#65 Anne Bartolucci: Let Go of Perfectionism and Sleep Better

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I am Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Anne Bartolucci. She's the author of a book called better sleep for the overachiever. Our conversation touched on lots of the parts of that book title. We talked about sleep, for sure. But I would say the bigger theme was really what it means to be an overachiever, I count myself as one of those. I've been that way my entire life. And I think you'll find in this conversation, she is as well. So we kind of are both a couple of experts talking about what it is to be an overachiever and what the benefits and the costs of having that personality type are. One of those, of course is lack of sleep. But the other thing we do as overachievers is we are hard on ourselves. We are perfectionists, we fear failure, we try to get everything right. And we hate making mistakes. So throughout this conversation, we had a really vibrant conversation about what to do about those mindsets, and how to make things a little better for ourselves. I'm sure you're going to enjoy this conversation. And if you like this conversation, please rate it and share it on the podcast platforms. Love your comments as well. Want to get the word out there because I think if we can all have a little bit more peace of mind, we have a better world. Enjoy this podcast. And welcome to the podcast.

Anne: 1:54

Thank you so much land. I'm so happy to be here.

Lynn: 1:56

Well, I was excited to get a chance to talk to you because you have many dimensions to what you do. We'll start with that you help people sleep, but you also help people. And you're really when I say people, you've narrowed it down to overachievers that would be me. I'll raise both hands. Yes. And most of the people I work with are as well. I think maybe corporate America is made up of 99% overachievers, I don't know where everybody else is, but we sure have a lot of overachievers in my life. But then you also work with things like procrastination. So I, I want to start by asking you, what made you choose sleep as the thing you wanted to focus on with all the training that you have in all of your background? What made you choose sleep?

Anne: 2:47

No pun intended, but I kind of fell into it accidentally.

Lynn: 2:50

Okay, you're gonna hear me there must be a fall involved. Tell me more?

Anne: 2:53

Oh, yeah, so not not an actual physical fall, when I was getting ready to apply for my pre doctoral internship, which is something that all of us who do PhDs in psychology have to do. So it's a year away from your program is intense, like an intensive clinical experience. Sometimes there's research associated with it as well. They're very competitive, to try to get and I knew I needed some experience outside of my little psychology clinic in the program, the clinical psych program at UGA. So I emailed out to alums, and one of the ones who got that to me was Michael Bruce, who was at that time, the Clinical Director of the Sleep Disorder Center in Atlanta. And since I was in Athens, it was an easy drive to come over. And we met and he said, okay, yeah, we can work together, you know, one afternoon every couple of weeks, but I really liked the work. It was both behavioral and medical, sleep medicine, I learned how to read sleep studies. And by the end of the academic year, I was working with him two days a week. And so then I did get a pre doctoral internship placement and below Rock, Arkansas, which was a delightful year, I didn't realize that living in Little Rock would be that much fun. And while I was there, they set up or they had me essentially set up part of my rotation on the Behavioral Medicine track was to work with the sleep clinic there. And from what I understand that experience is still part of the internship. So I'm very happy about that. And then when I got back, Mike was getting ready to move out west to see his fortune as media personality, which he's done great with. And so I was able to just slot right into his job after I finished my dissertation. And so, it was one of those lovely things in life where just the path was laid out to me for to follow.

Lynn: 4:54

Yeah, because of an inquiry that you made. Yes, but it sounds like Have you also knew to grab that inquiry? In other words, when the opportunity came you knew to take it? Is that something that you've always been able to do?

Anne: 5:13

Sometimes? yes, sometimes no, I do have a pretty strong, intuitive side. And if I listened to it, yes, it typically does work out pretty well for me. Of course, I also have a very stubborn side of I want what I want. And so sometimes those two sides end up being in conflict.

Lynn: 5:29

Yeah, well, I can certainly identify with that. Well, and there's an element also of of luck. Because I'm guessing that had you showed up to Michael Bruce's place and had it not work out, you wouldn't have continued to go. So you had some level of competence. But there's also some level of luck that you ran into someone like him. And I had I was not familiar with him other than he wrote the foreword of your book, say a little bit about what his background was, or what made him such a good mentor for you.

Anne: 6:02

Oh, yeah. Mike is Mike is great. We're still in touch. Occasionally. He. He did go through, he was also a PhD from the clinical psych program at UGA. And he, I guess, he decided to go into health psychology as well. And we just really hit off personality wise. And he was really interested in teaching and basically sharing his love of sleep. Hmm. And sleep medicine. And he's just always been super generous with his with his time, when I've, you know, when I've had a question for him, or like, Hey, I'm looking at going on podcast, can you help me with this? And he's just been very lovely and interested in helping me with my career. And I've just, I'm just thrilled that he's been as successful as he has as well. Yeah.

Lynn: 7:01

So when did you know you were going to want to be a psychologist is I guess, are you a psychologist? Is

Anne: 7:06

that I am. Yeah,

Lynn: 7:08

that's what I thought I wanted to verify. But like, did that was that something that came to you later? Or did you fall into that as well? Or did you know it when you were young? What was the

Anne: 7:17

genesis? Oh, no. When I was young, I wanted to be a marine biologist to work with sharks.

Lynn: 7:22

Oh, you know what? I wanted to be a marine biologist until I found out I'd have to work with sharks. Nevermind

Anne: 7:31

I've always been fascinated by sharks. No, I, I put that fur aside when I thought about okay, so yeah, red hair for your skin cancer. Again, cancer having to work a lot outside was probably not the best match for me physically. And I also ended up going to a college that did not have marine biology program. I ended up getting a full tuition scholarship to honey didn't college and Montgomery, Alabama, which great education, great experience, met my husband there, although we didn't get married until much, much later. And I started off as a math and music major, because I'd gotten a scholarship in the math department. And I was also very interested in music. That was how I had gotten there, because I'd met one of the music teachers at a piano competition. Hmm, yes. So yeah, I guess that was another, you know, taking an opportunity. And it ended up that I took a interdisciplinary course, I think it was my sophomore year. And psychology was part of it. And I thought, Oh, that's really interesting. The human mind is fascinating. People are fascinating. Like I'd written fiction since I was younger. So I think I was already inclined to think about people and behavior and why they do things and motives. And so I dropped music to a minor. Also, because my poor bony butt and lower back couldn't take all the practice time on piano that was required, and was undeclared psychology as a second major at the end of my sophomore year, and my advisor looked at me and said, You really hate spare time, don't you? I said, Yeah, it's okay. And it was fine. Like I took 18 to 21 hours each semester. I was in college. I was okay with it. Yes. Because I love so that's a lot. Yes. But I love learning. Yeah. And I would have stayed perpetual students had, you know, finances loud. But I ended up graduating with a double major in math and psychology. And then I'd also gotten into the clinical program at UGA. Which those are very, very hard to get into. So I was very happy that somebody accepted me. And off I went and when they were interviewing me, I was applying to work with a certain Professor almost like now who has since retired. Working on alcohol and aggression. Of all things. And his two students who came to lunch with me and him and our program director said, okay, the program director is going to ask you why you want to be a clinical psychologist? Don't tell her it's because you want to help people, because that's what everybody says. And I said, Well, that's not really my answer anyway. I mean, I do, but it's not my main thing. And so when she asked, I said, Well, you know, I'm coming from a mathematics background. And so I love puzzles. I love problem solving. And people are the most interesting puzzles of all. And apparently, that was a good answer.

Lynn: 10:34

It sounds very true as well. And you know that, I'm thinking back, you said, you took 18 to 21 hours and my freshman year of college, my first semester, I actually took 18 hours, and did not think anything of it. Like, I was, like, 18 hours, and they were like, this is going to be too much. And I'm like, I'm still gonna have a lot of time. And I said, No, no, this is going to be too much. And so I took it, I made straight A's, I made straight A's in college, except for one, B, I'll still I still resent my instructor for not pushing it.

Anne: 11:06

Okay, so what was your B class and then then I'll tell you my B class, it was

Lynn: 11:09

accounting, because I'm, I'm a math whiz myself, and I was also screaming fast on the 10 key adding machine. So I was also a screaming fast typist, and thank God, I did not go to I missed the bus for typing contest, or I might have become a legal secretary instead of a CPA, which is what my first career was.

Anne: 11:28

Gotcha. Okay. So my B class was sightseeing and ear training. And, yeah, and that was just basically coming up against the barrier of my physical ability to be able to do it. So that was a good lesson for me that you just have to accept.

Lynn: 11:46

I've never heard that class before. What is it? Sights seeing

Unknown: 11:50

sight singing and

Lynn: 11:52

singing and ear training? There now they connect. Okay? Yes,

Anne: 11:57

I'm an awesome sight reader. That's pretty much how I got through piano like my entire life, like I could get by with minimal practice, because I'm really good at sight reading. However, I can't do anything by ear, I can't play by ear. And beyond the basics, I can't tell you whether it's, you know, a minor seventh or augmented fifth or anything like that. So it was yeah, that was definitely just yet again, against the, my, my physical ability. Yeah. Well, those

Lynn: 12:29

are two very different brain functions, aren't they? Yes. Very. I play piano myself. And I also have some saying a fair bit. And I think the only reason I've been able to be in choir and sing is because in my church choir, when I was probably second grade, this instructor pulled me aside and said, Lynn, we're going to help you find the notes because evidently, whatever I was thinking was,

Anne: 12:59

oh, that's a cute way to put it. We're gonna help you find the notes.

Lynn: 13:03

For me, yeah. And he sat with me after class for a while and plight notes and then said, Now you sing it and play the note said, Now you sing it. And I will never forget it, because that's how I learned how to hear and then reproduce notes, so that they matched. And it gave me a much better ear as a result. But I think about what would have happened if he hadn't done that boy, I would never been able to sing. And I was never good at sight reading with like, I can practice a pace, but I could never really sit down and get really close to playing anything beyond a simple piece. Without practice. Yeah, I think every church musician on the planet is a great sight reader, right? Because they have to play lots of things very quickly. Yes, definitely. Yeah, that's quite a gift. So that was your B. That was maybe. Yeah. And how about before that? Were you always like an A student? Where Yes, yeah. And what do you think that comes from? Because I guess I spent a lot of time doing a lot of self awareness work about and I've never thought of myself as an overachiever as much as just an effective achiever. But, you know, I do think a lot of our socialization that happens young sets us up for later in life and sets our expectations. So where did it come from, for you to to have such high standards for yourself?

Anne: 14:29

Definitely, from my parents, and they both pushed me but they also gave me great examples. So my father is a biostatistician. He has a PhD in biostatistics, and he was one of the first college educated people in his family. So that side of the family is Italian immigrants, basically. Okay, so his grandparents came over and, you know, immigrants are often pushed to do well and basically prove that they that they can have a play He's here, whether that's really what's happening or not, that's the pressure that they feel. And so I always knew I wanted to be a PhD in something. And then my mother had gone part of the way through medical school and then ended up having to drop out due to health problems. And I think she also felt guilty because I was little at the time. So there was that also just, you know, education was really highly valued. And I was also rewarded for achieving and for doing well, and for doing it for making straight A's and yeah, that's definitely something that I've had to work with since which is not defining myself by my accomplishments.

Lynn: 15:46

Yeah. Well, you know, that pressure to prove that really does set up a whole cascade of actions, doesn't it? Yeah, my, my granddad emigrated from Germany when he was 12. Okay, yeah. So I, when you said that immediately, I was like, Oh, I never thought about that. But I'm sure because he was, he was definitely a care of one of the characters that made me really want to do well, because it pleased him so much. Yes. You know, it wasn't a forced kind of thing. It just made him so happy when I did well. But I'm sure it came from some of that pressure to prove he belonged in this country. So would you say that, that that I call it a proving mindset. Sometimes when I'm working with my clients, would you say a proving mindset is something that is directly connected to overachieving? Yes, different people?

Anne: 16:43

Oh, absolutely. Because if you are not overachieving, it's like, What the heck are you doing? And I describe it in my book as just this sense of constant drive constant motion, I constantly have to be doing this. I constantly have to be doing that I have to be moving forward.

Lynn: 17:03

Yeah. And

Anne: 17:05

that definitely comes from the proving drive as well. Because if you are not proving yourself, then are you even yourself?

Lynn: 17:14

It becomes our identity. If if you don't watch it, doesn't it? It does. Yeah. Which is then going to lead to like you said in your book. Lots of other things, including not sleeping. Exactly. I want to pick up on that voice that you just used. Because you said if you're not overachieving, what are you doing? Yeah, the tone. Because I have self talk. I think a lot of people do. I don't think 100% of the people do. But I think most people that I work with certainly have a different kind of self talk. And it does tend to have a tone. And there's a bit of judgment in there, isn't there? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So how do we? What is it? Like? How do you work with people around that internal dialogue?

Anne: 18:09

Part of it is I am a cognitive behavioral therapist by training. Okay. And so some of that is looking at the thoughts and working with them and saying, Okay, what are you doing? Because a lot of the overachiever, like their favorite cognitive distortions are all or nothing thinking. Yeah, so you things black and white, good or bad. I'm either perfect or I'm a failure. And then also should statements I should be doing this, I shouldn't be doing that I should be at this point right now in my life, and I am not. And looking at those and saying, Okay, how reasonable are they and working with through a process to challenge them, and then also, to help them detach from the emotion around and bring that down? So that's one strategy. Another strategy is mindfulness. And I can definitely say that my own mindful meditation practice has helped me immensely, because I'm able to separate from those thoughts and see them as thoughts. I mean, I still look into them occasionally. Because yes, I am human. I have my tired days. I have my frustrated days. Yeah. But I can still most of the time you catch them being unreasonable.

Lynn: 19:20

Yeah. Well, you know, you just listed very rich territory. Many, many things you just said. distortions, the all or nothing thinking things are good or bad, perfect or failing. I call I call it shooting on myself.

Anne: 19:35

Yep. Good. Albert Ellis. There's also masturbation, which is another one of my favorites. I've not heard this one. masturbation, I must do this most servation That's so good. That's going in my list. Okay, yes. I cannot take credit for it. That was one of the things I learned. But yes,

Lynn: 19:52

yeah. But that's the thing we do to ourselves is I must, I must, you know, do these things. And And so then I heard you say you have people actually challenge those thoughts and see them. Now, how long does it take a typical person to go from recognizing those as Yeah, that's what I'm doing to that thing isn't controlling me anymore.

Anne: 20:16

And that's one of the beautiful things about cognitive behavioral therapy is if somebody comes in and really does the work, and does the homework, it's a matter of months, if not weeks. Really? Yes. So the way I was traditionally taught or taught to do traditional cognitive therapy is that it's 12 weeks. And when I work with sleep patients, it's even shorter than that. It's five to seven weeks, but spaced two weeks apart so that they have time to do things, we have time to start seeing results. Yep. Yeah, for a lifetime of these negative thoughts, these negative self talk moments. Oh, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons I really love doing what I do is that it's a way for me to make a big difference for somebody in a relatively short amount of time. Because of course, if somebody isn't sleeping, they're going to have a really hard time approaching their thoughts logically and rationally, because if you're not sleeping, the frontal lobes are a little bit fuzzy, you know, they're not really doing everything they need to do. And so they need to be awake in order for us to really work effectively with our thoughts. But it is possible to work with thoughts even while we're working on the sleep process,

Lynn: 21:34

I would think it would be essential because you know what, when I'm working, I'm working with overachieving executive coaching clients. And I always ask how they're sleeping at the beginning, because, as you said, if the frontal lobes are fuzzy, if they're not sleeping, there's not much else we can do until we get that settled. Because the foundation of everything, even, in my mind, even more than nutrition, although I think nutrition is also critical. Yes, I'm sure there's a connection with those two as well. But you also so with those type of thing, because it said you break the emotion away. And then with mindfulness, it looks like you also disconnect that the thoughts are made, because a lot of people think their thoughts are true, and that they are them. And that's two different things. It's my identity, and they are true, but neither is actually accurate. So how do you help someone? And I'm sure this is under the heading of mindfulness, but how do you help someone divorce themselves from those thoughts, aren't you and they're not even necessarily true.

Anne: 22:37

That is a process called diffusion or D centering, which is to pull apart the thoughts and then the tension that we're paying to them and the power that we're giving them. And so we do that through exercises, mostly, we also discuss mindfulness principles, such as non judgmental observations like okay, these your thoughts. You don't necessarily have to do anything with them. You can say, Oh, well, that's interesting. Let's approach this one with some objective curiosity and say, Oh, well, this one is doing okay. I don't necessarily have to hook into it. I had one patient who had this wonderful strategy of in the evening, when her negative anxious thoughts about sleep started cropping up. She would say, Oh, well, there's my nightly visitor again. You can sit beside me, but I'm not going to pay attention to you. And so a lot of it is, yeah, imagery, maybe personifying the thoughts like one of my favorite analogies from the Acceptance and Commitment Therapy worlds is the tug of war with a monster analogy, which is that you can choose whether you're going to play tug of war with that monster or not realize it's going to be there. But you have the choice as to whether you're going to pick up the ramp, or whether you can drop the rope.

Lynn: 23:57

You know, it's funny, because I had one of my coaches use that language, drop the rope many, many years ago, she said, you can just drop the rope. And I had later I, when I was starting to bring my coaching clients to work with me, I actually took a client ski. Oh, and so I'm a water skier. And she waterski when she was a child, but hadn't for a long time. And we took her out on the big lake where it can get very hairy. I say it's big, like, like, we're still really small, like, but it's it's very hairy, lots of waves. And we were turning around at the end of the like, and it just got where nobody should be holding on. But she was the kind of person she was an overachiever of all overachievers. And so she just went after, like hanging on and when we debrief later about different things and what was going on, I said, sort of like what was your water scheme, where you refuse to drop the rope and you got she kind of got hurt? Holding on and I said, you know, all we had to do was just drop the rope and then we would have picked you right back up and you could escape Some more, but you didn't have to ski through that. And she's like, I never it never dawned on me. I wouldn't have to do that like that. I could let go.

Anne: 25:09

Yeah, and I that you bring up a great point, which is as overachievers Yeah. We don't think that we can let go we get caught in that trap of I've put so much time and energy into this. I can't let it go now. Yeah, yeah,

Lynn: 25:23

we do that with time energy and money. Sometimes we can't let go and have an investment even though it's sunk cost. Exactly. And letting I use I once said, If I could, if I could bottle the ability to let go, I would, you know, save the world. But yes. Is there a key to teaching someone who has a tendency to hang on tight to their beliefs, to their thoughts, to their emotions to their old ways of doing things? Is there a trick to helping them let go?

Anne: 25:55

I don't know that it can be boiled down to just one tip or trick, I would definitely say like an overall mindfulness practice would be important. And it's not just oh, look, I have an app I'm going to do the exercises it's digging into okay, what are the principles that I am learning through these exercises, whether it's the non judgmental observation, whether it's being in the present, which is part of mindfulness, a lot of people think that's the whole thing. It's not it's part of mindfulness. But if you think about it, if you're holding on to something, it's because you are too caught in the past, or you're thinking too much about the future with and like, is this working for me right now? In the present moment? No, let me what are my options? Right? And also,

Lynn: 26:44

getting someone into the present moment to helping them find that very big.

Anne: 26:48

Oh, yes. And then it's also what are my options? Not what should I do? What do I have to do? What must I do is what are my options? And options helps to divorce the emotion from it.

Lynn: 27:02

You know, what it also seems like, as you said that the picture I immediately got the should and the must, are not ours. That's the voices of our parents, or their parents or society or whatever. As opposed to what are my options, which means I'm making the choice as opposed to pleasing that inner person inside my head?

Anne: 27:24

Oh, I love that. Yes, separating the shoulds in the muss which component is from externally. And the options are as taking control.

Lynn: 27:32

Yeah, that sort of that distinction between the internal and external locus of control. But I don't know that we often recognize how much of our thoughts and our emotions are driven by the need for approval, the what do other people think what would my mother say? And when I look when I shine the light on it for me, as I've grown older, especially, as I've shine the light on it, it's helped me say, Oh, that's not even for now. Like, my mom isn't here making the choice for me, right? In this moment, this is mine to make now.

Anne: 28:11

Yes, I've definitely found that when it comes to starting cyclop Academy? Because do I need to start up the second business? No, I have a very successful private practice. But as we were talking about before the call, I want to be able to help people more than one at a time, because I only have a limited capacity as a psychotherapist, especially tells the perimenopausal woman. And so I need to figure out if I'm going to carry out what I feel is my life's work my life's mission, I need to figure out how to do it more broadly. But it's funny that you bring up mother and parents because when I bring this up to my parents, they say it sounds great. But what about your practice? Mm hmm. And so that's something in real time that I do have to push away. Right and deal with. And that's something that I have had to really work with internally so that I don't self sabotage my new business.

Lynn: 29:11

Right, because they were some of your inspiration for why you have a practice in the first place. Yes. And, you know, that passage, to me, is a rite of passage of being an adult has nothing to do with age. It has to do with when we begin to own our choices, and recognize that they're ours and I know many people who've gone to their grave, never making that rite of passage no matter what age they were.

Unknown: 29:39

Oh, I 100% agree. Just thinking about people I've worked with Yes, across the age spectrum. And you're right, yes, sometimes that it very late. But the good news is that it's never too late.

Lynn: 29:53

Well, that's the news for all of us is and this is this is one of my passions. You know, the name of my business is creative spirits and I wish. And the three words mean something very specific, which is that I believe we're all creative beings, that we have this spirit that can get tied down and behind a wall of our protection. And then unleashed means let's let the wall go and be who we are true to ourselves. So that's kind of where the business, it really came from my art business initially, but that's why I go to market with that title now. But you know, I think about this a lot, because I don't also think it's a switch. But I do wish in our society, we had more rites of passage that sort of handed the baton over, where both the parent and the child acknowledge it's yours. Now.

Anne: 30:45

I agree that that is one of our big problems with society, with our society is that we don't have enough structure enough celebration around transitions. Mm hmm. And for a lot of people, they they do get it a little bit if they belong to certain religious traditions, like, correct. In the Catholic Church, we had confirmation that the Jewish people have there. But yes, those environments, those, you know, the Latin X community has their concern yeras, which Yeah, I always love seeing one of those because the dresses are so amazing. Yeah. But yeah, we don't really have anything and you know, even when kids go to college, which you would think would be one of those, but parents still hang on as long as they can't.

Lynn: 31:32

It's and much worse than before, because they, it's there is a fear of failure that is so pervasive in the parent, on behalf of the child.

Anne: 31:46

Oh, I have gotten so many conversations with parents is like, you need to let them learn. You need to let them have consequences. You can't fix this for them. Yeah, I had one funny incident where this was one of the times I was trying to go off caffeine, so a little foggy, anyway. And I went and I saw the patient was 90, and she was sitting in the waiting room with her mom. So I went and got the patient walked back to the office and then shut the door mom's face, because I didn't realize that she was calling us.

Lynn: 32:17

But probably very symbolic and a good idea.

Anne: 32:20

Yes. So there was a knock, like, Hi. Like, oh, sorry. But yeah, I typically will set limits with parents of teenagers. And definitely we have parents of adult, children, young adults, and that, okay, this is what I will share with you. And this is what I will not share with you can we agree on this. And that does give the child more freedom to be able to talk to me and I only see kids down to 15. I don't want to work with kids. And younger than that, because it's going to end up being behavioral contracting, which is not really my thing.

Lynn: 32:58

Much more of a three way, right? Yes, yeah, I have the same in coaching. That contract is between the HR person, the executive and me. And I've done that a lot. But almost all of my clients now are paying me directly. And generally, you know, it's one of those things I never had. I did have my budget eventually when I was working, but it's like, oh, yeah, it is so much more powerful to have a coach that's working directly with you. Yeah, rather than have that third party, who they have to answer to that's paying the bill. Yeah. Yeah. And 15 year olds have enough capacity to make their own choices, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, this, this, I was a helicopter mom and my daughter went through pretty severe drug addiction. And there was a moment with her. When she I found out she was back on drugs. For the second time that I had done enough work on myself and understanding addiction to realize that a lot of her behavior was based on her resentments towards me, so she was still in that should a muster, I'm going to make up for being a bad mom mode. And this was 2007 I believe, so many years ago now, 16 years ago, that this happened, but when I recognized that she was back on drugs, I looked at her in front of her husband, she was married at the time and his parents who were total enablers. And I said, you know, Jen, I know that I haven't been a great mom, and that you have a lot of resentments against me. And I'm ready to face every one of them. But if you think that killing yourself is going to hurt me, look again, because you're the one who will die. And I have a pretty damn good life. Now strong enough to live without you. Wow. So this is your life. You make the choice. Now. I left the house that day and was in tears because I thought that might have been the speech that killed my daughter daughter. She later said that was the speech that saved her life. Oh, good. Because she recognized it was hers.

Anne: 35:12

And that's the hardest thing for parents to say to towns, I can live without you.

Lynn: 35:16

Yeah. But I've, but I feel like let's back up to something not so deep. And it's the idea of yes and no. And I've begun working with horses to some degree. But I've long before I work with horses working with clients that said they couldn't say no at work. And I said, you know, if you're not able to say no, then you're not actually saying yes. Right?

Anne: 35:39

Or if you are saying yes to everything, you're really not saying yes to anything

Lynn: 35:45

takes 100%. Exactly. But if you don't have that option of prioritizing and choosing, then all you are is a little hamster on a wheel, looking like you're trying real hard and getting that approval. But are you really getting anything done. And so I've felt like that fell under the same topic with Jen, which is, if I didn't really make it that clear for her and put the choice in her hands that it would always be me running under her with a safety net, rather than her owning her own life. Now, for those who are listening, and you don't know this, either, but 16 years later, she is clean. Yeah. And her coaching practice is actually to work with parents to help them navigate the same conversations, because she's a proxy for their children. And parents that simply cannot imagine that that works. Need to hear from someone who said yes, it does from the side of the child.

Anne: 36:43

Definitely, yeah. And just to go back to the the fear of failure. Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be such a great skill to teach people is how to navigate failure. And I mean, that's why I have a whole chapter in better sleep for the overachiever on preparing for when things don't go your way.

Lynn: 37:03

You are saying my song, I wrote a whole book on it, too. Oh, awesome. I literally, I mean, dancing the tightrope. You How, how falling off a horse taught me about embracing pressure, fear and uncertainty. And the entire book is about what to do with when we think we're making mistakes and failing. And it is you're singing my song, because this is what if I could do it? And I'm continuing to do it for myself, I think of it as raising my pressure threshold. At what level can I tolerate mistakes and failure? Yep. It is. Maybe the biggest mental disease of our time, because the fear of failure is so pervasive, and so many people I work with that are incredibly successful, are debilitated by it.

Anne: 37:48

Yeah, they have that impostor syndrome, where it's like one misstep, and they're gonna find out I'm not who they think I am. Isn't that amazing? Yes. Oh, yeah. And I have worked with so many Yeah, high achieving people, especially women. Mm hmm. Where that is the thing. It's, you know, they're amazing, they've done so much. they've accomplished so much. And yet, they still have that core fear of, if I make a misstep, they're going to figure out that I am not this wonderful, amazing person that they think I am, which again, is putting the locus of control outside.

Lynn: 38:20

It sure is. And, and by the way, once they figure that out, and they like, are onto me, then I'd call it the homeless sequence, they're going to not give me good jobs, they may fire me, then I'm going to live on the street, you know, then I won't be able to pay for my condo, and then I'm gonna be living on the street. And it's like, all happens in a second. So nevermind, what would you like for me to do? I'll go do it. Just let me be a good girl. Yeah, whatever you do, don't tell me I failed. Yes. Yeah. So So what are the key highlights of your chapter on fear of failure for the people who are listening? I'm sure people are going Yes. What do I do? What would be your best guidance to people who are struggling with this fear?

Anne: 39:02

It's definitely tied with perfectionism. So the first thing I would say would be practice in perfectionism. Yeah, whether that's doing something you know, taking a class in something that you have no idea about, maybe you've been interested in, but allow yourself to go into not do well. Like my best friend convinced me to go do belly dance classes with her for a while, which is a lot of fun. However, I am not great at it. I can't do certain physical movements like I can't do the head slighty thing that just doesn't work with my neck. Yeah. So practicing that practicing being okay with it practicing thing, okay, I can still have fun even if I'm not doing this perfectly. Mm hmm. Finding fun is a big one. And then also the question is okay, not how did I fail but what did I learn? I think that's the key. It's what did I learn? Okay, this didn't work out what did I learn? So I use the example of, I did a book release with and it was a company, a marketing company that was helping me with it. And the book release absolutely tanked. Like okay, what? Where did we go wrong? And part of that was the time of year it was released, part of that was out of my control, because it was one of those times when Amazon was doing something funky with their algorithm. Oh, we're all at their mercy, aren't we? Yeah. And so at this, you know, it's like, okay, what can I control? What can I not control? What do I need to think about doing differently next time?

Lynn: 40:37

What you know, it's funny, because that idea. I think of that as having an improving mindset. So proving mindset versus improving mindset. Oh, yeah. Great. And when I was practicing for my TED Talk, many years ago, seven years ago, so I noticed we were getting a lot of coaching and feedback, and it was phenomenal. And I was hungry for feedback. The What I noticed is, I could tell you by watching how they took feedback, who had improving mindset, and who had approved the mindset, because the ones that had approving mindset took offense to the coaching that they were getting, and the ones who had an improving mindset, took it in and said, Oh, okay, I see that or, you know, yes, I'll take that. But no, that one won't work for me, you know, different, like, but they were very much listening and trying to learn. And that's when I was like, well, there is a very big difference here between the way people take these things, and I'm sure it boil down to their fear of failure. Yes. Absolutely. And then what happens in terms of sleep when we're talking about fear of failure? So how does that translate to, from daylight hours to nighttime?

Anne: 41:52

Oh, there are many ways. The big physical one is fear of failure, prompts a physiological response to let's say, you're faced with something where you didn't do as well as you thought you should, or perhaps you do get negative feedback. And that prompts a fight or flight response. So it causes heart rate to go up breath to get shorter, it causes adrenaline to be released from the adrenal glands. And it's, you know, then you've got that adrenaline racing through your bloodstream. And in those situations, we don't really have anywhere for it to go. Yeah, so it's

Lynn: 42:33

not being used to go do the fight flight. Exactly what it was designed for, right?

Anne: 42:38

Yeah. So yeah, if we can have it so that after people get negative feedback, they go run on a treadmill for a few minutes. I'd be really good. Yes. But what happens is that, yeah, that adrenaline stays in the body for a long, long time, which then makes it harder to downshift physically to go to sleep. So that's one thing. And then, of course, what happens when people have said to have very busy lives, as we all do, and they are going through their day after something like this happens, or maybe they find that they had a deadline, they didn't realize, but they're going, they're working. They're taking care of the kids taking care of the family, they get to bed. And it's the first time that they're quiet. What is their brain going to do? The brain is going to go pounce, oh, this thing happened. Let's go through every aspect of that conversation. Or think about how we're going to get to that deadline. And rather than sleeping, they're working. Oh, yeah. That's the reflection time. Yes. So yeah, not having, yes, not having that reflection time before bed, can definitely interfere with sleep. And so then what happens over time is, they then associate the bed and sleeping environment with being awake and anxious, rather than sleep. And for some people, you know, they're just so exhausted by the end of the day that they will fall asleep quickly. But then they wake up in the middle of the night. And then the brain bounces. So it can happen. beginning or middle.

Lynn: 44:11

I've definitely had Yeah, my brain has definitely pounced on me more than once. It's like, Yeah, I'm gonna solve everything right now.

Anne: 44:19

Exactly. But the problem is that one thing a lot of people don't realize is that yes, our frontal lobes have their own circadian rhythm. And they are less active at night and less able to manage the emotions that are coming through. And some people might come up with creative solutions in the middle of the night, but it's typically not what happens. No,

Lynn: 44:40

you know what I have found, because I've had this happen many, many times. I'm pretty good sleeper now because I've practiced over over the years with this. Not that that doesn't ever happen. It still does. But I learned that if I could convince the part of my brain that wanted to solve the problem now that I would allow it to solve it, while I was sleeping and give me the answer in the morning. And I can't count the times I've woken up in sort of that like alpha dream state kind of between sleeping and waking in the morning, when the answer would just be there. And it'd be like, Thank you for solving it without me having to know about it.

Anne: 45:18

Yes. Because what you did was you steps back from the struggle, you start back from the need to control every aspect of the process. Yeah, that okay, brain I trust you.

Lynn: 45:27

Yep. And the brain and that brain would give it to me. So, so have you ever one of the places where I started sleeping so much better has been in the last six months, since I started doing ice baths? Have you ever done an ice bath or talk to anybody about doing one for sleep? I don't even I can't even explain why. But it was like another level of good sleep after I did that.

Anne: 45:54

I have not. I'm yeah, my sleep work is definitely tied more into, say traditional scientific methods.

Lynn: 46:03

Yeah, well, there's a lot of science now behind the ice baths. I can't quote all of it right now. But I know there's a whole list of hormones, you know, I know it helps with dopamine levels, I know it helps with the fight or flight response and so forth. Maybe it just helps because you're exhausted from fighting off the cold after being. But I did my first true one in November. And all of us, there were 12 of us that did it together, reported much better sleep the next day. And I have a theory that I think it helps train the adrenaline response as well. Now, this is my theory, I don't, I can't quote the science on this. And I realize I'm talking to a scientist. So this is kind of embarrassing, but But what I think might happen is when you get through the first 30 seconds, which is the hard part, and you're breathing a certain way, so you're breathing forehand and eight out is the way we did it. It I don't know that it matters, what the rhythm is as much as that you have a rhythm that you are maintaining and not allowing the cold to take it away from you. Because that internal versus external locus of control, I think makes a switch. So all of a sudden, your body goes, Oh, we're not getting out, well, I better hit you up almost to a person, it happened at 30 seconds that I want. You can see the switch in their face. And then we'd stay in for two minutes. And what was interesting is almost to a person at two minutes, I'd be like, I could stay in longer if I needed to by now, as opposed to I can't wait to get out. Right? Which then I think says okay, that fight or flight response that happens when you get in cold water, it's not going to kill you. If you as long as you don't stay for sure. But your body thinks it will at first. It's almost like it says, okay, we can tamp down quite how reactive we are. Okay, and then I think when then when it hits us later, our body's already practicing saying, Do I need to respond or not? Maybe I'll wait and see. After 30 seconds and say, oh, okay, you're fine.

Anne: 48:10

Okay, so you're basically training yourself in distress tolerance. That's it. Yeah, impairing yourself with breathing, which we know if you're exhaling longer than you're inhaling, then that is a relaxation signal to the body. And then it's interesting that you say that you get warm. So I'm guessing what happens is that we are when you first get the blood baths like all the little blood vessels are going. Yep. Yeah, people couldn't see that, but it was clenching up. Yeah. And when you get past that first response, then the capillaries open, which then helps to draw heat out of the center of the body to the surface of the body. And we know that cooling the core of the body is a signal for sleepiness.

Lynn: 48:51

Oh, there you go. That's some of it. Yeah, and I and from what I've understood that it also helps cause the body to do something called thermogenesis, which, scientifically, I don't understand. But from what I understand, it does change the ratio of fat in your body over time from white, brown to brown fat. Okay, which evidently brown fat is more accessible to burn as needed? Okay, as fuel. So again, I'm not talking from a scientific standpoint, they're more like I go read it and go, Okay, somebody that I trust does it so I'll go do it. Right. But it's, it's enough that I've committed to continuing I've gotten in the winter I get in are like when it's in the 40 degree temperatures as often as I can, and then I'm going to get my own an ice bath. So that I can continue doing it because I do think but I think that cooling of the center might be another piece because that's the other thing is temperature of the room is a big deal, isn't it? Oh, yeah.

Anne: 49:48

Yeah, and well, getting back to the cooling of the center. I mean, that's one reason why a hot bath or shower before bed can be useful is because yeah, it causes the blood vessels on the surface to open up, which then draws heat out. Under the center of the body, so that's why a hot bath or shower maybe an hour before bed to give yourself time then to slide into sleepy time can be helpful. And then oh, yeah, and then temperature of the room. Yes, it is very hard to sleep hot.

Lynn: 50:16

It is. And if you're May, and I'm almost 65 And I started with the night sweats when I was in my mid 30s, and three years later, I still have night sweats. Oh, no, I'm, I think I'm just gonna, my husband keeps going. Oh, but when you get older, you're gonna be like, I guess I'm just still younger than sweating up the storm in the band. So yeah, we keep our room pretty cool. You know? So like, he sleeps under a blanket, or like three level levels. And I'm like, under one thing, which is kind of a cooling blanket for me. Yeah, it is hard to sleep hot.

Anne: 50:56

Yes. And luckily, there is plenty of technology to help to cool cool beds and cool sheets and cool mattresses or yes, those who need it. I'm thankfully not there yet.

Lynn: 51:05

We've, we've actually looked into it. But I've I've managed it pretty well. And I started doing the hot bath a few years ago before bed, and I just pretty much do it every night. And it's an amazing thing, because I hadn't really thought it that it was cooling me but somehow it does work. Like I couldn't argue in fact, sometimes I think I shouldn't be doing it because it's probably heating me out. But then I end up sleeping really well. So yeah. Yeah. Well, so one of the other things I've noticed, as I've been talking to you is like one of the things you do for people is it seems to me like you write permission slips.

Anne: 51:41

Oh, that's a good way to put it. Yes, yes. Oh, yeah, that's funny, because a lot of times people feel that I'm not reading them permission slips, because I'm like, you know, no screens an hour before bed, you need to have a pre bedtime routine. I'm telling them to do a lot of things. But yes, also giving them permission to not believe their thoughts to let go of things to be themselves to take control of the aspects of their lives that are troubling them. So that's, I like that. Maybe you need to have like a formal permission slip pad. But

Lynn: 52:17

I think you should, because as I was listening, I was like, you know, you are giving people permission to let go of the shoulds and go to ask what my options are. You're giving people permission not to be perfect. To play with imperfection, you're giving people permission to have some fun to actually go back into a learning state. You know, so I think yeah, I think you need a permission, I think that would be brilliant for your clients.

Anne: 52:45

Thank you. Yeah, also for me, too, and you try myself a few.

Lynn: 52:48

Well, you know, we always Okay, so here's the funny one. And and you probably I don't know if you've experienced this or not, but I've experienced where I'm the coach, there's a part of my brain that wants to go. So you should know better. Do better. Yeah, it's like, I'm still human. In fact, the things I coach on are the things I'm learning. Like, that's what helps me learn them.

Anne: 53:15

Yes. And I think we have the conversations in our sessions that are also the conversations we need to have with ourselves. Like when you are in a coaching or a therapy relationship with somebody, there is no escaping your stuff. There read it, is it No, you are going it's going to come out? And yeah, there's, there have been more than one time when you know, when I'm working from home, like I am today. And you know, my husband is around and I'll go out and eat lunch with him. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, I've said this thing to the client this morning. And he'll look at me go.

Lynn: 53:46

Yes, yep. And who meaning Yep, with that? Well, there's the same point that finger right back at yourself or whatever. When I exactly when I was in banking, we joke that if you have one finger pointing out, the other three are pointing back at you. Yep. And so tell me what you think of this principle of life. Because I do feel like this has been something I have noted, which is the things that bother me outside of myself, are the things that bother me inside of myself. And when I was teaching a self awareness class, people would often say, How do I get self awareness and I talked about ways in and I said, this is one of your most powerful tools, as a way into yourself is notice what bothers you and other people? Yeah, I found that to be true as well.

Anne: 54:34

Definitely. And what you're talking about is the union concept of the shadow self, which is all of those bits of ourselves that we don't want to acknowledge. We don't like we don't like them in ourselves. And we find ourselves being annoyed with other people for them. Which yes, that I actually have heard a union therapists say that when she did a workshop on shadow selves, the thing that they told other people to do is think, Okay, think about that top three characteristics that you really hate and other people. Okay. Now how does that How did those things play out in your life in your own personality, your own psyche? And there is your shadow?

Lynn: 55:16

Yeah. You know, have you did you ever say the book the tools by I think it's Barry Michaels and Phil Stutz Does that ring a bell? One of my clients actually brought it to me. And in there they have these exercises people do one of them's called reversal of desire. And there's another one, where you embrace like your 13 year old zip faced self. They use this example of the part you're in, I guess, it's like you're talking shadow. But it's a part of yourself that you've tried to disown. And it's like you visualize them in a really clear way. And then sort of, kind of like you were describing earlier, like with that monster, like letting it sit next to you or say, here you are, there you are. And you kind of say, Come on, and sit next to me. And in this particular case, what this client that told me about the books and it was dramatically different, how he was able to then begin to manage those parts of himself sitting himself that he didn't want to own.

Anne: 56:18

Your recommendation. Thank you. Yeah,

Lynn: 56:19

that's what you're what you're describing there makes me think about that particular thing. And there was a Jonah Hill did a Netflix special, I think it was called, what was it called? Stats, I think it was just called stuck. Okay. And it's about his therapist and how it has this Phil Stutz that wrote this book, how he changed Jonah Hill's life. Wow, I was I need to go back and watch that special again, because I think I got some good things out of there. As you can probably tell, I'm constantly looking for recommendations, tools, things that you know, I can use to help my clients. So talking to you, in this case, is incredibly selfish. Because as you know, I have a lot of I mentioned overload clients that need to learn how to sleep look recommendation for a podcast for them to listen to, which is often the entryway into these conversations. Yeah, so um, the thing that seems to be like, difficult for to me for high achievers, or maybe for myself, is on the perfectionism game. It seems like just as soon as I'm starting to break, embrace, being imperfect, imperfect, it just washes back in to try to be perfect again, without even realizing it's there. Any tricks for like, sticking with it.

Anne: 57:41

So give me an example of a time when you were trying to let go of perfectionism and it came back in?

Lynn: 57:48

Well, almost every time I'm trying to do something new with a horse. So it's like, I'm thinking, I'm a beginner, I don't know what I'm doing. And then I start trying to do it. And I can just catch myself, when it doesn't go exactly like I want, I can just feel that little error happen, which is I'm making a mistake. And that's, that's a classic example. And it's that little feeling, that's the problem, right?

Anne: 58:15

Or it's your reaction to that feeling. That's the problem.

Lynn: 58:18

Because the job was the reaction.

Anne: 58:21

Ah, no. So you have it very deeply ingrained in you, as many of us do that. Yes. It's one of the perfectionistic bargains that we make with ourselves that I talk about in the book, which is if I can do something, right, or perfect the first time, then I will be successful at it. Which of course, you know, the inverse of that is if I don't do something right the first time, I will never be successful at it. So noticing if that is what's coming up with that reaction, but then it's also noticing it being like, Okay, this is what I have been hardwired to do for 60 something years. Yeah, of course, I'm going to have this reaction. It's okay. I think about it. It's that maybe it's that 13 year old self that was struggling to do something to impress her grandfather, and it didn't work out. So okay, yeah, I see you. I love you. Let's go ahead and try it again.

Lynn: 59:18

Yep. I in my case, it's that feeling. I call it the damned if you do damned if you don't. So no matter what I do, it doesn't seem to work. And then I fall into like, it feels like falling into an abyss of not being able to do anything, right.

Anne: 59:34

Ah, yes, an overgeneralization. Yep. cognitive distortion.

Lynn: 59:39

Yep, exactly. This is never gonna work. I never gonna be able to do this.

Anne: 59:44

Yes, you know, and sometimes we need to indulge those moods, like, Okay, I'm gonna give myself five minutes to be to be indulging in this really bad mood and no, and stomp around and yeah, and then once that timer goes off, I'm going to get back to it. Because this is how I learned

Lynn: 1:00:00

No. Yep. And it's gonna sometimes suck along the way. But the thing that struck me about what you said is it wasn't the air, but it's the way I feel about the air. Which is it's like a double loop. Because the air is how I feel about the mistake. Yeah, that's the double A, that's the problem. It's the second part. Like, it's okay to make a mistake. It's it. The problem is how you feel about the mistake. So I need to change the way I feel about the way I feel about the mistake.

Anne: 1:00:32

Right? Because what the mind is doing, is it taking that kernel of truth? Which is that okay, I didn't do this right, and it's uncomfortable, and then twisting it and blowing it up. So the end up with a big emotional reaction, rather than one that's more proportional to the situation, right? Because if you think about it, if you're able to be like, Okay, this didn't work out. Just let them all at pass. Yep. And then get back to it. Yeah, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But what happens is, is like, I made a mistake, I always do this, I could never do this, right, you know, those distortions start popping in, I should be able to do this. And that's when we end up with the big emotional reaction, we end up

Lynn: 1:01:14

being stuck. And that's the over and under correcting them, because I often talk about, you know, making those s turns, but part of the s turn that we're making is the part that's needed to correct because maybe you didn't move the horse's hind quarters over. Maybe you didn't, whatever you were asking him to do. But the reaction I should be able to do this makes me overreact. Right? Mistake? Yeah. So there's two parts of that s turn, and we want to just make the part that's just the correction to get back into balance. Yeah, that's huge.

Anne: 1:01:48

Yeah, yeah. And we have the secondary emotions, because the brain is trying to protect us from the primary emotion.

Lynn: 1:01:55

Mm hmm. Okay, that comes

Anne: 1:01:59

right out of dialectical behavioral therapy is the primary and secondary emotions. And so yes, if you notice that you're having a reaction that's out of proportion, often it is a secondary emotion is like, Okay, wait, what's happening? How do we better deal with the primary?

Lynn: 1:02:13

Okay, so, so the secondary reaction is the one that's out of proportion to the thing that's happened? Because certain things should have a reaction to them? Correct? Right? Yeah. Because if

Anne: 1:02:27

you were able to get to the point of, okay, I made a mistake, and I didn't have any kind of emotional reaction to it, then you are either very, you know, more enlightened to the 99%. of the human race. Yeah. Or maybe you're not even human. But so, you know, that's part of that self compassion that I teach. Is that okay, yeah, frustration over mistakes is normal. It's okay. What do you do with it?

Lynn: 1:02:51

Right? Well, and it seems to me like maybe what I'm getting right here is like a mini session of what might happen in your psych up Academy is this. Yes. So tell me a little bit about this new thing that you're starting. We touched on it earlier. Your, you mentioned that you have your own, you know, sort of maybe even secondary emotions and the reaction to the people around you about starting this up. But it sounds to me like you have a true passion for helping people not be run by their fear of failure that comes from their own inner overachiever. And it seems like we need a lot of help in this vein. So what is psychopath Academy? And how might people learn more about that?

Anne: 1:03:34

Oh, thank you so much for asking. So I will say the seed of it was planted many, many years ago, when my husband and I were running. And he was trying, I was flagging, I'm not really a I don't know that I would say I'm not really a runner, but I'm not a competitive runner. And I mean, he really isn't either. But he was trying to motivate me by saying things like, well, you know, if you don't, if you don't keep up, you're never going to be able to meet your goals, and this and that, and the other and I stopped and I said, Wait a second, is this way your internal talk is? Because if that's the case, that's kind of sad, huh? I don't mess with the psychologist. So

Lynn: 1:04:18

because I can see what you're doing there.

Anne: 1:04:20

Exactly. And he said, Yeah, what is your internal talk? It's my internal talk that I'm running is imagining people telling me how great I'm doing and how awesome I look. And so it was that, that dichotomy and I realized that a lot of people do motivate themselves or try to move themselves motivate themselves by beating themselves up.

Lynn: 1:04:40

Oh my gosh, I can't tell you how many clients I have that do that. Rather than psyching themselves up, they beat themselves up.

Anne: 1:04:47

Yes. Which only perpetuates problematic behaviors like procrastination, right? Because then you end up associating accomplishing things with negative emotions which then make you is likely to do it in the future or make it harder in the future. So I, that was the seed, many years later. So at this point, you know, I've written and published 20 Plus fiction works. I've got my two nonfiction books.

Lynn: 1:05:18

And

Anne: 1:05:20

I thought, okay, how can I combine these two. So the first step was teaching a class through the knowledge tree on how to write a book to position yourself as an expert in crease practice growth. So for other mental health professionals, and out of that came some individual coaching clients, and a couple of consultation groups, with people who are writing books, and I thought, Oh, I have found my, my Nexus, I have found my area of passion, which is helping people to get out of their own way and bring their words into the world. And of course, as I was doing that, I ended up talking to a lot of people about procrastination. I've been talking to writers about procrastination for over a decade, actually, the the chapter in better sleep for the overachiever came from a presentation that I would give to writing groups. And so it just kind of grown and morphed into a course on overcoming procrastination, and at this point, you're talking about learning experiences, I found it's really hard to sell a self guided course to procrastinators. This seems like it would make sense right? To be kidding. But no, so now I have reconfigured it. It's a course it's also a half hour of coaching with me at the beginning, there's a q&a after the course is done, and then three months access to an accountability group. So there are some touch points, as well, to encourage people to actually do it and go through because I mean, I will admit, I have many courses that I have bought that I have not actually gone through.

Lynn: 1:06:54

Yes, I think we all have and during that I think a lot of us bought even more of them. Yes, but there have been some that I really did dig into. What do you think the difference is, is what makes us you know, because it's, sometimes it's procrastination that keeps us from going into the courses that we bought. But what do you what do you think, make someone especially someone who's prone to procrastination, go ahead and dig into something like a self study program or a self study program with some accountability like this.

Anne: 1:07:26

I believe it is knowing that there is a deadline and a timeframe. So one person that I bought courses from that I definitely did do the courses was John Truby. And that's because he only gives you access to the courses for a year. So I knew I had to. Yeah, I also did a self paced course through somebody who would, who said he would give feedback on work that you would send to him. And he ended up not giving consistent feedback. So I ended up dropping the course. But yeah, it was, you know, it was those idea of the touch points and the connection with the instructor. That was That kept me into it. And a little bit part of that is because I do have ADHD, I have you know, I've been officially diagnosed and I am treated. And procrastination is one of those things, that is something that people have ADHD do tend to do a lot, because we tend to get very easily overwhelmed. Mm hmm. And sometimes we just don't have that executive function store to get started.

Lynn: 1:08:29

Yeah, yeah, I can, I can imagine that. I have not been diagnosed with it. I have had my brain tested. And they said you, you sort of have some of the brain function that looks like you would, but you don't behave in an ADHD way. So they did diagnose me, but I'm looking at the things that you said. Because I think a lot of times it's you want to give somebody lifetime access and or something that is free. And what I have found is that, like you said, the deadline. And having an investment actually is what makes people show up. Like the programs that I have done are the ones that had deadlines within a timeframe that required an investment both of money and time. And, and in return there was value in there. I mean, I'm not going to do it for long if I start with a course and I don't see anything that's helpful. I'm moving on. But but things that could be the greatest thing in the world, but if it's not in a container or a context of deadlines and investment, it's not gonna I'm not gonna do it. Because I think I can do it anytime. Yes, I'll do it. No time. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's those are that's a very, that's very astute for that. So when does this start? Or is it possible for people to sign like, is this a date certain thing or if people sign up for it? How does it work? Because I'm sure there are people listening that might be interested

Anne: 1:10:00

because there is that coaching component and the accountability group component, I will keep it open until those things are at capacity, and then I'll close it for a while. So right now it is open. Okay. All right. So

Lynn: 1:10:13

if somebody wanted it, and let's just go ahead and tell people how to find it, we'll have this in the show notes as well. But how does somebody go find your psych up Academy, if they wanted to join?

Anne: 1:10:23

You can go to the website psych up academy.com. And right now, I do have that redirecting to my teachable page. And I'm also meeting with somebody today, because I'm setting it up on a different platform is well in so I can send you the link to that put in the show notes, too. So there's, there are a couple of ways to access it. I'm going to I'm trying to actually move off of teachable.

Lynn: 1:10:46

Okay, is teachable your learning platform? Yes. Yeah. I can't remember which one, I think I think if IK is what I have used in the past for courses, but I don't have any courses out right now. So but that's yeah. What are you moving to? I'm just curious.

Anne: 1:11:03

It's called revent, or ubnt. It's a brand new platform that it allows for a bit more flexibility. And also, it has a function that, you know, I don't have to do separate things on Zoom, eventually moving forward, which would be very nice. And also, from a teacher perspective is like after the setup cost, they don't charge you until you actually sell something.

Lynn: 1:11:24

Oh, that's helpful. Yes. All these you know, they're this new subscription world that we're living in, if you're not careful, you can look at your credit card bill and have 25 subscriptions between Netflix and software. And, you know, I've got a subscription in my world for like, my zoom, and Adobe, and the podcast, Platinum platform. All these different things are subscriptions. Yeah. Yeah. So people wonder why we sell ads. It's I don't sell ads. But you know, I'll pay for this out of my own pocket. But why people sell ads is because of that.

Anne: 1:11:57

Yeah. Seriously. It's yeah, it can definitely, really, truly add up. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah. But you were talking about the experience inside of academies. So yes, I, I describe it as compassionate psychology based solutions to get out of your own way, work with your brain and live your dreams. Because, you know, we've all seen the books, we've all seen the systems on how to get out of your own way how to overcome procrastination. And I have found that wall pieces of love may work for me. They don't always work for me all the time. And so I teach people to come up with a their own flexible system to be able to get things done.

Lynn: 1:12:36

Hmm. Okay, well, right, there is another piece that I think is essential, because if they are coming up with the answers, they're going to be more enrolled in doing them. I've heard it say, you know, which practice should you tell to coaching clients to do? And it's the one I always say it's the ones that actually do.

Anne: 1:12:54

writes, are the ones that they are the ones that they come up with, and that they want to choose. And so yes, we were talking about options. I'm all that giving people options and help them match that options to what specifically their issue is.

Lynn: 1:13:07

That's beautiful. Thank you. That's beautiful. So as a result of working with you, or reading your books, they'll not only get out of their own way and live their dreams, but they'll sleep better. And yeah, and with your sleep book, which say again, the title of your sleep. I know the first part is better sleep. And what's the subtitle or the next part of it?

Anne: 1:13:25

It's for the overachiever. So better sleep for the overachiever? Yes. I kept that one simple. Yeah, and there, it's available everywhere.

Lynn: 1:13:36

Beautiful. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all those good things. Yes. Excellent. So one of the things I like to do as we come to a close on a podcast, and I can't even imagine how many different things you might want to say to this question. I do like to offer the the podcast guests the opportunity to make a request of my audience or offer a piece of advice, maybe even a provocative question. But what would what would you want my audience to sort of think about or be able to do or, you know, it's sort of a chance for you just to speak directly to the audience. So what would you what would you offer the people listening?

Anne: 1:14:17

I would offer them to, or the advice to look and see how they treat other people and how they're more compassionate to others than they are to themselves. And to use that to adjust the language of their self talk, and bringing it back to that.

Lynn: 1:14:39

So you would have them speak to themselves in the kindness and compassion that they use with others. Exactly. That's beautiful. If we only all could do that. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's it is. There's something that happens when people move closer into us, my husband and I talked about this, when we first actually met, we saw a husband berating his wife, we were not dating yet. We just met, but we were wandering around a ski resort, which is where we met. And he pointed that out. And he goes, You know, I hope I'm never that person. And I said, Me too, because, you know, I've, I knew I had that tendency. And we've both had to fight that tendency of being less compassionate with each other than with a stranger. And this is the person that we live with. But as people come closer, it's almost like we have the right to treat them worse than we treat people on the outer circle. And I think that also comes back to that inner versus outer locus, Locus of Control, don't you?

Anne: 1:15:46

Yes, because yeah, if you're braiding somebody, it's because you're actually giving them control over your emotions.

Lynn: 1:15:55

Yeah, and I've actually heard one of my teachers says, they're, you're beating yourself up through them? Oh, yeah. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. And it's like, oh, yeah, beating up the other person through yourself. I mean, beating beating yourself up to the other person is it then it sort of says, Okay, now I really have to stop. But, you know, the thing is, I do believe a lot of times with our self talk, that's been what we put in the category of beating ourselves up, I think our surface intention is to get better at it. We just don't realize that that's not the way to get better at it. Like it's the way not to change anything.

Anne: 1:16:36

And I suspect that we invest in that because, you know, we all have the idea of the drill sergeant in our head, who is somebody who takes a bunch of amateurs, and turns them into combat ready soldiers. And we think that we need to have somebody in our head to do that to take us from that amateur state to that ready state. And, you know, we probably also experienced it as children either witnessed or directly experienced. And so that's one of those misbeliefs that we have to challenge is like, No, I don't need, I don't need a combat expert. I need a kind grandma, or you know, somebody who's going to nurture me into doing stuff.

Lynn: 1:17:23

Yeah, because the idea of having somebody encouraged us to do it. As opposed to telling us what an idiot we are, means you can do it. You know, I'm, I'm actually recalling a situation. We have this thing every year where the kids come and do like this. Like, it's like an Olympics for kids. And I was helping with the rice one day, I've written about this in one of my blogs, and I was running along with the kids. And we're talking, let's say five to eight year olds. And I had just heard this idea of my husband is waving at me. I just heard this idea of, you know, how to how to encourage so what I started saying to some of the kids was, Come on, you can do it, you can do it. And I was being very encouraging, right. And I didn't really notice any change in their running. But when I said you are so fast, so I spoke in present time, as opposed to oh, yeah, you can run fast, you know, it's almost like I was implying you can run faster was like you can do it means you're not doing it yet. Right? When I said you are doing it, they actually sped up another gear, like I saw, like the light go on in their head and another gear come in. And I had a ski coach one day I was. I've been in many, many ski schools learning how to ski better. And the coach said, Lin, it seems like the more I tell you what you're doing, right, the better you ski. Mm hmm. And I've thought about that. And I think there's something about having our feet on the firm foundation of what we can already do. Yeah, launches us to be able to do something yet again, better. As opposed to thinking you can not to say we can't be better, because we can. But then if we'll start with what we're already good at. We're starting from a more solid foundation. So that's what I think your advice does is say, you know, you're gonna get more of what you touch. So what do you want more of that horrible way you talk to yourself or a better way of talking to yourself?

Anne: 1:19:33

Yeah. And it's, you know, what you're saying is bringing up conversations that I have with clients, especially clients who are recovering from head or brain injuries, which is they tend to be very frustrated at how far they still have to go. But if I encourage them to look and see how much progress that they've made, oh my gosh, it completely turns their attitude and emotions around.

Lynn: 1:19:59

Okay. Ah, that is that is a really, that that's a piece of a gratitude practice isn't it? Like that, to me, the beauty of a gratitude practice is, you can begin to see what you already have. And somehow that makes more of what you already have. But if you look for what you lack, somehow that makes more of what you lack. So good reminder for me today, I'm gonna remember this. Excellent. This has really been a fun conversation and so informative. I'm so grateful that you took the time to speak with me today.

Anne: 1:20:36

Well, thank you so much, man. I really enjoyed it as well. And yes, you asked great questions. So they want me to sound like a good guest.

Lynn: 1:20:43

Well, I'm glad you liked the questions. That's one of my specialties is trying to ask those thought provoking questions. So for those of you who stuck with us this long, we are so grateful that you did and if you are interested in leaving me a voicemail, you can go to my website, there is a little button on the right. And that send you your voice directly to me, I listened to everyone. You can also sign up for the coaching digest at Lynn carnes.com. That's where I share my coaching tips, and lots of things that we don't share elsewhere. So we hope you join us over on the coaching digest. If and we will see you all on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.