#6 Tammy Tappan Equestrian Artist: Take The Leap and Figure It Out on the Way Down

spk_0:   0:02
welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now here's your host, Lynn Kearns.

Lynn:   0:20
Hello and welcome to the Creative spirits English podcast. This is Lin Cards, your host. Today I am bringing to you an interview I did with Tammy Tappan. She's known as an equestrian artiste and also a brilliant marketer and business person. Tammy and I'm mad at the International Art, the Tryon International Equestrian Center, which is just right down the road from us, and I can't remember how many years ago it was, but it wasn't that many, maybe two or three. It was the Kentucky Derby week where everybody was supposed to wear hats, not something I particularly liked to do, which we talk about in this conversation. But what really struck me was I walked into her store and just was stopped in my tracks by a beautiful painting of a horse on the wall. And here is an artist who's only been at it for a few years like three, and most people who are beginning artists are barely putting their work out there. They are, you know, maybe putting up a tent at an art show, and Tammy bet so much on herself that she actually pot space at the Tryon International Equestrian Center to show her are in a very professional store. We talk a little bit about how that came to be in the kind of chances that she took to get herself there. It's interesting because what Tammy did was was, as she bet on herself, something that's hard for all of us to do. She learned how to overcome the failures that are natural, going with art and, frankly, with all of our businesses. So we talk and unpack a lot about how you recover from mistakes, how you deal with failure, how you get over the fear of failure. To actually think big and do really pretty darn amazing things. I do hope that you will take the time after you listen to this or maybe before, to go to her instagram, which you will find in the show notes. But it's Tammy Tappan art at Instagram and on Facebook. And if you also go to, um, TammyTappanart.com, you will see the quality of her work both in bronze and in painting. But you're also going to hear a very savvy businesswoman as you listen to this conversation. So I hope you'll take the time to do that. Also, please share this with your friends. It's an exciting interview for me. Especially in this time. Where ah lot of us maybe at home, trying to trying our own handed art and what my message would be for you there is taken note from Tammy's notebook and just go for it. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Tammy, Welcome to the podcast.

Tammy:   3:11
Hey Lynn. Good to be here.

Lynn:   3:12
I'm really glad you're here. And thanks for coming to the alternate building.

Tammy:   3:16
You know, any day out here in Lake Lure is a good day. I know it's a beautiful day. We were just for those of you listening, we were just discussing how beautiful it is and that we have scheduled this. We thought it was gonna be a winter day. We scheduled this a couple of months ago, right? And we could be riding horses today

Tammy:   3:32
in the 64 degree sunshine, the 62 city of sunshine.  

Lynn:   3:35
So for those of you who are about to take a lot away from this conversation realized  a sacrifice was made way would have loved to have been out in the wilderness with the horses. But here we are. And so I'm so glad you're here.

Tammy:   3:49
Thank you.  

Lynn:   3:50
So those who are listening will have heard the introduction and know a little bit about you. But what I want to start with because you come from a lot of different angles One of the you and I connected I am. I will have this in the introduction. I'm sure, but I always do that after in case people are wondering what I'm saying. I'm gonna have it in the introduction. And you just heard it. But Tammy and I met at the tryon  equestrian Center. I'm an artist and it was the it was the Kentucky Derby Hat day. I don't know if you remember this,

Tammy:   4:22
I couldn't have pinpointed it.  

Lynn:   4:25
I was somewhat self conscious when I met you. I'll tell you, because I had a cowboy hat on. And because for the Kentucky Derby Hat Day, where most women can wear the big, I can wear the fancy hats and so forth, it's not possible With Me So since hats for the appropriate attire, I'm like, Well, I look damn good in a cowboy hat. So that's what I'm gonna wear.

Tammy:   4:46
That's funny, because my now that you bring that up and I don't probably didn't mention it at the time I was wearing something that I bought at the dollar store. It was black. And and because it didn't have any decorations on it, I had found a big, ugly white flower in, you know, stuck it to side . Oh, that's funny. And that was your fancy. Yeah, it was. I think I spent all of $4. I and I'm pretty sure I didn't look good in it. Yeah.

Lynn:   5:10
And isn't it interesting what social pressure does, right? We're women. That social pressure that we have to wear on Kentucky.  We're at the horse part. Not at Kentucky, but Tryon Equestrian center on Kentucky Derby day. And we had to wear hat. Yes. So we're already diverting into those kind of things that get us out of balance. But anyway, I was sitting there being very self conscious talking to you. Go. And I hope she doesn't think my hat looks stupid. But what, But I got over that very quickly because when I walked into your studio, it took my breath away. And one of the paintings that you had hanging was one of the huge paintings you did with the horse. Sort of. You're looking at him almost like his hind quarters, like a 3/4 view. And he's turning around and looking at you. Yeah, Now see I can still remember that.

Tammy:   5:55
That was the first painting I ever sold there to be honest with you. And what was that

Lynn:   5:59
like? It was like a five foot by six foot painting or something like it was pretty good size,. It might have been four by four. But you had laid out that shop so beautifully, and it kind of like I said, took my breath away. And then I met you and my friends that were outside, later were like, we didn't think you were ever gonna gather. They had to come back and get it because you and I connected so quickly because we're both,  I don't know what you call ourselves. Recovering corporate people. I mean, we both

Tammy:   6:26
I don't know that I'll ever recover from it, but it's still

Lynn:   6:30
work in the corporate world. But we're also artists and right, you know, we ride horses, and

Tammy:   6:35
we've made a transition.

Lynn:   6:36
We have definitely made additions. So with that little bit of background now that, talked about my cowboy hat, tell me a little bit about that transition. And how did the Tammy tappen that I know now get to be the Tammy tappen that you are? Well,

Tammy:   6:53
we only have an hour, right? So you just take all the time you need. Oh, that's funny. Well, it's a long and twisted story. And if you looked headed on a map and started connecting the dots, it would look like a ball of yarn that somebody wadded up in their hands and then stepped on. Yeah, there's no direct path.  

Lynn:   7:16
I don't think they're ever is.  

Tammy:   7:17
No I'd look back, and I think about things that I became aware of or experience back in the early nineties and even early two thousands and how they apply to where I'm at today. It's like you picked up pieces along the way that got you to where you are. That, that's how I can, when I look at look at it from a big picture Stand point, but specifically how I got from a corporate world to the art world that I now live in.  because I I went through a merges and acquisitions process with a company that I was involved with, and the deal did not go the way I expected it to. And so So you were working for the company? I was an owner in the company. Okay. You were an owner. Okay? Yeah. And I got out Voted on the decision as to what to do with it in the acquisition. And like any mature adult, I stomped out of the room, took my bat and ball, wrote my resignation, send it off in an email to my ex husband and got in an RV and drove away for a while. So so, you know, very mature. Well, that's how I got here. May be cathartic too, you know. Yeah. Yeah, and that was probably way too much information. But now that all seriousness, we ah, was involved. I've been involved in manufacturing in for the last 35 years, I would say, and, the last business I was involved in. We had an acquisition on the table and the shareholders voted against selling, and I was exhausted.  I was wearing too many hats. I was in charge of all the sales and marketing. I was overseeing finance. I was overseeing, you know, graphic design and any other thing from janitorial responsibilities to  payroll that came up, which is just what happens when you're in a small business. Yes.  you just you know, and I was hired and I had just completed and feed It sounds like a marathon. My Children had just kind of aged into adulthood. And so the challenge of parenting and working simultaneously, I think I was just burned out And I was looking forward to the next chapter when the decision was made that they were not going to sell the company. And I just kind of hit a wall when I said, I'm I'm not going to do this anymore. And so I think is the first time I've ever literally resigned from something that I have built and walked away without a plan. And there was a recovery period and that recovery period for me meant I bought a,it is a salvage title RV for $12,000. And let me tell you for $12,000 what you get. Yeah, you get something that you can live in as long as it never rains.  and so that's what I did. I threw my dog in it, and I drove out west, cause it's drier. Out got assigned, you had to go. So it was a very good plan, So I drove out there and I was sitting at the desk and and I Googled equestrian sculpture, and there was a reason for it. You know, it always been an equestrian person. At the time, I didn't have any horses, and flash back when I was 18 years old, I went to art school and dropped out. And so, you know, when you're sitting there in the all the options are in front of you. You put those two things together and lo and behold A thing popped up in Google, said equestrian sculpture workshop five days in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I thought I could do that, and I'm out west already, and I know Well, I think I was in Texas at the time, headed that direction So I literally signed up for the class and drove out there. And ah, it was it was funny that there were six people in the class. I had never touched clay before in my life. And the gentleman that taught the class who's now a very good friend of mine. He opens every class with a couple of questions. His first was, Why are you here and what do you want to get out of the class? And the second was, How much experience do you have? And the third question was, Who is your favorite sculptor? And I remember just going Oh, my God, I'm not prepared for this. I didn't know there was gonna be a pop quiz, and I like and I don't like that look stupid. So now I'm you know, I'm only gonna But at least I'm not first, so you know, it's somebody got around to me, you know? First of all, my experience level is I've never touched clay in my life. Secondly, I don't have a master plan. I have no idea what I want to get out of this. I just needed something to do with myself. And the third, I literally could not come up with a sculptor. Its name, you know, I just had seen work, but I'd never studied it to that point. So I failed at it, like right out the gate.  Day one, I failed the class how was this even possible., So anyway, I did. I took a five day workshop and fell in love with the class. And it was just with the medium. You know, I think people look at it so back up. You know, now I am an artist. Oh, my, I am a sculptor.

Lynn:   13:11
And if you haven't by the way, is your listening looked at the pictures that will be part of the show Notes for this to see some of Tammy's work. Get ready because you will not believe that she didn't touch clay before this because it wasn't that. What? How many years ago was this?  

Tammy:   13:27
It'll be three years in March.  

Lynn:   13:28
Okay, So three years,  

Tammy:   13:31
almost three years now.  

Lynn:   13:32
If somebody was to look at your work, they would think it's 30 years trying to

Tammy:   13:35
get a lot of that, and it's It's funny. It's with the clay, it's almost like it comes through your hands like I don't know how to explain it, but it's like you're channeling the idea. Like when I'm sculpting a horse, I literally in my mind feel like I'm standing there touching a horse in real life. And so I intuitively kind of know where those things are. But that comes from a background of, you know, 40 plus years of having horses in my life, right, grooming and doing those type of things. So, yeah, you know, if you ask me to sculpt a cow, it might not be so correct, so Well,

Lynn:   14:14
it's interesting because there's so many threads I want to follow from this, but the the channeling I get because I'm a clay artist myself, you're working in oil clay. That becomes bronzes. I'm working in wet clay that's on, you know, the wheel right? But I have learned that walking that fine line of letting something sort of tell me what it wants to be, but at the same time having an intention for it because with Clay, you can't let it really tell you what it wants to be. But you can't totally not listen. At the same time, It's a combination of All right,

Tammy:   14:50
well, and I paint to that everything that I started again. And I think that the paint has a little bit more of its own mind, especially in the techniques that I'm using. But I think the thing that I find nice about working in the the oil based clay is that you never make a mistake literally, because the clay doesn't dry out. I can put it on. I can walk away, it come back. And I could look at it. I go. I don't like that. I take it off. There are no consequences. You don't have to throw anything away unless you take it on or off. . Yeah. Scottsdale. Yeah, That would be a problem called to start all over again, but I think that one of the things that I've learned in the last couple of years is the use of coming from a corporate mindset , it's about goals and you know how many did you get done? What did you sell? How well did you use your time? You know, And so the last two years, I've been very corporate minded about my art career. You know, I moved to this area so that I could be at the equestrian center here and tryon. I spent a lot of time working on a body of work that didn't exist when I started in preparation for the World Games in 2018. So I had a task list. You know, I'm of I'm a list maker box checker. Yeah, two  like that. All the corporate training as it has its benefits. But one of the things that I have become aware of at the end of this year is that mindset of feeling like every minute has to be productive or what? You know, people always want What what are you doing today? What are you doing this week? What are your plans for? You know, And so I'm so used to filling in those answers with some kind of corporate goal that's either tied to something tangible that you see or most often return on investment.  that I look back at some of the work I've done the last couple of years, and I'm not happy with it, and it's because I was more concerned about deadlines and productivity than I was about what was really going on with the artwork. And so my goal for myself this year is to take a step back from overproducing and be more mindful of the process. and I'm learning this from some of the people I'm mentoring with. You know, they have 8 10 pieces working at this all simultaneously, and they'll put things on this shelf when they get stuck and walk away from them sculptures in particular, and come back to it three months, six months or whatever when it hits. But there is no timeline that says I have to have eight pieces completed this year. There's nobody standing over you with a stick, you know, saying this is how it has to be done.  and so for me, getting rid of the voices that I hear in my head has been a big. It's a work in process.

Lynn:   18:07
It's interesting cause as soon as you said you don't have anybody standing over you, I thought about how many conversations I've been in with people, and I've experienced this myself where it is as if I have somebody standing over me. It's like I'm answering to that productivity devil in my head that saying How well did you use your time and you know what's next? And that's a mistake. And

Tammy:   18:30
I just read your book. Oh, the delicate artists, you know. And one of the things that struck me was that that there was, oh, I can't I'm trying to remember that particular excerpt of it. But yeah, it was about that productivity and, oh, not being able to watch somebody else work. It's like you're not done till everybody's done right. That was like, That's a rule for some people that it was an upbringing. It wasn't that Our rules come from

Lynn:   18:59
right. Like that's our upbringing When Dad's working, everybody, everybody's working. Yes, handing tools you have to, you know, whatever. Nobody's resting until everybody.  

Tammy:   19:09
That was a very familiar story for me. I was like, Yeah, 51 years old, still trying to break that.  

Lynn:   19:16
That was one of the biggest transformations of my marriage because I didn't realize that my husband didn't have that rule. All right, everybody has that rule, right? I thought, Well, of course, that's just the way the world is Was that, uh, it almost like we wouldn't be sitting here today. We would not have bought the house with lake, none of that would have happened if I hadn't sort of accidentally fallen into the question of saying, Why does it matter to you so much? And what mattered to him and what matter to me? We hadn't reconciled,? Because when I said to him, it's very important to me that I have my I called my hammock time even though I don't sit in a hammock anymore cause I fall out of them too easy. But I need my like sitting, reading, looking at beauty downtime. And you're I said, you're always working, but I will neve rest  

Tammy:   20:03
well and I don't know about you, but for me, I'm never really just sitting, looking, doing nothing for me. A lot of the creed of things happen when it looks like I'm doing nothing. This is so true. I back to the motor home. I drove that motor home across this country twice and then decided that the leaking was second city. Unacceptable, literally was like driving a spaghetti strainer. It leaked in every possible way. And so I I got rid of that and upgraded the RV and have driven back and forth now three additional times. It's extremely productive for me. I listen to books on tape, but more often than not, I paint or I sculpt an entire project in my head before I ever touch either paper or clay. It's like I've worked out the problems. I understand the composition. So then it's just like when you hit print on a printer. It just comes out. So a lot of people who have seen me work they'll go well, how do you do that? It only took you like, two days or three days. No, it took me three months because I have dreamt about it. I have thought about it when I walked my dogs. I've thought about it when I was driving around the country, you know. So it's a creative process, is very solitary and mental

Lynn:   21:28
very much. I I haven't had the exact same experiences you were talking. I was thinking, Oh yes, yes, yes, that happens to me. It is walking. It's walking this land. My drive time is precious to me. I get a lot done with the right thing on the drive time personally for me, when I ended my radio subscription of just putting on whatever music they wanted to play or whatever talk radio they're going to put on and I started either choosing silence or what I put on the car, it completely changed my experience of being in a long road trip. Like what you're describing, right? Because I don't need to be reading my mind out to other people, right? You know, Right

Tammy:   22:06
well, and I stopped watching,  regularly broadcast television two years ago. Not it wasn't like a conscious decision. It was I moved over to this side of town and I rented a place that there wasn't cable and I didn't feel like going through the hassle or the expense. And then I just got used to it. And it's been two years, so you don't need it. I don't need it. I, you know occasionally. Ah ho, flip on. I think we have was at Rocque who, you know, flip on, watching Netflix movie or something like that. But to your point, it's very intentional, You know, if I don't, I'm not big into the violence things. And I don't need to know 15 more ways to murder people, like just literally, all. I think they play anywhere. You So Yeah, I just don't Yeah, well, it's interesting,

Lynn:   23:00
because exactly about this whole idea of, like doing nothing is almost never doing nothing right.  and I think about the process of sleep, which, really, for a lot of people can seem like a waste of time if they're a busy person. And I think like I had a client, I was on the phone with this morning and she said, What is the most important thing I could do? I'm going into the year tired and she said, What's the most important thing I could do to recover my energy? And I said, I'd like to be really innovative and tell you something super fancy, but sleep right like you have to value your sleep

Tammy:   23:32
Well, I hit. I can tell you to sleep is huge. But I for me and you know it's an age thing. My my entire system was out of balance. My hormones were out of balance. My eating habits were out of balance. My exercise was out of balance. And so I would say, three years ago, I would go to bed and sleep 12 hours and wake up tired. Oh, and you know, and that was right around the time of the transition. And, yeah, you're mentally tired and you're physically exhausted and then your body isn't functioning properly, you know? So I I actually sought out more of a holistic physician and got that kind of straightened around, so I just I sleep better. And, you know, I tried to cut some of the sugar out of the diet. Yeah, I you know, I'm not perfect about it, but I'm better than I was. So I think that's

Lynn:   24:26
all any of us can have. It's interesting. Especially think about artists Not perfect, right? We we start with that picture in our mind. We have sculpted the the thing or built the thing or painted the thing ahead of time. It never comes out.

Tammy:   24:42
Oh, there isn't a piece that I have that I couldn't pick apart for you. and I've had to like a set of the mentors that I've worked with. You know, they stopped me and they said, you know, don't don't tell everybody what you think is wrong with it. Yeah, because you're the only one that sees it. They don't They don't necessarily believe that. That's wrong. Oh, yeah? Well, that's hard. It's a the perfectionist  thing is

Lynn:   25:07
that perfectionist thing. That way we beat ourselves up when things aren't the way we want them. All right, that we explain. You know, in fact, as we're sitting here, I'm were in one of our cabins here, Mystic Waters and three of my early paintings are on the wall and there's one over your shoulder. That's one of my early early paintings  And she's having to turn around and look at it. And at the time I did it, it's a picture of aspens, and that's snow, and it's it's I could see the elementary part of it. Now I can see the young artist I was then . So just as we're talking, it's hard for me not to think about. Okay, here's how I'd redo that painting, and I did. But to do it in a way that's not like, um, beating myself up. But more like understanding the nuances that I

Tammy:   25:51
could say. It's a new It's a new painting then

Lynn:   25:54
and then it's It's a new painting.

Tammy:   25:56
It's a new paint

Lynn:   25:56
and actually this one over the shoulder, the desert one that has actually reworked. So if you saw it before, you remember that and I reworked that one where I was willing to hang it because once again I started understanding things that needed to satisfy me in a painting. But I think about like almost everybody I work with, if not like the the teams, everybody. There's that perfectionistic streak. , And it's weird because, like in our corporate lives, tell me if you saw this all right. Innovation is necessary in today's environment We need to be. A lot of people say I need to be more creative. I need to come up with better solutions for my problems always don't work anymore. I'm thinking of one particular organization I've worked with. That used to be pretty up there with their website. But as time has gone by, you know, simple websites that super duper easy phone APS You know, Airbnb. Things like that have made life so easy, right? If their website hasn't kept up and now what looked used to be state of the art is very clunky and maddening, right? So those people are they know they have to have those challenge.  

Tammy:   27:09
I think there should be a whole new job title in corporate America.  that it every probably the least popular person on a team. And that person would be the person who points out things that are coming or changing. It's like, you know the harbinger. Yeah, guess what. I have bad news. Nothing we're doing today is gonna work next year. So you know, and let's go get ahead of it. Yes, and I you know, I can feel the daggers now because having 30 years in that business, it's I think that's how we survived was I love change. That is, Yeah, I'm like a change junkie. It's Yeah, it's like I get bored really easily. And so, so I'm always looking for Let's do it differently. Let you and but there and I do recognize that when you're a person that has that a vision like them, that my downfall or our downfall in that role is that we also don't have the patients to see it through to build that vision, right? Right. So it takes a very special to drive me crazy like I don't It doesn't matter, because in my mind I've already built it, and I've moved on to something else. Meanwhile, my sister was a partner, and she is like the polar opposite of me. When it comes to, corporate, she's risk adverse, and she's methodical and she's detail oriented. So and I'm the older of the two sisters, you know? So it's like I'm the leader and had got this great idea. Follow me. And so she would say now, Oh, yeah, I've spent my whole life going around, you know, cleaning up your mess or, you know, following your directions or orders. Meanwhile, you're off doing the next thing. And I was like, Yeah, but if I didn't do the next thing we did would have starved to death, just continually dank, stagnant. Yeah, that's like the moved my cheese. That's my favorite  book.  

Lynn:   29:18
And, you know, we just, interviewed Steve Snyder, who talked about in defense of management and the difference between management leadership and this is exactly his point is you can have your visionary leaders all day long, but somebody actually does have to bring into the world was coming from the military standpoint in this way. But somebody does have to bring the boots on the ground and they have to feed those troops and they have to house those troops. And somebody has to manage all that right And the like. You're saying we do need both, we need those people. But this idea of innovation in context of also having an expectation  for perfection, I think is one of the worst things we do to people in the corporate world. Yeah, because you put people in a vise and like I think the reason people hate seeing change agents. And I put myself in that category as well. I've had the daggers, but I think the reason that hate us is that they're already treading water. Where I was treading water and changing things right, I'm barely barely gulping a little sniff of air a times

Tammy:   30:18
gonna add to mind about

Lynn:   30:20
toe like pull whatever I'm holding on my bottom of my feet out from under me. And now I really can't make it right. As opposed to helping people understand so much of that treading water, I believe it's self inflicted. Now that I look back on my ways, my rules, you know, the rule that I had with my husband of Well, as long as he's working, I have to work. I think about how many times of opportunity I didn't rest because I was too busy working because I was following a rule that he didn't. He was all self inflicted. Is all in my head. There you go,

Tammy:   30:51
every every last bit of it, because I way we've had this conversation before. It's like every day and with every moment, every day we have a choice. Yeah, you know, to change it, to keep doing the same thing. Whatever. And it's like I think we forget that we have the choice. So it is self inflicted. So at any minute, I could get off this crazy hamster wheel. Yeah, just staying there. What's the rest of you? Run around, which is what I feel like I've done. I'm like, Look at that. No, I don't want to go back there. I think that's

Lynn:   31:24
why you and I, like, connected so well that first night when I saw your art because it was like you actually made that leap. It's like

Tammy:   31:30
you're scared because you said you were still talking corporate. I was like, Well, I don't want it sucked back in. I got a way for her. I

Lynn:   31:39
think even at that time, I probably was still talking more corporate even than I am now. I continue. Not that I'm not still working deeply in corporate in, you know, with my clients and so forth. But I feel like the thing I'm always doing is, and I don't even always talk about it this way. But it's like there's this imaginary wall that on the other side of the wall, which you can't see from because of your fear on the other side of that wall is actually this freedom that we're talking about, that I don't have to do that.

Tammy:   32:07
Well, I think I have actually made it over the wall. I do too. Yeah, I'm I I because I and I think it was I think it wasn't a conscious like, Oh, I'm gonna walk over on the side of that wall. I think I was literally standing on the wall and somebody pushed me over? Yes. And then in the freefall, I decided, Well, I don't really want to hit the ground. So I had to start flapping my wings just and you flew. Yeah, I knew it was dying, and I'm not. I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is pretty good. I actually like it well, and I think

Lynn:   32:38
the big thing we discover, especially in art like, I had a big moment in an r in a painting class because I was gonna My goal was no green in a landscape. now, as a beginning artist, that's really hard to do because you're looking around the landscape in their name, things green, lots of different greens. And it's hard to make green and all that. And I got into it and I started doing okay. But about 3/4 of the way through, I look down. I was like, There's green everywhere. So I just threw this thing away and put it in the trash can.  And it was a humongous moment because I didn't beat myself up. One of my artist friends was horrified. I mean, this is watercolor paper. You don't like paint over it, You just It's just it's just paintin paper. You're putting it in the trash can. But she was horrified and I said, That's it. It's just painting paper. I said it didn't do what I wanted to do something to start over again. Because if I put blue and yellow side by side with a wet medium, I'm gonna get ultimately, you're going to get going. I don't want to know what I'm gonna try something different, but that whole idea of like letting go of those mistakes and realizing Here's the thing I could have imagined that putting that piece of paper in the trash can would have killed me like I would not have been able to face myself in the mirror because the failure was so huge. Failure? Yeah, and that when I had released that and said It's just painting paper, it was an experiment. It changed everything for me

Tammy:   34:00
I remember because at three years ago I had never sold a piece of my own art. Really? Wow I had. And so I, after being pushed over the wall and then deciding because, of course, you know, I'm still thinking with that corporate brain Well I know I can sculpt, and I know I can paint. Now I gotta figure out if I could make a living at it. So go right back to the corporate mindset. Well, what are you going to do? You're in position yourself in a place where, you know, you might have customers. So, you know, of course, I I'm doing equestrian art, so I picked an equestrian venue. Good choice. Ding dang, right? It's really not that complicated when you think about it. But what you do have to do is you have to be willing to change your whole life. And so, you know, move here and adjust to that. So, uh and and it was expensive. It was like, I don't know if you need to know, but it was, like, $3000 a month to rent a space. Yeah, which

Lynn:   35:02
very few people sell $3000

Tammy:   35:05
a profit margin. Well, so I had calculated in my mind that I could last four months and then I was, if I didn't sell it, sell anything, I would need a new plan. So I didn't sign a long term lease when I first started and then the 1st 3 weeks I didn't hadn't been doing it long enough to have a body of work. So you had three or four pieces of bronze, and I literally pillaged things from my house from from my family's homes that I had painted and I, you know, kind of filled in the space and and did a beautiful job of merchandising. Well, thank you, but there wasn't very much there for sale. There was a lot of things that we're just like space holders for work. I was going to do and , So when you don't have that much work and and and you don't know what you're doing And then three weeks went by and hadn't sold a single thing and I can remember going Oh, my God. I've made a huge mistake, huh? This is a huge mistake. I you know, And then all those self doubt things creep it. Oh, my gosh. Three in the morning. Oh, yeah, Yeah. You're not that good. Maybe you don't. You know, nobody likes that. Maybe I'm priced too high. Maybe I'm price too low. Maybe I like on and on. Maybe I wore the wrong color. You know, eye shadow today. Whatever. I shouldn't have let

Lynn:   36:21
that person walk out. They almost bought.

Tammy:   36:23
Oh, it just on and on. So, you know, and three weeks in and we're coming in. This was 2018 and so they were They were doing the test events for the World Games. I remember, And this gentleman walked in and he walked through the studio, and I, of course, approach him. Hi. How are you? You don't like to see me if I can have you anything. And he turned around and he held up one finger to me, didn't say a word and then walked away. And I was like, I didn't go Well, that's like Then he walked out the door would be like

Lynn:   36:55
a dad saying to their kid, Do not

Tammy:   36:57
do not be to me, right. Well,

Lynn:   36:59
pointy finger. Yeah, that's interesting.

Tammy:   37:01
Then he came back a second time that day. And of course, you know, I I'm a fairly quick study. I didn't say anything. This'll isn't nothing. You walk through this place and he went away and I was like, Okay, that's just weird. I don't even know how to You know Gage that. And you know, he was from Kuwait. I Yeah, Yeah. Is where and so, no. I said he was from Oman. Okay. From the country of my mind and and Ah, I didn't know it, but on his jacket it said something on the way out. So of course you know, I did. I I know you're not no where it was. So I looked it up, and it's next to Kuwait. I'm so glad I I'm not the only one. So like, OhMan and I didn't even Is that a country? , so yes, so I looked up with So he comes back 1/3 time and he has an entire entourage with him. Oh, my gosh. And what? I didn't realize this. He didn't speak English or didn't speak it well. And he was, he was the general of the Oman Army and the Royal Cavalry s. So, you know, talk about awkward moments. So he bought three pieces of bronze from me, which was huge. It was believed it was the thing that, it was all those voices in your head. Yeah, went silent. So tell me,

Lynn:   38:27
because this is a great story embarrassing, but there's not a person listening that had had not had a moment where some form of silence happened. Yep. And then the voices start. Oh, gosh. Like so what? Tell me what you were feeling. Tell me what you were thinking. Be a specific as you can. Like,

Tammy:   38:49
I was What I was feeling was I had made a huge mistake, and and immediately I went into, , survival mode of Okay, if this doesn't work, and I started making a mental list. I remember of all the things I'm capable of doing, I can draw, you know, I I I can sell. You know, I can make spreadsheets, you know? Yeah. I could build websites that, you know, I can get a job. I know I can get a job somewhere if this doesn't work out. You know what it's like all that earning power. Right? So Okay. Am I too old to do this? Maybe not. No, probably not. You know, eso just all those things go through your head and, and then not having a lot of experience outside of the United States. There was such an interesting, situation because we had 70 different countries competing in those games. So on any given day, we could have somebody from Sweden walk in and somebody from New Zealand and you know, so culturally there are different, you know, rules of engagement and how you conduct yourself. And so you know, I didn't know eso Then. You feel families? I feel stupid. I was like, I don't know.  

Lynn:   40:10
I felt stupid, right? And maybe ignorant. Right of the customs, right? I didn't know what I was supposed to say, right? Isn't that interesting how we jump right there as opposed to, huh? I wonder why he did that, right? I would love to be able to just say how curious as opposed to Well, what I do

Tammy:   40:27
know, but t doubt mode. So first, you know, the first thing you do is think about all the things that you don't know when you know so well

Lynn:   40:36
and and self doubt mode, I think isn't that kind of close to survival mode, right?

Tammy:   40:42
I think self doubt mode is like the precursor to survive alone. It's like, because I think when push comes to shove one of the things that you'd ask this on him, uh, social media thing. What is your What is your best attributes? And mine is Well, when I fall on my face, I have the ability to pick myself up, dust myself off and get on with it. That resilience is I just Yeah, I like. Okay, that didn't work, you know? And I can remember it about 12 years old, a very specific incident that when that clicked in for me and it's my parents had gone through a divorce and, you know, there was a lot of trauma and all that goes on. And I can remember thinking, if I can just get through this part, I'll be fine. And and it was like this this, um this understanding that all of those things have like a shelf life, and all you have to do is get through it. It's like things too shall pass. And I know that it 12. I didn't have the right words for it, but you knew the company was in. And I think that today that's that's probably my strongest believe system. A cycle? Yeah, it might be really bad today, but it's gonna be less horrible tomorrow and the next day, it'll be OK. It'll be a little bit better, you know? So  

Lynn:   42:09
you know, it's interesting because you're describing what a lot of people would call trauma through the divorce of your parents of things going poorly when you're a child and I think it like highlights. A lot of people would say, Well, I'd be okay if it wasn't for my parents divorced or I would be okay if this bad thing hadn't happened to me. Well, the bad thing happened to you, and it actually made you stronger. Made you who you are.

Tammy:   42:30
Oh, yeah. I have a long list of those things where, like, I don't want to relive them. Yeah, but I wouldn't trade them in because It is like, I feel like I'm really on solid ground. It's like, Yeah, I know that I can survive pretty much anything. Then I'll be fine, you know?  

Lynn:   42:51
And that shows up in your work. I think it shows up in your art. I think it shows up in your approach to the kind of risks you take to produce work that a guy from Oman would buy three off 

Tammy:   43:02
I know. How fun is that right, right. That's not bad for your first sale. That's a really good start. Out strong,  

Lynn:   43:08
just in case Shell had never bought a bronze. Bronze aren't $10 each. I can

Tammy:   43:11
tell them they covered my four months. How's that? It's also

Lynn:   43:15
say this. You have a tremendous cost in every bronze. You do as well. Well, Make Bronze without putting some bronze in it. And you have to pay for that.

Tammy:   43:22
You know my dad, he's Ah, you don't know my dad, but I know my dad. My dad is an extremely conservative person. I love him dearly.  if you ever need somebody in your life and you pick up the phone, count on he's that guy. But he's also extremely risk adverse. So I'm one of three girls and I'm the one that doesn't follow the program. And so every time I do something that's risk related , I hear his voice in my head as I know about that she's  

Lynn:   43:52
and it's not even him. It's the voice that you made up for him, right? I learned this from Miles. Okay, I believe Dad in my head because sometimes I tested me to be like, Well, that's not what I was saying. He would say

Tammy:   44:03
it is. I called the Chuck filter and good. Yeah. So and I had I managed to put together some money, and when I decided to do this to your point, bronze is an expensive thing to get into, but your mold costs are expensive, and every time you poor piece, you know, thousands of dollars. So it's so what? I actually went to my dad and I said, Okay, dad, I've got this money. I've set it aside, and this is what I think I'm going to do. I'm going to dive in and I'm going to produce a many pieces as I can, and, you know, and I explained to him how the cost at, you know, you advertise the mold crossover, the pieces and that Yeah, this is the way this business goes. And he, of course, tried to talk me out of it. And ah, starving artist mentality. You absolutely. Are you sure you could make you any I understand comes from concern. You know, every parent wants their kid to be okay, and it's like, can you do this? And so I did it anyway. and and he was like, Why? I don't think you should. But and But I looked at it and thought I could put the money in the bank and earn whatever that minuscule amount is that they pay you, you or I can bet on myself. That's the way I look at it. It's like I know that because I've got that practice productivity thing in my head that I'm not a lazy person. So I'm gonna keep due out. And so I have control over that. How those resource is air being used and I have control over how it's being presented. And I look at the margins and I say, Well, if I can sell X number of pieces, that's a way better investment than putting it into a savings at 2%. But so what? What? I guess the real question is, do you trust yourself? That's it. Are you willing to bet on yourself? And my answer is generally yes,

Lynn:   46:12
yeah, and an action. And if you can't bet on yourself, what do you have to do to get yourself ready to be able to bet on yourself?

Tammy:   46:20
Oh, then that's that, huh? Yeah, There's a question. Because when people come to me and they say, Oh, how did you do that? Are you scared me? Nervous? I think to myself. Well, who are you going to trust More than you trust yourself. Like, to me, it seems like an obvious choice. But I I also look at it and say I've been self employed since I was 19 years old. So? So it to me. I don't know the difference, right? So  

Lynn:   46:50
and that is different for people who are working in big corporate job. I certainly can identify with that because there was this idea. Like, I need to prove myself to you so you can bet on me. And I need that promotion. And I was just bonus. And so it's an inside out versus outside in way, right. You're way we're describing and I've adapted myself to that is more inside out. It's like the strength is coming from within me versus what You're what I'm what I've experienced. Until I changed it in myself. Which is I'm gonna let you tell me how good I am. I'm gonna wait for somebody else to discover me and then give me the accolades and the perks that go with the status of the job and the power of the job and the bonuses and all that stuff.

Tammy:   47:43
Interesting, isn't it? Like if you look at the percentage of our people in our world that operate on that, I

Lynn:   47:51
think a lot of people do versus this thing. And I think it's the failure wall. I'm going back to you because I it's under afraid of making the kind of mistakes that could cause me to have to get myself out of the hole. So if I can get in a safe place with a safe salary and a safe job, and I actually think I think that the powers that be your very very aware of that, in fact there are also caught in it and it's a form of economics slavery. It's like I

Tammy:   48:19
literally thinking, if you go back pre industrial era, right where as a country, most of us not us but you know, our our ancestor ancestors were self sufficient. You bet you we were right. So you figured out how to feed yourself and you figured out how to create shelter and you created relationships that were mutually beneficial, you know? Hey, I have a cow. You have corn. Were you working out? It's like you bet on yourself with your community with your community

Lynn:   48:53
In Community. Three old barn raisings, right? Yes. Never could raise a barn by themselves, Right? Nobody was expected to. And every time one had to go up, everybody showed up right

Tammy:   49:03
in that. And And they're the industrialization I believe in Our world has changed that mindset. Yeah, you know, And the way we teach our Children, at least my kids I you know, I question the thought process of Is it best to stay the program? My son, I pulled him out of the schools because he was struggling. He didn't learn the same as everybody else. And so, you know, he's a very creative independent thinker, and I think we need to encourage people to really follow that inspiration. You know, it's like because that's who he was born. That's who he was

Lynn:   49:42
born to be. And Seth Godin did a lovely Ted talk called What a School For and he talks about the Industrial Revolution created the system of schooling that we have not to create smart people but to create people who will work in a factory. Robots that will be patient and sit still. And it's not unlike when we're teaching a horse Patients and, you know, let him be tied up in the stall for a couple hours. We tie kids into the right school to make them.  

Tammy:   50:11
I never liked those horses. By the way, Why would you the patient ones have? No, I always pick the one creative horses, right? Yeah, well, you know, the one I have now, I love him to death, but he has a little bit of a fire to him. The one your ride, Not the one I have. The one that is very patient. And then when I ride it, we'll get a wild here. Everyone's Yeah, because it's a challenge.  

Lynn:   50:34
But, man, it also matches your personality great. And I understand him. So it's fine you, But you understand him. And the other thing that I think is essential to this conversation about taking risk is just like in the horse world, where we have sort of the four levels of we make a request. And then if they don't, we have a back up into the back up, as one of my teachers calls it. Suggest as tell promise. Yeah, So you can do something big because you know, you've got options of how to get yourself through the problem, right? When things may not go the way you expect them to, you have taken risks That you had backups. It wasn't was very calculated. Yes, because you knew If this doesn't work, then I'm gonna do this. If this doesn't work, then this This is my next level. Like it was never of This is so all or nothing, but I will literally be on the street.

Tammy:   51:26
Well, I think that when I think about it, it's like I have unattached myself to a lot of physical things. Like, I don't have to have a giant house. I mean, I live in a nice house, but if I had to live in a one bedroom house for a period of time to make it work, I was willing to do that. Yeah, um, I'm not a big shopper. I don't You know, I'm not attached to a brand name clothing, and you know, So there are things like, I've I I want to say downsized or simplified to the point where it's like my life is affordable. So that's part of the calculated risk. You know, I didn't jump into a brand new art career with a $5000 month house payment.  But so it took me a little bit too kind of situate myself or is like I'm comfortable. I don't feel like I need for anything. And now I can take and risk a portion of what I have on this and and as you know, I also still dabble a little bit in the corporate world. I do some meeting producing. Yeah, you know, and it's it's great because it's the first quarter event I've been doing it for a long time. I work with a great team, and when it's over, it's over. So it's got, you know, a nice little window of opportunity that affords me the rest of the year. So, you know, and I I'm very protective of that relationship and that that job, because I understand it's, you know, importance it in giving me the freedom to do the other things. I It's like a bread and butter it is right,  

Lynn:   53:08
And I'm sure that some of the things like as I've watched you that idea of being able to be a great meeting producer and pulling together. So it is something. It's a big project, right? Beginning, middle and end. It's got a a start to finish. It's got an ongoing sustainability, to it. But I see that in everything you do. So when I walk into the legends the gallery where you have your work And for those of you who are listening that Are in  the trying equestrian radius, you should go check this out the way you market it, the way you present it. And when I say marketed, I don't mean like in the smarmy old fashioned smokestack way I mean in the like. Let me shine the light on this to show you what this is.

Tammy:   53:56
And I like to do it in a context that isn't, look at me. Look at my work.  I would much rather have people discover the work doing something that they already enjoy. So we have hosted events that are, you know, around good food and music and social engagement, and the art is there. It's part of the environment, but it's not. I've really uncomfortable in the spotlight, Believe it or not, I just like I'd rather have somebody go. Oh, well, I didn't expect that. And then I'm that I'm more willing to step up and answer the questionsyou know so and also have at the gallery. For me, it's more comfortable to be surrounded with other artists as well.  and so this past year I start bringing in other folks from around the country and exhibiting their work, and that's a conference on. It's like, um, I don't have all the answers and I recognize that, you know, not everybody is gonna like what I do right. But I'd like Thio, you know, So so the diversity of the work that's in there, I think, is a big deal.  

Lynn:   55:09
Well, it's interesting because I attribute that to some of your success as well, and I think a lot of times there's an old saying that says there's no limit to where you can go. If you don't care who gets credit for the work, correct

Tammy:   55:22
that I would I would sign on that all day in that he can I can I take that?

Lynn:   55:28
It's It's I think it's 10 gentle. It maybe the same is what you're saying. And a lot of times I know, I know. For myself, it happened. I know it happens to people all the time in like, let's say they're on a team at work and there's five of them and one of them's gonna get be the new team leader, not the others. And they start getting a little cut throat. They don't help each other anymore, right? Right, And so they're surrounded by other people's work, like your art. But instead of being collaborative about it, it's competitive and it can actually even get to be cut throat.

Tammy:   56:04
I can see where that would be for me. I think because of my own experience, I've always been the boss. I hate to say, you know, like I've owned my own company since I was 19 years old and so what I recognize is it's not fun. It's, you know, there's a relationships and friendships that happened in a corporate environment. If you're the boss, you're typically not a part of them. Your you know when there's hard decisions to be made you're the one making them. You know that you're not gonna be popular, so it's been very lonely way it. It's a It's a lonely way of coming through The corporate world is always being at the top or always being the decision maker. So for me, I think one of things I really enjoy and it's funny that you now that you mention it, I'm like, it's part of why I really like being on the other side of that wall. Yeah, I don't want to be the leader anymore. I don't want to tell people what to do. I don't want to be responsible for everybody's, you know, happiness or unhappiness whichever way that falls, you know, I'm happy to help somebody come along, but I'm also not going to do the work for you. So it's, you know, provide the space, create the platform, give somebody a leg up, great, be in charge of all of it. No, really want it? Why don't aspire to that?  

Lynn:   57:28
Well, in a way, that's a form of leadership to me to right, because you're not taking care of everybody, you're giving them an opportunity to shine and that that loneliness, I think, is something that a lot of people, I didn't understand this when I was coming up in the corporate world was how lonely the people who are sitting in those high level positions are. Most of the clients I work with now are at the C level. Many of them are CEOs. It is the most lonely position on the planet. I I call it X marks the spot because everybody else has a peer But the CEO you got like, When you're this, it's

Tammy:   58:04
hard to take it home. You can't take it home because if your spouse Oh, no, I can't relate to that, you know? So it's just a very

Lynn:   58:14
there's not many people, like the smart people will surround themselves with groups with other people. You know, other organizations. That's a huge way. Obviously they have a coach like me To be, a sounding border thinking partner. But the point is, I don't think a lot of times when we're in those roles where were aspiring to get to the top, we don't know how lonely we're gonna be when we get there, and we're gonna miss having the people beside us that we could actually help and let them help us. Like that generosity that given take that, you know, caring for each other towards a common goal is actually a really priceless part of the human condition I think

Tammy:   58:50
it really And I think I've had more of that in the last past the last three years that I've had, probably in the 30 years prior to that. And I think it's one of the things that I value the most and trying to maintain that because corporate leadership is like a disease, you keep getting sucked back in to things you know on. So for me, in your capable, capable people want you to do it. Yeah. So Boundaries is a big deal for me in this, this part of my life, it's like and we had a long conversation a couple weeks ago about, you know, just because you can doesn't mean you should exactly,  So I think for me, you go back to that balance thing. It's like it would be easy to overload myself with projects and tasks and responsibilities, and I would be really unhappy. And so I've become very conscious about where those boundaries are and what I say yes to and yeah, why? I'm saying yes to those things and, you know, and I'm still working on it because every once in a while I get that, you know, the adrenaline of that I could do that. We owe you and I share. Then I forecasted out a little bit, and I go, Yeah, no. Four months from now, I'm gonna be miserable, and I will have nobody to blame. I won't be able to blame you. I won't be, You know, nobody but myself. And what? Yeah, I'm not doing that. But

Lynn:   1:0:15
I was actually, that's what That's a great deal of wisdom. But I understand that because it's that Do you know your Myers Briggs? I don't know if we've ever talked about

Tammy:   1:0:23
it. I don't think I know I've never, never done it.

Lynn:   1:0:25
I would I would bet that you're something along the lines of ENTP like I am, because

Tammy:   1:0:30
there's a Myers Briggs TJ in T. Mimi was an f. J. You could do that. Would I think that's what it is.

Lynn:   1:0:39
And there's different prayers and I'll have to go look up what the one for E. J is Ah, ENTP, which is the prayer is Look, there's a bird and anybody that has ever actually had lunch with me or in a place where there's a window, we'll say, Well, yeah, she says that all the time, like literally. Look, there's a bird. It's gonna be an interesting bird. I don't just look crows,

Tammy:   1:0:58
not all birds, Okay,

Lynn:   1:0:59
but if it's an ankle or something like that, I have more than what's interrupted a meeting because that's my distractibility. And it's that so that E N is that sort of person that says, Oh, I see possibilities. I could go do that. I could make this happen. I can And we I need somebody always next to me to contain it and remind me, or I have to remind myself, Don't say yes to everything. Which is right, why I wrote the book about the delegation. No, because when I actually began to say no, it was so transformative for me. It was like, this is the biggest, best move of all. and the first time I was able to say no and not die, because if you? Yeah. I mean, the funny thing about survival mode. I don't think I don't think we're taught this and we should be taught this. It's when you feel survival mode It's like a physical sensation. You're hard wiring of your brain is telling you you're gonna die. It's like the flight, the fight flight or freeze. It is exactly that. And so if your brain is telling you that, how are you supposed to overcome it? Right, Right, right. And so we have to train ourselves to realize just because my brain is screaming, it doesn't mean it's gonna kill me. Now there are those moments where it will, and

Tammy:   1:2:09
so that must be what happens with people who are rest risk adverse. I think it is. It's like the the thought of it paralyzes you. Yeah, he's like so then which I'm not afflicted with. But it must be very similar to you know, where it's like. I can't because

Lynn:   1:2:27
I can't because that it feels and and I don't think we can ever calibrate what each other are feeling like physical ness of it. I know what I have noticed is we do a lot of things to not feel it. So I think that's why so many anti depressants are out there right now because people don't want to feel. I think it's like that because my solution was always toe work more well. And that's what way to war outbreak, sex, shopping, You know, some kind of physical eating is a big one. , I

Tammy:   1:3:03
mean, I like to eat, but that is it might buy the , businesses, busyness Drowsiness is a very big Medicaid and they don't have toe. And then you can

Lynn:   1:3:11
definitely feel worthy because you did something productive and so I can go to sleep tonight because, like a twofer, I must be a good

Tammy:   1:3:17
pipe too tired, and I can have me on the back. I'm a good person looking at what I've done,

Lynn:   1:3:22
right, so that I think it's so useful to have these conversations, too, because I know people identify with this is how do you get yourself out of that? Thinking goes back to the self afflicted. It is your call. I mean, you can take responsibility for your

Tammy:   1:3:39
thought, big reader. Yeah, so for me, how I got myself out of it is I have done a lot of reading and understanding, At least my belief from what I now understand is that that your body is an energy system. And so how you utilize your energy has a direct impact on all kinds of things. You know, your your state of mind, your health and well being. So

Lynn:   1:4:08
Oh, no doubt I I actually have found when I get run down, I lose a lot of my extra, Like I think of it as my patting my tolerance level goes down, I'm gonna be shorter with people or take what they're saying more personally. But if I'm If I'm recovered and sleeping well and eating well and hydrated and you know that energy system is full, I can I can handle a lot, right? So, yeah, I really agree with you about I mean, there's no agreeing scientific that body is an energy system,

Tammy:   1:4:40
right? But why are we not talking? Not taught? It will thank you. why  Is that not part of like your health and well being class in in high school?

Lynn:   1:4:49
It should be the most fundamental  

Tammy:   1:4:52
right, because I think that when you have an understanding of what's going on with your own, You know your own bodies. Yes, terms that. Then you can start working to manage those. So I've

Lynn:   1:5:04
actually taking it down to be this simple, we gather energy, we deploy energy, right? And when I was, you know, I'm I'm a water skier. And the whole point of going around the buoys is you, You, you know, cut behind the boat, turn around a buoy cut behind the boat turned around a buoy back in before six times. Well, I was really stuck when you and I was down with Seth Stisher at his place in Charleston or John's Island, It's called OZ. And he was he was trying to get me to, like, go faster. And I felt all of a sudden he put it in such a way. I was like, Oh, on this side of the wake, I gather energy. And then I ride that energy on the other side. So it's like Gather deploy, right? He's like, I've never heard it put that way. But that's exactly what did

Tammy:   1:5:52
you do that with Jan is what I

Lynn:   1:5:55
find interesting, though, is okay. So that knowledge I got years ago I ski 1000 literally over 1000 times a year.  you know, going on doing that course I still have to remember it. because I can't just cause I

Tammy:   1:6:08
knew it, I can apply it World I like this last year. It's not may be different than water skiing, but I think it's the same. I launched an artist in residence program. Yeah, right. And and it was the first time I've never done it. And my thought process was I have not spent a lot of time around super creative peop people and I and I gain energy and, inspiration when I get to talking to other artists, wouldn't it be cool if I could share my studio space? And so, you know, I worked with the venue and we started launched a program. And so last year, starting in April, we had a guest artist on property that changed every 2 to 4 weeks. So I think I had 10 different artists and they stayed in,  an apartment on my property and we had, you know, meals together, and we work together, and at the end of the year, I had to stop  and say, OK, how much are you gaining versus how much are you putting out? And and although I can't say, there was no negative to the program but the energy leak for me where  was that I wasn't spending nearly as much time in my studio working on my own work. I was facilitating somebody else, and I was doing laundry and changing sheets and making sure there was meals provided and, you know, giving people the lay of the land. Oh, here's you know, the bathroom's over here and which is all fine. But when you're doing that on a continuum, it has to come from somewhere, right? And so I So I did it for the whole year. And at that this December, I stepped back, and I'm like the energy loss is too big to continue doing it because I'm not. I have a different goal in the goal is I really want to explore my own work at a deeper level, less driven by commercial outcomes and more like, inwardly motivated. But you can't do that if you're constantly looking at the bird out the window, or distracted by, you know, whatever. And so I and I haven't quite come I don't want to completely do away with the residency program, but I've got to figure out a way to manage it, Where I don't lose as much of my creative energy as I did this past year.  

Lynn:   1:8:45
That's great. I mean, that's resource allocation 101, right. With your energy instead of money, right? Yep. So

Tammy:   1:8:53
so And I don't have the solution yet. And so because there's value to all of it, Yeah, but and I think it would depend. And I go back and forth with this a lot. You know, I could make all the whole career out of just facilitating workshops and, hosting artists and things like that. There's enough roi if you planned it right to do that. But I'm not passionate about that. That was your corporate, That's that. Yeah. So it's like I take a step back from it, you know, but you're always kind of one foot in looking back over the wall, you know? Well, maybe

Lynn:   1:9:28
so well, And it's a little bit more of a sure moneymaker, too, because the creative arts, those are lumpy sales to say the least, right?

Tammy:   1:9:37
But I'm I'm not. It's just so is gonna sound weird to say I'm not motivated by the money nearly as much. And I think that that is, I know it. It's a crazy backwards key to success. It's like it's not what drives me,  

Lynn:   1:9:56
which is why it works,

Tammy:   1:9:58
which is why it works. Yeah, which has explained that to somebody that, well, it's and that, but I do. I really do believe it.  

Lynn:   1:10:04
It's the same thing that it's a struggle, for example, to be in a position where you need to prove yourself. But to be in a proving mindset will ruin it, Right? Right. It absolutely every athlete that has ever performed understood this dilemma, that they know they're playing in front of a large crowd. But as soon as their brain knows they're playing in front of a large crowd over like they have to be in the moment in the zone with the event. I think it's true and everything we do right, and it's like this. It's like this dilemma. No, it's not. It's not a dilemma its  a paradox and right

Tammy:   1:10:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, The more I think about it, the more and I have a lot of artists. Friends now are like, Well, how did you do that? And, I don't really know the answer to it, but I do think that the secret is you have got to let go and not worry so much about. It's like that leap. You know, you have to trust that it's going to work out, and,, and you also have to recognize when it's not and change Course. here's a classic for you. Okay, you know, I got a good one. So the World Games, the equestrian World games are coming up and I've got my corporate mind on, and I'm going to do a painting for each discipline kind of an illustration. They're eight disciplines, and I'm going to do a sculpture for each discipline for in preparation. And there was supposed to be on oh, a half a 1,000,000 people here. That's what they said. So you do the math 1000 people are coming through 500,000 people. I only need 1% of those. That's excellent. People climb the corporate thinking, Yeah, you run the spreadsheet and I'm like, I can't possibly paint enough to to you know, participate in this. So what I'm going to do is I'm gonna paint one original, and then I'm going to do Prints of that and put them in this pretty little box as a collection set. Yes, right. I remember the color. Remember, it's the disciplines. There's a lot of them available. If you would like to have go to my website. Yeah, like Oh, my God. I am going to tell you right now that I sold. Wait for it. I do a dark drumroll. If I doubt, I could get away with it. One copy. Did you really?   

Lynn:   1:12:17
That was the best idea. I was this brilliant show. I can't believe you thought of that. That's amazing. What a great way to scale.

Tammy:   1:12:25
I want to thank right now. The nice gentleman who was the fat from New Zealand for purchasing the one copy, though household. I know I've sold some sense.  

Lynn:   1:12:35
, but during the gay. But during that we had a hurricane. We hadcrazy heat due to have the crowds. I think there was some location issues because I was behind any 250000 people, maybe have like, at best of what was coming. And by the way, that count those people twice. Right? And I can't that

Tammy:   1:12:54
there were a few people, but I should have sold more than one. I made 100 copies of these , you know? So I think I had animal $7000 into printing. And so when So, of course. You know, you adjust the pricing. Yeah, and and then I wait, Then we decided, Well, maybe they're not selling because not everybody is interested in every discipline. So So so Then we took a dozen of the boxes and we opened up and split them up in her size. You could buy just a massage printer. Just the jumping print. You know, we sold a few of those, But like to this day, I cannot tell you why that didn't work. Because in my mind, it still makes perfect sense. It really does. It does it to me. So that my point when I told you the story was, when you finally accept that it's not working, you need to stop and adjust. Oh, and there's a time to cut your s o. Now what happens is I probably have. I think I have less than 50 of the 100. Yeah, collectors sets left. So now if you buy a bronze, you get a box of collector Edition that actually a brilliant way to do well. So, yes, it's a value. Add, Yeah, thrown out swag or whatever. So it makes me feel better than burning them or what? Well, you wallpapering a bathroom or six so they could be walking. Well, Piper's and bathroom they were, but

Lynn:   1:14:24
they were beautiful paintings. I thought it was a brilliant idea myself, So I I didn't realize it was that.

Tammy:   1:14:31
It was like, You know, it's It's funny to me when if you're going to fail, fail big, you know, that's what it felt like. It was like, I think it would have been worse if I does sold none, but extra actually funnier to say that one. I know what you know what? I know exactly who it went T o got his picture. The whole nine yards. Oh, yeah, it's was classic. I love it. I love epic failure, but, you

Lynn:   1:14:58
know, I think every good thing comes from that. Like that failure probably has led to dozens of success is for you.

Tammy:   1:15:05
You know there, even in pieces like it works in pieces we've used. I've used pieces to like some of the sets for auction and you know, it's crazy. They sell great at auction, make a donation to the Para dressage team, or there was a couple of other, nonprofits around. He have that. I've given boxes away and shoot. They've sold him for 6 $700 a box. Now I couldn't give you give him away. But when it's the auction item Oh, in out time, I can tell years another thing that just happened. One of the prints that was in the box, it's, showed up on social media the other day.  and a friend of mine from Greenville tagged me in this post that she saw. So it's like sometimes when you think it's a failure, it's like there's a piece that got sold. I don't know who it was. It was a gift to somebody who had a tax store in Ohio, you and they posted and literally got this a 2018 weg, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah tagged, you know. So it's like with the social media world that we live in today, and you can't measure things in the now, you know, it's like it might come back three years from now. You might see something show up that you never expected. So it's never really a failure. I think that was your point, right? You just gotta be patient enough to wait it out.  

Lynn:   1:16:36
And you have to like it may only be a learning it may not ever be income, right, but but that but the learning leads to other things.

Tammy:   1:16:44
I have a lot of learning in my bag. I think

Lynn:   1:16:47
that's I call the other side of the failure wall. The learning side. Right? I say you're you're locked or learning, right? Okay. And locked is on the side of the failure wall. That's you're still proving you're in survival mode. Okay, You're afraid to cross the wall that's locked. I have lived a lot of my life that way on the other side of the walls, learning side and learning is very different. Yeah, and I don't mean like, the kind of learning that says Yeah, yeah, yeah, Just tell me what to do so I can go do it. I mean, the kind that light goes, In,

Tammy:   1:17:15
the kind where you you lived through it and you look back and start connecting the dots and go Oh, I get it.

Lynn:   1:17:22
No. Yeah, And I'm gonna change the way I do something because of it, right?

Tammy:   1:17:26
I think that I That is how I function most of the time. It was like relationships. You know, we hate it when relationships fail, but I think that if you don't burn bridges and you're able to look back and see and own all the parts of it yours, there's others. You know, there's a lot of learning that goes on there., so for me. That's better. I've had a lot of that. I learned a lot, Yeah, well, and I think if I could apply that to the artwork, that's your your commentary earlier about throwing away the watercolor. One of my big sticking points when I first started was the blank canvas. And I know a lot of artists that struggle with it. It's like you walk up and you're free to make your first mark. You don't Oh, my gosh. It's like, don't make that mistake Oh, my gosh, What is that? What color? Where am I doing? White. What am I even doing? You know, So I got around that by adopting a technique where I just picked a color palette 3-4 colors, put it up there with the big swash and sprayed it down. You know, it's like I love that look, the dripping water, the dragon watercolor technique. But that was me managing self doubt. That's what that was. That was like, if I if I could just get past the white canvas, I know I can fix almost anything, right? So I'll just get screwed up and then and that will be My starting point is screwed up. It had all working on their pull out the fit, right? Exactly. Then I'm the rescuer. Well, they think they own it, though. But, you

Lynn:   1:19:02
know, I think that I can't tell you how many people have that blank canvas, whether it's starting a memo to the boss or it's starting a new book or it's riding right, you know, or it's that ball of clay on my pottery, wheel or that blank piece of paper, and I actually use a very similar technique. I don't know if we've talked about that much, but I call it creating a lot of starts and I'll do the same thing with watercolor. Put down a bunch of different colors. I'll do different things, like I'll drip them around. Or sometimes I'll I actually had a teacher. I've never done this because it's not cold enough enough here, but she would freeze hers. Oh, and then we work with the icicle look that came out of it because it does create the crystal. Mom used to do it with salt. Yes, and I've done it. In fact, if you look at that painting over there, that's got some of the out of things like that in there. So, yeah, throwing things and it and then I'm going to pull out.What's good, I think, is a really good

Tammy:   1:19:54
technique. Good analogy for life. I'm gonna throw up. I've been through all that in there and just pull out what's good, you know, Here's the thing

Lynn:   1:20:01
about life. Nobody gets a blank canvas. So our fundamental skill isn't it to take whatever's in front of us and make the best of it We can write, you know We were just coming in the new year right now while we're interviewing here and a lot of people treat the new Year's like a new decade and a new Yeah, a new year in a new decade and everything's different. It's not, You know, you live where you live, you're in the job, you're on the job, you've got the car, you have the kids, the relationship, like you don't have a blank canvas. Now you do have the opportunity to choose differently on every in every aspect every day. But I don't think we have a blank canvas.  

Tammy:   1:20:35
Yeah, why are we waiting till January 1st to do that way? But every day that was the point of my letter is all right. I stole that

Lynn:   1:20:41
at any given moment. No. One. I sent that out This year. I was actually more sarcastic than usual because it's like, you know, let's stop with the like, making it New Year's Eve time and making a resolution. It's more like an intention to just change something and just do it and do it now,  Don't wait for the right, you know, I

Tammy:   1:20:58
didn't tell till next year, said 2021. Right past that point.  

Lynn:   1:21:03
It's January 30th. This is what all the resolution, the gym's, will be empty again. February 15th. This is when it's all over. So forget it. I could just start over That's just the way we let ourselves off the hook, right? So I actually think this method of saying I'm going to start from what I've got is life That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm

Tammy:   1:21:24
getting comfortable with that. You have the skill set? Yes. To I don't want to say fix, but it may be, is fixed, but might make a better. Better? Better

Lynn:   1:21:37
is my theme. If there's ever a word, if somebody talks to me about perfection, the word I would substitute is better. Yeah, because,  perfection, you know, You know Bruce Anderson, and he's the one of the podcast that we have already out there that people can go listen to. He talks a lot about the mindset that we get with perfection, and he even go so far as to say perfection is death. And when he first said that I thought it was Dumb than I realized Well, okay. It is true that perfection is the end right because if it is perfect, it cannot be any better. Right? So you're done

Tammy:   1:22:14
now? So Here's ah one them the mentors. My sculpture mentor. I had asked him how do  I know when I'm done and and he is, I love his response. His response was, You're done. When you're no longer making it better, you're just making it different. Oh, that's a great It's not great. It's a great it's

Lynn:   1:22:38
in a lot of times that makes it worse. I've had that happen. Where it's all right, I've taken my art. If you're trying to make it better or trying to make it perfect and go the other way, right? You know, Clay collapses, right?

Tammy:   1:22:48
Yeah. So if you're just making it different or if you're making it worse, you you know? So you're done finding that balance? I don't know if it's bounce, but finding that point where you can look at your art work, go comfortable with where it's at., yeah, I literally varnished , commission today, which was probably the biggest struggle that I've had to date.  because of my perfectionism, you know? And it was a little boy and his horse and you know, typically, I just do the horses, and it's not that I'm incapable of doing people, But there's a whole different set of expectations when you're painting somebody's child.  

Lynn:   1:23:28
Don't I know it?  

Tammy:   1:23:30
And so, you know, I struggled. I bet and that this is no exaggeration. I bet I painted that poor kid's face 16 times and I probably would have to. It was I was so frustrated with it that at one point I started a whole new canvas and started over and they got that helped, you know, because I learned something from the first, you know, and I approached it differently the second time. I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna do this differently, because now I know you know why I'm not happy with it. But I still struggled, and I finally, just before Christmas, I sent the picture to the client and and I'm, like, nervous cause. Last thing I want to know is that she doesn't like it because I don't want to do it over. I think I've already invested the I've reached the point that I'm willing to give her her money back, all of it, just to not have to do it again. I have done commissions, and I'm just like, cringing. And that's probably this conference. It's probably not a bad painting, but now I've lived with it and my own self doubt for several months. And,  and and I just needed to be done. So I looked at it today as that, putting them the varnish. And I thought to myself at this point, I wouldn't make it better. I would just make it different. I'm done, You're done. Let's go put the varnish on And and and she loved it. She was like, I love it and she So I've

Lynn:   1:24:53
done several Pip commissions. One had people in it, but not with a face. And I've done the pets are tough, especially if I never knew the pet right. So there's that moment I'm holding my breath and I sent him the picture and it's like, Oh, please tell me you know

Tammy:   1:25:08
that My God, mine was the kid, the picture ahead of the young man. They had like five or six pictures, and they range from the age of nine to probably 12. So the amount of change and no picture looked the same. Different haircuts different lighting, Different, different, everything. So I'm like, I'm not sure which kid I'm painting. Wow. I want to know the sculptor friend. He goes, Yeah. I was offered a commission once to pay churches sculpt Michael Jackson. He's like it. I wasn't sure which version, so he turned it down. I like, Yeah, sort of like that. Really? What you doing here, eh? I don't know that you're ever gonna get that right, because I'm not sure. So you just have to know when to

Lynn:   1:25:47
quit, so yeah, And when you're done when you're done like we are finished. So So, um, one of the questions we have been going for a while, so I want to kind of start thinking about wrapping this up. But one of the questions I want to ask you is for now, as I've watched you be a learner and a grower like grow, we're not like a grower, but somebody

Tammy:   1:26:07
got it out there.

Lynn:   1:26:10
What is your growing edge right now? Like what isn't What's in front of you that you're saying this is where I'm gonna go put my energy into my betterment and I call it the froth. You know, the part where I don't really know how to do this, but I'm gonna work my way through it.

Tammy:   1:26:26
I this I like. I'm usually not fear driven. But one of my biggest fears is to completely turn inward and not have the, when people by your work or you're showing, then that's an acknowledgment of you're doing something right or doing well. It's validation validation for me. Like I would love to take 2020 and completely turn inside and just produce whatever whatever is in my head or in my calling to be putting going to be produced. And I don't know what that is because I've never completely shut off the corporate side of things.  So this is gonna be an interesting year. I have made a commitment to myself. I am taking a two week sculptor workshop in Las Vegas from one of the best instructors I've ever seen. He doe, he teaches, plastic surgeons as well as animators. , so this human time human anatomy on so for me, in order to really express some of the things that I have in my head, I need To have a good grasp of the human form. And, it's it's probably the most intimidating thing I can think to Do. You know, because you see, I look at other people's work and I'm like, Whoa, we all know what a hand looks like. What's that? When it's wrong, it's wrong, doesn't work, it doesn't work. And so and there's that perfectionism thing, and so that's what I'm gonna do this year. I am going to I'll still have the gallery and I'll still have a working studio. But my work is going to be much more personal this year unless driven by the commercial side of things so good for you. And then in 2021 you May, I may resort back to printing things that s o that's that is that's a

Lynn:   1:28:39
journey. And you know what's interesting Immediately when you said I'm not fear driven, but I'm gonna turn inward. I think a lot of us don't turn inward right, because we don't know what we're gonna want to see what's in there. It's fine what's there. And I think that some of our work is discovering we can handle what's ever there, right,

Tammy:   1:28:58
and you need quiet to do that and you need So you know what? My and the judge, it didn't just start this, but I I walk with my dogs almost every day as a matter fact when I don't they're really unhappy with me. But so there's a lot of that. There's a lot of quiet in my life right now. There's not I don't watch TV, you know, I've even stopped reading because I think that even that,  clutters Oh, yeah, it close. So, you know, Simon, Look, I'm kind of in a quiet space right now, and oh, that's not used to it. It's a little different,

Lynn:   1:29:33
so I will be really looking forward to seeing how that journey works out.

Tammy:   1:29:38
I will give you a sneak preview on, and then we'll decide whether or not it's worthy around

Lynn:   1:29:43
to here. We can talk at the end of the year about what that journey has been like. Sounds good. I would bet that his people are listening. They may be thinking that'd be really nice for me. Your own Oh, hell, no. I'm never going there or something in between. Um, I believe we have two fundamental needs attachment and self expression, and the attachment piece is huge. Research is that if you have a good social life, specially end of life, you're like chances of dying are so much lower, right? Like it's that the biggest predictor of, ah, long life quality of your relationships. So obviously attachment is a big thing, but self expression almost always will take a back seat to attachment. I've read that, and it's interesting because attached are self expression is the spark that makes us special. Like if you look at the dichotomy of being a human is living in a group versus living as an individual, nobody can live either way. 100%. I think we cost ourselves if we don't hit that balance, right but a lot of times expression goes out the window if it involves cutting the people out of your life,

Tammy:   1:30:54
and I sometimes I think you have to be more selective on attachments so that you can get enough space for the self expression. It's almost like you. You you can choose who you have to choose, who you let in to that circle for,

Lynn:   1:31:12
well, attachments so tied to survival mode that we don't realize we have that choice. Yeah. And you just described the way you can choose. Right? Great. So that's 2020 for me. Nice. So tell people how to find you.

Tammy:   1:31:27
Well, if you happen to be traveling through, tryon North Carolina, stop in a ashville. Yeah. Charlotte, Western North Carolina here

Lynn:   1:31:38
in that area, like lure. You know, if you're in that radius, you need to get

Tammy:   1:31:42
yourself. So the trying to international equestrian Center. So I'll have a working studio in the gallery. Is there fan past? were generally there every day, but monday She's weird, but that's we don't show horses on Monday. It is the off day there, where you can find me at Tammytappanart.com.

Lynn:   1:32:02
Okay. And, well, hell, all these details show notes happened dot com. And how about your instagram,  

Tammy:   1:32:09
Tammy_Tappan_Art. Yeah. Yeah, and that's a good place for your visual work that yet that's been kind of most of my I spend most of my social media energy in the instagram world because I don't have to say as much. Yeah, it Yeah, I'm or,

Lynn:   1:32:30
in a word, space so linked in and Facebook or were right more my time. But that is so wonderful. I cannot thank you enough for sitting down, and I'm and I'm super happy that neither one of us, we both have a little cold. And I don't think we sniffle too much,

Tammy:   1:32:43
you know? So I didn't hack and cough into your speaker or your microphone. Yeah.

Lynn:   1:32:48
So anyway, thanks again. Absolutely. We'll look forward around two.

Lynn:   1:32:52
Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now, what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less off. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast. And, of course, subscribe and write it on the different APS that you're using. Because that's how others will find it. Now I hope you go and do something very fun today