#77 Jessie Dowling: A Journey of Passion and Resilience

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Lynn, Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now here's your host. Lynn Carnes,

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welcome to the creative spirits unleash Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. My guest for this episode is Jessie Dowling. She's an endurance rider who just completed the Tevis Cup last month and the Mongol Derby last year. Both of these events are some of the toughest horse races in the world. Now, given that you might expect that Jessie's been at this for a very long time.

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However, this is actually a relatively new endeavor for her, as you will hear in this conversation, she basically says, I'm just a girl who loves horses, and boy did she learn how to pursue her love. What I found really interesting in speaking with her is how she made the shift from running her cheese making business to attempting these grueling races.

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These are not the same thing.

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This conversation is full of nuggets of wisdom about just that topic. At the core, she values being present as one of the most important ways she shows up in the world. It makes a difference with horses, as you will hear, you will also notice how she breaks things down into smaller steps. It never seems as if she's tackling one huge thing, but instead she focuses on the steps of a lot of little things. She's also deeply cultivated her resilience and her physical strength, which I find inspiring because it shows that endurance isn't an inborn trait. It may be a little but it's also a skill that you can build. So here's Jes biography, what she says about herself.

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Jesse Dowling founded and ran an award winning sheep and goat dairy and farmstead Creamery named fuzzy udder Creamery, and made cheese from sheep, goat and cow's milk for 13 years in mid Coast Maine, after 17 years in the dairy industry, she decided to make a huge change and pursue her true passion, endurance riding, training horses and helping others connect with horses. She She sold her cheese business at the end of May, and decided to celebrate by riding in the 2024 Tevis cup. Jessie also trained with Stevie Delahunt leading up to riding and completing the 2023 Mongol derby. In the end, I will say Jessie is making life choices that support her in living the full life that she loves and that she chooses. We could all use a little more of that, couldn't we? I hope you enjoy this podcast with Jesse Dowling.

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Jesse Dowling, welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you.

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I am so excited to talk to you too. Actually, as we were getting ready to record, we're both in rooms with our dogs beside us, and you have more than one. I've got one. Some of the some of our work has been in working with the animals to get them settled down. And it and it dawned on me, as you were elegantly managing your dogs, that there is a mindset and a skill to going with the flow that often is in contrast to us trying to get things done. And you are just starting your second business, and people will have heard in the introduction that you've just recently sold your cheese making business of 17 years. So you were in a get things done world, and yet you're beautifully glowing with the flow, with the animals. So tell me, how have you learned to do that in such an elegant way?

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Oh, thank I appreciate the reflection? Well, yeah, I think that I kind of inadvertently, I've been in the sheep and goat dairy and cheese making business, making sheep goat and cow's milk cheese for the past 17 years, but I ran my business for just 12. Just want to clarify that. But was in the industry for that long, and, yeah, I never really thought about how much I was learning just working with animals every day, day in and day out, and how much I had learned, but when I started on my horse training journey, everything started to click More, and I realized that that I did actually gain a lot from just being with animals every day, all day. So I definitely, definitely feel like just spending time with animals.

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You start to learn how to manage them in a in a calm way. Yeah.

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And one of the, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead. One of the first things I was taught at the first sheep dairy I worked at in 2007 was, if the animals are making you upset, you're doing something wrong. Mm. Uh,

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so if the animals are making you upset, you're doing something wrong. Now, how do you, how do you get yourself out of that quandary? Because I know sometimes when I feel like I'm doing something wrong, I can spiral into making things worse, trying to get myself out of it.

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Well, I

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guess for taking, taking, like any, any type of you know that it's never the horse's fault. It's never the dog's fault. You know, it's us looking at, you know, it's usually help, you know, helping people with people problems, not helping people with horse problems. You know, it's like the animal is doing what the animal does. And if we are reacting to that, then that means that there's something about our management or our design or our expectations that is perhaps not matching our reality. So that's that's always how I bring all my work with animals, whether it's on the sheep and goat dairy, which I no longer do, but I still have some goats, and then I have some horses, and I'm just starting a small training business, but just kind of, kind of seeing where we're really at, and looking at what animal do we have today, and and always trying to come from a from a clear mind, instead of expectations on what I want to do or or what I think the animal should be doing.

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So from a clear mind, can you say more about that, because I've had an epiphany in the last few days with one of my business coaching clients, who's also a horse person, who has been working on clearing her mind, and noted that she was dramatically more effective with her horse. And I had this I don't know why it's taken me this long to make this direct thought, and maybe I've had it before, and I just think it's a new one, but it's like, oh, you know when, when we're beating ourselves up all that self talk, the horses hear that. They know it. They do. They feel it. And so a clear mind means you can have clear communication. So how have you learned how to clear your mind, because I've actually witnessed it. We rode together in June and at Stevie's place.

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We'll talk about that in a bit.

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But I love seeing that have a very clear mind.

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I think the best teachers for me are horses, because in order to have a good time with the horses, being present is the number one thing that will help us. So, you know, I do, I do certain things to get myself ready for short having having a daily yoga practice and trying to exercise regularly. I picked up running when I was training for the MongoDB after a 20 year hiatus, and that has really changed my life. I definitely wasn't always this way. I was very reactive and was really struggling running a business with eight employees, but as I started down my horsemanship journey of learning how to connect with my horses in a more, you know, just to slow her away, it's kind of changed everything about my focus and and, you know, it kind of happened naturally in some ways, just over the years working with the sheep and goat dairy. But it also, you know, in the last few years, has been more intentional about, yeah, just really relishing and being present and how important that is, and how the our time and our presence is all is the most precious gift we have to offer anyone and and to present is, is what the dogs. I have six dogs right now, and each one of them would really like me to be present with them and give them my time every day.

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So I try, even if it's little, just to give each one of them some individual attention. And then that means a lot

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your full presence,

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yeah, does

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not even a moment where you because I know I've, I've been on a journey where it was very difficult for me to be present, and I was very reactive and very goal driven and very annoyed with people who did not line up with my goals and so forth. And it's hard to get there. But do you remember a first moment where you experienced presence that made you want more of it,

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trying to think to a specific moment,

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I think, or it could be any it doesn't have to be the first moment, because who would ever know anyway, but just, you know that transition. Because I can imagine, as people might listen to this, that are seeking presence. It's, it's one of those things that you know it when you have it, but it's hard to grab. It's like that butterfly, yeah, right, Chase. I

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can think of it actually. Um, so one of the first things I did that changed everything for me on my horsemanship journey was I took a Chris Lombard. He's a local trainer in my State of Maine, a local trainer, and he has a connecting with horses workshops, like a three day workshop. I brought my horse, Maggie, who I had trained myself, but very slowly and didn't really know what I was doing. I worked a little bit with some help, but we had a lot of time to, like, sit quiet with the horse and meditate. And in that time, it was the first time I really saw. Her, and I realized how much she needed my attention from from that time there it was like it was more of a knowing than anything, of just like this horse has been here for me, like she was nine during the workshop. She's 13 now, and there was a moment where I just felt like she she had been waiting for me to to become present, and then our relationship has changed so much since then. I don't know if I can really give it the words it needs, but it's like as if she had always been wanting my attention and I had been just like, focused on my business and and been focused on everything else external. And you know, I would go and I would groom her and brush her and ride her, but it was never, it was never in the way that things are now where, yeah, not really spending that time and having no expectations of what we're doing, of just being

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and it's almost as if she was looking at she going, now, there you are,

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yes, yes, and she needed me, and I didn't even realize it, and I and, I mean, she's the most amazing part. I'm going to cry

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about it, because I just love I know, I'm sitting here tearing up hearing, yeah, it's just,

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you know, and I have had these visions, okay, this is, this is like, there was a time where my Creamery was in another place. I had started my Creamery in one town with a farm partner, and things had it was two years into my business, and things went really badly, and I had to leave and set up in another place. And I had an, like, a little bit of a therapist, but she was a little bit more Woo, and we did this kind of exercise where she kind of, like leaned me in different directions, and I was, like, using, she was asking questions, and like, using my body movement to decide what I wanted. And all I remember this was like 1012, years ago, I could see Maggie's face, and it was about, like, do I want to keep animals at this point? And this is like my life was kind of falling apart. Then I was losing one farm and had to, you know, scramble and do another thing. And even though that was like 1213, years ago, I knew like her, her, her image in my mind, was there, and I didn't really connect into it until like 10 years later that she was asking then for me to be present. And I ended up resetting up a new farm in another town and starting my business over. And Maggie and and her sister Sadie were on the side for years. But it wasn't until, wasn't until that that workshop, many years later, that I realized that she had been waiting for me that whole time, the whole time. Yeah, and now my I'm setting my life intentions to she's part of it. So yeah, yeah. I don't know if I'm doing this justice, but oh

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no, I feel like you are.

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It's, I mean, and I don't know what justice is for a story like this, but you're not missing your life anymore. No,

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no. But I was for a long time just focused on results and focused on trying to make a business that doesn't have a high margin of, you know, it's, you know, dairy is a grueling industry, and there's not a lot of room for success.

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You know, you have to really be very, you have to be really, it's a lot of work, and

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it's a low margin business, that's a lot of work,

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exactly, and you can make it work. And I did, and I'm really grateful that I was able to sell it, but I'm really excited to live my life in a different pace now, yeah,

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well, one of the other things that struck me, though, and I've had this question floating around in my mind, around you and your ability for endurance, is the resilience that you have. And so just like, I feel like there's a whole story of what it took for you to reset up your farm when things didn't go well, and I'm just picking up on what I just heard you say. But like, what did it take from you to even though you weren't being present then yet Maggie was waiting on you? Yeah, yeah, to turn around and like, get take a blow. That means that you have to actually go to another city and another town or another town and start your business over. What did you draw on? How did you cultivate the resilience and strength to do that? Because my guess is a lot, if not, most people would just throw their hands up and say, Well, that wasn't for me. Yeah,

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I guess I am not. I've never been one to be a quitter.

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That's definitely, I mean, maybe it's the stubbornness. It's one of those things where you have, you have two sides of strength.

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Is your weakness, right? Like being really stubborn, you know, it can be your blessing. It can also, you know, not sometimes it's hard to have the humility to know that the way you're going isn't the right direction, but in but in that case, I think with farming, I I just have that sheer perseverance and that drive and that belief that being part of the local food scene and producing food and creating a jobs. People and trying to do things ethically. I had a conviction and a passion that I believed in, and I think that's the trick for me, is that, you know, for many years, I believe that farming was my calling and what I was supposed to be doing, and so that's what I got up in the morning, and I was excited to do it. And, you know, while I was in the cheese making world, I was also the president of the main cheese Guild, and I was building the main cheese industry, and that's just how I am, like, if I get into something, I'm going to get really into it, and I'm going to put everything into it. But during the pandemic, there weren't as many events, and I stopped working as the president for the cheese Guild, and I had more time with my horses. So then that's where, that's where everything shifted. Was that that time, but I think I'm just the kind of person that's going to put my whole self into whatever I'm doing, because I can only do things I really believe in.

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Yeah, and it sounds like that was a calling for you, which is a really high level calling, because I for one, and I know I'm not alone. Are. I'm concerned about our food system, and there's a lot of pressure to have food be cheap, and yet, if you look at what it takes to produce our food, it's not simple, and it's like the downward pressure on prices is creating even less and less nutritious food. Oh, exactly.

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And so for the sake of money, we're trying to to make ourselves sick, basically,

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yeah, and it doesn't work. You know, I the farmers, they get into it because they believe in what they're doing.

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You know, some, some of them are born into it, but ones like me that kind of came into farming after college because we want to make the world a better place.

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And we're like, Well, growing local food is the way to do it, because we can feed people, and this is a way that we can directly make a difference, and that was kind of my whole goal.

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But the problem is, is that you're absolutely right in order to create a product, to grow a fruit or a vegetable or raise an animal in a loving, humane and kind way that is good to the earth and to the people that are working costs more money than the average consumer is going to want to pay. And yeah, it's an it's a whole thought of externalized costs. You know, with any with any industry, if you externalize your costs, that's how you're going to make things profitable. But the problem is, is that who is hurting our environment, our workers, our farmers, and the mental health strains on farmers is something that people don't talk about. And that's kind of that the mental health aspect is what kind of got me into seeking the horse world and seeking the adventure of the Mongol derby.

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Yeah, and we're gonna, we're gonna talk at length about that here shortly, but I can identify just in a small way, because we have chickens, and you know, the grocery store eggs are, what, $3 a dozen, unless you get the high end organic ones around here, most people for their organic eggs charge $6 a dozen. $5 a dozen. Sorry, but when I look at my costs, and especially just just the cost of what it what we had to build to keep the chickens from getting eaten every day by foxes and raccoons and so forth, I will never make money in ever.

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There's no way there's any profit at a small scale.

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No and, and that was kind of the experiment I went into the small farming experience with, was, Can I do it at a small scale and be successful and, you know, and make money and still be ethical.

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And I found that I could but at the expense of my well being, at the expense of my my mental health, because something has to give you know, if I paid my workers a good wage and I took care of my animals, well, then I was the one that was suffering.

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And I think that a lot of farmers don't look at that. You know, farmers don't take vacations, they don't pay themselves well. They're kind of the externalized cost that, you know, you go to the farmer's market and you're like, Oh, thank you farmer. And the farmer is, like, living this life of, like, basically, you know, substandard living, because that they believe in it, and they and they believe that they can't take a vacation. They can't take time for themselves. And I watch basically, a ton of miserable farmers around me, and I was like, I don't want to be this anymore.

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Oh, I can understand. I was just at the farmer's market this last week, and this is what blew me away. There's a man who's out in the field all day long, and he had on his table fresh corn, fresh tomatoes, blackberries, figs, scuppernongs, you know. So I'm picking out my stuff. And I had, I bought more than I had stuffed the cash in my pocket, so I pulled out and I said, Oh, I am a couple dollars short. And he goes, Don't worry about it. And I'm like, Oh, no. He said, No, next time, you don't worry. And he was I said, No, I'll put some of these tomatoes back. No, you you take them. And literally, all I had to do was go to my car and get more cash. But he was not going to have it that I was going to tell him I was going to get, give and get more cash. So I just left, and then came back, and I brought him more than I would have paid him, because this guy is working so hard. And for all the stuff, I brought home a lot of calories, of food.

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And. It was less, still, less than $20

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Yeah, yeah.

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I'm thinking, how's he making a living?

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You know, it, I mean, that's a whole other podcast of how you how that there's so much to that. There's so much but, but I think the short of it is that you are not paying the full cost and some something, something is being, you know, it's either the environment, it's the workers, or it's the people and and, or the animals, and that's some something gives somewhere there, there's

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just something. You're extracting something in order to do it, make it work exactly. I mean, that is an advantage of something, the

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nature of capitalism, and it works well when you're working with inanimate things that are not alive. You know that that seems to work well in the factory model. But when you're talking about, you know, living beings, you know that's that's a tough one.

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Not, not okay, not okay.

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You know, when I first started working with Bruce Anderson, he said something along the lines, and this was his complaint with the horse world is in general, was that people are taking something that is less and using it to enrich themselves, rather than taking something that is less and lifting it up. Yeah, and I don't think he means less like less equal, but that you perceive as less? Yes, I can take advantage of this animal.

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And you know, because the animal is depending on me for food or whatever it kind of has to go along. And so his, yeah, I say his big complaint in the world is that we are taking something that is less and using it to enrich ourselves,

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yeah, and I would rather see at least the animals as my partners, but also the natural world, you know, the whole thing, yeah, the whole thing,

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you know, there was, there was a time when, like, I was, you know, I could kill bugs. I could not worry about cutting down trees and so forth. And I don't do very well with either one. Now, bugs get moved out of my house unless it's a swarm advance, and I can't really move those. That's a different game.

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But that's that hadn't happened much so, so you mentioned the Mongol derby. It finished, what?

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A week ago,

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when we're this year's just finished. A few days ago,

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just recorded I was following it on Facebook, so I saw your comments. You talked about how you were so addicted to the race, you probably were more addicted to me, but I've never been so interested in it as I was this year. I followed, you know, I was follow. I've learned in the last year, I've learned how to follow dots on endurance races. Man, so many of the stories. So first of all, before we even start talking about the Mongol Derby, for those who are listening and don't know what it is, can you describe the Mongol derby?

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Sure. So it's, it's, uh, tagged as the world's longest horse race. It's set over 1000 kilometers in Mongolia, the Mongolian step riding Mongolian horses. So 1000 kilometers is about 621 miles for folks in the US. And you're riding 29 different Mongolian horses, about 25 miles each. And you're using the endurance rules of vetting in as you come into each horse station, you have to make sure that your horse's part rate comes down to below 56 beats per minute. Animal Welfare is seen as a really high, high important part of the race, but you're self navigating with a handheld GPS and choosing your own adventure kind of along that way and staying with Mongolian herding families. So it's kind of like the ultimate modern day adventure at kind of recreating Genghis Khan's ancient postal route.

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That's that was one of the things that was interesting to me, and I didn't, I didn't know till I met you in June, when you talked about the Genghis Khan postal route, is that this is how they used to get information in Mongolia. We know what the Pony Express in America is exactly but it was started many times before, many years before.

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I don't know what era did he live in? I'm

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11. I think it was 11th century. Yeah, century and

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and horses. There I read a fiction book called she who rides horses, by Sarah Virginia Barnes, I don't and she was actually on my podcast, and it's set many years ago in the I think it's the Mongolian step.

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It's a historical fiction about how it might have been that people first started riding horses. Oh, cool. And so it's possible she's a historian, so she's not making stuff up around the history part that that is where horse riding started, in the first place, where humans first said to these animals, Hey, you want a partner?

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Yeah, I I think that's a fascinating topic. I think the first recorded horse riding was in Kazakhstan, but that's just next. Or to Mongolia? Yeah, yeah. I envision the domestication of dogs and horses as being more of a mutual partnership than in a dominating way that we see a lot of times.

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Yes, well, especially in today's world. But, but back to Mongolia. So when did you find out about the race. What made you decide that you wanted to do this thing, and then I wanted how you prepared as well. But let's just start talking about some of that story and how you got there.

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Okay, so I have to give you, like, a little bit of the backstory of, like, why I would be seeking to do something so extreme in 2021 I'd learned how to make cheese from another farm, and worked there for five years called Appleton Creamery.

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And on that farm my mentor so years later, my mentor is trying to train another younger cheese maker to to take over for her as she is needing to retire. And I got a call in 2021 in July that the woman that was going to be taking over that farm had committed suicide, and I had to go and pick up all the goats on that farm and bring them to my farm that week. And that included two extra livestock Guardian dogs in addition to the four I already had. So it was very life changing, and it made me realize very quickly a lot of things about what I was doing and what life we were leading.

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And then there was another cheesemaker suicide, not even 18 months later, in the same town.

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So it just really hit me like a ton of bricks that the industry that I was in was not healthy and to have you know, for anyone who's dealt with suicide in their their community, you will know that it the giant hole is ripped into your, into the web of your, of your life. And it just it made me look at life a lot differently. And it was also during the pandemic. So I had had more time with my horses than I had normally had. And so the combination of asking myself the big questions of, do I want to end up where I can't use my hands because of arthritis, because I'm in my 70s and I can't keep milking animals? Or do I want to end up, you know, where I've reached my point where I just can't do this anymore, and as I spent more time with horses, I stumbled upon Surprise, surprise, the work Schiller's journey on podcast. And on that podcast, I heard Stevie Delahunt, in her April interview, talk about training people for the Mongol derby. And, you know, I had heard it mentioned before about the Mongol Derby, and I was like, that's for professional riders. And I am not a professional writer. I am a backyard trail rider. I like horses. I, you know, rude as a kid, and slowly train my own horses, and I just love horses.

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Never did I think that the MongoDB would be for me, but when I heard that Stevie had boot camps and that you could sign up for them, I thought I could just do that. And so I signed up for the boot camp. And then I started finding friends in the area, older folks that had been doing endurance in Maine, and started riding with them. And as I did that, I decided I would apply for the Mongol Derby, and I rode my first limited distance, 30 mile ride, and it was so much fun on my horse, Maggie. And then the next day, I got an interview from candy, who works for the Mongol Derby, and she said I was in so that was in 2022 I ended up at my first boot camp with Stevie in August of 2022 and lo and behold, I couldn't believe it, but work Shiller was actually at my boot camp. And that just felt like one of those things, like I had been listening to that podcast and kind of exploring the books that were recommended, and I just felt like, Huh, I'm like things are going in the right direction, things are moving.

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And as I make new decisions, things kind of open up for me.

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And here I am with people that I really admire and respect, and I'm learning alongside them. It just felt like I felt like manifestation was working in my life, and that and that I was going in a direction that felt right. So that was kind of the beginning of, of, what, of my journey towards the Mongo Derby,

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that that's incredible.

00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:10.019
How shocked were you to see Warwick there after you'd been listening to his podcast?

00:29:10.259 --> 00:30:42.459
I just with all the things, especially with, I can't remember who said, the attention intention, no tension of manifest a price. Yeah, I just felt like that. Okay, this is the way, and I'm going to just keep vibing on this. And so I use that as my mantra for the rest of the year, and I just followed, you know, I ended up training with Martin black in November of that year because I knew I needed to work on my horsemanship skills, and I went, I went back to train with Stevie several more times. Ended up doing several races with her. I ended up fundraising for a therapeutic riding place that had a program working on ending or drawing attention to veteran suicide in Chicago. They're called brave hearts riding and their trail to zero ride they do in different cities all over the country. I was fundraising for them, so I visited them. And Martin black did a workshop for them there, and I got to, I got to shadow and do it with them, and it was amazing. So I just kind of kept, kept seeing where the where the trail led me. And I just got to do a lot of amazing things on my journey to train, train for the derby. And I feel like through that, it really changed my life. I also was seeing a polyvagal therapist at the time, because I was really looking at my own nervous system, and I was, you know, I was in that state of fight, specifically, fight for a really long time. But this kind of putting together all the pieces of my horsemanship journey and training for the Mongol Derby, I started to really be able to come into the president more and things have really changed.

00:30:42.700 --> 00:31:27.019
Yeah, well, I'm sure that absolutely helped, because our nervous systems sort of hijack us sometimes, and if we don't understand that, it's our nervous system sort of operating in a protective mode, we think it's reality. And we've actually, you know, the we were talking earlier about the way sort of society works. It's kind of designed to hijack our service nervous systems for the sake of, you know, what we're supposed to contribute to society. I know when I worked in banking, pretty much the message was, hey, we're going to pay you really well as long as you do what we want you to do, and we're going to pretend like we want you to give us good ideas, but you mostly have to go along.

00:31:23.779 --> 00:31:30.920
And if you won't do that, don't worry, we'll find somebody else.

00:31:27.019 --> 00:31:41.740
And you might, you know, the the unsaid thing was, and you might end up on the street because this was a good job and you should have kept it Yeah, and that's just hijacking the nervous system saying, Hey, keep this person in fight, flight or freeze, and then do whatever

00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:44.140
we want them to do.

00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:46.960
Yeah, and it, and it's so easy to unconsciously be in those states and not even realize it.

00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:56.980
And I think what really going to the polyvagal therapist really helped me was just being able to take a moment to be like, what state Am I in right now? Am I reactive like, what you know?

00:31:56.980 --> 00:32:07.319
And if I know, if I find myself getting upset or angry at people, I find that it's like because I'm in that, you know, that sympathetic state, and I need to do something to reset myself. Yeah,

00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:28.220
before we hear, I want to hear about the Derby, of course, but I want, I would love to hear because I think this is going to be relevant, because it probably had lots of opportunities on the derby. Do you have a good way to quickly reset yourself. Like, what is your what is your go to strategy to when you recognize you're in a reactive state, bring yourself back to center.

00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:28.819
Well,

00:32:28.818 --> 00:32:57.999
sometimes it's just time. Like, if I'm starting like, I find that I get the sometimes the worst things are at the end of the day, when I'm tired and I realize, you know, I'm spiraling out. Everything seems like it's, you know, everything seems wrong, you know. And I all the self doubt comes in, and I'm like, you know, if I just go to bed right now and stop, you know, take a break. So as I'm walking away, instead of, you know, it's easy as a stubborn person to be like, I have to finish. I have to do this, you know. And it's like, maybe just take some space. Take some time. Take a deep breath.

00:32:57.999 --> 00:32:58.239
That's

00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:08.759
a one I know. I know. I think it might have been Anne Lamont that said, you know, when you're feeling like that, sometimes it helps just to go make yourself a sandwich. Yeah,

00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:12.059
maybe you're hungry. I get angry, you know? And it could be

00:33:12.298 --> 00:33:29.719
because, if we're what I know for sure is when I am full, meaning that I am fed, I'm rested, I have a sense of well being. My decisions are very, very different than when I'm drained and pushing myself too far.

00:33:30.618 --> 00:33:47.499
And the other place I get the most like, good energy from is just spending time with my animals. Like, if I just go and sit with one of my dogs and just like, just be with them, that can really change things for me, for my day, or just go out to the pasture and just like, hang out with Sadie, you know, just,

00:33:49.660 --> 00:34:08.579
yeah, that's amazing. So So after you how many times did you train, or what was the longest ride you did before you showed up in Mongolia? Tell me about getting ready for because this is 1000 kilometers. You know, going from 30 miles to 1000 kilometers is a pretty big jump.

00:34:08.699 --> 00:34:17.878
Yeah. So, yeah. So the first, the first race I did, was just 30 miles. And then in the spring, no, and then the fall, I bought, I loved Arabian so much.

00:34:15.119 --> 00:35:37.099
After riding with Stevie, I bought a race brain Arabian that was too much horse for his owner to train on. His name's Jelly Bean, and I love him. Was one of my favorite spur of the decisions I made. I was in the airplane coming back from from my first boot camp in August of 2022 on the phone with a woman in New York who had an Arabian she was trying to find a home for. And I just, you know, decided to go down the next week and get him, and I'm really happy I did. So I trained him, got him conditioned for a 30 mile in the fall, and then in the spring, I flew back out to Oregon, and I rode Alexander Hamilton, who, oh, wow, one of the amazing horses of Stevie's team, in a 75 mile ride, and for the grizzly mountain ride in April. Now, and that was my first long ride. And then we did another one in May. I attempted the Marion Anna 100 mile ride and and I was on Alexander again, but we only made it to my own 90 because he was having a hard time pulling pulsing down with his heart rate. So he was a few beats per minute higher than the required amount. I can't remember if it was 56 or 50 or 60 at this particular ride, but we got pulled at mile 90. But I figured, you know, I had gone 75 miles in one day, 90 miles another day. The average day on the derby was about 6575 miles.

00:35:32.239 --> 00:36:08.938
So for my goal, I had, I was fine, because I was like, Okay, I know what it's like to do whole day of the derby. So I've got one out of 10. You know, it's that, yeah. And the longest journey started by the first step, right? So, you know, I got the first day down. And then right before I left, about two weeks before, I left for Mongolia in 2023 for the Derby, I did a two day 30 miles. I rode Maggie on the first day, 30 miles of the firecracker ride in Maine, and then I rode jelly in on the Sunday, another 30 miles.

00:36:08.938 --> 00:36:31.219
So I kind of was like, Okay, well, that's a two day. Now I've got a two day. So, you know, I think between that and the fitness training and doing the few long rides that I had done, so at that point, I had done five endurance rides to two proper endurance and three, four, yeah, four, limited distance rides. So yeah, that that made me feel like I was ready. Yeah.

00:36:31.639 --> 00:37:10.079
Well, the so first of all, we have, in case people did not listen to my last podcast with Stevie della hunt, where she talked about Alexander Hamilton, who she just finished the Tevis cup with 100 mile race. It was her first time to actually go under the banner. And he is also, she said he did not show up for her as his alter ego, cocaine bear. So riding him is no small thing. He was, he was out with us. Alex Lewis was riding him when we were out together in June. So that's, that's a that's a lot of horse to ride. I just know him, and he's, he's fantastic, but he's a lot of horse.

00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:32.179
I love him. He's got this motor trot. I mean, the standard bred Arab cross, if I would definitely snap one up if one was available, because they are nice. They're just so strong and and the standard bread makes, well, it's funny with Alex, you'd think it makes them more like even headed, but maybe, maybe not with Alex, but normally, I think it would help with the temperament the standard bread, yeah, yeah,

00:37:32.179 --> 00:38:02.340
exactly. So, so that all that's great. Now, what you haven't talked about, though, in terms of the preparation, you've got sort of some of the length and the endurance in place, but those Mongolian horses are not the same as our horses. In other words, they're they're not like I've watched this, I've watched a lot of videos, and sometimes they buck and people come off and they're hard to get on. And from what I can tell, once you get into on and start going, you kind of need to keep going.

00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:15.059
There's not a lot of, like, arena work here where we're like, well, we're going to trot for a minute, and then we're going to stop, and then we're going to do some circles, and then we're going to stop up, and then we're going to, it's like, you get on and you flat out go.

00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:16.500
So just grab until you go to that. Yeah.

00:38:16.498 --> 00:38:32.719
So actually, I did a lot for that. So the first thing I did was I went out and rode with Martin black, and in the first four minutes, a four year old quarter horse, thorbred Cross named Trento, taught me very, very clearly that pulling on horses faces was a bad idea.

00:38:29.298 --> 00:38:39.559
He bucked me off right away. And from then on, I realized that I needed to stop being such a, you know, traditional English rider, and get off the horse's face.

00:38:39.559 --> 00:39:00.759
Let the horse basically get out of the way the horse. So that was really helpful, learning a different way of communicating than just direct contact. So that was one and then the other thing is, Stevie recommended that I go and train with her trainer. So she trained with Solange Ellis at Horse Haven stables in Ohio when she was training for the Mongol derby.

00:39:00.878 --> 00:39:08.878
And so I went and did a three day clinic with her, and her part her co instructor came and we worked on my rider position.

00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:33.498
And so, you know, a lot of a lot of ways to not fall off a horse that's bucking is in leaning back. You know, one of the things that salon says, like, Well, what a roto rodeo riders do? They lean back. And, you know, you're most likely to fall off the horse going over the shoulder. And the biggest, you know, besides being bucked off in the Mongol Derby, the other big danger is the Marmot holes.

00:39:28.878 --> 00:40:12.778
But what I found after, you know, once I got there, was that if you're if you have a good position, and your pelvis is not if you're not doing the Duck Butt, but your foot pelvis is flipped the other way, and you're able to sit back. The horse can go down on its front legs into the Marmon hole, and it's able to lift itself up and keep going, if you're not impeding its movement by sitting over its shoulder. So those are the most important things. Was just changing how I rode, and now, actually, I was explaining to someone who was a bit more of a nervous rider the other. Day that I was working with about what I do when a horse is kind of getting up like that, and, you know, getting a little bit hard to ride is I kind of go through a body scan. I'm like, okay, are my heels down? Yes.

00:40:09.418 --> 00:40:19.079
Check, alright. Well, where's my pelvis? Am I? Am I? Am I in a way where I can be sitting back, okay, you know, am I breathing?

00:40:15.478 --> 00:40:25.518
Okay, check, I'm breathing right? My shoulders back. Check, alright. So I kind of have this, I kind of train my body to go into this kind of body scan.

00:40:25.518 --> 00:40:42.579
Anytime I feel like the horse is going up and getting up in energy, like I am going to bring myself down and I'm going to think through, where's my body, and that's kind of how I go through anytime where the horse is is getting more energy than I feel that I'm, you know, starting to feel a little bit uncomfortable. Then I go through, where's my body? Okay?

00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:45.338
Because it's really hard to fall off if you're in the right position.

00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:59.019
That's actually really good to know. I've actually had this happen. I I've had a couple of horses trip with me, and being back makes all the difference. They can come right back up if you're not on their shoulders Exactly.

00:40:59.019 --> 00:41:14.400
And it's something that, you know, it's a small thing, but I basically, what I did was I, I trained my muscle memory to go there, so anytime I get scared, instead of going to the fetal position, which more, that's what we normally do, I train myself to do that other position. And that's, that's made up. Yeah, you

00:41:14.398 --> 00:41:53.018
know that? What's funny? I think I've done the same thing, but, but I sort of learned that from flying, because, interestingly enough, it's the opposite in flying if you, if you're, if you're playing stalls, their air is no longer going over the wings, and the automatic reaction is to pull back. But what you actually have to do is put the nose down so that you can start getting that air back over the wings, and then you recover from the stall that way. And sometimes you have to do that quite close to the ground, but if you don't, you're going to pancake into the ground. So you develop new muscle memory, just like you just described. You have to find you have to kind of make the right thing to do become your autopilot.

00:41:53.260 --> 00:41:58.480
Yes, exactly. That's what it is. Yeah, mine sounds so,

00:42:01.539 --> 00:42:23.719
so you got you kind of checked all the boxes then, because you worked on your rider position, you worked on your endurance, you worked on now, let me ask a question as what I consider myself still a feral, fairly newbie rider with a with a Mongolian horse, if you do need to stop, is there a way to stop them, and can you do it?

00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:29.059
Especially with that being on their face? I don't know what they're what they're doing, what's something like that, but how do you do it? Still use the

00:42:29.059 --> 00:43:44.800
reins. It's just that, you know, I think all horses appreciate it if you're not up in their face all the time, yeah, but so, like, it's all about strategy. So when you leave a horse station, the horse is going to be really fresh, and this is the way it's going to be with any young horse. And they're going to if you can get them to go in the direction that you want to go like hopefully it's going towards the next horse station. Let them get that energy out if they want to gallop, let them go. Let them go whatever speed and and to another angle. It's really important to not ask them to go at a faster speed than what they're offering, because that's going to mean they're going to mean they're going to poop out later. Yeah, so let them go whatever speed they want to go so that that's like that out gallop. Let them do that, but after about a few miles, sometimes 10 miles, maybe more, with some horses, so you gotta stop and take a pee break. Once they've kind of gotten their initial fire out of the way, and they've kind of run it through, then you can be like, Okay, you can, you know, give them a little pressure on the reins. We can talk, yeah, and it's fine, you know, most of the time if I needed to stop into the bathroom, because, you know, some of the food there made you have to go a little bit faster than normal, I was able to get off and get back on. And no problem. But if you try to get off before they've run their kind of initial energy course out. That's when you can have trouble.

00:43:46.780 --> 00:44:00.719
Yeah, I Well, that was one of the things I was thinking about. Was, how, how do we, how do we take care of our bathroom needs, especially when you're eating unusual food that could cause unusual reactions in the gut. It

00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:06.059
is, you know, the step toilet is vast, but there's, you know, you can go anywhere.

00:44:03.659 --> 00:44:06.059
There's no you hold on

00:44:06.059 --> 00:44:14.699
to your horse while you're going to the bathroom. I mean, I know this sounds like a like a personal question, but think about what I want. I

00:44:14.699 --> 00:44:34.760
have to say that disposable, like biodegradable wet wipes, were one of my favorite gear choices, because you have to spend. You only get five kilograms of gear on this trip, and you have to. I basically spent a year trying to figure out what is the perfect year to bring. But one of the things I learned on the Academy, which was like a training before going to the race, was how important wet wipes were. So,

00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:39.679
yeah, oh, I can't even imagine how, how you could do it without that.

00:44:40.219 --> 00:45:14.519
Yeah, that wouldn't be fun, but Yeah, as long as your horse was tired enough, it was not a problem to get off and on again. But if you like, for example, on day four, I was riding with another rider, Matt, and it was starting to rain, and he was like, I need to stop and put my rain jacket on because I was really wet last night, and I don't want to get wet again. And we were. Both on pretty feisty, fresh galloping horses right out of the horse station only a few minutes. And so we pulled our horses back, and I chose to stay on, because I knew this horse was fresh and I was not getting on. He got off. Took forever to put his rain pants on, and he's

00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:18.780
Is he trying to put his rain pants on while holding his horse? Yes. And

00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:42.099
then as soon as he goes to get on his horse. His horse gets away from him and runs back to the station, and then I'm by myself, and I have to ride on because he is going back to find his hearts. Yeah, he has to walk back. But that's an important lesson of, you know, don't ask the horse to stop before they have run out of some energy, because then you're just going to end up with a lot of energy, and you're on the ground, and it's gonna be really hard to get back on

00:45:42.099 --> 00:45:47.980
so now you're out there in a storm by yourself. Yup, say more about how that went.

00:45:48.340 --> 00:46:03.960
Oh, well, actually, it ended up pretty cool. So I had originally rode out with Lucy and Matt from this is from horse STATION 11 on day four, and Lucy had gotten bucked off by her horse, and she had to go back, like, right out of the station.

00:46:04.619 --> 00:47:08.880
So anyways, I'm, like, riding along, it's raining, and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to go find a place to camp. It's like, 5:30pm and I needed to go find a place to camp for the night, which meant, like, meeting a random Mongolian family in a gare, which is a Mongolian, you're out on the step and asking them if I can stay, which, luckily, in step culture, it's they like guests, and they, they always say, yes, it's part of, part of the step culture to be have lots of hospitality. But luckily, coming up behind me was Lucy galloping up on her horse, and she was like, Hey, do you want to find a place to camp? And I was like, I sure do. So I only had in that, in that situation, I only had, you know, maybe 20 minutes where I was alone right before the end of the day, and then the sun came out, and there was rainbows, and we were splashing through the puddles, and we ended up finding, like a beautiful little little gear in the swamp. There was like a young family with puppies, and we learned we got to watch the mom milk a cow, and they helped us put the horses on the line.

00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:29.659
And then inside the gear, we were like, playing on Google Translate, trying to, like, exchange information. And we played the ankle bone game, which is the Mongolian game that they showed us, and they had little toads in that gear that were living under the stove, and the family was like pointing and laughing at the toads. And so I like that. We stayed in a swamp with stove toads that night.

00:47:30.380 --> 00:47:30.619
That

00:47:30.619 --> 00:47:40.039
is so cool. Does it? Does it ever happen that anybody can't find a gear and has to stop and camp out, oh, in the open, I guess, because you're not carrying a tent? Or how does

00:47:40.039 --> 00:48:22.519
that work? So I can tell you the story of the next night. On day five, I I had ridden out. There was four Pakistani riders I've been riding with all day, and they're they're amazing. They ride really fast, and then they'll, like, gallop and walk, and they're really fun. They sometimes have like, a stereo, like playing music. They were just having a great time. And I rode with them. And then at some point, I I drove a horse at the end of the day, and I lost them in the mountains. I'm not sure they went a different way, and I was by myself. And of course, it's again, 5pm and by myself in the mountains, and a rainstorm is coming in, and I'm like, okay, the night before take getting off to take put on rain gear was a bad idea. So I was like, This horse is calm. I'm going to put the rain gear on while I'm on the horse. So well.

00:48:22.579 --> 00:48:28.699
I came off the horse, but I was still holding on to him, but I could not get back on and in front of me was a sea of grass.

00:48:28.699 --> 00:49:00.579
There was no gears, no trees, nothing, just grass. Four miles, and I was trying to head towards the waterhole so I could camp there for the night, because if you found a waterhole, they'll let you camp the race directors, yeah, 7pm and a riding hours came, came around, and I took the tack off my horse. I hobbled him, messaged the headquarter saying, Hey, I couldn't find a place to camp, but here I am with my horse. I was eating some fried meat patties called horseshore, which is like a local food that I had stuff.

00:48:58.059 --> 00:49:31.460
They, they, they have those at the horse stations, and I had stuff in my pocket, since I was eating my horse short and I was sitting there watching my horse graze, and I was like, You know what, I'm happy I could, I could totally camp here. This would be great. The grass was kind of wet from the dew, so I thought, you know, or the rain. So I was like, maybe they'll let me camp here. The vet came and they said, You can't camp here. So they helped me get back on my horse, and we they helped me find a gear and a family where I could tie my horse up for the night I would graze him, and the time up, but I had a penalty the next day. Yeah.

00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:46.659
So I assume that every horror place you go and you know, just stay with somebody the gears, they have the ability to handle your horse like they can. They have a place to tie up the horse, something to feed the horse.

00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:58.659
Sometimes there'll be a horse line, which is like the normal way that Mongolians have their horses tied. All the horses are trained to stand the tide. Sometimes they will have a round pen. They can put the horse in the round pen, but you can tie them to the round pen.

00:49:56.259 --> 00:50:01.438
And then that one family in the swamp, they just probably go.

00:49:58.659 --> 00:50:03.719
Low line on the ground, and the horses could graze all night, so they always have something.

00:50:04.139 --> 00:50:04.498
Yeah,

00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:12.659
and do the horses, I guess you have to also feed them during during the day or or do they get fed in between? Because you're only riding them for 25 miles

00:50:12.659 --> 00:51:12.900
or so, so the only time you're really focused on their feeding, because when you, when you, you're, you're picking the horses out of a a lottery, like a little basket with numbers in it at random. You get a horse, and then you ride the horse, you know, first the vet checks the horse, make sure that the horse is in good shape to try it out, and then you take the horse back at the next station, the vet checks the horse out. You're required to make sure that they have had water and that, you know, their their gut sounds are good, so grazing them along the way is always good. Just like any endurance ride, we always encourage horses to eat as much as possible. So whenever you're stopped, you want the horse to graze, but it's really at night when, when you come into a place and you're not at a horse station, the horse station just give the horse back to the owner, yeah, but when you're camping out with a family, you know these families. They know nothing about the Mongolian derby. They they're just nomadic herders that are in different places. They may have never heard of the Mongol Derby, but they're hosting you and hosting you, and so you'll graze your horse for an hour in the night and an hour in the morning, and you're expected to bring that horse back to the next four station in just as good shape as you pick the horse up. Wow,

00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:34.699
do you like? I was just thinking about like, the the I'm sorry, my my thoughts are scattered. I have so many questions. But how do they how do you get them back to the owner? Because that you got them at one place and then they're going to another I'm being very like, these are the kind of questions I have, is, how do I horses back? So

00:51:34.699 --> 00:51:41.920
I watched a lot of the herders they would, they would actually herd their horses back.

00:51:37.820 --> 00:51:47.440
So I watched, I watched them round up, you know, big herds of 50 horses, and they'll just herd them right back on the step, which is beautiful to watch,

00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:52.179
on horseback, and they're just hoarding, hurting their horses, yeah, or,

00:51:52.179 --> 00:52:20.300
or sometimes on motorcycle, you know, sometimes, like, a couple horses used for the race. So then they'll come, like, if they have like, prize in the DOM horses, which is the Mongolian race horses. Sometimes those horses will be and each herder is being paid for for the horses, and the better the horse does, the more they get paid. So sometimes the prize in the DOM horses will come in a in a horse truck. So it'll be like an open air truck that you put horses in the back. It's very interesting looking from a Western perspective. But the horses do fine in them,

00:52:21.019 --> 00:52:24.019
and you're calling them nadam. Is that? Yeah, so

00:52:24.019 --> 00:52:33.320
that's the name of the racing or nadam is a festival, and it's the the traditional Mongolian sports of wrestling, archery and and horse racing.

00:52:29.780 --> 00:52:47.380
But nadam horses are known as the race horses, and when you pull a nadam horse on your your horse draw, you're going to have a horse that can gallop almost that whole wig. And if there's one reason to go to Mongolia, it's to pull those nadam horses and get to ride them that far and that fast.

00:52:48.519 --> 00:52:51.880
How hard was it for you to learn how to gallop? I'm asking that from

00:52:52.119 --> 00:53:23.599
a question. So I live in Maine, and we have a lot of rocky, muddy, Rudy, wooded footing, so we do not have good places to train, and I don't have any racing background at all, so I had never really galloped before training for the Mongol derby. I did go down to Maryland to a rehoming program called after the races for off the track thoroughbreds that is run by a Mongol Derby veteran.

00:53:19.739 --> 00:54:11.340
She did it a number of years ago, named Bonnie, and she let me ride one of her off the track thoroughbreds named Simka. And I got to do some full out gallops when I was with her. Really, it's just kind of getting over your fear of the speed, you know, because all of the tools you use to ride, you know, a can't, you know, to ride a fast trot in a two point position, or to ride a fast canter in a in that kind of position, you know, you you mostly want to be kind of a little bit over the horse, maybe standing up straight. But when you're when you're when you're galloping for for long distances, you actually want to change your position up even more. So sometimes I would be leaning back trying to use my best seat so I wasn't flopping on the horse. Sometimes I'd be standing up straight like the Mongolians do. Stevie likes to call that a frame or kind of more of a of a hunt seat, kind of two point. Yeah.

00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:31.639
Well, I I'm asking that from from having my own experience, because when I met Stevie last year at the at the work sheller podcast Summit, she somehow offhandedly said something about teaching people to gallop. And I was like, wait a minute, you can actually teach that, because I don't know why I thought it was something, you know, first of all, she acknowledged that a lot of people are afraid to do it.

00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:36.500
Hello, I was in my club, and then she said, I can teach that.

00:54:36.500 --> 00:54:43.000
And I was like, and then she set up a galloping workshop, and that's the first time I got to go ride with Stevie this year.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:45.820
Was in March. I went to her galloping workshop.

00:54:48.639 --> 00:54:50.378
I'm sorry, how was that for you?

00:54:50.619 --> 00:55:28.639
It was amazing. And actually, first of all, a couple of times when we when we actually did galloping, we just found stretches where we could gallop, right? We were in the play. Where there was, like, the volcanic rock and stuff, stuff like that. So there were just a few stretches, but she picked really good places. But she go, oh, there's a gallop. I was like, Oh, I've done this before, because there's a one of the regular horses that I ride when we when we let him go, and it's usually no more than 100 yards or so. When we have a good stretch on the, you know, on the trail, he will go into a full on Gall, and it feels different than a canner, because a canner has like a little bit of a rock.

00:55:24.380 --> 00:55:33.139
And the Gallop is actually, I've actually learned that I'm the most balanced outside of walking at the gallop. So

00:55:33.139 --> 00:55:35.420
it's a pretty it's a pretty smooth gait, right?

00:55:35.420 --> 00:55:48.878
Actually, really smooth, yeah. And when I was I got just started to train my ear to listen is, Am I hearing three beats or four? And that's how I would know, because otherwise I wouldn't know if I was in a canter or gallop until I could hear the beat. Yeah,

00:55:49.840 --> 00:55:59.980
yeah. I was in Saint Lucia about a month after that, and rode on the beach, and the guy initially was going to hold on to the horse as we went down.

00:55:56.500 --> 00:56:14.760
And I was like, I you know, him being that close to me was very uncomfortable. And I said, let me just go. And I did not expect the I thought the horse was going to do the rocking horse gate, you know, all the way to the end. And man, as soon as he let go, and I I just dropped, you know, I lowered the reins and said, Let's go. She went.

00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:40.239
And it was a full my he had to pick up my phone because it went flying. It was a but it was in a solid pocket. It wasn't like zipped but it wasn't like the back pocket, which comes out easy it. She went, and there was a part of me that was like, I need to stop this. But then I realized I can't stop this. And I just was like, well, at the end of the beach, when she starts running up onto the hill, we'll we'll be in control again,

00:56:40.778 --> 00:56:42.338
they're not going to go out forever.

00:56:42.880 --> 00:57:20.159
No, and, and I, I think I realized, and I think this is something that has to be in play with what you did at the Mongolian Derby, but I think I realized that I had some beliefs around the way things should be with horses that were interfering with my ability to be with what was happening in the moment. That makes sense and and one of my should bes was, if a horse goes into a full on gallop, I need to be able to stop it right at any moment that I decide to. And what I'm gathering is, there you're setting the conditions to say, No, I have to be able to ride through it.

00:57:20.878 --> 00:57:41.378
It's, I mean, going with the horse, especially with a horse you're only going to ride for 25 miles is a better bet. You know, if you had a lot of time with that horse, you know, say you're going to ride that horse for many days, or you're going to release that horse, you could work on the first you go with the horse, then the horse goes with you, and then you go together, kind of, yeah. But I think for the mango Derby, you going with the horse is a pretty good strategy.

00:57:42.278 --> 00:57:42.518
Well,

00:57:42.519 --> 00:58:11.039
it's their and it's their home territory, and they know that footing, and they they're used to doing this, and they know this is what they're expected to do, exactly, trust and so accepting that and not putting our judgments on that, that's back to the should be, you know, it's, it's kind of the when in Rome do as the Romans do, yes, philosophy. Now, speaking of though, being in a different place, how did you manage the language? Do they teach you different words?

00:58:11.400 --> 00:59:18.420
They give you like a little cheat sheet? But I actually so my first degree is in cultural anthropology. So when I was running, when I knew I was training for the Derby, I did everything. I was like, I'm going to read all the books, I'm going to learn all the cultural things. I'm going to take language lessons. So I found a organization out of Umbar, the capital city, that had hourly zoom sessions. So my my teacher box, Ayuna, she and I met up at 9pm eastern time every Wednesday night for a year, well over a year, and then go, Yeah, I got to go out to dinner with her and meet her in person. And that was amazing. So though my one claim to fame is that I could say the numbers that I would draw out of the the lottery for the number, and I could tell the herder directly what number I drew. I didn't have to have the interpreter tell them what number it was. So that's very cool. That was exciting. I you know, I have to say I'm not a talented language learner, so I didn't learn as much as I wish I had, but I felt good about the effort I put in, and it was fun to be able to, like, be able to say some words in Mongolian while I was there.

00:59:18.780 --> 00:59:24.380
Yeah, and I give you the cheat sheet like you said, to ask for a place to stay. Yeah.

00:59:24.378 --> 00:59:29.478
I mean, it's not an easy language. I mean, I think the cheat cheese is more like hello and thank you.

00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:34.760
So how do people do that?

00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:54.579
Because this is, again, you're hearing kind of this kind of things. I worry about, but it would, my fear would be, I would not be asking the right thing, and I would be asking something stupid or whatever, or they'd turn me down. Yeah, right on. Or be, you know, getting a vet penalty or whatever. How? How do you navigate those little socially awkward moments of, can I stay at your house? You've never met me before.

00:59:54.699 --> 01:00:36.559
It's awkward and weird, and, you know, sometimes they'll call a family member. And Ulaanbaatar that speaks some English, and you'll talk on the phone to some random relative, or you'll just use hand signals or try to point to some paper. I had a lot of cheat sheet, kind of, like, words I had saved on my phone, and then my phone died in the first leg of the race, so all of my, like, helper thoughts were gone. So I just had to, like, use what few words I could remember and hope that it was enough, and it it always kind of works out. You know, sometimes you get to a place and, you know, say it's a woman and her husband's not home, and she can't say yes, so you have to move on to the next one. But there's a lot of very nice, friendly, hospitable people out there, so that helps.

01:00:36.739 --> 01:00:47.079
Did you have any any moments of despair while you were out there? Any moments where you're like, oh my god, what am I doing here? And how, how did I get in this? What have I done to myself?

01:00:47.139 --> 01:01:02.980
Never. I never had moments where I was like, why am I doing this race? I think it was the 10 best days of my life, for sure. But I did have one horse that was more challenging than the others. On day eight, I pulled a stallion. I never stallion before, so I was like, this is going to be terrible.

01:01:02.980 --> 01:02:56.199
Terrifying, right? Stallions, you know? I'm a, you know, I'm a backyard trail rider. I don't ride stallions. Well, he was a weak sauce stallion. The funny thing about stallions in Mongolia is they have really long, flowing names and are beautiful because they Roach the mains of all the geldings. And in Mongolia, they don't ride the mares at all. The mares are just milked. So when you're riding the race, you're only riding geldings and stallions. But the stallion, he came out of the horse station, and we slowly watched every other rider go ahead of us, and our little canter that he had never really, I think, had a person on his back cantering before slowly went to the slowest, it was the slowest trot I've ever done in my life. And then we're walking, and it was a hot leg of the day, and I was very far behind everyone, and at one point it was like, Sandy and the road and the horse like got down and rolled into this tack on, and I was like, This is not good. And then it's the only leg of the whole race where there was a town that we had to pass through, and a compulsory bridge. And was one of those things, like from the from the cartoons, where you see the thing up ahead in the distance, and it doesn't get any closer, no matter how many hours you travel towards it. I was just see this, the city looming in the distance, and I was never getting any closer to it. And it was hot and I was hungry, and I was imagining I was like, when I get to this town, maybe everyone is sitting there by a cafe with a beer, with their horse and some chips. And I was like, maybe, maybe it will be like that when I get there. And, you know, finally, eventually, I get to this town, and there's a Mongolian herder, kind of wandering through the town on his horse, and he's trying to, like, push my horse towards the end of the town, and I'm like, barely able to walk this horse is just so it wants to be done, and it is freaked out by the town. Is like, what is this town? There's like, nobody in the town that's, like, very empty, and there's no one in the side Cafe eating chips and beer.

01:02:52.300 --> 01:04:06.059
So I was too scared to go and tie my horse by myself up, and I apparently I was hours behind everyone. And I finally get through the town, and I come to this bridge, and it's like, you know, I'm so far behind and I'm so tired and and hot and hungry, and the horse is like, I will not go across this bridge. And I'm like, Okay, well, I am alone and I am last. How am I gonna get this horse across this bridge? I did not want to go. I try to do it mounted. I try get off and try to lead it. And on the other end of the bridge there's an interpreter, I think, kind of left there by the crew the derby to, like, make sure that people, it's a driving bridge, and people driving across this bridge. So I guess he was there to, like, explain if why, wondering why there's, like, weird foreigners on horses trying to grab this bridge. And so eventually he takes pity on me and helps me, like, he leads me across. I'm, like, riding on this tiny little stallion, and he's leading me across, like the walk of shame. And I'm like, man, he took a picture of it too. And I'm I never saw the picture, but I was like, That is the most embarrassing picture of my life. And I finally get to the horse station. It wasn't even right after the bridge. It was like seven more kilometers of like, walking. I get there, I vet him out. His heart rate is high. It didn't he still passed the vet check, but it, it wasn't like, instant come down. It was

01:04:06.059 --> 01:04:10.199
like, and you would have thought his heart rate wouldn't have even been up at all, given the way he was writing,

01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:59.860
writing, yes, and then he had girth galls, like rubs on his girth from rolling, which I should have known, but I wasn't thinking straight. And I'm behind everyone, and they're ready to close the station. I go inside to the gear to the gear to get some food, because I was very hungry, and there's no food. There's no food. The blood wagon, all the folks who had gotten injured or weren't in the ride anymore had eaten all the food, and they were like, Oh, do you want us to make you something? I was like, No, I gotta stay in the race. I gotta go. But I started crying. That was the only time during the race I cried. But took a deep breath after I cried, and was like, I'm going to go out to the horse station, pick another horse. And when I got out there, there was a new vet. His name was Angus, and I went to draw my horse. I got like number 27 and the Mongolian herder, through the interpreter, said, number 27 is no good. Pick another one. So I picked like number 32 and I.

01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:09.420
Uh, you know which is you're supposed to just take the horse, and the Mongol and her is like, No, you want number five. You don't want number 32 and the The vet said, 32 sounds like five.

01:05:09.780 --> 01:05:27.920
And so I got to ride this guy's prize in the DOM horse. And we made that leg so fast, we went in under two hours to the next station, and we ended up passing other riders. So I went from being dead last to being back in the race, but it was a low point for that one moment where I was like, I have so last so

01:05:27.980 --> 01:05:48.940
have you noticed, like, do most people have low moments like that? Do they have moments where they just have to cry? I feel like, I assume they do. I think it'd be weird. I've watched them. You know, after we got back from our June trip, I watched, there was a movie on, it's on Amazon, or something about the race. And I actually it's like, they it, they make it like it's one, but it's like three different years, I think.

01:05:50.679 --> 01:05:57.400
And it looked like almost everybody has a moment where there's blood or tears. There's blood sweat, a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this race.

01:05:57.579 --> 01:06:20.780
Yeah. I mean, it's a long it's a long race. I mean, I physically, I was pretty fine the whole time my challenge because I had done a physical job for the last 17 years. My challenge wasn't physical, but, you know, the mental gruel of like, you know, being last and having to be a drag on the interpreter that was waiting for me and the whole horse station was waiting on me, like that, that kind of pressure I found to be the hardest part,

01:06:21.860 --> 01:06:26.719
how do you? How did you?

01:06:21.860 --> 01:06:30.019
How did you prepare? Like, maybe you were already in an endurance sport because of what you do.

01:06:30.320 --> 01:06:46.719
But as somebody who most of my sports are the opposite. They're more like sprinting sports, like water skiing is very much a sprint. You know, if I was picking between golf and tennis, golf is much more endurance.

01:06:43.300 --> 01:06:52.840
Tennis is what I did. You know, I don't think I've ever played 18 holes of golf. I couldn't even imagine spending that kind of time out and doing one thing.

01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:59.739
So there you go. Shows you my mindset. But how do you get yourself ready for that level of endurance?

01:07:00.398 --> 01:07:40.958
Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, it's like titration, like doing little bits, like doing those little races, I think really helped, you know, knowing, having the confidence, like I've gone 90 miles in a day, so I know I can do this day, you know, and kind of taking all of the pieces that is the race, like spending a year on what kind of gear I was going to bring, understanding how to pack my gear, understanding how to put myself in a position where I felt I wasn't going to felt I wasn't going to fall, you know, making sure that I could run if I was going to be on the ground for a long time, making sure that I wasn't going to get tired. So I think it's about kind of seeing, what are all the skills that you need, you know, little bit of navigation skills, all the skills you need, breaking them down into little pieces of like, well, what is this skill? What is this skill?

01:07:38.599 --> 01:08:16.738
And when you work on them one at a time, you know you don't have to put them together until you're at the race and then the other the other thing that the a good piece of advice that Stevie gave me was get comfortable being uncomfortable. So actually, set up my tent and lived outside for a couple weeks, maybe a month before the race, because I didn't want sleeping on the ground to be new. I wanted to make sure that I could get a good night's sleep on the ground already. And so I tried to, I tried to kind of live that, you know, make sure that all the gear was gear, like all the clothes I was going to wear were super comfortable, you know, that I liked them. And so going through that and trying to try to eliminate any variable that was going to give you problems

01:08:17.819 --> 01:08:24.979
later, yeah, was the preparation part as much of the fun as the actual race. Yeah, I

01:08:24.979 --> 01:08:55.420
actually felt like the the year leading up to the derby was the best year of my life thus far. I mean, that the race, the the 10 days themselves, were the best 10 days of my life. But I just loved the preparation. I loved all the pieces of learning and just, I just kind of took it as, like a whole, wholehearted, whole centered, like I'm going to just go for it, and that's how I want to live my life from now on. So I'm kind of doing that with my next phase of life too, just, just trying to get all the pieces and, you know, I've got the goal at the end of the day and and just try to immerse myself in that.

01:08:55.779 --> 01:08:57.880
But the goal is just the reason for the journey, right?

01:08:58.659 --> 01:08:59.140
Well,

01:08:59.139 --> 01:09:01.979
yeah. But the, maybe, the Yeah, exactly,

01:09:03.238 --> 01:09:15.658
and then the goal, yeah, because the journey is the fun part. Now, do I remember correctly? Because the other race that you could do, besides the Mongol Derby, is the Gaucho derby. And are you getting ready for that? Is that what

01:09:15.658 --> 01:09:27.979
I Yeah? So the day I got back to the they stay at the Holiday Inn and lo and botter, the racers come back there at the end. And I got back to the hotel room, and I was like, you know, cleaning myself up and enjoying a few days of luxury.

01:09:27.979 --> 01:09:31.099
And the first thing I did was I signed up for the Gaucho derby.

01:09:31.219 --> 01:10:07.319
Because I was like, I just, this is, this is what I want to be doing, yeah. So they ended up postponing that race so they won't be having one in 2025 so the race itself will be in January or February of 2026 but I'm going down this January to do the academy there. So I'll get a chance to ride the creojo horses. The Gaucho derby is a 500 kilometer race, so it's a little shorter than the Mongol Derby, but it is a testament to your. Survival Skills. You're bringing your own food, more camping gear. There's not friendly Mongolian families to stay with along the way, so you'll have to,

01:10:08.939 --> 01:10:25.399
yeah, that I followed that deeply this last year, and it just kind of blew me away, how difficult that one is. And yet I think you're gonna not. You won't sail through because nobody sails through, but I think you'll really enjoy every minute of that.

01:10:25.639 --> 01:10:31.279
Yeah, I'm just going to go through with not a lot of expectations. I'm going to train as far as I can and just go to enjoy it.

01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:43.000
So one of the other things is the traveling to and from Mongolia. What does it take to get to Mongolia, which, by the way, I think I looked on a map, it sits right between Russia and China,

01:10:43.300 --> 01:10:54.039
and it's real far, yeah. So it was definitely the farthest I've ever traveled. I think it was like a 12 hour flight to Turkey and then another 12 hour flight to Mongolia, something like that.

01:10:54.220 --> 01:10:57.279
Whoa, that's some long traveling, yeah, but it's

01:10:57.279 --> 01:11:05.819
worth it. I mean, you definitely want I stayed for six weeks. I was really lucky. I had really great people helping me out on my farm that allowed me to leave for so long.

01:11:07.260 --> 01:11:20.720
Yeah, I see I don't do very well traveling for very long because it's hard for me to get away the way my life is structured, like I would have to cut out very important things in my life to make that easy, and I don't want to do that. It

01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:44.260
is a lot, but I really, I, you know, I didn't travel extensively during the years that I was really running my business and building my business up, and I realized, you know, because my background was in anthropology, I've always been interested in other cultures, and traveling has always been important to me, but I kind of let that part of my life kind of be dormant for a long time, and training for the Mongol derby is looking that up.

01:11:40.779 --> 01:11:57.640
And I am going to embrace the fact that I love traveling. So I'm trying to try to straddle both worlds, between having a business set up in Maine where I can flourish, but also having travels and adventures throughout the year.

01:11:59.319 --> 01:12:25.460
I think that's awesome. I know this when I when we finished our trip. So people on this podcast, we heard Stevie, and I talk about, in June, I wrote, went out with Stevie for what turned out to be an endurance boot camp, more than a luxury camping trip, but you were there, Alex, Eric, and Stevie and I were there. And when we finished, and I spent five nights in a tent two at Stevie's place, is that right?

01:12:25.460 --> 01:13:01.020
For four nights in a tent two at Stevie's place, two out in the place that we stayed on the Pacific Crest Trail. The the night I got home, I was like, I want to go back to the tent. Oh, cool. I loved, I loved being out there. And the last night, you know, I was, I was the only one there, because you guys had already gone home. So I stayed out by myself. It was easily freezing. I mean, it was 32 for sure, if not below. And I was fine. I had a good sleeping bag.

01:12:57.039 --> 01:13:32.600
Now, mind you, I'm not, I'm not Jessie. I didn't get on the ground. I slept on the cot. But it was, it was wonderful to be out there, and the moon was full and the horses were in the paddock, and I could see them when I went out to go to the bathroom, and it was just lovely. And I so I can see where you have that and I think a lot of my questions come from something that I think I've mostly answered, but not 100% which is, what if I did something like that? You know?

01:13:28.699 --> 01:13:33.680
Well, how would I do that? Could I do it? But you

01:13:33.680 --> 01:13:45.939
just just subscribed about staying the night at Stevie's. Sound a lot like stay in the night in Mongolia. You can hear the horses running around, and you're in that tenant, and the moon is over you, and it smells like sage, so it's very similar, same elevation.

01:13:48.520 --> 01:14:39.439
That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, that that really was an eye opening trip. And the other thing is, I had my two longest rides, and I got to watch how you get ready and how you handle adversity, because you know you were there to ride Chuck Norris, and because we had the little kerfuffle with hero, you ended up on hero, which was no big deal for you, but was going to be a big deal for me and for hero for us to try to ride together. Chuck and I were fine, but I remember watching you as we were riding on the 15 mile day. And again, mind you, I am a trail rider that rides one to two to sometimes three hours, and we rode for six plus. I was fine, but I was I noticed that you were riding without stirrups, and I asked you, what was going on? Do you remember what you were doing?

01:14:39.679 --> 01:15:46.958
Yeah, so that's just something I do when I, when I, when I find myself on a trail ride, because sometimes I ride with beginner riders at home. I also am taking students here. If I'm riding slow, sometimes I'm like, Well, I'm going to challenge myself. So if I, if we're riding at the walk, then I'll take my stirrups out, my foot out of the stirrups, and just practice on my seat. And then I'm working to. Different muscles. So I actually really enjoyed that particular ride, being able to do that mostly surplus on red hero. And I never get to ride red hero. So that was really special for me, because I've ridden almost all of Stevie's horses, except for her baby, Valkyrie. And it was really fun to to be able to challenge myself in a different way. And I think it's about, I think that goes back to, like, the mindset, piece of of how you prepare for these, these big events, is when you when you see something that seems like it's maybe okay. I was expecting to ride Chuck, but I was running hero. Well, well, what is it to ride hero? Well, it's really exciting. I never get to ride him, and I can practice other other parts of my riding position. So trying to see each thing that seems like a something that's adversity or something that's difficult or something that doesn't go as planned as well. What is the opportunity in that moment?

01:15:49.060 --> 01:16:30.680
I think that is a profound way of approaching life, recognizing that the truth is we we make plans and God laughs, and if we constantly think there's something wrong when things aren't going the way we expected them to go, we're not going to have a very enjoyable life. But if you're able to, like, go with it, which you did so elegantly and beautifully, like not once did I ever sort of find myself feeling guilty because you weren't throwing any anything my way that said you're taking my horse or anything, which you, you know, that's a human thought you could have. I mean, I was

01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:54.220
excited I get to spend time with you in person, and so I was having a great time. And the other, the other thing for me is, like, I think my superpower when it comes to horses is that I love every horse I'm I'm riding, and like during the Mongol Derby, I never had a situation where I was bucked off or that I was injured or I didn't really have any bad experiences with any of the horses. And I, I really think that comes from the fact that I just genuinely like them all.

01:16:54.699 --> 01:16:59.739
And yeah, I think they can feel that. So if I'm with a horse, there's really nothing to complain about.

01:17:01.479 --> 01:17:25.519
Well, I have come to that I'm really starting to learn to love pretty much every horse I'm with as well. And for me, getting on Chuck and getting the opportunity through all that, to get to ride a horse like him, was huge for me, because, you know, for those that know, my story, just getting back on any horse was a big deal. And this chuck is not just any horse.

01:17:26.059 --> 01:17:29.719
He's, he's a, he's a real horse.

01:17:26.059 --> 01:17:30.918
You know, he's a, he's an Arabian that likes to go,

01:17:31.279 --> 01:17:37.520
Yeah, and I've, I've seen him buck off, uh, very accomplished riders. So he was very good with you. I think he knew,

01:17:39.079 --> 01:18:37.340
he knew he that's what's that's the coolest thing about animals is, is at some level, they know I was, I was just in a raining lesson yesterday where, where I realized that my mind is getting clearer and clearer, and it was the best, probably the best lesson I've ever had in my life, because the horse and I were just in sync to a level that. And I know this with reining horses, that when you when you're getting ready to stop, you actually can't think about stopping before it's time to stop, like, if you're too deliberate in saying, I'm that's the spot 30 feet away. And this is what happened to me yesterday. He just he went ahead and stopped the the second my thoughts went to, we're going to be stopping soon. And I know I didn't change my body. It's a mind thing, yeah, because I was very, I'm very mindful about us, like I have to keep writing right, that I can't start getting ready to stop in my head. And that's how much they know, they you know, which is back to what we said. If they, if they can hear us beating ourselves

01:18:37.340 --> 01:18:38.899
up totally.

01:18:40.159 --> 01:18:42.760
So it's important, how can that is for them?

01:18:43.239 --> 01:18:46.659
It's it's important to really limit your negative self talk for that reason,

01:18:48.939 --> 01:18:52.779
and to truly learn how to master it and, frankly, eliminate it.

01:18:53.859 --> 01:18:55.899
What's the tall order?

01:18:53.859 --> 01:18:55.899
I'm still working on that.

01:18:57.039 --> 01:19:13.979
Well, we all, I mean, I'm definitely working on it, but, but I definitely, I've made strides. I've made strides, and I think it's possible. I think it's done. I think we do set negative self talk for good reason. I think we're doing it to try to make ourselves better.

01:19:10.500 --> 01:19:13.979
It just doesn't work. Yeah,

01:19:13.979 --> 01:19:25.880
I mean, we become what we think of most, and so if we spend a lot of time thinking about our downsides, then that's where we're going to go. And so it's so important to set your energy and intention towards where you want to go.

01:19:26.720 --> 01:20:02.699
I like the way you said that we become what we think of most. I always say you get more of what you touch, but it is very true. If you follow your mind, you'll find out what your life is. So if you're I'm imagining, and I hope that you will send future people who are considering doing something like the Mongol or the Gaucho Derby to this podcast to maybe learn more about it and learn how to get ready. What would you say to somebody that is concerned?

01:19:57.579 --> 01:20:05.279
Considering it, what what were, what are the top things you would say helped you get ready?

01:20:05.279 --> 01:20:09.119
I know we've summarized some of them already, but what would that be?

01:20:10.140 --> 01:20:30.380
Get ready? I think physical fitness would be one of the top things, because I feel like being in shape, being able to trust my body made the whole experience more fun for me, because I think, and also, you're less likely to be injured if you are in good shape.

01:20:31.640 --> 01:20:36.619
So the whole experience, all that with me falling off of hero, me being fit, I think,

01:20:36.859 --> 01:20:53.319
yeah, it makes a huge difference. I think it's a lot easier to get injured when you have a weakness, especially if you have like, one of the things I found out when I was training is I had a bit more of a left side weakness. And actually worked with a with an equestrian fitness coach to work on that alignment, and that made a huge difference.

01:20:54.340 --> 01:20:59.500
Yeah, so fitness, physical fitness, mental fitness, definitely,

01:20:59.500 --> 01:21:33.979
definitely, if you know, I'm lucky. I did not have an office job. I pretty much worked on a job that was already I was already living in like a fight or flight mode, like, you know, crisis lifestyle of working all the time. And so my ability to endure had already been stretched to beyond what is probably necessary for you so, so those kind of things were kind of my strengths that I drew on from just my life. But if, if you are living an office job, then I would say that it's going to be a bit more work to get your to get your endurance up there.

01:21:35.659 --> 01:21:41.260
Yeah, any, any exercises or advice you give to somebody wanting to get their endurance up there? Yeah?

01:21:41.260 --> 01:22:30.680
I mean, I just what, honestly, I think Stevie is an amazing trainer, and I followed what she what she taught me, and which was I started running regularly, and she taught us how to use the balance board, so just strengthening those micro muscles in your lower legs, squats, doing lots of lunges, like the first boot camp we did, like 100 lunges in the morning, and feeling, feeling your thighs, and then just yoga, for me, that's a modality that really works. But, you know, there's, I think there's so many ways to get at it, you know, whatever type of fitness activity that speaks to you is probably going to work, you know, a regular practice. You know, I'm I'm 43 and I feel great. I love, you know, the more I work out regularly, the better I feel about being able to get on and ride a horse all day.

01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:37.880
And you do love to ride a horse all day. You were so happy to be out there all day when we were riding. It's funny.

01:22:37.880 --> 01:22:46.899
I thought the riding Tevis that I it was, like a bucket list thing, and that I was just doing it. So I could say I did it, but I can't even tell you how much fun I had.

01:22:47.199 --> 01:22:59.500
Like, I thought the night writing was going to be kind of grueling and I wasn't going to enjoy it, but it was, like full moon, and we rode, like, I don't know, maybe seven hours in the dark, and I loved every second of being on chuck that night.

01:22:59.619 --> 01:23:00.779
And yeah, so

01:23:00.779 --> 01:23:13.140
that we haven't even talked about Tevis, good grief, that was incredible. And I noticed, I know one of your posts, when right after you had gotten off, was that sure was a lot of trotting downhill.

01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:21.260
Yeah. So if you want to put Tevis in one sentence, it is trotting quite trot, trotting quickly over rocks downhill.

01:23:21.800 --> 01:23:25.640
That is over rocks downhill. Yes, did you? Did you?

01:23:25.699 --> 01:23:32.720
I mean, I know y'all did walk some during the ride, but did you walk? Like, what percentage would you say was walking, trotting? Countering? How would you break it down? A

01:23:32.720 --> 01:23:44.859
good question. When I went to the new rider meeting the night before the ride, and a woman who had been doing, I can't remember her name, but she's like a very well known has done the ride a million times.

01:23:40.640 --> 01:24:03.899
She said, walk where you can walk, where you have to trot, where you can never hurry, never Valley. And basically, like there are going to be places where it's just too rocky and you have to walk, especially in the canyons. We actually got off our horses and ran down the canyons, at least the first Canyon before I felt like I was about to have a heart attack.

01:23:59.560 --> 01:24:10.619
And then ride the horses up, because we as humans are stronger going downhill on foot and the horses are stronger going uphill. But the trotting,

01:24:10.619 --> 01:24:15.840
15am and finish at 4:54am the next day.

01:24:15.840 --> 01:24:50.199
So, you know, and there's two hour holds, but the rest of it, you're on the horse. So, it's 22 hours basically, of riding, which is no small feat, and you are trotting fast for a lot of that, way more than I had thought we would have. In order to get that 100 miles done, you have to move at quite a fast pace, which I yeah, I was surprised how fast you had to move to be able to make the cutoffs, because if you don't get to a certain checkpoint by a certain time, they'll pull you from the ride because you won't make it in the right amount of time, right,

01:24:50.738 --> 01:24:59.918
right? So I, we, Stevie and I talked at length about some of that, but say a little bit about what it what you had to do to get yourself out of the canyon when you were feeling.

01:24:59.998 --> 01:25:10.859
You were having a heart attack, because I have been there. And the funny thing about our physical bodies is, first of all, sometimes everything feels like a heart attack.

01:25:11.099 --> 01:25:58.599
Yeah, I never had chest pain before. So well, we went down that first Canyon. And, you know those canyons, I mean, they're hot. I don't know what happens, but all the heat from the day just kind of sits in that canyon. And, you know, I'm from the East Coast, and I thought that, you know, I'm trained in humid weather and heat, humid heat, but the heat of this year's Tevis was definitely beyond my comfort level by by a long shot. And I'm usually pretty good in the heat, but when we got into that bottom of the canyon, we were standing down by the river. There's a swinging bridge there, and we were cooling our horses off, and I found that I, like, couldn't really effectively, like, give my horse electrolytes, or, like, cool it off. I was kind of struggling to, like, move, and I felt kind of lame. I was like, Man, I'm, like, the weakest link of this group. Like, they're going to think I'm not trying.

01:25:58.958 --> 01:26:06.538
And then we get across the bridge. And I'm like, Stevie, My chest hurts like I think I'm at my heart attack. And she was just like, get on your horse.

01:26:04.198 --> 01:26:14.338
You're gonna be fine. And she was like, breathe in a certain way. And I was like, Okay. She says, I'm gonna be fine. I'll be fine. And I just was like, Okay, I'll just trust her. That's good. Yeah,

01:26:14.338 --> 01:26:36.439
she she said she taught you how to do the physiological sigh, which I've actually had to go do in the middle of the night when I felt like I was having chest pains, you know, and having a heart attack. And it, it actually did. It wasn't a heart attack. I could tell it what. I was pretty sure. It wasn't a heart attack. I wasn't 100% sure. But just like, letting out that stress, yeah, diminishing two

01:26:36.439 --> 01:27:01.199
sips of breath in, and then a one long breath out. And it totally worked. And I just did that, going, like, riding, riding truck up that hill, and then by the time we got to the top of the hill, I was absolutely fine. I had no other instances of that, but there was just a moment where I had never felt the kind of pressure on my chest before. Like, there was this, this moment where I was like, my guy, am I gonna die right now? Like, is this the end? It was fine. I don't know that that was bizarre.

01:26:58.779 --> 01:27:01.800
Definitely never felt that before.

01:27:01.800 --> 01:27:06.119
Yeah, how was it writing in the dark that that's something that's a little freaky to me.

01:27:06.239 --> 01:27:08.880
I thought it was good.

01:27:06.239 --> 01:27:31.939
So I had written, I had ridden in the dark on the 75 on the two other hundreds I had done, and the 75 I had done. So I had done some night writing before, and I'd always found it really challenging. And I'd only read for like, three or four hours in the dark, and this was going to be seven. So it was definitely the part that I was the most nervous about of the whole race, but it was actually the part I had the most fun. I felt like I was in a magical fairy land, like that's how the forest felt.

01:27:29.000 --> 01:28:00.039
And there were Bay trees, so it smelled like bay leaves in the in the canyons that we were in at night, and there's glow lights marking the trail. And so I kept imagining the forest spirits from Princess Mononoke, and that I was just like in this magical, Enchanted Forest. And there was little forest spirits everywhere, and we were being led along by some other riders in the dark, and we're in a line. And I just every moment just felt magical. And I was just with this wonderful horse, and yeah, I just, I absolutely loved every moment. And

01:28:00.039 --> 01:28:13.800
did you did you get saddle sore at all? Did you have rubbed spots and stuff? Because like I did yesterday, I just an hour and a half ride, I realized I got myself I thought about the Body Glide. I got a little bit saddle sore yesterday. I'm curious how you manage that?

01:28:13.979 --> 01:28:21.979
So I've worked through the right outfit to wear on these long rides over the last couple years. But the only thing I wasn't able to prepare for it.

01:28:19.319 --> 01:28:25.460
For Tevis was the downhill riding, because I never have been on downhills like that.

01:28:25.520 --> 01:29:19.619
It's just that's downhill to the nth degree. So when we, when we got up at three in the morning to start the ride, I wasn't really paying attention. I didn't zip my chaps closed all the way because I couldn't see and I just, I don't know, I was thinking about a million other things, and not about putting my chaps on right. And when we got about like 10 or 15 miles into the ride, I started to have some really bad rubbing on my shins from going downhill and not having my chaps on straight, and all my stirrups were one hole too long. So by the time we got to Robinson flat, which is the first vet check my my shins were hurting, um, but I took some Tylenol when I got there, I fixed my chaps, I think I put on some dry socks, which was very nice. I'm glad that Mallory had told me I should put, I should bring extra socks, and I'm really glad she did. And then, and then I shortened my stirrups, and then I was fine after that. So really, it's about making sure your gear is working. Yeah,

01:29:19.739 --> 01:29:29.359
though that makes all the difference. It it tells you a lot. And for me, this the rub spot that I had showed me that I was cocked way too far to one side on the horse. Because it's

01:29:30.560 --> 01:29:45.760
only a being balanced makes a huge difference. But I'll tell you my shins, so it's so it's a one month later. Today is August 20, and the race was July 20. I still have swollen spots on my shins. I think there were like giant hematomas from that ride. Wow, wow.

01:29:45.939 --> 01:29:59.920
Well, I mean, it's to be expected that you're going to come out, as you said, have those moments of discomfort, and, you know, kind of keep it going for for a while. So do you have aspirations to do Tevis again, or you do.

01:30:00.180 --> 01:30:24.920
To Yeah, so it was really cool to be able to ride Tevis on Stevie's horse, and I now know what it would take to train my own horse to do it. So I think that it's not a like a next year plan, because Stevie says it takes five years to create a Tevis horse. And so someday, I would like to get access to horses that have Tevis potential, and I would like to train my own team up of riders.

01:30:21.979 --> 01:30:56.500
So I love what Stevie does, where she has, you know, five, four or five horses that do it together. Horses love being in a group. So I really love this model of having a team of riders, because then your horse is happy for the whole time because they're with their buddies. There are some times where you have to go off alone, and that can be challenging. So my goal is, is to spend, you know, maybe, maybe not be on the, like next year burner, but, you know, in the five years or more, like, I would love to curate a good team of horses and bring them back for Teva someday. But in the meantime, I just want to work on curating a good team of horses. So