#16 Jen Maneely, How a Moment of Vulnerability Changed Everything

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Welcome to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. For this episode, I'm speaking with Jen Maneely. Jen is the founder and president of Maneely consulting and the author of dear parents strategies to help your loved one through addiction. She's also my daughter. We've actually done several podcasts together over the years talking about our story through her addiction and our adventures of working together as a mother and daughter team. But in this episode, our conversation is on a new topic, at least for the two of us, horses. Now, if you've followed me at all, you've seen and heard that I've been taking horseback riding lessons for the last couple of years. And I'm often weaving in stories about things I've learned about myself along the way. I really do work with horses as a way of taking my game around pressure to another level, Jen, and I decided, though, to just go do a trail ride with my riding instructor last Thursday. And we showed up knowing we're gonna learn something because we always learned something. But this was not a lesson in the usual sense of the word. It really turned into like a profound life changing experience for Jen, I mean, we couldn't have predicted what happened. But having had many of my own life changing experiences, and also, you know, coaching a lot of people through those huge moments of transformation. Sometimes people actually don't want to share their deepest insecurities and show sort of with transparency, what occurs as they learn some of the deeper life lessons. But a few days after this, Jen, actually told me she was still getting aha's. And I said, Hey, can you talk about it? Will you be willing to share it? And she said, Absolutely. So we sat down and recorded this podcast to share with you what happened. Because, you know, I was thrilled. It's like, what Jen went through was like a roadmap for true change. It's messy, it's scary, it's emotional, it feels extremely uncomfortable. And then it's amazing and fulfilling, and confidence building and just so rewarding. So you get to see that entire sequence in this conversation. It has all of that and more. I would really love to hear what you think of this about this conversation. And you can actually give me feedback directly on my website, all you have to do is you go to the podcast page on my website at Lynn Carnes calm, and click the Send a voicemail button on the right hand side of the page. It's super easy to do. It helps me know what you like what you'd like to see in future episodes. And of course, also, especially if something stores you, you know, share this with your friends, your colleagues, your family. And I hope you enjoy this episode with Jen maneelyi. Jennifer, or Jen, welcome to the podcast.

Jen: 3:13

It's weird when you call me Jennifer. I immediatly go into like, what did I do wrong?

Lynn: 3:19

My mommy voice so everybody, welcome. You have already heard in the introduction that I am having a podcast today with my daughter, Jen. Hi, Jen Maneely. Jennifer, who was not going to be called Jenny when she was a child. Although I might have called her genereux and a lot of other variations. You made some song?

Jen: 3:42

Jen a Rooney.

Lynn: 3:44

Jen Jen Jen Jen. Jen Jen. Jen Jen was definitely Yeah, name. So okay, so does it feel like y'all have just stepped into a family discussion that you kind of have? So and actually, the point of our podcast today is to actually bring you into a family discussion in a way. Because Jen, Jen and I had an experience last week with my horseback riding instructor. And it was one of those moments. It was like a life altering moment, or series of moments. Jennifer's nodding, right. Yeah. See, I named you Jennifer. And I can't stop it. But it was a life altering moment. And you agreed to come on the podcast and describe what happened. And one of the reasons that I think it's interesting to talk about how a normal trail ride turned into something else. Yeah, life lesson is a lot of people have been watching me I if you follow me on social media, you see a lot of horse pictures. It's like, land fell off a horse three years ago, and all of a sudden, well, there was kind of radio silence on horses for about a year and a half is is almost a year and a half before I even consider getting back on Have a horse. And then all of a sudden, I'm like this horse crazy person. Like, I look like a 12 year old that's lost your mind and you know, wants daddy to buy her a horse. And what it's actually been is more of a series of life lessons like what you had. Yeah, but nothing has been like what you experienced.

Jen: 5:16

It was intense. Yeah,

Lynn: 5:17

yes. To say the least. So what? Where would you want to start with that? I have lots of ways in for myself, but I just like, let's just start. I want to hear from you.

Jen: 5:28

Well, it's always really interesting when you go to, like, I always say when I go Lynn you're not not Lynn but the the

Lynn: 5:38

horse riding skaters name is Lynn?

Jen: 5:40

Yeah, that's gonna be confusing. So the horse riding Instructure instructor will ask like, so what do you want to learn today? And I always say the same thing? Well, I don't really have any expectations. I don't really know. Because I go in with the mindset of this is a learning day. But on this day, I went in with the mindset of expecting to go on a trail,

Lynn: 6:02

right, because let's give some quick background on lynn brown. So people understand a little bit about how this came to be. Yeah. Because a lot of us have been on vacation and gone on a trail ride, you show up, the horses are saddled, they tell you, this is how you ride them, you pull back to stop, you pull out to the right to go right, you pull out to the left to go left, and you kick them to get them to go. There's four instructions. Yeah, the horses are almost treated like machines, pretty much. And that's what it looks like also in the movies, then you go work with Lynn brown at transitions, which is here locally. And Lynn has done a lot of work in the addiction community a lot, a lot of work in the leadership world. She not only works with me and what I would call a leadership coaching capacity and a riding capacity, but she works some of my clients. So she has a broad range. And she also happens to have you know, you could call it a dude ranch. Yeah. If you watch Heartland, which I do, she's got the dude ranch side where she will do guest rides on the trail. The one thing that you have to know this is important context for everything else you'll hear about this story is Lynn's standard, regardless if you're in a trail ride, or in an intense learning situation, is to cultivate trust and connection with your horse. Yeah. And, and work with the mind of the horse. And it's 50,000 years of DNA, where it has four basic needs, safety, comfort, food and play. Yeah, and the safety being number one, number one, number one, and of course, the trust being a key part of all of that. So with that context, you thought in a way we were going to have a trail ride.

Jen: 7:41

Well, that was the goal

Lynn: 7:42

that kind of a goal and kind of what we had booked. Yeah,

Jen: 7:45

that was the goal. So I like I knew that when we go in for learning days, and we go in for groundwork, we go in, you know, that mentality that I have no expectations, we go in for a trail ride, and I'm kind of expecting it to be the trail ride like, I knew I was going to have to go, like catch the horse. Because that's like a big thing in the grooming, although that was an interesting experience. And I would say that, on one hand, I am a huge animal lover, I have always felt really connected to animals, period. Horses I've always felt connected to but I guess, in the back of my mind, have always also been a little intimidated because there's so much bigger than me and like I know that there are some safety concerns in terms of they can make one bad move one bad kick, one, whatever, get into fear and and you end up either getting severely injured or killed yourself. Yeah. So you know, when it comes to dogs, I feel like I'm pretty well protected. I can protect myself. Any other animal I can pretty well protect myself horses, especially then being so skittish in so many ways. I am a little intimidated, because I'm like, I there is no way for me to move this. I don't

Lynn: 9:10

know how 1200 pound animal

Jen: 9:11

pound animal if they don't have any intentions on moving. You know, if they don't want to move, they're not going to move. And there's nothing that I can do to get them to do that. So I also come in with a little bit of an intimidation, a little bit of I think even from like a really, really young age and this is important context. I just remember being I think it was camp Thunderbird. And you weren't there but it was camp Thunderbird. We were around horses and for some reason, the lady that was teaching this is the only thing I remember about horses By the way, this was so long ago but the only thing that stuck in my mind was she said don't ever walk behind a horse because they may kick you

Lynn: 9:54

and that's the basic rule especially for beginners is like there is a kicking zone stay out of it, no matter what. And I

Jen: 10:02

do think that she tried to explain the rules of like, you know, let them know where you are. So either always keep a hand on them, or keep really far away for a while for my entire life. Whenever I was around horses, I was like, Well, I'm not getting anywhere near that kicking zone ever. And so I've been over the years, I've been just terrified to even walk behind a horse. Yeah. From that moment, even though nothing bad has ever happened. But I just immediately when she said that I envisioned a horse kicking and killing me so.

Lynn: 10:35

So the lesson went in

Jen: 10:36

the lesson went in the only lesson from that day that I can ever remember because this was kinda how old was I like 11.

Lynn: 10:42

And 11 1010 years old, 10

Jen: 10:45

10 year old brain says if you walk behind a horse, you're gonna die.

Lynn: 10:49

Well, I think I had the same lesson when I was a kid and had the same problem. So yeah, I totally identify.

Jen: 10:56

Yeah, and, and since and since then, and from all the stories that I've heard of people accidentally getting killed by horse, they were trying to trailer them. They just weren't paying attention, and they end up getting hurt. And these people are horse people. And I'm like, Well, if horse, people are getting killed by their own horses, you know, but obviously not wanting to live in fear. Here I am. On that day with Lynn Brown,

Lynn: 11:22

getting ready to go do a trail ride, getting ready to go do it. So one of the things that I remember you mentioned, we went to go catch the horses. Yeah, which anybody that's ever tried to catch a horse that doesn't want to be caught. You know, that's

Jen: 11:37

a lesson on itself,

Lynn: 11:38

and the lesson all in and of itself, but Lynn is very good at learning how to create that trust and connection with the horse, the minute you walk in with your halter. And on that day, ironically, Lynn's horse was being difficult to catch the horse I catch every week was being difficult to catch and the horse that you went to go catch walked right up to you. And we had the halter on him in no time.

Jen: 11:58

Well, and we've had some time with this horse or like, I've had some time with this horse in prior experiences getting on the horse. And so I've already felt really connected to the horse to begin with. And so it was an easy catch. The horse that she had me on is very patient, even when I'm trying to fumble, do the little knot and all that stuff has always been very patient very kind with the beginners. And because I love animals, I also just in Connect Well, you know, I was already right from that I was very well connected. Yeah. And, and I was very happy with that how things transpired. So I'm feeling all confident in that moment, getting the horse out of the ring to walk down to groom the horse. Yeah, which this is where I started. So you know, we get back in, in the barn to groom the horse. And we had some challenges in that not because of anything that I was doing, but because of the situation there was a couple of guest horses. Yeah. And my horse did not like the horse that was in there and was constantly you know, trying to be aware of what that horse, sniffing doing its dominance thing, basically. And when a horse a 1200 pound animal wants to be dominant over another horse. Now you have two pretty well sized horses and yours to take into account as well. Right? All in a very small space. I kinda start feeling my fear of dying

Lynn: 13:43

the horse so let's paint a picture because a lot of people that are listening might have even been in barns and seeing how different people do things and wondering, okay, what was the circumstance where were these horses Why was this like this? And it's I think it's an important distinction because the way Lynn works her horses, she doesn't even have cross ties in the barn. Yeah, and a lot of people will cross tie horses so they can't move. And that's for the human safety. But what it does for the horse is actually keep him from being able to turn around and look and gather his own courage. Yeah. And lynn's philosophy. She's a natural horsemanship trainer. This is the philosophy from which we're following, which is let the horse look around and assess the situation. And you can show him his own courage, right, rather than tying him up where everybody's, you know, the people are safe, but the horse has to like basically stay at a low boil of fear. So her idea is let's all face our fears together. Yeah. And so what ended up happening and to some degree, if I had been thinking I wouldn't have put you right in front of the stall with extra horse in it, but these two horses were in stalls. Most of her horses stuff sit installs, her horses are pastured unless they're being worked with. So we both had our horses tied up. up

Jen: 15:00

and well and also remember Lynn, Lynn was talking to the guy that was on the tractor so she wasn't in the barn to kind of direct us know, you and I went in and you and I and the blind leading the blind in that moment well,

Lynn: 15:13

you know, I, I had some degree I the day before I had been in the same exact circumstance with the horse, I was with. And what she asked me was, did you let your horse sniff the other horse? And I said, Yes, I did. I thought that was a good idea, kind of like letting dogs greet each other. She said, Well, here's the problem. Now you added a third person to your two person, herd third horse to your to person who are two horse herd. Yeah. Meaning that now they have to figure out who's dominant. Right. And so I've made sure to tell you not to do that that day, because that's about the sum total of the knowledge I had. Yeah, and I didn't, you're like don't let that horse sniff because then they have to start the whole dominance game. And you have to figure out how to be dominant and, and so that was asking a lot of you lynn was not in the barn. And I said, you know, just keep comforting him as you groom him. And Lynn was not there. But he kept dancing around.

Jen: 16:01

And I couldn't get them to sit still. And and so I was constantly me, I was constantly in in my fear was going up. But I was trying to get the horse to stop moving. I'm trying to get around to the other side, because I got one side groom because he's he has one of his sides against the wall.

Lynn: 16:19

Yeah, he pinned himself. So he keeps

Jen: 16:22

an eye on the horse. So I got the one side really good. Well, he was he is paying attention. And now it's time to move on to the other side. Yeah, you know, and again, my fear is like, this horse is going to pin me in the wall.

Lynn: 16:36

Yeah, and you knew you needed to move him. But you only could do that if you went to his backside,

Jen: 16:40

I had to go around to the kicking the kicking zone, which I was in, he was not comfortable in that moment, either. So there was a lot going on in that

Lynn: 16:50

fear. And both of you was just like

Jen: 16:52

it was increasing steadily increase both of

Lynn: 16:54

you were once stacking one layer of fear on top of another and then Lynn came in the bar.

Jen: 17:00

And then Lynn came in now. Also, you know, this is this is important. It'll play a little bit of a role later is I have a fantastic ability to hide emotions. I mean, yes, you I mean, like, hide, so I can be confident and you can see confidence and I can be scared shitless of my life and you will see confident That's

Lynn: 17:22

exactly right it, you are very, very, very hard to read.

Jen: 17:28

Yeah, in those moments, especially, you know, because I'm gonna, I'm probably going to show you what you want, because that's where I want to be not where I actually feel. And I don't want you to worry, because I think somewhere deep down, I'm like, Jen, don't worry. Don't worry. Like, it's not that big of a deal, even though it kind of was but at the same time, it's like Jen, you're okay, you're okay. You're okay. Just be okay. Just be okay. Just be okay. So I'm trying to hide it,

Lynn: 17:58

which means that you are one thing inside and another thing outside. Oh, absolutely. And what's what's also really cool working with Lynn is the horses are super good at reading that. Yeah. So they will telegraph what, when something's off. far better than as humans do. Yeah. But to compound things, we have this other horse. So that said, When Lynn walked in, she had to assess is this horse nervous because of big horse in the stall or because of the person trying to work with him or both? And so you remember what she did immediately to bring his poll down?

Jen: 18:33

Yeah. And at one point when she did come in, and I think because, you know, I can't remember exactly all the things she came in, she started calming down the horse was getting even more geared up now she brought her third horse in Yes. So well, she brought her horse and so now we've added another horse to the equation who was also a little trying to pay attention. So now there was even more fear for me. And I think at one point when she came in, and this was right before she was telling me how to do the dominance game, but I completely dropped everything lost my mind and ran out the barn. This was going behind the horse, the horse one of the horses where I thought, you know, because cuz I was freaked out because I was running. And because I was afraid I was going to store to the horse in that moment. I was like, well, this horse may kick me and I don't even give a shit because I'm going to die either way that

Lynn: 19:29

when you when you get teary eyed and no, no, no before that.

Jen: 19:32

This was no This was before. This was before that. I missed that. No, I ran out the barn.

Lynn: 19:37

Oh, I do remember that. Yeah,

Jen: 19:38

you went up the other side. And I just but this is so I turned around as soon as I left the barn and tried to like keep calm and no one could really see how freaked out in that moment. I was right even Lynn couldn't tell how freaked out. I was but that's when she just went into her mode of playing like I literally ran from my life and she's like, let me show you how to play the dominance. You know, so so she did teach me and I was paying attention to her about like, okay, now she's in between the horse that the other horses are having a problem with and, you know, saying, hey, you're okay and so so we were going through that lesson. And, you know, then we proceeded to groom and she was teaching me other techniques to get the horse to the other side and kind of move him off to moving off the wall and she moved him off the wall, and I was trying to be okay with walking behind the horse, even though it wasn't really okay, walking behind the horse, right? You know, every time it was like a huge fear. It was not a brave anything. Yeah, it was. I'm gonna keep pretending like I'm okay. Even though I'm actually afraid for my life right now.

Lynn: 20:52

Which, interestingly enough horses because of their finely tuned senses, they, they what they read more than anything is in congruence. Yeah. So they're reading body language, they're reading vibration, they're reading energy. But if what they're feeling from you, and what they're seeing from you are two different things. That that sends a giant red flag in a horse. Yeah.

Jen: 21:16

And I was having a really hard time with that. And right around, you know, things, things are progressing in terms of the stacking for my fear. And I was starting to get really insecure to the point of, I do what I have done for a long time, I don't even realize honestly, that I do it anymore, where I just started kind of trying to disconnect and dissociate, sure, you know, and like, just not be present, because I needed to soothe myself. And the only way I knew how to do that, which is not what you want to do in this situation. But the only way I know how to do that was just completely disconnect. Sure, and dissociate. And because I didn't really know, I was very uncomfortable, and not really knowing what I needed to be doing anyway. And I thought that I was done with the grooming and like, we were sitting around, I'm like, okay, when are we going to saddle?

Lynn: 22:08

Because this is just a trail ride

Jen: 22:10

I'm still trying to just get on the damn trail. Ready? Like, I just want to get out of this fucking barn right now. Yeah, and get on the trail, because I just need everything to be okay. Right? And you know, when you are on a trail, especially, you know, with with Lynn Brown, the trail rides aren't, they're a lot more dangerous on on the trail rides that we go because you never know what you're going to run into.

Lynn: 22:38

And so and these are all three responsive horses that are listening to you. They are not nose to tail horses. Yeah, that have been beaten down to the point that they just follow the horse in front of them, right? They're waiting further instructions their way Exactly.

Jen: 22:52

And so Lynn could tell that my horse was not ready. And, and I was not ready to continue doing anything other than trying to just get the damn saddle on. But in the meantime, I was waiting, and I do what I do, which is I disconnect by pulling my phone out and jumping on Facebook. I mean, like, because it was like the soothing thing, right? It's like, it was so unconscious. I don't even know that I realized I had my phone in my hand. Yeah, little dopamine kicks, you know, like, so automatic. And here comes Lynn and she gets onto me about being on the phone, because well, and she's you know, she's she's very directed and very pointed when she when she says certain things. And she was just like, hey, instead of you being on your phone right now, why don't you try to take care of your horse and make him feel a little bit better. And in that moment, I, I was got I got upset. I knew I shouldn't have been upset. And I knew what she was saying was accurate and right. But it just hit me really strong in that moment. I'm already getting emotional. I know.

Lynn: 24:01

I can understand because at the very time, like it's almost like you didn't The last thing you needed was to feel scolded.

Jen: 24:07

I didn't need to feel scolded in that moment

Lynn: 24:08

And not not that she was necessarily even scolding you. But I see how you would take it that but

Jen: 24:13

but in that moment in that in that where I was at that no one knew about where I was at. I felt like a little kid that had just gotten in trouble.

Lynn: 24:23

And why can't I do anything right? And I can't even help this horse. What are you? And I'm like, What do

Jen: 24:27

you mean, I've been growing this damn horse forever. It's not my fault. He hasn't calmed down yet. Like, I don't know what else to do here. Like, I'm tapped out of my tools. I'm tapped out of my resources. I don't have enough mental resources anymore to like, What do you mean? And so I put my phone back in the pocket and I hit it.

Lynn: 24:48

By the way, you just did that little girl voice right? Right in that Yeah.

Jen: 24:51

What do you mean?

Lynn: 24:54

I try. I know, I know. I know this one because I have that little girl voice too, right.

Jen: 24:59

And it's You know, me reverting back into that that child, I start grooming and I start doing, you know, whatever. And I'm sensitive but I'm not, like so far gone. But she said something else. And I think she was still going on about the phone and why it was important about to make the horse feel safe.

Lynn: 25:20

And she was coaching you to do she was coaching that give him comfort, basic idea.

Jen: 25:26

Well, and I just in that moment, anything that she said was just pissing me off. Like, like, I can look at it. But in that moment, I was, I was pissed. I was angry. I wanted to lash I wanted to cuss her out. Really. I was like, you, bitch. That's where I went, you know. And, and when I get angry, which, you know, kind of as we know, anger is really just fear. But when I get angry, I have a tendency to start crying, and I hate that. But I do. Yeah. And so in that moment, I just couldn't handle anything else. And I lost it. And I left,

Lynn: 26:03

I left and you left in tears.

Jen: 26:05

I left in absolute tears. It's like Get the fuck I mean, I didn't say this. But in my mind, I was like, Oh, we got away

Lynn: 26:09

from we got the message. Don't even like

Jen: 26:11

don't even come after me right now. Don't talk to me. Like cuz they would not have liked anything that have come out of my mouth in that moment. And because I knew I just needed to calm down and figure out what was going on. And that was the truth is, I went by she has this little pond in I went by and

Lynn: 26:28

and we stayed in the barn. She actually looked at me,

Jen: 26:30

I was glad.

Lynn: 26:31

And she actually said, What happened? And I said, I said, I'm not sure. But I think you might have touched a mommy button. Because you've seen this.Well, I have this Right, right. Everybody has a mommy button. We have actually thousands of mommy buttons.

Jen: 26:48

Yeah.

Lynn: 26:51

I said I think he might have touched a mommy button. But I don't know.

Jen: 26:54

I think that's so funny. I didn't even know that part. I didn't know that you had said that to her. But no, that's so accurate, though.

Lynn: 27:01

And so I kept working with my horse. She was working with her horse. And you know, the question at this point, the last thing on our mind was or on our in our goals was is there gonna be a trail ride? right is the question was, what's Jennifer's next move?

Jen: 27:16

What's my next move? That was my question to Yes. And I spent a good it felt like forever. I don't really know how long 510 minutes is five to 10 minutes, something like that. Yeah, I feel like it was 10. And I, I was really just working on calming down breathing and legitimately just trying to figure out what had happened because I didn't know myself because I didn't understand

Lynn: 27:38

again, like this when you when you stormed out of the barn. In a cloud. It was really a cloud of emotion. And there was a lot of emotion. There was anger. There was fear. There was hurt. There was helplessness. Yeah. But I as I saw that happen, and of course as your actual mother. Yeah. There was a part of me that wanted to run to comfort you as well. But I knew you needed. I needed I needed that. But the last thing that we thought we were thinking man is Alright, we're still having a trail right now. Like all of a sudden this went from a trail ride to you came back in the barn.

Jen: 28:13

Yeah, well, and that, you know, before I came back in the bar, and I finally had gotten myself somewhat clear about because I knew that if I'm sitting here in full anger, and in tears, there's something else deeper going on. And so I needed to take a moment to really reflect on because I've done the work on myself, I've been able to, you know, figure out in those moments that it's not really a "You bitch" situation. It's more like, let's, let's really think about this. And I don't

Lynn: 28:46

even know which by the way, let's acknowledge that's a very big piece of awareness because it's easy to justify at that moment. There's something wrong with me there's something wrong with the horse is something wrong with her. My mother should never have brought me here you had a lot of places you i was

Jen: 29:01

i was stomping in my mind. I was stomping and throwing to temper tantrum on the way she spoke to me and what she was telling me and and I think what I kept asking myself in that cloud of emotions was what did I need that I wasn't getting? You know, and, and that was because I was like, obviously, you're needing something and you're not getting it. And so you're feeling safe, unsafe, like and that was where I was like, okay, unsafe, unsafe, and I was pissed because I started listening to the voice that was saying, Why the hell is she talking and giving the horse more than what she's giving me right now? Mm hmm. You know, and I was like, doesn't she understand course, it's coming through the voice of anger in my head and going yeah, this bitch is not giving me.what she's giving the horse don't I mean as much.

Lynn: 30:05

So you were having a little sibling rivalry with the horse. Apparently you don't even have a sibling,

Jen: 30:11

a sibling, but I was, I was I was upset. And so but while I was diving in, I was like, I kept asking myself, but what's your responsibility?

Lynn: 30:22

Oh, good question, you

Jen: 30:22

know, but like, Okay, if you're not getting what you need, are you asking for it? Are you letting anyone know? Are you telling but Jen, you know, damn, well, you dissociate and you hide your fucking feelings.

Lynn: 30:37

So you had like different parts talking to you, you had the justifying, talking to you, you had the responsible part talking to you,

Jen: 30:44

I had the angry part, talking as well, that was. I, you know, I know, I'm cussing a little bit, but trust me in my head, there was a lot more cuss words coming out. Um, but you know, I was I was just trying to piece it all. And I don't think I had it all figured out. By the time I went into the barn. And I don't even know, in my mind, when I walked back to the barn. I was like, I'm just gonna go ahead and let them go on this trail ride. And I'm gonna go sit in the car and wait for him. Because I am done

Lynn: 31:12

I'm over the I

Jen: 31:14

I am over this whole thing right now. And I was like, I may come back. But I don't know, because I'm over it today.

Lynn: 31:23

And I will tell you, I've been there with that exact horse Phoenix, who actually is a rescue horse who had been on the circuit for the eventing in the Olympics. And he had been sort of treated as if he didn't matter, to the point where he actually flipped himself backward and cross ties now. Oh, wow, when he was before he was rescued, because he's so hated being saddled, and just just treated like a machine, right. And so as Lynn would train me, to saddle him and be gentle and try to get him to show trust and connection. I remember many times not being able to get myself in a position where he could trust me because he could, he could read me. And I remember being so frustrated and looking at her going, this is the best I can do. And you know, she had to really, really get deep with me and coach me on recognizing that I had the vibration as the human in the room, basically, yeah, I had to work with the vibration of myself as a human in the room to help him. So I can really identify with that feeling of helplessness and going, Why can I not just get this horse to relax and trust me, and he was not dancing around, by the way. I mean, he was for a while, but we're not talking about him being completely out of control. But he wasn't showing any signs of relaxation either right. He was showing what I call zombie horse. Yeah. Which is basically a horses way of getting on his phone and disconnecting. Right?

Jen: 32:53

Yeah. And, yeah, and so I was just kind of, you know, I felt just so far gone. Yeah, on that day that I was checking out. I was like, dude, I'm just like, I just wanted this day to be done. Like, in my head. I was like, I'm gonna go sit in the car. I'm gonna wait for em. And when they get back, it'll be you know, just a hard day, and I'll deal with it. And I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna take a nap. And I'm gonna wake up and I'm going to do some stuff. And then I'm going to go to bed and like this day will be over.

Lynn: 33:23

cheered already got this is the morning and you'd already gone to bed and your mind

Jen: 33:27

had already gone to bed in my mind. Exactly. No, I was our I was just done. It was like, I'm just like, I'm Netflix and chill for the rest of the day. You know,

Lynn: 33:36

and good ole binge watching on NetFlow.

Jen: 33:38

Yeah, cuz I was just, I like, I just didn't feel like I could do the rest of the day. And so when I walked back into the barn, that's kind of where I was at. And for some reason, that's not what happened.

Lynn: 33:51

Right? For some reason. It was so so take us back to that moment. So what did happen when you walked in the barn? Because we had Yeah, 30 to 60 seconds, we had a major shift.

Jen: 34:03

Yeah, we did. And, and, you know, the whole time it's, it's this is, you know, I haven't been brought this up, but like the last, you know, couple of weeks, I really been diving into Brene brown and her Daring Greatly, which is all about vulnerability. Oh, yes. And I have already emotional. I know, we all love vulnerability, right? We

Lynn: 34:25

love We love BRenee brown showing us about how she's being vulnerable about being vulnerable. So thank goodness, somebody has come along and given away,

Jen: 34:33

man, but but you know, the whole time I was I had heard her kind of voice in the back cuz I've been listening to Audible. So I've literally had her voice in the back of my head. You know, and, and I guess in that moment, she came through more than more than what I wanted to do, which was, show your vulnerability. Let them know what's going on. And just like tell them talk to them. It doesn't have to be. Clear, it doesn't have to. Maybe you end up cussing them out. It's fine.

Lynn: 35:05

They're big girls.

Jen: 35:06

They're big girls, they can handle it. So, you know, I did, I came back into the barn, and I just started talking through my part of everything of going. I feel, you know, disconnected. And we've we've been sharing a lot about, like, what was already going on. But at the time when it was happening, I didn't know I didn't know that I was dissociating. Because it was just so automatic. And but then, you know, I was able to actually share with like, I think, you know, I dissociated, I was upset because I felt like you were giving, you know, and like I was in tears the whole time. Yeah, but I was being honest with my needs. And I was telling her like, hey, I've been really freaked out this whole time. And she goes, I would have had no idea.

Lynn: 35:57

In fact, she The minute you walked in, she kind of got off of the whole, like, we're not going to go on a trail, right? And she just looks at us said, Hey, what's really going on? Yeah. Which is such a great question. Yeah. She

Jen: 36:09

does, like talk to me. Yeah. You know, and she had also changed her demeanor.

Lynn: 36:14

Right? Because Because she realized she was not dealing with, you know, somebody who didn't care. Yeah, right. Like, yeah, clearly, she knew as soon as you cried and left, it's like, oh, wait, she does care. And then, yeah, you know,

Jen: 36:28

and I think she was before her, her perception was someone that was taking this all very lightly, right. And what she was attempting to do was snap me out and realize how important this stuff really was. So her perception was, I was not caring, I was not taking this very seriously. And she wanted me to take it seriously, because she knew how dangerous this could be, and how important the safety for the horse in the trust and all of this stuff for us to be connected. So that's the way she was treating me a little bit without understanding what was really happening, which was, you know, like, Wait a second, you look fine,

Lynn: 37:11

too. I looked fine. And that's back to what you said at the beginning. You know, when you're not confident, you still look confident? Yeah. So then once you were vulnerable, that was pretty, it was a pretty powerful moment.

Jen: 37:22

Yeah. So I think, you know, she kind of changed her demeanor a little bit in that moment. And again, like, I'm getting teary eyed, just even going back there. But it was such a powerful moment to sit in front of people and really tell people like what was really going on, and then able to get, you know what I needed in that moment, which in that was the vulnerability piece of it was going, I'm gonna be able to get what I need. And, and, you know, that's, I still didn't really think we were going on a trail, or I didn't think that we were moving forward. I just knew that in that moment. You know, it was important. But as I was talking, I think it was really interesting, because I was really talking it out as being vulnerable. Everything was fine. And then he asked me a question, and now it makes sense. Why you asked me this. I didn't understand it before. But now I now I do where you're like, do I need to leave?

Lynn: 38:21

Oh, yeah.

Jen: 38:22

I'm like teary eyed. I'm talking everything's fine. I wasn't even thinking about you. To be honest. You know, I wasn't I didn't have a problem with you being there. But it was just it like, kind of struck me as like,

Lynn: 38:33

Why did she do that? What she need to what I think it makes sense now, cuz you were when you were like, Oh, I think you hit a mommy button. Absolutely. And and so there was this moment because Lynn, Lynn quit being the trail riding guide. We walked in and she said, Hey, what's really going on? Talk to me? Yeah, she actually went and went more into what I would call her leader therapy mode, which was exactly what you needed. And actually, even before I think I asked, I don't know, timing. It doesn't even really matter. But she was standing next to Phoenix you were walking in. And then she said, Can you come stand next? Yeah, Phoenix, and just start talking. Yeah. Now what was really interesting is as your inner world and your outer world, it was like you were creating a resolution between the two. Yeah, where it had been disconnected and almost like staticky. It was like it was coming into harmony, even though what was coming into harmony was what was the inside which was your fear and your anger and all of that stuff like you were owning it on the outside and he started melting. He did,

Jen: 39:41

he started relaxing. He started getting a lot more comfortable. He started relaxing. He was coming over to sniff me trying to get my attention. I'm just being a lot more calm. So he did start showing those signs of relaxation. I was able to actually be honest and tell the truth and be vulnerable with what was going on. Right. And that was a that was a cool thing. And it was one of my back was in the wall. And at some point when things were like, you know, starting to calm down, you were like, do you want me to

Lynn: 40:17

Yeah. And I, because I thought there may be some things leave? you needed to talk about, like I say, I had asked about the mommy button, and I wanted to give the two of you space. Yeah, since you know, they're, like, I, I've done a lot of work, but I didn't do it with my mother. Right. Right. And, and we all have work to do with our parents. I don't care how great your upbringing was, you have stuff and stuff. I was thinking, Okay, well, if she could throw me under the bus and tell them what a horrible angry, angry Mother, you know, this is an opportunity. Yeah.

Jen: 40:50

And I did I think I looked at you as like, Well, no, this has nothing to do with you.

Lynn: 40:53

And you did say that? I didn't say that.

Jen: 40:54

I did say that. in that mode. I was like, No, this has nothing to do with you. But I think what's interesting is why you're bringing it up and talk about conditioning. Right? Right. So so the only time you've ever seen me triggered like that is when you hit a mommy button. So like you are kind of conditioned that whenever I get triggered. It must be something to do with you.

Lynn: 41:15

Yeah, we've had we've had we've actually talked on our other podcasts before the my boss man Yeah, moments where we hit mommy buttons, and you stormed away. Because it's something I did where I was like, What?

Jen: 41:26

Yeah, yeah. And so like, I think I think that's a perfect case of of the conditioning of going, Oh, I'm see my daughter like that. The only time I've ever seen my daughter like this is when she's triggered with something with me. Oh, it must be about me.

Lynn: 41:40

Yeah. And, and fair enough, but what was interesting is when you started harmonizing? Yeah. And and the horse started relaxing, we kind of had a shift. And so you said something really profound. You said, You're asking me to give the horse what I need.

Jen: 42:01

Yeah.

Lynn: 42:02

And I'm not even exactly sure what transpired. But what I recognized is, Lynn walked you out of that space. Yes, she did, in a different way than you walk out when you typically recover from a trigger, which is, I'm going to survive this and go home and get on Netflix, and binge watch and maybe have some ice cream and then go to bed. Yeah. And that that pattern, which we all have, of whatever our version of that is, reinforces us doing the same things in our lives over and over again. So whatever triggers is just get stronger and stronger and stronger, because we comfort ourselves by doing the same old thing. But something different happens, she walked you out of it. And so describe that and what it felt like to be walked out to show how that vulnerability that you were in and that emotion that you were in, and then turning and facing your fears as opposed to like running away from them.

Jen: 43:01

Right. What happened? Well, it was so you know, I'm sitting here kind of laughing in my mind. Because I think for the we continue to groom the horse, and she was kind of directing me like, she was asking me Do you feel comfortable doing this? Do you trust me? Yeah, can you do this? and It was interesting, because I think for the rest of the time, I was because I was already like kind of triggered and crying. I think the whole rest of the time I spent grooming that horse in tears, but it was a different tear then the angry but that like the the angry tears, right? It was I am going to allow myself to trust this person and be vulnerable, and continue to connect with the horse ask for what I needed. And she would ask me, you know, again, do you feel comfortable doing this and so she would walk me around the horse, which when I actually told her how afraid I was to walk behind horses and wear this but like that button of fear was coming up for me before that I wasn't dealing with I was actually able to deal with that button. I was actually able to not be afraid anymore now is in tears the whole time. But it started becoming more of a gratitude tear.

Lynn: 44:26

I connected that's it. Yeah.

Jen: 44:29

an accomplishment. Yeah. And and I felt like an accomplished little kid as opposed to this scolded little kid in that moment. right you know of going wow, look at me. I'm doing something that I'm terrified. Yeah.

Lynn: 44:44

And you did. I don't remember her you walking. Because the only way you were gonna get him off the wall was to walk behind him. And she said, can you trust me to trust my horse? I'm telling you if you stand right there, he will not kick you. Yeah, she also knows how to read a horse. It's gearing up to kick. Yeah. You were also just from a physics standpoint, you were standing right next to his butt. Yeah, even if he can't does kick you he didn't have any leverage. Yeah, the most dangerous place is right at the edge of the kicking zone. Yeah, for the most leverage.

Jen: 45:14

And she explained that she showed me that which no one has really ever showed me the whole leverage point. I just, you know, I felt like the closer I was, the harder the kick was gonna be, right? So but she told me kind of, she explained to me, you know, how the horse has two different brains and how he's looking? Like you can tell he knows exactly where you're at. As long as he knows exactly where you're at, then like, he's gonna be okay. It's when we surprise them.

Lynn: 45:41

Yeah, you know, or, you know, especially a horse in that stage of his Yeah, I mean, he was not a little baby horse. Right, you know, lashing out out of Yeah, fear and so forth. So, that moment when you walked behind him actually walked behind him. Yeah. was powerful.

Jen: 45:58

So sorry, she just hit the mic. It's okay. As the sound

Lynn: 46:03

is my hand because I'm trying to remember not to talk with my hands. But it's hard. Yeah. So that, like, I could see the feeling of accomplishment. It's like the endorphin rush across your face. Yes. You really, truly overcame a fear when it was it was almost like I could watch your brain rewiring.

Jen: 46:23

And I think like, really, the tears that kept coming even after all of that was a whole lot more of me working through a lot of pent up fear that I've had my whole life and not just with horses. Mm hmm. But that fear of really showing and trusting someone else, that fear of allowing someone to see what I was really going through because I you know, I don't it's not that I don't cry in front of people, but it's like, come on, like, who really likes to cry in front of people makes you feel weak? Yeah. You know, and that's a lot of what like Brenee brown talks about and stuff in in in her book is, is the difference between weakness and vulnerability. But what I knew in that moment was I was showing vulnerability. And I wasn't showing a weakness. And I kept I just stayed with it for like, the first time in my life. I just stayed with that and allowed myself to experience that. And I think I cried the whole rest of the day.

Lynn: 47:24

Actually, I don't know, I think there was some pretty glowing face. There was going faces. But you but you were you were open. Yeah. Right. And so then, this is where things got pretty amazing. Yeah. Because you really, basically the horse eventually just was putty in your hands. Like he Yeah, so relaxed. Because you were so transparent. And you were congruent. Yeah. And so there's like this another one of the rules that we learn about horses is don't show them your fear. Yeah. And yet here, you were, frankly, showing him your fear. But in a way that wasn't intimidating. Right? And right. What ended up for me being sort of powerful was that it was your congruence that brought him around, not you're trying to hide your fear you, you had already seen the result of trying to hide your fear. It wasn't working, it doesn't work. And I remember, you know, back in all my corporate days, and, and even still, like, it's almost like, we all have radar for people who are saying one thing, but really meeting another.

Jen: 48:32

Yeah, man bosses do that. It will, like send people right to the edge. It's like if you're saying one thing, but we can sense you really are gaining something else, we have a problem.

Lynn: 48:43

We have a huge problem. And, and so just watching that, to me was profound, because it was like it really showed me how much it is and how much it means for us to be impeccable with our Word. Yeah, absolutely. And so then what happened? So you get the horse melted? And then what did Lynn say?

Jen: 49:02

So you want to get on the horse?

Lynn: 49:04

And I was like, surely not, right?

Jen: 49:07

Yeah, surely not. But, um, you know, I felt like in that moment, because not only did I have a stronger, like, trust myself and trust the horse I also had, when she asked me that, I knew because I had built trust with her at that point, that if she was asking me, it was because she felt like I could, even if I couldn't feel like I could, but because I had the trust with her at that point, because I didn't get kicked with the horse because she had built that. I was like, well, she must feel like this is an okay thing to do. Yeah, and I don't want to do myself a disservice by I just want to see this thing all the way through. You know, I at this, that's where I was going was like at that point. Now. I will A lot more interested in in seeing like it all the way until we were done until we were actually really done because I didn't want to dis I didn't want to disconnect. I didn't want to be like, Okay, I'm good for the day, and really still be in that space of disconnecting, because I've had enough, or, you know, those were enough lessons for the day. I'm good. I don't need it. I don't need to push my luck.

Lynn: 50:26

Right, which is the logic that I've probably even taught you to do is like, I think good, let's just leave well enough alone, let's

Jen: 50:32

just leave well enough alone. And yeah, and but that's, you know, it was like, you know, I think I just want to go tears and all, and I think there was still a couple of times, even while I was on the horse, which I'll probably didn't even see that I would like break out in tears. Um, you know, just because I was open and vulnerable and emotional and going, I can't believe what's going on. But I did get on that horse that day. We didn't go out on the trail.

Lynn: 51:03

Well, but you know what, that's not unusual. Yeah, we went up to the arena. Yeah, we went up to the arena you actually, not only did you get back up on that horse, but you actually trotted him around a little bit,

Jen: 51:13

I did, she really wanted to end with some trotting and being able to stop and connect, cuz that's how you really start really, really connecting is you being their leader, you showing them what you want, getting them to trot getting them to stop getting them to walk, turn all of those things. Like that's how you really, you're, you're really, really connected and you build trust. And, and, you know, the whole the whole thing was really, I mean, it was just I couldn't explain it because it was definitely a first time that I felt like I had stuck with the vulnerability piece of it and not cut myself short.

Lynn: 52:03

So tell me how you felt about yourself that day. And since because of lead walking yourself through that fire,

Jen: 52:15

there has definitely been a lot more I guess, confidence. And just freedom. I think I like yes, the confidence but more like, it's been more of like the freedom

Lynn: 52:30

to say more what does freedom means.

Jen: 52:32

So I, I think I have unconsciously put myself in a box in like a little prison of my own mind fucks basically, when I dissociate, because I do it a lot. And I don't even realize I do it. Um, whenever I get uncomfortable, which is quite often. I that's, that's my go to, and I I have spent a lot of time cutting myself short and disconnecting and not allowing people to really see me. And because people couldn't really ever see me and really ever get to know me like not like really know me and know what I was feeling. And then, like, how could anyone ever really like me? They don't ever really know me? How could anyone ever love me? They don't really ever know me? You know? So. So I think in that moment it was there was a freedom to it. Because I had broken through almost like my mind prison that I have created over the years.

Lynn: 53:44

Like your own personal set armor?

Jen: 53:46

Yeah, yeah. And I don't even think that I realized until I was out of it. Mm hmm. That I was in it. Yeah. And I was like, wow. And in the reason why it's a lot more freedom is this like, so I can show someone? My emotional side, my vulnerable side. And I didn't die.

Lynn: 54:11

Which is precisely what you're trying to teach the horse right? When right when you put the saddle on his back and his eyes go into zombie mode or he you know, he thinks he's about to die. I mean, after all, you're putting on an animal you've killed on his back. Yeah, you know, a dead animal on his back and he didn't die. He didn't die. Yeah, it's like how many moments do we even not realize day to day living? That we're in that space? And we don't give ourselves credit to say well I did something and I didn't die. Yeah, instead we just kind of stay behind the armor and go ahead armor works pretty well again, and we don't even think of it that directly we don't even realize we have armor.

Jen: 54:46

Right? Yeah. And it was i think i think that freedom to actually really embrace my own emotions and not disconnect from them and like see them all the way through and not not do what I normally do which is see them Almost all the way through and then go to bed.

Lynn: 55:04

No, you actually like you didn't just leave well enough alone, like you actually created a true completion. Yeah. And that's that's been, you know, for me my experience. That's why I keep going back. Yeah, almost every single time I go, whether I'm going to ride for a riding lesson or I go work with Bruce Anderson and we've had on this podcast before and Camden and do round pen work or getting on the

Jen: 55:27

last one definitely had issues with I know.

Lynn: 55:31

So yeah, because Bruce kind of hit the buttons as well. And he I mean his whole thing is to like provoke, provoke, provoke he's really good at it to walk you but but Amazing love what happens on the other side once you walk yourself through this fire because there is a like, I think there's a neurological change happening. I have been listening to a guy named Dr. Andrew Huberman on a lot of different podcasts. And he's been describing this whole process of neuroplasticity and how adults create learning. And it starts with the neuro chemicals of adrenaline which believe me when you've got a horse dancing around, you had adrenaline going through your system, and then it's the adrenaline dopamine acetylcholine like pathway that creates the dopamine is the reward molecule that says I did it. Yeah. But you only get that if you do it. Yeah, right. And you don't get the adrenaline like you don't get it if you go binge watch Netflix, like if you write if you cope. Yeah, you can deal with your adrenaline by coping Are you gonna deal with your adrenaline by turning in, Right, and I don't think we turn in naturally and on our own. That's why I keep finding people who will actually encourage me to do it.

Jen: 56:43

Yeah. That Yeah, and you know, I have is interesting because and I don't think I just like I really picked up on it until just this moment, but ever since then. And it's not that I don't watch plenty of you know, Netflix throughout the day and stuff like that, or in the evenings. But I have noticed myself since then, being willing to not be as much into Netflix because I use that a lot like I used since I was a kid TV has been like a big coping thing for me.

Lynn: 57:13

I mean, what was a coping thing for your mother? Because you because youhave a brain this thing here, Janet, watch TV, the single mom, right?

Jen: 57:21

I'm just like trying the busy single mom, you know, doing the best that she can

Lynn: 57:27

we didn't have our iPads back then. All we had was Nickelodeon darlin,

Jen: 57:31

and then it worked. It was great. Um, and of course I was, I was an only child too. So so the TV really became my, my coping strategy. And, and I have often thought of, like me, and, like, I kind of wished that I could just turn Netflix or I mean, I say Netflix, but really all the streaming services off cable, you know, just really sit with myself. And it's like, oh, my God, I could never do that. But I have noticed that since that day, I have been a lot more inclined to do other things. And other than, because I haven't really felt the need to cope with anything. I've been very comfortable doing a lot more journal writing, that I've been very comfortable with really paying attention to. And, you know, I feel like I've had a lot more energy. You know, it just I don't even know, I feel like a weight has been lifted. I don't even know that I knew was there. One, you know, but but just because it's like, I don't feel like I need to sit down and watch Netflix. I feel like I have a whole lot more things I could like more productive things I want to do.

Lynn: 58:35

Well, we've actually seen a difference in your coping. I yeah, I'm not using I mean, because there's still watch. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with watching TV, getting on your phone or doing whatever. It's just the context in which we use it and the purpose and if it's for coping, because we can't cope. You know, what I love about the work and what what I'm hearing that you learned is you you actually got instead of having to it's almost like instead of needing a life jacket, you were able to swim. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's like you have your you are able to swim on your own power. Yeah. Or some other analogy like that. In other words, you actually tap into your own inner resources rather than needing all the other tools. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that's really powerful.

Jen: 59:24

It was a really, it was a really unique thing. I don't know that if it was just, I don't know, like, if you went there, you know, to the listeners or whatever. You'd have the exact same experience. But no, it would be something different. Yeah. It would be something there would be an experience.

Lynn: 59:43

Yeah. Well, I really believe that every one of us has our own journey that we have to do. And, you know, it's made me not want to be very prescriptive, like when I'm working with coaching clients or when I'm writing my book, it's it's more like that Giving people exercises to do to experiment with themselves to find their own ways. But, you know, the whole point is how do we break the unconscious not even aware of habits that we have to cope with life? Or to have our armor to be locked or whatever? And how do we break through that to become sort of more more personally strong? We have to find our own way. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So nobody's gonna have the same experience. Yeah. And yet, and yet, there's some kind of order to the whole thing, too, right. Which is, I don't think we get out of it. Both ways are uncomfortable. They're just uncomfortable in different ways. Yeah,

Jen: 1:00:39

it's definitely uncomfortable.

Lynn: 1:00:41

I mean, what you went through in the vulnerability, you had to stick with that to get back on that horse you literally, like, as I'm doing, you know, as I have. You know, that's, that's the old saying, you got to get yourself up and get back on that, on that horse. And I think there's probably so much more to that than we than I ever knew. Yeah, myself. So and

Jen: 1:01:04

I'm still kind of, you know, reflecting on all of it, because that was a big powerful moment. There was a lot of lessons. I don't even know if I've uncovered all of the lessons. But that day, right, you know, showed me because we're only like a week. It was not even a week ago, it was Thursday. It was Yeah, we could go Thursday. Yeah, recording this on Monday. So

Lynn: 1:01:26

it's pretty fresh, still pretty

Jen: 1:01:27

fresh. Yeah. So there's still a lot to kind of uncover as as how does it transpire in, you know, the next time I need to cope? Yeah. Or I find myself wanting to cope, you know,

Lynn: 1:01:38

and, and it's interesting, because I really, you know, and working with Bruce, where he talked about, it's not the horse, but the pressure created by the horse. And, again, if you want to hear a lot more about this, go back to the we've done a couple of podcasts together. And there's a lot on that idea. But in a way, I think we all have a pressure threshold. Yeah, we have a place at which the pressure is so high, whether it's created by horse, whether it's created by another person, whether it's created by our own expectations, we reach a point at which we can no longer access our skills. Yeah. And we get either emotional or we shut down or are, you know, like, I think about myself with heights. You know, I always say the best way to tell a pressure threshold, or what I mean by skills is I can walk a 12 foot beam on the ground, but you make it 10 feet high. And my we're past my pressure threshold. Yeah. And yet, there's people who can dance across that.

Jen: 1:02:32

Yeah, they don't care.

Lynn: 1:02:34

They can go, you know, there are construction workers that can do that hundreds of feet in the air and, and naughty, because their pressure threshold, especially for that activity is a lot higher. Yeah. And I think you reset your pressure threshold less.

Jen: 1:02:46

Yeah. And there's still plenty of more pressure thresholds. And I will, I will, I will meet I know that, you know, but but in terms of this, I do think that there was an increase, it's like, you know, weightlifting, yeah, I can start seeing some gains,

Lynn: 1:03:02

while also making me think of, you know, we had Peter barr on this podcast a couple of months ago. And Peter, you know, left his role at conserving Carolina, to go live a life of adventure, and to get himself out of sticky situations. Yeah. And the more I've done this, the more I you know, when I first went to the round pen with Bruce, I said, I'm never going again. And I keep going back, and I keep going every week to work with land riding horses. And what I've realized is it's really not about the horses, but it's about what I keep uncovering in myself. Yeah. And that there's always something new. You know, I had caught the horse that we were on Thursday, dozens and dozens of times, but I've never had that exact horses I had on Thursday, when we had the other horse in the barn. And you there and all the other excitement, so I was dealing with my own set of circumstances with him and getting to test you know, my own abilities. Yeah, so, but once I've started on that path, it's almost become a quest, because it's like, I keep shedding old layers of old beliefs and old rules and things like that. And I think of it as reaching for my tools instead of my rules to become more internally strong. So

Jen: 1:04:12

yeah, I think that i think that's accurate. I, I was also like, sitting here going and having to remind myself, I was just thinking about this. In the heat of the moment, before I even walked out of the barn. I was trying to calm myself down by reminding myself to be present with the horse and that I was telling myself that the horse is like, why is the horse not liking me? Oh, yeah, isn't that interesting? You know, like, but then having to like talk back and go Wait, this has nothing like the horse doesn't. It doesn't dislike or like I mean, they you know, they either trust you or they don't write and in five minutes from now, however, this horse is behaving it doesn't matter the past doesn't matter. That's right. You know, but but for me, you know as human beings, the past really comes up. And it came up a lot as we were working through that, but of course, you know, the horse didn't hold on to anything,

Lynn: 1:05:07

he let go of it instead, he was.

Jen: 1:05:10

Yeah, it was gone, everything was gone. And and I think that's the you know, the other thing, though, that I've talked a lot about lately, even like in my own stuff is presence, being present. And having to remember anything a lot about that day, has created that sense of like, let me be present right here right now not letting the past interfere with our present and not letting the future you know, concern us and stuff. And not that it's like a perfect thing. But it certainly is like, oh, like what you're saying you had a different horse on that day that you've caught. That's right, so many other times, but we we go into those expectations of Wait a second, why are you acting different? What did I do wrong?

Lynn: 1:05:56

Exactly. Why don't you like me, and and then wanting to not believe what I'm seeing in the horse. So rather than owning that I'm showing up differently, or this horse is not showing me any signs of trust and connection. Right, right that he's still on. He's still in zombie horse mode, which is not a great we can get on a zombie horse. Yeah, it's not a great idea. Because that means if you're on a zombie horse, that means that he's stalking his fear. Yeah. And you don't know what's going to come along. So that very afternoon, by the way, this will be this story is continuing to be told. But you know, three years ago, I had an accident. I went for the first time back to the first time to ride with my friend I was on a different horse. I was in the middle this time. But unlike the time that really nothing happened in yet I still got thrown while we were out on the trail. We had a deer jump in front of us. All the horses were fine. But I mean, he came out of nowhere and just like flashed in front of us. And then not five minutes later, the lead writer said Oh, guys, we have a situation and not something you really want to hear on the trail in which she stopped her horse that there were three of us. I stopped my horse. And we said What is that? Because snake on the trail? Well, horses don't like snakes. Horses do not like snakes and Bray animals remember? That's exactly right. And so she made the election to walk on because the snake wasn't moving. So we walked to the left a few feet three feet outside the snake. It was a big black snake. Yeah, my horse and he just the snake decided to move when my horse saw him. And horse, he did my horse jump completely sideways. That was all I mean, it was fine. And then we kept on going. But but it was much better than it would have been because that horse and I were connected. And I basically said to him, I see it and you're fine. It's okay. It is okay. I didn't pretend like it wasn't there. I said we're cool. And he within seconds the snake was gone. In his mind. He did not like I'm still hanging on to it. Because I'm telling the story obviously, right? That horse you couldn't even get him to tell you that story. If you could get in his brain, he's let it go. He's like, what do you what it was because the snake was there. And then it's gone. Yeah, doesn't exist. And so what we do with our human minds about telling stories, the horse doesn't like me, the horse is fine. When he's, you know, when he got all those kind of stories, I think it's really useful just to kind of remember what and that's one of the lessons they teach me is this is what presence really looks like. Yeah,

Jen: 1:08:28

yeah, absolutely. And animals don't really have any huge concepts. They're only conditioned. Right? And and in a sense, like, we can learn a lot from studying animals in that they don't have a past or future that they worry about. They're only conditioned responses in the moment. And the moment they're only in the moment. Yeah, I mean, like if someone if they're conditioned to be afraid of someone raises their hand, because they're used to getting beaten than someone raises their hand, they're going to get freaked out, you know, because that's a conditioned response that's in horses, and you can break all of those conditioning. So it's it's a lot to do with if animals can be broken of all their conditioning. It's like, we have to pay attention to our own conditioning. We really do. And yeah, and it's like, how are all of these conditions being set? Where are they coming from? Then how can we break break those

Lynn: 1:09:19

patterns and and actually reach for something different? Yeah. Right. And and I think that the other thing we have to recognize, this is something I've been thinking a lot about is most of the time, the first thought is probably going to be the old thought. Absolutely. And it's our conditioned response. But the minute we're aware of it, yeah. Which like, like you were like, I think what happened with you in the barn, and the minute we're aware of it, then we have a choice to do something different. Yeah. Now, the other thing that often can happen is we are aware of it. And then we beat ourselves up over not being able to do anything different or to continue to have the same thought rather than say, okay, there it is. That's why it always is this time. I'm going to read For my tools, I'm going to reach for my vulnerability or my allowing or my patience or whatever it might be that you need to reach for instead of my tools, which means Okay, I'm going to go disconnect, I'm going to go eat my ice cream, I'm going to go to bed early, I'm going to, you know, whatever rule I have haven't had in my life that teaches me how to cope. So yeah, this is, um, this has been really good. Yeah, sorry to hear about Jan, I really appreciate you coming on to talk through this. You know, I, when I look at horses, I really do feel like in a way they show us. I hate to use the more primitive part of our brain, but they do show us our, our own survival mode. Oh, yeah. And what I have really started recognizing in my own experience is as it relates to trust and connection is, if I don't have trust and connection with somebody, it's probably because they don't feel safe, or they could feel too safe, because it's also possible with horses for them to feel too safe, and they are not respectful. And then you have to draw some pretty strong boundaries.

Jen: 1:11:05

Absolutely.

Lynn: 1:11:06

And you know, that's your specialty. Is your unbreakable boundaries podcast. Yeah. And the work you do with parents who have their children that are in addiction, and, you know, a lot of times, it's I think it's just very useful to know how to set boundaries, and also how to create safety. And I think if you can walk those two lines, I think a lot in a lot of ways to get to trust and connection, I think, in a lot of ways, that's the epitome of your work. Yeah. So I have to believe that your experience is going to also bode well for your clients. You know, I Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And so I'm gonna say for everybody, if you haven't found Jen, on Apple podcasts or anywhere else, you get them the it's called the unbreakable boundaries podcast. She has been doing a series on early recovery, talking to people, because when you are a recovering addict, the the beginning of that recovery, and I recall yours over 13 years ago, it's not pretty and it's not mature. It's not right. It's not mature. Now, you've been making some important distinctions about the difference between abstinence and recovery, because a lot of times that gets confused. Yeah. And we won't dive into that here. Because you've got plenty of time for people who are interested in differences, you know, go to listen to her podcast.

Jen: 1:12:28

Yeah. Well, and I think it's really cool, like the early recovery series, because each person that has come on, we always start with the mindset of what it's like when someone's using and I think when we can really understand what's going on, you know, we can actually do better with our boundaries. I think that's really important. Like, the more facts that we have, the more understanding that we have, we can do those things called like, compassionate boundaries.

Lynn: 1:12:54

Well, it's interesting. I just had I just now made a connection. So can I share it with you? Yeah, what you do, compared to the story? Yeah. So what what's really cool working with Lynn, is she understands horse, as well as anybody I've ever seen. And she teaches you horse. Yeah, she says, This is what that means that horse is licking and chewing. Yeah, that horses lip is quivering. Those two things look very similar. They mean something very different. licking and chewing as a relaxed horse, quivering lip is a zombie horse. That horse is blinking or not blinking, His ears are either happy or not happy, you know, his body language, all of those things, she has thousands of distinctions about letting you into the world of the horse, so that then you can make choices that are appropriate for the circumstances. You do that for parents, with Yeah, with their children in addiction. So I've actually sat in on conversations where the parents as well, this is what I've seen happening, I think it means they're on their road to recovery. And you'll go well, actually, what that means is, let me tell you, what's going to happen next is you're going to get a phone call. And they're using again, or whatever. It's like you have thousands of distinctions about the world of addiction, that you sort of bring the parents into that world, so that then they can actually make the best choices for how to help their child come out of addiction.

Jen: 1:14:21

Yeah, well, the whole early recovery series actually literally started from that distinction, where I had, you know, a client that was talking about their kid that had just gotten out of rehab, and where this person thought that there was red flags. I was like, No, no, that's normal. Yeah. And then when there was the when they weren't concerned, and there was a quote, unquote, normal thing.

Lynn: 1:14:46

Yeah, exactly.

Jen: 1:14:48

No, no, wait, they're like they're thinking it's a good thing. It's like, No, no, this is not a good thing. This is a red flag, but what you were concerned with before was actually normal. Like that's where they need to be. So early recovery series, actually They got brought up from that very distinction of the red flags may not actually be red flags, right? You know, what you think are red flags, especially in recovery are actually normal and what is normal and what you want to see is actually the red flags.

Lynn: 1:15:15

So somebody to be able to, like show into that world. That's like one of the values that you bring as a recovering addict yourself, as somebody who's lived in the community for a very long time, and has learned how to read those signals and learn what they mean. Yeah, so anyway, for those of you who are listening that might have you know, a niece and nephew, a child a friend, and you know, they need help, there's a lot more drug addiction out there than there's ever been, because of the opioid crisis. It's so much easier to get caught in painkillers and, and things like that. But, but also, we live in a pretty dramatic world right now. And yeah, a lot of us I call it numbing and dumbing and I'm not saying anybody's dumb, but it's like you're dumbing down your nerves you're dumbing down the system to make it easier to handle and so if you know somebody that's caught an addiction and you want to help them, you know, Jan's got just a world of resources out there to listen to and read, she's got a book. So say, say,

Jen: 1:16:14

dear parents, strategies to help your loved one through addiction, so it's almost like a letter to the parents. It is it's it's really good. It's very raw. It's very, you know, real. You know, it can, it's either gonna hit you really hard, or it's gonna hit you right where it needs to be. You know it but but I think in this world, we just don't have, I can't afford to beat around the bush. And I think a lot of people have a hard time with that. But we can't afford to beat around the bush when it comes to this topic. Because, you know, the more we beat around the bush, the the higher the risk is of someone dying, and life and death.

Lynn: 1:16:55

This is life and death. In fact, I'm actually we're recording this in your office. Yeah. My left is, um,

Jen: 1:17:02

yeah, It's my wall of rememberance

Lynn: 1:17:06

So Jen has a wall of remembrance that has some 20 some odd pictures of people that you've lost many of them

Jen: 1:17:15

I would say at about 80% of those are direct overdoses. And then like, you know, a couple other requests. I got my grandparents.

Lynn: 1:17:23

My parents are there. Yes. When I sat down, I know. I've been in here since my dad's pictures.

Jen: 1:17:31

So I didn't even think about that.

Lynn: 1:17:33

Um, it's okay. I'm managing. But yeah,

Jen: 1:17:36

like 80% of them are direct. Some of them you know, were indirect causes so like, either they you know, hepatitis suicide. Yeah. Something good. Something. Yes. Something indirect.

Lynn: 1:17:49

But Oh, she has a quote up there that I'm going to read as we close and it says, I'm sorry, this world could not keep you safe. May your journey home be a soft and peaceful one. Rest in peace?

Jen: 1:18:00

That was a poem by would Rupi Karr? I don't know. I was flipping through her book. And I came across and it was like, Oh, my God. Yes. An amazing

Lynn: 1:18:12

tomato. Because poem. Yeah, you know, it's kind of we've kind of come full circle, because the whole point of you not getting on the horse, when we started this story was one standard is the horse has to feel safe. Yeah, if you're going to get on his back. And if you actually really like step away and look at this thing that we see in movies, we see it all the time. For most of human history, we've been riding horses. This is an animal that chooses to allow us to ride on him chooses to allow carry us Yes, along. And, you know, when I think about safety in the workplace, and I'm not talking about enough, falling on the floor safety or wearing a hardhat safety, but I'm talking about when we are with people at work, and we are asking them to bring our companies along. Yeah. I think we at the very least owe them safety. And the ways people can belittle the ways people can get all muddy, and I'm talking about myself as much as anybody because I lead through fear and intimidation, a lot of my career. This is your job, you should do this. Right. And that's what makes people feel real safe, doesn't it? You know, I think it's time for us to start talking about what it really means to have trust and connection with each other and you're safe.

Jen: 1:19:31

Well, and that's, you know, in the addiction world, that's what we're looking for trust and connection. Yeah. And that's what's gonna save us ultimately from from it is trust and connection because it Yes, there's a chemical piece. But it's really the reason for the chemicals, which is the need trust and connection. We started not based out of a chemical need that came with the use of the drugs of looking for a trusting and connection, right. And you can hear That pattern show up in that early recovery series was almost everyone I interview. Wow. Yeah.

Lynn: 1:20:06

So we're kind of ending on a heavy note. But if you stuck with this this long thank you for, for listening, and we've given you some information on Can you give all the social details for people to find you out in the social world?

Jen: 1:20:20

Yeah, I think I think the best place, the easiest and one place I'll send you that can link you to anything else is just my website. It's Maneelyconsulting.com Maneely. spelled ma n e e l y consulting.com. And then you can find out anything you need to know from there.

Lynn: 1:20:38

Yeah. All it'll take you all the rest of your files and your buttons and all that plus your blog.

Jen: 1:20:43

Oh, yeah. My blog. Yeah,

Lynn: 1:20:44

thank you for telling this story. And helping, helping may not be the only one who's talking about horses.

Jen: 1:20:51

So welcome. I've enjoyed it.

Lynn: 1:20:52

All right. Thanks, Jen. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.