#10 In the Hot Seat with Podcast Host Julianne Neal and Bruce Anderson of Whinny Tales
In this special episode, we turn the microphone around and Julianne Neal of Whinny Tales interviews Lynn Carnes, executive coach and Bruce Anderson of Natures View and founder of Natural Humanship™. Real change only happens with pressure and discomfort. It’s a natural human reaction to turn away from both. In this episode, we break down the steps to turn into the sensations of pressure and discomfort so that we build a new personal foundation of inner strength. Using the horse as a mirror and a teacher, we recount Lynn’s experience of building her mental tools (which she calls the Invisible Tools) over two years of practice, training, failing, recovering, and doing it all over again. The is the first episode in a series of three.
Julianne: 0:02
welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn: 0:19
Hello and welcome to the creative spirits. Unleash Podcast. This is Lynn Carnes, your host today I'm bringing to you a very special episode. I think of this is a bonus episode because in this case, we're actually turning the microphone around. And I was being interviewed by Julianne Neal of Whinny Tails, along with Bruce Anderson, who is the other regular guest on the podcast whinny tails Now, if you listen to the episode that we did with Bruce before Call letting pressure teach you who you were born to be, you're a little bit familiar with his work. But we dive in deeply on this particular day. We go into his concepts around mental tools around the negative positive pole and around being the conduit. Why do we do all of this? Well, for Me, it's all around leadership. It's about sort of learning how to be in a corporate world without being stuck in a corporate mindset. And frankly, it's about changing any kind of mindset that you might have. So in this episode, we dive into some things like the helium concept of leadership, the core of the core of the core of leadership. Can you guess what that IS We talk about that a little bit here. You'll also hear in this episode, Bruce sort of slow me down at times, which we had just come off of an experience that I got on a horse for the first time with Bruce in the round pen. We've done a lot of groundwork, but I have not ridden with him before. And we talk a lot about what got me to that point. So you get to hear me sort of be coached a little bit in this session. Now let me give you some background about Bruce and Julian and the Whinny Tails podcast. It's hosted by Julian, and it's the official podcast of Nature's view and was known as the Marley Project. This is a 501 C 3 does. Dedicated to equine awareness and education, it features the work of Bruce, who is , horse trainer and clinician. He's known for his work with horses and with people throughout the United States, Canada, West Indies. It touches on so many aspects of his training and the ways that this training relates to a variety of situations. This is a weekly podcast, and it includes interviews with lots of people involved with the work. With the equis Film Festival, The Wild Horses of Abaco Project and the ABC Project from Horse Stories, Ponytails and Unicorn Yarns Tomb or you can tune in every way to learn more about Bruce's natural human ship, which is the work we describe in this session. So I really hope you enjoy this podcast by all means. If you like it, leave me a voicemail. Tell me what you loved. Ask me your questions. You can see that on my website at lynncarnes.com On the podcast page, there's a little place where you can leave a voicemail and for sure, share it with your friends, especially if you took away nuggets. I'm always interested to hear what you enjoyed.
Julianne: 3:23
Hi, welcome to whinny details. I'm your host, Julianne Neil, and I'm here today with Bruce Anderson. Of course, hi Bruce. Julian, this is I don't even know what number of quit counting the number of episodes so far, there are very excited to be here. But what I'm really excited about is that this is part of a series of episodes featuring a very special guest. She has over 30 years of experience in leading people, managing change projects, developing leaders and client management. With a background in banking and finance, she quickly grasped the essence of business and what drives its success. She approaches change management, leadership, development and coaching with a practical focus that connects effective concepts and principles to real work. And, she says, now that's the official bio. But the real story, the rest of the story is that she was immersed in the corporate world and decided to make a change. And that is the story behind our guest today. Lynn Carns Lynn. Welcome to the podcast.
Lynn: 4:27
Thank you, Julie. And it's so good to be here.
Julianne: 4:29
Well, I'm excited that you're here because of the podcast, but also because of what you just did, and we're gonna talk about that in a little bit. But I think we'll start by having a little bit of conversation back and forth about how you and Bruce met in the first place and how we all came together to do some pretty special stuff. So you're a, horse person.
Lynn: 4:50
Well, yes and no. I'm actually discovering more and more about how long I've been a horse person. But not so, three, almost three year, 2.5 years ago, I fell off of a horse thinking that I knew what I was doing and discovering I knew nothing. , way I've come to call it is what I might have known would fit on the head of a pin. And what I needed to know would be bigger than Wal Mart on. And the question was, after three days in the hospital, I had a broken collarbone. Puncture are not a puncture, but a collapsed lung, chest tube and all that everybody around me was like, You're never gonna get back on the horse, are you? And it's like that old metaphors like, Are you going to get back on the horse or not? And I really didn't know for over a year. But I met Bruce about six months after that, thanks to one of our mutual friends. He'd worked with her horses and she told me that he did this work with leadership So I was super curious, and it was about two years ago. Was two years ago March that I was here its been two years, March of 2018 and had my first experience on the ground working in the round pen. And that's led to, a long two years of getting back on the horse.
Julianne: 6:15
Exactly. And so more about the getting on the horse part in a little bit. But from what I understand, I wasn't here the first day you came. But from what I understand, you and your daughter both came Jen and that you left with just a high. You just felt wonderful. And you got in the car and jen. Not so much.
Lynn: 6:35
Thistle's so funny. You think I could read my daughter better than this because we were here, you know, for we ate lunch together. We did work in the morning. We did work in the afternoon. We were here for hours, and I did. I got back in the car and she looked over at me and she goes, we're never coming here again, and you can never bring anybody hear. And I was like, what? Man? Talk about not listening. Talk about missing the cues. But what was interesting is a month later, I knew there was something here for me, and I knew there was something I want sure about for her, and I wasn't gonna make it anything she had to do. But I brought back a good friend who's who I've worked with in the corporate world for many, many years. And it was after that session that Bruce said to Jennifer was a pony here. That was the Magic pony, and she couldn't take her eyes off the pony. But he something clicked that day and she said, Yeah, I'll go work with you And she went back down on the round pen.
Bruce: 7:38
It was Rachel pony,Zoe,
Lynn: 7:43
and it was I still have a video of that session with Jen and the mirror that it created for her, and I watched her connect and kind of come into herself in that conversation. And, of course, then she was the biggest fan.
Julianne: 7:58
Yes, yes, well, it's been fun, fun getting to know her getting to know you, of course. And so after that episode, or those several sessions, you and Bruce sort of have developed a partnership in a sense, And,, it's because of your company. Creative spirits unleashed. And I love first of all the title. Because you I have to tell you up front, you're one of the most fascinating people I've met in a long time. Because to hear well, no, seriously, you come in with this corporate, you know the lingo. You mean we're having a little in awe of you with all the stuff that you do. But then there's this side of you. You're an artist, You're an author. You know, I come home and Bruce has your book on the porch. And, you know, I mean all the all the things you to do. You say you're a farmer with your husband. A skier, water skier. I mean, what do you not
Lynn: 8:50
Oh, a lot of things. I evidently have tried a lot of things, But what I've what I think connected Bruce and I so thoroughly was the relationship of mistakes to have becoming who we really are. And it's interesting because it took me a while to actually call my business. Creative spirits unleashed. The name came to me in the shower right as I was becoming an artist. And that was a whole nother story. But I had to pay sales taxes, need to have a business name and all that. And I'm in the shower one day, and all of a sudden it was like creative spirits unleashed. So for years, that's what my art business was called. And then, as I've continued to sort of grow and learn about myself one day, somebody asked me, Lynn, what do you do? I mean, like, what are you known for? And it came out of my mouth before I even thought about it. I said, I'm I think I'm known for bringing people back to who they really are. And I've been exploring my relationship with perfection and mistakes and, trying to sort of how to get there. And when I met Bruce, it was like, Oh, this is a whole another level And he was using my language and he was using some foreign language. So it was. It was interesting because there was, like, this connecting point, and yet it was like a connection to a almost like a the word I'm trying to think of it like a channel or a passage, almost like a portal to another world and it was with horses. And then here's one you all haven't heard yet. But this just was discovered the other day. , one of the big things i did to start coming out of the corporate world or in the corporate world is not The problem is the corporate mindset That's the problem. It's that money mindset that I was trying to get out of and that sort of greed. So I did the artist way where you write morning pages, and I'm in the middle of writing another book and wanted to find the places where I had given myself a picture that I felt like I was living into 20 years later, I had forgotten what I had written, but one of the things that it said was write 20 things you used to do as a child that you love doing and number one was ride horses, and I had forgotten I put that, and not never. In the 20 years that I've been trying to get back to riding horses, I just saw the sudden looked around. I live in horse country and I had all these friends with horses, and that's how this whole thing started, but I don't I think it's I think it's a spirit that you think 20 years later I discover that
Julianne: 11:24
Wow well, in all the recent conversations I've had with podcasting and guests for the Equis films EPS of the equis film festival on other things there are so many people coming back to what they loved as a child and watching movies like Misty of Chincoteague or The Black Stallion or whatever we've had. All these conversations with people that say that was what sparked it for me. And it might have been that you took a brief hiatus or whatever along High Brief, then very brief. But we all come back to that love. Or hopefully
Lynn: 11:58
I read every back black Stallion book that's alone. I actually talked my dad and we had a small farm about an hour from our house, and I talked my dad into buying me horse and, well, we didn't know would fill all of the wall marts on the planet and then and then some more. And but I didn't know that, and it took me a long time to get over the resentment that he sold the horse fairly quickly because things didn't go well and the horse took off with me. And I didn't know if it had taken off with me or if I had just whatever. And it's only been in the last couple of years since working with Bruce that I actually realized they had probably saved my life. That horse probably would have killed me. Yeah, well, thank because we didn't know what we didn't know and what we thought we knew, we really didn't know. So it was really a good thing. So all these years later, it's It's my time to do it now.
Julianne: 12:50
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, I've noticed that you, like you mentioned the lingo and Bruce talks the same language, and that's something that I've noticed that we've loved about being able to get, have you as a sounding board and get feedback and everything because it is. It's the talk about pressure, and you might have a different way of expressing that when you're talking with your clients or whatever. And so it's just been really interesting to see that
Lynn: 13:16
Well, I One of the things that I've come to realize is that one of one of my gifts is to be a master translator, so to take principles that I learned from throwing pottery or from putting watercolor paper watercolors to paper or, you know, riding the horse, especially working with horses. But so many of these things water skiing I am. I'm good at translating those over to the corporate world and then making sense of it in a way that my clients can connect with because you've never seen people have to suffer so much pressure as the people that we work. I think we're all under a lot of pressure, but especially if you're in a corporate environment where I talk a lot about the proving mindset versus the improving mindset. There's a like a wall of failure between those two. But the problem with the proving mindset is you are in a job where you have to prove yourself so you have to not be in a proving mindset, but you still have to prove yourself. And so you know, one of the folks on one of my podcast actually said, you know, it's that she's an artist and she said, It's that idea of you in order to get what you want You have to not You have to let go of wanting it, For it . To work. Wow. And that's a magical space and very elusive When your family is on the line when your pay check is on the line when your bonus is on the line. You know, we get into this homeless sequence, people think, Oh, gosh, if I don't have my paycheck, I'll be on the street. Then I won't be able to support my family. If I can't support my family we'll be eating out of trash cans out of reading out of trash cans before we know we're gonna get sick. So we're gonna die and oh, my God. I have to do what they tell me do. Oh, and I think of that is the homeless sequence because it happens instantly. And you know, when you show somebody that they go 00 no, no, that's never gonna happen. But try telling that to your survival Brain.
Julianne: 15:06
Yeah, Yeah, and all the Bruces work comes down to survival. I mean, I heard you'll talk about negative positive pole, and you had a great conversation about that in so many times, people come in and he's talking negative. Positive. Pole. I just can feel that they're thinking everything is a negative and that's not good. And, you know, I don't want my negative pole. And y'all just had this great conversation in the last podcast about how that we're born with that and it's a great thing to have. It's a gift from God that you Sorry. So just hearing those kind of conversations between you two has been really nice. Yeah, I am here being here all he's so quiet. A longest time.
Bruce: 15:51
I'm learning to be polite, but it's like you talk about the negative positive pole Think about a spirit level that is used for construction that helps you find the balance. If it's not balanced, you know, you and that this came to me the other. These you look at something and you look at construction and a carpenter has to have a spirit level. Now he look at something instead of it looks level. But then, when he put his spirit level on it, he said, he realizes it's not so. It's kind of like what you suddenly He realizes that. Okay, I have to have that tool because if It's off a little bit as I keep building. It makes everything else even more out of whack. To me, that's where that negative pole comes. That negative positive pole comes in, and it's funny because we were talking about that just now down there. Remember how we're talking about the negative positive pole? It's your spirit level. Negative. Positive? I say that like a car battery. Negative, positive without negative, positive energy doesn't flow or the other word is spirit level. So the horses helping you get back in touch with your spirit and leveling, and that spirit level helps you to find the moment. So it's sort of like when we were talking or one of the things we were talking about down there because we talked about a whole bunch of stuff today. While working was we were talking about when we were finding the middle. The more you give up control, the more you had control. So it's kind of like you're letting it tell you what to do when to do how to do balancing it out And You're not working on getting the picture that done, but in working on getting the picture done, you're actually building yourself. So in the corporate world, we're not producing a product. But in producing the product, the focus is now on building your employees up and empowering them. And the more empowered they are, the better they feel. What happens is by sharing this information with them. The more pressure they encounter, the more opportunity have to work on their mental tools. The more proficient they are that mental tools, they're more than able to deal with the pressures of situations and therefore the better they're going to be. And then what happens with them is they actually want more pressure because they suddenly realize the more pressure I have, the more opportunity I have to build my foundation, which is your mental tools, self esteem. So it's kind of like a win, win, win, win win win. So it's no longer like you were saying. You have to perform and produce that product and sell the product. But now, if you look at it from this perspective, the product is now the reason for the journey. For me to build myself and in building myself, I want more pressure, which means to see for more pressure I've got to produce more you understand, i have to have more pressure, which the end product is more production. Not only that, but what you're gonna get is not just more production of a product. But tell me what you think by doing this work with the horses. What sort of end product is one going to get? Is it not going to be more natural, more environmentally friendly? Because by working with the horse, you are learning that we're missing these three pieces. So you're becoming more environment in tune. You're becoming more humane to yourself. Therefore, by being more humane to yourself, you are then force to, in a sense, to be humane to the surroundings. So therefore you're going to stop possibly producing products that are more enviromentally friendly. We would help. Well, let's just put it this way. I would like to think that you can't can't house that they believe that lie anymore because now that you've made that connection with the horse, I e. Nature and the horses help you get back in touch with your nature, finding your spirit on finding peace of mind after going through what you've bean through, what we call tyrant. You don't want to go back there again. I mean, to me, What was interesting was watching you at the end today. And it's like we could have, like, letting a fire little fire off of you like there was so much heat coming off of you is so excited. Energy coming off of you was, like, just so infectious.
Julianne: 20:20
I think we better explain. First of all, what happened today because do you turn out how exciting way nobody else I don't even know. So I'm ready to hear. So you're not the podcast. Recording is a byproduct, a wonderful byproduct. But the reason you came today was to be with Marley, right?
Lynn: 20:39
It was to be with Marley. So
Bruce: 20:42
But can I just say something before we go there? You got me talking or and correct me if I'm wrong. But like my negative pole was up with a particular situation for those who don't understand when my negative pole goes up, it's not a mistake, but an opportunity. So you first came to work with us because of the corporate side.
Lynn: 21:03
I didn't have any dreams of getting back on the horse. I can tell you that
Bruce: 21:05
So to me, she came because she she heard about this work and she thought that or the impression, I presume you tell me that you got from your friend was that this would help your corporate people through doing this work. And I feel that that's one of the things that you realized and in doing the corporate work and in working with the horses that then triggered the switching over to the horses
Lynn: 21:41
to say, You know what? Maybe I should get back on a horse
Bruce: 21:45
because in a sense, in doing the corporate work with us, you started realizing that in a way I am riding a horse without actually being on a horse, because a doing the work on the ground you're riding in a sense can take a look at this microphone
Lynn: 22:01
food and I Well, I had to start building my own tools. And what I when I started seeing what was happening with people, I said, Okay, let me at least just get in the saddle
Bruce: 22:16
What, you mean by seeing what's happening to people, what you mean by that?
Lynn: 22:19
Okay, so throughout the years, as I kind of came out from under the corporate veil on the lie. In a lot of ways, it started seeing it for what it was, and I started working with people either. As a team facilitator is an executive coach. I've been looking for the methods to rewire their brains, and I have a pretty big repertoire of ways to, you know, create new habits of practices to help people. Kind of like I did come out from the veil in a way, and it you cannot think your way out. Your brain will lie to you the whole way out. So you have to do things that are experiential. And I When I came here and saw the work and realized what had happened for me just in that very first day because of because of having done so much of this work before I could, I could tell my muscle memory was changing. I could tell I was rewiring my brain. There's a saying in neuroscience when something when a pep neural pathways fired twice, it's wired and then you got us. Cultivate it and you want to starve the pathways that don't work, and I saw the potential here for that. So that's what brought me here was a faster way for my clients to experience their way into a new way of being.
Bruce: 23:34
What I liked was when you said I rewired myself, it was I didn't rewire, You
Julianne: 23:40
know, you didn't reward me,
Bruce: 23:41
but by working with the horse and giving you these tools. Notice how I wasn't teaching you. I was just to me, I feel these tools that I share. It's something that we've always had. But the world we live in doesn't foster it. So I feel by by sharing these tools with you. You now to me, I see them as a missing pieces. You now take these pieces, and through these pieces, you're now able to build your world the way you want to build your world. So it's kind of like one of the things that comes to me is we have been conditioned. I don't know what the wording would be, but our philosophy is basically to succeed. To be successful, you have to take something that is less and use it to enrich yourself. But to me, what this work does is taking something that is less and carefully would less. It doesn't mean to see that it cannot be stronger. But right now it's less so. You're taking something less I e the horse and by lifting it up the by product is you be lifted up, which to me, I feel is more the philosophy of what we should be doing. Because what we're doing is we're learning to become the stewards that were meant to be,
Lynn: 25:02
Yes, So can I give you a corporate example right ahead. So, I used to call this the helium concept of leadership. And what I would see is that the people who really succeeded got people under them that lifted them like helium. And so the people that seemed to do the best were the ones who are willing to hire the people that were better than they were that were smarter than they were. That often could run circles around them, especially maybe in some sort of expertise. I come out of banking, but it could have been anything, especially in my coaching world. I've seen this and other sets of leaders are like, Well, if I'm the boss, I have to know everything I have to make the most money. I have to have the most knowledge. I have to have the answers to all the questions, and they get themselves locked down in this prison of knowing. And those are the ones that not only suffer in their minds but often don't get where they want to go. So to me, that's one of the places we connected.
Bruce: 25:58
So can I hold that thought for a second? So when you talk about the helium, is it kind of like if I understand you correctly, they have people around them that are better than they are
Lynn: 26:07
and lift them up.
Bruce: 26:08
But basically what made them great was that they were able to be controlled to give up control.
Lynn: 26:14
That's the whole point
Bruce: 26:15
on. By doing that by giving up control to others, they're teaching by example how they gave up control back to them. Yes, so if he wasn't able to give up or she yeah, let's be correct here. If they weren't able to be in controlled to give up control, they couldn't give up control. And those who couldn't give up control because they wanted to control you, found that they went under or the
Lynn: 26:39
well if they don't go under, they suffer
Bruce: 26:43
not as productive as it could be.
Lynn: 26:45
And there might a lot of
Bruce: 26:46
wasted pressure,
Lynn: 26:48
Yes, but a lot of people are on the surface. They look very wildly successful, but they are suffering because they were afraid to give, like the other core leadership principle I work with that I had to have this really drilled into me. I resisted this at all all costs. But that leadership is the core of the core of the core of the core of leadership is you are asking for help. That's the beginning. I can't run. When I was at the bank, 100,000 people work there. If the CEO could do it all by himself, he wouldn't need all those 100,000 people. But he had to put his entire career in the hands of the others. If you're going to be a significant leader, you are putting your career in the hands of the other.
Bruce: 27:34
So they had to trust themselves to trust way
Lynn: 27:36
get on a horse and people don't really think about this. I've seen people. A lot of people have a mindset around the horse is, Yeah, that's a motorbike. It breathes But it's, you know, you do this and it goes left to do this and it goes right. This was me to do this and it stops. haha not really. But they treat things like that, and so they think they can control the people rather than understanding that you have to be in partnership. And we are, When we get on a horse, we're giving up a lot to that horse because he is going to be our locomotion and we are asking him or her. I've been writing some hers lately. I've always only written hims for a long time, but we're asking them for their help, and they are freely giving it to us. And I had one guy, on a trail ride. He's a cowboy, he said, Yeah, and he said, Not only are we asking them for that kind of help, but we're a predator and we are not only a predator, but we are throwing an animal we have already killed on their back and saying, Oh, by the way, trust us. So of course, this is and so to me, a lot of ways That's actually what's happening in the corporate world too, you know, we kind of like we are actually asking people to get over their survival brains to produce us, to produce for us their very best thinking and most clients I work with, that's the roller and is to give their best thinking to people. They're not making widgets, they are coming up with ideas. And so that's another place where when Bruce and I connected, it was almost like we didn't have to talk about. It was even in the energy field, like the principles that are under his work. They may have different words, but they're so similar to the principles that are under my work. And then now it's like a portal to a whole new world to talk about and share it and learn about. It's taking me to a whole nother level for myself.
Julianne: 29:25
Well, so for your for your business, do you find that there are more groups coming to you for, like that group dynamic of leadership? Or is it individuals coming and saying, I just need to work on myself? What do you deal with the most?
Lynn: 29:37
It's a little bit of both, and it kind of goes back and forth. What's interesting is I take almost no new clients, So most of the people who have worked with may have worked with me for years. Everybody that I've brought here and I've brought quite a few clients to Bruce are people that I have worked with for long layers. And I may work with an individual and then say, OK, we'll bring you in to work with my executive team. so what we do is just and what I like about this kind of ability to keep growing is my job is not to be all knowing, but to continue to, you know, grow so that if they work with me for 10 or 15 years, which a lot of my clients have, then what I taught them 10 or 15 years ago is moot today. But I've got to stay ahead of them and not really ahead of them, but more like in partnership with them, like we're on a learning journey together. And my job is to keep setting the conditions just like we do with the horses, for them to continue to learn and grow. So when you say don't taking something less and and using it to enrich yourself versus taking something that's less and and really less is not the right thing but to be in partnership so that you both grow to me. That's the kind of partnership Bruce offers with the horse and it just right alignment with the away. I want to operate with the people that are in my life. They were teaching me, and I'm teaching them all the time.
Julianne: 30:52
So how did the partnership go today?
Lynn: 30:55
Okay, so today I'm getting back to that one. We've got to get back to today because for the last year, for 13 months, to be precise, because it was December 30th of 2018 I got back on a horse. I would not let the guy that was in the right. It was actually on a raining stallion. I wouldn't let him let go of the reins. And then I started riding with different people and doing a lot of trail rides and so forth. Knowing that I was working on my tools, Bruce and I would talk about it. We would come here and do different sessions, and he would give me assignments like, you know, ride with your eyes closed and so forth. But the last time
Bruce: 31:28
you were never allowed to get on the horse
Lynn: 31:31
here. Now we were in the round pan and you were working on my tools, which by the way we do not have all night. Or I'd be telling you about the many times I have at least two really recent examples where my tools, I think, saved my life. I can
Bruce: 31:44
you tell me about not falling? Well will share that I have to
Lynn: 31:47
share some? But there But But they are saving my life because it's the interrupt that says, Oh, I made a mistake. I don't do anymore as often. I'm more likely go. Oh, what now? So today we finally saddled Marley up. I have worked with him a little bit in the round pen, but I've worked with all the horses in the round pen. So we saddled him up. I got to groom him
Bruce: 32:08
you to me. That what you wanted to do today, what you wanted to get on the horse. I did. And that's what you told me so. But the only reason I let you do that was because how things went the last time you were here, and it was You did well on the ground, and you have been riding so and so That was one reason why the other reason why was because of Marley. Notice. I said to you, Go catch Marley. Because normally I would say to you, go find a horse you want to work with right Today wasn't Go find out what's gonna work with. Because could you have ridden back? Yeah. Could you ridden Winston? Yeah, but would you have learned Let the way you learned with Marley Whether I I felt okay with Marley, right? So, yes. So I thought, OK, I have to put my head back on the microphone. we'll tack him up. Yeah, but we'll see how you react.
Lynn: 33:11
This was what was I I was aware this was happening all day long, and this was actually what makes this method so valuable and what I wish All of the people who do everything, whether they're painting a picture or working with a team is have a picture, and then assess, assess assess as You go. So I've seen people throw people into jobs, today My job was to go get Marley. I knew that how it went was gonna matter. Like it could I stay in the moment while I was getting marley? Am I gonna get over anxious? There were times when we have to dial my energy back in case even if you don't know me, I have a lot of energy. As Bruce said a lot of energy was coming off of me. I move in a pretty high rev space and pace. So I have to go. I have to work to down my energy back and not get excited and remember to stay in the moment. This is all worked for me. This is not something I'm doing naturally. And he was what I noticed all day long, Bruce, was that you were assessing and filling in my foundation so that when I did get on him, there was not a bunch of Swiss cheese happening
Bruce: 34:17
If you did get on him,
Lynn: 34:19
Yes, every step.
Bruce: 34:21
So one was one was monitoring every single second. So you got it him be brought him up. Now, I don't know if you know or not, but you know who is father is?
Lynn: 34:33
Isn't he related to Secretariat or the black stallion black stallion from the
Bruce: 34:40
You know, you said that you read all the books and stuff of That's
Lynn: 34:43
right, the black stallion books.
Bruce: 34:44
I don't know if you made that connection. You
Lynn: 34:46
tell me that you're
Bruce: 34:47
But that's why I wanted to remind you, literally his great great his grandfather.
Julianne: 34:57
It for Marley. It's great, great grandfather he's agreed so two Stallion's ago
Bruce: 35:02
was in the movie The Black Castle, a castle early. He is the one where the scene was where the little boy was on the island and he was writing horse bareback, through the water on his hands, flapping away. That so that's my great great grandfather. Well, you always got today.
Julianne: 35:19
Oh, God,
Bruce: 35:19
I know you are almost there, but we won't get ahead of ourselves.
Lynn: 35:22
I'm trying to figure it out. That's a good thing. Or a bad thank you.
Bruce: 35:26
So you brought Marley up and you can continue from there.
Lynn: 35:33
So we But I did. I got him up. And of course, it's always a challenge because you're going through a couple of gates. You got a couple of horses that want to come out. I was grateful for all the work we've done together because it's a constant game of problem solving, you know, keeping the other horses we had once we got him tacked up, we go down to the round pen and the other two horses decided to join. So we had to do some additional horse management, and Bruce was giving me some really elegant ways to do it and so forth.
Bruce: 36:00
So let's slow it down a second, I love how you were flying through that, so let me set up the scene. You basically have a round pen, which is attached to a little paddock, which is attached to the main paddock, and you can sort of keep the rest of the herd out of the paddock that's attached to the round pin. But in this particular instance, it was not or they were not. They were all, and she had to get back into that paddock to get into the ramp in. So all three horses were in the paddock, heading towards around pen. Now the round door was tied open. The picture was for her to take Marley into the ramp and go to the middle and unsnapped the lead rope. Leave the Halter on because he's tacked up as she was approaching the round pen. Winston gets in front of her, which, by the way, Winston is, is what he's. Dutch warm blood draft cross his father is a shiher,
Julianne: 37:08
and he's quite beautiful but beautiful. Big horse. He's
Bruce: 37:12
actually. The other thing about Winston is
Julianne: 37:15
he's my horse, whinny tails winning from any
Bruce: 37:22
Jane does. The podcast is named after to him. Yes, so anyway, Winston gets into the round pen. So now, as she's making away in now, Max trying to get in. So now she's blocking Mac from getting in while holding Marley. So she's taking the end of the lead role, trying to keep Mac out at the same time, trying to get into the ramping with Marley on. During this period of time, Winston was in there chewing on this and chewing on that, quite content because he's in there. So she finally gets Marley iN. But then mac also got in because she never closed the gate. She being Lynn
Lynn: 38:05
because I failed to. I skipped a step surprise, surprise. You close
Bruce: 38:11
the gate because
Lynn: 38:12
I don't and it was already tied and the game was tied open any way
Bruce: 38:15
level. So now she is trying to get mac out. So she's trying and on mac is just going behind Marley. And she's trying to get Mac and she'll go behind Marley or Mac behind Marley. And
Lynn: 38:28
when Mac is nipping at Marley's, butt and
Bruce: 38:31
ensuring on the saddle, Yeah, on she's like swinging this lead rope at Mac trying to get him out. And all this time, Marley is like, Relax, falling around where a lot of horses you're swinging the lead rope around again. She's like, Come on, get out of here on She's working on energy. But it still has to be frustrating, which Marleys gonna pick up on that. But it was interesting because Marley was fine with all that. But what was important was she You tell me, Lynn realize that Marley was okay with it. So for me watching this, I like this because I first wanted to see how Marley was gonna deal with this pressure. Sure, I wanted lit to see how Marley was dealing with this pressure. So when Marley, if she did get our Marley at least she knew that Marley was handling pressure. So this is all great As far as I'm concerned, So then it got to the point to where she actually gave up on trying to get Mac out, and she went off the Winston. And I believe you finally got Winston out. But now you you got Winston out trying to get Mac out, now, understand. Mac is 1/2 linger, which is half to size of Winston and Smaller than Marley. But the toughest one out. And she couldn't get my mac out. And at that point, I stopped. I had a stop. Okay, Now take a breath. And what was it that I asked you to do?
Lynn: 39:58
Leave round pin with Marley? What happened? Everybody left.
Bruce: 40:05
Which goes back to your corporate, you know? Yeah, it was instead of trying you because you just talked about the corporate person trying to control everything. Absolutely. It was working, but it wasn't working Well, then, that guy give him control and let everybody, you know, pick people who are stronger than him and sort of delegated. Or however you want to call it. Got it all done, which is what you did. You just walked out. They all followed you out, and then you able to untie the door, and then you were trying to get in and I said, No, don't go in. I want you to leave Marley outside. Close the gate. So you're inside and marleys outside And, of course, everybody's waiting also to get it.
Lynn: 40:49
Oh, yeah, it's like a line. It's like we all want to work with linen the ramp in, or maybe just be a herd of horses in the round pen. So
Bruce: 40:55
sp now she had this gate that could swing Either way, it could eat a swing out or swing in and What I said to is, now which way would you like the gate to swing to get Marley in? You want to take it from there?
Lynn: 41:08
I and then I just kind of it was almost a physics thing, and I honestly don't remember. I think I went out with the gate, but that meant only Marley could come in at the gate, then got between Marley and Winnie, as I think, how it went. And a lot of times when I'm in the moment, by the way, my memory is non existence, so you have to tell me, but I think that's how it worked, and the Marley.
Bruce: 41:30
because you're being a conduit you're not really there.
Lynn: 41:31
I'm not really thinking in the same way I'm being conduit, so But he just kept marley than just came in. And honestly, today, I felt like Marley with every move, including with me, you know, chasing off the other horses. My energy. Of course, it was that going out towards the horses, it wasn't going at Marley. And he obviously knew I wasn't talking to him, but he was just his chill as He could be all day long. That is awesome. He was amazing today.
Bruce: 41:54
So you able to get him in?
Lynn: 41:56
I got him in.
Bruce: 41:57
And because you pushed the gate out, let him. Men are not in. So they all came flowing in. It's like because it's gonna be really difficult to zero, bring the gate in and try to hold horses.
Lynn: 42:08
It would have been Really?
Bruce: 42:09
Yeah. Yeah. So by doing it that way, you able to get Marley in close the gate back,
Lynn: 42:14
and he, it's interesting, too, because, of course, I had the lead rope and and in a lot of ways, Marley was sort of like Forget them. I'm with her now. It's like we were a pair And they were, you know, especially Mac was like the annoying little brother. Always. And so then Then we brought him. Well, I love mac because I'm working too. But he was definitely acting like the annoying little brother. And it was like, Oh, now that he's on the lead rope, it's got a saddle on the I can't like this stuff like that. So and then and then we went, and we did some actual, you know, movement before we got on. And I was really glad we did that. So more building of the foundation. So Bruce had me get in the round pin with Marley and get movement, direction, rhythm and track. And it's like, if you can't do it on the ground while what would make you think you can do it? True on his back and with all the writing I've done
Bruce: 43:06
When you didn't move with their recent track, what were you actually working on?
Lynn: 43:09
I was working on myself specifically, I was working on my poles and I was working on, like, my energy and where I was placing it. So whether I was like, pushing on, you know, where I was putting the pressure on his shoulder and let and releasing when it was appropriate moment.
Bruce: 43:27
Okay, So when you're working in your negative pools and getting them balance to you were working on letting him tell you what to do when you knew how to do yes,
Lynn: 43:36
how much pressure he needed.
Bruce: 43:38
What else were you working on and during all of this? Did you have any attached to Marley? Nothing. So there was nothing attached to Marley. And you were asking him to go on the rail at a walk in a particular direction, right? Well, I think he picked direction. But once he picked the direction, you had to keep keeping their. So she had nothing attached. She had a lead rope in the hand and she had to get the horse in a particular direction. Particular rhythm on a particular track or path. And she couldn't touch him. She could not physically touch him. So if you think about it, you working on balancing your poles? So when it says so in other words, when he was off the rail, your negative. But we grow up. We went back on the rails, your pool would come down. He told you what to do when you don't know how close, how far away, how much in front, how much behind? So you actually had to give up control to him? They're being controlled that by teaching by example how to do for him to do the same back to you, right? And what else were you working
Lynn: 44:35
on? My tools. So, patients, good problem solved
Bruce: 44:38
absolutely. Which, if you think about it, is your foundation.
Lynn: 44:41
That's everything. Yes.
Bruce: 44:43
So you're working on self esteem, your foundation. You're building your foundation. So when you build that structure, there's a foundation to put it on right. We so work on the structure that we don't work on a foundation. When we built the structure keeps collapsing, never reaching your full potential. And that's what I was working on with you being off of the horse. The pressure of you, in a sense, being out of your element, to be able to ride the horse because you were riding the horse, your body, you raise the pressure you put on of your legs. So I wanted to make sure that you could ride the horse. And of course, before we even did that exercise, we did finding the middle exercise right? I wanted to make sure it finding the middle. I wanted to make sure Were you feeding the tyrant wolf by trying to be in the middle or where you using finding the middle to build the you? Because that's what this is all about. This is about you having the opportunity to go find the Lynn and build, the lynn, not to find the middle ie accomplish the goal to go with the reason for So therefore, by doing these two different exercises and again, remember, you had a do both directions with The horse Because you have two horses. A lot of people don't realize that. Yeah. And therefore, which means to say you have to work on your balance because when the horse goes in one direction, you using one arm, possibly more than the other one, and vice versa. So now you did all of that. A new obviously passed the test, right?
Lynn: 46:18
I hope so. Because you put me on the horses pretty soon
Bruce: 46:21
Correctamundo. But before you got on the horse, what did you have to first do? What was it that the horse didn't have on that you had then had to put on
Lynn: 46:29
a different the bridle on. Yes, And I had never put that kind of bridle on.
Bruce: 46:33
Yep. Especially the way that I was asking you to put it on. Yeah. Did you Did you notice how your body was, like, rushing and trying to get it on fast? And who told you that was like, OK, slow down. Yeah. How is Marley during all of that?
Lynn: 46:49
So patient never moved.
Bruce: 46:53
Did that help you
Lynn: 46:53
walk away? Oh, yeah.
Bruce: 46:55
You understand which again? That was important for you to see, so keep doing
Lynn: 47:01
so, and and the other, you know, everybody's tak is a little different. The rains were different. The bridal was different. This was an endurance saddle. I've actually this last time I was in an endurance saddle. It was when I came out of the out of the saddle pressure. Anyway, so in all my riding, I've been on a bareback pad. I've been in Western saddle, and I just started with English, so yeah, this is yet another different Saddle me to work on, you know, getting the start lengths, right. , and it's true that Bruce is Stirrups are a little bit longer than my , not by much because I have long legs likes to. That's right, That's right. But, but, you know, getting him up to the mounting block and you know, that's a That's a pretty small target, you know, to get a horse up to a mounting block. And of course, bruce should be the easy way to do this because we reached the point where he was very close to where he needed to be. And it was like, OK, move the mounting block six inches back because, you know, rather than trying to move this horse, that precisely the mounting block is a plastic block and we got up on him and then I stood on him. And
Bruce: 48:05
but talk about the rains.
Lynn: 48:06
So the rains,
Bruce: 48:08
compared what you're accustomed to.
Lynn: 48:10
So I've been like I said, riding both and I've actually been riding with a I don't know if you call it a hacker more, but I've one of the horse I ride the most does not have a bit. It's just got a leather thing crossed under his chin. and the rains there have always been connected, so it's a loop It's like a like a like a lead rope. The western riding I've been doing the rains are almost like a loop of a lead rope if I drop him there. But in this case, this was the long leather ones like I grew up with, and he had me holding him like a totally different way. Which, by the way, is another thing that the tools have been helping me with. There's there's something to be said from muscle memory, which means I can do it without thinking. But there's also something that says I need to stay present. So in this situation, this is what I'm doing so today, fairly quickly. But it did take me some getting used to. I. I kept trying to neck rain because
Bruce: 49:04
what were you able to stay present
Lynn: 49:06
because of the tools and the foundation?
Bruce: 49:08
In other words, your mental tools were equal or greater than the pressure created. Where's in the past? Because you never consciously worked on the mental tools because he's trying to get the picture done right? Your mental tools were equal or greater Oh, so you were in the past thinking that you're in the moment. I am lying in the rest of that story because it would confuse the listeners. Yeah, but But
Lynn: 49:28
I do think here's what I would say that's worth. So I always I'm looking at Is there really change here or is it somebody like if you see those instagram photos for people like, say, they've lost a bunch of weight and all of us would look great if we could walk in our bikinis down the sideways like they do when they pose? You know, how you look, is how, you know, Did you really change or did you not we can Take that great shot. But two years ago, the very first day, Jennifer and I were here. We had a different horse in the round pen, but I never obviously got on that horse and just the act of coiling the Larry. It's that my negative pole up so high that a horse that was 30 feet away from me started running as you're kicking and then bucking my poor daughter, who was in the This is part of the reason she never wanted to come back, was like What the hell? And I'm in what I call my corporate I've got this face, which is I'm under pressure. I am screwing up and I am never letting his ass know that. And of course, you know, it's like it's so obvious to him. And if everybody that like thinks they're covering it up in their work world would understand, we see it. We can't really lie. You're only lying to yourself. The horse told me what was going on. So two years later, through building that foundation you're talking about through raising the pressure through, helping me develop the mental tools, I've come to calling him the Invisible Tools because it's so body as well as mind. You know, it's not just mental. It's like it's emotional, it's physical, it's a sensation, you know that, like managing or not managing but allowing those feelings to rise like the negative pole and then balancing all those tools that I built that we go now, two years later and the pressures much higher and I'm getting on a horse and he's totally chill and it's cause he's a mirror. So is there change? Oh, hell ya there's change, does this work? Oh, hell, yeah. I'm not gonna tell you. It's always fun. And you don't want a bullshit Bruce about. I'm sorry. Can I say that? Of course. Yeah, that I've got this.
Julianne: 51:32
Yeah, well, I know a lot of times, people, I see their faces just kind of gloss over when you're and they're doing the finding the middle thing. And it's like, I don't have to mind. Yeah. And it's this If you don't build up, if you first of all a bruce, can't see where you are, you don't deserve to work with the horse yet, you know? And the cooling of the Larry. It was one thing that in the very early days was the test, because we are true. But finding the middle now, I think, is probably even before that. But the Larry it I mean, if you've never coiled one up. I had never quote one up until I came and worked with Bruce years ago. And so it's like a garden hose and a garden hose, only worse. Still, Me? Yeah. Frustrating is just always going healthy. Thank you. Thanks. That fast.
Lynn: 52:18
Like, you know, they make you just look so easy. But, you know, it's interesting because that whole exercise in the finding the middle. What we're really doing is we're trying to do is get those poles pushed up and what a lot of us are trying to do and not making mistakes is I do not want to have to feel. I feel that sensation rising in me. And I think a lot of what people are doing today is their medicating sensation that they don't want to tolerate. And I truly believe we need to manage those things. A lot of people put the word anxiety on it, and the first thing I say is, Really? Does it have to be? Doesn't day if you give it a label, doesn't give it a lot of power. What if you just said I have a lot of feelings mixing around me and I don't know what to do with him? Well, let's work on what to do with him, and when you work on the middle, you start working with patience because it's like, really, I have to find the middle again. But what I'm really doing is exercising my poles, and I'm learning how to you know, knock my poles out of balance, so I can say, OK, let's find out how to calibrate that to get back in balance. So, as I said, we call that recalibrating the internal guidance system.
Bruce: 53:27
But notice when you were getting on notice how automatically your hands wanted to hold the reins a particular way they did every time you handed that. What did they say to you?
Lynn: 53:38
Fix your hands.
Bruce: 53:39
Change it, come back to the way I'm asking you to hold. Yeah, which is totally foreign to what you wanted to do. Very faring what you're accustomed to. So noticed again. It's all about putting pressure on you or pressure. And can you break those habits? So finally you able to give me the hands the way that I was asking you to. Then once you're able to do that, you finally give up control. Now, I'm not saying that your proficient I did know, but you were more like you said in the moment. You understand? Then we said Okay, go ahead and get on. Once you got on. I can't move until you're ready. Get your feet in. Yeah. Do you remember what I had to do to get him to move forward? Totally different to what you wanted to do
Lynn: 54:28
because you tell may ask me what I was gonna do.
Bruce: 54:31
I wouldn't let you do anything because I wanted to know what your picture was before you actually asked him. So once again, did I change everything that you were accustomed to?
Lynn: 54:41
Everything.
Bruce: 54:42
So once again, Was I putting a whole bunch of pressure on you?
Lynn: 54:45
Yeah.
Bruce: 54:46
As if you weren't enough pressure already being a horse that you had never been on before. You understand it on all of a sudden, it's like you're middle. Hold it. How? I'm not accustomed. This And you want me to do what now To get into moving forward, you know? And how did you deal with all of that?
Lynn: 55:02
I felt like it was once I had the picture. I just did it.
Bruce: 55:07
Why were you able to be so good at it? Because of that moment?
Lynn: 55:11
Because of the pressure my tools were his guys.
Bruce: 55:13
The pressure's on. Tell me about Marley.
Lynn: 55:16
Well, he
Bruce: 55:17
was Marley.
Lynn: 55:18
He was He was Alfa. He was.
Bruce: 55:20
How do you know?
Lynn: 55:21
how do we know?
Bruce: 55:24
How did you know he was Alpha? What was your negative pole?
Lynn: 55:31
My pole was completely zero. What
Bruce: 55:34
was his pool zero. Would you have known of its pole was five? Yes. What you're known of. Its boot was 4, huh? Three,
Lynn: 55:42
I think. I
Bruce: 55:43
know. Yeah. If his pool was 123456 or seven, I would not have done for you.
Lynn: 55:49
May. I don't want his pole up at all
Bruce: 55:52
So how do you understand why I was okay?
Lynn: 55:55
Because his pole was down,
Bruce: 55:56
even though it might have been a one to. Have to hold the reins that way. Yeah. Even though it was maybe a one or two because I was asking you to move your legs a particular winning it on the move. What was his number?
Lynn: 56:09
Zero?
Bruce: 56:10
Just like when you were trying to get back out of the round pen? Yeah. You zero. He realized that I would not want your energy was going up. That was in the corporate world. When somebody's energy's going up is everybody get being affected by it.
Lynn: 56:26
They are.
Bruce: 56:28
It's another horses that haven't done this work. When the person's energy is going up, are they going to start reacting to that energy
Lynn: 56:33
depending on their training?
Bruce: 56:35
You on this one. So do you understand why I had you 1st 1 leg, then the other.
Lynn: 56:44
Well, the first. Yes. Because you actually wanted his shoulder. His you. We were picking which leg let off. It wasn't random.
Bruce: 56:51
So notice how? I didn't just tell you. Explain to you why? So you can understand it. So let's say I explained it to you and you didn't understand it. How would you have known that you didn't understand what I asked of you?
Lynn: 57:04
My pole would have gone up.
Bruce: 57:06
And should you have said something? Absolutely. But if you said something would mean Would that not mean that you're making a mistake?
Lynn: 57:12
Not, but not anymore.
Bruce: 57:14
In the past, you would have. Yeah, but you understand why I said to you what I said to you. Explain it to you. So you understood it. So you could now take it and make it your own and develop the U right? So what I asked you to do was, let's say, for example, use your left leg on him on. So it's a buck. So you're asking him it's not a hold bump and asked. And what was he supposed to do if you bumped your left leg. Which direction
Lynn: 57:41
move slightly to the right with his right leg.
Bruce: 57:43
So what? One has nice from you. Bump with the left. He was sort of move away from that to the right so that you get basically if you think about it, they have to move the right leg in the left leg. So by bumping your sort of asking left leg right leg, because I don't want you to get on him and all of a sudden squeeze and he's like oh geez. You understand? So what I did was I broke it down to instead of getting all four feet moving. Let's just get one foot, then another one. Yeah, yeah. Then slowly. Then how did I get you to turn?
Lynn: 58:18
So I sort of lifted up a little bit on the reins and then bumped with the leg. Or gave pressure to the leg. I wanted to know.
Bruce: 58:28
How bad did you want to neck read?
Lynn: 58:30
Oh, my gosh. At first I was neck reining like crazy. Like driving him and , as I often am Overly helpful. I
Bruce: 58:38
actually have to admit I didn't notice you neck reigning that much, but anyway,
Lynn: 58:43
yeah, you called it out a few times. Look,
Bruce: 58:47
but how did you finally did you finally break through again and sort of instead of neck reigning, Just take from the front and put to the side? Yeah, on depending on, Like, I was actually pretty impressed when you got into leg yeiled over. Uh huh. Did you feel the front legs at the back legs going sideways
Lynn: 59:08
Oh, yeah, that first. Right. Early on, we did a dressage move where he was. What? He I don't know what you call that, but I have done that a couple only a couple of times on the horse I practiced on did we did that? They did it beautifully, too, So, yeah, And then And then we went to circles. And I did some clover leafs and
Bruce: 59:26
so noticed. First, I want you to do in a particular way. Yeah, I was one that's calling the pictures. And then I gave you the pictures. Yeah. Why did I do that? You think?
Julianne: 59:35
Well, it's part of the building of the tools,
Lynn: 59:43
and that is the end of part one of this podcast. I know it ended a little abruptly because we're looking for the right place to break it and set you up for Part two. We went a lot longer on that particular discussion than we expected to, but we felt like the topics were worth diving into. One of the things I have noticed in the years I've been working with Bruce is that each of the concepts things like the mental tools, the negative positive pole, letting it tell you what to do, when to do, how to do those different topics just continue to have layer after layer after layer of impact. So we decided to break this down into a multi part podcast, and I hope you'll stay tuned for Part two.
Listen On
