#15 Heike Neumann on Leading Change when Everything is Changing
Who knew meeting someone at a ski lake wearing the same T-shirt that said, “Women who behave rarely make history,” would lead to a long, rich friendship. In the 15th episode of the Creative Spirits Unleashed Podcast, I’m speaking with Heike Neumann, Vice President of Marketing for Oracle Corporation. In her more than 25 years of experience working in the US and EMEA to market global B2B (Business to Business) tech brands, she has launched marketing strategies in 23 countries. She is passionate about global markets, developing strategies, implementing those, and following through to deliver desired business outcomes with a "get things done" attitude. Her motto in business is, "It needs to be reliable, repeatable, and scalable."
Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:Welcome to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. For this episode I'm speaking with Heike Newman, Vice President of Marketing for Oracle Corporation. In her more than 25 years experience working in the US and EMEA to market global business to business tech brands. She is launched marketing strategies in 23 countries. She knows a thing or two about marketing. She is passionate about global markets about developing strategies, implementing those strategies and following through to deliver desired business outcomes with a get things done attitude. Her motto in business is this It needs to be reliable, repeatable and scalable. In her private life, she's a passionate water skier and triathlete, and that's how I met her was through waterskiing. This is a conversation I have been wanting to have for a while. We frequently talk about the challenges of leading change, and especially in dealing with those changes we didn't choose. For example, you're going to hear in this episode about the year that Heika had, count them seven different managers. That's a lot of change. And that's a lot of uncertainty. She also calls out in this episode, a number of the balancing acts that leaders deal with that she deals with regularly, like managing up and managing down like speaking your mind, but doing it in a way that keeps you in good standing. There are a number of really cool sort of rabbit trails. We go down here about what it's like to lead change. It's just full of practical ideas for handling large complex operations and strategic projects. In the midst of lots of change in the midst of lots of uncertainty, so I would love to hear what you think about this conversation. And I have a cool feature on my website. It's a send a voicemail button on my podcast webpage. It's on the right hand side. It's sort of a vertical bar. So go to that page, click on it and send me a voicemail. I'd love to hear from you. If you have questions, I'd love to hear those as well. And of course, if you are, if you find this episode useful, share it with your colleagues and your your friends. I think there's a lot to be learned from this conversation and I hope you enjoy it. Haha, welcome to the podcast.
Heike:Lynn. Thanks for having me.
Lynn:I'm glad you're here. We have had so many conversations over the years in our friendship that started on the side of a ski like and what was it 2007
Heike:Yeah, 2007
Lynn:and it was 2008 When we both showed up wearing the same t shirt, even though you lived in Germany, and I lived in the United States, do you remember what the shirt said?
Heike:Yeah, the shirt said women who behave rarely make history.
Lynn:And we've obviously both agreed with that in mind said like, learn North Carolina. And I don't even remember what 10 years said. But that was one of our immediate connections when we met was these were two women who didn't behave, I guess I
Heike:would say, maybe, at least not to the general norm.
Lynn:But why not? So one of the things I wanted to start with in this conversation is, you know, all in the last since I've known you, and, and even since I've seen you, which was just in June, and just for those who are listening, we're recording this right now. On zoom. You seem to be somebody who has learned to adapt to change. It's so much has changed in your life in the time that I've known you these last 13 years. And a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are in the midst of change, are having to reach and you're having to be involved in change. And so I would just like to, like throw that out there for you to riff on for a minute of Do you have any secrets for either leading change or adapting to change?
Heike:I'm not sure if if I would call it secrets, though, the way I'm approaching change. And I've also had changed the time of my life and obviously, my professional career,
Lynn:but the way you just change has changed. Is that what you're saying?
Heike:Yeah, I'm constantly morphing and changing reinventing myself in the sense of the way how I react on things. So in my past life, as a young A person. everything for me was about speed. It was, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, it needed to go as as it came and I was not looking into longer terms with anything. That means if you don't look longer terms ahead of you, you probably also don't look back in longer terms. So now a little bit older and wiser. The way I'm approaching change is, usually as everybody else, I have an immediate reaction, something is thrown at me and I have an immediate reaction in my personality. I can't hate it, I hide it in my face. I can't hide it in the way I'm probably immediately speaking something out. But now I really try to have this first reaction and then step back and try to look at it with an ass neutral eye as possible. Try to see Everything what's involved in the change? Which in a speech reaction is reacting on me? What does it mean for me? But nowadays I'm looking Okay, so there's there might be a change. And my immediate reaction is like, I don't like that.
Lynn:It usually is, even if it's a good change.
Heike:Yeah, it's why why do we need to change that everything was fine. So now I'm taking a step back and say, Okay, I might not like it at that point. But let's keep an open mind and see, so where is this change coming from? Why are we having it? How does it affect me professionally, in my family life, and then how does it affect my team in also their professional lives, as well as their family lives. Because if you're looking at the biggest change We all went through in 2020 is how COVID changed how we need to work, right? And I have a team, where a lot of my team members have kids, and all of a sudden they have kids at home. And so for me, as a manager, I need to adapt to that change and say, Okay, I, they need to homeschool kids on the side, they had a full time job before they still have a full time job. So how can we as a team work around that, so that people really can take a step back and say, Hey, I need a family moment here. Which is has also to do with accepting that there are some things you cannot change.
Lynn:Well, and you know, I have to I have to pause on that because once upon a time with the exception of those few times that somebody does something cute and it makes it on ABC News. It's been kind of not okay to have family moments and a lot of zoom call or whatever. If somebody was working from home, which, up until the last few years was almost never done, but it kind of was like, you just keep your family set to yourself and you show up as a professional. And that all had to go out of a window.
Heike:Yeah, and I always have had been that kind of person thinking more holistically about that, because what's going on in your outside professional life affects your professional life, if you want to admit it or not. I mean, I had seen during my career, I had managers who went through divorce and had been really bad managers at that time. But knowing and letting people in on what's going on, and being open about it and honest, gives people the chance to cut you some slack. So you might have those situations in your life. You can't get out off in your private life. But if you Get the empathy of the people around you in your work environment. It makes life much easier for everybody else. Right? And I remember when I happen in my mid 20s somebody said, I worked like, you really carry your mood on your face. And I said, Yeah. And yeah, but don't you think it's unprofessional? I say no, because if I'm stinky mood, I don't want to have you around me. So back off. And I
Lynn:can't play poker, right? Because everybody knows what when you ever get a game?
Heike:Exactly. No, I can't. I would be the worst poker player ever. But it really is. So if I'm grumpy for what reason ever, I mean, that does not need to mean that I need to behave unprofessionally. But I can, I can openly say to people, hey, I'm having a day. Just me alone today. Like, tread lightly. And that's also something I told Except with my employees. So with my team members, if some somebody has a grumpy day and they're saying like, hey, my daughter had been sick and she had a fever I was up all night. What What do I have? What what's the game for me as a manager, if I'm saying like, Yeah, I don't care. It's no gain. Absolutely not. She might be to have an easier day. Because she she hadn't slept and she has a sick child at home. And what tomorrow it's better,
Lynn:right and actually pushing her today. Chances are you're going to make today will be bad and tomorrow will be bad and so forth. Like you don't really give a chance for somebody to regain their footing or regain their balance, you know, recover.
Heike:Exactly. And that also kimberlites if you're looking into bigger In to the bigger environment of teams and managers. And I mean, I do have manager. So it's I'm not at that point in my career where I don't have any manager left. So there are managers above me. There's always, you know,
Lynn:this isn't you, you and I've talked about this a little bit, there's always the secret. I always call it the X marks the spot. A lot of people aspire to reach the point where they have no managers, which is theoretically the CEO. And I work with a lot of CEOs and what what they discover when they get there is Oh, no, no, I I now not not only do I have one manager called the chairman of the board, but I have a whole board. And I have investors usually or some other stakeholders and all of that. So the CEO X marks the spot. It's actually kind of nicer to be a little lower in the organization sometimes.
Heike:Yeah, exactly.
Lynn:Mine is we all have managers,
Heike:and we all have managers and and that is also the little bit of the secret to adapting to change is finding the right balance between managing up and down. Mm hmm. So if, as I said, there might be an immediate reaction from my side where I say I don't like this, but then reflecting on what does it mean, upwards and downwards to the team. So if, if I have a chance to be as open as I can be with my team, meaning that there's always an managerial situation stuff, you cannot tell your team. But if you can be as open to your team and also share with them why change is happening? Yeah, loop them in. I mean, these are all professionals. These are all grownups. So give them the understanding and the knowledge why things are happening and that I think the most important point is what is the goal of change? We're not changing or change takes
Lynn:when we're out. We're not doing that. But I want to tell I want to dive in for a second because that idea of, there's always stuff you can't tell, but you want to be open. I feel like that's a balancing act. It's very hard to strike because people, it seems to me like people have radar for the unspoken. And whether they have radar or not. They certainly I think our brains just do this when we have uncertainty or when we have unknown information, like being you know, waiting for your kid to come home at night and knowing that you think that they've had a car accident or think of the worst, our brains just go to the worst. So how do you manage the stuff you can't talk about versus being open like how do you find that right balancing act.
Heike:So if, if we do have a clear goal for change Certainly communicate that change. And I will say to my team there is there are details I cannot talk about, please understand that, but this is the goal. This is what we are striving for. also giving them the confidence that they are proud of it, and that they, I'm looking at my team to help creating that change, right. It's not me telling them I'm not the know all do all it but really being a team player myself, and that is where it's coming back to being player coach. Mm hmm. And not just coach, but also player and and sometimes I'm telling them like I can, I cannot give you the details. Please. Please understand.
Lynn:Does that for your team and in general has that has that helped kind of calm the waters when people are concerned? Or does it depend on what's going on?
Heike:I mean, it's not always calming it, but and it depends on what's going on. So, for example, my team went through several big changes within the organization. Last year, I had several extremely big changes in my managers, and I have to say, my current manager named Skinner, when he came on board, he was for me, manager number seven in that year, and seven and I was almost approaching is like, okay, so who are you and what you want
Lynn:and how long do you think you're gonna last?
Heike:Yes, Nate came in and was very clear about what he's trying to achieve and what my expectations are, what his expectations are for me. Hmm. I, and that was the moment where he absolutely had me on this site. Because Don't be secretive, don't leave people in the dark. But as clear as it can get, that helps where I had the chance as the person who has that change coming to her, I have a chance with a clear vision to agree if I want to be a part of it.
Lynn:So that that's interesting, because I've actually seen managers play that that idea of having clear what, you know, communication and expectations. Yeah, I see some people will fall on the side of, I want to let you define your role as much as possible, so they're not as clear. I see. Some people are sort of like, this is my way or the highway, you got to be perfectly like inline and then there's some balancing act in the middle. It's just writing it It seems to me like he was clear, but also, and I'm made to be reading between the lines, but he was communicating to you, you have a part of this. And because it was a little bit of both it worked is that am I hearing that right?
Heike:Yeah, that's, that's correct. It's really sharing this goal we're going towards, and what is your potential role on that? And that's the way I'm doing it. Also, with my team is this is the goal and being open and honest about it. It's like, Hey, we're going to go in rough waters for a while because we have changing processes. We're changing reporting lines, everything which makes professional life inconvenient time. So in COVID, and the chance not to get together face to face, yeah, which would solve a lot of problems and a lot of friction can be taken out and we all know you get together and room for two days and you just Hash it out in a whiteboard. So it's all those things which cumulated together and even in those times, it's the more important to to clearly communicate, have people's input. I think also in change situations, it is always extremely important to be open for ideas. Mm hmm. Yeah, I might have an idea, but it might not be the best on Earth. Somebody might come on, it's like, I like your idea. But how could you think about that? Can we do do it the other way around, leads to the same goal. And that comes back to communicating clearly. What's the end game here is what are we trying to get through? Why are we doing this? And it starts already with three year old kids when they start to ask why, why why? And not saying that, that our employees our three year old kids, but it's the the human curiosity and the need to understand why am I doing this? And I actually would encourage people to ask What's the Why? Yeah, no time Why? It's not that I need to explain the why four Standard Work stuff. But the if we're really having significant change it, I think people need to understand why we're doing it.
Lynn:Well, I think that we owe that to people eat and if we can't answer it, or we don't know, then you have to pause and go, Okay, what the heck are we doing? Because there really does need to be a good why, but I want to I want to touch on something you said that I think is actually really important, which is the human curiosity side. Because it's fun. The funny thing about like, we're not three year olds saying why like, How frustrating that can be when you answered the 20th why question the last hour, but, you know, there is something about children that is uniquely creative, that we tend to have shut down and so have you found This approach helps people if you allow them to be human, if you allow them to have their curiosity, if you allow them to ask why, if you kind of keep them in the loop, have you found it helps with their ability to be creative and to come along?
Heike:Absolutely, because it gives everyone an opportunity to position themselves in the picture. Hmm. And it really, it really helps for people if they understand why they're doing it, they come to that point where they can make the decision. I like this or I don't like this. And if I don't like this, how can I make it that I like this? So that that is and that that is what I think oftentimes gets lost in in large corporations. People are shuffled around. You're just shuffle people and I said, these are people Don't treat them as cattle is you're not pushing them from one side to the other. And yes, it might be inconvenient from time to time that that we need to move people around. But then it comes back. Tell them why you're doing it. Yeah.
Lynn:Yeah, cuz they are actual people. But it's I have found it. And this is actually one of the reasons I wanted us to have this conversation is I have found that it's fairly normal for people to sort of lose their humanity. When they get in big settings where it's harder to see the picture. It's harder to find or get their hands on that end goal. They don't really see it as clearly. They don't have managers who tell them what they're doing. And personally, I know this happened for me when I was at Bank of America. There were times when I was so much in survival mode that really all I thought about was doing whatever it took to get that paycheck because I was a single mom and I needed to pay off My bills and so I would do kind of whatever was needed just to make sure I didn't end up, you know, on the street is or what I thought was going to be on the street.
Heike:Yes. And I had a longer phase of that too. coming to the United States on a work visa and being tied to my employer. Yes, that that is. That is the thing where I had felt personally tossed around with and change without any kind of opportunity to say, I leave it right. That was not you go you go back to Germany. Exactly. So I would have that would have not been leaving a job that would have been leaving a life Wow. And changing all over. So that is certainly happened. Certainly a lesson for me to deal with change. No matter how I disliked it, and sometimes I have to say it make, I, for me it made me a I think a better person and, and a better manager and employee, because I couldn't run away. Which would have my natural instinct probably been sometimes the easy way out, go like, guess what skirt I'm out of here. Yeah. And sometimes you can do that. And that is like in relationships. Yeah, it would be easy sometimes to just go and say, You know what, this weight loss thing I'm not dealing with it by, um, that option wasn't there. And therefore, I, I was forced by myself and what I mean Nobody forced me from from my employer side but forced by myself and what I wanted to do and wanted to stay here and so on. So of course, too, sometimes To a change I absolutely did not agree with. Mm hmm. And I did not necessarily have a change a chance to change it. And that at the end of the day, it I think it made me a stronger person, too, because it forced me to take a step back from my probably inner child being totally flustered and like stomping my foot on the ground like, No, no, no, no, I don't want to go step back and reflect. Okay, so this is the situation, how am I going to make the best out of it? And then coming back to that point leading a team is I can have a hissy fit. It's not possible. So but I can let my team know that I'm a human being. And then working together with my team. How do we get through through change as a team,
Lynn:right? Well, you could have a hissy fit But she actually wouldn't be serving them at all. I mean, no, if you have a hissy fit, and you talked about earlier about managing up and down, you're not helping anybody know you're making it, you know, you're going to cause your manager to have a question. And I'm not talking when I say hissy fit. I'm not talking about the first reaction because I actually think for all of us, our first thought always is something to be questioned because our first thought is reactive. Yeah, man, as you said, it's based in fear. It's based in an inner child kind of, you know, oftentimes, like survival mode kind of thing. It's our second thought that we can start deciding how to really be it sounds like you really had to work through some tough times.
Heike:Yeah, it was. It was tough at times, and I think I got through it. pretty satisfying. And and really not necessarily hanging in there, but to changing the situation to be an acceptable for me, yeah, at the same time I find it I found it important that even so I was in a situation where my being here and my life in the US was dependent on my job and my employer Yeah, that I still did not basically go in my shell and say, Yeah, I do whatever you want. So still being a strong managers go being a strong person and go like Okay, so that's what you want to do. No, I do not agree with this. Isn't this Matt so how can we fix it? So really getting over this moment of as soon as possible, and then picking picking up from Okay, so this is new situation, how can I make that change acceptable for me, as well as for my team, how Can we make the best out of it?
Lynn:And honestly, like you said earlier that is, that's difficult to do. But that's actually what the leaders have changed throughout really need is their people bringing the best thinking. Because at the top, I know I did so many mergers with Bank of America. And there was all it was often done in big brushstrokes. But the details were there to be worked out by us. And a lot of times, we had to come back and say what you're talking about doing, you can't do? Or the timing won't work, for example, this this particular loan system, you you've allowed for 30 days to convert it over to a new system. Are you aware that we don't even have the same fields to map over?
Heike:So yeah,
Lynn:this is not going to take 30 days, this is going to take a year. And there's a case to be made that that's a better system than this one. Before we start mapping, do you want to think about reverse engineering and having, you know, those kind of details that we need to bring to our leaders if we have the courage to do it and say Hey, you guys might not have this all figured out. So we're here to help. But it sounds like you did that. Instead, there's a we got to do to make this work.
Heike:Yeah. And I remember, I remember a session somewhere along my career back in Germany, and it was about communication. And there was a session about killer phrases. And one part I always remember is the people who are always coming in and saying this. No, you can't do that.
Lynn:No, that is your killer phrases, or that around here.
Heike:Exactly. It's not how we're doing it around here. We've never done that. Why should we started to do it now? And, and things like that, where I'm always asking myself first before I'm starting to complain is okay. So we can do that, like in your example of the merger, and we're doing software emerges all over the place. That's kind of standard Where, where I am prepared, at least to come up with a solution. Or at least to say, Hey, we can't do it this way, we need to find a solution and just, which means I might not have it, but maybe the person I'm talking to be at my manager or appear or whatever, might come up with an idea. So that that is another thing is sharing not only the goals, but also the challenges. Okay, I don't have the answer. I'm not gonna know all Mm hmm. So but there might be people in my team will have the answer. They're actually pretty smart. Yeah. Smart as a whip, actually. Yeah.
Lynn:Describe, if you will, like what exactly like what it can if you can, and if you can't, I understand. But what is sort of your team's big goal right now? Like what is it that you all are trying to achieve? in your in your company.
Heike:So we are restructuring the entire way article does marketing and looks at marketing started with our Kalman, our new cmo coming in a while back. And with the area I'm responsible for customer experience, the customer experience product line. And Nate Skinner, my boss coming in as the global marketing leader for that product pillar. Mm hmm. We are focusing on really bringing all marketing together globally, to have a coherent appearance and all marching in the same direction and not everyone is doing what the heck they think it's just the right thing to say and do in the mark. Good place. And for my team, specifically, I'm leading the integrated marketing team. So I'm responsible for demand generation, for paid media, for content creation. I am really working with my team to do really what's integrated marketing, even so not everything is directly in the line of my responsibility or the responsibility of my team. There's a lot of people who are helping us, for example, to create content, which are not part of my content team. Or we have our marketing teams doing events or virtual events and webcasts, which should be part of demand generation. So we're really trying to be the center where things come together so that we are not having random acts of marketing everywhere or content creation but everything we're doing has a purpose and tied together to a strategy to really region ankle. Okay, and not not really like yeah, we should do a webinar because nobody else is doing a webinar right now. Yeah, no, everybody.
Lynn:So I have a question about I want to I want to ask you why is your sort of kitchen English definition of demand generation because that's a kind of a relatively new marketing term in the last few years and concept and I think it's allowed been allowed by a lot of the advances we've had in technology and and just general thinking about business but what's your sort of kitchen English? You know, like for the non marketing person, what would you How would you describe demand Gen to them?
Heike:I would say and very easy terms, serving messages to the people. We want to talk to In a way that they are able to react to it. Okay? So it's not a one way street is I'm actually sending a message to somebody I want to talk to, and engage them in a sense that they are reacting to it and taking a step. So that might be they are coming to webinar or they're downloading something. So you would
Lynn:know them very well to do that. because let me tell you the picture that just came up for me and tell me if I've just got this your let you live in Clermont, Florida. You obviously speak German, because you used to live in Germany and you still have a German accent. My bet is that if you were standing around in an event, back in the day when we can actually stand around in events pre COVID, or you know, walking down the street and you heard somebody else, speaking German, especially if you were in like the same event. Almost certainly YouTube would Want to talk to each other? Is that? Absolutely yes, you'd immediately recognize we are this we are this. We have a we have a common element through our language. Yeah. And perhaps even a common experience from both being here in America, both of us being in Claremont. You were in Germany, are you from kind of like an American might do in the reverse situation, like if I was in Germany. So in demand, Jan, when you talk about those messages, then what you're saying is, we know our customers so that the way we use our images, our words, our messaging, what we put in front of them, we almost are like a magnet to attract them to us because we get them so well. Is that a good way to describe it?
Heike:Yes, that would be the ideal scenario. Yeah.
Lynn:Okay. And then in the meantime, of course, there's a lot of other people vying for their attention.
Heike:Yeah, always everyone,
Lynn:always, always, always. So notwithstanding this, there could even be competitors listening to this podcast, but I Still want to ask, What is your secret to finding that and getting your message through? And I want to I want to frame that by saying in the work I do, I'm not always working with people in the marketing world. But I am working with a lot of people in the corporate world who's who are having to use methods like email, Slack, other kind of project management software so forth on big and complex things where they're already on the same team or on the same thing, and they even through those methods that are tried and true sort of backdoor methods to talk to people getting their message through is still hard with the people we work with.
Heike:Yeah, I mean, first of all, we are using a whole bunch of technology to to know where are people you know, on the internet, what's their intent whether you know, you have all the cookies and without Going into much technical detail. And that there's there's enough technology's telling us what people are looking for what they're interested in. Okay, that's merged with, who do we want to talk to? Because we also need to make sure that we're not trying to boil the ocean and, and want to talk to everyone, but we also have clear ideas off, which industries who want to sell to which tip, which company sizes are typical customers for Oracle. So we're looking at this data and then really trying to reach those people. Mm hmm. And if when it comes to messages, that is, that is a very interesting thing. So email was a long time, the gold standard of everything. I personally have to say right now emails tricky. It gapped. It has become tricky the last few years. But since we have COVID, it is extremely tricky. I don't know how it is for you, but my private email exploded. I mean, I almost have as many private emails as a company emails, meaning we're at least three digits deep, deep and three digits a day. Yeah. Where I start to be master of unsubscribe. On the private side where I'm going like, okay, you sent me an email this morning and for lunch and for after in the afternoon, do you think I because you sent me three emails on the same thing, I'm going to buy it. It's I didn't want to buy it this morning and didn't want to buy it at lunchtime. I don't want to buy it in the afternoon. And if you repeat the whole pattern tomorrow isn't the only thing you're doing is annoying. Mm hmm. And if you're thinking about how to get messages out to people is really try to find them where they are. Mm hmm. If you're if you're sending them an email, you're literally throwing something in their mailbox. That would be as if you're just opening the mailbox at their house and throw something in there and then you hope that they open it. It can work if it is very well crafted, but you need to cut through the noise. But then there are so many other places where people are in our virtual environment. And that that is really trying to find them where they are open the opportunities to show them the content you want them to see. At the medium they are in. And it's it's very it's became over the last years and this is very diversified. So for example, we're marketing to marketers That is a very interesting concept. Because we are our own target group. So we are often going back and say is like, what are we doing? and comparing within the teams is like, Where do you get your information from? Where do you digest information? How do you digest information, it often differ, differentiate itself, even on the level people are. So you have people in the past traveling a lot. They might consume information literally on the fly in between, you know, to gate on their cell phone, and what kind of information would they be able to digest? And how do you get back to them? But then, also, a good old concept I think a lot of people overlook is in marketing. I hear often Oh, you need to reach the sea level because they're making the buying decision. Yes or no? Ultimately, yes, they Sign the order or sign off on the order, right? And they will have a say in what's going to be invested in. But it is a long way until this buying decision happens. And if you're taking this back, let's say into the 80s, you want to get into the sea level office. You better get past that desk of the EA.
Lynn:Yeah, the gatekeepers. The best always, always, always the best sales people have been the ones who understood First, the power of the gatekeeper and then the ability to get past the gatekeeper.
Heike:Right. And nowadays with the way how we're working in a modern environment, there aren't as many gatekeepers in the sense as we had in the past. But on the other hand, there are a lot of people who are preparing buying decisions, right like when it comes to software, the first person who probably feel That something is not right or the software is not working as it is, is the person's logging into a system in the morning. That's certainly not the person who is carrying a C in their title. Right? So that is something where I'm always going like, Don't neglect the what I call the influence of a buying decision, or the people were bringing up the problem. The problem if there is a problem, I mean, there are there other political reasons why software suites are getting ripped out and replaced and it might come down from the top, but often enough when it comes to functionality that is coming from the people working with it every single day. So you need to have communication plans to literally come from both sides.
Lynn:And you're actually selling something that isn't, you know, sign on the dotted line, deliver it on Monday, like selling software is this idea of a lot of integration and a lot of complexity. A lot of players there's people at all levels In lots of departments who get affected by the way the software works.
Heike:Right?
Lynn:Yeah. And a lot of times the clients I'm working with, believe it or not, are the ones who are also having to, like I've seen entire companies put in software, I'll use one of your competitors by way of example, Salesforce. And they'll put the whole suite in, and yet they don't deal with the adaptive side of the change. They handle, technical side, which is, okay, we've done all the blocking and tackling to get this software up on everybody's desktop, we've done our training, here's how you fill it out, here's how you use it. And it still falls flat because people haven't adapted to what it is to actually use a software that robust and that that actually in a lot of ways disempowers them because if it's used Well, it means a lot of the information you've been carrying around in your head is now ready access to anybody who is sharing your customer.
Heike:Yeah. And and that also leads back to what we've talked earlier about when it comes to change. Again, it's the why, and the adapt
Lynn:being able to adapt to the change in the users. Yes, I know why they're more likely to actually use the thing.
Heike:Exactly. And that that is also where it comes from marketing side talking to the user of a software, that they come to work and they need the software to solve a problem for them. That or make their life easier. Having a process made easier and more smoothly. So that comes back to a lot of best practices. Because nobody in the software development industry is coming up and getting up in the morning. It's like, you know what, I just thought about this great function that I'm going to develop it I don't know why but get a doughnut and that's That's not the thing is it usually comes from a demand of what people need to do what they need to solve for, or really to accommodate best practices in the industry or in the subject or whatever. And if, if you help with the information about best practices, how to explain the why, as a software vendor, that is where you get the user in to that adapting mode, on the new software,
Lynn:when when I one of the things you know, you talked earlier about with change sometimes or just just having bad days, you just sort of talked about allowing the humanity and to me up with change, and along with allowing humanity is the sort of the idea of allowing for emotions, you know, people when they go through change. There's always a change curve. This oftentimes starts with exactly that question, which is, no we don't we can keep things like they are healthy. are a fine. And I think our brains are generally lazy in a way that says, you know, let's quickly as possible reach some kind of status quo that we don't have to change that just what the brain does. Pretty soon after that people will go into some form of emotional turmoil. I've seen everything from realizing that, you know, we when we did one of our mergers in the bank in Texas, they were so upset because it was in a time when we hadn't done this very much that people the new CEO sent everybody a yellow rose and a single vase yellow rose of Texas to welcome them to the new company. And yet at the same time, most people were going to lose their jobs out in those offices. Those yellow roses were literally thrown on the floor and and dash people were so upset and sad and angry. And I think people do get sad and angry. Probably not. That was a pretty dramatic example. But from what I have seen people do go through mood shifts, they go through awarenesses sometimes they have realized they have to stop Traveling, or they have to stop traveling. Or and those are very simple ones or they recognize other things. Bottom line being you out, you kind of go through an emotional change curve where it takes some going I call it going through the swamp until people start to accept what's happening. How do you let allow people through that part and yet still at the same time? You know, we can't go cry in our oatmeal without getting the work done. How do you manage that? Or do you even find that that's a problem with with your situation or people are the changes? They're so adept already so adapted to it that that you don't have as much of that.
Heike:So we don't have as much as those extreme reactions. But certainly, yes, there are those moments of humanity. So for for example, for my team, a lot of processes are changing. We are a larger team. We have a larger product portfolio now We need to take care of teams around us have changed too. So that is not only within our own team, but teams around us have changed are constantly changing. We're not done with it is everlasting change going on there right now, all with a common goal. But it takes time you cannot flip a switch. So what would my team, for example is looking at is a very intense workload, because we've also changed the way we are approaching our marketing plan this year, and how we're building out and then we are changing the platforms we're bringing our campaigns on. That is a lot of learning curve, not only for my team, but also with our web team we are working with who'd never done a deal dealt with campaign work before, which is totally different than building a web page for something which is out there for a while. And it's search engine optimized, and so on so forth. And then you have those demand generation pages which are shorter left and serve a different purpose, half less words because they encourage an action and so on so forth.
Lynn:So, real quick, I want to hit a pause because a lot of people don't know what campaigns are. So what in the marketing world just again, kitchen English, what is a campaign? And how is that different than just ongoing marketing.
Heike:So a campaign is a set a set of marketing activities around a certain topic for a distinct period of time.
Lynn:So the middle and end,
Heike:yes, it has a beginning, a middle and an end. And for us, especially a campaign has different ways into the same direction. So we might promote something over email, but we also will promoting social media, we might have an event leading into it, and so on and so forth. It all comes together on the web page where we really want to have people taken an action.
Lynn:And give me an example of what taking an action is. I'm guessing it's more than just signing up their email for a newsletter.
Heike:Yes, so, ideally, my most favorite action is filling in the Contact Us form. I want to talk to you that would be my phone number. Yeah. So that I mean, that is the that is the gold standard of whatever you can achieve in marketing if the customer or the prospect is coming to you and said, okay, I've heard everything now I want to talk to you. Right. That would be the ideal stage. The the other actions we are really driving them to is downloading a research report. Mm hmm. Exploring videos, we've tried to offer different types of content. Because not everyone is the same. Some people like to watch videos other people like to read and offer offer a menu of things of certain pieces within our page in order to do something. Mm hmm. Because once they have done something, we can progress in our campaign and said, Okay, now they have done this, what is the next step? Right? So they signed signed up for,
Lynn:and by doing that thing, they basically said to you, I'm in I'm willing to be in a conversation with you. I'm not going to stay a passive consumer of your research report or your videos for free, but I might actually be one of your customers someday.
Heike:Exactly. At least it tells me it's I guess I'm interested in what you have to say. Yeah. Yeah.
Lynn:And that's where the content comes in. I Guess is absolutely very much pulling together interesting things that people want to hear. Yes. Okay, so that explains a campaign. So I know I kind of diverted your your train of thought there. But I think it's really useful to know the difference. It was something I had to get my head around when I first started understanding, just basic marketing one on one is, there's to me Actually, my definition marketing has become clear communication of what I offer to the people who might want it.
Heike:That is a very good definition. And for for me in that larger environment of a large corporation is what I see. my team's job is to prepare a potential customer with all the information they need to have to a certain topic that they are ready to talk to sales and that sales can pick up the conversation where we left it in marketing. So really giving a prospect the information they need to have a conversation with sales. Because there's nothing more weird if somebody is calling you out of the blue and saying like, hey, I want to talk to you about this and there's not and you go like, Yeah, but I don't. Oh, I have absolutely no interest in that.
Lynn:Right? Well, you talk about unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsubscribe on the email. I've reached the point Russ and I have where we almost don't want to have our phone ring. Yeah, but every now and then I will pick up the phone. I actually gave my number one day to somebody I bought two things based on to get their thing I put my phone number in, I got a phone call and I ended up buying the product. And in one case, they sold me way too much product because what ended up happening is of course once I had the phone number and went from marketing to sales and the sales people Did not qualify me I bought something that was way way over the head of a small business like mine. Mm hmm. And I had aspirations of needing something like that but to me it was a little bit like buying a size for pants which I'll never be and saying okay, well I'll lose some weight. So I can wear the size for pants. It was never gonna fit.
Heike:Yeah,
Lynn:you know the lynn of size four for those of you who don't know me, I'm five nine, I'm 140 pounds. I'm more like a size eight. I'm five nine and wearing a size four on either a supermodel or I've got you know, some serious white problems. So that was the business case and what I'm leading up to with you or the thought is what that also means I'm holding my hands together that means the handshake between marketing and sales, in your case and with other departments in almost any company has to be so rock solid that you You all are in sync, so that when somebody touches the customer, they they feel like they're talking to the company and not mention a bunch of random people.
Heike:Yeah, that would be the absolute. The Holy Grail. That would be the Holy Grail. Yeah. So meaning it always could be optimized and could be better. But at least we're coming to that point where we're talking about the same topic. And, and the, the prospect is not getting into a sales conversation totally out of the blue.
Lynn:Right. Right. Well, I mean, the the interesting thing, like back in the day when I used to do a lot of process work in in the big company, the thing we always were trying to remember and you're literally in this business is the customer experience. Because whatever the process is, I don't care whether you're, you know, going down The line is subway or selling complex software. In our case, you're selling the suite of bank services. The customer doesn't want to think of you as a bunch of different departments. They want you as one organization that has everything at their fingertips to serve you as that one organization. And when you don't fulfill that when there is a break, and that handoff, whatever that looks like, like I've recently with with a bank that shall remain unnamed, because I like my current banker, but their compliance department but he couldn't even talk to closed one of my related business accounts just summarily with, even though the information that they were asking for was in route and so talk about not feeling like the company understood me right. It was like two different departments completely conflicting odds. So what is your take on how to create From the inside that kind of experience, like, I'm sure it's something you have to struggle with and your team does. I'm sure the CEO of Oracle does, how do we get everybody marching in an alignment so that we show up as one organization or customers?
Heike:If I would have the solution for that will be great.
Lynn:The frustration in it?
Heike:Yeah, it is. It is not always easy. I think one of the key things is generally communication, communication, communication communication. As you can imagine, it gets immensely complex, if you're talking about large, large corporations. Yeah,
Lynn:with very complex software,
Heike:with very complex software and so on, so forth. So it is a everlasting challenge and it will always be changed in progress. Yes, we have software which helps us win But as long as the people themselves are not adapting to it, and do not understand the why. And it will always have somewhat of its shortcoming. I mean, there are certain things where I'm as a consumer, I'm having my moments where I'm like, yeah, guys, you could do that better. Where there would be simple software solutions for it. For example, I mean, you probably have experienced that. So you are looking at something on Amazon. And you bought it. And then you get an email Two days later, it's like, Hey, are you interested in in this?
Lynn:I just bought it up.
Heike:Yeah, I bought it. You have it in your system.
Lynn:Yeah. And that's that's just that's just bad programming in it. Right. like somebody's just missing.
Heike:Yeah, that was also
Lynn:had the other ones which is You know, you've looked at this three times, you know, might you want to pull the trigger. And, you know, most of the time is not even something I wanted. So I have to do something. Usually I just tell them to quit showing me that I had. That's the other thing, by the way that this has has to be bringing up to mind for the people who are listening is those creepy experiences, where they feel like they talked about something and it showed up on their social media feed? Is that actually happening? Are computers listening to us? Or is it because we've talked about it, but we're also doing all the other things online that would indicate that we're about to need, for example, not in my case, of course, a baby bassinet or, I mean, what did show up for me was when we were building out some of the cabinets cabinets. I was looking for something, maybe at Home Depot or something. I was looking for understate cabinet of a certain dimension. And for the next year, I got so many ads from so many companies about just bathroom cabinets.
Heike:Yeah, I yeah, I mean Certainly if you're doing if you're doing an activity on the internet that is that is recognized. And you actually can see it in in your browser. There are software tools. There's one's called ghostery. You can it's a little plugin, you can install it and just goes through he
Lynn:goes, it goes like it goes with dry eye.
Heike:Yeah. Okay. And it's it's interesting if you install it and you see you see when you're going on a web page, it shows you how many trekkers are on that web page and what's tracked and so that is just if you want to have fun with it and see what's tracked. That explains a lot where inflammation like this is coming up. If for the phone listening question, I am not sure and I do I don't have an answer to that. Which I know okay. But I can tell you as a marketer, I do not have anything voice controlled in my house. Not not anything which is voice controlled in a sense of I do not need to hit a button before because that that Siri on my phone for example is said to she is not listening. I cannot call her up Hey Siri is I need to hit a button first because the moment she I have her listening for this convenient yell out Hey Siri, do this and that. She wouldn't listen all day. Mm hmm. Which I find creepy. I don't treat her as a person. I say thank you to her. I do too.
Lynn:And to Alexa I have I have Alexa down in my art studio because I do clay pottery and my hands are covered with mine. So I like to be able to say Alexa turn off and on. But the only conversation that's happening in that room outside of me talking directly to Alexa is either my TV might be on. Normally Alexa won't when that's happening, my or I'm muttering to myself about why I can't get my pottery to work. So well, like some might be hearing me cuss and so forth. But in the rest of my house, I don't have Alexa listening for that very reason. Because I, you know, just because they say they're not listening doesn't mean somebody can't plug into that software and listen to what's happening in my house. I think they'd be bored to tears if they were listening. But yes, I don't really want the IRS.
Heike:Yeah, that is the thing and I mean, it goes together with you know, two aspects of it is one, I would think like a you always need to think about if somebody wants to be malicious with data like that, they would need to have significant power to plow through that. And but on the other hand, people are pretty malicious with a lot of software. Yeah. So why push it if it is not needed?
Lynn:Right? That's right. So, um, so I wanted to ask on the, like, what is your, you know, kind of when you're wrestling with things as a leader, and especially because you're managing up, you're managing down, you're managing change. you're managing a lot of complexity in your role, and I think a lot of people probably are identifying with this but with where you sit, what is it that you wrestle with the most as a leader?
Heike:What am I wrestling the most with as a leader? I think it's really finding that balance. Between managing up and down, okay? And I, I, personally, I, I'm wrestling a lot with myself. And that that being is I work my way in the marketing world up from I mean, I'm coming from a banking background. But then once I got into marketing, I've worked up my way through the entire staircase of marketing. So I'm pretty much used to be hands on. And I'm feeling very, I have my bliss. If I'm going through big databases and spreadsheets and stuff like this, it's just good for me. It's my mind one of this from a distance
Lynn:book spreadsheet that you manage are beyond
Heike:him. So but what I'm wrestling with as a leader is to find the balance of getting Getting out of the weeds because I can stuff to do managing up takes time to but be close enough to what my team is going through to not only not office like yeah, I hear I hear but really understand where their pain is or where they successes are. It's not always everything is painful is I mean, sometimes they were really good things happening. And rather than more often than not and but really understand what they achieved, because I think it's also very important if your team is shaving something to talk about it. And the most important point is to give the kudos to the team and have them having presenting their solution they found for something or their big achievement, even if it is a skip level. So if we are having an all hands and My team came out with a great idea. I want that to present it, I do not need to be there and present it as a manager. And it's not that I cannot present it or don't want to present it is they came up with it. They should have the voice. Yeah.
Lynn:Yeah. And you know that that whole that, you know, so there really are at least two balancing acts you talked about in there, which is, I think managing up and managing down, but also managing boots on the ground versus 30,000 foot strategic level, like how do you scale from your viewpoint? Because one of the things that for sure, I'm sure you've experienced this, the higher you go, the longer your decisions really live. So you're not making decisions day to day you're making decisions that are for the next year, five years, sometimes 10 years as you go higher in an organization whereas your team, maybe managing things at a different time scale. And I don't know what your your timescales are, but I do know But typically they they get closer and closer to minute by minute, the lower you go into an organization.
Heike:Yeah, and I mean, if I put that in perspective to where my team is, and we've talked about campaigns before. So on the 30,000 foot level, we came up with a campaign framework, say like, these are the types of campaigns we're running. These are their runtimes. They're going there are some campaigns we're running for, like 6789 months, and then we have, which I would say these are the big aircraft carriers off your messaging. And then we have those little speedboats, which are reacting to what's happening in the market is what what is the message juicer we need to get out? Or is there a quick promotion we need to do for something and we have a framework how are we capturing that in order for us to develop process to so my team is living in in that framework, so they are Working on those big campaigns, and then they working through that and they launch it, and then they need to go through the next one because that's how they are built out. Mm hmm. Well, I have the job to oversee that, really, this framework is coming together. So I need to elevate and going back on the 30,000 foot level and say, okay, what's the market? So, and that is, that is, I think, a lot of what I need to do and also report back when we're like, okay, in the managing up hard to really show are we are we on track with our plan? Is that what we set out to do? Are we doing it? What I personally find very, very important as a leader. There's one thing I absolutely cannot stand as a person as an employee as just a human being I absolutely cannot be micromanaged. It's putting my inner child out my inner my fences are going up. Yeah, is don't micromanage me. And that is something which is a balancing act for me as a manager to my team. I mean, it comes back is like treat people the way you want to be treated. So I don't want to be micromanage, I don't micromanage, but how much management do certain members of my team need some need more, some need less? And that is that is a very, very fine act, to balance to is is giving the management they need, but do not overburden yes and comes back to trust to?
Lynn:Yes, well, I feel like that's true because everybody needs and depending on where they are in their development, everybody needs a little bit more or less You know, guidance. I like to throw things over the wall because I like things to be thrown over the wall to me. I much like you. I don't like to be micromanaged. But there are certain things like, you know, I've been learning how to ride horses. And I realized at the beginning of learning how to put a saddle on, which I thought I knew how to do, because I learned once when I was in middle school, and that was it, you know, a lot of details to putting a saddle on and one day I actually sat with the horse up all by myself, I was kind of all proud because all the buckles were in the right place. And I wasn't micromanaged. But as we walked out of the bar, and the person I was riding with us, it just Can you check the saddle and she said, this saddle is sitting at least four inches too far back. And if you got on and he would probably have, but thank you for micromanaging me. I don't want to have to learn that lesson. And so it's like where to find that balance. I think is actually so interesting because I think you have to have an element of listening to the situation and to the person. And, you know, like, I know, I've had clients, one of my clients is a hospital, who during the beginning of COVID, you know, all had to go into micromanagement where they were meeting every single day saying, What's the plan? What are we doing? This is new, what rooms, how many nurses how do we you know, rotate, because you have to micromanage at that stage. Several months later, the micromanaging was gone. So, how do you personally emotionally manage through those moments where you are micromanaged whether you like it or not, does it? Do you have any coping tools for people to get through that because it happens to all of us at some point. I mean,
Heike:when I micromanage when I'm being micromanage professionally, in in my job environment, is I my coping mechanism is usually going to the person said, Don't micromanage me. Leave me alone. Yep. In a nice professional way. Yeah. But I'm very clear about that. Because for me it is disruptive. Mm hmm. And it makes my work less productive. And the work quality goes down. Right? And then there's there's also, I mean, I find often enough, a very good mechanism to shut down micromanagement in a professional environment is asking why again? Mm hmm. Being a three year old child, why do you want to why, why?
Lynn:Why is it necessary for you to know every single thing I'm doing?
Heike:Exactly. So that is, that is one thing if I'm, if I'm working with my team, I have to say I have a very, very strong direct reports team. So the management is working for me are with me since a while we went through a lot of change were very good relationship with each other. And they know how I'm taking I know how they're taking that helps a lot if you're together since a while. And that is that is I would say the buffer in between. So I'm not necessarily in the position that I do need to micromanage anyone. Right.
Lynn:Right. That's, that's very useful because you know them and you know what they can do?
Heike:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's the trust. And there is also they know what the level of detail is, I need to know, in a sense of what I need to have in order to report so we just lately brought back a an interesting system. We're doing it on slack. As it is, for us quick communication what I'm doing with my not only direct report I have, I have a what I call players team. There are a few people in there which are not directly reporting to me but to one of our managers but playing a vital role in managing projects, and so on, so forth. So we have the system off the three by threes by threes. Literally every week, a quick run rundown on three things you focus on last week, three things you're focusing on this week and three things you're focusing on next week. It's a very interesting thing to do. And I took it over from a manager I had in the past. Because it directs us thinking you need to focus your thinking is among the zillion things I'm doing in a week. What are the real three important things right And
Lynn:is that something you do as part of a meeting where people are like reporting out Something people send you in an email or a text or
Heike:they we have we have a, we have a three by three Slack channel for it.
Lynn:Oh, okay, so everybody in a Slack channel, everybody knows to put their three by three by three in.
Heike:Yeah, by Monday lunchtime. I need the three by three by threes because that is the time where I'm starting to update slides for meetings I have where I might need to have information, what my team's up to. And so the majority of the team is doing it somewhere on Friday before they leave. Sure. And it makes it way easier for everyone. To everyone can read it so everyone knows who is on what. Yeah, and it makes it easy for me to get the quintessence of what's going on. I'm ready to report in other team meetings and reports I have to get
Lynn:well it also gives you A window into what they think their top three are. because like you said, so many others. And if somebody's priorities are not in alignment or things shift, I know for me a lot of times things shifted without me knowing it like my my boss would say, Oh, wait, we're already past that. And he would have forgotten to tell me or something. Yeah, so this is a good way to keep everybody in alignment on what is the is the priority today as fast as things are moving. That's a great practice three by three by three.
Heike:Yeah.
Lynn:Good. Um, that's a great, so what, as we close, I always like to ask sort of what advice or requests you would have of my audience of the people who are listening. You know, almost everybody's dealing with change, almost everybody in some form or fashion has either had to lead change or accept change. They didn't, they didn't choose. So that's kind of been a big theme of this conversation. What you do, also, just the general idea of communicating, which is what marketing is all about really is communication. So in sort of what kind of advice would you have? What kind of requests would you have of my audience as they sort of wrestle with these topics in their own lives?
Heike:I think the key advice is if change is thrown at you ask, what's the goal and what's the Why? Because the understanding on why something is happening and what is the achieved goal helps you as a person to really adapt to making this change happen and support it better because as a manager, you are requested to support the changes coming. And then also on the on the other part of the coin, really make sure that you always think about that the people working for you are in the literally same situation just as another level change is getting thrown at them. And they might not like it. But they have a right to know why it is happening. And if you're treating them as partners in that change, and have them the understanding, what's the direction we are running in, that helps really for them also to adapt to change and be prepared that there are moments where people are not happy with it. Let them have that conversation with you be open and open to listen. And sometimes good ideas are coming out of that.
Lynn:Really, you know, what I what I've often learned is that people can accept it a lot more if they feel heard, even if they don't agree with it. But if somebody will actually listen to their point of view, you don't have like, I know I used to have this kinda crazy belief that if I listened, and I didn't agree with the person, but if I actually listened, then I'd have to change my mind. And, you know, sometimes you do need to change your mind, but you don't have to. We can I can still listen to you and not agree with you. And it doesn't mean that we're enemies either.
Heike:Yeah, exactly. And sometimes you just need to go with the flow without thinking. Hmm. I mean, that not being randomly following it totally weird, but sometimes stuff is thrown at you and you just need to deal with it in the situation.
Lynn:Yeah. Yeah. And it's and being able to do both be able to raise your hand and go Hey, wait a minute, why? And also go Okay, for the moment I'm going to go with it. That's another balancing act that people have to work their way through.
Heike:Yeah, and literally not. Not declaring all lost just because something happened. Would you didn't expect so I had I had an accident. Pull from my athletes life on that. I was racing in a triathlon in July, and I was on the bike park going up a hill, stupid me shifting in my bike while I was on full power on my pedals, which made the chain jump off. So all of a sudden I'm on that steep hill. And I'm literally pedaling into the emptiness there was nothing there was no chain anymore. Oh,
Lynn:yeah, you might have never been on a bike going up a hill and realizing all of a sudden it's a little bit like driving a ski boat and not having it under power. You kind of lose your momentum and everything.
Heike:Yeah. So first first thought of course what was crap. And then, okay, um, clip out, get the shoes of the pedals because that that is not a good experience going down slow motion. And I was going on the site, and my inner my mental part of me declared this race as done. Oh, first of all, I thought this was it. And then I was standing there. And I have to say I'm usually pretty self sufficient when it comes to bikes, I'm just crying for my husband. He wasn't there and he wouldn't have been allowed to fix my bike. I would have been against the rope. So I would need to deal with this situation. I was like, okay, so Breathe in, breathe out, nobody's here can help you. And you have two chances. You can push up your bike that hill and walk the rest the three miles off the bike course. Or you fix that down problem at your hands. The chain is still there, it is not torn. So put it back on and Theoretically I know how to put it back on. But then in the heat of the moment it kind of forget it and so on and so forth. So at the end of the day, I got the chain back on, went back on my bike was pretty miffed with myself that because it was my fault that chain went off. So went into transition went out on the run. It was hard. And I was you know, is like, yeah, okay, just finish this race. So I, I have a steep uphill to go up in the race. And it was like, Okay, I'm just walking through mate eight next aid station. I have a good sip of water. I usually would have done that I would have run through it. Right? Because my mind said was, this race is lost, it's done. So at the end of the day, I finished the race. A came in third in my age group. I saw my times and saw that my bike split was actually faster than my last race. Even so I stopped at the hill. Play bike mechanic Wow It was go like, darn it if I would have known what my bike time was I certainly wouldn't have been so sloppy on the run. So what I really what it really taught me is the race is over when it's over. And over because you think it is over, it is it's over if you're either out or you cross the finish line until then you push no matter what happens. And that is I think something we also need to look into when change happens because sometimes changes they can and sometimes small things happen we'd have big effects. So that is where you go is like deal with it in the moment is don't give up because something changed.
Lynn:You know, um, you and I both waterski as well. And what that is making me think of is, of course a triathlon goes over hours of water ski pass goes over 20 seconds or less the froze at 16 seconds and I got to watch Nate Smith ski who for those of you who don't who aren't skiers Nate Smith is is is dominant in waterskiing or has been over the last few years is about any sport has ever had a dominant person so getting to watch him in the boat what I was looking for was the secret and and the first thing for the first time I actually decided not to video I'm and look at his body I actually watched only his face. And what I discovered was that he was making as many mistakes as anybody I was watching his face and as I guess I was watching his body too because I could see his mistakes as he would bobl as he would have to correct even from his first pass. The third to have passed was not perfect. It looks kind of perfect. But what I realized is he's just shedding his mistakes. Like the minute he makes a mistake. He is also looking at what's next. What's next. What's next. And at the end of the past, I remember looking over to Austin Abel, who's also a pro skier and was driving. I said, Austin may 6 looks to me like the only thing Nate is doing is just asking what's next? Like, he made a bunch of mistakes. He just didn't let him stop him. And I think about how many times I've let my thoughts both ways. Last week, I was running a pass. And I came around three ball. I was like, wow, I am totally in this pass. did not make it to the next ball, not because I couldn't have it because I stopped to think I'm either succeeding, or sometimes it's because I'm failing. But I think you just hit on like the secret of the universe is stay with it.
Heike:Yeah, yeah, that's, that's absolutely. The thing. I mean, it is a funny thing. And you said it's 20 seconds in the water ski pass. I am always amazed how much stuff can go through my brain in 2020 seconds.
Lynn:You can actually like you can write the whole novel war in peace.
Heike:That's totally it is Warren peace out there. Absolutely. I came to this this point to in my skiing in the beginning it was really is like yeah, don't give up stay with it and which resulted as you had witnessing into some pretty significant crashes were like, yeah, stay with it but but under all circumstances
Lynn:you have to get back in good ski position as you're staying with it or you will crash.
Heike:Exactly what I found lately it's a change in mindset is you something is going wrong in that in that ski pass and you let yourself in that slipped second, be pulled out of position. Because you have this inner slump. It's like, Oh, that was no good. Like, Mm hmm. And if you're not coming to that point where you're even thinking that is you're not getting pulled out of position, right? Because
Lynn:it's the thought of the inner slump that knocks us off. It's not the thing that not dissolved. It's the fact that we let ourselves have the inner slump or the that was bad or whatever form of beating ourselves up we do.
Heike:Yes, exactly. So it comes back to to one of those concepts in one of your earlier blog post which was all about this alignment before pressure. Yes, if we are aligned and stay aligned, in no matter what we are doing is the pressure can literally throw at us what at one it will have some effect, but it will not completely pillows apart. Exactly.
Lynn:And if we if we get out of alignment, get back in alignment before we re add pressure, because yes, seeing like what happens to hit create a lot of bad crashes is somebody will will still pressure against the boat but the ski is not in the right position. It's not aligned. And that's when we have cartwheels. That's when skis Do you know bad things like go one way while our ankle goes another or things like that. And yeah back that constant recalibration and watching Nate do that. These were tiny corrections By the way, we're not talking about the big jerky moves that we are early, right? These are minuscule because that's the difference between the elite and the non elite athletes for sure is they are making very, very tiny corrections at all times. But the mindset of never going into that inner slump of saying, Oh, that was bad. Now I have to come back. And there's a lot of skiers who are very good. A lot of athletes of all kinds a lot of us in work, they're all of all kinds. We're very good after our inner swamp we have a good way of reality rallying, coming back around, but what how much better would we be if we just shared the mistake rather than fake about the mistake and then share it?
Heike:Yeah, and I, I have a lot of experience with that also in rum training, where you know, they're always like days which are Good and others aren't so good. But it's a lot of the mindset on how you're setting out. I mean, training Florida in the summer is kind of special fun, by a certain
Lynn:kind of special fun.
Heike:So in the mornings, the temperatures around 78 right now, but the humid humidity is around 95 98%. Which it can be as cool as it want to be. But with this humanity, humanity it is it's a different thing. So I can get out of going like five. So you make, yeah, does it's going to be humid until the end of September. So just cut that out. And then I can start running and then it can start listening into my body, which you should to a certain degree because you don't want to run into an injury. But you can find stuff if you're listening hard enough. Like oh, yeah, it's my hamstrings. squeaky Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure it's quick. It's a miserable run it Yeah, the squeaky because no one yet. Come on. So it's those things Which I also tried to apply into my work life is listening enough but listen for what's really important, but don't try to find something which is not there.
Lynn:And over and under react, you know this is yet you know you and I've talked a little bit we didn't talk about it at all in this podcast which is fine but the idea of invisible tools which include listening, patience, allowing curiosity, but in all of those there's a there's a place where you can either over or under react. And the tools work when you and part of the the magic of the tools is listening or learning how to operate in such a way that you don't over or under react, but you let the situation tell you what to do. And,
Heike:yes, absolutely. And then then, from what I'm doing in my athletic part of my life is is really learning to trust a process. So I'm working with a coach for triathlon because I am a not a athletic coach, I'm a marketer. So there there are people who have a different field of studies and are really good at that. And then I also, I don't have time to finagle with training plans, which can become very complex, and so on and so forth. So, running slower to become faster. sounds totally counterintuitive. But what I've certainly learned is just trust the process. There is some science behind that. Trust it and that is, that is where I'm thinking to is what we need to learn into, or transport from stuff like this into our professional lives. There's a reason why There's a marketing department there's a reason why there's a sales department. There's a reason why there is a finance department do not second guess consistently the pros in other departments. You can ask questions and you can ask for wise and you always as I encouraged enough, I think in this podcast is asked for the why. Try to understand why you're doing things, but then also trust the process. There are people there were pros in their field. I do not tell somebody in sans how to do their job, because I'm not a salesperson. I trust them that they know what they do.
Lynn:You know, you're you're it's so interesting that the idea of running slower to run faster in a triathlon or running context, lines up perfectly with a principle we had in process with improvement around, go slow to go fast. Because there is so much rework. When people don't understand the handoffs, they don't trust the other departments. They rush to get something out the door without understanding that Doing that extra quality control check or taking that moment, in my case, for example, saddling to like, remember how to put the saddle in the right place? Where does it go relative to the muscles in the withers and so forth. And so that concept of to go slow to go fast. I think it ties back, in least in my case, to that survival mode of getting caught up in trying to reach the end game so I can get out of the uncertainty of if I'm going to get to the end game. Like there's a kind of funny little uncertainty that happens of my goal is to get the horse settled, or my goal is to do this ride or my goal is to run this campaign, whatever it might be forgetting that, once I have that picture, going frame by frame, sort of not not with perfection, but with impeccability will actually lead me to a much better result. I might feel like I'm going slower, but I'm going to actually end up going faster.
Heike:Yes, and that is that is actually once you Once you've done that work of going slower in order to go faster means you get all the processes handoffs and everything right. Build conditioning and and experience and so on and so forth. That comes down to my favorite concept of my work, where I'm saying my work gets really effective and efficient, once it is repeatable, reliable and scalable. Yes. Because that is setting the foundation to really go fast. Yes.
Lynn:Because as long as it's one off, as long as it takes a certain special touch or whatever, it's not going to be repeatable, reliable or scalable.
Heike:Yeah, but it's also important to to note here is that is not an invitation to become stale, and just do the same old, same old and getting the rights.
Lynn:There's no way you and I could either either one of us do that because we both like to invent new things too much. My problem is, I don't get to that relate repeatable, reliable, scalable very easily because I can always find a new or better way to do something. That's where I find myself fairly out of balance. You know, is it going into the? Because I maybe because a part of me says I've been that's boring.
Heike:Yeah, I mean that that happens. But, you know, you just just go with that. And once you have it in a way it is repeatable and reliable. And then you can scale you can bring enough innovation into it to scale. Yes, but you need to have a solid foundation. It's for example, if you tie that back to writing if you do not know how to get on a horse, you can't write it.
Lynn:Well, and I'm having what I've learned in this process through all these details, is a solid foundation in this and I'm sure in horseback riding is the this Talking about, but in anything that waterskiing we've certainly found this, there are many aspects. So with horseback riding, you have the horse's mind and you have the riders mind. And you have different aspects of you do with your body, you have all the different types of tack, you have the difference between being on the trail versus being out being in an arena. And, you know, my early belief was what just trail riding was no big deal. You just taking a horse on a trail, you're not asking him to jump, you're not asking him do spins or some other fancy thing. No, what you're asking them to do is be alone with you are a couple of other horses out in the wilderness where the survival animal might feel like it has to run because that's how it survives. And knowing how to understand those foundational things. More people get hurt on the trail by far than get hurt in arenas, because they don't have the foundation of horsemanship.
Heike:You Yeah, and that is the thing. And then there are external influences. And we have that in every kind of situation. Yeah, so I personally can ride my bike perfectly fine. But I had a situation this week where I just passed the deer in the state pack Park, which was standing on the side of the road, and they usually don't flinch. They are used to us. Yeah, but then a few yards down. I came across a squirrel. And the stupid squirrel was already across the road in front of me it was already on the other side of the road and then it started to do its girl dance.
Lynn:Oh, we may come back towards you again.
Heike:You I want to go back and forth, back and forth. There's somebody coming in so I was gonna say girl, just stay where you are. You cross the road. Everything is good. Don't come into my bike. I don't know what I would have done if that's girl would have come back. Yeah, I mean, you probably would have ended me in the squirrel. So that is the thing where you always have external influences you cannot foresee.
Lynn:Yes. And that's another big balancing act that people often forget to look at is the inner internal world versus the external world of their company or whatever like this, this entire year of COVID. You know, many people that have had the best internal plans for the external world that was in February, found those plans completely out the window in March. Yeah. So that's another. That's a balancing act. We could probably talk a whole nother podcast on which we won't, because we've actually already gone over an hour and a half. And because as I'm wanting to do I dig, and I want to find out more and more and more, but let me ask a question. How do people if they want to get in touch with you? Is there a way for them to do you have a Twitter handle or Instagram or something like that people can reach out to you I'm sure there'll be some people in this listening that might want to, either, you know, send you some accolades Words of wisdom or something like that, you know, as for your words, do you have a way that you'd have people get a hold of you
Heike:at globalheike?
Lynn:So So start that this is at globalheike, and that is spelled
Heike:h Ei k e
Lynn:ke. And that's on what Instagram or Twitter, Twitter. Okay, Twitter is at globalheike. All right, yeah. And we'll put that in the show notes, of course. But yeah, so send a tweet out to Hika. I'm heiki Newman, if you are so inclined, and really can't thank you enough for being here today.
Heike:Thank you for having me. Great. We'll see you soon.
Lynn:Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
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