#14 Peter Barr, Nationally recognized trail builder on living a life of fulfillment

Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. For this episode, I spoke with Peter Barr, who is a nationally recognized trail builder here in the hickory nut gorge where I live. I am incredibly grateful to Peter Barr for the hiking trails that he has built in this area over the last few years. Here's the thing I learned in this conversation. Peter likes to work under pressure. In this episode, we're going to hear about how he hiked the Appalachian Trail in 2010 on a deadline and why he had to be finished by September 1. It wasn't because of the weather. We're going to Hear how he built wheat patch Mountain Trail on a deadline when nature threw everything but the kitchen sink at him, including a historic fire, you're going to also hear what he's doing now to add even more pressure and more opportunity to his life. So here's a little bit more about Peter Barr. First of all, he is a natural born storyteller. In the organization he currently works for conserving Carolina. He has written over 60 stories of the land as columns and the Hendersonville times. He understands land and loves the stories of the land. He's a native of Charlotte, and in the podcast, we talk about how he came to go from Charlotte to western North Carolina and what really drew him to be here. He graduated from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and is actually the author of a book called hiking the lookout, hiking North Carolina's lookout towers. He has a new book coming out in April 2021 called exploring North Carolina's lookout towers. Here's the thing about him as a hiker. Here's just let me just read for you some of the accomplishments that he has done because he's known as a peak bagger. And not only did he hiked the Appalachian Trail, which is over 2000 miles, he has traversed all 900 miles of trails in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. He has reached the highest point in 40 united states of the United States, so he's found the peak in 40 states. He has reached the highest point of all 100 North Carolina counties. He's climbed the Adirondack 40 sixers, the New England highest hundred, which is all summit's over 790 of them above 4000 feet in elevation. And he's done more than 1700 and 50 ranked peaks nationwide. If you wonder he's he's not 100 years old. He's done all of this, and he's in his 30s. So imagine that he is outdoors, obviously, all the time. So this is an amazing conversation that I really hope you enjoy. If there's anything for this conversation, you're going to hear not only the themes of how he uses pressure to create opportunity, but what it really means to live a fulfilling life, and how adventure plays into that life. So please, please enjoy this conversation with Peter bar. We could have gone we went over an hour, but we could have gone for five hours. So enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Peter Barr. Peter, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I can't believe you're here and not for long,

not for long. I will be leaving in 11 days.

So I actually want to start there because, you know, people just heard the introduction. They know a little bit about who you are. But you have Just made a huge life decision to live life on the road. And I want to hear about how you came to that decision and tell us the stuff that not it's not the just the details stuff but like the the I like think you've never used this word but the waffling stuff like should we or should we go should we stay or should we go that kind of stuff because I think a lot of people are making choices right now about life. And probably think everybody else has got it figured out and they don't understand no big decision like this gets made without a little bit of Should I stay or should I go?

Yeah, absolutely. So it is a huge huge decision and not one that we have made lightly. So plenty of waffling plenty of Should we go or should we stay. So we in 11 days are headed out on the road to live full time in RV and travel of the country and essentially become full time, adventures and many things went into that particular decision. The one thing that we are not doing is just doing this on a whim. This is very, very calculated. But at the same time that doesn't make it a an easy decision to make. So both myself and my wife Allison, we we love to take adventures and we love to see spectacular sight sites of nature. We love to explore cities, we we just love the pursuit of places that are new and unfamiliar to us. And for about the past 10 years, every summer, we have taken a big road trip, anywhere three to four weeks. We've even expanded This sometimes we take a two to three week road trip in the winter to around Christmas time. So Alison teaches school. And so summer and then around the holidays is when we've had the opportunity to take these these big adventures. And for about the past decade, we have had a truck with a camper top on the back of it. And we have slept in the back of that truck and put all our gear and all of our our stuff that we need for the adventure in the back of that truck and would take off across the country and sometimes different parts of the country and sometimes a little bit different adventure. Sometimes we're going and climbing big, big mountains. One time we took an adventure and became we we spent about eight months learning how to become rock climbers to climb a particular mountain. One time we made it a backpacking trip where we backpacked on the Appalachian Trail for a full month and covered Several hundred miles but we would this would be a pretty much a constant every every summer and then most holidays to take these adventures. And they they were endlessly fulfilling to us just endlessly fulfilling. In fact, it became so, so much part of our life that we would look forward to it so much that we were essentially living one adventure to another. We would be planning and brainstorming and dreaming of our next adventure. On the way home from the previous adventure, where are we going to go next? What are we going to do what's what's next and we would spend the next six months or next 12 months looking forward to the next adventure and and planning for that and preparing for and sometimes learning a new skill.

So tell me I have to pause because what really struck me with what you just said is it was so fulfilling, so dive in a little bit. What is it that's fulfilling because that When you say adventure, I don't just hear great peak experience. I also hear sometimes adventures have things go wrong. So, you know, what is it that makes it so fulfilling?

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny I have heard it said that. If you take a trip and you make a plan, you execute that if everything goes to plan, it doesn't make for good, very good story. And but then if something goes wrong, that's actually when, when that makes for a good story in itself. So that's a good point. It's not just about seeing these amazing sights and having these incredible experiences. I think we are really fulfilled by the totality of the experience. And so yes, seeing this amazing sunrise or reaching the top of this peak, but it's all the unexpected things that come up, including the obstacles and the adversity adversity that we face. You know, For example, there's one time where we're deep in north woods in Maine and we we get a flat tire and then the tires is just in terrible shape. And we're more than 30 miles from the nearest town and that town. We're not even the town doesn't even have a red light, but might be our only hope. And so, we spend three hours underneath the truck trying to figure out how to get the spare tire released from its particular apparatus to change the tire and completely up ends our plans for the next two days because then we have to figure out where we're going to get this tire patched and all that and in the moment, it certainly feels like oh, everything is going terribly and, and or our itinerary is has been thrown off. But it was an experience like that. That was one of the most rewarding of the trip because we weren't expecting it and in the moment it was it was extremely stressful and extremely tumultuous in the experience of what are we going to do? Are we going to be over right? Are we going to have to spend the night out here in the middle of nowhere are we totally stranded, but kind of working through that and overcoming it, and then adjusting and then still going on and having the rest of the experience that we were expecting, that really made it the totality of the trip really dynamic and more rewarding and helped us not take for granted that everything is a given. So when we go live full time on the road, we know things will be like that we are actually acutely aware that by going in quote unquote venturing all the time and will have the ability to be free and see everything want to see but that life still goes on there will be things that go wrong, conflict will still occur. Not every day is going to be that that picture perfect view from the top of mountain but that is also appealing to us on many many levels because We know that we'll still experience life and experience all those ups and downs. But in that really, really dynamic way.

So I, I can't help but think it's like you didn't say this exact thing, but it's as much about the journey itself as it is the goal of the journey. So we're going to see a sunset or we're going to climb a rock or we're going to get on a certain peak, but it's the getting to it and the adventures of getting to it and going through life that strikes me is what's fulfilling to you not just the collecting a bunch of notches on your belt, am I hearing that right?

Oh, without question. In fact, we've we've done a great deal of studying up and reading up and talking to couples and individuals who live this lifestyle. And that has been one of the biggest pieces of advice that we've received is to enjoy the journey of it, and that includes all all the good and bad and it is at least Fun on the surface, very appealing to us to do all the planning and the preparation for it, because that's a big part of it as well. And that's that component we're very used to when we were go every six months or every 12 months, we're getting ready and we're getting excited for it. So that's a part of this too, but that planning, preparation and experiencing and then adjusting to what goes right and what doesn't go right. That instead of for a very narrow window of opportunity, have a shorter three week trip, that will be almost on a daily basis because things are going to pop up and we might change our mind where we're going to go and something bad could happen, something breaks down. Or something could happen to one of us where we have to change our plan. So knowing that that's going to occur and knowing that will be a component of our new lifestyle is is absolutely part of the the adventure itself. Mm hmm.

Are you looking forward to that part?

Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, of course, I could tell you I could sit here right now and tell you that I hope that over the many years we hope to be doing this that we never break down and that we never have any major obstacle and that everything goes to plan. But first we know that's not going to happen and to if it if it did, that wouldn't it wouldn't be as much of an adventure so it might actually strike at it might not be fulfilling if we don't have the opportunity to overcome adversity like that. And, and then at the same time, it also if everything went just perfectly, it wouldn't necessarily grow us as as people to be able to take those experiences and learn from them and grow from them in other components of our life,

so that's that's what I'm excited to hear about as you decided to do this because I was saying the answer to fear is skills. And of course when you talked about being 30 miles away and tires, broken, And you're under the car and trying to figure it out. I've been in such similar situations with my husband, and it didn't go well. And it was enough to make me say, No, I'm not ever getting in that car that breaks down again. Because I don't want the conflict. I don't want the question, you know, even though we got out of it, but it strikes me that that's a big part of this for you is you kind of are welcoming because you have skills. And you kind of want to be tested is what I'm hearing. It's almost like, not a no, not in a like shake your fist at the universe kind of way. But more in a like, let me just see what I'm made of out here and see if I can become more of that. Is that also what I'm hearing?

Yeah, definitely. And that plays into kind of the timeframe. I think we experienced some of that on these short and I say short, relatively speaking, the short three to four week trips compared to what we're going to be doing when we would encounter some of the adversity and have to deal with that. We would and I I think we'd learn from it and grow from it grow from it, but it would always be in a very concentrated fashion meaning like there, you only so much good and bad can happen in that short amount of time crammed into kind of a whirlwind three week window. And so we're really looking forward to kind of a much wider opportunity for that for for the good and the bad. And meaning that the the highs and the lows, the highs and the amazing experiences, there's so much more opportunity for that both in quantity and quality. And then the particular say the in the moment the lows that we can overcome that we can learn from that we can grow from those will be higher in quantity to and then the depth of their impact to us. Hopefully higher in quality also. Yeah,

how are you going to keep track of your story? Are you journaling? Are you going to be keeping any kind of notebook or video diary or anything like that? Have you thought about? And I'm not saying necessarily to share with the world, although I think a lot of us in the world would love to follow your journey. But what would you How are you keeping track of it? Because I know for me, I let things go pretty fast. Unless I write them down. I forget them.

Yeah, well, that is a great question that we don't have a certain answer to yet. But it's a really good question, because it's one that's at the forefront of our mind. And I'll explain what I mean, why it's so hard. Why we don't know yet. So, a bit of background on that. I took another very what to me was an epic adventure a decade ago, where I thru hike the 2000 mile long Appalachian Trail over the course of about six months.

So that's rare company.

Well, and is it Turns out at the time, that was a huge adventure. That was the biggest adventure of my lifetime. And up until now has been the biggest adventure that I've taken. And it's it's definitely exciting that the adventure we're on the cusp of is, I think that will, I would like to think will look small and in comparison because this is going to be a multi year adventure, many more places, many more different experiences. But I was very excited about that adventure. And I was very conscious that I knew that I wanted to record that journey, both for myself so that I would never forget it. And also similar to this journey, many, many people, friends and family and colleagues were extremely interested in following along and being excited for me and almost wanting to live vicariously through me which I greatly appreciate. Yeah, and was very flattering and I can I appreciate that on another level too, because leading up to that adventure I, I would read journals from people on on these long distance hiking trips, and they mail them home and people would transcribe them. And I would, I would just consume these journals and these these trail stories just voraciously. And so I knew the value of that I knew what it I knew what others chronicling of their adventures meant to me when I was at home, not adventuring. So I wanted to do that for others, and because I was proud and excited of my journey, too. So I began doing that on the Appalachian Trail and over the it's about a six month journey. And I kept that up for about two months. And then I quit cold turkey because it ended up becoming what very much felt like a job and it started really negatively impacting My experience, I recall actually having to, quote unquote take several days off of the trail where I would go to a library in a town I would sit there on the computer all day long catching up on my journal entries from the past week because I would get to the end of my day's hike. Okay, that's what I'm going to write down everything that happened and the emotions that I experienced. But I hiked all day, and by the time I finished, I was so darn tired. I barely had enough energy to cook my dinner that night, let alone set up my tent and do all those other things. So it became very, very burdensome. And I realized that wow, this is really impacting my experience. And so I found myself in a really what felt like a tight spot in that well, I, I feel like I owe it to others to share this experience with them that they now have really been hooked into right there. There. People are at home, checking every day to see where I'm at and And how it's going. Again, very, very flattering. And I, I felt a debt to those supporting me on my journey, just just through their attention, and then the kind words of support they would send. But it was it was killing me it was it was becoming just this huge stress this huge weight on my back to keep up with it. I also felt a burden towards myself of, well, this is an incredible experience. I might never have an adventure like this in my lifetime. And I very much want to document it so that as time goes by, I can look back on it. Ultimately, I gave it up cold turkey and just kind of said, I can't do it anymore. And I'm a bit regretful of that because the first two months of that adventure on the Appalachian Trail are meticulously documented. It's still somewhere on the internet. You can go read my first two months and then you'll have no idea what the heck happened to me the final four months I did make it but But unfortunately too I, I very much changed and grew as a person and overcame many obstacles and dealt with adversity on that experience. But that went on documented for those who are following along as well as myself. So that kind of frames why this is a challenging question for me right now in how we're going to approach this. I'm like You lynn, like if I don't do it soon, I'll let things go run. Life as as my new adventure will still be, it'll be everyday life good and bad, can get in the way and documenting that and even sharing that can easily get passed, passed on and passed off and forgotten. And so this is definitely another adventure I want to look back upon myself in in years to come and share it with myself and family. And similarly, there's a lot of people really excited about what we're doing and one want to follow along in support us just in goodwill, and I don't want to miss out on the opportunity for that. So I feel in the same boat except now I have the knowledge of Okay, I can't devote too much of myself and too much of our time and attention to this, or it will fail from the get go. Between now and that initial adventure on the Appalachian Trail. Society, I think something good and bad has happened, social media has become much more of a accessible and proliferative platform. So on in one regard, that should make it much easier for us now to share experiences and and even so, maybe put less time in it rather than writing a whole journal, we could make a post and share what we're doing what's going on. And so therefore, we have that platform or those platforms available to us. To kind of overcome the will I have to sit down and write a long journal entry on I was literally Doing it by pen and paper back on the Appalachian Trail. So there's greater convenience to it. At the same time both Alice and I are we're pretty leery of social media and kind of the pitfalls that can occur with it. We see a lot of social media presence of individuals and including even full time RVers where the the posts and the photos that could made is they realize that they are kind of really sharing their lives with others. And so they are clearly hesitant to share entire completely honestly with others. And what I mean by that is if you go too many individuals and I think I know I've been guilty of this in the past when I was a bigger user of social media, and full timer in RVs that we follow. You see all the amazing pictures and all of the it looks like people have fairy tale lives. It's just like can create what we think is unrealistic and unhealthy yearning for Oh, I wish I was like those people because every day is a beautiful sunset or a mountain peak or swimming underneath the waterfall. And and we do hope that many days are like that. But what isn't being put on those social media platforms which have the opportunity to be more superficial, are are the bad days are the conflict where you're living in a tiny box and you hate each other's guts for a couple moments, if not hours or days. And you overcome that and that's not necessarily the thing that people are logging in to find out they want to see the sunset picture. So we have a we're very acutely aware of wanting to be genuine. And with that in mind, we want this adventure to be first and foremost for us. We never want to be doing something where let's take a picture because we know A lot of people on Facebook are gonna like this. So the genuineness of it is important to us. And we don't want to ever be indebted to just how we're going to keep in touch with others or what image we're going to create on social media. So with that in mind, we don't exactly know yet we know that we are going to have some sort of online presence, whether it be a website or a blog, or it might even involve social media. But we're probably going to figure that out in the first month or two on the road. We decided to kind of not have that figured out right before we leave part partially as well, because there's not enough time. There's so much to do before we get on the road. But we're gonna see what feels most comfortable to us. And we might have it in a way where only really close friends and family we invite them say to a private group or something like that and share pictures with them versus something that's entirely public or Have a website that can be more public and anybody can check in. Because I know I'm personally grateful to many of the full time RV Adventures of information they've shared that I know will benefit us on the road and inspired us to do this in the first place. But just being very diligent among us as individuals and a couple, to be living our lives for ourselves and not others.

That's it's interesting because you've paid basically you've sort of just given us it's like a how to manual almost on managing your mindset around who you're living for. And what matters. And I've played in this a little bit. I'm on social media I blog. I'm in a writing group and I have found that for me, it's a challenge to write for who I'm trying to write for and not for the broader audience. And, you know, I'm like everybody else. I paint the prettiest picture of my On Facebook, I can like there's a lot of deletes that happened before I put a good picture on.

Sure. And sometimes that's just business. And sometimes, I mean, that's marketing like that these are important things.

Well, yes, and but it's not really life. And what you are choosing to do here is go live your life a certain way, and like you hit something that really struck me was having other people live vicariously, you know. And so for the person that is living, tends to want to live vicariously. You know, and I do this sometimes it's because I don't have the courage to go do it myself. What would you say to somebody about the kind of courage you've had to summon to say if you're thinking about living vicariously through others? What would you suggest they try instead so that they don't need you to be the journaling? Social media master for them to live through, but maybe could light up their own life?

Yeah, well, I think my advice would be living vicariously To some degree is it has its value because drawing from a source of inspiration can be very, very powerful. So I know that I've been just consuming many blogs and YouTube videos about individuals and couples who who have already been living this lifestyle that that Allison and I are about to embark upon what we're doing isn't a, a new thing that is unheard of. In many ways, we have lived vicariously through others for some time. And now we're taking the leap to do it ourselves. So we've gotten inspiration from from various sources like that. And, but as long as I think for us, the big thing is to live vicariously to a point as long as you're getting inspiration from it, if it can encourage you You to ultimately make that leap yourself and really living vicariously as a means of gaining courage to make a decision that that is risky, and certainly would be a big change. But that if you're gaining that much enjoyment from seeing someone live, say, an adventure, in this case, then do some soul searching. If If, if you're getting enjoyment from that to such a degree, that you find yourself yearning and longing for it, then then really think about doing it. Because I mean, that is that's essentially what has happened with us, we we determined that we were being very, very fulfilled by our short three to four week trips. But for us, it was never enough. And we were seeing those who had had the courage to do this and make the full time commitment to live a life of adventure. And we drew that inspiration from them and said, Hey, that that could work for us. And is it important enough to us? And essentially, is it worth the risk for us giving up a career moving away from friends and family? Really kind of changing our lives significantly. And it ultimately we decided it definitely was, but but we very much benefited from first that living vicariously, to the point of inspiration to the point of then, let's do it.

It because it strikes me if you hadn't eventually made that choice because it was showing you if you keep living vicariously, you keep going back and saying I want to know more, I want to know more. That's pointing to something that's a passion for you. And I find a lot of times people don't know what they want. I will often ask people that I'm coaching or in in programs that I'm leading, what do you really want and they discover that what they want is what their parents wanted or what they think their career supposed to look like. or They're following some kind of formula instead of tapping into their own personal passions. And this kind of pointed you all to what you cared about. So you live vicariously, to the point of inspiration, but not so much that you had regret for not having done what you really wanted to do.

Yeah, I think I think maybe the fear of regret is is a real thing. And there's that was the acronym they say FOMO fear of missing out. I think the thought is for us. It's that we had identified that this that adventure and travel and new experiences and overcoming adversity all wrapped into one. We had identified that okay, absolutely. This is a deep value of ours, and has given us a lot of fulfillment on these short little bursts in the past and that we know that that will continue to give us some fulfillment and So why not seek more of it? So, not wanting to miss out on the opportunity in our lives like we we follow some YouTubers who live full time and do this and have learned a lot of logistical and technical things from their platforms and that but also gotten a lot of inspiration for them they call themselves. Today is someday. And I think a lot of people will use the phrase and if not the phrase, just the general sentiment the Someday Someday I'd like to do that. Oh, when and another classic one Oh, when I retire or, oh, when I save enough money, or, oh, when the kids leave the nest. You can insert any excuse in the book and that's ultimately what they are is excuses. Not that any one of those things isn't important, right?

are big and someone overcome,

right and many of those are very responsible choices like us. Some could look at what we're doing is somewhat irresponsible. I mean, we are kind of halting our careers, putting them on pause and going and doing this. So we we might not have savings accumulated for when we get to normal retirement age. But it it for us it boiled down to what is is truly important to us what is going to lead us to a life of fulfillment not just in the here and now but but even but even long term. And we made a commitment to make this something really important to us. So when it comes to financials, we decided to start living very, very frugally several years ago, to kind of see if we could make this work, both saving up for this adventure, but also knowing that when we do this adventure, we have to live frugally on the road to so are we capable of it? And that's just one example many that we determined that yes, we are capable of it because if you if you want it badly enough, you'll make it happen.

You know, there's so much there's so many places I want to go with that, because it's so many people do make that I made the choice. And I remember feeling first irresponsible, and then relieved when I was in my 40s. And I was sitting on the back deck of a house that we just built in like lore, having broken all the rules about stopping before retirement, you know, no way where we retired, we still had to make money to make ends meet for the rest of our lives. And we were hopefully a long way from that. And I sat on the back deck, and I thought, you know, this is probably the most irresponsible thing I've ever done. And then it's almost like, I just had this dawning awareness almost in the same instant of, I would a whole lot rather be here at healthy in my 40s than not able to get up in my 80s because I waited to live and sort of had been making those choices for myself ever since and have found it didn't stop my career at all. In fact, it Enhanced it. So I want to talk about career for a second, because that's how we met was through what used to be the Carolina mountain Land Conservancy. It's now conserving Carolina, you are fairly famous in the conservation world, for your trail building and for your work around your book, and so forth. So, take off from that anywhere you want. But I would love to hear a little bit about what your passion has been because you're not running away from a career you didn't like, you are leaving a career with a legacy of a trail system and the hickory nut gorge that I'm gonna get choked up thinking about because I enjoy those trails so much. And I think about you every time I'm on them. What what is it that that brought you here 10 or so years ago, and what's it meant to you to do what you've done in this area for access to land?

Yeah well, that's a lot. How much time do you have?

I'll take all this time you will give me.

So, yeah, I came to western North Carolina Asheville, Hickory nut gorge and in what will become conservative Carolina 10 years ago. In fact, I referenced my Appalachian Trail journey a decade ago earlier. I actually finished my Appalachian Trail hike on the summit of a mountain up in Maine, and in less than 24 hour period, hiked down, got an airplane, flew to Charlotte and drove up to western North Carolina and started my job at conserving Carolina in less than 24 hours. So it was kind of a pretty quick transition. I interviewed for that position on the Appalachian Trail by cell phone back then service was so bad I had to turn my head in the in a particular direction in order to keep service and I remember them I'm very big on on completing and achieving The dreams that are important to me. So remember when I did that interview on the phone, they asked me, I came in as an AmeriCorps member, which is a federal grant has very specific kind of guidelines. And so the the position started September 1, and you had to be there by then and it goes to a certain time period, and you had to complete your service in that by that end date. So one of the questions they ask is, Do Do you have any reason to believe or is there anything that would prevent you from starting your position at conserving Carolina on September 1 2010. And I remember having the mileage guide book in my hands and I'm kind of adding up the miles I was at mile 900 and had about 2100 miles to go and are 2200 miles ago and or I'm sorry, 11 hundred miles ago and so I wasn't even halfway done but I'm adding it up and on my own CATIA adds up to like 22 miles a day or something like that. And I met you know, I said confidently into the phone. Nope, I'll be there on September 1, and I wasn't willing to give up either dream I desperately wanted to work and conservation and this was my foot in the door. And I also 900 miles in I wasn't going to give up all that I had invested in completing the Appalachian Trail and completing that dream. So I suppose in a way, that was some adversity, I made it work. I I then didn't take a single day off of the Appalachian Trail until the end Actually, I got to the end of day early and I was able to take a day off before the final day in and waited for Allison to fly up and do the final little bit with me. But the the Appalachian Trail was actually a really significant component in my journey to conservation both almost as a as a literal one like in many ways I felt, especially in the latter half of that adventure that I was hiking back to western North Carolina to embark on the next adventure but in the mountains here. Prior to the Appalachian Trail I had, I had spent many years exploring western North Carolina and hiking and camping and backpacking and climbing mountain peaks. And it very much became more home to me than it did where I had previously lived and grew up in a more urban environment in the city of Charlotte. And prior to hiking the Appalachian Trail I had made the conscious decision I didn't know how or where what, that I not only alson that we were going to move to the mountains of western North Carolina, but that I was going to devote my career to them or amongst them, I didn't know anyone. What or in what capacity that would materialize. But ultimately, I realized that the mountains were particularly of this region were an important part of my soul and were really motivating to me. So I began looking into conservation and land trust and then eventually found out about the AmeriCorps program. So it was a passion that was sparked before the Appalachian Trail and that was always a dream of mine as well. And so when I quit one career working as essentially I was a scientist in Charlotte and worked in a lab with no windows and was was I got a taste of what was not fulfilling to me. While was a okay living, it wasn't touching my heart and my soul. So that led me to conservation I use the the career shift, quitting one job before starting another to take that other adventure on On the Appalachian Trail that I really was, had dreamt of since I was a little kid. When I started at conserving Carolina after finishing the trail, I knew right away it was it was my life's calling, so to speak. I, I joked with them years later, when I went from an AmeriCorps member, which is essentially kind of a, a service base, you're essentially volunteering your time you get a small living stipend. But in some ways, in a practical matter, it's an internship where you're helping you're putting a lot of your effort towards organization for very little compensation and but to help the mission of that organization, at the same time, also getting a lot of good experience and professional skills and learning a lot about how Land Trust works, how conservation works. And fortunately, afterward, I was hired onto staff but I always joked later that they could have kept me around without paying me so I would I've done it for free, because I loved it that much because it was very fulfilling to get up every single day and know that the organization you're going to work for its mission and the work that you do on a daily basis is very much contributing to keeping these mountains in their magical beautiful state. And ultimately, my career would progress in the direction of designing and building and maintaining public recreational trails, hiking, mountain biking, rock climbing, and that became even more fulfilling for me because I loved these places so much and I had been inspired by them by hiking and biking, climbing, in immersing myself in them. That then not only did I have an opportunity to play a role in their permanent protection and conservation, but creating opportunities for others to get outside and experience them themselves and I was always a big believer. In that if you if I could get somebody out on the land and if they could have a personal experience a direct relationship with the land where they could see it, touch it, smell it truly experienced it that it would tug on their heartstrings and they would love it too. And they wouldn't have to listen to me also other roles in my in with the Conservancy I was a writer and website and outreach communications. Nobody would have to listen to me and take my word for it about how great these places were. I was still try. But they would they would know it too because they would feel it and they would they would truly truly be convinced of it. So building conserving Carolina began not just protecting land, but creating these opportunities through trails, to facilitate people getting out there and then developing that relationship with them and then That is something that really brought me to conserving Carolina their initial interest in doing that. And then I'm so so fortunate that it was it became a central part of my career to be the implementer of that and design trails here in the hickory nut gorge to these amazing places that we have protected that have a lot of value just in their protection and much of this value, we wouldn't all realize until it was gone or screwed up or cut away or developed. So that is very important. But these trails taking whoever is interested in in seeking them out to these special locations where they can experience them in the here and now in their their amazing beautiful state was really really rewarding. And I've been fortunate to have done that for 10 years and absolutely adore it to the point where it is needed. nearly impossible to leave.

So you're not running away from a career you don't like you are leaving a well loved and very valuable career

Absolutely. In fact, Allison and I taking this adventure is we have committed to each other that this would be that we weren't going to take this lightly meaning we've committed that, that we're we're going to do this for a five year period, or at least a five year period. And, you know, we've thought a lot about that talk to other people about it. And they said, Well, what if what if you don't like it and of course, that's that's very, I mean, that's a possibility. But the the rationale behind such a significant commitment is that I'm leaving a career that I adore and cherish and it has to be for something very big and very meaningful to walk away from that. Because I'm not walking away from it lightly, I don't at the very least feel that, that career or the initiatives, the projects, the greater vision that I've been working on that I'm anywhere near to be finished. So, you know, way it's leaving, leaving that in a position of power, right, I'm making the choice to do that rather than being forced into it rather than, oh, I don't like my job or my career. Or Oh, there's a financial hardship and so we let's, let's make a big change. This is entirely elective, and it's powerful in one regard to leave something where you already feel you have what you want. But it takes the element of wanting to go to the next, the next big thing and the call of adventure in the call this dynamic lifestyle, and to share that with Allison, is is so exciting and appealing that it makes it worthwhile.

It That's amazing. And as I was reflecting on the passion you've had over the last 10 years because we work together a little bit back when you first came, I think I think you came when I was still president of CMLC. And we were just beginning to say trails are going to be really important. And I look back, there's a saying that says it's that we almost always underestimate or overestimate what we can get done in two years, but we underestimate what we can get done in 10. And in your 10 year career, there are a lot of new trails in this area and a lot of magical places that you've given people access to. So I'm going to ask the parent the question that every parent dreads, which is Do you have a favorite

and in the answer to that is just as hard as if if I was because they're your kids

these journals, you know, but I do I would love to hear you talk at least a little bit about a couple of the trails or what they you know, for example, weed patch trail we know you know, a lot People, not everybody in the world, but a lot of people know the story of building that trail in the middle of a fire and through a winter and lots of difficult, you know, challenges of getting landowner approval and finding places where you could actually put a trail. Because what you can do on a map and what you can actually do on the land are two different things.

Right. Yeah. So yeah,

just tell us a little bit about some of the magical places and the magical experiences.

Yeah. Okay. So I truly don't think I have a favorite. Where, where you and I stood a few days ago at bare wall mountain, that was the first trail that I had involvement with. I didn't design that trail and actually came along once conserving Carolina had started working on construction of it, maybe a couple months in, but was fortunate enough to be involved with with finishing that trail, and that was kind of my first foray into actual trail development and I was already hooked. On the mountains and the scenery and the value of conservation, but that trail really opened my eyes to the value of making a place that I knew was already very special to me accessible to others and how far that could go and the benefit of the organization the benefit of conservation in general, and the benefit of fulfillment to others in their lives and the inspiration that they get from that place. So the scenery and the significance of the bare wall mountain trail to the organization and I think as a catalyst to the ultimately the overall effort and everything that's ensued with trails and hickory nut gorge is special. So that's a reason it's my favorite, but every, every one of the other ones is also my favorite. You mentioned the weed patch Mountain Trail is another favorite, because it was perhaps the most dynamic project To implement because it was the it was kind of the little project, although it wasn't little by any means it was far bigger than anything we'd undertaken. But it was the project that could meaning it had obstacle after obstacle after obstacle that we overcame in its implementation and its development. Not because it will, those obstacles were easily surmounted, but because we had to. And that project taught me a lot of life lessons, many of which boiled down to when your back is up against the wall. And it's it's really important, it's important for yourself, and it's important to a whole lot of other people both now and for forever to come. That you'll figure out a way. So that project faced, not enough funding. And we started building that project when we had a little bit of funding, but not enough funding to finish At the same time, the funding we did have was tied to a grant that was expiring in only nine months time. And if we didn't finish the trail by the end of the nine months, we weren't eligible to keep that funding. So we had to start building that trail, knowing that we didn't have enough money to finish it. That's very nerve racking. I mean, this is kind of a gamble with potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars. But I believed in it so much that this is such an amazing project and it's going to be important to so many people that it's worth taking that risk because I think somebody someone will will believe in it as well or multiple people will believe in it and we will, we'll figure it out and we will figure it out along the way. We then it was one thing we we had drawn that project out literally on a map and it all made sense. But then when I got out there on my hands and knees in on the side of the mountain in the forest On the side of cliffs, I realized that where we had drawn it out, looked great on a map, but it did not work on the ground, we could not put a trail horizontally on the side of a cliff. Or we could not span this ravine where we're going to need 100 yard suspension bridge, at least not with the funding that we had so many physical things became impractical for and that caused us to forced us onto private property a handful times off of the property that we had to work with. So I had to go to these private property, landowners and and say, Hey, I'm your neighbor. And here's a project I'm working on and I could use your help and here's how you could help me. And doing that as kind of cold calls is, is a bit challenging and intimidating. And they were instances where I quite literally couldn't take no for an answer. I mean, they could have said no. But the consequence of them saying no, if they weren't going to work with us would be the project fails. And we were four or five miles into this eight mile trail. So a lot of pressure, a lot of risk. And these came incrementally over the course of the project. This, that project is not how you want to go about developing a trail, but it's at the time how we had to. So I hadn't designed all eight miles of the trail when I had it started being built. In fact, I was only a half mile out in front of the machine who started digging it. And sometimes he would catch up to me, and that's it so, so the remaining distance in the future that's still an unknown, can we even finish it? And that was very, very nerve wracking, ultimately making a very exciting project. Towards the end got to another area where the property line managed to Go straight, go straight Go straight and then literally right off a cliff and realize we can't we can't go that way when the trail and I looked up on my phone and got on the GIS and determined who owned that land and was a lady down in Charleston, South Carolina, called her up that evening, said, Hey, I'm your neighbor, same thing. I'm working on a project you could you could really help me but I'm not going to try to explain this to you over the phone. Can I meet with you in person? And I've got some maps to show you and Alison and I drove down to Charleston, South Carolina The next morning, and sat with her and her several adult children in their living room. And same thing went in there, not being able to take no for an answer.

No pressure,

right. And fortunately, these landowners also saw the value of what we were doing and wanted to be part of a really great, amazing thing. So many opportunities for that project to fall apart. And the biggest question Which is towards the end, we were six miles in at eight miles and then all 7300 acres of that project of the land through which the trail was traversing, burned down. And I mean that literally, the party rock forest fire of, I guess it was 16 November 2016. We had to evacuate the machine and the entire trail crew out of the woods and, and stopped trail building for several months. And then when we got back in Fortunately, the forest itself wasn't entirely destroyed. The fire was primarily a ground fire and it really only looked extremely severe. We're more familiar with all the pictures is when it got up on the cliffs and the fire is, you know, hundreds of feet high into the air. But the vast majority in the forest was primarily a couple feet high at the ground. So the landscape there which the trail traverse wasn't destroyed. And now a couple years later, actually It looks better than ever and wasn't prepared very much ecological, biological positive impact. But it took us a few months after that, too, we had a lot of burned trees that had fallen and some damage to the trail where all the ground cover had been burned off of the land. So we had a lot of unexpected erosion of suddenly water now rushing down the slopes, and there's no leaves and plants to kind of soak it up and disperse it. So that came towards the final third of the project. And all in all those various and that's actually just a small number of the obstacles are much more ones even more complicated than that. But that makes it a favorite of implementation because it it led to we ultimately got it done in a year's time and actually still on schedule where we were able to use the grant funding and had generous donors step in to contribute to that project and And gracious, neighboring landowners who worked with us. So that'll always be a favorite based on just the experience of of implementing it. And now I think it's becoming a really beloved trail, especially among the mountain bike community. And every time I'm out there, there's people coming from as far away as Charlotte and Columbia, South Carolina. And that's really rewarding to me because it means that people who aren't even already enjoying our region are seeking out like Lauren the hickory nut gorge to enjoy. So every trail and the hickory nut gorge and I think in my decade have been involved with probably close to 25 miles of developing new trails. Each one is my favorite for different reasons.

Well, that's a very diplomatic answer. Wait, weed patch is a pretty special trail and I've actually never done the whole thing. I've gone from one end to the other, you know, and kind of got toward the middle but one of these days I'm actually gonna manage the whole thing. And so you have for the, what, eight or nine miles. If you start from one end to the other, you kind of have to plan for that.

Oh, yeah, it's a challenge. Water is impossible to do it in both directions because then it's you're getting towards a 20 mile hike. Yeah, so

luckily, you've got parking on either end. And if for those people who are listening and haven't tried or been on that trail in the hickory nut gorge area, lake Lure area, I highly recommend doing either end and I'm sure the middle is going to be great when I finally get to the middle.And of course, I've enjoyed

middles The best part, by the way,

I'm going to search for it. I really am Peter. And then there's of course, Wildcat rock, which is another amazing trail that I've been on several times. And as you mentioned, the bear wallow trail and eventually those will all connect. Right,

right. And I'm very excitingly. Prior to my departure on this life adventure, I'm finishing up at conserving Carolina, three brand new trails, totally totaling almost eight miles and these are these will all be segments that tie into these existing trails and the hickory nut gorge. And one is called the Youngs Mountain Trail and that's down here near Lake. One that's going to be a favorite because I think it will be our most spectacular trail yet. It's about two miles that goes up to these breathtaking sheer cliffs, the tops of them and creates a really scenic vantage point where you're looking at the hickory nut gorge you're looking at the Chimney Rock, you're looking at weed patch mountain and the upper hickory nut gorge a little Pisco mountain you can even see the great crag ease and mount Mitchell in the black mountains looking in another direction so it's a smaller squatter mountain compared to stuff further up in the hickory nut gorge as a little kind of more removed from other mountains but it's it's vantage point is is everything instead of being in the middle and you have to look in different directions to see everything. This is kind of, it's almost like the grandstand of the hickory nut gorge because that's what's out in front of you. And then the two other trails, there's what I've been calling the bear wall connector trail and this will probably will work it in as part of an extension of the Wildcat rock trail that you mentioned. But this is going to connect the existing Wildcat rock trail which comes up from Girton to Wildcat rock and little bear wall mountain. It'll connect to the end of that to the top of bear wall mountain which we discussed earlier. And that's a two mile connector so you'll be able to hike if you wanted to one way all the way up bear wallow and down to little bearwallow to Wildcat rock and down the garden and really expands the connectivity and the recreational opportunities you have. And then lastly is the three mile strawberry gap trail and that will actually link highway 74 A which we just put in a new 20 car parking lot I just finished on Friday. So when you drive up highway 74, you you can't miss it because it's it's big. Oh, fantastic. And that will go up to really scenic peak called Ferguson peak that has a Great Western vantage point looking towards Asheville. And then it will go to the summit of Blue Ridge pastures, which is where from the other direction our transitory trail finishes. So 10 years ago, we talked about this upper hickory nut gorge trail vision where it would make a big loop connecting all of these conserved lands. And excited to say that it is primarily I'd say about 90% there'd be a small missing link that there's a private landowner who at this point isn't willing isn't interested in working with us. But so for what we can do for right now, this big Loop Trail, it'll be about 20 miles long in all these different segments made up of these different segments that we talked about, is about to be complete. So whether you want to do just one little segment Or you want to spend the whole day hiking from start to finish you soon you'll be able to do that.

You know, when we were out on bear wallow on Friday, Chris Braun mentioned his dream of having that kind of loop way back when he was the man at town manager of lake lure and it was like a theory in his mind. And when he talked about how things came together, between eventually he also was on the board of the Carolina mountain land Conservancy, right about the time you came on as well. And then you began to show the vision for what you could do. I literally got chills thinking about what happened has happened in the last 10 years and how things came together. And it just felt like it was one of those things that was meant to be and I get a certain feeling when things are supposed to be that way and I had it in spades on Friday. So it's very cool hearing about that.

I meant to tell Chris and hope he's listening, that I consider myself really, really fortunate. I have been I have Strive to implement a lot of others really good ideas. And Chris is is absolutely one of those visionaries who I think Chris, just without question. I think he in his mind saw all of this, like, in the end like he could envision it all being complete back when it was just an idea and there wasn't anything on the ground. And I'm proud to have been able to take his vision and credit him for, you know, if it weren't for Chris and some others vision, then then what would be like, it's I'm very lucky to have gotten to play a role in implementing it. It is

really interesting when you think about what it takes to create something amazing and how important having a really clear picture is, but then, also having the ability to get through the things that you don't know what's going to happen along the way to making that picture happen. And you can't have one with The other if you really want something big to happen, so that was a really cool moment. And he mentioned as well, your book, which I, we have to talk a little bit about because you've got a second edition coming out. So tell everybody about your book and what brought you to writing the book about the fire towers and what's coming out in April.

Sure. Well, so, when I was in college, I was studying to go into the healthcare profession I was I was on a track to become a physician and go to medical school and I began working on this program called the congressional award and it's actually the the highest civilian award you can get from Congress. And when you complete it, you literally get to go to the Capitol building, and your congressman gives you a gold medal. And it's, so it's called the congressional war and it's primarily a public service award, you have to do X number 100. have hours of public service but there's also other components to it like personal development and physical fitness that have a certain number of hours that you complete. For the personal development, it's oftentimes job shadowing. And this is for young Americans between 18 and 25 years old. So I was working on that in college, because I thought it would be this gold star or literal gold medal for a medical school application. And I during the personal development, I phase of it I shadowed a lot of physicians and spent a lot of time with them got to see some amazing things and babies being born and knees being repaired and tubes getting tied and every every every kind of interesting facet of the the medical world. All of those physicians, though, seem to spend kind of a disproportionate amount of time trying to talk me out of going into the medical career, which which kind of had an impact on me. At the same time, I was pursuing a different facet of that award and you had to actually take a minimum five day, five night expedition and it wasn't necessarily had to be backpacking on a trail. But But that was a component of essentially a wilderness expedition. What the award was going for is it wanted you to kind of self plan, self execute and have the courage to kind of do something big like that. And so I talked a friend into doing a journey, just a six day journey on the Appalachian Trail in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. And I we had no idea what we were doing or ran at all this army surplus gear from the college and we're just so wet behind the ears. It was I'm surprised we didn't get killed out there. To this day, it still remains maybe the most fun adventure that I've had because talk about overcoming obstacles and not being able to predict the future. That was That was it. Well, on the first day, I climbed up a peak. And I mean, halfway up, we were only two miles in and we were like this too hard. We can't do this. We've got a turnaround. But I was I was not yet addicted or enamored with the mountains enough. That wasn't why I kept going. I wanted that I wanted to complete the requirement for the award. But a few miles later, we got to the top of a summit called Chuck stack in the western part of the Great Smoky Mountain National Park and it had a old rickety, falling down fire tower in it on its summit. And we climbed it, and that was actually a particular that was, I would say, a life changing moment for me. I mean, quite literally the direction of my life changed at the top of that fire tower because I was looking at the broken windows of that lookout and looking at the mountains all around me looking where we just come up from. Were looking then at the mountains that we were going to climb and traverse over the next six days. And from that moment on, I was absolutely hooked. I knew then that I wanted to make these mountains a significant part of my life. I knew then that I would be back in that same spot on the Appalachian Trail on a much longer journey at some point in the future. And I knew that these mountains always would be deeply, deeply important to me. So philosophically that that tower had a big part in the direction, my life, but I also I was fascinated in the structure itself. And I thought, Oh, this is pretty neat. This, what is this? What is this for what's the purpose of this and did a little bit of reading found out there's these, oftentimes steel towers, but sometimes made out of stone, some of them built by the Civilian Conservation Corps in the early 20th century that were placed all over the mountains of western North Carolina, in fact, all over the nation, but especially in the mountains on these remote pointy peaks, and they were used quite literally to look For fires, and that's because of a small fire would start somewhere way out in the national forest or national park and if went undetected, it could turn into a forest fire of millions of acres and it could damage many, many, many natural resources, whether that be a national forest or national park or even Timberland. So there could be an economic impact of this of board feet of timber that we no longer could be cut and sold. At the same time, it could cause property damage and threaten people's homes and their lives. So the federal government and then state governments would install these lookout towers and position people in these towers in the early part of the 20th century, especially starting around the 1930s, and this actually continued through the 60s and for some agencies in the 70s and 80s. And there's even a fire tower and bare wall mountain that will move to us until the early 1990s. And I just I became really interested And enamored in the idea of the there were individuals who this was their job and what a lonely job that must have been. But kind of in a romantic way like this, this was their desk at work was out the window looking at these mountains, and they had the best view in the world. And they were doing a pretty selfless act because they're keeping the rest of us safe from from fire by being able to detect it early, or keeping safe and protecting the things that we held near and dear these mountains and the natural resources and the water around them. So I became really fascinated with lookout towers and those who worked in them, the views that you could have from them, the stories behind their building, the stories behind some of them have been taken down. And so I began seeking out more of them there. While there wasn't very much information about these but a lot of trails now in the national parks National Forest would still go to these, especially in the southern Appalachians. Where our mountains are typically forced that you hike to the top of a mountain. And most of the time around here, you don't get a view. But these towers, just from a hikers perspective, you could climb them and get a spectacular view. So there's a really great reward. When you're out there recreating and began collecting these towers figured out which ones were still there. We're not even begin like interviewing some of the people who lived in these towers just worked in these towers and lived sometimes in them or beside them out of personal interest and then started hearing these would come up in conversation, my fascination with them and started hearing the Oh, you should write a book about this and started kind of buying into that idea because I was so passionate about the topic and because there was no other information out there. So I began submitting proposals to publishers and publisher named john f. Blair, publisher out of Winston Salem as when I was a 20. four year old kid took a chance on me and decided to publish a young whippersnapper. And I, my book hiking North Carolina's lookout towers came out just a little bit later in 2008. And ultimately that is kind of what led me even into conservation at conserving Carolina. I wasn't hired as a trail builder because we weren't really doing trails back then. I was hired as a writer and as a researcher and as an oral interviewer. My first several years at the Conservancy, one of my jobs even though it would involve trails in another capacity was to interview different landowners and people find out their meaning that they attached to the land and write stories about those. So it was kind of a writer and storyteller, so it was very much thanks to the book. It had a direct segue into my career and conservation. A lot of people enjoyed that book. It certainly didn't make the New York Times bestseller because it was a kind of a niche topic. But I think, really helped to popularize lookout towers which ultimately led to I think the thing I'm most proud of that book it led to the securing the funding for and restoring about 12 of those towers. There were 26 in the book and since the first book, 12 of them have been restored there now they had a stunning, very beloved outdoor destinations. And so now it's been 12 years by the time it comes out, it will be 13 years have done I've written a second edition. And the amount of research and stories and history that I've acquired in the past 13 years is so much more significant. set out to write a second edition but the publishers are releasing it as an entirely new book. And my dear friend who's a really amazing photographer, he's considered the preeminent waterfall photographer of North Carolina and has his own book called North Carolina waterfalls, and we share a publisher. My dear friend, Kevin Adams has shot all the photography for the book. So they're releasing it as a new book called exploring North Carolina's lookout towers. It'll be back out, it'll be back, it'll be out in April of 2021. And this time, it'll be rather than just a little hiking book you put in your pack. It will be almost a coffee table esque book. It'll be all in color, all color photography and maps. And it's it's three times as long. So there's a lot of neat history, a lot of neat stories. And that's the part that I think I enjoyed the most about, about writing the book.

That's exciting. And you'll be back from your RV adventure in April to enjoy the publication and marketing of the book.

I will framing our adventure to be back in April so that I can help to do interviews and do promotions and presentations. I love talking about that topic and sharing it with others. And getting them excited about the book. So we'll be back for April for that book release, and then head back out in the RV in May for more adventures.

So I think we all know what our Christmas gifts for 2021 are going to be as this new, beautiful book to have on our coffee tables of exploring North Carolina's lookout towers. So and in the meantime, I just want to wish you the very best on this adventure. And I'm just so thrilled for you. And I'm going to selfishly say I hope you can stay in touch with all of us. But I also am going to say do what you need to do so that this does for you what it's for you and Allison, what it's intended to do, and just go have so much fun. Well, thank you, and I can't thank you enough for being here. Do you want to say any last things to our listeners any words of advice and also let people know how they can find you. If they want to find you on social media or you might just be going silent?

Yeah. Well, I probably have a whole lot more to say. Those who know me know that everything I've said so far, I'm just you got the short of it all. I know,

I know, we didn't have enough time to go with no, no. And we may have to do one of these on the road zoom set up, we can really do one of these and I would love to. I think my listeners and people who follow you would love to have us touch base after you've been out for a while and have some stories.

Yeah, I would love that. So we don't have the website or social media presence set up yet. But what I can tell you is that once once we do I can share it with you in perhaps on your your Facebook, your website can share it and say those who listen to this podcast can can can follow along on this journey. And the book itself will eventually this isn't set up either but the book itself will have a website landing spot where it's going to have all the maps for the towers and hikers. Right at NC lookouts, calm, so don't go there yet. You could go there. It's set up. It's 13 years old and all about the the former book, right. But that'll be a location and I'm sure I'll have crossover links between there. So that's one place where I can be found

and a lot of the trails we've talked about can be found on conserving Carolina's website. So how to find those trails for people who are listening, and may not have ever heard of them. They can go to conservingcarolina.org

Yes, conservingcarolina.org and specifically in the menu right at the top of the screen. If you go to the get outside section, you put your mouse over that and it'll be a drop down menu for every single one of the trails we've talked about. Including soon all of the new trails will be popping up on there as well and you'll get hiking directions you'll get background of what's special about the land, why we protected it, some specifics of where the trail goes, and also downloadable maps that you can either print out or have on your phone.

That is fantastic. And one of the things I've always said living in lake lure or you know, like law is like a big x, like a cross. And if you go sit in the middle of lake lure we did this from we used to do the boat gatherings and look to the west and look to the north, you're looking at a lot of beautiful mountains with no houses on them. No ugliness anywhere. And a lot of that is thanks to conserving Carolina and to the work you've done. And for anybody who doesn't appreciate that or is in a lake or area, go find a way to get in the middle of that lake and look around at those peaks and understand just what it's taken. Not in terms of just blood, sweat and tears, but financing of people's generous donations. We haven't named a lot of your generous donors, but we know who they are and they know who they are, to help make a lot of this possible. And so thank you for the passion you've given to this area and I can't wait to hear how you take that passion out into the world. Peter,

thank you and thank you to everyone One, I'm very conscious that everything you know, I've been fortunate enough to contribute to conserving Carolina is all part of a team effort. So protecting those mountains creating these trails. Thank you, Lynn, for your leadership at conserving Carolina. And a big thanks to all the donors, all the staff. It's a it's a massive kind of community and regional effort. And that was, my heart is touched up and a part of it.

It's a magnificent organization for anybody in the hickory nut gorge. If you're not familiar with it, find a way to get familiar and you know, they need donations, they need volunteers, and they need passion. And I'm really guessing that you sparked the passion and a lot of people from this conversation. So thank you.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations and I wanted to share that Kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.