#2 Steve Snyder: In Defense of Management
Today’s guest Steve Snyder has been a leader in many domains, first in the Military as a Naval aviator and Commanding Officer, then in Business and now in Academia. We get into how the different contexts in each domain makes a difference in how you lead – and in the contrast between Leadership and Management. Steve is also an athlete and entrepreneur. He has truly learned to flex his skills by being a lifelong learner. There are so many layers in this conversation. Steve shares his secrets of serving in all of these capacities, and especially in a management capacity, which he believes is an essential element to success that is all too often overlooked.
Lynn: 0:02
welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now here's your host, Lynn Carnes
Lynn: 0:20
Lynn Cards here and welcome back to creative spirits unleashed. Today's guest is a man of many talents, and he's a lifelong learner, much like myself. Steve Snyder. If we had any theme for this podcast, it was context. You're gonna hear a couple of our context stories and how changing context, either with words or with the setting. We could literally change the experience of the people involved. Who is Steve Snyder? He is currently a defense contractor with the U. S Navy and NATO, and he's the chief operating officer, also known as the CEO of a nutrition education company founded by his wife Cameo. Now, if that's not enough, he's also a college professor at Regent University. And, as if that's not enough, he has served our country both in active duty and in the reserves. Steve is a 30 year Navy veteran who flew combat missions in Desert Storm, was the commanding officer for five different Navy commands and spent a year in Afghanistan just to name a few of his many accomplishments He's also a mini sported athlete like me. Hey, does triathlons, golf, bowling, skiing, racquetball, scuba diving, fly fishing, kayaking, sailing just to name a few. I know he's a good water skier cause he skied on are like a couple of years ago, might have pulled a hamstring on that no fault of his own. But he also in our experience together we met at Bank of America doing change management and for me doing change management, which is almost an oxymoron. Um, in that setting felt like active duty. We tell some of our stories in this podcast about what it was like to be standing in front of people who really did not want to change or us to make them change. So we also in this conversation get into some fun stuff. As I said at the beginning of this introduction, we talk a lot about the value of context, and you're also going to hear about our shared love for one of my favorite shows of all time. The Big Bang theory. Steve's explanation of what the auto trump's began to drool, which is from their song what that meant, how he's now really fulfilling a lifelong dream and what it looks like toe have balance now. The real meat of this conversation, though, is around the different places in which he's been a leader and how it can look different when it's in different contexts. For example, the military versus corporate versus the academic world. Steve as a huge defender of the role of management, and he dives into the ways management matters and why it's just a CZ important. His leadership. He pointed out some things to me about the dichotomy of the two that I don't really think about that much because I always think about leadership. And so he has some pretty good insights they're worth listening to. Now I have to say this on this podcast. I tried a different recording technique, and, um, actually, my secondary recording technique was used through ah, conference calling technology. And the good news is we didn't lose the recording, the primary method, which I will not name the brand of dropped on us. But the secondary method did work. So the good news is he sounds great as well. The bad news is, I sound like I'm in a cave. Hopefully, it won't be too distracting. You really are just gonna hear two people having a phone call here in this podcast. So please enjoy this super informative conversation with Steve Snyder. So, Steve, welcome to the cat. Thanks. I'm glad you're here. So the white this some conversation got initiated was the other night way discovered that we both have a love of a show that's no longer on the air. The big bang theory? Yes. And you're actually we'll talk to the song to Mae, which I've heard at least 1000 times because I listened to that. I watched every episode of that show. There
Steve: 4:31
will be no I actually tried to sing it to you, but when I tried to saying it found And it's actually better for most ability here is with speaking because my singing is horrible. So I'm glad that you interpreted That is me talking to you.
Lynn: 4:47
So I thought I actually did think you were speaking it. You. So what's interesting is I don't know if you've ever tried to do this. By the way you speak the alphabet like proved to somebody that you have not had too much to drink. It's a lot of years singing than it is to speak it. I'm just gonna tell you not from my direct experience from somebody very close to trust, not my meter. So I've
Steve: 5:16
heard I've heard an expression that has asked Why is it the alphabet in that order? Is it because of the song?
Steve: 5:24
It's gotta be right said today
Lynn: 5:29
So not a thing that you said as you were speaking. This zone was something about the autotrophs began to drool and only I like a scientist out businesses type academic type person like you would actually know what that meant. I've always heard it. I never knew what autotrophs waas. I pictured it when I may not even be saying it right. But I pictured like some kind of, like try Sarah Palin kind of goddess alone when it said autotrophs began to drool. So tell me what it actually means because you you educated me the other night. I want to hear them.
Steve: 6:06
So So if you and so I am now going down the fully deaky power So our patrol is actually a client. And so 11 the authors on its bare naked ladies. So we've got to give after you tore, they were belongs. So when they wrote this when they said the order troves began to drool, well, they actually meant was a plant started to become, And so in order trove actually is a plant. And so when you say the order roast began rule, What that means is the plant actually started to become parables, and that is one of the beauties pine of the the whole intellectual and their multiple standards of that song. But for the bare, naked ladies start to articulate that and that goes back to probably rebuilding years ago. And if you continue and they're they're the veracity of their timeline is incredible heat accurate? So when they say 14 billion years ago, expansion started, Wait, Well, that's the big one. And then if you go back to five billion years ago, well, that kind of about when o. R. On galaxy was formed and then you go about three billion years ago. That's when plants started and so probably too much details. But when they say autotrophs began to drool, what they mean is that plant kingdom that just blows me away when it's so cool that you know, these entertainers took the time to do the You know, the the intellectual research aren't to articulate. This is what it means chemical and and yes, so you and I share the name Kiki, appreciation of Pepsico and what it means going forward.
Lynn: 8:06
What's funny? I have no interest in watching that show. Until I was teaching, the high impact leadership program down in Florida would stop at nothing. And somehow, in one of the programs, something came. One of our clients is somebody mentioned that show, and I looked at them like they were crazy and, you know, you really need to watch it. And I said that looked like this super to show I've ever seen. And they were really adamant to the point where I was willing to go actually watch it and they start at the beginning. If you can't. Well, it just happened to be on when I'm out down. Doing pottery. Every like this time of year is point starts where I have a choice at six o'clock when it gets star. I mean, they're gonna go to bed, or I have to do something that keeps creamed age. So I go down Do pottery turn on the TV Watch big bang theory for, you know, two episodes every every night. That's how I came to watch it all. And pretty quickly I figured out how clever that show is, and the guys that tell me I had to watch it said that everything's after it. So this autotrophs began to drool is but one of the many things that is scientifically accurate in that
Steve: 9:17
right, right? And it is fun, you know. And so you kind of expand a little bit on the the introduction from A So I have my undergraduate is is injuring kid from and there's a whole long winded story behind that. I regret the missed opportunity that at University of Colorado shot off for that university from Bill. But, um, they have an amazing physics for Mom. And many decades ago I was a student. Um, and I and I kind of miss the opportunity. The pulley leverage the opportunity to learn what they had but now fast forward several decades later, even talking with one of my favorite authors. And if you need Hawking's books, if you just listen to him with an out for we acknowledge that's what they do. Mostly, it's amazing the integration of concepts that we have had. I got in the physics because I lose. I love me, Tony. And again, I'm probably gonna lose some of that non geeky people out there. The Newtonian physics made all the sense in the world when we got into the 20th century. What happened between Einstein and Heisenberg and shorting birthday? Kind of. Yeah, good. Close. But not. And there is a tide, a kind of model law to leadership, because what Newton did, And this is sort of a fast forward into some my points what Newton did for physics. They're kind of like what, Taylor president, if you've never heard in television,
Lynn: 11:01
I know. I know that Cedric Tyler. I kind of have an opinion about him because he wasn't he, Mr Efficiency. And he broke all the working parts.
Steve: 11:09
Absolutely. So if you look at the Ford production line, that would kill kill, it was the brain behind that. And if you think about corollary between management, leadership and I can talk more about the difference between those two words here in a second, um and then the scientists Newton was tail. So do me explained everything.
Lynn: 11:37
Did you find this tale was Taylor was Oh, Taylor. Got it. Got it.
Steve: 11:43
Okay, there's There's another guy. His name is 100 day old and they talked about what? The principal's management. How'd you actually set up a production line? How do you get this new? And this is all early 20th century stuff from a management leadership perspective. And those guys were articulating what frankly, Newton did two centuries earlier, Um, pre censored three centuries earlier. And and the physics world, which is let me explain what most of us understand and what Newton did. You know, the apple in the head, right? So there's a very simple explanation and plain gravity and all this kind of stuff that actually got me very excited about physics. That's why I started down that path. And I am still the new king, because what Newton did for science was amazing. And if you listen or read Hawking stuff today, he does a massive nod to Sir Isaac Newton because what it did is it set the fun struck by which we can continue to become more nuance and more informed and and so So anyway, trying to connect it back to our earlier conversation. So So you okay? Psoriatic noting Newtonian physics, which is kind of what they talk about eventually in the 20th century evolved into the other more can't physics, which are important. You know, we wouldn't have the, you know, the iPhone today for work, for the advances of quantum physics and, um, other more advanced physics. But it all started principles that Newton had advocated. And then when I look at leadership, I think with the same way in terms of what Taylor did, what Seo did to say this is how we put the constructs of how we deliver our service is together and have a corollary between those two things. Does that make sense,
Lynn: 13:53
It does? Actually, I don't want one of the reasons I wanted us to have this conversation was the juxtaposition of all the different world that you've lived in and the different context in which you've been a leader. So you've been a later? You and I met in a business contest and I wanted to talk about our contract story, Um, in a second, and then wait. You had come out of the Navy right after right before I had met you. And then I actually went back into service and spent some time in Afghanistan. And now you're in a PhD program and a college professor. So you've also lived in the academic world. So those three types of leadership which I think are all very different contexts. But one of the things that you and I learned years ago when we were working together, we always call the context story. So just for everybody listening, tell our context story as it is pretty cool. And it's something I know that affected me for many years.
Steve: 14:58
Lynn. You want me to tell that? Are you gonna go?
Lynn: 15:00
I want you to tell it, and then all tell, my, you tell got one. And then I'm gonna tell the the skiing version of the context story.
Steve: 15:08
Okay, well, so so I have to actually provide some context to the context for all of our listeners to understand that this was And for those younger listeners, you don't have to correlate your port date to these years. But we're talking in the late 1990. And what was happening is in the banking industry in which birth Lynn and I were massive transformation and you know, a lot of integration and conglomerations of different financial institutions. And Lynn and I were very long locker under the details of it send up connecting together, and And what we decided is that we've gotta figure out a ways we bring these massive organizations together. I think that could say that's right. So Lynn and then those nations back in back of work in 1997 99 years, frankly, was Barnett Bank in Florida That kind of preceded that a little bit than all of those integrations of organizations cause those banks to say we've got to do business. And as we thought about how we're gonna do business differently, the executive leadership of India, the legacy organizations have kind of had to have a different paradigm. And so when I'm in love, we talking, then I'm quite sure how we landed in that face that Lynn and I end up kind of one point saying we got to create an executive programs to make sure that people understood that the future was very different than the back. Yeah, this is not a new thing, but certainly in the late 19 nineties, Foreign and I, we had to figure out a way to create a program. And Jo Lynn and I kind of partner, Look, you're developing this program. We partnered with a company out in Colorado, and one of the key emphasis was that, you know, if you think about what, a bank Dutch, you know, that way anchored on these two turns and its content and context. Yeah, and the hey, there's a bank. Well, yeah, You lend money, your money, you save money, you invest money. All this kind of stuff, that's all the content. But the way you do that, there's a context behind that. And as we were shifting and becoming more national and again for those who go way back, no, there was a day that thanks could not cross state on. So the concept you gotta National Bank was unusual, and so and we were not only moving well past that we're going international due out something, and we had to figure out a way to help our banking leaders understand there's a There's a new way to think about things and there's the content and context and so as we developed this program that Lynn and I facilitated many times, Um, we had to figure out a way to explain what and so the story, content and context is that way would go out to Colorado and you go up into the foothills of Colorado and you see some interesting Robin. And the story of the difference in content context was, if you think about the content being a about one and if you're driving up and we were in Boulder, Colorado, if you're driving up border Panya and then you see a mountain lion, you would say, Well, there's the content that not long the context of seeing it from inside your car driving up Border Canyon kind of gave you a perspective of what that not mine look like. Okay, so now let's ship the context, say, instead of driving a photo, you're riding your bike up border 10 years, and now you see the map well, that contact the contents, the state with the mountain, which had it calls and all that stuff. But the context is a little bit different when you're on your bike reading now, Then finally go to the context of Let's say you're hiking the trail, then you turn the corner And he said about wine with family, for shame. Content what? The context is dramatically different. So that content and context story, I think con shapes. Roy Keane. Um, you know, kind of simplistic when you tell them that in that in that those three scenarios, when you shift business environments across different context, whether those be small business, start up no more crying national conglomerate. The same content can be very differently achieved and must require very different leadership skills to address. So my back I'll turn it over you to get probably a moment. That version of that
Lynn: 20:14
that revelation alive. It's a live Experience I had because several years ago, you know, anybody that knows me knows I'm an avid skier. You skied actually on the like that we own at Mystic Waters and one summer, and it was actually only. This one summer, a turtle would sit on the log a big turtle, like we call him Mr Lucky. At the far end of the lake, almost every time I dropped this big turtle was down there, and one day I dropped down on the end of the lake. Russ was driving me. And I have I have a boot on my ski that rather than being attached like through screws, it's attached like a show ski boot so it can become unclip word, which is which is essential to this story. Because as I got down and dropped and I looked for Mr Lucky, I could not see him. So in the back of my mind, there is sort of like, I don't have a lot of fear of things in the water, But I certainly had an awareness that if he was not on the water, he could be under me. And so as I'm down there with Russ waiting for the water to settle and for me to catch my breath, I started to put my foot in the back binding to get ready to go, and I heard a click and I said, Oh, that's a turtle shell hitting my feet. So I said, Russ, tighten the rope lets get out of here because the last thing I want with Mr Lucky he was a good foot in diameter, right? Come up under me. And so we took off as as we as I As I got up on the water, I sort of noticed that things didn't feel the same as I always did, but did not think anything of it until I turned to cut through the when it pulled out of the gate. No problem. Cut through the awake where I hit my first hard part of the course and I took the worst fall. I think I've ever taken water skiing so bad that I lost my contact and came in, and we're kind of like dazed trying to figure out. Okay, now contact up in my eye. I climb it into my pride, you know? Where's the where's that contract? Never did find it. I'm pretty sure it's if it's in up there in my eyes somewhere, not causing any trouble. So the next day I take off to go buy a new boat. So I went to a different ski lake, like and I'm sitting, you know, get off the dock, getting ready for the boat to pull, meet high, put my foot in the back binding and I hear the same clique now. My first thought was they have turtles too. And then I realize the odds of a turtle surfacing under me on two different ski likes exactly at the same time could not possibly be. And all of a sudden I realized that it was not a turtle story. It was a ski story, for my bindings have failed on me, and I could not get my binding to click strong. So the context literally changed how I did something that could have hurt pretty bad, right? And I it made me think about. And I actually wrote a block about this a few years ago. and this was I think I'm trying to remember if it was before or after you and I were working together. I think it was after I was running credit training at Bank of America and context came back once again when we decided to send a bunch of our our trainees for credit to the sort of elementary lemonade accounting game. Remember that? And so what happened? And this is this is where I really sharpened my awareness. That context literally changes how you experience something. I love the mountain lion, you know, from the car or from up close right. The part. We had two groups of trainees coming through within, You know, a few weeks of each other probably we had to shrink our program from one year to 10 weeks. We were running lots of people through the training program. And what we figured out right away was that half the year used to be spent teaching them accounting. And we had to accelerate where people came out of college learning accounting to do, being able to do it, you know, in a banking context where they could actually really knew what to do with financial things. And What we also learned was because I had gotten A in it at school didn't mean they remembered it. Her really knew how to apply anything. What I found was that this simple little game where you make a lemonade stand and learn how to do accounting from this lemonade stand, you know, actually showed you a bigger, better picture. And you gotta understood the essence of it. And then you could hang with complications, accounting on top of the So we thought it was a great idea. So this is how we told the first group to go. Go do it. We were running that program over the convention center because they had better space, more space for the this particular activity. And it wasn't me. It was one of my my folks on the team, but they just said, Hi, guys. You know, it's Thursday afternoon, Tomorrow, tomorrow's Friday, you're gonna be over the convention center. You're gonna be another having program. We'll see you Monday morning, have fun. So that was the contact, right? Well, Monday morning, you know, we had 60 Bryco pretty pissed off credit trainee, and they were offended. They were mag. They were like, you know, who do you think we are we took accounting in college, and that's the stupidest thing we've ever seen. And we were all like, Oh, wait a minute. We we all went to this program and we all loved it And what's going on? So we we had a little after action review talked about it and made a note that the next group, which is coming in about 12 weeks, we would actually provide better context because we realized we didn't do a good job. So that this time what we did is, we said Thursday afternoon, we said Hey, guys, we know what you're about to go into with Accounting is a big deal. And pretty much all of credit analysis, all of accounting. Everything you're gonna do sort of starts with scorecard of business, which is the financial things. So you're gonna want to know how to use those really, really well, and we know you've got a lot of it in school. But what we've learned from our own experiences that its one of those things that fade unless you use it. So before we dive deep, we want to give you a chance to sort of dust off the skills you've got. Give yourself a chance to sort of practice stuff and get warm back up. So we also know yelled I'm working really hard and this is a little bit of a break of the day We're gonna send you over to the accounting game is gonna be fun. Help you dust off your skills, get catch a breather because we're gonna be hitting it hard on Monday morning. Well, that changed every What a difference. 60 people on a date with almost no difference in time right. But this time 60 people came over, and instead of offended, they were grateful. They were like that was best Thing ever. I've never because now that we weren't telling them they were stupid. You're right. They thought we were telling them they were stupid. We were telling them that they're smart, but they need to dust off their skills and that they needed to work hard. So anyway, I think that's an interesting way to take that concept of context. And like, you know, it applies to me everywhere, right? Right. So that and that's the essence of to me. The difference in your experience is so I would love to hear from you, like how have out in a different context, because you're living in the academic world right now more than any of your world. Like look, let's start with, like, military to business. Like when you went from working with me at Bank of America, going back into service and going to Afghanistan. How how did those two different contexts changed The very thing that you were doing? I.e leadership.
Steve: 28:33
So So you're setting in that span spanned about 15 years. So you okay? And we're not going to bio I Oh, but the really short version of it. So, um, I was on full time active duty for 10 years. I clear planes for the Navy. Um, I had the honor of, um, flying combat missions in Desert Storm airplane that was flying the A Intruder, the best airplane that every flew - another paid political announcement. My personal opinion context. And they were gonna retire. So it gave me an opportunity to get a tradition. Airplane broke into a different realm, and so I chose to stay in the reserve. But the four come back and again a little bit more background about me that I had during my studies. In addition to me, an undergrad with business, I got a master's degree. And essentially, what is it? And for those who might remember this, it was a management research focused on this guy called Dr Edward Deming. Um oh, yeah. You remember Deming? So you
Lynn: 29:52
are you we used Deming a lot of the re engineering project from the early 19?
Steve: 29:56
Exactly. So damning. His thing was total quality men. And that was essentially what kind of Dug, you know that Japan industry out of the ditch after World War two and ever. Demming was a key part of that. I studied a lot of what he did, and it was frankly, that background got me into Then make Nations Bank became bank of America. So those because of that transition that I landed at, um, nations bank, which again became bank of america. But I went from 10 years straight stick, naval aviator, you know, gonna make it a full career. My airplane retires.? Said let school get a different job. And so I ended up in the financial industry. When I took that as I landed a nation's bank the most, I learned I knew about the financial industry was how to cash a check. And I knew that just because you had checks left didn't mean you actually had money left in the bank. That was like my full understanding of the financial industry and I landed at. Nation thanks wanting leveraging some of these total quality management principles. And this would kind of come back to some other things that I want to talk about when I contrast management vs. leadership. But as they landed at Bank of America, it all became about change and what we did and you and I did this in stages that at the end, and the banking industry at that time was all about change. Everything was getting, you know, there was mergers and acquisitions. And how do you have you collapsed Different styles of executing programs. And so you have to figure out, How do you navigate change in a way that the people and there's a great I'm not gonna I'm not gonna read it because I don't have it right in front of me. But there's a great Machiavelli. And then people might cringe that. But Machiavelli wrote the book Prince and what he advised his princes do. How do you navigate change? And the paraphrase of The statement was that navigating changes one of the hardest things to do, because what you have to do is to get best case lukewarm people interested in maybe a different future. But most of the time, you're dealing with people who have been successful in the old order of things, So when you take a bunch of executives that a bank has just recently been acquired and say, I know you've got a 30 year career being successful, you've got a wonderful trajectory. We're gonna have you do things differently now. They're gonna look at you, you know, like you crossed your brain. And yet
Lynn: 32:49
they did look at us like we lost our brains.
Steve: 32:52
Absolutely. And that's what we had to create that leadership program. And so that's what changes all about. So the Machiavelli quote was absolutely spot on, and even though we never I don't think that were used that in the class,
Lynn: 33:05
I'm pretty sure we didn't
Steve: 33:07
know he was alive. Matthew Go. But it's actually for those, and I go fast forward nto my PhD studies. It's amazing the amount of time that quote is cited because it actually is very true. And so, as you move into that industry of how do I navigate change and what we did? A Bank of America was change. What it did after like left Bank of America is I played a lot in the outsourcing Stace, and for the make that, you know, it basically is it's taking the, the centralized service is the shared service is modern that many corporations were doing in the late 90s and 2000'a et cetera. And Saying, if we can get one organization within our company to do this brought, and we get an organization outside of our company to do this. That's the 32nd version with oversimplifies is what is outsourcing?
Lynn: 34:05
We
Lynn: 34:05
did that which, with exalt when they took the payroll out and a lot of something almost almost no company actually manages their own payroll today because of that.
Steve: 34:18
But you know, I work for exalt.
Lynn: 34:20
I remember you and I were together there to remember
Steve: 34:24
that exactly right we. Consider plated that. So so. But again, if you think about taking an organization who the local payroll and HR and benefits and all those things that was, like, kind of the warm and fuzzy, how do you take care of your people? And then you say, Well, the company's not doing that anymore. We're gonna get that to another company and let them do it. And the logical rationale behind that from an efficiency and effective but effective perspective made all the sense in the world. And there was a point time when I ran payroll for 17 different companies that totaled about 100,000 employees. Now we were really good at it because we ran payroll for 100,000 employees, and none of those 17 different companies could have done it as efficiently as we did. Yeah, but. When you tell, you know, Sally, your bill that your paycheck is no longer coming from the payroll that used to be down the hall, coming from a company somewhere out, that's change and change is hard and you go back to Machiavelli. How do you How do you get people to embrace that? And so that's a lot of what I did. What I done is a civilian and think, even when I I spent a fair amount of time going back into full time navy service and again it was all about managing change because we had these different, very high level commands around the world. And they all did things differently because they have evolve differently. But it led us to a challenge from a global consistency perspective that we weren't doing things similarly that we had the one command and Mediterranean were doing something different than a command in the Pacific. and you looked at the boundaries of where they work together. And you had ships growing between those boundaries. Well, the ships got really confused because when he went from banging into the Indian Ocean like, oh, well, I was doing it this way. now i gotta do it different. So again, it was It was actually a change towards consistency. But again, it was changed for those people that grew up in those geographically based commands. So that different, that's what we didn't We didn't used to do it that way. So all of that changed from very practical perspective led, me in my experience, to understand? And I'm going to go a little bit further here under the academic world to say, Well you know, if all you had to do and I'll use this might not be the greatest example in the world. But if you unwind the clock back at 20 years ago and said, Let's look at Sears. Do they have been a forever?, They didn't They didn't have to do a lot different because they did everything. They did extremely well and again go back 20 years, maybe 30 years. Sears Roebuck was the Paramount, right? They were. They were. They were Amazon Walmart combined. Then
Lynn: 37:33
they really won't and people forget that like that Sears catalog was effectively Amazon
Steve: 37:39
It was. Yeah, yeah, it again. Amazon Walmart combined. You take the best of both They were fantastic. And why? Why did why were they so good? It's not because they changed because they were incredibly good and repeatable of what they did. You knew exactly. It's the reason Craftsman tools are now being sold at Lowes, because you could depend. You could depend on what they were doing that, and I'm going to kind of do the state senator, that is, management management is about how fast. And I'll kind of do a little bit of a trailer here with the academic, some degree said, even though some like to dance around this, management is about delivering on a day to day basis the quality that you expect. And that's what Deming did, 1950 in Japan, Demming said. Don't get creative, don't get innovative, Deliver quality day in and day out reduce your defects. Were all that stuff that and that's exactly what Sears did. Now, unfortunately, no, you look at the past 20-30 years, but the difference use case. But But they didn't change. They were phenomenal and you and they did exactly what they needed it. So when I look back on and I'm trying to kind of integrate some of the questions that you asked me and I'll come back military leadership in second. But in my transitional time, when I left the military, I spent a lot of time helping organizations change. Now I'll fast forward into the academical world. So there's a standing John kotter. He wrote a book. 19
Lynn: 39:28
. John kotter did like management leadership,
Steve: 39:30
right? That what he did, yes, wrote a book, he said. Ironically, he said, Whoa, whoa, management is good and Sears is great But if you really want it advance yourself, you need to do leadership And that's different But ironically, what left as a vestige, and it's still kind of pulls back in, and it's no very much. A passion of mine is to say, management is still essential. And when people start thinking about well, I've Taught classes and many of the classes that I taught from the classes, you do a show. Okay. Who here abused them so or walk? To view themselves as a manager, you want to be a leader? Well, uh, in the 4th 90% of the hands raised a walk and then because that's kind of the paradigm that are industry or are, I don't know, here are education. Everybody is kind of thought that, well, there's been this sort of this extrapolation say, Well, a leader is simply a better manager,
Lynn: 40:37
right? Being different. and so more people raise their hands over leadership and manager
Steve: 40:44
like 90% Wow, People go Oh, no, no, I don't want to be a manager. I'm a leader and it's because we end it. But if you look so here's an interesting If you look at the academic history of this and I actually talked to my department chair about this because somewhere in my dissertation is going to be the line. I'm looking at it in my office, and it says in defense of management. And my point is, Is that as we've gone over the past probably the second half of the 20th century and in the past couple decades, every all of the academicians and frankly, all of the pundits, you know, everybody who wants to write a corporate leader, a corporate book that's going to be sold to you know, people who are in charge of corporations. You're not going to sell a book about management, but you will sell a book about leadership.
Lynn: 41:37
There's so many things about leadership. Go
Steve: 41:39
find the latest book that was written about men,
Lynn: 41:42
probably Deming or Peter Drucker.
Steve: 41:46
It's been a long time ago, and point is that we're missing something here. We're missing the fact that if you look at what a corporation, actually, does if you look at 80%. And I don't have any, not yet. I probably will. I don't yet have the statistics to back this up, but my gut tells me that about 80% of what a corporation does a corporation that successful, they do it. If they do it well, they do it because of good management, because they produce the product day in and day out with no no quality defects, efficient, effective, they get the product at the door. That's why the company station is they don't They're not going to stay in business because they've brought about that nuts. Greatest newest thing. Now they need to do that eventually. This is where steers failed, right? So steers myth that change opportunity. Foot for 100 years, years lit, a fruity Don voyage on the visual every day and quality products. So that's what, man. Um so So I looked back as I. Now I'm digging into the study of management and I think about Whoa, what is How do we How do we integrate the two and their arms? In the academic world? There's a lot of right on. So what is leadership? Leadership is actually a relatively new topic of interest over the past five decades. If you go back in, acquired in 1960 or so leadership was in that thing. Yeah, because it was all about them. It was all about Taylor was all about sales management, which is all really important stuff and that, you know, it kind of came out of the Industrial Revolution to say, You know what four did with the production line? We are just good cranking out big party product you over and over again. But over the past five decades, people said, Well, we're really going to stay cutting edge and so trust me, I'm not much. My degree is an organizational leadership, So I studied that it's important. But as I study it, the caution that I have people's don't get so enamored with leadership that you forget the management is essential to your success. You've got to continue to deliver day in and day out to be able to provide a service to your customers.
Lynn: 44:16
Along with that, I want to put a pause. I ever an interesting insight on this. It's something I struggle with, and I see my client throw with it sometimes and Russ my husband, I, who run a camp, you know, Mystic Waters together struggle, and I call it the difference between being a builder and a runner meeting. Some people are better at building things, which I think, by definition, building is changing and and then running things is managing things like it's the day today operational, you know, and in life that looks like going to get you all changed every three months and, you know, carrying out trash every week and mowing the yard. And, you know, just handling the management of the household for exam fun and sexy things like let's build a new fireplace or, you know, put in a you create new things around. Both Russ and I, for example, are very much builders in our personalities. Um,
Steve: 45:16
lynn, I would guess that,
Lynn: 45:18
and I've actually hard people. I had a client in one of my leadership programs. Say, Yeah, my company knows I don't do maintenance, and she said it was some derision, but the militia elements means I don't manage things like they put her in. Did you change? But they did not want her to run any of the businesses because she wasn't gonna People look after them. So what do you see as it relates to personality? Is it something that people have to like go against the grain? Or is there a way for somebody like me who's a builder to find a way to be a better manager?
Steve: 45:52
tell you what Lynn, that is, That is so that thats a spot on observations. And And I could go on, like, the different directions right now. Yeah, to my my academic college, because they hear. So I they hear me rail on this all the time, and I go back, and I find there are academic writers who have kind of stayed, um, consistent with the fact that management is still important. Okay, So Connor, kind of started it, there's a standing just froze. Now, ironically, they all write books to say, Here's how leadership is different. The management and I read them and they will. But what you're saying is that management is going for it and and that kind of my inclination. So to go back to your statement that, yes, I would agree that you and Roger probably more builders. I'm a runner, Uh, by my innate nature. Now, that doesn't mean I can't lead, But it means that what I am inclined to d'oh is I'm gonna make sure the wheel state and you'll tell a bit of a story. Um, and now this is going to connect a little bit back to the military environment. So I had the pleasure. Um, you know, about 2/3 of the way through my military career, I was had a fairly senior position and a reserve organization, and I ended up I worked for two people, um, both of whom went on to become two star admirals. Um, and the first person, um wise, just this amazing hard charging you just She said, Let's go take that hill. And you didn't think like you. What was interesting about that. Um, there's this whole bureaucracy behind the military being able to take that hill, and it starts with We gotta recruit, sailor, you gotta train the sailor. You get evaluated whether you get a Oh, all this stuff that happened before you go take that hill. And this person was competent at that, but not really excited about Delia half. So I got spent a year being his number two. And so as his number two, I got to just kind of fully appreciated, admire his ability to inspire everybody. Um, but that makes her the violations written. The sailors were housed. They were fed. So that so That a great example of, uh, running. I'm sorry, building persons front or leaving versus managing. And and and that was probably the easier role for me. Um, he ended up being followed by another person who was very competent and could articulate the next impressive vision. But I remember when that person took over the command. I stayed in the number two person in the role and that person said that the number three person on an 80 squatters are the exact and this person looked at me and said, You know, I've been the executive officer of five different commands and and and I looked at this person That is great. That means I have a what? And and and this person helped me to make sure that I got to admit on the on the run and making sure that everything was second ties. But it also gave me an opportunity because this person, when it came time to get up in front of the audience, this portion was competent at it. But this person looked at me often and said, Why don't you provide that message? So So those two things And this is what I would encourage anybody that runs into a role where you're gonna have some degree of a forest, um, to figure out what's needed, because sometimes and turnout, this is shifted a little bit into. And if you thought heard the term scholarship, so this followers thing is it is a very no other past, probably 23 decades. I'm looking at a regio. It's kind of that he's the father now followership. It's what do you do as a follower in an environment? And so I think an effective needs to look at the leader four manager and say what needed And if If the person that you work for there's an inspirational leader of is Mary inexpressible change and motivated. But they're not that passionate about making sure that we'll stay on on a day to day basis. That's got to be your now roll presses the power. You gotta make sure and then Conversely, if you've got a person that you're working for, who's really good at making the wheels stay on, you might need that kind of You have come from the colony meat from nine and be the voice and be the person that can inspire. And so So that's kind of Ah, a longwinded story. And so I had the opportunity. wearing a uniform, literally back, back in the same man, working for two different people who ended up obviously speaking, very successful in their roles in the military. The fill those roles, and so my it was the look and figure out what I need.
Lynn: 51:40
Yeah, thats key. That's key. It's interesting that so I want to dig into this what's needed a little bit deeply because I had an experience where one of my clients, who had worked for 15 years was taking his first CEO role. He had very large other roles, but it had not been a CEO today, and I actually had a another friend who was retiring is the CEO of a different company. And I said, Hey, what you know with me, it's a go between What would you say from one CEO to the other? And he gave me several key pieces of advice. But one of them, I thought, was really interesting, and it's relating to this what you need it and what he said. WAAS. Be sure that what problem you're solving is the problem that's in front of you and not the one you solved before. So bring to each problem which needed for that problem. And I am really starting to uncover with myself and with all of the clients I'm working with. Just what a skill that is. I've started calling it a set of invisible tools. Where are your? Your eyesight is so tending to what's happening in front of you that yet for past informs you, but it doesn't interfere with what you're trying to do at the moment. So, like in your story, if you if you're past it interfered you would not have adapted from one kind of leader to the other, and you were would have really rubbed the one guy the wrong way because you weren't giving him what he needed,
Steve: 53:17
right? Well, and so so actually, So we've now we're kind of doing a circle back. So what you're just talking about Lynn is what I would articulate as context, right? So in the context and that would go back into the academic realm and and you look at = And this is where I very much get up on my soapbox in the academic environment to say, are we talking about management leadership? Because the context and it does call to what is needed. And if what is needed, is change. And when I when I talk about change, I'm not. Frankly, I'm not talking about six Sigma process reengineering, total quality management. I'm talking about dramatic vision changing, changing the core underlying principles of the top,
Lynn: 54:09
which means people have changed their assumptions, their behaviors, sometimes their identity, about who they are in the organization and how they fit
Steve: 54:19
So then Lynn you just teed me up to go back into my little professor hat
Lynn: 54:23
Put your professor hat on Steve
Steve: 54:27
There is this guy named Edward Schein. he talks about three levels of organizational culture he talks about. There are artifacts. So when you when you walk into a company. So he talks about artifacts, which is what you see and you when you walk into whether it be an IBM or Apple and I know those are very overly simplistic stereotypes. But, you know, they weren't ties or their wearing t shirts. Uh, that's kind of your superficial. What do you see? Then? You come underneath of that and you say, Well, what are the behaviors? What are the underlying motivations of the company. Those can be discerned, but they tend to be a little bit more hidden, and it's, you know, you know, an example for me would be well do you work on Saturday or not? Your boss send you emails on Saturday or not to that kind of the next level of the cultural dynamic of what the company is about. And then you go to the very bottom and this is what we're trying talks about in its underlying assumptions. And these are things that, frankly, the founders and the leaders of the company, unless you dig deep, they don't even know. These were things that are so deep that the company doesn't realize that this is what drives them, and the alignment of those three levels of culture are really important to keep to eliminate the dissonance of the people working in the company. Because if they hear you, they go Hey, Yeah, come in and wear jeans and wear a T shirt. That's great. That's the top level. But it's the very underlying assumption is that we don't make our numbers next month, we're gonna fire our people. Yeah, you just go. Wait. Um What? What?
Lynn: 56:14
Yeah, well, you know. Okay, So this actually is making me think about that story that I have been talking about from the 1st 2 levels for years, and I don't think it was you that was in the meeting with me. I think it was one of our colleagues who I'm gonna leave unnamed because he doesn't know we're talking about him. But I remember walking over to this is when we were leaving that big change project and we had a finger HR person who shall also be unnamed, Um, for reasons that are about to become very obvious. But here, here's what was not being seen as I was walking over with our colleague have this meeting Was that I knew I was in the middle of something big and that there was a different level of status today going to an informal meeting with somebody that normally people prepared, remember how we would prepare for meetings like But when the higher stakes meeting, the more likely we were gonna be in some kind of rehearsal, and then we're getting ready and all that. But you kind of knew you'd arrived even more if you were actually kind of like I come over and visit with me, Give me a quick update on your project and you didn't have to prepare because you were kind of like on the circle. So my ego was feeling that on this particular meeting is like, wow, we're going over one of those, you know, we're something else because we're doing this and you and I have been working with people talking about the fear that's underlying change Like what you just described. When somebody's culture is we don't want our numbers every getting fired. So what? Just scare everybody into performing. And so I started understanding in my very rudimentary understanding about leading change was, if you don't address the fear, people will go into survival mode. They get more protective than they get creative. You know, I was that I was just starting to understand that. So I think I've told you this story, but I I've got so many layers to it now about that invisible stuff you're talking about that way underneath foot in shines assumption. Because I kind of matter of fact, we said to the HR guy, so, you know, we're we're asking a lot of these division head. Um, as you can imagine, we're seeing some resistance, and in fact, in some cases I would even say some fear. And what I thought we were gonna have was then here's what my my naive self. What was gonna happen, which he was gonna look at me with, knowing eyes and talk about how strategized help these guys feel safe in making the change we were asking to make. But What he did instead was I've never actually seeing anybody's eyes get that hard rather than sort of that light up. Hey, this is gonna be a good conversation. It was more like the Grim Reaper, and he got very dark and he picked up his pant and he said Who Hey, hey. Was going too tight. Night? Yeah, And I ever, sudden, like, I remember feeling flooded with, almost, like adrenaline. Like, Oh, no, I have I stepped into the biggest power elephant shit you can, and I wanted to back out. Our colleagues said something like, Well, really know if everybody and, you know, way placated, redid everything we could to back away from the problem. And, you know, I kind of left that meeting thinking I would never gonna ever mention anything like that to him again because I realized, you know, that was a mistake. Like I had made a mistake. And then when I was revisiting that that story the other day is part of the book I'm writing and thinking about what happened. I realized I wanted to tell that story, but I was actually almost afraid to still obvious years later because I got scared me so bad if he could still even you know he's not dead. But if he could reach from the grave and somehow hurt me And then as I was reflecting even on that layer here's the unseen of the unseen of the insane What I actually surmise And I can't possibly know this. I think he was actually the one who was afraid and that he almost had a fear of fear that makes that meeting, I think Hiss at Percival. We were just wanted too many projects that he had on his plate that he had to get a lot of change that right? But he also had his ass on the line hours waas. Probably the most daring of all the projects that were happening. And hey needed us to perform. He did not want to hear anything other than the line is straight up. And everybody's on board and always will. Yeah. Yeah. So what? What I thought was his fear and I had no
Steve: 1:1:08
tools to deal with. Yeah, yeah, And that we go and and again. So So this is kind of the I think it's the You grab Prince. Earlier the three different paradigm in which had the opportunity to understand and the sun will be demonstrating. And and I think this kind of highlight some of those because you know, the the what would it What I think would be he to articulate from this person's leadership style is wouldn't often asserted to D. It's the dictatorial leader, leadership style, right? So we're gonna tell you what to do and
Lynn: 1:1:56
that is the Here's the perception, especially if you ever watched the hill. He want military, But somebody did not think that is the John Wayne style of leadership.
Steve: 1:2:04
Exactly. I know where I'm going and we are to go there together and my vision and that Don't get me wrong. There is a There's an important, um, contact will come back to that phrase in which that's important. All right, if you're gonna go take that hill if in your gold watch you know any number of two dozen military movies and you're gonna see leadership that inspirational and valuable in need. But the trick is to understand when it's needed and and you wonder, are there are even times and, you know, blend in in a civilian contact. You maybe even an academic context you like on a debate over this is the direction we're going, Um, I need to get on board or we go in that direction. But the vast majority of the time, even within a leadership environment where you're enlisting, change from the ability to kit people, too, in order to be in order to be able to achieve the objective. If you're dependent on one person's neither strength of character from inspiration of vision, whatever my experience has been that no typically going that's going to very aware of the contact is going to be buried narrow, which that will work
Lynn: 1:3:27
because, in other words, this is like back to your point about management. What you need is systems and processes and, um, structures that shut up. The right things happen day in, day out instead of one person's personal willpower.
Steve: 1:3:44
So, yeah, there's there's a dimension to that. But there was also dimension. So if you come back and it, you know you, Steve, what is the nearest leaders have management. I'll go back to Qatar's 1990. It's very clear, So management is about getting the job done. It's about process repeatable quality. Dana Doubt produce things. It's good.
Lynn: 1:4:05
Yeah, I remember, he said. Management managers deal with complexity and leaders with change. I think
Steve: 1:4:19
so. So typically leaders. Your complexity managers deal with the seven school, and they continue
Lynn: 1:4:26
to allow. Okay,
Steve: 1:4:28
there's a saying that actually peaked some and it is. But I'll say it anyway and let our listeners kind of go. Is that right? And so the saying is that, um, um, managers do things right. Leaders do the right thing, Huh? So that that's an often quoted and I'm not going to remember who actually started it. I disagree fundamentally, because it's diminishing. The manager's role back is diminishing. A Pope patrol. So does that mean that leaders do the right thing but don't do it right and is that man do things right? But don't do the right thing? I think it's it's dismissive, but it does in fact make me think about what is the difference on the rolls so and put up and I continued apart from that, I want to come back and kind of say to the point that you're making and this is another context, and recently in some of my studies. There's this concept of his leadership Is that an individual endeavors that a team in death? No interesting. So is leadership. Something that, well, you know, my patent and my, uh you know, MacArthur and I am the leader. I'm going to do it and and and I do think again it since contacts defendant is probably personality. Depending on put, I'll go a little bit off the the purely referenced trail on to say that for 35 years, anybody who has ever worked for me has heard some version of the admonition, and that is that if you're working for me and if it's any point in time, you find yourself doing something that doesn't necessarily make sense. When you ask yourself why, Mike and the answer to that question is because I think this is what you want me to do my direction to that person is, Yeah, because the only reason you're doing something is because your boss, whether it be your manager, your leader, whatever it's the only reason you're doing it is because you make it's what your boss wants you to. D'oh! You should stop now. That doesn't mean that ultimately you're not going to do it, but it means you should stop and go back to that boss, leader, manager whatever and say help me understand why I'm doing and, you know, and whether that be taken trash out, right? Way for create code the right way, whatever it is that you and at the end of the day, you might have to do it anyway. Well, you shouldn't do it until you have made the effort And this goes back good followership accountability. You shouldn't do it unless you'd be the least made the effort to say, Well, I don't understand. Why am I doing now If you have a conversation and the boss says roll. Good question. Um, you I understand you disagree with my rational. I need to do it anyway, That point. Okay, go. But don't do it, because in this business to run out of many years of frustration, when I flying, people working for me that they're doing things and I walked up and I'm like, Why? I'm doing it that way And the ranchers, because I thought that's what you wanted me to do and my managers work. That's a dumb reason they go do something because it's the right thing to do not. And so this all ties back to do. We do things based on the leader's vision, where we do things based on the leaders. Coordination of what needs to get done
Lynn: 1:8:17
can't have that concept of what's needed. Exact. But, you know, I feel like sometimes our societal conditioning for kids, for example, in school is well, why do I have to work out the math problem that way? Well, that's because the teacher told me to do it that way. Or why do you have to write a sentence is way or whatever, and I'm being simplistic examples. But I think a lot of our conditioning is because the person in authority or the test told you to do it that way
Steve: 1:8:47
and that you're absolutely right mind and that is a And I think that that is a cultural conditioning that is is a problem, because we're gonna end up with people you kind of grow up into the higher, and everyone just continue to do things because their boss tells you to do it. And I just think there's an opportunity and you and you know the other, I think important emphasis Thio, too, to the effectiveness of a leader. And I'll use Jim Mattis is a great example. I've watched him that for those who have not know Jim, he General Secretary Mattis, no secretary defense, many, many leadership opportunities and motors.
Lynn: 1:9:32
Is he the guy that called Mad Dog? But he didn't like being commandos.
Steve: 1:9:36
You didn't like being called that dog, but he But he waas and hit the brakes. Brilliant, amazingly studied man. And he demanded that his subordinates explained to him why they thought this was the right thing. And Jim and that moment or General Mattis very rarely would say, Hey, just do it because I say so right? There are times when you're dealing with a two year old that because I say so is the right answer. For once you get past two, um, you need it. You need to move into the realm of I need to understand this. I don't necessarily need to agree with it, but at least need to understand. We ever follow that. And part of that is, and this is what General Mattis, who is that as great as he was part of his brilliant is that he understood you didn't know everything and and if everybody was just going to do what he wanted them to D'oh set with the diminishing of the overall competency of that organization. Is there so many more? Good idea. And if all were to do it. But the boss tells us till we're then those other 10 ideas that you could have brought up that might better hit left by the road.
Lynn: 1:10:49
Exactly. But, you know, actually, I think I heard, um, I think it was Netflix that had tried to like for the sake of the skate had a lot of times. When you're trying to scale and grow, you get into this thing where it's like we gotta have some bureaucracy, if you will. Some regimentation. And I think they almost had gotten it to be like, Here's how to be a Netflix for dummy. So they kind of orchestrated every single thing and pretty quickly what they figured out. And I think I actually heard the city of Netflix itis is pretty soon. The only people that would work there were dummies. So if we have Netflix for dummies and you know, we didn't have a better thought on their own, and I completely turned it upside down there. The Netflix culture deck, which, if you just Google Netflix cultured like I think it takes you to their website, where it's a fairly now fairly famous set of principles, much like what you're talking about, which is we want your best thinking,
Steve: 1:11:48
right, right, right. But But there is about right, Yeah, and this goes back to that leadership and leadership teams management status quo Status grows an important thing for us to be able to deliver on, and I'll go all kind of point that blesses McDonald's right, So nobody wants to go. You know, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be in McConnell's manager, probably not what you hear on, um, but at the end of day, McDonald's is really good. What they dio and part of it is because they understand when his management required. I am going to follow the procedures. I'm going to do that well and you know, in different industries and certainly net, which in its industry needs more innovation and creativity. And probably McDonald's does. And there's but you need both in both. You need to understand what's required when and if you're in the industry and you need innovation and you need creative ideas and are you're doing. It's rinsing, repeating and following that 17 step process to create a movie. Probably not gonna work. However, if you're gonna follow the 17 step process to create a Big Mac. That's not a bad thing, because
Lynn: 1:13:01
no, because I want the same Big Mac in Indiana that I get in Texas that I get in North Carolina. If I'm eating a Big Mac, which I used to ate a lot,
Steve: 1:13:10
I will not tell Kanye than you're eating big maps.
Lynn: 1:13:13
I know I haven't eaten since I was for many years now, but you know what a parallel. You know, Jennifer, my daughter was, ah, Waffle House manager and exact same theory here and what we're interesting for like it the Waffle House work. I mean, they are brilliant execution, like McDonald's is, and you go into any Waffle house and they know how to do your scattered. I don't even know all the rules about hash browns and so forth, but you could describe how you wanted your food and you got it. But what? There is a difference in the feeling of place to place as it relates to the kind of leadership that's in the organ organization as well of management. In other words, you go into some of them and you feel like it's more open and welcoming than others. And I think that's leadership
Steve: 1:14:00
Yeah, that's that's a really think. That's a really cool observation. And I think it takes us beyond the simplistic differentiation of leadership managing chain for leadership. Got it. Jane versus management Delivering the status quo because you're right and you know, even even a McDonald's for you. Okay, so this would be comparing. McDonough was resting the Chick fil A, and I'm probably being inappropriate here. Going to those investments both but very different, right? Where is that, huh? Again, I'm not going to tell you that it's leadership because it might be the Chick Fil A has a management, their structure. It is created to deliver a different experience. Um, and I'll always back up because, you know, I'm just overreacting, but if everyone says well, that's better because it's leadership. I just Quran did that statement because that's what everyone kind of wants to leave. And everyone wants to leave on the fact that well, again goes back to a leadership. It's just better, man and and that's just, I think, fundamentally flawed and what created, and I'll go back for a great story here in a second. But it's created is this perception that we don't need to worry about management as much to do about leadership. And I think that's a mistake going back,
Lynn: 1:15:27
not think that, by the way. I want to say I totally acknowledge that. And it's one of those cultural norms and expectations that I think we have fallen into that is unconscious and until somebody calls it out and then you go around, I didn't really mean decided leaders betters that later is better than manager. But that's what it feels like
Steve: 1:15:45
we do and it bit and that's over. The past five decades of academic writing set the trajectory that things have gone into and certainly, you know you're talking anybody who's been reared in the military, they're gonna want to be a leader, not a manager, and that's because that's how we are born and I don't know why I don't want to try to become a lexicon police, but I think we need to be thinking about it. But I'll go back in tow. This is this is, I think, really important and spent in that in that lexicon differentiation. So if you go back and study Dr Edward Deming in the fifties is his mantra was total quality. And that's what he created. He had seven No. Six keys to success. Seven Deadly diseases. All these things it breaks, basically was the precursor to six signals. So you look at all the principles of six signaling back it up 20 years. You look coordination, and that's what Demi and that's the reason that we drive with so t really blowing about. They created a reputable processes process that delivered a quality product. And let's be honest, Jack Welch looked at that and said, That's what I want to do And you said three segments out. Enough. Let's make it six. So that kind of where we went, but back to my story so damning caught it. Total quality management Well, back in the eighties, um, how was a a younger officer in the military, the Navy said, Hey, we like that has military. Do they look at, you know, corporate industries And, hey, if there's some good best practices that there were four of them in should he did a study and they corrupted some of the other people s. These is a guy who wrote a lot about jamming this. Hey, help us maybe create this program that Demming has obviously made And, you know, in the military is really important for military because no maintenance of all the equipment and all Americans, it's repeatable. You've got to be really good and repeatable, high quality. So here's what happened is that the Navy said we want to do that numbing stuff. But you know what? We don't like the term management with a little quality leadership and the various they literally relabel photo total quality leadership because of the objects, the paradigm of what people thought about. I'm a naval officer. I'm not a manager on the leader and beyond, just making it kind of a silly nomenclature change. You go back into and you started The sample wanted leadership on what matters, and when you look at the principles of Demings, total quality management. It is the important things that management Dr and it were repeatable quality. Leadership is all about reading, and leaders have been great. And so you tell a young lieutenant to say, Be a total quality leader and make sure that your signal deviation is within limits. That person's going to go. Wait a minute. I thought I was doing an inspirational vision and you're telling me to check my standard deviation? You're confused. And so So that's a great example of how semantics matter.
Lynn: 1:19:05
Well, it's not just semantics. I'm gonna actually take it one step further. From my own direct experience in the research on the brain, it's actually a different part of the brain and in different brain state. So as a water Colorado Otis and a potter and somebody you also get very involved in, like I don't do my own taxes. But I do the financials every month, and I send them in and have to make sure they're all in order and so forth. My my brain state is different when I'm working out of financial powerful are working out of retain. Then when I'm in the creative space of pottery or painting right. So you're actually asking somebody to be in a different? I'd like a different, energetic state of being from one way to the other
Steve: 1:19:49
Right? Right. Completely great. Completely agree. Um, and so yeah. So I think that day, um, and I think we're going to sounds pessimistic. I think we're gonna suffer through so many more years of this, um, leadership bias, some writing that air saying, Well, actually, you know what? Both. Um, but we're still going to be stuck with this concept and, you know, and when I really stopped, when I think about it and you know, I think about the conversation that I would have a young lieutenant today and say, John, you should aspire to be a manager. He's not He or she is not gonna want to do that. So So part of this is that is that as we move forward, I don't know, we redefined some of the reasons, and I've been To be honest, I'm looking for the word I've failed this. So far, I've been looking for the word that can that can include both and the fact that I've come up with his governance, and that's really sad because I'm certainly don't want to be from a pure definitional perspective, it does kind of accomplished boat, but I don't know. I need to coin a word. We we need to coin the word that is, You know what? Both management leadership are essential. You need both preeminent. Um, but we're gonna have to figure out a way to continue to before, And I guarantee, over the next 10 years, any book it got, leader, And it is going to you buy 10 forward, outsell the book. It's got manager in it.
Lynn: 1:21:39
I don't know. I think I think you're gonna need to write a book on management. I mean, your dissertation. I guess you're gonna be your book, right?
Steve: 1:21:48
Yeah, And but I'm not. I need to write a book with a title that's gonna have that's going to make money.
Lynn: 1:21:55
So it's everything that you say that because you know, I'm in the middle of writing this book and if you go on Amazon and start looking at all the different titles, it is stunning How many great titles there are out there because every time I think of a great title, it's already been used Okay. All right. So are yeah. I haven't figured out the title for the book. I'm in the middle of writing myself right now, but I do feel like there's a I mean, I don't know if the book has existed that I really love your idea of in defense of management, because at least at this time, I think everybody knows actually, pretty quickly when you see those words strung together. Wow, we are kind of treating readership as somehow superior to management. No, If you only have leadership, I will tell you, you don't. You definitely don't have everything you're gonna need.
Steve: 1:22:49
Well, right. And if you if you look at a company and I'll go back to the serious example shooters lasted for a century on good management with adequate leadership, if you look at companies that have had superior leadership and inadequate management, I'll throw a beta out. There is one. Um, you know, and you can come over the other companies that have these visionary, frankly, world class solutions. But they couldn't figure out how to actually deliver the product. Come in. And so I personally believe that according to the pure definitions that exact dimensions prior to the company will fail more quickly with poor management than they were with poor leadership. And so what you need and order is no apples. A great example of one have been floated. So Apple has marked material early poor management. And that's why they brought jobs back in Jobs is the quintessential leader, not a really good. And that's why he got kicked out the first time. Right? So that an example kind of how you have to have that. And, uh,
Lynn: 1:24:07
well, I think that's the word that actually boat most resonates with me is the idea of the balance. Because I'm really looking at this as I as I work with my concept of the book, because the core concept of my book is is howto have balance under pressure and what I'm starting to recognize you as all the places were out of balance work, life, balance being the most common we talk about. But a lot of times we're out of balance because we're out of balance in our thinking. For example, we spend all of our time in one mode call it financial linear, you know, left brained vote and not enough time in the sort of more cereal, right brains loose since the time mode, and that's a balance that you could be out of. But there's thousands of ways, not 100 of ways we get out of balance. And what I think you're arguing is over the last 50 years we've gotten out of balance as it relates to leadership and managed.
Steve: 1:25:09
I I would yes, I would assert that, Um and and I think it's the challenge for us to figure out there. It is semantics issue because you guys think you know not to be so limiting. To say what title of a book. How do we recast what we d'oh in guiding and directing our organizations that leverages both and honors has been great. That's a really important thing for us to figure out writing from an academic perspective. Um, that's a little bit of to kind of go down that a little bit further than I have already. You know, I started down this academic path and my classmates ever hear me talking about sure they're not crunching. You go. There you go See it again. You know, I think that maybe you and again full disclosure. I teach part time. I want to go home. I love the environment. I love the exercise, really digging into boat. What have here? It's written what has, um, people out there who do the academic research and do the peer reviewed and all that stuff? I think it's incredibly interesting and valuable. I think it falls motivate, short of fully integrating the practical experience of those who have done it farm and in you, And that's kind of been part of my struggles. I've gone through this this this journey so far, and it's relatively now what you know. One of the things that we were instructed very early on in the program is we're told it's very nice to have an opinion. We don't care. What we want is your informer. Respect and the informed perspective must be informed by the pedigree is a peer of your article, and so is I've gone through, and I've read now hundreds of peer reviewed articles about leadership. And while there's an amazing about a value in it, I often find myself scratching my head, saying, How many times did that author stand up in front of 100 people or a dozen people say, I need to let you go All right, All right In July. Need So So how many times have those authors actually done that leadership? And and and I think that So that sort of third dimension you teed it up earlier from military quote, civilian or corporate and then academic leadership. And again, I want to continue to go down this path so hopefully I'm not shooting myself in the foot here. But I think part of my passion and I know it's one of the reasons that the leadership region March meeting teach there is that, um, the students deserve to understand not just what no Carter and broached on Seo on, Taylor said. But let's look at, you know, who are the people that were actually doing it in the field? What was there? How did that, uh, core to what we're seeing from the academic studies from George? So I think that's another dimension to it, and I hope to and my remaining try to continue to put those two together because I want to go down that to them science. But I could be of pouring the practical experience and and and the military strange as well. You know, you and I spoke. I think yesterday about this concept that people think that a military leader there was actually a quote get where already. But it basically said that leadership is really it's communicate bidirectional communication is really important leadership, except, of course, in the military. Where is top down direction? Yeah, I just I just cringe because, yes, there is probably 10% of the time went on a battlefield. Your sergeant major has to tell you to take the hill 90% of the time in the military. Frankly, it is as hard, if not harder, and in the corporate world, because you have to bidirectional communities and it, you know, if there's any, you know, 03 young army captain out there who thinks that he or she is going to be successful by providing direction to their sergeant major, who has 10 more years of experience than them. That's not gonna work. Well, so So there is this, um there is this perception of military leadership, but I think needs to be a little bit adjusted and and, you know, and it's it's interesting because you'll read books. You know, retired generals and admirals love the right books about how their leader, sir, principles work in the civilian world and, frankly, leaderships and the ownership in the military. Just like the effort with total card in national leadership, they heard quality leaders. If they want to say, let me take work in the corporate world and stick in the military without being really get into the essence of how those things are allowed and different Have a You're running really, really high risk. Uh uh. Getting it wrong and probably frustrated people. Um, you know, and and I won't. I won't say any of the generals who have written books lately, but you read some of those names, like So you want to go, sir? You water, you know, from four years, That's great. You don't create job. Thank you for your service. And your principles are interesting, but you've never actually had to make right. That's a different person. And so it's so your principles might translate. But the risk is that you get some corporate executive out there. Oh, you know, General said we should do it this right? And so we'll do it that way. But the reality is that General Smith never had to run the process. And that's it, right? No more.
Lynn: 1:31:26
Well, well. And this kind of comes back then I think to the comment that I made earlier. And that is the fact that leadership is not, ah, one directional single person experience and that they wanted the things that that I think you and I certainly aspired to do. And I think occasionally we did it well and up. And I thank you. I I quote you when I say this one, I'm not sure you're the originator of the statement, but but the key to that and I think it's me the leadership is and it's my favorite definition of leadership. And listening is more than waiting for your turn to talk. Well, do you remember that? Yeah, and that is essential. And I think when we went out to the West Coast, we actually had two. It wasn't so and listening and even in a leadership role, even in a role even in a like block and tackle, were just teaching you this new set of process leader. Listening is more than just waiting for your turn to talk. So if you've got a participant were saying, hey, you know we told this lady, and that doesn't really make sense to me. You don't say Hey, knight in place. But here's where we're gonna go. True listening. Says Wow. Good point. I I don't know that we can change it right now. We're gonna take that on board. And that's why to me, leadership is not face, you know, and I literally yesterday read an article that I'm supposed to comment on. That's it. You know, it talks about your leadership starts with the individual. I read that on my going. Okay, I get that. But if the lens with the individual, then you sell and so, you know, I think there's really got to be a collaboration. It does the vacuum leadership on dhe. That was kind of the biggest thing that I got out of that little couple road trips. Learn about that. No, I think we didn't learn way.
Lynn: 0:00
Well, well. And this kind of comes back then I think to the comment that I made earlier. And that is the fact that leadership is not, ah, one directional single person experience and that they wanted the things that that I think you and I certainly aspired to do. And I think occasionally we did it well and up. And I thank you. I I quote you when I say this one, I'm not sure you're the originator of the statement, but but the key to that and I think it's me the leadership is and it's my favorite definition of leadership. And listening is more than waiting for your turn to talk. Well, do you remember that? Yeah, and that is essential. And I think when we went out to the West Coast, we actually had two. It wasn't so and listening and even in a leadership role, even in a role even in a like block and tackle, were just teaching you this new set of process leader. Listening is more than just waiting for your turn to talk. So if you've got a participant were saying, hey, you know we told this lady, and that doesn't really make sense to me. You don't say Hey, knight in place. But here's where we're gonna go. True listening. Says Wow. Good point. I I don't know that we can change it right now. We're gonna take that on board. And that's why to me, leadership is not face, you know, and I literally yesterday read an article that I'm supposed to comment on. That's it. You know, it talks about your leadership starts with the individual. I read that on my going. Okay, I get that. But if the lens with the individual, then you sell and so, you know, I think there's really got to be a collaboration. It does the vacuum leadership on dhe. That was kind of the biggest thing that I got out of that little couple road trips. Learn about that. No, I think we didn't learn way.
Lynn: 1:34:33
ust like I'm thinking, What? Something about something you said reminded me of us going out and doing the training sessions for the process that we were, you know, helping change at the bank. And remember, we were doing it in the midst of a Margaret larger and especially on the West Coast, they were so pissed off and we would have to, um, get in front of them and basically let them bitch moan in line for an hour and 1/2 or two before we ever tried to teach him anything. Oh, absolutely. And it was interesting because I don't think there's any way that you can learn in a book like that. Sounds like a great theory, right? You could put it on and, you know, it could be a lot out of a book. You should let people complain before you asked him to do anything new Monopoly. In theory, try standing in front off all those people and and you know, you have to really train ourselves to listen and let it be and not try to change their expereincetheir experience. Well, well. And this kind of comes back then I think to the comment that I made earlier. And that is the fact that leadership is not, ah, one directional single person experience and that they wanted the things that that I think you and I certainly aspired to do. And I think occasionally we did it well and up. And I thank you. I I quote you when I say this one, I'm not sure you're the originator of the statement, but but the key to that and I think it's me the leadership is and it's my favorite definition of leadership. And listening is more than waiting for your turn to talk. Well, do you remember that? Yeah, and that is essential. And I think when we went out to the West Coast, we actually had two. It wasn't so and listening and even in a leadership role, even in a role even in a like block and tackle, were just teaching you this new set of process leader. Listening is more than just waiting for your turn to talk. So if you've got a participant were saying, hey, you know we told this lady, and that doesn't really make sense to me. You don't say Hey, knight in place. But here's where we're gonna go. True listening. Says Wow. Good point. I I don't know that we can change it right now. We're gonna take that on board. And that's why to me, leadership is not face, you know, and I literally yesterday read an article that I'm supposed to comment on. That's it. You know, it talks about your leadership starts with the individual. I read that on my going. Okay, I get that. But if the lens with the individual, then you sell and so, you know, I think there's really got to be a collaboration. It does the vacuum leadership on dhe. That was kind of the biggest thing that I got out of that little couple road trips. Learn about that. No, I think we didn't learn way.
Lynn: 1:34:33
Get, actually. Ah, lot of times. One of the, um one of the one of my teachers who works with me in the round pen with horses is talks about listening and hearing. And, you know, you could argue that being the same thing, but the distinction that I've learned to make with listening and hearing years listening means I might have grasped what you were saying. The hearing means I let it impact me, right? And especially when you're working with animals or in Chain Jack link with with with my dog when I'm riding a horse. When I'm working with people in the context I'm working with. If I hear it means I am, you and I are in a two way here. And what you do impact me as much as what I do impact you. You. So I actually let them know I hear them and come whether again it's a horse or of a dollar for human. And there's something that changes when you actually allow the other person or the other being to impact you. Oh, so I, um man, Steve, I have enjoyed this that I lost a little bit of track of time. We briefing at this for a while, So I want to ask, um how did as we close, I want to ask, what is the thing that you would most I want people to know. And then what would you ask of the people listening? So I always like to think about. I think one of the keys and communication, whether you're in management or leadership, is to learn how to make a clear request. Um, because I've learned over my life that I've often times not made clear request. A lot of times I will hear and then wonder why somebody didn't figure out when I said I'm thirsty That men, I want you to give me a second drink. Okay? So what would you What would you What would be your sort of final parting words of advice and your request of people who listen to this in terms of how this might shape their management and leadership practice?
Steve: 1:36:40
Um okay, so this might be a bit of a tangent on, but I'll try to keep my style, um, and lend. This is a whole nother story. You know, my son Zach for the look on Prozac is almost 24 year old guy looking to do some career changes. And actually, I had a chance to talk to him today. Um, and, uh, Aziz, considering these corrections and ah, and game theory of a conversation, I said I want to offer you three pieces of ice and fire water. And I'm not gonna talk about the 1st 1 Um and I'm gonna back, like, that piece of advice. Thio. Try to keep it a relatively short story. Um, and and that is, um it's my academic, not passion. And so to my dad with my second grade teacher, there's a long time that I've been a to teaching education. Academics. Learning has always been a part of my life. And, you know, if you had asked me 35 years ago, what do you want to be when you grow up? I told you one of the cops. I kind of been going in that direction now, which is why studies like teaching or these kind of things. And And I landed in that position on a really short story here. Um uh, So my wife and I went to church. And for those who have heard about the burning bush, I'll let you go read this story, but I'll give you Steve Strat Snyder version of it. That is that. So Moses goes out, he's gonna kick that in for the those who are who know the Bible. I apologize. I'm probably gonna completely messed this up. But Moses goes out and he hears from Bob. I need you back in Egypt and and free by people on Moses says, You know what? I um no, I'm not a good speaker. I think I'll pass and guises. Yeah, I'm not giving you that option. Go help me teach. Uh, And then Moses says, Well, yeah, but you know what? If they don't believe and God tells Moses group, I'm teaching some matchbooks feature out, has turned out staff into a snake and back again and turned the water into blood. And most dishonest is back. And you just pick somebody else on God Probably says I'm irritated. No, Moses should go. So this literally was the message that my wife I heard of the term we came out, My wife looked at me. She said, This is about you and teaching Pam Peach and and I did. And there's a whole long story behind or what I did to get the point where I'm actually able to teach part time. My point to that story is that when you find out what you want, todo figure out a way to go do it that's no good. So when I when I talk to my son this morning that he's contemplating, what should he do? And you know he's gone through. Not a long career so far, but he's had some rough patches where he has not like what he did. And I said, The most important thing you should do is she goes forward is figure out. Why is it at times you don't like what you d'oh wise? In times you love what you do, make sure you do what you love, and so so again, it's a bit of attention off of the whole conversation. But if I get asked, anybody is going into a leadership and management role thinking about how did they be leaders and managers, the people who are following, you know. And if you love what you do that you find a magician where your international is easy and you're gonna have they did that days in that beach. I love what you do and figure out a way to go get that done, another lot being on that limb. That's why I wanna have this conversation with you. That's why I want to stand up in front of the classroom. Why? I want to continue to study. So I would I would encourage people to do that. Um, they must think that was question One question to waas.
Lynn: 1:40:41
What would you just ask people? What was your requested them to be to think about or do as I go forward in their own leadership? Management?
Steve: 1:40:51
Yeah. So I think obviously, part of my diet fried there was part of that. Uh huh. But I also and I'll go back to really tactical. What we spend a lot of time talking about is to understand what you're doing. Why know what's needed? Leadership is needed. This management is needed. Manage. I understand what you're doing when you transparent with the people that you're doing both of those with and and and and the folks that are working with you and I and I use that region. Eric, term intentionally. It's not your people. It's not your followers. It's the people that you work with. They're gonna know that you know what? This is An environment that needs reader said this person is providing leadership. So think about what is needed. When and do that on its management that's needed. Don't try to give up me. Get a good speech. Kid steps in the process and among them that's with me. So I figure out what needed when that no deny question.
Lynn: 1:41:56
That's a great And you know what? Based on as we wrapped up the all of why you're gonna figure out what's needed is if you learn how to really listen and look at what's in front of you, not what's behind completely agree. So great way for us to end, to just ask people to bring the best of who they are to what's in front of them and what what's needed. At this moment,
Steve: 1:42:24
you don't need a lot of people like that. I think that's great. I thank you for the opportunity for us, have this dialogue and I know more. Thank you. The
Lynn: 1:42:38
help we can do another part to because I'm already starting to see a theme. Is our test developed too? People who have had some experience and then I realized that what really matters is doing what it is you want to do and finding a way to do that. So, um, once again, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to do this. And I look forward to the next time we Jack junket. All right. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now, what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less off. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast. And, of course, subscribe and write it on the different APS that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
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