#3 Bruce Anderson: Let Pressure Teach You to Become Who You Were Born To Be

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Lynn

Intro:

Hello Lynn Carnes here, and welcome back to creative spirits unleashed podcast about balance and especially balance under pressure. Today's guest, Bruce Anderson, he absolutely epitomizes balance, but probably not in the ways that you first think of. Bruce has developed a method for fundamentally changing your relationship with pressure and he uses horses to do it. Now, I've worked with horses in the leadership realm before, so when I first worked with him I thought I knew what to expect, but man, was I wrong? I will say this, working with Bruce did put me under a lot of pressure. In fact, you're going to hear some of that in this conversation to me. His methods were as mysterious as they were maddening, but I will say this, they did work and they continue to work for me. So in this conversation we're going to pull back the curtain a little bit and you're going to get to see that Bruce has a huge mission in life.

He wants all of us to be that true person we were born to be. He calls it "the you". He thinks that's what will save our planet. And he believes horses are very best teachers to get us there. Now who is Bruce Anderson and what does he know about horses? Well, he grew up and Trinidad and he lived on a cocoa and coffee estate where he began his relationship with horses and learned arrive there many years ago. He represented his country in the national show jumping team and he also moved to breeding farms at his home and in the UK and also in the United States. So he knows a lot about horses. He also even worked with race horses in Florida. Eventually he moved to the Hunter and jumper show circuit and now lives in Camden, South Carolina. And that's how I met him, was through somebody here in the Tryon area who had him come work with her and her horses.

But he also said we work with corporate people and we can absolutely make a difference in your ability to not only perform well under pressure, which as we all know in the corporate world, we're under pressure all the time, but also how to become more of who we really are. And that is truly a balancing act. So I look forward to hearing what you have to say about this conversation. There was so much to learn as always and if you enjoy it please, it would help me a ton if you give it a rating and also subscribe to the podcast so others can find it too. Thanks and really enjoy this conversation with Bruce Anderson.

Bruce, welcome to the podcast.

Bruce Thanks Lynn. Welcome to our porch.

Lynn We have just for the sake of the people who are listening, we are sitting, it's mid Nove..., Almost late November. It's a gorgeous sunny day. We are surrounded by horses and chickens and a dog with all the guidance that says when you do recordings like this, watch out for background noise. We just are going to have some background noise. We're going to have some chickens, people, it's going to be okay. The horses are far enough away that all we have to worry about is, is Lynn going to go off in Lala land wishing she was down there with the horses. Nothing against you. But I do love that. I do. I hope we get into a lot of talk about horses and mistakes with horses and my passion for horses. But here we are and I just want to welcome you and, and I want to start, I want to start in the middle about the middle. So you do an exercise with your clients about finding the middle of the round pen.

Bruce Yeah, it's, it's sort of interesting. The quote unquote work that I do, I guess we sort of fell onto it. We didn't consciously thought this journey and in this journey it sort of has evolved and continues to evolve and certain exercises that have come to pass, I gained more and more knowledge at certain points of the journey for whatever reason. And one of the exercises, which is kind of the first exercise that I do in the round pen where the person on the horse is to have the person find the middle. And I always say that the round pen is actually not the round pen, but a metaphor of your life, a second of your life. So in doing that exercise, if you think about it, it's almost like living a whole lifetime and not exercise.

Lynn: Yes, it is. Cause I've done and it feels like a freakin lifetime

Bruce: And it's also in doing the exercise keyword, there's "In", which is one of the words that has evolved from this work. And doing the exercise as you're learning how to be in the moment. So you're living on lifetime and you're learning to be in the moment. And the horse is no longer a horse, but a metaphor of significant other. Your kids, coworkers yourself, life and death. So it's not the horse, but the pressure created by the horse and also the pressure created by this round pen. It's amazing when people walk into that round pen how everything changes for them. And even though you would have somebody do the exercise when you yourself go in, it's amazing how a lot of people can't do what they had set out to do. So this first exercise is to find the middle. And I would give them a rock and, say to them, go find the middle of the round pen. And I'm one of the first things they realize is that the round pen and is actually not round, which is great because, and it not being round, it's sort of a metaphor of our life. You know, the world we live in, it's not round. In other words, if everything was perfect, we wouldn't be alive. Because my, how should I say, my definition of perfection is, is to meet death. Which it's not a bad thing, but that is the most perfect thing. Or one of the most perfect things that I can think of at this part of the journey. So the exercises go find the middle. And the other day I was working with this young man, we were doing this exercise, finding the middle, and it's a two part to this exercise. So the person would go in, place the rock on the ground and I would say something like, how do you know you're in the middle? And they usually would say, well, I think it's a middle, but they're not really sure. And then I would ask them, how did you find the middle? And a lot of them, it's amazing how they don't quite know how they found it. So when I start pushing it, usually it breaks down to what I look at four points, which is sort of like North, South, East and West. And then what I would do at this point is give them four flats and let's say they're blue flags. And I would say to them, okay, place the blue flags where those four points were that you had looked at to find the middle. And they go off and they do that. And then what I have them do is, okay, forget about this first exercise. Let's move onto the second exercise. In the second exercise, we're still working on finding the middle, but I do not want you to focus on finding the middle. Because when you did the first exercise, the first thing you did was you walk to where you perceive the middle was and then you started working on finding the middle. The second exercise, which is still under the heading of finding the middle, I sort of show you not to worry about the middle. I asked what are the steps that you have to find to find the middle? Or have to take to find the middle. And the first thing is to find the first point. So we would take one of those blue flags and we place an orange flag. So I've now given you four orange flags. So you put an orange flag right next to one of the blue flags, let's say for argument's sake on the North side. So then the next thing that one needs to do is cut the round pen in half. And so what I would say to people is let's say for example that the round pen area is 12 so if you cut it in half, what are you going to have? Well, it's sort of interesting how most people would say something like, well, I'll have six. And what they're saying is that one half would be six and the other half would be six and there goes the rooster.

Lynn Yeah, he's making your point.

Bruce So, so I'm not going to, unless you want me to get into story of when they just say six and not six and six.  So we'll just leave that for now because that takes us down another little root. What we'll move on to is basically they want to cut the round pen in half. So what they then do is

Lynn And can I interrupt for a minute because The interesting thing right away is what comes to me. I'm hearing that rooster, he wants to be heard. He thinks it's morning, right? It's mid day. It's not sunrise, isn’t that fun? Because we're recording.

Bruce What's going through your mind right now with the roosters doing that?

Lynn This is a great example of our experience with the round pen because I feel like I, I kind of am laughing at it and to the point where he like, it's almost like he's trying to be as noisy as he can. I've never heard him this loud

Bruce and then him doing that. What is it doing to you?

Lynn So My negative pole. Is going up

Bruce It’s kind of cool because, but then in the past you'd get pissed off because you're trying to have this perfect, you know podcast, you know you're like getting ignored under the same time. Do you feel yourself like no, don't do that.

Bruce Do you see yourself bringing yourself back and,

Lynn Yes, and because of the work we've done, like the negative pole goes up and it's like there is really not much we can do other than stop. We have to go. I don't even want to try to talk. You think about catching a rooster. It's this is our lives right here.

Bruce Do you want to give a little definition of the negative poles so that people can understand?

Lynn Let me explain it because that's actually why I was interrupting is I wanted to say the point of the middle, the point of

Bruce why did you interrupt?

Lynn Because I've felt because

Bruce you're negative pole went up

Lynn and I was putting myself actually I thought

Bruce So it’s not about telling the story of finding the middle. It's capturing this moment

Lynn Yes and here we are alive and in the work because it took me at least five or six times of either working with you or bringing clients to work with you to really understand. We were finding the middle, which was known in my head, and I won't use the F word, but it was F***ing I was very annoying. It felt like an impediment to doing what I really wanted to do, which was do whatever I could do with the horse. And what I have come to understand is what we're doing is we're working on our internal guiding system, which is warped because of our upbringing

Bruce So are you saying that what you realize is we're actually not doing anything with the horse in doing with the horse, we're actually working on ourself as a byproduct through the horse.

Lynn That’s Exactly right. And what I've come to realize in terms of the negative and positive pole, which is the way the internal guidance system gets activated, it's like a battery with a positive and negative, and you can feel it charge through your body. And from birth, we've been feeling that. However, we didn't learn how to read it. and it often went off when a parent was scolding us, telling us, stay out of the hot stove. Don't run in front of the car. You've made a bad grade, you've hit your sister and all the things that our conditioning of life has come kind of piled on us to say there's something wrong with me. So instead of my internal guidance system going, there's something for me to pay attention to learn from handle problem to solve. This is my best gift from God is this system. Instead it has become the weapon of mass destruction against myself.

Bruce Okay, so I'm sitting here and you saying that you have no idea how hard it was for me to keep quiet and let you finish your, your piece because, and you saying what you were saying you, you sort of brought to life a thought in my head, which doesn't belong to me. It belongs to you because you evoked it by what you were saying or should I say the pressure created by what you were saying. And this is a continuation to what you just said. If I'm not mistaken, what you're saying is when our negative pole goes up, instead of it being a guidance system, it blocks us from reaching our full potential because at that moment we perceive using our language, we're making a mistake.  Now this is where this comes into play. It goes right back to nature and to me how nature has been designed for the young when they're born in nature's world as opposed to people's world. When the young is born, the parents train the young over and over again, certain behaviors for them to be able to survive. When things start happening, when things out of control, they have this what I guess we call the subconscious, that mechanism that we have in us to allow us to acquire this information, to condition our subconscious in time of need. It's kind of like that emergency sort of shoot to save yourself. I believe that people have now taken that on and conditioning us to survive in people's world. They have taken that, I don't know what word you'd use that, that not ability that we have naturally and twisted it to where we are told at the beginning that we need to be perfect to survive and survival is our main instinct. And if we aren't perfect, it's a mistake

Lynn: and it's death,

Bruce: it's a mistake. But then we have to beat ourselves over the head with a two by four. So we have in a sense being subconsciously conditioned with our muscle memory that to survive we need to be perfect. Otherwise we need to beat ourselves up with a two by four. So whenever we make a mistake, without even realizing it, we automatically beat ourselves up. Otherwise we won't survive. And because of that conditioning, we are not necessarily reaching our full potential. And it goes back to my definition of perfection, which is death. So in a sense we are conditioned ourselves to slowly kill ourselves. So even with that said, if you put that to the side, and let's just go with trying to be perfect, well to be perfect, you have to be able to do a particular task. The problem is we weren't given three pieces. We have them, but we weren't consciously taught them. And just the opposite, we were sort of almost set up not to acquire this knowledge. And these three pieces are what I call the mental tools. So if you think about it, any tasks that we have to do before you actually can do a task, you have to be proficient at your mental tools. So for example, a stupid example could be like opening the top of a water bottle. You know, if you stop and think about it, I first have to problem solve timing, listening, hearing, discipline, work ethic. If I am, if I'm not proficient at any of these things, it's not the opening of the bottle, but the pressure created by the opening of the bottle. If our mental tools on equal or greater than that pressure, we're not going to get it done. And then, so that's one piece. The other piece is what I call the negative positive pole, right? When we don't get it done right away because of our false conditioning, we perceive we're making a mistake,

Lynn: That feeling that internal guidance system kicks off and it's told us for many years, there's something wrong with me and I do whatever I do when something's wrong

Bruce passed on from generation to generation. So that's the second that we're missing that we interpret that as making a mistake. And of course that little voice in our head is like going crazy now and just like making us nuts. And the third piece is to me, we have a picture which is to open the bottle of water, but we also perceive that we know what to do, when to do and how to do. And this to me is possibly developed from school because we're sort of almost made to believe that we know what to do and how to do. And if we don't do it, okay, that's what's going to happen. The consequences, two by four, you know, I don't know about where you grew up, but all the teachers in my school, in the Caribbean, Trinidad, where I grew up all had a stick. And when you messed up, you found out the hard way. You messed up, even though you maybe didn't intentionally to mess up. That's what happened. And so of course now you're, you're, you're, you're conditioned again. You must have memory to believe that you know what to do and how to do so because of these three things that are missing. How can we possibly be perfect because we weren't given these three things and because of the lack of these three things and how they were tainted, actually the odds of us getting it perfect, are slim to none.

So with all of that said, one, forget about perfection. Work on proficiency because if you're working on perfection, if you think about it, if you're a perfect, well, there's no reason to survive anymore because there's nothing to survive for because you are perfect.

Lynn: So I D this has just brought up a question for me that I don't think we've ever talked about.  because what I see when people are fighting, fighting for striving for whatever they're doing for perfection, there's a person in their head I've come to also see, I sometimes call it the sports mom bitch, but I've also been known to call it the sanctioner And it's this part, and sometimes it's their boss. It is literally their boss saying this has to be perfect. And in corporate language we call it flawless execution. But what I just thought of about this whole quest for perfection, and sometimes it comes from parents, parents who demand that their kids show up a certain way. The parents that spend $500,000 to put their kid in a school that they probably don't even want to be in. So there'll be perfect in a certain way. All of all of what I'm leading up to is, is a, is that a way for them to gain power over us? Because there's no way to be perfect. So I know you'll always fail, but I can make you always be miserable. And the gap between who you are and what my demands for your perfection art and is that not one of the, the sort of people's world illnesses that we've created?

Bruce So I love what you just came up with because you have know evoked another piece. So here we go. If you go to the end of the spectrum of people's world, if you think about a philosophy or the philosophy that is put on us, it basically boils down to to be successful, which is usually defined by money, you need to take something that is less and use it to enrich yourself, which is people's world's way of thinking. With that said, going back to what you are saying and going back to what I was talking about, the three missing pieces and survival perfection. Two by four mistake, when you stop and think about it, because of the conditioning done to us, as you rightfully said, we do not succeed in whatever it is you're doing to the levels in which we are expected and we put on ourselves. So therefore when you finally get to the end, and it's not to the levels of expectation by those in power, you feel terrible. So therefore you don't get a natural, if I'm not mistaken, it will be an endorphin kick.  Or that good feeling that you get. Which if you stop and think about it, to me, literally the physical body has to have that. That's the thing that keeps the body going and moving forward and wanting to move forward and not sort of collapse. Does that make sense to you? So, so it's kind of like we need to have that to literally survive.

Lynn It's like an essential chemical of law.

Bruce: Absolutely. Without it, it's, it's like the body just starts deteriorating and then you go into, I guess depression

Lynn and life is not worth living when you're not getting those endorphin kicks.

Bruce And then obviously what's going to happen is you're going to acquire perfection. I eat death, what I call premature perfection, which is suicide. So therefore the point being is this because of the conditioning done to us, we basically aren't getting that natural fix,

Lynn Because the power people in power are saying, we're going to give you

well not only that, money as a boss, et cetera, et cetera. The point being is they then produce things, but I call the hat, you know, that comes in all different shapes and sizes and colors and blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Lynn

Mercedes yada. Yeah. Special pants. Good. My, in my case, cowboy boots

Bruce and one of those things are going to give you that fixed falsely. Yeah, it doesn't last very long.

Lynn And they don't want it to have a ossuary long. No. So tell me why. They don't want it to last very long

Bruce because they want more money and the story. So basically you are the less, so they're using you to enrich themselves. You understand slowly you're dying because they kind of empower you because then they empower you. Then you won't need the indoor from case because you'll start to get it naturally. So they keep you sort of in this, what's the word I'm looking for and this environment that isn't beneficial to your wellbeing but just give you enough or you have enough within you through nature to keep succeeding every now and then to get it fixed, but not enough because of the environment that you live in. So you're slowly painting other people around you with what I call tyrant  mindset,

Lynn which I actually don't believe most people actually even realize they're doing because it's what they were taught. I don't think very many people get up in the morning and say, I'm going to hold Lynn down.

Bruce Okay, but here's my question to you. Let's say they do realize to a certain extent, but why would they not say anything about it? Because if they were to say something about it, they then had to admit that they are making a mistake and they cannot do that because of the trauma and the conditioning that was done to them. R So they're not going to say anything. A good example of that is a “me too “movement. Yes. I mean look at what happened. So the me too move up went from all of these people who were under reactors and now they're swung to the other end to whether overreacters. But both situations are both tyrant where you're overreacting or underreacting, you're not doing the picture. So if you suck, if you were, think about it, if somebody actually did create this thing called tyrant mindset, they're geniuses because you could either overreact to underreact but you're still not going to acquire the knowledge that you need to acquire.  Do you understand? And even when you read these books and you get this knowledge, you know the problem that happens there is if your mental tools on equal to the pressure of the situation, because we keep thinking, well, it's when that guy hit me where the trauma happened. Well it's actually not where the guy hit you, but the pressure created by that, which every day you're encountering pressure. So everyday you're sort of reliving your past, which you haven't healed. So therefore you're not going to move forward with your life because you're missing all these pieces. So you're going to be stuck in this place and you know you're going to be stuck, but you can't say anything because then you have to admit that you're making a and you don't know.

Lynn Well, and I've actually had it be so that people, I've had very competent people come. I had a guy come up to me after a workshop and he talked about his fear of failure and he, he was a successful army guy. He'd done very well and he was debilitated by his fear of failure and his way of showing it was he got very antagonistic and aggressive with people. So he couldn't be a team member because when they started disagreeing with him, he would beat em up. Not physically, but you know as a bully almost.

Bruce So you actually said it, and I don't know if you realize what you said, which is the cause of him being so committed to tyrant.  By overreacting. Underreacting what was his profession?

Lynn He was in the military where they really,

 Bruce did he see battle?

Lynn I believe he did. I believe he,

Bruce: and what was it that he saw when he saw battling who knew death pressure? Do you understand an overwhelming amount of pressure, right? So which puts even more pressure on him not to make a mistake. So when he goes out into the workforce, the pressure created by what is asked of him is reminding him of the past, which feels like trauma that he's been through to absolutely literally death. He's seen it. You understand? So he now has to work even harder because of this, this fair that he can cause that to somebody.

Lynn: And that is the, the the power of the fear of death. What's interesting is as you were talking, I was picturing like this giant wall, we'll call the wall mistake Ville. Like it's like a wall and I'm living on one side of the wall of I'm going nowhere near a mistake and I'm very uncomfortable in the pressure that that is created. Anytime that wall kind of looms over me, I try to prove myself to be okay. I do anything I can not to be wrong. I, in this case, this guy's case, I'm a bully was the people I work with, but whatever. I'm not as he as he told me in that experience, I'm going nowhere near that failure on the other side. Let's say we can get past it and we go into thinking of it. I think of it as learning mode where we're listening and hearing and using our mental tools. There is a discomfort in that as well and we've done enough work together in the round pen for me to have experienced that where you you aren't able to rest on, I know how to do this because you're under enough pressure at that moment that you might know how to do it. The example I often use is I can walk beautifully in a straight line on the ground, ask me to walk beautifully in a straight line on a high beam,

on a building being built, a hundred stories up or even in my case maybe 10 feet up. I can't do that as well because of the pressure created by the consequences of a fall

Bruce  And I call that vinegar and honey and it was we assume accustomed to feeling vinegar that when we finally get honey, we're terrified that we're going to mess it up. So as great as the honey is,  it's such a reminder of vinegar and it's like, look, I am so accustomed to vinegar, why go for honey even though it makes me feel good because I know I'm going to mess it up and then it's going to be even worse.  Do you understand? Because I know I'm going to mess it up when and the reason is you're going to mess it up. But the beauty of this work is because you are trying to tell it what to do, when to do, how to do and of course you're going to mess it up. Because think about kids and raising kids. Not that I have any, but I have the horses when I walk in there and I start telling the horse what to do, when to do, how to do well in doing that. And telling the horse what to do, when to go to do I have a picture. So what is the, I'm actually asking of the horse when I'm doing that. Well, I'm wanting him to do a picture or, her. So for them to be able to do the picture that I'm asking of, they actually have to take the pressure that I'm putting on them, which is going to remind them of the past. Ignore that and give up control to me and do what I'm asking you to do. When am I asking them and how am I asking them? So I am asking him to give up control to me, but yet I don't give up control to them because I am deciding how much pressure to apply when I'm asking what to do, when to do, how to do now, what example are you setting there? And we all do that, but yet we expect the kids to do the opposite to what we're doing.

Lynn Well, let me, let me just take it right into the work I do with the corporate clients I have, I, every single client I'm working in has a dilemma. Meaning that they need innovation. They need their people to solve problems better than they have in the past. They want them to be creative. They want them to be, they don't want compliance. They want commitment and they want people to bring their discretionary energy to the table.  The list goes on. There are measuring engagement in every which way. It's been out for years. There's all kinds of ways we use  360 feedback, but, but most of the time the tools get put in a context where I'd love to have your commitment as long as it's compliance. Meaning I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, just like we do with our kids. I am, I want your very best thinking, but I'm not going to give up control to you.

Bruce And it was, it's, I call it, I call it a double tonguing. Yes, you're saying one thing, but you're, you're, you're, you're doing something opposite to set that situation up to fail.

Lynn That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I want your commitment. I want your best thinking as long as you do it my way. And because if I go back to this, I think it's because of this thing about mistake. It's like, well if you do it differently than I did or would have or thought of, it must mean there's something wrong with me and I don't you dare do that to me now. I think this is unconscious for the most part. I know it was with me for years and years and years. I like my thing about getting any kind of self awareness was this. I was happy to be self aware from a book, but as long as, as long as I didn't have to look at myself. But if I had to look at myself and own how screwed up I was, let's just go back and read the book and I can describe it to you, but don't make me own it. Don't make me do anything about it.

Bruce So, and you saying what you just said to break it all down in the corporate world, when one as one to do a particular task, the one who is going off to do a task watch or they're going to encounter, use one word. Think about the word

Lynn Pressure

Bruce excellent pressure. Whatever it is they're doing, it's pressure. Everything is pressure. So the bottom line is if that person could not handled pressure, the odds are they aren't going to be able to do the task, right? Because if you stop and say to yourself, if you've worked with people before, you're going to realize we'll sit down in the office, in the wherever it is we're sitting to discuss what we're going to do today. We'll sit there and discuss about what we're going to do today. And then they go off to do the task. And when you go and check on what they're doing, how many times have you noticed that what we discussed about quite clearly they weren't doing? Have you encountered that

Lynn more than enough? More than times than I could count.

Bruce And the reason is this pressure. See, we keep thinking that the horse is the problem or what somebody did to me is the problem or the dog, whatever. But it's actually the pressure created by that. And if you go back to the work, the missing that we talked about, one of them being the mental tools, whatever tasks you're giving that employee to do, they now have to go to bring it to life, to reality. To be able to accomplish that. They have to be proficient at their mental tools that are not problem-solving, timing, listening, hearing, discipline, work ethic, yada, yada, yada. And if you stop and think about it, but nobody ever told us consciously about that.  It was always get the picture done. So at that moment for them to accomplish a task, which is pressure, if their mental tools are not equal or greater than the pressure created by the task. Far less for the steps.  And getting to the task because to get to that end result, there are a number of different steps frames that they have to go through. Each one of those frames has a different pressure level.  And if your mental tools aren't equal or greater than the odds are, you are not going to be able to accomplish that step. Far less for the end. And then what happens when your mental tools aren't equal agree to than? Then your muscle memory kicks in.  subconscious. And of course that has been conditioned to be tyrant overreact under react. So it's actually setting you up to fail. So even when you were talking about, okay, yada, yada yada, but yet I'm not doing very good that's when the pressure's greater than and you're overreacting. Underreacting setting everything up around you to fail without realizing it. Remember you said just now I don't realize, I don't understand why I do that. And to me that's why you do that. Because until even though you have the knowledge and even though your mental tools are equal or greater than, the other thing that we need to do that we're not doing is recalibrating our  muscle memory. So when the time comes where our mental tools on equal or greater, which is where growth happens and you have to go back to the conditioning, the muscle memory, if that is still tired or not alpha, which simply means that it is able to do what the picture is calling for. So tyrant is where one overreact underreact therefore not accomplishing the task. Alpha is what one is able to do the picture. So in doing this, what you're realizing is until you come to terms with that and work through that or work on that, it ain't going to change. And that's where working with the horse in the round pen, the horse, working in the round pen allows you to become consciously aware of the three pieces that are missing in working with the horse. The more the horse doesn't do the

In the world that we have created people's world that would be seen as a mistake. And then you start stressing and doing the system and learning how to do the system when the horse isn't doing the picture. That is fantastic. And the reason why that's fantastic is this first and foremost, you see that the horse has commitment. Without commitment you have nothing, but obviously it's mental tools are greater than.

Or should I say the mental tools aren't, are less than the pressure created by what you're asking and the pressure that you're asking is reminding the horse of the past. So at this moment, this is a great opportunity in doing this work to allow the horse the ability to rewrite the past, acquire his mental tools and lift them up a great moment.

Empowering the horse to find its authentic self. And for that to happen, we have to be alpha. So it's going to happen basically is as the horse starts doing that, you start going into tyrant mode. But then that's where my job comes in. I become the conduit that makes you consciously aware when you're doing tyrant.  And the way that I do that is by pushing you negative pole up. But here is the piece that we are missing in humanity or in, in, in, in the world right now when somebody is correcting somebody else, they still are doing what they want to do, when they want to do and how they want to do. When we do it, we let you tell us what to do, when to do, how to do right. And the difference there is this. When you do it the way you want to do it, when you want to do, how are you going to do it? You're making a bad situation worse when you do it. The way that the nature's view system shows you what you're doing is taking a bad situation and making it a learning and teaching opportunity. Right.

Lynn I actually re remember this is calling the mind when the first time I was actually in the round pen and I was coiling up the rope and it's not that simple and my, what I was not, you gave me specific instructions on how to coil it and it was, it had tension in the rope and you said no tension in the rope. And I kept to coil it and the horse, Trinny I believe was in the round pen. And as my negative pulse started screaming through the roof because I couldn't get this to be done and I was using my very well trained corporate. I've got this face, which means nobody is supposed to see that. I know I'm making a mistake. I know I don't know what to do. I know I don't know how to get out of this, but I'm not going to admit that to myself or to you.I'm just going to sit here and show how calm, cool and collected. I am under all this pressure. And so the Trinny started running. This is the horse. She started first just walking and there was, she's 30 feet from me and then the higher my pole went, the higher her pole went because she can read the negative energy coming off of me even though, and of course you can too, but I think I've got you. I'm totally bullshitting you. I'm trying to bullshit the horse. That's totally failing. And she starts running and eventually she's kicking. And this is all as I'm just standing there calmly trying to, coil Not exactly calm but, but I was putting on the calm face that I've got this face to, to, to do this. And it was an example of how that idea of pressure changes things because what was happening inside of me that was invisible was I was learning, even though I was pretty panicked and, and trying to prove myself worthy, I was in the froth.

I was enough in that discomfort that I didn't know what I was doing, that we recalibrated my muscle memory to no longer go there when I couldn't coil the rope. And you know, many times since I've been in the round pen coiling, the rope not succeeding, sometimes it works better than others, but never having had the horse do that again because we recalibrated my muscle memory to that level of pressure. Now you just find another way to create another level of pressure, which seems to me to be almost an infinite thing, which is the beauty of this work so that I've been able to increase the levels of pressure

Bruce and what happens to you when the, when the levels of pressure increased, whereas in the past you didn't particularly care for it. Now

Lynn I welcome it

Bruce because it allows you to build your mental tools that allows you to find the linen.

Lynn I actually really like it when it shows up and you know, I've some of the backstory that people may or may not know is, a little over two years ago, I was very much what I would call a green horseback rider. I was on the third time in 20 years I'd been on a horse over and it was over the course of a couple of weeks. We were on a trail ride. I got thrown and I really did get thrown because when the horse wasn't doing what I ask it to do, which I, I'd now I really know, I didn't know what I was doing. I sent some signals to him that we're both going stop at the same time and I won't go into all the details. that story is being written as we speak. But I had a backstory that said when I was sitting there coiling that rope and watching Trinny run in the round pen and start kicking up from the energy that I was putting off, it was exactly what the horse did on the trail from the same kind of energy that I was putting off.I was not capable of handling that level of pressure.

Bruce So here's what comes to mind when you bring that up. So if I understand you correctly, because you want it to be perfect and not mess up because of the pressure created by the rope. Yeah. And you didn't want to let me know that you were messing up.

Lynn Was I going to let you know I was messing up?

Bruce There was this internal something happening inside of you that was creating a whole bunch of negative pressure, which so much so influence the horse, right? Because that's how they communicate. So here's my question to you. What is the message that when you are in that mode is being sent to your physical body all you are not telling the physical body that there's a threat to the body. And is it possible at that moment because of the stress created by this, the body then responds in a particular way to release it and things within the body to help find that balance, to get rid of that stress, which is a false and have they not shown that whatever it is being released is why we are possibly suffering from heart disease, diabetes, cancer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Lynn I absolutely believe so. And what I'm learning, is adrenaline is what our body sends us. It's the hormone for fight, flight or freeze, which is the survival mode and endorphins actually follow in adrenaline when you have successfully resolved the problem. Now, the problem I'm seeing in my clients is, and I, and I think this is absolutely true, I, there's lots of articles on this as well, is the whole society is adrenalized and we're living in fight, flight or freeze so much without the natural endorphin kick of ever feeling like we've solved the problem. So here's a live example with, with, with one of one of my clients.  and I'm, I've, I'm never going to name of my clients, if you happen to be one of my clients listening to this, I promise I'm never going to give it away who you are. But in this particular case, she was rewarding herself for a job well done with things. And I think a lot of us do this. I certainly have with either a glass of wine or an extra piece of cupcake or food or something and then beating herself up over gaining weight. And the exercise that we just did was how about letting yourself have the victory and, and let the, the success in and of itself like claim the success. And it had never dawned on her to actually like go, wow, I did that because I think one of the things we do is we call that big headed us. So we train people to not to their own horn, to not own their power, to uh, just be like always so humble that you don't even get to say, Hey, wow, that was a job well done. I it took me a few tries but I figured that out or I won that client business or I finished that project plan or whatever the work is.

Bruce So in other words, what you're saying is when they finally accomplish the goal, yes. Yeah. When they finally accomplished the goal what they have a tendency of doing is rewarding themselves with something tangible. But here's my question to you. Do you remember being in that situation where you're struggling to accomplish something and you finally accomplish it? Do you remember the euphoria that you felt?

Lynn I the one, yes. And actually one, the one that was probably the most tangible, I've had many, many of those here in the round pen with you, but the, the probably the most amazing one was this. Being able to, when I'm doing my riding lessons, I want a bare back pad and I have a tendency every single time I ask something of the horse to lock my back, sit forward and actually put myself in a more precarious position with the horse on many levels. I've lost my balance. I'm sending danger signals to the horse and I'm not in flow. I'm all of a sudden like a two by four and on this particular day as she's yelling at me from across the, not yelling in a bad way, but your back is locked. She taught me how to do the, she'd doing that. She was giving me why was she doing what she was,

Bruce it's not the yelling, but the pressure created by the yelling. She had to apply more pressure than the commitment of whatever it is to cause you correctamundo to get back into the moment because you were in the past. That's exactly the position that you're in. That's exactly right.

Lynn And it was the, Oh my God, I'm about to, I better brace myself because the feeling of vulnerability and, and we were, we were, we were operating at a trot

Bruce because of pressure created by what you're doing. What started to remind you of the past. Your mental tools weren't equal or greater than, and you started to slide back into the past and your body started to slide back into the past. And so therefore she had a shock you back in

Lynn to bring me back into the moment, because I actually, when, when my back locked, Lynn left the building, right? Like I actually wasn't there. So she brought me back, I regained my seat, my balance. I actually relaxed. She was yelling at,

Bruce so what you started, so what you started doing was instead of working on the horse, you started working on yourself in working on the horse.

Lynn That's exactly right. And then with the, with the most relaxed sense of being, I gave the cues, the horse turned, we were doing some serpentines at a trot. And the, the feeling of endorphins lasted for the entire day.

Bruce So basically at that, in, in that, in those moments what happened was you started to rewrite.

Lynn I did.

Bruce And instead of making a bad situation worse, you started rewriting, lifted your mental tools up. You wrote, rewrote the past instead of the past interfering, you started letting the past guide you. You started bringing mental tools up, alpha tyrant. You started learning to be in control, to give up control instead of trying to control and all of a sudden you got that. I feel really good,

Lynn genuine physical endorphin care.

Bruce Okay. So you felt really good. Why was it you felt so good?

Lynn Well, there's so many layers to that.

Bruce So just keep it simple. What's the first thing that comes to your mind when I ask you when you finally feel that? Because I have accomplished it. I finally got it done. Even though I was having a hard time, I finally got it done and all of a sudden I feel this.Yaaho Ooh. Yeah. Why is it that you felt so good at that moment?

Lynn Well for me it was, it reminded me of skiing and it's that feeling of it is a physical sensation and it's like I was inhabiting my body fully. It was like,

Bruce why are you feeling so good? What was it that happened that allowed you to feel so good? so here's my question to you. Are you feeling the word and you had running round? Is I got the picture done?

Lynn No.

Bruce Would that be an answer that a lot of people would see? The reason I feel so good is because I got the picture done.

Lynn Yes. Cause I've achieved the goal.

Bruce Okay. So I want you to listen to what not what you said, but how you just said it. You just said to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when most people accomplish something they go good. I got the picture done. Yeah. In words, I didn't make a mistake when in actual fact the reason why you feel so good is not because you got the picture done, but because I just got a natural endorphin kick.

Lynn Exactly. It felt good when you and where most people say,

Bruce I got the picture done right. I made like, you're not breaking the cycle. Right? The tyrant cycle is still there.  But when you were able to consciously see that, I go to a natural endorphin kick, in other words, it's no longer about getting the picture done, but in getting the picture done, I brought my mental tools up. I rewrote the past, I got to rewrite the past. I go to start to recalibrate my muscle memory because the more pressure that the situation was putting on you, that pressure was reminding you what they did to you originally. Now what they did to originally when they applied pressure was they used Tyrant pressure. For you to accomplish the task, you have to use our alpha pressure to work on the situation, not tyrant, And for you to be proficint you had to be proficient at these three things that I'm talking about, right? You have to stay in the moment. So therefore at that moment when the horse or the situation started putting that tyrant pressure on you, you in return did alpha pressure. Right. And then so doing the pressure created by that situation was equal or greater than the past. So until you recalibrate the muscle memory from Tyrant to alpha, you're not going to change no matter how much knowledge you have.

Lynn It's not knowledge, it's about the,

Bruce do you understand? I do. So at that moment, because you did alpha, you recalibrate your muscle memory to alpha. And a good example of that was just now when I was in a sense trying to not really entrap you, but yes. And unlike, you said, well I won't mention any clients' names. Lynn is a client of mine and I don't really like the word client. Yeah. What you just heard there was, when I asked her what was it that caused that you've ORIC feeling, most people would say, cause I got the picture done, but Lynn was struggling. She didn't want to say, I got the picture done, you know? But she said it three or four times prior to that endorphin kick. Yeah. I've seen endorphin kick. But when I asked her that, she was like, she normally when I ask people that, the first thing I would say is because I got the picture done

Lynn and, and let's, let's talk about this because so what happens then? And this is how the cycle, this is five, you have to keep at this becauseit could say, well great, she's got it. Lynn gets to just carry on and now she's, she's got it. So guess what happened the next time I went back, I go to catch the horse and he's just looking at me like maybe not today. He's in a group of six horses and getting him out of the crowd, which I've been able to do before this particular day because I was chasing the goal again. Now my goal was the endorphin kick. So we, our mind has a funny way of twisting and chasing. So that particular day I'm sure I was on the mounting block or trying to get, get off the mounting block and onto the horse for an extra 15 minutes because I was so goal oriented. So what now my picture was, I'm going for the endorphin kick that I've had to remember every single day, stay in the moment, greet the horse that I'm facing today and going to be with today. Not the horse I had yesterday, not even the horse I had 15 minutes ago. Yeah. Because what happened with him that day, this day of this magical thing. And it's happened many times since, but never quite as memorable or as potent as that particular day. That moment he also became alpha and the the, when he trotted, and I'm on a bareback pad where I can't exactly post cause I've got no stirrups, I could sit that trot like we were flowing with water because he and I, he was supple, I was supple, we were in a, in a harmony together. That is unspeakably beautiful. And those are fleeting moments, but they're worth chasing. But, but the only way to have them is like the butterfly that has to land on your shoulder. You can't chase it. You have to, you have to be in the moment and let it happen. So you have to allow it. And I think that's a deeper meaning of what you're saying. Let it tell you what to do, when to do, how to do it in the moment.

Bruce So if I understand you the second day when you went back because you felt so good about the day before, if I understand you correctly, you were starting to basically use alpha to embrace your tyrant and it was, you kind of lost the power because you thought you had the power. So yeah,

Lynn that's ego, right?

Bruce But that's a cool thing about it. But, but, but the, but the neat thing is how long did that last for you?

Lynn Which, which that,

Bruce how long did it take you before you recognized that you were actually being tyrant but using alpha to justify it

Lynn quickly during that particular session and then it was just a matter of recovering and,

Bruce and that's a swing back and forth from one extreme to the other. Yes. Yes.

Lynn And, and then what I've done is, so for the very next time I went, as I found myself embracing, how do you it embracing alpha or using alpha to embrace tyrant. As I was chasing the endorphin kick, as I'm driving to my lesson, I caught myself and said, today, just listen.

Bruce Just let it go. Yes,

Lynn just show up. And the horses were in a different location. There was a new horse that hadn't been there before. I was curious and so forth. And on this day what she, what we do, she calls it driving draw is you go in, um, kinda swished the halter and pay attention to the one horse he's, you know, way across the and try to call the one horse out of the crowd. And because I was totally with the horses that day, I was totally listening. I greeted the one that came up to me and then shoot him away, brought the other one to me from, you know, I don't know, a hundred feet away. It's kind of like, yep, you come on to me. And he came happily over and we had an amazing session Again,

Bruce who told you how to get that horse to you?

Lynn  He did. And to do that, what did you have to do? Listen and be alpha. You understand you had to give up control of the horse and that Italian

Bruce and in so doing, how do you know that the horse isn't training you? He's, how do you know the horses and testing you to see if you're worthy like it. Remember you said another horse came up and then this one came up. So by you standing there and by the horse standing there, he was putting pressure on you. Yes. Are you truly alpha or are you just trying to pull the wool over somebody's eyes? So I'm going to raise the pressure on you, right? And see how good you are. I notice how you're like, it didn't start before my messing up. Letting him know. It's like, no, keep working. Keep working on opportunity. Opportunity as opposed to a mistake. And it's like finally you proved yourself worthy to the horse. So therefore possibly then the horse came to you.

Lynn Well. And so it's interesting because there's this, there's a, there's a thing I'd heard about horses that I think has a direct parallel in the corporate world. And it's this, it's that when you're with a horse, they know if you know how to ride them better than you know, if you know how to ride them, they say the horse has always knows. And I've seen this happen many times where I've watched a green rider ride a horse and then, an experienced person ride the same horse and it's like two different horses. And visibly you don't see a difference. But invisibly there's something that person is doing that you just can't put your finger on. And you're nodding your head. Like with a lot of recognition in the corporate world. And I've had a lot of clients ask me to quote coach them on this. It's a concept called executive presence. The minute somebody walks in the room, even if you've never met them, some people have executive presence and some people don't. And some people have bluster that they're trying to create as executive presence and some people, but the truth is the horse knows whether you're putting on the bluff or not. And I think at some level, as humans know as well, and it's there, it's a package of invisible skills in sort of like the mental tools and the muscle memory and much more, it's like all in the invisible world that people have. And this is what I've started recognizing about what is so valuable about working with horses is first of all, they don't lie. They don't read invisible. They don't read executive presence based on your resume. Most people, we forget to read people. And so they walk in the room and we go, well that's so-and-so and they've got this title and that's so-and-so. And they've got this title. As opposed to coming in and saying, well, who is this person today? And listening to them and hearing them and noticing where they are. And this moment, you know, I've been in meetings where people were so flustered that we couldn't get anything done and nobody would pause to say, Hey, let's just clear the, the fluster, you know, stop the shuffling of papers and stop the like for I'm so sorry I'm late. Or whatever the thing is that created the fluster and let's just reset and start working together. No problem. No, no harm, no foul. Let's just work. So anyway, I'm just thinking that's a great reason why I think working with the horses is so powerful because they are telling you the truth at all times.

Bruce To me, what the horse is giving the person is the ability to, to get back in touch with your authentic self. You go to school and you acquire all this knowledge and you'd like the top of your class. The problem with that is this, now you've got to put that to practice,  And to be able to put that into practice, you have to handle pressure.

Lynn And that's the first thing people talk to me when they come to is I'm under so much pressure. I have, you know, shareholders or investors or other stake holders or I've got the public, it's a lot of pressure out there that people are having to face.

Bruce To me at school, it's like there's a Hawk around just so you know, see all the chickens flying around. Um, at school they do such a fantastic job to prepare people with the knowledge needed to do a task or to do a job at the same time in doing that, they're also perpetuating tyrant, don't screw up, blah, blah, blah, blah. So on one hand you have the knowledge of the other hand, they're actually sort of, how should I see, um, condition you even more to be tyrant. So when you go into the workforce, you are really knowledgeable about the field that you're going into. But it's like catching the horse. When you go off to do what it is you do, every situation, every job is different.  So you have to be able to listen to the situation and take the tools that you have learned and use it for that particular situation. When to do how to do. And you're not taught that, which is what this work shares with you and it gives you that other piece that it helps you to be more balanced or or more rounded. I'm going to hit you with a twist since you talk about the corporate world. This is a piece that that that we don't talk about very much, but it's a key piece in the corporate world. Is it fair to say that if one is filling a position, a particular position that you normally would have a number of people applying for that position?

Lynn You hope so. You want a lot of choices when we're hiring people.

Bruce Correct, but if they all studied the same thing, would it, why? Why would it be so difficult to pick a particular person or a person? So you're not just looking at their qualifications. The one thing that you realize that every person is unique, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you're hiring that person not just because of their qualifications, but because of that unique individual that they are. Is that a fair statement? Are you wondering where I'm going with this?

Lynn I am and I'm, well I'm actually re, I'm not just wondering, but I'm actually thinking of ways. I've seen people try to put people under pressure in the interview process just so they can find out a little bit about who they are when everything's not so canned and pretty because you know, we all know how to go do an interview day, right there are know seven people have your resume. People walk from building to building. They've got their best suit on, they've got, you know, they've, they've got their happy face on and they're, they're dressed to impress and they're acting like, I've got this and it's really hard. Some people are better bullshitters than others. It's really hard to tell until you get them under pressure how they're going to show up. And so I've seen people try to get people under pressure. I think that might be where you're going is how do you find out who you really have here when you're trying to make a choice or frankly when you're trying to, the choice. Like a lot of people are trying to get a different job or try to be the one that gets selected. And it's like they're good, we're good. I'm good at this, at reading what you want and showing you what you want. It might not be who I really am.

Bruce To me it's like I was telling you that that often on, I work on writing a book about this work, but, I've been pretty stumped. And then as I go along it, it becomes a little clearer. But then you sort of wonder how to start. And I basically feel that where it needs to start at is what is your ultimate goal? And the big question that one asks or has asked themselves is what is it that I would like to do in this world?

Lynn And that's a big question for some people.

Bruce Yeah. Uh, normally, you know, dr loyal, blah, blah th cause that's what you perceive, you know, whatever it is a particular ________. And to me that's where the big downfall comes. The answer to that question is, what is it I'm supposed to do in this world? Is this to be the authentic me that I am and until you are the authentic you that you amend to be no matter, what career path you follow to me, you're not going to reach, you're not going to be able to do that to the fullest extent, if that makes any sense.

Lynn A ton of sense. That's the reason I call my business creative spirits unleash.

Bruce So to me what this work does is first and foremost allows you the ability to find the YOU and know what are your career is is basically the vessel that you're going to use to practice in finding the you so and the you is not going to just be like, okay, there I am. It's a process. You understand? So to me that's what life is about. Life is about becoming the you and the job is the vessel. Whatever your passion is that I used to work on becoming the me, which then goes back to the finding the middle exercise. In the first part of that exercise, the first thing that 99.9% of the people do is walk straight to where they perceive the middle is and basically they look at the whole round pen and they're trying to please the whole round pen to place that rock. The second part of the exercise, at this point I have spoken to you in length about the negative positive pole about the three pieces that were missing, the negative positive pole, letting it tell me what to do and how to do and the mental tools we talk about also the muscle memory, but in this exercise we're not really working on the muscle memory, even the horse, even though the horses in there, the emphasis is not to work on the muscle memory at this point, but to become, how should I say, in tune with the three pieces experientially. So the second exercise you place your orange flag. Remember you already have four blue flags from the first exercise, so you take one of the four orange flags for the second exercise and place it next to one of the blue flags. In this case, we went with the one from the North. And what you want to do is cut the round pen in half. So basically you have six and six because remember the area of the ramp and was 12 to do that I have to place a flag on the opposite side of the first flag. So I will go to the South end. And what most people do is go to the South end and then sort of look at the first flag and then place it and put the flag down. But now what I show you is put you back to the fence. Look at the first flag. And I want you to take three steps either to the left or the right. And when you do that, you're going to realize that in making those three steps, I have now caused one side of the round pen to be smaller on the other side to be larger. So it ends up being something like five and seven. At that point, your negative pole goes up. So what I'm doing here in this exercise is one, allowing you to problem solve by making you move. I'm putting you in touch with your negative positive pole. So when your negative pole goes up, it's no longer a mistake, but an opportunity like you. So rightfully said, it's our greatest gift that we've been given.  So when you're now fully, let's say on your poles and not seeing it as a mistake, but an opportunity, what happens is that you are now becoming a conduit. You're learning to be in, to give up control. Do you understand that?

Lynn And that concept of being a conduit has so many layers and so much depth

Bruce  in the corporate world. If you can't be a conduit, how can you possibly sell something to a client when you don't know what the hell the client wants because you're trying to tell them what they want, but you can't listen to them, you know, because I know everything. So anyway, let's just stick with this so we don't wander too far off. So your negative pole is up. Fantastic. So I, I, one of the reasons for doing this exercise, going back and forth, it's sort of otherwise known as the Goldilocks is one, it's not a mistake but an opportunity. So the more you move back and forth, the more you train yourself, not a mistake, but an opportunity two when you're listening to your negative positive pole, the little voice in their head that everybody has will still go off.

But the problem is because you have nothing to do with the negative puzzle and you can't control it because you're a conduit. Now that little voice cannot influence you anymore. So there's no if buts or maybes cause that little voice to say, Oh, go a little bit left. No, no, you understand? So then what I have to do to swing back and now go and find five and several on the other side. So when you went in one direction, you had five on one side and seven on the other. So then I have you swing back, go past that Mark where you believe was where the second flag goes and take three steps the other way. But instead of taking three steps, what I say to you is this don't count. Do you feel what it feels like for the round pen to have five and seven? I want you to swing to the other side and find five and seven on the other side. So feel it. And then how that they're getting accustomed to feeling instead of thinking or counting. Then I said to them, okay, now look for six and six and play with it. Go back and forth like you're adjusting a bynOculus. Yup. So what's happening there is they're working on problem solving, timing, listening, herring to the letting it meaning the two pieces. Tell him what to do when to how to do. They are keeping the picture six and six so they don't have to actually do anything and then all of a sudden they will find that spot and they will place that second flag, which is an orange flag. And then they do the same exercise for the third flag on the fourth flag. And by the time they get to the fourth flag and place it using this system where they're not working on finding the middle, but they're just working on the steps to be in the moment and find the moment and letting the middle come to them by making these steps. So in other words, what are the steps to getting there? So they get step-by-step. So by the time they get to the fourth flag and they place the fall flag where that pulls up balanced, where you have three and three, I had them stop and look around. Do you remember what you noticed about the flags when you got to that point?

Lynn We've done this a number of times. The first time I didn't want to do this at all because I was like let me just put the damn flag down and let's find the middle and get to get onto the horse. You know, cause I was very goal oriented. But the flags are almost never exactly in the same place as your mind. Counting them would be.

Bruce So are you saying that the blue flags from the first exercise and when you do the second exercise, the orange flags don't line up? The only ones that line up are the first ones. The other three don't line up. Okay.

Lynn That’s Right. There's almost always a Delta.

Bruce And here is the question, which are the correct flags, the blue ones or the orange ones. So which one did you feel were the correct spots?

Lynn If I had to operate on one after that, after understanding what I was doing, it was the orange ones.

Bruce So the bottom line is what you realized was the orange flags where the orange flags were word to you, the North, South, East, and West

Lynn for me.

Bruce Correct. It is also with everybody else that I've worked with. So if you stop and look at an exercise, this is what I found out the other day. This is what came to me, the first exercise. Remember I talk about the two worlds. Nature's world. The world we’re created for and people's world,  The world we have created. Yes. Remember I talk about how we've been conditioned to survive in people's world, which to me is a false world. When people do the exercise, the first thing they do is they go straight to the middle. In other words, that is the conditioning done by people's world. And that middle that you are finding is the, you've creating who you are. Do you understand? so the middle is you perpetuating or building you when you do the other exercise, what you realize was the blue flags that you were working off of were not correct.

So therefore the middle that you accomplished was actually not the middle and the person building those and creating that was being tainted. So if you stop and think about the first exercise is a reflection of how we have been tainted by people's world and we're not treating the you but a you. And as you said just now, and what you're realizing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but what is it I'm supposed to be, I've worked with my life is to become the me, not it particular job, We're putting the cart before the horse. It's kind of like taking pictures. Everything is reversed. It's like looking in the mirror, trying to do something. You have to do the opposite. So basically what I show in that exercise is how the world we have created is actually not beneficial to our wellbeing. Because when you do it the other way, the exercise the other way, not finding the middle, but finding the points to find the middle, the flags don't match up. That's the proof that our conditioning is not beneficial to our wellbeing and what we're actually doing is losing touch with our humanity. So when you do the exercise the second way, it's not about finding the middle, it's about the steps in finding the middle. You are building the you who you're meant to be,

Lynn which is to me a really practical way of talking about that set internal guidance system. It is, it is going inside to that system and those tools that were God-given and recalibrating them to be me because they always were me and quit having the programming say that feeling means there's something wrong with you. That feeling actually means there's everything right with you.

Bruce So now I'm gonna throw you in the deep end because we haven't really talked about this, this, this, this whole conversation here just has evolved.  But since you have lived in the corporate world, and that has been the world that you grew up in.

this madness that I talk about and experiencing it and listening to it and knowing what the corporate world is looking for and listening to us and experiencing this. Do you not think or believe or feel that if the corporate world takes us now and instead of producing a product, if they now change their way of doing things and instead of producing a product instead of doing that, change it around to where we're not going to produce a product, but in producing this product, our energy is going to be an empowering the people that we're working with in producing this product. And by so doing are you then going to produce not only a better product but because through the horse and because through the system you're becoming more in touch with your humanity I.E. nature, which is to be the steward of this planet. Is it fair to say that we are then going to be able to produce not just a product, a good quality product, but a product that is going to be more beneficial to the environment and in soldiering? Not only that, but when your customers see this product that you're producing and how you're producing it, by empowering your people instead of using them to enrich yourself, you're now lifting them up through this product, which is whether we like it or not, we're going to need products still because we have been conditioned to have products.

Lynn Absolutely. I Still want a washer and dryer I don’t want to go down to the Creek,

Bruce but when people see that this company is doing it this way, but yet there's another company that's talking green, but it's actually still, I'm taking something that is less than using to enrich myself was great as a marketer, but you understand. Whereas these people are being green because it's not about the product. But in producing this product we are in a thing. So we're taking something that is less or lifting it up and the byproduct is us lifting ourselves up. Who do you think the consumer is going to support? Would they not then support the product that is, is our company that is supporting their people and producing a product that is more environmentally friendly and will be beneficial to the consumer.

Lynn So it's like, that's such a big question because what was going through my mind is you're sort of setting the stage is many companies are trying to do this.  the thing I have found in myself, and I think, you know, one of my questions for you is this is so cool. The work is so compelling to me. the ability to take pressure and have it quit being an enemy and all of a sudden become a healing force, which is what I think you do with the help of the horses, the question that I have had is as people play at it, it's not hard for alpha to start embracing tyrant. Meaning that they could end up, it's a, it's sorta like a prison. They, head out and they, they think they're doing it and then they hit one edge of the wall and they try to correct it. They go hit another edge

of the wall. And I try to correct that and they just kind of stayed in the same cycle. The,  the example I have heard is I had a teacher teach me this about information versus transformation and this is how they described it. So you, you picture a form. So, the all of us have, it's our own shape. Just imagine drawing circles, you know, a random circle on a sheet. And that's kinda my edges of my capabilities, my skills, my ability to handle pressure and all the knowledge that I get comes in that form. So for companies that are trying to do this, everything comes into that form and then they try to be green, but until they transform, meaning they cross those boundaries, which means they have to change their assumptions. They have to change their beliefs, they have to change their capabilities under pressure, which means they have to do this deep personal work. It doesn't happen in the head and it actually doesn't even happen only in the body. It happens down at the cellular, emotional, energetic level. That's what's happening in the round pen with me that I feel like the theory and the, and the goal, if you will, if you want to call it a goal, the picture is the right picture. The question I'm trying to ask and I'd have for you is how do you get more people to be willing to put themselves through this to get there?

Bruce The thought that comes to my mind is remember earlier haha. Good luck with that one you were talking about and I can't remember what the situation was like. I knew to do this, but something was blocking me from doing it. Do you remember that?

Lynn I've had that happen so many times that I don't,

Bruce yeah, so it's gonna like I knew to do this, but when it came down to it, I was actually setting myself up to fail. You know, you were telling the person to do this, but I was acting in such a way that I was actually, I call it a double tonguing. Yes, yes. So what I'm hearing you saying is corporations are actually trying to do this, but they're having a hard time doing this because when they start on the process of doing it, it's almost like they get blocked from accomplishing what it set out to accomplish.

Lynn There comes up, there comes a time because it's like being on it. Some people call it the tip of the spear. I call it walking a tight rope. And here's how it plays out on, on the tight rope is exactly what you're talking about in terms of alpha, but takes a lot of training to walk a tight rope and it gets really hard when the tight rope gets high and we fall on one side or the other. So on one side we become very empathetic and everybody's leading change. Everybody's trying to make some kind of transformation happen or handle the pressure. And as the people around them start going into whatever mode they go into in that pressure, people on the empathetic side of that tight rope will often be so soft on the people that they'll take on and suck up the work themselves. And instead of holding onto deadlines, instead of saying, Hey, this is what we're doing, they let the people off the hook while at the same time making life hard on themselves. Because every time you let them off the hook, you now put yourself in a position of having to still get it done. On the other side,

Bruce which, which I'll let you go to the other side, which then reminds me of this little thing here.

Lynn So you just picked up my daughter's book called dear parents,

Bruce if you are holding their wings, they cannot fly. And because I don't want to do to you what was done to me.

Lynn But then on the other side, and this can happen in the same

Bruce and that falls in the Tyrant

Lynn can happen in both of these are times. Absolutely. But on the other side, and this was the kind of world I grew up in,

Bruce they overreact

Lynn It’s the suck it up buttercup, right? So I actually remember a moment where I was talking to somebody about the change we were leading. And I said, you know, a lot of people are resisting and we got to think about how we sort of let that resistance, I always say, let the resistance create traction. And I said something along those words and he looked at me with cold eyes and he goes, let me tell you how we handle resistance. We break it. We tell people. So in his case, forget empathy. He's so hard on the people. Now, what he doesn't realize is he's letting himself off the hook because what happened there and that project and every other one I've ever seen where this happens is you have created an underground, I would say you'd say, well, you want us to get on the train while we're on the train and we have Uzis and we're plotting your death.

Bruce It goes back to if somebody or somebody’s had done train, people are conditioned to be tyrant. Survival perfection two by four mistake. That was actually consciously done. They have done a fantastic job because you just proved in what you're saying how they've done a fantastic job under react, overreact. No matter where you go, you're not going to get out of that.

Lynn You don't get out of the Cycle

Bruce The  cycle absolutely. Right. You understand and so therefore even when you do accomplish a task, it's like, and I feel really happy because I got the picture done in other words I did not make a mistake. So that word mistake, it's so loaded it stops any humanity from growing. In fact, just the opposite. It's sucking it out. Now the problem that is happening because of this, suppose that conditioning that if somebody did do or somebodys did do, where are we have gotten to now is this this, not only Are you only polluting the people endorphin In other words, they don't buy stuff anymore. Or the stuff that they're buying is they have self-medicating, right?

Lynn We're replacing endorphins with Xanax and other kinds of numb, I call it numbing and dumbing.

Bruce So, so basically you're, you're literally killing your cash cow faster.

Lynn Isn't that ironic? Okay.

Bruce  And one two forget about that. What's even worse than that is this, which actually will affect them, assuming that them are humans, people, it's going to affect them. And they'd been trying to look for a solution for this for many, many years looking for another planet that has water, sunlight, and oxygen, and they have not found it. And why? Because if you stop and think about it, what's happening Those three things in our world right now, we're destroying those three things. Give us that. So not only are we taking the people and polluting them, but we're also polluting our environment. So when this girl the other day, you know, sailed across the ocean to come to the UN to talk about global warming, saying that there's a problem. It's like, no, there is not a problem. There is not a global warming problem. Now there is a problem with global warming, but global warming does not a problem. They environment does not have a problem. There is a problem with the environment. And why did she come to the UN to talk about this saying that this has a problem? Well, what she didn't realize was she was getting there but she hadn't got there. The problem is not the environment. The problem is the people

Lynn just like horses don't have problems.

Bruce Absolutely Because when I started this, I wanted to help horses survive in the world we created and I suddenly realized very soon into that journey that I was a problem. Then the system evolved. And then the unfortunate thing was I said, you realize because all I want to do was work with horses. I'm done with people. I wanted to run away and I couldn't because I had a dog and horse to look after.

And I suddenly the system evolved and I thought, Oh great, I'm done now. I just can work with horses, but I realized to help horses I have to show how horses are going to help us to get back in touch with our humanity until you become consciously aware of the three pieces and in doing stuff. Practicing and building those three pieces, practices understand one, but the other part is also do include the horse in the equation and the why you have to include the horse and equation is to be able to practice this and allow this to grow. You have to have a safe, a self safe system, which is your muscle memory. Your glad to also grow the muscle memory along with these three pieces. In other words, you need to recalibrate the muscle memory from Tyrant to alpha and this is where the horse comes in through the experiential interaction with the horse, which is not a horse, but your corporate company, yada, yada, yada,

You're learning the habits that when the pressure happens, it's not a mistake but an opportunity to for you to practice, yada, yada, yada. For you to become alpha. You understand? So what's happening here is you're not building or creating anything, but in creating whatever you're doing, you're building yourself to become more alpha, to become the person you're meant to be, which that was allowing you to be the steward that you are meant to be. And the byproduct is we're producing these products that are going to be more environmentally friendly, but we're also changing our way because there's no stress. Because I don't want the picture to happen because of the picture happens. There's no pressure. And if there's no pressure, I don't get to grow to be the me.

Lynn And that's how we get the ME to be the me

Bruce and why the horse? Because first of all, the horse has been with us for whole journey of evolution, I don't care if your host personal not to. Why the horse? Because they're big enough to get you to take that mask off. Yes. You know the mask I'm talking about,

Lynn Yes I do you saw me try it

Bruce three. Why the horse? Because for every one horse you literally have two horses. The left and the right because of their eyes. So you have to work both sides of the horse to help the horse survive in the world. We've created, as you knew it, you have to work physically, both sides  the horse four why the horse, he doesn't care if you're white, black, I have money, don't have money, male, female. What your religion is, what your sexual preferences are, whatever the story is that otherwise has stopped you from moving forward. The horse does not care. So as Americans say, the buck stops here. And why the horse? Because they're very forgiving. As long as you've made an honest mistake, the horse is a prey animal, you’re a predator. So when something happens and you could see that you're messing up and then that whole starts hanging out with you, what you send, you realize, well, if I'm that terrible, why is the horse with me? Why is the horse following the predator? And then what you're going to realize is what I'm imagining. And the reality of the horse being with the predator isn't true, which then allows you the opportunity to be kind to yourself. And allowing you to start changing those habits so they no longer are controlling you. One link at a time. So you right now are the slave and the slave master to them. It is your choice now, which you didn't have before to change that.

Lynn Wow. That's a very, it feels like a very complete statement to everything we've been talking about.

Bruce But what's even more complete for me personally is this careful what you ask for. Because when I started going down this road, which I did not choose, it was often my mother's passing that this started. And it is my belief that is my mother that put me onto this path, which was to help horses survive in the world we've created by so doing and showing this because this information that I'm sharing with you, I can assure you that I got from notebook, this was all through working with the horses over the last 20 something years. I'd been working with horses all my life, but specifically on this journey. And to me the gratifying thing here is now, and so sharing this with you, you're realizing how it works. So if I can get one person to realize how it works to the extent that she set up all this equipment to share with each other, to share this conversation, if I could get one person to get it, whoever would say it's pretty educated. Does it not prove that what we're saying is correct about the horse and the work? So therefore to me, I realized that I'm reaching, the goal that I set out to do, which I didn't intend to do, was to truly show how horses can help us. So in other words, if you stop and think about it as important as horses were the industrial revolution, I show how horses are actually more important now than even back then, Because of those missing pieces. If we keep going down the road, we're going forget about the people that are killing themselves, that we are killing blah, blah, blah, blah, sunlight, water, air,

Lynn sunlight, water and air. It's about saving the planet.

Bruce In other words, if you stop and think about it, people to me, why are people here? We're the stewards of the planet. In other words, visualize this one.

Can you visualize what the physical planet looked like a hundred years ago? So if you were to look at the planet from outer space and take a picture of it, and I don't just mean a picture. Well yeah. Okay. From outer space, take a picture of the planet a hundred years ago

Lynn that was actually on the news this morning, I saw Florida. It showed Florida from the international space center and it showed the lights at night and you could really see like the Tampa area, the Miami area, the Orlando area, you could see where all the lights were and where they weren't. And I actually had this thought, I looked at it and I said before electricity, that's dark. You don't see any of that. And that was not that long ago in the scheme of human life.

Bruce But if you think about, and I would say even more than a hundred years ago, let's say you look at the planet 200 years ago,

Lynn 200 is a good number,

Bruce and you look at the nature of the planet, look at the tree growth, yada, yada, the ocean quality, yada, yada. So if you look at the quality, the physical quality of the planet 200 years ago now, compare that to where the planet is today. Big difference, right? Not good. If you stop and think about it, do you remember, I think it's the Greek or was it the Romans Atlas holding up the planet. If you stop and think about it, is Atlas holding up the planet or is the planet holding Atlas up by giving a purpose in life and his Atlas us as a group people. And how are we doing as a people otherwise known as Atlas when it comes to the planet? Right. And how was that for a visual? I mean, I would love for an artist to draw Atlas. You know how they sort of like draw horses with people? You know what? I bet that people that make up the look like a horse, right? It's like I love for them to take people and make an Atlas out of people. And then you have an  planet sort of looking rich and then you have another picture of Atlas made up of looking all kind of like bent and twist and then reflecting.

Lynn Well I'm, it's interesting because as you're speaking, and I'm not sure I've ever really thought about it this way, cause I think a lot in terms of rich exchange and how we need each other, but I'm not sure the planet needs us as much as we need it

And yet we don't live and survive without the planet. And so that is enough right there for us to wake up to our stewardship.

Bruce The bottom line is the ones that risks are not the planet. The ones that risk is us. Do you understand? And for us to survive, we need to be that steward. You know, because remember it is not Atlas holding up the planet, but is it the planet holding up Atlas? If you think about the planet is the horse. The planet is a horse. In other words, you're not there to help the horse, but you're there to help the horse to help itself.

Lynn Because the horses don’t need us either they can live on their own. They, they do quite well in their herds. Yes, they live and die. There's a cycle of life.

Bruce But if, but if they're not okay, it's because of us, you know, so. Absolutely. So, so the point being is it's not nature that has a problem. It's, it's we have a problem that's creating a problem with nature, but it's going to survive and we aren't. And we're showing that already. Look what's happening in our societies around us. And we won't get into other subjects that both society,

Lynn we actually, I've just paid attention to the time and realize that, we've been going for awhile and, so bef so it's kind of feels like we're at a good stopping place after I asked this question, which is, if you think about who might be listening and it could be anything from horse people., I've got a lot of people in that world, corporate world, athletic world. What would you want them to know or to maybe even try? Let's say they can't come to work with you. I am going to finish by asking how people could come to work with you, but let's say they can, but they're interested, they're intrigued. They want to understand their internal guidance system or the negative positive pole, the mental tools, how to let it tell you what to do, when to do, how to do, what would you give them as an encouragement of a first step to try on their own? And I don't think you can, I don't think you can change yourself on your own. I don't think transformation is possible in a vacuum. But let's just say you want to get them started. What would you say?

Bruce Well, I don't think it's exactly what you're asking for, but if you allow me a little lenience and I'm going to do this little exercise with you, which I'm sure I've done with you before, but it's almost like a great little exercise for them to do with somebody who has listened to the podcast, just for them to see what the response is. And do it with it possibly with more than one person. So you get the part about the two worlds, people's worlds, nature's world, and in people's world. If you don't know your numbers, you're an alphabet, you're not going to live very comfortably. Right. So, and nature's world question to you now is this literally, what are the three things now, if you have the correct answer, don't answer. Just tell me. I know what the answer is. Okay. Oh, maybe, maybe I wouldn't say just answer literally. What are the three main things that your body has to have now, there are a number of them, but what are the three main things that literally your body has to have to survive? Without it? It's dead.

Lynn and you want me to answer? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to answer the survival method. I got to have air first because in three minutes or less I'm dead without air. Water, I think they say is three days and then food is 30 days.

Bruce Okay, good. So those are the three things that a majority of people would say. So with that said, here's my question. I would like for you to tell me the first thing that comes to your mind when I ask you and I do that twice. So I want you to tell me the first thing that comes to your mind when I ask you now I'm going to ask you something. Now, the reason for asking you something is to get some action going to be able to answer the question, right?

Lynn And I'm going to actually ask the listeners to play along with us. So as he's asking me, and I'm going to give an answer, but I'm buying you some time. Play along.

Bruce That is, that is a great way of doing it.

Lynn Yeah. Let's play along.

Bruce Play along. You heard the three things that she said, which was air, water and food. So write down your three things or say them yourself. Yeah. So again, tell me the first thing that comes to your mind when I ask you and I'm going to ask you something. And whatever it is that I'm asking you is what we're going to use to stimulate movement to be able to answer what I asked of you. Okay. So under the heading of food, I would like for you to give me a name of a food, preferably a vegetable.

Lynn Okay, so hamburger came first. So I'm going to say lettuce because lettuce is on the hamburger and I can't eat tomatoes now and I think they're free to officially anyway. So I'm going to say lettuce is the vegetable, but hamburger actually came to my mind first because I'm hungry. It's getting close to lunchtime and that's all I could think about When you said food.

Bruce So did you answer what I asked of you?

Lynn you said food, the first thing that came to mind preferably.

Bruce So are you repeating it for me or you're repeating it for you?

Lynn well I'm repeating it to say, wait, what did he ask for? Cause there were actually two things you said, the first thing that comes to your mind and then preferably a vegetable.

Bruce So if I'm not mistaken, you said hamburger, but then you went with lettuce

Lynn because you said preferably a vegetable hamburger.

Bruce So, but hamburger was the first thing. But the thing that you went, where's was lettuce, was it not?

Lynn And then I said, well, better if it's vegetable. I'll say lettuce ,

Bruce is it not fair that you went with lettuce

Lynn I did after that

Bruce  but you covered your ass by saying, but I, I, the hamburger came to my mind first because I'm hungry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But after saying all of that, you ended up with lettuce. Yeah.

Lynn Yup.

Bruce So what was it that I asked of you?

Lynn Give me the name of a food. Preferably a vegetable. Oh, give me the first thing.

Bruce Ah. So that was, that was fantastic. Feel the sound is works. So notice what Lynn just did. I asked her what was it I asked of you and she started going down this road about, give me a name of a food, preferably be a vegetable, yada, yada, yada, yada. When all of a sudden she said you remember? No, he said earlier on that he's going to tell me something and that's what is going to be used to stimulate movement to answer, which was telling me the first thing that comes to your mind. And when I said that at the beginning twice. Tell me the first thing that comes to your mind. Did you feel yourself go, okay, good. I'm going to tell them the first thing that came to my mind.

Lynn Yes,

Bruce  but when it came down to it, notice how you didn't

Lynn because that's our conditioning.

Bruce So what I'm trying to show you is this, even though logically we knew to say the first thing when it came down to it, not because of what I did, but the pressure created by giving me a name of a food Preferably vegetable. That pressure was greater than your mental tools. How do I know? Because you did tyrant, you overreacted under reacted. You gave me lettuce even though there was something in your head saying no, see hamburger because that's the first thing. But when it came down to it and you had a choice, you chose lettuce but covered yourself by saying hamburger. But when it came down to it, you suddenly realize I didn't tell him. And that is an example of how even though you have knowledge, when the pressure is greater than your muscle memory takes over and sets you up to fail. Right. So what I'm saying is to people, you read all the books, you dah, dah, dah, until you recalibrate the muscle memory to alpha, you're not going to reach an accomplish the things that you are setting out to accomplish, whether it be helping the environment, blah, blah, blah, blah. Until you do the work on you.

Lynn And what's interesting is, this is a direct parallel. it's a conversation I'm in all the time. Is that sort of standing up in the face of dissent? Sometimes it's in a meeting, sometimes it's with a boss. It can be with a spouse, they can even move with your kids. But it is calibrating and correcting yourself to please the others versus doing what was ask or standing up for what you said. As soon as you start questioning what you are doing very intentionally I should say that this is not a game and it's not a trap. It is a way to create pressure to cause me to second guess myself, so then I can find the through line of my own thoughts.

Bruce It's actually not to cause you to second guessing yourself because that's not really you. That's your conditioning and you see that's the beauty of this. She thought that that was her, but she's now realizing that's actually not me. That's my conditioning. so the cool thing about that is you start realizing, all right, you asked me to sort of share with people a way to help them to start to do the work. I want you to look at the task that you are doing when you're doing a task and then notice how you start beating yourself up when you don't accomplish the task. After listening to this podcast, what you're learning is about tyrant and alpha. At that moment. When you don't accomplish the task, you are going to perceive that that's a reflection of who you are. After this conversation that you're hearing, you're going to realize or hopefully realize that actually that's not me. That's a conditioning done to me. So therefore what I'm doing is perpetuating Amy and by not changing it and taking back my life, for example, how can I see or practice a change in myself? How many of you all have friends out there that I would imagine by now you understand what the negative positive pole is. So in other words, notice if somebody gets into a space and starts crowding you, you feel that thing going up. That's your negative pole. Okay, so how many are out there Have a friend that has said or done something to cause your negative pole to go up? Everybody.

Lynn Everybody. Okay, so they got pushy or, yeah.

Bruce So what I want you to do now is put a number to it. So think about that. The negative pole going up. It starts off at zero, which is peace of mind and then one, two and it goes all the way up to 10. So my question to you is this, how high does a number go before you should actually, Or before you actually say something to somebody, if at all. And with that said, here's the question, how high should it  go before you should say something to that person? And if the tables were turned So here's the catc, If the tables were turned and you did something to that person who is a good friend of yours or friend, not intentionally, how high do you want their number to go before they say something back to you and do you want them to say something back to you? So with that one, I will leave that with them. . Did was that clear enough?

Lynn It Was And, and I'm going to say notice the difference between your two numbers. In other words, does your poll have to get to a five or a seven or a 10? Before you say something to your good friend about having, you know, not invited you to the party or having, brought something to, your house that you wish they had in or whatever they've done it, how high does it have to get and how high do you want it to get with them before they say something to you? I'm not going to set it up to say, in fact, I'm going to hope that people in the comments to this will actually give us some of these answers, but, but it probably is going to be two different numbers.

Bruce So, so, but here's the other piece before I forget it, because I've gotten to that stage in life in a sense, we've kind of given you two exercises. One was the three things that you have to have right?

Lynn And how you calibrate your brain.

Bruce So for what were your answers, okay, that you came up with and share that with Lynn.  Two it was the negative positive pole thing. When your negative pole goes up, when you've experienced it again, share with Lynn your experience, what your comment would be as to what you, what, how high their number of your friends number should go up before you want them to tell you something. And then with that said, so you have two things that you need to share back to Lynn. But here's the kicker in doing it and you don't share back with Lynn, what mindset are you using and who are you allowing to control You still, in other words, what is stopping you from sharing that with Lynn? Especially when you find out that what your answers are were correct.  By sharing with Lynn is how you can now start making the change personally. By giving up control, you are then going to give up control and be in control. Because understand the person that is able to share this with Lynn is now taking back their life from them. The person that is not able to share with Lynn is consciously allowing their past to control them, which there's nothing wrong with that because not everybody's ready for that, but don't blame anybody but yourself. So it's your choice, but now you know how you find peace of mind and to be in the moment, and actually you talked about Lynn having people that are horse people.

What I have found in doing this work, the ones that have the hardest time are the horse people

Lynn because they think they know

Bruce because they have preconceived notion because this work is not natural, is this work? The name that came up for it or the system is called nature's view, but the work overall is known as natural humanship. And the point being is, is that in working on the horse, you're actually working on yourself as opposed to what's known out there as natural horsemanship, which is working on the horse and of natural way. But I believe before you can actually reach natural horsemanship to the levels in which you deserve to be, you first have to work on actual human.

Lynn So Bruce, tell people how to find you. Let's say, let's say somebody says, wow, okay, I'm willing to go into the transformation because I will say it is a transformation.  and I can actually put this in the show notes. I don't know that you're out there on the Twitter world or the, g-mail world

Bruce   right away. I just say Julianne because that's where Julianne comes in.

Lynn So we will actually make sure in the show notes that you

Bruce rushing now because

Lynn he doesn't do email so, so I actually found one of the cards.

Bruce And I don't know if there's an update. No, he said, I don't even know if this card is a

Lynn Right. Well we're going to make sure and the show notes that people can find you also you can find him through me cause we're going to have a place for comments and also there are going to be people who say, yeah, I am happy to share with lynn my answers

Bruce I think it’s  nature's view.us.

Lynn Yes. That's what I have found before. So there's a website, it's naturesview NATURESVIEW. US and you can reach him there.

Bruce And we also did the documentary called the edge.

Lynn And so if you'll Google the edge horse, I believe you'll get this. If you do just the edge, you're going to get the Anthony Hopkins movie or something else like that.  is it okay if I share your email here? Okay. This is the email that I email you too. Yes, the email is natureviewus @yahoo.com. So those are ways to reach him. And if you want to share with me and not share in the comments from the exercises, lynn@lynncarnes.com is my email and you can come straight to me on my email and I will answer you.  I would love to have so many listeners to this podcast to answering it that I can't handle all the emails that come in. So help me have that problem and we'll deal with that later as it goes down the road.

Bruce You know what you need to do, Lynn now is you now need to take a picture of where we're sitting. But not only that, but you do notice Maddie, Maddie's a dog while this was going on, maddie was so excited. She's a two year old blue healer Australia. Lucila she was so excited when Lynn got here and she was like, jumps up and Ooh, look at me. And she has this little, this is the bad out here on the porch with all the little toys on it, which was given to me by my friend's Arnold Debbie come around and she brings me all her little stuff, toys because she wants to play and wants to be part of the whole talk, go lay down. So I shouldn't have pressed him.

Lynn When he, when he did the squeaky toy that says to Mattie, come play with us

Bruce was that finally she went and laid down and went to sleep on her bed and I was saying to Lynn to take a picture of her but then stupidly a little squeaky toy and she's like so much for that.

Lynn But we will take a picture, we'll have a picture on the show notes of where we were sitting because you've, you've heard a lot of noises., we had the, the acorns hitting the, the tan roof. We had the roosters going crazy. We had the hawks, we had some trucks going by and we've had the chickens. But Bruce, I can't thank you enough for taking this much time out of your day. We've had these conversations before and I've always said we should record them. And I wanted to catch an authentic conversation where we talked through just like we did today this. So I'm thrilled that we were able to do it. So thank you for being here.

Bruce More importantly, I am thankful to for you lynn for allowing me this opportunity to share with your, your people, your friends, your, your followers.  the power of the horse, you know, to me, this is my journey that I share with others. and it's not about me, it's about the horse. So prior to this doing this work, I was existing. Now I'm living, you know, is it difficult? Whew. Yeah.

Lynn Well, living is living,.

Bruce This, the harmonious out there are existing, you know, and how many of us already defined their authentics self and here's your opportunity and who needs this? Anybody that's breathing

Lynn and especially anybody who wants to go past existing and in delivering.

Bruce Yeah, absolutely.

Lynn So with that, I'm going to say for anybody who wants to go past existing and it'll living, find a way to get yourself to work with Bruce. He works here either in Camden, South Carolina or sometimes in the Tryon North Carolina area, or I'm sure he might make arrangements to help you in other locations. And  and I have not even really shared my journey here with the horse myself, but I will say I've been on this journey for about 20 years, but the horse has entered the picture two years ago. And what they have done to enhance my knowledge and, and transformation to being more of myself is nothing short of mind bending. So thank you for letting me share that.

Bruce And whenever people say thank you, I always say where you thank me if the pass it, which is otherwise translated as alpha on because to me, if you have alpha in your life, what can you not do?

Lynn So what we have, what we would say for everybody is go be the you that was born on this earth to do what only you can do. And with that, we'll close.

Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now, what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.