to manage things, they want to make the decision, push, push and push it through, even when it's done wrong decision is like, a clearly they have to see it, but they're gonna back off because they're gonna look at a weakness or they look at it as weakness, to ask the people underneath them for help. That's not weakness, a strength,

Lynn: 30:33

it's actually the definition of leadership. Think about it, if I'm running, the bank I was at it was had 100,000 people at a time, it's got more than that now. But if I could do everything, I don't need to ask for help if I'm the CEO, and I can take deposits and make investments and manage the balance sheet and deal with bad loans, and yada yada, I would not have to ask for help, but I can't. So the job of the leader is actually literally at its start the DNA of it is to start by asking for help, otherwise, you would just do it.

JP Dyal: 31:08

Yeah, we're not gonna get anything done. And then

Lynn: 31:12

you're limited, you're very limited, because you're limited not only by your, your time and how much capacity you have, but you're limited by your own belief system, and by your own knowledge.

JP Dyal: 31:21

And your so then I would still, you know, so I would work with people. So when I was building leaders there, so I did a lot of leadership development, even though managing mankind, when I said that worrying that was waiting, large parts of an organization, you know, had six people in them and, you know, balance sheets, you know, net, or net income state was $138 million type fund stuff. You know, it was still building leaders. And teaching them to get out of that mindset, to be a manager, be a leader, and get out of their head into, I lost my train of thought for half a second there, but it's like, going, I'm gonna look at them, I'm gonna follow them at times.

Lynn: 32:15

Exactly, because that was your point, you said, you know, leaders become followers. And one of the big insights I've had in the last few years is the idea of when I was getting back on the horse, learning to let the I was I was my job was to have the picture. But I was to let the horse tell me what to do, when to do how to do. And that, to me, was the wildest idea in the world. It's like, wait a minute, Aren't I supposed to like, push this button and do that, and then it's just good, the horse is just going to do what I tell it to. And boy, the more I dove into working with horses, the more I realized just how individual they are. And just because they've all been trained a certain way, each horse is an individual, and each horse responds differently to different energy and to different people, and to different levels of pressure. So I had to learn to let the horse tell me what to do, when to do how to do.

JP Dyal: 33:08

Yes, it goes back to what we started the very first beginning, I knew where I was going with it now, vulnerability, the manager refused to be vulnerable, the leader does, the leader will be vulnerable.

Lynn: 33:20

Yeah, well, by definition, leaders are vulnerable. And this is something else. I have, as I've worked with several people, more than a handful who were aspiring to be the CEO. And aspiring to get promoted. When they were in the space of I want to go higher in the organization, because I want more control. What I had to help them understand is, the higher you go, the more you are going to actually have people making mistakes on your behalf. And so you're what will govern how high you can go is the ability to handle mistakes made by others on your behalf. Yeah, and that's a vulnerability.

JP Dyal: 34:05

I used to tell. I used to tell them, I'm not looking for perfection. It's not going to be there. Right? I'm paying you to be right. I prefer you to be right, more than 51% of the time. Yes. But it's like if we sit there you keep aiming and you keep trying to just as scope on that right for whatever you keep aiming and aiming down. We've missed the whole opportunity. That's right. And you Bella, pull that trigger sooner and understand, hey, we might not have got it perfect. But we can make the adjustment.

Lynn: 34:36

That's that was one of my biggest insights I wrote when I wrote dancing the tightrope. This was one of the biggest lessons was, it's not finding that exact, I call it the balance point. Right? It is how willing are you to correct back towards balance? In other words, can you make those adjustments? And can you keep yourself from like over and under reacting? So You ended up purposing. You know, as opposed to actually like really continually honing and fine tuning. And what I experienced watching a horseman like you, for example, is you're constantly making those tiny adjustments because you're not afraid to make the mistakes. Well,

JP Dyal: 35:16

they're, they're good. That's right. It's like, making mistakes is not bad. And in the corporate world isn't that bad? People are so afraid of making a mistake. I'd rather you Let's go this route. Let's go for a hey, we made a mistake. How do we recover? I do. We can roll back, let's go back. But let's let's adjust. But the only way you're gonna get forward is you got to make mistakes, you got to fail. Yeah, and people are so afraid of failure that they can't get other and what they can't grow. It's all five times get up six, all six times, seven, whether it be in life, business, it's, you can't be afraid to fail. And one of the most important things is you cannot regret it.

Lynn: 36:09

Yeah, because what happens when we regret it? We beat ourselves up?

JP Dyal: 36:13

Well, we do. In some of the stuff, you know, we talked about in a minute here of how everything fell apart of the company, and I'd beat myself up for a number of years. But going back to the regret piece, if I made one decision different. I wouldn't be the person you're talking to. Now I might look like this, I wouldn't be the same person. So I've learned from my mistakes, from my failures. I don't regret a single one of them. Whether in life that people have loved to get to relationships and failing and been hurt and whatnot, or in the business, or anything of that. I don't regret it. Because it made me who I am today.

Lynn: 36:59

So in other words, rather than regret you integrated.

JP Dyal: 37:05

Yeah, I mean, it's important for people not to regret the guys that I've worked with in the jail, teaching them that it was powerful for him. Because it made us who we are. Yes, life could have been easier. But now, I'm going forward, there's a reason that rear view mirror in your car is the size it is the windshield, the size it is. Okay, think about that. Don't sit there, everyone gets in their head, thinks too much about what's going on past or hurting this person or hurt that they can't be in not being present, to move in order to move forward. When you're present, and get out of your head, and stop worrying about regret, and the hurt and all. And it's okay to hurt. We all do. But I gotta keep taking a step forward. life's gonna points throw a punch at you is how much of you can take without falling down?

Lynn: 38:10

Or when you do fall down, you can get back up.

JP Dyal: 38:13

You're back. At this point. I don't need dust myself off. Yeah, in what are you what you see me doing with the horses is the all the small adjustments you've seen me do? Are as I'm reading, I'm speaking to the horse in their language. And they're communicating to me and I'm communicating to them. And I'm looking for the change in the horse. Oh, I see that bothered, you watch the mouth clamp up, I see a vein pop up on his face and the heart rate just went up. I'm looking for the changes. I'm adjusting. I'm adjusting. And I'm pretty playing. Sometimes I hate using the word pressure and some of my clinics, but I'm applying pressure with volume backing off, coming back into you know, Banette just coming right at them.

Lynn: 38:58

Yeah, well, you know, they put pressure on each other. So let's make no mistake. I mean, pressure is one of their forms of language. And when we say pressure, what we mean is energetic pressure.

JP Dyal: 39:10

Yeah, it's whether I'm sending a horse off, or just a lunge, even at a walk refresher, but what I found that I've started using in some of my clinics, because if people aren't having been working with horses as long as I have, sometimes I'll use a word of encouragement because pressure has a negative connotation, or somebody that people that it's funny, like one one person I'm working with right now she's a large corporate executive. She owns her own company. And I can tell you right now, she in the boardroom confident she can apply pressure she's great, was the horse. She saw I get to see her true nature. So she has difficulty applying pressure with the horse If I change it and say that for some encouragement with a flag, it's easier for her to get it.

Lynn: 40:09

Yeah, I've had that word pressure has, I had a terrible, pretty bad connotation from it because of like you said, there's a lot of stories around pressure, right. And pressure does create a feeling as we started with the felt sense, pressure, you feel pressure, like you can walk into a room where people are feeling pressure, and you will feel it. Right, we know what pressure feels like. But what I see it as is neutral now. And it was from working with Bruce Anderson, who you know, from nature's view, and he would say, let it's not the horse. It's the pressure created by the horse that's causing you to get into what he calls tyrant mindset, which is really just beating yourself up over making mistakes. Right? Not being in the present moment. And I would go no, no, Bruce is most definitely the horse. So he has teeth, he has hooves, he has ways of hurting me. And he goes, No, no, no, it isn't him. No, it's the pressure. And when I could see the pressure, actually that way as a neutral, then the stories about the feelings would change. And I could calibrate much more effectively.

JP Dyal: 41:15

And you found that bugs you got out of your head and became more present in my body or shirt, the horse did not put the pressure back onto you. You relaxed.

Lynn: 41:25

And then Amazingly, the horse would the horses

JP Dyal: 41:29

are all about energy. Yeah, Hurley but energy when they can feel heart rate, it's six feet away. Yeah, they're all about energy is when you come in to go work with your horse. And we'll talk about grounding and stuff here in a minute. If you come in, to just go work with your Hill horse, and you got something bothering you. That horse is gonna feel it.

Lynn: 41:52

They're gonna, especially if you're trying to cover up the something bothering you, because they sense incongruence better than anything I've ever seen.

JP Dyal: 41:59

I think it is. Yes. I give two examples of it. One, I think Mark was shot. And I think he was when he came up with this thing. But think about a pond is clear, smooth water. clear as can be you can see the pebbles. If you're looking at the pond, you can see those pebbles. If you're inside the pond looking out, you can see that horse or take a pebble turns at that point, right those ripples. Now you This is stored division, they can't see that energy. So you approach that horse. And you you're holding things in your might be going through a divorce, you had an argument at work, you're having an argument your spouse, you're thinking about the grocery list, you get to go do later thinking about what you got to cook for dinner, you're thinking about all these other things, the horse feels out. So using breathwork, which is how Lisa and I started partnering up breathwork using that to get to breathe, and get yourself out of your mind and into your body and align your energy without force. And the way you take a breath and the number of breaths you take. Bring yourself down to ground yourself before you start working with that horse. I mean not not too long ago, I was getting ready for big Expo. And I was going through a horrible breakup with somebody who had just been this direct me. And I don't you didn't get to meet here or my broke pretty blue around Mustangs. Oh, I love to do rounds. And he's he's an incredible horse. I was like here, let's go up Friday. expos on Saturday, let's say here. Let's go brush up on a couple things. We're at my ranch. And I'm walking him to the arena. And he keeps lifting his head. He's lifting his head. And I turn around, like out of frustration like what are you doing? And I looked at my hand on that lever up. And I have a closed. I look up at him. I chuckled to myself. And I'm sad. I'm sorry about it. Right? Because everything that was going on inside of me was in that grip on that lever. And I never have a grip on that. Like, you know, I'm always real sauce.

Lynn: 44:18

Hold it like a feather normally, right?

JP Dyal: 44:19

Yeah, I looked next to me on my left would turn out that was at the bottom over there. Just turned him out. I said, Yeah, we have to have that awareness in us to understand we're at that point. Now that we have to let things go, let the thing flow through us. And that's saying don't feel it. Well, that's the

Lynn: 44:41

thing. What because the emotion you know, we were talking I was talking about the distinction between emotions and feelings. But the most important because to me, a lot of times labels emotions are just labels for the physical sensations that we're feeling. But if we could simply let them pass on through, then they will actually dissipate like an ocean wave on the edge of the beach. But if you hold on to them, they crash. If you go to a place that there's not a beach, but instead there's a seawall, the waves continue to just Crash and Crash and Crash and Crash. And that's what's happening inside of us. And we don't want to keep feeling it. So we just numb ourselves out. And we have a lot of ways to numb ourselves out.

JP Dyal: 45:23

It got worse, I knew Brene Brown back when I was going through all my hell. You can't know more than feeling without numbing everything. Well, that's

Lynn: 45:32

what I was saying on that, like, isolation, right? The sine wave. You're numbing everything. Yeah. Why the joy?

JP Dyal: 45:41

I'll explain to people from Florida and grew up on boat, when the tide goes out, all the boats go down. That's exactly right. So your creativity and everything else and your happiness and all the states you could have achieved. You can't get there because you have to learn on this gut. You have to be able to confirm things and understand half the stuff that we have going on inside us that we're afraid of things in our mind, in our mind, because we're in our head. Yeah, we have to let it go. Fear, the way that I'm convinced the way the human mind is built is to try to protect ourselves trying to protect the heart trying to protect, and all it is is fear. We're making up the fear ourselves. It's not really tangible.

Lynn: 46:30

Well, there's two parts of us, right, there's the physical part of us. And then there's the ego part of us, right and the true self, like the eight A lot of times the death that we're afraid of is that ego. We're afraid of looking bad. We're afraid of being professionally embarrassed, we're afraid of not getting what we want, or whatever, that's all ego stuff. But the survival mode of our brain doesn't know the difference. So it's treating the fact that you might look bad in that meeting, as as something that is literally life and death and you go in with a death grip on your pen. You go in with the determination. I'm going to make sure I'm talking about myself obviously here because I've done this many times, I'm going to make sure I show up well, or else all is all is over. And it's not. I'm not going to die because somebody gives me a dirty look in a meeting. But my ego feels like it's dying.

JP Dyal: 47:22

You know, the horse has saved my life. And the reason I'm doing this No. Oh,

Lynn: 47:26

well. So I want to hear that. I think we have to tell people the story about how they saved your life. But go ahead.

JP Dyal: 47:32

You never knew what ego was she really? Yeah. chuckling Yeah. My ego saved my life is kind of a joke. But yeah, we can't we have to write.

Lynn: 47:54

So how did he go save your life? Could you tell the story of a joke? Or what? We're talking ego a horse? Just to be clear.

JP Dyal: 48:05

So everything fell apart back in the corporate days.

Lynn: 48:08

Yeah. And you said 2007. That was the timeframe, if everybody can recall was when we had the mortgage banking crash, and Lehman Brothers and all those folks died. And

JP Dyal: 48:20

yeah, I remember being privy to part of the conference call when we were getting ready to tap the credit line the next day, and I knew everything was going to fail, I lost the bat. And of course, we're about three or four days, I lost about $3 million. All my stock options, were sitting at $47 a share, I think we're at 54 at one point and we went down to about $4 $2 A share crashed, things became really bad and hostile work a lot of musical chairs. You know, that's when you get to realize how many toes you stepped on by climbing the corporate ladder. And I believe I leapfrog people quite a bit

Lynn: 49:03

meaning that you got promoted over them even though they might have had more tenure or thought they had the right to be promoted first Okay,

JP Dyal: 49:09

so there's this nature and and you realize some things my person that I reported to manage I'm gonna call manager because he was he he and I had the attorney tell me to say inappropriate relations with my wife. Things got real personal Vita the turtle and ago he and I ended up ended up eating is that what?

Lynn: 49:39

Oh, that's never good. JP that's generally not considered good corporate behavior to beat your boss up. Ever. I you know, I just watched the movie by the way. This is where I leave you. Have you seen this movie? It starts with Jason Bateman is working for the radio personality and A movie. And so the radio personalities his boss and he catches the guy sleeping with his wife. And so all of a sudden he loses his job and his wife and you basically just described the beginning of losing your job and your wife, right?

JP Dyal: 50:16

Yeah, the roundabout sort of way. And I ended up yet the marriage in a falling apart. They were picking on me because I have ADHD. It sounds like you guys don't realize that's a superpower for me. Because one a more intuitive to I can outwork you guys. The way my mind can think and there's so much more. Anyhow, in get into that later. So things really fell apart, sort of falling apart. I'm counseling, I couldn't get over stuff. And so far home, divorce. Pride got in the way. I was beating myself up at a shame by beating myself up more than I beat him. And I couldn't get out of my head. And I kept beating myself up. I lost the house. I was everything. Staying in, friends, trailers. I mean, I went I my whole life torn down. And I ended up with this big Mustang. That was Umbro. And I'll never forget, the gentleman is a neat guy and Kenny Cooper, back in Texas, he was training the horse for the person buying, buying her from he broke his ankle on her first time he tried to get on. And I ended up there was something about this horse that's looked into her eyes, she liked in the mind, there's an energy, there's a connection. And the stork probably should have killed me. But I learned the trainer, mostly intuitive. And she became my reason why, before that, I would basically sit on that couch back when I had that other house, big oak trees sitting on a golf course right outside, and now they just lay there all day to stare at that. Terrain. And at some point, I would get up, go back. But I think I was so shut down. So beating myself up has so much shame. Tearing myself down. Because I wouldn't let things go. I was headed on inside of it. And then becomes ego into my wife. And she taught me how to how to be me again. She became my reason why. The reason why to get off that sounds reason to start moving forward. And I at this point in my life, I'm pretty. I have great parents, but they're looking at me going, you have so much education. What are you doing, that I was going through so much stuff, and not letting go not letting it flow through me. It wasn't until later. And again, this is when the people who show up in your life are the ones you expect. And I remember if it's a friend of mine from Iran, you know his whole family somewhere and he was born in California. And I remember after Thanksgiving one night at his place I came came back to the center of a rescue kind of jumping forward here. This is when I learned to let things go. I was like you know they had a nice big Thanksgiving. They had one new car and I remember coming back that night that I've rescued my two Mustangs sitting in and around them that they couldn't handle there wouldn't been a halter and whatnot. And I remember going out there and just taking bedding off my hammock. I'm laying on hay that has like a hay bale and big round bale that's kind of pressed down. This is lay there this was this big Harvest Moons gorgeous woman is real Chris Knight in Texas curious could be

Lynn: 54:39

you know I grew up in Texas so I can picture it really clearly.

JP Dyal: 54:42

Yeah, I just I just lay there to harvest moon and I just at that point so to let things go and here are two Mustangs and when I walked in there, they're laid down there looking at me like I'm a mountain lion. I am I'm a predator their prey animals. I don't know who I am. But I got to watch some of the most beautiful things at night. And it was about being vulnerable. I didn't understand exactly everything was going on that night like I do today. And I let myself be vulnerable. There's no way to look back at it and understand today. let things go. Let the tears out, say enough's enough. And as I did that, that night, when I hit that breaking point, and I happen to be in there with them, their pressure, the pressure, they were, that they had, staying as far away from me as possible changed from one of them laid down the first time about 70. From before that she was pushing hate towards me and giving me she pushing hate to me. And I'm going through the shorter version of this one, the long version of this storage on watch podcast.

Lynn: 55:56

Yeah. And we should refer people to that, because it's a cool story. By the way, I do have to note because we don't have as many horse listeners on this podcast. It is not a small thing. If a horse lays down next to you. It means they trust you. They don't lay down because they're a fight. Or they're really a flee, freeze fight animal. And so if they lay down next to you, that's a ginormous sign that you've let things go.

JP Dyal: 56:24

Yeah. Especially for a month thing. You're not gonna see him laying down on the wild by themselves.

Lynn: 56:29

Oh, no, a Mustang is a wild wild horse. Very different than a domestic horse.

JP Dyal: 56:34

So I remember that big red round laying down next to me. I'm just looking at this. It's mesmerizing. I'm under. No something bigs happening. And there, there was a big moment happening. But I don't understand the magnitude. I don't understand all the whys like I do now. And then the big bucks can she kept her distance that and I would doze off. And during the night, it was called my other members was all bundled up and had this big big pack boots on real heavy boots. I woke up at one point and I ever that sensation like when your foots falling, right. So you know, I wake up. And here's a buckskin down and I see picking up my right by my toe, picking up their mouth and then dropping it.

Lynn: 57:25

So this wasn't one of those bite up sensations we have when we're sleeping. You were actually literally having your foot fall.

JP Dyal: 57:32

She did Yeah, she did it on the third one, she kind of squeezed water most of the teeth caught my toes, kind of Langston, she kind of backed up the steps and then came, came back in and she was a real hard to she was the one keeping all her distance. And I was like, holy. And as the evening went on, like a little bit later on both from the labor side of me. And that's when I was getting back in tune with who I was. That's that was the breaking point. That was a change in my life. Where I let everything go.

Lynn: 58:16

How did you do that? Because I've always said if we could bottle the method for letting things go. I'd be rich, but how did you let things were You were just at rock bottom? Was it just you had no more strength to hold on anymore? What was it that let you

JP Dyal: 58:30

I realized Thanksgiving, I realized the strength I was holding on with was stupid. I realized I was doing it to myself. Why that night? You know being with Bob and his family. And it's just like a nuts enough. Why are you doing this to yourself? Why are you punishing yourself? Why? Step forward?

Lynn: 58:54

Make it somebody with somebody prick you or poke you with that or did it just it came to you as an insight. You just realized it.

JP Dyal: 59:02

Because I realized that wasn't being who I who I really was. I wasn't being what I taught in leadership development. So often it's so easy for people to we talk we can coach people I think when we get into the situation sometimes and I can get myself out of this situation, mentally is what I'm referring to. But so often we get to a point where we don't follow what we preach what we believe that you really believe the stuff that you taught.

Lynn: 59:36

Yeah, so you saw there was a big gap between how you were actually living and how you tell people basically and how you thought you would live.

JP Dyal: 59:45

Yeah, I separated from the world. Here I am in there. And I it's funny because I didn't know Brene Brown was back then I didn't use self help books because leather self help books I'm not real keen on because you know, they'll tell you go grind and grind and grind better than anyone I can outwork them. However, they don't address the traumas in your life. They don't tell you how to address those things are getting better in today's world with that, but it's finally said, enough's enough. Why are you doing this to yourself, you get it step four, it's that that's the hardest part, you're hurting, you have all these feelings. You know, but we want to hold on to a run, I feel it. That's fine. But you got to keep moving forward. And work through it as you go. If you don't, you're gonna go bankrupt. Like, you're going to destroy more your life, miss the opportunities of love with people with work to desist everything. And that's what the horses have taught me. When you let things go, the connection you will have with that horse is amazing when you can get out of your head. Yeah, stop beating yourself up, bad relationships, breaking ups, whatever it may be, gotta keep stepping forward. But it's the hardest thing to do.

Lynn: 1:01:17

Well, I have this is making me think of something that happened not too long ago, we were we like to go skate and sporting clays shooting. And I've always been, I've been a very good shot my whole life. And I didn't know why. But actually, ever since I had my horse fall on my right shoulder was where I broke the collarbone. I don't know if it changed the way I feel over there. Or if I'm more tentative, putting a shotgun up to my right shoulder. But I quit, I quit being very good, and started being really bad. And it was a big gap between where I was, and I was, I was so bad that I honestly I walked off one day we were shooting. And I was I was beating my shoulder up. And I was like, I'm just not going to do this. And I left, basically did the old tech take my toys to go home. So the next time we went, you know, I thought well, maybe I'll shoot better this time. And I didn't. And I had this expectation to still be such a good shot, to the point where my husband actually had to call me out. And he goes, because I was not doing it. Well, we were with friends and he goes Lind, you're not that much fun to be with right now. And all of a sudden, I realized the only problem I'm having is my expectations. Like, who cares if I hit the thing or not? No, there's nothing here that matters. Other than I feel like I should be hitting it. And I'm the one beating myself up. So I kind of took his words to heart and said, Okay, so the next time I wasn't, you know, I went up to shoot and it wasn't that great. But as he turned around, I said, You know what, I'm just going to embrace second. And I had the best time for the rest of the time. And by the way, I actually did shoot better. But but it didn't really matter because I was actually enjoying because I just let go of the expectations. Yeah, well,

JP Dyal: 1:02:53

you're gonna you're holding why keep talking about getting out of your head. But you did. Yeah, when a third I'm finding my my guess. And this short conversation is, you're probably tend to view at fear. Comparing that chakra and up through your shoulder, I'm assuming you're probably using a 20 gauge or 20.

Lynn: 1:03:12

I'm using my 12 gauge that I got when I was 18. So I don't like I don't like little guns.

JP Dyal: 1:03:17

So that that will do your word that is going to hurt your shoulder. But if you were to just walked up to that first day and taken 10 breaths, breath, breathe through your nose and a kind of for fill your belly, then your ribs, when you're holding the second release through that belly implode had this kind of gonna release it let the bellybutton kind of goes towards the back. So your lower back like a ridge claps then your chest here, then that about 10 times you would get out of your head. And then you would let's get rid of cam right shot right out of the box. You just

Lynn: 1:03:59

probably would have been fine. You know, it's funny, because there's, there's another connection to that, because I actually have to do that flying all the time. I'm taking flying lessons. Yes. And one of the things I noted as I compared it to my horse lessons is when I get on a horse that is you know, when I watch myself on a horse versus watching a trainer like you, a lot of times you can say the horse just looks like they know what to do. You it looks like the trainers doing nothing is the horse is doing all these amazing things. Put me on the horse and I don't even know how it was especially early on. I didn't even know how to do it. I couldn't get the horse to move right or left much less looks so effortless. So one day I was flying and you know, my job is to hold a heading and keep an altitude and at the same time manage the radios and if we're about to do a stall, do the stall or whatever she's telling me to do. And I have this amazing instructor she's 24 years old, so she's significantly like 40 years younger than me. And at one point she You know, we were bouncing around quite a bit as I'm managing all those things. And she goes, I've got the plane. Instantly, I thought it was the wind and the, you know, whatever in the, in the sky that was causing the buffeting if you will, instantly the plane settled down instantly. And what I realized is my tension that I was holding, was causing me to over and under react. So I'd get off of altitude and I go up and down, I'd get off side to side and I go side to side. She was doing the same thing, but my cheek making relaxed small corrections.

JP Dyal: 1:05:33

She was being interesting. And what's

Lynn: 1:05:35

interesting is it it affects an airplane, which doesn't have a brain like a horse does. See, I always thought Well, it's because they're connected to the horse and the horse understands they know what they're doing and blah, blah, blah. And yes, that's all necessary. Not necessarily untrue. It's true with horses, but the same thing happened with a plane.

JP Dyal: 1:05:52

Okay. You're a big water skier. Right?

Lynn: 1:05:56

I am. Okay,

JP Dyal: 1:05:58

so you used to compete, right? I did. So when you went through that slalom course. And you You did it absolutely perfect. Do you remember like everything all around you the with the shoreline? Do you remember any of that?

Lynn: 1:06:13

No, no, you're that's what I love about waterskiing. I'm Anna flow.

JP Dyal: 1:06:18

So when I'm talking about being in a felt sense, I'm talking about the human flourishing, where everything goes well. And we're like that with a horse. Or we're like that with life. Things like that happen. Yeah. And it's because you're well and present.

Lynn: 1:06:39

And to me, it's the mistake. So I had this amazing insight about waterskiing, there is there's one water skier in the men's world who has dominated in the last 10 years, like nobody else ever has ever. So it's name is Nate Smith, and he has run 41 off, which is the most difficult water, water for ski pass right now that men are running. And it's very hard. He's run it multiple times more than all the other men combined. So if you take the other 12 guys that have ever run that past add up all the times they've done it, he's run it even 10 times more than all of that it's a lot. He's very dominant, he came to skate are like, so I got to be in the boat watching him. And this time, instead of like doing the tourist thing and go, Well, I'm gonna video I decided to really watch him. What I noticed was when he would make mistakes, and believe me, he was making mistakes, you could see that he would look like he was going to be a little short of the ball or he got a little bobble or whatever. But I've I've been lucky. I've been fortunate to be in the boat with at that stage probably, of the top 30 Guys, I've been in the boat, probably with almost all of them. So I've seen them all. But what he what was different about him was he didn't seem to notice the mistake. What I noticed the way his eyes and his body language spoke and this is all happening very fast. Was he was just looking at what's next. Yeah. Instead of going because most skaters including me, there's this I have a bobble and then there's an OH SHIT. And then there's what's next right? But the oh shit moment. If you're going at the speeds we're going and waterskiing. I mean, my whole pass is only 19 seconds. Here's the 16 seconds, there's not much time. If you take that a moment to go at what I make a mistake and then come back, you've lost precious time from being in the flow.

JP Dyal: 1:08:27

You're, then you're gonna screw up the rest of your pattern. That's

Lynn: 1:08:31

exactly right. And he never got in his head. Never he just kept kind of thinking what you could just see him not thinking and one day I was actually talking to him about it. And I use the word feel and he gave me a knowing look like you finally got the secret. He skis by feel. There's no thinking. So there's no chance to correct about mistakes. Because in feel you're constantly adjusting. It's not a mistake, it's just a need to adjust. And you're doing those adjustments without thinking that's exactly it. The adjustments without thinking.

JP Dyal: 1:09:03

So we're like that with a horse. Rather I'm running a I used to do manage shooting as we think and horse does because you're that much in essence with each other need to think in the horse doesn't. So what is so madness you shouldn't you shouldn't you shouldn't have just said thing, because you're just going with a flow. Well, you create

Lynn: 1:09:27

a picture in your mind. I mean, you do create a picture and it comes through in your mind. But tell me about mountains shooting. What kind of bullets are you shooting in again?

JP Dyal: 1:09:36

I don't do as much anymore. I need to get back into it so much fun, but it's not actually a bullet. Everyone. It's really about the horse not the gun. Yeah, where you actually use a blank. It's a cramp. So it's just crimped at the top and it's just full black powder. So when we pull it it's a 45 caliber single action. Okay, I use a rubric for care of my myself. When we pull that trigger, just It's gonna come out like a spray more like I don't even know, right? You're just watching that balloon just keep your eye on that balloon as you're going by it.

Lynn: 1:10:09

And the balloon, how does it make the balloon pop up, there's nothing coming out of the gun

JP Dyal: 1:10:12

was is the black powder embers are hot as could be, and they just burn right through it. They burn out after about 20 feet.

Lynn: 1:10:23

So that way if you actually hit somebody, because I see I was thinking how you have bullets flying

JP Dyal: 1:10:28

like that. It used to be fun, we'd be in South Korea, we're in Vegas. And some people become downs who are just staying at their tail. They say, Well, let's go watch. There's not a shooting. We've kind of mess mess around with them. They would they would sit in and I say I could tell they weren't there. And I say hey, you might want to sit over the view seats over you're kind of right in line, you actually don't want to be right behind the balloon. And I'm totally joking with them. And just make a small time just playing around and they start to get up. I'm like, no, no, I'm just kidding. Because it burns out after 20 feet, or 22 feet. If you're lucky. If you get the wind behind you 23 feet out of out of a shot. It's gone. It just fizzles away, it says not an actual target, I mean a bullet go into the target. So it's nothing like

Lynn: 1:11:13

Well, I'd seen it on video. So I wonder but I want to go back. Because you you've said two things that I want to connect the dots. I actually when you were talking about my shooting, and if I had just breathed ahead of time, and you kind of took all of us through just a little bit of a breathing thing, which is sort of a form of meditation before you go. But you've also said you have ADHD. And so how do you connect those two things together? The ability to sort of get into your felt sense and to lead others into breathing. And use the word meditate, which is difficult for those of us with high energy and short attention spans? How do you do that? With that challenge of what you, you know, call your superpower of being having ADHD,

JP Dyal: 1:11:59

because you're so glad you brought that up. It's not always easy. But one of the issues with ADHD is things will just keep going through your head, what's going through your head, you can't get it out of your head. Something's bothered to go through your head. So one of the things I've learned or since I used to do it, and it was reminded not too long ago, actually by one of my best friends gentleman named Jim Barnes. He's working on trying to be a motivational speaker, somebody you really should have on here. He just ran for sheriff out here. He didn't win. But he was actually my captain way back when I first started at that wild horse program, Sacramento sheriff's office. It's an incredible guy. And he's like, like to me when they go questor disrupter. You know, I'm referring to I'm guessing,

Lynn: 1:12:57

what's the disrupter, which means something that causes that those thoughts in your head to come to a screeching halt?

JP Dyal: 1:13:02

Yeah. So mine that I like to use has to do with you ever see the movie for love of the game? With Kevin Costner?

Lynn: 1:13:15

Oh, I'm sure I did. But I don't remember movies very good.

JP Dyal: 1:13:18

So when he would want it everything just to fade out, he would say clear the mechanism. So that's one of the mechanisms. So I stole that from there. But it's like, clear the mechanism. And then I'll break in the way I breathe in. But it takes good 10 Sometimes 15 breath for us to come down and kind of reset our minds. Come down and get out of our minds, as you said, recess that word to get out of our mind and back into our body. And I'll get into my my head. You see me work with Lisa Calder, who was on your podcast recently. I brought her into heart of the horse clinic business i i still building and it's also a wonderful start. Because of her breathwork was I watched her do with the horses. And she'll, she'll see me in a clinic. And so the summer just put her hand on me for a second remind me to breathe. The breathing down, getting out of my head. So I can be present with myself into my body. That allows me to get into that flow state. And I can do that every day. It's not something that you just have to do every month while I do that every day.

Lynn: 1:14:45

I have to meditate. I meditate every single morning I have to

JP Dyal: 1:14:48

then for us what we were talking about metod meditating is the minutes meditating newer for me because I used to remember our voices award spot I asked like how in the world to somebody with ADHD is like 100,000 million thoughts a day compared to the average person? How to meditate? Saying I'm going to sit still. Think about that. Well, first off this method.

Lynn: 1:15:22

A lot of people think it's clearing the mind. And you know, it's not it's, it's being aware of your thoughts.

JP Dyal: 1:15:29

Yeah, you know, so when a thought creeps in the fact that that, okay, being aware of it, part of it, but,

Lynn: 1:15:38

and then letting it go right on by

JP Dyal: 1:15:42

like a little clown. However, still, that's not gonna be easy for somebody who's just have ADHD. So back when we were in San Antonio together, at the summit, we were all sitting around having cocktails for one night and suddenly came up, and I looked at everyone, and they were like, How the hell am I gonna build medicine? There? Sure. So guys, how am I gonna build medicine? I have ADHD, I'm going to be sitting there quiet. might last like 30 seconds before a thought comes in my mind. Then I thought I'm going to run off with that thought. It sounds like there's a person attending the summit in the audience, and she was there at the table that night with us. And she said, Are you? Are you open to trying something? Like this? And yeah,

Lynn: 1:16:46

that's always a loaded question, isn't it? Yeah, we're trying something. Are we about to play strip poker? What are we doing?

JP Dyal: 1:16:52

So she said, I'm holding one right now in my head. She said, you don't want a singing bowl? No idea what you're talking about? Yeah. And she's like, tomorrow at a braid? Will you try it with them. And it was really, really interesting. And I'll do it here in a second. It's like, so for me using a singing bowl. So I have something to focus on. And I'm pushing that energy around the bowl, like this, you can hear it. And that allows me to meditate. And I remember that first time when I first sat down, and was doing it with their, the pitcher real high. And she came to me and she's like, What were you thinking about, and there was something that was bothering me at the time, and she kind of stopped the ball. And this is an era specifying, when you just focus on pushing. And the second bulk was out of frequency, in your holding in your hand, feel a vibration come through you. And a lot of times, sometimes I'll turn the lights off at my place at night, in my bedroom, and I'll just work with that. And I'll breathe, breathe 1015 20 breaths and everything just kind of like and allows me to get into that into that flow state. And I usually have my singing bowl with me it's either in my, my truck in my office, or I'll go in, in between horses sometimes working with my office, Ben and just sit there in my truck and work with it. And it's and they'll just focus right with it. And I was doing a session with a gentleman named Ezra Morrow not too long ago. And, you know, life person session and he had me just visualize it. And he was just watching the change in me and breezy so that Singapore is pretty impactful for you. He's like, have you gotten one yet? We used to call her got me one for Christmas. And it's a big life changing face to meet to be able to meditate. Because when I came down from working with Kathy with that on that bowl, and saying that we found a place at the hotel kind of you could do the river, point out there and walk and come back down. And there's things like oh, Glass was the Son of God, we ate dinner together every night of the summer the autistic son.

Lynn: 1:20:14

Oh, Rupert Isaacson. Yeah, thank you, Jane pike and Rupert Isaacson Raboy. Getting a room like that was amazing.

JP Dyal: 1:20:23

Somehow he and I ended up at lunch for dinner every night together. He is so much fun. He's such a wonderful guy. Here I come walking through the lobby, and I'm like, gosh, guys, you're not gonna believe it. I just meditated for the first time. They're like smiling. They're like, shit, he's for real. And real. I'm like, shooting the singing bowl, then then Isaac's like, Hey, tell me about that he'd never done done that one before. So he was talking to Kathy at work, even told me he goes, I think that was the first time last year before and it helps us tremendously. And now. Here's a, here's a guy right now had a cowboy hat on.

Lynn: 1:21:13

I was gonna say it doesn't. You said you've got it in your truck, you know, we've did not fit the picture of your typical singing bowl, devo take

JP Dyal: 1:21:23

its licensing because when I'm working with them, and I'm pushing that energy around, it's just like a ball of energy in front of this mallet m&m pushing that is so you can see it on down here,

Lynn: 1:21:37

I've got one very similar to that.

JP Dyal: 1:21:39

The one I'm just pushing that around. For those moments, that's what I'm focusing on, everything else fades away, then a thought will come in, let it flow through me, I'm aware of it and just let it flow in and out the other side.

Lynn: 1:21:57

So that is what I call reaching for your tools. Because when I think I've missed our mistake cycle, it's reaching for our rules, which is the way we think the world is supposed to work. It's those expectations. But if you reach for your tools, what you were reaching for was your listening. And when you are when your focus is on listening, and in this case, you're also hearing because what I noticed about the bowl, is you hear the tone, but you recognize that it's moving through you, you're actually hearing it. And so now you're reaching for your tools of listening and hearing. And that puts you in a meditation, because you're not thinking about anything other than what's here in front of you.

JP Dyal: 1:22:40

Yes, yeah, it's, it's been a very influential part of this last year for me. And when I'm in that flow state, when I'm able to achieve with a horse is can only be can be very hard to put in words, it's just incredibly beautiful. When I'm able to be in a flow state. And that felt sense to make a connection with a horse on a level that is even more so than it was doing last year that was beautiful. Is is everything?

Lynn: 1:23:28

Well, you have no glass ceiling now. No, you have no glass ceiling. So every year, every day you're growing and on this journey, and it will continue to grow. And there's no answer.

JP Dyal: 1:23:43

And it does find those people in your life that help with that. And you never know where they're coming from. People that make you look at things, different perspectives. My partner right now with her the horse, brought her in. And Lisa called her brought her and for her life coaching and her breathing, working on the breathing techniques and ways of doing things with horses. I teach, I would add three and not to the extent that like she wasn't with the horses, you know. And so when I look at, we were talking about earlier, you know, there's five people in our lives that had the most influence of us. And they changed throughout our lives. She's had, by far the biggest impact this past year. Have her and I've worked in together of me looking at things from a different perspective. Yeah. Because I didn't get in my head. I'm not married. I don't have a family and I work a lot. I actually work with like I said, I don't work an hour.

Lynn: 1:24:54

Yeah, except for you do you do what's called work but you're just enjoying it. It's energizing to you

JP Dyal: 1:25:00

my day off, I still do the same thing. My assistants are like, you know, go home, go to sleep, because I'll work from five in the morning till nine at night. And that to me if that works for everybody. But, you know, Lisa was able to change my perspective and things that make me look at things from a different perspective that had an enormous amount of impact on my life, this past year, me being in the flow state, more consistently, achieving that felt sense every day, not just as the horses and that in this tiny house, just little things, and people don't realize, and I know she doesn't realize the impact she has in my life, just like I I've had on other people's lives, we don't realize, but it's an energy that we put out is the energy or the world around us, right? That is so important. It influences people. And that's what I look for in the people that I've surround myself around. Jim Barnes incredible person. Incredible. love being around him. And his family. It's about being around, we've been around the people in my life that have the biggest influence in this this change. Now, it'll more come in others kind of Yo, bro. This is just as it is this journey

Lynn: 1:26:48

we're on. It is a it is a journey. And I'm hearing that really clearly with you. And the question I have, kind of as I always like to ask my podcast guests as we close because the questions come up for them. Well, how do I get in a felt sense? And how do I learn to let things go? And how do I learn to breathe when I'm feeling a lot of pressure, and so forth? So, you know, well, what would you want my podcast guests to know about? What we've talked about today? What would you have in terms of either a piece of coaching a piece of advice, maybe a request of them? What would what would it be that you would have people take away from this conversation?

JP Dyal: 1:27:29

One don't regret anything. Anything in the past?

Lynn: 1:27:33

That by the way, Dan Pink wrote a beautiful book about regret and how to use it. Yeah, I don't know if you've seen that. It's called regret, by the way.

JP Dyal: 1:27:41

It might be to my half regret keeps us in our head. There is a study, I don't know if I can find it. People in their dying days, and the written interview. Before they regret. They're all every single one of them regret. Not things that happened in the past. But things that they didn't do. Of course, they held, they held, they held on set, they didn't let things flow through him, they didn't keep stepping forward. They let the outer world control. Okay, you're never going to achieve that felt sense, you're never going to get into that flow state. Or you're only going to for for moments at a time. If you can't let things go not letting things because I know it's easy to be different for different people working with white persons and that's what we're doing right now that harder the horse is I got set up a few years back. The horse is great for me. And I understand the horse quite often can be better for me than it is surely I get that. But the horse goes home inside the frame. And then we always say person, the person is a problem that people are the problem not the horse is not really true. The person's perfect as they are. It's a step of holding inside the traumas and things that they're holding inside that they're not letting go of. And they're trying to feel free and they're trying to work through. But they're, they're holding it on. They're not letting the gap. The reason I don't part of the horse so we can help people work on themselves with a horse because we're now working on yourself. You're not doing horsemanship

Lynn: 1:29:51

you have to you have to work Lisa said the same thing you have to be working on yourself. And when it's not you this is this is the beauty Something I have to put a punctuation mark on. The stuff that is in your way is not you, it is the stuff that was put on you, by others by other schools, by society, by your peers, by your colleagues, it's by our expectations, it is not you. So what the work it is to get rid of the stuff that was put on you so that you can shine through. Yes.

JP Dyal: 1:30:25

And the horse is so wonderful with that. Because the horse plus you know, when your energy when you're whining, and advise people, you know, so many serving my clients, you know, the things aren't going well with the horse. And I make connections, the horse revenues issues. And heck, I'll be in a clinic and I'll just take a horse of somebody. And instantly rules change. I remember one day at the jail guy, James Dearborn when the other guys are selling shovels a horse. So here, let me give you a hand I stepped in here. So let me see the horse for a second and right before I pick the lever of change this watch this to one of the new guys. Is I heard him say that. And when I took that we wrote St. James. And

Lynn: 1:31:20

that's just like with the airplane with me in a way. Because your energy on the on the leader off was very different.

JP Dyal: 1:31:26

Yeah, he's like, Did you see that? Okay, so explain it to you more to the guy. Yeah, it's enough. But I'll do that in a clinic and the horse would be perfect for me and do what we're working on. Hand the horse back to the person. Now the one thing that that person was handing me that horse as they're doing so they're telling me how he does this. He does this or she does. I like her in one year out the other? Because they're judging. Stop judging. Stop judging people. Yeah.

Lynn: 1:31:58

Well, our judgments are definitely one of those things that has been put on us.

JP Dyal: 1:32:02

That's the outside world. That's right.

Lynn: 1:32:04

It's not us.

JP Dyal: 1:32:06

Stop judging. Yeah, I know those guys in my jail program. I never judge them What better great guys are made bad decision is helping to rebuild their lives. And so whenever they handle a horse back to the person that goes along, you're so confident man, one another speak to the speaking to him in their language to I'm now in judgment. Three, there's something else going on. You look at your inner landscape, there's something going on inside you, you're holding something in the horse feels that it's not connected. I don't mean pull the microwave, mic microphone away anymore, when I say that, but it's as we get out of our own way, get out of her head into her body. become present, Mr. Horse. That's when magic happens. That's when things are beautiful. And a horse lets us know that. And that's what's so beautiful about working with people with horses, is that horse helps them realize when they have that alignment. When they're aligned energetically with that horse and they let things go. Yeah. And that is so important. You know, to get frustrated horse feels. Very, before we go into a stall, my assistants, send me the watch and they'll play take two or three breasts. Step in the still with a horse or out in the turnout. There are two more breasts with a horse right there and that horse's head will come down. And so relaxing as their energy energies coming alive. When I step on a horse when I like, step into the saddle, I do that same thing. Oh no. Take a few breaths. Even Even my best horses, and I got some really wonderful incredible horses. Yeah. I mean you get like that you you have that connection with the horse and when everything energy is aligned, you become essence of each other. Like one of the things I'll do in the animal communicator acts asked me the other day she said when you I was on the phone with her and I had she's like what did you just you just put something on its head. Yeah, I didn't know that was actually the real deal. And I thought we should name Susan Meat Animal communicators which things that I can believe that she was putting a blindfold on the fly mask with a silk scarf. A horse can see a thing that was said Wait the blank form the horse? What are you buying from the horse? That's the point of that. As for he and I become one, and his eyes, he's not see, we become one. And this is beautiful Lusitano showing this year and Frisco said, I've, I've done this a couple times. And it's this, that feeling that floats in essence with each other as we, as we get out of our own way that I've ever had, keep stepping forward, even in the toughest times, the hardest of times. It's so important to keep moving forward. If you want to be a leader, investor, the horses looking for us. That's what our spouses are looking for. That's what in life, we want to be that leader, you have to get out of your way out of your head into your body. Breathing meditation, those are going to help you get out of your way.

Lynn: 1:36:05

But I think the breath is so big because it's a bridge between our unconscious and our conscious and our conscious, right, these.

JP Dyal: 1:36:15

Yeah, I was just gonna say that. Of course I stole from you. Yeah, it is. It is a break from the, from the conscious to the subconscious. Right. But it's not just one breath. Yeah. 10 the breathing. And that's and that's where research has been so impactful. Is because if we all do it, okay, so myself, I'll catch myself I'll be working with a horse or in a situation like

Lynn: 1:36:49

we all are that is to stop breathing into contract is the most natural thing in the world. So the only thing that matters is that we train ourselves to notice it and go back and breathe and release again. And I do it all day long. I have sometimes I just, I used to beat myself up over it. Now. I just thought Oh, there I go again.

JP Dyal: 1:37:09

And Lisa and I are creating with her the horse virtual coaching to help people with horsemanship and breath work and things of that nature. So invite people to

Lynn: 1:37:22

Oh, good, because I was about to ask you how people can find you is that? Do you have a website at heart of the horse? Yeah,

JP Dyal: 1:37:28

yeah, we have a couple of websites. Part is part of the horse online.com, we're getting rid of lunch it, no videos on their blog on there. We'll have virtual coaching on their schedule of where we're traveling. You can also find myself for the horse, my horse training aspects and people who might come work on the horsemanship at JP dial horsemanship.com.

Lynn: 1:38:02

And that's d y l, yes, you're hearing this.

JP Dyal: 1:38:07

And then we created a couple Facebook pages where we're going in a group. So it's hard of the horse with JP and Lisa is the page, okay, we'll be posting on there. And searching opportunities you'd like. For people to understand how to work with themselves and their horse, and life coaching better. And when we created a group, and the group is hard, the horse and the cross intend to join in the same thing. And I invite people in there to share their experiences. And so it's a nice place for people not only learned but also to share their experiences along them along the lines of this type of training that we do. Working in that flow state getting to the felt sense with in life and with our horse. And whether, you know, for them to post in there, or if it's they're more than welcome to reach out to us at any time. And the email addresses are JP at heart of the horse online.com or Lisa, at heart of the horse online.com and both. We're pretty darn good at responding. And that's the best way for people to find us. We're we will be traveling this year we're going to Michigan, Ohio. We like to come out there to South Carolina. We're going to Homer Alaska this year. Can't wait for that.

Lynn: 1:39:49

I know. I know. That's when you're going to see Sofia and Tom right. Yeah. He's famous from the journey on podcast to being Tom here.

JP Dyal: 1:39:59

He's just He's so great. He's great. So we're doing Western states horse Expo this year. We just got back from Denver.

Lynn: 1:40:11

I saw I was very jealous of all my Equus Film Festival people that were in Denver together.

JP Dyal: 1:40:16

Yeah, and don't forget about Equis Film Fest and we are having actor Film Festival here out in Sacramento this year, at least a discern beautiful person with that. You and I got to spend some time there last year and other we're doing that again to be a little bit bigger this year. Okay, and now things couple things that we're doing but we're gonna be doing some big things with most things. In the film festival. It'll be at where I'm at today at the Marietta and in Spa.

Lynn: 1:40:49

If and by the way, for people who haven't been to Rancho Murieta or been to the Marietta and in Spa, it's just worth the trip. I mean, that that place is incredible. I loved that hotel. Yeah, it's

JP Dyal: 1:41:01

beautiful sitting here right now. And then across the street, basically we'll be having at the Marriott Equestrian Center, we will be having the the outdoor events for the Equus Film Festival. Fantastic. Is such a neat Yeah, so I would definitely invite people to look up Equus film festival as EQ U. S. S. Film and arts festivals, Facebook pages and website. Yes, and more details.

Lynn: 1:41:31

And by the way, if you're a filmmaker, if you're a grant, or you know, some kind of artist, if you are an author, if you are a podcaster you may because I won last year for both my book and my podcast, you can actually enter their competition and go out and meet other people that were in the same thing. I met so many cool authors and Videomakers and it was really incredible. So I highly recommend it for anybody that's interested in it, you know, just has to have a theme of the horse it's not it doesn't have to be all about horses. My my book guessing the tight rope is a corporate book about me falling off a horse and getting back on. And what that taught me about how to be a better leader.

JP Dyal: 1:42:15

Yeah, it was Film Festival. Just coming to the Film Festival and the people you made the connection to me if there's neat people from around the world. Yeah. And other trainers, just the horsemanship that you see from like my Cassidy and Skye percent of Amanda held it's just it's so wonderful distance be there real lesson fear there last year. And then is things like, like that. It's, it's great.

Lynn: 1:42:44

It's it was it was really awesome. I encourage people to to check it out. And I just have to thank you so much for taking the time today and making it work for for yourself to be able to have this conversation JP I'm gonna, as I always say to people, I'm on a podcast Hi, Haftar we have a conversation.

JP Dyal: 1:43:03

So thank you, this is a lot of fun. Didn't know exactly where we were gonna go today. But it's fun. Yeah, it's always a fun conversation with it is.

Lynn: 1:43:13

And for those of you listening, be sure and share this podcast with your friends and family and people who you think might find it interesting. If you are interested in continue kind of getting a continual stream of coaching from me the coaching digest is a subscription where I share with you coaching is like having a coach in your pocket, you can subscribe at Lynn carnes.com. And obviously, we've gotten all the information on how you can find a way to get in touch directly with JP to get coaching from him as well. So, enjoy this. Glad you were here for this episode if you stayed this long, and we will see you on the next one. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.