#71 Jane Pike: Embracing Discomfort and Letting Go of Control
My guest for this episode is Jane Pike. I first heard Jane’s name in context of the World Equestrian Games in 2018. She was the mindset coach for Warwick and Robyn Schiller, who competed in reining, and scored their best scores during an extremely high-pressure event. Prior to those games, I had never heard of reining; however, it was the discipline that captivated me then and has ever since. Back to Jane. I was very intrigued by Jane’s approach to mindset training. Not only does she align with my experience of what really works, she aligns very much with the natural world. I met her in 2022 at the Journey On Podcast summit, and also got to spend time with her on at the 2023 event as well. I was thrilled when she agreed to come on this podcast.
This conversation flew by for both of us. We started and were immediately in the flow, speaking about topics like what to do with discomfort, the distinction between the action of fear and the emotion of fear, the way our mind can get in loops like Groundhog Day, and so much more. There were many quotable moments in this conversation. One of my favorite’s was this: Our role is not to police other people’s passions.
Here's what Jane has to say about herself:
Jane Pike is a writer, poet, and horsewoman from the South Island of New Zealand. In the horse world, her work focuses on practices and understandings that increase vitality for both humans and horses, incorporating nervous system awareness to both mindset and movement. The methods she teaches explore physical and emotional patterns at their most foundational level- the brain and the nervous system- with the aim of creating adaptability and responsiveness, both in and out of the saddle. Jane has featured and written for various magazines around the world and is a sought after international clinician and trainer through her business Confident Rider.
Jane’s passions and expertise also extend to how we can best live full and creative lives, and develop the tenacity and courage to do so. Her deep appreciation for writing and the arts has also seen her skip down the garden path of how it is we can all find and allow for our own unique creative expression, sharing her own writing and teaching retreats and workshops that focus on giving ourselves permission to and making the time for following the things that we love.
Intro:
Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed Podcast. I'm Lynn Karns. Your host. My guest for this episode is Jane pike. I first heard Jane's name in context of the World Equestrian Games in 2018, which was just down the road for me. Jane was the mindset coach for Warwick and Robert Shiller, who competed in writing, and they scored their best scores during an extremely high pressure advanced. Prior to those games I had never heard of writing. However, it was the discipline that captivated me then and has ever since. Back to Jay, I was intrigued by Jane's approach to mindset training. Needless to say, given the results, not only does she align with my experience of what really works, she aligns very much with the natural world. I met her in 2022 at the journey on podcasts on it, and also got to spend time with her at the 2023 event as well. I was thrilled when she agreed to come on this podcast, this conversation flew by for both of us. We started and we're immediately in the flow speaking about topics like what to do with discomfort, the distinction between the action of fear and the emotion of fear, the way our mind can get in loops like Groundhog Day, and so much more. Also, there were many quotable moments in this conversation. One of my favorites was this, she said, our role is not to police other people's passions. Think about that for a minute. Here's what Jane has to say about herself. Jane Pike is a writer, poet and horse woman from the South Island of New Zealand. In the horse world. Her work focuses on practices and understandings that increased vitality for both humans and horses incorporating nervous system awareness to both mindset and movement. The methods she teaches explore physical and emotional patterns at their most foundational level, the brain and the nervous system, with the aim of creating adaptability and responsiveness both in and out of the saddle. Jane has featured and written for various magazines around the world and is a sought after international clinician and trainer. Through her business confident writer. Jane's passions and expertise also extend to how we can best live full and creative lives and develop the tenacity and courage to do so. Her deep appreciation for writing in the arts has also seen her skip down the garden path of how it is we can all find and allow for our own unique creative expression, sharing her own writing and teaching retreats workshops that give focus on ourselves, giving ourselves permission to and making time for following the things we love. You can find Jane at the confident confident writer dot online and Jane pipe.substack.com. All the rest of the links to her socials and stuff are in the show notes. And I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Jane Pak because I know I did. Jane Pike, welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast.
Jane:
Thank you so much for having me healing. I'm so excited. I'm all buzzing in my chair,
Lynn:
too. And it's funny because I just said creative spirits unleashed. And as I'm sitting here thinking about, we've known each other for now, a little over a year, I think you are one of those people I can truly say as a creative spirit, living a life unleashed.
Jane:
Thank you, that's such a lovely compliment. And
Lynn:
so, you know, clearly we don't I don't think we arrive on this planet, necessarily. Maybe we arrive on this planet unleashed, and then we get shut down. And then our I think our joy, our work is to unshot ourselves down, if you will to free ourselves again. And that's a theme I've seen in our conversations. And when I read your writings, what do you say about your your journey to sort of take yourself back to that spirit that came on this planet to experience this round?
Jane:
Oh my goodness, I think it's a constant process of daily descent. Against conditioning and against what I might have considered to be an intrinsic part of myself, but I just realized there imprinted patterns of people pleasing and wanting to be like a good girl and wanting to be a good person and not wanting to let people down and disappoint people. And when I think back to my childhood and process sort of through the education system, I was a really excellent student. I really We like to get things right. And I could work really hard. And I could think of my way through things. And I had a really easy time with applying myself to a task and kind of seeing it through. And I did really well at school, because I got into the practice of recognizing, you could predict essentially what someone was going to ask in an exam or in a test. And if you just predicted with a relatively high degree of certainty, and just study that thing, you could come out with a pretty good outcome. And so if I reverse back beyond that, I know that I was always really creative, I had tons of little like books that I would write about stories that would have finished and I was always inviting my family or things into my bedroom for my like art gallery exhibition, where I'd forced them to buy, like the pictures that I'd stuck up on the pinboard. And that slowly sort of like dissolved through school with that idea of like having to produce outcomes and having to get things right. And so the process into adulthood, and I was talking about this with my husband, recently is like the undoing of that seems to occur sort of in your 40s. You know, you like you start to actually like unpick all the things that you've you've you've carried along the way that tell you, you have to be a certain way or have to perform a certain way or do a certain thing. And that can take a while to unravel. I don't know if that's what you meant by the question. But that's what popped into my head. Oh,
Lynn:
that no, that's exactly because I guess I identify it in my own. My own unraveling. And and when you said descent? You know, it is, I don't know. So say more about what descent is because I haven't experienced it. But I think that's the operative word of what you just described. Yeah.
Jane:
So I actually have a really good example of it in real time yesterday, where my brain like everyone else's gets excited, caught up in things sometimes that appear to matter greatly, but actually don't really matter at all. And so I'm the breadwinner of my family, I have my own business. And all of that comes with a certain degree of pressure, you know, to like, keep producing to keep like, making money and to keep doing the things which actually, in some ways don't come very naturally to me, because I just do what I love. And then it just so happens that that is a business. And I'm super fortunate for that. But yesterday when I woke up, I was overtired, like my children were they'd had late nights over the course of the week one because my son's doing a diving course. And the other for no reason that he just decided he doesn't want to go to sleep without his brother being. And so I was having late nights and early mornings. And yesterday, it really caught up with me where I woke up early to write and I just found myself in a fluster, like I was worried about things I, I got kind of tight around certain thoughts that I had to do this and had to do that. And I thought to myself, you know, the thing that I really crave is space, like, I just want to go and sit on the log in the paddock. And I just want to go and do the things that I write about. Because I don't want to be fraudulent in those claims. Like those are the things that are important to me to be in nature and to to just have time and space, which is perhaps one of our most, the most precious commodity perhaps that we have these days. And as I say this, I recognize I'm also in a huge position of privilege to be able to take the space. But yesterday I did something which I was going to say is counter intuitive, but it's actually not counter intuitive. It's counter conditional. And this is what I'm talking about with with, with dissent, and like daily acts of it, which is like, I'm just not going to subscribe to these thoughts anymore. I refuse to get caught up in the anxiety of, of money and all of these other things. And so I'm just going to leave my computer and I'm going to go outside, despite having all the many things to do and people to answer and things to create. And I just walked, I'm revealing my inner hippie walked barefoot around the farm. And then it was a beautiful day here. So I rode my horses in the morning. And then I went to the beach with my kids in the afternoon and did literally nothing which is work related, which is not my usual I usually have very full days. But it just was a reset button to remind me of what actually matters and where true creative thought and innovation and help on every level comes from which is not from a place of overthinking and pressure and concern. And I left my phone at home the whole day in my bedroom, which was another thing that like bleeds into my time and kind of captures thoughts that don't need to be captured. It's sort of like a clutter creates clutter in my mind. So that's what I mean by descent It's like a constant. A constant, recommitment to what you truly understand to be important and acting in alignment with that even when everything else in your head is screaming at you to do the opposite.
Lynn:
That's, that's a huge one, because you're not alone. I think I struggle myself with, it's still the leftover of people pleasing and trying to be the good girl and sort of follow the rules, the rules led me to good things. Making money is a good thing. And also, you know, you have a lot more followers than I do. But we, I feel this, like, when I'm speaking about things, I feel a little bit of pressure to put something important in front of people who are following what I'm writing about. Yeah, yeah, I had, and then there, but there's this, there's this other side of me that it is a little bit like a descent, it's almost like an oscillation. It's like, I go into the room of the old rules, and then I can look at them and go, yeah, they're there I am, again, let me step away from that room go into the room of my tools. And, you know, one of the best tools ever is walking barefoot in nature. Like, yeah, it's so grounding, a much better wider ground than almost anything else you can do.
Jane:
Yeah, and it's even, like, it's not even using nature, it's just recognizing we are that, you know, like, this, I'm walking in amongst it, because I am this, I'm not using it as another thing to kind of, like, get something back from like, and that's what I recognized as a difference as well, just in my mindset, like, I'm not here to like, rejuvenate, to return me to my office to be better. I'm here, it's kind of a conversation. And that's, that's the whole point. Like, it's, um, that's like, what do I give back to that when I go out? Rather than what do I take from it has been a really big shift for me that I've been playing with lately. Yeah,
Lynn:
that's a big one that we are that and you wrote a post that I can't, I may have to read it several more times, because it resonated so deeply about living in the wild, and women who want to camp in the wild. I've done a fair bit of that slept outside, no tip by myself, you know, on a given night, and the fact that we that there's nothing wrong with being concerned about doing that, yeah, yeah,
Jane:
we've just got ourselves into a situation, I believe, of feeling like we're entitled to a degree of comfort that the rest of the universe does not experience. And within that understanding and expectation, we then layer upon a degree layer upon normal experience, like a normal amount of anxiety, a normal amount of concern, a lot, a normal amount of awareness, we think that's something to be fixed, or something that's wrong, or something that indicates we shouldn't do that thing again, you know, like I was talking about camping in the wild, like you just mentioned, and my experience of that is anything but restful, you know, and if I can't like my have a very vivid imagination, and so it's a you know, but when you look at how, just very generally speaking, the wild lives, it is not restful, a lot of the time it is alert, and like constantly aware of like, am I going to be eaten and constantly making adjustments, and we are within that animal body. And I think a lot of what I experienced in my work is people that have a complete intolerance to any type of sensation or discomfort, or lack of what they would consider to be neutrality in their body. And that is a huge issue. Like that is a huge issue. And we've kind of comforted ourselves into this place of just, I don't know, I don't even know what the word is for it. But it's not a valid design, you know, it's actually a benchmark we're just never going to live up to, because that's just not realistic. And so to even say, like, there's a sort of a normal amount of anxiety, and there's a normal amount of fear. And there's a normal amount of concern that a person that's actively living in the world, and actively being in the world in a way that isn't continually comfortable is going to experience and that doesn't mean that something's wrong. It just is, is it is.
Lynn:
I actually had this conversation a couple of months ago with a client who didn't it took me a while to recognize I and I just looked at him and I said, Oh, you are asking me to make the discomfort go away. And he goes exactly. He says, I don't want to feel it. And I said, I can't do that. I can't do that. I mean, you can try to numb it out. You can take drugs or something like that or just not move. Like you don't do anything. But he has, you know, adult children so of course he's going to have a camera, even if he doesn't do anything for children out in the world right luck. Sure. But But I said, I said we are supposed to feel. Yeah, I said, but our feelings have been hijacked by our conditioning. And we've been told there's something wrong with it. It's okay. But I said, I can't help you reframe it. I can't get rid of it. But I can help you reframe it. And it was just the look on his face. Because it was almost a betrayal. And then there was hope. Yeah, so he had a resolution
Jane:
raishin. Right. It's like a paradoxical liberation. Yes. Yeah.
Lynn:
Because we're supposed to be swinging. Like if you're Yeah, exactly. If I'm sleeping outside. And what happened with me, I was in Sedona, Arizona, something came within 10 to 15 feet of my campsite. I don't know what it was, it was probably a raccoon. But when it's dark, and you don't have a tent, and you don't have anything else to protect yourself with, it's a friggin Cougar, or a bear, you know, or maybe even something worse, that hadn't been invented yet. Because it's the thing that exists in the night that never, nobody ever sees. But you know, the story is my mind was making up while it was there, and it was there for hours. Yeah. And it's sort of like we commune and we didn't, and I, I sat with it. And then eventually, whatever it was left, and eventually I slept. But it was a long night with who Yeah, yeah, totally. Mouse, for all I know. But I don't think so I don't think I think a mouse wouldn't have made that much noise.
Jane:
It's funny, isn't it? I think that recognizing something is going to be hard or maybe hard is a huge act of compassion to yourself, because you're like, well, this what point did I convince myself this was going to be easy. And the idea of like, Lin, feeling as insane in the world, as I do is very comforting. Because I'm like, oh, a lot of people experiences, right. And that's also why we avoid it. Because so much of our comfort, quote unquote, is about distraction from discomfort, like, we can jump on our phone, or I can like, quickly, you know, turn on the TV, if I feel something that is uncomfortable and sort of distract myself away from it. And when you're in the wild in that, in that really true sense. You don't have those options. And so all of the gadgets are unavailable to you. And you really are left with your own true sense, I guess. And it's, there was a really beautiful quote from John O'Donoghue that I shared in another piece of writing that I can't remember the exact quote, but he's, he said, like nighttime is the womb, basically, where you're, the dark removes all of their containers of aesthetic that you're judged on during the day. And what's left is like the true nature of self. And as kind of deep as it sounds, but I think we're kind of here for these conversations on your podcast anyway. But I thought about that idea of a womb. And you know, we use it poetically as this idea of like, safety and comfort and warmth, but actually like, growth and pregnancy and birth, and all those things are incredibly torn. You know, they're not like actually, like, really peaceful cocoons. Like, that's not my experience anyway. And so it was interesting to think about that, yeah, to think about what we've ascribed to certain experiences and what we avoid as a result to our detriment. Because
Lynn:
we're supposed to not feel that way. And, you know, if you, if you don't like the way you feel we have something to hand you. It can be a phone, it could be the TV, it could be in a pill in a bottle. But yeah, you know, we've turned our senses are very instinct, that should be our best friend. We've turned it into a two before against ourselves. Yeah, yeah.
Jane:
And of course, like you and I know, there is a line between what delineate something that really is need need some tools to help, you know, work around and just as normal level of like, being in life, like we talked about, like vitality, a body that's talking to the brain all day long, and experience of a situation that you're not used to or not familiar with, like, that's gonna be inherently uncomfortable. So, yeah, it's so it's so fascinating to me. And it's been, like I said, a point of liberation to be able to recognize when is when is this actually like, when is this experience attached to a desire that I really want to follow through on, but what's stopping me is the idea of needing to control the discomfort that I know that I'm likely to experience when I go through that. And so if that if I can kind of play with that equation, then I'm like, Okay, I gotta do the thing. I can tell I've got to do the thing.
Lynn:
It's funny about the control because I have, since I was a little girl, I would get motion sick. And it's just been in the last two or three years that I've come to recognize that I think some of it was my desire to control the discomfort of the rocking car, or the rocking boat, and kind of going against the movement if you will. Mm. Huh. And at this stage of work, I think this is my pressure journey of learning to sort of not resist the pressure. But to go with it a little bit more. I've learned to also go with the rocking car and go with the rocking boat. And it's a really different way to move. But I haven't been getting sick to my stomach in certain circumstances that I was before. Yeah, because
Unknown:
I can try to control yourself. But again, yeah,
Lynn:
yeah. Try because I put trying to control it and went with it. And it's just, it's like, why didn't somebody tell me that when I was five years old, I could have saved my parents a lot of car cleanups.
Jane:
of less Yeah, I know. It's like a miracle. But life, isn't it?
Lynn:
Yeah. So when you think about, like, control and fear and things like that, how do you help people? Or how do you have people think about those things in a context that helps them help themselves, if you will? Because I've had a coach tell me to have no fear. And I just have decided fears in a central New nutrient of life. I think that that was bullshit idea to say that you're not supposed to have fear really unrealistic? Yeah. I mean, I just don't know how you can do that. No, I don't, I think I need it to stay alive. Like in the Air Force, there's a thing called notified, and then wash you out if you have it. And it's a watch for pilots to have an aphid, which has no apparent fear of death. And so if you have no no fear of death, and you're gonna crash the plane into the ground and take your instructor with you. Yeah.
Jane:
Yeah. Like it's yes. So, so to have a healthy amount of aphid
Lynn:
as you would any, any like pilot or anybody you turned your hands over to, but but there's, there's like, this is back on air. You know, I like the term dancing the tightrope, the idea of, you know, as I quoted you, in my speech, there's no such thing as balance, oh, my balancing, which I totally was borrowing your language, but it's like, how do you have somebody find their way around these things that are going to come up?
Jane:
Yeah, well, I think there's, it's useful to make a distinction between the action of fear and the emotion of fear. And often those two things are really confused. So the action of fear is what a wild animal experiences when the Impaler is taken down by the lion, for example. And they go through the nervous system responses of maybe initially it's flight, so they're like really in the run. And then the lion catches them. And they go into freeze that kind of catatonic state. And then they go into collapse, where it looks apparently, like they're dead. And all of those choices aren't cognitive, it's part of their autonomic functioning, that's taking them into that experience of collapse. And that's a very useful, necessary unwanted part of our nervous system function. Animals, apart from the ones that are domesticated and trained out of those adaptable, instinctive ways, don't really experience the emotion of fear, that's very much a human experience where we don't actually have to be in the presence of an action that's going to cause us concern for us to feel afraid of it. And we have a story attached to it that separate from the reality of the present moment. So I could be sitting here talking to you, and maybe I have to do something later, which is concerning. And so I will experience fear, that's not meeting the reality of my current position. It's like a, it's a conscious, thought based process. And so those two things are very important to distinguish in my work, because my, a lot of what I do with riders is really creating a situation where their nervous system is adaptable to the point where it's accurately responding to situations that they find themselves in, and where a lot of us aren't accurately responding at the moment, we're kind of stuck in different dials and channels. And so then, when it comes to the action of fear, the most common plate, I mean, there are lots of different ways that people respond, depending on their individual sort of propensities and stories, that they're the sort of process that I define that is surprisingly simple, in theory, perhaps not so simple in action, is to just decide what you're going to do like what well, what's the decision that you're going to make here? And what action are you going to take based off the back of that? And what do you observe off the back of that action? So it's like decision action observation. It's like this constant process and the decision is interesting. Like I say to a lot of people I work with, I don't let myself stay too long in overthinking. I don't let myself dwell too long because there are no my brain really can't make sense of all of these thoughts without there being some kind of consequence on the other side, meaning that I never actually going to know before I make a choice on one of those options and like do do the choice. And then I know was that right or wrong? Should I adjust? Or should I go differently? And where a lot of us have trouble with fear, I think is, say, for instance, I'm about to ride my young horse, and perhaps my instructors, they're like, let's just make up a hypothetical situation. And I'm afraid about that. And that fear could be a valid fear, like, perhaps I feel like something might happen that I can't control or something like that, like all of these kind of brain worms that we have in our head. And making a decision doesn't mean that I pushed through what my brain is presenting me with. But it might mean, I have to push through some of my patterns, which is, oh, what is my instructor gonna think if I say, I don't want to get on right now? Or like, what if I get off when I get on? And what are they going to think about that. And all of these things are the things that actually are the hard things, it's not so much the fear, it's making a decision that is truly aligned with the action you want to take next. And that might sit differently to the action you feel like you should take next. And they're kind of two different things. So, you know, in that situation, it might be that I choose to do a little more groundwork, or I choose to walk around and use some of my techniques just in hand. And then I get on like, it's, um, you know, it's about spaces and, and ideas of how I could approach things differently. That obviously are informed by lots of things that have happening in the background. But does that make sense what I'm saying, it's like, my
Lynn:
brain does the very thing. And it's that stupid, like, where I went, when you were talking about the fear, emotion versus action is the mismatch. So you don't actually drive down the road and see deer or antelope running away from nothing, when they run when there's something. But a lot of times in our heads, we're running away when there's nothing that's actually there, because it doesn't match. It's that we're responding to our own story, and responding to our own pattern. Because we can imagine the thing and they're not doing that, like our hiring rounds can imagine. Absolutely,
Unknown:
yeah.
Lynn:
Yeah, honestly, I can work myself into quite a tizzy, right? This minute if I choose to, right?
Jane:
Oh, I'm excellent at this. I mean, the reason I'm teaching this is because I just want to I need my own self help guide. Basically. It's I have ultimate empathy. I am not teaching from the pulpit, that it's, you know, often we're more committed to the story than we are to the reality. And the other thing is that, what I discover for myself and with people that I work with, when you like, you know, there's that old phrase, the body doesn't lie. And the thing about the structure of the body is it will always reflect the reality of where your nervous system is sitting. But say, for instance, you know, we have a body that's constantly experiencing anxiety, or some sort of something that we might label as dysfunctional in some way. But the mind keeps saying, No, it's fine. The situation's fine, you know, my horse isn't there. So my relationship isn't there. So my work isn't really that bad, it should be fine. And we have created this disconnect between body and mind where the body is revealing the truth. It's like, it's not okay. It's not okay. It's not okay. It's not okay. And it takes a while for the brain to let go of the story and to say, ah, actually, something might need to change here. Like, maybe this person I'm with isn't good for me. And I just haven't wanted to admit that because that's hard. And what do I do on the other side of that, or maybe I am a little over hoarse at the moment, and I need some help. And I kind of don't know where to go with that. So I've just been ignoring that fact for a while, but progressively getting us into a sticky situation. And so the meaning of the reality of the moment sounds so obvious, but it's so challenging for so many of us, because it means we have to make active choices that advocate for ourselves and advocate for our horses. And sometimes that's disappointing to the circles that we're in, you know, we have to let go of ideas that we've been trained into, or practices we've been committed to for a really long time. And that's hard. Like, it's not easy. Yeah. So there are so many layers to the conversation, I guess. There
Lynn:
are a lot of layers to that conversation. Because, you know, I tend to go on the other side, where it's like, I'm overreacting, you kind of described under-reacting, right? Yeah, things are really bad. You're getting all the signals and you're just choosing to ignore versus overreacting, which is, thanks are not that bad, but you're acting like this is like a major thing. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Like, back to that mismatch. How do we line up this amazing system that was given to us at birth, our nervous system to respond to what's happening in front of us and not to sort of the programming that was put on us?
Jane:
Yeah, well, the I mean, the essence of it. I'm laughing to myself, because I'm thinking how complicated to make this? And how simple can I make it?
Lynn:
Well, yes, that's a time for carp, we have time for depth and complication. I love this.
Jane:
I think that the one of the things that is sort of sad, the sad reality is that, you know, the way that humans are living now is a very small portion of the way that we have lived in a design to live, I think I read a statistic that I cannot create it, but it's something like modern society. As far as you know, the timeline of human evolution has been around for sort of point zero 3% of the time we've been here, you know, where our system if we think of ourselves as systems is not designed for this way of living, we are designed to be in a hunter gatherer context, like constantly in the environment. And so that has created not in ways that are not necessarily our fault. But I still, it's still our responsibility to find our way out of an inherent level of nervous system dysfunction. And so what we have to pay attention to is ways to, to look after ourselves, you know, in that deepest sense, and the ways that I've found that I teach, and I'm not suggesting these are the only ways by any stretch, it's just what I'm involved in, is really about movement and activating the sensory system. And when you approach things from that level, and you start to simultaneously reconcile some of the, like behavioral tendencies and survival patterns and, and sort of attachments that we have to different ways of being control being hugely one of them. Those two things kind of simmer together to create a different way of being in the world. What was the original question?
Lynn:
So we were all talking about the living in two worlds, like really the way we're living? Yeah, well, you know, people's world and nature's world is the way I often talk about it. Yeah,
Jane:
yeah. So if I think of it in really basic terms, what my nervous system requires is a constant stream of sensory information. So sensory information comes into my brain. And it's that sensory information that a little part of my brain called the reticular activating system uses to answer the question, Am I safe? And the answer is, yes, no, or maybe. So yes, is and we all have heard the terms parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system, your sympathetic nervous system is just your fight or flight nervous system for anyone out there that hasn't heard of that before. The parasympathetic is like optimal mode of functioning in the day to day. And so the response that's sent out by the brain in answer to that question is either is always a movement response. So when we're talking about the sympathetic or parasympathetic nervous system, that is the motor system, it's a movement system. And so you can send out a parasympathetic response, sympathetic response? Or if the answer is maybe, then the brain operates on like adjusting case policy. So just in case Lynn's not okay, we're gonna put her into sympathetic anyway, because we want to make sure that we don't get stuck in a corner. And so why this is relevant to the conversation is that we're designed to be really adaptable. So the survival nervous system is only meant to be activated when we're under physiological threat. And for most of us, it's activated when we get an email or when we think about something that we don't want to do like it, we've gone into the sort of misfiring of what the sympathetic nervous system is designed to do. And as a part of that function as a part of our fight flight function. If you think of our sensory system, like a volume knob, when we're in parasympathetic, the sensory volume is on full blast. So we're getting a lot of sensory information, as we go down the sympathetic chain. And we think about sympathetic as fight, flight, freeze and collapse, the sensory information gets turned down. And the reason for that is adaptive. So if the example I use it, if you were to reach through the screen and punch me, my sensory input immediately decreases, because I, it's not useful for me to feel everything in that moment and be able to defend myself, I would most likely be overcome if I could feel all of the fields. And it wouldn't be useful to me being able to defend myself. And all of us have had this experience with the presence of cortisol and adrenaline and sensory input turned down. You think, oh, in the moment, I didn't, how did I not feel that my leg was broken? Or how did I walk that far? Or how did I do that thing? And the reason you did that thing was because your nervous system is benevolent and is trying to look after you or is looking after you. And it's only after you've come out of that, that you're like, Oh, I'm so sore. Like I don't really agree, but like what was that you know? So that's relevant because If we're not coming if we're living in our survival nervous system more often than not, so say over 50% of my day, I'm operating out of my survival nervous system, sensory information is turned way down. If sensory information is what my brain uses to accurately place me in my environment, now it doesn't have that information, it has to make guesses. And so it guesses based on our past experience, it sort of uses the historical database if you like, rather than real time information. And this is where you see people in these Groundhog Day loops, their body is literally not uploading data that tells them what's accurate, what's going on right now. And so they're in the story, they're in the story. And we've all had experiences where you're talking to a friend, and they're just not getting what you're saying, you're like, that is not the reality and they're just on this loop and you just can't talk them out of it. And they just literally aren't getting it like that that information is not coming in. And so that is if we can re innovate the sensory system. What that does is gives the brain in information about our actually changing our office right now. She's not she's not, you know, paragliding anymore, or that's not relevant to this situation. And, and so it's um, I've never paragliding I don't know why I just use that example. Paragliding. Anyway, that's funny, I'm afraid. I'm so sorry. So it's about recognizing that a lot of what we're experiencing fear wise and loop wise, is being stuck on a maladaptive channel that has resulted from this kind of physiological dysfunction. That that has alongside of it, behavioral and emotional ramifications as well.
Lynn:
So something you said in there, I don't know that I've ever really, completely recognize that, that the sympathetic nervous system turns down the inputs, the volume, yeah. And so now, there's another paradox there, because if I don't like the inputs, because they make me feel scared, I'm actually going to keep trying to turn it down. Yeah, when I when I when I actually need to turn it off, so that I can match. So isn't it? Isn't that interesting
Jane:
tales back to that initial conversation we had around discomfort, then where is it now I've got myself to a place where the sensory information is so turned down, which is in a sort of collapse state, which I would say is the majority, the majority of the modern western world is in that place. dominantly in a collapsed state, there is very little sensory input being given at that moment in time, because essentially, the brain is saying to the body, don't move we're like in hibernation mode, like screw with the with the nuts, you know, like, let's stick around for as long as we can. It leads to like metabolic issues, lack of energy, depression, like all of these types of experiences. But the from a sensory perspective and a sensation perspective, which is kind of the physical language of emotion. We're not feeling anything, we're neutral kind of dead ground, if you like. And it's not very nice way of describing it, but neutral ground. And so just like bringing your horse out of shutdown, when you start to bring a human out of shutdown, you can only do it at the pace that they're able to handle feeling, you know, that they're able to handle sensation, and the renegotiation is not so much the physical part, it's the emotional part of saying, this is normal, you're okay, this is normal, you do not have to equate feeling within the body with danger, which is what we're so many of us have done. And that relates back to our experience of women, you know, I say women in the wild, because that's the conversation that I'm having, but like, this is normal. This is like, you know, to be hijacked by yourself all the time is not normal, we have to maintain the ability to act within the experience. That's the that's the strength of it. And that's the skill of it. Absolutely. But, you know, most of us are living in a place and schooled still into a place where, you know, your instructor at some point said to you, you know, you have to be fearless or the absence of fear is the goal. And, or we just so many people's experience and instruction. You know, even meditation, in some ways has disabled our ability to translate what we understand to be a peaceful feeling into energetic action. We can only feel feel away that's good when we're sitting still. And actually, that's not a living thing, either. You know, like, it's like, no, yeah, so we have all of these complicated and mismatched opinions and thoughts and modalities and I mean, it's really confusing the and I get why people are so confused. And it's, you know, the, what I struggle with, is that my process I Hello is by far it's not a quick fix. And it requires investment. And it's not necessarily comfortable. And it's not necessarily going to make you feel great in the beginning because, you know, if you're coming out of a state of contraction, which is essentially what sympathetic is, that's, you know, if you pull something apart that's been stuck together for a really long time, on a physical level, there's consequences to in that transition. And people don't love that. And, you know, it's really I find myself I don't want to say fighting against because I'm not fighting against anything. But it's really easy to make someone feel good on it for a temporary period of time. And, you know, you can tell stories and cajole people and make them feel comfortable and let them hear what they want to hear. But the reality is that feeling good is different to having a body that's vital and, and healthy, like a vital body is one that's in the world. And like we've been discussing, it's not always roses. So it's, it's, it's a interesting process. Yeah. Yeah. It's
Lynn:
much more like a roller coaster. Yeah, it's the ups and downs. And, you know, as we are recording this, our mutual friends work Schiller and Kansas, Carradine and other folks that I don't know, but both of those guys have been on my podcast. I put guys with Kansas as a guy and that term, but they're out on the gas show Derby right now, living this wildlife, we're just talking about have you been following along at all?
Jane:
A little bit. I've been deliberately just giving myself a social media detox, so it just happened to do that. But it's um, yeah, it's it's pretty, pretty feisty out there, isn't it? Well, I
Lynn:
I'll tell you what, what did hit me yesterday, besides the fact that I got this awareness that I'm a really good stalker. I was like putting pieces together. You know, there's a live route map and you know, all that kind of stuff still,
Jane:
in that lane, there's,
Lynn:
yeah, thank you very much. Putting things together. But then I got the idea to look at the terrain, because you know, a flat map, which is just growing. Then I got on Google Maps and put the layer on that said, let me show you something like the topographic.
Jane:
Yeah,
Lynn:
that's when I went you know, because they were going from point that check 3012 to 13. And it looks like a nice little walk along the lake. And then you bring up the layers and its mountains, and barely like one little road and I'm like, I there's probably only one way they're gonna get those horses from here to there. You know, because for those listening that haven't heard of the, the Gaucho Derby, it's the world's toughest endurance race, which means seven days out in the wild, carrying everything you need on your back from not point A to point B, but like through something like 18 vet checks across 500 kilometers, or more, maybe 1000 kilometers, it might be under estimating how long it is, it's not an exact thing, ya know. And, and I'm thinking about that they're carrying their tent, their sleeping bag, their food, everything the horse is going to need as well, you know. And then they have to
Jane:
be like 20 bales of hay supplement, because
Lynn:
they actually have to get the horses to a place where they can eat as well. They have to have water for the horses. And oh, by the way, they have to sleep, making sure they don't lose their horse. Yeah, right, that they have to go to sleep not not only worried about whatever might come and get them, but that their way in and out of this place. The four legs that are carrying them this human is the sentient being, that is their partner, that they don't lose. Yeah, the horse either.
Jane:
Embrace it, and isn't it?
Lynn:
It's so wild. And there's a part of me because of this conversation we're having. And because of this journey I've been on especially over the last five years, as I began to feel and as I began to discover some of the joys of like, raising my own pressure threshold, if you will, is there's a part of me that's like, that's really kind of cool. Maybe I could do it for one night, you know, I'm not anywhere near signing up for the whole thing. Yeah, but I think all
Jane:
of us can look at ways that it's possible within what's possible for us, you know, like to, to like there are micro and macro ways of like living that adventure and, and we're all I guarantee all of us have something that we've stopped ourselves doing, that's possible for us to do in the situation that we're in. Because we're just a little bit concerned about it. And it's not about sort of advising anyone to like really compromise their safety but maybe there is a there's a little bit of that in some of these, you know, in all of these adventures you do recognize there's an inbuilt risk right and I think that the experience of wonder and Ola every definition of that includes fear
Lynn:
which is really, really dangerous thing. Yeah, it really really interest I mean and and actually My first step I Stevie della hunt, another mutual friend of ours is the one of the organizers or she's sort of a helper of this race. I am going to go see her in less than a month. I'll be in Bend, Oregon. I'm doing I'm doing her galloping workshop because she, she said to me during the podcast Summit, something like, you know, I'm surprised by how many people tried to do an endurance race that aren't even comfortable galloping on a horse. And I said, How do you get to be comfortable galloping on a horse? And she says, Well, I teach people and I said, Oh, can you teach me? Next thing? I know, I'm going to this workshop. So that's so fun. And that's, that's all it is like, and somebody asked me the other day, are you sure you're gonna gallop? And I said, No. I said, We'll see where I am. Yeah, yeah, no, we're not going as well. So I'm not going to, I'm just not going to go jump on and gallop. But go ahead with your Yeah, no,
Jane:
no, I was just thinking about that. And I wonder if in part as well, it's a, again, a product of circumstance where I've, when I think about galloping, I'm fortunate because I've got like a big estuary or an inlet here. But most of us actually don't have broad stretches of land to ride across anymore. That's exactly right. It's like we're quite limited in like, you can get up to a trot, or maybe it can't differ a few strides. But there's very little natural places around here that I can think of, I certainly can't gallop in my arena, you know, that I can get that level of speed up simply because of restriction of terrain and how farmlands divided up and all of those things. So it is sort of interesting to think about that, how that then feeds back into, you know, our experience with energy with horses as well. And what's possible to acclimatized ourselves to,
Lynn:
yeah, well, you know, well, I haven't done much in the fall gallop in the raining, but you know, we do the rundown, and then the stop. And there's this one or two strikes where the horse will kind of reach almost a gallop, but then you're going to sit and they're going to slide to a stop, you know? Yeah, yeah. And what I what I'm really interested in is that unrestricted time where I'm with a horse, right? And it's truly free to go to gallop along and then to how do we sort of stop galloping? In a way that's not you know, a full runaway or something like that, like, I'm
Unknown:
just really interested in, you're together in the gallop. Yeah. Yeah. Today,
Lynn:
we had an interesting thing happened, though, that showed me that the difference between having this like, discomfort feeling we were talking about talk about putting something in action is riding just in the arena. And this is not a spooky horse. I've never had her spook. But something came from behind us that she took off. Now, I sat very quickly that the thing when it was over, and I was you know, I was fine, little tiny spike of adrenaline. But mostly she and I were fine. And the the trainer's like well done land. And I said, you know, what's really cool is Eve, and we have just happened to be the direction where we were at the gate. So had she continued, we're at the gate and back to the barn. And that's always like the big magnet, right? Yeah. But we we continued on just fine. And I said, but you don't what was really cool is to know I actually am comfortable for if the horse started running, I'm pretty sure I'm just going to stay on and we would have eventually, yeah, worked everything out. Like it was like, there was a time when I assumed if the horse did something that I did not expect him or her to do. The world was coming to an end. Yeah. And if I didn't immediately get control back, then, you know, we're all going to die. And that's such a silly assumption. If you think about it, it's like you can actually ride through a lot.
Jane:
Yeah, well, as well, it's, it's a curiosity to me as adults, especially, if you track the movement of a average adult from Monday to Friday, most of us can say within a fairly predictable pattern, what we'll be doing, and there's very little novelty in movement exploration that most adults experience. And so what that means is that we also have an energetic dial, and again, a level of feeling in the body related to activity that we're comfortable with, and a level that we're not so some people won't even dance or, you know, you go to the playground with your kids, most adults are not in the playground with their kids, most of them are sitting down watching the kids on their phones, or you know, you know, sort of and so, when we think about our horses, and they're constantly challenging our frequencies that we're used to operating within and I think there's there's so much to be said for that in terms of like, I think we crave that on some level. Like that's why so many of us are drawn to horses because they do challenge that and it's simultaneous ly what we're afraid of. But I wonder if we were to play with mixing up that movement experience over the weekend, you know, do things that are outside what we think we should do like dance and go to parkour and go rollerblading and go you know, all the things that are like just did sort of maybe what you did as a teenager or as a kid but you've stopped yourself somehow doing isn't it? about whether we just hold the experience of riding a little more lightly as well and not be so afraid of different movements. I mean, I know that's not exactly what you're talking about. But it is about like the experience of energy and life, like coming out.
Lynn:
But I think that's it like, it's the it's the, the novelty of movement. I love that term, because we're not used to stretching our bounds anymore. It dawned on me the other day, when I was a kid, I could pop a cartwheel in a heartbeat. It was no big deal. Put those hands down, bring the legs over. And I sort of envisioned doing it like out on the, we have this big lawn where I take my dog and we play frisbee and so forth. And I just envisioned what it would mean to put my hand down and do it. And it was like, oh, yeah, it's been 40 years or more, since I've tried that move. I can I can get into a headstand super easy still that when that muscle memory is still there, but that's a lot. Yes. Novel. Yeah, I
Jane:
he, well, my youngest son is seven. And we've got a trampoline that he's like, he just literally lean. It's crazy. Like he gets on there. And he's like, some kind of like out of control center pee, like you just like flipping and leaping around and like doing all the things that might be going Oh, and, and it's interesting again, as adults, wait. So say, for instance, I did a somersault. And I felt really nauseous because I had very bad morning sickness when I was pregnant with both of my kids, and a very high trip, what I feel like feeling nausea now. And and so what my body actually needs is to do more somersaults so that I normalize the somersault and my brain figures out how to not feel sick in the midst of that. But what we do as adults is we stop the activity that causes the symptom that causes discomfort. And so we never get our body to the point of resilience to be able to do that activity again, because we've just decided, Oh, that's not good for me. And so, being constantly prompted on the tramp, I'm like, I can feel my body sort of getting a little more resilient to weird activity as I get like thrown and thrust around.
Lynn:
Oh, yeah, that's another one I used to do. I would do like jumping. I'd land on my button, and I do a turn and then I do a flip. And then yeah, there were all these things that just were no big deal. And it's been I've I have gotten on a trampoline as an adult, but I'm a little nervous when I'm doing those moves. It's like yeah, oh, yeah, break something, or,
Jane:
yeah, it's this, that mindset is so interesting that we get well, we
Lynn:
have a zip line, actually, the longest, fastest steepest zip line in North America is 30 minutes for me. And it's because it's steep, and I'm afraid of heights. It was a major turning point for me. This was October of 2020. After I just started doing this work that I described in my book, dancing the tightrope, and I found myself at this place with some friends, because I'm like the camp director, they said, Let's go ziplining sounds great. I'll organize it. Then we're sitting there. Oh, yeah, of course, that's fine. Then we're all strapped in. And, you know, not not yet going. But then that's when they said they woke up to the longest, fastest deepest supply in North America. And all of a sudden, my brain caught up with my body and what what are you doing? You're about to make a complete fool of yourself in front of everyone. Because not only do you are you scared of heights, but you're not really excited about like, standing up on high things, and then moving off at speed. Yeah. And so the question was, how much improvement had I made? Because when it came time to stand up, and they make you stand up on this little log, so you're already high, and then you're gonna go even higher. And then they say, Go, and I thought, well, they're probably going to have to, like, push me or, you know, whatever. And actually, when I took off, and then you hit with pretty big force, they say, just be prepared. It's going to feel a little strong, felt like I was having a friggin car accident. But what. But then I was like, Oh, I'm okay. And then I got up and I was like, wow, that wasn't that bad. And so did you do that? 11 times on this zipline? Actually, this is what Christina and I are doing in the retreat. At least that's our current plan. We may get nobody to sign up to do this in the retreat. But you know, she's all about play. And I'm all about helping people raise their pressure threshold. And it's like, let's play with rising our pressures. We actually want to be in on that. I want to, does it not say, you're totally invited? Yeah, amazing. But anyway, I was so amazed at the novelty of movement. Like it was actually exhilarating once I got over the crazy feelings. Yeah.
Jane:
Yeah. My little boy is a huge climber, Tommy and he's involved in this club where it's run by two arborists The tree scientist, and they pick really big trees around the town that we live in. And they go and set them up. So the ropes are like on the highest branches and little groups of kids climb the trees, like like crazy heights. You're like, oh my god, yeah, but I have a bit of a crush on Katie, who runs it. She's amazing. So I don't want to tell her that I'm afraid of heights. And I like oh, wow, that looks incredible. But I'm actually going to do it. Because the it looks like such an amazing experience. I too, don't love heights. And I love trees. And I love like the idea of like being in amongst like the core of a tree right up in its branches. Yeah, I love that enough to think well, why wouldn't I do that? Like, ultimately, I'm safe. So there's the only thing that's stopping me is like the thought of it. And so I'm booking in to do one of the tree climbing sessions for adults.
Lynn:
Oh, good. You just said it out loud. It's in public. You're exactly, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That that that being up at that height was the thing I thought wasn't going to work. And this is when my husband actually knew something had changed. Because, you know, after a while, after a couple of trees up there, you figure out the way in in the way out, like you get to this platform. And you're like, Okay, we zipped in here. And there's the line going out. And then we got to the one where recipient, and I can't find the one going out. Yeah, and I'm looking around going. And then you see the rope hanging and they're like, oh, no, this one's a repel. So what we're going to do is hang 10 Hang 10 Watt toes. So you're going to put your 10 Jaws over the edge of the platform, just so that you are on the edge. Oh, great. Don't go near the edge lead was my mantra. And then you're just gonna she says trust the set. And you're going to just repel down. And the repel is literally just you step off and something catches you.
Jane:
Yeah, that's the amount of trust involved in that. Isn't there a huge
Lynn:
amount because my husband who had by that time had been married to me for over 25 years and had watched some epic freak outs over heights. We were waiting, he's over there going, y'all are gonna have to knock her out Drugger or get a helicopter. I don't know how we're getting around here. But it didn't get to be there. And I actually did it. And then I had fun. I was like, wow, that was cool. But it was getting past that first little moment where you're sure you're gonna die. Yeah. And, and there was also the part because I said to the guy, I looked around, I didn't see a ladder. And I said, So what happens if somebody does this is that this actually happens three times. So I think we were on the second or third one. I said, just for curiosity, had I not been able to do this? What do you do? And he goes, Oh, you're coming down on the repel either with me or by yourself? Like it's the only way out of the tree. There's no stairs. There's no way to get a helicopter. And yeah. I said to have you had to drag people. And he said no, it's been ugly. He said, it's been very ugly at times. But no, we've we have our ways. But, you know, it's that I love the idea like, and here I am at 65. But it's like I want more novelty of movement. I want more challenges to my physical self. Because otherwise I'm afraid I'm going to just sit here and become an old lady. And you know, well,
Jane:
that is what happens, isn't it? Like it's it's so interesting because I we went to a clinic just to audit the other day. And there was a lady who needed the mounting block completely fine that we were sitting on to mount her horse. And I had my both my boys there and another friend of mine and she came over and she said to the boys Oh, this is what happens when you get old boys. You know the thing and I was like, back the truck up. That is not what happens when you get do not put that in anyone's brain. Like that's what happens. It's again, I think that's such a condition thought that we're supposed to just gradually break down. Yeah, until like fairly early. You know, like I I was invited to a Facebook group. And this is not the right title. But it's something like people who still ride over 40 And I was like, oh, a series of exploitive sleight came out of my head. I was like over 40 I was like, What do you even mean like that, right? So with the implication that like, come on, you can do it like and it was it was crazy to me that that was a thought process. My husband used to work for National Geographic and his his kind of role was to go they used to film documentaries on hunters that still hunted with traditional methods. And so he went to the Congo and to all these other places around the Kalahari and made like a series based on traditional hunting methods. And what's really interesting there is oftentimes people don't know how old they are. Exactly. There's like a different sort of dating system because they're not working to the same calendar that the elderly quote unquote members of the tribe are like ripped when like you see pictures of them. They're like, really athletic. And they're the ones out there leading the hunt. And that it's not the 17 year old, like the 17 year olds, considered sort of complete greenhorns in the process that's like, you know, you stay behind kind of thing and watch how this is done. And the process of, of dying is a swift and natural one. And something that I learned about the nervous system as well as like, essentially, the nervous the whole design of the nervous system is supposed to hold your hand as you pass away as you transition. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the process of moving into sympathetic and into collapse and into whatever it is we move into after that, is designed to take about six weeks, like sort of a natural death process of gradually you remove yourself from the world, and then the motor system starts to sort of turn itself off. So you have a decreased desire for activity, and then you get a little more introspective, and then gradually, you sort of slip away. And it's very beautiful, actually, if we consider that transition, but most of us are in this phase for like, 40 years. Yeah, you know, like, it's not six weeks, and and then we're medicalized at the end of it, which is, you know, just a product again, of the system that removes the natural capacity of the body to stay, to look after itself, basically. But like you say, like, we are designed to be active and healthy, and with it, like, well beyond the years that we give ourselves credit for. And I think I'm so fortunate to have you and so many other people as friends that like a really varying age groups like younger and older than me, and everyone's so exceptional that I just forget how old anyone is, like when I'm talking to you, I have no consideration of age, we're just friends. Like, it just matters so little. And everyone's so in life that it never, it never occurs to me that you would slow down, like in it just doesn't occur to me that because I've got friends that are in their 70s and some in their 80s that are like hiking and still doing all the things and I don't want to think about them as somehow limited would think I'd probably get a slap, you know, it's like, Who are you to say like you, you've got some catching up to do kind of thing. It's um, yeah, this feels weird to think of it like that. So I guess I'm lucky.
Lynn:
Well, you, I think you are lucky. And you're, you're not letting yourself buy into it, I have to watch it. Because there's something about that age, because you get this, you know, in America, you get this Medicare card, and 65 is the age of retirement. And yet the woman I ride with regularly, almost, we write almost every week, she's 78. And she hasn't slowed down at all drives a tractor takes care of a 2100 acre Preserve. Funnily enough, I had an A 20 Talk to my dog a couple of weeks ago. So Anna is a phenomenal animal communicator, and we got to do it in person because she lives near me. And so my dog is lying in my lap. And Anna said, This is what Piper is showing me. And then she said, here's the timeline of your life, she held up her fingers. And she said, Piper showing me how a lot of people live in this part of their life. And she showed like three fourths of the line. She said, But Piper is showing me that you're living in this part. And then she showed the other half as she goes Piper is showing me that you are making the most of every minute of your life. And I was like, I thought that was so uncanny that my dog is in on that.
Unknown:
Yeah, that's so beautiful. And it's
Lynn:
very, I was like, wow, that is so much how I see it. Like I'm looking at going. I don't know how much time I have left. But I'm living like, every single day, I have to fill it to the max, if that makes sense. We're totally make some kind of movement and you know, like snow skiing, waterskiing. You know, horseback riding ziplining you know, all those things. Oh, yeah. And pickleball, which has been the thing that I've gotten the most hurt doing. Oh, my goodness,
Jane:
I have no idea what Pickleball is, but I hear this pickleball being talked about all the time.
Lynn:
So let me tell you, Okay, I have a theory about why Pickleball is so addictive. You can get pretty good at it pretty fast. And then you can tell you can be better.
Jane:
But that isn't like squash. Is it like is it that kind of game?
Lynn:
It's like,
Jane:
I mean, I'm just because it's called pickleball. Let's just put that out there from the
Lynn:
tennis with ping pong Buck rackets. Oh, yeah, it's like shrink the tennis court. So you're not on a table. But the paddle is a paddle not a racket. So it's sort of like you you make the compromise of a bigger ping pong paddle twice the size. Yeah, but you're playing with a wiffle ball. And so how can it be fun, but it is fun. And here's the thing, there's more like I play tennis, you know, my whole life. But the sweet spot in the tennis racket is much smaller than the sweet spot of a pickleball. Like, and, and the other thing I think I love about it is, all the balls are coming back. Like, unlike tennis where you can score a winner and get to gloat on it, I've tried bad luck and pick a ball because you're gonna eat the ball. I mean, it's coming back even with you're playing with people that are seem like they're slow at all, somehow get the ball back. So what I have discovered is it's just a really great way to like, keep your attention up and stay with it. So but it also is like, according to the Wall Street Journal, the high rate of anything, and according to my massage therapist who's had me working on, we've been restructuring my body and she keeps going, yeah, all that movement is not that great, you're likely to hurt yourself, I tore a hamstring or maybe fascia around a hamstring.
Jane:
Earlier this year, is that where it comes from? They've got themselves in a pickle. That's what it seems
Lynn:
like it should be. Actually I learned because I was party to a game where we did not get pickled, but we pickled the other team, which means they got zero. Is that actually what you say? Oh, yeah, well, you've been pickled, if you don't
Jane:
have so much love for this game that I've never played? Yeah,
Lynn:
you've got to get well, it's a it's a quickly addictive game. And it is very fast growing. But again, it's one of those novel movements, right? It's got me back out moving. And even though I did hurt myself, and I'm, this will be interesting to tell you and hear what your reflection is because my injury occurred, right at the time, I was letting go of some really old, deep emotional stuff. So when I go work with Bruce Anderson, a lot of times things come up in the way we work together. And whole assumptions just are falling off of me like scales, like the horses are showing me things. And it's like, it's like layers and layers of this stuff is coming off, and then my body starts rearranging my massage therapist, like, I can see your dis twist, you've had your whole life, your pelvis is changing. You're like, all of these things. And she's helping, you know, kind of organize it. But she said this is coming from the inside out. Yeah, so that's beautiful, from July,
Jane:
but there's a lot more injury that comes through lack of movement than through movement. That's the first thing that I would put out. Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, the fact Well, the fascial system is such an amazing system in the body I just have, so I'm so in love with it as a system. And basically, whenever the from my perspective, at least, say we have a, an interaction between us that you find upsetting in some way. But the the kind of full cycle of that interaction doesn't meet completion, meaning that you kind of hold on to it, perhaps you don't address it with me, it's not resolved to the point where you then go about your day, and that's relegated to the past, like a little piece of you is kind of holding on to that interaction. And what happens in that moment is the body goes into somewhat of a sympathetic response and the the experiences is held in the fascia, it's kind of like a sticky sort of adhesion in the fascia. And then when that part of your body is liberated to change or move in some way. So whenever the body is seeking new physiological or physical patterns, everything tied to that particular area, emotionally or behaviorally, behaviorally, also gets liberated also, because we we can't change what we're not aware of. And so it's kind of like I say, this detoxification program, process rather, I don't know if that word is right detox, but it's kind of the closest that I have happen all the time where the you go through some kind of physical change, and all of a sudden you find yourself in this emotional maelstrom. And the key to it really is usually the emotions and behaviors you're experiencing have so little context to the reality of what's happening right now. Like it might be, all of a sudden, you remember these memories that came up or a situation or something's brought itself to the surface? And you're like, where did that come from? And it literally is like the sort of like floating through the emotional component that was tied to the physical data is in the process of changing. And so it's interesting, like with twists and asymmetry, we see that as part of a neurological flight pattern. And so the body is basically like oriented away from something, you're literally leaving out the door. And people will try to correct that, you know, physically through manipulation and other ways. But until the brain has made a decision that that's no longer If necessary, the it will keep returning because basically, it's just part it's your body's expressing the truth of what you feel internally. And so it's so interesting what your body workout was. Yeah, it's coming from the inside out. My belief is ever everything is so like the structure self corrects in alignment with the thought, you know, in alignment with the shedding. And so when that's when it deems flights no longer necessary now, we're like back in a different position. Yeah,
Lynn:
I think that's exactly what's been happening because for years, she's worked with me for a good 10 years, and I'm the water skier. So there is a twist in what we're doing with the physical body because the right foods in front of the left, we're putting tremendous load on our bodies going back and forth. One way is different than the other, the offside, the onside and so forth. But now, notwithstanding, waterskiing, still, it's rearranging and it has to do and I can feel like it's stuff that I've been carrying since I was little Betty. Like what what came up in the middle of it, it's the middle of my right hamstring. What was in there feels like some kind of flight thing from maybe two, three years old that I've been holding my whole life. Yeah. And it's been feeling really good and interesting to let it go. Yeah,
Jane:
yeah, the key is in observing, rather than investing in the process, which is like, I can just observe those emotions, rather than, like, have to kind of dissect them and get into them and kind of create a story out of them.
Lynn:
That's so in my self awareness work. I'm curious. It sounds like you have a similar theory. But it's, I have come to realize that being able to observe the stuff as it comes up, and observe it in a way away, like you said, That's not invested. But then actually, while it's up, show myself a different path, rather than diving into and dissecting and analyzing the old. Yes, actually the way out of it. Absolutely.
Jane:
It you use it as information to to create future choices. So it's like, Okay, that's interesting. What am I going to do now? Like, rather than like,
Lynn:
what now?
Jane:
You know, rather than going backwards, it's like, yeah, well, what do I do with that information, and sometimes there'll be nothing to do with it. It's just like, that was what it was. And that's unfortunate. And, you know, I went through an experience recently, where similar to you, I feel like I've been shedding layers of gauze, from my mind, and from my emotion as my body has changed. And some of that has caused me to reflect on experiences in my life that I realized I've had rose tinted glasses around that actually weren't that great. And so, you know, I could look back on aspects of childhood and go, Well, that was kind of really not okay, that that sort of happened. And I've had this idea about a lot of data. And, and you can think, well, what's the use of that, but the use of that has been that then I could feel a certain level of sort of crossness, or anger, if you like, that was healthy, and much healthier response and being like, it's fine. It's okay, like, really wasn't fine really wasn't okay. But then not to hold on to that to sort of, like, liberate that to actually have authentic conversations with people that actually changed the nature of your relationship so that you're no longer skirting along the surface of niceties and actually properly talking to people and properly making changes and having something that you feel like has depth rather than has superficiality. And that's not necessarily an easy process, but it's a much more rewarding one, then a been the opposite. Yeah, so I hear you on that. And some of it's just like, well, I can't change that. That just was what it was. And I just have to accept that and realize that so much I was talking with, with a friend about this the other day. So much of the difficulty that happens in our life isn't personal, like we're just kind of in life, like any other being is in life. And shit just happens, like sometimes and it's not it's not fair. That sounds a bit like what is really and it's kind of like, you can either choose to brood on it, or you can just keep going. And that's not to say we don't help or extend compassion or realize our privilege, you know, like, again, a layered conversation, but yeah, oh, no, it's just interesting. Yeah. It's
Lynn:
that that balancing act of what to address and how to address things in the past. And, you know, the past isn't in the past, if it's still running you if it's interfering. It's not in the past. Right. The question is, is it informing you or interfering with you? And to me, it's like first making that distinction. And then how do you remove the interference? That's the key.
Jane:
And sometimes that's just a matter of choosing to write like, it's like, okay, well, I'm just gonna stop continually dwelling on that expecting something to change or, or expecting someone else to change. I think that It's a lot of work where our problems come up. It's like, we expect other people to change in accordance with our desires. And actually, recognizing that may not ever happen. Just stops you like pretty
Lynn:
generally not going to Yeah, but yeah, we also we also can change my daughter works with with parents who have kids in addiction. And a lot of that comes from the patterns of the family past. And so, you know, they may not actually you really can't change an adult child and addiction, but what you can change is what you do with that adult child. And, for example, not going to your bank account every time they're in trouble to bail them out, or selling the house so that they can go to the 2023 hab when the first night team didn't work, you know, not, you know, continuing the same old games trying to change somebody else doesn't work. But when we change our way of responding, the dance has to change. Because there you're no longer there for the old dance step. Yeah.
Jane:
Yeah, man. It's, it's, it's brutal, isn't it sometimes, like True, true love can be brutal. Like, it's like, actually, I'm not going to keep supporting the thing that I know is ultimately your demise. That's, that's the, the truest form of love and the hardest form of love. And, yeah, it's always, you know, the boundaries. And that expression comes down to, for me the willingness to lose, which is like when we're not willing to lose when we have to control the situation, we often don't make the most honest choices, because we're afraid that the expression of that action will mean some of my labor or won't stick around or, you know, perhaps it's going to be uncomfortable conversation, or, you know, I have so much respect for your daughter and everyone in that field. And everyone going through that. It's just it's so hard, man. Yeah,
Lynn:
well, it is the one of the hardest decisions when I was working with her along those lines was dealing with my own feeling as a failure of a mother. Yeah. And yet telling her, I'm not gonna give you the money, if I die, like I have to cut you out of my will. Because if I die tomorrow, and you get this money, I'm effectively killing you. Because you can't come into money. Right now. Like, you really have to get this thing under control before we talk about money. And so it's like, okay, I'm failing, because she's probably gonna die. And I'm failing because I was a horrible mother and have to cut her out of my will. And it's yet it's the fear of failure that brought us to that place, if you look at it, and had I been willing to have those real conversations sooner, had I not had on the rose colored glasses, and brushed off things, because of my fear of being a bad mother, we would have maybe come to that place a lot sooner. Yeah. And so I say that out loud for whoever's listening, because and I don't very often talk to the audience while we're while I'm talking to you, but I'm just thinking about the the box people feel like there and say there is a third way. It's not damned if you do and damned if you don't, but get up on the balcony and see the other way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the nervous system stuff is what makes us think we're failing to back to the threat of this conversation.
Jane:
Yeah, yeah, man. And also just the D contextualization of how we're even within a family unit these days. I mean, like, that it's come, everything comes down to us, for our children. It's not supposed to, you know, like, it's not, we're supposed to have this circular table of support with other people holding our hand and holding our children's hand. And it's just not really there anymore, except if we're really lucky. So it's so much. Yeah, that's what
Lynn:
you know, you did have a, you had a very cool post about your 12 year old son going about that, as well. So there's so much so if we can go there. I'd love to talk about what you posted. So I'm familiar because I got certified to do scuba diving years ago and I had to do the swimming pool, swim. And yesterday, your post on Facebook, you talked about, you know having to sit on the sidelines and watch your 12 year old son, who is your little boy, that's the problem, right? He's your little boy, but your 12 year old son have to swim that thing and not touch the bottom or the sides for something like an hour. Yeah,
Jane:
yeah, it was a Yeah. So Flynn's really, he's so fascinating to me. One of the things I really admire about Flynn, which we've joked about is kind of like the thing that we rally against in the day to day which is basically like I am completely my own person. I am not hindered by the opinions of others. If I believe in something, I'm going to do it, I have it he really. And I think this way homeschool, which is perhaps like a kind of like, interesting point to make here and that and I say that because he considers himself to be equal with every adult that he comes across. And so if he's infantilized in some way, he really loves it. Because usually, when it comes to the questions that he's asking, he actually really knows what he's talking about. So he's like, really into his motorbikes. And he can pull the whole engine apart and put it back together. And so sometimes he'll go back to MC two mechanic shops, and they'll be like, oh, you know, they're sort of making gestures to him. And it's like, no, I need like this part for the air pressure valve and for the thing, and then they're like, oh, right, okay. And so, so when he gets into something, he really gets into something. And, and diving is one of those things that he's really got into. And so he's also really fortunate in that my husband's a stay at home dad, after his film, film career, and he's very adventurous with them. So they're always sort of doing things with dad, and he's a water baby. So he said, You know, I think I want to do my patty. And what's really interesting, is that I am not comfortable in the water. And so yeah, I am really, and I actually get the same sort of thing that I do with high, it's almost like a vertigo of like, what's beneath me, like, that's there. I have so much respect and love for the ocean, but I, it's interesting, I'm gonna play with this, because maybe it's my next frontier to kind of, like, get in this and more. But a, it's freezing in the water here. So that's one thing. And, and it's, it's wild. Like, it's not like, you know, the Mediterranean, it's the Pacific. And it's, there's everything out there. So it's, he said, I want to do my Paddy. And my first thought was, oh, my goodness, because they go out and they dropped down to eight meters, I think it is. I mean, he's 12. And I was like, okay. But this is life, right, like, so I thought, well, first thing, if he gets accepted for the paddy, which wasn't a dead certainty, because of his age, it's not usual. And so they had to show sort of an extra level of enthusiasm and extra level of commitment. And the first part of it, I might be getting this wrong is like a, it's a 20 hour online course, like quite an extensive online course. And he just whipped through it, like all the pressure equations, and all this stuff. And when he got there, he had done his homework, and a lot of the adults hadn't, which was really interesting. But what I why I'm telling sharing all this is because I know that like, I don't have to want to do the same thing. Or even be confident about it. To recognize passion in someone else. It's not my business, like it's not my role to to police, his passions. And I actually think that's what saves people, right? Like, my passion for horses saved me like in so many ways. And so we both me and my husband had this idea that as long as our kids are into something, then that'll be like such a guide rail for like the times where things get a little bit wonky. And so he's definitely into this. So he's got got accepted, has been going. So this week, it's every night from six till nine, which is really late for a good three hours in the pool. Like it's a long time. And so the first night had been theory last night, they the night before, they did a whole lot of stuff. And my husband had been there those two nights. And then last night I went, and yeah, I just heard the instructions, they were like, right, so we're gonna do a 200 meter swim, it's going to be so many laps of this pool, it's you can't touch the sides, or touch the bottom, or you can't stop or touch the bottom, then we're going to do a minute rest. And then it's a 10 minute free like a float, they call it which is basically just treading water for 10 minutes, and then we're going under, and we're going to dive for it. And they were underwater for an hour. And my heart just like dropped because I thought like he can swim. But usually we stop, you know, there's not like, the continuous nature of it. And then I thought, Well, this was absolutely what has to happen. Because if something goes wrong, and he's out there, he does need to have a certain level of proficiency. So it's not that I disagreed with it, or, you know, it's an important thing for him to pass. But part of the Mon part of me was like, Oh, he's worked so hard. And what if he doesn't get this part he won't be able to keep going. I sort of was like, pre empting, the, the disappointments and how I would cope with the disappointment. And and then also, I was just worried about him. Like I saw I texted my husband, I was like, oh my goodness, like what do you think about this? And we had like a wall like conversation like, oh, that's kind of a lot, you know? And so I went down to the side of the pool and he was there and he was a bit embarrassed that I came down because he's you know, one of the one of the guys and I said Are you okay with this and I was also trying to stay say, Can you just stop splashing around because you're using all your energy like face Feel for a minute. And he was like, why? He's just like, you know, totally ignored me. I was trying to pay strategically. And he said, Yeah, I'm, I'm just gonna do it on my back. Like they said, it doesn't matter what stroke you do so and I feel most comfortable at that stroke. And he's waited, he's got a weight belt on, which is like, it's no small fry thing. And he just, he just sort of did it. He just, he just said to me, it's just part of it. Like, and he was not concerned, he's like, I just have to do it. And, and that's so much him. Like, he's just when he he's determined, not in a sort of way that's like ignoring his body. But just like he just believes you can do it. And he just does it like he does. And he did it. And everyone was like clapping for him at the end. And the the instructor actually came up to him and said, you know, we don't often take young people in this course for good reason. And the ones that we have normally stop at least part. And so he was really soaked with himself, which he deserved to be. And I was really emotional. And it was just a really, I don't know, I posted a little video clip of it in my membership group, because I'd been talking about it in a q&a we had that morning, and someone posted on there. Oh, isn't it interesting what we would do if we didn't have the baggage of thinking that we couldn't? And I was like, exactly what I thought like, I felt like this role reversal of like, I was in complete admiration of him. Because had I been in the pool, I would have been like, oh, I don't know that. I can do that. Like it's, um,
Lynn:
I'm gonna save my energy. I'm not gonna Yeah, yeah. Have
Jane:
any of that he just did it. And then, you know, he's, he's, yeah, it was lovely. So I was all misty eyed like I was at the Olympics.
Lynn:
Wow. Well, you know, the thing I really viscerally felt when I read your piece, was the piece of letting him do it. Like, there's a little, like mom voice in me that wants to reach down and go. Now, that's a bridge too far. I can't let you do this. And it's like letting him do it. Even if he hadn't succeeded. He needed to do what he did.
Jane:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Nothing would ever have been lost. Like he has learned so much through the course that it would never have been, you know, if he'd stopped this at this point. And there's four more sessions to go in this particular series that sort of quite an intensive training that I would have just been like, you know, I never would have thought, Oh, what a waste of money or like, what, uh, it just Yeah, it doesn't really occur to me. And I, I think this all the time when I have conversations, and most of the people that work with me are women, where their husbands are just really unsupportive of their horses. And they say, I get it like, they're not horsey. I'm like, You know what, I really don't like motorbikes. And I'm really not into water. And yet, I don't have to be into motorbikes or water to understand that my son can be completely passionate about it and support that passion. Like, our role is not to police, other people's passions, it's to support them. And, and I don't have to, yeah, I don't, you know, it's I don't have to be comfortable with it. It's not. Yeah, as long as I
Lynn:
listen to that our role is not to police other people's passions. No, it's not, like, that's such a big thing to not try to interfere with other people because of our own things. And like, just because of your concern, valid concern for your son, you could have put a stake in the ground. I've known mothers who would have put a stake in the ground. Yeah, I mean, we have been
Jane:
about it. It's like he's gonna be he's going out with an instructor on him. Like he's, he's there with a one on one. It's not like he's diving in a group. We've checked out all of those things. I knew if something went wrong in the pool last night, there are three people on the sidelines gonna jump in a fourth, if you include me, they probably want to rescue me as well. But like, you know, I know that this is like, within the control mechanism that it's possible to control. It was controlled and out in the sea, you know, it's a calculated risk, but it's you know, what learned to calculated risk every time I get on my horse, like, it's a character, you know, and I just don't want that life I don't want him to. That's why I'm so passionate about living my own passions, because I want my kids not to have my passions, but to have their own and think that they have every right to follow them. And they have every right
Lynn:
there is no such thing as risk free. Every time we get in our car, you know, as a pilot, I often people you know, talk about the dangers of flying. And yes, planes crash, but generally not with prepared pilots and, you know, generally prepared pilots walk away If they have to put a plane down, not 100% of the time, but but it's still more dangerous to drive to the airport than to fly the airplane. Yeah. And we treat that with as if it's no big deal. And, you know, I came actually I came off the horse last week, I hadn't come off. And this was the same place, I'd had my accident five years or six years ago now. And he just went, the horse went down on his knees, and he wasn't gonna get back up. And I tried to sit with him for a second. And I realized, okay, the two options if I stay here, or he's going to somersault over me, or I'm going to end up on his head while he's trying to stand up, because that's the angle with his two front knees down. So I just very calmly rolled off on the left, I wear a vest and it deployed. I sat there and unzipped it and said, Can y'all catch the horse? And I got right back on. Yeah. And, you know, I was a little nervous to tell my husband because he's like, if you come off, it's not good. He used to ride endurance horses, and his buddy has been hurt pretty badly twice. So I get his fear. But it's like, that's, Look, we all got back on. Yeah. And the horse. My horse wasn't lame. I was able to, like, have my hat my, my Rode one handed, right down on the, you know, weathers no problem within five minutes. And yeah, it's just like, you know, you can make it worse because of your fear, I think is my point. Yeah. And I think that also,
Jane:
we spoke to this a little before. It's just acknowledging that it's hard and acknowledging that it's not risk free and acknowledging that it's dangerous. Like, there's been no point along the way, where we've said to my son, oh, it's fine, you'll be fine when he feels okay. I've been like, you know what, love you're on the weekend, you're going meters under the ocean, I said, That is no small effort. I said, you need to know what you're doing out there. You will, I will not let you get in the ocean unless you do your study. And I haven't had to like, he does that. And I also said, and you need to eat properly, and you need to sleep properly. I said, because you do not want to be in a place where you're feeling out of sorts and getting in the water. I said, I'm not letting that happen. But if you tick those boxes, you absolutely go. And if any, at any point you choose not to it's 100%. Okay, there is like zero pressure at any point to continue on, you get to choose every every step along the way. And so that's been sort of the parameters and knowing the institution well, that he's weird that they're really, you know, competent, and, and caring. And, yeah, so and it's the same with everything. It's like you need to need to know what's real. And then just do your best to meet those meet those points, and then go for it. Basically,
Lynn:
just like we put our seatbelts on in the car, and like, we were flying, we go through a whole thing about, you know, how is our energy Good? Have we, you know, definitely no alcohol or drugs or anything like that, like, making sure if and if you find yourself to stress, this is not a good time to fly. If you find yourself rushed, you know, never put yourself in a situation where you have to be somewhere. Yeah, more pilots have died from this than almost anything else. You have to be somewhere. And so you'll take risks you otherwise wouldn't take, you'll fly into whether you'll fly with less fuel. You'll fly when you're too tired. So yeah, it's like, we just have to be sensible about it. Yeah, about the way we take risks, and then we can do it and we need to be alive. We're all gonna die. This is the this is the final point about risk, isn't it? Yeah, we're all gonna die. And you know, when you were talking about the six weeks of this of the nervous system, I was thinking, you know, I kind of have a vision of just living like, I'm going to skin into the grave. Like, yeah, I'm going to I don't want sick leave in six weeks, because I've watched too many of my family members decline. It's more like, I'll just go fast fight fastest, fine.
Jane:
Yeah, yeah,
Lynn:
I hear anyway, you know, my dad, when he before he died, he said, You know, I want to shave on the morning, I die. Meaning I want to have that any debt. It actually worked out pretty much that way for him. So it was, it's good, right? But I can't end this conversation without asking you about one thing. And this is actually how I first heard your name. It was several years ago, and I'm thinking it was on work. Terrified now I'm like, oh, no, no. Well, so what people don't know because when we're on a podcast is it sounds like we're right here together And it feels like we are except for you're halfway around the world. You're in New Zealand. Right? Y'all might have noticed she has one different accent than mine. But we're having this conversation from halfway around the world. But in September of 2018, you were a mere 20 minutes down the road from me and the World Equestrian Games. Yes. Yeah. And I first heard of you, and at that moment, I was like someday I have to meet Jane pike. This woman sounds like my hero because Warwick and Robin talked to you about how you prepared them for the World Equestrian Games, where they both performed at their peak. Yeah, I
Jane:
mean, I feel like this so generous in their assessments of me all the time. And they're like, they're so incredible by themselves, you know?
Lynn:
They are, they are and yet they sought your help to help them get ready for a pretty dang big deal.
Jane:
They did. Yeah, yeah. And it was such an honor. And I had such a blast sailing, to be honest, like it was the whole trip was because Katie and I Kadena grantee. And I and another friend of ours, Rachel drove the horses from California to South Carolina. I did like the big roadie to get there. And that was super fun in and of itself. But yeah, the the prep before I was in I mean, so it's so interesting, because that seems like six years ago, isn't it? That's wild that it six years ago. It feels like yesterday, and and a lot of my work has sort of evolved since then, as well. Like, there's so much that I'm doing now that I didn't even have mind to do then. But yeah, is there anything specific you want to chatter about with that? It's like,
Lynn:
Well, the thing Okay, so you're and I have I haven't gotten back to listen to this recently. But this is how much it stuck in my mind. Because I remember Warwick talking about, like, maybe they were listening to recordings that were two different things in their ears. Yeah. So
Jane:
at the time, I don't really do this so much anymore. And I don't know, there's no like valid reason why I guess I've just moved into more of a movement based movement based work, but I've studied and have like a Masters of hypnotherapy. And one of the premises of hypnotherapy is to get the person into a relaxed state and to sort of I guess, just to keep this the explanation simple, you sort of like, upload thoughts while someone is in a really receptive sponge like zone to, to the to the subconscious. And one of the ways that this is that that I created for them was that I created two different. So the first part is like, what is it that we're working with here? Like, what do you feel like their limitations are, you know, and we sort of like address that in a number of different ways? And then so funny that you asked is, so this is so many people's fascination they like, what about the audio? Like, what was the audio that you made, because work talked about that? And, and so the audio was me sort of designing a script, if you like, around the needs and wants that, say where I could outlined, and then I record that in one stream, and then I record another in another stream and have them playing at different times. And the idea is you put on the headphones, and you just relax and do whatever that looks like for you. But because one feed starts and you can kind of keep up with that, right? Like, you're like, Okay, I'm listening along, my conscious brain can keep up. And then the other feed starts in the other year, and pretty soon, you can't keep up with it. And the idea is, it's not to get beyond conscious thought. And so because you can't keep up with it. After a while your conscious brain goes, let's just like, let go of this. And so it's just humming along in the background. So the the two strands of audio are like a specific design to get beyond normal thought processes, trying to keep up with what it is that's going on in the audio, because the purpose of it is not to work with the conscious mind. The purpose is to work beyond that. And so I had him listen to that over a period of time, and he certainly found it to be helpful. So according to his assessments, which is wonderful.
Lynn:
Well, and not just his assessments, but I think he got one of his best scores.
Jane:
You did? Yeah. I mean, I was like, completely not ofay with the writing world. At that point, I had so many so many hilarious experiences where they let me ride PT, I think it was bareback and bridle less and I started to do a spin. But I couldn't figure out how to stop I didn't realize there was like a stop button that needed I'm spinning around. I'm like worried how do I stop like we keep going. So that was kind of amusing. But one of the things that I think coming from sort of more of an English background is that you're always quiet when people compete. And then in the raining once I realized, oh pletely unleashed. I lost my voice like after the first day I was like, like, literally I felt like I was growing some kind of some extra terrestrial objective my throat from all of the strain that my voice was getting. But yeah, it was they both got personal bests. So
Lynn:
I remember well, I'm There's a picture I think it's a Robin with you in the background that I've seen. And Farrell, you. Well, you are as happy for her as she is for herself. Yeah, I read I was she was she on Oscar PD? Or who? Oscar, oh my god and Oscars pretty proud of himself. And I'm proud of them. I so Oh, it's just the whole thing. Just, you know what I, you know, because of the clients, I work with performance under pressure is that thing. And a lot of the work I do is reducing the interference. And it's really, it's actually interference of the subconscious mind that occasionally leaks into the conscious. And so that's why I was so interested in it is how do you get rid of the interference that people don't even realize they have? Because they just think it's normal?
Jane:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that that was one of the things that I did. I did with them. Yeah. It's, it was such a, you know, it was so commendable with them for so on so many levels, because just like any aspect of the competition world, I'm not going to single out any anything I have sort of I don't compete at all anymore and have zero interest in it personally. Yeah. But, but it is a world where ethics can be compromised, you know, and welfare of the horses can be compromised. And you see it visibly. Like it's kind of like out there. And I think there are lots of conversations addressing that. And so to have two horses that are competing at that level that live in a herd that live uncovered that, you know, where the whole purpose of the project, if you want to call it that was to see is this possible without compromising the horses welfare? To that extent, and, and it was, yeah, it was it was really it was dreamy, and I came in as well as groom quote, unquote, let it really need me but I came it got that ticket as groom for Oscar. So that was awesome. I got to lead him around. And, you know, the whole World Equestrian Games was just wild because the set they just weren't ready when we got there. Like,
Lynn:
we were all sitting here watching him, build it, go in there and go be ready. Does anybody know they're coming into a construction project? Yeah,
Jane:
yeah. And we were briefed, like, you know, you don't don't talk about this. You can't talk about this on social media or anything. So I presume I'm outside of that now. But
Lynn:
um, well, outside of it, I think although, yeah. But it's,
Jane:
um, it was it was it was really interesting. And we had we made a decision to just not focus on that stuff. Because you could get really railroaded by the grounds not being ready. And you know, lots of people when thinking about that, and all this stuff, and it's like, well, it's going ahead, regardless, so we, we either get in amongst it, or, you know, so so many things like the accommodation, Katie and I were sharing a room and there was they didn't have a room for us. And then at one point in the night, and the Italian team checked into our room while we were in bed, and that people came in and then came out and then they checked us out in the morning and moved on our staff. And then they said they had we had to go into the tents like it was, it was not it was chaos, like it was literal chaos. And it became humorous, like it was just so chaotic that it would be became comical. But we had a code word. That was actually water. Because I tried to order a bottle of water and nobody could understand me. I was like water, water, water, water, like I was going through this rendition of trying to like say, like, what does she want, and I was like, making raindrops with my hands. Like just eventually Katie came over and said water in an American accent and got a bottle of water. But um, so our codeword was water. And, and every time we felt like someone was getting down a track, which was not taking us in a helpful direction, we'd be like water and water and, like, stop. Okay, just meant ceasefire. You can't talk about that anymore. And it worked really well, you know, because it was a way of like, just keeping ourselves on the, on the track we wanted to be on.
Lynn:
Well, you know, when I'm training my dog, I have a couple of little sounds I make that interrupt her brain like I can see her brain getting off in a bad place. And yeah, I've just got a couple of little sounds and it kind of calls her back. She's like, Oh, yeah, I remember. And yeah, she's this moat and I want her making the decisions. Right. I'm not a micromanager. But it's amazing what you can do to interrupt your brain and have these little things to bring yourself back. And yeah, make no mistake like the World Equestrian Games. First of all, it's it you weren't ready. So you were showed up and I heard there was a lot of drama around grooms. Where were the games gonna stay? Right You're in a construction zone and then the endurance race went off and didn't work. And they set people it was a really bad thing. So the first event is not going well and one of the biggest sponsors just behind that race. So you got all that drama.
Jane:
I mean, they were talking about calling it a In like canceling it and doing again the next year, I could
Lynn:
imagine why. And then because then a hurricane is coming. So the night of the reigning finals, it was raining.
Jane:
Yeah, it was. And that was part of the reason why the accommodation was such a big deal because I was like, Look, I'm not going to sleep in a mesh tent, the night the hurricanes coming through, like I just not like it's, you're gonna have to find something else because that's just not what I say
Lynn:
if I'd only known you because 20 minutes down the road. We had cabins nobody used. We got them ready for the World Equestrian Games. But at the time, I didn't know any I like I get my like, I did not have a way to get myself into. We've got this stuff. We had trailer parking, we had everything. Yeah. So and by the way, that's why we're doing that. That's how the cabins that I'm what we're using in the retreat when I do that with Christine got to be done was thanks to the World Equestrian Games, even though we didn't use it for that it was it's a funny, very funny full circle moment. But I just had to hear a little bit about it directly from you, because I when I first heard your name was through that experience, and this is when I didn't know Robin and Warwick as well, it was I knew him because he was on my podcast before he started his podcasts. But yeah, and I I didn't even know what writing was. Okay,
Jane:
well, yeah, I mean, I was like, I read them as well. Yeah,
Lynn:
I grew up in Texas. I did rodeo I knew barrel racing, I did all that stuff, or knew it. I was like, What's this writing stuff. And then three months later, I found out that one of my friends is had bought a couple of reining horses. Her trainer was route for Brazil, that particular like in the same event, and now they have a new facility that they put together and and you know, in the in the performance world are probably trading horses as well as they can be treated. Yeah, she's the She's the owner that's been known to call out more than one trainer in the warmup pin. During events. There's one guy that I was watched her do it one day, this was at the futurity in Oklahoma 2019. And she called him out, I won't say who it was, but she's like, all over it, like pointing at him. And of course, he didn't want to be made wrong in front of everybody. And he still simmers, when he walks by our buddies, they interestingly,
Jane:
normalized that behavior with horses that someone feels okay to do that in a public setting like that. It must be so normal that yeah, that it's not even thought about to do that. And, you know, it's it's very, I'm hoping there's a lot of change coming through, but it's not without its rumbles, that's for sure. Well,
Lynn:
the more money you throw at it, and we won't even go down that road. Throw out at the harder it's gonna get, and there's a lot of money getting thrown at raining right now. So well, so you know, you've you've alluded to your what is it? What is your group called? It has joy in the name
Jane:
remind me during ride, joy ride my membership group? Yeah.
Lynn:
Okay, I was getting a little bit confused, because I actually have a friend writing a book called Joy Ride journeys. And so I thought, I can't be saying it.
Jane:
Yeah, yeah. My business is called confident rider. But my membership is called Joy Ride. So
Lynn:
joy, ride and confident rider, and I know, we have a lot of writers listening to this podcast, who are probably going oh, I want to know more about how Jane works. So can you describe for people how you work with them what they could? How they could learn from you? All that good stuff? Yeah,
Jane:
yeah, of course. Um, so the membership from a horse perspective is the most sort of the biggest way people work with me. And that's kind of the access point. And it's really about creating nervous system adaptability, so that we can, we can sort of get out there and do what it is that we want. And I talk about this all the time, like, I really would rather not talk about the nervous system as much as I do. It's, it's sort of, you know, it is what it is, but because the thing is that I'm interested in it actually like, what we've been talking about, like having a full and adventurous life and being creative and getting out there and doing things. But I recognize that as the portal to those things that I have to kind of take care of that. And so there's a few aspects to the, to the membership itself, and the way that I work with people. One is, is a really big sort of movement based experience. So I teach a number of live sessions a week, and there's a big resource library there that relates to what we talked about getting the sensory system up and going. And then we have weekly discussions around things that are going on for people, you know, mindset related and behavioral related and ways to kind of like, work our way through through those blips and the community in there is part of what makes it I think everyone's so supportive and wonderful that it's that collective support can't really be an estimated I don't think it just reminds you that you're not alone. And the insanity is that you feel a shared insanity. It
Lynn:
certainly felt that today with you because there's a part of me, you know that I'm a little bit of a fan girl. And I'm like, well, she's like me, she has to know I'm a fan go right back. And
Jane:
yeah, but it's a bit of a melting pot of all of those things. And some good conversations in there as well. So So
Lynn:
is in there? Do you do it through a website? Forum? Facebook group? Yes, you're
Jane:
right I have. So there's a membership site that all of their foundation material sits on, and all of the recorded sessions goes on. And then I have a Facebook group, which is where the community conversations take place. But all of the sessions that I do are on Zoom, so you can join me live or catch the recordings later. That's
Lynn:
fantastic. Yeah. Well, I hope everybody checks that out. Because it sounds amazing. And like I said, like I quoted a few or talked about a few of the things you've posted just on your public Facebook, and I find the pieces so compelling, when I read them that I have to sit with them sometimes. You know, because your your point of view I feel is coming very similar from mine, your your, you know, the, the noise in the head, the the things that we're struggling with are just so very similar. And yet, you know, I look at you, I see pictures of you riding and I'm like, there's there's a confident rider out there. Oh,
Jane:
thank you. Yeah, it's, it's weird, isn't it? Like when I that name, confident rider is probably not really one that I choose these days. It's like, I don't even know if it sums things up completely. But it's there. It's there. And we'll go.
Lynn:
You know what, that's where, here's the thing is you got to meet people where they are. And most people start with I want more confidence. And that's not where I start with people. Once they say that I say I actually start with your courage. Yeah. Because that was given to you at birth confidence is rearview mirror thing. Yeah, but, but nonetheless, it's for people start saying you gotta give Yeah, you got to start with people where they are, so they can find you.
Jane:
Yeah, and I'm putting together another course at the moment, which I haven't really told anyone. I briefly mentioned it in my membership yesterday. But that has to do with more place based exploration, because we talk a lot about connection in the horse world, but we don't really, you know, that can be a very singular conversation. And what I'm really interested in is like connection to landscape and the place that you find yourself in and, and all of the aspects that come to that, that includes horses, that includes nature itself, nature of nature of the environment. And so those are kind of bigger conversations. And I'm
Lynn:
excited. That sounds like a very holistic, it is yeah, I
Jane:
just saw it just hit me the other day, when I was writing something, I was like, you know, I put something out there where I was, like, you know, a lot of people can't tell you what, what the phase of the moon is, or what borrowed bridgeable food is in their area, or, you know, what were the patterns have effect on their horses necessarily. And I know that sounds glib, and I don't mean to be like, you know, necessarily into a strong astronomy or astrology. But if you don't know the face of the moon, it doesn't it means that you're not outside at night very often, or you're not, you know, it's like paying attention to the environment that you're a part of, and we've become so distanced from that. That those are the questions that really moved me these days. And so I'm like, well, let's do something there, then.
Lynn:
I think a lot of people are craving that. Yeah, I do. I know. I love being outside at night. I love sitting under a full moon.
Jane:
Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's these little things that are actually the big things. And things that remind us what we're here for. Yeah,
Lynn:
we keep coming back to getting outside. I know we do. Everybody should do it. Well, thank you so much for being here. And for everybody listening, check out everything that you've heard Jane talk about on her website. And we'll have those links, and so forth in our show notes. And please be sure and rate the podcast on your favorite podcast app, share it with your friends, and I look forward to hearing you on the next podcast. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
Jane
Pike
Jane Pike is a writer, poet, and horsewoman from the South Island of New Zealand. In the horse world, her work focuses on practices and understandings that increase vitality for both humans and horses, incorporating nervous system awareness to both mindset and movement. The methods she teaches explore physical and emotional patterns at their most foundational level- the brain and the nervous system- with the aim of creating adaptability and responsiveness, both in and out of the saddle. Jane has featured and written for various magazines around the world and is a sought after international clinician and trainer through her business Confident Rider.
Jane’s passions and expertise also extend to how we can best live full and creative lives, and develop the tenacity and courage to do so. Her deep appreciation for writing and the arts has also seen her skip down the garden path of how it is we can all find and allow for our own unique creative expression, sharing her own writing and teaching retreats and workshops that focus on giving ourselves permission to and making the time for following the things that we love.
www.confidentrider.online
janepike.substack.com
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