#57 Judith Manriquez: Dancing with the Essence of the Moment

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Judith Manriquez. more about her in a minute. One of my favorite things about doing this podcast is how it gives me the opportunity to meet new people from networks I otherwise would not be a part of Judith is one of those people I met through podcast guest Hannah Pasquinzo This conversation came at exactly the right time for me. Judith challenged me in this conversation to think differently, and immediately I saw her gift as a business mentor. She has a way of seeing possibilities that opens the door to whole new realities. It's really truly mind boggling. How our own belief systems can warp our perspective. Have you ever noticed that? It's incredibly helpful, at least for me, to have someone who can gently help me see things differently. My guess is that anyone listening to this podcast will take away a new way of seeing something as you listen you will hear her challenge some of the assumptions that we all tend to make. Here's how Judith describes herself. Judith Manriquez is a spiritual business mentor and visionary intuitive to intuitive women leaders who are ready to show up in their full power and gifts. With over two decades of experience in business and intuition, she's supported hundreds of women with leadership development, business and sole mastery and the refinement of their soul gifts through personalized one on one mentoring, advising and consulting. She's a Claire Cognizant empath. I don't know what that means, with a Master's in Public Affairs and an entrepreneurial heart who has worked for a mayor, the chairwoman of a major state agency nonprofits and corporate businesses as well as healers, coaches, energy workers, lightworkers, and hundreds of entrepreneurial women changing the world. She also founded a successful branding, marketing and web development firm during the.com era. For the last 15 years, she has run our own consultancy, when she isn't playing with and and other people's businesses, she spends time with her two college aged boys and 10 Girl and visiting new places across the globe. I know you're going to enjoy this podcast with Judith. Manriquez. Judith, welcome to the podcast. Hi,

Judith: 2:36

Lynn. So glad to be here.

Lynn: 2:39

I'm looking forward to this conversation. I just asked you, before we hit record, what your intention for this conversation was. And I got chills. Because what you said was I want to have a really good conversation that spreads but what you communicated was, and you might have even used this language, but something around how to have a connected conversation that flows. I have been doing this podcast for quite a while now. And that's kind of how my, my, my podcast conversations go. But what I've noticed is that that's a that's a skill in and of itself. And so many of the people who listen to this podcast are in conversations that make them nervous, that make them worried that they avoid many breakdowns or from missing conversations or having to wait until a conversations in a breakdown rather than a little bit of gap. So how do you flow in a good conversation? Do you have a way of doing that? Because I've already talked to you before and I know what we're about to have, it's gonna be amazing. How do you do that?

Judith: 4:04

Well, I like to listen to depends on who I'm speaking to, right. It's always relevant to the person but mostly it's showing up and listening in a really deep way. I like to be present. I'm more of a listener when I first start, like I just enjoy listening. You know, one of the things we spoke about when we were in one of our earlier conversations is that for me, I really listened for the energies between us and people. And so there's something about the context of the conversation and where someone is and where I am in the space and that's what I listened for. That's what I was listening for today. There's also like what what is the need of the moment? So there is a it when we come together and we talk there is a need us to is the wrong word, but there's an essence that wants to be expressed in that moment and can you listen for it and then dance with that for a little bit. So I think essence

Lynn: 4:59

the essence that called for in that moment. Yeah.

Judith: 5:03

Sometimes it's not what you think or what you want, because once is a very personal thing, but there's something in that moment that wants to be expressed, communicated, danced with, like, developed, evolved. And that's essentially what we're doing right. So we didn't come together with like, oh, we need to cover this problem, or we need to have the solution we are the objective is to produce a podcast, right? We're going to record an episode. But right now, it can go anywhere. And so what is it that's coming forth for the people that are going to show up and listen, what's coming forth for you that you want to bring forth for yourself? And what am I bringing to the table? So we're gonna dance that today?

Lynn: 5:40

I love that you use dancing, because of course, you know, I have a book called Dancing the tightrope. And the premise of dancing the tightrope, as opposed to surviving on it, or just walking it. Exactly. That's one thing, but being able to dance with it. You know, with that implies a little bit of fear. And that, I think about when what you're talking about, I used to feel in meetings, where I'd be with people, and this could have been in a nonprofit board meeting or back in my corporate days. Like I called it a little gray cloud. And I didn't hadn't developed my intuition much at that point. But it would be I knew something needed to be said, that wasn't being said, Oh, yeah. And it was kind of floating there, like a little gray cloud. And the question would be, would I say something or not? And then what happened when I did say that? How did we dance with that conversation? How did we dance with that thing that was just brought up? That usually something that feels a little untouchable? Just based on our silly rules that whatever silly rules we've I felt like we were playing with, not how do you define? Or how do you see that energy? Like? How does a little like? Is it a little gray cloud for you? What is it that lets you do located outs?

Judith: 7:09

You know, I think you probably have a lot more grace around that than I do. I took me a long time in business meetings to learn to hold my tongue. Before I'd say what it is that I was feeling or sensing or perceiving around the people that what was going on because for me solutions and answers show up very clearly. And quickly. I see the paths, I don't often see the obstacles because I see so much possibility. So I learned early on, I think I had a mentor at one point in time that said, Listen, you can be as direct as you are, it's just before you start the conversation, say something like, listen, I can be kind of direct, and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Or I don't want to get I don't want to turn anybody sideways. And as soon as you say that people are like they get into a place of where, okay, I'm more willing to listen. Or they get into a place of being willing to be more forgiving if I've just said something that's a little uncomfortable for them. So I do have a tendency to be a little bit more graceful with how I share things. But I have learned that when I step back from the gray clouds that you talk about, I'm doing a disservice to the person that I'm with. So I just make sure that I have enough grace to be able to notice their response or to feel their response, and then work with that. But I tend to be pretty direct. I will.

Lynn: 8:26

Yeah, I do too. Like, let's just

Judith: 8:29

walk right into this. And sometimes I'll say sometimes I can even feel when somebody doesn't want to have this and be like, Well, I don't know that you really, really want to talk about this, but it feels like we need to talk, put it on the table, and then let me know where you want to go with it. So again, really direct. But I think your question was, how do I? How do I perceive those things? For me, it's all knowing. So they kind of drop into my head. It's a very intuitive knowing. And it is always relational. It is always based on what the other person's brought to the table. I don't usually come in like even when you said what's our intention for today, I didn't come into this conversation with a driving desire to make sure that I cover this program that I want to promote, like, it's just very much about being present in this conversation trusting that that's going to evolve where it goes. So I I tend to enter meetings or conversations or work anything's in that same from that same vein, like what are we both bringing?

Lynn: 9:25

That's, that's a magical way to be I've learned but in a lot of the life where I lived in work and again, back to I spend time with nonprofits a lot now and just in all the like, sometimes just my daily life. It's hard to be present, when it feels like there's an end goal that must be done. We have to make a decision about the budget. We need to decide if we're going to hire this person or that person. You know, those kinds of decisions and a lot of time as we're moving through, I joke that my life is like a tetris game. I just am constantly fitting the blocks together, people wonder how I get so much done. It's like because I play Tetris, I know how to fit the blocks. So, so how can that's it to me that's a tightrope to dance on as well is sort of the difference between being really present to whatever is happening at the moment, and yet reaching a certain intention or goal of why we're together. So how do you balance those two things? Because I find that even especially like working with horses, which I do a lot now that that makes all the difference. Like you do get things done, but it's different.

Judith: 10:41

Not your questions are amazing, because it's causing me to take a look at the way I'm using that way I use my intuition. So you know, I said to my mother, when my intuition is a knowing sense, right, have a knowing sense. And one of the things that I'm really aware of right now is that all of us for the entire planet, all of our intuitions are developing. And we don't often notice our skills development in that in that way, but I tend to pay attention to it. Because that's what I work with, with people, all the people I work with have an intuition, it's important to know how they use it, because that's how you engage with the world. So your question is causing me to take a look at something I've done my whole life and how I can actually articulate now how that happens. So when you have a clear objective, you need to hit like, I need to balance the budget, or I need to we need to make a decision about hiring somebody. That is the desired outcome. So it's almost as though you're watching me, we're not gonna see this, but it's a further out like so extend your arm as far out as you can. Yeah. And then the, the journey that we're gonna go on in the conversation is going to take us there eventually. So I know that we're eventually going to get there, we're eventually going to get to the end of this podcast and have something produced, right, but I'm not starting there. And so when I'm working with somebody, or when we're working in a group capacity like that, for me, it is, like you said, it's almost like dancing, like how are we going to weave our way there without being entirely focused on there, because every moment along the way, we've got to address the issues, we have this conflict, because people don't want this particular line item in the budget. Okay, let's, let's unravel that one, with the ultimate goal being not only getting the budget, out the door, but then beyond that is the greater well being for us and for the company, or the whatever. To me, it's the one that's even it's the company and affecting the others out there. That's always the ultimate. And I think we forget that those those mini objectives that we have, are actually they're not the ultimate, the ultimate is a much bigger, larger purpose, plan, drive. That's how our lives live. Like that's how we live our lives where we're expressing something that's further out, we're looking at our our trajectory as a human soul is much further out than this little objective. And when you do that, when you can see beyond, then you can have less judgement about the pieces in the middle that are twisted as we go.

Lynn: 13:08

So the visual that's coming to me, as you're describing that is a picture that I would often put in slide decks, especially when I was helping teams lead big change. And it was called the intellectual path and the emotional path. Yes, and of course, you called it the twisted, but it's like, you've got to remember, yes, we could draw a straight line from here to this big thing you want to do be at a new system, you're implementing, creating a merger, building a new organization all together, whatever it might be, that may have a straight path, you can put a project plan on it, but there is going to be a lot of twists and turns between here and there. And you describe things like decision making and conflict and the emotions that come up, you know, there's always I take people through basically the stages of grief, you know, the Kubler Ross, you know, stages of grief, or they're gonna start with denial, and then they're gonna go into complete angst and eventually go to acceptance and then commitment. But those two paths, what you just described, I believe it's in those twists and turns that a lot of us get twisted up in our own heads. And one of the great things that I've been learning on this journey in the last few years I think of this as my pressure journey, or raising my pressure threshold is when I can take joy in the frame by frame moments and not beat myself up but break it down into the tiniest steps and actually allow myself to feel good about them even when they don't work properly. But the fact that I'm in it, and with it makes all the difference in the world. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about where we break it down into pieces where we're not going to beat ourselves up over every little mistake.

Judith: 14:52

Yeah, well, it is about not not beating yourself up but it isn't a mistake and see this is what we're shifting through it. And collectively, we're learning to not be linear thinkers. So we're conditioned and trained that life was linear and what we're realizing as, as we've gained greater consciousness on the planet, we are now dealing with a more multi dimensional quantum reality, which is so ephemeral for us to put our heads around, because we don't really understand what it means. But in truth, it can be simplified to when you think about steps going from 1234, which is how we learn to think especially when we're in corporate, we've got deliverables and those very left, right, yeah, and an actual plan. And it's very linear, it's very step based. But in truth, our existence is a quantum existence, which means that I can go from one to seven to three, and get there faster. Somehow, even though it feels like we went on a detour it wasn't it's, it's the capacity to see that we were so accustomed to life being so physical, the reason we are so linear is that we can see that if I put one brick on top of another brick on top of another brick, it's they're getting taller, and I'm building a wall. But when we're creating when we're creating something we want, it's not ever linear. It's and because of the energies we have available. Now the capacity to go from here to a miracle or to an amazing masterpiece, is because the journey isn't stepped up into involve what we call detours. And we judged as detours and we tried to erase them out. They are actually the creative process moving us faster to an end goal.

Lynn: 16:42

Though it's almost like you're saying sort of lean in to those little, I'm going to change the word from mistake to accidents, because those are like the accidental moments of creation is what I'm hearing and happy accidents. Almost sometimes, yeah.

Judith: 16:58

Well, yes. And think about the difference between your life like let's say your family life, something that's more personal versus something that's more corporate and corporate, we're trying to grow a company, we really try to be linear, we try to be logical and organized and efficient. And A to B to C, like we just Yeah, everything about that exists. When you're running your life, you're living in your family. There is no, okay, my child has just gone from this step to this step that there isn't a linear, it's developmental and some kids take longer in some states. And then just I remember that every year transition, we had sort of a rhythm when the kids would start school and then they didn't school, go back and start school. And that rhythm, you kind of want it to be the same except every year they've developed into different little humans. And then the year didn't start the same way it was before and there's no amount of planning that makes that linear and stepped in yet we seem to have that expectation in business and corporate and it isn't we there's something more amorphous in growth.

Lynn: 18:04

There's something more amorphous in growth. And what is it that's happening when we're growing? Are we adding to, or subtracting from what's in our head? Or is it a little bit of both? In other words, when I say adding to I mean, adding the ability to do things, but also subtracting beliefs that keep us from recognizing that we can do things?

Judith: 18:30

Okay, so can I challenge you when we think of growth in that way where it's between one and two, A and B. Right? I want you to imagine if we plant a seed in the earth, and it grows up, and it's growing out, is it choosing between a and b, when it grows? It's not we're not ever making choices between A and B. Each of the pieces are developmental, they add on like at this moment, I'm going to take in the sunlight because there's sunlight and this moment I'm going to take in water, but it's it's there's never a we've convinced ourselves that life is about two choices and we're stuck in the middle. And when you say I've got two choices, and then I have 3456 More than I have more like a buffet of options.

Lynn: 19:26

So when you Okay, so this is really getting interesting. Yes, because what I'm starting to feel like is growth is leaning into not necessarily making a bunch of trade offs. Exactly. It's like that growth. What you described with a plant is the plant is just being the plant it's not thinking today I have to let go of my husk so I can become a seed. It's not thinking today I have to take in water and tomorrow I get sun it's just being the plant and as it is being the plant it is designed to grow. Yes

Judith: 20:00

That is exactly what will happen to all of us when we can let go of all of this, like beating ourselves up about making the wrong choice, or not being more attentive or whatever it is, it's usually self judgment or not taking action because we're afraid. Even in those moments, you're still growing, even when you're self judging. And even when you feel like you're depressed or anxious, you're having growth. It's just that we think we're not.

Lynn: 20:28

Which means if, if we don't climb it, and we don't be into it, we aren't being into our growth. So we don't even realize who we are.

Judith: 20:38

Exactly. So we will actually grow. So it's like being a plant that's been growing the whole time. And in your mind, you're telling yourself you're not and yet you've been great adding more leaves on and if it's a tree branches, it's been happening. And I think that's happening to us collectively, like we've been recognizing as a collective, that we've been growing in more loving ways in more expansive ways. And we're seeing one, two more possibilities, which means we've been creating more possibilities. But we haven't been seeing them because we're seeing them between, I don't have them or I have them. And we're turning and looking at the I don't have them. And yet there's this whole spectrum of Oh, I do

Lynn: 21:15

have it degrees. So are we robbing ourselves of our own joy? Because we refuse to see what we have?

Judith: 21:23

Yes, simplistically, yes, that's 90% of the time that I work with clients, we're working with that particular concept, I will have clients sit with me who are anxious, concerned that they've not made progress in their work, they haven't grown their income, they, they're dealing with crises in their business, whatever it is that they're dealing with. And all of the time when they present all of that, to me, they are at the same time presenting all of the opportunities that they can't see. And so that was a almost a retraining of how do you learn to see the possibilities? And then see your own worth? How do you shift? What you're seeing, because you can shift what you're seeing on the most painful actually start to fall away?

Lynn: 22:07

What is the first thing you have somebody in that state do? Oh, gosh, for every What? Is

Judith: 22:15

it the same for everyone?

Lynn: 22:17

It may not be because as you said something really operative at the beginning of this conversation, you said, I like to listen, I like to be present. And it depends on the person. Yeah. And so to some degree, there probably isn't a thing, although what came up for me immediately is oftentimes, because I have clients come to me in that state, I'll usually start by having them do a pretty deep gratitude practice. And that involves finding the things they didn't even know that were there. And sometimes I have to remind them, you know, it might just be that you woke up this morning. Good question. I

Judith: 22:56

always with my clients start with human design. And I know you've had Hannah on in the past, always. Because I want to remind them of two things, how they're designed to create because we all have a way to create, and then how to how to make decisions so that you're in alignment with yourself. And most of what I talk about is how do you get out of your way. And so once they know that, then I can take each circumstance they bring to the table, and be able to illustrate for them the way that they are being a powerful creator, the way their alignment with where they're going. So most of the time, what I'm doing is painting a picture for them of their real life with a different perspective. Because it's a different vantage point, get into the middle of a situation sometimes and you can only see your world. Yeah, they can paint their what they're seeing to me, and I can then show them. But do you see how this is relating to this and how this can take you hear and this. And when you begin to allow for more possibilities and lean into the way you're designed to create and make decisions. More of those things show up. So it's a kind of retraining, if you will, by I like to say to one client, okay, that's a great perspective. Now let's take it up to the next higher perspective can let Yeah, let's take it up to another like if your step you see all of this true, I'm not going to argue that it's not true. Now let's take a few steps up the ladder and step up here. And here's what's possible to be seen when you get out of that

Lynn: 24:27

whole different vantage point. That's with my clients all the time. I learned it from Ron Heifetz, who was at the Kennedy School of Government, it's up being on the balcony. And just the simple act of taking that different perspective. I don't care how much you are down in the turmoil or if you're in a boring meeting. This is a great place to use it. boring meetings is take that balcony perspective and see what it looks like from like if you're watching a basketball game, it looks very different from the floor than it does from the rafters. And you see things up above that you would never see.

Judith: 25:04

Yeah, yeah, you know what else is happening to in I'm listening for this, I'm really fortunate in that the people that I work with are all intuitive. And it's sort of code for me to mean that these are people who are very much into self reflection, and are often very much listening to their inner wisdom. So So for you, so our spirit. And one of the norms that I get, it's like, I, it's a default, I don't even have to talk about it, because it's built into the people I work with. But every one of them is has a hope and belief in a in the goodness and love of life. Like we're all here. And we were granted by birth, virtue of just taking a breath, a beautiful, happy, fulfilled, joyous, easy life, like that's. So when you can believe at the base underneath it all, that that's what you have available to you. And I'm just trying to figure out how to feel and experience more of that, and get out my own way, then that does influence a lot of a perspective. So when you have somebody like in my case, when I have someone show up, and that's their core belief that they really want to believe that that's my right. I can live a happy, fulfilled, joyous, right? Easy life. And my life isn't showing up that way. How do I get there? And that's part of the journey that we work on is how do we begin to see that you're living that life? And how do we create more of it and create more of it, if I had to try to convince someone that your purpose here in life is we have a good world, we have good people that if we're going to create a loving community, I don't, I don't know how to get to somebody to that place. I have people that are in that that difficulty feeling like I can't get to my happy life that I know, is available to me.

Lynn: 26:48

Yeah, I've, I've had experience with a number of people that are in that way. And actually, I think that's the majority of people. And frankly, I think we live in a world that kind of wants us to stay there. Because if we kind of never feel like we're enough and never feel like we have what we need. They're happy to show up and give us what we need. They're happy to give us the certain kinds of clothes, the best computer, the latest iPhone, whatever it might be, I say, let me sell you this thing. And then you'll have what you need. And that's an empty hole that can never be filled. And it's it's to me, it's, you know, I can't believe I'm bringing up the Wizard of Oz. But that's what's coming up. It's like the glass slippers. You know, the metaphor was you had it all along? Yes. And you just didn't know you had it? And and the question also is what she tried the journey, like, you know, would we trade our journey? Isn't that the point is like we've had it all along. But look how much fun we're going to have tried to figure out that we had it all along. Yeah, we can just see it as a, as a part a normal part of life. But Well, it's true. I

Judith: 27:54

mean, the truth is, we do have it all along. And it depends on where people are on their journey, right, you're talking and so I work with people who are on the journey who've made it from I don't know if I've mentioned this to you. But you know, Michael Beckwith wrote something way back like a long time ago, like in the 80s, I think and he wrote something that captured my attention. He said that, we begin our sort of developmental journey as thinking that life is happening to me. We're victims of life. And at some point, we decide that's no fun anymore. I don't like being a victim. So then we figure life is going to happen by me, I'm going to be the one that makes life happen. I'm in charge, I'm the powerful one. And you initiate do life through by me and potentially you get so exhausted. By trying to force life to do what you wanted to do that you're then go through another stage of growth and development, which takes you to realizing that life happens through me. So as I find my joy and happiness, it flows through me. And it's like synchronicities abound, that's the journey that I would like to work with people on. And then the ultimate is, and this one I don't understand, when you finish going through that stage, or if you make it through that you get to where life happens as me as like the ascended masters like life is, you know, it's as me like, Okay, I don't understand that. I didn't either and that's okay. But I conceptually feel like that is correct. Like it rings true for me. So when when you say is like the vast majority of people I do think we have a lot of people still in life is happening to them feeling like more victims. And I mean, we create schools that teach our kids to be victims, like you're subject to our rule too bad, so sad. You got to make it through. And then we get to corporate where we learn like, well, if I'm successful, I better you know, supercharged, do it hard, because then I can make money and my life will get better and then doesn't really and then you realize, okay, there's got to be another way. Because you're still believing in this sort of expression of soul right expression of divine love. Right? Right. And ultimately, we all get there. I argue that all of us all that journey is going to speed up fast, because our collective consciousness is racing. And we're dealing with people who just aren't going to play that binary game for sure.

Lynn: 30:11

Right? I've been noticing that a whole whole lot. And you know that by me game is that I think I know how to do things and can and therefore, I don't have to listen, and I don't have to be present, I just have to control the outcome. Exactly control, then I'm going to be fine. It's interesting that you using that language I didn't know about Michael Beth Beckwith, because this is just something I was playing with language from my website, and I just changed it to talk about pressure, because that's kind of become something I've really recognized is pressure is actually the thing that can happen for us. So at the very beginning of my website, it says, is pressure happening to you? Or for you? And then how can you use pressure to create to be the catalyst to your growth? Yeah, because I really don't think beautiful things get made without any kind of pressure. I think we can't get away from pressure. Yeah, there's a now I wanted to I and I remember, when I first started, sort of getting the idea of accessing my internal wisdom, to begin to understand that there was a me in here that needed to come out. And that my old controlling bitchy ways, were not working. I went completely the other way. And went from being I would say, overly tough and strong, to a complete doormat. So full of listening, and so full of empathy, and so full of compassion, that not only was I a victim, but I created a lot of victims around me, you know, because all of this stuff is happening to I still always had awful, you know, so how do you? How do you help someone step out of whatever their own internal victimhood is? Because I know, I had it for myself. And I, I think we may have listeners who are very much interested in this and still catch themselves, you know, caught in I mean, I do caught in my old dialogue, my my internal dialogue that says, I'm making a mistake, or I'm not enough, or I don't matter, or they are doing something to me, or that's all sounds good. But it can never happen in this world, you know, those kinds of things? I mean, I can think of hundreds of things, people would be thinking like that.

Judith: 32:25

Oh, gosh, that the only answer I have to that one, I don't know how you would even answer that. So when the only answer I have to that one is time, like consistent, consistent, ongoing affirmations, and reframing of something to where people begin to believe it and see it because it starts to happen. Because when I work with people that ultimately if if I'm working with them for a period of time, I can see from one month to the next where the opportunities have shown up, and then I can reframe back and be like, well, I know you're saying this now. But you remember that last time when you said the same thing, and then it's happening now, and you own it, and you begin to own it. So it's like a retraining, if you will. There's also something about holding energy of belief for people when they forget. So I can always see people going on their paths. And if you, you always have a choice, you can head on your path to your destination, like we were talking at the beginning, you don't know your path to your destination, and you could be having a good time, or you can choose to be like in the place you're in. And when you're ready to stop being in that place. Like we can start making it even better faster, but you're still going to keep going. And I'll hold the energy of where we're going. And I promise you, people can get there. While they're struggling, they will make it they will continue to create their dream and struggle and feel awful and have anxiety and think awful things about themselves. Or they'll get there while they're enjoying themselves. And again, I go back to human design, I'm like, Are you following your design? Because your life you're granted? Ease grace, Joy?

Lynn: 34:01

Yeah. All of us, all of us. The what you just described was the idea of a leader that has a vision. And there's lots of leaders in the organism in big organizations that have to carry a vision, right? And how to keep that energy of belief going while they get from here to there. And I've seen just magnificent things happen. And I've seen things not work. As you know, I was involved in so many mergers, where they would say yes, this is going to work to bring these two companies together. And then we'd show up on the ground floor, talking to the people on the other company going they're hating life. They hate us, and they don't want to do this, or we would be putting in a new system and everybody's like this one is much worse than the one we had before. It wasn't but they thought it was and or the system is getting rid of them. You know, so you have to stay through the transition, but when we're finished, you're gonna have to go for Another job. And holding that kind of energy of belief for people through that is leadership.

Judith: 35:09

That's what you just described. It is leadership. And, you know, you talk about mergers and acquisitions, I really do think there's something really different. We I was on a nonprofit board. And we were having discussions with seven nonprofits, and we were talking about merging. And ultimately, five did merge. I don't, I think that our motivation might have been slightly different than a corporate merger and acquisition. Because heartedly patient was always taking all of these because we had all of the staff and all of the board members aiming towards the goal of providing the ultimate service for the clients that we serve. So it was very, it was easier, I think, to take people through the journey of that transition, the conversation of yours, there's probably a big difference the conversation was, are we going to do this, we all think we want to, are we going to what will it look like? And will that ultimately create a great service for the clients that we're here to serve? So we were having a journey, and that journey took multiple years? Before we all came together? That organization that merged is rocking it still today. But I can imagine holding the vision the vision was for us, will this can we create something that will be in the highest good for all, always keeping our eye on the clients? Like can we put ourselves second or third as in as staff members, as board members, as funders, and look at. So we were able to create a really awesome experience. I don't think anyone who went at it through that experience, even the people who chose not to become a part of the merger, no one left with ill feelings. That's amazing. It was, but it's holding that higher vision that allowed us to do that. I don't think that corporations grant themselves permission to do that. Because there's another motivation in place. It's like, how can we benefit financially. And then when you put the financial benefit on it, you've subtracted out the human elements, and those companies would not exist without the people.

Lynn: 37:09

You know, I've I've always said, if you make money, your God, it will happily make you its slave.

Judith: 37:15

Here you go. Yeah,

Lynn: 37:17

right. And what I came to recognize in the way that a lot, not all, not all, but a lot of corporate thought occurs is, money should make you do whatever we tell you to do, and we'll pay you more money, or we'll use those kinds of art will take away your money as a lever, because that's all that matters. And when we're calculating your return on investment, were only calculating the financial side. And we're not considering the bigger picture, the community impact the employment side, you know, I drive down the road. I live in a fairly rural area. And there are a lot of small businesses up and down these different roads. And I know enough about business and economics to know that most of the people who have a business of 1020 3050 employees would probably make as much money for themselves if they just went out as a solopreneur, or doing something as they do to employ those people. But what they're doing is giving them not just money, but a place to belong and a place to be with other people, you know, and that matters as much as the money if the money was the only thing that mattered, they probably wouldn't have the business.

Judith: 38:34

That's what I did when I had my marketing firm was the same way. It is about community. And it is about the purpose and the joy of the work. And then yeah, there were times when I made far less than what I was willing to pay my employees when the company was having a hard year. Because you do keep in mind that this is a collective it is a community, we are all of us going to keep this thing rolling. So but that I think that's I think the bigger the companies become, the harder it is to make those choices depending on not that it's impossible. It's just that priorities shift, the guidance we receive about how to run a company well is different. In the expectations you have, well, I have a company and it's this big. And so then I should be making this much. And this is, you know, on the stock stockholders need to and there's just different norms at play in those systems. They don't have to be the way they are, but they are.

Lynn: 39:30

Well, and I often wonder if we were ever meant to try to work in systems have that kind of size. You know, because if you think about how humans have evolved over time, we were in smaller groups, smaller towns, smaller bands, whatever, if you go back way back in history, you know, we didn't operate in tall skyscrapers with 1000s of people, like most of the skyscrapers in New York City will have more people in them on a given moment than I have in my hometown. You know, 1000 people here It's a lot to take on when you're amongst 1000s of people.

Judith: 40:04

It is. But think about it this way, too. I mean, I wonder about that, because I like to believe all things are possible sounds like well, I mean, if you want to have a company that they couldn't be possible and still be nourishing for all the people involved, like, that's where my brain goes, when I hear those things like, Well, how do you make it possible? And then what systems do we have in place to determine if that's even possible? But I mean, if you think about the internet, it is a large system. And it is interesting, relatively unorganized. It's massive. So it's almost a physical representation of consciousness. And you can have all of these disconnected disparate organizations, because you can have like little communities within like, think about Instagram and Instagram, they communicate with each other and then choose to organize. So there is a way to organize on topic on issue on the moment. Yeah, and still not be this efficient corporate structure that has this linear hierarchical structure, which goes back to being linear. The internet is absolutely not linear now. So do we have order order? They're not if we measure it by a linear structure, we don't have order. But do things move? Yes. Are they quite as efficient? No. But do do people create sometimes more joy? Yes. Do they create more pain? Yes. I mean, but pain is happening in the linear hierarchical structure in a corporate too. So it's, I don't know what's going to happen. Like, I firmly believe that over the next 20 years, we're going to create systems that look completely different to our hierarchical corporate structures. And that's going to be a challenge to those corporations.

Lynn: 41:37

And then already, yeah, I'm already starting to see that. Yeah, yeah. You know, for example,

Judith: 41:43

yeah. Yeah. Imagine, I put this out because I know intuitively of every different walk of life. So there's people who are intuitive, who are, I would say, mine is more of a amorphous intuition. We have people who have different levels of intuition, which we can take away to talking about psychics, if you will. But imagine if corporations hired specific intuitives as communicators and sensors for the, the work that they do. So, you know, when I work with a client, and we're working on hiring some people for them, when I hire for somebody, I'm not just hiring based on skill sets, I can actually sense whether or not this person is going to work in that organization. So imagine if we have people operating openly with that level of understanding, you know, all Star Trek, where you had Diana Troy, who's like, what's going on behind the scenes? Essentially, there are people who have the capacity to know this in amazing ways. So when you start adding a different elements to the equation of a corporation, then you can shift things enormously?

Lynn: 42:53

Well, I feel like there are a lot of companies are really being challenged by a different expectation. And like I said, remote work is a very simple, and I call it that it's the same thing. But it's actually the unseen, because I think one of the reasons companies are and comfortable with that is because they can't see like the work is, you know, they can't see what somebody's doing in the background. And of course, I've been a remote worker since 1999. Since I left banking, I'm worked out of my house, and I figured out in a week, I would never go back. Yeah, I thought I thought I could never stand it. And within a week, I was like, Oh, I'll find a way even though we were on dial up back then.

Judith: 43:30

I know, I remember, remember.

Lynn: 43:33

But the idea of working in the unseen, which is what I think the intuition piece really brings to the table is so uncomfortable for people who think in logical, nonlinear ways. And yet, I don't believe a lot of scientists would actually say that that's not a part of what they do. Because scientists follow gut feelings just as much as anyone wanting to what makes artificial intelligence, so useful. And they had a piece on this on 60 minutes last night. What makes that so useful is that the machine without being tired can go through all the permutations that a scientist cannot like human, they said it would take to map a certain protein and biology would take one PhD for four or five years to do one. And they added up and said it would be a billion years and PhD years to do this work. But the AI can do it instantly, because it never gets tired. And it's going to follow kind of these complex rules. So I think a lot of times what we're doing when we're doing something out of sight is we're following those hunches and those gut feelings which we call intuition, which are really just our subconscious. I think just mixing a lot of things together in a nonlinear way. To give us perfectly valid information, if we've tuned in and learn to calibrate it, what I've learned is there's a big difference between a true intuition and a lot of judgment, like true negative judgment, right?

Judith: 45:07

It does require discernment, you have got to learn to listen at a different level and be outside of the little, little self. Yeah,

Lynn: 45:15

yes, as that has described the little self, like a thing you have tell me,

Judith: 45:22

it just comes out, like you've got the little self and you got the big self, the little self is the one that scared. Self judges worried about what other people think things things are gonna go wrong. Like it the world is limited. It's, you know, people are out to get me it's basically ballistic terms. It's the fear based scarcity based, everything that comes out of us,

Lynn: 45:44

okay, in my book, I call that people being in their mistake cycle. And the reason I call it the mistake cycle is because we, we feel that little thing that something's off. And because we got that same feeling when mom would give us the stinkface, or the teacher would come up and hand you the the test with that certain look that she had, and there was a lot of red marks or whatever, that those moments, we would get that little gut feeling that said, Oh, I'm a screw up. Oh, I've made a mistake. We I got to prove myself. Yeah, whenever I have to do, and we have complex and personal mistakes cycles. But then that's not the only choice we can make when we feel that if you can recalibrate that feeling that's what I've been working on for the last five years, is literally recalibrating that feeling and it is magical when you change it.

Judith: 46:37

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's it is it's it's like a breaking, it's for me, it's like breaking a habit. It's a habit. It's like your default at dinnertime. I'm like, like, for me, I love eating lunch chips. I like potato chips with lime and hot sauce. It's something good. It's an extension Mexican border thing. But for me, it's my comfort thing. So at the end of the day, we'll sit there watching TV, if I'm doing that kind of thing. And I'm like, lunch chips. I don't need them. I don't want them. But that trigger

Lynn: 47:06

of being in front of the TV says this is what I do that it's automatic.

Judith: 47:12

And it's all about retraining and recreating a new habit. It's correct. And that's just one you we create habits out of stress. We create habits in a work environment. And our physiology keeps us locked into them. Like you said, it's taken five years to break that habit.

Lynn: 47:27

Exactly. Yeah, no, I'm continuing to refine and refine and refine because what I've learned is there's almost like an unconscious story that goes with the feeling. We don't even know we're telling ourselves because it doesn't necessarily have language, but it has a it has an energy, it has a sensation, it has a feeling and it's locked up in the emotions. And I don't want to feel those emotions. So I'm just going to keep it like over there and keep eating my chips or whatever my habit is. I like chips too, although those loved ones was. I'm kind of thinking I need to learn how to do this. That sounds

Judith: 48:02

it's such a it's such a border thing in from El Paso.

Lynn: 48:05

Yes. Okay. So you were in El Paso, Texas, that were you?

Judith: 48:09

I grew up in El Paso.

Lynn: 48:11

Did you really? Oh, very cool. I my favorite little detail about El Paso is that if you flip El Paso over, if you flip flip the state of Texas El Paso ends up in the Atlantic Ocean.

Judith: 48:22

Oh, have you ever but yes, you're right. It is

Lynn: 48:25

that far out? It is crazy far. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to hear just a little bit about you and your background. Because you said you had a marketing firm. Yes. And I want to hear what your definition of marketing is, by the way. But how did you how did you go from growing up in El Paso to where you are today? Tell me a little bit about your history. Like how did you get? What was the journey that took you to someone who understands things on the scale, you understand them now.

Judith: 48:57

I left El Paso because I knew as a kid, as a teenager, I did not want to stay in El Paso. I was like there's gotta be more out there. And was fortunate to get a scholarship and full scholarship to go to Southwestern University, which is in Georgetown, Texas. And that kind of accomplish the goals at that time as a as a teenager, which was mom when it didn't want me to go very far. That was far enough.

Lynn: 49:22

It's still in the state, but that's still a pretty that's the Austin area. Right? What is that? Like? How many hours 678 hours?

Judith: 49:30

Oh, no, it's more like 12 from Austin to Yeah. Oh my gosh, back then. I mean, you can certainly make it in less time. But you know, back then it was like 60 miles an hour instead of like the 8085. You

Lynn: 49:42

know, but I know that's a good little distance. People can't it's a good distance inside the same state, exactly inside wild.

Judith: 49:52

So we did that. I came out till Georgetown. I had not really left El Paso. So it was it was a transition like I had never known anything to screen.

Lynn: 50:05

It was always the desert.

Judith: 50:07

It is it was so green, it was so wet. It was also I, Georgetown, Southwestern University had I think, maybe tops a 15% minority population, all combined. back then. So that was kind of new culturally. For me, I mean, I'll pass is pretty much all brown. Let's just, it is. So that was a difference for me. And then I finished college and took a look, we I ended college right when Texas was in, like the middle of the oil recession kind of time, and then ended up getting a job at a nonprofit, and decided in about three months that that was just not going to be what I continued doing and ended up going to get my Master's in Public Affairs because I love business. I love business. But I was like, Why do I want to get an MBA because already no business? So why don't I do something slightly different. Went into public affairs thinking that I would be a great city manager was That was interesting. And I would be if I could play politics. And that's what I learned in the process. I got my Master's in Public Affairs, ended up back, I worked for the city for a little while I worked for the mayor for a little while, and then ended up back in a nonprofit. And ultimately transitioned from that into a more corporate small corporate job, where we worked with large corporates, and we were doing straight up public affairs. So I put my degree to work in that regard. And then, after about five or six years of that went off to start a business with my husband at that time and a partner and we started a marketing firm, right, right at the beginning of the.com, in the middle of the.com. Era. So we were doing branding, marketing, web design and doing like cutting edge web work back in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was booming in Austin, aha. And, again, if you put me in anything that has to do with communications, back then I did not have a sense of my intuition. But I can intuitively tell what whatever client came in the door, what they needed, and how to deliver it. So that they were wildly thrilled, just. And we did that until the recession of 2008, when the company kind of fell apart at that time. And I by that time had three kids had my third child. And I had already known at the tail end there that marketing wasn't going to be my forever thing. I was just not, wasn't lighting me up. And then I went solo in 2008. And that sort of began my journey of what am I going to do, because I don't know what it is that I'm going to do, and continue to do kind of what I was doing and began to bring in a lot more of the human inner work that influences our outer life. And so now it's so intermingled as I went through that journey. One, I have a natural affinity for some reason that I bring in people that are outliers, if you will, they're just unusual. They don't fit into systems, things don't home, there's no ways and traditional systems don't work for them. So that was a general framework. And then within that I began to come across and be attracted to or attractive to intuitive people, like any dimension in all dimensions, there's service work, transformational work coaches, ultimate, when they worked with me, that was the piece that would come out. And we would address the interplay between the unseen world as you say, and see. And how can I honor everything, my unseen life is asking of me and still work in this real physical world? How do I make my business work when I don't feel comfortable doing the things that business says I should do? And it is affecting my physical body? Like I can't I feel unwell. How do we integrate those two things? And then how do I grow business in the middle of that? And now what I'm noticing the shift is as we get to this place is I'm seeing people who are much more comfortable doing those two things. But then how do I? How do I bring in this third factor, which is much higher expression of energy? I've got figured out how to be highly intuitive, figured out how to do this. And now I have this next thing that's coming in that saying, I really we really need to amp everything up. How do I do that? New Energy. So I don't have like this cataclysmic moment of like, Oh, it's just been a very gradual growth stage with the different challenges I met along the way. So we owned a marketing business and dealing with a staff of 12 dealing with the economies of the time. We ended up purchasing the historic building that we were in and we we moved there Business into it and then that that building had issues like that were inexplicable. So that's when I started looking for alternative options. And I found people that did energy clearing for the building. And things shifted, you know, it's these little things where it's like, I was willing to try something creative at the time. And it showed up and brought me opportunities. I did not have that giant awakening, where I heard a voice from the sky and then suddenly hearing, it's not that way. For me, it has been, as I become more aware of how my clear cognizance works, I'm now more aware how I used it in the past, and was unaware that I was doing so. And now I much cleaner, like you talked about if I can get my little self out of the picture. I can have a much cleaner awareness of the guidance being offered to me.

Lynn: 55:53

And is it when you say guidance is that kind of the third element bringing in sort of a spiritual guidance piece is that the energy you're thinking of because you were drawing like, you almost had a triangle as you were moving your hands. And I was trying to understand kind of how you see that third piece coming in?

Judith: 56:11

For like, so if we think about from a corporate perspective, we have the human element, like the passion part of it got the part that's passionate in heart, and then I've got the functional structure business that can hold the passion of running machine. The third part is like receiving a giant investment of infinite funds that get dropped in your lap. How are you going to integrate? Scale really fast, right? Okay, that's happening energetically on the planet. So we're receiving a giant investment of funds. And what that is, it's higher frequency energies, a lot more creative opportunities, easier access to those opportunities. I use the word Quantum. And I know that sometimes does not connect for people. But this idea that you can now go from thought to creation really, really fast if you're allowing yourself to believe in it. And so when you're intuitive, you're feeling that this is coming, all of us are feeling it. But when you've paid attention to your intuition, rather than feeling anxious, or depressed, or stressed, or a lot of what I'm seeing with people who are not yet claiming their unseen, intuitive skills, then you have your it's almost like you're amped up, ramped up knowing that there's something else that you're really needing to step up to the table. We talked about this a little bit at the beginning of our call, where it's like, oh, I have, I can actually be the happy, self fulfilled person, because there are no mistakes. I'm walking the path. There's this subtle shift where we're doing that now. It's kinda like somebody else uses language, maybe it'll help. It's kind of like, we've been living our life. And we've been in jetlag, like, we've had jetlag going on for a while. And now, it's over in the hole all your life is present. Yes, it's, there's something in the energy in that way. And everyone's kind of feeling it. And they're just depends on how they're expressing it can be expressing it as anxiety, or it can be expressing as I really need to step up my work.

Lynn: 58:17

What I actually have noticed that very thing, it feels like just the energy is stronger the planet. And how it hits people depends on their internal dialogue and structure and belief system, and kind of what happens, and I've seen more people go into deep anxiety, like, not understanding what they're feeling really isn't them necessarily, but they think it is. And then they just go into that sort of little self spiral as you describe it, and then others who are like, wow, this feels like a wave that I can ride. You know, and it's sort of like the idea of surfing, you can either, which I don't do because I'm scared to death that the ocean is gonna crush me on. I'm not that excited about I water ski, which is my version of surfing. But you know, it could either get better or worse, depending on how I choose to use the wave of energy you're describing. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that makes sense. That's what's happening. Well, it makes sense. And yet it doesn't if you're, if you're not willing to be tuned into what is all this about, right? And

Judith: 59:23

well, I mean, let's say, let's say you're not tuned in the same way, like I have neighbors that who, who, you know, when you're feeling this enormous amount of anxiety and can't explain why your body is having this anxious response, you're going to find the best answer you can find for yourself. But ultimately, you know, if you give yourself the opportunity to realize I'm feeling anxious, when I look at my life, there really shouldn't be a reason for me to feel this kind of anxious. Something else is going on. What else could it be? Uh huh. And in this case, what if just the world is starting to vibrate in a faster way? It's asking How to like, clean out the unhappy vibrations or the judgmental vibrations or the thoughts.

Lynn: 1:00:07

stirrups. You know, it's funny because that judgmental stuff, it's one of the early exercises that I had a coach give me I don't even know how many years ago that I often give my clients, which is just track your judgmental thoughts. You don't even realize how judgmental you are until you pay attention and start tracking and then it's like, Whoa, I am judging everything. I'm talking about that, you know, go to that go to the airport, and I'm talking about why did she wear that? And who, who would pick that kind of bag? And, you know, did they not know they're in my way and standing in a line? You know? Exactly. I can just be the most judgmental little traveler or whatever you've ever seen. And it started making me realize it's time to put out something different.

Judith: 1:00:51

Yes. And that's a tough one to turn off. I was raised very judgmental, and I was not aware I was until ways along the way. And I'm like, Whoa, okay. How do you begin to shift that and not have that be the default thought. And

Lynn: 1:01:07

it's really difficult. The the my second book was the the elegant pivot. It's called, What's the subtitle, an inspired move for navigating corporate politics. And it's really about assuming positive intent, which is to get rid of our judgments. And it actually lays out sort of the four big buckets in which we find ourselves, some of which are just totally the innocent traveler. You know, we don't even know them. I used to respond to people on the highway, you know, and I actually saw some teenage girls yesterday, that looked at me kind of weird driving down the road as I was going through this little town near where I live. And I could catch myself almost going there, when they looked at me weird and then remembering if they don't even know me, I mean, I don't even think they were looking at me, they were probably looking over my car at something else, you know, to see how quick I could have responded in a judgmental way. And it's like, Oh, good, go on it, go on you happy teenagers enjoy your life, you know, make that pivot in the moment is sort of, like what we're talking about and catching those judgments. And the book even carries it all the way up to what I call fighting Francis, which is the person who is actually out to get you. And, you know, in politics, you mentioned city politics. My husband was on town council here, he was the Mayor Pro Tem of our little town, which is a fairly complex town, because it involves not just all the things a normal city does, but running a dam and a hydroelectric plant and a interesting sewage system that isn't the normal way. Most people handle sewage, and so forth. And so it was pretty complex. And the politics were awful. But to when you assume positive intent, what's amazing is it works 100% of the time, no matter what people are doing when they're coming after you. Because everybody else on the on the final one, the hardest one to do, everybody else will take care of the person that's really out to get you if they really are out to get you. You force their hand. They're trying to they're trying to trigger you. So anyway, I will I'm not going to dive deeply into that. But this whole idea of getting rid of our judgmental thoughts, I think is one of the ways we, as you said, clean up so that we can use this energy.

Judith: 1:03:22

Yes, yeah, definitely. And, you know, as we've spoken on our calls, like I tend to take things even further. And so as we're speaking to your audience, I'm just very aware that the listeners, you know, again, my mind goes to what else could be possible. Yeah, rather than the thing that's going on. And a lot of times when we're having judgmental thoughts about somebody is if you can give yourself permission to imagine how many other possibilities there could be, for that going happening and being true. So if you think that this, whatever project is has collapsed for you, what else can be true? And how many good ones can you imagine? That's such a good exercise how many because almost always we've had this happen in one of the mentorship groups I had when one woman was in the process of purchasing a company and was like totally spot on excited and she was like I just so we're gonna work this out. And she jumped right into and spent a week at the company just to see if that was what she was wanting to want to do. And it fell apart like it just like devastating fell apart. And when you hold the belief that everything is good for you, and you can't exactly see why that's the case. And there must be something better that you can't see just yet but you're in the mire of depression because it's hard. Not three months later, an even better offer fell in her lap and even better all the way around. And it like over the top even better. That honestly when this deal fell apart, she's like, I'm just not even gonna do this. It's not it's not meant for me. I'm I'm going to buy a bill and we're like, that's okay. That's alright. We get it be depressed. It's like, sure enough, like, on a dime so fast on Excel. Wow. And so when you have the support of people around you saying, Yeah, okay, you're right, be sad. It was not fun. It was like, Yeah, you had a great feeling and you had an awful devastating feeling. And let's just allow for, we really believe that good things are coming for you. And they did they have. And there's, that's always true. Every circumstance,

Lynn: 1:05:33

I actually I can, I'm not going to do it right now. But I could tell you 10 stories in my life like that, where I've seen that exact thing happened. And it's like, if I could just remember to stay open to the possibilities. And that exercise of what else could be possible opens your eyes up to like, focusing on where you're going, instead of the devastation of where you've been? Exactly.

Judith: 1:06:00

The phrase is, you introduce creative thoughts. So you say, I wonder what else could be true? Or what else could be going my way I want it's the wandering. It changes your track of your brain from judgment to creation. Yes, powerful.

Lynn: 1:06:14

It's really super powerful. And the more you can come up with other possibilities, the and practice and exercise your brain that way, the less likely you're going to be to get caught up when things don't go your way. Yeah, I absolutely love that idea. Now, tell me, you've mentioned mentorship group, what does that look like? Are you is this, like, you're specifically using the language mentoring? So my first question was about to be, is it a coaching group? But it sounds like it's something a little bit different? What it what is that? And how do you help business owners?

Judith: 1:06:48

You know, I use the word mentoring, because I'm really not a trained coach. And I have a lot of respect for people who have spent many years as a coach and I have, of all the brilliant coaches I've worked with, they're the best thing that those coaches do is they ask you questions that when you answer them, you're like, lightbulb moments and clarity. Because at the beginning, you know what I said, I'm like, I don't have a problem. speaking my mind. Yeah, I can ask those questions. But I am also a consultant at heart. And so I have, again, because I can see answers for you, I have a tendency to offer them an offer guidance, and that's more of a mentorship. So it's a cross between coaching and consulting. And then for me, mentoring becomes true when the person you're working with has experience in the same field or same as you have can offer you their wisdom based on their having walked the path. Yep. So it's not just telling you what to do, which is more of a consultant capacity, right? And helping you find clarity. For me, it involves also having the wisdom in that particular field, and then I can actually go into the space of doing some of the work to so my mentorship is with a core group of women that we've been working since 2020. Together right now. Neat. It's been really beautiful, unanticipated, really great experience. But it is all it is all the things my mentorship includes an energy container. So we are literally holding an energy for our collective well being. And we all know what we're doing. So it's very intuitive. And it's business based. So how are we all going our business and all of us are allowing for a creation that is not have norm, so it is not linear. We're not here to do the traditional masterminding things where we're solely focusing on your business, a lot of times we're talking about our other life, and then stuff together. My one on one mentorships are very similar. So we're talking about your life, and whatever is going on in your life, it's going to be reflected in your work. And then when we need to focus on your work, we then focus on your work and get into your work. And then I have another capacity where I will occasionally step in with some businesses and and play a little bit of a COO, Chief of Staff roll where

Lynn: 1:09:15

my hands in your business. Wow, that's big. Yeah, I used to think I would do that. But I don't anymore. I'm more in the one on one, occasionally with groups, but usually teams in tech teams and companies. So do you because you've been with that group for a long time? Do you ever do other mentorship groups? Like if somebody else wanted a mentorship group? Would you start another one? Or is it is it only one on one because I can just imagine because I'm in a writing group that's a little bit like what you just described. And we we don't really have a leader but we definitely mentor each other. Exactly. And and there is a particular type of container and why we are together. There's been going on for several years, as well. And we talk about life. And we talk about, you know, in our case, it's writing. So it's about what we're doing with our books with our, you know, as opposed to just our businesses. But what is would be really weird to bring somebody in new is what I'm thinking. So if I was going to lead something like that, I would think I'd have to start new groups so that you sort of start together, how does that work for you?

Judith: 1:10:27

I will be starting a new group. And I thought that that's what I was going to start with recently, like, I thought this year would start with a group. And as I started to put that together, it came back I like it just the sense was timings wrong, you gotta wait a few more months, it feels like October is going to call another group in. Don't you love business planning like this, like, just imagine it's being done in corporate. But really, it's very much an awareness that the timing is not correct. For a group, I will be pulling a group together, I do run a very small, super accessible, not small, it's a small ticket group. It's like, I'm playing with this idea. There are a lot of entrepreneurs in the online space who are doing the low ticket price, but high ticket offer, like since this juxtaposition of pay a tiny little bit to get a lot. And I liked that concept. I was like, Okay, how can I play with this within the systems that I have? And so off of my newsletter, I have a paid component. And when you do the paid moment, then you get access to the energy of a container of support. So there's a little bit there, but an actual full mentorship probably won't come until the fall.

Lynn: 1:11:31

Yeah, that's why, you know, I've played with the same thing with mine, because I've had a lot of people say, How do I work with you, besides just this the individual, which is, as you call it, that's a high ticket price with me, because I have very limited capability to take on additional clients. And I have a very, very generous newsletter that includes the podcast, and blogs, and all my pretty much almost all my coaching tools, including a whole coaching program, right, that people have access to for no charge. But as soon as you start putting me in the picture, then it's a whole nother thing is like finding time, you know, to be able to continue to do that I haven't been able to find a way to do that. So I'm impressed that you've been able to figure that out.

Judith: 1:12:12

I think there's some ways to do it, it usually will require adjusting your expectations of yourself and what you want to accomplish. And and believing again, this is what else can be possible, is believing how much can be created without the direct one on one. But it happens in a different way. So the grossest happens, but it just happens in a different way. And it's usually has to do with what systems you use to hold it together. Like and it's got to be natural to you. So for everybody

Lynn: 1:12:39

slightly different. Yeah. When you say systems, what, what's what's in it? For instance,

Judith: 1:12:44

like the tools like the process, it's all the things it's like, I like to use Voxer for my communications. But that works really well, because I have a small group, if I had a much bigger group, how would that work? On it? I don't like to use recorded video, I am not a course person, because I'm so how can I create the real time and have it actually be real for me and real for them? Because I have a different way that I like to engage. Some people are very communicative, I like a much more minimalistic still approach because we have a busy life elsewhere. I don't need you, you know, getting stirred up with a bunch of other stuff. So it's, it's to me the system is the collection of the tools you use, or tools you use the processes when you meet how you meet. Yeah.

Lynn: 1:13:28

You know, it's interesting, because I've always struggled with the recorded videos myself, and I actually struggled with this with the TED talk that I did. Because one of the things I mastered was being with a group of people, and really getting, like I taught a self awareness program for 10 years. And I don't even know how many of those I taught, but it was hundreds in the hundreds of people and probably sessions and so forth. None of the, I always had, you know, the agenda, but none of them were the same. Yes. And ever. If you had videoed me, it would resonate only with the 10 people that were in the room that time and not the next 10. Because somehow, I would pick up on what this group would have. And we'd have certain groups with different things like one group would have a theme of highly successful, most of them didn't go to college. First one in the family probably had some pretty devastating childhood trauma in that picture. Another one would be everybody had the mom and apple pie thing but secrets in the family. You know, there would be these like themes that would occur. And it was like How the heck did this happen? And I wouldn't even know the theme, but somehow I'd be speaking to the theme, you know, some would be everybody was there trying to figure out why they couldn't get promoted. They had done everything right. And they weren't climbing the ladder. And I'm not saying it would be like 10 for 10 but it'd be enough that it was the theme for the meeting. So I've struggled myself I do a lot of videos, but I don't do them for, like long videos for teaching, because it's like, I don't know how to teach, unless I know the people that I'm talking to in the room.

Judith: 1:15:12

Yeah, yeah. Um, it's the same situation, I run across this with a lot of people, a lot of us, because, again, you're using your intuition to address an energy in the room. Yeah. And it takes a different shift to recognize, you can shut set the energy of the room and teach that. And so when you're doing a mentorship, like when I choose to do a mentorship, what you're doing is you're saying, Okay, I'm going to call this energy into this container. And that's the topic I'll be teaching to,

Lynn: 1:15:42

they say. So just slightly.

Judith: 1:15:45

And then when we the challenge is because we have social media and the way we teach courses now and that we have YouTube and everything is so ubiquitous, that we feel like we're talking to everyone and and we've got to train ourselves to talking to this tiny little handful of people. And I'm like, holding on like, a little cup of hands, right? It's just, but because we're so versatile in being able to meet the energy in the room, right? Because that's what you do you meet the energy in a room. It's almost called forth from you to serve the people that are in the room. And that's, I do not have a concrete answer on how to work that because I'm still working through how to make that be effective. Yeah, because you are responding to the nature of the topic, you bring a general topic or big topic, and the group that convenes is the group that meets your need. And now it's slightly different. Because when you think about YouTube, somebody's put the answer on YouTube. And the person with the question comes in and searches for it. And they received the answer, right? It's a little different than when, when you convened them in a group? Yep. Well, I'm

Lynn: 1:16:56

what I'm what we're talking about is different than how to change the oil in a 1985 Corvette, or, you know, those, those kinds of videos, I find, by the way, tremendously helpful. Yes. Especially when I'm not changing the oil and 85 Corvette, but things like that. And then I that idea, and I actually find tremendous joy in it when I realized it was a gift to be able to work with, whether it's an intact corporate team, or whatever, but to be with what they were up against, and also to call in or bring up the thing that they needed to address like sometimes to lift them up or to call in an energy if you will. So it's not just responding to them, but also offering something to them that exists. I love that dance. It's a love it dance. Yeah. You just get lit up. Yeah, yeah. And that's what makes it special. And, uh, you know, that's one of the reasons I just have never gotten into the course, stuff. Although occasionally I have recorded things that I found I was teaching over and over again. But mostly, most of what I what I do. And it's funny, because I do like little one minute videos once a week on my Instagram. And the only way I can do that is I actually just pick a person or a subject that is tied to a thing. And I'm basically talking to one person. So people tend to like them. Because evidently, there's more than one person that I'm talking to, even though I'm talking to one person, but she exactly when you were holding your hand, I was like, That's how those videos work is if I talk to that one person.

Judith: 1:18:24

Yes. Yeah. That's how I do it to somebody will ask me a question off on a private level. And then I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna go answer this publicly, too.

Lynn: 1:18:33

So, so I want to talk a little bit about the idea of marketing, because one of the I looked at your website, it's beautiful, well written, the copy is great. And one of the things I have helped a lot of my clients with is, how to write the things they're writing in this big morass that they're in, in a way that gets attention. For example, how to write good emails, matters, I think more inside of a corporate world than it does. And I tell my clients, you're always marketing, you're trying to get this project approved. You're trying to get your boss to pay you your bonus that's overdue. You know, you're trying to get promoted your marketing. Mm. Have you? Have you ever worked with anybody on or what's your take on sort of what the value of well first of all define marketing for me and your terms? And then what's the value of communication? Because you said you were a great communicator? And I feel like there's so much to learning to communicate. It's basically what we've been talking about, Oh, gosh.

Judith: 1:19:44

Marketing. i It's, I don't I don't marketing is the word we use to describe defining your product and letting people know you have something to sell whether your product is a service or product. I mean, here's what I got. Here's what I have to offer the world. And then you can make it more complicated from there. Who is it for? You know, it's simplistic, I can get to very simple essences because you can make it into far more and make it much more complicated. And the more complicated you make it, the more difficult it becomes to write about that one method tree, all the pieces, right? And yes, we are always marketing, and we always have something that we're trying to get out. And it will always come back to the clarity that you hold within you. Right. So I work on that front. First, are you clear? Are you clear on what you're working with? So the first place that comes up is Are you clear about who you're who you're working with? Who do you want this to be for? And the complication that's, that comes into that answering that question is whether or not the person I'm working with is allowing them to themselves to claim what they want. 90% of the time, you know, it's like it's a downstream prot, like you get all these things that affect you. So if you go up to the thing, are you asking for what you want? Because if you're not getting it, then what are you not clear about what you want? Are you not allowing yourself to actually claim what you want. And for service based, very heart based women, my people, they're not allowing themselves to ask for what they want.

Lynn: 1:21:21

You just described my salary negotiations. Now,

Judith: 1:21:24

like, you're just don't ask for what you want. And you don't ask for what you want. Because you're trying to give people what you think they need, or give people what you think they expect from you. And then when you twist again, it's like a twisted energy, then you can't have the flow that you're

Lynn: 1:21:40

asking for. And in that twist, a lot of times what I hear I literally had a client say this out loud to me one day, it was about and it wasn't about salary negotiations, it was about dealing with a conflict in the in the workplace. And the, the statement was, Who am I to do that? Or to ask for that? Who am I to ask for that? And if we get caught in that energy, I can tell you right now, you're twisted.

Judith: 1:22:07

Yep. In Can you mark it from that energy? No, I cannot tell you how much marketing gets twisted. Because at the top of the ladder, there, you're not asking for what you want. Because you're not allowing yourself to have it because you don't believe you can have it because you're placing somebody else's needs and wants first. And in corporate, when it comes to traditional marketing, like conventional business, conventional business says, figure out what the problem is. So focus on the other person, but more focus on you. Mm hmm. and serve them. And when you have service based service, like heart based service oriented women who often are over givers, you just pulled all of your energy out of yourself to do that. And this happens in corporate too, because I see this with corporate women. It's like, how can I serve the company. And then you do it at your own expense. And so it's really about lining your energy of the front. So that marketing works. Because once you find that you almost don't even have to market?

Lynn: 1:23:07

No. Right? Now, you're actually communicating. And the thing is that I think there's also a judgment on the word marketing, because people go into almost like the used car salesmen piece or the desperation, they've seen people not offer, but like, weaseled their way, if you will, or do whatever they have to do, because all that I love this idea of this twisted energy

Judith: 1:23:30

that you're describing, it's just gets kinked. It's like, how are you straighten this out?

Lynn: 1:23:34

Yeah, how do we straighten this out so that it's clean? And that we have a place in it? Because I do think we've also been very much socialized as to what selfish is. And particularly with women, they struggle with, but isn't that selfish? And I literally had been told that I had people who have like been told to stand up for themselves is to be selfish.

Judith: 1:24:01

Yeah, yeah. Then you do you do run across that, except that when you notice that your life is suffering? Yeah. It is a difficult shift, I had to make that shift myself. I'm a to service oriented, and we're learning that you have to attend to yourself first. And once you do it a little bit you recognize Okay, now that I've done that a little bit, I have so much more available to me. Once I filled my cup a little bit, I can go with more joy or more energy, I have got more to give.

Lynn: 1:24:34

Right? That's the picture I have is I want to be giving from an overflowing cup. And for a good part of my life I was giving from a cup that was down at the quarter. So it'd be like, Okay, I'll give you a drop. I'll give you a drop. I'll give you a drop. And when I began to have that picture of if my cup is overflowing, then everybody I encounter I can give with with great generosity To

Judith: 1:25:01

Exactly, yeah, and then that affects everything all the way out to money, right? It's the, it's interesting because if you can fill up, then you aren't living in a constricted energy or like depleted all the time. And then financially that shows up in your field as well. It

Lynn: 1:25:15

absolutely does like with that, because I just, I do believe that money isn't the driver. But I do think it's an indicator.

Judith: 1:25:23

Well, it's a reflection of energy and whatever is important to you, it's going to show up reflection of your relationships, too. It's like, oh, I want to have a loving relationship, or I want to have partners, I want to have whatever. And that's another avenue that you can see are juxtaposed to money as well.

Lynn: 1:25:38

Right, right, just all those reflections, but it's just where's the cart before the horse or after the horse? Like what goes first. So one, one of the things I always like to ask of my guests, besides which we will get to as how people can find you, because I'm quite sure people are going to be intrigued and learning more about you, and maybe how to work with you or how to find you on the web and all that kind of stuff. But if you had anything that you would want to tell my, my, my listeners piece of advice, something that they could watch out for anything like that, what what would you what would your guidance be to somebody listening to this conversation? Let's see, what where are they on their journey? Nope,

Judith: 1:26:27

the question I would ask is like, Okay, do I have a general for everyone? It's like, okay, how do I answer that question? In relationships,

Lynn: 1:26:33

you can't almost right, you'd have to pay somebody. The so the, alright, so we're going to be really brief here. Let's just make me the proxy, because you've been in conversation with me, okay,

Judith: 1:26:49

I can do that.

Lynn: 1:26:50

So that might be easier for you. And I'm gonna be really selfish to go I'm gonna get me some Judith. Sorry, guys, for listening. But take your

Judith: 1:26:59

time. Well, it's gonna apply to everyone. But I always like to provide the context for how it's true. And for everybody, you know, when you're an entrepreneur, you think like the world of entrepreneurs is what's specific to me. And it's not the same as Oh, when I'm a corporate, when I'm in corporate that world is they're all the same world. So you just all of a sudden, in context, it helps a lot to be received. So we, the more you are able to recognize that you are already there, you don't have any more healing to do, there's no more room to fix. In fact, you almost don't even have to work as hard on the self judgments as you were, as long as you see them and the like. It's like, like picking off a little lint off your sweater, it's, the more you can recognize that you are already there. And can be, you can actually step forward as the person you've been working to become. That is our journey right now, for everybody. And so that what I would attach onto that, like a little like little suitcase attached onto that would be that we have learned now for so many years, for those of us on this journey, that we've learned about how to look within how to heal the broken pieces How to Unravel those Wounded Child selves. What I want you to hear is that either you really don't have to do it as much as you have been thinking you did, because we really did for a period of time. It's not as heavy a weight, or you don't really need to do it anymore. That's not really the thing that's causing the slowdown or the hiccup or the whatever the challenge is, the challenge isn't that I need to heal some more. The challenge is that I need to step out as the Healed person now

Lynn: 1:28:49

Oh, step out as the Healed person. So

Judith: 1:28:56

that is that's what's one of the biggest shaft shifts and dynamic. And this is true for everyone. So when you read my website, it's like, trust your gifts, like trust that you're already there, and walk as that. That's one of the biggest pieces of wisdom I can give everybody. And the second piece that is really big right now is in whatever way you can accept change for yourself, like in your life, or in the world, do it because individually like you, I don't even know the whole story of your life lesson. But I would say individually, if I look at your life, there are going to be such big changes in your life over the next 10 to 20 years that you can't understand them now. Either because the world around you is changing or because you're going to express in such a different way that if you can find a way to find tons of joy in that creative unfolding of you and the world That's the That's the lesson right now. That's the opportunity for everybody. So corporations are going to change and you can look at those big corporations changing as scary, they're things are falling apart, or you can see them as, like a shedding. And we have this beautiful thing that's coming out of them. And it's all like a mystery as to what it's going to be. But there can be joy and mystery, just like unwrapping presents at Christmas, there's just, that's the feeling tone, that if we can hold that, and that's going to be taking place. So those are the two big things, we're gonna have so much change, there's so much possibility available, there's so much creative energy coming out of people. So if you imagine that you're stepping out as the Healed person, so you're fully functional, like you've gotten holding you back, then what you have available to you is so many possibilities. So infinite, it's infinite, and we're going to be creating, we're going to be creating miracles like impossible things that we thought were unsolvable, are going to be solvable. And then if you wanted me to go to one level deeper on the esoteric realm, I would go there, you want to go there now there. We are dealing with multi dimensional energy. So when I say the impossible is possible, what's happening is in some capacity that we don't actually have to understand in our minds, the these super super complex situations like how do we create peace on the world, like we understand, or we can pick some crisis filled peace conflict area, we're like having to create peace in that problem, because it's so complex. The fact that we have the capacity to move in multi dimensional energy right now means that we actually have people that can create solutions for multi dimensional problems. And I can't explain to you because this is how it works for me, like I know what I know, I can't explain how that solution will be made. But I can know that it exists because we now have access to that multi dimensional solutions in a way that we didn't we used to have linear solutions. Yeah. Now we have multi dimensional solutions.

Lynn: 1:32:08

What is multi, what does multi dimensional mean?

Judith: 1:32:13

I'm describing it as something that's really, really complex, like you have so many. It's like, think of five d chess, you've got so many different layers of complexity, you've got governments systems, personal climate, climate, like there's just so many different layers that if you just can't figure out how to solve that problem, because you can attack it from so many different levels like that, you're never really going to make an answer. If you go through one point. Except that something's happening right now, energetically, globally, where we can.

Lynn: 1:32:45

It's like a Rubik's cube on steroids is describing even a Rubik's cube can be solved. So can this Yes, because this is a much bigger Rubik's Cube.

Judith: 1:32:56

Yeah, and for intuitives, when I talk about multi dimensional, what it means is, time and space are collapsing. So a really, really personal way of undimmed understanding multi-dimensional is when you meditate, or when you get into a quiet place, and you start imagining the future, or when you get into quiet space, and you start going back to your inner child, like your five year old child and spending time with your five year old child, you're actually crossing time and space, we think it's abandoned. But what's happening is we're crossing time and space. So that's multi dimensional. And a very simplistic

Lynn: 1:33:28

and very good example. I was about to ask for an example. But that's exactly it. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I actually had a, I had a podcast guest, Sarah Barnes wrote a book called she who rides horses, and it was about the first person to ever ride a horse on the step, I think of Mongolia or something 6000 years ago. But she, she pointed out that when we learned to ride horses, we collapse time and space, because you could cross faster on a horse than you could by foot. And then the same thing happened when we went from horse to car. And then yet another level happened. We went from car to airplane. Exactly right. So all of a sudden, we're in touch with people and distances that we couldn't have been in touch with before. We just consider that normal. But if you look at it on the on the scale of a time on the planet, you know, cars and airplanes are a very new invention. Relative to the 1000s of years humans have existed on the planet, much less electricity. Yeah,

Judith: 1:34:29

that is a great example. I love that. And then your capacity to close your eyes or to get into a really closed Deep State and go back to your five year old and he'll have whatever happened. That again, is time travel switches, multi-dimensional, no question

Lynn: 1:34:46

about it. And I've had the good fortune to have some coaches with skills to help develop. In fact, I do this with my clients as well, where we can, we can heal it instantly. Exactly. If you're willing to go there

Judith: 1:35:00

My hunch is you have people healing future and you have people healing past life and future life. And then if you heal soul lines, I mean, we're doing multi dimensional work, we've just not conceived of it that way, which means that we have the capacity to heal a complex situation like climate change or peace or hunger.

Lynn: 1:35:20

Yeah. Have you heard of the? I want to say it's Hawaii. And I'm not going to get the name right. But hope Oh, no. pono pono pono? I don't know. So yeah, Hono pono, which one of my coaches sent me, I guess it was 20 years ago, but the idea was for, for the, for the healing to happen on the planet, all I have to do is heal myself exam. And if I step out as the Healed person, then I'm going to help the planet. Yes, exactly is the second part. I'm not saying that part is 100 pono. But the first part is healing myself. So you know, what a hopeful message to think that we can just step out as the heal person and trust our gifts. I've had a lot of messages this week around trust, by the way. And the second one is whatever you can accept, allow the change in your life or your world, do it find joy in the change, because the changes come in. This is one of my big messages. And every every client I'm working with is in the midst of major changes. We're dealing with multi dimensional energy, but we have the ability to go into multi dimensions because our minds are capable of doing that.

Judith: 1:36:31

And that it's just the energies allowing that to it's, it's amazing.

Lynn: 1:36:36

It's happening. It's amazing times. Yeah. Wow. Wow. So say a little bit about how people can find you. And if they want to work with you, if it's even possible, how they might do that. I would love

Judith: 1:36:48

it. So my favorite place to hang out. I'm not a social media girl, I am on Instagram. So let me start. I'm on Instagram. So if I needed to be on social, that's probably the best the best one Instagram person join me there. And what's your handle? Judith a monthly guests. So it's my name. Okay.

Lynn: 1:37:05

And spell that because I bet a lot of people don't know how to spell. My last name is I can't I can't say it the way you say it either.

Judith: 1:37:12

So, my last name is M A N

Lynn: 1:37:16

RIQU. Easy, easy. Okay.

Judith: 1:37:21

So that's my social that I'm on occasionally I like to use stories more than anything else. And rails do stories and reels, I'm not very good about posting there. My, my most common place is my substack and my substack is you are the dream.substack.com Okay, so my substack is an unconventional quote unquote newsletter. So it's blog plus newsletter, and I choose whether or not it's going to be an audio podcast or if it's going to be text based on whatever the week holds. I think coming up we're gonna have some videos coming up that they did so I just go with it's my creative space. If you join there and do as a paid subscriber, then you join my little mini group. And then my website is my name Judith monthly guest calm and I do have one on one mentorships I do a minimum of a three month engagement. Again, if you want to scale off of that and have it actually in your business, whether you're an entrepreneur or corporate then I do a customer proposal off of that

Lynn: 1:38:25

right right but first you get to you got to get to know the person

Judith: 1:38:29

Yes but you know sometimes you know that you're coming in you can get a feel for I need somebody to come in and do the inner work plus the hands in your business I'm not going to do hands on your business without doing the inner work could collect all those things go together so it'll be the inner work plus is another way to think about it and for people who are interested I do think that come the fall maybe October I'll be doing a group but wait to hear what comes it's ultimately around mastery. I keep getting this over and over and over and over again. Which is it's it's a collective group for somewhere around four to six months, which often takes me to the next level up which is we work on mastery level work.

Lynn: 1:39:14

Right? Right. And when you say mastery I'm sure you're talking not only Self Mastery, but business mastery. Yes, Life Mastery is

Judith: 1:39:22

mastery. It's the piece that's missing in life where Okay, let's all get comfortable with each other get some foundational language but then we don't have that transitional stage where we go from being student to teacher or leader or or of our power so you know, you've kind of hit the stage to where when did you go from being well, what did they say maiden mother crone window position into your wisdom. And mastery to me is operating from your wisdom where you are both student and teacher at all times. And you hold the same responsibility within the group as all the others So it's not so much lead as we co lead.

Lynn: 1:40:03

That's, that's a concept I call power with. And in my book, I have a chart about power over power under Empower with like, why is it just some indicators of it? And I'm so dedicated to being in a power with state with everyone I work with? Yeah. Not a power over and not a power under. Yeah. And that's a really joyous place to be that can make some people incredibly

Judith: 1:40:27

uncomfortable I found exactly, exactly, yeah, because the power

Lynn: 1:40:31

over power under dynamic is so pervasive, and we're comfortable in it, we know how to play that game.

Judith: 1:40:36

Exactly. That's See, that's an example. Remember, I said get comfortable with change, that's another one that's going to everything that you're comfortable with as norms. They don't, they're not going to play any longer.

Lynn: 1:40:46

Yeah, I will. I'm going to I'm going to mention one of my podcast guests a couple of times ago was Anna 20, who is a animal communicator, and really deep horse trainer and her son was with us in an animal communication workshop. And he's 10. And I have always enjoyed, I spent a little bit of time because she's only five minutes away from me over there doing drumming with horses, and a couple of workshops and so forth. But this last one, it was notable to the people that she treats her son like an equal and unsettling I could see for some, but I've always felt like he carried an energy that I didn't teach treat him like a child at all. Like there's always a power with with him. And that's an example of where in a parent child relationship, it isn't the power over power under but power with it was really notable. And she even called it out in the session and thanked everybody, you know, for, for trading. She said, you know, occasionally when I will treat my son that way, I will see the eye rolls. Hmm. And she said, I didn't get any of that from this particular group. And that's something that a lot of our parents would have said, That's not how you raise our child and all that noise. But I think it's just a sign of, of where we are on the on the, like you said on the planet right now. Yeah, it's true. True. Very cool. I have so enjoyed this conversation. And for those of you listening, I'm sure you did, too. So be sure and share it. As we said at the beginning, we want this conversation to get out in the world. So let people hear about it, share it, like it on Facebook, or Instagram or wherever you find it. And definitely, podcast reviews always help. So we would appreciate those and your subscription as well. So we will see you all on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.