#67 Stevie Delahunt: She Calls Them "Spicy Memories"

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to Creative Spirits Unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the Creative Spirits Unleashed Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes. Your host, my guest for this episode is Stevie Delahunt. This is going to be a very different episode. In fact, when you get into it, you're going to notice that we just started recording. There wasn't this moment where I go, Stevie, welcome to the podcast. I'm doing that now. Because we got on and just started going, and I hit record, and we were off and running. Let me tell you why. In the 24 hours before Stevie, and I were set to record, she discovered that her horse Captain America had severely lacerated his front left leg in the pasture. And there was a big decision to be made, was it even something that could be recoverable, so she had spent the last 24 hours working with him? To determine what to do, how to fix it, get? I think they said the vets eventually took four hours of stitches to put him back together. So I started this podcast with her saying, you know, Stevie, we can just talk. We don't have to do a podcast, maybe you just need an ear for what you've been going through. And then she started talking, and I hit record, because we just got right into it. And what you're going to hear in this podcast is two people having a very rich discussion about how to deal with the things like having our horse cut their leg, and all the other things that we might call trauma that she calls productive struggle at times, or spicy memories, those kinds of things, how to handle those things in our life. Given who she is. It's worth listening to because Stevie helps people deal with difficult situations. Let me tell you a little bit about her. She graduated from Michigan State University with two degrees and an intent to pursue law school at Georgetown University where she had been accepted. She switched gears though and went to French pastry school in Chicago to learn how to do wedding cakes and set up shop in the Windy City. While in Chicago, she learned of the world's toughest horse race the Mongol Derby, and she again left let life guide her into constant change. On the other side of successfully completing them on gold derby. She took a job with a startup company in Rhode Island and learned coding and marketing for the online business. The endeavor in the world of startups gave her strong leadership skills and an education in business models she applied to starting her second and current business of horse related retreats. Her Stevie's current business encompasses several facets of the horse world, including beginner writing instruction, advanced boot camp style retreats for riders wishing to participate in difficult horse riding survival races around the world, horse shoeing and endurance racing with horses, which includes doing the world's toughest one day, 100 mile race, the telescopic, Stevie believes that adversity is a necessary part of life. And being prepared for adversity as well as creating it for oneself is essential and is a tool she uses in teaching both horses and humans, both young and old. I had such a good time on this conversation with her we cover a lot of topics, especially around the idea of using adversity to your advantage. And I really do hope you enjoy this very raw and real conversation with Stevie Delahunt. As the recording makes that adversity makes us stronger thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so yeah. You said okay, so you were energized. Fine. Yeah.

Stevie: 3:55

So this, this horse that we own, named Captain America has, has come to us. And he's been an interesting case where he's had a lot of previous owners. And he's had serious leg injuries with almost every owner, and like recovered fully, though, which is interesting. And the two days after we got him, he ran into a sprinkler with his back leg and went to the veterinarians and had to recover for months. And so we didn't use him for a while. And then he kind of came slowly back into work. And he was going pretty well, but still has like a lot of resistance to doing heavy work. And I've just tried to listen to him. And suddenly this happened. He destroyed his front leg yesterday. And now. I'm just so interested because, you know, Dylan and I looked at each other. It was horrendous when we found them and we were like, Oh my gosh, like, did he break a bone like he's just bleeding out? We had stopped the bleeding and called the vets and we're pretty shook up but We're like, you know, realistically, right? Now we have to figure out how much can we spend, like, you know, you know, or like how much recovery and I said, I think it's less a fact of money. Not like we have necessarily the means, but I know we have community and we have credit cards. Like, I was like, I think it's less than idea of the money, but the recovery, like if he has to be stalled on for like, a year, like, he's a, he's an Arabian notes that wants to move. So it's just like, you know, that's, and we don't really have the means to be able to do that. And so I was like, I think it's going to be more about recovery. So we were kind of putting like, some parameters in place. And I was like, if it's money, you know, maybe we say like, 5000. And then we talk about it again and wildly when we got in the vets gave us a quick estimate. And the range in the top range was like at 5000. And I was like, That's interesting that it was right, like $1, more than what we said. And then, and then additionally, when we went and did radiographs and X rays. The vet had said, if it's in his joint capsule, I'm going to encourage you to put him down. And it was very close to his knee and his pastern where there's joint capsule, and literally the X rays. And our radiographs showed us that it was millimeters from each capsule. So it was like he actually has any he severed the tendon on the front of his leg, but they were like, Oh, that heals really well. He should make a full recovery. So like if he makes it through all this treatment, and doesn't get an infection that can go to the joint capsule, like he will he should make a full recovery despite how severe it is. Which is just so interesting. I'm like he's basically injured himself to the maximum capacity in which he can still recover from

Lynn: 6:43

which, and how did he choose those parameters? Right, right. It's like he knew the box. And he stayed right inside of it.

Stevie: 6:50

Exactly. And I just found it really interesting because I'm also energized by this this story. Like I think a lot of humans and sentient beings get stuck in, like my husband for a while when he didn't know what he wanted to do with his life kept getting injured over and over again, like in work, he was doing construction just to make money and he got seriously injured there. And then it was I feel like I really believe the universe tells us we're doing something wrong. Or not wrong. We're just not doing our purpose. And I think injury and disease dis ease, is all comes through for a reason. So I'm super curious about for both people and horses. What is this pattern mean? And I just feel like, you know, I could be really disheartened. And I was definitely scared yesterday, like thinking I might have to make a decision to put a horse down. And I didn't want to have to do that. And now I feel like Oh, cool. He's on the mend. But like how do we how do we fix this cycle? There's like, I mean, he has a very apparent cycle very apparent, I can't ignore it now like, keeps injuring his legs, why his legs? Why in he keeps telling us he doesn't really want to be an endurance horse. And, and I'm okay with that. But like, what, what is what does he want. And I almost feel like I've had some like pretty amazing animal communication moments. And I had an interesting moment with him in the past where that I felt the universe coming through and it was almost chastising him, like, you are not serving your purpose, like you are meant Born to Run. You're meant to run. And it was like, I almost feel like I'm observing the universe. Continually speaking to them and being like, you need to move your legs and move your body. And, and it's like, if you don't move us these, I'm taking them from you. It gets really bizarre, and I'm just so energized and like how can I help this horse get through these cycle, these repeated cycles of injury? And if I can figure that out, like what implications does that have to help people because I see people in those cycles too. Yeah,

Lynn: 8:50

I do, too. The first thing I thought when you said he had had multiple leg injuries is unlike okay, what's up with the legs? Yeah. What What's What's he trying to tell you? Or what I think is even bigger as you're saying the universe is trying to tell him. Yeah.

Stevie: 9:06

And so curious. I mean, Denise, actually, there's a mutual friend that we both have Denise Elizabeth Byron, who's an astrologer, she reached out early this morning, I'm sure she wouldn't mind me saying so. But she kind of said, in trying to understand what's happened here, this horse has chosen to take on take on these injuries, like in a shamanic manner as and he's taking the brunt of this for our herd. And I mean, to be honest, yesterday, like out of all the horses, we have all the horses in work and one horse is very old and he's still in work but I was thinking this horse is one of the best patients we have like he takes care very well like he's stood so well for all those stitches. And and he's also not actively competing. And I feel like if it was gonna happen, you know, you don't want to think it but that way but In a way, like, if it was gonna happen to anybody, it was the he was the best candidate. And I think it's just really interesting. Like, why is this horse keep taking injury and like, if she was just saying that there's some shamanic properties to that, where if there's something coming, the horses will choose, like their higher selves, not not like a conscious decision, but like your unconscious or subconscious self chooses to take that on, just like I think people sort of choose their life paths before they're born into them. It's curious that this horse seems to keep taking this on. Now, I don't know why anyone needs to be injured at all. But there's something greater going on. It's very, very interesting. He seems to repeatedly be taking the brunt of things. And yeah, like,

Lynn: 10:51

it's fascinating. Well, and I think that's a I can see now why you're energized by it. Because it in a way you're trading it as not a tragedy, but as a puzzle to be solved. That has greater meaning and purpose than just a cut leg. Right.

Stevie: 11:08

And I think you have to write it's like, if you're not laughing, you're crying.

Lynn: 11:14

Well, I was one of the people sending good energy yesterday, for a while not knowing what was going on, you know, I didn't know if he was calling or what was happening. But, you know, I when I finally heard about it, I was like, Oh, my gosh, why? Because that's sounds like it. What did you say four hours to do the stitches? Yeah. Yeah.

Stevie: 11:35

While you guys met yesterday, I was still holding his head. We discovered the the incident at like, 730 in the morning. By the time we got him on the trailer, I think. I mean, we started stitching them up at 10am. And we weren't done till after 3pm.

Lynn: 11:51

That's unbelievable. Yeah. So we started that meeting at three o'clock paves, just in case we're recording. And this is probably going to be on the podcast. The journey on podcasts Summit. Presenters, we're having a meeting last night at six o'clock Eastern three o'clock Pacific and you had your horse's head in your life at that time.

Stevie: 12:10

Yeah. Yeah. So super grateful for all the positive energy couldn't have couldn't have better community to support us.

Lynn: 12:19

Well, that I think that's incredibly true. And I think we're just gonna go, I'm not gonna do the usual. Welcome to the podcast thing, because I think we just started. Okay, so we're at it. Is that okay?

Stevie: 12:33

Yeah, that's fine. That's fine.

Lynn: 12:35

All right. Yeah. So you said something about it? Would you call it animal communication moment? And it's interesting. I'm in the middle of taking, I mean, Anna 20s animal communication masterclass right now. And so I'm just starting to learn this. And I have had moments where things have come through. How do you get your animal communication? Yeah, how do you get it? Like, what? What form does it come through for you? Sure.

Stevie: 13:09

So um, for me, I, I have found that it started, it changes all the time, but I feel like it's a felt sense within the body. And I've gotten to the level now. So I used to kind of in my head because things came to me as a kid in a different way. I always found animal communicators who would like say, Oh, the horse says this, like, says it, you know, in English, always seemed bizarre and silly to me. But I've actually reached a level recently, and I don't think the horses are speaking in English or anything. I think my brain is interpreting it. But I get full sentences, especially from this horse, we just previously discussed the one that gets injured, I do get full English sentences, or just shared emotion that creates sort of a picture in my mind's eye. But there's a lot of lot of interpretation, which, of course, is the challenge, I think, for any animal communicator, and anyone else is like, how much is projection? How much is reality? And for me, so, I'll just, I'll just go right out and say, like, the way that I've been able to clarify my animal communication and strengthen it is I have dabbled in plant medicines. Specifically psychedelics of psilocybin. So that's mushrooms. And it's been very clear and very obvious to me, there were I can even like, physically see thoughts pass between myself and the horses, which is pretty, that's pretty amazing.

Lynn: 14:40

I think it's amazing. And actually, it's, you know, we had a whole era where they put mushrooms down, you know, after the 50s and all the LSD movement and all that kind of stuff. And it's interesting to me because it's on the uptick again now, from a scientific standpoint because you Those are ancient practices that had been used by people for many, many, many eons. And it's almost like we were missing the bus, if you will, by not understanding it. And so I at one point was totally caught up in the light go. Yeah, that's awful. Mushrooms are magic mushrooms are terrible. But the more I've looked into it, the more I'm thinking, why did we let ourselves go there? Like, yeah, it's, it's, it strikes me as medicine, just like anything else. And in fact, all the medicines come from the plants. If you think about it, where else do we get medicines, except for that we start doing all this chemical stuff now with pharmaceuticals. And maybe that's one of the reasons is they couldn't figure out how to make money on it. Yeah,

Stevie: 15:44

no, that's exactly it's very non addictive. I think I think you should always really observe the things that pharmaceuticals are trying to push. Like, for example, I'm a proponent of using psychedelics in a introspective and in the right setting in an introspective way. And I find one that's kind of questionable. And you'll hear a lot of people with maps, which is, oh, man, I can't remember the abbreviation of what it stands for off the top of my head. But there are a lot of government funded study, people studying psychedelics, and they, a lot of them have concluded that ketamine that's a new one that ketamine therapy, that's an interesting one for me, because I'm like, there seems to be a lot of money being made off of it. So it's on my questionable list of things, because it looks more like a pharmaceutical, whereas psilocybin, it's, it's definitely a difficult, you know, it's not an easy. It's, it can be a really wonderful experience, but you definitely have to look at yourself, and it's not something that you're like, oh, I want to do this again, tomorrow. You know, it's it's not, it's not addictive, there are really no addictive properties to it. And so it really is just that it's medicine. And, and I think that that's kind of validates it in a way, like the fact that even though you can have these wonderful experiences, it's not something your mind or body wants to go right back into doing.

Lynn: 17:12

Yeah. Well, and and I think, from what I've understood, and I have not done anything, in that vein, myself, I've the my, I've done a lot of Holotropic breathing, which does a lot of the same kind of thing. That's what Stanislav Grof, who was a researcher in the LSD stuff back in the 50s, also discovered that Holotropic breathing could bring altered states of consciousness. And so I've done a lot of that. But I haven't done it, but from what I understand what you are, what I'm hearing from you is it's great experiences, but great, because you because you welcome difficulty, if I'm not mistaken, is that true?

Stevie: 17:56

Yeah, I think, for me, it's just been like therapy. But it is exactly that there's a lot of, I kind of feel like anytime I've done a trip, the whole entire beginning, is really having to face face stuff within yourself. And you kind of have to let go of things in order to see the beauty and things and just that process that I have to go through on a on a mushroom trip has also made me understand how to get into those places and spaces, and everyday life. What is clouding my lens to not see the beauty and wonder and being alive in this moment. And now I can do that without psychedelics. So it's been a very interesting journey of having a substance that's helping me to be introspective, but that substance is opening those neural pathways so that I can then recreate the experience on a different level without anything at all. It's really taught me I mean, even there's, I've even tried other things like, and I've done this with, with people working with horses, where there's a lot of fear, I was just speaking about this. And I love to speak openly about this because I think there is a lot of value in it. Again, anything I'm saying to the general public, please don't do this on your own look for guide and work with somebody set and setting is really important. But something that a lot of different people have tried, when they have really deep fear with horses is like low dosing of MDMA. And the interesting thing about that is it's taught me how to teach people without its use, because I've noticed that you cannot hold fear when you hold love like they seem to be the vibrational opposites. Yes. And it's been an amazing experience to help people ride a horse, their horse that they've been afraid of, and be like, I never knew I could sit on a horse without fear. Mm hmm. And watching that and watching it and then I'm asking them well, what are you feeling? You're on this horse right now. And they're like, I feel such a gratitude to be here to be with them. And so we kind of write that down. And it's like, can you take that home? And, and that's now something I teach, like, before you get on your horse sit there and like, just look at this beautiful animal and thank them for this interaction. And, and taking these bookmarkers in your mind that you get when you're in an altered state, with a lot of positive endorphins going through your system. What what are you doing that you can reenact without that, that substance, and it does make a big difference, like just having moments with all my students before they get on their horses and telling them hold that hold that space of love and gratitude, and it changes the entire ride that they have, like just a moment. So I've learned a lot in using them using these things. And then also, like, I think the most amazing implication is now going back and, and trying to recreate it in your mind without the substance. Yeah, like rom Das, he's like, he's a great guy who did a lot of LSD. And he's like, cool, I know how to do rocket ship to the top of the mountain. Now it's time to walk there. And that's sort of what I feel like psychedelics have their place to show you what can be done. But then you figure out how to get there on your own. Yeah,

Lynn: 21:18

it's, it's interesting, because that's very similar. Without the psychedelics of when I, you know, you heard me talk about working with Bruce Anderson. And my, I worked with him because of fear of getting back on the horse. And he started talking about the love thing, and especially he calls it blue energy. Okay. And when he started showing me, like, where I was thinking, I knew what to do. And the the switch that really flipped for me, as he says, you hold the picture, but let the horse tell you what to do. So it changes that it creates a harmonic, because now I don't have that responsibility. And it's really hard to let go up by the way, you were talking about letting go and things, letting go of thinking I know how to tell the horse to how to move his feet, for example, but it's like his feet. So I have started this practice. And this is fairly recently of really thanking them, you know, in my mind's eye for the use of their legs, like thank you for letting me borrow your, your your legs for this trip, about to go on. And it's like, it's a fluid relaxation on top of the horse, as we like move in harmony that's unlike anything I had ever experienced before. And it took a lot of time for me to get there. You know, it sounds like the psilocybin or MDMA is a little bit of a shortcut.

Stevie: 22:45

Yeah, it definitely, it definitely is an of course, that's like, you know, shortcuts are shortcuts, there's there's a cost benefit to that. But when I'm trying to help solve a problem more quickly with people, it's been something I've used, it's also just for really, like really difficult blocks for people. I've worked with people with trailer loading. Terror, basically. And that's been a really wonderful space, because I think what's so cool is horses always validate us, because there are this mirror that is holding up or being held up. So in these experiences, the very The amazing thing is we've taken really nervous horses that were just reflecting their owner, had them do a little bit of this therapy, and then they go to load their horse and the horse is super calm gets right on the trailer, and they're just like, blown away, they're like, Wow, he is me, I am the change that needs to happen. And so that's, that's just a really cool thing. And I think just you know, like that becomes having that experience gives them the realization that it is them and that they can just change themselves and the whole entire like it because they've used this different lens to look at something, the entire experience has shifted. Just like when you change the way you look at things and things you look at things

Lynn: 24:03

you look at change, and be the change you want to see in the world. I actually I have had this conversation with so many of my coaching clients, and so many direct experiences for myself, have these moments where they're just absolutely sure that the other person is the problem. And they're just not aware that that you are creating your own reality with the things you choose to see the things you choose to hear the things that you pay attention to and are listening for. And if you can open up and start like just seeking clarity and what really is as opposed to what you're only allowing. It changes everything. Because you come you come at it different and you know everybody can relate to somebody walking in, or should I say storming into somebody's office, you know itching for a fight, ie loading a trailer with a horse and your your, your whole energy field is I'm prepared for everything to go poorly. Yeah. And that's the like, that's the the red carpet of energy you've just laid down as opposed to the blue energy of carpet. You know, it's like, I've thought about that often. It's like, what kind of steps Am I lying down in my mind? Because you get more of what you touch. And if you touch salutely, touch anger, you're gonna get more anger.

Stevie: 25:25

Absolutely. And especially with a creature that's not linguistically gifted, right? Like, we're, yeah. How are they reading us? They know they're reading our energy. Right? It's our language.

Lynn: 25:36

Clear, and it's from so far away. Last, that's the other thing that stunning to me, is how, like, I don't even know what the distance is they can read. But if you're, if you're standing next to a paddock next with horses in it, I don't care how far away they are. They're reading your energy. If you can see them, I'm pretty sure they're reading your energy, because I've seen enough situations where people have influenced the horses from a

Stevie: 26:02

distance. Absolutely. Yeah, that's pretty wild.

Lynn: 26:07

Yeah. But I mean, that came from there being wild. Right.

Stevie: 26:10

Exactly. Yeah. survival technique. If you're a prey animal, you need to be read the room.

Lynn: 26:17

Yeah. And they're so good at it. Yeah. Yeah. They really are. Yeah, well, I'm, I'm glad to hear that. Captain America is on the mend. And I think a lot of people are going to be following you after this. We'll be putting up your socials at the end of the podcast is to know how his his progression goes both in the physical healing and then figuring out what's actually really going on. Like, What's he trying to tell him? What is he being taught? Or what is he trying to teach? Might be a little bit of both as he goes through this stuff. Yeah,

Stevie: 26:53

absolutely. Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, because I keep I've often wondered why why he's with us. He's expressed that he really would like to be a jumping horse. And you know, I used to do that. I don't do that anymore. I'm just wondering, Am I meant to find you a different home? Or am I meant, you know, but he's been passed around so much. I also don't want to create a damaging storyline for him that he's always passed on. So I'm committed to keeping him if that's where he wants to be, I just want to do is write for him. And that's just an interesting journey for myself as well. Yeah.

Lynn: 27:27

And I'm assuming I'm, I've, I'm so interested in learning more about endurance riding, especially after seeing your talk at the journey on Summit? Like, I don't want to go try something. Yeah. I'm going to trust me vet and endurance, there's not jumping like cross country, right? This is just going straight across. So he didn't get a chance and endurance to do a lot of jumping. Is that is that? Am I

Stevie: 27:54

correct? Yeah, he. So endurance is just kind of like ultra running. But for horses. Okay. And, you know, occasionally there might be a downed tree, and trail and you could jump that if you want to do you know, he, he typically at our place, jumps to give kids riding lessons, and I've jumped him a little bit, too, I just think horses should be able to celebrate and use their bodies. And it just teaches coordination and lift and, and gives them a purpose they get, they get what you're asking when you say let's jump this, and there's a lot of joy. And you see a lot of horses get really excited about what they can accomplish jumping. So I like to put that in there, as well as moving cattle. Those are two things horses seem to really enjoy. Oh,

Lynn: 28:38

they do love. They do love moving cattle. And actually, you're you're one of the few people I have heard talk about a horse actually having his own his or her own purpose, say more about how you came to understand that. Because, again, back to the harmonic thing. You know, I think, again, I work a lot with people in teams and so forth. And there's nothing like a team, that everybody's getting a chance to fulfill their purpose as they fulfill a greater goal together.

Stevie: 29:07

Sir, yeah, well, go ahead. Sorry.

Lynn: 29:10

I just I was just saying, I heard you talk about horses having a purpose, and that they have a purpose as well as we do. And that creates to be an equality that I think is so necessary in horsemanship, because I think a lot of us were raised using dominance methods, again, both in just classic human leadership and horse leadership, without understanding a different, a different model that says we're both working in harmony with each other. So how does that fit in with your view of horses and their purpose? Sure, so

Stevie: 29:40

I'm going to start with a wide angle lens, but I'll progress really quickly into a very specific, generalized purpose for or not generally have a very specific purpose for horses and people but I truly believe that we're all energy. I mean, science can prove that we're all just vibrating energy at the core of what everything is. So I believe that even your toaster oven has a purpose. And there's some because everything is vibrating energy, really, there's probably some level of consciousness and understanding of purpose with even inanimate objects, which is there's, I won't go down that road, but there's something called iconic resonance where like, you know, people put a lot of love and craft into like a sailboat. And I think there's some people that are really attached to cars. I'm not one of these people, but attached to bars or modes of transport. And I think that there's almost almost a soul there in a way, at the level that it's just vibrating energy and, and was created to do something. So every blade of grass has a purpose. Generally, I think plants are in deep levels of service, like grass is meant to be eaten by animals and, and is yes, so that everything has purpose. And I think when you get into the larger sentient beings, there's maybe a more understandable or relatable, relatable level of purpose. So I think dogs and horses, who we've domesticated long ago and have kind of think chosen a path with people, I think they're, there's some service there and guidance to us, and they do. They are in a way under our dominion, but they're also doing their own thing. And they're, they're meant to teach us something, we, we really should be humbled by the fact that these creatures have come into our lives and, and allowed to be in such a level of service. I mean, I think courses are almost, you know, we really have to be conscientious of the fact that we are basically glorified. And I'm not taking anything away from actual human slavery, but we are basically glorified slave owners with horses. These are fully sentient beings. And we need to be conscious, that we need to provide them with all the opportunity and care possible because this is an interesting world where we have to keep them behind fences. And, and like they, they aren't just living out wild with us, which they did do in the past, you know. And they do do that in Mongolia, the herders keep, let their horses roam free. And you know what those horses don't go far from them. And they're not even feeding them grain or anything. They're just, they're just traveling together. So there's like a unwritten agreement there. That's really interesting. And horses. So I think all people need to have purpose and all horses need to have purpose. And I think that's come into my awareness. Through doing these trips, these mushroom trips, I've had an experience where I was out with our herd. And this was the experience in which I felt that, in fact, the universe was kind of chastising Captain America or our horse, and it was like, This is a family of runners. Like myself, my husband, we done a little Ultra running, we run often and our dog is a runner, loves to go running, all the horses are it loves to go out on trail and run. And it was basically like this family, this is your purpose. You are runners you are meant to inspire through through motion. This is your this is your purpose. And I just felt that coming through all the horses. So it's like we're a little tribe of of sentience that got together and really enjoy moving our bodies. And and I think I just really believe that all creatures need to be fulfilling a purpose. I think some of the worst. I think some of the worst kind of neglect for horses can be just being out in a pasture or small pasture doing nothing more than you know, everyone wants to focus their their energy on these racehorses or and yes, there's definitely abuse there. And definitely, definitely some, some things that we could do better in the racehorse industry, but those horses love their jobs. Yes, they do purpose. They love their job. They were bred for that. They know what they're meant to do, and they love it or they wouldn't run. Yeah,

Lynn: 34:06

Anna 20 told me that one day I asked her about this with with performance horses because I spent a lot of time in the writing world and she said, Well, I'll tell you this. She said I haven't spent much time with runners, but I've never met a racehorse that didn't love to run.

Stevie: 34:19

Yeah. Yeah, so I think you know, we love to like focus on the big things like ah, horse racing is horrible, but in fact, I I find a lot more sadness and depression in horses that just start standing in a field not being used and I'm a farrier on the side side you get to visit some of these horses and I find the ones that are have the most joy when I meet them are like actively being worked and doing something with their human every day or like, they just know what they're doing in life like they have. They have a job.

Lynn: 34:53

Yep. I will say that that's been pretty close to my experience, because as you know, I don't have horses so I get in fact, since I saw you last I've written four or five times, and not once on the same horse. Cool. Now I'm riding horses that I might, only one of them was a horse I've never written before. But I could just, I can just tell that that like, especially the riding horse that I ride, she loves what she's doing. Like, she will literally sometimes be walking along and I can feel her going, can we spin? Can we span I love a span? Yeah. And it's the opposite of what you'd expect? Or what we're often taught to think, which is we should leave them alone.

Stevie: 35:34

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, I think, you know, just the fact that horses have chosen this life of domestication, if you believe in choosing your life path, and, and they're with us, like, we can't just turn them loose. You know, like the horses, I mean, unfortunately, I do live near some BLM holding pens, and that is not a place a horse wants to be. Now additionally, even loose, a lot of them go through quite a lot of suffering being loose, because they're still interacting with people and that there is a negative way we're taking their land their grazing area. They're, you know, they domestication is not the enemy. It's how we treat them in domestication and what purpose we give them. Yeah,

Lynn: 36:17

well, one of the things I've been working to wake people up to on the idea of the slave owners piece, is actually that in a lot of ways, the modern world has enslaved all of us. Yes. And you know, that we've we kind of are unconsciously selling our soul to the different companies and things like that, you know, it's just a matter of what, you know, what how your needs outstrip your ability to to be free is what I see. And I saw on our wall street journal article the other day that said, what's the rays that would make you happy? And they talked to people that made under 100,000, and people who made millions, and all of them wanted more.

Stevie: 37:00

Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. Well, always want more. That's, that's Yeah.

Lynn: 37:05

Yeah. It's like you have$10 million in the bank. Are you happy? And the answer was no, but I'll be happy when I have 20 million in the bank. And

Stevie: 37:14

that's an addiction. Exactly.

Lynn: 37:17

And there's never enough which I think goes there's never enough I think goes with we're never enough somehow we think there's a place if we can get to in terms of money or status or other external rewards that if that it will click into place that we're enough and people don't understand. That's not how it happens. It's an inside job.

Stevie: 37:40

Absolutely, yeah. When as you're saying that the situation that horses are in because is is basically mirroring the situation that humans are in when I did that talk I one of the rhymes was nine to five cubicle work is crushing the hearts of humanity. Horses stuck inside box stalls, no turnout. Is this not the same insanity? I

Lynn: 38:00

remember the second part of that line, I forgot the nine to five line. Yeah, I mean, when you when you did your talk, and we'll you know, your one of the things they told us last night, by the way is that we're going to each get a copy of our talk to share with people. So we you know, if you want to see the whole thing, that it's a paid, paid gig, you know, people can buy that live stream, which is really well worth it. Because it's like 20 Amazing talks. Oh, absolutely. But yours, you will get more Tyler's working on it. And I think we may have him by the end of today. Oh, amazing. So this is my way of telling people listening. Go find Stevie and listen to her talk what she did in rhyme. Because it was fantastic. And I missed that. Like I said, I forgot that nine to five piece. But I remember that the same insanity of horses and box stalls.

Stevie: 38:55

You Yeah, I mean, I think you know, that's, that's the funny thing. You talk about waking up. And I've just really my eyes have been open to the fact that we are all insane because we're all living in our own narratives and our own minds in our own heads, and that we're actually not really interacting with reality the way we think we are. And waking up is like waking up to the fact that we're acting in an insane manner.

Lynn: 39:20

It is it is insane. And I mean, every single time I come home, I thank my husband for my push button life it's so easy, because I push a button and the gate opens and I push a button and the garage door opens and I push another button and my alarm goes off right like or you know, turn the alarm and I pushed a button to set to turn it off when I get home. And yet how is that good for me to have? Like everything at the push of a button? Isn't that that's not natural. Humans haven't had that for the most of humanity. We've we've had to go work for our food and you know now we can push a button and our food gets delivered to our door. or,

Stevie: 40:00

absolutely, that's our nervous systems are not meant to handle to deal with that we're meant to be out in the wild. And as you say that my honestly one of my most joyous periods of my life was when we were living in California, we had a travel trailer on a pond on 112 acres, we were renting and living with an older couple there. And it was amazing, we had no running water, and we had no electricity, we have, like some battery that we would charge on for a while on a generator, but for the most part, we really didn't have have a lot of amenities, we would go to the gym to shower. And I honestly that like little bit of struggle was every day just to do like, think about how we were getting water and, and boiling water up and, and using actual wood and a fire to cook things was kind of some of the most joy I've ever had, it was very poor. At that time combat for America, you know, I still had a lot of great opportunity. But that, that struggle, that little bit of struggle every day, it just made you I actually was so much more grateful for things and I try to constantly hold that like whenever I turn on a faucet, I try to be grateful because that's amazing. I actually

Lynn: 41:20

do too, and electricity that we can flip a switch, just turn the faucet on, there's water, all of those little things that we all take for granted. And like now even internet is considered almost like a human right, like electricity. Because the modern world has put us there. And yet again, for most of humanity, our ancestors had none of these things. Yeah. And you said something, I think very important, which is the acknowledgement of the nervous system and how this actually doesn't create a strong nervous system, it actually weakens our nervous system.

Stevie: 41:57

Yes, I, I, a little metaphor I use for people, you know, people will tell me Oh, you're really tough. You did the Mongol Derby, or you did this ultra marathon or whatever they're using as an example of why should in that moment still be tough. And I think of myself and probably all of us were like a rubber band where we always if you're not stretching that rubber band, it snaps back to the lowest common denominator of self. And in this metaphor, basically, we will always seek comfort. And so you constantly have to be the hand stretching that rubber band back out to expand your nervous system to expand your abilities to expand your tolerance of discomfort. And it's important.

Lynn: 42:42

I that's become what has happened for me over the last few years. Every time I show up, I still work with Bruce and I go down usually about once a month. And somewhere along the line, it switched from me going in with dread and going what kind of scary thing is he going to ask me to do? Like when like, here's an example of what I thought was a terribly scary thing is I was gonna ride his horse on with a bareback pad, no bridle just the you know, loop around the neck. And, and I and it was a big deal for me just to do that. But I'd gotten on like that with a mounting block, and we're going around pen. And one day, we didn't bring around the block down and he said, Just Just get up on the side of the fence and get on him like that and bring him over to you. And I'm like, Are you effing crazy? Like, I'm gonna break my leg doing that. And but, you know, guess what he did? He said, break it down into smaller steps and keep breaking it down. Like, what's your first step? What's your second step, you know, tiny little frames as he put it. And I remember standing there with both of my feet, like in a slalom ski position, right, one foot in front of the other on the edge of this pan. And I'm like, there's just no way I can get my foot off of here and throw it over this horse's back. And Bruce just looks at me, he goes whenever you're ready. And it's like he actually thinks I can do this. And then I did. And it was probably right around that time when I was like, you know, this is actually good for me. Like, luckily, I didn't break my like I could that's life. But now I go to him and instead of dreading what kind of crazy thing he's gonna do, like asked me to get up on the side of the round pen to get on the horse. He's like, he says, What do you want to do today? And I'll go I don't know just more pressure. Because I can when I'm doing that I can actually feel maybe the rubber band is shaping or reshaping a little bit because once that level of I call it the pressure threshold resets in does it go back? It's it's almost like it's like therapy without therapy. Because what happens is I don't have to go back and go Well what made me so scared to get up there in the first place. I have a pretty good sense of having a mother that said Don't go near the edge but but the the thing What happens is whatever that other stuff is, it feels like it just dissipates. It's like that heat up the pressure melts it or burns it off. And, yes, there's another layer once we burn that layer off. But that's, that's never I never go back to the level I was before, if that makes sense. Yeah. It sounds like you resonate with that. Absolutely.

Stevie: 45:23

The lovely Giordana on a wall, who was on the work, Schiller podcast said something that resonates to what you're saying. And she said, Fear is the package I get to unwrap to see a better version of me on the other side. Like she sees it as something you have to go through. But like, instead of saying, it's something you have to go through, she says, it's the package I get to unwrap.

Lynn: 45:45

That's a beautiful way to think of it. Yeah,

Stevie: 45:48

I really liked Yes, I'm stealing it now.

Lynn: 45:51

That makes two of us, because I've often said, There's something on the other side of fear. And it's like a, I can think of it as like the fear wall. Where it's like, if you could just experience life for a minute, on that side of the fear wall, you realize that it's a world of infinite possibilities, as opposed to being on this side, which just said, or you could see as kind of the one possibility, which is I've got a I've got a survivor, or I could die. And, yeah, but I like the package idea, because it's something we get to unwrap and I feel like every time I go into a situation, like standing up on the side of the round pen or another time he had me get on, right not far from the highway that he's he's on. It's not a big highway, but it's a country road, but there's cars going up and down at trucks and such. And we're not far from that. And he didn't have a mounting block. So he had me get up on the back of the pickup, gonna get off off on the Get on on the bumper. But I feel like every single time I do that, and I don't die, it also tells my nervous system, hey, you can do this, like you can do stuff that makes you uncomfortable, and you're not gonna die.

Stevie: 47:04

Exactly, exactly. And it's not not gonna die. I've had a couple. Actually, I call them fortunate experiences of enduring quite a lot of pain, or quite a lot of suffering in a moment, and to the point where it's like, okay, wow, I'm feeling so much pain that anymore, I would pass out, or I'm feeling so much suffering anymore. And I would pass out. And so it's like the, at the absolute threshold. But in that moment, there's an amazing release, where I'm like, kind of stepping outside of my body and being like, I'm still alive. And I'm essentially okay. So he kind of has created in those moments like, I can separate myself from that pain or suffering. And I'm just sort of in a moment of Wonder of, maybe this sounds a little masochistic. I'm not gonna say that I like these experiences. But it's been an amazing moment of being like we are something more than the pain body than the ego, then then this physical body, we are something more and in those moments, it's been revealed to me that we are something more and I kind of, I've been able to remember that. Like you said, as soon as you've had these experiences, they do stick with you. And I kind of remember that even in silly things where I do cold plunges almost every day and moments where it's really cold. And I just remind myself that that experience like you are not your body. You are not these feelings that you're having. You are something else something greater, something enduring and something timeless, then

Lynn: 48:36

I think I'd go ahead. No, I was gonna say I did the cold plunges not every day, but I'm getting ready to be able to do them almost every day. I have an ice bath. But it's far away. And I live on a lake. So the lake is now at the right temperature to go do it. Go get in the lake.

Stevie: 48:51

You're like me, I use my horse trough to so winter time is the time to do.

Lynn: 48:57

I love it. I love it. You know what I'm wondering? Do you think that that moment that you have in that when you're like thinking I can take no more? Is this like what the Navy SEALs call that extra 40? Or 40%? I think they say that anytime you feel like you've reached your absolute max, you have another 40% to give.

Stevie: 49:19

I think I've been both places. I think I've been 100% before. And it was just like I was very close to blacking out I could feel it. So. So that was that was telling but I think oftentimes Yes, I think at you know, at our 60% capacity of pain or suffering our mind is saying this is it. And I've definitely had both of those I tend to most experiences in life is what the 60% Like it's it's pretty hard to find 100% Pain thresholds or suffering threshold.

Lynn: 49:52

So tell me a story about when you were at that 100% huh

Stevie: 49:57

yeah. The the 100% The one is it's fairly personal. But I'll I'll talk about like an emotional one. And I think I'll just pick one that's pretty relatable for most people. I think heartbreak is probably one of the most horrendous things in the world. And I really value relationships in my life. And so I can only speak from my own perspective, but I truly believe, you know, they talk about death is actually people, people's nervous systems deal with death better than they do divorce, because there's a bit of closure in the fact that somebody's gone, versus someone chose not to be with you. Yeah. And that's a you know, that that plays into when you alluded to it earlier. But I also had that, in my speech, I truly believe our deep core wound is we all have an insecurity of enoughness. And I believe enlightenment is actually just answering for yourself that you are enough. And it takes a lot of a lot of introspective work to get there. And I think that's the journey we're on. But this insecurity of enoughness just gets reinforced whenever we're rejected. So I think heartbreak, I've always kind of pondered on it, I'm, like, I've been, you know, you the months after a serious breakup with somebody that was really important to you, or a divorce can be really, really hard. And, and, and you think about the amount of suffering that someone's in. And it's just wild that I think it's a very human experience, I don't know many people that don't go through the experience of having horrendous heartbreak at least once in their life. And, and it's such a lot of suffering. And I think I've have experienced that, like, I had a particularly breakup, that was a shock to me, and it came at a time. So it was very ironic, you can't make the step up. But I actually in the past, had cancer and I got the diagnosis. And I came up the stairs to this man that I really loved. And I looked in his eyes, and he did not know that I had just gotten this diagnosis at all. And I realized he was going to break up with me. And I had, it was one of my most adult moments, because I realized if I told him if I spoke first, and told him that I had cancer, he was not gonna break up with me because he was a good person, most people wouldn't. And I had to choose not to tell him and I'm an advocate for telling the truth. And we, you know, we've since we are now friends. But, and we've discussed this a lot, and he was like he should have told me. And I still believe that maybe it was the one time that telling the truth wasn't the right thing to do. And it's just spent an interesting experience of in that moment, I just set a decided not to tell him so that he could choose to break up with me. And that was one of the most painful experiences because now I was like, I'm gonna have to do this alone. Deal with this alone. And I remember just like, being so shocked by it. And both both things at the same time of being like sitting out, sitting on the bathroom floor and being like, I don't know, if I think I might pass out like, the emotional pain was quite a lot. And and at that moment, I didn't pass out. So maybe I was maybe I was at the 60%. And I didn't realize it but at that moment, I was just like, What am I even like, as a being any kind of set stepped outside of myself a little bit. And it's like, well, you're still alive. So you might start fighting for your life. But this Yeah,

Lynn: 53:36

but that that moment, because you're already carrying that diagnosis as you walk up those stairs, and then you see his face and no, it's, it's going to be a double whammy. And those are the big ones. Like rejection and cancer are pretty big.

Stevie: 53:52

Yeah, I felt rejected by the universe and by by my person who I thought my person was, but you know, like the amazing thing that was actually a package, I got to unwrap I, that experience, I needed to have cancer to become a better version of myself to embrace life and be the person whom my husband got to me. And thank goodness, this person is not the person that broke up with me is now a really close friend. But I am so grateful every day, because I can see now how we didn't fit. And I got to meet my husband, because I let go of that relationship. And it's just you know, that Buddhist non attachment is a real thing. The universe always has a better plan for you. And it is so scary because our minds want to control everything. We want to be in control and we just kind of have to make peace with the fact that we're not and you know what, that's actually better? Yeah,

Lynn: 54:46

well, that's, I've often I've often heard it said give up control to get control meaning that if you give up control of thinking you know, then what you have control of is dancing with whatever the universe is giving you Absolutely. And that's where our control is, is okay, this is what's happening, how do I respond as opposed to constantly reacting and trying to grab control back? This being said, by the biggest Control Freak you've probably ever met in your life? I've really been working hard on this.

Stevie: 55:15

Man, I mean, I think we've, we've all been there too, you know, actually having cancer was the thing that helped me like, let go of I was a very type A personality, like, I would go on trips. And and also my husband has helped me with this. He's like a little bit more in flow with the universe than I was when I met him. But if I would go on trips, I would have like a spreadsheet and a binder and like, know exactly where I was staying every night. And literally, like, met Dylan. And it was mind blowing. He's like, Yeah, okay, well, we'll just book a ticket, we're going to Tanzania to run this race, we'll figure out where we're staying when we're there. And I was like, what? And it always works out. And it's sort of like, that's been a precursor for me for understanding this law of abundance, which is not that there's an excess of anything, but there's always just enough, the universe will always give you just enough or just what you need. Yeah, I'm kind of just trusting it. That's been, it's a lesson I have to relearn every day. That's

Lynn: 56:10

and that's, you know, if you think about it, that particular idea that we will be provided for not an excess, but will be provided for is an undergirding of so many of the spiritual practices and religions. Absolutely, we can just remember to trust it. But the modern society again, has trained us have a lot of excess. Yeah, yeah.

Stevie: 56:33

Yeah. And I think that's a survival thing, too. Like, we also I've also started, you know, we get if you want to call your ego, like your default mode, network of survival, kind of those things being held synonymously, as a part of you, there's a lot of in spiritual practice advocation, of eradication of the ego. And I was on that path for a while and, and then I kind of realized, well, I think that you just need to make peace with it, or be in a symbiotic relationship with it, because it is probably going to be a part of you. Because I'm, I'm pretty certain I'm not hitting enlightenment in this lifetime. I'm working towards it. But there's a lot of work to do there. So my ego is going to be on board. And that's not a bad thing that that that is the piece of you that I've started to try to think of it instead of ego as your preservation mechanism. Yeah. You know, and, yeah,

Lynn: 57:30

yeah. Well, to me, I was thinking, I think, what just came up, as you were saying, that is, I hadn't quite thought of it that way. But it's really about whether your ego becomes a part of your repertoire, as opposed to the thing that's running you. So does it have you or do you have it? In other words?

Stevie: 57:47

Yes, absolutely. And it's just, you know, and I don't know quite how to differentiate it, this all becomes murky, but I often think we're also fighting our mind, like the thinking mind. And a way that I've thought about the way we use our minds is that they actually generally use us, hence quite a lot of insanity in the world. So we're using a tool. And the tool is using us. And I think of the mind is any other tool like a knife. So a knife in the hand of a sculptor can create few beautiful arts. But a knife in the hand of a murderer can end a life. So I think our mind is exactly that's a knife, it can create beautiful things, if we're mastery of it. Or it can do horrendous things, if it's our just survival mechanism running it. And it's, it's an interesting, these pieces that make us up or interesting to be observed and attempted to understand. It's

Lynn: 58:44

a conversation I'm in not, I do talk about the mind a lot, but also just our life, I often ask my clients, are you running your life? Or is your life running you? And it's it really is it is the mind that we're talking about? We're saying is your life reading you? And most people haven't. I mean, it's a it's a freedom to them to realize, Wow, you actually do have some choice. And yeah, I sometimes I started and this can be with very senior executives, I start with how do you think about your calendar, like who gets dibs on your time? And when they start running their calendar, as opposed to letting the calendar run them that sets off a whole cascade of actions. But they've been trained, especially with the silly calendar systems and companies that say anybody can put an appointment on your calendar, which I just never understood that it's being a good idea. Oh, yeah. Can you imagine like having somebody like you come in in the morning and you find out that every block of free time on your calendar has been taken up by somebody else's meeting.

Stevie: 59:48

Oh, man, life's running you there. Yeah.

Lynn: 59:52

And they feel like if I want to keep my job, this is what I have to do. And I remember when I work with people lower in The organization they actually think there's this point where at the top of the organization, they get free of that. And I'm like, oh, no, I work with CEOs. We've worked with this same thing. Oh my gosh, because the, it's the it's not checking out assumptions. And our mind is an assumption making machine. Yeah, right. And you talked about interpretation earlier. But it's like making these assumptions, and we're not checking them out. And if you don't stress test your assumptions, you're being basically run by just a bunch of guesses.

Stevie: 1:00:31

That's exactly what you're talking about bringing awareness to these paradigms, like, as you said, you ask people like, as you're like running you, and then like, why is that like, and you realize that you can't, sometimes you come up against some really silly parameters you've set for yourself, and you never consciously observed them. Really interesting. Yeah.

Lynn: 1:00:51

And we haven't consciously observed, like, this fear of getting fired, which in a lot of cases is right next to that fear of death. Because I call it the homeless sequence. And people will make a mistake at work, depending on the size and scope is how fast this the homeless sequence goes into effect, but it is who I've made a mistake, this is going to cause me a problem, I might even get fired. And if I get fired, I'm not sure I can have another job. And if I can't have another job, I'll go through my savings, or I'll end up on the street. And that's on homeless and so it's almost like being dead. And they don't even stop to go Do you know how hard it would be to fire you? Like, do you know what a pain in the butt it would be to lose your your skills here and this organization? And you know, then they'll look at? Well, yeah, when's the last time you fired? Somebody? Well, I mean, I haven't done it in a while, or somebody that was, like, so egregious. And it's like, well, how many people do you have? Think they're afraid they're gonna get fired? And he's like, a lot of them. But you're not going to fire them? Right? No. So why do you think you're gonna get fired? And it's like, tested that, that, you know, what? And once they start becoming aware, if we all I mean, I'm, I say this out loud on my podcast, because I know, I've got listeners to say, hey, if you're thinking like this, look, again, because you can maybe get your hand back on the throttle.

Stevie: 1:02:11

Absolutely. Yeah. That's, that's a really good point. And, you know, it's also that negative, our mind really has that negative bias just by survival instinct. So of course, we think the worst.

Lynn: 1:02:24

Yeah, it kind of has to. I mean, what I love about working under pressure is especially like cold plunges is a great example. It's put yourself in a difficult situation where you know, your nervous system is going to go where and then show it that you can, it doesn't have to, and they I think of it as reaching for your Tools instead of your rules. Like, when we're in the cold plunge. Our body I had 30 seconds to every single time I go in at 30 seconds, my body from the inside out, says, Oh, we're not getting out. Okay, I'll hit you up.

Stevie: 1:03:02

Yes, I find that right at 30 seconds to the first 30 seconds. If I can breathe through that. Then I'm like, I'm fine. Yeah, I'm fine. Yeah.

Lynn: 1:03:12

Now I do have to negotiate to get my hands and go a little lower. You know, sometimes my arms don't want to go in. Totally, but the same visit with the same thing is like once you put them in, it's like, keep breathing, and just the act and it was somebody maybe at the podcast Summit. I think that said, if you can keep your breath, where the exhale is longer than the inhale it might have been matter it might have been me listening to Andrew Huber and I can't remember because we had a couple of scientists at the podcast summit as well but if you can do that it tells your nervous system we're okay you don't have to run things. So it's it's a matter of is your Higher Self running things or is your nervous system ie fear mode running you?

Stevie: 1:04:02

Absolutely. Absolutely. I definitely think a lot about higher self and and also then like ego or Default Mode Network and those kinds of being separate entities just an a way for me to think about things. But I think about like type two fun and type one funds type two fun everyone's heard of which is basically in the moment it feels difficult but afterwards you're like that was awesome. Cool. Plunging could be is a great example or a running Yeah, like what Yeah. And type one fun is just kind of a joke that type one fun is like it's fun while you're doing it, it's fun afterwards and then and then we have a joke that there's type three fun which was it's not fun to do while you're doing it's not fun. When you look back on it like a good example is maybe like taking out the garbage or something

Lynn: 1:04:47

never fun. Yeah.

Stevie: 1:04:51

And, and type two fun has been an interesting one for me because I think a lot of I deal with that quite a bit and doing doing hard things. And, and I've noticed that as I'm running, and I'm not a gifted runner or anything, and that's actually why I really like it, it's hard for me. I found in the moment if I can tell myself be here now. And I kind of like, repeat this as a mantra, I'm actually kind of almost in an ecstasy of what my body can do. And, and it's only as I slip out of the present with my mind, like being like, oh, where's the destination, where, you know, like, if my mind takes over, then it's not fun. It's kind of type two fun where afterwards, I feel great. But I think of type two fun is actually what your soul craves. So your higher self is enjoying, but your ego doesn't enjoy. And that's fine. Like my new definition of type two fun. So like, what does your soul want you to do? Or your higher self versus in? And your ego maybe doesn't like and that's really where a lot of magic happens in spiritual and emotional and mental growth? is are these type two situations? Don't do the type three things that are hard during and you don't feel like you had any benefit after? I mean, you probably have to take out the garbage. But and yeah, so maybe that is even type two, because after the chores done, you're kind of like get to check it off the list. So maybe I don't have a good type three. Okay, don't put your hand on a burner. You know.

Lynn: 1:06:28

That's That's exactly right. But never fun. But I do yeah, I do think some of the daily chores can kind of fall into that chop wood and carry waterside idea of enlightenment, which is, are you here now? Like, instead of carrying out the garbage trying to get to back to watching the football game or whatever? It's like, this is what I'm doing for the next five minutes. This is it? Yeah, and, you know not, I feel like my my ego lurches from goal to goal if I don't work on it. Like it doesn't want to. It wants to rush ahead to the end. Yeah.

Stevie: 1:07:03

Yeah, absolutely. And here, so I've listened to a lot of ultra running podcasts. And I've learned some great things just about life from those but one that's really changed my perspective, while Ultra running is this guy was saying he was running with another runner. And they were both like, top Ultra athletes possibility of winning this 100 mile race. And the one guy said, can't wait till this to the finish line. He got one guy was talking about the finish line. And he and the guy that was speaking about talking to this guy, said, I knew in this moment, that moment, I was going to win the race, because he was already focused on the end, and not being in the moment. And that and somehow resonated so deeply with me, that I've learned, I don't even you know, people talk about like getting through endurance horse races or running races by like, counting down getting to the next aid station. And I found that actually sometimes becomes hard, really hard when you're like thinking about like, your joy will be in this next moment, instead of being like, Your joy is here now. So I will sometimes just tell myself, you're running like this forever, like I just tell myself, you're not stopping. So it kind of releases the mind of having a destination. And, and that Be Here Now repeat that I play in my head really makes me just like, center on the moment. And there's a lot more joy to be had, like a very micro version of destination addiction. Because it's, you know, a race is over and two to six hours. But if you can be present in each of the single moments in that six hours, versus like having your mind waiting for you at the finish line. And causing a lot of suffering along the way, let's seems to make all the difference. It's just a massive practice and presence. It's really helped. And also smiling. I've also like taught myself smile, you're enjoying this. And that's like faking it till you make it like moments, I've actually found that that helps helps create joy.

Lynn: 1:09:05

You know, it's amazing what smiling can do for you, especially if you can do it in those moments I've had when I'm waterskiing. I've had people say to me, you know, if you try smiling and see what happens, and especially if we're doing a photo shoot or something, you know, if you can I have pictures of me and I literally this is actually how I figured out how scared I was of my offside because there's an onside and an offside. Early on, somebody took a picture. As I was coming around the ball, which is in my case, it's the one out to the right, so I'm making a left turn back towards the center. And the look on my face, you would have thought that I was going around the Loch Ness monster with his jaws wide open. I looked like I was looking into the abyss. And then when I started practicing, like smiling, it became a totally different like you're not afraid of it. It's like it goes poof

Stevie: 1:10:00

I mean to have that smile, it changes and softens your body, right. And this is coming back into horse riding for me or like cold plunging. So you you've probably experienced this like in the cold or even if you're standing outside in the cold, your body might tense and hunched up to brace against that. Yep. But you know, first you breathe through your cold plunges, then you start to try to relax within it. And if you can relax all those muscles, it's like this this in, you know, in a spiritual sense, this Buddhist idea of acceptance, and you really just relax into what you're doing that from cold plunging into horses relaxing and changing your body, smiling, all of this totally, totally changes your lens. Even if you're you're forcing yourself to relax, it starts to change. I'm quite sure it's changing the chemistry in your brain and releasing different endorphins and things. So it's like your your body felt that body mind. Emotion connection changes. So you know, what can you control? Maybe you can't control your emotion in that moment. Maybe you can't control your thoughts, but maybe then you can start with your body. So can you make a smile? Can you make it relaxed? And then that that sends reverberate reverberating waves back into motion and mind? Yep. Interesting. Well, what

Lynn: 1:11:27

I've also found with the same thing with emotion, is if I will ask people that I'm working with that are in a heavy emotion to just be with it and start like, sometimes I'll even say I want you to tell me where you feel it in your body? Where do you experience it? What color is it? What shape? Is it? Is it moving? As they start to like, and I'm asking simply for observation, so that they are with it. It actually lets them ride through it, and then the emotion can pass through. But when we clench it stays in. Yeah. And when it's as simple as just writing it like a wave of emotions come and go and let him just move on through and experience them. It changes. I think that's the root of a lot of our illness is not letting emotions pass on through. We try to brace against them and stop them. And we do we stop them in our body. And then they absolutely,

Stevie: 1:12:24

absolutely, I deeply agree with that.

Lynn: 1:12:28

But I want to talk about the endorphins for a second because I feel like we way underestimate the power of these natural chemicals that we get when we've done something difficult. Or when we're in the middle of doing something difficult, like the endorphin kick from, you know, being in the cold punch, for example. Yeah.

Stevie: 1:12:51

Well, I would say on my end, scientifically, I don't have a lot of a lot of data off the top of my head that's not borrowed from Huberman lab. But I definitely think I think there's a book called dopamine nation that I read at one point, and it just sort of backed up this idea of why we need to do hard things. And that comes back to our nervous systems, being so coddled by the current system that we live in, where you know, if you don't want to do anything hard, I think I think actually, it might have been Jane pike that on the first summit, spoke about this talking about, like, if you wanted to, like shut yourself in a room, you could have everything delivered to you, like you could live in a padded, padded room, and not interact with anything in a negative or scary way. And that is a little bit how we're living these days. And that was not what we were designed for, we're designed to have that line come after us in the darkness, have our nervous system spike. And then we would run away from it or getting butt away from it. And then our nervous system was would go back into rest and digest. So we were meant to go through these waves of, of emotion and feeling and let them pass and and now because we don't have them traveling through our bodies, often I think we're instead getting we're overreacting to the smallest things because our nervous system is looking for something so like not being able to find our cell phone one morning is a nervous system equivalent of being attacked by a lion, because that's what it was built for. So we're having these meltdowns over things that seem are very insignificant. And then I think we additionally judge ourselves for that, like why am I so upset and anxious over this something so stupid, you know, and then so now we're building on it. Like, we're not just having this experience of not being able to find our cell phone. Now. We're also judging ourselves for how we're reacting to it. But I think that we should circle back and sort of understand our nervous system and be like, well, this is the way I was designed. I was designed to have this reaction so I could get away from a lion. And, and that's where this physical difficult or doing physically difficult things is important because we, we are meant to run away from a lion occasionally. So going out and doing a run, or doing a cold plunge or doing something that actually does shock our nervous system and we are successfully able to get out the other side is going to help us now have things move through us. This is a physical creation of an emotional situation. So we're going to have emotions that come up when we go to step in the cold plunge or when we go to do a couple mile run. And we get to deal with those and let them pass through us which you are saying it's so important. And this is what stops us from having disease. If we're if we're just sitting indoors and having these emotions over losing our cell phone, but not having an outlet of which to let these emotions pass through us or have a system in which our body knows how to let things pass through us. This is causing the Yeah, the physical and mental issues that we're dealing

Lynn: 1:16:02

with? Well, there is there is the sacred is being knowing it and being aware that you know, the book that I really loved for that was Peter Levine's waking the Tiger I have not read while he talks about how a wild animals, you know, right after the lion has taken one of the gazelles the rest of the gazelles after they've run, just literally you can see it like the shutter run down there, the side of their bodies, they shake it off. And they let the adrenaline all go and they go back to grazing as if nothing happened. And it's because they were present in the moment of the danger. And when the danger passed, they came back to being in a calm state, rather than constantly guarded. Because I mean, if you think about it, you could go about life just constantly looking going. Where's the scary thing?

Stevie: 1:16:59

Absolutely. And

Lynn: 1:17:01

yeah, makes me think about that picture you had of the scary plastic bag and the horse in the paddock. And he's looking at the, in your, in your speech? Yes. And, and the horse is saying, Oh, I believe you need the dressage horses in the other side. And I, you know, when I had two horses that I leased for a few months to help a friend out while she was going off for a huge opportunity at an art event in Scottsdale. And so I had her two horses, and one day I was riding one of them out by myself, you know, not, not far but around the property. And this one woman says, Man, you better be careful, she goes, a plastic bag comes by, you know, or something. And I said, You know what this will I trust this horse. And because he was the kind of horse that just looked at plastic bags like that, like, whatever. And, you know, literally, that's what we can all do for ourselves is give ourselves that nervous system, reset by training it to be okay, when we put ourselves under pressure, and not judge ourselves. I think, I think that's another thing that we talk don't talk enough about is why do we beat ourselves up so much? Do you have a theory about that?

Stevie: 1:18:15

That's a you know, I can't say off the top of my head that I do. I want to now I'm gonna think about this and have a really like at 2am tonight or tomorrow morning? Oh, no great response to this.

Lynn: 1:18:33

Well, and I'm not saying that you do. But you mentioned, you know, that we judge ourselves for for that. And I know you coach a lot of people through scary things as I do. It's different scary things. I'm coaching people to talk to the Board of Directors, you know, but But it's, you know, they do, I do have a lot of clients, and I've still catch myself, I'm working on it. But I do have a lot of people and we're beating yourself up seems to be the thing to do. To fix it. At least that's what people believe. You

Stevie: 1:19:04

know, I think I think it's just a bit of giving our mind too much power as a tool. Because it's all anything that has like a narrative and a story is kind of is the mind the mind loves to create stories and patterns and meaning. And it definitely has a wonderful ability to do so. But it also also it doesn't care what the story is. It doesn't care if it's negative and damaging to tell it which is really interesting to observe and know about your mind. It just wants to have a reason more meaning and it will continually come up with with possibilities. It's like a computer it's like an AI like GPT chat and you put the input is this was the situation, how is it my fault? How can I get better and then it's coming up with all you keep different iterations. It just wants to have an answer. And that's the problem with the mind like some sometimes there aren't answers immediately, right? Like, it's, it's a bigger picture. And I think the mind is just so programmed to tell a story and to have a story. And that's, you know, this is where you have to step outside of yourself and really observe that and be like, where's the story coming from? Does it have any foundation in a reality? Like you said, like, observing like, Am I really gonna get fired? Because it means like, Oh, you're gonna get fired. And again, that's gonna have that negative bias, because that's the mind, the mind is a tool that tells stories, and has a negative bias, it is a survival tool. So it doesn't apply all the time. And we have to be really observant of that. Well,

Lynn: 1:20:39

that, like, what I'm hearing is I hear you describe it as having that power, again, to hit the internet button and to be aware and say, Is this really true? Absolutely is a super powerful thing. And I also had this other insight as you were talking about seeking the mind seeking stories. Have you seen the there's a lot of people putting out on different places read it, and I've seen it even on Facebook that am I the asshole here, and they tell a story about something that happened? And then they say, am I the asshole for not letting my drunk brother have come in to the house for Thanksgiving, or whatever the story might be? Have you seen those?

Stevie: 1:21:18

No,

Lynn: 1:21:18

I haven't. I think it's this I think it's that phenomenon is people like trying, trying to find a story and maybe even a way to justify their behavior. Absolutely.

Stevie: 1:21:32

Yeah, I think I think we were all looking for that. Right. And actually, that story gives me heart, I do believe all all humans at a deep level just want to be a good person. And so there's like a little bit of seeking that in that. Like, was I right?

Lynn: 1:21:48

Yeah, I do think that's I think that's right. I think everybody does want to be a good person. And a lot of times I have found, when I'm working with people, I'll often say don't hit their mistake button. Meaning when they're going to work with someone that you might have to have a confrontation with, they've done something, you know, they broken agreement, or whatever it's like, so if you're just leading change, and trying to help people do things a new way, it's like if you tell them they did it wrong, hit their mistake button, their defenses will come up, and then you're in a whole different conversation. So it's like dancing that tightrope to help them find a way to see a new way without making the old way wrong. Because they were doing the best they could at the time generally. Like, I know very few people who get up in the morning, say, I think I'm just gonna screw everybody in my life. Oh, my gosh,

Stevie: 1:22:39

I say that all the time. Do you really? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, everyone's doing the best they can in the moment. Yep.

Lynn: 1:22:48

Yep. And I mean, I, my quick shortcut. I wrote an entire book on this called the elegant pivot, but it's about if you can just remember to assume positive intent, then you can open the gateway to your curiosity, and say, okay, they didn't mean it bad. Now, what did they mean?

Stevie: 1:23:08

Absolutely. Yeah. That's a wonderful, wonderful way to look at it, and how on good days, I tried to look at the world. On

Lynn: 1:23:16

good days, well, I still struggle with it. And like I jumped because I told a story in the, in the book about and I also my TED Talk. So it's kind of in the public world, about me being a complete jerk in the airport. Because I wasn't assuming positive intent. I was assuming negative intent. I was upset with somebody being in the right, the expert travel lane when she clearly was not an expert traveler. But, but so it's like, I can't read your book in the airport. If people know who I don't I don't have that many people who know who I am. But anyway, the the point being I still struggle, even though I wrote a book on it, even though I made it a practice that I wanted to do. And I think that's what makes the human life so interesting is we just keep plugging away.

Stevie: 1:23:57

Huh, yeah, we, we can know that. I think that is the most frustrating thing along the path of self improvement is you know, what you need to work on or you know how to handle something, and you still struggle to handle it in the way that you'd like to? Like, yes, then I think that's where it's, you know, like, we're just kind of that mind that mind is a tool. Yeah, an interesting tool.

Lynn: 1:24:23

But maybe that's what makes it interesting. Maybe that's what we're all about is just, you know, how do we just every single day, make a little bit of a difference for people and do a little bit better by ourselves? And, you know, give ourselves credit for what where we have come because I think one of the things I have to remind myself often is Look how far you've come. Yeah.

Stevie: 1:24:48

Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's also helpful. It's a little

Lynn: 1:24:54

bit like going on a mountain. You know, I'm sure you've done those runs or those mountains where you keep thinking of Okay, once I reached this hill, that's it. That's, that's the peak. And then you kind of rich come over that rise and go. And there's more to go. Yes, yeah, I

Stevie: 1:25:10

think, you know, again, the mind always wants to have a destination. And I think that's kind of a new New World spiritual shift of being like, there is no destination kind of in anything. Like it is just about the journey. And it comes back to that prep practice of presence and being in the moment and being grateful for what there is in the moment. Because, because, and going out on an existential level, like, they're really all that is real is the present moment, anything that happened in the past is held by your mind, and anything that's projected to be future is held by your mind. So it's all imagination, all imaginary. So there is nothing but the actual present moment of the world happening. And, and that's kind of wild, when you think about it, you kind of think of things on timelines and, and I think animals definitely are a little more present. And humans, we have this wonderful tool of the mind, but it does do a lot of projection which anxiety is associated with projecting future and depression is often associated with hanging out in the past, and it's so it's like our suffering is actually done in in places that aren't real, like a future in the past. That's wild. Like if we were just present, we'd be a whole lot happier. It's

Lynn: 1:26:27

not that that's not what's happening right now. So yeah, let me let that go. I always call anxiety, fear soup. You know, people say they have anxiety. And I'm like, well explain to me all the different emotions that are in there, because it's not an emotion in and of itself. It's the product of all the emotions that you're afraid of. And that that almost makes it go poof, they're like, Well, wait a minute.

Stevie: 1:26:51

You know, I used to actually struggle with anxiety and damagingly would refer to myself as an anxious person, person, I think it's really bad when you include that in your narrative of who you are. But I've had quite a lot of shifts over time that have contributed to me really not having much anxiety, but one of them was actually less planning. So I think planning is important. And you can do the things that you need to do like you can book the hotel room, or like, make sure your truck has a full tank of diesel before you head out, like those planning things are important. But over planning becomes a deep attachment to outcomes that like You're like but you know, like if you have very strict parameters, and you've planned everything to a tee, like I was talking about planning a trip in the past with a binder and having a spreadsheet, you know, like when things didn't go as planned, I panicked that, you know, it wasn't in the plan. And I've over time shifted to kind of trusting that things will work out. And then when you have no no projected outcome, you in fact, are more free, you're free to enjoy what actually is. And this is something I felt that I really wanted to talk about on your podcast, this new concept I have recently sort of come across in my mind, I have these like little mind jury journeys, they go on where a couple months, I'll start thinking about things. And this is a brand new one. So it's not very well thought out. But I'm really intrigued by it. And I used to run with my phone to track my progress. And I started just not even bringing it with me not even having music to listen to all I run just being practicing being really present and deciding, seeing how far I can run and be with my body and listen to my body. And my been find out how far Sorry, got a little tripped up. In my words there. I am starting to run just listening to my body and turning around and going home when I feel like I've run far enough. And it's going along with an idea of abandoning metrics to a degree. I think humans love to say like how many miles like this, it kind of got brought up because I teach a lot of kids how to ride horses, and they're learning to do endurance, they're all wanting to do that. And they'll be like, how many miles did we do? How many miles do we do and it started to really bother me. Because for a couple of reasons, a there, you could do one uphill mile running. And that's really, really difficult. But a flat mile might be really easy. So that's where miles become a fairly bad metric of understanding how much work you did, or how much you accomplished because there's distance there's duration, and there's difficulty in every mile. And and I think about those three days of endurance. And I started asking the kids, how much fun did you have? And they're like, kind of confused that like, wait, no, how many miles do we do and I'm like, why does it matter? And I know like as a child you're trying to integrate and have relatable experiences with adults and I know there's a lot of psychology behind that. But I've started to try to ask them like did you have a fun time with your horse? like we're trying to change the narrative like to get away from these metrics. And now I've started to experience things with the horses and with myself in training for endurance races, like feeling when the horse is done or feeling like how much joy they're having, I'm like, Okay, well, today, instead of, instead of going and doing 1010 miles, because I think that's what we need to do, I'm going to just let this horse gallop until it doesn't want to, we'll walk a little bit and then gallop again. And, you know, that's just like sprint and walks, that's great training, I'm starting to listen to what their bodies want to do. And I'm listening to what my body wants to do. And I find that sometimes I'll even do more than I expected, like, I can kind of later be like, I know this landmark. And I think it was about this many miles, if I do want to go back and see what I did, but I'm starting to try to abandon metrics and training and come back into my body, which is also sort of teaching me animal communication with that horse, right? Like, I'm noticing what they're noticing. And then it's also with communication with my body teaching me intuition. So I'm getting I'm basically training through intuitive senses.

Lynn: 1:31:13

I mean, that's, that's my message of signal versus noise, I think is what is the signal, the real signal, not the noise? Of what my body's telling me?

Stevie: 1:31:23

Yeah, metrics. Metrics are noise. A lot of times, and that's again, mind, you know, the mind wants to know how many miles have, you know, and then,

Lynn: 1:31:33

and then it wants to compare, because it's like, Okay, how many miles did they do if we did this? How many whoever they use, right? Or how did that compare to Yesterday, I saw that post you did on Facebook, about all the things that the kids had accomplished. When you took that out and just said, we're coming, we're going to show up every day, and sort of follow the feel and what the horses want to do and what we want to do. And that's so counterintuitive, I can even find myself having noise about it's like, that sounds perfect. And then another part of me is like, but how would you ever accomplish anything?

Stevie: 1:32:07

Oh, my gosh, yeah. I mean, even myself, I was talking to one of my students who's 12. And the two of us were, like, in disbelief of how far we come. She was she was saying, you know, we've been taking lessons with you for about a year. And she's like, can you believe it? Like, my younger brother is now galloping, and he was afraid to canner. And like, we're just like, we're kind of both like, in awe that we had no goals. For the year, it was just like, we're gonna show up every day and ride horses, like that's about as loose as it was and, and I've just sort of let them I've decided, oh, it's like Montessori style, we'll see where the horse is at in the day. And we're going to see where the kid what the child wants to do. And usually, it'll be like, I want to gallop. And let's say this is a goal that this kid has said for the day. And I'm like, alright, well, if we want to gallop, we need to know how to walk first and feel comfortable then trot then canner. So we kind of go through all the steps. And another one, another great example was one of the kids. And this like, brings tears to my eyes. So one of the kids during winter, we get some snow here in Central Oregon. And he was like, I want the horse that he works with his name hero. He's like, I want hero to pull me in a sled. And I said, Absolutely. Let's figure out how we do that. Let's break it down. So over the course of about four or five lessons, we we worked with the horse and the sled getting him used to it, you're like titration methods and, and just like general horsemanship, and on the I think it was like the fifth lesson or so. And I know this horse, well, we were both like, Okay, this is the day that you can go ahead and have him pull you in the sled and he went through, we always kind of check to make sure the base is there every day. So we went back through the steps quickly, just to make sure that the horse is feeling okay with everything. And he he was like, You know what, and this isn't bitten this kid's goal. He's like, You know what, here did so good with all the steps? He doesn't need to pull me in the sled today. I'm okay with it. Like, it was like a total abandonment of that goal and an appreciation of the journey he had gone on with that horse like it was about the relationship. Wow. And that was an incredible moment for me like I cried. And it was just like you are an incredible horseman because it had become about the journey to him which is really a great metaphor for life and and you know eventually did pull them in the sled but that he wasn't he had already like didn't care too much anymore about being pulled in the sled. He had just like had so much joy in the process. And I mean, like that's like what what more can you teach? Right? Okay, that

Lynn: 1:34:41

is that is it right there. I mean, that is the meaning of life because if we have this big goal galloping, it's one of my goals. I've only galloped a couple of times on a horse. Like really galloped and that's one of the reasons I want to come see you. Yeah, because I want Learn how to gallop on a horse. And, but it's not unlike and in fact to somewhat in some ways, the journey started when I remember sitting in on Bruce's porch and said, Okay, how about riding lessons? Would you give me riding lessons? And he said, Okay, he said, What is our picture you're going to ever get back on the horse that you fell off of? And at that stage, the answer was yes. But I didn't know if that was ever going to be possible. I was so afraid. And he said, Okay, that's all I need to know. He says, Now forget about that goal. We're going to start at the beginning. And break it down step by step. And it was many, many, many lessons. And he wasn't the person that I actually got back on the horse with because it wasn't his horse. But the journey ended up becoming why I'm so enamored with horses. Now, it had nothing to do with getting back on that horse. If that's all I wanted to do. I could have done it much sooner, I would have gotten back on and then said, Okay, wash my hands of it, I'm done. But instead, the journey has become so fascinating that now I'm looking at it and like looking and by the way, on that very horse the other day, it was I was we're, I'm always in the league with him, because it's through the same three horses. He loves to be in front. And he does. He very rarely wants to run. But the other day as we were going up a hill, he asked if he could run and I said yes. And it was the most fun we've ever had together. He was like, Yeah, we get to run together. And that's like a piece towards learning to gallop on a horse, we were just cantering up the hill, you know, is in some ways that my journey started way back then. And, again, it's not about the being able to do it. It's about the journey that matters the most, I think, exactly

Stevie: 1:36:47

like, you may may well come here and gallop on our horses, but that may not have Canary you may not. But that moment of cantering with him was all the joy that you could imagine anyways. Yeah, right there on the journey,

Lynn: 1:37:00

right there. And the fact that he asked, like he said, Hanway. And I said, What the heck he wants to go. And, you know, I turned around, I said, Hey, guys, he wants to run and we ran for a little bit. And then we went back to the wall, because the these are older horses, the horse in the back is 28. So we don't run long distances. And he's 25. But he was just, he was just so happy. He was like, Yay, we got to run.

Stevie: 1:37:28

I love that. And, and I truly believe horses, like, you know, humans, we have our minds, which are these tools that we really need to we're on this earth to figure out how to master them. But horses have these amazing bodies, that is their athleticism is their gift in the world and their purpose in the world. And I do think they have a lot of joy in sharing that with us.

Lynn: 1:37:48

I every time I go catch them. And the way we catch these particular horses is basically usually they'll just come running. But if I go out in the field, sometimes I don't even have to put up a halter on any of them. There's one we put the halter on, and everybody else comes in. But I remember one day and I videoed it because they all just said, Okay, let's go and they, they took off and I just looked at him and I thought I get to borrow that power. Yeah, and ride that energy that is such a gift. And it's so cool that they offer it to us.

Stevie: 1:38:19

And it's so wonderful that you see it is that I think that's one of the most important things in our relationships with horses is to have that gratitude and reverence for what they give us.

Lynn: 1:38:30

Yeah. And they love to play, like every time I go out now to catch any of them. If I'm if I'm catching, I just say hey, you want to go play? And generally they say yes. Right?

Stevie: 1:38:43

It's absolutely, yeah, I really, you know, I've, I've questioned in the past, like, should we even ride horses? Is that right? And I've had some conversations with some really wonderful people about this and kind of come to the conclusion that it depends on why we want to do that which is true of anything so this can be you know, horses are always a metaphor for life. Right? And I I'll ask myself, like, Why do I want to do this with a horse? Is it in pursuit of ego? Or is it you know, like accomplishing something or having like, like, you can even go to a horse show and if it's in pursuit of winning the trophy and that's what you want and need then maybe it's not right that you're riding that horse and using them in that way. But if you're going to a horse show and you're like I truly want to see how well we can do together and I'm curious and interested in our relationship and if we can communicate correctly and and get over these fences in this order and and if we don't, it's okay, it's about our relationship then then if you're going at the goal in a curious manner, have to see what you can accomplish that then it's right on it's just like with just like with people are you trying to befriend this person to get something out of them? Are you befriending them because you truly appreciate them and what are curious about them and how Are they see the world?

Lynn: 1:40:01

Oh, that's a beautiful analogy. I've often explained that to people, especially, that are leaving the corporate world and looking at going out on their own. And I said, you know, you're gonna have to learn how to have relationships that are not transactional. Hmm. You know, because in your world, you're so used to trading favors, not unlike politics, just general politics, then you, if you go out and try to start your own business, from the space of just transactional relationships, you're going to fall, it just won't work. You have to learn how to have relationships for the sake of the connection. The deepest, you know, a true connection, a true relationship connection, not what can you do for me, just

Stevie: 1:40:46

kind of just like romantic relationships, right? Where like, you better not be keeping a scorecard, you gotta be doing it in pursuit of really just wanting to give that person the absolute best of yourself. I think horses and personal relationships are a great, great tool for introspection.

Lynn: 1:41:04

It's so true. And the word that keeps coming up through this conversation, and a lot of the conversations I've been experiencing is just can you stay curious? Hmm.

Stevie: 1:41:17

Yeah, I think that puts it in that like more lighthearted lens of seeing the world I've, for me, I really, I don't think I ever came up organically with the idea of curiosity, but have very much respected and resonated with the people have said, mentioned curiosity. So now I'm using that word too. But I've, I had a period of kind of resonating a lot with humor. And finding that like I needed to not take things seriously. So humor, for me is a great way, I guess to enact play, like going back to Christine Dixon, who had a speech about the importance of play in the world. But all these things curiosity, play, humor, kind of like childlike eyes, observing the world. I think the reason children have curiosity and play and humor is because they're not indoctrinated yet, by all these ridiculous paradigms that we sort of talked about earlier in the podcast. These, these things, these unobserved subconscious ideas we have children are unencumbered by those, and so they have a lot more joy. And that's what we're all trying to get back to is that joy? Well, we'll look at what they're doing. You know, like your, you should emulate the people you want to be. And I'm always trying to emulate my eight year old self. It's why I do what I do in the world and probably look a little ridiculous to maybe people on a different path. But emulating children is something I'm trying to do so have more play, had more curiosity, have more wonder. And that will create more joy.

Lynn: 1:42:59

I, early on did the same thing. I actually wrote it in my journal that I want to go back to being my eight year old self, the carefree version, the carefree version of myself. And I think to a large degree, that's what I've been working on, ever since, is like, how do I release some of these adult rules and domestication and constraints that were put on me and find the little girl at eight years old that love to paint and ride horses and roller skate? And you know, that's the age allander waterski? All those things?

Stevie: 1:43:35

Absolutely. Yeah, I think I think it's a great lens to put on how would my eight year old self view this? A lot of that is like a not having judgment, and then be that not worrying about the the judgment others might have on us.

Lynn: 1:43:52

And that's a big one right there.

Stevie: 1:43:54

Yeah. Again, easy to say harder to do,

Lynn: 1:43:59

especially when you start being judged, and you find that you are losing friends or business or something over having crossed some line that you didn't even know you crossed. Like one of the one of the lines that I'm seeing a lot with people is in the horse world. And I saw this a little bit in the bar and I was in is when they choose to do things differently with their horse, they get judged. So if they choose to have a deeper relationship, or if they like, say that they're hearing messages from their horse in communication, and the other person doesn't understand it, or they think they're being told they're doing it the wrong way because they're not now handling their horses the same in whatever type of barn they're in. I'm seeing a lot of people really struggle with that.

Stevie: 1:44:51

Yeah, I think I think that's definitely true. And I think to those people, and if you're one of those people listening out there and feeling judgement because you're shifting your consciousness, I think that you can just let the results speak for themselves, you know, you're, they're gonna see that deeper bond that you have with your horse, the deeper relationship you have with other people. I, I would say that there's a meme that I really, really love that makes me think of myself. And it's these three kids on a podium. And the third place kid is like holding up this trophy and smiling and so excited in the first place kid is like crying and looking down and wanting to be the third place, kid. And I feel like I don't have that much stuff, right in life. Like, I'm not winning at a lot of games in the world, necessarily. But I feel like I've started to learn how to be happy with what I have. And then that's shifted. Like, that's shifted other people into being like, curious as to what I'm doing. And it's so weird. It's a weird experience for, for me, and I think everyone deals with impostor syndrome. But I find it really funny. I'm like, I think that, you know, we're not seeking things. We're seeking what we want, how we feel about things. And so I feel like this third place kid that I don't have a lot of things figured out. But I have started to figure out how to maybe be happier with what I do have in front of me. And that's actually all the difference. That's what that's what people want. They want to feel joy for things. And, and I've totally lost sight of how I got here.

Lynn: 1:46:34

Well, I'm sorry, what a shame. But I'm gonna go back. Well, you just dropped a, you just dropped a mic drop, quote. So I'm gonna say it again. We're not seeking things. We're seeking how we feel about things?

Stevie: 1:46:49

Yeah, I would say that's pretty true. Right? Isn't that,

Lynn: 1:46:54

like, if we could just recognize that. So if I feel great for being third place, or having almost finished when I didn't finish, because I know what I've overcome, or whatever, like, we get a lot of choice and how we feel about things.

Stevie: 1:47:10

And I think that's been my new obsession with endurance sports, like I went from a very, like, black and white, like, first, second, third place world of like, raining, and I did lots of different horse disciplines. And, you know, even even back then I used to have, my wonderful quarter horse was always second place. And that was fine with me, we did the all around. And that would usually total up to actually being all around champion, but I never really was winning, but I was super excited by it. And I remember, you know, like, I'm like, Oh, I have the least expensive horse here. And he's like, good enough to get in the top 10 How amazing. And I'd be so excited. And there'd be people that had won. And they're like, I can't wait to get my next horse, you know, like, just upset. And I had, yeah, I mean that, you know, those those realities exist. And I think from a young age horses kind of taught me that, like, there's so much joy to be had a in the process of training them to get there. But be just like being really happy with where you land. And like, I always thought second place was the most amazing. I think that's the most amazing placing, because it's like you're really, really good. But you have stuff to work on, which was such a gift. I think if I had been winning, it would have changed my perspective. And I would have been like, well, and I did have a period of winning, and it was probably the least I learned the least and did the least my writing did not improve for like five years because I was like, Well, I'm as good as I need to be. And, and I wrote a lot, but I wasn't conscious, you know, I wasn't consciously trying to improve anything. So I didn't improve. And I think endurance sports have been an amazing new shift for me both with horses and with myself in the fact that like the American endurance ride conference for horses, their motto is to finish is to win. Hmm. And I love that like I love the non competitive feel of these races. Like there's you know, you can make it whatever you want it to be. But everyone celebrates you just for crossing the finish line and how people celebrate you for getting to the start line. Like the Tevis cup race is the world's toughest 100 for horses. And if you even show up at the start and have a horse that you think can start that race, people are so in awe and supportive of that and insane for ultra running like it's, you know, there's a saying that you don't hate running, you hate running fast. Which means you don't hate. You don't hate running, you hate the pressure you put on yourself to do something. And I've really resonated with endurance run because I'm not strong runner. But I like I like going through a little bit of suffering and I like seeing what my body can do and I love that it's a space where I don't feel pushed to be something it's just about the doing not, not the end result.

Lynn: 1:50:00

I thought, well, that's the message right there. It really is. And there's only so many people at the top anyway, you know, I'm in the conversation with people a lot of times trying to get promotions. And they've gotten addicted to having promotions without recognizing that as you move up in the world, there's only a one number one and an organization. And there's only a one number one on a podium. Yeah, it's apparent, there's only so many of those places. And if you're only going to be satisfied, if you're at the very top all the time, then you're going to spend most of your life not being satisfied.

Stevie: 1:50:36

Oh my gosh, I say this exact thing when I work with people for the Mongol Derby or Gaucho Derby,

Lynn: 1:50:41

is that right?

Stevie: 1:50:42

I say, Yeah, I'm like, it's great that you want to win it. But like, Please don't make that your only goal, because there's a one in 45 chance that like, why would you base your happiness on a one in 45? Chance? Why would you do that? When there's so many other goals that are attainable, that are just experiential based? And like, why would you spend so much time time money and effort to have one snapshot of one moment in the race dictate how you get to

Lynn: 1:51:11

feel about that? Right? And it's not going to change you in any shape? Or form? Even if you think it is? Because ultimately, you know, I, I know a lot of people who spend a lot of time at the top either, and CEOs are on number one on the podium, and all they find out is Oh, wow, there's another mountain over the hill. I'm not, I'm not done. And I'm not perfect. And we don't want to be perfect. Because if we are perfect, we are done.

Stevie: 1:51:37

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Lynn: 1:51:39

Where are you gonna go from there? You only can't go down or dad?

Stevie: 1:51:44

Absolutely. I've had some goal realizations, and some of them have come earlier than I expected. And then like, Okay, well, here, where do we go from here? Right? Like, it's, again, the destination addiction. We've talked about, like, what happens if you actually get to your destination? Then what? So I deal with that for people who actually finished the Mongol Derby or Gaucho Derby, and they've spent all these years in training for it. And I'm always like, you need to have a next goal, because there's a lot of depression that comes after these races. For for many reasons, but often times are here's a good example like, Philippe, let's say missa.

Lynn: 1:52:22

Tee, who did I just went there? I just thought of him. Go ahead. Oh, perfect. Yeah.

Stevie: 1:52:26

And he's he did that extremely long ride from, from Canada down to the tip of Argentina, and then had a period of depression afterwards. And it reminded me on a larger scale, but people experienced for the Mongol Derby or Gaucho derby. And so I'm super interested in this because I'm trying interested in helping them through it, as well. But you can't be you can't be you have to be so enamored with the process. And I often tell them, you know, a lot of people will be like, Well, I'm, I'm working out every day for the Mongol derby. I'm doing all of this stuff. And they do a lot of amazing shifts in their life. Like they meditate they work out. And, and I've had a couple of them say, I can't wait till I'm done with the Derby, because then I get to go back to being my old self. And I'm so curious about that. Because I'm like, why wouldn't you want to live every day like you're ready to go do the Mongol Derby or the Gaucho derby. So that's kind of what I found works for me, like my personal goal for quite a while now has been if someone asked me to go to do the Mongol Derby tomorrow, could I do it? And I love that my answer to that is yes. Because these are like permanent shifts. It's sort of like when people decide to dye it. And they're like, I'm gonna cut all this stuff out, and they feel amazing. And then they're like, I can't wait till I get to my goal weight. And then I'm gonna go back to my old habits. And it's like, Why? Why you feel so good. And you it's like a, it's a whole spiritual shift that you're doing either in choosing what you put in your body or how you treat your body for these goals. And I think that's the problem. They they need to be abiding, you need to continue these things. Because that's, that's what's creating the joy. It's that process of bringing a deeper awareness to your everyday life, like through working out through eating well, through doing these things. These these are catalysts to creating a better you, and I've kind of gone off on that. I obviously don't have an extremely clear answer. Because I think it's a really complex issue of goal setting and attainment. But I think that it just comes back to your focus should be the process, not the goal itself. I

Lynn: 1:54:34

have often said that pressure. This is a new thing for me in the last few years, but the pressure is a catalyst for our growth. And to welcome it as something that allows the pressure creates an agitation that now lets you change things because this is from Andrew Huberman. If you're if we're not a little bit agitated or uncomfortable, we can't change anything. And when Felipe was tight Talking about his depression after the ride. I wrote in my notes, D pression. With a dash between the D and depression, and then D pressure. In other words, when he was D pressured, he went into depression. Hmm. And I'd it was just a question I had, I wrote a question mark on it on my notes and said, I wonder if when we lose any sense of pressure, that's when we get depressed. Because, yeah, because we're stuck, we're stuck. And we actually need the pressure to rearrange our inner molecules, you know, because when I've, when I've been working with people to do deep, deep healing, I've known for sure that we can only help them like release old emotions and stuff by going into those old emotions, you just can't, the emotion is the glue that holds it in there. And if you don't go there, you can't change it, cuz your body isn't gonna release it, if you will. But pressure has a great way of getting those emotions to come up. And then, then you do something different while under pressure, that now you have a new neural pathway that says, oh, instead of always going here, whatever your old path is, here's a new path we can try. And I know in horseback riding was, it's helped me tremendously, because, you know, used to when I first got back on the horse, if a horse just tripped, like just a little stumble. The amount of drunk adrenaline going through my body, my might as well had been asked to fly off of a cliff. And now I literally just was like, melt with the horse and rate and make sure my balance is real stable when they're tripping. So that they don't have to deal with my out of balance and along with their out of balance this but I'm, like, in it with them in the moment. Because I learned to feel differently in that moment, instead of going into total fear, I go into how can I help the lens shift, this just a lens shift, but I had to practice that under pressure to do it like it took. It took me going into pressure, and then finding that space within myself while in the moment. And then once I did it a couple of times, as they say, in neuroscience, if fired twice, it's wired.

Stevie: 1:57:26

Right? Things that fire together, wire fire

Lynn: 1:57:28

together, yeah. And then I then I can do it a third time and a fourth time and so forth. So I think that this, this is the whole point of the journey. And maybe the whole point is just to shed all the stuff that's been added. So we can be our eight year old kids again.

Stevie: 1:57:45

I love I love that. I love that. That depression pressure idea. Because I on a physical sense, I really believe in like healing, just just physicalities I believe motion is lotion,

Lynn: 1:57:59

too. Yeah,

Stevie: 1:58:01

and I apply that to our horses. And now I'm thinking on an emotional and spiritual level motion. So change is motion there too. Like we have to, you know, change is a constant. So the embracing of it. And so the resistance of it is, is kind of a key key to existence. We've got to let the motion move through us emotionally, spiritually, mentally, physically, we have to embrace all motion. Wow.

Lynn: 1:58:27

Now that's another that's another mic drop idea right there motion is lotion. And not just physical motion. That emotional motion.

Stevie: 1:58:37

Well, thank you because I I've only been looking at it in a physical sense. And now it's like a mic drop in my head to you helped me think about that just came through just just thinking out loud.

Lynn: 1:58:49

That's pretty cool. Well, that's that this is going to be such an interesting thing to go back and listen to for me, because there were so many mic drop moments in this conversation. While so I have a question. As we wrap up, we've been going at this for almost two hours, hard to believe. But I always like to wrap by asking my my guest, what would you want the audience to know? What would you want people to be considering? Or what would you ask of them? You know, maybe a word of advice, just something sort of as a way to, like leave them with something to sit with float within their system. Maybe try out? Do you have any thing in mind that you would want people to know now that you haven't shared a lot of wisdom already.

Stevie: 1:59:37

Man, I guess just in I had an amazing experience this last weekend of doing a more beginner style endurance boot camp. And it was so incredible to see like small changes in people's lives, create the biggest things and going back To the slides that I shared, there's a slide I had with John Krasinski from the office. And he's pointing to two blackboards and it says people often talk in movies, like I'm going to paraphrase this, but people often talk in movies about how changing one small thing in the past, like in a time machine going forward, I'm obviously messing this up a lot, because it's much more eloquently put. And in fact, I'm just gonna pull up the slide on my phone, because I have it here somewhere. Because this is, I kind of want to say, to everybody that you can, don't go thinking, Oh, my gosh, you know, Stevie does 100 mile races on horses, that's incredible. Like I, I thought, doing five miles a long time ago was really, really hard. And same with running, that's even better. I really enjoy riding, but running is really hard for me. So I every even every day, so my husband and I go and run two miles almost every day around our field and come back. And there are days when that two miles is horrendously difficult. It's not it's not easy. It the things that I'm doing don't necessarily become easier for me, at least in running. Of course, riding it does become easier. So like everything depends, but basically, I'm saying to you that the smallest steps are more important than not making the step at all. And also not having judgment about that step. Like, I just coached a couple of people to doing some of their first endurance rides. And I said, why does it matter? If you decide at five miles, your horse isn't having fun, and you just turn around and walk back and quit? Why does that matter? Who cares?

Lynn: 2:01:40

No one did five miles. Yeah. And you did your five miles. So claimed that? Yeah.

Stevie: 2:01:44

And you did what was right for the horse, like we actually had that experience of I had a junior rider taking actually Captain America on his first endurance ride, and he has a lot of anxiety around racing from his past and, and we thought we could he was fit enough to do the 25 mile ride that we had signed them up for, but physically fit enough emotionally. No, we didn't know that we we thought, you know, let's something called productive struggle in in training, where instead of causing trauma by putting an adversity in front of somebody, if they have the right tools, they will struggle but being productive. So it's called a productive struggle, struggle. And we didn't know we didn't know showing up to this race if we were going to cause trauma or caused the productive struggle. But we, I mean, we knew we weren't going to cause trauma because we were going to quit if that was the direction it was going. And in fact, that's what was happening. He was kind of having a meltdown. We had a couple good miles of trotting, we got about five miles out. And it was just a lot for him. And I looked at my junior rider who, who was riding him and had been working with him. And she was like, I don't want to do this. This isn't fun for him. I'm like, exactly. So we turned around and we mosey down back, someone else had fallen off their horse we got we caught their horse on the way back out them on their horse kind of had a great time, joking, laughing being relaxed, and we made sure those horses were walking on a loose rein back to camp. Just Just chill and relax. And I had like one of the most fun experiences of an endurance ride. And we only wrote a tiny little portion of it. And we came back into camp and you know, at the vet, actually, it was like, why are you not making this horse do it, he's heart rates 39, he's totally fine. Like, you should go make him do this, you know, kind of an old school dominance thought. And I had to deal with judgment in that moment. But I was I was, I knew that we were doing the right thing. And because I knew in my heart that it was the right thing. I just brushed it often I noticed. I was also able to see it from her perspective and kind of be okay with her judgment and let it go. And that whole entire experience was amazing. And I later posted the story online, and everyone was like, Oh, this is incredible. What an incredible student, like the girl that had chosen to come back and not be worried about winning or doing well or whatever. And so I'm just retelling the story. Because honestly, again, nobody cares about how how you do. And this is I tell Gaucho Derby and MongoDB. Writers this, no one cares about how you do. They only care about how you feel about how you do. So go out take the tiniest step, it's better than not trying to do something at all. And I have I'm trying to talk and look through my phone for the slide that I have, like, Oh, I know where it is. I'm just going to say this last little bit and be done because I kind of rambled through what I'm trying to say here. But I'm, I'm just saying that you should go out and try things. And don't worry about the outcome. Just be so proud of yourself for even being the kind of person who wants to do something who wants to make a change, and this is this is the slide. So on the first one he's pointing when people travel to the past, they worry about radically changing the present by doing something small And then the next slide says few people think that they can radically change the future by doing something small in the present. So it's like that, you know, that time travel thing where it's like, Oh, if you knock a pencil off the desk, then you come back to the present day and your parents are different. And it's like, it really is like the smallest pebble creates waves in the ocean, you know, like, you can, you can do the smallest things that are going to make a massive difference. And often, that's just correlating to a lens shift to like, the type of person that stays on the couch and stays in their warm, safe home, versus the person that's brave enough to step up, put on some running shoes and do a half mile run and come back home. Those are two radically different versions of yourself. And we're changing all the time. So like, which one do you want to be today? Like, can you go do a half mile and maybe when you reach that half mile mark, you're like, this isn't so bad. I'll go to a full mile, like you might really impress yourself. That was a really long answer.

Lynn: 2:06:03

No, that is really life changing answers what that is, I think about every single thing I do that looks like a great accomplishment right now is because I took one tiny baby step.

Stevie: 2:06:15

Absolutely. Yeah.

Lynn: 2:06:18

And we could talk a whole nother two hours on that. But go there. We might have to do a part two, though. Because I don't feel like I'm even close to done with

Stevie: 2:06:28

oh my gosh, this has been so much fun. When I thought my head was I was like, I'm not going to I don't know if I'm going to be able to have this conversation today thinking about Captain but I feel. I feel like this has been so fun, and so easy to chat with you. Oh,

Lynn: 2:06:41

beautiful. Well, I'm gonna wrap this up, stay on. I'm gonna stop the recording here shortly. And we'll we'll talk afterwards. But I am saying this for everybody to hear but stay on. But let me just wrap up by saying to everybody, as you listen to this podcast, if you loved it, please share it with your friends. Other colleagues let people know the word because there's there was a lot of good stuff dropped here today. As you as always, if you subscribe and rate it, it helps me get more of the word out. And if you want more of this kind of stuff, there's more podcasts out there like this. And you can always find them through the coaching digest which you can subscribe to Atlin karns.com. We will see you on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.