#64 Kathy Taylor: The Importance of Coming Back to Center of Safety

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Kathy Taylor have heard wise leadership coaching. We started this conversation with a quote that was behind her. And it launched a very interesting conversation about what it means for us to be true to ourselves. In fact, her language was what does it mean to be a safe person to ourselves. Now, if that's intriguing for you, it got even more interesting, because she likened what we were talking about to filling a jar, like the little honey Bart bear jars, that have all kinds of nooks and crannies. What she does is help people find all the nooks and crannies inside their bodies, and inside their mindsets that keep them from being who they were really born to be. And as you know, if you listen to this podcast, that's a lot of what we're talking about. We're talking about balancing acts, we're talking about how we can be more true to ourselves, and we're talking about the steps it takes to get there, she gave us some of those kinds of steps actually, in this conversation and a really clear understanding of the ways that we can serve ourselves. So here is a little bit about Kathy, she's an embodiment and nervous system coach who also incorporates horses and nature in her practice. She works with highly successful women who don't want to believe this is all there is, but just can't quite seem to get where they want to go and are exhausted from trying. Kathy was aware of her people pleasing perfectionism and proving were holding her back. But she didn't know what else to do. The latest self help book new strategies and trying really hard had gotten her only so far. She put a lot of pressure on herself to succeed like everyone else had and nearly gave up. When she discovered it was her own. Well practice stress and trauma responses getting in the way. She knew that more head knowledge couldn't take her where she wanted to go. By learning how to work with her own body and nervous system, she was finally able to acknowledge her needs, show up as her real self and take meaningful action. With her intellect and intuition working together at last Kathy shares with others how to access the wisdom of the body. I know you're gonna love this podcast with Kathy Taylor. I hope you enjoy it. And if you do share it with others. Here's Kathy Taylor. Patti Taylor. Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast.

Kathy: 2:49

Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

Lynn: 2:51

I can't believe we're doing this.

Kathy: 2:54

I'm really excited. I've been able to do this for a while actually,

Lynn: 2:57

I am glad Well, I'm thrilled that she would want to have to do it. And it's kind of interesting what our journey has been. But I have to start because you and I've had several zoom calls over the last couple of years. And I actually got to meet you in person. It was I think, the fall of 2021 When you were in the area. And so that's cool. But in all of our conversations, I don't remember ever seeing the sign that's behind you that says be full of yourself. Yeah, what is? I know, I know, that that when I was little anyway, growing up in Texas, which is where you live, I would be admonished if you were so full of yourself as if that was a bad thing. So please tell me what that what that means to you. And of course, why you chose to put those particular words behind your screen for the Zoom call.

Kathy: 3:49

Well, I actually realized, I went back and read some of my writings that I've actually kind of been saying that to myself, for the last few years. I didn't I thought it had been just the last few months, but kind of like you I remember people sort of, you know, pointing the finger at me and saying stop being so full of yourself. And so I just kind of wanted to flip that on its head because I was kind of doing this exploration about taking up space more recently. That's kind of where I think it came bubbled back to the surface again. And and for a while too. I've also had this analogy of the honey bear where you know those honey bears that have the plastic jars that are shaped like bears that have money and I you know, I kind of think if we're full of ourselves, then equate it to that honey bear. Then that honey bear has honey in every little hair in his ear in his nose all the way up to the tippy top. And that's when we're like yeah, that's that's the one we want to get. We don't want to get the one that has a big air bubble in it right? So it's like be full of yourself is be full of you and all the goodness that is you Because who and what else? Are we supposed to be full of, if not ourselves? Because we're so full, I think sometimes have other ideas, other people's thoughts, other beliefs and patterns that have that we've just said, oh, yeah, I guess that's what we're supposed to do. And we just don't think twice about it. So might be full of yourself is kind of that little homage to the, to the Honeybear. Content. Oh, I love that. Flow herself. A little honey,

Lynn: 5:29

you know, that's a phenomenal image. I'd never thought of it that way. Yeah, that's a phenomenal image. Well, and the other piece that really struck me what you just said, was talking about taking up space. And I mean, where I went, immediately was just this feeling I had, especially as a young person, sort of figuring out how to be in the world, where it felt like taking up space was not allowed. And that's sort of the children be seen and not heard thing. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people were conditioned that way. So to the idea of being full of ourselves, and to take up space, and to have the right to take up space. Feels antithetical to the way we were taught to be in the world. Yeah. Right. And yet, maybe essential, if we're going to actually ever be true to ourselves. Definitely.

Kathy: 6:32

I've actually been telling the clarity of it came to me not too long ago. So I feel like I've been telling all my clients this lately, that I feel like when we are full of ourselves, when we have our beliefs, and we own them, and we have our patterns, and we own them. And we have our values, and we own them, we find that place in us that is safe. And so we become a safe person to ourselves, when we can become a safe person to ourselves, other people feel that in us, and we become safe to them, so that they can then be full of themselves, instead of be fully being full of us and like having to borrow our confidence or something like that. They can then be full of themselves and become their own safe space for themselves. And and that whole taking up space is just, you know, how big is that? Is that felt sense of safety within you. And I think it varies depending on the situation and who you're with. Because sometimes there are times where you want to take up less space, because you you want to give the opportunity for someone else to blossom and bloom and show up. Other times. It's like, Oh, I know, I'm hiding. What Why am I hiding? Can I find that safe place in me so that I feel safe enough to go out there, and then be full of myself.

Lynn: 8:04

While this is, this has got me thinking that safe being a safe person to ourselves. It's that idea of an inner locus of control versus an external locus of control. And of course, I think our conditioning, by the nature of who we are, as humans has to start externally, we cannot we don't come out of the womb, walking and able to feed ourselves. We have to have other people, I think we are hardwired for other people. But I also don't know that our society and our ways of being especially today ever transition is over and say, now you're an adult, it's in your hands. And we are given a sort of even a ceremonial way to switch and say, Okay, your life is yours. It's on you, we kick people out of the house at 18. And say, or, you know, not not kick out, but you know, we'd let them free it whatever age it might be, and say, hey, you know, you're no longer on mom and dad's payroll and go make your own life and, you know, move off and do your job or whatever. But there's never really this thing that says, It's not I shouldn't say never, because there are societies that still do this, but that you're now an adult, it's time for you to take responsibility for your life. And that's what being saved to yourself is, isn't it?

Kathy: 9:20

I think that's part of it. Yeah.

Lynn: 9:23

Fill in the rest of it. Because I saw your eyes go home. I wonder about that. So yeah.

Kathy: 9:27

I because because it's a process. So I don't think it's like, you know, you turn whatever age and bam, you're there. It's a process. Yeah, you know, all the time that we're growing up, if we can, actually, so I'll speak from a parent's point of view, because I'm a parent I'm also a child obviously, but you know, if we can allow our children to, to, to make mistakes and, and, and when I say ensure we bit let them make mistakes, but we don't then try to go up and fix it. Huh. So, so that they can work and put some effort in to try to make it because when they can figure out how that they made a mistake and then how to fix it, then they trust themselves more than next time. So, yeah, that's that trust to yourself that, oh, I've never done this before. But I've done something hard before. And I made it through, you know, let that cycle build on itself, so that by the time they get to be 1820 25, whatever, they're able to go out into the world and go and have this true sense of who they are. Even though it's, it's still, you know, we're still always incomplete. I mean, it's still part of the journey, you're still fighting, figuring that out some, but as much as they are now at 25, or 18, or whatever, for them to feel secure in that. And I think that's, that's, to me, that's part of that feeling safe to yourself.

Lynn: 11:02

What I'm here, yeah, because it I didn't mean to apply, but I could see how that I didn't mean to imply that there's a switch, we flip. But for me, what I realized is that this whole idea of taking responsibility of having an internal locus of control happened rather late in life for me, and it's still happening. But it happened, very light. And what I have discovered, as I'm working with other clients and so forth, is there's almost even not an awareness of what you just described. Now. It's coming back into awareness, Carol Dweck's work helped us a lot. You know, she's the one who wrote the book, mindset about the fixed versus growth mindset. And I just heard on Andrew humans podcast this last couple of weeks, he came out with one about the how to enhance performance through a growth mindset. I don't know if you've heard him speak about this. But there's another level one of Carol Dweck students discovered, which is exactly the work I've been doing with Bruce Anderson, which is called the stress enhancing mindset. And that's what you just described. So stress enhancing meaning that not just Am I willing to learn and I'm I don't see my mind as a closed container, that just has to be fixed in my, my intelligence is fixed, but that I can actually learn and grow. But the stress is enhancing mindset. They said literally was triggered by having the difference between teaching one group of people stress is harmful. And the other group of people saying stress is helpful. And then they put all the science behind it, that was all true. Yeah, because, you know, we all know about too much cortisol. And, you know, stress can cause this damage. And a lot of talk about burnout in the country right now and so forth is around what the stress negatives are. But stress also is what grows muscles. Stress is what helps us learn and grow, you know, we correct mistakes like you described, and so forth. And he said, just that difference was a 40% improvement. Performance. If you believe stress is good for you, and then use it as a way to learn. And and specifically, what do you do, he called them errors rather than mistakes. Because I think for some people mistake is a loaded word. I love the word because I think it's, I talk about not hitting people's mistake, but and I think we all have programming around mistakes, and we should talk about it. Anyway, in that interesting. And that is interesting about

Kathy: 13:28

Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, we're all very familiar with the word distress, but we're not very familiar with the word use stress, which really is a word, which is, is that it's the good stress

Lynn: 13:40

that you're talking about. How do you spell that? Is it you?

Kathy: 13:43

It's d u str? Yes.

Lynn: 13:45

I did not know that was a word. Yeah.

Kathy: 13:49

Yeah. So you know, that's what we're trying to do. Like when I'm out working out with clients or with the horses. I'm trying to widen that window of tolerance just a little bit by like, let's go to the edge, and then come back to center. So we're going to the edge of what's scary, but not distressing, what's your stress thing. And then back to center of safety. And that's exactly what babies do when when they're born. Or you know, when they're learning to crawl, they crawl a little bit away from mom, and then they come back and then they go a little further and then they come back. But the coming back is really important. Yeah. Yeah.

Lynn: 14:25

Well, and that's, that's exactly that space of discomfort that I call the froth, which is where I feel like the Learning Zone is right, because it feels inside of us a little bit like the shaking up of a, of a carbonated can. Or like the water at the edge of the ocean, you know, a little bit of new, a little bit of old, but like you said, if you don't go back into center, then you get into distress and that and I feel like that may be why so many people spiral down from stress rather than spiral up.

Kathy: 14:55

But yeah, yeah, I think that

Lynn: 14:56

we have a choice about whether we spiral up or down when we're under stress and pressure. are,

Kathy: 15:01

well, we, we, if we spend too much time at the edge pushing through things all the time, then our nervous system says I give up. And it just goes, you know, I've got to collapse, I got to fight, I got to freeze, I got to flee something. But if we can start to notice those, those signs in our bodies that, hey, I'm at the edge, my, I'm really tired, my voice is quieting, getting rough or something and go back. And just like, even something as simple as just stopping for 30 seconds and just doing some strong breathing.

Lynn: 15:33

You know, describe what strong breathing is, I have a lot of breathing methods, but I've never heard of stop breathing.

Kathy: 15:37

So straw breathing, you usually have as it's best to have a straw because so you just breathe in for two breaths, you know, not super. It's not too, not too super long rest. So you're probably pretty good swift breath in, hold it for a beat of one. And then you want to breathe out for eight through the straw. And as you breathe out for eight, you want to make sure that all of your air is getting breathed out. Okay? So you know, you're breathing in a good amount, and then some so taking that longer time to exhale. But having to use your your muscles and your nervous system to put it through that smaller set of just throughout your whole mouth changes the way that your affects your body. And so it can help you just down regulate things. And yeah, and still keep but still keep them awake enough. Does that make sense?

Lynn: 16:35

Oh, absolutely. And how many seconds in was it I got the eight out it was how many am

Kathy: 16:40

I got? I do two in and I kind of just pause for a second and then eight and eight

Lynn: 16:45

out. When we're doing ice baths. Robin Schiller taught me this breath, it's for an eight out. Okay. And that is if you can keep that cadence up. As your body is going into fight or flight. It dramatically helps you to get to the sort of the 32nd mark, which is where the nervous system then says, Oh, I've got this. You just have to I'll just, you know, we're not getting out. So we're just going to hit you up. You're not going to die. I'll just eat your body up. And you can feel that switch. Right and about 30 seconds.

Kathy: 17:21

Yeah. Wow, I have not been brave enough. Can I spell? Well, I

Lynn: 17:25

would say right now in Texas, you should because it's hot there.

Kathy: 17:31

I don't know. I do not like being cold. And I had an experience in high school when I was a swimmer in high school. And so the heater great. And I grew up in Florida, but the heater was turned off in the pool in the middle of winter. And so it wasn't Oh, it was like 65 degrees. And we were all out there shivering in our swimsuits. And we're like he's not really going to make us get in. And actually he wasn't except for somebody thought they'd be smart. And they went and shoved the coach in the pool. So after that he was kissed. Then he's like y'all swim. So I remember swimming about 500 yards and that in there and I just could feel my muscles like cramping my area yours hurt from the inside out. And I just like me and Cameron. That's a trauma right now I think.

Lynn: 18:21

Yeah. Well, and that that would be you'd want to take that one probably a little bit slow. I did it. I actually just did cold showers for about five years before I did my first true. I did one ice bath. When one day I turned the bath on thinking I was going to have a hot bath in the middle of winter. And came up to discover that I had an ice bath. Oh no. And I had been doing the cold showers maybe for I don't know six months or so. And I just looked at Russ and I said I was really looking forward to a nice hot bath tonight. But it looks like I'm getting in this cold water. And I did it and I was able to stay in for two minutes. But I felt like my insides were just coming out of my body. I mean it hurt. Yeah. But when I What if that would probably was only 60 degree water to I'm sure it wasn't in the 40s because I know I hadn't been in anything as cold as that until I did the 47 degree ice bath with with Robin at the podcast summit last November. Yeah, when

Kathy: 19:20

I hear about how cold the people's water is that they're doing these ice baths is 65 Sounds really boring. When we're skiing,

Lynn: 19:31

you know, we start wearing wetsuits depends on who you are, but I'll typically start wearing a shirt when it's like 70 You know, 68 is like when I'll start wearing a shirt and then I'll wear a wetsuit, you know, and then when it starts getting in the 50s I'm going to want to have a full dry, I mean sometimes a dry suit, but mostly I've just been wearing ever really good wetsuit, full length, and you know below 55 We're just not scan but I'm in 55 degree water. Pretty common. So I I was very conditioned to that years ago I quit going into the sort of like shock when I'd get in the water if it was anything other than bathtubs warm and you know, I used to get in. It's so cold and now I'm like, but that 45 degree baths bath with Robin was like, I everything in my body wanted me to get out. Yeah. But every body like I had one of my podcast guests last year Amanda held was here in March for an animal communication workshop with Anna 20. And it was mid 50s water at that point. And she said, I don't know. And she said, I this is my greatest fear is cold water. I said all the better. So we you know, my like, you've been there we got in my like, she and her husband both gone. And she said I don't have a bathing suit. And I said, don't worry, we have ways to fix it, then I'll get you a sports bra. You can wear shorts, you know. So she did a couple of them and the feeling of conquering it was I think what really, really hit her. And now guess what she's posting this week on Facebook. She got a polar plunge. She's doing daily ice baths. Wow. So I'm like, Wow, that's so cool. I mean, we're gonna have everybody doing it before it's over with. But everything you described about the nervous system, I feel like it's the quickest way to prop your nervous system to go into a mode of wanting to protect you. And then showing it that it doesn't have to be on such high alert.

Kathy: 21:27

Huh? Yeah. So that's one way.

Lynn: 21:32

You have other ways tell me about I do have other way?

Kathy: 21:35

Yeah, so I am a, what do you call it? Neuro somatic intelligence coach. Now I can I can call myself that. And so what that does is it well and I discovered this because when I got bucked off my horse, I was in incredible pain for three years. Like it took me 10 minutes to roll over in bed. My body quit sneezing for two years, because it was too painful. I like I feel sneeze coming on. And I could just feel my body shut it down. Wow. Because pain, you know, pain is our body's way of saying, hey, there's something wrong here. Don't do that. Yeah. You know, and so is a fawn response, people pleasing. Same thing, something's wrong, I need to protect myself. So what I learned to do through doing this, from a physical point of view is that it also works for a mental emotional perspective, because it's all the same nervous system. So we do a physical assessment of our rotation of our body. Meaning like, how does how far does my neck rotate one way to the next? How far? Can I rotate my torso one way to the next? What's my balance? Like if I stand on one foot? Something like that something that's specific and measurable, and that I can repeat. So that's my son. We assess that to see like, what's the baseline for today, right now. And then we'll do a neuro drill, which is any number of things depending you know, what system are you trying to? To address is it the vision system, the vestibular system, that proprioception system. And so we'll do a so strong breathing is one of those drills, there's something as simple as Tom circles. They are, there's something called an infinity walk, which is really good for integrating different the different systems. So we do an assessment, we do a drill, and then we reassess. And if you're finding the goal is to find a drill that that's works for your body, and the way you find that is you have your body has more range of motion. So what you've done is you said okay, here's my body, this is my range of motion. Now, I've done a drill, and set and then and told my nervous system. Hey, check this out. And then I check my system again, can I have greater range of motion, so the nervous system goes off, I'm safer, because and the rotation is a good indicator of what feels safe to your body. Because when when you go into fight, flight or freeze, we are always wanting to go forward. The rotation shuts down. Because you think about running, we're going straight you think about firing we're trying to hit something true is just that so that rotation is a really good indicator of how how flexible in certain healthy your nervous system is in that

Lynn: 24:30

moment. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And when you're doing this, like I was just thinking, I was just trying to picture does it have to be in person because you need to be able to see their body or is it something you can actually do online? No, I've

Kathy: 24:46

done I did all I've done all of everything on Zoom.

Lynn: 24:50

Is that right? Yeah. So just somebody stacked up in front of you on Zoom for you to be able to assess their body. Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating.

Kathy: 24:59

Yeah, it's Interesting the end like, it was crazy the first time I did you know, because sometimes we're stuck. We don't even know it. I did something called a thoracic glide, which is basically I'm wanting to move my, that my spine backwards, but not move my shoulders. Okay, right. So it's, it's kind of, so I'm sort of pushing my back to towards the back and then bringing it back towards the front, almost like I'm then pressing my sternum out, is sort of what it looks like. And a lot of times, I'll think, Oh, look at me, I can do all this movement. But actually, what's moving is my shoulders. Ah, so by mobilizing my shoulders, I'd think I would try to move that part of my body. And it's like, that does not compute, you know, like, the connections were gone. And so I worked on that for about a week or so. And I thought, Okay, this is much better. And the next time I got on my horse, I thought, oh, my gosh, wait, you mean, all these people when they're riding along and they're going with the horse's mouth? They're not just moving their elbows back and forth, is that that's what it looked like to me. And that's what I thought it was supposed to feel like in my body? Well, no, I felt completely different. It was like I every time I got on the horse, as I'm doing these drills, with my coach, every time I got back on the horse, it felt different in a really good way. Like, I thought, This feels this feels safe. Whereas before, I just kind of felt like it was just sort of on top of the horse. I had gotten bucked up.

Lynn: 26:30

Well, that it's kind of I mean, you and I didn't get fully bucked off. But you know, I had a bad fall as well. So we share, we share a lot of things. And that's one of them. That getting back on, you know, a ginormous animal that can throw us off and trying to move with them, as opposed to in a self protected way is a profound change. Yes. So I totally get that it was it was I don't even know how many horses and I don't even know how many months or probably years before I was able to even just get on and not have adrenaline pumping through my body like I'm about to die. I give so much credit to the horses that let me be on them in that condition. Because there's no question they knew about that. There must have been, yeah, if I could have been in their hands. It would have been wrong. This woman is scared to death.

Kathy: 27:22

Yeah, well, I think that's what got me booked off in the first time as I was up there every time just scared to death. Yeah. And I basically was telling my trainer, okay, you have to keep us safe because I'm scared. And I he's, he's scared because I'm scared. And, you know, he'd start bolting. And, and I was like, okay, so I learned how to breathe and relax. And he'd come back and like three strides, but then I'd be just on tenterhooks, like was was it going to happen next? When's it gonna happen next. And when I think about it, I was like, I rode that horse for a year. And he bolted probably every third or fourth time. While I'm like, I was re traumatizing both of us every time I got back on like, Why did I do that? Well, because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. Because listening to me,

Lynn: 28:12

are we supposed to get back on the horse? Yeah. And like you said, You weren't listening. But isn't that what we're taught the right thing to do is push through, make it happen? overcome the obstacles? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you know what to do be controlled. You know?

Kathy: 28:33

Yeah. Yeah, I was in Yeah. And I remember even just, when I got bucked off, I landed hard on my left hip, I was really glad it didn't land on the pipe fence, because that would have been a different story. But I remember being so glad. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have to get back on like, at least sit on the horse. Well, I couldn't even sit on the mounting block. There was no chance I was gonna get on the horse. And I was so relieved that I was like, in too much pain. So there's my body's screaming again, you cannot get on the horse. And so yeah, and even the other day, it showed up, that push through, push down your feelings, ignore them, like like, No, you don't need to have feelings. I was out playing with my horse Bentley. I was just writing about this this morning. Playing with my horse Bentley, and we're really working on saddling with consent. Like Not, not. Not okay. Yeah, do what you can do so that I can go out and like let's just get through this. So I can go play again with my my horse heard that, you know, is this okay? And does he say yes? Not an absence of No. And, and I thought, Okay, so we've got this in this little space, but we don't really have it so much in the big space. What happens if we put everything go into the big space where he really has even more of a choice? Would he choose to use this because that's really a Yes, right. It's been something choose? Yeah, choose it. And he's like, I'm not even going to choose you right now. It sounds like okay, it back. Yeah. Used to just like, oh, he doesn't love me. But I'm like, you know, that's not that's not how they think. And that's not a healthy relationship for us anyway, that if if he loves me, he'll do what I want him to do. That's not a healthy relationship. No, it's not. So I thought, Okay, let's go back to square one. And I really had to approach him with and make sure that I was paying attention to is, is what I'm doing and how I am being. Does that make him feel good? Is it worth is it worth him staying around and being with me, because I feel good to him? Not just because I do good things for him. You know, like, I'm not giving him cookies and snacks. And I'm not trying to scratch him and make him feel good. Like, it's not my job to make him happy. I don't think but, um, but I want to. But I want him to be able to find that safe space in him. Yeah. Right. And so again, I find it in me, it makes it easier to find it in him, then we can find it together. And that's, that's really the goal. And that's sort of what I'm trying to play with out there. But it's so easy to just say, Oh, it's just not that hard. I mean, you've been saddled how hundreds of times before it's not that hard, it's just to do it. But at some certain level, that ruptures the relationship with him. And it also ruptures my relationship with myself because I'm betraying myself, because of all the times that I'm just repeating the times that I've ignored what i've what I'm feeling as well, right. And he needs to do the same thing.

Lynn: 31:36

So how have you come to this place? Because I know very few people writing or working with horses that have reached a place of being willing to work from this level of consent. How have you come there, and what made you choose to take your relationship with your horse here?

Kathy: 31:57

So you know, I've been doing this Equine Assisted Learning coaching thing for a long time now 1213 years or so. It has definitely been a journey, my own personal journey and my own personal journey of the way I work with horses because I used to, you know, I was following a method that I thought was kinder and gentler, you know, of natural horsemanship, but but when I look back at it now, it was just being dominant in a in a really nice way.

Lynn: 32:28

Yeah, that's what Yeah, added 20 call that out. And the podcast I did with her, she said that his methods are based on dominance using the horses nature against him.

Kathy: 32:36

Yeah. So when I when I I've, I've known about Tim and Bettina job of natural life midship for a long time, they actually introduced me to this work, and they've also evolved. And so I've gotten back in with them, and they are very trauma informed. Group, philosophy organization, I should say, all all of the above. And I remember taking one of their courses, and not really knowing how to apply it, because at the time anyway, it was very much to me very much based on an individual and I was doing more work with groups, like I would do group groups of sixth grade girls, ninth grade girls, fourth grade boys, that sort of thing. So I remember there was this one time, where I had this information, but it wasn't embodied yet. I didn't know how to implement it. And there was a there was a girl, a student who she was probably not treated the best at home, I probably, you know, she, I'm sure she probably was at least verbally emotionally abused. That's, that's what I would describe it now. I don't know that I would have said that then. But, um, she knows she had very low self esteem. And we were you know, we worked a lot with concept of pressure and when to apply it when to increase it, but we're going to keep it the same and when to reduce it. According to what state the person or the horse is in, in their like, what part of their brain are they activated? Yeah, so but I didn't really have that knowledge then. And so I remember having her you know, basically like encouraging her to get get firmer with this horse and get firmer with and with like directing people around because I knew that it would help her if she could, if the if the horse would do what she wanted to do it would give her a boost of self esteem. And, and at the time, I was still in that dominance mode. So I didn't see how it harmed the horse that much because again, it was dominance in a really nice way. But I realized hang on if she goes home and does the same thing with her parents. She is not gonna I'm not doing her any favors. She's gonna get a smack in the in the face or go to your room or some uh, you know, yelled at or whatever. And I was like, Ah, I was like I am. Like this is this is not this is not work. And so I kind of just started this journey about what should I have done there instead. And that you know, so the more I have gone into natural life and ship and realize that the same principles that apply to people apply to horses, and if they don't apply both places, you know, Annelle says, a good principle is a good principle. A good principle is a good principle practiced anywhere. If you can't use it with a horse, you shouldn't use it with a person and vice versa. And so while the techniques might be different, like for a horse, if I want to get his attention, I want to and make sure that I have consent from him. I'm going to put put my energy towards his hindquarters so that he has a choice to say yes, and I can see that he says yes, because he's turning his body towards me. Um, obviously, that doesn't work in Walmart, when you see a cute guy. So that's what I'm saying, like, the techniques are different, but the principles are the same. You might, you know, go up and tap someone though the shoulder and say, excuse me, or you might say, excuse me from further away and have to say in a couple of times before they hear, but so that's really what started me on that journey of like, really what is going to help people have healthy relationships with themselves so that they can have healthy relationships with others, and hopefully have that continue. And we've all got wounds and harms and damages that have been done to us and by us. And so to heal those places and find new ways to do it, is that's my goal.

Lynn: 36:46

That's, that's pretty profound. I really love that idea about the principles being the same. And a good principle applied anywhere, as it's a good principle. Because as I was in my journey, getting back on the horse, I was discovering it transformed my my ideas of leadership principles and my way with people. Because I began to see, really, you get to see in the horse, what we're doing to ourselves, without the extra judgment that we put on as humans, because the horse is showing us what safe looks like through their lens into their nervous system. And yes, through their own traumas, horses have traumas too. And so we're getting to see what that looks like. But without all the extra noise that they that we put on, because you don't see a horse in the corner beating himself up over making a mistake. He just leaves you. Yeah, like you said, I'm just gone over here.

Kathy: 37:45

Yeah, I that that's another sort of aha, that's become really clear to me lately is that, to me, it used to be that, you know, people would say, Well, why horses? Oh, because they're prey animals. And when he had they act similar to us and thought about it, I'm like, yeah, all that might be true. But now to me, the reason horses are so valuable, and why I really enjoy working with them and working with them with my clients, is because they don't have those stories, that they don't have the stories about themselves, they don't have the stories about us. Like they don't say that person is a bad person, because she's beating being mean to me. They just say, I don't feel good. I don't like this, I would like to leave or I will shut down or I mean, they so they are saying our nervous systems are similar enough that they will have a similar response. And so when people say your horses your mirror, it's not so much a mirror, I think as but it is a reflection of, of, you know, another person will have a similar response to you. And another person will have a different response, just like one horse would have one response and one horse. Yeah.

Lynn: 38:55

Well, and we have different stories about what things feel like but a horse is very in tune with how he feels. Yes. And we are not as in tune with how we feel, or at least I am not as in tune. I had to do a lot of work just to put sensation back on the front burner because I put it on the back burner. Sure shutting myself down because I didn't know what to do with the way I felt. Yeah. And so as I had to learn how to restore just even inner any kind of inner sense of sensation, it was a big deal. Yeah, right to come back to. Yeah, so it's, you know what, what's coming up for me as I think about well, first of all, I read the book, have you read the book, an immense world? Does that ring a bell? It is a book about how animals perceive the world. Oh, cool. And he dives deeply into the science of how spiders with multiple eyes experience the world or scallops that have all those blue eyes, you know, or how bats are able to do echo like location talks about a guy who can do this too. There's a guy named Daniel Kish that Learn how to echolocate as a young child because he had to have his eyes removed when he was three years old. He just figured out how to echolocate. So imagine somebody you know, doing what a bat does, I mean, he walks in, drives bicycles, and goes freely through the woods because he can click and find where the trees and such are.

Kathy: 40:18

Wow, and, and

Lynn: 40:21

all these different ways, many of which fall in the unseen world. For example, what's interesting about sound, sound waves, and how far they go in the ocean, for example, like they travel 1000s of miles, or the whales can pick them up from one side to the other, or whatever. And yet, we are so insistent in our experience of we want proof, we want concrete. And yet we're making up all these wild stories in our head. Yeah, and that's a really good point, right. But what we what we don't recognize is the horses are sensing us, because they have better sensors than we do. So they have sensors without stories, meaning as not sensors, like stops, and you know, like the TV people telling you not to watch a TV show, but the sensors, Sen. SLR, right, yes, better senses than we have. Yeah, so that's where they are reflection is like, Oh, wow, look what my energy is doing with this horse. And then you also have to ask what else is going on for this horse? Yes, because it's not 100%. So that's not personal either way.

Kathy: 41:33

Right? Yeah, it may be that, that there's something over there in the in the side of the pasture that I'm not even aware of. Right, that he's that he's wary of. And if I take that on and sell the say, tell myself the story, oh, he's afraid of me, or oh, he's nervous today. And now he's being a bad horse? Well, I'm not gonna get very far. Because being judged,

Lynn: 41:55

that's exactly right. And, you know, I have this desire, as I was getting back on the horse, I was looking for a sugar daddy. Meaning I wanted the horse to get that I was afraid and that he should take care of me. And when I really stepped back to look at it, it's like, wow, is that not weird? Because, like, why would he ever conclude as a prey animal, by the way, that the woman on his back, needs him to take care of me? Yeah, he's not going to conclude that if I'm afraid his job because of the way his sensors are, his nervous system is, if I'm afraid his job is to think there's something to be afraid about. This is how herds work. I watch another horse and he says, Ooh, there's a, you know, bear over there in that pasture, I better get my head up and pay attention.

Kathy: 42:46

Yeah, that's interesting. So it makes me think another thing that we say in natural life and ship is that there's people, animals, whatever, will connect for one of three reasons. And only one is appropriate. Oh, so the reasons are to control to be controlled, or to connect. And, you know, and I think my first gut reaction is, Well, I certainly connect to control like I owe that I like, you know, I like to things to be in control. I like to know what I'm doing. It makes me feel smart. I don't like to feel stupid. So, yeah, control is something that I can own. But do I would I really connect to be controlled? Like, that seems kind of victime. But yeah, there are definitely times when it's like, I don't want to make the decision. Somebody else make the decision. Yeah. That's, that's basically that and, and neither one of those are appropriate. And so healthy connection is when we're, you know, you can have your choice, and I can have mine, and we can choose something together. Yeah. And so it's just but but horses will do the same thing, right? A pushy horse is in there, because he feels safer when he's controlling. And that's why it is right, we feel safer, giving up control or taking control, because that's in our bodies. Mm hmm. And the horse that just says Fine, I'll go ahead and do whatever you want me to do. The compliant horse is also not a safe horse. He doesn't feel safe. And I'm like, I don't want a compliant trail horse who's going to keep going and going and going and saying, well, the bridge is broken, the bridge is broken and me going, Oh, just go over the stinking bread. I'm not listening to you. Exactly. Right. So

Lynn: 44:34

well, you know, I just I, you've read my book, dancing the tightrope, and as I looked at this, this is brilliant. I wish I'd known this before the book because it would be in the book. Because what you're talking about is control to control is power over to be controlled, has power under and those are two sides of the tight rope I talked about and then on the on the middle is the power with which is worked together on the tight rope, which means there's a given time As we operate in delicate balance in harmony, that's what dancing the tightrope means. Yeah, so that's a perfect analogy. It's the cleanest one I think I've ever seen about what I really mean when I say dancing the tightrope, right, because there's always two sides of the tightrope. Mm hmm. And, you know, it's not like we don't want control in the world, it's just that we use it as a really weird tool. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of places, by the way, where control is very, I like I'm a pilot, we want air traffic control, I really actually want somebody to tell me when I have landing clearance, because if they don't have been in uncontrolled airports, you can easily land on top of each other. There's an accident, there's several accidents a year of where planes didn't pay attention to where each other were, and they have a wreck over an airport.

Kathy: 45:47

Yeah, but still, isn't that I mean, that still is a power with right. So what I need you do to do this, so that I can do that, so that the whole community of airplanes,

Lynn: 45:58

it is Italian with but it's, but there's a control feature, right? Sure, sure why, and it is, it's And what also happens, and this is where a lot of pilots get in trouble. The person who's flying the airplane, the pilot in command is responsible for that aircraft, air traffic control will give you things to do that will kill you. Like I was flying. And we live, we live here in the mountains near Asheville. And they gave me a go south command to keep me clear of traffic going, I needed to turn around to go north to go back to the airport. And they put me between the clouds and the mountains. And I kept flying clouds because I don't have an instrument rating. And the mountains are solid. Yes, there I either was going to crash or not see. And I had to come back when they said turn right, you know, to go to this place that I would have been really squeaking it and say, I need an alternative. This is putting me in a place that I can't fly. And some pilots will have would have done that anyway. And that's where crashes happen. They just do what air traffic control told him to do. In other words, they allowed themselves to be controlled. Yeah. Others actually, by the way, will forget to say to them unable Can I have another thing and take control? So that's right. So that is just as just a perfect case study of how that that works.

Kathy: 47:14

Yeah, it's really important to communicate.

Lynn: 47:17

How have you applied that idea and natural life and ship ideas into your own life practice? Oh, gosh.

Kathy: 47:30

Well, I just, you know, I think, oh, there's a million ways, I guess. Clients, kids husbands? No, I'm trying to think of a good example. So you know, if my son, for example, calls and says and asked me asked me for advice, he's 28 years old. He's a smart kid. And you know, my first because I'm a I'm a recovering people pleaser. My first reaction is, oh, he loves me, let me and he's asking me for my advice. Let me you know, give him all of my wisdom. Right. And then he goes, Oh, yeah, thanks, mom. And then I then I'm annoyed when he doesn't take my advice, right? How many times?

Lynn: 48:16

Okay, every mother on the planet. And every TV show on the planet is written around this in some form or fashion.

Kathy: 48:24

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So even just yesterday, I was talking to him, and he was having this, you know, a really big challenge. And I just thought, I can't own his problem. I can say, here are some ideas, I can coach him through thinking about some things differently, and then leave him with that. I mean, even yesterday, I like last night, I wanted to go well, you know, are you are you doing okay? And I thought, No, that's a little bit too codependent. I'm, I'm checking up on him to see if he's okay to see if what I did helped. And it's not up to me to make to, to see if it helps. It's up to him to implement it. And, and, and to have the courage and the vulnerability to come back and say, Hey, Mom, I need some more help. So that's what I was really proud of was that he asked for help. And that I did not own that. And I kind of let it go and said, Nope. I've given you what I can go take that and see what you'll do with it. And yeah,

Lynn: 49:28

that's a that's a phenomenal example. And I think one that a lot of people can relate with. I know I can. Yeah. And with our children, it's especially hard because I I personally felt especially as an early mother, that my daughter was a reflection of me. And I really I had the pleasure of pleasing big, big people pleasing, wanting approval needing and if she did something that did not look good to me And then I was I got into this really weird, you know, cycle of trying to control her so that she would look good so that I would look good. Yeah.

Kathy: 50:10

Yep, that sounds very familiar. Yeah, so trying to change that could because that's in our bodies, right? Like, that's how we grew up, we do it without even thinking. So if I can start to notice that, that sensation in my body about what it feels like when I'm kind of getting in there a little too much and getting a little too enmeshed. Then I can go hang on. Like, let's push that away. Like that's his his problem, his his thing that he gets to deal with, and I can I get to deal with this part? And yes, there are going to be like a Venn diagram where they overlap a little bit. But if they they look like one circle, that's not a good, that's not good.

Lynn: 50:51

Yeah. Because that that word enmeshed is is a critical one. And don't we do the same thing sometimes with our horses where we micromanage them. And it's amazing when how they move when we let them move, the way they're made to move. They all know how to walk, trot and canter. Yeah.

Kathy: 51:08

Yeah, they do.

Lynn: 51:09

So yeah, letting them like do that. And riding with them is the most amazing feeling in the world. But I I've only had that experience, you know, probably 10% of all my times, if not if even that.

Kathy: 51:21

Yeah, yeah, for me, fear gets in the way, you know, something, and especially after I got plucked off, you know, my confidence is not what it was 2030 years ago. Or even Well, five years ago, wasn't that great either, but it's definitely not what it was 10 years ago, just because I'm older, it's gotten better. And but I'm but I still have that, oh, he's gonna bolt in my body, even though I'm writing a different horse. Yeah, so. So those neuro drills have helped with that a lot. And, and just then getting to know the horse on the ground so that we trust each other so that he knows that I'm listening to him, I know that he's me, and we're listening together, we're having a conversation instead of you need to go over here or else Or him saying, I can't go over there and you can't make me or you can, but I'm gonna go and I'm gonna be shut down. Like, that's a big huge rupture of the relationship. And then I gotta go and fix it. And then I feel like a failure. So I don't want to do

Lynn: 52:18

that. That's it. That's that's the cycle. I called in my book, The mistake cycle, right? We just get in that spiral. And that to me, the reason I, I call that a flywheel is because, as you said, it's in our bodies, and there's years of stored energy of that cycle of, I try something, it doesn't work, I feel like a failure, I beat myself up. You know, I go back and try again. But every time every time I have that sensation, I think it's bad again, as opposed to something to correct. And it just, it has so much energy in it, because we've been doing it for so many years. And that's really all a flywheel is is something Jim Collins used it in a business context. And I really loved it. It's, it's where you put a lot of stored energy, but to change it, you have to put a lot of energy in the new way. Yeah, build up enough energy to do it the new way.

Kathy: 53:08

Yeah, so the way that I've figured out how to do that, for me is through that and through the embodiment that I practice. So I discovered when I, when I first took this this, what was it a webinar or online conference workshop, you know, we literally moved our bodies backwards into space, you know, focusing our attention on ourselves. And then we moved our bodies forward into space, focusing attention on on the other, you know, something else in our environment or on the screen. And we did that a few times. And I think, anyway, what, what I realized was, I would go back and I focused on myself, that's not a problem. And then when I went in forward, and I focused on someone else, all of a sudden, I thought, Oh, crap, I could feel that I had left myself behind. Really, I could, I could feel it. And I thought, Ah, this is, this is not how it should be. This is not healthy thing. So all I doing was kind of this shell of me doing stuff. Yes, it's a happy, warm, inviting shell, but it's not really all of me. And so, so when I'm doing that sort of enmeshed thing, I'm kind of doing that same thing. I'm sort of leaving myself behind, or else I'm, I'm saying to the meeting something from the other person, like can I get some of your love? Because I don't love myself enough. So maybe if you'll love me, then I'll love myself enough. So can I have some of your love? And I'll kind of like, you know, like suck it out of them. That's that's when I not really suck it out of them. But like that's, that's the feeling that I get in my body. That's like, Yeah, I'd seen some of what you've gotten this this is this is really manipulative, if I'm honest about it, but it's something it's also something that I need. But then I'm not a safe person. You're right for them or for me. So I've realized, I've, I've started to notice, when do I start feeling like that. And okay, then I need to actually literally, so I will bring my body back in space or focus on the back of my body, like between my shoulders, or in the in my sacrum or that my lower back and like focus on that part of myself. And it will bring me back or bring sort of like my whole spirit, I guess you could say, I don't know, back to me and kind of gather my pieces back up. And then I'm able to kind of feel like I'm a little bit more solid. And then I can relate to someone or something in a whole lot more healthy way, where what they say, doesn't like poke at my significance, or my importance or my safety to myself. And so, so that's what we do in those embodiment workshops is, we literally move back and forth in space and down and up in space and move our bodies narrower or wider. And it creates this, this really simple math that is infinitely nuanced, which is what I love about it, because you can be really like, Oh, I'm in Shadow Mode, or I'm in thriller mode, or I'm in sponge mode. Or you can kind of like well, there's a little bit of pillar in my sponge. And I need to do a little channel with that, like, how and how does that work. So you can take it as deep as you want it or it can be really simple, but who just kind of like there's a million shades of blue, there's a million little nuances to it.

Lynn: 56:29

Or this picture that came up for me, as you were describing that is when you leave yourself behind, that creates a little hole in you, which you want someone else to fill. But if they don't fill it the way you need them to which how can they How would they know that they're poking at you, and then you're pissed, that the space that you gave them to fill with something that you don't need anyway? Didn't work the way you wanted

Kathy: 56:54

it to? And then I'm not fooling myself. And then you're

Lynn: 56:57

not fooling yourself, here we are back to being full of yourself. But isn't that so much of all our dynamics,

Kathy: 57:05

and our relationships? You know, I'm

Lynn: 57:07

keep I'm going into places where I can see where I've exactly done that where I expected someone to fill my spot, you know, this this hole that I decided to let them fill, or sometimes my activities, you know, my waterskiing or riding horses, or what I did this last week playing pickleball where I hurt my hamstring, because I was pushing myself knowing what full well, I shouldn't be out there right then because I was a little too tired. Yeah, yeah, I pulled a muscle in my hamstring, which is much better. And not nearly as bad as it could have been. But that shut me down from a lot of other things I could do for a couple of weeks now. All because I was trying to fill a little hole that I decided was not rather than be full of myself.

Kathy: 57:53

Yeah, trying to get that outside approval, that external locus of control, like you were talking about.

Lynn: 57:58

Exactly. Exactly. Well, I have seen a shift in you just in the time I've known you. So well, but But you know, a lot of times we feel it for ourselves, but other people don't. But I actually have been able to see. And of course, I'm reading a lot of your writings, not not all of them, because how could we always consume that all the writings and everything we've all gotten that world? But it really has made a shift? And how have the other people in your world seen you? Have you noticed the people close to you noticing a difference? What's the what would you say? As far as how it looks as you made these shifts? Because this is to me what real personal growth looks like?

Kathy: 58:43

I haven't asked anyone, particularly that question. But if I think about my kids, for example, for specifically, I feel like like I have a little bit more. Like I'm getting a healthier relationship with both my kids. Like I talked about the one with my son, we've always been quite close and easy to talk to. We're very similar, you know, for better or for worse. And so I really kind of understand him. Well, I feel like and so sometimes me feeling like I really understand him makes me want to feel like I can just jump in and give him all the answers. And so for me to not jump in and give him all the answers. But it feels like some growth to me and the fact that I feel like he feels safe coming to me that I'm not going to just shove some stuff down his throat feels like a growth edge to me. My daughter, she's much more like my husband in a lot of ways. And I've haven't really felt like I've really understood her very much. So I kind of tend to probably back off, like, well, you know, she'll come to me when she needs me or I don't know what to give her so I don't know. So I sort of end up offering a whole lot of nothing probably, or I offer what I offer to my son which is you do this do that. And she's like that in order for me. But so I guess I feel like a shift has happened with her when she invited me to go to a concert with her a few weeks ago. And we've just been to it this last weekend. And we had a great time. You know, I don't know that we've ever don't gone on just a little mother daughter trip before. That wasn't like, you know, a college ship that had some specific purpose. And you know, we were gonna learn something from it, because that's me, I learned things. We were just simply going to have fun. And so that was that was a fun and interesting experience. And I just really enjoyed being with her.

Lynn: 1:00:42

That's that's so cool. What did y'all go see?

Kathy: 1:00:45

We went to the see the Dixie Chicks. The chicks. Dixie

Lynn: 1:00:48

Chicks. Yeah, that sounds like fun.

Kathy: 1:00:50

They were a blast. Yeah, I

Lynn: 1:00:52

bet they are fun. Was it hot?

Kathy: 1:00:56

No, it was. It was an inside cause?

Lynn: 1:00:59

Oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, every concert I had like a two year concert rent 21 and 22. I did a lot of concerts. They were all outdoors. Oh, yeah. So there's a lot of sweating in the summer. But what what a change with your daughter to just enjoy being with her. You know, I, you know, a lot of people know the story of my daughter and I and she because of the crazy mother that was a largely because not 100%. But largely because of the crazy mother that I was, my daughter went through a really serious addiction, and will be the first to tell you that my healing helped create a container for her healing. Not that every time when we need to be healed. Can we get our parents to help us? Right, what a gift you're giving your daughter because as you change, and he or you are creating a container.

Kathy: 1:01:54

As a reminder, that's that's a good reminder. Thank you.

Lynn: 1:01:57

Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. Well, I'm curious on I'm wondering if there's something that you could like I'm I'm super curious. And I know people who are listening are like, well, what are these moves? Is there a move that Kathy could teach us? Right now, just to give us an idea of what are the I can't remember exactly how you described it, but the neural real neuro drill? Is there? Is there something without an assessment somebody could do? Or as an assessment required? What would you? What could what could somebody do if they're starting to say, well, I'd really curious as to how I can not leave myself behind? Or how I could begin to make connections in my body just at a baby step that I haven't made before. What does this look like? In other words, is there a way to give us a teaser on that? Or is it something that people need to just really? Yeah,

Kathy: 1:02:48

no, sure. So instead of a neuro drill, though, let me let me go because that to me is very top down. Okay. So let's go from the bottom up, let's let's go back into the body. That's really where we experience things anyway. Right? Okay. So, an easy, an easy thing to do is say something is maybe you've got a thought that's ruminating in your head, you're like, I just can't get it out of my and so you're now you're feeling like crap, feeling crap. I shouldn't have done that should have done that. Oh, Baba, Baba. Or,

Lynn: 1:03:22

yeah, I know, lots of people have that.

Kathy: 1:03:24

Yeah. Or maybe somebody somebody else has said something to you, and you just can't get it out of your head. That's, that's tends to be when I use it or, or maybe you're trying to figure out is this thing mined to take care of, or maybe you keep wanting to take ownership of something and you know, you shouldn't, those are a couple of, of ways that you can do that. Or apply this, I think. And so to be able to differentiate yourself from that thing from that thought, or from the thing that you want to go do that seems like a habit. So you can literally, you can do the sitting or standing. But so just stand I'll just describe how I'm sitting because I'm sitting right now. So I'm sitting and I'm feeling my, my seat on the seat, I'm feeling my feet on the floor, feeling my back up against the chair. So I'm in this down kind of sensing place. So it's not about action. I'm down and I'm sensing and I'm also back in focusing on myself. So that's why I can feel the back of my back on the on the seat back. So focusing my attention on myself and being aware of what am I experiencing and I'm going to have my hands fairly wide. Like I'm holding something like maybe I'm holding a big bag of potatoes so my hands are out, out in front of me and and other people. So right now I'm kind of feeling like this thing that I'm wanting is for that. Let me rephrase this. So this is some starting out in what I call what we call cradle mode. And so this is this place of self compassion. And so in what's in what's in mind, what I'm holding in my arms is maybe me, or part of me a hurt part of me, it could be. It could be a situation that I'm concerned about. And you know, even if it makes me mad, I'm like, I'm cradling my anger, like, it's okay for me to feel angry about this, or sad about this. So being curious about what I'm experiencing. And then maybe I'm thinking, or I'm feeling like, This feels good. But something else is trying to intervene. And so I will just literally put my hands out. So my hands were facing, My palms are facing towards me in this hole. So now, so face them outward, again, hands kind of on top of each other. So you're still making that cradle like you're holding a baby, or Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. And so that, you're just going to rotate your wrists out, okay? And feel, feel that, that, that what's outside of that sort of ring that you're making circle, whether you're making with your arms, is outside of you, okay? And then maybe just turn one hand back in towards you. So one hand, one palm is out, and one palm is towards you. And so you're now you can kind of simultaneously feel that cradle, and feel that you sort of have this barrier, or this boundary between you and whatever else is bothering you. And see if that doesn't just just notice what that would happen. So I'm curious what happens in your body when you do that.

Lynn: 1:06:52

Um, the sense I got was a very clear boundary between what's mine and what's not.

Kathy: 1:07:00

Yeah. And so so then what what we put what we could play with next is, okay, this. So this is where what you do with your body informs what you feel with your body, like the shape of your body, literally, that you're doing. So can I now notice that what does that feel like when I have that diff that clear differentiation between what's mine and what's not mine? And can I very gently and very slowly maintain that? That sensation, that feeling in my body? And put my hands down so that I'm not walking around the grocery store like that, for example? And can I take that feeling with me now? Maybe out to my horses? And you know, what is their challenge? And what is my challenge and that sort of thing. So you can and that's just one, one little quick exercise that we dipped

Lynn: 1:08:00

our toe in? That's a very, I liked the idea of cradling. That's a very cool exercise. And it was very tangible. And actually, once my hands came down a little bit more difficult to find that boundary line. Yes. So obviously, that's work I could probably spend some time doing because that that in a way to me, we talk about when we're leading a horse, for example, we have a bubble. And I've heard it said we need to really believe in our space, or they will come into it. And this is a great way to teach someone to really believe in their space. Yes. And of course, I'm working, you know, more with clients in the corporate world. But the kind of way I see people getting in trouble with believing in their space is when their boss asks them to do things first, that may not be appropriate to do you know, skirt and ethics line. Take on work that's not theirs. Take on two jobs. For the price of one. I've had that happen with several clients, you know, but if they don't believe in their space, they'll do it. They'll say yes to everything.

Kathy: 1:09:08

Yeah, for sure.

Lynn: 1:09:09

This feels like an embodiment of when some I have a lot of people asking me, How do I say no, as I wrote a whole book on it. But you know, I don't know how to say no, well, you have to first know that you have the rights of the space around you. And you can start with saying no to things that are interfering with your space.

Kathy: 1:09:30

Yeah, so even before we do an exercise like that, we start out with finding what is neutral. And one of the ways that I play around with that is literally putting my hands out as far as they go and like, this is my space and it's up and it's around me and it's in front of me and it's behind me and almost like I'm the yolk inside this egg and that's my space. And just in being aware of what is that boundary similar to what's you No feeling that when when you have your hands up like that, yeah. But to have to have that sense. And so when I when I did all those writings on taking up space, that, you know, that was very, that was a very tangible thing to me. Like I could feel that in my body, like, how much is my what is my space? Do I need to make it smaller? Do I need to make it bigger? Does it need to be more diffuse?

Lynn: 1:10:24

Yeah, that's, I have not read that whole series. But that's something we should point people to is on your website, which will give people here shortly. But there is a series of articles on taking up space and what I from what I looked at it, it's like worth the read. People should go there and and check out to check that out for sure. Because I feel like you said we have to start with neutral. And I feel like this is such a beautiful starting place for anyone trying to sort out what to do with ruminating diets, what to do with what's mine and what's not what to do with places that I feel injured. But maybe I invited the injury. Hmm. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, it's

Kathy: 1:11:12

hard to accept that I might have invited the injury. Because I don't think it's something we do consciously. Oh, no. But just like before, like, if our nervous system needs that approval, and that love to feel safe, we're going to do whatever we whatever you think we need to do in order to get that as a way of surviving. So that's, that's, that's probably the number one amazing, awesome thing that I have really learned and embodied a whole lot more in the last year since I've really been diving into this nervous system thing. Is that everything we do, we're doing it for we're trying to connect, we just might not be doing it in the right way. And we're doing it to get our needs met. Uh huh. So it like and I mean, and I think you've said this before, or something similar about that, you know, every behavior has a positive intent. Doesn't mean it has a positive result. But I'm doing something, because I need something. And while it might not get my needs met it it did at one point. And so my body and my nervous system is saying, Well, it worked before, let's keep trying till it works again. Yeah. And finally we go as an adult, or like, it does not working anymore, we need to find something new.

Lynn: 1:12:33

It's complete. I call those out of date strategies, you know, and, and, and this is why sometimes we see grown ups that look like little children. If you see the see through the grown up body, their behavior is more like a seven or eight or nine year old. And I see people that are in their 40s 50s 60s 70s. Yeah, acting like little children, because they're still getting their needs met without dated strategies from leftover from their childhood. Yeah, I remember when Brene Brown talked about this in her seminal TED talk. I think it came out when that in 2010 that her TED talk was in Houston. It's it's kind of the one like it became one of the biggest TED Talks ever. But she said, when she went to go see her therapist to see their therapist said something like, we're gonna have to unpack your childhood or something. And Brene Brown was like, Oh, hell no. It's like, we're all going I don't want to go back to my childhood. It's like, well, yeah, but your childhood is living inside of you. And you haven't grown it up yet.

Kathy: 1:13:32

Yeah, you're it's here with you anyway.

Lynn: 1:13:34

There's no way to get around it. You know, you just have to start understanding how these patterns where they were born, so that you can interrupt them and create a better a new pattern. A new pattern is better. Yeah. So and you did a TEDx talk?

Kathy: 1:13:50

I did. It's been a while now. But yeah, it was, How long ago was that? That's 10 years ago now 10 years ago?

Lynn: 1:13:57

And how did doing a TED Talk? affect your journey? Like, what did it do for you? Because I've done this myself. And I will say, for me, it created an impetus to get incredibly clear on a message I thought I was already clear on. And I was not clear. Yeah, I'm still getting clear on the message idea. And that was seven years ago, or eight years ago.

Kathy: 1:14:23

Yeah. Oh, gosh, that's a good question. So if I think about what the message was, well, actually, the message in my TED talk was, if the message is clear, it doesn't have to be loud. Oh, interesting. That's literally the message. Like, that's how I end it. I think, you know, it's like something about harnessing the Whisper. Okay. But actually, as I look back at my TEDx talk, now, I because I've been thinking, I've been writing this origin story for this retreat that I'm running in October. Meaning how did I get to the point where this is the retreat that I want to run and how I want to run it? I am going back and realizing all the places that and all the times that I thought, oh, that sounds interesting, I think I'll do that, or, Oh, I'm gonna go over there because that looks like fun things that I haven't really given a whole lot of conscious thought to. But somehow my body knew that that was a good thing to do. Those are the times that have brought me the most joy, and have taken me further down the path without a whole bunch of trying really hard. You know, there's just been an ease and a flow to it. And I would say that was one of them. I was I wasn't out to try to do a TEDx talk, I didn't even know they existed. At the time, I found out they existed because they were gonna run one at my son's school. And I thought, oh, it'd be fun to go watch some. And I found out that our local university was, was looking for speakers. And so I thought, I'll do it. And I did. So then, but then I got there. And I realized, I'm the only person in all of these I know, there were 10 or 18, or something like that speakers. I'm the only person not associated with this university that speaking. Wow. And then I was like, Oh, my, like, do I even know what I'm doing? And then then it dawned on me, oh, my gosh, people from all over the world might hear this because they might they're, you know, they're gonna put it up on the dead, whatever. Yeah. And I was like, oh, so I did just that. Let's let's just go do this, or here, and we're gonna learn something from it. So it was it was an interesting, interesting thing. I tried really hard to be present. Yeah, there was definitely a place where I completely froze. Like, I forgot what I was gonna say next. And I just stood there. For it felt like 10 seconds, it was probably three. And I think, well, they can because I think I thought even thought don't say anything, they can edit this out. And they did. And sure enough, within, like I said, probably two or three seconds, even though it felt like much longer. I got my train of thought back. And I had I continued on, but it was it was a very good experience. Very interesting. And I enjoy looking back on it and thinking that that was another one of those things that my body was just drawing me to.

Lynn: 1:17:27

Yeah, well, that, that brings to mind a couple of things. I'm in the process right now of learning. I'm Anna 20s, animal communication class. And it's a year long apprenticeship with her. And you know, she really believes that we can talk to the air. I mean, she does talk to the elders, there's no belief. And she's teaching us to do that. And one of the things that we learned early on is something she calls the sway test. And you can use this with a menu of food, you can use it with an activity, but it's this, sort of ask yourself the question here or there, and then see which way your body moves.

Kathy: 1:18:06

Mm hmm. And I've not heard it quite that way. But that's interesting.

Lynn: 1:18:10

Yeah. And she, we did a weekend event in March at her place with her Mustang, she has curly mistakes. And they were very cool. And I was not going in to do work because I have a tendency to be the first to go do things or try things. And there were I don't know, well over 15 of us. And I was like, I'm gonna give somebody else a shot. Because I was one of the few people who was close to home, everybody else travels, was traveling and I was like I can I can come back and do this, somebody else or whatever. But she had us all do this white test, and I got such a strong sway. And it was from a very particular horse. And when I walked up to that horse, it was clear that she would cry. She had called me over. Mm hmm. And it's like, okay, so this is this goes both ways. This white test, I feel it and so did she. And that's like, Okay, well, I'll go I'll learn to go with it. So I've, I've not learned to use it to the full extent of its power, but you just described exactly how to use it. If we'll pay attention.

Kathy: 1:19:12

Yeah, I've heard more of it. I've used it more in a way of like asking a question to get a yes or no and like my yet like, show me my Yes. And I find body goes forward. Yeah. And, but it's interesting to think about it. Like, I'm my now my mind's gone all sorts of other ways that I could maybe, you know, do like five a decision to make three things out in front of me, I can just which way does my body want to go?

Lynn: 1:19:40

Yeah. And learning how to like read in an honest answer from your body and not a contrived answer. Yeah, because I have a very powerful mind that can contrive things.

Kathy: 1:19:50

I know. I know. There's times that I don't trust myself because I'm like, is that really me? Or is that my body telling me about, you know, telling my body? Yeah, can

Lynn: 1:19:57

I can I can I trust? Yeah. Is this an ally? In response. So that was one thing that came up as I was listening to you and the other about the being on stage and so forth. How close on the talk that you finally gave how close to that was the one you intended to give her that you had practiced before you got on stage?

Kathy: 1:20:17

It's been a long time. And I think it was, it was still pretty close. I mean, I definitely rehearsed it. I worked with a speech Coast coach to get it right and clear. I'm really glad that I did that. That was very helpful. And so, yeah, I mean, I didn't do any ad libbing or anything like that when I was. Because I know that when I give speeches, if it's a 45 minute timeframe, if I plan for 30 minutes, I'll fill up the 45. Because I'll add the rest of it. And I thought, I can't do that on this thing. I've got to be tight. And yeah, because I think I they gave me like 10 minutes.

Lynn: 1:20:56

Yeah, it's tight. I, this was the thing with me. When they asked me to first do the TED talk. I said, Look, if you'll give me a microphone and audience in 10 minutes at a subject, I will keep you all engaged. And they were like, That's not how this works. Yeah, yeah. And so I had a, I had a coach, I had a team of the people who were the producers that had us sort of, we started with just what are your ideas? You know, what is your talk going to be then as we honed it, so very much going on the stage, we knew what my speech was going to be, and it was pretty dang close to the one I had practiced 500 times before getting up there. But what's on my mind right now is on practicing for a tick tock, huh? So that's the Teach, inspire, connect talk, which is TEDx or Ted style at the podcast Summit coming up in November, right. And that's a very different kind of environment than a TED Talk. Because it's very people are very much showing up in the flow of energy. And I have a topic and I have a speech prepared. But I'm also very clear that it could be that I get up on that stage. And in the moment, that might not be the talk I need to give. Yeah, you know, and I watched last year when I was there, several people miss Sean Cook, most notably, probably, who, as they got on the stage, just went into flow. And then what they said was exactly what needed to be said in that moment. And it was almost completely what you call ad libbing, which I saw, in his case, specifically channeling. Yeah. I don't know if I trust myself to be that good of a channeler in front of 250 people.

Kathy: 1:22:33

Yeah, it's, well, you know, practice enough offstage then onstage just as the different location.

Lynn: 1:22:39

Yeah. Well, and that's the idea is, I know, I'll be fine with what I've practiced. The question is going to be well, I know that's the right speech to give on that day. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be able to be I'm going to be fine with it. Because it's not going to be anything I haven't talked about before. And I've got stories and they're pretty tight. The stories have tight. Yeah. And they're, and they're very illustrative. They're like, there,

Kathy: 1:23:02

you've got you got great stories. And

Lynn: 1:23:05

that's because I met you the way I remember it. Did I meet you in story Skills Workshop? Or was it the writing and community writing and community? Yeah, but story Skills Workshop is what brought me into the writing and community. So okay, yeah. And so we kind of alluded to the fact that you've writing all these amazing things on your website, your blog, and so forth. tell people how they can find you and then I have a final question for you as we close. Okay, tell them about how to find you how they can work with you all that good stuff. Okay.

Kathy: 1:23:35

They can find me at Hurd wisely. Leadership coaching.com So it's heard like horse herd wise, leadership coaching.

Lynn: 1:23:45

That's a great name by the way, herd wise, I love it.

Kathy: 1:23:48

Oh, thank you very much. And they can work with me, in person or online. So I've got several ways to go under click on programs. There are the four main options that I offer people. The first and easiest way is to sign up for my free monthly embodiment workshop. If you go to programs, that's the easiest way because the signup link changes each month but I do run one free for it for you every month. And it's that's where we're exploring that going back and birds into yourself and down into sensing and into acting and that sort of thing to get people an experience of what it is to be in your body because so many of us are completely clueless. I was myself not too long ago I feel like then there is a I do one on one coaching. So depending on if you're local or can be local, they can be here in person or you can do it on Zoom. It can be with horses or without horses. It just depends on what you're looking for there. And and then the I have a two day intensive where I This was mostly designed for those people who wanted to be working with horses, but had to come in for a short amount of time. So can we work online for three sessions? Can we work together with the horses for two days. So they have here I've got a place they can stay. And, and then, and then a follow up session after that. But what I caution people about doing the two day intensive is that you know, the work that I'm trying to do is to help you heal your nervous system. And that doesn't happen in two days. So if you're a, oh, I got to do this. So I can hurry up and heal. I'm going to say that's not for you. Because it's not something that we can hurry up. It takes the time it takes and sort of the more we hurry it kind of like me getting on that horse over and over again, we just kind of do more damage to ourselves. We betray ourselves when we don't listen to the rhythm of our own body and the healing cadence that it has or wants to have.

Lynn: 1:25:58

That's, that's profoundly wise words. And the truth is that desire to hurry up is part of your nervous nervous systems. survival mechanism. Yes,

Kathy: 1:26:08

yes. Yeah. So in my one on one coaching, I'm really happy. I mean, people are like, I don't want to slow down like, you. We I know, you don't want to, I didn't want to either trust me. And there's times when I still want to go zoom. But in order to go zoom, we have to slow down. Yeah. Then when we zoom, we don't leave ourselves behind. So then

Lynn: 1:26:28

that's the principle of go slow to go fast. Yeah,

Kathy: 1:26:31

yeah. So there's the monthly workshops, the two day intensive, the one on ones, and then in October, I'm running a very small maximum of six women retreat for four days. Which is, it's hard to put words around it, because it's just a feeling. It's this container that we are creating with, I'm creating this with this other woman of space, and to learn to trust yourself, and to listen to yourself, and to do it in a group setting. So that we're not alone. Because I think we because we heal in groups, we heal in relationships. And so that's what that is, there's some conversations that are at the bottom of that page, if they want more info about so they can listen to what we've been talking about in the past nudges in the body and nature and

Lynn: 1:27:22

practice. Yeah, yeah, this is how I do a lot of my retreats is I go on a feeling and you know, we have an agenda at the beginning. But we we go with the group, the best retreats I've ever been to are the ones that, you know, aren't like, they're not like the camp director style, where you have to be here by this time. And, like, if we do an event, sometimes I take people out, like, I've done whitewater rafting, for example. And there's a time that the boats gonna leave, the bus is gonna leave to take you to the boat. So we have to be there at this time. But mostly we chat, we really go with what is needed. And sometimes that means sessions are shorter or longer. I sometimes send people out into the woods to journal. You know, you just I like that. I like the way you're talking about the way you go through the field. With that. Yeah. And is that are there any seats available for people to sign up? If

Kathy: 1:28:16

this? Yes. Okay. Yes, yes, we've got seats available, for sure.

Lynn: 1:28:20

Good. So we will make sure that that's all in our show notes. But for people listening, remember heard wise, leadership coaching.com, where all of those things are available? Yes. For them to go see and to read, and I'm going to do my best if I can't make the August monthly embodiment program, I'm going to get the next one on my calendar because I want to come to it.

Kathy: 1:28:40

Okay, well, maybe I'll start setting them up further than one month. And if because I kind of I'm just, again, it because it works for me. That's the other thing is I've changed things around like, what does everyone else need to know? What works for me? If that resonates with someone else, and they are able to come along? They I would love to have them? And that's a that's great. That's the sense of the retreat, like I'm looking into how do we, how do we get into our heart and take up space? So that's the name of the retreat? It's the heart space gathering? How do we get into our heart and take up space? And if that's a question that you're wrestling with, or intrigues you, then I invite you to come along and explore with us because it's not like I have a million answers, I might just be a little bit further down the road. And I can point you in a in an in a direction or offer a resource or a tool, but it's ultimately your journey. And that's for you to own that is healthy for you. And it's healthy for me. That

Lynn: 1:29:34

one of the insights I've had in the last, I can't tell you because a lot of times my insights have been bubbling I can see them in my journals, maybe even for years. But it is that all I do when I'm working with someone is help them find what they've always had. I have nothing to teach you now, but I can help facilitate your journey to find what you are Ready? Have you've had it all along? Yeah. I love that. And it's very empowering because it's like not mine to own and it's not mine to control. It's mine to, I'm just kind of here to be alongside of you to say, Hey, look here. Yeah, have you? You know, if you walk through the woods with someone that's really good. They'll say, Hey, have you noticed that over there? Or did you see this plant? Or did you realize there's a deer hiding behind that tree over there looking at us. And to me, the journey to the self is a little bit like that. Sometimes it takes another guy to say, hey, there's some there's some cool things in these dark woods. You don't have to be afraid.

Kathy: 1:30:38

Yeah, yeah, to show us our blind spots, because we've all got them. We've all got them. I mean,

Lynn: 1:30:43

we literally have a blind spot in our eyes. But we have. But more than that, it's really hard to know what we look like from the outside in. So it's helpful to have a guide that can just point that out to us and hold the mirror up. So what, what would you have I always like to end my podcast with my guests having the opportunity to offer a piece of advice, ask a question. Make a suggestion, given what we've just talked about. I can imagine your theme. But your thing might be like, but what would you have for my audience as we close this conversation?

Kathy: 1:31:17

Okay, my favorite quote that I have. It's right here in front of me. It's by Gupta. As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live.

Lynn: 1:31:29

As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live. Isn't that word trust really is. What a theme? Yeah. Yeah. You need to add that one to be behind you to Kathy. What you're facing, but I can't see that.

Kathy: 1:31:48

Yeah, yeah. That's a good one.

Lynn: 1:31:51

Gartner has come up more than once in this conversation. He came up and one of his quotes came up in Christine dexus podcast as well. No, yeah. Yeah. As soon as you do something like this is certainly something about beginning the first step. It's about commitment. I can't remember it right off the top of my head.

Kathy: 1:32:10

Oh, is it something like, as soon as you take the first step, the universe Calista. Helfer suffers?

Lynn: 1:32:17

Yes. offers all sorts of support to help you along the way, which I have found to be eminently true. Yes. Me too. If again, I'm aware and will open my eyes to the help that's coming my way. Yes, yes. Yeah. Well, this has been an incredible treat. And I can't believe any time has passed. I feel like we got on two minutes ago. And here we are well over an hour. And so yeah. This is why our conversations a lot of times go. So thank you so much for being on this podcast, Kathy.

Kathy: 1:32:48

Thank you. I really appreciate it. It was it was a blast. It was

Lynn: 1:32:51

really a blast. And for those of you listening, if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends. If you're interested in hearing more from me, you can find my subscription to the coaching digest it when current.com Easy subscribe button. And if you want to leave me a voicemail, check out that voicemail button on the right hand side, you can click it and leave me a real live voicemail, and I will answer every one of them. Other than that, we will see you on the next podcast. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.